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WhiteDog wrote:
"A Nephilim Jetfighter is a variant attack aircraft used exclusively by the Space Marines of the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven Successor Chapters. The Nephilim's primary role is as an atmospheric interceptor, helping to keep the skies clear over the field of battle, protecting their brethren on the ground from the threat of an aerial attack."
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Nephilim_Jetfighter

Ah, yes, that's why it has rules that... don't have anything to do with that. The Nephilim's rules benefit it's role as a ground attack craft. So, it's rules need to reflect that.

The Nephilim is an INTERCEPTOR, like the stormhawk it is a air-to-air gunship at first while the Dark Talon is a air-to-ground. They don't have the same guns, but they have the same role.

Take that up with the game designers then - there are no anti-air features on the Nephilim, but there is the Strafing Run rule.

Dark Taon with "single height powered cannon" lol ... It's a warp gun that create a crack, or "rift" into reality.

Yes. A high powered cannon. The details aren't exactly important, it's a main cannon that deals massive damage.

It's an air to ground fighter, similarly to the stormtalon.

But that's where the similarities end - it's a bomber, it's weaponry is vastly different in terms of viable combat range (the Stormtalon's weapons are all consistently of a medium-high strength range, whereas the Dark Talon has a massive disparity between the massed small arms fire of the Hurricane Bolters and and the massive single area damage of the Rift Cannon - as well as the bombs!)

One is a bomber, the other is the gunship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

They have the same chassis. There's no more of a "light/heavy" difference than the difference between Predator turrets, or Razorback turrets.

do you know the hunter and the stalker don't have the same gun ?

Yeah, they don't have the same guns. Just like how Predator Executioners and Predator Destructors don't have the same guns, but fill the same combat role of a medium battle tank.

Hunters and Stalkers fill the same role - static AA tank. One goes about it with single target precision, the other goes about it with massed firepower, but both have the same core role.

There's more similarity between those two than there is between any two of the four aircraft mentioned above.

Thinking this way makes plague marines indentical to 1ksons, both are troops, tough etc.

Plague Marines carry plague weaponry that targets toughness, and carry a bevy of melee weapons. Rubricae carry armour piercing weaponry, and have psychic capabilities. Nowhere near the same.

In fact why not roll in all csm in to one entry.

You clearly haven't been reading my actual comments.

I'm the one IN FAVOUR of having "redundant" things of overlap. Hunters and Stalkers might have the same role, but they don't need to be merged. However, WhiteDog here seems to think that if there's a slight bit of overlap, then the unit just gets deleted.

 harlokin wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...

We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.

What a load of horsegak. The other armies are small because the Space Marines get an overwhelming share of the relseases, fiction, and publicity. Don't kid yourself that you are doing Xenos players a favour.

Actually my biggest army is Tau. But I'm sorry, I stand for what I said. Space Marines weren't more relevant back in the day than imperial guard, orks, eldar or even squats. Space Marines were designed on the back of the popularity of Chaos Warriors from Fantasy. No, no matter how much resources GW puts into other armies. Theres a reason in most MMORPG most players play normal humans. Or cute things like Mi'qote in FF or Elves. Space Marines are the most popular because they are designed to be the most popular. Stop this fantasy where big corporations can make things work just because they put money behind it. Look at cocacola or windows. Marketing is always built on the back of social trends and what most people likes.

Dark Eldar or Necron would have never made warhammer as big as it is even if GW had put the same resources on them as they did on Space Marines because they are designed for a more niche audience. An audience that has his value, because they add value to the whole package. But space marine players are the backbone of GW economy , specially in the 1995-2015 period.

I'm on the fence and the proof in the pudding will be in execution.

If my DA and DW get access to every single marine dataslate in barebones codex, then I'm totally not impressed. I hope they have a plan to place restrictions on certain units.

I will also need to see how long the wait is between generic and supplement to get access to unique units (otherwise I'll continue to use old dex and PA in that interim).

Biggest concern is Deathwatch...it looks as if GW just have given up on them now, since they will likely just have access to everything (unless my first point sticks)

I do feel that this is exactly the time and place where the new codex should have gone Primaris only. People could have used old SM codex for old marines, and the new dex would be Primaris only with units available to everyone. Otherwise, Deathwatch Thunderfire cannons and centurions?

I'm really going to be interested how they implement Deathwatch kill teams in the new supplement (I'm going to be assume that kill teams will be the only place you get access to SIA, which would make sense and I'd be totally on board with).

Hey all, there's a lot of reports and angry posting in this thread, if the tone of the conversation can be taken down, it would help the discussion tremendously.

For my part, I've always advocated for most Marine stuff to be consolidated into one book. Marines share the overwhelmingly vast majority of the same stats, wargear, lore, units, weapons, etc across the various different flavors of Marines, and even many of the "unique" units are predicated on pretty trivial differences that often are less minor many units experience between edition changes or are just simple wargear/special rule swaps. A lot of the stuff people gnash teeth over is stuff that often doesn't survive a new codex or edition change either way, or that ultimately has little/no meaningful effect on or reflection in gameplay but makes people feel like they've got something unique to play with when listbuilding. Having a single main book helps consolidate a lot of stuff and get everything working from the same basic starting point and avoids consistency issues across SM armies.

However, given the results of the Space Marine supplements of last year, and GW's insistence on seemingly going out of their way to intentionally bungle the execution of stuff like this, I'm going to be extremely cautious about any optimism. This is a potentially positive move, I really think having a dozen different totally distinct SM codex books is seriously detrimental to both design and play with regards to 40k, but we'll see how well GW actually manages it.

 Galas wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Galas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...

We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.

What a load of horsegak. The other armies are small because the Space Marines get an overwhelming share of the relseases, fiction, and publicity. Don't kid yourself that you are doing Xenos players a favour.

Actually my biggest army is Tau. But I'm sorry, I stand for what I said. Space Marines weren't more relevant back in the day than imperial guard, orks, eldar or even squats. Space Marines were designed on the back of the popularity of Chaos Warriors from Fantasy. No, no matter how much resources GW puts into other armies. Theres a reason in most MMORPG most players play normal humans. Or cute things like Mi'qote in FF or Elves. Space Marines are the most popular because they are designed to be the most popular. Stop this fantasy where big corporations can make things work just because they put money behind it. Look at cocacola or windows. Marketing is always built on the back of social trends and what most people likes.

Dark Eldar or Necron would have never made warhammer as big as it is even if GW had put the same resources on them as they did on Space Marines because they are designed for a more niche audience. An audience that has his value, because they add value to the whole package. But space marine players are the backbone of GW economy , specially in the 1995-2015 period.

Yes I'm sure the reason other armies aren't as popular is nothing to do with the systemic neglect and the fact that many of their sprues are older than me. The effort put into 5 different Primaris Lt's could not have been better spent on anything else.

I'm not saying that other armies shouldnt receive better support. What I'm saying is that it is a lie to assume that other armies would have had the same popularty as space marines with the same support,.

 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.

Only if "people" is defined as "annoying online-only vocal minority"...

Good change. As a Thousand Sons player primarily I'd also be happy being combined with CSM.

Massively overdue

This was a logical and foreseen step as soon as GW had made every chapter into a snowflake chapter.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.

Only if "people" is defined as "annoying online-only vocal minority"...

People can't have it both ways.

There were complaints about needing "too many sources" to build an army while waiting for updated books.
There were complaints about Marines getting "too much attention" whenever these other books got updated--even when it was just copy/pasting bits from the core book into the other books.
There were complaints about how "buffing X made Y broken, but Y was okay with everyone else!".

Now they take steps to alleviate those problems and it's not a good thing? It was "an annoying online-only vocal minority"?

 Galas wrote:
I'm not saying that other armies shouldnt receive better support. What I'm saying is that it is a lie to assume that other armies would have had the same popularty as space marines with the same support,.

Frankly, I would be happy if my faction were "subsidised by by the Marine players". If the role of the Xenos is to be a lesser option with substandard rules and product support, then we should pay less for taking part.

Spoletta wrote:
This was a logical and foreseen step as soon as GW had made every chapter into a snowflake chapter.

It's hardly the only step they could have taken though is it?

The easiest one for GW (AKA the one with least effort) but let's not pretend it's the only option.

As a Dark Angel player since 1999 I have to say that I love this change.

Roll 'em up!

Good for consolidation. I've been saying it's been overdue for a LONG time.

HOWEVER GW took the GW route. Instead of just selecting a few Strats or units to put in the codex, we instead get $upplements again.

Also think Deathwatch should be rolled into a general Inquisition codex but we should've seen this one coming based on the fact Preferred Enemy was an available choice for custom traits in 2.0

pm713 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
This was a logical and foreseen step as soon as GW had made every chapter into a snowflake chapter.

It's hardly the only step they could have taken though is it?

The easiest one for GW (AKA the one with least effort) but let's not pretend it's the only option.

No, the easiest would be one BRB sized (and priced) volume and possibly actually gutting the range.

Or leaving as is, which actually isn't very different from what they're doing. But this way it reduces a lot of duplication and update issues on OUR end. Or have we forgotten the days of DA and BT with different (worse) storm shields or even the seemingly endless rollout of PA? And the sheer volume of complaints that generated? That won't happen again with this.

 Galas wrote:
I'm not saying that other armies shouldnt receive better support. What I'm saying is that it is a lie to assume that other armies would have had the same popularty as space marines with the same support,.

And you have the evidence to prove this is a lie No you don't because its never been tried so how could you?

Interested to see how they structure the consolodation given all the previously dicussed options to make it work.

I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.

My first thought was that it kind of sucks to go from being one's own army to needing $70 in new codex, but after thinking about it I see the appeal. And shifting from one design style to another was going to have some pain any way it got sliced, might as well pull the band aid off now at the start of a new edition.

 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.

It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.

It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.

Where's this article?

Also HA! Wolves get special treatment, that's funny.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.

It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.

Where's this article?

Also HA! Wolves get special treatment, that's funny.

Come on Wolves get loads of it - starting in the Lore and continuing in the vast model range,

Not just the lore but Space Wolves have the absolute worst plot armor

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.

It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.

Where's this article?

Also HA! Wolves get special treatment, that's funny.

Come on Wolves get loads of it - starting in the Lore and continuing in the vast model range,

Oh I'm not denying they get things they shouldn't, I just find it funny you say it like a positive. Look at the special things they've had recently: Stormfang/Wolf, Stormrider, Wulfen, Shield Dread/Wulfen Dread, Murderfang.

Of those perhaps one (shield dread) isn't an atrocity in terms of model, fluff, gameplay or multiples of the above. If I could remove everything GW added in their 'special' treatment I would in a heartbeat.

Plus most of the Marines additions are quite blatantly meant as Marines with other factions as an afterthought. I won't talk about the lore because that just ends in a massive tangent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not just the lore but Space Wolves have the absolute worst plot armor

I would draw your attention to the Ultrasmurfs at this time.

Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.

Only if "people" is defined as "annoying online-only vocal minority"...

People can't have it both ways.

There were complaints about needing "too many sources" to build an army while waiting for updated books.
There were complaints about Marines getting "too much attention" whenever these other books got updated--even when it was just copy/pasting bits from the core book into the other books.
There were complaints about how "buffing X made Y broken, but Y was okay with everyone else!".

Now they take steps to alleviate those problems and it's not a good thing? It was "an annoying online-only vocal minority"?

People complain that there are "too many sources".

GW's solution to "alleviate" those problems : force DA/SW/BA into buying two books.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage

They responded to an Ecclesiarchal invasion, fought an Inquisitor so incompetent the Grey Knights wanted to assassinate him and barely do more than duel DA as a tradition. Oh and they have Wulfen which they keep secret even though they're put their by the Emperor.

UM operate as a Legion in multiple respects, have their own mini Empire, get to send Marines into the EoT and just bring them back.

BA and all Successors, Salamanders, Black Dragons and Raven Guard all have mutation with less of an excuse. BT are a literal Legion. Marines Malevolent steal from the Ad Mech. But sure Wolves are the ones with plot armour.

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage

They responded to an Ecclesiarchal invasion, fought an Inquisitor so incompetent the Grey Knights wanted to assassinate him and barely do more than duel DA as a tradition. Oh and they have Wulfen which they keep secret even though they're put their by the Emperor.

UM operate as a Legion in multiple respects, have their own mini Empire, get to send Marines into the EoT and just bring them back.

BA and all Successors, Salamanders, Black Dragons and Raven Guard all have mutation with less of an excuse. BT are a literal Legion. Marines Malevolent steal from the Ad Mech. But sure Wolves are the ones with plot armour.

Not really the thread to talk about this happy to talk re PM or new thread but come on the Wolves have plot armour so thick its obscene.

 Mr Morden wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage

They responded to an Ecclesiarchal invasion, fought an Inquisitor so incompetent the Grey Knights wanted to assassinate him and barely do more than duel DA as a tradition. Oh and they have Wulfen which they keep secret even though they're put their by the Emperor.

UM operate as a Legion in multiple respects, have their own mini Empire, get to send Marines into the EoT and just bring them back.

BA and all Successors, Salamanders, Black Dragons and Raven Guard all have mutation with less of an excuse. BT are a literal Legion. Marines Malevolent steal from the Ad Mech. But sure Wolves are the ones with plot armour.

Not really the thread to talk about this happy to talk re PM or new thread

Spoiler:

They fired first against the Church....they had a massive war with the Grey Knights......they just fought another way against the Dark Angels, they hide their mutation.

I'd make a thread in the background forum, I'm terrible at PMs.