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Kanluwen wrote: The Victrix Guard and Veterans? Yeah...it's a bit daft.
Victrix Guard are extremely irritating because they're fluffed as the 'bodyguard unit' for Calgar...so he gets a bodyguard unit but Shrike, the guy who just took over for a Chapter who lost their Chapter Master, doesn't?
Shrike is too busy purging heretics and listening to "Purging with my Kin" by Linkin Loyalists while lamenting that mom just doesn't understand to have a bodyguard.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/25 21:18:15
I find it very odd. Like unless there's some obscure fluff I don't know, Tyrannic War Veterans are literally Marines who fought Tyranids before and got special stuff because. So why doesn't everyone have those?
I'd get it if they were deathwatch or fluffed as marines from a destroyed chapter that went around giving special training but they're just smurfs who fought tyranids.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Long term - If the DA keep their unique units such as Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing and Ravenwing Apothecary, Champion etc, Dark Talons, Nephilim and our characters then I can live with having two books. I suppose I've had two since PA Ritual of the Damned came out.
Short term - Depends how much DA is accessible with the new Codex and now long until the Supplement comes out. Guess I'll be Primarising for a bit.
All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand
By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.
If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?
In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules
Why?
Because character doesn't come from being able to stick a frag cannon on your Dreadnought for no apparent reason, or being able to mix Terminator weapons arbitrarily.
You want to play Blood Angels? Well paint your guys in Blood Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
Want Space Wolves? Paint your guys in Wolfy iconography and markings, cover them in furs, and take thematically appropriate units.
Dark Angels? Paint your guys in Dark Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
It's a system which works fine for Hawk Lords, Fire Angels, Mentors etc. already.
Dark Angels don't need to be the only Marines who can take Terminator Apothecaries and plasma cannons to make them Dark Angels.
Blood Angels don't need an inferior Ironclad which can swap out it's defining melee armaments for guns (???) to be Blood Angels
There's no reason for the Space Wolves to have never received any Thunderfire Cannons.
How about we let Salamanders have their Predator sponson heavy flamers back rather than restricting them to Blood Angels for no reason?
Why do Death Company and Wulfen need to be distinct unit entries when they both represent the same basic concept? How about we have a single unit which will also let Black Dragons take Dragon Claws, and Sons of Anteus take Abominations?
What about letting Raven Guard take jump pack Command Squads/Shrike's Wing again?
Those Centurions Dark Angels ought to have? Lets let them take them finally!
Oh, you want your Black Templars to be able to take a Furioso like the illustration in their 4th ed. Codex? Let's make it happen!
Don't think your Space Wolves should be running ten-strong Long Fangs packs? Well don't take more than six Devastators.
Want your Ultramarines Terminators to be restricted to single loadouts per squad rather than mixing weapons? Well you don't need the rules to force that restriction on you.
Don't want your Red Templars to take Librarians? Just don't take one!
Also because the current glut of Marine rules are a bloated abomination.
Seriously - count up how many Dreadnought entries there are alone.
Aye it's also how some factions in the past worked, and it was beautifull...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.
If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?
In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules
Why?
Because character doesn't come from being able to stick a frag cannon on your Dreadnought for no apparent reason, or being able to mix Terminator weapons arbitrarily.
You want to play Blood Angels? Well paint your guys in Blood Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
Want Space Wolves? Paint your guys in Wolfy iconography and markings, cover them in furs, and take thematically appropriate units.
Dark Angels? Paint your guys in Dark Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
It's a system which works fine for Hawk Lords, Fire Angels, Mentors etc. already.
Dark Angels don't need to be the only Marines who can take Terminator Apothecaries and plasma cannons to make them Dark Angels.
Blood Angels don't need an inferior Ironclad which can swap out it's defining melee armaments for guns (???) to be Blood Angels
There's no reason for the Space Wolves to have never received any Thunderfire Cannons.
How about we let Salamanders have their Predator sponson heavy flamers back rather than restricting them to Blood Angels for no reason?
Why do Death Company and Wulfen need to be distinct unit entries when they both represent the same basic concept? How about we have a single unit which will also let Black Dragons take Dragon Claws, and Sons of Anteus take Abominations?
What about letting Raven Guard take jump pack Command Squads/Shrike's Wing again?
Those Centurions Dark Angels ought to have? Lets let them take them finally!
Oh, you want your Black Templars to be able to take a Furioso like the illustration in their 4th ed. Codex? Let's make it happen!
Don't think your Space Wolves should be running ten-strong Long Fangs packs? Well don't take more than six Devastators.
Want your Ultramarines Terminators to be restricted to single loadouts per squad rather than mixing weapons? Well you don't need the rules to force that restriction on you.
Don't want your Red Templars to take Librarians? Just don't take one!
Also because the current glut of Marine rules are a bloated abomination.
Seriously - count up how many Dreadnought entries there are alone.
I find your ideas intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Having been playing since 2nd ed, it doesn’t matter how many books they put out, I’ve been a FT (BA) player for a long time, and have always needed multiple books. So this change would be yet another ‘no change’ as far as I’m concerned. And besides, GW will change their mind before the end of the year anyway.
I agree with the above, the actual differences were always to make the new stuff interesting to buyers, and had little in game benefit except to make older units - hello assault marines! - seem pathetic by comparison. Tidying up, and allowing options, which allows you to follow the game fluff ‘if you want’ or to play the rules as they are for your particular brand of Dark Angels, then go for it. You can do it. It’s actually less limiting to cut out all the bloat, as outlined above.
Keep in mind, that all of those data sheets also come with models, which bloats the model count, the manufacturing capacity, and the inability of stores to carry everything you might want.
"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns
2020/07/25 22:14:17
Subject: Re:Space Marines being rolled into one book
By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.
If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?
In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules
Why?
Because character doesn't come from being able to stick a frag cannon on your Dreadnought for no apparent reason, or being able to mix Terminator weapons arbitrarily.
You want to play Blood Angels? Well paint your guys in Blood Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
Want Space Wolves? Paint your guys in Wolfy iconography and markings, cover them in furs, and take thematically appropriate units.
Dark Angels? Paint your guys in Dark Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
It's a system which works fine for Hawk Lords, Fire Angels, Mentors etc. already.
Dark Angels don't need to be the only Marines who can take Terminator Apothecaries and plasma cannons to make them Dark Angels.
Blood Angels don't need an inferior Ironclad which can swap out it's defining melee armaments for guns (???) to be Blood Angels
There's no reason for the Space Wolves to have never received any Thunderfire Cannons.
How about we let Salamanders have their Predator sponson heavy flamers back rather than restricting them to Blood Angels for no reason?
Why do Death Company and Wulfen need to be distinct unit entries when they both represent the same basic concept? How about we have a single unit which will also let Black Dragons take Dragon Claws, and Sons of Anteus take Abominations?
What about letting Raven Guard take jump pack Command Squads/Shrike's Wing again?
Those Centurions Dark Angels ought to have? Lets let them take them finally!
Oh, you want your Black Templars to be able to take a Furioso like the illustration in their 4th ed. Codex? Let's make it happen!
Don't think your Space Wolves should be running ten-strong Long Fangs packs? Well don't take more than six Devastators.
Want your Ultramarines Terminators to be restricted to single loadouts per squad rather than mixing weapons? Well you don't need the rules to force that restriction on you.
Don't want your Red Templars to take Librarians? Just don't take one!
Also because the current glut of Marine rules are a bloated abomination.
Seriously - count up how many Dreadnought entries there are alone.
I agree with you to an extent- Ideally, we wouldn't have chapter tactics or any such nonsense because the game is mechanically interesting enough to accommodate various play styles within the same army. However, part of what is interesting about the chapters with special units is those units, which should facilitate the fighting style of their respective chapters. Nor is it necessarily healthy for the game if, say, every chapter had bikers with double plasma guns. Those units are part of the chapter's identity.
The problem, as always, is that there is so very little in the core rules for codex rules to interact with to create unique, interesting play styles and identities for the various armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/25 22:27:08
You guys are ten years too late. This discussion is boring : "it's just marine with a different color" ... that's what DA/SW/BA were back in the third ed. The only thing that bother me slightly with all your argument around bloat is that it is nonsensical. It is not DA/SW/BA that are at the source of a bloat, it is not DA/SW/BA that make stores unable to "carry everything you might want". When was the last time you saw a sizeable number of DA kit in a GW store ? This is nonsense and people should just recognize that the argument is dumb.
Let's take a side step and actually think about what is happening : GW is releasing in the indomitus box nothing less than 9 new models for SM. Out of those 9 new models, we can believe than at least 6 will get kits. Adding to that, GW already informed us that they will release a new chaplain on bike, a new buggy, a new primaris techmarine, a new techmarine with his gun, a new fortification for SM, and now a new tank. I might be missing something but it's sufficient enough : in the early days of the 9th, GW is releasing nothing less than 12 new SM units/kits. And that's not even taking into consideration all the units that GW released between the two v8 SM codexes. Here is where the bloat is coming from : GW is releasing, at an alarming pace, a new line for the SM. And when all is done, we all know they will put almost all of the old marine in the legend category. In the mean time, the SM just have too much units and people, short sighted as they are and unable to see the forest, actually think DA/SW/BA are somewhat responsible in anything.
Finally, RULE WISE the supplements are actually at the source of a huge bloat : in the DA/SW/BA stand alone codex, there are less relics/strat/psychic powers than in a the combined SM+supplement format. Rule wise, this two-book essential SM combo effectively gave SM a terrible advantage over other armies because they got almost twice the number of stratagem, twice the number of relics, etc. It was basically PA's job to even out the play field by giving more stratagem to other armies. This will not happen in early v9 : get ready for a SM dominated meta.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/25 22:35:26
By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.
If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?
Like how Raven Guard players have to pay for rules for Calgar, or Sallies pay for IF chapter tactics? Or marine players who dislike primaris? Eldar that don't spam wraiths?
By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.
If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?
Like how Raven Guard players have to pay for rules for Calgar, or Sallies pay for IF chapter tactics? Or marine players who dislike primaris? Eldar that don't spam wraiths?
You do know Calgar is in the Ultramarines supplement, right? And the rules for the IF Chapter Tactics are all of 1 paragraph.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/25 22:36:27
By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.
If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?
Like how Raven Guard players have to pay for rules for Calgar, or Sallies pay for IF chapter tactics? Or marine players who dislike primaris? Eldar that don't spam wraiths?
You do know Calgar is in the Ultramarines supplement, right? And the rules for the IF Chapter Tactics are all of 1 paragraph.
No, I was not aware, or forgot- which I presume only happened to charge people for the rules for primaris Calgar. And while the IF tactics may be a single sentence, those are still rules that non IF marine players are paying for. You understand my point, I know.
To turn it around- why should I be paying extra to run my DA? GW could have, with less effort than producing a supplement, included all our unique rules and even lore in the Space Marine dex, instead of taxing us. Like GW does with the Ravenwing bits................ Yes, yes, it's greed, obviously. It is not beneficial for gameplay.
GW needs to include stat cards in the kits. I don't mind paying for a rulebook, but cards would allow them to release new kits without supplements or waiting an entire edition. Reducing the number of data sheets would go a long way, as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/25 22:54:19
About 20 years late, but it's nice to finally see progress on this ground.
It's good for Space Marine players - they don't have to wait for FAQ/supplement cycles to get access to a new unit.
It's good for everyone else - less release slots wasted on a book that's 80% the same as something else.
It's good for GW - any new Space Marines unit is incentivised as a purchase option for all space marines players as soon as one set of rules are available regardless of whether they're bloody or wolfy or mysterious.
Short of GW moving to a fully online free updated army building model like Infinity, Malifaux, SIF or the like, there's NO book release solution that will satisfy everyone, so the release model is just a wash.
Option A: bundle everything together, and then every flavour of astartes player has to buy a massive rulebook sized tome.
Option B: this, and then every flavour of astartes player has to buy at least two, if not more, books
Option C: The 4th-8th model, where all non-astartes players have to put up with Codex Similar Marines five times (it's really different this time, we swear, because this one unit can mix its weapons), and a notable amount of Space Marines players are stuck waiting around for weird FAQ and supplement schedules to play with new toys, or just don't get their new toys.
If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
WhiteDog wrote: You guys are ten years too late. This discussion is boring : "it's just marine with a different color" ... that's what DA/SW/BA were back in the third ed.
The only thing that bother me slightly with all your argument around bloat is that it is nonsensical. It is not DA/SW/BA that are at the source of a bloat, it is not DA/SW/BA that make stores unable to "carry everything you might want". When was the last time you saw a sizeable number of DA kit in a GW store ? This is nonsense and people should just recognize that the argument is dumb.
I don't care about there being more models.
More models is good!
WhiteDog wrote: Let's take a side step and actually think about what is happening : GW is releasing in the indomitus box nothing less than 9 new models for SM. Out of those 9 new models, we can believe than at least 6 will get kits. Adding to that, GW already informed us that they will release a new chaplain on bike, a new buggy, a new primaris techmarine, a new techmarine with his gun, a new fortification for SM, and now a new tank. I might be missing something but it's sufficient enough : in the early days of the 9th, GW is releasing nothing less than 12 new SM units/kits.
And that's not even taking into consideration all the units that GW released between the two v8 SM codexes.
Here is where the bloat is coming from : GW is releasing, at an alarming pace, a new line for the SM. And when all is done, we all know they will put almost all of the old marine in the legend category. In the mean time, the SM just have too much units and people, short sighted as they are and unable to see the forest, actually think DA/SW/BA are somewhat responsible in anything.
Primaris are a related but separate problem - they're replacing, by duplicating, the classic Marines line.
Although the number of Primaris units which are essentially variations on dudes with slightly different boltguns is also pretty absurd.
The problem of rules bloat predates Primaris significantly though.
Variant Marines are absolutely responsible for bloat.
Lets add a flier to the Space Marine list. Great idea!
...or we could add:
Stormraven
Stormtalen
Stormhawk
Nephilim
Dark Talon
Stormfang
Stormwolf
(note that at some point in the process Blood Angels went from the only Marines with a flier to not having their own unique flier...)
And that's not counting the Forgeworld range. AND we still never even got a Harpy!
All of those units are competing in the same rules-design space. Why don't the Stormwolf and Stormraven use the same basic rules, since they're both transport craft? Do we really need five fighter craft all with just slightly different guns?
What do we gain by the Stormtalen and Stormhawk being different units and not being available to Dark Angels and Space Wolves? (other than 'it makes them different!')
What do the Dark Angels do when they need air support and the Ravenwing are off hunting Fallen somewhere else?
If we're going to duplicate the vanilla fliers in Codex: Blood Angels anyway, why not consolidate the lists?
Did all the Stormtalens get lost with the Space Wolves' Thunderfire Cannons and Centurion suits?
Now, we could keep all of the different models just fine; but they don't all need different rules/datasheets.
Lets do Dreadnoughts! (from memory):
vanilla Dreadnought
vanilla Venerable
vanilla Ironclad
vanilla Contemptor
vanilla Redemptor
Dark Angel Dreadnought (Note: never got signature Mortis in a codex)
Dark Angel Ironclad (nope; Dark Angels obviously never have need of a melee variant)
Dark Angel Venerable
Dark Angel Contemptor
Dark Angel Redemptor
Blood Angel Dreadnought
Blood Angel Furioso (Note: we know Black Templars and Blood Ravens also use the Furioso)
Blood Angel Death Company
Blood Angel Librarian (I guess nobody else has wounded Librarians?)
Blood Angel Contemptor
Blood Angel Redemptor
Space Wolf Dreadnought
Space Wolf Venerable
Space Wolf Contemptor
Space Wolf Redemptor
Space Wolf Wulfen (it's totally nothing like a Death Company Dreadnought! Honest!)
Space Wolf Bjorn
Space Wolf Murderfang (Note: Blood Angels lost Moriah, but Space Wolves gained a crazy character dread)
That's quite a list for what could relatively easily be just one or two unit entries.
WhiteDog wrote: Finally, RULE WISE the supplements are actually at the source of a huge bloat : in the DA/SW/BA stand alone codex, there are less relics/strat/psychic powers than in a the combined SM+supplement format. Rule wise, this two-book essential SM combo effectively gave SM a terrible advantage over other armies because they got almost twice the number of stratagem, twice the number of relics, etc. It was basically PA's job to even out the play field by giving more stratagem to other armies. This will not happen in early v9 : get ready for a SM dominated meta.
Thus, roll supplement lists (back) into Codex: Space Marines, and consolidate overlapping unit entries*, and voila! less bloat.
*Remind me why Marines need two different anti-aircraft tanks again? Could we not abstract the unit entry to cover both, plus the Hyperios?
Is it important that the Deathwing Ancient can take a banner and two weapons but nobody else can (not that Space Wolves can even have Terminator Ancients for some reason...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/25 23:17:24
There will be a space Marines codex book
And then each chapter will get a supplement book, BA, SW, DA, DW included.
We already know supplements will include new unit options from 8th format doing so.
That's two books.
From the video I saw, it showed that all divergent chapters will be in the one codex, it was the single good thing about dropping a new codex less than half a year since the last codex that did the exact same thing.
My concern is that the new App is supposed to be tied to the books, which seems silly. Forcing people to buy both is such an easy way to print money, DND does it and so do all the online DND platforms. Now every 9th book will come with a 1 time single use code to add that codex/book to the app. I'll never call GW fair, but this is the first time I've ever seen them be dumb with money. And the new Impulsor is hot garbage. It's literally just a crappy turret slapped on an impulsor, the whole thing will likely be 1 extra spru, for 60 pounds total
By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.
If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?
In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules
Why?
So we don't have to spend 2/3rds of every edition on new marine codex releases. That's the best part of the supplement thing. They can drop every space marine army by december and we won't need to touch any of them again until tenth. (they'll still get stuff, obviously, we just might actually fit other factions into the release schedule this time.)
The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo. And yes, I know BA lived off SG and DC at the end of 8th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/25 23:43:47
Martel732 wrote: The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo.
To an extent this is VERY true.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Jimbobbyish wrote: Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.
Depends which angle you come at it from.
Fluff/Concept?
Thunderwolf Cavalry - Dumb as a bag of hammers.
Wulfen - Totally fine.
Fenris Wolves - I mean, they fit the army, so why not?
Miniatures?
Thunderwolf Cavalry - Amazing execution, given what a stupid concept they are.
Wulfen - Jesus Christ they're hideous!!! Fenris Wolves - They're fine. Nothing outstanding. Nothing eye-gougingly offensive.
Whether They Should Exist At All In The New Codex?
Some people seem to think they shouldn't. I think they should.
Of course, unrelated to the above three, if the words "Murder" and "Fang" never saw another print run I wouldn't lose any sleep.
Aw man, I'm the opposite when it comes to TWC! I love the fluff and I'm heavily converting the models (link in signature). Admittedly a lot of the space wolf names for things is silly.
Primaris fanboy: "NO, you can't just give old marines 2W, they're supposed to be squatted!" GW: "Heavy Bolters go brrrrrrrr"
If the argument for their uniqueness is spamming Wulfen and Thunderwolves, then it wasn't really a unique army to begin with whether you like it or not.
Legio Suturvora 2000 points (painted)
Daemonhunters 1000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013
nervous sweating 
