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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Grey Knights and Deathwatch go into a combined Inquisition codex. I would want Sisters in there too, which some people threw a hissy fit about.

Sisters have 0 in common with the grey knights or the death watch, and they aren't related to the Inquisition, and unlike the GK and DW they are a full, general purpose army, not some extra-specialized forces.

Well it worked for the Witch Hunters codex so you're apparently wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Don't Grey Hunters, all versions of bloodclaws and WG have different stats, rules and weapon options that can't be taken by other marines. I have no expiriance playing against SW, but from what I think I can remember GH can't take heavy weapons and blood claws aren't tactical marines either.

SW scouts are elite, and their dreadnoughts run around with storm shields.

Space Wolves Scouts also suck and are apparently SUPER experienced but don't even have Vet stats.

They have been backing away from the chamber militant thing in every publication since the Witch Hunters Codex.

As for all those Space Wolf units, they will either get their own datasheet, have slight modifications made to their equivalent datasheet, or will disappear except as a chapter specific name.

Look at the Black Templars. Crusader squads have a datasheet while Sword Brethren are Vanguard Veterans without jump packs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it worked for the Witch Hunters codex so you're apparently wrong.

What do you mean “it worked”?

 alextroy wrote:
They have been backing away from the chamber militant thing in every publication since the Witch Hunters Codex.

As for all those Space Wolf units, they will either get their own datasheet, have slight modifications made to their equivalent datasheet, or will disappear except as a chapter specific name.

Look at the Black Templars. Crusader squads have a datasheet while Sword Brethren are Vanguard Veterans without jump packs.

Yeah.

As I posted previously, mechanically there were only about 5 options that made grey hunters different to tactical marines.

As the game is mechanics, only mechanics matter for distinguishing units from one another.

So you can EASILY represent the space wolf army with the marine codex, with different option lists rather than needing a whole data sheet for each unit.

But even then, as smudge has shown, you can still put ALL the unique data sheets into a supplement in a relatively small number of pages.

 Nevelon wrote:
Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.

Until there's a line in their supplement that reads "______ do not use ______"....

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it worked for the Witch Hunters codex so you're apparently wrong.

What do you mean “it worked”?

Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

With SW, DA, BA in the main codex now do we also get access to the regular SM psychic awakening stuff? Would we get centurion and other similar units?

Jimbobbyish wrote:
With SW, DA, BA in the main codex now do we also get access to the regular SM psychic awakening stuff? Would we get centurion and other similar units?

Based on the current supplement design, I assume you'll have access to everything. Back when salamanders were first released in 3rd ed Armageddon, they had very limited access to anti grav, land speeders etc due to their homeworld. That's disappeared over the last 20 years but you can still choose to represent that voluntarily.

I can only see two options for the supplements:

1: as current supplements, choose anything plus here are some unique datasheets

2: here is a list of units you can or cannot use from the core book and here are some unique datasheets
2a - they can either remove some options and add unique ones, or they can allow everything and provide unique ones (ie wolves can take Tac squads AND grey hunters, or they replace tac squads with grey hunters)

Throwing a hissy fit about old marine units is a waste of time. You KNOW that old marines are going to be moved to legends eventually. You KNOW it's going to be all Primaris. Lone Wolves are just going to be ANOTHER Lt Model they make for SWs. Grey Hunters are just Intercessors. Want Blood Claws?



Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

Now I want primaris TWC, and Primaris Wulfen, Primaris Fenrisian wolves (we all know we're they come from )

 Lance845 wrote:
Throwing a hissy fit about old marine units is a waste of time. You KNOW that old marines are going to be moved to legends eventually. You KNOW it's going to be all Primaris. Lone Wolves are just going to be ANOTHER Lt Model they make for SWs. Grey Hunters are just Intercessors. Want Blood Claws?

Spoiler:

Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

100% this.

Just looking at both pictures it is clear which one is supposed to be generic and which one is Space Wolves. The difference and character does not come from rules, but from models.

That is one reason why I would be okay with consolidating outlier units with regular ones. Just put an upgrade sprue on it and you are good to go. Space Wolves should mean "Vikings in space" and not "That unit can take a CCW in addition to the regular loadout, thats why they are Space Wolves, that's their identity.".

 Lance845 wrote:

Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

You are absolutely right! And this is a good thing. You get better looking Blood Claws with better rules. What's not to like?

 Crimson wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

You are absolutely right! And this is a good thing. You get better looking Blood Claws with better rules. What's not to like?

they are not Blood Claws aka Space Wolves recruits
if the rules don't fit the narritive, there is no need for Special Chapter rules or even Supplements at all

 kodos wrote:

they are not Blood Claws aka Space Wolves recruits

Who says they aren't? These days the new Space Wolf recruits are Primaris, and if they continue their tradition of forming them into close combat oriented squads then these guys are it.

if the rules don't fit the narritive, there is no need for Special Chapter rules or even Supplements at all

How do the rules not fit?

 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

 kodos wrote:

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?

Not all, but Space Wolf ones might be. Recruits and normal marines do not usually have a different profile any more, scouts have the same statline than standard marines, so whether someone is a newbie or not is just fluff.

So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

No, you paint Infiltrators with scout markings! But seriously, in codex chapter scouts represent pre-black carapace stage, so as long as the fluff is that such recruits take part in battles having a separate not-power-armour-wearing marine profile makes sense. What the SW do with their pre-black-carapace recruits I don't know, it never made any sense that they wouldn't have them.

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.

You probably need a few more than three... But yeah, units where the difference is just fluff or some special rule or extra gear option that can be added via supplement don't need separate datasheets.

also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

Yes, this would be ideal.

 kodos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

I don't think equating Assault Intersessors to Blood Claws (same equipment, only lacking the special Blood Claw rules which could be added with an additional keyword) is really the same as removing scouts or indeed every other unit in a Space marine list other than a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit as you are suggesting.

Assault Intersessors could easily have the Blood Claw keyword added to them in the Space Wolf supplement. Will they do this? I hope so.

When the Space Wolf Primaris units have been painted by the staff at GW the regular Intersessors have had the Grey Hunter markings and the Assault Intersessors have the Blood Claw markings, Bladeguard have the Wolf Guard markings, Aggressors have the Long Fang markings.

 kodos wrote:
So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

You put too much emphasis on actual crunch differences, when the system is simply not granular enough to accomodate for that.
A Scout got the same stats as a tactical Marine got the same as a Veteran got the same as a 10.000 year old Chaos Marine.

When everything has to be stuffed into numbers from 1 to 10 (or in case of BS and WS from 2 to 6), you will run into problems with plausability.

All you need to properly represent a typical army of a specific flavour is unit composition and a paint job (with some decals):
A Blood Angel army consists of marines with mostly jump packs and some painted in black armor.
A Scars army will have transporter and bikes
And so on. You don't need arbitrary rule differences that make no sense from a lore perspective (talking about all the wargear and units that are not available just because)

That's just a good argument to move to a D12 system.

Jimbobbyish wrote:With SW, DA, BA in the main codex now do we also get access to the regular SM psychic awakening stuff? Would we get centurion and other similar units?

If I were writing it, yes, I'd make that so. From GW's perspective, I'd also do it (after all, more chances to sell things like Centurions off to new people!).

Besides, it really doesn't make sense for those Chapters NOT to have things like Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, and suchlike.

 kodos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

Boy, if only you had....let's see....FOUR units to choose from to represent your Wolf Scouts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it seems like, from GW's current images and marketing, a few things are happening:

1) Terminators might be sticking around for a while. At least, longer than oldmarines. There's a lot more terminators still present in art

2) Flyers are sticking around. Is there a primaris marine in there? Who knows! They're also the newest marine vehicle kits so that makes sense.

I would not be surprised if GW keeps around non-marine shaped iconic units (DA Knights, Land Speeders, Special Flyers, Thunderwolves and Wulfen and TWC) and creates a primaris wave where they recreate some of the iconic chapter units. Maybe a wave with Primaris Sang Guard, Primaris Ravenwing, Primaris GK Strikes, Primaris DW Vets.

That's peanuts for a Primaris wave. Keep everything else around, and that's basically the snowflake marine codexes sorted.

The funny part about Wolf Scouts is that the Vanguard Phobos stuff is an easier shift than people think.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part about Wolf Scouts is that the Vanguard Phobos stuff is an easier shift than people think.

Yeah, they make perfect sense for the Space Wolf combat doctrine.

The two things I have taken from this entire thread is.

1.
People want this game to have as few factions as possible so it can feel like an out of the box non-customization board game where everyone has access to exactly the same stuff with very very few exceptions. (to me, this makes the game incredibly boring and bland, its not why I got into the game and its not a game I want to play,,, i'll just play Risk or something if thats what 40k becomes). Honestly, the appeal of the game to me is I was always playing against something different and unique and my own armies felt unique as well. Its weird to me that some people adamantly want this removed from the game ...

2.
Everything happening here are attempts by GW to get people to replace their army with their new line. And the overwhelming response to "I want my unique units" seems to be "buy primaris and convert them to look more wolfy" ... A: you are missing the point, i want mechanically unique units as well as asthetically. B: you keep being spoonfed to think it is ok that this company is coercing us to slowly rebuy the same things we have already bought (but slightly bigger and shinier) and scrap our old stuff... and somehow you guys are excited about this ? but i am not going to eat GWs gak with a grin while they invalidate 1000s of dollars and hours of mine whilst convincing me I "want" to replace my bikes with bigger bikes and my blood-claws with more generic bigger guys with chains swords, my grey hunters with bigger generic tactical marines...

Honestly, if its going to be a supplement that is the size of a codex outlining all the exceptions, changes and alternative datasheets then why make it a supplement at all. Either SW lose everything but a few units that make them unique OR they keep most things but GW has forced SW players to buy two codexes instead of one for a few pages of extra datasheets... great.

What do you guys all planing on doing with your old-marines anyways ? once you have an entire primaris army ? are you going to stare down at your worthless, non-playable plastic and smile while GW force feeds you primaris 2.0 to replace your primaris ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. "representing" my army with other units is not the same thing has having interesting unique mechanics and aesthetics of their own... I know some of you may argue that "there is not a lot unique about space wolves" but then I would say the same about and CSM faction... deamons=wulfen , special vehicles = storm fang, CSM = grey hunter = tac marine... so either we encourage a direction that white breads the entire game and make it no more customizable then an out of the box board game or we encourage people to have unique and interesting armies... I for one am not looking forward to the day when the only faction is "marines" and everyone plays the same list with the same units .... I guess its good for balance though.

 Type40 wrote:
The two things I have taken from this entire thread is.

1.
People want this game to have as few factions as possible so it can feel like an out of the box non-customization board game where everyone has access to exactly the same stuff with very very few exceptions. (to me, this makes the game incredibly boring and bland, its not why I got into the game and its not a game I want to play,,, i'll just play Risk or something if thats what 40k becomes). Honestly, the appeal of the game to me is I was always playing against something different and unique and my own armies felt unique as well. Its weird to me that some people adamantly want this removed from the game ...

2.
Everything happening here are attempts by GW to get people to replace their army with their new line. And the overwhelming response to "I want my unique units" seems to be "buy primaris and convert them to look more wolfy" ... A: you are missing the point, i want mechanically unique units as well as asthetically. B: you keep being spoonfed to think it is ok that this company is coercing us to slowly rebuy the same things we have already bought (but slightly bigger and shinier) and scrap our old stuff... and somehow you guys are excited about this ? but i am not going to eat GWs gak with a grin while they invalidate 1000s of dollars and hours of mine whilst convincing me I "want" to replace my bikes with bigger bikes and my blood-claws with more generic bigger guys with chains swords, my grey hunters with bigger generic tactical marines...

Honestly, if its going to be a supplement that is the size of a codex outlining all the exceptions, changes and alternative datasheets then why make it a supplement at all. Either SW lose everything but a few units that make them unique OR they keep most things but GW has forced SW players to buy two codexes instead of one for a few pages of extra datasheets... great.

What do you guys all planing on doing with your old-marines anyways ? once you have an entire primaris army ? are you going to stare down at your worthless, non-playable plastic and smile while GW force feeds you primaris 2.0 to replace your primaris ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. "representing" my army with other units is not the same thing has having interesting unique mechanics and aesthetics of their own... I know some of you may argue that "there is not a lot unique about space wolves" but then I would say the same about and CSM faction... deamons=wulfen , special vehicles = storm fang, CSM = grey hunter = tac marine... so either we encourage a direction that white breads the entire game and make it no more customizable then an out of the box board game or we encourage people to have unique and interesting armies... I for one am not looking forward to the day when the only faction is "marines" and everyone plays the same list with the same units .... I guess its good for balance though.

1. Yes
2. Yes

They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

The funny thing is, this "consolidation" that so many people desire will never actually fix the game for the better because the problem of the game have NOTHING to do with SW/DA/BA and the unique units/datasheets they have. I'm baffled that people on dakka still did not understood that to limit imbalance and bloat GW NEED to give some strict guideline on the number of relic, stratagem, warlord traits, etc. that they give to all factions and that the codex+supplement is going the EXACT OPPOSITE direction by giving one faction (SM) access to 10 times the number of strat/relics/warlordtraits/psyc power than other factions.

1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.

2 of course gw is trying to get you to buy the new stuff. They are a company.

3 your feelings are noted. They also dont matter. This is happening wether you enjoy it or not. Get on board and play or sell your stuff and get out of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

1. Yes
2. Yes

They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

The funny thing is, this "consolidation" that so many people desire will never actually fix the game for the better because the problem of the game have NOTHING to do with SW/DA/BA and the unique units/datasheets they have. I'm baffled that people on dakka still did not understood that to limit imbalance and bloat GW NEED to give some strict guideline on the number of relic, stratagem, warlord traits, etc. that they give to all factions and that the codex+supplement is going the EXACT OPPOSITE direction by giving one faction (SM) access to 10 times the number of strat/relics/warlordtraits/psyc power than other factions.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

The problems with the game have to do with it's core mechanics. It's hilarious to see someone rage against the inevitable with primaris by saying they are "fixing" the wrong things with the game (nobody is calling this a fix. It's just what it is) and then pointing at other things that are not issues.

 Lance845 wrote:
1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.

2 of course gw is trying to get you to buy the new stuff. They are a company.

3 your feelings are noted. They also dont matter. This is happening wether you enjoy it or not. Get on board and play or sell your stuff and get out of the game.

and I am the one being called gatekeepy lol.

You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army... All this means is you will get to play against even more generic marines... your point is moot. these changes make your problem worse not better... your are really silly if you cant see that.

Of course GW wants to sell me stuff, but shady business is shady business and its important to call it out. How would you feel if your electricity company released a new model of circuit breaker and told you that you had to buy this new one to continue getting electricity. Its not that the old cant' work anymore, or even that the old one isnt safe. The old one is perfectly fine. They just refused to send electricity to a house with the old one, so you better go replace that thing you have...
Giving people the option to have new fancy stuff and selling it to them is good buisness. Invalidating perfectly good stuff so you HAVE to buy the new stuff is shady. I am sorry you are ok with gak buisness practices, I feel bad for you, honestly, life will be expensive for you/everyone if we just let business get away with gak like this. (p.s. doing exactly this is illegal in some industries. )

Thanks and your feelings are noted too. Your condescending elitism also really just doesnt mater. If there is no where else to voice our concerns about a hobby then a hobby forum then I don't know where. The point is, you dont get to tell people they dont have the right to voice their opinions and perspective. You arn't special and you arn't the king of Dakka. So thanks for the advice, but i dont think I will listen to your silly order/decree ,,, your highness.

 Type40 wrote:
The two things I have taken from this entire thread is.

1.
People want this game to have as few factions as possible so it can feel like an out of the box non-customization board game where everyone has access to exactly the same stuff with very very few exceptions. (to me, this makes the game incredibly boring and bland, its not why I got into the game and its not a game I want to play,,, i'll just play Risk or something if thats what 40k becomes). Honestly, the appeal of the game to me is I was always playing against something different and unique and my own armies felt unique as well. Its weird to me that some people adamantly want this removed from the game ...

2.
Everything happening here are attempts by GW to get people to replace their army with their new line. And the overwhelming response to "I want my unique units" seems to be "buy primaris and convert them to look more wolfy" ... A: you are missing the point, i want mechanically unique units as well as asthetically. B: you keep being spoonfed to think it is ok that this company is coercing us to slowly rebuy the same things we have already bought (but slightly bigger and shinier) and scrap our old stuff... and somehow you guys are excited about this ? but i am not going to eat GWs gak with a grin while they invalidate 1000s of dollars and hours of mine whilst convincing me I "want" to replace my bikes with bigger bikes and my blood-claws with more generic bigger guys with chains swords, my grey hunters with bigger generic tactical marines...

Honestly, if its going to be a supplement that is the size of a codex outlining all the exceptions, changes and alternative datasheets then why make it a supplement at all. Either SW lose everything but a few units that make them unique OR they keep most things but GW has forced SW players to buy two codexes instead of one for a few pages of extra datasheets... great.

What do you guys all planing on doing with your old-marines anyways ? once you have an entire primaris army ? are you going to stare down at your worthless, non-playable plastic and smile while GW force feeds you primaris 2.0 to replace your primaris ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. "representing" my army with other units is not the same thing has having interesting unique mechanics and aesthetics of their own... I know some of you may argue that "there is not a lot unique about space wolves" but then I would say the same about and CSM faction... deamons=wulfen , special vehicles = storm fang, CSM = grey hunter = tac marine... so either we encourage a direction that white breads the entire game and make it no more customizable then an out of the box board game or we encourage people to have unique and interesting armies... I for one am not looking forward to the day when the only faction is "marines" and everyone plays the same list with the same units .... I guess its good for balance though.

If that’s all you took, then their are other light bulbs in the box I’d choose to put in my dining room light fixture.

 Type40 wrote:
You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army...

When people that already have a space marine army decide to start collecting another army, they are WAY less likely to decide to start another differently colored space marine army now. Some still will, sure, but most will settle for an army other than SM loyalist.

WhiteDog wrote:
1. Yes
2. Yes

They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

The funny thing is, this "consolidation" that so many people desire will never actually fix the game for the better because the problem of the game have NOTHING to do with SW/DA/BA and the unique units/datasheets they have. I'm baffled that people on dakka still did not understood that to limit imbalance and bloat GW NEED to give some strict guideline on the number of relic, stratagem, warlord traits, etc. that they give to all factions and that the codex+supplement is going the EXACT OPPOSITE direction by giving one faction (SM) access to 10 times the number of strat/relics/warlordtraits/psyc power than other factions.

Hey, @Auticus, it's an example of that thing nobody does, honest! :p