I bought the starter set and it came yesterday. I've never used GW Contrast paints, so these are my first paints of this type. I painted the Gourd Reaper II for Don't Look Back today
White spray primer, regular black in eyes, nose and mouth, rest is Speedpaint.
Was kind of like using inks to paint. I really like the orange, a color I have had trouble with in the past. I think the figure came out decently for the few minutes it took to paint it up.
I do like the way they look on the flatter surfaces, it's undeniably a lot smoother than contrast. Still can't see myself picking them up unless they sort out the bleeding, but I really hope they do as they really do look very nice with one coat
A friend picked up the speedpaint starter set and has been messing around with them. He thinks the reactivation issue is one of drying time, says that if he allows 12-16 hours between layers he notices significantly less reactivation, than he does after 2-4 hours between layers, and little/no reactivation if hew waits 24+ hours between layers.
Not sure how true it is as I haven't seen it in action myself, but I was with him when he first started playing around with them and I explained to him the reactivation issue which he then later observed himself. Hopefully theres something to it.
He say if that includes other non speedpaint layers? Definitely bleeding through for me after about 20, but it'll be 40+ from first application by the time I get home. I did drop some vallejo cold white on it at said 20 hour point, is that likely to reset the dry time, or not matter?
chaos0xomega wrote: A friend picked up the speedpaint starter set and has been messing around with them. He thinks the reactivation issue is one of drying time, says that if he allows 12-16 hours between layers he notices significantly less reactivation, than he does after 2-4 hours between layers, and little/no reactivation if hew waits 24+ hours between layers.
Not sure how true it is as I haven't seen it in action myself, but I was with him when he first started playing around with them and I explained to him the reactivation issue which he then later observed himself. Hopefully theres something to it.
See this post from Army Painter's twitter account about how once cured (which can take up to a week depending on the local climate) takes care of any reactivation issues.
Juan Hidalgo on YT said he used a hairdryer and still had reactivation. In fact he commented that he hair dryered some models, then the same models even the next day were still prone to reactivation. Perhaps he didn't use the hair dryer long enough, he's very adept with GW's contrast paints so maybe he *thought* he had hair dried them long enough but hadn't.
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Bossk_Hogg wrote: So what I'm gathering is these are in fact slowpaints for anything but mostly monochrome units.
After all of this the main thing I'm interested in now is whether Speed paints are easy to blend. Many moons ago when I painted my Lizardmen blood bowl team, I airbrushed a basecoat but then to do the shading I mixed lots of drying retarder into washes and that let me wash the blue areas, then wash the bone coloured areas, then wash the purple areas, and blend the washes on the model. However even with drying retarder it was pretty messy, and without the underlying airbrush it'd look pretty ugly. Maybe with speed paints this could be done without having to use an airbrush?
I painted over the speedpaint orange with vallejo white three times. After 1, 5 and 12 days. Unthinned. It still turned the white into an orangey off-white.
So, no. Time does not solve the problem. That stuff is really aggressive.
On an upnote, you can utilise this. The beige speedpaint is much too dark, so I drybrushed over it in white, and it bled through, making the highlight more subtle. Depending on how daring you are, you could drybrush the whole miniature in white and it would turn the white colour into a highlite of the appropriate base colour.
Garfield666 wrote: I painted over the speedpaint orange with vallejo white three times. After 1, 5 and 12 days. Unthinned. It still turned the white into an orangey off-white.
So, no. Time does not solve the problem. That stuff is really aggressive.
On an upnote, you can utilise this. The beige speedpaint is much too dark, so I drybrushed over it in white, and it bled through, making the highlight more subtle. Depending on how daring you are, you could drybrush the whole miniature in white and it would turn the white colour into a highlite of the appropriate base colour.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: So what I'm gathering is these are in fact slowpaints for anything but mostly monochrome units.
They're going to be slower if you're looking to apply other paints over the top of them, but that's not what they're intended for. There's nothing stopping you from painting multi-coloured models with them, you're just likelyt to have some colour bleed around the edges if you paint outside the lines. For people more interested in speed than neatness, that bleeding is not necessarily a problem.
Vejut wrote: He say if that includes other non speedpaint layers? Definitely bleeding through for me after about 20, but it'll be 40+ from first application by the time I get home. I did drop some vallejo cold white on it at said 20 hour point, is that likely to reset the dry time, or not matter?
Yeah he said no reactivation with additional layers of speedpaint, he said certain regular/nonspeedpaints seemed to have some reactivation problems even after 24 hrs but not all (it could be a color dependenf thing?).
Bossk_Hogg wrote: So what I'm gathering is these are in fact slowpaints for anything but mostly monochrome units.
They're going to be slower if you're looking to apply other paints over the top of them, but that's not what they're intended for. There's nothing stopping you from painting multi-coloured models with them, you're just likelyt to have some colour bleed around the edges if you paint outside the lines. For people more interested in speed than neatness, that bleeding is not necessarily a problem.
Okay, but we all make mistakes when applying a basecoat to a primed model. Are we going to have to wait a week of Speedpaint curing to do touch-ups? I don't have to do that with Contrast- 20-30 minutes max.
Okay, but we all make mistakes when applying a basecoat to a primed model. Are we going to have to wait a week of Speedpaint curing to do touch-ups? I don't have to do that with Contrast- 20-30 minutes max.
At this point, the curing time seems to be hugely variable depending on individual conditions. My point was that the people these paints are primarily aimed at aren't particularly concerned with touch-ups, just with getting models painted quickly and looking 'good enough' for the table. Unless you're particularly messy, Speedpaint without touch-ups is still going to get you a quick paintjob that looks at least as good as most of the various pre-painted miniature ranges that have come and gone over the years... and for many gamers, that's more than good enough.
If you do want to be able to make those touch-ups, and the curing time is an issue for you, then this isn't going to be the product for you.
insaniak wrote: My point was that the people these paints are primarily aimed at aren't particularly concerned with touch-ups, just with getting models painted quickly and looking 'good enough' for the table.
I would still argue a speed painting method would typically involve touch ups. Like, it's quicker to just paint a blood angel entirely red then come back to touch up the joints between the armour than it is to try and stay within the lines when laying down the red.
chaos0xomega wrote: A friend picked up the speedpaint starter set and has been messing around with them. He thinks the reactivation issue is one of drying time, says that if he allows 12-16 hours between layers he notices significantly less reactivation, than he does after 2-4 hours between layers, and little/no reactivation if hew waits 24+ hours between layers.
Not sure how true it is as I haven't seen it in action myself, but I was with him when he first started playing around with them and I explained to him the reactivation issue which he then later observed himself. Hopefully theres something to it.
A blog friend of mine pre-ordered the big set, and has a series of posts where he uses them, tests drying time, etc. I'd suggest they're worth reading before spending big on a full set rather than a couple of samplers - do your homework, caveat emptor.
https://bogenwald.blog/2022/02/22/test-run-with-new-paints/
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I would still argue a speed painting method would typically involve touch ups. Like, it's quicker to just paint a blood angel entirely red then come back to touch up the joints between the armour than it is to try and stay within the lines when laying down the red.
Sure, if you're doing a model that is predominantly one colour, it's often quickest to do the whole model first and then go over it. And that's a process that would potentially have to change with these specific paints... although if you're doing the joints in black, a little bit of red bleeding through isn't really going to be much of an issue. Ultimately, though, these paints are going to be at their best if you treat it like 'colouring in' the model and try to stay as much as possible inside the lines for each colour. Or just throwing on a quick coat of varnish once you have done that main colour.
They're going to be slower if you're looking to apply other paints over the top of them, but that's not what they're intended for.
People keep saying that, but unless you can point out to me where AP specifically made a statement to that effect, you're just water carrying for a corporation and putting your assumptions out there retroactively.
"They didn't say you could just paint over them with normal hobby paint" is a BS strawman argument, as there's an unlimited number of things that anyoune could claim that "they didn't say" that are also pretty much standard parts of painting.
They also "didn't say" that you should not paint over them, not did they say that bleedthrough was an issue/result of doing so.
People keep saying that, but unless you can point out to me where AP specifically made a statement to that effect, you're just water carrying for a corporation and putting your assumptions out there retroactively.
It's already been discussed. Speedpaint was marketed as a 'one coat solution'. The fact that we all jumped the gun and assumed that it would just be a slightly cheaper but otherwise identical version of Contrast doesn't change that.
I'm fairly sure I already mentioned earlier in the thread that I think it would have been better for them to have been upfront about the bleeding issue. It would certainly be nice at this point if there was more clarity on exactly what the conditions are that make it happen, since it doesn't seem to be universal.
We'll just have to wait and see whether the price difference and smoother coverage are enough to make up for them not being as versatile as Contrast. But I definitely think there is a segment of the painting community for whom these will be perfectly adequate.
Azazelx wrote: A blog friend of mine pre-ordered the big set, and has a series of posts where he uses them, tests drying time, etc. I'd suggest they're worth reading before spending big on a full set rather than a couple of samplers - do your homework, caveat emptor.
https://bogenwald.blog/2022/02/22/test-run-with-new-paints/
From Bogenwald's blog, he experimented painting white over a 6mm red flag that was allowed to dry for 24 hours. Enjoy your blending, I guess?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I would still argue a speed painting method would typically involve touch ups. Like, it's quicker to just paint a blood angel entirely red then come back to touch up the joints between the armour than it is to try and stay within the lines when laying down the red.
Sure, if you're doing a model that is predominantly one colour, it's often quickest to do the whole model first and then go over it.
Yeah, so speed paint, that's speedy in some situations and not others.
One of my gripes is mainly that the target audience for these likely isn't going to realise things like that until after they have headaches with it.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Man, so much for these being the Contrast-Killer some were hyping them up to be...
Depends, Contrast was market as solution get armies done fast
and from the comments here, no one uses them that way as they are used as base for advanced techniques or instead of washes/inks/oils
and they don't work on flat surfaces, some colours need medium to work well, need the special primer for best effect etc.
so in the case of get things done fast, it is the Contrast Killer, cheaper, works better on flat surfaces, all colours work straight out of the bottle, tries faster but you can still remove errors with water later, gives better effect on standard primer or black/white surfaces
the downside is: does not replace Contrast, Oil Washes or Acrylic Inks for advanced painting techniques (and I never thought there will be so many MasterClass painter in a Speedpaint topic), seems to need a Primer that soaks up colour more (aka Standard AP Primer), need Varnish (which is recommended for gaming models anyway, and for display models why are you even looking for SpeedPaints)
PS: and I never understood why people did not know about "Speed Painting" until Contrast came up, this was already done that way 20 years ago with the original Citadel Inks, after they were gone with standard Acrylic Inks or Oils Washes, than with the original Citadel Washes and after they were gone again with Acrylic Inks or Oils Washes.
You neither need AP nor GW to do it, as long as you don't mind mixing colours, so the Contrast Killer was available long before Contrast existed
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: Man, so much for these being the Contrast-Killer some were hyping them up to be...
Depends, Contrast was market as solution get armies done fast
and from the comments here, no one uses them that way as they are used as base for advanced techniques or instead of washes/inks/oils
and they don't work on flat surfaces, some colours need medium to work well, need the special primer for best effect etc.
I think many (most?) people do use them for speed painting, just not "one coat over primer and done" speed painting. They'll do an edge highlight, they'll do a bit more shading with regular washes, they'll start with a coloured undercoat to increase vibrancy, they'll actually touch up mistakes... but they're still basically using it to save time.
PS: and I never understood why people did not know about "Speed Painting" until Contrast came up, this was already done that way 20 years ago with the original Citadel Inks, after they were gone with standard Acrylic Inks or Oils Washes, than with the original Citadel Washes and after they were gone again with Acrylic Inks or Oils Washes.
Back in the days of the original citadel inks, most people didn't really know how to use them properly. I certainly didn't, nor did any of my friends who used them.
GW then swapped to washes that didn't have the one-coat power of inks, but were easier to use.
Inks and stuff started to rise in popularity again before Contrast became a thing, but when Contrasts came out they were just kinda easier to use in that role. They're more paint-like and less ink-like.
But yeah, my local hobby store carries a couple of different ranges of inks. Though if you want a broad selection of colours, artists' inks become expensive and you'll end up spending more than you would have spent on GW's contrasts.
Yeah, looking back on the early days were everything but a Goblin Green base was a revolution while at the same time the guys from the railway modelling looked down on "us" for not knowing the basics about "basing"
Doing the beginner painting workshops in the club was always different for those who learned painting with GW is you needed to point out the obvious that was never shown in White Dwarf (the 4 step guides were 90% that happened between step 3 and 4 was never shown)
I agree, for the more common form of speed painting, were mixed techniques are used, those are not the colours you are looking for, and Contrast made this available for those who learn painting with GW.
also something we have done in the past was painting with Inks/Washes/Oils 1-2 hours in the evening and let them dry until the next evening
it was not fast because of the long down time between steps, but it was still speed painting and you got an army done within a week
the AP Speedpaint speed painting is more like a low effort painting rather than fast painting needing its own technique
They're going to be slower if you're looking to apply other paints over the top of them, but that's not what they're intended for.
People keep saying that, but unless you can point out to me where AP specifically made a statement to that effect, you're just water carrying for a corporation and putting your assumptions out there retroactively.
I quoted it upthread, but it's the item description on the AP website:
https://shop.thearmypainter.com/us/wp8054p "The all-in-one Warpaint Speedpaint is truly a one-coat painting solution. In the Speedpaint Starter Set you’ll find all the basic colours you need to begin painting beautiful tabletop-quality miniatures in no time. Simply apply one rich coat of Speedpaint directly over a primed miniature and you are done! All of the colours are using tried and true high-quality heavy pigments.
Combined with an innovative resin medium solution that flows perfectly over your miniatures creates an unparalleled painting solution to help you get more time for gaming."
That's how they're marketing them, that's how they intend them to be used. As such, I've got no interest in them but it's pretty straightforward.
If you click to "Instructions" it also says "If you wish to add layers or highlights with acrylic paints, like our Warpaints, we recommend applying a layer of our Anti-Shine Matt Varnish Spray or Airbrush Varnish first. If you do not plan to highlight your mini, use the varnish to seal in and protect all of those rich, one-coat colours and make your miniature tabletop-ready." - though I don't believe that was there when they first launched.
They're going to be slower if you're looking to apply other paints over the top of them, but that's not what they're intended for.
People keep saying that, but unless you can point out to me where AP specifically made a statement to that effect, you're just water carrying for a corporation and putting your assumptions out there retroactively.
I quoted it upthread, but it's the item description on the AP website:
https://shop.thearmypainter.com/us/wp8054p "The all-in-one Warpaint Speedpaint is truly a one-coat painting solution. In the Speedpaint Starter Set you’ll find all the basic colours you need to begin painting beautiful tabletop-quality miniatures in no time. Simply apply one rich coat of Speedpaint directly over a primed miniature and you are done! All of the colours are using tried and true high-quality heavy pigments.
Combined with an innovative resin medium solution that flows perfectly over your miniatures creates an unparalleled painting solution to help you get more time for gaming."
That's how they're marketing them, that's how they intend them to be used. As such, I've got no interest in them but it's pretty straightforward.
If you click to "Instructions" it also says "If you wish to add layers or highlights with acrylic paints, like our Warpaints, we recommend applying a layer of our Anti-Shine Matt Varnish Spray or Airbrush Varnish first. If you do not plan to highlight your mini, use the varnish to seal in and protect all of those rich, one-coat colours and make your miniature tabletop-ready." - though I don't believe that was there when they first launched.
They also posted this video just over two weeks ago once the reactivation issues became more widely known.
deano2099 wrote: "The all-in-one Warpaint Speedpaint is truly a one-coat painting solution. In the Speedpaint Starter Set you’ll find all the basic colours you need to begin painting beautiful tabletop-quality miniatures in no time. Simply apply one rich coat of Speedpaint directly over a primed miniature and you are done! All of the colours are using tried and true high-quality heavy pigments.
Combined with an innovative resin medium solution that flows perfectly over your miniatures creates an unparalleled painting solution to help you get more time for gaming."
That's how they're marketing them, that's how they intend them to be used. As such, I've got no interest in them but it's pretty straightforward.
...can anyone think of a model that would be completed with just 'one rich slap of paint'?
I mean, even necrons and nighthaunt need at least 5 different colors for acceptable results, and these are the most minimalist GW paint schemes...
Even if we generously assume they meant 'one rich slap of paint' on different parts of the model, inability to fix any errors or spillovers thanks to 'rich' application kind of clashes with this rosy picture. Especially seeing they are marketing it to new modellers who will make more of them.
deano2099 wrote: If you click to "Instructions" it also says "If you wish to add layers or highlights with acrylic paints, like our Warpaints, we recommend applying a layer of our Anti-Shine Matt Varnish Spray or Airbrush Varnish first. If you do not plan to highlight your mini, use the varnish to seal in and protect all of those rich, one-coat colours and make your miniature tabletop-ready." - though I don't believe that was there when they first launched.
Translation - "remember how we bragged it would be cheaper and faster than contrast? We lied. Be prepared to waste a lot of time, money and modelling supplies for our product to work like we promised it can (and how all the competing ones do)"
And nope, it wasn't there until weeks after real reviewers, not shameless shills like goober, tried it. Which makes it nice bait and switch as I can't believe painting company is incapable of spotting issues a lot of normal painters caught on the first try...
Has anyone tried just mixing in some contrast medium? How is the to AP "contrast" medium? I would suspect adding in more medium (how I like to use these paints as a smoother less grainy/blotchy/patchy wash) might fix the reactivation issues pretty okay. Like how adding PVA glue with future or whatever keeps it from reactivating with water and paint in the old magic wash recipes. Which I maintain are the precursors to all these new contrast paints btw..
I mean, even necrons and nighthaunt need at least 5 different colors for acceptable results, and these are the most minimalist GW paint schemes...
A basic Necron scheme would need a base spray of silver, and a wash of green over relevant parts. Give the silver a wash of black of you really want to.
That would give you a simple tabletop scheme. It wouldn't win you any awards, but it would be on par with (or better than) the models that a lot of gamers are already using.
Translation - "remember how we bragged it would be cheaper and faster than contrast?
Translation - "remember how we bragged it would be cheaper and faster than contrast?
Did they?
It was mostly the shills on YT saying that.
One area I'd love to see contrasts compared to speed paints is painting a model dark brown, drybrushing it white, then applying either speed paint or contrast. I think that's a usage scenario that could look quite good for only slightly more time input than prime white -> ink.
I’m pretty excited to use these for all the non-hero miniatures. One coat of paint and done? Nice. I like how the mini a page or two back came out. If mine look close to that good I’ll be happy.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’m pretty excited to use these for all the non-hero miniatures. One coat of paint and done? Nice. I like how the mini a page or two back came out. If mine look close to that good I’ll be happy.
It's no different to what you could have achieved with Contrast paints for the last two years.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’m pretty excited to use these for all the non-hero miniatures. One coat of paint and done? Nice. I like how the mini a page or two back came out. If mine look close to that good I’ll be happy.
It's no different to what you could have achieved with Contrast paints for the last two years.
And some would argue it's very similar to what you could have achieved with inks for the last three decades.
And nope, it wasn't there until weeks after real reviewers, not shameless shills like goober, tried it. Which makes it nice bait and switch as I can't believe painting company is incapable of spotting issues a lot of normal painters caught on the first try...
That's where it gets complicated to be honest. When the question of what "when did Army Painter say it only works this way?" came up I did some digging and the reality was that Army Painter themselves put out very little in terms of announcing the thing *themselves*. They had clearly sent a press release to a bunch of sites and bloggers and YouTubers, but that release wasn't even put up on their own website as a news article. They did one video but it was more "how we came up with this" rather than "what it does". So all the news announcing this came from third parties and they started plugging it as a "Contrast killer" or whatever. Nothing from AP themselves made that claim, but equally by putting out no announcement themselves, they'd kind of encouraging it.
I stand by the fact that if you actually go through AP's own coverage and claims around the paints, they are focused entirely on "one coat" and the speed painting element. They've never claimed that they're for any other use. But then they've put out so little, and have also been happy for other folk to make those claims for them.
I tried GW's contrast paint to one step my Emporer's Children in purple. First problem their purple was more red than blue. So then I had to wash the figure in blue to get the correct shade. Then I tried priming the figure blue and applying the contrast. It worked somewhat but I still needed to wash over it to get to purple. All I'm saying is that contrast paints are not the be all end all in one coat painting. I may give the army painter speed paint a try when I next need some figures painted.
deano2099 wrote: I stand by the fact that if you actually go through AP's own coverage and claims around the paints, they are focused entirely on "one coat" and the speed painting element. They've never claimed that they're for any other use.
In my mind, being able to paint over another paint is such a basic feature of acrylic paints that you wouldn't expect it to be explicitly stated, rather if it is unsuitable for that purpose then there should be a disclaimer as such.
Like, you don't see in car advertisements "And it can be driven in the rain!" because that's just assumed in the modern world that a car can be driven in the rain.
Acrylic paints dry fast and you can paint over them. That's just how they work.
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Leo_the_Rat wrote: I tried GW's contrast paint to one step my Emporer's Children in purple. First problem their purple was more red than blue. So then I had to wash the figure in blue to get the correct shade. Then I tried priming the figure blue and applying the contrast. It worked somewhat but I still needed to wash over it to get to purple. All I'm saying is that contrast paints are not the be all end all in one coat painting. I may give the army painter speed paint a try when I next need some figures painted.
I'd argue that "one coat painting" is a somewhat unachievable goal unless your standards are very low or in a few very specific cases where being monochromatic is the goal, because contrasts or speed paints or whatever will always end up monochrome where as you'll almost always want some amount of colour variation.
So either starting with a coloured undercoat or applying additional layers of washes, edge highlights, etc are usually desirable and don't add much to the painting time.
I'd argue that "one coat painting" is a somewhat unachievable goal unless your standards are very low or in a few very specific cases where being monochromatic is the goal, because contrasts or speed paints or whatever will always end up monochrome where as you'll almost always want some amount of colour variation.
So either starting with a coloured undercoat or applying additional layers of washes, edge highlights, etc are usually desirable and don't add much to the painting time.
There are a lot of gamers out there right now painting a base colour and throwing a wash over it and calling it done. Speedpaints take that from two steps to one, by removing the need for the separate wash layer. Hence the 'one coat solution'.
There are a lot of other gamers out there just painting base colours and calling it done. Speedpaint will potentially give these people better results for the same painting time.
Not everyone is interested in applying multiple wash layers or edge highlights. And an awful lot will be more than happy to not need to apply edge highlights.
I'll still be picking up these paints, as I like GW contrast, but hate the bottles as I find it a total faff to mix colours using their pop top lids.
Hence I was quite excited by AP speedpaint as I immediately thought of how easy it would be to create great tones and precise mixtures using a contrast type paint in a dropper bottle!
Obviously the re-activation issue is a giant ball-drop. No point in pretending otherwise. Even the most novice of painter wouldn't like the idea of being told, "Look you don't need more than one coat because it looks fine, but even if you did want more than one coat, you can't do it without messing your model up."
Thats not a quirk or idiosyncrasy, its just an error in product development that obviously got discovered beyond the point of no return.
As someone whose just a punter, I have no idea how something like that happens? They never thought to try painting over their own colour range to see what happens? Such as using the grey over a white prime and then adding a blue on top of that?
As someone whose just a punter, I have no idea how something like that happens? They never thought to try painting over their own colour range to see what happens? Such as using the grey over a white prime and then adding a blue on top of that?
It's quite likely they did, but had the models sitting long enough between coats that it wasn't an issue. The actual curing time seems to be highly dependent on local conditions. They showed a model that had been sitting overnight in their office, and it had no apparent reactivation. Others have mentioned it still being an issue after a week. So most likely triggered by humidity and temperature, and also affected differently by different brands of sprays.
For me worst part of reactivation is that it screws even one coat solution like i can do with contrast. Can't touch up.
A) don't remember when i haven't done mistake and botched paint stroke at wrong part
B) if i need to either be careful to not or varnish in between(and o this if i do slip) then...well bye bye speed painting, it goes from fast one coat solution to slow one coat solution.
So we are left with slower solution whose selling point is price, not quality.
deano2099 wrote: I stand by the fact that if you actually go through AP's own coverage and claims around the paints, they are focused entirely on "one coat" and the speed painting element. They've never claimed that they're for any other use.
In my mind, being able to paint over another paint is such a basic feature of acrylic paints that you wouldn't expect it to be explicitly stated, rather if it is unsuitable for that purpose then there should be a disclaimer as such.
Like, you don't see in car advertisements "And it can be driven in the rain!" because that's just assumed in the modern world that a car can be driven in the rain.
Acrylic paints dry fast and you can paint over them. That's just how they work.
While that's fair, I'd also note that at no point in AP's product description are they even called acrylic paints. For that matter they're not even called paint. It's always "SpeedPaint"
I could see myself using these, to be fair. Get a bunch of basic troops tabletop-ready with Speedpaint, varnish, potentially come back later to add highlights if I can be bothered. But that still feels like an edge case, really.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I could see myself using these, to be fair. Get a bunch of basic troops tabletop-ready with Speedpaint, varnish, potentially come back later to add highlights if I can be bothered. But that still feels like an edge case, really.
Can see this working very well for swarms of little tyranids. Prime, one coat, gloss varnish.
Agreed, though I've tended to just use a couple of colours of Contrast for the same purpose.
I think for me the edge case is troops with large areas of hard inorganic armour. Speedpaint is definitely superior there.
BUT, I have a full range of Contrast paints and use them daily. The same colours that make for cool, crabby-looking Nids also work well as hair colours for humans, or jumpsuit colours for space dwarfs, among many other uses. Whereas I'd probably buy specific colours of Speedpaint for specific troop armour painting.
deano2099 wrote: I stand by the fact that if you actually go through AP's own coverage and claims around the paints, they are focused entirely on "one coat" and the speed painting element. They've never claimed that they're for any other use.
In my mind, being able to paint over another paint is such a basic feature of acrylic paints that you wouldn't expect it to be explicitly stated, rather if it is unsuitable for that purpose then there should be a disclaimer as such.
Like, you don't see in car advertisements "And it can be driven in the rain!" because that's just assumed in the modern world that a car can be driven in the rain.
Acrylic paints dry fast and you can paint over them. That's just how they work.
While that's fair, I'd also note that at no point in AP's product description are they even called acrylic paints. For that matter they're not even called paint. It's always "SpeedPaint"
I could probably take my comment a step further and say that every miniature hobby paint on the market is an acrylic and the only ones that aren't are clearly labelled as such (e.g. enamels from AK, oils from Abteilung, they're very clearly advertised as being what they are).
Basically, my point is there's a certain expectation that a product will behave in a certain way because that is by far the norm, so when people read "one coat solution" they don't tend to think "a right pain in the arse if you want more than one coat".
Ian Sturrock wrote: I could see myself using these, to be fair. Get a bunch of basic troops tabletop-ready with Speedpaint, varnish, potentially come back later to add highlights if I can be bothered. But that still feels like an edge case, really.
Can see this working very well for swarms of little tyranids. Prime, one coat, gloss varnish.
In my experience, tyranids actually have a lot of big flat or gently surfaces that lack fine detail on them, so I'm not sure Contrasts or SpeedPaints are the way to go with them. My Tyranids are primed white followed by a brown wash, and it was surprisingly difficult to avoid stain marks and keep them looking smooth.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I could see myself using these, to be fair. Get a bunch of basic troops tabletop-ready with Speedpaint, varnish, potentially come back later to add highlights if I can be bothered. But that still feels like an edge case, really.
Funnily enough, that's pretty much exactly what GW used to recommend, just without the Speedpaint, obviously.
While that's fair, I'd also note that at no point in AP's product description are they even called acrylic paints. For that matter they're not even called paint. It's always "SpeedPaint"
I could probably take my comment a step further and say that every miniature hobby paint on the market is an acrylic and the only ones that aren't are clearly labelled as such (e.g. enamels from AK, oils from Abteilung, they're very clearly advertised as being what they are).
Basically, my point is there's a certain expectation that a product will behave in a certain way because that is by far the norm, so when people read "one coat solution" they don't tend to think "a right pain in the arse if you want more than one coat".
Again, I sort of agree with you but playing devil's advocate a bit: Army Painter's big entry into the hobby miniature's world was their oil-based dip/wash. As much as GW are the company that get tarred with making everything about them, and making paints designed to work with their own stylised way of painting, AP have always done that too, to an even greater extent. You buy any big set of paints from them back in the early 2010s and you get a booklet with the "Army Painter method" which was basecoat, dip and anti-shine varnish.
Contrast has been great for certain models, but not a solution for everything. I've painted a lot of Seraphon with them and they look outstanding.
They just happen to be pretty poor for GW's most popular line of miniatures: Space Marines.
For other minis they work "good enough" and mostly as advertised. Especially for board game minis.
At this point after reviews I'd only even consider Speedpaint for some color that I can't get with Contrast. I really don't use so much of the stuff that the price difference would sway me. I've continuously had poor performance from Army Painter paints, but I do like their wet palette. I think the only paint I use from them anymore is their black since it's in a dropper bottle and I can buy it at my FLGS.
As someone whose just a punter, I have no idea how something like that happens? They never thought to try painting over their own colour range to see what happens? Such as using the grey over a white prime and then adding a blue on top of that?
It's quite likely they did, but had the models sitting long enough between coats that it wasn't an issue. The actual curing time seems to be highly dependent on local conditions. They showed a model that had been sitting overnight in their office, and it had no apparent reactivation. Others have mentioned it still being an issue after a week. So most likely triggered by humidity and temperature, and also affected differently by different brands of sprays.
If you're talking about this from their twitter account, then it was painted on a Monday afternoon and then again sometime near midday on Wednesday so it had almost 48 hours to cure, not 'overnight'.
Being unable to do basic things like paint buttons/buckles over something you slopped the speedpaint on makes it seem essentially useless. Saving a few bucks to spend a lot more time to get essentially the same result is a poor trade unless you're just that broke.
It's odd, but contrast has increased the quality of my painting by allowing for fully shaded and highlighted minis to be done within a fast timescale.
One thing I picked up from the excellent 'eavy contrast videos on youtube is that sometimes a mid-grey primer and contrast gives an excellent dark, shaded finish that is the perfect base to highlight up from with darker minis.
Doing some orks at the moment and it's working out brilliantly - grey primer, metal in bright silver then black templar over clothes and metal, gore-grunta for straps and pouches, militarum green on skin and it's then ready to build up with edge highlights and glazing which I have the time to do thanks to the contrast basecoat stage being insanely fast.
The best thing about contrast has never been the one-coat style of painting, but the acceleration of the generally very tedious basecoat + shade stage, saving time for the more enjoyable process of highlighting. So, from that perspective speedpaint misses the mark quite a bit.
insaniak wrote: My point was that the people these paints are primarily aimed at aren't particularly concerned with touch-ups
I'm extremely concerned with touchups. I want a clean paint job that looks good but doesn't take 4-5 layers to basecoat, which I used to do with many colors. You can slap on 1 thick coat for the nice contrast effect, or 2-3 thin coats and have it look like a normal paint job.
kodos wrote: if you are the one who paints buttons, you are not the target group anyway
To me that's a problem. The target group is so small you need a sniper rifle to hit it.
If you care about painting fast, but would actually fix a mistake, then you're not the target group. If you are painting a model where it would be faster to do an over all ink first then come back and paint in the details (like the Space Marine armour joints or heraldry on the shield of a knight), then you're not in the target group. If you want to paint fast but think a one coat solution looks too plain and would like to add a bit more contrast with a targetted wash or edge highlight, then you're not in the target group.
kodos wrote: if you are the one who paints buttons, you are not the target group anyway
As near as I can tell, the target seems to be those who can't paint, don't care, have exactly $4 per paint pot, and the need to slop a single color on a scaly/hairy model for the sole purpose of demonstrating what the color looks like.
The savings over contrast aren't enough to deal with the hassle. It reminds me of buying a car with no windshield wipers and bragging you saved a few bucks. Just pay the slightly higher price and get the real thing.
I was hopeful this would be new colors, because a few contrast colors look kind of crappy (all purple, dark blue, dark brown), but Dana Howls video shows they essentially look just like contrast.
deano2099 wrote: I stand by the fact that if you actually go through AP's own coverage and claims around the paints, they are focused entirely on "one coat" and the speed painting element. They've never claimed that they're for any other use.
In my mind, being able to paint over another paint is such a basic feature of acrylic paints that you wouldn't expect it to be explicitly stated, rather if it is unsuitable for that purpose then there should be a disclaimer as such.
Like, you don't see in car advertisements "And it can be driven in the rain!" because that's just assumed in the modern world that a car can be driven in the rain.
Acrylic paints dry fast and you can paint over them. That's just how they work.
Is THAT why my car disintegrated around me this afternoon when I was coming home? Makes sense now. Clearly, my own fault.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: Except I would have had to pay more and give GW money to use Contrast paints. I’ve been using Vallejo and Army Painter for years.
I've been painting over the speed paints fine, I'm in the process of dialling down the drying time, I've been applying them, leaving them for at least 8 hours and painting over again with no issues at all. They just take a lot longer to dry than contrast.
Now, this is a problem with the idea of them being 'speed paints', you can't speed paint a unit with them if you want to use additional techniques in a quick time at all - well you can, but what I mean more is you can't paint a unit in a morning to be used that afternoon if you want to layer over the contrast - but they are fine once they dry, no issues at all.
Now, this is a problem with the idea of them being 'speed paints', you can't speed paint a unit with them if you want to use additional techniques in a quick time at all - well you can, but what I mean more is you can't paint a unit in a morning to be used that afternoon if you want to layer over the contrast - but they are fine once they dry, no issues at all.
To an extent, this is true of any washes - they're faster to apply than doing shading manually, but then you have that pesky drying time.
Exactly how long that drying time needs to be with Speedpaint is still the big unknown.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I've been painting over the speed paints fine, I'm in the process of dialling down the drying time, I've been applying them, leaving them for at least 8 hours and painting over again with no issues at all. They just take a lot longer to dry than contrast.
Now, this is a problem with the idea of them being 'speed paints', you can't speed paint a unit with them if you want to use additional techniques in a quick time at all - well you can, but what I mean more is you can't paint a unit in a morning to be used that afternoon if you want to layer over the contrast - but they are fine once they dry, no issues at all.
What primer are you using? I've waited 24 hours, applied a bit of water via brush, and the color reactivated.
I have ordered the smaller "Speed paint" set just to give them a try, so will report back with my findings as they should be delivered in a day or two.
I have really enjoyed using Contrast for certain miniatures, it just has to be the right kind of miniature. And one thing a lot of people do not seem to do is mix contrast paints to create their own colours, so excited to see how the Speed Paint works in that regard.
Take my Lugganath Eldar, their armour is a 50/50 mix of Gryph Hound Orange and Iyanden Yellow with a touch of medium to get the colour I wanted:
I have really enjoyed using Contrast for certain miniatures, it just has to be the right kind of miniature. And one thing a lot of people do not seem to do is mix contrast paints to create their own colours, so excited to see how the Speed Paint works in that regard.
Same, I do it all the time.
It was more luck than skill but this perfect skintone was, I believe, a variable mix of Scale75 Phoenix Egg, Phoenix Feather and a drop of GW Voluptious Pink.
Azazel, thanks for the wash recipe. I’ll check it out if I don’t like the speed paints I’ve already bought. Hopefully I will get a chance to use them sometime this month.
I’ve been using washes since the days of Future Floor Wax, so I’m used to waiting a day for my minis to dry before moving onto the next step. A lot of the negatives I’m hearing just don’t apply to me.
I love to mix contrast paints and washes as well, so my excitement for speedpaints is exactly that: a huge range of colours in easy to use dropper bottles.
Always found mixing contrast paints to be rather user-unfriendly. Looking forward to playing with the Speedpaint blues and yellows to see what I can come up with!
> Azazel, thanks for the wash recipe. I’ll check it out if I don’t like the speed paints I’ve already bought. Hopefully I will get a chance to use them sometime this month.
I've been using Les Bursley's wash recipe for years, primarily on terrain. Interestingly enough, the components you use for both Goobertown Hobbies "not contrast" and Les Bursley's wash are the same: matte medium, flow aid and water, and acrylic ink. GH's contrast recipe is actually even simpler than Les Bursley, and you can just dilute it with water (or water and 1/20 flow aid) to a wash. Secret Weapon Miniatures (out of business) had a wash line based on Les Bursley's wash, and I highly recommend their Stone wash, if you have dungeons to paint.
I recommend starting with LB's wash if you have a batchload of stone or wood to paint, and get a shot glass with measuring marks to mix and hold your wash in.
> I’ve been using washes since the days of Future Floor Wax, so I’m used to waiting a day for my minis to dry before moving onto the next step. A lot of the negatives I’m hearing just don’t apply to me.
I've found washes and hobby paints to take less than an hour to dry around here, so the negatives of Speedpaint apply even more to me!
> deano - others have already answered your points, so I'd just be repeating myself. And them.
Same ditto, including for the videos. And who else remembers RAID?
One thing I have not heard about Speed Paint is how "potent" they smell, an almost alcohol like smell from them.
First tests with them have gone well, a few bubbles when applying them that dissappear and make no difference to the finish once dried. Will see if I have any issues with reactivation today.
ced1106 wrote: > Azazel, thanks for the wash recipe. I’ll check it out if I don’t like the speed paints I’ve already bought. Hopefully I will get a chance to use them sometime this month.
I've been using Les Bursley's wash recipe for years, primarily on terrain. Interestingly enough, the components you use for both Goobertown Hobbies "not contrast" and Les Bursley's wash are the same: matte medium, flow aid and water, and acrylic ink. GH's contrast recipe is actually even simpler than Les Bursley, and you can just dilute it with water (or water and 1/20 flow aid) to a wash. Secret Weapon Miniatures (out of business) had a wash line based on Les Bursley's wash, and I highly recommend their Stone wash, if you have dungeons to paint.
Antimatter games (deepwars, shadowseas) has a similar recipe for their paint guides and when contrast paint came out he was talking in a FB about how similar contrast was to his particular mix.
After painting him I let him dry for 4-5 hours. Paint was surface dry at least, and I added some craft paint metal to the chain one the chainsaw. No issues I could detect. Let it dry a couple more hours and attempted to use a brush on acrylic varnish. The blue reactivated and made a mess. I let it dry, re-did the blue, let it dry a full day and used a spray varnish.
So, yes, I did have reactivation issues. Annoying but I can work around it.
I do like the colors and the 'one coat' shading. When I get to figures requiring face detail I think I'm going to try speed paint flesh, varnish, paint eyes/lips whatever. Am also prepared to do faces with normal acrylics but want to try the speedpaint method at least once.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I've been painting over the speed paints fine, I'm in the process of dialling down the drying time, I've been applying them, leaving them for at least 8 hours and painting over again with no issues at all. They just take a lot longer to dry than contrast.
Now, this is a problem with the idea of them being 'speed paints', you can't speed paint a unit with them if you want to use additional techniques in a quick time at all - well you can, but what I mean more is you can't paint a unit in a morning to be used that afternoon if you want to layer over the contrast - but they are fine once they dry, no issues at all.
What primer are you using? I've waited 24 hours, applied a bit of water via brush, and the color reactivated.
Just a really basic black spray from halfords (A car supply shop in the UK).
I'm wondering if those having issues are due to climate in some regards, and how hard brushes are and/or pressure. I genuinely don't think I could get anything to reactivate unless I scrubbed it with a brush, as opposed to paint with it.
I've heard this sort of thing works very well on BFG minis, which can have details too small to reasonably highlight and shade. I'll have to give it a try and see how it measures up compared to my usual.
BaronIveagh wrote: I've heard this sort of thing works very well on BFG minis, which can have details too small to reasonably highlight and shade. I'll have to give it a try and see how it measures up compared to my usual.
I dunno how well it works for inorganic models like that.
I used red contrast paint (flesh tearers from memory) for my Ork Aeronautica Imperialis squadron, but partly because that's a case where looking a bit messy is totally fine.
CptJake wrote: I painted up Boxcar willie with Speedpaint.
Spoiler:
After painting him I let him dry for 4-5 hours. Paint was surface dry at least, and I added some craft paint metal to the chain one the chainsaw. No issues I could detect. Let it dry a couple more hours and attempted to use a brush on acrylic varnish. The blue reactivated and made a mess. I let it dry, re-did the blue, let it dry a full day and used a spray varnish.
So, yes, I did have reactivation issues. Annoying but I can work around it.
I do like the colors and the 'one coat' shading. When I get to figures requiring face detail I think I'm going to try speed paint flesh, varnish, paint eyes/lips whatever. Am also prepared to do faces with normal acrylics but want to try the speedpaint method at least once.
Thank you again for posting these experiences. Also seems like speedpaint works best if you have a neat hand to start with, at least.
Favorite Speedpaint video so far linked below. Not mine.
What is mine, I finally got my hands on a basic starter and got a BB Wood Elf Wardancer painted up, loving it so far. The bleedthrough is a bigger issue than reactivation for me, but I think it's a feature not a bug. Carefully blocking in colors is the hard part, but once down the reactivation-issue means you can highlight with white (or any bright version of the same color) and it bleeds down to a bright colored highlight, like overhighlighting then glazing back down used to be. I don't have a really pink skintone like the Crusader Skin (all of mine are a bit more yellow), my closest was Stynelrenze Flesh primer, but I was pleasantly surprised when the bleedthrough tinted it into the correct color for highlights, then highlighted again with white Stynelrenze Primer that also bled into bright pinkish flesh higher highlights. Occasionally the white was too bright (on the Orc Flesh green cloth) and a thinned AP Speedpaint over that knocked it back down just like a traditional glaze. Sure, you'll need to varnish before details are painted like buttons and shoelaces etc, but overall I got some really great results and it was SUPER quick. Not -quite- one and done like the ads, in fact nowhere near, I love this as a base to highlight from, but it's so far much more controllable and far less splotchy than Contrast. I do think AP Speedpaint works better than Contrast for how I specifically paint models (techniques will vary). I'm LOVING 1 drop Zealot Yellow to 3 drops Pallid Bone for blonde hair, then thin edge highlight of white that turns yellowy-creamy-off-white is amazing.
My biggest disappointment is there's no black or white in the small starter, would have preferred either over the orange since we also got a yellow and a red in it. A darker brown than leather would have been nice, but mixing in gravelord grey darkened it nicely enough to separate the leather from wood. Mostly I'm just disappointed that it's april and I can't buy them individually quite yet, except direct. Boo. Also, all my Contrast pots are opened and at least partially used, so I can't return them. Also Boo.
They still don't seem to be available in Australia.
I did lose a bit of interest with the reactivation stuff, though one application I'm interested in is to see how well they can be blended from one colour to another.
I quite like this effect, but this is also a really "easy" model for contrasts or speed paints alike, I'm interested in how hard it would be to achieve something like this on a cleaner but less detailed/textured model.
I've also seen some videos of people using it to paint flowing robes and capes and in that application I think "one coat and done" technique is rather lacking.
Albertorius wrote: Still doing tests, now with more textured stuff (a victrix viking), but honestly, as a one-coat solution, so far it's working pretty well...
I'd love to see someone try doing a dark brown primer, drybrushed white, then hit with speed paints. Or maybe a contrasting colour primer depending on what colours are being used.
I’m working on some getting some minis primed green. Then I’ll try drybrushing yellow or white and hitting them with green, blue, purple and red to see what happens.
I tried out the speed paints on a few minis I had primed, as well as on two dwarfs painted silver and on two Bones minis that had not been under coated. The mummy had been base coated in glossy white for reasons I can’t remember.
My initial thoughts are that the yellow, brown, green and blue stood out as the most satisfactory, especially the yellow (compared to how much I hate painting yellow). The red coated well, but didn’t have a lot of depth…so I’ll likely use it over something drybrushed. The orange shaded well, but is darker and duller than I’d like. The purple had issues on the Bones, although my brush may have been wet, I dunno. The bone color can work as dirty cloth, but not as white. The green and blue look sharp over metal. The flesh tone was fussy to use.
Tomorrow (schedule permitting) I will try some drybrushing over the paints.
Albertorius wrote: Still doing tests, now with more textured stuff (a victrix viking), but honestly, as a one-coat solution, so far it's working pretty well...
Wow, watched the video from Swords and Brushes - the experiment in using these for chipping effects was really cool. Really enjoyable video from a creator I'd not seen before. I'm glad to have these paints in my basement of shame - but they don't seem like a replacement for anything really.
Another test, to check some more options. In this case I used one of March's sculpts from the Anvil Digital Forge PAtreon:
Spoiler:
In this case I applied speed paint white to all of the mini and after it dried I added the rest of the colors, to see how much of a problem would the reactivation be for me. So far, I'm happy enough with it.
After adding the rest of the paint I sealed it and washed it all over with Agrax Earthshade.
dan2026 wrote: Do people have a recommendation of a matte varnish spray to use with speed paints?
I have only used brush on varnish.
I like Army Painter's a lot. IME it usually dries decently matte, which is what I prefer.
Many years ago I bought a can of Army Painter anti-shine and found it to be way too shiny, even shaking it like mad and following the directions for the correct spraying distance.
Maybe I just got a bad can. I have been using Testors Dull Cote instead, but my supply is running low, I'll try Tamiya or Gunze's offering next as I like most Tamiya and Gunze products, but haven't tried their rattle can clears yet (have used their airbrush clears and was pretty happy with those).
agreed, spectacular result on that mini, especially on the hair and face/skin - if I can do that by painting on one or two coats of speedpaint without even having to think about it then they are worth their weight in gold for that alone.
Probably picking up my Mega set tomorrow. My hope is that I'll be able to paint my 4 Arachnaroks with it, I'd like to "Contrast" them up fast, but actual Contrast dries too fast to do such a large model.
lord_blackfang wrote: Probably picking up my Mega set tomorrow. My hope is that I'll be able to paint my 4 Arachnaroks with it, I'd like to "Contrast" them up fast, but actual Contrast dries too fast to do such a large model.
Try mixing in a bit of Vallejo Airbrush Flow Improver. I've found that it helps a lot to get smoother results and extend the dry time in contrast paints.
Rough. We got ours in yesterday, but along with the super late mini set, so those who preordered that one because it was supposed to be out earlier than the mega set are SOL
chaos0xomega wrote: My local store says that the Mega Set shipment is stock on a container in port somewhere, nobody in the US is able to get them in stock at the moment.
That is a big fat lie,
Several stores in my area got them
I really tried to speed paint these guys (probably an evening's painting, about an hour in all). I can say the yellow and purple are great for anyone using those colours (I used purple, light grey and yellow here).
Mini on the far left I used Contrast pink. The brown and skin colour is also Contrast. From my very limited efforts, I would say it feels like the paint is slightly thicker than contrast. I had to touch up the purple in a couple of places, otherwise it was all single coat.
I've got to do about 20 of these guys for a couple of Necromunda campaign games for an arbiter controlled narrative event (they are Slaaneshi cultists) after which they will probably be put in a box labelled 'Miscellaneous' and never used again! So have to say for this kind of thing, these paints are ideal.
chaos0xomega wrote: My local store says that the Mega Set shipment is stock on a container in port somewhere, nobody in the US is able to get them in stock at the moment.
That is a big fat lie,
Several stores in my area got them
Are you sure they got the mega paint set and not the starter set? Because the starter sets are available widely, I have yet to see or hear of anyone in the US being able to grab the mega set from their locals or even US based online sellers (trust me, I've been looking).
chaos0xomega wrote: My local store says that the Mega Set shipment is stock on a container in port somewhere, nobody in the US is able to get them in stock at the moment.
That is a big fat lie,
Several stores in my area got them
Are you sure they got the mega paint set and not the starter set? Because the starter sets are available widely, I have yet to see or hear of anyone in the US being able to grab the mega set from their locals or even US based online sellers (trust me, I've been looking).
I bought a speed paint starter set at Adepticon (because I waited too long and that's all that was left) and on the drive home picked up a Speedpaint Mega Set at either Little Big Wars in Fargo, or Source Comics and Games in Minneapolis. (I shop on the way home from Adepticon due to a lack of local game stores where I'm currently at, and I'd have to check my receipts to know for sure which store I got it at.)
Still waiting for my original preorder. Apparently expected arrival into Oz is now late May. Tempted to order some from overseas in the interim, as it would likely get here quicker.
chaos0xomega wrote: My local store says that the Mega Set shipment is stock on a container in port somewhere, nobody in the US is able to get them in stock at the moment.
That is a big fat lie,
Several stores in my area got them
Are you sure they got the mega paint set and not the starter set? Because the starter sets are available widely, I have yet to see or hear of anyone in the US being able to grab the mega set from their locals or even US based online sellers (trust me, I've been looking).
insaniak wrote: Still waiting for my original preorder. Apparently expected arrival into Oz is now late May. Tempted to order some from overseas in the interim, as it would likely get here quicker.
There's a shop in Melbourne that has starter sets (not the mega set or individuals). But the guy in the shop commented that he had them shipped from a UK supplier, not the Australia based supplier because apparently the price difference was massive (which maybe explains why they're not much cheaper than contrasts over here).
For all my whinging, I grabbed a starter set and will give them a go, I want to see if they can blend or if it just ends up as a dark brown mess at the blend line.
I'm late to the party I know, but here's my first crack...
Trying to see how it goes with blending. It's not terrible for blending, but also not as easy as I was hoping. The "reactivation" doesn't really work well for blending since it doesn't reactivate smoothly, it reactivates in grainy chunks. So you have to mix them while they're still reasonably fresh. On the other hand, if you try and blend them too early they'll continue to bleed into each other after you've got them looking nice. For example, I had some nice vibrant yellows on his arm where the "flames" are, but the red bled into the yellow and while they are still kind of orange-ish they don't have the vibrant yellow as when I initially painted it.
I think it's easier to blend from light colours to dark colours (start with the yellow and go to red rather than starting from the red and going to the yellow).
I don't love the colour selection for the starter set, the purple is very dark, with a yellow and the red also including the orange isn't very valuable, a black would have been nice, maybe another brown.
It is easier to avoid coffee staining than it is with contrasts because of the slower drying time (though I never had a big problem with contrasts in that regard anyway). Most of the staining I got was when I tried to go back and correct something after it had started to dry.
For the amount of time it took it came out pretty well, I wasn't timing myself but it was maybe 10 to 15 minutes if I had to guess. I started with a brown primer (rattle can from Vallejo), drybrushed it white with a nice big brush, then hit it with the Army Painter.
I am trying to think of ways to bring more colour contrast into the speedpaint / contrast techniques, as I think that's a weakness of any 1 coat solution, the red just looks too, uniform I guess? If I were painting it traditionally I'd blend some blues and purples into the red especially around the shadows to give the skin some variation in colour, but not sure how to achieve that with the speedpaints.
Maybe in the drybrush stage different colours could be used (e.g. white, light grey, beige) in different areas to create contrast after the speed paint is applied, but I dunno if it'd show through.
I did feel like the speed paints I've used are "stronger" than the contrasts I've used, but I don't know if that applies to the whole range or just the specific colours I've tested. What I mean by that is the highlight areas are a bit more vibrant rather than feeling washed out like can happen with contrasts I've used. On the one hand that's good, on the other hand I wonder if these can't be controlled by using different coloured primers as much as contrasts could.
Another crack at blending, this time using blue/bone/purple.
The red contrast I used on the bloodletter is definitely nicer than the blue and the purple. The purple is very dark and harder to get smooth, I almost feel like it needs more medium or maybe it just needs to be a bit lighter in tone. The blue is somewhere in between in terms of how much I like/dislike it.
I am finding that different colours favour different types of blending techniques, and it's definitely not as easy as I hoped.
Blending the blue into the purple, I couldn't figure out a good way to do it, where the colours mix just becomes very dark if not approaching black. So instead of having a nice transition you end up with a dark line between the colours. That's if I tried blending with paint on my brush, if I tried blending with a clean brush it was almost the opposite problem where too much paint would be removed from the blend line and it'd become pale. Maybe somewhere in the middle it can be made to look nice, but I couldn't find that point.
Blending the blue into the bone wasn't too hard, the bone seems to dry slower than the blue so I found the easiest was to paint the bone first and have it cover a larger portion of the area than you want it to, then paint the blue over a slightly smaller area, clean the brush off then blend it by dragging some of the blue into the bone, but you need to clean the brush frequently. If you drag too much blue into the bone, you can pick up some fresh bone colour and drag it back into the blue. Not hard, but also not as easy and fast as I was hoping, this model probably took me about an hour to paint, which isn't terribly fast.
I am trying to think of ways to bring more colour contrast into the speedpaint / contrast techniques, as I think that's a weakness of any 1 coat solution, the red just looks too, uniform I guess? If I were painting it traditionally I'd blend some blues and purples into the red especially around the shadows to give the skin some variation in colour, but not sure how to achieve that with the speedpaints.
I've seen Sorastro pull this off on some of his Lord of the Rings Journeys in Middle Earth videos using Contrast by having or mixing up two different shades for the skin and more roughly blending them on the model while wet. Possibly a little flow air or drying retarder could increase drying time to make it more practical.
I am trying to think of ways to bring more colour contrast into the speedpaint / contrast techniques, as I think that's a weakness of any 1 coat solution, the red just looks too, uniform I guess? If I were painting it traditionally I'd blend some blues and purples into the red especially around the shadows to give the skin some variation in colour, but not sure how to achieve that with the speedpaints.
I've seen Sorastro pull this off on some of his Lord of the Rings Journeys in Middle Earth videos using Contrast by having or mixing up two different shades for the skin and more roughly blending them on the model while wet. Possibly a little flow air or drying retarder could increase drying time to make it more practical.
That looks really good. He does really well blending the contrasts out into the background colour so as to not end up with a tide mark where it finishes, I'll have to try that and see if I can emulate it.
Never used contrast before, got the Mega set of these from army painter. They feel... weird. Like painting with just washes. I like how they look on fantasy minis, but, not so much on sci fi
Pacific wrote: Those look great AllSeeingSkink... the Skink in particular came out really well, that's a lovely blue.
Cheers. I had considered doing a whole regiment of each but the Bloodletter is a bit too plain looking and the Saurus took a long time to paint. Might try another Bloodletter using a mix of purple and red rather than just pure red and see if it adds a bit more visual interest, and perhaps use a mix of grey/white/bone for the basecoat.
The Bloodletter was pretty quick to paint though I don't know if I'd recommend it as an army scheme just because the blending was fiddly, not really hard, but if you waited too long between applying one colour and the next then the blend could become a mess. I guess if you don't mind that risk then it's a good scheme for only a few minutes per model. It was a one-coat-wet-on-wet blend so it was super fast to do.
The Saurus I think took a long time to paint because I was trying to avoid the gold bits and claws for fear of having bleeding issues when painting over them, if I do more I'll probably just paint straight over those with the blue and wait a few days before doing the gold/claws to avoid bleeding. Maybe also only blend the face rather than blending the whole way down his body.
So far, I've found purple doesn't blend easily into blue, but blue blends into bone, red blends into orange/yellow, purple kinda blends into red but I haven't tried it over a larger area.
Just seen a suggestion on YT that the reactivation issue can be avoided if you thin regular acrylic with speedpaint medium. It's apparently the water that's the issue, so this, along with ensuring your brush isn't too wet after rinsing.
Can't test myself as I've yet to take the plunge, but others may wish to try.
Also adding a splash of regular white or off white to a Speedpaint to create a more opaque highlight shade works as well.
Finally got my hands on the Speedpaint Starter Set, and had a play with some Epirian SecDef models.
There's a walkthrough of the painting process here.
Overall, I'm a fan. Super quick and easy. The reactivation was largely not an issue, other than the yellow on the mortar - I think because I had put a coat of white over the Gravelord Grey spillover, but didn't wait for the white to fully dry before applying the yellow. Other than that, it dried quickly and touching up spillover with white (using the above linked tip of not watering it down!) worked just fine.
Azreal13 wrote: Just seen a suggestion on YT that the reactivation issue can be avoided if you thin regular acrylic with speedpaint medium. It's apparently the water that's the issue, so this, along with ensuring your brush isn't too wet after rinsing.
Can't test myself as I've yet to take the plunge, but others may wish to try.
Also adding a splash of regular white or off white to a Speedpaint to create a more opaque highlight shade works as well.
Interesting, I can't test that because I only have the starter set which doesn't come with the medium and I haven't seen anyone selling individual pots yet.
BUT, Goobertown in one of his earlier videos said reactivation was an issue *specifically* when he put medium on his brush and rubbed it around a little bit.
Another thing I've noticed with them, even if you paint within the lines, sometimes (not always) as it dries it will bleed into the next colour, and even if you paint a regular acrylic next to a speed paint (again, trying to paint within the lines) then sometimes the regular acrylic will be drawn into the speed paint. Sometimes this is fine as it may just create a dark line between the colours, other times it's annoying if one colour dominates the other and just makes it look like you were sloppy in your application. I'm sure it'd be solved by waiting X days for the paint to fully cure or varnish it first, but that's not an issue I want to be dealing with on something I'm trying to paint quickly. I think Goobertown avoided this by using is "prime black, drybrush, then apply speed paints in thin coats" method rather than the "one coat and done" method.
After playing around with these some more, I have to say that I also really like the brush that came with the starter set. No idea how long it will last, but it's fantastic to use with the Speedpaint - large enough to hold a reasonable amount of paint (larger than I would have thought to go for, honestly) but with a good point for when you want to get into tricky areas.
insaniak wrote: After playing around with these some more, I have to say that I also really like the brush that came with the starter set. No idea how long it will last, but it's fantastic to use with the Speedpaint - large enough to hold a reasonable amount of paint (larger than I would have thought to go for, honestly) but with a good point for when you want to get into tricky areas.
I think it's just a #6 Round, if you want another. I've been alternating between #6, #2, and my usual #1 rounds depending on surface area on the figure.
As for Speedpaint medium. It may very well be just Liquitex Matte Medium, or the Danish equivalent as the sets say "Made in Denmark." I've used liquitex with regular acrylics and Speedpaint, and it has been fine. Anyway, it's cheaper to buy a big bottle of liquitex instead of the equivalent in the tiny bottles.
As for Speedpaint reactivation, I've not had that problem, but I do live in an arid area with low humidity. My problems are usually small amounts of paint drying before I can apply it (like for eyes). Matte Medium makes a difference there.
I like how they don't half-dry and smear during painting like Contrast does, but bleeding has been godawful for me and paint even runs up models through capillary action so control is basically zilch. I'm painting some Arachnaroks with them but they'll be useless for man sized models.
chaos0xomega wrote: still can't get my hands on it, local store is saying its been recalled due to reactivation?
I can't find anything about a recall, but I did find THIS from about two and a half weeks ago:
Army Painter posted a statement on the delays for their Speedpaint Mega Set on Friday April 22nd via their Facebook Page, we shared the statement on our Facebook Page too. Basically the transport truck carrying thousands of bottles of the Speedpaints was in an accident and the paints were a total loss, luckily the drive was ok.
Army Painter is now allocating the sets as they get them built and sent out, so we're getting small quantities every other week or so. All retailers are dealing with this same problem and we are filling customer orders on a first ordered first filled basis. With the current situation there is no exact ETA as you can see by Army Painters statement they've got all hands on deck trying to get these paint sets built and sent out to everyone.
With that... we would like to thank everyone that pre-ordered with us, it won't be to much longer now so hang in there. If you would like to pre-order a Speedpaint Mega Set you can click on the below link to pre-order your set and we'll ship it as soon as we're able to. All pre-orders under the "2nd Wave" will ship after al the current customers pre-orders are filled that don't say "2nd Wave".
chaos0xomega wrote: still can't get my hands on it, local store is saying its been recalled due to reactivation?
Not heard anything about a recall. My local store had some starter sets, they've sold out now and have had no additional stock. No mega sets and no individual pots, I haven't been able to get my hands on the medium to even try it.
Recently I purchased four more Speedpaints, and here are my opinions.
Grim Black: This is what Gravelord Grey should have been. A black stain which does mute the primer underneath. Flows well. Still, it's really a stain, and not for use when you need a solid black area.
Magic Blue: A vibrant medium blue, and my favorite of the four just purchased. Smooth flow unlike Talassar Blue Contrast which is the closest Contrast that I own.
Absolution Green: A good forest green color. Doesn't flow quite as well as the above which left some tiny white spots that I had to go over.
Purple Alchemy: This is disappointing. While I like the color, which is a match for Tyrian purple, it behaves like Contrast paint in all the BAD ways; basically half-drying and smearing mid brush stroke. It also chips easily. Since I like the color, I'll try again but with added medium to improve the flow. I also had the thought of mixing with Hivelord purple which works fine, but doesn't contrast enough for my taste.
EDIT #1: Have tried using Purple Alchemy with Liquidtex matte medium at a 3:1 ratio (speedpaint : medium). The flow is greatly improved, and there's no repeat of half-drying and smearing mid brush stroke. Don't know if it solves the chipping problem as that's not something I really want to test. [I varnish my figures anyway, so if the figure avoids damage until then, it's good.]
Since their intended use is apparently to just dunk the whole model in a single colour, I assume this will be Rainbow Speedpaint, with all pigments in one bottle. Anyone who doesn't like the result is just using it wrong.
Unless the big reveal includes the fact that they've fixed the reactivation issue, it's difficult to be too excited about it now that there are seemingly better alternatives on the horizon, to be honest.
I miss the days when there was actually a new paint out and the news & rumors was "new paint is out, you should try it!"
Now we have months-long announcements that some new revolutionary paint is in developement and you too can buy it in just 6 months time! And now we have announcements for announcements, because we can't announce anything just yet. For paint. For PAINT!!!
Just release the new fething paints so we can try em, I'm so tired of companies trying to hype up paints like this
Kalamadea wrote: I miss the days when there was actually a new paint out and the news & rumors was "new paint is out, you should try it!"
Now we have months-long announcements that some new revolutionary paint is in developement and you too can buy it in just 6 months time! And now we have announcements for announcements, because we can't announce anything just yet. For paint. For PAINT!!!
Just release the new fething paints so we can try em, I'm so tired of companies trying to hype up paints like this
When attention span economics is what makes the money, and not actually buying the product is what makes the money, then we end up where we are.
And because attention spans are so short these days, in order to sell enough units on launch day, they can’t let anyone forget for even a second. I don’t like this modern marketing approach either, but just like any other advertising or hype, it’s pretty easy to ignore.
If you miss the days of going to your LGS and finding out about new stuff, then simply stop looking for new games, paints, miniatures or whatever online.
It’s what I’ve begun doing, and man does the LGS feel like a place worth visiting again.
I have the advantage of online prices being no cheaper for me, so supporting my local store as become much easier. So ignore the hype and find out about stuff in the real world when its released. It’s making my hobby experiences much more refreshing and invigorating. And this helps me stay invested in the hobby too.
Sorry to take it so off topic but I had to respond to this since I felt the same way just a short time ago.
Unplug and ignore the hype, and discover what it feels like to find new stuff in a store again. It feels great.
As for the Speedpaints? I’ll wait for the Vallejo ones. Contrast is $9.50 a pot up here, and I just don’t like Army Painter products, aside from dark and strong tone washes so they’re an easy pass for me. I know Vallejo will be reasonably priced, and droppers work so much better to washes and inks.
Apparently there they are looking to expand the Speedpaint range, in consultation with a gaggle of painters. I only got two minutes into the video before losing interest, so no idea if there is any actual detail on what's planned in there...
insaniak wrote: Apparently there they are looking to expand the Speedpaint range, in consultation with a gaggle of painters. I only got two minutes into the video before losing interest, so no idea if there is any actual detail on what's planned in there...
A lineup of faces that will endorse a bad product for money, huh
A lineup of faces that will endorse a bad product for money, huh
I think there's a mention in the video that they're not being paid, just providing feedback. Hopefully some of that feedback is 'Fix the reactivation issue'...
A lineup of faces that will endorse a bad product for money, huh
I think there's a mention in the video that they're not being paid, just providing feedback. Hopefully some of that feedback is 'Fix the reactivation issue'...
Regardless of paid endorsements, I think we'll only be hearing positive things about the paints/Army Painter from those YTers, and if there's an issue similar to the reactivation, it's more likely just going to be strategically not mentioned or downplayed - as a number of them did in the past...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Update - regarding "paid" - the first line of the description is:
We've hired 5 of your favorite painters, from 4 of your favorite channels to help us make Speedpaint even bigger, and better than ever! Go behind-the-scenes for our first group meeting.
stahly wrote: They mentioned in the video that they came up with a new resin that reduces/removes the reactivation issue, so fingers crossed.
I haven’t had any issue with it, so I just hope if they do change it up it behaves the same way still.
Other than reactivating some people seem to get.
insaniak wrote: Apparently there they are looking to expand the Speedpaint range, in consultation with a gaggle of painters. I only got two minutes into the video before losing interest, so no idea if there is any actual detail on what's planned in there...
A lineup of faces that will endorse a bad product for money, huh
Dana is the one who said you can fix reactivation by using their medium... so I bought their medium and had the same problems... I want my $9 back thanks Dana
I mostly like Goober... but also don't trust him in the slightest as he focuses on the positives and not the negatives which makes his reviews and commentary skewed.
Ninjon, I dunno, I like his painting, but I don't like his videos, and he did that cringe video for AP that could be summarised as "well, sure, AP Warpaints suck, but you can still paint a good model if you try I guess".
I don't think I've watched anything from the other two.
Goober is a chemist and has several videos discussing paints and resin in-depth. In addition to being a positive dude who clearly explains why he makes certain content decisions.
I understand the kneejerk reaction of "ugh they got some dumb INFLUENCERS on board" if you've not watched their videos, but hey guess what... "influencers" who are actually very reasonable, sincere and entertaining people exist. It's not all quick-cut shrieking minecraft videos and you have to have actually watched a video or two to find out for yourself.
RustyNumber wrote: Goober is a chemist and has several videos discussing paints and resin in-depth. In addition to being a positive dude who clearly explains why he makes certain content decisions.
I understand the kneejerk reaction of "ugh they got some dumb INFLUENCERS on board" if you've not watched their videos, but hey guess what... "influencers" who are actually very reasonable, sincere and entertaining people exist. It's not all quick-cut shrieking minecraft videos and you have to have actually watched a video or two to find out for yourself.
The ones I personally commented on (Goober, Dana and Ninjon) are the ones for whom I have watched their videos.
Of those, Goober is the one I'd be most likely to watch, but also not one I'd listen to for advice on products.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azazelx wrote: Juan (mostly) fixed reactivation - with Citadel's Contrast medium.
Spoiler:
I had seen that video, but hadn't tried it yet. TBH, when I'm using Speedpaints/Contrasts, I'm usually using them neat because I am using them from the perspective of painting quickly. Though I understand Juan uses his for more advanced painting techniques where thinning is more useful.
Dana's suggestion was to use the AP medium for thinning instead of water for thinning and it'd solve the reactivation issue, but it didn't seem to change it in the slightest, so I dunno if it was lying or maybe AP sent Dana a different product to the one I bought of the shelf at my FLGS.
Dana's suggestion was to use the AP medium for thinning instead of water for thinning and it'd solve the reactivation issue, but it didn't seem to change it in the slightest, so I dunno if it was lying or maybe AP sent Dana a different product to the one I bought of the shelf at my FLGS.
I suspect that Dana was only getting the reactivation when she was thinning them, and so using medium instead of water 'fixed' it.
That's the biggest frustration with the reactivation... it seems to be completely random. I'm still guessing it's related to temperature and humidity, but the line between 'reactivates' and 'doesn't reactivate' seems to be very thin and wobbly, and differs for different Speedpaints.
RustyNumber wrote: Goober is a chemist and has several videos discussing paints and resin in-depth. In addition to being a positive dude who clearly explains why he makes certain content decisions.
I understand the kneejerk reaction of "ugh they got some dumb INFLUENCERS on board" if you've not watched their videos, but hey guess what... "influencers" who are actually very reasonable, sincere and entertaining people exist. It's not all quick-cut shrieking minecraft videos and you have to have actually watched a video or two to find out for yourself.
With Goobs being a chemist, I have high hopes for a good reformulate. As for it being influencers, who else would folks want? Juan has tied his anchor to Vallejo, we don't know if there are contracts in place. I would have liked to have seen Stahly but I don't make the business decisions.
Hopefully review bottles will be sent out to the most critical voices.
RustyNumber wrote: Goober is a chemist and has several videos discussing paints and resin in-depth. In addition to being a positive dude who clearly explains why he makes certain content decisions.
I understand the kneejerk reaction of "ugh they got some dumb INFLUENCERS on board" if you've not watched their videos, but hey guess what... "influencers" who are actually very reasonable, sincere and entertaining people exist. It's not all quick-cut shrieking minecraft videos and you have to have actually watched a video or two to find out for yourself.
With Goobs being a chemist, I have high hopes for a good reformulate. As for it being influencers, who else would folks want? Juan has tied his anchor to Vallejo, we don't know if there are contracts in place. I would have liked to have seen Stahly but I don't make the business decisions.
Hopefully review bottles will be sent out to the most critical voices.
Goobs is a chemist, but unless his thesis was on paints, I doubt he knows more about paint chemistry than the people actually making the paints. At best it might equip him to talk about his experiences in a language that another chemist might understand.
As to the influencers thing, honestly, to me, getting influencers on board just makes me more suspicious than if they didn't. Maybe that sort of marketing works for other people, but to me, your product should be able to stand on its own two feet instead of getting influencers involved at all.
If the product is good, the influencers will praise it without them being tied to the product.
From a product development perspective, an influencer's input is just one person's input, I don't see it as any more valuable than any other hobbyist with demonstrated ability. Choosing influencers over any other random hobbyist is purely an exercise in marketing.
Its funny that no one has been over in the Vallejo thread about their contrast paints complaining about them hiring influencers to help "develop" the line including the one that's very active in that thread.
There's no difference between that and this. Just people paid to convince you their corporate overlords product is the one you should be buying.
Monkeysloth wrote: Its funny that no one has been over in the Vallejo thread about their contrast paints complaining about them hiring influencers to help "develop" the line including the one that's very active in that thread.
There's no difference between that and this. Just people paid to convince you their corporate overlords product is the one you should be buying.
Vallejo have released actual information with their influencer grifting, so we have actual things to talk about on that thread. The first video I saw was Juan actually talking about the product and using it on a model, and Juan is actually on the thread answering questions. I'll still be judging them for myself both when wider reviews come out and when I get to try them myself.
AP just seems to be grifting without much information, they released a video to announce that they are listening to people, then they released a video to announce that there'd be an announcement, and now they released a "paint dev team" video which I stopped watching after a couple of minutes of nothing meaningful (if there's meaningful stuff later in the video, my apologies).
Crucially, as time since I got the Speed Paint pots go by, I've started to notice them behaving differently over time, much clumpier and much less smooth.
Albertorius wrote: Crucially, as time since I got the Speed Paint pots go by, I've started to notice them behaving differently over time, much clumpier and much less smooth.
Which is REALLY not good.
Interesting. In the past I noticed some of my GW shades changing and degrading, but that was after years of use.
RustyNumber wrote: Goober is a chemist and has several videos discussing paints and resin in-depth. In addition to being a positive dude who clearly explains why he makes certain content decisions.
I understand the kneejerk reaction of "ugh they got some dumb INFLUENCERS on board" if you've not watched their videos, but hey guess what... "influencers" who are actually very reasonable, sincere and entertaining people exist. It's not all quick-cut shrieking minecraft videos and you have to have actually watched a video or two to find out for yourself.
I watch a lot of Ninjon's stuff, and still watch Goober from time to time. The fact that they might be reasonable, "sincere" and/or entertaining doesn't mean they're above bias or ...strategic omission or reframing of what consumers might view as important information. EoB describing the reactivation as a "feature" would be an example.
Because the YT thing is their living. Biting the hand that feeds, either by burning a bridge that gives you those pre-release products so you can be first to get your videos out, long before the people who need to purchase them from retail gets you more clicks, and more revenue from google/adsense - or more literally by pissing off a company that's literally paying you for your "consultancy". We know that at least some of them will be compromised in how they frame their public opinions. Regardless of how "reasonable, sincere and entertaining" they might be. Whatsisname? Scott? Ninjon's mate Miniac. He can perhaps be "reasonable, sincere and entertaining" but we saw how he behaved regarding the GW NDA for HH - both in terms of hiring a commission painter to paint the troops and then instagramming a bunch of NDA'd content at the GW event because he "forgot" and used the "Wrong camera/phone/whatever."
Also a chuckle about the AP guy telling them at the start of their zoom meeting that there's no expectation of them making a bunch of videos on it. Which is a little disingenious, because what's their job again? TY content creators? I think we can safely expect several series of the process of anything and everything that's not covered by NDA from at least several of them regardless of any public "expectations".
Point is that these people are all people. They're very fallible and their precarious position as content creators/influencers on the unstable payment platform known as YouTube makes them very vulnerable to being "influenced" by whoever is proividing them with supplementary income - certainly today and also who might perhaps tomorrow. Now let me tell you about these amazing STL files from my sponsor which you can print and then upload to your brilliant new website created on Squarespace via your secure online tunnel from ExpressVPN...
Monkeysloth wrote: Its funny that no one has been over in the Vallejo thread about their contrast paints complaining about them hiring influencers to help "develop" the line including the one that's very active in that thread.
There's no difference between that and this. Just people paid to convince you their corporate overlords product is the one you should be buying.
The difference is, also, that Army Painter has already released its product and we know it to be garbage, and those influencers have been revealed as grifters. Vallejo's one influencer has been open about his relationship with Vallejo, and we don't actually know yet if the product he's pushing is good or bad, so he can get the benefit of the doubt.
With Goobs being a chemist, I have high hopes for a good reformulate. As for it being influencers, who else would folks want? Juan has tied his anchor to Vallejo, we don't know if there are contracts in place. I would have liked to have seen Stahly but I don't make the business decisions.
Hopefully review bottles will be sent out to the most critical voices.
Goober isn't on staff, and I doubt he'd be involved in any way with creating or modifying their formulation. Or even knowing exactly what it is, because proprietary information.
But who would be the most critical voices? Juan and Stahly? Who else has been openly critical of Speedpaint who's not now on their payroll?
That'd be it aside from various bloggers or forum loudmouths like myself and I don't expect AP to reach out to me. Most other hobby YTers I've viewed have simply taken the middle ground and not said anything at all - neither endorsing nor being critical of it, simply mentioning that it's a thing that exists - from Tabletop Minions to most of the rest of them.
I'd be happier if they reformulated their actual paint, which is terrible. Adding a couple of mixing balls is not the solution. Going back to their original formula would be the best solution and it honestly baffles me that they haven't done so...
Monkeysloth wrote: Its funny that no one has been over in the Vallejo thread about their contrast paints complaining about them hiring influencers to help "develop" the line including the one that's very active in that thread.
There's no difference between that and this. Just people paid to convince you their corporate overlords product is the one you should be buying.
The difference is, also, that Army Painter has already released its product and we know it to be garbage, and those influencers have been revealed as grifters. Vallejo's one influencer has been open about his relationship with Vallejo, and we don't actually know yet if the product he's pushing is good or bad, so he can get the benefit of the doubt.
Exactly this. Also, in Juan's demo video he demonstrates that the stuff doesn't reactivate - which is really the only sticking point with Speedpaints because they look pretty good as a product except for this one, tiny, critical flaw.
Oh, and Vallejo's track record of excellent paints, and AP's track record of ...not that.
lord_blackfang wrote: The difference is, also, that Army Painter has already released its product and we know it to be garbage, and those influencers have been revealed as grifters. Vallejo's one influencer has been open about his relationship with Vallejo, and we don't actually know yet if the product he's pushing is good or bad, so he can get the benefit of the doubt.
Also, Vallejo has a good reputation among painters, although I've heard criticism for their black surface primer and Game Color.
While I like the Army Painter washes, more dedicated hobbyists haven't said much for their paints. So when AP comes out with a product that has reactivation issues, of course their reputation plummets, along with anyone who endorses them.
As for "influencers", if you like that sort of thing, go ahead and watch. But "free" is never "free", and that goes for reviews. Video productions cost money, and if you're not paying for it, someone else is. Myself, if I'm looking for information, I find written reviews more helpful. For tutorials, I start with written but videos can help show a step. If I want opinions, I'll ask on a thread, since you'll have multiple opinions, typically from people who paid for the product instead of receiving it free.
Vallejo always aimed for quality painters/display models and historical wargames with the more recent Game Colours aimed at boardgames/fantasy wargames
their good reputation mainly comes from the re-creation of historical colours rather than the quality of the paint itself (as most always claim that Citadel it the highest quality possible anyway if they come from the wargaming side while those that come from the scale model side the only important thing is that the colours are historical accurate)
while Army Painter always aimed at "get it done fast" wargaming part
be it dipping, washes, inks as their main line up and those are good (and I have used their coloured inks in a way some people use Contrast now)
I haven't bought any of their newer warpaints so if they changed them, it is bad as the old ones were good (comparable to the Game Colours) while for the Speed Paints, I just have the Brown, White and Green and those work for me
Overall comparing AP and Vallejo is tricky, as they are usually not used for the same thing (you won't paint WW2 scale models with AP, while not doing D&D models with Model Colours) outside being a cheap alternative to GW
and both need adjustment to your painting techniques
like the criticism for Vallejo black surface primer, were I had no problem with it after adapting to it (usually people go with air first on the airbrush but this causes the prime to dry up in the nozzle)
but I am also one who does not buy sets but the specific colour for my needs and use like 5 different brands and have different ones depending on my needs and the model I paint (like I won't paint a tank with the same colour I paint terrain and use different ones for speed than for display)
so I hardly understand the hate for a specific brand anyway
kodos wrote: Vallejo always aimed for quality painters/display models and historical wargames with the more recent Game Colours aimed at boardgames/fantasy wargames
their good reputation mainly comes from the re-creation of historical colours rather than the quality of the paint itself (as most always claim that Citadel it the highest quality possible anyway if they come from the wargaming side while those that come from the scale model side the only important thing is that the colours are historical accurate)
I find Vallejo actually sucks for historical accuracy, so I'm not sure where you got that idea. They sell historical paints, yes, but accuracy, not so much. Often on scale modelling forums, people will post comparisons of common colours used on historical vehicles/infantry, and Vallejo is so often miles away from either the source materials or every other company's interpretation.
I also wouldn't say Citadel is the highest possible quality. I'd say Citadel trades blows with the other top brands, depending on what colour you're wanting it might be better or worse. Vallejo Model Colour draws me in for having a great range of desaturated colours with great coverage, the Game Colour range I find pretty comparable to most of Citadel's range. Vallejo's Metal Colour is probably the best brush on TMM without the headache of being an alcohol, enamel, or lacquer offering from some of the other companies.
In Squidmar's comparison video, Vallejo ended on top of the pile (but maybe there was some bias there) followed by Reaper, AK and then Citadel (with the caveat that they scored Golden higher, but knocked it out earlier due to the versus system they used to grade them).
In my experience AK beats all other dropper bottle paints just on being the only one not separating like crazy and requiring a vortex mixer to function. Before we even get into it having the best coverage.
With Goobs being a chemist, I have high hopes for a good reformulate. As for it being influencers, who else would folks want? Juan has tied his anchor to Vallejo, we don't know if there are contracts in place. I would have liked to have seen Stahly but I don't make the business decisions.
Hopefully review bottles will be sent out to the most critical voices.
Goober isn't on staff, and I doubt he'd be involved in any way with creating or modifying their formulation. Or even knowing exactly what it is, because proprietary information.
I had enjoyed Goober's stuff and his reaction to Contrast when it first came out was fair: "this is pretty good, but it's really overpriced, here's how to make your own much cheaper"
Now I hate the idea of calling people "paid shills" and such, 90% of the time it's complete nonsense, they just like different things, but his video when AP Speedpaint came out really made me question some things.
"Speedpaints Review: I'm Never Buying Contrast Paint Again. Army Painter Speedpaint is Good!" - which is weird, because I thought he wasn't buying Contrast in the first place, as he was mixing his own. And yes, it's a quid cheaper but it's still expensive. But there's literally no mention of his previous video on mixing your own stuff. Certainly not a link. Definitely no comparison and talk about the comparative costs - which was the entirety of his video on Contrast. Instead it just gets compared in price to Contrast. Which again: weird, because he'd told us not to buy Contrast, as we could make it ourselves for really cheap.
My only explanation is that more was at play than that just being a completely independent video. Why would you not mention your previous, very popular video on the topic if not?
Citadel being the top and everything else being just a cheap alternative that trades quality for price, comes from those were painters learned painting with GW in the past
there are communities were even saying that Vallejo or AK is equal in quality to Citadel gets you a shitstorm or ban
for the historical parts, but at least here and in the painting communities I am around Vallejo has their reputation for a good product because of their WW2 sets (there are a lot of discussions on which "Dunkelgelb" is actually the true one and the only source are outdated industry colour codes, but this is a very different rabbit hole)
my go to for Washes is Army Painter, and for everything else, it depends
That's a bit of an oxymoron, especially when it comes to exact colors.
A lot of colours used on military vehicles in the past 100 years are documented, not all, but many of them, and even when there's not a case of them being documented there's often examples, reference photos that can be used for matching value (if not colour itself). Manufacturers then try and interpret that information into a colour that they sell to customers, and Vallejo (in my experience at least) consistently lies further away from reference materials and other manufacturers. So many times I've checked swatch charts and seen Vallejo being the odd one out compared to Humbrol, Testors, Tamiya, Gunze and so on. And when Vallejo is a good match, it's often not the colour they intended for that purpose
Of course there's some colours where there isn't a good idea of what the colour was originally, so in those cases I accept that everything is just a guess (for example, the guess of what early war IJN A6M aircraft looked like has changed over the years), but that's certainly not always the case.
From World War II on back "historical accuracy" is indeed an oxymoron when it comes to exact colors. When I played Flames of War back in the early 2000's there was a published author on the subject of World War II colors by the name of Mike Starmer who frequented the Battlefront forums and gave a lot of information. Between wartime shortages for the paints which dictated substitutions at the local level and well-meaning 'preservationists' who just used whatever color they thought looked "right" there really is no one right 'Dunkelgelb' or a lot of other colors.
> "Speedpaints Review: I'm Never Buying Contrast Paint Again. Army Painter Speedpaint is Good!" - which is weird, because I thought he wasn't buying Contrast in the first place, as he was mixing his own.
Yeah, that! Glad someone else noticed. Goober got as far as suggesting what to use to make your own contrast. I use Les' wash, which pretty much uses the same stuff. My signature has an actual recipe that someone on LeadAdventurers uses in place of contrast. I used ink and craft paint (similar to matte medium and ink) on top of white primer with good effect.
I rechecked my Vallejo paints, and they're Vallejo Model Air, Vallejo Game Air, and Vallejo Surface Primer. Bought 'em on sale. Colored air brush primers are sold in larger containers, so are less expensive per ounce than hobby paints, and, of course, they prime as well. Hobby paints I use less for basecoats than to detail a miniature, often using a kid's craft paint pot of a similar shade as a wet-palette and forcing me to use a color gradient.
Ghaz wrote: From World War II on back "historical accuracy" is indeed an oxymoron when it comes to exact colors. When I played Flames of War back in the early 2000's there was a published author on the subject of World War II colors by the name of Mike Starmer who frequented the Battlefront forums and gave a lot of information. Between wartime shortages for the paints which dictated substitutions at the local level and well-meaning 'preservationists' who just used whatever color they thought looked "right" there really is no one right 'Dunkelgelb' or a lot of other colors.
There's some colours from WW2 that either aren't well documented or as you mention they weren't consistently applied... but there is also a lot of information on many colours that were reasonably well defined, and even the colours that aren't well defined there may still be a lot of information to guide, and where there was variation it might be possible to track down factory differences vs field application, different time periods, etc etc.
There's also artistic interpretations of colours, and I think a lot of the time that comes into it, but in my experience Vallejo colours really aren't favoured in the scale model community for historical accuracy, which was what kodos mentioned. We could go off on a long discussion on it and we could start posting colour swatches but this is hardly the place or time Kodos was clearly making a statement that I disagreed with, if you want to argue that there's no such thing as historical accuracy in colours, okay, sure, that topic is a thesis in and of itself.
I guess that's the difference between a casual painter and a professional, because SpeedPaints has been find for me.
As far as I'm concerned, I think Juan over stated the problems with SpeedPaints especially if he was under contract with Vallejo. The whole thing comes off as a conflict of interest to me.
I've been using Army Painter exclusively since I stopped using craft paints from Walmart, and Army Painter has been amazing. I used the speed paints for one or two things, and they're fine, but I can understand the reactivation issue being too big for some. I will keep using them for minor things that I can't be bothered with, but they won't go on many main minis.
All the fuss about the quality of paints just reminds me that paints matter a lot less than people make it out to be. Even craft paints were fine, and my girlfriend's favorite paint job of mine was done using craft paints.
lord_blackfang wrote: In my experience AK beats all other dropper bottle paints just on being the only one not separating like crazy and requiring a vortex mixer to function. Before we even get into it having the best coverage.
I recently had the suitcase of doom bought for me as a gift, and I have to say, these AK paints are fething brilliant. Almost too good so I'm treating them like something to break out for special things than using them as workhorses like I probably should... though that suitcase is so nice, I just want to put them back inside it when I finish using each colour..
I had enjoyed Goober's stuff and his reaction to Contrast when it first came out was fair: "this is pretty good, but it's really overpriced, here's how to make your own much cheaper"
Now I hate the idea of calling people "paid shills" and such, 90% of the time it's complete nonsense, they just like different things, but his video when AP Speedpaint came out really made me question some things.
"Speedpaints Review: I'm Never Buying Contrast Paint Again. Army Painter Speedpaint is Good!" - which is weird, because I thought he wasn't buying Contrast in the first place, as he was mixing his own. And yes, it's a quid cheaper but it's still expensive. But there's literally no mention of his previous video on mixing your own stuff. Certainly not a link. Definitely no comparison and talk about the comparative costs - which was the entirety of his video on Contrast. Instead it just gets compared in price to Contrast. Which again: weird, because he'd told us not to buy Contrast, as we could make it ourselves for really cheap.
My only explanation is that more was at play than that just being a completely independent video. Why would you not mention your previous, very popular video on the topic if not?
That's certainly an interesting thing that you point out there. I watched both videos in their time but basically forgot abouit the first one by the time I watched the second, so I didn't draw the obvious dichotomy between the two. I mean, at this point in time I don't recall anything about either of them, so I guess it fits...
kodos wrote: Citadel being the top and everything else being just a cheap alternative that trades quality for price, comes from those were painters learned painting with GW in the past
there are communities were even saying that Vallejo or AK is equal in quality to Citadel gets you a shitstorm or ban
That seems a bit deranged. Can you name/link some of these places? I'd like to check them out.
for the historical parts, but at least here and in the painting communities I am around Vallejo has their reputation for a good product because of their WW2 sets (there are a lot of discussions on which "Dunkelgelb" is actually the true one and the only source are outdated industry colour codes, but this is a very different rabbit hole)
my go to for Washes is Army Painter, and for everything else, it depends
AP's Strong/Soft/Dark tones are my mainstays for those three colours, and I use their other colours a lot, but I do use citadel or any others depending on the exact colour or tone I want outside of my standard black and browns. Paintwise, I use a ton of colours, including the original AP ones (a small, shrinking stash of them that I still have left....)
There's some colours from WW2 that either aren't well documented or as you mention they weren't consistently applied... but there is also a lot of information on many colours that were reasonably well defined, and even the colours that aren't well defined there may still be a lot of information to guide, and where there was variation it might be possible to track down factory differences vs field application, different time periods, etc etc.
There's also artistic interpretations of colours, and I think a lot of the time that comes into it, but in my experience Vallejo colours really aren't favoured in the scale model community for historical accuracy, which was what kodos mentioned. We could go off on a long discussion on it and we could start posting colour swatches but this is hardly the place or time Kodos was clearly making a statement that I disagreed with, if you want to argue that there's no such thing as historical accuracy in colours, okay, sure, that topic is a thesis in and of itself.
Without getting into the minutia of the argument, I will just point out that exact paint swatches will vary from batch to batch even in modern peacetime, as opposed to mid-1940's under total war. We also know that paint on vehicles fades bleaches and weathers differently, as does cloth - and that even original uniforms from the era vary in tones depending on manufacture. exposure to light, and many other factors, so even single reference photos in what passed for colour back then are ...not definitive. - "What colour is Feldgrau, exactly?" is something I looked into several years ago, and the result was "I'm painting toy soldiers that just need to look at feel close enough to right because it's not a question with a simple answer."
So while I'm not claiming anything on the part of how exactly accurate vallejo's swatches are - because honestly, I'm not a Historian with an extensive knowledge of exact colours from the 1940's - For me, Vallejo fills in a bunch of "close enoughs" for 15mm and 28mm models, even if the exact name on the bottle isn't the same as the one in the official Vallejo painting guides.
legionaires wrote: I guess that's the difference between a casual painter and a professional, because SpeedPaints has been find for me.
As far as I'm concerned, I think Juan over stated the problems with SpeedPaints especially if he was under contract with Vallejo. The whole thing comes off as a conflict of interest to me.
I know several people who have used them and had nothing but issues with them reactivating. If a product has a replicatable issue for, say, even 30% of users, then it's a problem with the product. Also, Stahly's not under contract with anyone and he was the first to bring this up here, but you keep on throwing shade if you want to.
If they reactivate at all, then they're not a product I'm willing to use. If that's not a problem for you or others who like them, then more power to ya - enjoy by all means - but nobody gets to gaslight other people for whom reactivating paints is an issue.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: I've been using Army Painter exclusively since I stopped using craft paints from Walmart, and Army Painter has been amazing. I used the speed paints for one or two things, and they're fine, but I can understand the reactivation issue being too big for some. I will keep using them for minor things that I can't be bothered with, but they won't go on many main minis.
All the fuss about the quality of paints just reminds me that paints matter a lot less than people make it out to be. Even craft paints were fine, and my girlfriend's favorite paint job of mine was done using craft paints.
Without wanting to be rude, it sounds like you've never used really good quality paints, so your opinion is limited by your ...limited experience of only using poor quality paints. I get it, though - I started with the Humbrol enamels that I inherited from my older brothers, and for a few years, when I needed new paint, I bought more Humbrol Enamels because the paints I used were Humbrol enamels and I was quite happy with the results I was getting - and some of them were pretty good - especially for the day.
Ninjon's sponsored-by-AP-video did indeed show that if you're willing to work with the properties of a paint, that you can still turn out quality work. I'd love to hear your opinions or experiences in a couple of years if you started using better quality paints like Vallejo/AK 3rd Gen/Citadel. Even P3, etc.
My recommendation would be to keep using what you're using as you appear to be quite happy with them, but when you want new colours or replacements, branch out to other brands and try them out. You'll probably be surprised at how well they can work for you, just like I was when I started branching out from Humbrol enamels. I'm not telling you that you're a bad or stupid person for enjoying your Army Painter paints or being proud of your work with Apple Barrel - I'm simply suggesting that branching out and using a variety of paints will do you better in the long run than being s Stan for any one company or paint manufacturer - because quality tools will make the hobby easier and more enjoyable for you than having to fight with your tools - as even Ninjon mentioned in that same sponsored video.
I'll never meet you IRL, I don't own shares in Vallejo or AK or GW, it won't affect me what you buy or use, so take it from a place ot simple advice from one hobbyist to another that trying new paints will only be a good thing.
Off the top of my head, I've got and actively use products from Army Painter, Citadel, P3, AK3rd Gen, Pro Acryl, 6+ sub-brands of Vallejo, GSW, Kromlech, Derivan, Liquitex, Windsor & Newton, Daler Rowney, Tamiya, Woodland Scenics and probably several others that escape me. Every company wants to be the one-stop-shop, but you'll get the best results from using the best tools for each job - or at least a quality tool for each job.
I've heard that Army Painter's Air range is good, but I'm too gun-shy to buy the sets after my experiences with the standard paints' massive set I bought and the Speedpaints debacle - we'll call it trust issues - and I can't get the individual paints for a reasonable price to even just try a couple.
lord_blackfang wrote: In my experience AK beats all other dropper bottle paints just on being the only one not separating like crazy and requiring a vortex mixer to function. Before we even get into it having the best coverage.
I recently had the suitcase of doom bought for me as a gift, and I have to say, these AK paints are fething brilliant. Almost too good so I'm treating them like something to break out for special things than using them as workhorses like I probably should... though that suitcase is so nice, I just want to put them back inside it when I finish using each colour..
They're not any more expensive than other brands, so go ahead and use them for everything
But yea they're "the good stuff" to me too. It helps that even the cap is superior and easily distinguishable in a mixed rack.
legionaires wrote: I guess that's the difference between a casual painter and a professional, because SpeedPaints has been find for me.
As far as I'm concerned, I think Juan over stated the problems with SpeedPaints especially if he was under contract with Vallejo. The whole thing comes off as a conflict of interest to me.
While that's possible, Juan has stated earlier in this thread IIRC that he has found the new Warpaint Air line from AP to be excellent.
I'm not a fan of Dana or Goob, but I do watch all of Ninjon's videos. All three of them generally try not to "bite the hand that feeds" by being critical. The worst I've seen from Jon or Scott (Miniac) is them railing against the GW Lore, but then bend over when GW comes calling with free product.
I know that in the JH video about the new Xpress paints, he does complain about a couple of the colors and then later the lack of other colors. So even if he was involved in developing, and paid, he still directly complained about the product.
Personally, I put more stock in someone like Squidmar and have moved to using many of the ranges he's spoke well of.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: I've been using Army Painter exclusively since I stopped using craft paints from Walmart, and Army Painter has been amazing. I used the speed paints for one or two things, and they're fine, but I can understand the reactivation issue being too big for some. I will keep using them for minor things that I can't be bothered with, but they won't go on many main minis.
All the fuss about the quality of paints just reminds me that paints matter a lot less than people make it out to be. Even craft paints were fine, and my girlfriend's favorite paint job of mine was done using craft paints.
Without wanting to be rude, it sounds like you've never used really good quality paints, so your opinion is limited by your ...limited experience of only using poor quality paints. I get it, though - I started with the Humbrol enamels that I inherited from my older brothers, and for a few years, when I needed new paint, I bought more Humbrol Enamels because the paints I used were Humbrol enamels and I was quite happy with the results I was getting - and some of them were pretty good - especially for the day.
Ninjon's sponsored-by-AP-video did indeed show that if you're willing to work with the properties of a paint, that you can still turn out quality work. I'd love to hear your opinions or experiences in a couple of years if you started using better quality paints like Vallejo/AK 3rd Gen/Citadel. Even P3, etc.
My recommendation would be to keep using what you're using as you appear to be quite happy with them, but when you want new colours or replacements, branch out to other brands and try them out. You'll probably be surprised at how well they can work for you, just like I was when I started branching out from Humbrol enamels. I'm not telling you that you're a bad or stupid person for enjoying your Army Painter paints or being proud of your work with Apple Barrel - I'm simply suggesting that branching out and using a variety of paints will do you better in the long run than being s Stan for any one company or paint manufacturer - because quality tools will make the hobby easier and more enjoyable for you than having to fight with your tools - as even Ninjon mentioned in that same sponsored video.
I'll never meet you IRL, I don't own shares in Vallejo or AK or GW, it won't affect me what you buy or use, so take it from a place ot simple advice from one hobbyist to another that trying new paints will only be a good thing.
Off the top of my head, I've got and actively use products from Army Painter, Citadel, P3, AK3rd Gen, Pro Acryl, 6+ sub-brands of Vallejo, GSW, Kromlech, Derivan, Liquitex, Windsor & Newton, Daler Rowney, Tamiya, Woodland Scenics and probably several others that escape me. Every company wants to be the one-stop-shop, but you'll get the best results from using the best tools for each job - or at least a quality tool for each job.
I've heard that Army Painter's Air range is good, but I'm too gun-shy to buy the sets after my experiences with the standard paints' massive set I bought and the Speedpaints debacle - we'll call it trust issues - and I can't get the individual paints for a reasonable price to even just try a couple.
I think this was the least rude you could have been, so don't apologize for being rude. I understand that paints have strengths and weaknesses, I've watched a lot of high quality painting videos. I probably should have said that I don't intend on being particularly high quality. But, I might try some Games Workshop paints or Vallejo. Probably Vallejo, due to price. But my Army Painter stuff was all a gift, so I probably won't switch for a while. My main goal for painting is for stuff to look good enough, and be put on the table, with some minis getting extra work, like my Avatar and Nourkias for Infinity. Maybe I'll pick up some higher quality stuff for characters like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Midwinter Minis is my favorite painting guy, as his speedpaint videos are what helped me figure out how I want to paint.
I think I’m the target market for Speedpaints, as I treat painting the way I treated Little League: something I don’t want to do but have to look like I’m trying so I don’t get yelled at.
About half of the speedpaints in the box did what I wanted. One layer, done, looks decent. The other half look flat like any other paints, but cost more and reactivate if highlighted, so not as good.
Most of the paints I own are Vallejo, Army Painter, Reaper and Turbodork, depending on the color needed. For washes, I use almost exclusively Army Painter. The last Citadel paints I bought dried out before I could use them, so I can’t compare on quality.
> I probably should have said that I don't intend on being particularly high quality. But, I might try some Games Workshop paints or Vallejo. Probably Vallejo, due to price. But my Army Painter stuff was all a gift, so I probably won't switch for a while.
Good points there. FREE IS GOODEST But often, on painting forums, it's difficult to tell if advice is from the POV of a display-level painter, vs. a gamer one. I've pretty much bought all my paints on some sort of discount: Reaper's paint sets on KS, airbrush paints from a USA Airbrush Supply sale, or a single bottle I was shopping for from the FLGS or OLGS. And I pretty much use craft paints for terrain. I also find that different paint ranges from different companies, as well as non-hobby paints and inks, allows me to have a range of consistencies and even containers. Maybe I'll need a paint that sticks to the brush for a raised surface. Maybe I'll need a thin paint for the recesses. Maybe I'll use the kid's craft paint jar because it acts like a wet palette and forces me to use more than one shade.
legionaires wrote: I guess that's the difference between a casual painter and a professional, because SpeedPaints has been fine for me.
As far as I'm concerned, I think Juan over stated the problems with SpeedPaints especially if he was under contract with Vallejo. The whole thing comes off as a conflict of interest to me.
I know several people who have used them and had nothing but issues with them reactivating. If a product has a replicatable issue for, say, even 30% of users, then it's a problem with the product. Also, Stahly's not under contract with anyone and he was the first to bring this up here, but you keep on throwing shade if you want to.
If they reactivate at all, then they're not a product I'm willing to use. If that's not a problem for you or others who like them, then more power to ya - enjoy by all means - but nobody gets to gaslight other people for whom reactivating paints is an issue.
To me, Stahly had a much more even hand in his criticism. And I never said folks couldn't have problems. But I totally get refusing to use a product. AK is a never use brand in my household.
I think this was the least rude you could have been, so don't apologize for being rude. I understand that paints have strengths and weaknesses, I've watched a lot of high quality painting videos. I probably should have said that I don't intend on being particularly high quality. But, I might try some Games Workshop paints or Vallejo. Probably Vallejo, due to price. But my Army Painter stuff was all a gift, so I probably won't switch for a while. My main goal for painting is for stuff to look good enough, and be put on the table, with some minis getting extra work, like my Avatar and Nourkias for Infinity. Maybe I'll pick up some higher quality stuff for characters like that.
Also, Midwinter Minis is my favorite painting guy, as his speedpaint videos are what helped me figure out how I want to paint.
All good, mate. The thing about better quality paints isn't about you wanting to be a l33t painter, but more that they're just nicer to use, and so your work will likely improve as a result of less fricton between you and what you're trying to do. Like.. think about when you've gotten a new PC or console or phone and thought ...ahh.. this is nice compared to the old one. That kind of thing. Like I said, don't stress about switching brands, but just look to others when you buy new paints as supplemental or replacement colours. If you're just buying one or two paints, don't even stress on the dollar or two difference between brands - try a bunch. (though avoid Citadel's whites and Yellows and their metallics that don't have the white pot lids) I mean, just ask people on here or feel free to send me a PM or post a comment over on my blog for advice on a good (insert colourt name/type) for (insert the thing being painted).
Also the way he came across in the "I painted the last old Squat" video when he said his mate brought them to him to show him the models and so then he decided to open and paint it - "I hope bob doesn't get upset" - may have been a joke - I'm honestly still not sure if he just took his mate's old, rare valuable, unopened, model and painted it without asking only to leave it in WHW so he could make money via attractive YT content - or if it was just a joke, but came across douchey either way.
All the fuss about the quality of paints just reminds me that paints matter a lot less than people make it out to be. Even craft paints were fine, and my girlfriend's favorite paint job of mine was done using craft paints.
While you can get adequate results from cheap craft paints, they are just that - adequate.
I wholeheartedly disagree with your quality of paint assessment being less fuss than folks make it out to be.
Since switching paint lines to primarily AK Interactive, I have upped my painting game immensely.
And there is nothing else involved. Just by switching paint lines, I’ve managed to create much higher quality paint jobs than I ever have.
So while painting your gaming miniatures with craft paint is fine, if you just want colour on them.
But if you want to take things to a level of actual artistry, then a high quality paint is not an option.
And no, Citadel is definitely not the best stuff out there and Army Painter is even worse. Which is likely why they have to pay influencers like Goober, Ninjon and Dana Howl to push their products. Because on their own, as a material used for making art, they are close to bottom of the barrel.
That’s just my opinion as a contest-level painter, and you don’t have to like it or agree with it.
A more pertinent point is that you don't need to be a contest level painter to benefit immensely from better paints. In this context, Even Citadel is still miles above AP's current Warpaints.
@Azazelx
There are some reddit subs and one German forum (don't know if this still exists, as I leave such communities rather soon and don't look back)
Yeah, I am decidedly not contest-level; if I can get a decent tabletop paint job done, I'm happy.
Speedpaints would make that actively harder due to the reactivation issues.
Contrast make it a bit faster. Vallejo, Cote d'Armes, Reaper, Two Thin Coats, Instar, and Turbo Dork all make it a little easier, in various ways.
I can and do use cheap craft paint too, or even acrylic wall paint, but generally only if I have a large piece of terrain to paint, and/or if I want a very thick, detail-hiding layer of paint so as to save a bit of time by not having to sand down 3D printed terrain.
AP posted another video. I haven't bothered to watch it, it just came up on my feed. No offence to Goober, but I don't really want to spend 10 minutes watching a "Meet Goober" video. If someone does watch it, maybe let us know if there's any meaningful information in it
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azazelx wrote: A more pertinent point is that you don't need to be a contest level painter to benefit immensely from better paints. In this context, Even Citadel is still miles above AP's current Warpaints.
I'd argue that good quality paints are more important to the table top standard painter than the display model painter. For a display model, I'm probably going to work on it for 20, 50, maybe 100 hours depending on the model anyway. I'm going to be spending a lot of time getting the colour where I want it anyway, so the "quality" of the paint is going to have a lesser impact on me.
But for tabletop standard models, I'm only wanting to spend maybe 45 minutes on a model, so a paint that (for example) requires an extra coat or over the course of a model requires me to on spend a few extra minutes on the palette trying to get it to behave right. Those minutes extended across 50 or 100 models is absolutely massive, not to mention mind numbingly painful.
Ghaz wrote: From World War II on back "historical accuracy" is indeed an oxymoron when it comes to exact colors. When I played Flames of War back in the early 2000's there was a published author on the subject of World War II colors by the name of Mike Starmer who frequented the Battlefront forums and gave a lot of information. Between wartime shortages for the paints which dictated substitutions at the local level and well-meaning 'preservationists' who just used whatever color they thought looked "right" there really is no one right 'Dunkelgelb' or a lot of other colors.
There's some colours from WW2 that either aren't well documented or as you mention they weren't consistently applied... but there is also a lot of information on many colours that were reasonably well defined, and even the colours that aren't well defined there may still be a lot of information to guide, and where there was variation it might be possible to track down factory differences vs field application, different time periods, etc etc.
There's also artistic interpretations of colours, and I think a lot of the time that comes into it, but in my experience Vallejo colours really aren't favoured in the scale model community for historical accuracy, which was what kodos mentioned. We could go off on a long discussion on it and we could start posting colour swatches but this is hardly the place or time Kodos was clearly making a statement that I disagreed with, if you want to argue that there's no such thing as historical accuracy in colours, okay, sure, that topic is a thesis in and of itself.
I find this particular discussion unfair, modern colours are easily identifiable, pre-modern colours less so, but that doesnt necessarily mean a drop in accuracy, but a broadening of possibility alongside a widening of colour palette for a single colour.
Let us take four examples an early Imperial Roman soldier, a Napoleonic wars French soldier, a WW1 German soldier and an IDF soldier from the 6 Day War.
The IDF soldier's uniform can be researched thoroughly. Contemporary colour photography exists, so you can research units, you can research data on colour palettes on historical IDF uniforms from active sources and you might be able to talk to veterans who wore said uniforms. There is little excuse for error.
The WW1 German uniform is a little harder, there are no living eye witnesses, but it still used modern dying methods, examples of the uniforms as likely still exist in good condition, but it is astill a modern age uniform made with modern production processes and standards. You may be able to research the exact dye used and replicate it or even source some.
The Napoleonic French uniform is harder still, There are existing uniforms but they are rare, and it is unlikely you will be able to get permission to do any destructive tests on any credible sample to find the exact dye used chemically. However that matters somewhat less as this used a per-modern dying method and production process, uniforms were hand dyed and the dye hand mixed, variation will occur. The reduced certainty of the colour palette doesn't result in reduced authenticity due to a widening of the historical definition of a Napoleonic French soldiers uniform colour.
The Roman soldiers red tunic and cloak are almost impossible to source, we know they were red and that is about it. We may or may not find an ancient text revealing which dye was imported for which purpose. We can also be certain that despite Rome being a cohesive society there would be fluctuations in production processes, and also resupply. Ancient peoples would have to redye their garments as a dye would dilute out and become patchy. Furthermore soldiers away from Rome may have to source local dyes. To compound matters further, though we know for most of the history of Rome the army had a uniform red, that red may have shifted over time. Did the legionaries of Augustus Caesar have the same red as the legionaries of Marius or Scipio Africanus. We have no way of knowing, and frankly neither would they.
the only thing we can say with any certainty is that in ancient times there were only so many ways to dye a garment red. Red came from madder, but there are other sources. We can reconstruct madder dye and the ancient colour palette relatively easily, and present a swatch of a red colour that would be available to Romans. But at what intensity would this dye be used, and how far would it fade when a soldier was on campaign.
There is reason to suggest a 'Roman red' colour miniatures paint which is defendable as an authentic colour for Roman legionaries, and authenticity will be impossible to guarantee but also to disprove.
Excellent points, and on top of that in regard to more modern uniforms and paint there's fading/bleaching due to the sun and general wear and tear as well as slight differences in batches of both paint and material which are even more pronounced in certain circumstances (total war, for example). And with that comes additional inconsistency with mixed batches in the same units.
Ghaz wrote: From World War II on back "historical accuracy" is indeed an oxymoron when it comes to exact colors. When I played Flames of War back in the early 2000's there was a published author on the subject of World War II colors by the name of Mike Starmer who frequented the Battlefront forums and gave a lot of information. Between wartime shortages for the paints which dictated substitutions at the local level and well-meaning 'preservationists' who just used whatever color they thought looked "right" there really is no one right 'Dunkelgelb' or a lot of other colors.
There's some colours from WW2 that either aren't well documented or as you mention they weren't consistently applied... but there is also a lot of information on many colours that were reasonably well defined, and even the colours that aren't well defined there may still be a lot of information to guide, and where there was variation it might be possible to track down factory differences vs field application, different time periods, etc etc.
There's also artistic interpretations of colours, and I think a lot of the time that comes into it, but in my experience Vallejo colours really aren't favoured in the scale model community for historical accuracy, which was what kodos mentioned. We could go off on a long discussion on it and we could start posting colour swatches but this is hardly the place or time Kodos was clearly making a statement that I disagreed with, if you want to argue that there's no such thing as historical accuracy in colours, okay, sure, that topic is a thesis in and of itself.
I find this particular discussion unfair, modern colours are easily identifiable, pre-modern colours less so, but that doesnt necessarily mean a drop in accuracy, but a broadening of possibility alongside a widening of colour palette for a single colour.
Let us take four examples an early Imperial Roman soldier, a Napoleonic wars French soldier, a WW1 German soldier and an IDF soldier from the 6 Day War.
The IDF soldier's uniform can be researched thoroughly. Contemporary colour photography exists, so you can research units, you can research data on colour palettes on historical IDF uniforms from active sources and you might be able to talk to veterans who wore said uniforms. There is little excuse for error.
The WW1 German uniform is a little harder, there are no living eye witnesses, but it still used modern dying methods, examples of the uniforms as likely still exist in good condition, but it is astill a modern age uniform made with modern production processes and standards. You may be able to research the exact dye used and replicate it or even source some.
The Napoleonic French uniform is harder still, There are existing uniforms but they are rare, and it is unlikely you will be able to get permission to do any destructive tests on any credible sample to find the exact dye used chemically. However that matters somewhat less as this used a per-modern dying method and production process, uniforms were hand dyed and the dye hand mixed, variation will occur. The reduced certainty of the colour palette doesn't result in reduced authenticity due to a widening of the historical definition of a Napoleonic French soldiers uniform colour.
The Roman soldiers red tunic and cloak are almost impossible to source, we know they were red and that is about it. We may or may not find an ancient text revealing which dye was imported for which purpose. We can also be certain that despite Rome being a cohesive society there would be fluctuations in production processes, and also resupply. Ancient peoples would have to redye their garments as a dye would dilute out and become patchy. Furthermore soldiers away from Rome may have to source local dyes. To compound matters further, though we know for most of the history of Rome the army had a uniform red, that red may have shifted over time. Did the legionaries of Augustus Caesar have the same red as the legionaries of Marius or Scipio Africanus. We have no way of knowing, and frankly neither would they.
the only thing we can say with any certainty is that in ancient times there were only so many ways to dye a garment red. Red came from madder, but there are other sources. We can reconstruct madder dye and the ancient colour palette relatively easily, and present a swatch of a red colour that would be available to Romans. But at what intensity would this dye be used, and how far would it fade when a soldier was on campaign.
There is reason to suggest a 'Roman red' colour miniatures paint which is defendable as an authentic colour for Roman legionaries, and authenticity will be impossible to guarantee but also to disprove.
My comments were (I thought obviously ) referring to colours where we either know for sure or have a good idea what they looked like, not so much colours from 150+ years ago.
For each colour you can probably find a pages long discussion on a historic modelling forum about what it looked like (either for sure, or estimations), what variations might have existed, what options are available from different paint manufacturers to represent that colour and even what mixes you might use to recreate that colour yourself!
The comment was simply made (paraphrased) that Vallejo created their good reputation from recreation of historical colours and the scale modelling side where the only important thing is that colours are "historically accurate".
That was the comment made, and I am simply stating my opinion, based on frequenting scale modelling forums, that, no, I don't think Vallejo are well loved for recreating historic colours, and that's IMO not how they became popular or gained their good reputation. We're talking about a community that will buy 5 different variations of a colour and mix another 5 before deciding on which 1 option they use to paint their 1 model
You could of course have a discussion on every single colour in their range and what it supposed to represent and what we know about that colour and blah blah blah I don't care, I was making a broad statement in opposition to another broad statement in a thread about a completely unrelated product line from a completely different manufacturer. I don't think Vallejo rose to prominence in the historic scale modelling scene on the back of their reproduction of historically accurate colours, which was the theory posited.
My comments were (I thought obviously ) referring to colours where we either know for sure or have a good idea what they looked like, not so much colours from 150+ years ago.
For each colour you can probably find a pages long discussion on a historic modelling forum about what it looked like (either for sure, or estimations), what variations might have existed, what options are available from different paint manufacturers to represent that colour and even what mixes you might use to recreate that colour yourself!
The comment was simply made (paraphrased) that Vallejo created their good reputation from recreation of historical colours and the scale modelling side where the only important thing is that colours are "historically accurate".
That was the comment made, and I am simply stating my opinion, based on frequenting scale modelling forums, that, no, I don't think Vallejo are well loved for recreating historic colours, and that's IMO not how they became popular or gained their good reputation. We're talking about a community that will buy 5 different variations of a colour and mix another 5 before deciding on which 1 option they use to paint their 1 model
You could of course have a discussion on every single colour in their range and what it supposed to represent and what we know about that colour and blah blah blah I don't care, I was making a broad statement in opposition to another broad statement in a thread about a completely unrelated product line from a completely different manufacturer. I don't think Vallejo rose to prominence in the historic scale modelling scene on the back of their reproduction of historically accurate colours, which was the theory posited.
Its like a cone of effect, the further you recede, the wider it gets.
This refers to both authenticity of colour information and authenticity of colour itself.
Even in the modern age nobody should be rivet count exact colours as that can and will change.
Let me give you a modern example in a related field. If you want to paint a house you buy your paint from one source, I am not talking about just one colour though obvious, or even one brand of that colour, again obvious, but from ONE SHOP. Why is this? Because paint from different batches from the same factory will have minor changes, it's a quirk about mixing paint, it is never exactly the same.
The effect is subtle almost minimal but if you are unlucky you can have same colour and brand paint looking different on a wall, and because they are adjacent wall areas you notice, even if you wouldn't if it was a different part of the same building.
Now this is a more extreme example as domestic emulsion paint is thick and thickly mixed, evenness cannot be guaranteed. Textile dyes are more precise, even so you still have some fluctuation and at the scale military procurement works on it can be significant if subtle.
What is a fair test is does this colour lie within the deviation range of a particular colour chosen by the faction. Not, does this paint match this individual item exactly, after all that Olive Drab tunic provenanced to be in Nam during Tet '68 might not be the exact same colour as this one, and we are talking about base colouration here, not wear or dirt or anything else.
This deviation is fairly tight in the modern age, but does exist, then it gets a whole lot wider as we look back in time.
The Napoleonic French uniform is harder still, There are existing uniforms but they are rare, and it is unlikely you will be able to get permission to do any destructive tests on any credible sample to find the exact dye used chemically. However that matters somewhat less as this used a per-modern dying method and production process, uniforms were hand dyed and the dye hand mixed, variation will occur. The reduced certainty of the colour palette doesn't result in reduced authenticity due to a widening of the historical definition of a Napoleonic French soldiers uniform colour.
Mind you, there are uniforms from this period that are even more spectacularly rare than French Uniform coats.
The Napoleonic French uniform is harder still, There are existing uniforms but they are rare, and it is unlikely you will be able to get permission to do any destructive tests on any credible sample to find the exact dye used chemically. However that matters somewhat less as this used a per-modern dying method and production process, uniforms were hand dyed and the dye hand mixed, variation will occur. The reduced certainty of the colour palette doesn't result in reduced authenticity due to a widening of the historical definition of a Napoleonic French soldiers uniform colour.
Mind you, there are uniforms from this period that are even more spectacularly rare than French Uniform coats.
Indeed, but that doesn't remove my point. We have multiple ways to get a reasonable colour palette for gunpowder era uniforms, from art, surviving uniforms, records etc.
Anyway, on the topic of Army Painter (ya know, the topic of this thread ).
My previous post about the "Meet Goober" video was met with crickets, so here's the Meet Dana Howl and Meet Average Joe videos! If anyone has the endurance to watch these, please let the rest of us know if there's any actual news related to the paint ranges, lol.
Exciting as a concept, but needs some better examples... the Broadsword sample model there looks ok, but the gold and bronze look blotchy and flat.
And, yeah, the 'wait 24 hours' mentioned quickly as an aside before rushing straight into the next comment in the hope you won't notice it is a little disappointing.
This is the first metallic speed/contrast/etc paint to hit the market, right?
I guess the big questions will be if any of the other paint companies introduce one, how well it will perform, and if it also needs significant drying time.
I couldn't help but notice that the sample models they are working on in the video look to be pre-shaded - either drybrushed or pre-washed with a grey to gibe more definition.
Not the dwarf at the early part of the video, but the knight at 1:55 looks like he's been "slap-chop" drybrushed white over black, and the chaos warrior at 2:22 looks like he's had a grey wash (or white drybrush over grey primer).
The grainy look might be due to the drybrushing?
Doing that will certainly help the thinned metallic paints show more shading!
A 24 hour cure time makes these completely useless to me. Much faster to do a normal paint of Metallic, let it fully dry, wash and let it fully dry, then next step...
I can't be the only person that thinks they look like gak?
Grainy, uneven, lots of the shots don't even read as metallic and the ones that do are grainy metal paint instead of actual metal.
Some of the shots looked okay when the paint was being applied, so when it was still wet and hadn't settled, but none of the final images looked good.
Tannhauser42 wrote: This is the first metallic speed/contrast/etc paint to hit the market, right?
I guess the big questions will be if any of the other paint companies introduce one, how well it will perform, and if it also needs significant drying time.
I'd say there's a reason metallic contrasts don't exist... it's a solution to a question no one asked When it comes to metallics, it makes more sense to have the metallic underneath and then wash a regular paint over the top, not the other way around, so from a speed painting perspective the best metallics are the ones with good coverage and a smooth finish.
Sorry I'm probably being too negative... maybe when I see them in future when other painters get their hands on them they might impress me, but this video leaves me thoroughly unimpressed.
Not seeing any appeal at all, TBH. I use Vallejo metal colors, which are similarly easy to apply, and look significantly better, and yes, as said above, it makes more sense to shade or tint it afterwards.
Those metallics looked like utter arse. The Hoplite Gold might be decent with some suitable prep and subsequent washing (once it eventually dried...) but probably not worth the effort.
Those metallics might have a use but definitely not over a white basecoat. Maybe over a brighter metallic basecoat, could save a step when I usually basecoat, wash then re-highlight.
Those look way worse than just slopping regular metallics and hitting them with some nuln oil/reikland gloss. And you don't have to wait 2-24 hours to work on them again.
This is a mediocre solution in search of a problem.
As many have mentioned, it's a (poor) solution to a non-existant problem.
I've given AP so many chances over the years since it's easy to get their paint where I live, but every time they disappoint. Think I'm pretty much done with even checking in on their paint products.
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
I have all the current speed paint range, and I like it quite a bit for what it is (I did a lot of tests back in the day, you might look them up in the old speed paint thread). These ones, though, don't do anything for me.
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
'Dakka' is not a hive mind.
For what it's worth, I have a large collection of AP paints, and have been singing the praises of their Quickshades and sprays for years. I was initially very excited about the Speedpaint range, and even with the reactivation I'm not unhappy with the results I'm getting from them.
That being said, being disappointed in the whole reactivation thing being an issue in the first place, being further disappointed that they haven't fixed it with new additions to the range, and being less than impressed with the results of these new metallics doesn't seem unreasonable.
I'm willing to hold off judgement on the finish until we see better pics using them, but the samples in that video are not great.
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
A gakky product is gakky no matter who makes it. This gakky product happens to be made by AP. Some of their stuff is good. Airpaints are good and the skin tones box in particular is excellent, but they have made some bad moves lately. Swapping to that gel medium for their non-airpaint range has made the coverage terrible. Any paint that takes 24 freaking hours to avoid having it bleed into what it is touching has no business having "speed" in its name.
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
A crap product is a crap product regardless of who makes it. I've given AP a bunch of money over the years, tried their spray primers, their washes, bought the Speed Paint starter set.
They make some good stuff, some crap stuff.
This looks like it will fall squarely into the "crap stuff" category.
Maybe I'll be impressed when they finally come out and other painters show what can be done with them, but for an initial announcement to build excitement this certainly falls flat.
Swapping to that gel medium for their non-airpaint range
woot!?
Their mixing medium is some kind of transparent resin now. It doesn't seem to seriously impact all colors that I have tried, but enough to turn me off. For me, it has increased the separation, and even when you shake it to hell and back, still has a gross mucus like quality and many colors have poor coverage even over white. You can't drybrush or edge highlight with them. Normally I would chock it up to a bad batch, but I've purchased from multiple places over time, so I think that's just how they are now.
Albertorius wrote: Not seeing any appeal at all, TBH. I use Vallejo metal colors, which are similarly easy to apply, and look significantly better, and yes, as said above, it makes more sense to shade or tint it afterwards.
One thing that would make me happy is to see Vallejo expand the Metal Colours range.
Swapping to that gel medium for their non-airpaint range
woot!?
Their mixing medium is some kind of transparent resin now. It doesn't seem to seriously impact all colors that I have tried, but enough to turn me off. For me, it has increased the separation, and even when you shake it to hell and back, still has a gross mucus like quality and many colors have poor coverage even over white. You can't drybrush or edge highlight with them. Normally I would chock it up to a bad batch, but I've purchased from multiple places over time, so I think that's just how they are now.
Yup. This is a SPONSORED video for their "standard" line, known as Warpaints. The best this YouTuber could say about their paints while being paid to work with them is "Paint Brand DOESN'T MATTER?!"
Albertorius wrote: Not seeing any appeal at all, TBH. I use Vallejo metal colors, which are similarly easy to apply, and look significantly better, and yes, as said above, it makes more sense to shade or tint it afterwards.
This is what I was thinking. A solution looking for a problem as what's available looks better and takes way less time.
Now what would interest me is the color shift paints done similarly where the color shifted based off of the amount of paint coverage.
Swapping to that gel medium for their non-airpaint range
woot!?
Their mixing medium is some kind of transparent resin now. It doesn't seem to seriously impact all colors that I have tried, but enough to turn me off. For me, it has increased the separation, and even when you shake it to hell and back, still has a gross mucus like quality and many colors have poor coverage even over white. You can't drybrush or edge highlight with them. Normally I would chock it up to a bad batch, but I've purchased from multiple places over time, so I think that's just how they are now.
Yup. This is a SPONSORED video for their "standard" line, known as Warpaints. The best this YouTuber could say about their paints while being paid to work with them is "Paint Brand DOESN'T MATTER?!"
That was such a cringey video. Like, sure, if you're willing to put in the time you could just use craft store fingerpainting paints... doesn't mean anyone should actually do that though
Well, if something is crap or not can only be said if tested and not just because it looks different to what you are used to in a video
and for the metallic Speed Paints they look good for a niche technique that not many miniature painters are using and therefore is not available in the miniature painting range
artist brands are the only source I know and considered "bad" because they don't have a 100% coverage no matter how many layers
painting metallic this way is the opposite of the "trick" with contrast/tamiya clear/etc, were you have a bright metallic base add the colour as layer, and here you use a dark coloured base and add a metallic layer (it does not work with a white base)
I have painted dark/black silver/bronze/gold this way for more than 20 years now
hence I don't need the new AP paints as I have the brands that work best for me already but it is not crap be default just because the painting technique is different
that said I have not used any of the newer Warpaints so just know the old paints and the air range and those are fine
for the Speedpaints, those that I have are fine for what I use them too
the only thing I find very important is to never buy into a Brand or a full range
I know the different companies offer the large boxes and they often look like the best deal
but you will always end up with colours you don't like, don't use or not be happy with how they work
no matter if this is the Citadel, Vallejo, Army Painter, or even the Artist Brands, any set with more than 10/15 different paints is never worth it and you would be better of buying the individual colours from different brands than going
AllSeeingSkink wrote: That was such a cringey video. Like, sure, if you're willing to put in the time you could just use craft store fingerpainting paints... doesn't mean anyone should actually do that though
Yeah, cringe aside, the fact that "work with what you've got" and "if you're willing to put the time and effort into learning to work with these paints in a completely different way to all other paints" is the best "recommendation" that he can put into a sponsored video, then maybe the product isn't actually all that amazing. Compare his review of Duncan's paints and how you can work with them as a contrast - no pun intended - (despite his rather douchey shot at Stahly and others who give us colour chits - something actually useful to the rest of us when using new paints and colour checking).
I've said this a bunch of times but it bears repeating - no fething idea why AP changed their medium from very similar to Citadel/Vallejo to the trash gel medium. Their paints used to be really good and interchangably useful with everyone else's rather than a box of basically expensive landfill that's unsellable and not worth giving away to anyone I actually like...
Albertorius wrote: Not seeing any appeal at all, TBH. I use Vallejo metal colors, which are similarly easy to apply, and look significantly better, and yes, as said above, it makes more sense to shade or tint it afterwards.
One thing that would make me happy is to see Vallejo expand the Metal Colours range.
Me too! They are absolutely fantastic, but there's a lack of golds there.
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Monkeysloth wrote: This is what I was thinking. A problem looking for a solution as what's available looks better and takes way less time.
Now what would interest me is the color shift paints done similarly where the color shifted based off of the amount of paint coverage.
Ohhh yes, that would be cool. Not needing to whip out the airbrush to use colorshift paints properly would be very cool.
the only thing I find very important is to never buy into a Brand or a full range
I know the different companies offer the large boxes and they often look like the best deal
but you will always end up with colours you don't like, don't use or not be happy with how they work
no matter if this is the Citadel, Vallejo, Army Painter, or even the Artist Brands, any set with more than 10/15 different paints is never worth it and you would be better of buying the individual colours from different brands than going
I got given the AK "suitcase" earlier this year for my birthday and I'm incredibly happy with it and would have happily paid the price out of my own pocket. Every paint I've used has been great, and every new paint I've used from the range has been great - much more so than other "cases" I've gotten (Mecha Colour, Model Air). Have I used every colour? Nope, but I've got lots of options and I've used colours I would not have otherwise purchased because they were available to me to go grab at the exact moment I was painting a specific thing.
I think to an extent it depends on how much of a variety of models you paint (I paint a wide variety), and also how much you can afford to spend on these things (not an issue for me). I'm not saying that I'm rich, but painting is my primary hobby, and so while others won't baulk at the cost of a Jetski or a set of golf clubs, that's how I feel about paints and models. So, I can afford it and I'm ok with it. It's also a one-off purchase, rather than a recurring one. If you're painting within narrower boundaries - say, 3-4 armies, some gangs and a few warbands, then the range of colorus in larger sets may well be much more of something you'll never use.
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
Well. If they don't provide quality product can hardly expect praise?
Basic paints good. Speed paint less so.
Questionable did they fix reactivation here and of course...24h? Thanks. I can do base+shade+highlights with regular paints faster than 24h so this is hardly "speed" paint now does it? Point of "speed paint" is kind of be faster method...You trade off quality for speed...Except here you take longer.
Guess what? Just because producer name is army painter doesn't mean quality is 100% automatically no matter what white knights like you might think.
Azazelx wrote: (despite his rather douchey shot at Stahly and others who give us colour chits - something actually useful to the rest of us when using new paints and colour checking).
I have visited Stahly's site so many fecking times to use those colour swatches, so useful, I've often found myself in the hobby store flicking through Stahly's reviews deciding what to buy.
legionaires wrote: Glad to see Dakka doesn't change. Still gaking on AP.
Well. If they don't provide quality product can hardly expect praise?
Basic paints good. Speed paint less so.
Questionable did they fix reactivation here and of course...24h? Thanks. I can do base+shade+highlights with regular paints faster than 24h so this is hardly "speed" paint now does it? Point of "speed paint" is kind of be faster method...You trade off quality for speed...Except here you take longer.
Guess what? Just because producer name is army painter doesn't mean quality is 100% automatically no matter what white knights like you might think.
The reactivating is a quality of the type used in the paint supposedly and likely couldn’t be changed without the resin itself being changed, which is also what gives its quality’s with the product itself.
They have said they are looking at different blends to lessen it as a possibility.
So many people don’t want it changed and like and use the product as is without issue, as well as possible environmental issues.
Sometimes you do just have to learn and understand the paints.
Long drying times for best quality isn’t even uncommon, depending on a lot of factors.
Azazelx wrote: (despite his rather douchey shot at Stahly and others who give us colour chits - something actually useful to the rest of us when using new paints and colour checking).
I have visited Stahly's site so many fecking times to use those colour swatches, so useful, I've often found myself in the hobby store flicking through Stahly's reviews deciding what to buy.
Does stahly do them over different paints? One reason I don’t use those is rarely people do them over different base colours and styles. So i rarely find them as useful as just watching painting using specific paints.
kodos wrote: and for the metallic Speed Paints they look good for a niche technique that not many miniature painters are using and therefore is not available in the miniature painting range
I'd argue that it's a "niche technique" because it's wrong
hence I don't need the new AP paints as I have the brands that work best for me already but it is not crap be default just because the painting technique is different
I'd say it's crap because the final result doesn't look like a satisfying metal finish. Surely that's the first benchmark of a metallic paint (or technique for painting a metallic)?
The edges look dull, the finish is uneven, they look grainy, almost like a sandblasted finish but not in a satisfying way. Kind of like when I was a kid and painted metal with excessively thinned enamel paint and didn't realise it needed a 2nd coat or that I should probably just be using acrylics.
But we'll see, I don't think it's right to render final judgement until we see the final product in the hands of painters outside of AP... it's just what we have seen leaves me unimpressed.
I could see maybe using them over the top of a bright silver? Not sure the result would be better than just doing a Black/Brown/Flesh wash over the same metallic though.
Azazelx wrote: (despite his rather douchey shot at Stahly and others who give us colour chits - something actually useful to the rest of us when using new paints and colour checking).
I have visited Stahly's site so many fecking times to use those colour swatches, so useful, I've often found myself in the hobby store flicking through Stahly's reviews deciding what to buy.
Does stahly do them over different paints? One reason I don’t use those is rarely people do them over different base colours and styles. So i rarely find them as useful as just watching painting using specific paints.
Nah he doesn't, I'd love it if he did. Maybe we can petition him next time he's floating around in this thread
There's a facebook page of a GW store somewhere that did them over different bases, but I can never find it when I want it (like right now).
One thing that can be deceptive about watching videos is these paints almost always look nicest when they're still wet, it's when they dry that's important, and videos often don't show off the finished product as well as a single high quality still image in controlled lighting (Stahly does photograph his colour swatches under a specific coloured lighting for consistency).
Nah he doesn't, I'd love it if he did. Maybe we can petition him next time he's floating around in this thread
I'm sorry, but just doing these paint swatches over white takes such a ... amount of time! I promise, once I become a full time Youtuber/Content Creator, I'll make swatches all day long
So many people don’t want it changed and like and use the product as is without issue, as well as possible environmental issues.
Sometimes you do just have to learn and understand the paints.
Long drying times for best quality isn’t even uncommon, depending on a lot of factors.
I guess I'm just lucky then. SpeedPaints has been a game changer for me and workswith how I paint. I have been enjoying the painting process more now in the last 2 months using SpeedPaints than I have in the last 5 years.
People can keep feeling free to not use AP just like I will never use AK.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: There's a facebook page of a GW store somewhere that did them over different bases, but I can never find it when I want it (like right now).
AllSeeingSkink wrote:I'd argue that it's a "niche technique" because it's wrong
of course it is, same as painting with Inks and Washes was wrong instead of base/layer/highlight until GW said it is right (but only if you use Contrast, it is still wrong if you use an Ink)
but more serious, this really depends on how people learned to paint and what they are used to
I cannot make metallic look good if they are opaque or or too tense yet I would not say the GW metalics are crap just because I have no use for them and not see the advantage in changing my technique to make them work for the same result
hence I can see how those metallic can be useful and speed up painting (speed up as in low afford rather than a time thing)
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But we'll see, I don't think it's right to render final judgement until we see the final product in the hands of painters outside of AP... it's just what we have seen leaves me unimpressed.
I could see maybe using them over the top of a bright silver? Not sure the result would be better than just doing a Black/Brown/Flesh wash over the same metallic though.
would need to see how they look over black rather than a bright colour to make a decision if they are worth testing them or not
from the vid it is hard to tell of the metallic or the base is the problem
Azazelx wrote:.....
I also paint a lot but tend to mix the colours rather than using different shades out of a bottle and also go for a project with the 4-6 basic colours I want to use and mix everything else
but YMMV
I feel like army painter has a bad rap tbh.
The only real problem I have is the glossyness, but that fan be fixed with some medium and a matte varnish later.
The reactivating is a quality of the type used in the paint supposedly and likely couldn’t be changed without the resin itself being changed, which is also what gives its quality’s with the product itself.
They have said they are looking at different blends to lessen it as a possibility.
So many people don’t want it changed and like and use the product as is without issue, as well as possible environmental issues.
Sometimes you do just have to learn and understand the paints.
Long drying times for best quality isn’t even uncommon, depending on a lot of factors.
The 'long drying time' isn't really the issue though. It's the fact that the long drying time is an attribute of paints marketed as 'speedpaints'. AP retroactively trying to reframe it as the 'speed' coming from them being quick to apply doesn't really change that. If they had instead called them 'Onecoat' or something, and had been upfront about the reactivation in the original marketing (and even more ideally leaned into it and showed the ways it can be beneficial), I feel opinions on the range would be much less negative.
For the metals, if they have to be left for 24 hours or more to cure properly, it's difficult to see how they're a better option than a coat of regular metal and a wash unless they give outstanding results... and that doesn't appear to be the case.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:I'd argue that it's a "niche technique" because it's wrong
of course it is, same as painting with Inks and Washes was wrong instead of base/layer/highlight until GW said it is right (but only if you use Contrast, it is still wrong if you use an Ink)
Nah, that's not a good simile I know you're jesting, but yeah, painting with washes and inks is a technique that predates GW, it just saw a renaissance among wargamers when contrasts came out. I can show you some models in my gallery that were painted with inks from before the existence of GW's contrasts.
but more serious, this really depends on how people learned to paint and what they are used to
I cannot make metallic look good if they are opaque or or too tense yet I would not say the GW metalics are crap just because I have no use for them and not see the advantage in changing my technique to make them work for the same result
hence I can see how those metallic can be useful and speed up painting (speed up as in low afford rather than a time thing)
I'm not really judging the technique, I'm judging the final result.
What technique are you planning to use that you think will give a good result? What metallics do you currently use that you don't like metallics that have a good opacity?
If I'm trying to paint a metal fast I generally slop on some Leadbelcher, Retributor Armour or Balthasar Gold and then throw a wash over it. I have also used Vallejo Metal Colours but not in the context of speed painting, I think they're maybe too runny and would end up where you don't want them, but perhaps it'd be interesting to try slopping on a Vallejo Metal Colour and see if that's a good speed painting option.
I'm all for speed painting techniques, but they still have to look somewhat decent, if you can get a much better result for very little extra effort then I don't think the speed painting technique is worth it. e.g. If your speed painting technique takes you from a 60 minute paint job to a 10 minute paint job, awesome, but if it's only taking you from a 15 minute paint job to a 10 minute paint job and looks much worse, I don't really see the value in that.
Currently I have various artists/studio (Schmincke, Kreul or Marabou) quality metallics, depending on what the local store as on stock
Usually I paint a dark base (black, dark brown or dark blue) and a single layer of 1-2 metals (not fully mixed so that you get a light colour shift or marble)
kodos wrote: Currently I have various artists/studio (Schmincke, Kreul or Marabou) quality metallics, depending on what the local store as on stock
Usually I paint a dark base (black, dark brown or dark blue) and a single layer of 1-2 metals (not fully mixed so that you get a light colour shift or marble)
It is fast, but needs to try, so I usually do it last before I go to bed so it gets almost a day until I continue
Got a link to one of the metallics you use? When I've tried artists paints that were metallics, they were more fussy and had larger metallic flakes than most of the hobby-grade stuff I've used. So are the ones you're using thin and transparent out of the bottle?
I don't really think the GW metallics are the be all and end all, but the specific ones I mentioned I like for their ability to apply quickly and roughly without too much thought in the context of speed painting.
Your pics are a little too small for me to see, are they going for a true-metallic finish (i.e. where you can't see the metal flakes and it looks like a continuous metal)?
There's a lot of ways to paint metallics, I'm always happy to hear new techniques. If the new AP thingos work well in a different technique then I'll be happy to give it a go. Currently I'm just going off their promotional material where they look like something I would have painted as an 8 year old back in the 90's using my good ol' Testors enamel metallics
They are thinner out of the bottle than GW ones and half-transparent
I don't apply the like a Wash or AP did in the promo but more like a wet dry-brushing (if this makes sense)
Pigments are for sure larger than GW ones but not in a way that you see the flocks afterwards
Going for a true-metal but more as shiny colour rather than a chrome like look
2 hours. They say 2 hours in the video before adding additional washes and highlights. 24 hours is for a full cure.
Not that I intend to buy them. I really really like AP speedpaints but these metallics look awful. I'll stick to regular metallics and a wash+highlight, these just don't look like a good effect, the "silver" just looks like sparkly grey and the gold and bronze are only moderately less-bad.
Like somebody said upthread, AP is very hit and miss, and these 3 metallics are complete miss
TalonZahn wrote: Army Painter Speed Paints - Best Results after waiting 24 hours for each application.
There is a certain Onion/BabyonBee element of satire to that statement, lol. I hope they don't actually say that in the official promo video!
They literally do say that in the promo video, around 3:30
In unrelated news, I sold my Speed paint Mega Set this week to someone who enjoy them, I kept the monster brush, which is good and reduces the loss I made on it.
TalonZahn wrote: Army Painter Speed Paints - Best Results after waiting 24 hours for each application.
There is a certain Onion/BabyonBee element of satire to that statement, lol. I hope they don't actually say that in the official promo video!
They literally do say that in the promo video, around 3:30
In unrelated news, I sold my Speed paint Mega Set this week to someone who enjoy them, I kept the monster brush, which is good and reduces the loss I made on it.
The Monster Brush is the most used part of the Starter set for me, use it way more than the actual paints
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Kalamadea wrote: 2 hours. They say 2 hours in the video before adding additional washes and highlights. 24 hours is for a full cure.
Not that I intend to buy them. I really really like AP speedpaints but these metallics look awful. I'll stick to regular metallics and a wash+highlight, these just don't look like a good effect, the "silver" just looks like sparkly grey and the gold and bronze are only moderately less-bad.
Like somebody said upthread, AP is very hit and miss, and these 3 metallics are complete miss
I will openly admit I didn't actually watch the video through. I hate videos, lol. I just fast forwarded through to see the application and results, as you say, they look awful.
So many people don’t want it changed and like and use the product as is without issue, as well as possible environmental issues.
Sometimes you do just have to learn and understand the paints.
Long drying times for best quality isn’t even uncommon, depending on a lot of factors.
To be blunt, there's a lot of people who are willing to put up or even be happy with a degree of gakky product because they either think they are getting a "good deal" or have lower standards. That's why Army Painter's regular warpaints still have a market. If you just want models with colour on them for tabletop use quickly, then they're probably fine. Some others do indeed think that the reactivation is a "Feature" but obviously AP themselves don't think so as their product is supposed to be a direct replacement for Contrast. Let's not pretend that AP are innovators in any way - they just do GW alternatives. Which isn' t a bad thing in and of itself - but it can come with lower quality as well as good product (see: Mantic)
I don't yet have my hands on the Vallejo paints, but I do have all of the Contrasts and all of the GSW Dipping Inks. Neither reactivate. If 3/4 products don't fail for some people but your product sometimes doesn't do what it's supposed to, then there's an issue with the product and it deserves to be in 4th place and you deserve any criticism that you get...
Does stahly do them over different paints? One reason I don’t use those is rarely people do them over different base colours and styles. So i rarely find them as useful as just watching painting using specific paints.
For the closest to that, you'll need to seek out the bases done by the staff of one particular GW who did a large number of contrasts over scenci bases. I have those in the same folder as Stahly's chits.
If you want more than that, you might have to do them yourself - there are a LOT of colours after all, and dark red is much different to pink. If you do, please post them up for use by all of the community. Ninjon using a selection of the new paints to paint a random model isn't going to be useful at all if you're trying to quickly check what Shyish Purple looks like in terms of coverage and darkness for a model that you're painting right now. To be clear, I've got no issue with him using the paints to paint a full model. I do have an issue with him unnecessarily being a witch about other people creating swatches that can be used by anyone quickly to check over an entire range as though he's in some way better.
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I guess I'm just lucky then. SpeedPaints has been a game changer for me and workswith how I paint. I have been enjoying the painting process more now in the last 2 months using SpeedPaints than I have in the last 5 years.
People can keep feeling free to not use AP just like I will never use AK.
That's actually the perfect attitude. If ther product is working for you, then keep using it and enjoying yourself.
I don't think anyone is calling you a bad person for enjoying your hobby. We have an issue with AP's product, not the actual hobbyists who happen to be using the product. If they somehow manage to fix the reactivation, I'll also likely purchase and use them myself. (not sure about those metallics, though!)
I stupidly bought the full set on release. I barely touch them. I lost a lot of faith in army painter. I don't hate that they reactivate - in fact when I do a wash I almost always want to be able to wipe away the wash that settles on top of details. But man, shifty thing to put out like that. I also got burned by their new formulation of metallics. The old ones were near like the gw coat de arms stuff.
Anyone want to give a quick summary? Or at least tell us if there's anything meaningful? The last videos from AP were all waffle, not sure I'm willing to give AP another 4 and a half minutes of my time.
Anyone want to give a quick summary? Or at least tell us if there's anything meaningful? The last videos from AP were all waffle, not sure I'm willing to give AP another 4 and a half minutes of my time.
I'm curious too and can't watch at work.
I picked up the original set for £30 a few weeks back and just tried them recently.
Honestly I'm REALLY impressed, I think they're nicer to work with and give better final results than contrast.
That said, I've not added anything over speedspaint yet so I have no idea how the reactivation will bite me.
Edit.
Watched the video after shift. They say they've fixed reactivation but other than that it's the same and more colours coming.
No, I watched and it's all the same BS "we listened to YOU and so we SOLVED reactivation! Because we listen!", literally no reason to watch it, I kinda regret giving them my time
But mostly I regret it because I liked the old reactivating formula, and I'm so so SO SOOOO bitter about AP being bullied into changing it. The entire video is literally "it no longer reactivates, it really REALLY doesn't reactivate, and we made it not reactivate! so it doesn't reactivate so people that complained really REALLY loudly on the internet that it reactivates well it no longer reactivates so we changed it even though some people liked it and now as you can see it totes don't reactivate so it no longer reactivates and you should kno wit doesn';t reactivate"
So supposedly, it doesn't reactivate now, but still acts exactly the same. Apparently. You donkey-caves won, I guess! Congrats! I haven't used AP speedpaint for anything since they announced it would be reformulated, despite LOVING how it works, I can't actually use it now because I can't replace it when I run out.
Good to hear. If it doesn't reactivate, I'll buy the set now.
Well, after hearing from others that can confirm it.
If you're concerned about replenishing it, maybe stop insulting people and just put your money where your mouth is and go stock up while they're still out there. I stocked up on the both the discontinued Citadel Washes and Vallejo Model Colour recently.
Azazelx wrote: If you're concerned about replenishing it, maybe stop insulting people and just put your money where your mouth is and go stock up
Edit to be less antagonistic: I literally have. I own 3+ of most of these AP colors, the dropper bottles
Money where my mouth is: DM me. I live in southern CA. For a decent price I'll buy the old AP speedpaints from you if you really hate them so much, if you REALLY feel "so swindled!" by this "dastardley" company!
It’s likely just a change to the cure time, as with most paints is just a timing thing.
Even desired in uses for a lot.
Even the videos demonstrating it never where showing the extremes some people where saying it went to.
User error is a big possibility with a paint like this, and in other places people seem to have little issue.
So hopefully it keeps the useful properties that it has, but sad if we lose them.
How odd that they removed reactivation when it was a feature, not a bug, by their own claims. Doesn't this make the new product worse than the old then?
lord_blackfang wrote: How odd that they removed reactivation when it was a feature, not a bug, by their own claims. Doesn't this make the new product worse than the old then?
It may, but there was some very vocal people, so they may be trying to make them happy. Is that bad? People say if they make the product better for them they would be happy.
I would be happy if more people are happy with the paint, but I will be sad if the property I enjoy and use becomes a issue :(
Azazelx wrote: If you're concerned about replenishing it, maybe stop insulting people and just put your money where your mouth is and go stock up
Edit to be less antagonistic: I literally have. I own 3+ of most of these AP colors, the dropper bottles
Money where my mouth is: DM me. I live in southern CA. For a decent price I'll buy the old AP speedpaints from you if you really hate them so much, if you REALLY feel "so swindled!" by this "dastardley" company!
That's an edit to be less antagonistic? Stop being so dramatically immature, please.
I didn't buy the warpaints - I almost did, but luckily I saw the reviews that mentioned that they reactivate. I did get swindled by their reformated-to-gak Warpaints years ago, I'd happily sell those to you but I doubt you're interested in those.
My point is that you complaining that you can't use the ones you have because they'll run out one day is not the sympathy-gaining statement that you appeared to think it is. Plenty of bottles of Speedpaints with the formuation that you like should still be out there in the wild, so use your initiative and go buy them while you can. Buy a lifetime's supply. It's doable if you've got the cash and are willing to do a little work.
lord_blackfang wrote: How odd that they removed reactivation when it was a feature, not a bug, by their own claims. Doesn't this make the new product worse than the old then?
Doesn't really matter what they say or do, in the end internet memory is fickle and fades away fast.
Best of luck to them and who decides to invests in their paint ranges.
lord_blackfang wrote: How odd that they removed reactivation when it was a feature, not a bug, by their own claims. Doesn't this make the new product worse than the old then?
It may, but there was some very vocal people, so they may be trying to make them happy. Is that bad? People say if they make the product better for them they would be happy.
I would be happy if more people are happy with the paint, but I will be sad if the property I enjoy and use becomes a issue :(
If we're being honest, the Speedpaints aren't supposed to be a new innovative product that reactivates. It's supposed to steal some of GW's market share for Contrast Paint. Just like Vallejo's version. If it doesn't act like Contrast in being colourfast, then it's not going to make them the money that they'd like. People can complain that it was "a few loud complainers" or what have you, but the product was shipped as "close enough" but not what it was supposed to be. How aware of the reactivation issue (or how much they thought it was "good enough") we'll likely never know unless working there now someone does a Peachy in a few years and spills the tea.
Again, I'd suggest buying up the colours you find most useful while you can still easily get them. It's entirely doable to get hold of a lifetime's supply of what you need with a bit of time, money and effort.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have several more of these. Specific paints from Vallejo Game Colour, etc - hell I even have these. (showing just the unopened ones).
Sorry, if this was answered in the video (I'm older and prefer to read than sit in front of long videos), but if I go to a store and buy some, how will I know if it's older re-activates stuff od the newer formula? Have they changed the labels or something?
Also, on an non-speedpaint matter, there's been several AP colours I've used over GW/Vallejo. These were the 3 main silver/metal colours, black and white.
I recently replaced my black and white and they seem to now be an awfully thick toothpaste consitency. Did I get a bad batch or have these changed?
Gimgamgoo wrote: Sorry, if this was answered in the video (I'm older and prefer to read than sit in front of long videos), but if I go to a store and buy some, how will I know if it's older re-activates stuff od the newer formula? Have they changed the labels or something?
Also, on an non-speedpaint matter, there's been several AP colours I've used over GW/Vallejo. These were the 3 main silver/metal colours, black and white.
I recently replaced my black and white and they seem to now be an awfully thick toothpaste consitency. Did I get a bad batch or have these changed?
I don’t know if they have said yet, but I suspect a change to the label. Depending on how different it could be phased in.
Could also be lose bottle and some evaporated water, if you can ad some water in often it can thin it out if that is a issue. Won’t need much at all, and shake it well. Normally I find that’s the most likely cause if the paint itself is good.
Speed Paint one was the best thing since slide kittens, but some, but not all sometimes reactivated..
this resulted in "thats intentional" and an almost Apple "you are using it wrong!"
and now they have release Speed Paint Two, which "fixed" what they insisted was intentional behaviour?
friend locally used the first lot, he worked around the reactivation by mucking with the order of painting to apply colours that did it last, the stuff looks decent, but it looks like its a thick wash/stain over a light base. does the job though
just seems a bit like a company introduced a new phone, sorry paint, that didn't work if you held it wrong, sorry applied it wrong while all the time saying nothing was wrong and then some people got upset, and some others got upset some were not upset.
if you like it use it, if you don't don't, seems too many are trying to make click bait videos for you turnip and making a molehill out of a mountain
Will the new formula be marked any differently than the original formula? I haven’t done much painting with them, but when I did I really enjoyed how some of the colors came out (and not so much others). I had some minor reactivation woes, but nothing that stands out from my already lackluster painting technique.
Azazelx wrote: If you're concerned about replenishing it, maybe stop insulting people and just put your money where your mouth is and go stock up
Edit to be less antagonistic: I literally have. I own 3+ of most of these AP colors, the dropper bottles
Money where my mouth is: DM me. I live in southern CA. For a decent price I'll buy the old AP speedpaints from you if you really hate them so much, if you REALLY feel "so swindled!" by this "dastardley" company!
I’m in Orange County. I have one of the small starters, if you want it. I’d be looking to trade for the new formulation speedpaints or MSRP cash so I can buy the new formulation speedpaints. I’ve only used my speedpaints for a handful of minis, the ones I posted earlier in the thread. Let me know if you are interested.
leopard wrote: friend locally used the first lot, he worked around the reactivation by mucking with the order of painting to apply colours that did it last, the stuff looks decent, but it looks like its a thick wash/stain over a light base. does the job though
I have done a similar thing where I use AP blue on my Tyranids, because it settles into the crevices more easily than Contrasts... but because of reactivation I do the blue last and use GW Contrast for the bone, GW Contrast for the red, and only use the AP on the blue armour as my last step so I don't have to worry about reactivation.
But I do hope they get rid of the activation without adversely affecting the levelling properties. AP absolutely levels better than GW's contrast, which makes it better suited to many tasks where it's harder to avoid splotchiness and coffee stains. But the reactivation and also the bleeding into other surrounding colours has meant I rarely use the AP stuff. Also the AP seems to have duller colours, so some areas where I want a more vibrant end result I'll reach for GW.
leopard wrote: friend locally used the first lot, he worked around the reactivation by mucking with the order of painting to apply colours that did it last, the stuff looks decent, but it looks like its a thick wash/stain over a light base. does the job though
I have done a similar thing where I use AP blue on my Tyranids, because it settles into the crevices more easily than Contrasts... but because of reactivation I do the blue last and use GW Contrast for the bone, GW Contrast for the red, and only use the AP on the blue armour as my last step so I don't have to worry about reactivation.
But I do hope they get rid of the activation without adversely affecting the levelling properties. AP absolutely levels better than GW's contrast, which makes it better suited to many tasks where it's harder to avoid splotchiness and coffee stains. But the reactivation and also the bleeding into other surrounding colours has meant I rarely use the AP stuff. Also the AP seems to have duller colours, so some areas where I want a more vibrant end result I'll reach for GW.
A good way to get more vibrant colours is using one over another, can get some very nice results.
But can be a pain remembering the exact ratio if you do something really great, then two months later have to recreate it.
I Need a good notes app for painting.
leopard wrote: friend locally used the first lot, he worked around the reactivation by mucking with the order of painting to apply colours that did it last, the stuff looks decent, but it looks like its a thick wash/stain over a light base. does the job though
I have done a similar thing where I use AP blue on my Tyranids, because it settles into the crevices more easily than Contrasts... but because of reactivation I do the blue last and use GW Contrast for the bone, GW Contrast for the red, and only use the AP on the blue armour as my last step so I don't have to worry about reactivation.
But I do hope they get rid of the activation without adversely affecting the levelling properties. AP absolutely levels better than GW's contrast, which makes it better suited to many tasks where it's harder to avoid splotchiness and coffee stains. But the reactivation and also the bleeding into other surrounding colours has meant I rarely use the AP stuff. Also the AP seems to have duller colours, so some areas where I want a more vibrant end result I'll reach for GW.
A good way to get more vibrant colours is using one over another, can get some very nice results.
But can be a pain remembering the exact ratio if you do something really great, then two months later have to recreate it.
I Need a good notes app for painting.
I literally just have a text file that I open in notepad to record how I painted certain things Sometimes I forget to write it down though.
But yeah, with the dullness thing, I tried using AP paints over metals for some Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion style schemes but they end up looking very washed out (even with a coat of gloss varnish to bring back the shine).
leopard wrote: friend locally used the first lot, he worked around the reactivation by mucking with the order of painting to apply colours that did it last, the stuff looks decent, but it looks like its a thick wash/stain over a light base. does the job though
I have done a similar thing where I use AP blue on my Tyranids, because it settles into the crevices more easily than Contrasts... but because of reactivation I do the blue last and use GW Contrast for the bone, GW Contrast for the red, and only use the AP on the blue armour as my last step so I don't have to worry about reactivation.
But I do hope they get rid of the activation without adversely affecting the levelling properties. AP absolutely levels better than GW's contrast, which makes it better suited to many tasks where it's harder to avoid splotchiness and coffee stains. But the reactivation and also the bleeding into other surrounding colours has meant I rarely use the AP stuff. Also the AP seems to have duller colours, so some areas where I want a more vibrant end result I'll reach for GW.
A good way to get more vibrant colours is using one over another, can get some very nice results.
But can be a pain remembering the exact ratio if you do something really great, then two months later have to recreate it.
I Need a good notes app for painting.
I literally just have a text file that I open in notepad to record how I painted certain things Sometimes I forget to write it down though.
But yeah, with the dullness thing, I tried using AP paints over metals for some Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion style schemes but they end up looking very washed out (even with a coat of gloss varnish to bring back the shine).
I haven’t try those specific colours, but I have found purple Alchemy looks nice with the super bright silver from reaper. Do first a heavy dry brush, then PA, then dry brush again over the top. Very light.
If I ever get thousand sons or alpha legion I will have to try!
I mostly use it for Camo or hair, then acrylic over the top. Skin as well is very exciting to do.
I was using a writing app that gave really easy to ad photos, but I got lazy at taking the photos.
I don't really find I need photos for keeping track of my painting, I just do something like...
Spoiler:
Skaven Thrower:
Skin/fur: 50/50 P3 brown ink to Vallejo Game Ink Skin Wash over a Gunze 1500 primer, pick out face/hands/tail with cadian fleshtone, highlight face/hands with kislev flesh.
Metals: 50/50 Leadbelcher and Balthasar Gold, wash Dark Tone, highlight scratchily with Runefang Steel.
Claws/teeth: Steel legion drab, , wash dark tone, highlight rakarth/steel legion mix, add in white for final edge highlight
Eys: Mephiston -> blood -> Orange fire -> tamiya clear red
Green cloth: basecoat Luftwaffe Camo Green, highlight 50:50 LCG:Iosan Green, highlight Iosan Green, edge highlight 1:1:1 Vallejo Green Grey 886:Iosan:Necrotic Green, mix in a bit of white for final edge highlight.
Yellow Armour: Averland Sunset base, wash Vallejo Sepia Shade Wash, touch up Averland, mix in white for edge highlights.
And I'll just have a file, for example, for all my Blood Bowl models, and another for all my Epic models, so that way it's pretty easy to find how I painted different models and don't really need a photo to remind me.
leopard wrote: friend locally used the first lot, he worked around the reactivation by mucking with the order of painting to apply colours that did it last, the stuff looks decent, but it looks like its a thick wash/stain over a light base. does the job though
I have done a similar thing where I use AP blue on my Tyranids, because it settles into the crevices more easily than Contrasts... but because of reactivation I do the blue last and use GW Contrast for the bone, GW Contrast for the red, and only use the AP on the blue armour as my last step so I don't have to worry about reactivation.
But I do hope they get rid of the activation without adversely affecting the levelling properties. AP absolutely levels better than GW's contrast, which makes it better suited to many tasks where it's harder to avoid splotchiness and coffee stains. But the reactivation and also the bleeding into other surrounding colours has meant I rarely use the AP stuff. Also the AP seems to have duller colours, so some areas where I want a more vibrant end result I'll reach for GW.
sounds about right
have found with GW contrast, cut it 50-50 or 25-75 with the medium and the splotchyness goes away, obviously a thinner colour though not hard to add a second or third layer to get more intensity where required
nice change from the washes where the GW ones feel like VMC washes that have already been diluted.
Thinning GW contrast with a lot of medium, to me that's more a technique if I'm trying to paint something carefully, not so much if I'm trying to paint something quickly. Like, it's not hard to add a 2nd or 3rd layer, but it turns my 15 minute paint job into a 30 or 45 minute paint job
Again, I'd suggest buying up the colours you find most useful while you can still easily get them. It's entirely doable to get hold of a lifetime's supply of what you need with a bit of time, money and effort.
Spoiler:
You know something I dont about GW ink stocks? Are those due to be discontinued colours? That is a lot of pots.
I have several more of these. Specific paints from Vallejo Game Colour, etc - hell I even have these. (showing just the unopened ones).
Spoiler:
I have those also, and in about the same numbers including open ones, and the round pots that preceded them. Next to none of them have tried out and they still work fine. The pots they replaced them with, all failed within a short period of time, and the range used to replace those right forward to the paint redesign.
Those hex pots are much valued for good reason.
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AllSeeingSkink wrote: I don't really find I need photos for keeping track of my painting, I just do something like...
Spoiler:
Skaven Thrower:
Skin/fur: 50/50 P3 brown ink to Vallejo Game Ink Skin Wash over a Gunze 1500 primer, pick out face/hands/tail with cadian fleshtone, highlight face/hands with kislev flesh.
Metals: 50/50 Leadbelcher and Balthasar Gold, wash Dark Tone, highlight scratchily with Runefang Steel.
Claws/teeth: Steel legion drab, , wash dark tone, highlight rakarth/steel legion mix, add in white for final edge highlight
Eys: Mephiston -> blood -> Orange fire -> tamiya clear red
Green cloth: basecoat Luftwaffe Camo Green, highlight 50:50 LCG:Iosan Green, highlight Iosan Green, edge highlight 1:1:1 Vallejo Green Grey 886:Iosan:Necrotic Green, mix in a bit of white for final edge highlight.
Yellow Armour: Averland Sunset base, wash Vallejo Sepia Shade Wash, touch up Averland, mix in white for edge highlights.
And I'll just have a file, for example, for all my Blood Bowl models, and another for all my Epic models, so that way it's pretty easy to find how I painted different models and don't really need a photo to remind me.
I have a notebook to do just that. It is most useful for jobs I go back to, add to, if repairs are needed, for forward planning of new projects, or if I do something right and want to remember it.
