em_en_oh_pee wrote: They really, really need to release a second Mega-gargant kit with new legs. If you only have 2-3 of a model in an army, having them all posed the same looks pretty meh.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: They really, really need to release a second Mega-gargant kit with new legs. If you only have 2-3 of a model in an army, having them all posed the same looks pretty meh.
That's my biggest problem with them. The giant giants are stupidly expensive even compared to other GW kits of that size, and that extra money still buys you the same legs over and over again. GW can and should do better.
GaroRobe wrote: The model looks fine. But nothing about him screams monster hunter or killer. The bits that are monster themed come in the generic kit and the head, hand, and weapon also don’t seem right. Why is the crazy beast hunter munching on normal humans and not a monstrous mammoth? Why isn’t his club a giant bone or skull?
Maybe he smashes all beasts great and small, but vastly prefers to smash the small ones?
GaroRobe wrote: The model looks fine. But nothing about him screams monster hunter or killer. The bits that are monster themed come in the generic kit and the head, hand, and weapon also don’t seem right. Why is the crazy beast hunter munching on normal humans and not a monstrous mammoth? Why isn’t his club a giant bone or skull?
Because the model is designed before the rules and what this actually is is filler for the King Brodd upgrade sprue.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: They really, really need to release a second Mega-gargant kit with new legs. If you only have 2-3 of a model in an army, having them all posed the same looks pretty meh.
Yea this.
Also agreed.
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GaroRobe wrote: The model looks fine. But nothing about him screams monster hunter or killer. The bits that are monster themed come in the generic kit and the head, hand, and weapon also don’t seem right. Why is the crazy beast hunter munching on normal humans and not a monstrous mammoth? Why isn’t his club a giant bone or skull?
Yeah; the others all have their unique culture stamped all over the model with their accessories.
I'll add to the sentiment that a second giant kit really needed a new base body. The leg pose and details are way too samey to have a bunch of giants in your army, especially if you already did the first three versions.
Prometheum5 wrote: I'll add to the sentiment that a second giant kit really needed a new base body. The leg pose and details are way too samey to have a bunch of giants in your army, especially if you already did the first three versions.
I have a feeling this will be a reboxed (and upcharged) kit rather than a new one, which feeds into the problem.
Hanskrampf wrote: So is this an additional upgrade sprue or built from different parts of the "old" kit arranged differently?
Both. You can see same parts from old ones as well as new parts(like head).
So it's basically old kit + new sprue. Q thus is is the old box staying and new one with this for higher price or old replaced with new box with new sprue added and higher price(which makes army even more expensive to collect but hey that's GW for you).
Old kit+new sprue for old price would of course be best for customers but that's the least likely scenario.
It's got part of gate breaker and warstomper as bare minimum. Not sure about kraken eater. But think it's safe to say all old sprues are in the box that builds this.
I'd guess we'll end up with the old kit making the 3 mega gargants, and a separate new kit making King Brod and this new dude. They'll share the same leg sprue but have different other one (s)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I'd guess we'll end up with the old kit making the 3 mega gargants, and a separate new kit making King Brod and this new dude. They'll share the same leg sprue but have different other one (s)
Eh not really. It shares parts of gate breaker and warstomper as bare minimum. Unless they do new sprue with those parts(this btw costs a lot more to them than just chucking in old sprues to the box...) they CANNOT do kit that does just those 2 but not the old ones. The sprues have all 3 mega gargant bits intermingled.
Unless they do brand new sprues(and at that point they could just as well do entire new kit with new legs for same effort.
It's either new box with old sprues+new sprue for higher price along old box or there will be just one box with all sprues.
Knights and Gargants are a perfect showcase GW's current limitations. Lots of intricate detail (which you may or may not appreciate) juxtaposed against a very limited (none!) posability which is just exacerbated by the size of said kits along with the numbers required to field them on the tabletop. A lot of work went into texturing and adding a variety of minute details and character to what are effectively one standardised template, a showroom dummy. For giant stompy war robot chassis I find it lazy but forgiveable. For individualistic, living breathing creatures? It just looks all sorts of wrong! It may be a minor gripe to some, for myself it's put me off the range completely. (I enjoy putting Gundam kits together, which is admittedly apples to oranges but likely the source of my frustration with GW's bigger kits that require repetition on the tabletop)
Couple erratas up. Big new: Purple sun got hit by a nerf bat. Insta kill doesn't insta kill for 9+ wounds(MW's instead), range on that to 1" and 90 pts.
Some other minor changes for tzeentch stuff in new box but huzah for purple sun.
Now if they would fix the Archaon damned bounty hunter...
Secondary attacks not spectacular and while extra attack worth noting the 3 attack version is worst main weapon of mega gargants. So not that spectacular guy.
The thing about giants is that they carry a bunch of looted equipment, so pretty much anything from a bits box can be strapped to them to cover a join or change their outline. I've seen lots of amazing conversions. It is difficult to make them put their other leg forwards though.
kodos wrote: that you can add a lot of stuff on top of it does not change the main pose which is the same for all of them
I get that this is Dakka's hobby horse until the next release but it's simply false. Only the legs are the same so you can easily make 3-4 different poses.
so they still have the same pose but a different top
yeah, you get what you pay for and no if you call those different poses, you have never seen a model kit that can do different ones
and yes, if a company charges a premium price similar to a perfect grade Gundam were you need 3 of them, I expect at least 3 different ones and not "you can make them look less similar if you place them differently on the base"
not like other Giants have the same problem, but those are not meant to be 4 times the same model in 1 army and come in a fraction of the price
?
other Giants models don't have the problem of being the same pose, as they are not meant to be multiples in the army, hence that there is no fully poseable Giants kit out there is outside of SoB a problem
Having got the three originals, the leg thing is blown far out of proportion. The variation in head, arms and weapons really mitigates the leg pose "issue".
kodos wrote: that you can add a lot of stuff on top of it does not change the main pose which is the same for all of them
I get that this is Dakka's hobby horse until the next release but it's simply false. Only the legs are the same so you can easily make 3-4 different poses.
kodos wrote: that you can add a lot of stuff on top of it does not change the main pose which is the same for all of them
I get that this is Dakka's hobby horse until the next release but it's simply false. Only the legs are the same so you can easily make 3-4 different poses.
Sorry but different weapon ain't different pose.
Arms in different positions are, though. Same with the heads. I find them less clone-like than Knights.
I am more forgiving of "clones" when the model is a machine, created from ancient STCs.
When it is a model of a living being, the duplicity in the posing, even "only the legs" is much more obvious and jarring. Particularly when the legs are bare or covered in non-rigid materials.
I honestly thought the giant kit had been recut, but I see the old rectangle base is still on the sprues,
Otherwise that expansion is going to fall flat on its face when the models for it alone cost more than Cursed City does right now (GW are making noise that its coming back, but its easily for sale at a range of 3rd party stores right now).
That's the big problem I see, no included models and no discount over GW's model retail is going to kill it - and I really don't want it dead. I want to see CC do well and for the Quest game concept to be expanded. I had high hopes considering GW blended this game with a lot of core models for Soulblight and likely many of those light heroes will fit into Cities of Sigmar. Esp when they also relented on the silly idea of making you take all the CC heroes in one 700 point block and instead broke them up to be their own models.
Now THAT is a motherfething Wight King. He isn't some Necromancer's thrall; he tells THEM what to do.
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Inquisitor Gideon wrote: To be honest, unless you're really looking for it, the legs don't stick out at all.
Yeah, they did a really good job with the posing and camera angle. Obviously it sticks out more in actual gameplay but ultimately the monopose legs aren't THAT bad. A downside but not a crippling one.
I really like that this set of skeletons aren't too divorced from the look of the current grave guard. The Cursed City skeletons, while cool looking, in no way match up with the unfortunately discontinued VC skeletons.
Might have to pick them up, as the warband as a whole are pretty nice.
Snrub wrote: I really like that this set of skeletons aren't too divorced from the look of the current grave guard. The Cursed City skeletons, while cool looking, in no way match up with the unfortunately discontinued VC skeletons.
Might have to pick them up, as the warband as a whole are pretty nice.
I agree regarding the old skellies, but between CC and last year's SBGL Battleforce, most SBGL players are already fielding armies with the new ones. Its the old GG that feel out of place.
I don't care about this mini game, but if offered 10 man boxes of these to replace the current GG for AoS, I'm down.
Geifer wrote: Also has this nice group picture. Don't worry, you'll never notice there's only one leg pose!
If anything, the three Mega-Gargants on front having the exact same right arm are far more noticeable then having the same legs.
1.- Being human-like, the point of focus we're naturally drawn is above the waist, towards the face and chest.
2- Unlike the regular 40K Knights, they have at the very least they have twice the amount of feet option.
3.- If you're drawn are legs and/or feet, well, you do you, my sibling in Christ, we all have our likings.
1.- Being human-like, the point of focus we're naturally drawn is above the waist, towards the face and chest.
2- Unlike the regular 40K Knights, they have at the very least they have twice the amount of feet option.
3.- If you're drawn are legs and/or feet, well, you do you, my sibling in Christ, we all have our likings.
It's that massive, bare expanse of thigh that draws the eye... Maybe if they had some bits of bling to cover that, in the same way they have different clothing and decorations on other parts of the body, the similarities would be dulled.
It's that massive, bare expanse of thigh that draws the eye... Maybe if they had some bits of bling to cover that, in the same way they have different clothing and decorations on other parts of the body, the similarities would be dulled.
It's that massive, bare expanse of thigh that draws the eye... Maybe if they had some bits of bling to cover that, in the same way they have different clothing and decorations on other parts of the body, the similarities would be dulled.
Pretty interesting article up about how they attempt balance in AoS.
Personal opinion : While AoS3 went a bit too far in complexity, its in a great spot with a few outliers at the extremes. Though the slower release schedule this year kind of made the game lose a bit of steam.
Full article so folks can copy/paste any points they want to emphasize:
At the bottom end, Kruleboyz and Gloomspite Gitz both continue to struggle, and have suffered at the hands of Bounty Hunters. Both factions should expect significant boosts in the next Battlescroll.
Nice!
Also, seems like Belakor and Blightlords are going to receive some "attention".
Spoiler:
Welcome to our new Age of Sigmar Metawatch series, in which the Warhammer Age of Sigmar design team shares insights and analysis on the current state of competitive play.
Here on the Warhammer Age of Sigmar team, we’re huge fans of Matched Play. Each Monday, various team members will arrive at the studio ready to share their tales of conquest (or defeat!) from the weekend tournaments they attended, before we all examine the updated data from events around the world. It is fascinating watching factions rise and fall with shifts in the meta, as players learn how best to wield their favourite faction, discover combos, and build counters to new threats.
One of our most important tenets is Mastery Through Defeat. Players should always feel like they can learn and improve from each of their games, and should come away with new strategies, adjustments to their army roster or tactical manoeuvres that could have turned the tide of battle in their favour. This is why game balance is so important to us, as in an asymmetric game like this, any perception of inherent advantage for one side can interfere with your ability to learn and grow from the experience.
In this article we’ll touch on the following:
How we gather data to inform our design decisions
The core terminology that we’ll refer to in this series
Our current balance goals for the game
Snapshot the current faction standings to see where we stand relative to those goals.
The Data
Our analytics pipeline currently brings in all data from official Games Workshop events that are run around the world, as well as all the Warhammer Age of Sigmar games recorded in two popular community-run events tools – Best Coast Pairings and Tabletop.to. We have more than 35,000 individual games recorded in our database (captured from more than 1,700 events), and more than 4,000 games and 200 events are added every month.
We capture results, use of factions and subfactions, and we fully parse any available army rosters. This lets us see how often a particular warscroll or enhancement is used at events, and how often players who use that warscroll or enhancement go on to win their game.
It is important to note that this data is imperfect, as we are relying on community-generated data, while certain events track or present data in unusual ways. Fortunately, given the low rate of errors relative to the size of the broader dataset, these generally have a minimal impact on the broader trends.
Key Terminology
When we’re discussing game balance, things tend to boil down into two main categories. External balance measures the relative performance of one faction against others – an army is well balanced externally if it is on a similar power level as the majority of other factions.
Internal balance measures the relative performance of options within a faction. We measure this across several axes – warscrolls, enhancements, core battalions, grand strategies, and battle tactics.
There are a number of metrics we monitor for both internal and external balance, but the most common ones are Win Rate and Inclusion Rate.
Win rate is one of the key metrics for both internal and external balance. Our win rate calculation is simple – the percentage of games that result in a win. So for instance if a particular army played 10 games and won six, it would have a 60% win rate. We don’t include draws in our calculations, as a balanced result (e.g. a mirror match) results in a win rate lower than 50%.*
Inclusion rate is the percentage of army rosters which include a particular warscroll or enhancement. For instance if every Legion of the First Prince army includes Be’lakor, that warscroll has a 100% inclusion rate within that subfaction.
Finally, Margin of error is a statistic expressing the amount of random sampling error in the results of our dataset. In simplest terms, the more we split up a particular data set, the noisier and less reliable the data will get.** We focus on a 60-day rolling average, which provides enough data to reduce our margin of error to <5% across all factions. This is still a significant margin – it is entirely possible that a handful of skilled generals perform particularly well at an event, nudging the average win rate for a faction up a couple of percentage points. This makes it especially important not to panic or overreact, but rather to be patient, monitor the situation and consult players and organisers to validate trends.
Our goals
Now that we’ve introduced the framework, we can discuss our current goals for improving balance on Age of Sigmar.
1. External balance: The average win rate for each faction should be between 45-55% – if every faction has a 50% win rate, a 5% margin of error produces results in this range. We monitor external balance at various levels, by battletome (i.e. Orruk Warclans), army type (i.e. Kruleboyz) or subfaction (i.e. Grinnin’ Blades).
2. Internal balance: We have different internal usage targets set per faction, but in general we want 60% of warscrolls to be used in more than 5% of competitive lists, along with 50% of faction enhancements.
3. Universal options: Universal warscrolls (such as endless spells) and universal enhancements (such as Arcane Tome) should be used in less than 10% of army rosters. These are useful tools, and help level the playing field, but we want a stronger focus on what makes each faction special and unique.
This list comes in priority order. It’s dangerous to try to tune too much at once, which has unintended consequences and can make it difficult to isolate which change contributed most to a shift in balance. Our most recent Battlescroll focused purely on trying to improve external balance. It made a marked improvement, and 83% of our battletomes currently sit within the target 45-55% bracket. As we work on the outliers and external balance improves, we will be able to move onto improving internal balance, and then to universal warscrolls and enhancements.
These goals are not final – once achieved, we set more ambitious targets for ourselves.
Current standings
Here is our current snapshot of external balance, based on 4,552 games played at 446 events held between the 27th of July and the 25th of September 2022.
Beasts of Chaos have continued to climb in the rankings thanks to a major power boost from their White Dwarf Battletome Update. As a faction that had been at the very bottom of the standings for much of this edition, they had a long way to climb, but the strength of the Herdstone combined with a handful of particularly efficient warscrolls have pushed them too far above our target bracket.
Similarly, certain dominant warscrolls (Pusgoyle Blightlords) and subfactions (Drowned Men) have pushed Maggotkin of Nurgle over the top. Sons of Behemat are a different story; while the Krondspine Incarnate has increased in popularity, the biggest factor appears to be a narrower spectrum of results. While they have a lower percentage of podium finishes relative to their win rate, they also have a much lower percentage of events where they win fewer than two of their games played, resulting in a net boost to their overall win rate.
At the bottom end, Kruleboyz and Gloomspite Gitz both continue to struggle, and have suffered at the hands of Bounty Hunters. Both factions should expect significant boosts in the next Battlescroll.
Where next for Metawatch?
We’ll use these articles to zoom in on the competitive meta for Age of Sigmar, touching upon internal balance, external balance between subfactions, and universal enhancements and core battalions.
We’re planning on supplementing this series with a new Metawatch podcast, which will allow us to delve deeper into these topics. We’re already planning an episode to your questions, so please email in any queries you’d like answered to aosfaq@gwplc.com. Topics can include specific data you’re curious about (“which faction is most likely to field a Krondspine Incarnate?”), or questions about our process (“how do we handle team or doubles events?”).
Game balance is an iterative process, and we are constantly working to improve our tools and methodologies. We feel like we’re going in the right direction, but recognise we still have a ways to go. The Warhammer Age of Sigmar team would like to extend a huge thank-you to everyone who has contributed to running or playing in events, or who has submitted feedback. We’re excited to hear what you all think of our next Battlescroll (coming soon!) and even more excited to measure the impact that it has!
* If a faction plays 10 games, wins four, loses four and draws two, it will only have a win rate of 40%.
** Imagine you roll a D6 three times and happen to roll 1,1, and 2. This results in an average value of ~1.3. If you rolled that same dice 1,000 times, you would get much closer to the true average value of 3.5.
I am pleased to see these articles making increased use of terms the community has used for ages; internal/external balance, etc. It feels like they are really making a genuine effort to not just improve balance, but get better at the process.
Though it also leaves some hints at the old problem of seeing the what but not the why; blightlords weren't a problem until bounty hunters became a thing and doubled their damage output against a huge swathe of units. If bounty hunters only allowed Gvets to be put in it this would never have been an issue.
Blight Lords were a problem before Bounty Hunters, for sure. They were a silent menace in the tournament scene. While people were complaining about Stormdrake lists, Blightlord lists coasted on by at the top of the game.
tneva82 wrote: 11 battletomes in a year is slow? Christ.
Guess gw needs to fasten up. 2 books/month. Of course that requires then new edition a year...
As is combined with wd all but gits are aos3 updated to some level with about half books. 40k is close to 9e end and isn't done yet...
Compared to 40kaos is superfast.
It's slow in terms of general, interesting releases. The majority has been a book and hero and that's it. There's been some interesting stuff in terms of the Krondspine, a touch of Sylvaneth etc, but compared to 40K, it's been very small in terms of actual army releases. But it's a 40K year, so next year it should be AoS as the cycle continues.
Rihgu wrote: Blight Lords were a problem before Bounty Hunters, for sure. They were a silent menace in the tournament scene. While people were complaining about Stormdrake lists, Blightlord lists coasted on by at the top of the game.
Hm, that wasn't what I saw. Do you have some data for reference? My knowledge could just be incomplete.
I don't think I can direct link to a page of this but The Honest Wargamer's Stats, page 5, selected for Maggotkin.
It shows winrate over time, and doesn't show a discernible boost post-bounty hunters.
You can then go to page 20 and look at lists that went 5-0, and while you can't specifically filter on time, you can see a number of lists. Specifically, April 22 (immediately before the new season dropped) has a number of 5-0 lists with contain quite a bit of Blightlords
Slight flaw (maybe?) in the data is that it is exclusively concerned with 5 round events. And I think an event needs a certain number of players in addition to being a 5 round event to be tracked here?
I have less empirical data myself, having personally followed a number of events through tabletop.to and best coast pairings including smaller events and remember (for as much as my memory is worth) a large number of blight lord-centric lists placing, if not #1, in the top 3 consistently.
And probably the LEAST empirical data I have is just being involved in the twitter community, and some prominent competitive players referencing the need for Blight Lords to be looked at in response to one of the rounds of Stormdrake nerfing.
Of the 13 5-0 lists recorded, 7 of them have more than 1 unit of Pusgoyles.
Since the release of the Maggotkin battletome to the 2022-2023 GHB, 37% of lists were Drowned Men and had a 61% win rate, which while not conclusive due to lack of data on specific lists, Drowned Men lists are usually(tm) based around Pusgoyle Blightlords.
They were definitely the Nurgle go-to, at least in the late GHB2021 season.
But, you're right, they are stronger now, or at least perceived to be, maintaining the same win rate but with 58% of recorded lists being Drowned Men (and 76% of those lists having a Bounty Hunters battalion, wowee!).
We'll see what the balance scroll (next week?!) does for them.
3 Mancrushers for the price of 2 and a half is exactly what I expected.
The real question is, does the generic Mega Gargant remain on sale or are we henceforth paying the 15% markup for the Brodd sprue whether we want to or not?
lord_blackfang wrote: 3 Mancrushers for the price of 2 and a half is exactly what I expected.
The real question is, does the generic Mega Gargant remain on sale or are we henceforth paying the 15% markup for the Brodd sprue whether we want to or not?
Considering it's been out of stock everywhere, i doubt it. Besides, it's not hard to resell the extras. I've sold all the extra bits £30 a time.
lord_blackfang wrote: 3 Mancrushers for the price of 2 and a half is exactly what I expected.
The real question is, does the generic Mega Gargant remain on sale or are we henceforth paying the 15% markup for the Brodd sprue whether we want to or not?
Seeing box got withdrawn by gw i expect it to follow knight pattern. 1 unified kit. If you need old version and aren't fan of magnetizating these time to buy now.
A point of interest about the Chaos Knight Musician: apart from musician related bits it's identical to one of the Easy-to-build models from Start Collecting! Slaves to Darkness. Instead of being a full new kit the command options are more likely to be an add-on sprue to existing models.
tneva82 wrote: The 3 mancrusher is nice one. 2/box super inconvenient for gargant players. Now i can get 3 without wasting 4th...unless new is 3 for price of 4
And lrl nice timing. It was this week or never for getting them to gaming day with friend this month.
You buyed three to get two mobs. I don't really see the problem.
I just realised that one of the skeletons from the underworlds warband is pretty huge and mounted on 40mm base. Maybe we will see new unit of elite bodyguards fielded in units of 3-5 released alongside new graveguard? That would make a full deathrattle army a bit more interesting.
I'm glad they have more diverse skeleton sizes, it reflects the living of the setting much better. Though it does still irk me that the skeletons bear equipment the living never seem to have had...
Think of it this way, weapons get salvaged from battlefields, all that would be left would be the junk and the stuff that nobody wanted (and even that would be scavenged eventually)
so undead with weapons will have the stuff the locals that won battle that first killed them didn't grab on the first pass, the swords that were the wrong shape, spears that were the wrong length etc for the local fighting style
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm glad they have more diverse skeleton sizes, it reflects the living of the setting much better. Though it does still irk me that the skeletons bear equipment the living never seem to have had...
The skeletons all had mediocre gear and died. The living are much better equipped
It's not the STATE of the gear, it's being completely different in style and construction. There is no evidence anywhere of living cultures using equipment resembling that of the skeletons and considering they aren't THAT old...
It is just a minor fluff quibble ultimately, but I'd like to see human spear + shield again, and human heavy armor + shield. But I suppose we'd all like to see more humans than just Empire.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm glad they have more diverse skeleton sizes, it reflects the living of the setting much better. Though it does still irk me that the skeletons bear equipment the living never seem to have had...
The skeletons all had mediocre gear and died. The living are much better equipped
Bat wings sign of mediocre gear?-)
You could say the moment somebody wears bat winged helmet you know he's future skeleton to be
NinthMusketeer wrote: It's not the STATE of the gear, it's being completely different in style and construction. There is no evidence anywhere of living cultures using equipment resembling that of the skeletons and considering they aren't THAT old...
It is just a minor fluff quibble ultimately, but I'd like to see human spear + shield again, and human heavy armor + shield. But I suppose we'd all like to see more humans than just Empire.
They're all ancient, long-dead warriors from cultures that no longer exist amng the living. Zombies are the fresh ones that should wield contemporary weapons.
Oh it isn't really worth a debate, the original comment was partly in humor anyway. Poking fun at both my own nitpicking and the practical nature of GW not having unlimited resources.
back in the old World, it was simply that the Carsteins always had those symbols and the Vampires just kept them as they overtook the family
hence all the dead had the gear that made Vampires from Sylvania look like they looked
(while the standard raised dead hat no symbols or gear at all)
I liked the line in End Times that with Grave Guard equivalents their equipment was actually reshaped by the necromantic energies running through them--being that they have considerably more investment than fodder units.
So looks like lumineth had lots of feel bad rules(like flying foxes unkillable for melee armies and tagging 1" reach units into melee safe from attacks) removed while lots of previously weak units gettting buffed. I like the sound of that.
Gargant book also makes them less "i auto control objective" though pity mancrushers still seem weak.
I'll just put it out there, but since it appears that the little imp that rides on King Brodd's shoulder horn is a separate piece and not attached, if anyone doesn't end up using it, let me know and I'll buy it.
The King Brodd artwork in latest Warhammer Community article is pretty awesome, as is the lore about how not every Destruction faction is a fan of Kragnos.
Archaon got pretty sick buffs. 5+ ward only now but works vs both normal and mw's. With more wounds it's almost as tough vs mortals as before and takes 18 non-mortal damage more to one shot him than before...
No rally or inspire within 12" of him(not even wholly within). And points stayed same.
Dark prophecy went from sub faction to his warscroll for once per game ability that opponent gets to see but the new host of archaon is neat giving 4+ rallies for knights and varanguard...
Knights 50% damage boost for lances in charge, outside charge got same extra attack and -1 rend compared to before. 230 pts though. They and warriors 3+ save.
Less aura based buffs than before. Marks just give bonuses.
Overread wrote: Considering GW doesn't really do early reviews like that I wonder if its just another case of someone breaching their NDA early
It seems that it was a mistake by gw. The person who got the box isn't a reviewer and didn't sign an NDA.
That's a pretty major mistake to make considering the box isn't supposed to be on sale till, what, christmas?! Not surprised GW is stocking up of course, but kinda surprised it slipped out!
Overread wrote: Considering GW doesn't really do early reviews like that I wonder if its just another case of someone breaching their NDA early
Nah. Mistaken box delivery most likely. Isn't even first time somebody gets something mistakenly. Ordered X, got Y instead where Y is yet to be released stuff...
We've seen at least two instances in recent history, someone got the Blood Bowl yeti months early, spoiling Norse as the next faction. And they accidentally had a crate of Necromunda Outcasts on sale early at a con.
Underguts extra rend to leadbelchers and cannons.
Leadbelcher stationary=2d3 shots. Might be increased range since they got stationary shots turn 1 going first.
Cannon big shot 2 attacks, 4+, 2+, -2, d3+3 damage. Scatter lots of dice, damage 2, rest wasn't clear(they just showed dice rolling).
Thundermace on tyrant identical to old(this is bit sad. Tyrant isn't THAT scary in combat. Slight buff to output would feel appropriate)
After combat over each enemy within 1" of gutbellies d3 mw on 4+.
Former bloodgullet healing artefact now generic artefact.
Butcher healing ability same as before, warscroll spell same as before.
Look out gnoblar -1 to wound for missile weapons.
There's way to get 2 big names for tyrant. One is 3+ save as before, one is 5+ ward.
+2" movement out of combat, +2 bravery in combat as before.
Ogor charge is now mw on 5+ if you have 3+ models. 4+ if you are monster. Otherwise as before.
So are Jade Obelisk supposed to be chaos? It sounds like they made a deal with something not exactly chaos-y, though then again the monster looks tzeentchy enough.
cole1114 wrote: So are Jade Obelisk supposed to be chaos? It sounds like they made a deal with something not exactly chaos-y, though then again the monster looks tzeentchy enough.
Tzeentch icon on the obelisk, I'm fairly certain. Was from a rumor Engine pic awhile back.
cole1114 wrote: So are Jade Obelisk supposed to be chaos? It sounds like they made a deal with something not exactly chaos-y, though then again the monster looks tzeentchy enough.
Tzeentch icon on the obelisk, I'm fairly certain. Was from a rumor Engine pic awhile back.
Ah, well, there you go lol. Interested in seeing their StD rules then...
cole1114 wrote: So are Jade Obelisk supposed to be chaos? It sounds like they made a deal with something not exactly chaos-y, though then again the monster looks tzeentchy enough.
Most of the gods that the warcry warbands pray too sound "not quite chaos like".
It's intentional, they are peoples, be they tribes, loaners or whole cities and nations, who worship old-gods who aren't Sigmar nor the Great 4 Chaos Gods. However the gods they pray too aren't real and what happens is Greater Demons from one of the Four Chaos Gods, sneak their way in and pretend to be those different deities. That's why some of the warbands can thematically and visually appear similar to two or more of the gods, because a different Chaos Demon will prey on different elements of the belief.
This also means that two different groups of the same faction could have a different focus as each one is praying to a different Chaos God through a Greater Demon.
It's part of showing how the Mortal Realms can be worshipping loads of different gods and how Chaos has become accepted without people realising it.
cole1114 wrote: So are Jade Obelisk supposed to be chaos? It sounds like they made a deal with something not exactly chaos-y, though then again the monster looks tzeentchy enough.
Tzeentch icon on the obelisk, I'm fairly certain. Was from a rumor Engine pic awhile back.
Ah, well, there you go lol. Interested in seeing their StD rules then...
Like Rotmire Creed had Maggotkin rules, Jade Obelisk will most likely have Arcanite rules, rather than StD.
cole1114 wrote: So are Jade Obelisk supposed to be chaos? It sounds like they made a deal with something not exactly chaos-y, though then again the monster looks tzeentchy enough.
Tzeentch icon on the obelisk, I'm fairly certain. Was from a rumor Engine pic awhile back.
And on his loin cloth. Plus they have bird skull icons, which are Tzeentchy. And their pet has wings that look like they’re from a screamer
cole1114 wrote: So are Jade Obelisk supposed to be chaos? It sounds like they made a deal with something not exactly chaos-y, though then again the monster looks tzeentchy enough.
Tzeentch icon on the obelisk, I'm fairly certain. Was from a rumor Engine pic awhile back.
And on his loin cloth. Plus they have bird skull icons, which are Tzeentchy. And their pet has wings that look like they’re from a screamer
It’s explicitly said that they’re Tzeentch in the article title, as mentioned above.
Rolsheen wrote: The skink swinging his/her balls in the air, is that some sort of skin flap under the chin?
could be a 'dewlap' which is a feature some male lizards use to attract mates. Which would make me laugh that he's swinging his balls around if it is the case
Stormcast have fought Cities of Sigmar before. You get a bunch of Chaos infections in a region, a few slightly unhinged Stormcast and suddenly they decide the best thing to do is purge the population and the population do not like that.
Heck it would be a neat way to present that lore to the bulk of the fanbase in a very upfront manner to show that the Stormcast are not the pure saviours many would hope for
100% fake. Umbraneth is a name that the community invented. The new DoK book has the correct name but I forget what it is. If that's not correct anything else is at best a lucky guess.
Personally I'm expect Gloomspite, Flesh water courts and Seraphon to make an appearance early next year.
100% fake. Umbraneth is a name that the community invented. The new DoK book has the correct name but I forget what it is. If that's not correct anything else is at best a lucky guess.
Personally I'm expect Gloomspite, Flesh water courts and Seraphon to make an appearance early next year.
Not saying it's not fake but Umbraneth does appear pretty legit, considering WarCom also use the term.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FYI, this particular WarCom article has since been edited so who knows. Time will tell.
100% fake. Umbraneth is a name that the community invented. The new DoK book has the correct name but I forget what it is. If that's not correct anything else is at best a lucky guess.
Personally I'm expect Gloomspite, Flesh water courts and Seraphon to make an appearance early next year.
Not saying it's not fake but Umbraneth does appear pretty legit, considering WarCom also use the term.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FYI, this particular WarCom article has since been edited so who knows. Time will tell.
Yeah this is where it comes from. The Warhammer community article wasn't edited; this picture was. It's a well known fake.
Overread wrote: Stormcast have fought Cities of Sigmar before. You get a bunch of Chaos infections in a region, a few slightly unhinged Stormcast and suddenly they decide the best thing to do is purge the population and the population do not like that.
Heck it would be a neat way to present that lore to the bulk of the fanbase in a very upfront manner to show that the Stormcast are not the pure saviours many would hope for
Eh, despite of the few grimderp elements Sigmarines got in 2nd ed they're still heroic champions of Sigmar. Remember that Cities of Sigmar isn't Cities of Sigmar anymore but gets rebranded to Dawnbringer Crusades. Like Sigmarines I doubt that Dawnbringer Crusades will be presented as anything but devout followers of Sigmar, at least on the surface.
It would be very uncharacteristic to have something as prominent as the starter box feature what looks like good guys fighting other good guys from the same faction. That's the kind of narrative you might get in a campaign supplement, not in an edition starter. It'll be two visually distinct factions that can be divided into good guys and bad guys by just looking at them. It's why we have yet to get a starter set of Marines versus Eldar. It takes lore knowledge to see why that's not an issue. That's not something GW wants for its starter sets.
100% fake. Umbraneth is a name that the community invented. The new DoK book has the correct name but I forget what it is. If that's not correct anything else is at best a lucky guess.
Personally I'm expect Gloomspite, Flesh water courts and Seraphon to make an appearance early next year.
Not saying it's not fake but Umbraneth does appear pretty legit, considering WarCom also use the term.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FYI, this particular WarCom article has since been edited so who knows. Time will tell.
Yeah this is where it comes from. The Warhammer community article wasn't edited; this picture was. It's a well known fake.
Geifer wrote: Like Sigmarines I doubt that Dawnbringer Crusades will be presented as anything but devout followers of Sigmar, at least on the surface.
We already know that every Dawnbringer Crusade is partially corrupted by the Changeling.
Meaningfully?
Sigmar's personal architect who designed the Dawnbringer cities is the Changeling in disguise. Tzeentch's plans are designed into the very layout of the cities according to the Disciples battle tome.
That sounds like slow corruption over the long term, or the foundation of an eventual invasion plan. Not something that would overtly affect the loyalty of the people in question on a massive level at the time the army is released.
No, but if Sigmar suddenly found out, he'd definitely send the Stormcast to deter the foundations of these cities rather than help them. Who ever said that the Dawnbringers were automatically the villains in this scenario?
Platuan4th wrote: No, but if Sigmar suddenly found out, he'd definitely send the Stormcast to deter the foundations of these cities rather than help them. Who ever said that the Dawnbringers were automatically the villains in this scenario?
Well seeing gw has written stormcast as good guys...gw.
Platuan4th wrote: No, but if Sigmar suddenly found out, he'd definitely send the Stormcast to deter the foundations of these cities rather than help them. Who ever said that the Dawnbringers were automatically the villains in this scenario?
No one?
Overread thinks it's possible that Sigmarines and Dawnbringer Crusades could be in the same starter set as opposing forces, given Sigmarines have some grimderp fluff to justify it. I argued that the appearance of both armies suggests they're good guys to new customers without a clue of the background and that's not something GW wants for its starter sets.
There's no argument for Dawnbringers as villains. I'd argue that's the perquisite for them to oppose Sigmarines because GW sure isn't going to let Sigmarines play the bad guys so overtly, if it wasn't for the fact that I don't think it will even come to the point of a fluff justification for the match up because GW isn't going to have two armies with Sigmar stamped all over their equipment fight each other. Not as part of a starter set that's supposed to draw in new people and instead just confuses them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Putting Sigmarines vs Dawnbringer Crusades in a starter box would be like pitting Black Templars vs Imperial Guard in a 40k starterbox.
Ie; far too good a deal for GW to ever consider it
Kruelboyz have been under performing in every metawatch that GW has released the info for.
Perhaps rather than tweaking the points each time and a single rules change and finding they are worse each time (40% win rate is far and away the lowest I recall) they go back and rebuild them from the ground up with all battlescrolls improved and then whatever they think those scrolls are worth, drop the cost by 10%.
This article just proves (yet again) how stupid conspiracy crowd spouting 4chan grade drivel about 'GW making new armies OP' is. What do we see at the absolute bottom? Oh yes, Kruleboyz and Ossiarchs, two of the newest AoS armies. Directly above them, still bottom of the barrel? Vampires and Stormcast, latest two big shiny range updates. Hedonites of Slaanesh and Gloomspite complete the trash pile and also are big recent range updates. Yndrasta, face of new edition, is apparently so bad even this cowardly 'balance' team gave her massive -40 pts drop. Bravo
I wish people stopped confusing incompetence and buffing pet armies of X writer (the two often being really correlated) with any sort of organized GW strategy, if even Primaris don't receive any sort of rule push (quite the opposite, in fact) then any claims about GW doing this on purpose are just nonsense...
Well Ossiarchs were broken powerful when they first launched with one of their subgroups giving a +1 to every units save in an army that already featured a good many +3 or similar saves. That got changed, but yeah at launch they were super powerful.
Same for Slaanesh when they got their first AoS battletome and the best way to run them was all keepers. You took several keepers, a few battleline-tax min unit deamonettes and you just went to down with the keepers to generate more summoning power to - yep - call more keepers to the field.
Both armies might not be the powerhouse now, but their first iterations in AoS with a formal battltome were.
Irbis wrote: This article just proves (yet again) how stupid conspiracy crowd spouting 4chan grade drivel about 'GW making new armies OP' is. What do we see at the absolute bottom? Oh yes, Kruleboyz and Ossiarchs, two of the newest AoS armies. Directly above them, still bottom of the barrel? Vampires and Stormcast, latest two big shiny range updates. Hedonites of Slaanesh and Gloomspite complete the trash pile and also are big recent range updates. Yndrasta, face of new edition, is apparently so bad even this cowardly 'balance' team gave her massive -40 pts drop. Bravo
I wish people stopped confusing incompetence and buffing pet armies of X writer (the two often being really correlated) with any sort of organized GW strategy, if even Primaris don't receive any sort of rule push (quite the opposite, in fact) then any claims about GW doing this on purpose are just nonsense...
Funny thing is...Stuff you mention HAVE BEEN dominating. It's just that there's this thing called "power creep". Heard the term?
OBR for example were marching from tournament win to tournament win and when you had 4 keeper of secret who on death gave you ANOTHER keeper of secret slaanesh was dominating as well. Stormcast did bloody well until got series of nerfs. Kruleboyz did pretty well as well at the start until power creep hit in. Not OBR/Slaanesh well but not bottom of barrel.
But yeah. Let's just look NOW and pretend it's ALWAYS been like that. Sure Irbis "quality" logic. New army books obviously can't affect power levels and obviously series of nerfs to army can't have affect to power level of the army. Oh no. Nerfs have zero impact. Obviously. That makes sense right?
I'm just happy that the Wight King (and the one on Steed) got point drops, alongside Neferata and the Terrorgheist.
I like all of those units but they're pretty meh, along with Neferata's Legion of Blood, so now that they have a points drop maybe I can fit in an extra unit to make it spicier.
Truth is armies with new Battletomes have a certain chance to be broken.
As new factions also get new Battletomes they have a higher chance to be broken.
As well as there seems to be a stronger interest by GW to keep new unis "not bad".
(Sometimes they overdo it. Sometimes we get Slaangors)
But then the probably most consistent top contenders of the last years are Tzeentch and seraphon, who got no relevant model releases ( lord kroak and...?)
I mean look at beasts of chaos!
A contender for "most forgotten faction still in the game" in the 60+ range... And a Powerhouse unit that is still finecast xD
(And that unit has not had a profile change since the beginning of AoS2.0).
There are just a lot of moving parts in the rules,
people online just love to pretend they knew it all .. post factum.
tldr: i like the direction they take. Would like for there to be less (broken) rules in the game to beginn with but whatever.
Also points changes - where are your 40k gods now!
That's a lot of stuff at once! For some reason I thought there would be another week or two before the chaos box.
Rather like the Ogre Vanguard. Nothing flashy, but the newish tyrant with a solid army backbone is pretty decent.
WarCom wrote:* Please note, this edition of the Slaves to Darkness battletome has a minor print error in English language versions only. There will be a small errata available next week alongside the pre-order.
Lovely. Good to know the book is even more flawed than usual, I guess?
JSG wrote: Another nail in the coffin of plastic maneaters I guess.
Yup. I don't understand why they were pulled from the store if they didn't have plans to do anything with them.
If I was building a new gutbusters army that Vanguard box is pretty solid even without Ironguts. I'm little concerned about the mournfang though; since the BCR box is now OOP and the regular mournfang box seems to be discontinued, will this be the only way to get them? And only 2 per box?
With only one new model/warscroll and a set of dice, this Ogor release is very underwhelming. That tome better be gak-hot.
Range rotation. GW was pretty honest about that in front.
As for mournfang...Term rebox ring a bell? Why this happens every single time new book comes out? Old box goes OOP, people panic it's gone, it comes up in new AOS3 style box.
EVERY...SINGLE...TIME!
Why I even waste time saying this for about 12th time in past year anyway? Because cometh the next book and next rebox to AOS3 style box people panic again. "THE UNIT IS GONE FOR GOOD! PANIC PANIC PANIC!"
It's...just...a...rebox.
Do you know what other units have done same? Stuff like draconith riders. Orruk brutes. Hearthguard berserkers. Are they OOP?
tneva82 wrote: Range rotation. GW was pretty honest about that in front.
As for mournfang...Term rebox ring a bell? Why this happens every single time new book comes out? Old box goes OOP, people panic it's gone, it comes up in new AOS3 style box.
EVERY...SINGLE...TIME!
Why I even waste time saying this for about 12th time in past year anyway? Because cometh the next book and next rebox to AOS3 style box people panic again. "THE UNIT IS GONE FOR GOOD! PANIC PANIC PANIC!"
It's...just...a...rebox.
Do you know what other units have done same? Stuff like draconith riders. Orruk brutes. Hearthguard berserkers. Are they OOP?
150€ for a Codex (~40€), 1 DP (can be assumed 40-45€ I think?), 10 Chosen (will GW sell them in Boxes of 5 for 45€? Would match their pricing for elite units) and the cards, which are not the warscroll ones if I remember that correctly from the pic (another 20-30€). Oh and I forgott: The Myrmidions which will likely be another 40-45€
With a 20% retail discount I see 120€. One could argue that this is an okay deal, I am somehow not convinced yet.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: 150€ for a Codex (~40€), 1 DP (can be assumed 40-45€ I think?), 10 Chosen (will GW sell them in Boxes of 5 for 45€? Would match their pricing for elite units) and the cards, which are not the warscroll ones if I remember that correctly from the pic (another 20-30€). Oh and I forgott: The Myrmidions which will likely be another 40-45€
With a 20% retail discount I see 120€. One could argue that this is an okay deal, I am somehow not convinced yet.
Well don't forget the boxed set is likely sold through 3rd parties as well. So you can get that 20% retail discount on the boxed set itself.
Also the codex in these sets are normally the "deluxe" ones. Granted the only difference is the front cover design (this time it lacks a little box around the name) and the material and you get a bookmark ribbon - for about double the price. So its rarely if never been value for money; but it does increase the cost
Nice to see the army set releasing already. I reckon that makes solo releases this year a possibility, at least. Price for these things seems stable for now, too. At least in €.
Never before has GW's proprietary currency calculator seemed so broken.
GW accountant: *checks notes, looks up* Seems to work as intended, dear concerned customer. *turns around, high fives passing accountant*
At least GW's financial reports will be more interesting again. Will rising costs lower their profits? Will favorable (aka made up) exchange rates win out over that? It's a lot more exciting than waiting for GW to post the next record profit as they have been for a few years.
Geifer wrote: Nice to see the army set releasing already. I reckon that makes solo releases this year a possibility, at least. Price for these things seems stable for now, too. At least in €.
Never before has GW's proprietary currency calculator seemed so broken.
GW accountant: *checks notes, looks up* Seems to work as intended, dear concerned customer. *turns around, high fives passing accountant*
At least GW's financial reports will be more interesting again. Will rising costs lower their profits? Will favorable (aka made up) exchange rates win out over that? It's a lot more exciting than waiting for GW to post the next record profit as they have been for a few years.
Well, thats pretty much the expected price and pretty much the expected grumbling.
( Honestly, if you consider that box a bad deal you should get a new hobby, 'cause thats the price point we are at)
That said i am still not 100% sold on the new models.
Chosen look great but somehow not as over the top as expected.
DP looks great but i have an insane amount of converted ones (as well as every previous one).
And those myrmidions are just better looking Minotaurus, are they not?
Ah, who am i kiddding.
I own pretty much every chaos kit and
I am going to buy the kits sooner or later, anyway. Might as well get them now - with a reasonable discount.
For me this is easy box to get. Don't have chosens, have khorne DP but need tzeentch one and rest don't have either.
If I don't get this might just as well sell my StD as all other expansions are even more expensive Not sold on chosen rules for must win lists but for my style lists look fun.
His Master's Voice wrote:On a slightly unrelated note, does anyone know what the timeframe is for Underworld kits transitioning to AoS?
Hard to say really, especially as the Underworld sets are 100% AOS compatible from launch. The only difference is the AoS only sets come without cards, though with the timelags and price creep sometimes there isn't all that much gain in waiting to get a card free set.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Based on leaked rules or even other pics from the army book, does anyone know if the Chosen have any other armaments?
Are they all two-handed axes/hammers, or are there halberds and/or sword & board options in there?
From memory the chosen were mostly the two handed warriors whilst sword and shield was more of a warrior element. That said GW has been on a bit of "make them all the same" in AOS when it comes to weapons, so we might see a dip in weapon variety here and there
Hard to say really, especially as the Underworld sets are 100% AOS compatible from launch. The only difference is the AoS only sets come without cards, though with the timelags and price creep sometimes there isn't all that much gain in waiting to get a card free set.
It's less about saving money on the cards, and more just getting the models I want. I forgot to buy the Gutter Runners when they were available, and now that I'm making yet another Mordehim Skaven warband, I have to wait for them to show up in the AoS section.
Tiny bit disappointed by the Warriors, honestly. Haven't read the leaks, but I assume this means dual hand weapons are out? Halberds all held awkwardly because they can't go two-handed without losing the shields.
I understand it would make for a much more expensive kit, but it would have been nice to have the option for shields slung over the back to accommodate the extra hand needed to hold a second weapon, or the one halberd properly.
lord_blackfang wrote: Really liking the Ogor box. Makes the Sylvaneth one look sparse.
Well adding monsters does that...As is that sylvaneth box is pure gold for new sylvaneth players. 2 is EASILY worth it. 3-4 isn't even unreasonable if you want to play both kurnoth and treelord heavy armies.
Ogor book remains to be seen how worthwhile cannons and leadbelchers are and do gluttons really work but sylvaneth one is very good value. Pre-ogors considered sylvaneth one best one so far(contents got leaked months ago. Been waiting for that box since then though in the meanwhile kind of lost motivation for sylvaneth as it's so non-interactive army...)
Tim the Biovore wrote: Tiny bit disappointed by the Warriors, honestly. Haven't read the leaks, but I assume this means dual hand weapons are out? Halberds all held awkwardly because they can't go two-handed without losing the shields.
I understand it would make for a much more expensive kit, but it would have been nice to have the option for shields slung over the back to accommodate the extra hand needed to hold a second weapon, or the one halberd properly.
Khagra's ravagers at least have one model doing exactly that, and the lord on horse also seems to have multiple weapons on his body. Was hoping they'd go in that direction, with chaos warriors with multiple hand weapons AND shields.
Initially I thought it was Warriors with two-handed weapons but apparently it is Chosen with two-handed, which don't look radically different than Warriors. Not sure game wise what the difference is in AoS.
lord_blackfang wrote: Really liking the Ogor box. Makes the Sylvaneth one look sparse.
Well adding monsters does that...As is that sylvaneth box is pure gold for new sylvaneth players. 2 is EASILY worth it. 3-4 isn't even unreasonable if you want to play both kurnoth and treelord heavy armies.
Ogor book remains to be seen how worthwhile cannons and leadbelchers are and do gluttons really work but sylvaneth one is very good value. Pre-ogors considered sylvaneth one best one so far(contents got leaked months ago. Been waiting for that box since then though in the meanwhile kind of lost motivation for sylvaneth as it's so non-interactive army...)
I'm sure you are correct for the current meta. As I'm mostly skipping 3rd edition I tend to just look at financial value and how cool the contents look, or utility in other games. The Ogor box looks like you're actually getting an army so I think it's a more satisyfing purchase (and I kinda wanted everything in it except the lord to expand my KoW army, so a no brainer for me with the big discount)
Well if you expect to get big monster kit for 1/5 of infantry kit you will always be dissapointed...
Cash wise they are all about same value. Some bit more, some bit less but no drastic. Bigger effect comes in how multi-purchable it is and in that sylvaneth is gold as apart hero all kits build multiple things. You start losing value after about 6 of those...ogors? 6 is lot harder to justify
I hope we get a clear look at the alternative daemon prince build soon. The head looks better than the helmeted one or the one shown for the 40k version
GaroRobe wrote: I hope we get a clear look at the alternative daemon prince build soon. The head looks better than the helmeted one or the one shown for the 40k version
Really it depends on how many the studio has painted up. I wouldn't put it past them to only have two done - the AoS one and the 40k one - and they just painted the various extra heads to show them off as, IIRC, we haven't seen them actually attached to the rest of the body.
I wonder how much he's going to cost as well. Be'lakor levels, or Avatar?
GaroRobe wrote: I hope we get a clear look at the alternative daemon prince build soon. The head looks better than the helmeted one or the one shown for the 40k version
Really it depends on how many the studio has painted up. I wouldn't put it past them to only have two done - the AoS one and the 40k one - and they just painted the various extra heads to show them off as, IIRC, we haven't seen them actually attached to the rest of the body.
I wonder how much he's going to cost as well. Be'lakor levels, or Avatar?
Mind you with GW they tend to keep parts separate anyway...so the heads likely ARE separate as are arms etc and the pieces are then assembled for photoshot.
There's even cases of model missing parts in photos. especially 360 ones Or blu-tack visible.
There’s definitely not 4 whole DPs painted, the details of the paintjob are identical between them there. But you can kind of see them in context of the body there.
ImAGeek wrote: There’s definitely not 4 whole DPs painted, the details of the paintjob are identical between them there. But you can kind of see them in context of the body there.
Yay, that black void on the left side of those heads is pretty glaring.
Giving a greater daemon head to a Dp is jsut stupid. The only one that looks remotely good is the Slaanesh one. The BT and GUO look especially dumb, like a greater daemon has decided to dress up as a space marine. Probably gonna be the generic head for me, if I buy this.
JWBS wrote: Giving a greater daemon head to a Dp is jsut stupid. The only one that looks remotely good is the Slaanesh one. The BT and GUO look especially dumb, like a greater daemon has decided to dress up as a space marine. Probably gonna be the generic head for me, if I buy this.
The Tzeentch head isn't avian enough for my taste. Where are the feathers?!
Also, looking back at the leaks, it feels like Tzeentch got crapped on in this book. Easily the worst of the five marks.
ImAGeek wrote: There’s definitely not 4 whole DPs painted, the details of the paintjob are identical between them there. But you can kind of see them in context of the body there.
Yay, that black void on the left side of those heads is pretty glaring.
I didn't even notice that haha. They didn't bother with the left side at all. The right side of the backpack is tinted to match the DP's head, but they didn't do it to the other side.
ImAGeek wrote: There’s definitely not 4 whole DPs painted, the details of the paintjob are identical between them there. But you can kind of see them in context of the body there.
Yay, that black void on the left side of those heads is pretty glaring.
I didn't even notice that haha. They didn't both with the left side at all. The right side of the backpack is tinted to match the DP's head, but they didn't do it to the other side.
Black voids are a good way to hide stuff, your brain kind of naturally tunes that out. Why matte black flight stands are better than clear plastic ones.
AduroT wrote: Black voids are a good way to hide stuff, your brain kind of naturally tunes that out. Why matte black flight stands are better than clear plastic ones.
It's also a good trick when painting complex models where you can't get your brush into all the regions. You coat them black and your brain just goes "Oh its shadowing"
Here is my unboxing & review of the new Slaves to Darkness army set. Incl. high-res sprue pics, size comparison of the new Chaos Chosen, and a few observations about the new models & rules:
Chosen are quite large, but there are only five unique bodies. Daemon Prince is amazing though, so many options & many not shown on the promo pictures!
I'm kind of pleased that its a 60mm base - means my old metal Slaanesh Keeper can certainly still stand in for a Demon price alongside this great new kit!
I think it also helps reinforce that a prince isn't above a greater demon; that the greater demons are huge and powerful and on a whole different level to a simple prince (which isn't to say that princes are not powerful monsters in their own right of course)
Overread wrote: I'm kind of please that its a 60mm base - means my old metal Slaanesh Keeper can certainly still stand in for a Demon price alongside this great new kit!
Should mean he also won't dwarf the "current" Daemon Prince.
Overread wrote: I think it also helps reinforce that a prince isn't above a greater demon; that the greater demons are huge and powerful and on a whole different level to a simple prince (which isn't to say that princes are not powerful monsters in their own right of course)
That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of.
Well, with the Avatar in plastic and a great new DP in plastic, I can finally build my own Daemon Prince: Excommunicate Traitoris Horatio Lethus, a Khorne-dedicated former Ultramarine Captain who hates the Tau with endless fury and is forced to wield the Wailing Doom of the Avatar he killed prior to ascending to Daemonhood. The blade is fused to his hand, and he now searches for any means to free himself of the 'Ulthwe Blade', as it is known. He's put entire worlds to the torch in his search, but has yet to be successful (we've played many games centred around this guy!). And yeah, I've got two boxes of Skulls, which includes all the Tau skulls.
Seeing the Plague Monks in that Skaven Battleforce box makes me sad. Can't speak to their effectiveness in the new tome, its just that its an old, inefficient kit. So much wasted space on the sprues from what I remember. Stormvermin would've probably given the box a better look.
Also, seems like a missed opportunity to not have a Slaves to Darkness box set as well, to strike while the iron is hot on its new releases.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I'd have been very shocked if they did a Slaves one considering they're brand new. I'd take a bet that'll be one for next year.
True enough. Probably didn't want to steal any thunder from the new releases.
Welcome to the latest Dawnbringer Preview, the latest in our ongoing look at one of the game’s most anticipated factions – the Cities of Sigmar, who put the “mortal” in the Mortal Realms.
I guess I misunderstood something in earlier previews. I vaguely had the impression that the Dawnbringer Crusades were about founding new cities, but I thought it was a distinct force from the 'Cities of Sigmar' battletome. This seems to be conflating them as the same thing. Not so much a new faction as a replacement for old kits with a new faction name (or maybe not).
Warhammer Age of Sigmar is gripped in the feral claws of the Era of the Beast – and against this backdrop mortals are undertaking great journeys to reclaim territory and found settlements in the name of the God-King Sigmar. These are the Dawnbringer Crusades, huge logistical and military operations bringing civilisation to shattered lands.
Welcome to the latest Dawnbringer Preview, the latest in our ongoing look at one of the game’s most anticipated factions – the Cities of Sigmar, who put the “mortal” in the Mortal Realms.
You’ve had a glimpse of the accessories and details with which these crusaders adorn themselves, and some of the melee and black powder weapons wielded by the regular folk who make up the bulk of each expeditionary force.
Now we can reveal the shields and armour these people use to protect themselves in the harsh wilds beyond their walls. Seb Perbet, a senior designer at the Warhammer Studio, offered his insight into the decisions behind the designs.
“One of our main goals is to show the mindset and culture of the Cities of Sigmar in every item they’ve produced,” said Seb. “Whether it’s a breastplate, a shield, or even a bag or bottle, we want to show a certain fashion and level of craftsmanship rooted in their culture.”
While the realms are home to entire civilisations of aquatic aelves and sinister spectres, the Free Cities are a little more down-to-earth – and their equipment reflects that.
“The materials shown – such as wood, metal, cloth, and leather – are all chosen and rendered to make the Cities feel relatable compared to the other factions of the Mortal Realms,” Seb explains. “The overall silhouettes are simple, with many straight lines and robust proportions, showing the users are resolute, determined, and sturdy.”
“Within this austere silhouette, there are more ostentatious details, which tells us many of these people are proud and wealthy too. We’re carefully setting a level of wear and tear that communicates they’ve been through storms and battles – these soldiers are exhausted, but still standing.”
From my rather basic understanding:
The Dawnbringer Crusades are the "next step" in the Cities of Sigmar.
They're being founded in the cities and settlements previously established as part of the whole Season of War and the like, with the goal of expanding outwards into the Realms that were rather untouched by the initial push out of Azyr.
Oh I should think so. The cities being mixed race have been a thing since the beginning. And some of the more popular cities like the Phonecium and Greywater Fastness have heavy Aelven and Duardin presence.
Old-Four-Arms wrote: Possibly (hopefully) the Crusades include a sprinkling of good races (dwarves frex) with the same look.
I liked the initial stopgap of mixing old Empire, HE, DE and Dwarf ranges into one force. I hope they'll retain at least some racial visual distinctiveness for the Crusades.
Old-Four-Arms wrote: Possibly (hopefully) the Crusades include a sprinkling of good races (dwarves frex) with the same look.
I liked the initial stopgap of mixing old Empire, HE, DE and Dwarf ranges into one force. I hope they'll retain at least some racial visual distinctiveness for the Crusades.
It make sense for GW to do this since they already did this with Chaos slaves to darkness squads in Warcry. Where you have humans with bestmen, and even a chaos dwarf in the Iron guys squad. I can easily see a "crusader squad" being a mixed unit as well, have special/unique weapons per race, and you're good to go.
I'd love to see the racial advantages utilized in mixed units, but it would be hard to realize mechanically. A basic example would be firing lines of duardin in front, human second rank.
GW has already done that with the warcry units for Slaves to Darkness. Though mechanically its often slight differences - eg a model having more more attack or one more point of health or armour or such. But they have done it with those so they could do it with the Cities of Sigmar.
Another option would simply be a single visual design with slight variations for elf and dwarf and then united in a single army. Right now one thing that makes Cities of Sigmar look odd is you've got different armies with very different styles in the same force. However you also have several (esp dark elf) that are simply there in enough numbers that they can simply go as they are without teaming up.
On the other extreme you've a few bits of the high elves that just visually stand out all on their own.
Ofr course, units containing a mix of elves, dwarfs and humans (no halflings in the mortal realms, right?) will have a diminished variety of poses on the sprue, with fewer pieces being interchangeable between individuals.
Depends. An aelf and human body should be interchangable, the only real difference should be in the head. Dwarf yes. But what would be nice would be if you could get three unique torsos for a captain of the unit.
At the same time if the elf is just a humanoid body with a different head it kind of makes the elf less distinct. I'd expect to see the elf body different to the human.
Yes that means less modular parts in the kit, but it might mean a completed kit that looks far more dynamic or specialist.
Shakalooloo wrote: Ofr course, units containing a mix of elves, dwarfs and humans (no halflings in the mortal realms, right?) will have a diminished variety of poses on the sprue, with fewer pieces being interchangeable between individuals.
But GW is doing that more and more anyway, so I'd be happy enough getting something I want out of it.
Recent examples: I love the chaos legionnaires kit (apart from the price for 8 models) and the DKOK kit, but they're already at the bottom in terms of interchangeable bits and poses on the sprue. I don't see that changing for future kits, so a diverse 'mortal races' dawnbringer crusade seems fine.
Shakalooloo wrote: Ofr course, units containing a mix of elves, dwarfs and humans (no halflings in the mortal realms, right?) will have a diminished variety of poses on the sprue, with fewer pieces being interchangeable between individuals.
Bits being designed for specific bodies is standard for gw these days.
Interesting little Dawnbringer tidbit in the Ogor Battletome :
With Dawnbringer crusades pushing out from every major Simarite city, the Ogors who claim the wilds have a new foe - one that goes to war better equipped and in greater strength than any human force they’ve encountered in living memory.
Archaon is confirmed to be MTO in metal, not finecast? Does this mean that there's a chance other finecasted models that were originally metal may also get a MTO run?
Archaon is confirmed to be MTO in metal, not finecast? Does this mean that there's a chance other finecasted models that were originally metal may also get a MTO run?
Everything previewed is metal according to the article. May pick up an Archaon. Had one before and sold him when the prices sky rocketed, so i think i'll grab him back again.
GaroRobe wrote: Does this mean that there's a chance other finecasted models that were originally metal may also get a MTO run?
No examples immediately spring to mind, but I'm adamant this isn't the first time they've done a metal MTO for a miniature that was last retailed in resin.
Also, the mounted sorcerer does seem to have been a general release, you can find photos of the standard blister packaging online. If they were doing Games Day miniatures on MTO, then you'd think the Archaon on foot would be here too.
GaroRobe wrote: Does this mean that there's a chance other finecasted models that were originally metal may also get a MTO run?
No examples immediately spring to mind, but I'm adamant this isn't the first time they've done a metal MTO for a miniature that was last retailed in resin.
Also, the mounted sorcerer does seem to have been a general release, you can find photos of the standard blister packaging online. If they were doing Games Day miniatures on MTO, then you'd think the Archaon on foot would be here too.
They've done it multiple times for Middle-Earth mto's. General rule of thumb is they're cast in whatever the original material was.
Dang, I've got a finecast Archon I've never even put together so I don't really need this, but it's hard to resist. I suppose I could use the finecast as the base for a converted mounted lord since it'd be easier to cut up, as that was my original plan for it anyway but then it went OOP and I couldn't bring myself to do it. Glad to see it back anyway, even if just for a week.
Now if only they'd bring back the High Elf dragon.
I think the only one that hasn't really got a spot is the Mounted Chaos Sorcerer. Even if you go to death there isn't a mounted necromancer to stand in for. But its still a really awesome looking model.
Including Archaon and the mounted sorcerer lord. Who i'm 90% certain was a games day exclusive originally.
How much of a mark up do they put on made to order models in metal? I don't really have a baseline to even judge it from with regard to old scale/game mounted cavalry character models.
Metal prices have gone sharply up. I think the mounted sorcerer was 20 euros back then so it's probably 32 euros now. That Khorne Lord was sold as Exalted Deathbringer for 15 euros I think? But it was Finecast so I expect the metal model to be 23 euros. Others probably the same. I have a faint memory of Finecast Archaon being 40 euros, but that seems excessive. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if it's 50 euros now simply because it's a pretty big model for a man on a (daemon) horse.
I'm going in for 2 of the Archaons and Mounted Sorcerer. Maybe 3 Archaons, 2 for conversions and one to keep as is.
The 4 Chaos Champions don't really move me anymore, as their ranges have upgraded immensely since they came out. Great for collectors or folks that don't mind the scale difference and the gamers still playing with Oldhamer mini's.
Say, on my end the app still hasn't updated Sons or Lumineth to their new battletomes (I have unlocked the content via code) anyone else having this issue?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Say, on my end the app still hasn't updated Sons or Lumineth to their new battletomes (I have unlocked the content via code) anyone else having this issue?
Have you tried manually updating in the App Store? I've had to do that the past few releases for the same issue.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: I'm having a look at the StD Battletome. Was the new generic hero announced anywhere ? The one on foot with sword and board or two axes.
Does he do anything interesting, or is he just for killing?
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: I'm having a look at the StD Battletome. Was the new generic hero announced anywhere ? The one on foot with sword and board or two axes.
Does he do anything interesting, or is he just for killing?
Not really. He's even pretty bad for 100Pts.
Either 4 attack 3+3+ -1 2 and a save at 3+/5+ ward against mortals.
Or, 8 attack 4+4+ -1 2 for the axes.
6 wounds 4+ save normally and 5" mov and he can roll on the eye of the gods chart at the beginning of battle.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: I'm having a look at the StD Battletome. Was the new generic hero announced anywhere ? The one on foot with sword and board or two axes.
Does he do anything interesting, or is he just for killing?
Not really. He's even pretty bad for 100Pts.
Either 4 attack 3+3+ -1 2 and a save at 3+/5+ ward against mortals.
Or, 8 attack 4+4+ -1 2 for the axes.
6 wounds 4+ save normally and 5" mov and he can roll on the eye of the gods chart at the beginning of battle.
Also +1 Attack if within 3" of an enemy Hero or Monster.
Despite fixing the problem of a Disciples of Tzeentch army not being able field a Gaunt Summoner, they've now gone and fethed it up again by making it so a Disciples army cannot take a Mutalith - again, because a Tzeentch army can't take a unit with the Tzeentch keyword as a coalition unit.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: I'm having a look at the StD Battletome. Was the new generic hero announced anywhere ? The one on foot with sword and board or two axes.
Halloween preview with the warriors and lord. But yes, he's... meh, especially compared to the barely-more-expensive chaos lord on foot, who you also probably don't want to take. Several of the character choices feel redundant.
Voss wrote: Halloween preview with the warriors and lord. But yes, he's... meh, especially compared to the barely-more-expensive chaos lord on foot, who you also probably don't want to take. Several of the character choices feel redundant.
Makes me wish there was just one generic unit entry for some heroes and they got options, instead of a new entry for each variation.
Voss wrote: Halloween preview with the warriors and lord. But yes, he's... meh, especially compared to the barely-more-expensive chaos lord on foot, who you also probably don't want to take. Several of the character choices feel redundant.
Makes me wish there was just one generic unit entry for some heroes and they got options, instead of a new entry for each variation.
...Like how it used to be.
But then all the Space Marines players would start complaining about how many different Datasheets there are for Primaris Captains!
NinthMusketeer wrote: SCE could really use some consolidation, they aren't Marines-level bad but its getting there.
Alternative thought - other AoS armies need bulking out so everyone can catch up with the stormcast and spread the game out with more subgroupings, specialists and all.
I suspect one reason we don't see this already, but 40K is full of it, is that some armies have only a handful of units to their roster. It's hard to have loads of different groups when some armies are running around with tiny rosters. Heck most armies don't even have any artillery
Wow, metal Archaon on horse? Sign me up. I think this will be the first thing I ever buy direct from GW. May have to pick up a couple other direct only kits.
(And maybe a few ways to generate extra destiny dices.)
