As I travel around the country playing in tournaments and meeting new people, I've discovered an unsettling trend of people referring to Dakka in unpleasant terms, usually with reference to lack of literary ability, garbage posts, trying to filter through junk, and worst of all the repeating polls.
I've been a loyal Dakkaite for a couple of years now; even paying for DCM status to show my support for Dakka and its endeavors. My personal posting on Dakka has significantly dwindled in the last year, and I don't even go into sections of the forum (Army Lists, General Discussion) except for rare moments because of the effluence of garbage that has to be sorted through to find something worth reading. It didn't really hit home until yesterday, when I was at an RTT in a new store that I hadn't visited before, and got hit with another dose of, "No, I don't read Dakka...too much garbage there anymore, but instead I use XXXX forums, which are smaller and have more worthwhile content."
I got to thinking about it today as I was looking through the forums for something interesting to read....Dakka *is* full of garbage, isn't it?
What is the Best Space Marine Chapter?
Who would win in a fight? X Character vs. Y Character?
Beat this unit with this other unit!
Which is better, Fantasy or 40k?
Rank the Primarchs!
What's the most powerful unit in 40k?
What's the most powerful unit in XX Codex
Rank this codex vs. that codex.
Which Chaos God is best?
What 40k creature would you keep as a pet?
What's the best 40k novel?
Does X Army suck?
Rank the codexes by power!
Polls have played a large part in saturating and drowning intelligent thought from our forums. Just when one dies, someone starts an identical topic with the same question. I wonder how many dozens of threads have been created with the title "Beat this unit?" How many hundreds of thousands of posts have been made to nonsensically argue back and forth about the merits of things that have no practical application to our hobby?
The amount of valuable content - what brought me here in the first place has been diminished and swamped in a raging torrent of useless posts and pointless argument. I've largely stopped contributing content personally because I get overwhelmed with private messages asking me for personal help - most people aren't willing to dig through the refuse looking for something that will help them. "Dash, I heard you're the guy to ask about Orks....could you help me XYZ?" My story is the same story as many others who have taken either a passive role or no role in Dakka as the sum of its parts have been dragged kicking and screaming downhill into offal.
YOU can help.
1. Don't support the polls. They are evil and unholy and repetitive and ultimately lead nowhere - causing their unholy rebirth to continue to plague our forums.
2. Don't be a bystander. When someone creates a topic and posts an illiterate collection of words, ask them to be considerate of everyone else on the internet. Ask them to carefully consider their words and try expressing them in a manner others can understand.
3. Link, Bookmark, and paste repetitive threads! When someone creates a thread to discuss or question something already under discussion, or that has recently been discussed, link the old thread into the new with a note "OP, there is an identical thread here you can discuss this at" and then report the thread as a duplicate. It will get locked/removed - and that's one less piece of clutter!
4. Enforce Rule #1: A lot of threads spin out of control because of how people are treat each other and talking to each other in a thread. Don't wait for one party to become offended enough to report it, hit the report button and get it back on track early!
5. Send a PM to Legoburner/Yakface: Dakka has an offtopic board, and it has a "Dakka Poll" section....it needs a "Gaming Polls" section, or to rename Dakka Poll as a gaming poll section, and have this be the place for all of those "What's the best unit in 40k" arguments to go to. Just because a post has words doesn't mean it contains content, as I'm sure someone will show up to point out this thread for shortly.
Dakka has a large community, but it isn't so big that the little actions we individually take can't help keep Dakka a place that gamers want to visit.
Seriously though, Dash has a point. A lot of stupid threads come up. Some are legitimately humorous/a good read, but many are just a waste of bandwidth. I also agree that anybody who registers an account in a country where English is the primary language should be held accountable for the readability of their posts.
Having a place for humor would be nice, though I imagine moderating a subforum for that sort of thing would be a nightmare.
Been here a long time, and one thing is absolutely true:
Some topics will always be rehashed after a certain amount of time.
I think I have seen at least 20 threads on the topic of what music you listen to while gaming. This is without even slightly resorting to exaggeration. I am even willing to bet that there have been far more threads about that specific topic.
Once you have seen a specific topic arise that that you know has already been discussed, its natural to feel that the signal to noise ratio is out of whack.
Lets take this very topic we are currently reading right now.
Thats right. It too has been done before.
You raise valid points, but ultimately nothing will come of it.
I am not being cynical, I am going by over a decade of experience with this site and that simply is how it is.
New people will continue to come to the site wanting to discuss certain topics and people who have been on a forum for awhile who had participated in that very topic a month ago will feel annoyed.
Its not like newbs can search for a topic of discussion and participate in it. If they comment on it and its over two months old the thread will just get locked so why bother looking for old crap when you can start a new discussion?
Good luck with trying to get people to do the stuff on your list. I agree with you and find those topics dull and tired, but thats because we have been there and done that. Lots of kids on here havent yet and the topics are valid.
If someone doesn't like a poll they don't have to read it. I certainly don't.
According Alexa, Dakka's right in the running with(Warseer, BOLS) or burying completely(40konline, TauOnline) any other major GW Fansite I can think of. That list is by no means exhaustive. I'm also going to withhold my opinions on pots, kettles and their calling each other on their respective colors.
Part of the problem is that the attitude from the Off-Topic forum is seeping into the useful parts of the forum. The other part of the problem, noted by Polonius, is that the administration seems indifferent to promoting quality content.
So we get the same subject discussed thread after thread because continuing the previous thread where the topic has been beaten to death is necromancy and therefore to be abhorred. That's when certain moderators can't be relied upon to actively troll users...
Articles, well, I gave up on them with my article on Chaos Sorcerers because an illiterate chump kept on screwing it up with his inability to spell, or indeed write at all. Why bother when most of the articles are trash, and whatever you write will be trashed by the next teenager accessing Dakka Dakka without adult supervision?
Posting in You Make Da Call is a lost, for obvious reasons, and Tactics is basically spillage from Army Lists populated by a bunch of regulars with an axe to grind rather than any real interest in discussing actual tactics.
To be honest I've been doubting my own reasons for showing up and posting for a while now, it doesn't seem to do any good, and most of my favourite posters seem to have given up already. If it wasn't for the Swap Shop I think I would have gotten myself banned years ago.
Most forums get pretty repetitive after awhle.. on another forum years ago I swear EVERY day someone started a thread asking "Do you still overheat if you reroll the 1 to hit?"
my only main issue with dakka is that I wish it had a bigger WFB following as 40k hasnt really added much new to the game in awhile. I hate having to go to euro dominated boards for WFB stuff because europe uses wackass rules and bans everything competitive.. not the best place to read about tactics
Hey! Theres nothing wrong with my "what is the best 40k novel" poll. There are a lot of people who are interested in what other people think about the novels. It is a good way to get feedback on different books and to see which is worth reading and which is worth missing. I, and a lot of other people don't want to waste their money buying poor reads.
Noticed that Alpharius has been quoted in someone's sig. "DakkaDakka is NOT a democracy!"
To which my first thought was, if Dakka is not a democracy, how come there are so many fething polls?!
If you go to latest posts it tends to be dominated by OT threads. (Guilty of contributing your honour )
The same questions keep cropping up. Need a better search engine and people need to actually look before posting a question. And how many more, I am new Skaven/HE player what do I do now threads are there going to be
Back when I came on board, you didn't speak up unless you had something intelligent to say. That was because you got flamed like crazy for saying dumb gak.
Not for the thin skinned, but if you could take a little ribbing Dakka offered up the best tactics and list building advice on the net.
A lot of the best players still hang out in Dakka, but the quality of content has gone down, down, down. I still love it here, but I truly cringe at some of the unbelievable garbage that gets toted as sound tactical or list building advice in those sections. I don't even bother posting in those areas now because it's so frustrating.
Dakka is still great for tournament information, News and Rumors and WIP blogs. Those areas are top notch. As for being the best place to go to learn how to play the game well, not even remotely close to what it was.
Im pretty sure Just Dave would'nt be too happy to here his Thread was'nt appreiciated, personally If a thread is usefull or well written I.E. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311758.page then it is welcome, and if you are annoyed with repeating threads then you, as a DCM can block the thread and direct them to a previous thread.
Reecius wrote:We are becoming what we used to mock in Warseer.
Thats because self moderation is no longer tolerated. Posters are not allowed to call BS on another poster here. As you noted, say something worthwhile or GFTO.
Nowadays even moderators are trolls, so there you have it.
I would'nt call your Day in the Life of a pro 40k player thread valuable, but it was funny and a great read and for that reason it deserves to be on Dakka.
What was that about other sites being more literate than dakka?
A bit about Strength Through Pain over on BoLS (Credit to GrenAcid):
So I was talking with Phill for a while and this is what I know:
Mandreaks are shadow bit chaos thing that eats souls and glow green(you on cover)
New character former DE queen..and Vects wive....after he dump her, she started planning revange on him.
You know better than I do what it used to be like. If you were acting like a dumb ass, you got called on it. Now, any knucklehead can say what ever he or she likes, no matter how inane, and we can't say anything to help correct the situation.
The MODs are like ninjas too, they delete posts in stealth mode. Trying to encourage a healthy, friendly environment is one thing, but protecting the idiots at the expense of the site is only going to be detrimental in the long run. What made Dakka unique was the fact that you got the straight dope on playing well. No one tried to candy coat anything. You were expected to be an adult about giving and taking criticism. Now everyone's feelings are involved and the quality of the content has greatly suffered, IMO.
nickmund wrote:Hey! Theres nothing wrong with my "what is the best 40k novel" poll.
Actually, it's the only non-stickied thread with over 100 posts on the front page of 40k General Discussion so that should speak for itself. Judge your thread by the number of views and replies, not on someone's opinion of polls.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:What was that about other sites being more literate than dakka?
A bit about Strength Through Pain over on BoLS (Credit to GrenAcid):
So I was talking with Phill for a while and this is what I know:
Mandreaks are shadow bit chaos thing that eats souls and glow green(you on cover)
New character former DE queen..and Vects wive....after he dump her, she started planning revange on him.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:And how many more, I am new Skaven/HE player what do I do now threads are there going to be
I always thought that there should be army specific sub-forums in each game systems respective section, just for this reason. Sort of like how MMO's have class specific forums, so you can turn to a specific forum community for a question/advice for a particular subject, and ignore topics that mean nothing to your army, since they are already sorted for you.
But after thinking on it, that would make alot more forums that need modding, or those forums would not get enough modding which could exacerbate the problem of crap topics.
The OP does make a good point. I was a lurker for 2 years before I started posting and I can notice a difference, and I only use about 1/10th of the forums. Must be an even more profound change for those that have be around for a good while?
With the Dark Eldar going up for pre-order on the 5th, I'm sure we can expect some price whining threads to come. I know I don't have to read them(but I usually do for laughs, this hobby was always expensive), but the mere existence of them just increases the likelihood of good discussions being pushed into the oblivion beyond the first page.
With that said, I think this is still the best forum out there for tabletop gaming discussion, it just seems like it could be even better with a few fixes.
nickmund wrote:Im pretty sure Just Dave would'nt be too happy to here his Thread was'nt appreiciated, personally If a thread is usefull or well written I.E. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/311758.page then it is welcome, and if you are annoyed with repeating threads then you, as a DCM can block the thread and direct them to a previous thread.
Yeah, Dakka is still the best, IMO. I just wish we could find a happy medium between the out of control egotistical flame wars combined with incredibly good advice of times gone by with the nicer environment mixed with utterly terrible advice that we have now.
Hellfury wrote:Nowadays even moderators are trolls, so there you have it.
I think this is an important problem. Whether they acknowledge it or not, the moderators exercise a leadership role in Dakka Dakka, and if they're going to troll then they've set the tone.
Would be interesting to note the increase of population since the time you're talking about Dash. I suspect it's the whole 'victim of it's own success' problem.
I'm all for punting spankers, but not chumps or kids.
None the less, tell me who a spanker is? I know of one or two here I'm less than taken with, but if you think that poster is great but you and I have no issue with each other and have enjoyed good communication (I've been glad of your advice with my orks, for example), allowing open season would lead to me railing him, him railing me, you possibly getting involved, siding with one or the other, the other then attacking you, then folks on my side weighing in, then more on his side...
I don't see 'the community' rising up to exorcise individual demons, I see the 'self rule' ending up as the factions drawing lines in the sand and brawling until dakka sinks into a bog of loathing. 'The League of Cynical Haters' warring with 'Apologist Sons of Jervis', 'Rules as Written Adherents' in vicious hand to hand combat with 'The Common Sense Regime'...
Monster Rain wrote:In the Grim Future of Dakka Dakka, there is only drama.
It happens to most forums eventually. The last forums I posted on regularly (I was a member for probably 5 or so years) had all sorts of behind the scenes back-stabbings, cliques, the bulletproof and the trolls. I was only on the outer edges of most of the goings on (I had a blanket disinterest in getting involved) but bloody hell - there was all sorts of stuff going on that trickled into the forums and influenced the meta game, as it were.
Can't believe I was apparently on the admin shortlist for that place at one point
MeanGreenStompa wrote:'The League of Cynical Haters' warring with 'Apologist Sons of Jervis', 'Rules as Written Adherents' in vicious hand to hand combat with 'The Common Sense Regime'...
There should be a feature to join one of these 'guilds''.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:'The League of Cynical Haters' warring with 'Apologist Sons of Jervis', 'Rules as Written Adherents' in vicious hand to hand combat with 'The Common Sense Regime'...
There should be a feature to join one of these 'guilds''.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:'The League of Cynical Haters' warring with 'Apologist Sons of Jervis', 'Rules as Written Adherents' in vicious hand to hand combat with 'The Common Sense Regime'...
There should be a feature to join one of these 'guilds''.
Nuts and Bolts that action!
Or should I do it?
Go for it!
I'm now considering writing some rules for a game about it... Perchance I'll put them up on a blog and seek feedback here! ...wait just a minute...
One feature I liked on another forum was when people reported a post, the post would have a little icon in the corner so that everyone could see that it had been reported for something. I don't know if this public style of post report status would help people see what is and is not acceptable?
Flagging it as reported won't let you know what the moderators' ultimate judgment on the post was though, and that would be the true benchmark for unacceptability.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
George Spiggott wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:'The League of Cynical Haters' warring with 'Apologist Sons of Jervis', 'Rules as Written Adherents' in vicious hand to hand combat with 'The Common Sense Regime'...
There should be a feature to join one of these 'guilds''.
Nuts and Bolts that action!
Or should I do it?
Go for it!
I'm now considering writing some rules for a game about it... Perchance I'll put them up on a blog and seek feedback here! ...wait just a minute...
Let's see how the game's following turns out before I go bothering Lego about it.
These problems happen to every large forum, i've Ran enough to know they are usually solved by being strick to the stupid and ignore their 'crap' threads and friendly to the new guys. I purged many many people for been completely moronic. Not the kind that are young or just don't know better. But imature lazy arrogant argument starters.
Usually helps if a lot of people do it and not just one.
As a rule, I agree with Reecius about Dakka: the tactics and army list sections have gone to complete hell, but there's a lot of good discussions to be had.
As Nurglitch said, I'm of the belief that quality isnt' produced as much on Dakka simply because there is no incentive to post quality, and little disincentive to post garbage. From what I've seen and heard, I think Yak is a bit disengaged, and feels that as long as the site is growing, it's doing fine. Based on conversations I and other old timers have had with him, he's very politely and eloquently made it clear that he doesn't really care if we stay and post or not.
Still, you simply cannot find a 40k forum that's as active as dakka that isn't complete garbage. There are some forums with a higher signal/noise ratio, but they are usually pretty small. There is a lot of good stuff here (unlike warseer, which is just noise), but you do have to dig a little to find it.
Yeah, Yak has said that he thinks the atmosphere is much better here now than before.
Us Old Timers just like the way things were, even if it did get downright hostile.
I learned so much hanging out here listening to the old Tournament champs. Now some of the stuff I read in the tactics and list sections is so bad that I am sad for the new players who come here to hang out. They will read advice that will actually make them worse players!
Well, the atmosphere is better, which is great if we're basically creating a 4-chan board that tangentially discusses 40k.
I've toyed around with the idea of starting a dedicated, competitive 40k board, especially during my exile. I think that it's simply likely that the discussions I want to can't happen in a complete free for all.
There are ways to cut into it, however. You could clamp down on nonsense posts and threads, you could allow a bit more tussle in the tactics (I should be able to call a guy playing ridiculous army to a .500 record out for giving advice in every single IG thread).
I think we all understand the natural relationship between size and noise, but there are ways to filter it.
The problem isn't that it's impossible, or even difficult to filter the noise out. I honestly think that the noise is all the Admins care about, because page views and visitors all count the same if they're talking about favorite Primarch finishing moves or analyzing the fast attack choices of the SM codex.
Yeah, they need to allow the gloves to come off in the tactics section a bit more. I guess if Dakka is purely a moneymaking venture now, then it is what it is.
If you make a competitive only board, Plonius, count me in.
The only rule: Know what the feth you're talking about and back your assertions with facts, not opinions.
I don't think the Tactics Forums are that bad. There's some stupid things said, yeah. Usually the sensible point of view wins out. And so what if it doesn't?
The discussion is usually pretty warm in there too. On most of Dakka, really. I don't think I see the excessive moderation you guys are describing.
Nobody sees it, until they fail to verbally fellate the person they're arguing with while typing their post. Then the mods come out of the dark, chiding you for using terms like "jerk", "idiot" or "wrong."
christ your an EDITED (...and you're a Rule #1 breaker -grey_death), does it really matter what people want to talk about on dakka, it doesnt need to be "saved" or anything like that. I'm pretty sure most people go on dakka to kill some time, talk fluff or whatever and look at conversions. Its a hobby website not a miltary database of important toy soldier killing strategy, and if it was i sure as gak would hate it anyway end rant
That's fine, but what about the people that want to discuss things in a more serious fashion? Shouldn't we be allowed to do so?
I mean, I'm not unsympathetic to your point, but a lot of us have been here for years, and saw the tenor change pretty significantly.
And I'm not sure where arrogance fits into this thread at all. According to Dash, I'm pretty much the worst person here, but I don't think he's being horribly arrogant in this post.
One thing to consider is the demographic of the new posters. When Seer went down and users started migrating to other forums, I'm sure the age of the average Dakka poster dropped (No stats, just a gut hunch here...which could be wrong). I think age is important to remember.
For example, if I see a post that is rather silly (Finishing moves for Primarchs make me chuckle so we'll use that)....if I picture a 21+ year old posting...I think what a farking idiot, grow up already. If I picture a 12 year old getting into the game and being excited about the fluff...well I think "Great, another kid starting the hobby, hope he finds a good group of players to introduce him to the game". Pretty hard to get nerd rage when you consider that many of the posters putting up silly stuff....might have been 'us' 15+ years ago. Hell, glancing at my join date of 06'....I don't even know if I would qualify as old school but I bet if I were to go through my old initial posts...I would be pretty embarrassed at some of the nonsense I put up.
I think all of our online personas mature as we become more involved with an online community.
I first started lurking Dakka because I was told it was the BEST forum to get good 40K info. Back when Yakface was just another poster, Triggerbaby, Jester and Abbadoobeydoo were killing me with 1 liners, and Mauleed posted things that made me dislike him more than I should have. Eventually Mauleed calmed down, the 3 funnymen disappeared and Yak bought the site. Change was imminent.
Even though most of the 40K blogs and "shows" are garbage, how much do you think they dilute the content posted to sites like Dakka? Dash, if you didn't post on Bald and Screaming(?) would you post more content here?
Then there's the fact that people who post good content get frustrated at lack of content and stop posting, leading to less content. See the vicious circle?
Gamble wrote:Then there's the fact that people who post good content get frustrated at lack of content and stop posting, leading to less content. See the vicious circle?
Don't you think there's a bit of egotism that causes that though?
"Why don't they appreciate my brilliance?" seems to be a recurring theme from some posters. Maybe a blog would be more your speed, if this is your attitude.
Not your attitude, Gamble. Just a general "your" there.
Polonius wrote:Well, the atmosphere is better, which is great if we're basically creating a 4-chan board that tangentially discusses 40k.
I've toyed around with the idea of starting a dedicated, competitive 40k board, especially during my exile. I think that it's simply likely that the discussions I want to can't happen in a complete free for all.
Actually I think that this is a good idea. I'd rather visit a properly moderated forum. There's got to be other people that feel the same way.
That is exactly what Dakka was: The best source of info for ways to kill toy soldiers.
People who share your attitude have come in droves and now it is a happy place where people talk about happy things.
And judging by the way you insulted Polonius there, I think you would have really liked the Old Dakka. You seem to have no problem being a dick!
I meant that last line as a joke, not as an insult.
See what Dakka is like now? Hahaha, we have to put kid gloves on to even crack a joke.
@Age of Egos
You make a good point. It probably is a lot of kids posting all the silly stuff. Dakka used to be an older crowd, mostly adults in their twenties and thirties.
@Gamble
Ah yes, the funniest three posters ever! Tiger Baby still hangs out at the OTZone on occasion.
@MonsterRain
You make a good point. A lot of guys around here, especially the older guys who have earned their stripes, feel that other people should respect their opinion. That comes form the fact that in the old days, you had to prove you had a clue before anyone would put any stock in what you had to say.
Ah well. It is what it is. I still like the tournament discussion section as most of the guys who post there are my RL friends. Most everyone in there has an opinion that carries some weight as well, at least IMO.
Polonius wrote:Well, the atmosphere is better, which is great if we're basically creating a 4-chan board that tangentially discusses 40k.
I've toyed around with the idea of starting a dedicated, competitive 40k board, especially during my exile. I think that it's simply likely that the discussions I want to can't happen in a complete free for all.
Actually I think that this is a good idea. I'd rather visit a properly moderated forum. There's got to be other people that feel the same way.
Hmm, the problem is I don't know anything about running a forum. I start a new job this week, but maybe after I get my sea legs, we can put together something. BTW it was going to be called the "Grognard's Beerhall", with the slogan "Gaming for grown-ups"
I had a similar idea and then I went back to school. In theory that should mean lots of free time, but I'm digging around for a part-time job. I've goten too used to living like I get paid... Still, if you get something together let me know.
In all fairness, the search function does not work very well. Once this is fixed, it will be easier for the mods to lock threads left and right--which I agree with Polonius--is what needs to happen.
There are certain parts of Dakka that can remain free from quality control: OT, Background, Survivor Games, etc. But Tactics should be reclaimed as soon as possible. Army Lists will be the most difficult board to recover.
@Ordo Dakka
Oh yeah, Warseer is the worst 40K site on the net, no question. They have good P&M, News and Rumors and that's it. That is the thing though, Dakka is slowly transmogrifying into Warseer part deuce.
@Polonius
Yeah no joke, most of the old Dakkites that still post do so there. That may be the best bet.
Reecius wrote:@MonsterRain
You make a good point. A lot of guys around here, especially the older guys who have earned their stripes, feel that other people should respect their opinion. That comes form the fact that in the old days, you had to prove you had a clue before anyone would put any stock in what you had to say.
Ah well. It is what it is. I still like the tournament discussion section as most of the guys who post there are my RL friends. Most everyone in there has an opinion that carries some weight as well, at least IMO.
I can understand that, but I think most people know the difference between solid tactical advice and TERMIES FTWLOL!!!ONE1!
God, at least I hope they do. Am I giving people too much credit?
Manchu wrote:In all fairness, the search function does not work very well. Once this is fixed, it will be easier for the mods to lock threads left and right--which I agree with Polonius--is what needs to happen.
There are certain parts of Dakka that can remain free from quality control: OT, Background, Survivor Games, etc. But Tactics should be reclaimed as soon as possible. Army Lists will be the most difficult board to recover.
@Manchu
Exactly. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion, but the heavy handed moderation makes it tough to get good information out there. It gets lost in a sea of gak.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Monster Rain
Too much credit. Way too much credit! Hahaha.
It's not all doom and gloom. There are some great minds that post here, but it gets buried under so much bad, bad, terribad advice it is not worth even trying to stop the flood of crap.
I find the search function works well enough if you're willing to give it enough tries. If it works the first time I'm surprised. It'll usually work the second or third time.
But the thing about quality control is that places like the Off-Topic forum mean that lack of quality control seeps over into the other forums. Half of Off-Topic is simply stuff copied off of Fark.com, and the other half is trolling by Frazzled. There is simply no reason to have forums like that when there are better places on the internet for non-game-related discussions.
I honestly just commented on a similar thread (albeit a much less expressive one) not five minutes ago.
I am somewhat reluctant to tell Kilkrazy his business though...
Maybe have a "like" vs. "dislike" button on the bottom of every thread so that good threads can be elevated and bad ones buried. Similar to the “popular forum posts” we have now, but make it recyclable, after a day or two in the lime light give another outstanding thread a chance. I mean, the “popular forum posts” section has shown the same threads for months, people can subscribe to them if they want to be keep updated on that thread.
Just an idea.
EDIT: Since I'm suggesting stuff and what not I would like to ask that when someone quotes you, you get a little pm about it along with a link back to the thread where you were quoted. This would be an automated message and could be put into a different section of your pm inbox.
Similar to the how the escapist does it.
Nurglitch wrote:I find the search function works well enough if you're willing to give it enough tries. If it works the first time I'm surprised. It'll usually work the second or third time.
I'm not talking about the error message. I mean the way search results are returned: it makes it difficult to find recent on-point threads. When I can find them, I usually post a link in the offending thread and then use the alert-a-mod button.
@Reece: I think the moderating could stand to be a bit more heavy-handed regarding thread locks. But there should be more clear policies about why threads get locked. The main one was discussed in OP: duplication of silly threads. When I first started posting here, I spent most of my time in Background and attempted to clean up some of the trash while posting more thoughtful content. But my threads were constantly buried by "what would you be in 40k?" type ones. I gave up. Same story in OT. So let them be the pressure-release valves.
The effort should be spent on rehabilitating Tactics. Having a better search function is key to this.
A good point has been made about keeping the tenor up while not discouraging young posters or adults that are just new to the game. In my experience, some of the old hands can be cold fish using the forum to stroke their e-gos. A good place to start this revolution is self-evaluation/moderation.
Nurglitch wrote:But the thing about quality control is that places like the Off-Topic forum mean that lack of quality control seeps over into the other forums. Half of Off-Topic is simply stuff copied off of Fark.com, and the other half is trolling by Frazzled. There is simply no reason to have forums like that when there are better places on the internet for non-game-related discussions.
OT definitely bleeds into the rest of the site. There are some who would simply leave if there was no OT. But there is an argument that being able to say "take it to OT" keeps that crap out of the on-topic boards. The "OT attitude" that you seem to be talking about will probably not disappear if OT itself is jettisoned. I believe that is simply the default speed here on the internet. It applies to 40k as well as religion or politics (see e.g. YMDC).
If the moderators were oriented towards enforcing standards of content, then quality threads wouldn't be buried in a mountain of dross. Cutting out Off-Topic would free up moderator time to moderate the forums that are actually pertinent to the site. Let people 'blow off steam' elsewhere on the internet.
Regarding the duplication of threads, I always thought that the article system was wasted. It could have been used to collate and archive thread data, such as common rules disputes and questions and common tactics and whatnot, but it's really an invisible part of the site. Whenever I propose measues to make Dakka Dakka a resource for gamers rather than for campers like Gwar to stroke their own egos, I get told the moderators are too busy, and then a new non-game-related flamepit forum opens up.
Speaking of using Dakka as their personal playgrounds, it used to just be Frazzled, but I'm baffled at how otherwise good moderators like Killkrazy have started posting troll threads.
@Manchu
You make some excellent points. A lot of ego stroking goes on on the internet in general.
Whereas you like the background sections I am more of a tactics and lists guy. I feel like wandering in there is like jumping into a pool of idiocy.
But that is just my opinion. Dakka is growing so obviously most people don't feel the same way. Perhaps it is on us malcontents to just do our own thing and leave the masses to themselves.
I was talking to Yak about it and he made a good point. If you feel the quality of content has gone down, then make an effort to improve things or stop complaining.
Touche.
It's just that as Dakka grows, the idea of trying to single handedly improve things is just more effort than any of us working adults would be able or willing to put into it.
I don't have the time to post a lot generally. Sometimes like now I do, but most times I don't. When I go into the tactics and lists areas and see so much garbage advice, it just feels pointless to attempt to do anything about it. Better just to stay out and avoid causing a problem.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would rather come to a place where internal moderation (from posters) keeps quality higher and crap down.
Nurglitch wrote:Regarding the duplication of threads, I always thought that the article system was wasted. It could have been used to collate and archive thread data, such as common rules disputes and questions and common tactics and whatnot, but it's really an invisible part of the site.
I think this is an excellent point an bears more discussion. How could articles be made more visible?
Nurglitch wrote: Let people 'blow off steam' elsewhere on the internet.
Although I once argued on behalf of OT, I am very close to agreeing with you here, as well.
Reecius wrote:Dakka is growing so obviously most people don't feel the same way. Perhaps it is on us malcontents to just do our own thing and leave the masses to themselves.
Don't sell yourself short so quickly. Generally speaking, Dakka has grown because 40k is more popular, yes. But specifically speaking, Dakka has grown because of its own reputation. Once that reputation has changed, as per the OP, will Dakka continue to grow?
Reecius wrote:I was talking to Yak about it and he made a good point. If you feel the quality of content has gone down, then make an effort to improve things or stop complaining.
I have tried to make him and some of the mods aware of what little I've done. To little avail.
Reecisu wrote:Maybe I'm wrong, but I would rather come to a place where internal moderation (from posters) keeps quality higher and crap down.
The argument is that the age of users (and players of 40k in general) has dramatically decreased in the last ten years. Self-moderation like you are talking about may no longer be an option.
If there are a lot of kids here now then maybe it is doomed to Warseer-dom.
Maybe in the army lists and tactics section we could flag the thread at creation to be competitive or fluff oriented so that it filters out a lot of the different minded posters?
For background, it would be killer to see some of the fluff articles like BoLS posts on occasion. Those are great to read.
Nurglitch wrote:To be honest I've been doubting my own reasons for showing up and posting for a while now, it doesn't seem to do any good, and most of my favourite posters seem to have given up already.
If it wasn't for the Swap Shop I think I would have gotten myself banned years ago.
I like Dakka for News & Discussion, alongi with random stuff. Kinda burned out on the rest.
Manchu wrote: A good point has been made about keeping the tenor up while not discouraging young posters or adults that are just new to the game. In my experience, some of the old hands can be cold fish using the forum to stroke their e-gos. A good place to start this revolution is self-evaluation/moderation.
I personally don't think we should be trying to recapture the immediately pre-Yak days like some have suggested.
Maybe a contrary opinion here, but just before Yak bought the place, it hadn't yet crossed the event horizon, but it definitely was circling the singularity. IMO, it had become downright unfriendly and a bit of an echo chamber. Traffic had dropped noticeably. Lowlights included driving off Paul Sawyer and Moloch. And whether you feel that their reactions were warranted or not, they certainly were potential members with some extremely valuable connections and unique perspectives, and therefore IMO we should have tried to be, you know, polite? And going way back you have the old posters like Snord, etc., who contributed a lot to the forum but grew tired of the all-attitude-all-the-time thing here.
Tactics and Army Lists have probably suffered since those days, but those are only a couple boards on the forum. The hobby forums are vastly superior now just because word's gotten out that Dakka is a friendlier place. And now we even have a mod who's able to share some inside info in News and Rumors. Heck, Harry even chimed in the other day. Modding here can be inconsistent, however I've also been here long enough to remember the days that the forum was practically unmodded.
So I guess I'm kinda siding with Yak here. If Tactics and Army Lists in particular are lacking good content, then it's on us to provide it. *shrug*
At my school, many people adore Dakkadakka saying "it's cool" and "i learnt how to paint stuff". However, there are also people who just go on to troll. "lol lets troll a wargamers forum". But all of the 15 people i recommended to dakka are good of character and don't troll but do post randomly.
Otherwise most people i talk to seem to like DakkaDakka and say most of the posts are useful.
Warhammer 40k became my alternative to DnD and WoW, which took a decided turn for the worst back in 2008.
DakkaDakka was the most inviting forum to test the waters in for advice in Warhammer 40k and as a laid back forum that I could appreciate like MtGSalvation was.
I'm still buying stuff. Usually through trades, but occasionally I'll jump on the odd 60% off deal. I think I'm just about done collecting Space Marines, just need to collect the bits for representative Sternguard models, but I also have a Tyranid army to fill out, my Orks need new stuff, and it looks like my entire Dark Eldar force is now out of date. Mind you, thanks to the Swap Shop (among other places), I've managed to amass an army of Loyalist Beakies, and an army of Renegade Bunny-Eared Spartans. Some day soon they should even be painted, thanks to my new digs in Ottawa.
I think a good point has been raised - Dakka needs moderators of content. Killkrazy is trolling with mocking replicas of this thread here in Dakka discussion, which presents an example for other posters do to the same, leaving us 3-4 spam posts sprouting up on Dakka discussion; all of which are probably egregious violations of rule #1, but since a moderator started it...its ok? Several other moderators have their....own interesting personalities here, and all moderation is geared towards behavior with no focus on content.
So "lawl, every1 nows dat Loganwing are the lamez for n00bz" is perfectly acceptable content, while "Holy Mephiston on a stick, please do not return to Dakka until you graduate 3rd grade and get get screened by my pet monkey for intelligence" is unacceptable.
Thus content-less posting has become acceptable, while those unfuriated over the wash of drivel and garbage can't call it such for fear of offending someone. I think a *lot* of people have tried being useful contributors to Dakka. How many dozens and hundreds of hours have I spent taking pictures, writing battle reports, uploading pictures, meticulously recounting battles for people.....only to see my efforts get washed under by the yammerings of people wanting to argue a fine point of how something was played? Or dismiss my efforts and work? Or simply troll in one aspect or another? And much worse?
How many painters and modelers have stopped posting content because their efforts are met with, "Looks bad, not enuff highlights and ...blah blah blah." Who don't post pictures of their works, or tutorials because they get buried under a spam of other posts asking questions that CTRL+F on the FIRST PAGE could have answered for them? The same is true for pretty much every other section of Dakka.
How many tactical articles will never be written because those small gems get quickly buried in the offal of "Which Space Marine chapter is best?" polls and threads, and the authors decide that the effort isn't worth it?
I think that A new generation of moderators are needed - whose job it is to filter areas of Dakka to preserve their utility and to encourage people to contribute. OffTopic is a useless forum for miniature gaming discussion - a good start would be shuffling of repetitive threads or polls, or content-less threads over there. Or into a new section titled "Miniature Gaming Random" or "Random Warhammer threads" or stuff like that. When you have to SEARCH through the Tactics discussion looking for....*gasp* a thread about the tactical relevance of something, or how to deal with a particular issue, and it not be an ad naseum repeated topic that a copy/paste of a predecessor thread can answer, the forum needs work.
I disagree. I think the moderation staff takes their jobs as overseeing a forum based around the discussion of lil' plastic space manz as seriously as they ought to be.
Monster Rain wrote:I disagree. I think the moderation staff takes their jobs as overseeing a forum based around the discussion of lil' plastic space manz as seriously as they ought to be.
I think the whole intent of this thread was to rock the boat regardless and make people think about the place they have been posting on in another light;
What truly is DakkaDakka and what does it mean to you?
Monster Rain wrote:I disagree. I think the moderation staff takes their jobs as overseeing a forum based around the discussion of lil' plastic space manz as seriously as they ought to be.
I think the whole intent of this thread was to rock the boat regardless and make people think about the place they have been posting on in another light;
What truly is DakkaDakka and what does it mean to you?
It's hysterically funny, and chock full of good content if you can be arsed to look through the chaff to find it.
Also, it has made me love Canadians in a way that I never thought possible.
It's made this month waiting for classes to start significantly more enjoyable.
My old argument regarding OT is that Dakka is more than an information archive; it's a living community. So imagine that you were playing at the FLGS and you decided to go out for a smoke. Considering it bad form to discuss politics or religion in the store, you chat it over outside. And then a store employee comes out at tells you that you're not allowed to talk about that? I know it's not a perfect metaphor: to work properly, you'd need fifteen guys who don't know or care about each other, all claiming to know exactly how the world could be saved if only every one would subscribe to their views or simply obey them, willing to shout at each other for hours on end. Okay, I can see someone stepping in and telling those guys to get lost.
But let's say Yak gets rid of OT. What really changes in Tactics or the Army List forum? What changes in 40k Background?
Dashofpepper wrote: How many painters and modelers have stopped posting content because their efforts are met with, "Looks bad, not enuff highlights and ...blah blah blah." Who don't post pictures of their works, or tutorials because they get buried under a spam of other posts asking questions that CTRL+F on the FIRST PAGE could have answered for them? The same is true for pretty much every other section of Dakka.
I really think that we should have a seperate forum for suggesting which posts should be put up in the hall of honour which is the article section.
Dashofpepper wrote:I think that A new generation of moderators are needed.
Sounds like you would like to volunteer.
Maybe you could replace Frazzled - trolling bastard that he is. He must have compromising photo's of Yak to have kept that job. However, as mod you will only be allowed two sentences with a mx of 120 words to explain your point.
It seems there are some users who are not happy with the way things are.
The message I am getting is that you don’t like newbies making stupid comments and threads, and you don’t like not being allowed to call them stupid n00bie jerks.
The thing is, newbies have always been around, and they are worse on forums which deal with 40K and attract a high proportion of teenager boys just getting into the game. As the forum grows, it attracts more newbies.
That said, the same issues of recycling threads, ignoring stickies, the Search system and Articles, happen on all forums. It is normal human behaviour.
Despite that, the management are not going to allow you to shout insults at other users, no matter how stupid you think their ideas are. DakkaDakka isn’t that kind of forum any more, if it ever really was.
There are other ways of addressing these issues, though.
1. You can ignore ‘stupid’ threads. Instead of getting angry, I just don't bother to look at ‘40K vs Halo’, etc, any more. Problem solved!
2. You can post more ‘good’ threads. Signal/Noise ratio is a two-way street. When there was a rash of complaints about YMDC, I encouraged people to “reclaim the streets” by posting more -- politely, of course.
3. You can argue with stupid users providing you present your counter-arguments calmly and rationally. It is not necessary to shout at people, and generally it is icounter-productive.
4. You can wait a while. The swarm of ‘40K vs Halo’ threads happens every year in the summer holidays, and it subsides once the youngsters go back to school.
5. You can complain (Yellow Triangle) about ‘bad’ threads. The moderators’ opinion of what should be done is not necessarily the same as yours. See the points made above for some reasons why. It doesn’t mean that moderators ignore your opinion, however we won’t necessarily take the action that you feel is appropriate.
Finally I think you have to accept that DakkaDakka is an open forum. It isn’t designed to cater to a specific tight group of serious tournament players. It is a forum where everyone interested in wargames can discuss their particular area of interest -- painting, modelling, fluff or tactics -- so long as they are polite to each other. If you want something with a more specific focus, blogs are good because all comments can be moderated before posting.
Just a quick question on reporting posts/threads... if you consider a post or thread to be spam (ie I just saw a poll where both the answers were the same and there was no real discussion in the posts that followed), should you report it?
I had so much multi- post here it just wasnt funny. No way was anyone going to wade through that text wall.
I stopped coming to Dakka because it was just uneven. Moderators are rude and demand that others watch their P's and Q's. It's bs. Dakka exists to attract the numbers to make the traffic, period. Quality and thoughtfulness stand in the way of that, since they inherrently involve filtering. Filtering reduces flow rate. Reduced flow rate cannot be tolerated and therefore filtering goes out the window.
Dakka HAS changed. For those of you thinking about ways to make it better ala Reecius' conversation with Yak, I heartily suggest you start in YMDC. If you cannot take that back, you are just fooling yourselves anyway. OT should be anything goes, just as the name states; let it circle the drain since that is what it is there for. Just a suggestion, you do as you like.
Someone know a better forum I can visit? Dakkaseer just doesnt cut it for me as a go-to forum anymore. I use the crap out of the ignore function, but it doesn't let you ignore stupidity, just users.
Reecius wrote:I was talking to Yak about it and he made a good point. If you feel the quality of content has gone down, then make an effort to improve things or stop complaining.
Touche.
Thats works until you're told that contributions you make are not enough to be considered contributions and its really money that matters.
Thats on record.
Ultimately, Yak's assertion is only half correct and half cop-out excuse.
Reecius wrote:I was talking to Yak about it and he made a good point. If you feel the quality of content has gone down, then make an effort to improve things or stop complaining.
Touche.
Thats works until you're told that contributions you make are not enough to be considered contributions and its really money that matters.
Thats on record.
Ultimately, Yak's assertion is only half correct and half cop-out excuse.
That touche made me lol. This place is here to make money. Kinda ironic that the owner is telling the proles to fix his income source, until you realize what the money trail looks like. Oh, I admit that this place is Yak's and his solely; he bought it. I am not going to sit here and say it should be this, that, or the other. It's not my place. I am a prole here, just like everyone of you. However, if I DO post here, it's going to be with my eyes wide open to what this place is and what it exists for. And it's not to be the best 40k forum on the net. That's like believing that the Hardee's down the street exists to bring you tasty foods, or that Home Depot exists to empower you to be able to improve your home, or that MicroSoft exits to bring you helpful software.
Dashofpepper wrote:So "lawl, every1 nows dat Loganwing are the lamez for n00bz" is perfectly acceptable content, while "Holy Mephiston on a stick, please do not return to Dakka until you graduate 3rd grade and get get screened by my pet monkey for intelligence" is unacceptable.
Neither of those are acceptable content. And either one would warrant moderator attention.
Thus content-less posting has become acceptable, while those unfuriated over the wash of drivel and garbage can't call it such for fear of offending someone.
Expecting people to act with a modicum of common courtesy isn't actually exclusive to Dakka. Is your hobby really such a serious business that calling some 12-year-old an idiot for starting a thread you personally don't approve of becomes acceptable behaviour?
How many painters and modelers have stopped posting content because their efforts are met with, "Looks bad, not enuff highlights and ...blah blah blah."
Good question. How many is it?
Because, again, we police that sort of thing when we see it.
Who don't post pictures of their works, or tutorials because they get buried under a spam of other posts asking questions that CTRL+F on the FIRST PAGE could have answered for them?
Tutorials shouldn't be getting buried under questions, since there's a special, dedicated section just for them, where question threads aren't allowed.
How many tactical articles will never be written because those small gems get quickly buried in the offal of "Which Space Marine chapter is best?" polls and threads, and the authors decide that the effort isn't worth it?
Shouldn't be a problem for the same reason as above... those two threads would belong in different sections.
The simple fact is, the mods don't read every thread. If you're seeing posts that are in the wrong place, or are in breach of Dakka's rules (which include standards of grammar and spelling) then hit the yellow button and let the mods deal with it when they can.
Just keep in mind that the mods, as human beings themselves, won't always agree with your opinion of a given post. and even if they do you won't always see a visible reaction, since so much of the moderation here is done by PM or email.
Ultimately, Dakka is here to discuss the wargaming hobby. Exactly what topics of conversation within that hobby are popular is not a moderation issue... it's down to the posters. If the posting community is more interested in discussing the size of Leman Russ's boots than the tactical finesse required to win with Orks, then that's up to the posting community. If you would rather see more 'mature' discussion, then ignore the threads you don't like, and engage in more mature discussion.
Some of the rules 'discussions' depress me. There was one about using an oddity in the 40K rules that means you start a vehicle turned 90° and then turn to face the enemy before moving effectively means you get to move forwards an extra 2". You'd have to be a total douche to play the game exploiting such things to get such a small advantage, yet it went on for pages and pages as though that's a reasonable way to play the game.
Reecius wrote:Yeah, Yak has said that he thinks the atmosphere is much better here now than before.
Us Old Timers just like the way things were, even if it did get downright hostile.
I learned so much hanging out here listening to the old Tournament champs. Now some of the stuff I read in the tactics and list sections is so bad that I am sad for the new players who come here to hang out. They will read advice that will actually make them worse players!
And what would you do about it? Part of what made Dakka strong was its laissez faire attitude.
On a personal note its enjoyable to see that several of the complainers would be the first against the wall if we did clamp down.
Reecius wrote:Yeah, Yak has said that he thinks the atmosphere is much better here now than before.
Us Old Timers just like the way things were, even if it did get downright hostile.
I learned so much hanging out here listening to the old Tournament champs. Now some of the stuff I read in the tactics and list sections is so bad that I am sad for the new players who come here to hang out. They will read advice that will actually make them worse players!
And what would you do about it? Part of what made Dakka strong was its laissez faire attitude.
On a personal note its enjoyable to see that several of the complainers would be the first against the wall if we did clamp down.
Yeah, they need to allow the gloves to come off in the tactics section a bit more. I guess if Dakka is purely a moneymaking venture now, then it is what it is.
If you make a competitive only board, Plonius, count me in.
The only rule: Know what the feth you're talking about and back your assertions with facts, not opinions.
Whats funny is the reports don't come from the tactics section. Its rare we get reports from there. We get reports in YMDC all the time however, and conflict is high. If you're proposing make tactics like YMDC that would be...stupid, just stupid.
You can say someone's tactics are crap, just be polite and attack the points, not the person.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurglitch wrote:
Polonius wrote:Well, the atmosphere is better, which is great if we're basically creating a 4-chan board that tangentially discusses 40k.
I've toyed around with the idea of starting a dedicated, competitive 40k board, especially during my exile. I think that it's simply likely that the discussions I want to can't happen in a complete free for all.
Actually I think that this is a good idea. I'd rather visit a properly moderated forum. There's got to be other people that feel the same way.
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out Nuglitch.
Reecius wrote:Yeah, Yak has said that he thinks the atmosphere is much better here now than before.
Us Old Timers just like the way things were, even if it did get downright hostile.
I learned so much hanging out here listening to the old Tournament champs. Now some of the stuff I read in the tactics and list sections is so bad that I am sad for the new players who come here to hang out. They will read advice that will actually make them worse players!
And what would you do about it? Part of what made Dakka strong was its laissez faire attitude.
On a personal note its enjoyable to see that several of the complainers would be the first against the wall if we did clamp down.
Including yourself?
Hell yea, me too. OF course I was a dick before I became a mod, and will be one after. Whats interesting is that there are complaints about me on here, but unless we've tangled in the OT, we've probebly only interacting on the Mod front. Again, interesting.
I'm seeing people complain that there needs to be more moderation, but that the mods are bad guys in moderating THEM. Interesting, and joyously human.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Some of the rules 'discussions' depress me. There was one about using an oddity in the 40K rules that means you start a vehicle turned 90° and then turn to face the enemy before moving effectively means you get to move forwards an extra 2". You'd have to be a total douche to play the game exploiting such things to get such a small advantage, yet it went on for pages and pages as though that's a reasonable way to play the game.
'Odd' rules discussions are not exclusive to Dakka. That particular debate you mentioned has raged since the start of 3rd edition on every major 40K forum at some point or another... generally more than once. It's another of those recurring themes mentioned earlier.
For the record: we also get "Save Dakka!" threads every half year or so, too .
Not that there aren't valid points here- but the only way to change most of it is to have more quality posts than crappy ones. So if you know your stuff, post about it convincingly, and let your voice be heard!
Also about the "wild wild west" of Dakka's previous days- I read Dakka in high school fairly often (over 10 years ago now) and honestly I don't think it was better (or even that different). People often hark back to the "good old days" in all sorts of things, but if you were to actually go back, it either wouldn't work in the current climate (read: number of users) or it wasn't that great, after all!
grizgrin wrote:
That touche made me lol. This place is here to make money. Kinda ironic that the owner is telling the proles to fix his income source, until you realize what the money trail looks like. Oh, I admit that this place is Yak's and his solely; he bought it. I am not going to sit here and say it should be this, that, or the other. It's not my place. I am a prole here, just like everyone of you. However, if I DO post here, it's going to be with my eyes wide open to what this place is and what it exists for. And it's not to be the best 40k forum on the net. That's like believing that the Hardee's down the street exists to bring you tasty foods, or that Home Depot exists to empower you to be able to improve your home, or that MicroSoft exits to bring you helpful software.
Regarding money, do you remember when the site was put up on Ebay and he made the balance sheet available for those interested in purchasing the site? I don't know if you contacted him and downloaded the PDF but I did. The profit margin was so low, I'm sure he made the proverbial pennies an hour for the time put in. Now I'm sure the traffic has increased since then (Else people wouldn't be posting that they don't know like all the content anymore due to the number of new members)...but I doubt Dakka is a financial juggernaut.
This isn't directed to your post but as an aside...as an old dude that's been on several forums over my internet life....disagreement with Mods is as natural as the sun rising. In the end, it helps to remember that the Mods don't get paid for their duties and are people who have good/bad days...just like the rest of us =p. It's best not to sweat the small stuff...and considering the root subject matter that brought us all here;
I do believe the sale predated my join date, but really dont know. And I concede your very valid point in that Dakka isn't some cash cow. However, it's not a not-for-profit either.
As far as the pic, too true. Hence my last post, in part at least. Everyone has their limit beyond which Dakka isn't wirth it. Even the most rabid fanboy.
On a personal note its enjoyable to see that several of the complainers would be the first against the wall if we did clamp down.
Including yourself?
Hell yea, me too. OF course I was a dick before I became a mod, and will be one after. Whats interesting is that there are complaints about me on here, but unless we've tangled in the OT, we've probebly only interacting on the Mod front. Again, interesting.
And yet one post above this one I quoted, we have...
Frazzled wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
Polonius wrote:Well, the atmosphere is better, which is great if we're basically creating a 4-chan board that tangentially discusses 40k.
I've toyed around with the idea of starting a dedicated, competitive 40k board, especially during my exile. I think that it's simply likely that the discussions I want to can't happen in a complete free for all.
Actually I think that this is a good idea. I'd rather visit a properly moderated forum. There's got to be other people that feel the same way.
Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out Nuglitch.
Where's that facepalm emorkon again? Ah yes.
Seriously, James. It might be time to take the mod hat off. Your head has grown to large to wear it.
I have to agree with Mean Green that DD is becoming a victim of it's on successes. I think with being the top dog you are going to attract everyone. I don't bother with other communities because this is the best one. BOLS - is crappy slow on my work PC, Warseer makes my eyes hurt.
Yeah there is a lot of crap on these forums but I would like to see the non-serious polls fade out however I think the good outweighs the bad currently.
Kilkrazy wrote:It seems there are some users who are not happy with the way things are.
The message I am getting is that you don’t like newbies making stupid comments and threads, and you don’t like not being allowed to call them stupid n00bie jerks.
No, not at all.
The message is that I increasingly find more and more people in my travels around the country that won't post or read on Dakka anymore because the signal to noise ratio has reached critical mass, and they feel like its digging through their spam folder looking for an e-mail that might have accidentally slipped through.
NEWBIES are not the issue. NEWBIES are fine. They are welcome. They should be greeted with open arms, their every question answered in-depth by a team of experienced Dakkaites, and they should feel like the universe of 40k is unfolding its mysteries before their eyes. That's how *I* felt when I was a newbie here, and that was not even three years ago.
It isn't newbies making stupid comments that are the problem, it is STUPID people making stupid comments, posts, and useless threads that are the problem. The last year and a half of my posting on Dakka has been dedicated to newbies. Answering their questions, making them feel welcome, helping them with their army lists, answering their tactical questions, writing battle reports as demonstrative material for reference to specifically ork tactical material....it has grown much more difficult to filter through the crap to FIND the noobies and the questions they need answered. Mods, if you can see peoples' inboxes....feel free to surf through mine. I can't count the number of messages I have along the lines of, "Hi Dash, after reading your X/Y/Z, I wanted to ask your help with something blah blah blah." And 99% of the time, my answer is "Hey! Thanks for the message - if you would be so kind, copy and paste your question into a thread in X/Y/Z section and send me a link to it. I'm happy to help, but hopefully having a thread instead of a PM means that you get multiple perspectives on your question, and others might benefit too." And I oftentimes get a message back along the lines of, "Alright, but I didn't because I was afraid it would get lost in the shuffle / devolve into argument."
The message here isn't about newbies making posts, its about Dakka being a spam folder that requires digging to find something good to read. About junk and spam burying useful content.
grizgrin wrote:And I concede your very valid point in that Dakka isn't some cash cow. However, it's not a not-for-profit either.
May i ask, what is wrong with earning some money with the traffic your board generates? In the quoted and one of your previous posts, you gave me the impression that you believe, that being profitable is wrong.
Another thing I have been thinking upon relative to the message of this thread and the intent of the OP.
WARNING: Hard Hat Area. Constructive Criticism Ahead.
Well, maybe call it theorypersonhammering or something...
Dashofpepper has been a regular contributor in terms of tactical content and battle reports for three running years now (more so in the last year than before). In the last year, Dashofpepper has had a turbulent amount of criticism relative to his rise in skill and vocality discussing Warhammer 40k. His thread signatures offer an interesting perspective to the frustration he has been going through in order to enjoy a game and a gaming website dedicated in part to the game.
At some point here Dashofpepper decided he cannot stand the way the forums are being directed, either because of member content or the will of the moderators. I dunno. Can't divine intent not written here. What I do know is Dashofpepper is a man who does not take a challenge lying down, so up goes two threads (one he starts) about the way the forums are run and attract a good chunk of posters to these threads to discuss/vent their support/rage about DakkaDakka.
So his criticisms boil down to two points:
1. Certain Content Sucks- Dashofpepper levels his criticism at posts and threads that do not meet a certain rationale he has concocted for being useful. While I agree to an extent to his argument here, I would not want to hamper new posters too much as to scare them away when a moderator comes along and locks down a thread that may seen inappropriate to senior DakkaDakka members for "useless" content.
His specific examples included fluff threads (Primarchs) which are actually within the confines of the 40k Background thread and are common questions throughout the forum world, polls (which mainly are in the hands of moderators in the Polls forum), and tactics threads with a one dimensional goal of attempting to prove what is the rock to everyone's scissor whether it is a codex, army, or unit.
Certain threads should be discouraged, such as ones that continue to bring up relatively pointless topics. However, the vast majority of these threads are critiques of a sort that allow people to debate if they have a firm grasp of the source material their side of the argument of "Who is better."
On tactics threads he has an argument. Perhaps we should encourage the better tactical threads to be teased out of the forum and displayed for people to see, complete with FAQs and in-depth information regarding each unit. For instance, I like the Ork and Tyranid tactical assessments given for each unit with critical breakdowns for how each unit should be fielded in the Dakka Article Section or what should b their preferential upfrades. Some of the Ork information may be dated to the early 5th edition time, but much of it is sound advice and a perfect platform for which people could ask questions about how a unit may work in the grand scheme of things.
2. Certain Moderators Suck- Dashofpepper's second long thread here discusses the failure of moderators to act like moderators to his liking. He specifically mentions one moderator and then uses painting and modeling, tactical threads, and generally "useless" posting as areas that have been threatened by lack of good moderation.
The moderator's intent to gauge member reactions is valid. I think Dashofpepper sees it as a symptom of the problem he sees, but it is left to interpretation.
I don't think anyone disagrees to the examples Dashofpepper uses as examples (i.e. Loganwing and poor spelling example) of bad posting. However their prevalence is small and minute compared to the other ranges of posts which go from being okay to great. Poor spelling and grammatical errors in abundance combined with assaulting insults are an extreme case.
As for tactical and painting and modeling, well I already discussed briefly what he intended as his own criticism for tactical assessments and threads and my contributions to the Painting and Modeling forum and derived content has been minor at best. Suffice to say, perhaps some professional artists could be found that could be useful to help people improve their artwork with constructive criticism (kinda like Swap Shop Mods) rather than either nothing or one liner criticisms that cannot help in any event.
Dashofpepper's criticism of moderators does has some validity, but for the most part it is contained within the Off-Topic forum (which I am doing my utter best to avoid at all costs for the time being). However, moderators are not inhuman machines. They each have a personality that is glimmered through there posts, actions, and enforcements here at DakkaDakka. If there is a specific problem that Dashofpepper has/had, he could discuss this in private with the moderators or administrators of the site. No reason to bring this to the public view unless it is an egregious display of poor judgment and bad behavior.
But that brings me at last to some constructive criticism here Dashofpepper. You are a great player and a good person from what I have seen in your posts and your actions abroad in Warhammer 40k and in the DakkaDakka forums. However, you have pride. Pride is apart of you as it is your nature. You seem to me unable take an insult humbly. You regard your judgement highly and while you do try to help people, you sound vain and hurbistic in the way you present people with constructive help. As part of your pride, you have garnered attention and hate that could be avoided with careful words and affable nature.
I cannot fathom if this is who you truly are, as I have an internet to interpret and not a person before me. I think you are a good person, but your level of frustration and inability to compromise has made this argument come to pass about DakkaDakka's current content and I would very much like to see where the future of this debate goes.
EDIT: Again, this is the internet and I cannot read a person through the web.
EDIT 2: I have talked to Dashofpepper via a phone conversation for a trade of Necrons for...Necrons and Orky bits. He seems reasonable, but that is a small sliver of a discussion that does not go into depth.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:The little yellow triangle is for decorative purposes only.
This is false in my experience, when reporting recently duplicated threads and necromancy. I think other issues for report are more contentious and therefore it might just seem that you are being ignored.
Dashofpepper wrote:
It isn't newbies making stupid comments that are the problem, it is STUPID people making stupid comments, posts, and useless threads that are the problem.
What do you consider a stupid post or useless thread? It it just a post that repeats earlier questions...or something else? I ask, not out of malice...but because 'stupid' is subjective and unique to each person.
I would also humbly add this; some of what is making you frustrated might just be the internet. For example, earlier you pointed out how in the painting/modeling section people are met with silly critics at times. Well, head on over to CMON if you want to truly witness silly critics...as I've seen some gorgeous miniatures there pull out the worst in the critics. It's just the nature of anonymity and the internet.
Warone, there shouldn't be anything negative taken out of my postings about the moderators. The only notes I've made about them were that Killkrazy mocked this thread with one of his own, which gave a seal of approval for other people to do the same, causing polls about polls to spring up around Dakka.
The only other note that I made was that moderators exist here to moderate behavior, not content - and that we need supplemental moderators to moderate content. Not to *DELETE* stuff....just to shift it. Create a spam folder, or a "Wargaming random" section of the forums, and police General Discussion and Tactics and pick up all the random crap that comes up, has no value, but doesn't belong in OT (Which Primarch is best in the bedroom?) and drop that crap into the *other* place.
I wasn't going to suggest that all our moderators be tasked with additional work; they do a good job at what they do. But we need an additional level of screening, for something completely different now.
The gallery is moderated for content, but only things that are either A) Not wargaming related, or B) not a quality picture (too fuzzy, etc).
I think there's a problem with moderating the rest of this (or any) discussion forum for content, since who's to say what is valid and what is not? Especially when we're talking about tactics, as it greatly depends on the setting you're in what is viable or not.
Just played 'Ard Boyz, and it was clear that some things are just NOT viable in that setting . However, we're about to start an escalation league and many of the things that wouldn't be feasible in an 'Ard Boyz setting are perfectly legitimate options for it.
It really comes down to, who would make those calls / decisions? People get upset at moderators censoring rules-breaking posts- so moderators censoring content would surely bring about the apocalypse and the end of the world as we know it .
I have had several request for moderation ignored. They have been as you say more contentious issues, Manchu.
I think has been no indication that anyone has actually seen the flagging. Understandably the mods may see things differently. I would settle for acknowledgement of that.
Appreciate that the mods have lives beyond Dakka, but it might help if they could post a gentle reminder of prescence in such cases. Just a thought.
Dashofpepper wrote:
It isn't newbies making stupid comments that are the problem, it is STUPID people making stupid comments, posts, and useless threads that are the problem.
What do you consider a stupid post or useless thread? It it just a post that repeats earlier questions...or something else? I ask, not out of malice...but because 'stupid' is subjective and unique to each person.
A useless thread? How about THIS ONE to lead the charge? Which Primarch has the most sexual prowess? That needs to go into the not-yet-made junk section of the forums.
On a tangent for mentioning gallery moderation, it would be nice if the gallery was more actively used by people. I can't think of a solution but my most visited images only have around 20 votes yet have 500-1000 views. The highest one has 1167 views and just 19 votes which is a mere 1.5% of traffic stopping to vote. This seems to be normal for most people. To get over 100 votes you appear to need tens of thousands of views, which is a shame IMO, voting can hardly be simpler.
I've been about on Dakka Dakka for about two years now(I spent a few months lurking before taking the plunge). Dakka welcomed me in with open arms, and as I got to know the various forum personalities and sections, I derived greater and greater enjoyment from the site. I attempted to repay this by commenting regularly and consisting on the matter of Dark Eldar tactics (as the army I've played regularly, and in many tournaments). Many interesting discussions resulted from this, mainly with clthomps, and Thor, and in those discussions were born most of the DE tactics used in 5th Edition to this day. I had several interesting and well structured debates on fluff with the likes of Manchu, and genuinely enjoyed being a regular contributor.
But over time, I just...burned out I guess. I got bored of having to repeat the exact same tactics advice once a week to every newbie. I got bored of seeing the same old arguments hashed out every other thread in OT. A few months back, I tried to re-engage with these areas of the forum, but to an extent, I find Dash is right. There are so many meaningless threads in there clogging up the space, and I simply don't have the motivation any more to sift through the debris and 4chan to get to the gold. Most of the people who I used to engage with also seem to have stopped posting.
I wasn't around during the 'good old days of yore', but I have noticed in my brief few years here, that in my opinion, the quality of the tactics and fluff sections has seriously gone downhill. I simply don't have the inclination to try and bring the quality back up myself, as I have enough on my plate in real life. I got given moderation in one area of the forum as a result of kicking up a stink about improvement, the last thing I need is a second one!
Dashofpepper wrote:
It isn't newbies making stupid comments that are the problem, it is STUPID people making stupid comments, posts, and useless threads that are the problem.
What do you consider a stupid post or useless thread? It it just a post that repeats earlier questions...or something else? I ask, not out of malice...but because 'stupid' is subjective and unique to each person.
A useless thread? How about THIS ONE to lead the charge? Which Primarch has the most sexual prowess? That needs to go into the not-yet-made junk section of the forums.
Treesong- Good point, I think that's why "gallery votes" is listed above post count (as incentive) but unfortunately not many have taken advantage of that (myself included). Would be great to talk about how to increase the vote-to-view ratio (although it does look like it's similar to the lurk-to-post ratio in the rest of the forum, depending on the topic, I think?)
Ketara- Great point! I do think this is just a symptom of any large forum with lots of new members, though, which is what stickies / articles are for and pointing people to them...
Dash- Maybe you should just consider the "General Discussion" section to have threads not to your liking? Anything more specific than what you've listed goes into one of the other forums, and tends to (not always, of course) be a little more productive.
Again, if the moderators were screening content- it's very likely that two of the threads in your sig (A day in the life of a 40k professional, and your real life bat rep) could be viewed as spam by some people. Who gets to make that call?
As for what was discussed earlier in the thread about calling people out- the comments to the real life bat rep post (on the blog, not on Dakka) in particular say (to me) that that's a really bad idea to allow on a discussion forum- calling out whoever someone thinks is off the mark. I don't want anything like those comments on Dakka... EVER. This was discussed earlier, but for people who want an unmoderated platform to espouse their ideas of tactics / the game in general / tournament scene / whatever, starting a blog is a great idea...
It would probably take a dedicated tactics moderator to cross-reference and then lock the duplicate threads. And, again, a better search function would be key to that endeavor. But while we wait, I would suggest that the mods consider a new rule. Something like "the title of your thread should reflect its content." I have noticed lately (although I am sure it has gone on forever) that many thread titles are ambiguous to say the least. Titles that are more representative of their content will be better for mods to watch for needless duplicates as well as for users looking for answers/looking to give answers.
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Dashofpepper wrote:That needs to go into the not-yet-made junk section of the forums.
= 40k Background or OT, take your pick. When I see this stuff, I usually employ the yellow triangle.
Frazzled wrote:Not to you DoP but that one has some actual suggestions vs. just "mods bad" or "get rid of the useless stuff"
Whats useless?
Whats useful?
Who decides?
Why is their griping about both too much moderation and not enough moderation?
For example, if you're talking about improving the tactics forum-how? Give specifics.
Alright.
Step #0: Make DoP the Tactics Moderator. I will regulate. Step #1: create a "Rules for Posting in Tactics" section. Threads must be a question or a statement.
Example A.) Is Ghazghkull Thraka a useful addition to my army?
Example B.) Tactical Assessment: Why Ghazghkull Thraka is a lynchpin unit
Posts titled "Ghazghkull" would get a beat-stick. Posts titled, "Plasma weapons" would get a beat stick. Threads need to be asking for advice, or offering tactical advice about something - not random threads with a one or two word title offering little clue about the contents inside, meaning that people are expected to go READ the thread to see what its about - that's a large piece of the whole "filtering through garbage" - people don't take the time to formulate their thoughts and express them well, and that behavior is acceptable here. Enforcing a standard in the creation of a new thread (much like is done over at the Swap Shop) would quickly result in an increased quality of posting and ease of use and topical skimming.
Step #3: Your tactics moderator makes a library of threads that pop up often and either sorts them as personal bookmarks, or creates a sticky thread with an "Index" of commonly addressed tactical issues. If I want to discuss the merits of taking Vulkan in my list, I can go to the Tactics Index, CTRL+F and search for Vulkan, pick one of the threads about him, and go post in that thread.
Step #4: Tactics section itself probably doesn't need such a heavy hand on necromancy. A discussion on the utility of a crusader land raider vs. a redeemer land raider that started and ended a year ago is still a valid discussion today and the points are still the same. If someone wants to freshly discuss it, pointing them to the thread in question instead of having an entirely new thread created about it would be useful.
That would be my efforts to reclaim tactics anyway. The swap shop guys made a "Trusted Trader" list that you can quickly search to see what you're getting into - tactics needs an index, and a loving caress. I'll do it for you.
Dashofpepper wrote:
It isn't newbies making stupid comments that are the problem, it is STUPID people making stupid comments, posts, and useless threads that are the problem.
What do you consider a stupid post or useless thread? It it just a post that repeats earlier questions...or something else? I ask, not out of malice...but because 'stupid' is subjective and unique to each person.
A useless thread? How about THIS ONE to lead the charge? Which Primarch has the most sexual prowess? That needs to go into the not-yet-made junk section of the forums.
I won't continue - that's all just from the top of the page from General Discussion.
I would not want that in Background and am not into censoring thread topics. I like the idea of 40K: OT, or 40K Watercooler for these. Thats not a bad idea actually.
Ketara wrote:I've been about on Dakka Dakka for about two years now(I spent a few months lurking before taking the plunge). Dakka welcomed me in with open arms, and as I got to know the various forum personalities and sections, I derived greater and greater enjoyment from the site. I attempted to repay this by commenting regularly and consisting on the matter of Dark Eldar tactics (as the army I've played regularly, and in many tournaments). Many interesting discussions resulted from this, mainly with clthomps, and Thor, and in those discussions were born most of the DE tactics used in 5th Edition to this day. I had several interesting and well structured debates on fluff with the likes of Manchu, and genuinely enjoyed being a regular contributor.
But over time, I just...burned out I guess. I got bored of having to repeat the exact same tactics advice once a week to every newbie. I got bored of seeing the same old arguments hashed out every other thread in OT. A few months back, I tried to re-engage with these areas of the forum, but to an extent, I find Dash is right. There are so many meaningless threads in there clogging up the space, and I simply don't have the motivation any more to sift through the debris and 4chan to get to the gold. Most of the people who I used to engage with also seem to have stopped posting.
I wasn't around during the 'good old days of yore', but I have noticed in my brief few years here, that in my opinion, the quality of the tactics and fluff sections has seriously gone downhill. I simply don't have the inclination to try and bring the quality back up myself, as I have enough on my plate in real life. I got given moderation in one area of the forum as a result of kicking up a stink about improvement, the last thing I need is a second one!
+1 and QFT. The "glory days" aren't a reference to pre-Yakface or anything; just of 2-3 years ago.
Manchu wrote:It would probably take a dedicated tactics moderator to cross-reference and then lock the duplicate threads. And, again, a better search function would be key to that endeavor. But while we wait, I would suggest that the mods consider a new rule. Something like "the title of your thread should reflect its content." I have noticed lately (although I am sure it has gone on forever) that many thread titles are ambiguous to say the least. Titles that are more representative of their content will be better for mods to watch for needless duplicates as well as for users looking for answers/looking to give answers.
Yes that would be good. reports would be helpful in that with that notation.
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Dashofpepper wrote:That needs to go into the not-yet-made junk section of the forums.
= 40k Background or OT, take your pick. When I see this stuff, I usually employ the yellow triangle.
I'd prefer a 40K ramblings or something. As the driver for starting the background forum, the idea was around discussions of background itself.
Frazz, that's 90% of Background as it is. Might as well retitle Background as "Watercooler" and make a new fluff board.
Looks like my suggestion and Dash's are pretty much the same. I think he'd do a good job. Thor665 is another candidate but I doubt he has the time. "Tactics Mod" could be the title, yeah?
Frazzled wrote: 40K Watercooler for these. Thats not a bad idea actually.
PERFECT! Dakka needs a 40k Watercooler. Hang out at the watercooler to discuss the sexual prowess of your primarch. Or whether a land raider would fit into your garage. Or what kind of pet a Tzeentch daemon would make. Or whether a Space marine could beat the Master Chief in a fist fight. Or whether Alpharius can be likened to team Edward. Etc.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I have had several request for moderation ignored. They have been as you say more contentious issues, Manchu.
I think has been no indication that anyone has actually seen the flagging. Understandably the mods may see things differently. I would settle for acknowledgement of that.
Appreciate that the mods have lives beyond Dakka, but it might help if they could post a gentle reminder of prescence in such cases.
Just a thought.
Ayah we see the reports, but you're not a party to PMs. Although a response is not a bad thing. Good point.
I don't think the use of the report button needs to entail a default response to the reporting user. If anything, that would just slow down moderation--and give mods a disincentive to respond. If someone has that big of a problem, they can PM a mod as well as use the report button (hopefully not in that order).
Dashofpepper wrote:Step #0: Make DoP the Tactics Moderator. I will regulate.
But that's what everyone thinks. And whoever would be moderating it, things would be viewed as being unfair.
I really think the platform for non-open-discussion tactics is a blog, not something like Dakka. Here, people can post what they want, even if they're new to the game- and if it's been covered, you just point 'em to a sticky/article.
Heck, I'm guilty of this- I started a thread in N&R titled something like "NEW SQUATS!!1?" (Okay, not quite that bad) linking to what turned out to be that year's white dwarf model. Whoops .
People pointed me to the light, and that was that... no deleting/editing/moving of the thread required... self-moderation happened, which imho, is better and is what people seem to talk about when they refer to the "good old days". Take care of stuff yourself where possible, and if the mods chip in, all the better
I've heard Dakka spoken about bad... but most of the complaints come from the "You Make Da Call" section and the contentiousness and righteous indignation that raises it's ugly head there. Granted, I'm not the tournament whore some of these guys are so I don't get around as much but do make it to Tennessee, South Carolina, and Florida on occasion in addition to Georgia.
True, there's some trash threads. I guess if they are in the right place they are OK. Like anything else in a free society, you are free to move along and look at something else (which is exactly what I did with that particular "Which Primarch is the studliest" thread).
As for the mods, while I don't see eye to eye with all of them they are as a rule pretty even-keeled and don't wield the mod-hammer near as much as they could. But then again, this is Dakka Dakka and we all know it's a little like the Old West. As a whole I rather like the Mod presence here the way it is. They could do a little better job of weeding out the junk but last I checked usually Mod status isn't a paying position...
All in all Dakka is a great place to come hang. Even the OT forum and it's bed wetting Socialists (hugs and kisses... you know who you are). Long live Dakka!
1. Don't support the polls. They are evil and unholy and repetitive and ultimately lead nowhere - causing their unholy rebirth to continue to plague our forums.
Correct, it will sink stuff and bumping within 24 hours is not possible so junk disappears if people dont care or reply. If something is truly banal use the mod alert button as we have a 'banality button' to punish pointless posts which has an 85% success rate in preventing repeat offenders.
2. Don't be a bystander. When someone creates a topic and posts an illiterate collection of words, ask them to be considerate of everyone else on the internet. Ask them to carefully consider their words and try expressing them in a manner others can understand.
Can be ok but it is better to use the mod alert button to indicate crap grammar/spelling as it avoids the whole debate about why you need to type properly springing up again and again, and we have a complicated, automated punishment system in place for this which also explains in great detail why spelling/grammar is important. Posting in their threads just bumps it up.
3. Link, Bookmark, and paste repetitive threads! When someone creates a thread to discuss or question something already under discussion, or that has recently been discussed, link the old thread into the new with a note "OP, there is an identical thread here you can discuss this at" and then report the thread as a duplicate. It will get locked/removed - and that's one less piece of clutter!
4. Enforce Rule #1: A lot of threads spin out of control because of how people are treat each other and talking to each other in a thread. Don't wait for one party to become offended enough to report it, hit the report button and get it back on track early!
Yes do these too but dont be overzealous if significant new information/releases have changed the possible responses.
5. Send a PM to Legoburner/Yakface: Dakka has an offtopic board, and it has a "Dakka Poll" section....it needs a "Gaming Polls" section, or to rename Dakka Poll as a gaming poll section, and have this be the place for all of those "What's the best unit in 40k" arguments to go to. Just because a post has words doesn't mean it contains content, as I'm sure someone will show up to point out this thread for shortly.
Never PM us about dakka's structure, use the nuts and bolts forum instead so that debate can occur once and we dont waste time repeating ourselves. Gaming polls is probably too broad a topic for a dedicated forum, it would need more thought to be effective.
All the things you suggest help out but are quite boring and tedious to do, with the only reward your ability to know you made a tiny difference. Welcome to the first step into the world of the moderator.
There is always a rash of what might be characterised as juvenile polls and threads in the summer holiday season.
This is very correct and should be reaching the end now, just in time for 2 months of newbie students at university/college to post inane stuff too. Dealing with it and the flood of new posters who dont read the rules properly is unavoidable without losing lots of good new posters as well.
Some topics will always be rehashed after a certain amount of time.
True but not always bad - new users will not have seen the older threads, older threads might be slightly outdated or appeal to a different age group of people getting into wargaming. Dakka's poor search engine is a factor here as it is hard to find older threads so that will clean things up a bit when it is improved. Usually though this just means you have been on the forum a lot and it is something that affects all forums. The only 'cure' is oppressive moderation or some of the things suggested by DoP. In a way it is healthy to have these as they show the community continues to grow and get new users instead of stagnation and death.
Part of the problem is that the attitude from the Off-Topic forum is seeping into the useful parts of the forum
Not true, and to a point this can be proved with statistical analysis available to me. The off topic forum is markedly improved in attitude from 6-9 months ago and is one of the forums I lurk the most on dakka.
The other part of the problem, noted by Polonius, is that the administration seems indifferent to promoting quality content.
This is true but it is lack of time over indifference. I am working on a technical solution to this (after the search engine reworking) but nothing would beat a few dedicated users going through the forum and managing a blog style front end to our better content. Such a thing is thankless and tedious though and would have a high burn out rate so we have not asked for volunteers for such a thing.
Articles, well, I gave up on them with my article on Chaos Sorcerers because an illiterate chump kept on screwing it up with his inability to spell, or indeed write at all. Why bother when most of the articles are trash, and whatever you write will be trashed by the next teenager accessing Dakka Dakka without adult supervision?
Here is the history for your article: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Special:History?topic=How_to_Equip_your_Chaos_sorcerer The issues you describe are endemic to wikis. They gradually improve over time as the number of legitimate users tends to outnumber the number of trolls. People who perform abusive edits are banned from dakka (including by IP address). You can see even after you have given up the article continues to improve and will continue to improve. The edits from that user were of an unusually poor quality and should have been picked up, but article moderation is extremely tedious and time consuming so mods tend to stick to the areas that they know the best. Overall the articles still need more work but there is some great content in there and most importantly, it sticks around as long as it is useful instead of dropping off to a forgotten forum page.
Haha, I put a similar post up about a year ago.
Dakka has changed a LOT.
Back when I came on board, you didn't speak up unless you had something intelligent to say. That was because you got flamed like crazy for saying dumb gak.
That has never really been true on dakka, it is observer bias more than anything. Look back through any old thread lists and you'll see how much crap there was back then. The only real differences between then and now are that you are older and wiser and have read a lot of stuff on most topics already, we have a much higher rate of posting so you have to deal with more crap at once (as well as more good stuff at once), and back in the very early days there was either no moderation or very little moderation due to lack of interest in a topic or lack of time/capacity on the part of the owner/moderators.
Thats because self moderation is no longer tolerated. Posters are not allowed to call BS on another poster here. As you noted, say something worthwhile or GFTO.
Nowadays even moderators are trolls, so there you have it.
Self moderation is fine so long as you are fairly polite. If you cant be polite you can self moderate with the mod alert button. You always whine a lot in these sorts of threads without ever offering anything constructive, you stay and post, but you've not seemed to like dakka in many years. If you feel so hard done by you are always free to leave or find a different forum. I'm not sure why you still post, I would be eager to hear your positive thoughts on dakka as well for a change as I find it quite mind boggling?
The MODs are like ninjas too, they delete posts in stealth mode. Trying to encourage a healthy, friendly environment is one thing, but protecting the idiots at the expense of the site is only going to be detrimental in the long run. What made Dakka unique was the fact that you got the straight dope on playing well. No one tried to candy coat anything. You were expected to be an adult about giving and taking criticism. Now everyone's feelings are involved and the quality of the content has greatly suffered, IMO.
The 'stealth' stuff is fairly necessary or every mod action devolves into meta-crap and explanations that means nothing gets done. We ban idiots at a rapid rate and the vast, vast majority of users are mostly sorted out after one or two moderator warnings. Warnings are sent at a rate of around 6 per day if I remember correctly. For the past 3 years at least, politeness has always been an enforced rule, usually just from moderator alerts though.
Would be interesting to note the increase of population since the time you're talking about Dash. I suspect it's the whole 'victim of it's own success' problem.
Enjoy this graph. We get more posts per day than any other wargaming forum, including warseer and more gallery images per day than anywhere else including coolminiornot.
This is posts per day:
Traffic is significantly higher (multiple orders of magnitude) though I wont include that in graph form as it is heavily biased by google's changing search algorithms.
We get 40-90 new users every single day who we need to understand the rules and culture before posting.
One feature I liked on another forum was when people reported a post, the post would have a little icon in the corner so that everyone could see that it had been reported for something. I don't know if this public style of post report status would help people see what is and is not acceptable?
This is a good idea but the structure of the database would make it too inefficient to implement right now. We are moving servers in the nearish future which will give more capacity and I'll be able to work on it more then.
Flagging it as reported won't let you know what the moderators' ultimate judgment on the post was though, and that would be the true benchmark for unacceptability.
I agree this is something that needs to be more transparent, but implementing it in a nice way without vastly increasing moderator workload is quite complex.
As a rule, I agree with Reecius about Dakka: the tactics and army list sections have gone to complete hell, but there's a lot of good discussions to be had.
Tactics and army lists are both a shadow of what they were due to the S:N ratio and I'm open to technical suggestions to improve them. They've always been a bit iffy thanks to the heavy posters like Stelek and Gwar, it is really just the pre-Stelek time I remember being especially good.
Yeah, Yak has said that he thinks the atmosphere is much better here now than before.
Us Old Timers just like the way things were, even if it did get downright hostile.
I think it comes down to what sections you read. Historical, N&R, offtopic, P&M blogs and P&M tutorials are my favourite areas and all are better now than any time in the past (except P&M blogs which has been consistently enjoyable for me). If you read YMDC, army lists and tactics, they are all volatile areas that will wear you down and the higher post rate will just get you there faster I think.
Yeah, they need to allow the gloves to come off in the tactics section a bit more. I guess if Dakka is purely a moneymaking venture now, then it is what it is.
Dakka has never been about the money and never will. Talking to BrotherArgos at B&C makes me feel bad if I even think about it Yak and I have never taken a cent/penny from dakka and all income is reinvested into ths site (for example we now have 2 servers, one running a dedicated database backup now so hardware failure in the primary server will mean no lost posts or data). We also need to switch to a new main server in the near future that will be 50% more expensive than our current main server.
The discussion is usually pretty warm in there too. On most of Dakka, really. I don't think I see the excessive moderation you guys are describing.
That is because most (not all) of the people complaining (unlike yourself) have broken the rules at some point and been punished accordingly. 643 users have been punished significantly enough for it to go on their permanent record here (excluding spammer insta-bans), with 5615 moderator comments made about them. Out of 33486 users and 1.9M posts, that is a pretty insignificant rate.
One thing to consider is the demographic of the new posters. When Seer went down and users started migrating to other forums, I'm sure the age of the average Dakka poster dropped (No stats, just a gut hunch here...which could be wrong). I think age is important to remember.
Average active dakka age is 2 years younger than it was 3 years ago (I forget the exact figures, I think it was 26 and now it is 24, there is an old thread with the original average and it was about 6 months ago I last checked but did not post). I actively focus on getting US users above UK, despite being a Londoner as there are so many young kids into 40k here it would increase the S:N ratio even more. Obviously we have loads of great young ones too, but on average they are a lower quality member and as dakka has grown we have not been able to avoid them signing up.
Regarding the duplication of threads, I always thought that the article system was wasted. It could have been used to collate and archive thread data, such as common rules disputes and questions and common tactics and whatnot, but it's really an invisible part of the site.
This was the original intention of the articles system, but nobody wanted to put in the effort. It would still be easy to switch it over to doing this without much work, but gathering and reformatting is very dull and hard to automate.
I think a good point has been raised - Dakka needs moderators of content. Killkrazy is trolling with mocking replicas of this thread here in Dakka discussion, which presents an example for other posters do to the same, leaving us 3-4 spam posts sprouting up on Dakka discussion; all of which are probably egregious violations of rule #1, but since a moderator started it...its ok? Several other moderators have their....own interesting personalities here, and all moderation is geared towards behaviour with no focus on content.
Remember that moderators and admins put in thousands of hours of work to make dakka suck a bit less, so threads complaining about things are often taken a bit more personally than intended. Moderator cheekiness is tolerated to a point to allow them to blow off steam to prevent burnout. Mods have been punished in the past for going too far though generally not publicly to avoid vultures coming in for the kill.
Kinda ironic that the owner is telling the proles to fix his income source, until you realize what the money trail looks like. Oh, I admit that this place is Yak's and his solely; he bought it. I am not going to sit here and say it should be this, that, or the other. It's not my place. I am a prole here, just like everyone of you. However, if I DO post here, it's going to be with my eyes wide open to what this place is and what it exists for. And it's not to be the best 40k forum on the net.
It is not yak's forum, it is mine and his, we have a 50/50 ownership arrangement. As before, no money has ever been taken out of dakka and simply goes into a dedicated dakka corporate bank account to be used to pay for things like servers, artwork, bandwidth, etc. The only money to ever go out was to repay the initial auction cost to yak. We have a decent stockpile that will allow us to operate for a year or so with no income but costs are always increasing as we get bigger. This has and will always be a hobby website above all else. Running dakka is my primary hobby and we have turned down plenty of multi-thousand dollar sponsorship or buyout offers because of that.
As for what it exists for, our first purpose was to make it suck less (the software used to be horrific). The next was to make it big enough to have plenty of fresh content every day. Then we wanted the best wargaming gallery in the world. Then we were victims of our own success so we had to worry about maintaning stability, and now our objective is increasing quality but not traffic or income.
Treesong- Good point, I think that's why "gallery votes" is listed above post count (as incentive) but unfortunately not many have taken advantage of that (myself included). Would be great to talk about how to increase the vote-to-view ratio (although it does look like it's similar to the lurk-to-post ratio in the rest of the forum, depending on the topic, I think?)
Without forcing people to vote (increasing the dodgy vote quantity) there is very little that can be done. I had not thought about it before, but yes, the rate is almost the same as lurker to post, good spot!
To those I have not replied to, either they have been covered elsewhere or I am getting tired, been typing this for well over an hour and I want to go play dead rising 2.
To summarise:
What has changed:
- Much bigger - the biggest of all wargaming sites by many metrics now.
- More heavily moderated
- S:N ratio is worse due to higher posting rate. Not hugely worse as it is mostly in the eye of the beholder, but even a small increase appears much worse due to the posting rate.
What is not so significant:
- A minority of vocal users here and on other sites who have observer bias or who are unhappy with the inevitable changes a forum goes through over time.
- The self-replicating/reinforcing hate and misery that comes from these sorts of threads popping up from time to time.
- People thinking they find patterns in traffic, posting style or similar where there simply are none beyond natural changes or increased visibilty due to additional traffic
- Moderation trolling - the moderators are almost all the oldest users of dakka. The halycon days people recall are from a time well after most of our mods started using dakka. The stuff you hate from them is literally what dakka used to be like.
- All users of all forums discussing topics that repeat will get burned out. This will change your opinion of given forums regardless of change in quality.
'Solutions'
- Aggressive moderation: Discourages new users from posting and slows posting rate but gives the impression of higher overall quality due to higher S:N ratio. Users who would start poorly but improve, or users who would provide encouraging feedback are usually put off by this.
- Stalinist purge of the unhappy or trollish: Improves overall happiness of the site but causes controversy and makes a whole new generation of people who say 'I remember when so and so used to post here, back when it was much better' and the cycle begins again.
- Highlight more of the good content in an easy to find location. A technical solution to this is in the planning stages and has been for a while, but a set of human editors would be the best option. Yak and I have discussed 'I like this thread' buttons to help content float or sink more easily and they will get implemented at some point.
- Better search engine and/or archiving of repeating threads.
Dashofpepper wrote:
It isn't newbies making stupid comments that are the problem, it is STUPID people making stupid comments, posts, and useless threads that are the problem.
What do you consider a stupid post or useless thread? It it just a post that repeats earlier questions...or something else? I ask, not out of malice...but because 'stupid' is subjective and unique to each person.
A useless thread? How about THIS ONE to lead the charge? Which Primarch has the most sexual prowess? That needs to go into the not-yet-made junk section of the forums.
Well, I suppose we approach those style of threads differently. The sexual prowess thread just struck me as someone having a go at the 40k background in a tongue in cheek manner...and honestly it seemed like the guys in the thread were having a good time with it. That kind of stuff just makes me grin over my coffee...not rage. As to the location of the thread (Background v. OT)...considering the options available I think 40k General Discussion was as good as any place. Maybe if they made a '40k Joke/Having a go at it' forum...
Regarding the Spartans v. Marines thread....instead of seeing the poster as someone whom maliciously logged on to ruin your Dakka experience, try seeing the innocence in the situation. It's likely a young kid trying to be funny and fit in an online community. If I'm painting an iris on one of my bald and screaming marines...and my son runs into the room to see my model, bumps my table and makes my marine have Sloth eyes from Goonies...I don't think my son is going out of his way to ruin my painting experience. He's just doing what kids do...
Frazzled wrote:Ayah we see the reports, but you're not a party to PMs. Although a response is not a bad thing. Good point.
I am not sure which thread I posted it in, but the boards which I used to post in let users see when a post had already been flagged with an icon in the corner. When the post had been investigated, the icon changed to let people know that a mod had taken a look at it and decided one way or the other on the matter.
Something akin to this would let people see a) what people see as being report-worthy b) that someone else has already reported a post so mods don't get flooded with alerts from a single post and c) that the issue has been resolved or is waiting to be sorted out.
As it is, (as far as I am aware) this board has no means of letting users know (other than a PM or post) when someone else has reported a post, or if a mod has looked into it.
Perhaps some kind of "your post [link] has been reported to the mod team" auto-pm might also encourage people to keep an eye on what they are posting? (or would that just encourage them do you think?).
Frazzled wrote:
-Take Frazzled out, but watch out as he takes half of Dakka with him!
What else?
Keep Frazzled. You sent me my first warning on the site, I printed it off and hung it on my wall. If the mods were the ABC warriors, you'd be Blackblood.
Seriously, I like the variety in the range of moderators, it enables them to encompass things.
Personally, I'm not sold on the idea of a 'Tactics Mod'. Why? I agree that something could be done about this. I'm just not sure the creation of an entire new moderation branch is necessary. Allow me to go into a spot more detail.
As things currently stand we have 4 layers of moderation. We have the administrators, who don't take a hand in the day to day dealings. We have the moderators, whose forte is the more mundane warnings, deletings, etc. We have the article Mods, who ensure that the galleries and articles are kept squeaky clean. And finally, you have the more recent Swap Shop Mods, who maintain law and order in that specific part of the forum.
Now just to draw on my own experience here, when the Swap Shop Mods were created, the Swap Shop was pretty much an unregulated Wild West. When we came into existence, our role was fairly unclear. We were given pretty much carte blanche within a small framework of rules laid out by Yak, and were left to our own devices.
However, it took about six months whilst we tested out ideas, and figured out exactly what we were actually meant to be doing. I think that a number of the birthing problems were a result of the slight knee jerk reaction of appointing an entire branch of a moderating team, without a clear purpose of exactly how we were going to accomplish our aim, or even what that aim was outside of a generality! Even now, it's an evolving thing, with a slight revamp in the works(watch this space!).
If the exact same thing is done again, with a whole new mod branch established with no clear defining purpose and guidelines, I simply don't see this being successful. Unlike the Swapshop, which had a pretty much clearly delineated goal in sight (a smoother safer trading place), tactics and army lists is a far more subjective subject. As such, I forsee problems, in that whoever the tatics mods would be, would have no real remit to claim that something is good or bad beyond their own personal opinions, and that could be heavily influenced by their own bias.
I don't know. It could work, but I would personally need to hear things broken down into exactly how things were going to work, what role exactly the tactics mods had, and so on. Far more detail, and far more planning, otherwise I see it ending in disaster.
Wow a lot of stuff to read
seem to be some interesting thoughts
so apologies for skipping
am a white rabbit and late
Manchu
I have a certain sympathy for what you are sayinh
if you contact a Mod they will tell you to hit the panic button.
Again they will be plagued by PMs (potentially) It's sort of reassuring at least to know they are seen Fraz even if one doesn't get a result from it
Frazzled wrote:Ayah we see the reports, but you're not a party to PMs. Although a response is not a bad thing. Good point.
I am not sure which thread I posted it in, but the boards which I used to post in let users see when a post had already been flagged with an icon in the corner. When the post had been investigated, the icon changed to let people know that a mod had taken a look at it and decided one way or the other on the matter.
Something akin to this would let people see a) what people see as being report-worthy b) that someone else has already reported a post so mods don't get flooded with alerts from a single post and c) that the issue has been resolved or is waiting to be sorted out.
As it is, (as far as I am aware) this board has no means of letting users know (other than a PM or post) when someone else has reported a post, or if a mod has looked into it.
Perhaps some kind of "your post [link] has been reported to the mod team" auto-pm might also encourage people to keep an eye on what they are posting? (or would that just encourage them do you think?).
I like this too. Not sure if doable technically. Will add to list.
I joined about a year ago. I was a relatively new to 40k at the time, so my perception may be somewhat clouded, however, one thing I do know for sure is that the volume of posts that have been like this have radically increased in that period of time: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/317758.page#1941695
Also, I feel like there is a large number of copypaste lists in the army lists section such that when I see a list in there that has an interestingly titled subject, I actually hesitate to click on it. I've not visited the army lists in quite a while for fear of staring at yet another list with a CCS with a melta, a sniper rife, a lascannon and carapace armor, formatted horribly, and with the point values wrong. It just gets to the point where I see something like that and rather than help, I ignore it because it's just easier that way.
Tactics is a mess for reasons already mentioned.
Fluff seldom interests me because of the fact that half the time it's "ZOMG MY PRIMARCH IS THE BEST!" and the other half the time it's just arguing codex fluff vs BL fluff.
General Discussion: "What would you...?"
Of course, complaining about stuff and offering solutions to actually fix stuff are two completely separate things. I realize that. Something I might suggest is perhaps adding the ability to ignore complete threads?
What are the increments on the "y" axis of that graph, Lego? I can see the usage is many times what it was, but I'm curious of the exact number
Well "y" starts at 0 for one thing I prefer some merkyness in the publicly released figures so that I can give estimates without being nit-picked based on past graphs I've posted.
Each forum recognizes a different aspect of the game. Further, each forum also has a different function such as criticisms for new play lists, ect.
Now I don't know if we need to go that indepth into WH40k and other games, but something to take away is to subdivide the tactics forum as we have done for army lists and tactics already. Makes it easier to place things in a more structured way.
Frazzled wrote:-Need a 40K Discussions: watercooler, or modify Background to Background and Watercooler discussions. Move more mundane posts to this directory.
This one is a bit personal as I spent a lot of time there but I don't think background can be "fixed" into something that most adults would find worthwhile. It's the play pen of DakkaDakka. I think the specifically-40k junk ("Sanguinius's favorite mascara brand?," etc) should be directed here.
-A Tactics Mod or guru (be careful what you wish for on that one.)
One thing should be clear from the start: tactics mod does not equal tactcis guru. Asto Ketara's point about this "layer of modding" needing a specific mandate, I think DoP's post is a great blueprint for it. I would again suggest him as a candidate for the position, as well as users like Ailaros and Thor665.
-Take Frazzled out, but watch out as he takes half of Dakka with him!
As long as there is OT, there is a need for Frazzled. The question for you is, if OT was jettisoned would you want to stay on?
Frazzled wrote:-Need a 40K Discussions: watercooler, or modify Background to Background and Watercooler discussions. Move more mundane posts to this directory.
This one is a bit personal as I spent a lot of time there but I don't think background can be "fixed" into something that most adults would find worthwhile. It's the play pen of DakkaDakka. I think the specifically-40k junk ("Sanguinius's favorite mascara brand?," etc) should be directed here.
***I am uncertain there fr the same reasons, but I could see Background and watercooler somewhat fitting.
-A Tactics Mod or guru (be careful what you wish for on that one.)
One thing should be clear from the start: tactics mod does not equal tactcis guru. Asto Ketara's point about this "layer of modding" needing a specific mandate, I think DoP's post is a great blueprint for it. I would again suggest him as a candidate for the position, as well as users like Ailaros and Thor665.
***Yep.
-Take Frazzled out, but watch out as he takes half of Dakka with him!
As long as there is OT, there is a need for Frazzled. The question for you is, if OT was jettisoned would you want to stay on?
***Its a valid question. Its ironical as I have espoused ending it in the past.
Hulksmash and I were just talking about mod vs. guru. I'm not sure I could be convinced that anyone has the authority to call themselves a "tactics guru." But it doesn't take a guru to index a valuable discussion for future reference to other posters.
I'm just envisioning a giant sticky thread at the top of the tactics forum that instructs users HOW to post in the tactics section in the first part. Over time, compliance would seep in. The second part would be a continually growing index of links to various tactical articles and discussions, such that EVERY poster's first stop in the tactics section is the index to see if there is already a thread up for what they wish to talk about. CTRL+F and a search for a keyword that you're looking for.
Dashofpepper wrote:
I'm just envisioning a giant sticky thread at the top of the tactics forum that instructs users HOW to post in the tactics section in the first part. Over time, compliance would seep in.
To be frank, I'd call this wishful thinking. The type of people who create the dross you're against don't read stickies. I can tell you from my own experience in that swap shop that people prefer to ignore stickies, and go ahead and do what they like anyway. Compliance doesn't 'seep in', it has to be beaten in. With a stick.
legoburner wrote:Well "y" starts at 0 for one thing I prefer some merkyness in the publicly released figures so that I can give estimates without being nit-picked based on past graphs I've posted.
Aha! I should've known it was on purpose. Good call
Dashofpepper wrote:
I'm just envisioning a giant sticky thread at the top of the tactics forum that instructs users HOW to post in the tactics section in the first part.
How about a template that has to be used by the OP in a tactics thread?
I think that a good part of the modding work would be posting this message:
This subject is already being discussed in url= link]this thread[/url]. If you cannot find the information you after posting in that thread, try posting a thread with a more specific title. Remember to always check the Tactics Board Sticky for advice on how to title your thread and to see if the topic you want to know about is already being discussed. Thanks!
And then *thread lock*.
Reform in the tactics board will entail a lot of cross-referencing and research. Like with any project, the heavy lifting is in the beginning. I'll volunteer to help sort through the tactics stuff although I don't think I know enough about 40k tactics to be a potential tactics mod.
The sticky would have to be introduced on the end of a beat stick, no doubt. Hence the "form post" I suggested accompanied by thread lock. If this was done pretty harshly for a few weeks, I think the sticky might garner some respect. If it was a GT winner doing it, that might help, too.
@ Legoburner (wasn't brave enough to quote then edit your monster post)
"Highlight more of the good content in an easy to find location. A technical solution to this is in the planning stages and has been for a while, but a set of human editors would be the best option. Yak and I have discussed 'I like this thread' buttons to help content float or sink more easily and they will get implemented at some point."
I am in favor of this, something similar to the "popular forum posts" on the front page. Only rotate the threads on display so its not as stagnant as the "popular forum posts" section.
I completely agree with what most people are proposing here.
Sure, I'm a newbie on the boards by some standards... but hell, I've received more help from these boards than any other. I rarely get flamed for my ideals, though there are a few egomaniacs here. And i agree wholeheartedly that digging through the "crap" is an all too common occurrence; one in ten threads are great.
Dakkadakka is great for new and experienced gamers alike. Dash helped me a lot when I was trying out dark eldar a while back, and I helped him with modeling some disintigrators. Theres something for everyone. I just think that the "filth" (such an ugly word tho) could be controlled a little more.
Zid wrote:I completely agree with what most people are proposing here.
Sure, I'm a newbie on the boards by some standards... but hell, I've received more help from these boards than any other. I rarely get flamed for my ideals, though there are a few egomaniacs here. And i agree wholeheartedly that digging through the "crap" is an all too common occurrence; one in ten threads are great.
Dakkadakka is great for new and experienced gamers alike. Dash helped me a lot when I was trying out dark eldar a while back, and I helped him with modeling some disintigrators. Theres something for everyone. I just think that the "filth" (such an ugly word tho) could be controlled a little more.
Don't honestly have much more to say than that.
Here's the rub though,
(This is purely an example) there are many posters who think DoP's posts fall into that filth category, and we've had lots of PMs etc. to get rid of DoP. Others like DoP.
This goes back to the immortal Mauleed. For every person who likes their posts, there is another who think's every statement by that poster just defiles Dakka. Its an issue.
There are even people who strangely have an issue with me, although secretly we all know they are really just chihuahas jealous of the awesome power that is Team Weinie.
Zid wrote:I completely agree with what most people are proposing here.
Sure, I'm a newbie on the boards by some standards... but hell, I've received more help from these boards than any other. I rarely get flamed for my ideals, though there are a few egomaniacs here. And i agree wholeheartedly that digging through the "crap" is an all too common occurrence; one in ten threads are great.
Dakkadakka is great for new and experienced gamers alike. Dash helped me a lot when I was trying out dark eldar a while back, and I helped him with modeling some disintigrators. Theres something for everyone. I just think that the "filth" (such an ugly word tho) could be controlled a little more.
Don't honestly have much more to say than that.
Here's the rub though,
(This is purely an example) there are many posters who think DoP's posts fall into that filth category, and we've had lots of PMs etc. to get rid of DoP. Others like DoP.
This goes back to the immortal Mauleed. For every person who likes their posts, there is another who think's every statement by that poster just defiles Dakka. Its an issue.
There are even people who strangely have an issue with me, although secretly we all know they are really just chihuahas jealous of the awesome power that is Team Weinie.
And all of those posts (including my real life batrep) could get dumped into a "40k watercooler" area and not bother anywhere else.
Its been mentioned several times here that different people say Too much moderation or not enough moderation.....its more a case of "different" moderation being needed, not more moderation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
and we've had lots of PMs etc. to get rid of DoP.
Well, tell them to stop causing trouble with me then. I never start a fight, but when someone tries dragging my name through the mud, I defend myself.
1965, considered by some to be Year Zero for the musical style called Rock. 'My Generation' by the band The Who is creditted with being the first TRUE Rock song.
1970, Black Sabbath 'creates' Heavy Metal.
During this period of growth Rock music was growing slowly becoming harder and louder. It was also still considered in the 'fringe', enjoyed by small groups of like minded people. It continued to grow slowly while more mainstream "pop" music continued to be played over most radio stations.
Then came the 80's. "Metal" was everywhere, its popularity exploding into the mainstream. Then it quickly became as corporate and staid as "pop". It lost its lustre and identity.
It became just like every other form of commercial rock... boring.
What does this music history lesson have to do with the discussion at hand? That depends on how you look at things.
This forum is a lot like Rock and Metal in particular. Some people see it as becoming much like other forums that have become lost or just vanished, crap, full of idiots and 'me too-ers'. In someones words... boring and useless.
But, At its heart are those that come here to discuss the games we play, whether it be Fantasy, 40k, War of the rings, Battletech, Halo, Politics, Religion, Frazzled baiting, whatever.... It is all about the GAMES at the end of the day, (mine usually ending when others would normally begin).
Change comes when people see the need to create it. Instead of pouting over what this forum (or Rock and metal for that matter) has become, Why not HELP impliment some of the changes you feel need to be made.
Rock and Metal survived the explosive 80's. With some dedicated calm direction, Dakka can survive these growing pains.
*Bows and exits-stage left..... no, the other left.*
helgrenze wrote:1965, considered by some to be Year Zero for the musical style called Rock. 'My Generation' by the band The Who is creditted with being the first TRUE Rock song.
1970, Black Sabbath 'creates' Heavy Metal.
During this period of growth Rock music was growing slowly becoming harder and louder. It was also still considered in the 'fringe', enjoyed by small groups of like minded people. It continued to grow slowly while more mainstream "pop" music continued to be played over most radio stations.
Then came the 80's. "Metal" was everywhere, its popularity exploding into the mainstream. Then it quickly became as corporate and staid as "pop". It lost its lustre and identity.
It became just like every other form of commercial rock... boring.
What does this music history lesson have to do with the discussion at hand? That depends on how you look at things.
This forum is a lot like Rock and Metal in particular. Some people see it as becoming much like other forums that have become lost or just vanished, crap, full of idiots and 'me too-ers'. In someones words... boring and useless.
But, At its heart are those that come here to discuss the games we play, whether it be Fantasy, 40k, War of the rings, Battletech, Halo, Politics, Religion, Frazzled baiting, whatever.... It is all about the GAMES at the end of the day, (mine usually ending when others would normally begin).
Change comes when people see the need to create it. Instead of pouting over what this forum (or Rock and metal for that matter) has become, Why not HELP impliment some of the changes you feel need to be made.
Rock and Metal survived the explosive 80's. With some dedicated calm direction, Dakka can survive these growing pains.
*Bows and exits-stage left..... no, the other left.*
Change comes when people see the need to create it. Instead of pouting over what this forum (or Rock and metal for that matter) has become, Why not HELP impliment some of the changes you feel need to be made.
Rock and Metal survived the explosive 80's. With some dedicated calm direction, Dakka can survive these growing pains.
*Bows and exits-stage left..... no, the other left.*
We're trying. THat's what this thread and the suggestions in it are for. Quite a few of us have submitted astronomical amounts of content to the website in one form or another. At the point where submitting content and being helpful is no longer rewarding because of the S:N ratio and how difficult it is to steer people towards the answers they seek, or to even find their questions amidst the drivel of whether Fulgrim used the blue pill to keep up with his lusts or not.....then it is time to stop trying to implement change by bringing content and start discussing how content can better be filtered.
I have only been here a few months so I dont have much feel on the problems you mention. I like this forums because I have been able to get a lot of good advise on it and I continue to use it to work on my lists ( I am also new to the game)
A huge issue I have with the forums is the failure of the search function. If I search for a topic I get a string of 50 results of which the first 45 are all in the same thread. (i exaggerate but only slightly). This leads to topics being repeated over and over. Especially in the tactics thread and YMDC. The search function does not have a human factor and so doesn't cause controversies where opinions differ so it can be solved without drama.
Another forum I was a longtime member of was relic forums playing DoW. That forum had a good search function...
Manchu wrote:@Helgrenze: There are a lot of pratical suggestions throughout the thread. What do you think of some of them?
Well, I know from reading various posts elsewhere, the Tech stuff has been in the works for some time. A round for Legoburner for that alone.
I agree that creating a 'tactics Mod position would require some definite plans and goals. I also agree that some-one should go through,gather, and catalog the various and occaisionally repeatitive threads there. (NOT volunteering.)
Perhaps a simple fix to the Mod Report system would help people with notification that their alerts have been noticed.... say a simple symbol change to show that the mods have been notified , another to show they are "looking into it"... maybe color based.
Monster Rain wrote:I disagree. I think the moderation staff takes their jobs as overseeing a forum based around the discussion of lil' plastic space manz as seriously as they ought to be.
Ps There are a lot of times I have seen topics that have been repeated and would like to direct the writer to the previous topic but knowing that I wont find it with a search is really discouraging. Edit 'dang fast posters
@ sn0z- from what I understand, the search function fix is at the top of the list for legoburner (the site admin), it's just apparently a very difficult thing to fix based on the code...
Also, usually the newest threads are at the bottom of the page when you search, so scroll down and start up from the bottom...
Dash.. think about my analogy..... How many bands that "hit the charts" in the 80s are still around? The dross falls away even if the only thing wearing on it is time. But also with time some bands improved and started making music people wanted to listen to again.
I presume that is the idea to collect the best bits of info and sticky them.
It is a good idea. There's nothing to stop people doing that now.
It is a lot of work, of course, with little reward, especially as most people don't read stickies.
I know because I have been collecting resources for conversion and modelling into a stickied thread in P&M for months. It doesn't stop people asking the same questions about where you can find heads, guns, plasticard and so on on, again and again.
Of course, anyone can answer one of these queries by pasting the thread location as an answer. Most don't. I don't see that as a serious flaw in the system, just as the way that people are.
I would also query the objectivity of the collation of materials. It is relatively easy to moderate behaviour, the Swap Shop and Gallery because there are pretty clear objective standards. That isn't the case in lists or tactics.
I'm not saying that he should be the sole arbiter of what constitutes tactical advice. I call shenanigans on you, MonsterRain. My proposal is that he and some other well-regarded tactical posters come up with standards (like date limits) about how tactics are discussed--not what is allowed substantively. Some content would be cut out but I doubt it would be the equivalent of turning tactics into any one's personal blog.
Monster Rain wrote:This is a horrible idea. If Dash wants to be the sole arbiter of what constitutes sound tactical advice he should start a blog.
From what I've read that's not really the idea proposed. It's more about collecting and archiving various tactical topics in an easy to find space to make it easier to find the information people are looking for without the need to start a new thread to keep that particular section a bit more tidy.
It shouldn't be edited for what anyone considers sound tactical advice. After all, that's the point of having the forum, to moot what tactical advice and to consider its soundness.
Instead, the forum should be edited for style and presentation. I was in a thread about Chaos Dreadnoughts that's still going and despite another poster's opinion about the rules being both ridiculously and willfully wrong, he made these extremely good diagrams to aid in our discussion of how those rules worked. I think he reading of the rules (and hence his tactical advice) was unsound, but he put effort into expressing his view and I believe the production of these diagrams ultimately made the rules-sideline relevant and useful to the main tactical discussion.
Manchu wrote:I'm not saying that he should be the sole arbiter of what constitutes tactical advice. I call shenanigans on you, MonsterRain. My proposal is that he and some other well-regarded tactical posters come up with standards (like date limits) about how tactics are discussed--not what is allowed substantively. Some content would be cut out but I doubt it would be the equivalent of turning tactics into any one's personal blog.
Shenanigans? On me? You cut me to the quick!
I understand your point a little better though, but I still kind of disagree. I dislike elitism more than uninformed posts.
Manchu wrote:I'm not saying that he should be the sole arbiter of what constitutes tactical advice. I call shenanigans on you, MonsterRain. My proposal is that he and some other well-regarded tactical posters come up with standards (like date limits) about how tactics are discussed--not what is allowed substantively. Some content would be cut out but I doubt it would be the equivalent of turning tactics into any one's personal blog.
Shenanigans? On me? You cut me to the quick!
I understand your point a little better though, but I still kind of disagree.
Monster thats just stupid. Now cut it out...stupid!
Thanks for posting that data, that clarified a lot of points.
@Thread
No one is saying that the tactics section should be edited by one person, that would be too big of a task. Allow posters to regulate the tactics section internally. Allow people to be less than polite when giving advice and that will lead to self moderation.
Look at all the guys we miss. Mauleed, Tigerbaby, Abbadabbadoobaddon, Jester, etc. They were all dicks! But you know what, we all were and that is what gave the place it's character.
I'm not saying we should all be abject pricks to one another, but hell, let the wise old grognards have a bit of a free hand in certain areas, like tactics and lists, and the quality will improve.
Monster Rain wrote:This is a horrible idea. If Dash wants to be the sole arbiter of what constitutes sound tactical advice he should start a blog.
I'm not suggesting that Dash be sole arbiter, just that a system already exists by which people could potentially cut the crap, if they want to put the work in.
In fact there is also the article system, which is already moderated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If people think there is a problem in Tactics (and Lists) and genuinely have some worked out proposals for 'moderation' or quality filtering, let's see them.
At the moment I am still seeing a lot of talk along the lines that if big Internet playas were allowed to slap around the n00bs, things would in some way get better.
As a plan, that doesn't sound efficient or effective, and it wouldn't be allowed anyway, so there's no point proposing it.
So let me reason this out here, Killkrazy, maybe I'm a little slow.
There already is a method available on Dakka for people to express their ideas on tactics and list building with minimal interruption by the unwashed masses? And if there was an issue with their article being trolled or tampered with they could report it to the Moderation Staff and expect action on it?
Would you characterize that as a correct statement?
Monster Rain wrote:So let me reason this out here, Killkrazy, maybe I'm a little slow.
There already is a method available on Dakka for people to express their ideas on tactics and list building with minimal interruption by the unwashed masses? And if there was an issue with their article being trolled or tampered with they could report it to the Moderation Staff and expect action on it?
Would you characterize that as a correct statement?
Yes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think the Like/Dislike option would work.
The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
No, the internet big pimpin playa playas won't smack around the new kids. Allow people to be slightly less civil and you will see quality improve. It is a fact that certain posters here have a wealth of knowledge of the game. They are the resource that will enrich everyone else's experience. Allow them to spread that info and do so with a little character. It does increase friction a bit, but it also vastly increases quality.
If people are a little concerned that they will get called out for saying something dumb, they may fact check a bit and think about what they are going to say before saying it. If everyone has a free hand in saying what ever idiot thing pops into their head and then the mods protect them from back lash, it only encourages idiocy to propagate.
No, the internet big pimpin playa playas won't smack around the new kids. Allow people to be slightly less civil and you will see quality improve. It is a fact that certain posters here have a wealth of knowledge of the game. They are the resource that will enrich everyone else's experience. Allow them to spread that info and do so with a little character. It does increase friction a bit, but it also vastly increases quality.
If people are a little concerned that they will get called out for saying something dumb, they may fact check a bit and think about what they are going to say before saying it. If everyone has a free hand in saying what ever idiot thing pops into their head and then the mods protect them from back lash, it only encourages idiocy to propagate.
I used to really enjoy the Tactics, Army lists & YMDC forums.
Sadly, those who choose rudeness & flaming to get their points across chased me off (and I was more often an observer than contributor).
I absolutely disagree with anyone who says you *need* to be rude sometimes to get your point across. It's simply not true. If you use loaded language (words like slowed, stupid, idiotic, etc.), people will react accordingly. You can tell someone that he is wrong and/or that his advice is bad/horrible without calling it "slowed" or "Stupid."
Talking down to people is a big deal, too. We all know how intelligent you are. When you start using "big words" that the average Joe is unfamiliar with, it becomes apparent (whether it's your intent or not) that you're simply using your words to demonstrate your superiority over the person you're conversing with.
No, the internet big pimpin playa playas won't smack around the new kids. Allow people to be slightly less civil and you will see quality improve. It is a fact that certain posters here have a wealth of knowledge of the game. They are the resource that will enrich everyone else's experience. Allow them to spread that info and do so with a little character. It does increase friction a bit, but it also vastly increases quality.
If people are a little concerned that they will get called out for saying something dumb, they may fact check a bit and think about what they are going to say before saying it. If everyone has a free hand in saying what ever idiot thing pops into their head and then the mods protect them from back lash, it only encourages idiocy to propagate.
I don't think you can have fully considered the ramifications of your proposal.
For example, how would you measure, designate or limit the acceptable amount of rudeness?
Do people have some limitation that they are unable to express themselves clearly without resort to insults? I don't believe it.
No, the internet big pimpin playa playas won't smack around the new kids. Allow people to be slightly less civil and you will see quality improve. It is a fact that certain posters here have a wealth of knowledge of the game. They are the resource that will enrich everyone else's experience. Allow them to spread that info and do so with a little character. It does increase friction a bit, but it also vastly increases quality.
If people are a little concerned that they will get called out for saying something dumb, they may fact check a bit and think about what they are going to say before saying it. If everyone has a free hand in saying what ever idiot thing pops into their head and then the mods protect them from back lash, it only encourages idiocy to propagate.
But what if they call YOU dumb? Repeatedly?
Then they would be wrong!
If people said my ideas were dumb, then I would have to communicate better. I know with absolute certainty that my ideas on tactics and list building are sound. It is on me to communicate my ideas clearly and support them with evidence so that they are irrefutable. That is how you make an argument as an adult.
I do not need someone else to tell my detractors that they need to be nice to me or they will get a time out.
Adults can have a heated discourse without getting butt hurt. If others can't, then that is a reflection of their immaturity. The rules should not be formulated to pander to the lowest common denominator. They should be expected to rise up to adult levels of discourse.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I would think the Like/Dislike option would work.
The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
That's a fair point, although I would question if button wars would really ensue (At least to the point of filtering out the content to a noticeable degree).
You could also make the Like/Dislike exponentially harder to increase (So after 10 Likes, each Like click equates to .5....then after 20 Likes it becomes .25, etc). This would slightly inhibit that affect.
It's not about hurling insults, it's about allowing heated discussion to occur. Here things get cut out so fast by mods that you can't even have a real conversation. Anytime things get a little heated, ninja mods step in and cut stuff out.
I am not a rude person, nor do I encourage meanness, but you have to allow people to get a little heated in their debates. It allows good ideas to come out and you create a system where people have to present sound arguments or be called out.
In that vein, I've slightly adjusted something you said to reflect an exact opposite opinion:
Adults can have a heated discourse without getting relying on insults. If others can't, then that is a reflection of their immaturity. The rules should not be formulated to pander to the lowest common denominator. They should be expected to rise up to adult levels of discourse.
Note, I'm note presenting this as a "fixed your post" kind of smart-assery. It's a genuine statement.
You are correct. You do not have to rely on insults to get your point across. Look at Shep. He presents great advice and tactics and does so in a respectful way. So does Yakface. That is fine. I do think though, that a little bit of sass helps to put a sense of accountability in people. If you know you're gonna get ribbed a bit, you think twice before spouting something off.
I know not everyone is as thick skinned as me, but I think that is perfectly reasonable.
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
I understand your concern, but couldn't this problem be solved by limiting each dakkaite to one vote per thread? Granted this might not be technologically possible, but even the most polarizing dakka personalities probably would NOT gather too many votes from adherents if they only could get one vote (good or bad) from each. That would still allow truly popular threads to stay in the light longer w/out rewarding poor behavior on the part of some dakkaites.
Edited for Stupidity: (added the NOT... which completely changed the apparent point of my post)
I still don't think we should let the idea of non-mod volunteer work slip away (I mean, look at Malfred's contributions!) without more discussion. I'm really up for getting a team together to organize the tactics threads. I don't think the first step needs to be appointing new mods.
(1) Would anyone else be interested in this? Again, I am specifically asking DashofPepper since we seem to have arrived at the same potential solution here.
(2) If we can do that, would mods be willing to bring down the thread locks on people who post duplicate threads?
I'm seeing this thread veer away from practical suggestions that could actually be accomplished (with hard work) toward an unresolvable argument. Could this be the real problem?
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
Frazzled wrote:Keep talking, Mods are actually discussing these privately.
Help me again, whats the point of the button pushing?
Well, right now if someone has a good post going in the main it can either quickly be fettered off the page by multiple new topics/posts (Therein, others missing it). If there was a Like button, then hot topics would stay up in the ranks without requiring bumps. I would think it would work like a social filter...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
legoburner wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
You could also add gallery votes in the score, which might encourage less gallery lurking and more gallery voting.
The Tactics forum needs a couple of stickies. The first needs to be one covering the rules, and if possible then people who haven't posted in Tactics should be directed straight there the first time they enter the forum. The second one needs to provide links to established threads, including the name of the tactic detailed in the thread, and any other pertinent information such as the units involved and the edition of the game.
The threads themselves should be tactic-specific, so whoever starts the thread needs to name the tactic, and describe it. This description should include the units required to pull off the tactic, the purpose of the tactic, the relevant rules and possible disputes that might arise if the tactic is employed, and the situations in which the tactic should be employed. Diagrams are optional, but encouraged. Regarding the naming of tactics, they may not be named after posters or people.
The moderators only need to do two things besides their usual duties: Create the links in the master tactics sticky, and lock threads that duplicate tactics proposed in existing threads; it would be good if the moderator posted a link to the existing thread prior to locking a duplicate thread.
To complement the Tactics forum, and to weed out all the stupid "Well, just take unit A" comments that rightly belong in the Army Lists forum, the tactics thread can link to army lists posted in the Army List forum where people can debate the merits of various units, rather than crowding the Tactics forum, which is rightly what to do with particular combinations of units within specified conditions.
Frazzled wrote:Keep talking, Mods are actually discussing these privately.
Help me again, whats the point of the button pushing?
Well, right now if someone has a good post going in the main it can either quickly be fettered off the page by multiple new topics/posts (Therein, others missing it). If there was a Like button, then hot topics would stay up in the ranks without requiring bumps. I would think it would work like a social filter...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
legoburner wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
You could also add gallery votes in the score, which might encourage less gallery lurking and more gallery voting.
Added to the list, even though they're stupid (added them to the like button note).
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
Would this be implemented only to keep good threads on top of the trash heap, or could it be added to a user's posts to say, "Hey, this guy knows what he's talking about, you should listen to him."?
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
Whats it for again?
I can promise you it will be one more reason that people will accuse mods of bias.
Nurglitch wrote:The Tactics forum needs a couple of stickies. The first needs to be one covering the rules, and if possible then people who haven't posted in Tactics should be directed straight there the first time they enter the forum. The second one needs to provide links to established threads, including the name of the tactic detailed in the thread, and any other pertinent information such as the units involved and the edition of the game.
The threads themselves should be tactic-specific, so whoever starts the thread needs to name the tactic, and describe it. This description should include the units required to pull off the tactic, the purpose of the tactic, the relevant rules and possible disputes that might arise if the tactic is employed, and the situations in which the tactic should be employed. Diagrams are optional, but encouraged. Regarding the naming of tactics, they may not be named after posters or people.
The moderators only need to do two things besides their usual duties: Create the links in the master tactics sticky, and lock threads that duplicate tactics proposed in existing threads; it would be good if the moderator posted a link to the existing thread prior to locking a duplicate thread.
To complement the Tactics forum, and to weed out all the stupid "Well, just take unit A" comments that rightly belong in the Army Lists forum, the tactics thread can link to army lists posted in the Army List forum where people can debate the merits of various units, rather than crowding the Tactics forum, which is rightly what to do with particular combinations of units within specified conditions.
Interesting but sounds a lot more like a tactical article than a thread.
Give us an example Calamari King. Note the thread on how to deal with demons that I cited (team event, nid/necrons against chaos/demons how beat them) How would such a thread work in this context?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
legoburner wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
Whats it for again?
I can promise you it will be one more reason that people will accuse mods of bias.
Nurglitch wrote:The Tactics forum needs a couple of stickies. The first needs to be one covering the rules, and if possible then people who haven't posted in Tactics should be directed straight there the first time they enter the forum. The second one needs to provide links to established threads, including the name of the tactic detailed in the thread, and any other pertinent information such as the units involved and the edition of the game.
The threads themselves should be tactic-specific, so whoever starts the thread needs to name the tactic, and describe it. This description should include the units required to pull off the tactic, the purpose of the tactic, the relevant rules and possible disputes that might arise if the tactic is employed, and the situations in which the tactic should be employed. Diagrams are optional, but encouraged. Regarding the naming of tactics, they may not be named after posters or people.
The moderators only need to do two things besides their usual duties: Create the links in the master tactics sticky, and lock threads that duplicate tactics proposed in existing threads; it would be good if the moderator posted a link to the existing thread prior to locking a duplicate thread.
To complement the Tactics forum, and to weed out all the stupid "Well, just take unit A" comments that rightly belong in the Army Lists forum, the tactics thread can link to army lists posted in the Army List forum where people can debate the merits of various units, rather than crowding the Tactics forum, which is rightly what to do with particular combinations of units within specified conditions.
I would also nominate Nurglitch to be a Tactics Mod (and should have done earlier), if there were such a position. But, again, I think the first step is seeing whether users could come to some agreement on how their job (like the standards for the stickies) could work and then actually doing the work. Then we can see if it can be enforced. Then we can appoint mods if necessary/helpful.
Kilkrazy wrote:The problem with Like/Dislike is that it would lead to button mashing wars between the supporters and detractors of certain members.
Actually it is not really a problem. First off, there would not be a dislike button, only like. The score could be weighted based on a number of things like user's rank (mod/admin/dcm), user's friend to ignore ratio, number of posts, time since registered on dakka, total number of moderator actions taken against the user, etc. It would be quite easy to filter out the pettiness and give massive boosts to the opinions of our best members. The only thing holding it back is my spare development time.
I sometimes lurk on beasts of war (newish forum)
They have a like/dislike button,
already it's been abused.
people have voted threads down for fun, tried to sell thumbs up, and generaly voted their mates threads up, even if its a load of rubbish
Claypool wrote:Would this be implemented only to keep good threads on top of the trash heap, or could it be added to a user's posts to say, "Hey, this guy knows what he's talking about, you should listen to him."?
Not decided yet. Maybe a little icon next to a user's avatar/info to show they are well respected (probably not though). Maybe a 'best threads' link like recent threads (easy to do). Maybe an alternate default view for every forum that sorts by date and quality instead of just date (harder to do, more pitfalls, but still possible).
I refuse to join the moderation team. Leave it at that.
No need to join the mod team. What I'm talking about is the actual organization or the tactics thread. As I said before, the work should be done, the idea tested, and then mods should be appointed if such proves necessary/helpful.
I refuse to join the moderation team. Leave it at that.
You still didn't answer how your plan would work on an example basis. To refresh your recollection:
Interesting but sounds a lot more like a tactical article than a thread.
Give us an example Calamari King. Note the thread on how to deal with demons that I cited (team event, nid/necrons against chaos/demons how beat them) How would such a thread work in this context?
Frazzled wrote:
Give us an example Calamari King. Note the thread on how to deal with demons that I cited (team event, nid/necrons against chaos/demons how beat them) How would such a thread work in this context?
I'm neither an advocate for nor a detractor against the "like" function. However, I can see one use for it.
New player wants to know how to kit out his command squad. He goes to the tactics forum and does a search. he finds:
What is the best way to kit out a command squad? (43 likes)
What is a good command squad for Codex marines? (4 likes)
Check out my command squad! (2 likes)
Command squads suck! Here's why! (14 likes)
In that example, it's pretty clear which thread I'd look at (Pick 3, mi'lord!). 1 and 2 both seem to cover my topic, but 1 has a lot of feedback and is probably pretty helpful.
However, reading the titles in this particular case, without the "like" totals, was pretty easy. So, I'm not 100% sure why I'd need them. I could be talking out of my rear-end though.
Nope, never had much worry about that, considering the things I've said about how Yakface runs the site and the moderation team.
I don't think anyone takes it too seriously or personally though.
(Mostly) anything that gets a discussion going will be a good thing in the end.
And no Manchu, I don't think this will be 'only a lot of talk' BUT any public free forum is going to be in the hands of its users more than anything else - especially when you factor in how the owners of Dakka Dakka WANT it to be run.
The Mods have (GASP!) real lives which include jobs and families - and so while many feel that the MOD ALERT button isn't working, believe me, it is.
Sadly, we can't be everywhere at all times.
If only being a Moderator also granted us more time in the day or the ability to be in more than one place at a time.
So, THAT is what I was getting at - participate by posting quality content yourself AND by reporting things that should be reported.
Indifferent. I've lurked on this site for awhile and I've only registered for a few specific reasons. Other than that, I really don't care about this site and stopped reading this thread at about page 3. I'm mildly amused that the thread was locked, but that would have also confirmed everything we already know.
But just to confirm the "outsider view", this site is considered to be 99% trash and only worth any attention at all because it reaches a huge audience.
I'd also point out that the mods are generally the worst of the trolls on this site and there are other sanctioned trolls that get away with stupid crap, flames and trolling and then run to their moderator minions when they get called on it. How many threads were started by Moderators mocking and trolling off of this thread? But don't you dare use a "Spess Mahreens" joke around here without approval, that get s you a stern warning.
And I fully expect a "if you don't like it leave" message.
@Frazz: I meant regarding the lead-up user volunteer work aimed at the tactics board. But I think I'll try working a little on it and see if I can even put together a detailed, feasible plan.
So, the message I'm getting from the Mods is that they:
1) don't see any problems,
2) Dont' want to in any way help those that aren't happy with Dakka, and
3) Feel comfortable urging people to put time and effort into something for which they'll receive no credit or respect, on the off chance that that will help.
I mean, I keep hearing the "if you want quality posts write them" mantra, but I think what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it. I could have started dozens of which House at Hogwarts is each primarch thread and gotten a bigger post count and saves myself some effort.
I don't care about the garbage threads and posts, but I feel that one problem is that there really isn't a ton of incentive to post well right now. The staff's current attitude of "don't let the door hit your ass" isn't exactly helping, of course.
Well, I know it seems thankless to you Polonius but I have read and re-read and re-re-read your Guard review and to this day consult it whenever an IG list starts to form in my head. So . . . THANKS! If there was a view count associated with the articles, I think you'd see some confirmation that your articles have made a big impact on many users.
Athera wrote:Indifferent. I've lurked on this site for awhile and I've only registered for a few specific reasons. Other than that, I really don't care about this site and stopped reading this thread at about page 3. I'm mildly amused that the thread was locked, but that would have also confirmed everything we already know.
But just to confirm the "outsider view", this site is considered to be 99% trash and only worth any attention at all because it reaches a huge audience.
I'd also point out that the mods are generally the worst of the trolls on this site and there are other sanctioned trolls that get away with stupid crap, flames and trolling and then run to their moderator minions when they get called on it. How many threads were started by Moderators mocking and trolling off of this thread? But don't you dare use a "Spess Mahreens" joke around here without approval, that get s you a stern warning.
And I fully expect a "if you don't like it leave" message.
In Closing,
"Spess Mahreens"
Wait you've been around a month and have this view. I sense sockpuppet or donkey-cave alert.
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Manchu wrote:@Frazz: I meant regarding the lead-up user volunteer work aimed at the tactics board. But I think I'll try working a little on it and see if I can even put together a detailed, feasible plan.
I just want to see how it can be used in real world examples Manchu. Seriously a lot of Murglitch's schema sounded like an articles format, which might be really where thats going (and is a reason I originally liked the concept of articles). There's time.
Polonius:
I mean, what exactly did you expect for writing the 5th edition IG codex review?
A great big outpouring of thanks and a cash prize? Big hugs? A kudos from Dakka?
Posting well shouldn't be about rewards or for gratefulness from the staff/posters.
For every time you've posted a well-crafted review or an actual legible post, versus the Captain Solons of the site posting whatever crap popped into their head at that minute to post you're pretty much guaranteed to get a bit of "street cred" with the posters who actually would appreciate your posts here.
People like that know you're not going to post dribble that they're going to just roll their eyes at, and ignore the posts.
Will they necessarily reply?
Probably not, unless they have something to add or a question to ask.
So, any chance someone knows who the main account of Athera is?
Pretty much 95% of all of the users posts are trolling, or just plain offensive to other users.
Polonius wrote:So, the message I'm getting from the Mods is that they:
1) don't see any problems,
2) Dont' want to in any way help those that aren't happy with Dakka, and
3) Feel comfortable urging people to put time and effort into something for which they'll receive no credit or respect, on the off chance that that will help.
I mean, I keep hearing the "if you want quality posts write them" mantra, but I think what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it. I could have started dozens of which House at Hogwarts is each primarch thread and gotten a bigger post count and saves myself some effort.
I don't care about the garbage threads and posts, but I feel that one problem is that there really isn't a ton of incentive to post well right now. The staff's current attitude of "don't let the door hit your ass" isn't exactly helping, of course.
What did you want actually Polonius. You got the same exact pay rate we did. I heard even a bonus. Unfortunately 125% of $0 is well, $0. For the love of the game.
If you guys are going to do the like/dislike button, I recommend the admins take a look at board game geek to see how well such a thing can be instituted.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Recommended&redirectedfrom=thumbs-up# In fact, I recommend you copy as much from that site as possible regarding how their site works.
Ultimately though, the like/recommend/whatever button is about as futile as looking at post count to see if a person knows what the hell they are talking about.
Its just a vanity thing at the end of the day.
Not that any of this really matters, since useful contributions here are secondary to cash.
Nope, not ever gonna let dakka live that one down.
Just posted this in another thread before realising I meant to post it here. Sorry.
I would suggest a rep system without any dislike options. Where users can reward good posts with points.
- Limit the amount of points a user can give per week to make people put a bit of thought into who they reward.
- Limit the amount of points a particular post can receive, to prevent the eventually that someone gets a ton of rep for one particular post and the rest of his/her posts are awfull.
- Make it so users with a higher rep can give more points per week. Considering they have a higher rep it can be assumed they know a good post, therefore weight the power to reward in their direction.
- Limit the ammount of points a user can give to another particular user per month. To stop favouritism and people grouping together/only rewarding their friends etc.
Then get rid of the post count, totally or at the least stop it being displayed under a users avatar in threads, display their rep instead.
With any luck you may then get a forum with users focused on making good posts, rather than topping up their post count. Less spam, more substance. Win win.
I know a lot of other forums do have ways to give kudos, or karma, or whatnot to quality posts. That's a way of separating pure posts from quality stuff.
Ideally I'd like to have Frazz stop flame baiting me constantly in the OT, but we know that'll never happen.
But yeah, I think that good posters deserve some recognition or respect from the staff. I don't think it's totally out of line to expect that.
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Kanluwen wrote:Polonius:
I mean, what exactly did you expect for writing the 5th edition IG codex review?
A great big outpouring of thanks and a cash prize? Big hugs? A kudos from Dakka?
Yeah, kind of. I think if I create something of value, I should at least get recognition.
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Polonius: Do keep in mind that while he may be doing that to you, your post does indeed leave him open for a comment
Ideally I'd like to have Frazz stop flame baiting me constantly in the OT, but we know that'll never happen.
Again, its a pretty nasty circle that needs to stop somewhere.
Yeah, I know that disagreeing with any of his well thought out positions is ground for flaming and intimidation. One day I'll learn to behave myself better.
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Polonius: Do keep in mind that while he may be doing that to you, your post does indeed leave him open for a comment
Ideally I'd like to have Frazz stop flame baiting me constantly in the OT, but we know that'll never happen.
Again, its a pretty nasty circle that needs to stop somewhere.
Gee...you would think that would be the job of the administration. Ya know, calming disputes in a reasonable manner and not giving the excuse "I'm human" over and over again until it loses any meaning, not being a fething dick. that sort of thing.
Kanluwen wrote:Polonius:
I mean, what exactly did you expect for writing the 5th edition IG codex review?
A great big outpouring of thanks and a cash prize? Big hugs? A kudos from Dakka?
Yeah, kind of. I think if I create something of value, I should at least get recognition.
What, knowing you wrote a good post and didn't pull a Solon isn't enough?
Heathen!
But seriously. I can't really think of much that can be done, without Yakface sending out money or "thank you gifts" to people for "good posts/articles".
And I really can't think of any way that's happening, unless he maybe starts giving people who write consistently excellent posts free DCM memberships.
Also: I totally appreciate your posts. They're always well-written and easily comprehensible. I like that. No BS, just information or your opinion explained simply.
Hellfury wrote:If you guys are going to do the like/dislike button, I recommend the admins take a look at board game geek to see how well such a thing can be instituted.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Recommended&redirectedfrom=thumbs-up# In fact, I recommend you copy as much from that site as possible regarding how their site works.
Ultimately though, the like/recommend/whatever button is about as futile as looking at post count to see if a person knows what the hell they are talking about.
Its just a vanity thing at the end of the day.
Not that any of this really matters, since useful contributions here are secondary to cash.
Nope, not ever gonna let dakka live that one down.
What?
BGG is the site that charges people even to have an avatar.
I would agree a Like only button is better than Like/Dislike, however I don't find it any use on BGG. I read threads that interest me, not ones that interest other people. THere is an overlap, of course.
Hellfury wrote:If you guys are going to do the like/dislike button, I recommend the admins take a look at board game geek to see how well such a thing can be instituted.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Recommended&redirectedfrom=thumbs-up# In fact, I recommend you copy as much from that site as possible regarding how their site works.
Ultimately though, the like/recommend/whatever button is about as futile as looking at post count to see if a person knows what the hell they are talking about.
Its just a vanity thing at the end of the day.
Not that any of this really matters, since useful contributions here are secondary to cash.
Nope, not ever gonna let dakka live that one down.
What?
BGG is the site that charges people even to have an avatar.
I would agree a Like only button is better than Like/Dislike, however I don't find it any use on BGG. I read threads that interest me, not ones that interest other people. THere is an overlap, of course.
I know youre a member there kilkrazy, but you dont even have the slightest clue how that works.
In your defense I dont blame you because the interface is pants.
What I am talking about is the actual content behind the horrible interface.
You are rewarded for useful contributions to the site. Thats where the geekgold comes in. Sure you can buy it, but thats the lazy pants way to get things done.
Scrubs lie fallow, useful contributors are lauded. Unlike dakka.
Polonius - Dont get me wrong, i more than see your point of view here as previous posts on this thread and the other one show.
However, if you either ignore his posts or respond to them (minus giving him any ground to stand on) its actually quite amusing at the result you can get.
Infact, you seem to get an even better result as they proceed to moan about something, and you sit there with a halo and avoid any bother.
Hellfury - Sad, but true i guess.
However, if some people try and calm down a situation it might actually have a better result than a MOD storming in and throwing in edits/warnings everywhere.
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Polonius: Do keep in mind that while he may be doing that to you, your post does indeed leave him open for a comment
Ideally I'd like to have Frazz stop flame baiting me constantly in the OT, but we know that'll never happen.
Again, its a pretty nasty circle that needs to stop somewhere.
Yeah, I know that disagreeing with any of his well thought out positions is ground for flaming and intimidation. One day I'll learn to behave myself better.
Exactly. Agree...or else!
I personally and this is just me personally appreciate the guys who contribute articles. Good, bad or indifferent they are appreciated, but would hope others note it as I'm not the popular guy around here.
Hellfury wrote:If you guys are going to do the like/dislike button, I recommend the admins take a look at board game geek to see how well such a thing can be instituted.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Recommended&redirectedfrom=thumbs-up# In fact, I recommend you copy as much from that site as possible regarding how their site works.
Ultimately though, the like/recommend/whatever button is about as futile as looking at post count to see if a person knows what the hell they are talking about.
Its just a vanity thing at the end of the day.
Not that any of this really matters, since useful contributions here are secondary to cash.
Nope, not ever gonna let dakka live that one down.
What?
BGG is the site that charges people even to have an avatar.
I would agree a Like only button is better than Like/Dislike, however I don't find it any use on BGG. I read threads that interest me, not ones that interest other people. THere is an overlap, of course.
I know youre a member there kilkrazy, but you dont even have the slightest clue how that works.
In your defense I dont blame you because the interface is pants.
What I am talking about is the actual content behind the horrible interface.
You are rewarded for useful contributions to the site. Thats where the geekgold comes in. Sure you can buy it, but thats the lazy pants way to get things done.
Scrubs lie fallow, useful contributors are lauded. Unlike dakka.
Perhaps you might like to explain it in more detail.
Polonius wrote:I know a lot of other forums do have ways to give kudos, or karma, or whatnot to quality posts. That's a way of separating pure posts from quality stuff.
Yeah, kind of. I think if I create something of value, I should at least get recognition.
Seriously, tell me more as I haven't seen that. more detail please.
But you do get recognition, Polonius, that of your fellow posters. I don't think a new title under your name is going to be better than that, or anything?
Those who post useful content get recognized here in the same way as anywhere else. How could it be done differently? I guess I'm just not seeing what's missing here.
And guys, I know griping about Frazz is fun and all, but really- it's been done . Old news and all that...
Athera wrote:Indifferent. I've lurked on this site for awhile and I've only registered for a few specific reasons. Other than that, I really don't care about this site and stopped reading this thread at about page 3. I'm mildly amused that the thread was locked, but that would have also confirmed everything we already know.
But just to confirm the "outsider view", this site is considered to be 99% trash and only worth any attention at all because it reaches a huge audience.
I'd also point out that the mods are generally the worst of the trolls on this site and there are other sanctioned trolls that get away with stupid crap, flames and trolling and then run to their moderator minions when they get called on it. How many threads were started by Moderators mocking and trolling off of this thread? But don't you dare use a "Spess Mahreens" joke around here without approval, that get s you a stern warning.
And I fully expect a "if you don't like it leave" message.
In Closing,
"Spess Mahreens"
Wait you've been around a month and have this view. I sense sockpuppet or donkey-cave alert.
Frazz - No offence here, but maybe its time to think about posts before hitting submit.
While they may seem fine to you, alot of them do provoke other people.
If i were to do that, i would get hung, drawn and quartered for it (ok, slight exaggeration on my part)
Due to nothing being done, it gives people a negative view of all MOD's, not just yourself.
You guys need to set the examples to follow im afraid, if thats not a possibility, they why step up to the task to begin with?
Also, i respect Alph's posts on here, and i do respect that MOD's have thier own life to deal with, which naturally leaves dakka to follow in spare time.
Athera wrote:Indifferent. I've lurked on this site for awhile and I've only registered for a few specific reasons. Other than that, I really don't care about this site and stopped reading this thread at about page 3. I'm mildly amused that the thread was locked, but that would have also confirmed everything we already know.
But just to confirm the "outsider view", this site is considered to be 99% trash and only worth any attention at all because it reaches a huge audience.
I'd also point out that the mods are generally the worst of the trolls on this site and there are other sanctioned trolls that get away with stupid crap, flames and trolling and then run to their moderator minions when they get called on it. How many threads were started by Moderators mocking and trolling off of this thread? But don't you dare use a "Spess Mahreens" joke around here without approval, that get s you a stern warning.
And I fully expect a "if you don't like it leave" message.
In Closing,
"Spess Mahreens"
Wait you've been around a month and have this view. I sense sockpuppet or donkey-cave alert.
You don't know what "lurking" means do you?
You don't know what "useful poster" means, do you?
Pretty much all I've seen from you is whining or disagreeing just to be disagreeable.
I've been on forums with "Karma". It's little more than a popularity contest and has nothing to do with how helpful or ontopic someone's posts are. <---- Spoken by someone that had a lot of Karma on one of those forums. Scary, huh?
Karma's a problem, simply because it's if someone agrees with you or not.
It doesn't matter if your post was a crummy post, littered with inside jokes that nobody outside of your clique gets...if someone agrees with it, or just makes a habit of agreeing with you it defeats the whole purpose of the system.
Polonius wrote: what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it.
Have a cookie?
Seriously, what did you expect? Was there some implied or expressed promise of reward that we all missed?
You do these things for the satisfaction of doing them.
Kilkrazy wrote:I was aware of that list, however a lot of the stuff on it is irrelevant to DakkaDakka.
If you wanted to design a similar system tailored to this site, what would you include?
Nope. Not my yob.
Been there done that. Not spending the time to go through that again only for a Mod to proclaim that the only real contribution to this site is cash and for me to tell him where to stick it then all the mods line up to have their little chip thrown in the pot because "one of theirs" was somehow wronged.
Thats about all the help from me you're going to get on that one. You got a large contingent of self satisfied mods, you guys figure it out.
Its as relevant as you want it to be, and since it has been deemed largely irrelevant, I guess there is no need to bother right?
I'm a relatively new user, but even in my short stay here I've seen a lot of changes in dakka.
I read everything(yes, read everything) in this thread before my post. I agree with a lot of what's been said about what's happened to the tactics forum, and I agree that something should be done about it.
On the forum as a whole, I think an anonymous "like" button is the way to go, and I particularly like the system legoburner laid down (with each vote having a weight). But a "dislike" button would turn dike into several small, polarized groups if it wasn't anonymous. But even if it was or could be, I'd still stay away from "dislike" buttons, lest the witch hunts start.
I like the system whatwhat suggested as well, but I think it'd be logistically easier and almost as effective to go the "like" button route.
I also think there should be a tactics "mod" or "mod team". I think it should be an actual moderator, but that they could only have power within the tactics forum. This would allow them to be recognized by the rest of users by someone who has some real power and authority, and would allow them to lock offending threads themselves. I understand the argument for them not being, but as stated earlier a definitive goal would help the new mod(s) get off to a good start. And I agree with most of what people have been saying about what their responsibilities should entail.
Polonius: By the way, loved reading your IG review.
There is an ignore button, you know. Sadly, I have about 16 people on that list, and have only be on the site about a month, which I guess shows how downhill this site has become.
Dakka is similar from many other forums: it starts out very tough on idiocy, then get more members, grows soft, and begins to get many juvenile, 10-13 year old testosterone ridden "fan-kids" squealing about their "KUSTOMS!!1!". By that time, the site is screwed unless it starts banning idiots left and right. The alternative is that the sites senior members turn into jerks, and scare people off. Trust me, I have seen both of these scenarios happen before.
Mu suggestion is that you make the poll option only available to members of the site that have a good track record. I also think the great mods here should crack down on inappropriate/risque/raunchy profile pictures, they really spoil the site for me, as a lot of the members with such avatars are really good, informative, posters, but have to go on my "Ignore" list anyways.
Polonius wrote: what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it.
Have a cookie?
Seriously, what did you expect? Was there some implied or expressed promise of reward that we all missed?
You do these things for the satisfaction of doing them.
I think that there are ways the staff could show appreciation to quality posters that don't cost money that would help. Giving awards for good articles. Simply linking to good articles and encouraging others to do so. Hell, even a Pm from the staff saying they liked it would be nice.
I'm sure people liked it, but I'm secure enough in my insecurities to wish that there was a way to become a "name" poster without constant drama.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: I also think the great mods here should crack down on inappropriate/risque/raunchy profile pictures, they really spoil the site for me, as a lot of the members with such avatars are really good, informative, posters, but have to go on my "Ignore" list anyways.
You can turn off the avatar pics in your profile, if those are the images you mean.
Manchu, I would offer to help with the orginization of the Tactics forum,( of course I tend to just try to not lose than use actual tactics). Let me see what kind of time I can free up... I work nights, so me even being awake at this hour is a rarity most days.
If I just wanted the satisfaction of writing about Warhammer 40k, I'd spend more time on my blog. But forums like Dakka Dakka provide an opportunity to talk with people outside of my immediate circle of friends and gaming buddies, where I can encounter people with differing opinions than my own, and sometimes even have a discussion with them to resolve those differences.
Throw my vote in against any kind of user based rating system. Web forums tend to foster popularity contests as it is, something that allows users to raise the rank of other users will make it all the worse.
There are far too many people who like to ride on senior/popular forum members (on all sites), its best not to encourage them.
I graduated high school 15 years ago, not eager to go back.
Please don't make the DakkaDrama go away. Without that, this place would used be another Bolter and Chainsword/Warseer I go to for critique. I paid money because of how much of a soap opera Dakka Dakka is.
Though, this thread has been quite dramatic in itself. I posted this after finishing page 2, so I'll defiantly be reading the rest. It looks super exciting.
helgrenze wrote:Manchu, I would offer to help with the orginization of the Tactics forum,( of course I tend to just try to not lose than use actual tactics). Let me see what kind of time I can free up... I work nights, so me even being awake at this hour is a rarity most days.
Thanks, I will PM you either tonight or in the next few days.
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Nurglitch wrote:If I just wanted the satisfaction of writing about Warhammer 40k, I'd spend more time on my blog. But forums like Dakka Dakka provide an opportunity to talk with people outside of my immediate circle of friends and gaming buddies, where I can encounter people with differing opinions than my own, and sometimes even have a discussion with them to resolve those differences.
THIS THIS THIS. I would like to see this inscribed on a brass plaque and hung on the front page. Dakka is for interaction and community. That has to be the goal that we're aiming at/trying to achieve/falling away from in discussing whether Dakka is more or less worthwhile.
Polonius wrote: what DoP, Reecius, Nurglitch and I have discovered is that even when you do write quality posts, you don't really get any benefit. I work the 5th ed IG codex review, which took hours, and it's not like I got anything for it.
Have a cookie?
Seriously, what did you expect? Was there some implied or expressed promise of reward that we all missed?
You do these things for the satisfaction of doing them.
I think that there are ways the staff could show appreciation to quality posters that don't cost money that would help. Giving awards for good articles. Simply linking to good articles and encouraging others to do so. Hell, even a Pm from the staff saying they liked it would be nice.
I'm sure people liked it, but I'm secure enough in my insecurities to wish that there was a way to become a "name" poster without constant drama.
I think it was a very good article. Not perfect, and not how I'd have done it, but still very good. I'm also sure others link to it and refer as needed.
Also, I think you're a "name" poster, whether you acknowledge it or not.
____
Nurglitch wrote:JohnHwangDD:
If I just wanted the satisfaction of writing about Warhammer 40k, I'd spend more time on my blog. But forums like Dakka Dakka provide an opportunity to talk with people outside of my immediate circle of friends and gaming buddies, where I can encounter people with differing opinions than my own, and sometimes even have a discussion with them to resolve those differences.
Frankly, a lot of dakkas issues are inherent to the hobby, but others are simply how this place is organized. The hobby, overall, is slow-moving. There isn't a ton to report or discuss on a weekly basis, much less daily or hourly, so it devolves into crap. Partner that with one of the worst search functions I've ever seen, and you see repeated crap. Organizationally, the forums are very broad categories (Tactics, Army Lists, etc.) that make it more challenging to find information, so you see lots of random and repeated posts.
Without radically restructuring and improving functionality, I don't really see it changing or improving. This thread by itself also illustrates a problem... is anyone going to really read 10+ pages (as of this post) on this topic?
I get what you're suggesting, Dash, but it sorta is what it is unless peeps take a long look at the overall structure and revise it drastically. Frankly, it's just a message board at the end of the day and not worth the moderator's time to revamp it.
My suggestion isn't to decide what is or isn't sound tactical advice, and I've explicitly addressed this very point that neither of you have read (or are explicitly ignoring). Rather, here's what tactics (and possibly other sections of the forum need.
1. Someone to write a sticky outlining how to post in the forum, and in what form.
2. Someone ENFORCING those standards, such that a viewer can readily see what a given thread is about by the title.
3. Someone INDEXING all of the common tactical discussions taking place so that others can later benefit from the discussions already having taken place.
Frazzled, in a DoP moderated tactics board, your first thread would get nothing from me. Its a unique situation, not often repeated and would simply be discussed, answered and in time it would sink out of attention.
Frazzled, in a DoP moderated tactics board, your second thread would get indexed under ORKS, possibly with the tags, "Most competitive, Ork competitive." More likely though, this discussion has probably been hashed to death already? If possible, I would merge the two threads, PM the OP with the link to the merged thread, and tag THAT thread as the one that goes into the index.
Its not about moderating what is or isn't allowed to be posted, or what is or isn't sound tactical advice - that's for posters to decide as they explore each thread and post in them. Rather, its about directing traffic and making everyone use the same traffic signals. I'd volunteer to do that.
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Manchu wrote:I still don't think we should let the idea of non-mod volunteer work slip away (I mean, look at Malfred's contributions!) without more discussion. I'm really up for getting a team together to organize the tactics threads. I don't think the first step needs to be appointing new mods.
(1) Would anyone else be interested in this? Again, I am specifically asking DashofPepper since we seem to have arrived at the same potential solution here.
(2) If we can do that, would mods be willing to bring down the thread locks on people who post duplicate threads?
I'm seeing this thread veer away from practical suggestions that could actually be accomplished (with hard work) toward an unresolvable argument. Could this be the real problem?
Two phrases come to mind.
1. If you want it done right, do it yourself.
2. Authority without power is meaningless and empty. If you are granted authority over something without the means to enforce or uphold your authority, you have none in the first place. It reminds me being a West Point cadet....where cadets are assigned "authority" over their peers and are responsible for their actions, but have no authority to either reward or discipline their peers - it makes the position of authority a sham. In terms of "organizing the tactics section" I've made my suggestions for how it should be done. Would I be part of a team that takes notes of threads, or makes suggestions for indexing, and reports all of those things to someone else so that they can decide to do it or not? Absolutely not. Either make me capable of doing what needs to be done or do it yourself.
My suggestion isn't to decide what is or isn't sound tactical advice, and I've explicitly addressed this very point that neither of you have read (or are explicitly ignoring). Rather, here's what tactics (and possibly other sections of the forum need.
1. Someone to write a sticky outlining how to post in the forum, and in what form.
2. Someone ENFORCING those standards, such that a viewer can readily see what a given thread is about by the title.
3. Someone INDEXING all of the common tactical discussions taking place so that others can later benefit from the discussions already having taken place.
I have read the thread.
I think, and this is a total shoot, that all of those things would be corrected by a tweak to the Search Function which apparently Legoburner is already working on.
Stickies are a good idea, if people read them. Could the Tactics forum use a little more direction? Sure it could, and Manchu has some brilliant proposals for how this could be done. What you need to accept is that there's going to be new players and young gamers that don't automatically know how to be a contributing member of an online community. Over-moderating and hassling them will cause stagnation, not growth, and that is never good for a community, online or otherwise.
Duplicate threads tend to get locked pretty quickly when reported from what I've seen, and even the search function won't fully prevent this since threadomancy is also frowned upon. Just accept that new people will have growing pains when finding their place in an online-community and I think you'll find that things aren't as bad as you make them out to be.
Dashofpepper wrote:2. Authority without power is meaningless and empty. If you are granted authority over something without the means to enforce or uphold your authority, you have none in the first place. It reminds me being a West Point cadet....where cadets are assigned "authority" over their peers and are responsible for their actions, but have no authority to either reward or discipline their peers - it makes the position of authority a sham.
Funny, the way I understand Leadership is that by exhibiting the qualities of Leadership you inspire a following on your own merit without having to resort to threats and bribes.
Enforcement is key though - Killkrazy (and others?) have pointed out that their stickies are ignored.
It would take a bunch of threads getting this message, "Greetings OP! Welcome to the Tactics forum. Please see the stickied thread at the top of the page. If you did a quick search through it, you would have seen that this thread is already under discussion here <link>. Please reference the Tactics Index before creating duplicate threads in the future.
*lock*
Bingo, they just learned to use the Tactics Index. 25 people click on the thread to see why it was locked and see that they should use the tactics index as well - and they will use it before creating new threads in the future too, realizing that duplicate threads will get locked.
Every time someone posts a thread with a one or two word title that doesn't follow naming conventions for threads in the tactics section, it gets a message, "Greetings OP! Welcome to the Tactics forum. Please see the stickied thread at the top of the page. It outlines the format that you should use to frame questions or articles so that other Dakka members can find your content. Please comply within the next 24 hours, or I will change it for you."
And sooner than you think, traffic is cleaner.
Tactics isn't the only place that needs help. The army list section needs help, so does General Discussion. Signal to Noise there is out of control.
If the staff signs off on Manchu's proposed standards, and we report the threads that violate them, surely they could lock the thread and no one would lose any limbs.
Dashofpepper wrote:2. Authority without power is meaningless and empty. If you are granted authority over something without the means to enforce or uphold your authority, you have none in the first place. It reminds me being a West Point cadet....where cadets are assigned "authority" over their peers and are responsible for their actions, but have no authority to either reward or discipline their peers - it makes the position of authority a sham.
Funny, the way I understand Leadership is that by exhibiting the qualities of Leadership you inspire a following on your own merit without having to resort to threats and bribes.
That is a true statement. However, leadership without authority will never be effective. That is also a true statement. Total compliance without authority is impossible without mass hypnosis. I shouldn't have to give examples or perspective on those statements, so I'll leave it there.
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