Ok well i have almost finished making my khorne army (just finishing the 10 chosen i have in it). But my whole time building it i have been hearing that no one really plays chaos anymore. I'm told that pretty much anything chaos can do in the 4th codex another army can do better. Especially when i talk to a Dark eldar or space wolves player. There saying my zerkers arent gonna be able to stand up to their CC units and it makes me sad because i love my khorne beserkers, and no matter what anyone else says about them I'm stilling running them and gonna wreck everything in CC >~
Is Chaos a bad army to be playing now? Only unit i can really see thats good for its points are Plague marines and im not a nurgle man.
yeah your friends are pretty much right. in fairness berserkers have never been a top tier close combat unit.... and probably never will be. their current incarnation is as strong as they have ever been. and for 21 points a piece they're still a good buy. but they are not going to go toe to toe with assault terminators blood crushers nobs or any other really hard core assault unit. just wont happen.
csm is a bad codex right now. it has a few solid units and really good players can still squeeze a few wins out of its bloated, decomposing carcass, but basically the codex sucks.
you have a few solid units like zerkers and plague marines but no hammers, no death stars, no game changing special rules, no surprises, no good mobility options, etc. the codex just..... lacks.
my advice: don't beat your head against the wall. Imperial marines got 3 new books in the last year or so, and they're all strong. just pick one of those and run a counts as army and I think you'll have a much more enjoyable experience.
Well, the top places at the last few tourneys I've been to around here have been dominated by Chaos Space Marines, even with a descent number of Space Wolves and Blood Angels players around.
In terms of the actual codex, I still like it. I know there are folks out there with a huge hate on for the latest CSM book, but it's still a good, solid book that works and gets its job done with a reasonable amount of simplicity.
In terms of your Berserkers, if folks want to go up against them, they can have fun. My buddy runs mobz of them as assault elements pretty regularly and they just hurt. They hurt less if you can get the charge in on them, but they still tend to hit a lot and wound a lot.
I'm sure there are nastier things out there now, but in terms of a tough, basic assault troop, Khorne Berserkers still do pretty well.
As for the nob squads zerkers dont come anywhere close to the points typically spent on a nob squad so I'm not too worried about them.
As for my army ya i was making one off the 3rd codex till i was told they had a 4th codex now....
I wouldnt really say zerkers got buffed but they werent really nerfed, they just changed somethigns about them.
The chaos codex lost a ton of its customization which i hate so much D:.
im told 3rd edition chaos = SWs
But im a loyal chaos trooper through and through so im gonna stick it out with my fellow chaos, that said.....is there a specific chaos unit that is really shining right now?
zhangbob wrote:
...
The chaos codex lost a ton of its customization which i hate so much D:.
Yeah it sucks. We want our legions back!
is there a specific chaos unit that is really shining right now?
My 2 cents:
HQ:
Demon princes & wings. Get a power (I recommend Warptime or Doombolt; people like the Lash) and/or a mark
Greater demons: I like them.
ELITES:
Chosen. Customize as you wish. Costy.
People like Terminators.
TROOPS: everything is good.
Death Guard: I know you do not like it. Berserkers? 1000 sons? Noise? All of them are fine.
Chaos Space Marines: add a melta, power weapon, Icon of Slaanesh. And a rhino.
I like Lesser Demons. Many people actively dislike them.
FAST:
I do like Raptors a lot.
HEAVY:
People like Obliterators.
Vindicators are funny to play with.
Defilers are sexy and funny to paint and play with.
Havoc are quite good and cheap and good, but they do not get any love. There are better options. However, a 4 melta/plasma squad in a rhino...
Hope this serves!
Ah: Chaos Space Marines are still making it quite good in tournaments. They are cutting it. Not that this should matter if you like them.
CSM are still a playable army and can win games but all the fun options are gone, pretty much only a couple of ways to play with them now.
On the down side I lost My Alpha Legion rules, but on the upside I don't have to face nine obliterators a bunch of havocs and a basilisk from my brother's Iron Warriors anymore
Chaos has sucked for so long I can barely remember them being good.
Steal the space wolf codex and proxy.. They essentially have a Khorne codex. Just replace the word Wolf with Khorne and the word Imperial with Chaos you can't go wrong. Anyone complains.. Blood for the Blood God.
Anyone who tells you that berserkers are bad is dead wrong. Let's see you handle 30 WS5, S5 attacks and manage to recover. Berserkers are quite one dimensional, but that's their purpose.
Shaman wrote:Chaos has sucked for so long I can barely remember them being good.
Steal the space wolf codex and proxy.. They essentially have a Khorne codex. Just replace the word Wolf with Khorne and the word Imperial with Chaos you can't go wrong. Anyone complains.. Blood for the Blood God.
Shaman wrote:Chaos has sucked for so long I can barely remember them being good.
Steal the space wolf codex and proxy.. They essentially have a Khorne codex. Just replace the word Wolf with Khorne and the word Imperial with Chaos you can't go wrong. Anyone complains.. Blood for the Blood God.
You're wrong. See da001's post. It's quite good.
CSM are a specialist army, no matter how you slice it. We have guys that kick face in CC, and we have guys that punch face in shooting. And then we have plague marines, which are possibly one of the best units in the game, who can be both anti-tank and anti-horde. we have defilers, which are arguably the best walkers in the game. We have Obliterators, which are the best campy-units in the game. we have Abaddon, who is basically the best HQ in the game. We have the cheapest terminators, we have the most access to combi weapons, we have the most T5 units in the game. We have everything good. It's just up to the creativity of the player to take advantage of these assets.
Even oddball units like havocs and chosen have uses. We can spam meltas in almost every unit.
I like it when SW players think my Chaos sucks, or when other players breathe a sigh of relief that I'm not playing SW. It means they're overconfident and don't understand 40k that well.
The chaos codex could use some updating; some units are pretty darn poor, and others are just being left in the dust a bit (like our Land Raiders compared to loyalist ones). But there are certainly enough good units to beat face with.
I regularly run my CSM against BA and powerblob IG and they win more than they lose. While they might not be as customizable as they were in the last codex, I would say that CSM certainly still 'cut it'.
Among others I usually run 2 squads of 8 Berzerkers with a powerfist champ in rhinos. They can take on most things on the charge and what sets them apart from a lot of other uber-assault squads is that they are scoring. The key is to stay in the transport until you can throw them against a unit that you can neuter on the charge.
Wait, since when are WS3 I3 AV12, 150pt Defilers even in the running for best walker in the game? They will almost always lose combat with other combat walkers (which usually hit it on 3's and almost always strike before it), cost more than the vast majority of walkers, is much larger and easier to draw LoS to and harder to get a cover save for compared to other walkers, have fewer weapons options than other walkers, don't have the deployment options most other walkers have (scouts, drop pods, etc) and it's weapons don't really synergize (a super long range battlecannon and fleet with a bunch of DCCW's?). Daemonic Possession is great, but that's the only thing keeping it useful at all.
Samus_aran115 wrote:we have Abaddon, who is basically the best HQ in the game.
Wait what? Sure, he kicks butt in CC, but he doesn't add anything to the army other than his prowess as a beatstick.
Neither did most of the other 4th edition ICs. That's a 5th edition state of mind you have
4+2D6 attacks, with a re-roll, 2+ save, 4+ invul, EW..Seeeems pretty good to me.
You mean 4+D6 Attacks =P
Defilers are only good for their ability to walk and shoot their battle cannon. The Soul Grinder is a much better deal since it actually has the highest armor of any non-apoc walker right now, although still suffering from the same detriments as it's CSM counterpart.
I have a growing affinity for chaos, myself. The reason most people think that they suck is because their toys are worse than their equivalent in other codecies, and most people only judge an army by their toy-count.
When people do this, they miss that your regular old CSM is the best infantryman in the game. All the benefits of a statline filled with 4's, power armor, and both a boltgun AND pistol/CCW, all wrapped around a couple of special weapons and a hidden S8 power fist. That and you can upgrade the squad to do some really cool stuff with icons (because, seriously, MoT marines are just a hair less durable than terminators, but you get a lot more of them).
Their meat-and-potatoes units are really good, which means they can still be a plenty competitive army. The problem is all the shiny baubles which few seem to be able to resist taking which, unfortunately for chaos, seem to be heavily populated with points sinks.
2 DP, wings warptime (some people will argue lash but I find warptime better)
Chosen with Flamer X2 Melta X2 outflank in rhinos
Plague Marines w/ Meltas & rhino
Maybe one unit of summoned daemons to sit on your back objective and this is a BIG maybe.
Oblits or defilers (I prefer oblits tactically but I think the models are gak)
That's about it if you want to be competitive. Some people argue for termicide but I'm adamantly against it, too risky for an elite slot better used by chosen.
I really like the current incarnation of the Chaos Space Marines and am frankly dreading getting my army strait-jacketed by someone else's preconceived notions about what they're supposed to look like. I have a 3000pt Chaos Space Marine army equipped almost entirely with T-visored Berzerker helmets so that they would look like the World Eater's Legionnaires of my childhood Epic Space Marine games (See the Renegades expansion). Well, not exactly like them, but those helmets just scream "Chaos Warrior".
The one thing that I really didn't like about the 2nd edition Chaos Space Marine codex was the way that it broke up the legions with the Rubric of Ahriman, Kharn's betrayal on Skalathrax, and so on. It moved from the alluded narrative in Slaves to Darkness to mixing the Chaos Space Marines into the Horus Heresy narrative. This was followed up by the 3rd and late 3rd edition books that tried to write army lists for every legion, to codify them so that World Eaters looks like a band of Berzerkers, and Thousand Suns were coteiries of Sorcerers, Chosen, and Rubric Marines.
I suppose it wouldn't have been so bad if these lists hadn't been (1) Easily gameable, and (2) Too strait-jacketed for the forces of Chaos , not in theme.
The 4th edition Chaos Space Marine Codex has a theme, and that's the Path of Chaos, tracing the fall of a follower of Chaos through the various options bookended by Spawndown, and ascension to Daemon Princehood. The loss of And They Shall Know No Fear incurred for the additional Leadership suggested both the arrogance of success, and the breakdown in morale that occurs when a Space Marine puts himself at the centre of his own universe: he's not going to die to get his brothers out of trouble, or to see that the mission succeeeds, he's going to be looking out for #1. Likewise with the Chainsword, Bolter, and Bolt Pistol arrangement to give them A1.5, as they abandon the Codex Astartes and arm themselves to the teeth.
In retrospect, however, it would be a good idea to follow the line of the other 5th edition Space Marine books and give them an alternative to And They Shall Know No Fear, and a secondary rule bundle like Red Thirst/Combat Squads, or Counter-Attack/Acute Sense, Combat Tactics/Squads, and so on. Just having a higher Leadership is representative, but turning values into rules helps players to connect the fluff with the game, and gives players an interesting puzzle figuring it out. Besides, quite what to have is a matter for another thread. The point is that they have something and it suits both the representative function of representing the selfishness of Chaos Worshippers, and the game function of being a difference kind of Space Marine.
The so-called "Cult Troops" are a bit of an appendix to the main forces, but they're legacy rules so that people could field their 3rd edition armies rather than an integral part of the book. What I expect will be implemented will be the rules for Daemon Princes in the Chaos Daemons book implemented on a unit-by-unit basis. In the meantime, the system of Icons was an interesting experiment, and apparently successful since we now have stuff like Chaos Daemon Icons, stripped own versions, and Wolf Standards, sexed up versions, and even Sanguinary Priests, or Independent Character versions.
The genericized Summoned Daemons do well in the Codex to put the focus on the Chaos Space Marines. It used to be that Chaos Space Marines would be appendices to hordes of Daemons. It would be nice to give them some partial upgrades, so that the Codex Chaos Daemons keeps the feeling of a full-on incursion, and the Lesser Daemons could be thematic would creating no-brainers (plus selling more specific kits, although I personally love my Zombie Lesser Daemons).
Something I particularly like is the way Sorcerers are not Fearless, although this can be made up by simply putting him with a Fearless unit. They have a good idea of what their soul is in for if they die, and therefore have a healthy fear of death while Chaos Lords rely on their arrogance and belief in the favour of the Gods. Which is an interesting theme: On the Daemon Prince side of things the Chaos Gods seem to be very interested in granting specific gifts in return for promoting their interests. On the Spawn side of things the Chaos Gods are irrational donkey-caves who'll soon as give you the Gift of Arseface as bestow Daemonic Stature. Alone among them is Ahriman Fearless, which is great because he's a megalomaniac even by the standards of Chaos.
Chaos Sorcerers could do with an expansion of the range of powers they have access to, with the psychic equivalents of several Daemonic Gifts to give them more variety in the aligned powers, and some synergistic powers so they can enhance units. Instead of Perils of the Warp, they should be treated as having Gift of Chaos cast on them, to represent the Fleshchange. Lords of Chaos should have access to Daemonic Gifts, usually a weaker or more local version of the equivalen Psychic Power.
Which brings me to the best part of the Codex Chaos Space Marine, which is that Chaos is a high-risk, high-reward army. The problem is that reliability is a preferred strategy in Warhammer 40,000 tournaments where letting your luck run out once means you are basically hobbling yourself. That's why we see units like Plague Marines, Obliterators, and the like being considered the only good units in the book, because they reliable. However, they're moreso reliable because their deficiencies require the intervention of the other player to exploit.
So units like Possessed and Chaos Dreadnoughts aren't too random so much as they're random at the wrong time. A Chaos Dreadnought that traded Stunned for Fire Frenzy and Shaken for Blood Rage, so it had to interact with the enemy would manage this better. Likewise Possessed that could change their Daemonkin rule every turn (like Ymgarl Genestealers...) would give players the risk, while making it contingent upon their own choices. To be honest they already do, but people don't get that and it needs dumbing down.
Then there's the whole what "Chaos Space Marines" in Fabius Bile's Enhanced Marines which needs to be sorted out, but it would be interesting to see it apply broadly, to Battle Squads, Havoc Squads, Bike Squads, and Chosen Squads. I think that needs clarifying, since so many people don't get it.
The current Chaos codex is perfectly competitive as long as you avoid Thousand Sons, Chaos Spawn, and Possessed Marines. Khorne Berserkers are tough and dole out a lot of damage. Sure they're not standing up to assault Terminators, but they're not costing 40+ points a model either. Khornate armies can be pretty one-dimensional, but still hold their own quite well.
I play Chaos Marines and I win more often than I win with my Space Wolves, at least since the new Wolf codex came out. Chaos codex isn't perfect, but it's serviceable enough. Most problems people have are with the scarcity of options and focus on renegades instead of legions.
Vaktathi wrote:Wait, since when are WS3 I3 AV12, 150pt Defilers even in the running for best walker in the game? They will almost always lose combat with other combat walkers (which usually hit it on 3's and almost always strike before it), cost more than the vast majority of walkers, is much larger and easier to draw LoS to and harder to get a cover save for compared to other walkers, have fewer weapons options than other walkers, don't have the deployment options most other walkers have (scouts, drop pods, etc) and it's weapons don't really synergize (a super long range battlecannon and fleet with a bunch of DCCW's?). Daemonic Possession is great, but that's the only thing keeping it useful at all.
Defilers will always have a warm place in my heart.
Let me defend them. Please remember I do not play competitive. I play for fun.
Number: Three of them.
Main use: distraction.
Secundary uses: artillery; rapid response.
Options: you swap the weapons for two extra arms and you got 5 DCCW attacks in close combat. Nobody can ignore a charging Defiler. Do not worry about the lost weapons: you will never get a chance to use them. If you can fire, use your main weapon. It´s artillery, so it is the only weapon you can fire this turn. Yeah I know it makes no sense (what are those costy weapons for?), but chaos is like that. If I just got this rule wrong, please tell me.
Keep in mind: they are fast. They are fragile. They have WS3 in close combat so do not expect much of them. They are artillery (think in a Basilisk). They will fail if they get near melta or something like a Dread. They are not Dreads! Stay away from Dreads!
1) Oh they are big sexy things, difficult to ignore. Lack of cover saves? I call it Psychological Warfare. Look at the face of your opponent and you will know if this is the first time he meets Defilers (if they are properly painted & converted, of course). Make sure your enemy knows this variant is called "Slaughterfiend", and that you believe nothing can survive in close combat against it. Three of these beauties running over the battlefield are disturbing for many players. They look far more dangerous than they actually are. They always get a lot of fire from my enemies. I do not expect them to survive. But they will help other units to get near.
2) Hide. It´s an artillery unit. It can destroy anything just shooting. Stay in range. Fake charges. Keep moving. Charge only in need. They are pretty fast, so they will make a difference.
3) Rapid Response: you have just been outflanked or deepstriked. Everyone is busy, but a giant demonic spider that can charge right now. Imagine a Basilisk (not that good) that can turn into a Dread (not that good) if needed.
4) Demonic Possession: an unexpected help, can save your day.
6- optional) They are amazing, a marvel to paint. You can terrify your family (even your dog), your neighborhood and your significant other with them. The background is good too. Search for Slaughterfiend.
Is there something better?
Competitive players do like Obliterators (I do not) and Vindicators (my B option). Nobody talks about poor little Havocs.
Then we have Blood Slaughterers from Forgeworld.
EDIT: wow it took me an hour to write this. And I have just discovered Nurglitch had spoken. Now my post looks slowed!
Really great post, bro.
I have tried Fabius to no avail, I like this guy. I am waiting too for a clarification.
Brother SRM wrote:The current Chaos codex is perfectly competitive as long as you avoid Thousand Sons, Chaos Spawn, and Possessed Marines.
I love the defiler! Granted, it does die rather quickly if out in the open, but I've had really good results with just 1 in my list.
I run it stock, nothing better than going and stomping a unit after hitting them with the twin linked heavy flamer and reaper autocannon.
For the chaos list in general though, I have had lots of success with it, even against the latest netlists and whatnot. I actually kind of dread them re-doing the list, as I am quite comfortable and happy with what we have now.
How do you play Dreads? Such a good model...
I run two with str 7 weapons on each side of a land raider, so that if they fire frenzy they shoot the raider and can't hurt it. Otherwise they run up and punch thing in the face.
MegaDave wrote:I love the defiler! Granted, it does die rather quickly if out in the open, but I've had really good results with just 1 in my list.
I run it stock, nothing better than going and stomping a unit after hitting them with the twin linked heavy flamer and reaper autocannon.
For the chaos list in general though, I have had lots of success with it, even against the latest netlists and whatnot. I actually kind of dread them re-doing the list, as I am quite comfortable and happy with what we have now.
How do you play Dreads? Such a good model...
I run two with str 7 weapons on each side of a land raider, so that if they fire frenzy they shoot the raider and can't hurt it. Otherwise they run up and punch thing in the face.
Nice trick! Gotta try it!
I am scared too about GW re-doing the codex. I would only change 4 things:
1) dreadclaws.
2) spawn problems solved. Perhaps Possessed too.
3) give me back my LEGIONS!!!
4) far better sorcerers, even if they are expensive.
1. inferior mobility options. the current codex gives chaos players only two mobility options: mech up and try to rhino rush your opponent, or dont take transports at all. why is this a problem? because chaos space marines are a close combat army first and a shooting army second. as a chaos space marine player, you aren't going to outshoot dedicated shooting armies, so you must deliver your marines into close combat to win against them. can rhinos get you there? no. against opponents who can force you to reroll your cover saves, can drop them, or can take them away all together with the right artillary piece, chaos rhinos just dont have a chance. compare chaos' mobility options to those of blood angels, space marines, space wolves, dark angels, eldar, dark eldar. even imperial guard can put an entire army in fast skimmers if they want to do it. chaos space marines are just too slow to compete.
2. inferior close combat options. if your rhinos deliver your marines, it's probably because your opponent wants to fight you in close combat. what the chaos space marine codex offers is a wide selection of solid units like terminators, berserkers, and plague marines. they're solid, but they aren't excellent. even the vaunted plague marines arent actually very good at *killing* the enemy; they're just good at *not dieing*. well you don't win by not dieing, you win by killing. anyway against the best close combat units in the game, like thunderwolves, nobz, and assault terminators, these guys dont have any chance at all. without a bone-crushingly good close combat unit, chaos space marines are more or less committed to a strategy that they dont have the tools to excel at.
3. inferior shooting options. so if you can't get into assaults unless you'll most likely lose them, can you shoot your opponent? yes and no. you do have shooting options in this book but they don't compare to the options that the shootiest armies have and they aren't going to be enough to stop dedicated assault armies, which usually combine lightning mobility with excellent close combat abilities. the one bright spot here is obliterators. however they have their own problems - they're expensive, they suffer from instant death, and they don't have ablative wounds. essentially against a dedicated shooting army there's just no reason any of these guys should be alive past turn 3, if your opponent decides to go after them.
4. minor irritants. no psychic defenses, no control over reserves, inferior land raiders, a completely useless fast attack section, no strategy-level special rules (like trading chapter tactics for X or Y)
If you have chaos space marine models I'm not saying you shouldn't use them. They're awesome models, and for just casual play you can do fine with these guys. There are even people who continue to place in national tournaments with this army with a combination of bluff, balls, flexibility, and the all-around solidness of certain units like plague marines, berserkers, demon princes, and obliterators. But this is the exception not the rule. No one thinks its worth commenting on when guard win a national tournament. because its expected. But when chaos does it, it's news. The point is, though, that you really should consider, for the sake of your own enjoyment of the game, choosing a new and better codex to run your chaos space marines out of. There have been three new space marine codices released over the last year, and they're all strong. There's no reason to handicap yourself just because GW is married to the codex system and can't maintain play balance. People will understand.
Ailaros wrote:I have a growing affinity for chaos, myself. The reason most people think that they suck is because their toys are worse than their equivalent in other codecies, and most people
only judge an army by their toy-count.
When people do this, they miss that your regular old CSM is the best infantryman in the game. All the benefits of a statline filled with 4's, power armor, and both a boltgun AND pistol/CCW, all wrapped around a couple of special weapons and a hidden S8 power fist. That and you can upgrade the squad to do some really cool stuff with icons (because, seriously, MoT marines are just a hair less durable than terminators, but you get a lot more of them).
Their meat-and-potatoes units are really good, which means they can still be a plenty competitive army. The problem is all the shiny baubles which few seem to be able to resist taking which, unfortunately for chaos, seem to be heavily populated with points sinks.
yeah there are still some solid options but that's the problem. the best units in the chaos codex are solid, nothing more. they don't *excel* sometimes you can still win with them. but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
AF
Lost of legion rules meant that the legions we felt in love with in 3.5 were completely lost with the new codex (except for maybe the Iron Warriors and Black Legion). The glory that was the mighty traitors who tore apart the Imperium of Man is now reduced to nothing but a bunch of ragtagged renegades and pirates (seriously, if you want to play a balanced force, your army WILL look ragtagged statistics wise). Marginallization of Cult units means that you either play an unfluffy army (Khorne Havocs anyone?) or severely penalize yourself (Berserkers are good, but they suck at tank poping compared to some of the other stuff in the codex. Plague marines are perhaps the only ones who can hold up in their own army, but still quite limited in terms of choices if you want to remain fluffy. Dont even get me started on Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons armies). Loss of Veterain Skills and Daemonic Gifts means that Chaos Marines are literally Space Marines with outdated (both fluff wise and gameplay wise) weaponry.
The loss of Psychic defense was really stupid. You'd think at least Khornate and Tzeentchan units would retain some anti-psyker abilities, the former negating it while the latter absorbing it.
As for combining the forces of chaos into one mass, they did that quite well last edition. Legion rules didnt have to be followed, and you were at no detriment for not having them. Black Legion could easily field mixed armies with no problems at all. It's perfectly understandable for Plague Marines and Berserkers to take up elite slots while the bulk of the legion, who are normal Chaos Marines, took up the troop choices. Then there was also Lost and the Damned, which truely represented Chaos in it's glory, a shambling horde of mutants, traitors, daemons and chaos marines in one horrible congolomeration.
Tactics aside just play what you like. If you can't stand losing play WAAC armies. I personally don't mind losing a game or two, as the other player's satisfaction is oddly gratifying for me.
wait for the new chaos codex. it will surely make your old army feel OP again like it was back in the days.
PS you won't be waiting that long (like DE or Necrons had/have been)
Here's my opinion on the Chaos choices in regards to 5th edition:
- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.
- Chaos Terminators - Good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Auto sucks.
- Possessed - Average. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and, yes, random. But this is Chaos.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.
- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Very Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.
- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Good. Marginally more expensive than their recent Codex-cousins, still effective though and can fill good roles. YMMV however.
- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.
- Defiler - Average. Battle Cannon is a great weapon and the defiler is nice and versatile, being capable in CC and range. Problems are however that it's expensive, is a BIG target and is competing against other, better, choices...
- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.
Of course, that's from a game-wise point of view...
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Chaos sucks heres why
*snip*
AF
All this coming from a guy who's name means Loyal to the Destroyer(Abaddon). (No offense, I just found it quite ironic)
Great post AF, albeit coming from a competitive point of view. Am I correct?
lol yeah I didnt exactly live up to my name there did I.... yeah its from a strictly competitive point of view. for casual play chaos is as good as the player, like other armies...
My 'zerkers have wiped our Ragnar and his Terminator homour guard unit thingy a couple of times.
Admittedly, last time it cost me 8 zerkers to kill Ragnar and 5 termies but points-wise i still won (the SW unit costs around 400-500 points by itself apparently)
I haven´t got enough time, but this is more or less what you see nowadays regarding CSM. What am I missing? They are not competitive because they do not win every single competition? Sorry if I am missing something obvius. I am NOT competitive. But I just don´t understand.
What about Tyranids or Vanilla SM? Black Templars? Dark Angels?
I haven´t got enough time, but this is more or less what you see nowadays regarding CSM. What am I missing? They are not competitive because they do not win every single competition? Sorry if I am missing something obvius. I am NOT competitive. But I just don´t understand.
What about Tyranids or Vanilla SM? Black Templars? Dark Angels?
Only if you have the right list.
It goes along the lines of Lash DPs and Oblits.
For friendly games i woudl think CSM can still be good to play. They are units of other, newer codices which seem horribly OP (BA and SW in my case as my friend play both these).
But they do have bonuses over the others: DPs, Olbitz and.....one of my faves.....the fact that your standard marine comes with 2 CC in his wargear, essentially giving all standard chaos marines 2A as standard.
I haven´t got enough time, but this is more or less what you see nowadays regarding CSM. What am I missing? They are not competitive because they do not win every single competition? Sorry if I am missing something obvius. I am NOT competitive. But I just don´t understand.
What about Tyranids or Vanilla SM? Black Templars? Dark Angels?
they didnt win.... they got 4th... if I'm reading your post right....?
In the US where competition they barely get out of the regional qualifiers. Good players can still win with them. but its an uphill fight. Why anyone would want to handicap themselves I dont understand.
I do miss the specific Legions of the previous edition of Chaos and it's flexibility but I do also like the newest version. I often play Havocs, Raptors and Chosen as well as Summoned Greater and Lesser Daemons and find that they all do their part. As with anything each has their good and bad days. I think that Chaos is a great army to play and haven't considered playing anything else.
Sure, it could do with some tweaking and updating, Sorcerers able to nullify that sort of thing, and could take a step back towards it's previous incarnation in some regards, but I think it's good and still a game winner.
Name: Allen El-Sour (England) Chaos Space Marines - Germany 2010
HQ1 : Daemon Prince Wings , Mark of Slaanesh , Lash of Submission
HQ2 : Daemon Prince Wings , Mark of Slaanesh , Lash of Submission
I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.
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Should we play Black Templars then? Orks? The average all-around winner are still the Eldar. Space elves then?
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
AbaddonFidelis wrote:I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.
It was just an example. It is hard to get data on W40k.
Didn´t they got first in Ard Boys? Didn´t CSM placed 3 in Vegas 2008?4th in UK this year? (I am actually asking; any link?)
I am not saying they are DA BEST. I am saying that they are competitive. They are good enough to win a tournament. And to stay with your favourite army. If you play chaos and change it for a tournament, you will probably get worse results.
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
From what I've seen, and from my own experiences, CSM are not really a competitive army. They're an aging codex that needs a rewrite, but they can still hold their own against the bigger, more powerful codices. I'd rather play CSM in a tourney than my Necrons, but I still don't expect to win, just not to come in last place.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.
It was just an example. It is hard to get data on W40k. Didn´t they got first in Ard Boys? Didn´t CSM placed 3 in Vegas 2008?4th in UK this year? (I am actually asking; any link?)I am not saying they are DA BEST. I am saying that they are competitive. They are good enough to win a tournament. And to stay with your favourite army. If you play chaos and change it for a tournament, you will probably get worse results.
well as near as I can find these were the results: there were three tournaments, one for the east, one for the midwest, one for the west.
East: 1. Chaos Space Marines, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Blood Angels
Midwest: 1. Chaos Demons, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Eldar
West: 1. Imperial Guard, 2. Orks, 3. Space Wolves
I admit I'm surprised. According to the same thread the CSM player's winning list was:
lash prince x2
berserker squad x2
thousand sons squad x2
plague marines squad x2
summoned lesser demons x20
obliterators x9
presumably the squads were meched up in rhinos. like you said it's really difficult to find information on the tournaments. I guess Clark Welch (the csm player) knows something about that codex that I don't. I won't pretend to know what. All I can do is argue from my own experience..... which suggests that csm are incapable of successfully rhino rushing or outshooting a guard gunline. if anyone has any ideas about what clark welch did, who his opponents were, etc., I'd be interested to know.....
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
respectfully, you have no idea where my ideas are coming from.... so I'll just tell you. I argue from my own experience. I'm not copying someone else.
Shas'O Dorian wrote:The basic competitive CSM list is:
2 DP, wings warptime (some people will argue lash but I find warptime better)
Chosen with Flamer X2 Melta X2 outflank in rhinos
Plague Marines w/ Meltas & rhino
Maybe one unit of summoned daemons to sit on your back objective and this is a BIG maybe.
Oblits or defilers (I prefer oblits tactically but I think the models are gak)
That's about it if you want to be competitive. Some people argue for termicide but I'm adamantly against it, too risky for an elite slot better used by chosen.
Why is it risky? Chosen are basically useless compared to termicide, which does the same thing better and faster.
Chosen have to slog around in a rhino, while termicide just drop in and slice crap up with chainfists and combi-meltas.You can get nine terminators with chainfists and combi-meltas for like 450 points, maybe less if you go for powerfists... They basically guarentee that you'll pop a tank...Of course, I would never take nine of the fethers because I have an affinity towards plasmanoughts.
I'd be willing to argue that those attacks on the defiler would decide the battle between two walker, and that daemonic possession would be invaluable otherwise. Firing that battlecannon is key. I'm sure a defiler could blast apart a dreandought before it even got to it.
Soul Grinders are definitly better than defilers...But in their own army. I can't see soul grinders being as useful in a CSM list..We need shooty stuff \
Huh, I thought abaddon gained 2d6 because he counts as having all the marks, and therefore, his DW would count as being a bloodfeeder or whatever it is.
chosen? terminators? land raiders? obliterators? There are several options, and that's before you consider the fact that you can nearly horde-spam CSM, or other options like raptors
AbaddonFidelis wrote:2. inferior close combat options. against the best close combat units in the game, like thunderwolves, nobz, and assault terminators, these guys dont have any chance at all. without a bone-crushingly good close combat unit, chaos space marines are more or less committed to a strategy that they dont have the tools to excel at.
I see this misconception all the time. You don't need to have stellar individual units and models, you just need to have over all killing power. In a game of imperial guard against grimnar and an all-terminator army, who wins in close combat? Grimnar and his boys get wiped.
Close combat is NOT about he who has the shiniest toys winning.
Yeah, chaos shooting isn't great. Not that it needs to be (look at tau's close combat), but if you're looking for a shooty army, then yeah, put down the chaos codex.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah there are still some solid options but that's the problem. the best units in the chaos codex are solid, nothing more. they don't *excel* sometimes you can still win with them. but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Yes, but you're suffering from "shiny bauble syndrome". As I said in my original post, if all you care about is toys, then a chaos army is not for you. If you want rock solid, if somewhat boring choices that can be used with good tactics to come out on top, chaos is a playground.
Chaos is still winning and placing well, they are cutting it; just that they are not cutting it for some that like the New Hotness and have arbitrary standards to belittle the codex.
This is a much more a subjective issue than objective, in which case there must be shades of grey .
Samus_aran115 wrote:Huh, I thought abaddon gained 2d6 because he counts as having all the marks, and therefore, his DW would count as being a bloodfeeder or whatever it is.
The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is technically a fifth mark of the Chaos Gods, unique to Abaddon. While it grants the same bonuses, it does not count as any of the Marks for any other purpose, it's simply there to explain his better profile.
As for the Daemon Weapon, he has Drach'nyen, which is a unique Daemon Weapon and does not gain the properties of other Daemon weapons. It's even mentioned in the asterisk footnote that Abaddon only gains +D6 attacks.
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
respectfully, you have no idea where my ideas are coming from.... so I'll just tell you. I argue from my own experience. I'm not copying someone else.
My mistake.
Welch´s list is funny indeed. An investigation is needed.
Dreadnoughts? Chaos lords instead of DP? Looks like there is not a "best list". We have got plenty of options. And that´s good.
@Samus_aran115
I must admit I find Termys risky too. There is always a lot of plasma and melta around. They appear, trying not to scatter, they shoot (sometimes missing), they die. Same thing with Oblits. They strike hard, but they can fail. Risky.
However we agree about the Defiler. It is mainly a walking battlecannon that can destroy anything from afar. If you keep it moving and firing, it is quite effective.
And do not forget both units are beautiful. We are going too competitive here.
I think the big complaint for people is mostly in the fluff the codex is essentially codex Spikey Marines. I started playing chaos space marines this year. I don't have any experience with the old codex till I skimmed thru it in a used book store. the legion rules were awesome and I would love to have played with them.
cyrax777 wrote:I think the big complaint for people is mostly in the fluff the codex is essentially codex Spikey Marines. I started playing chaos space marines this year. I don't have any experience with the old codex till I skimmed thru it in a used book store. the legion rules were awesome and I would love to have played with them.
Well it IS my biggest complaint, that´s for sure. We got like 9 different armies, and I liked all of them but the Black Legion - Renegades. Now I only have Black Legion - Renegades.
chosen? terminators? land raiders? obliterators? There are several options, and that's before you consider the fact that you can nearly horde-spam CSM, or other options like raptors
oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:2. inferior close combat options. against the best close combat units in the game, like thunderwolves, nobz, and assault terminators, these guys dont have any chance at all. without a bone-crushingly good close combat unit, chaos space marines are more or less committed to a strategy that they dont have the tools to excel at.
I see this misconception all the time. You don't need to have stellar individual units and models, you just need to have over all killing power. In a game of imperial guard against grimnar and an all-terminator army, who wins in close combat? Grimnar and his boys get wiped.
Close combat is NOT about he who has the shiniest toys winning.
Although Kharne has a certain gleam to him...
you need power weapons to compete against thunderwolves, assault terminators, etc. volume of attack strategies dont work. run an equal points worth of csm, zerkers, or whatever you want vs. assault terminators, give the csm the charge. the assault terminators, thunderwovles, etc. will win.
Yeah, chaos shooting isn't great. Not that it needs to be (look at tau's close combat), but if you're looking for a shooty army, then yeah, put down the chaos codex.
it needs to be if they can't win in close combat.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:yeah there are still some solid options but that's the problem. the best units in the chaos codex are solid, nothing more. they don't *excel* sometimes you can still win with them. but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Yes, but you're suffering from "shiny bauble syndrome".
no one's suffering.... Ailaros...
As I said in my original post
my mistake for not referencing your opinions before having some of my own. sorry. really I am.
if all you care about is toys, then a chaos army is not for you. If you want rock solid, if somewhat boring choices that can be used with good tactics to come out on top, chaos is a playground.
do you actually play this book, out of curiosity?
AF
Automatically Appended Next Post:
da001 wrote:
AbaddonFidelis wrote:
If you want to be competitive you should play an army that has either amazing mobility combined with first class assault units, or a unit with enough firepower to cripple the opponent by turn 2. those are the viable strategies that I'm familiar with. but maybe you'll show me something different......?
These armies you are talking about are theoretical dreams born from tactical experts on the Internet. They have been tryed... and failed to make a significant difference. They are not an auto-win at all: a first class player using them can get wiped out by a CSM player (or an Ork, or a Black Templar).
respectfully, you have no idea where my ideas are coming from.... so I'll just tell you. I argue from my own experience. I'm not copying someone else.
My mistake.
Welch´s list is funny indeed. An investigation is needed.
Dreadnoughts? Chaos lords instead of DP? Looks like there is not a "best list". We have got plenty of options. And that´s good.
I looked over his list. I really wish we had more information. I dont understand what this list is supposed to do vs. a battery of 10-15 twin linked lascannons. every one of those rhinos is going to get splashed on turn 1, then the defilers and the demon prince on turn 2. How is this not an auto-lose vs. a guard gunline? or against missile spam space wolves? how is he going to beat a thundercav list in close combat? His list has exactly the problems I'm talking about. He's not fast enough to run the gauntlet of enemy shooting or strong enough in close combat to beat hard core assaulters. I would never play his list.
There is no point in arguing with deniers. As long as the codex can win battles they are content that Chaos Players are just QQing about it and wanting more power. They will never understand why we want our Legion rules back. Honestly only those who have known 3.5 in and out will truely know what we have lost in the 4th ed update.
The most common complaint now is that there are too many Marine armies, and that they should be cut back. Chaos has it's own variant marine armies, but in 3.5 they handled it flawlessly with the Legion rules and Books of Chaos, all in one codex no less.
It is turning into the DH/WH and Necron armies. Good when they came out but not up to these new codexes. 21pt Berzerkers are trumped in nearly every way by 20pt Death Company. Plague Marines have handy T5 but FNP is easy to overcome. Thousand Sons are great in my eyes but are too expensive and S&P is annoying. I like icons and the wierd weapons Lords can have but DP's seem weak now.
I've played CSM since 2nd Ed and they are in the worst state Ive ever seen them in.
Why did they need to change the 3.5 dex aside from selling more product??? The book was awesome.
Now we are left with a poor rules set that badly needs updating.
But all is not at a loss...
If you don't mind fandexes, I'm playtesting a really good Chaos one ATM. It's not overpowered at all and so far plays like an official dex.
It's got sweet rules like Abaddon letting you take Undivided Chosen and Undivided Terminators as Troops choices.
I'll post it up when the owner has finished it.
Sanctjud wrote:Agreeing with AF agreeing with MechaEmperor7000.
I miss spiky bitz...
YESS!!!! spikey bitz!!!!
eliminated by gav thorpe because it was a "frill" so wrong! it was master-crafted for chaos. tragic loss.
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Puscifer wrote:I've played CSM since 2nd Ed and they are in the worst state Ive ever seen them in.
Why did they need to change the 3.5 dex aside from selling more product??? The book was awesome.
Now we are left with a poor rules set that badly needs updating.
But all is not at a loss...
If you don't mind fandexes, I'm playtesting a really good Chaos one ATM. It's not overpowered at all and so far plays like an official dex.
It's got sweet rules like Abaddon letting you take Undivided Chosen and Undivided Terminators as Troops choices.
I'll post it up when the owner has finished it.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.
Wow, what is your definition of mobility?
Horde armies have plenty sufficient mobility, and they don't even necessarily have outflankers, deepstrikers, or transports. If an army requires fast skimmers to have mobility, then I don't think it's the codex that needs adjusting.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:you need power weapons to compete against thunderwolves, assault terminators, etc. volume of attack strategies dont work. run an equal points worth of csm, zerkers, or whatever you want vs. assault terminators, give the csm the charge. the assault terminators, thunderwovles, etc. will win.
Comparing a single dedicated assault unit to a single non-dedicated assault unit that costs half as much is silly.
Ignoring things like the fact that chaos can also bring terminators, when you do the math for even regular CSM they are plenty capable of beating terminators point-by-point.
Of course, dedicated assault units like terminators come on big bases and cost a lot of points per model, so of course they must be scary...
AbaddonFidelis wrote:do you actually play this book, out of curiosity?
Do I have to?
Like many people, I can use objectivity to determine the quality of something by observation. Otherwise, the only way you could possibly choose which army to play is to buy, paint, and play all of them several times and then choose which one happened to do the best for you in the games you played.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.
Wow, what is your definition of mobility?
fast skimmers? jump pack armies with descent of angels? fleet of foot + 12 inch charge? are you trolling or do you really just not see the difference?
Horde armies have plenty sufficient mobility, and they don't even necessarily have outflankers, deepstrikers, or transports. If an army requires fast skimmers to have mobility, then I don't think it's the codex that needs adjusting.
if by "horde" you mean "tyranid," they do have mobility options. outflank, fleet, infiltrate, etc.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:you need power weapons to compete against thunderwolves, assault terminators, etc. volume of attack strategies dont work. run an equal points worth of csm, zerkers, or whatever you want vs. assault terminators, give the csm the charge. the assault terminators, thunderwovles, etc. will win.
Comparing a single dedicated assault unit to a single non-dedicated assault unit that costs half as much is silly.
I said point for point not model for model. why dont you read what I write before replying to it?
Ignoring things like the fact that chaos can also bring terminators
who dont have a good delivery mechanism. re: mobility.
, when you do the math for even regular CSM they are plenty capable of beating terminators point-by-point.
nonsense
Of course, dedicated assault units like terminators come on big bases and cost a lot of points per model, so of course they must be scary...
what are you even talking about?
AbaddonFidelis wrote:do you actually play this book, out of curiosity?
Do I have to?
wouldnt do any harm
Like many people, I can use objectivity to determine the quality of something by observation.
so... basically... what you're saying is that I have 1st hand experience and you don't, but because you're a super-smarty your opinion is better grounded. lol ok whatever.
Otherwise, the only way you could possibly choose which army to play is to buy, paint, and play all of them several times and then choose which one happened to do the best for you in the games you played.
or you could make a list of what you want in an army and then go find the codex that best conforms to that list.
AF
CSM have some very basic mobility, but all of it is literally textbook. Every other race has some sort of mobility modifier (non-mishaping deepstrike for Nids and Marines, various types of fleet + Charge and Run modifiers for Nids, Aircrafts for BA and Imp Guard).
Observation is one thing, but reading the book would mean you get into the mindset and playstyle of the army, comparable to a third person and first person. From a third person point of view you can deduce what your opponent's thinking and what his strategies *might* be. From a first person point of view you know exactly what strategies you have at your disposal. AF obviously have played CSM for some time, and so have I. There are things clearly lacking for them compared to the meta armies (not just to Nilla Marines). Deepstrikers in Chaos armies are horribly ineffective compared to what others can field. DE has Webway Portals. BA has Descent of Angels (and deepstriking Land Raiders), Nilla Marines have Drop Pods, Nids have the Trygon and Mycetic Spore, not to mention being able to spawn gaunts on command (although the book still rightly sucks) and Guards have Valks, and they're not even a close combat army to begin with. There's something seriously wrong when even the gunline armies have more mobility than the CC armies.
Sorry dude. I only have a paper copy ATM. But as soon as I have the go ahead I'll PDF it and post it up.
If there is one thing I can tell you about it, it is this...
Take the 4th ed dex and throw it away. THIS IS CHAOS!!!
They play exactly how the fluff reads. It has rules for all the legions, all the special characters, a couple of new ones, some new units, Daemons, fully updated rules for current units and the best part... They don't play like Imperial Marines, they are a totally different army, when compared to the loyalist pig dogs.
I woudl be interested in having a look at this FanDex when it's ready as well.
You see quite a few of them floatign around but they tend to be a bit iffy at times.
I can't see a new Chaos Codex comign out for a whiel though. I think there are a few armies that are due first......but that's for a different thread. So it's either use a fandex or stick with the current one for the time being i suppose.
Is Chaos worse than the newer books? Yes.
Does Chaos ned a new book? Yes.
Does Chaos need an update more than any other book ATM?
No. No way.
Eldar, Orks and CSM are probably the three 4th ed. books that "need" their updates the least. Compare the CSM codex to any of the 3rd edition 'dexes, Tau, Daemons and both the loyalist variants (disregarding any personal opinion on wether they should exist, just suppose they should) and THEN come and say that Chaos "doesn't cut it".
Is Chaos worse than the newer books? Yes.
Does Chaos ned a new book? Yes.
Does Chaos need an update more than any other book ATM?
No. No way.
I'd agree with this part. Chaos can still win, they just aren't doing it with as much style or as efficiently.
Eldar, Orks and CSM are probably the three 4th ed. books that "need" their updates the least. Compare the CSM codex to any of the 3rd edition 'dexes, Tau, Daemons and both the loyalist variants (disregarding any personal opinion on wether they should exist, just suppose they should) and THEN come and say that Chaos "doesn't cut it".
Orks and CSM are still ok. Eldar is a trash codex with one build. Tau is horrible. Necrons are horrible. Grey Knights are horrible. Dark Angels and Templars...who really cares? Just use another Marine dex. As for Daemons...people just don't understand how to play them. I actually find them to be much more competitive than my CSM army
wow i went without my computer for a few days and this thread really took off without me D:
Yes i know more armys are in much more dire need of a new codex (thats not why i posted this forum)
I have my 1500pt army bought and put together (I get to start painting soon).
Yes i used to play what i could back in late middle school / early high school of Khorne, i started 2 days before the 3rd edition codex came out.
I like a lot of information that was being tossed around, and YES this forum was ment to be looked at from a competitive view point. If i was looking for playing for fun i would not have bothered asking if chaos could cut it.
Right now i know oblitorators are good, but i cant stand them. No logical reason as to why i cant, but i jsut cant so i attempted to make a competitve 1500pt chaos army without them.
I agree havocs arent talked about because for them to be very effective they jsut cost too many points compared to other choices. Defilers are so versatile i know something good can be done with them.
My army is made on the basis that i have so many Big threats on the board that the 3 squads of beserkers, WILL be the last thing your shooting at.
agian i agree lack of mobility.
Idk what the person was talking about a squad of asssualt terms can do whatever a chosen squad can do but better....i spend 140-150 points on a squad of infiltrating chosen with 4 or 5 meltas and maybe a flamer, that's almost guaranteed to take out a tank (or nice models in an expensive squad) that are worth many more points than the chosen are. A squad of assualt terms who will drop in around turn 3 (when my army supposedly would already be in CC if they made it) not to mention they cost a ton more points than the chosen squad so i could have taken multiple infiltrating chosen melta or flamer squads for the term assualt price.
I was quite suprised to read chaos CAN score up there with good armys. Most armys you all showed looked like 2500pts+ and all used plague marines which is great.
I would run plague marines but I'm still a deditcated khorne fan even if the rules are gonna be stacked agianst it. I'm pretty confident in my army atm, and im gonna play test it later today to see the faults and strength in it that i couldn't see now.
Thank you for all the comments and increasing my insight on the matter instead of jsut hearing from the people at my store just telling me they are bad....i plan to have a nice suprise for them ;D
Cookie Cutter armies from the CSM dex do really well, it's not like they cant hold their own. Currently any complaints mainly stem from a fluff and customization perspective. If you want to win, you have to go with cookie cutter.
cookie cutter builds are for people who dont know how to capitalize on their own playing style ;D
Automatically Appended Next Post: i guess that and i havent seen any 1500 pt zerker builds that dont have plague marines in them
Automatically Appended Next Post: you know i finally realize why i dont like oblitorators....they are jsut a pile of guns you call a space marine....why have a pile of guns when i can jsut take my chances running at you and face roll you
I feel like I constantly come in and defend these guys when they are getting bashed, but I actually LIKE the Chaos Marine codex right now. Sure, I miss a couple of items from 3.5, but I love the codex as it stands now, and I haven't actually lost a single game I've played: I played against a fully decked out terminator list for DA and wiped 3/4 of the army in one turn: when the DA got the charge! And I've also violently bent over a tank based IG army and proceeded to violate it worse than that current picture of Margaret Thatcher has done to all of our eyes in Shrike's recent topic.
Am I just having amazing luck with my chaos marines? I have quite a few friends who just steamroll everyone with chaos too, and none of our lists are the same: I haven't run a single Slaanesh Prince yet, even though I'm a devotee of Slaanesh-there is no need. Terminators with Mark of Slaanesh, half with combi-meltas, half with lighting claws, and you're well on your way to absolute victory. So many armies can't handle that in CC. Obliterators are the MOST versitile infantry models in the game and I don't know a single CSM player who leaves home without them. Hell, I run 2-3 units of 2 and they just own. Sure, we don't get dedicated land raiders, we don't get storm shields or thunderhammers, and some of our costs are either a bit higher or with slightly worse abilities than regular marines, but with the Chaos Marks and daemonic posessions flying around, we still have a DAMN-FUN codex to play and haters should be ashamed. Just try something new: my next attempt will include a bunch of Noise Marines (but these guys, in all fairness, DO need to have a points drop-they're the only unit I feel is really hurting right now in the codex, but I love em anyway).
Heh, yeah, but there are other ways to play chaos competitively, I'm sure.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
AbaddonFidelis wrote:oh please. rhinos + deep strike is good mobility? come on lets be serious.
Wow, what is your definition of mobility?
fast skimmers? jump pack armies with descent of angels? fleet of foot + 12 inch charge? are you trolling or do you really just not see the difference?
If you have to have those things in order to be considered "mobile" then your definition of "mobility" is way askew to what constitutes sufficient mobility in-game.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:
when you do the math for even regular CSM they are plenty capable of beating terminators point-by-point.
nonsense
Sense.
5 TH/SSassault termies
compared to
10x CSM with 2x melta, chosen with power fist
bolt pistols and meltaguns kill 1 and the 27 chainsword attacks on the charge kill another. The Champion has about a half chance to put down a third while the remaining terminators kill 2 or 3 CSM. The next assault phase, the CSM finish off the termiators with another casualty or two in return.
Regular CSMs charging their points in assault terminators sees the CSM winning with enough left over to do it all over a second time.
The only way that regular troops fail to kill them is if you're a crappy player or you have terrible luck.
AbaddonFidelis wrote:
Like many people, I can use objectivity to determine the quality of something by observation.
so... basically... what you're saying is that I have 1st hand experience and you don't, but because you're a super-smarty your opinion is better grounded. lol ok whatever.
Your arguments appear to be based on a couple of die rolls you made in your basement or local game store. Your player skill and your luck have very little bearing on the rest of us, with different skill levels, different opponents, different luck, and alltogether different circumstances.
Taking a subjective data set and calling it objective truth is simply incorrect. If I woke up one day and saw that it was cloudy, would it be right for me to say that the sky is always grey?
AbaddonFidelis wrote:Otherwise, the only way you could possibly choose which army to play is to buy, paint, and play all of them several times and then choose which one happened to do the best for you in the games you played.
or you could make a list of what you want in an army and then go find the codex that best conforms to that list.
AF
Exactly. YOU don't like chaos because chaos doesn't give you what YOU want. That doesn't make chaos a weak army in general.
I'm not going to lie, I've played this list once or twice. With proxies of course No way I'd spend all that money on nine obliterators.
also, ailaros...where are you getting the 27 chainsword attacks from? A csm unit would only ever get like 20 attacks on the charge..did you mean 17?
I agree that it's possible that a CSM unit could handle a unit of 5 TH/SS termies, especially because of their lack of shooting to cause any damage in shooting.... Truth is, a lot of things can handle THSS termies, but sometimes it's better to just stay away from them anyway
9 regular CSM and 1 with a power fist. A CSM has 1 attack. Then they get one for the pistol+ccw, and then they get 1 more for the charge. It drops to 2 after that, but the termies are still screwed.
Just regular CSM are a really solid troops choice. That's before you give them the ability to always strike first, have FOUR attacks on the charge, or a terminator invul save...
Ailaros wrote:9 regular CSM and 1 with a power fist. A CSM has 1 attack. Then they get one for the pistol+ccw, and then they get 1 more for the charge. It drops to 2 after that, but the termies are still screwed.
Just regular CSM are a really solid troops choice. That's before you give them the ability to always strike first, have FOUR attacks on the charge, or a terminator invul save...
Oh, I keep foretting. I thought the extra attack was included in their profiles for some reason Looks like I should've been getting way more attacks for the past dozen games
I just recently got into warhammer, like september kind of recently.
I have a small chaos army sitting mostly unassembled and unpainted at the moment (3 7 man plague marine squads, a predator, a biker, a lord and some OOP possessed) (going is slow, i have 3 plagues being painted now, a half assembled bike and have two plagues assembled and painted)
Now, my question is this : have i picked the wrong army? (i picked for fluff reasons) i dont plan to play competetively at all, mostly casual.
Reading the thread, ive aparently been making the wrong purchases, so what will be the right purchases? what should i do next?
Reading this thread has made me think ive messed up, and should just change and go with orks instead, which is my second choice.
Chaos Space Marines is an excellent army. One of the cornerstones of 40k. Rich in background and modeling opportunity, and quite competitive on the tabletop. There are a few flaws with the codex, and some bad units, but overall it's an excellent choice for someone enjoying any of the three major parts of the hobby- background, modeling/painting, and competition.
I responded to a similar post to yours very recently in the Tactics forum, and I hope you won't mind if I quote myself:
Mannahnin wrote:I had taken some time off from the Army Lists forum for the past few months, but by lucky chance I've been frequenting it again in the last few days, and have probably done a half dozen or more detailed rebuilds of various CSM lists. Let me see if I can get you a few links...
Chaos has very solid troops, and both Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are very useful and deadly HQs.
Chaos has terrible Fast Attack units.
Chaos Elites are pretty good, but because all of your units tend to be on the pricey side, you need to keep the costs down here to afford enough Troops.
You almost always want several Rhinos to get your squads where they need to go.
You almost always want to get a bunch of melta weapons into your troop squads, because antitank shooting is otherwise limited in the army.
Heavy Support is pretty much your only source of ranged antitank, and they're pretty much all good options, though our land raiders are not nearly as good as loyalist ones, so they're not very popular.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AbaddonFidelis wrote:
da001 wrote:
AbaddonFidelis wrote:I think you need a broader data set to argue from, if you're going to talk about what the *data* says. you're basing your argument on the result of 1 event. that's just not convincing to me. how about the results of 10, 20, or 30 events? If you want to find that information then we can have a meaningful conversation about the data. but saying that chaos is competitive because a veteran player got 3rd or 4th place at 1 event? just not enough.
It was just an example. It is hard to get data on W40k. Didn´t they got first in Ard Boys? Didn´t CSM placed 3 in Vegas 2008?4th in UK this year? (I am actually asking; any link?)I am not saying they are DA BEST. I am saying that they are competitive. They are good enough to win a tournament. And to stay with your favourite army. If you play chaos and change it for a tournament, you will probably get worse results.
well as near as I can find these were the results: there were three tournaments, one for the east, one for the midwest, one for the west.
East: 1. Chaos Space Marines, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Blood Angels
Midwest: 1. Chaos Demons, 2. Space Wolves, 3. Eldar
West: 1. Imperial Guard, 2. Orks, 3. Space Wolves
I admit I'm surprised. According to the same thread the CSM player's winning list was:
[erroneous list redacted]
presumably the squads were meched up in rhinos. like you said it's really difficult to find information on the tournaments. I guess Clark Welch (the csm player) knows something about that codex that I don't. I won't pretend to know what. All I can do is argue from my own experience..... which suggests that csm are incapable of successfully rhino rushing or outshooting a guard gunline. if anyone has any ideas about what clark welch did, who his opponents were, etc., I'd be interested to know.....
You have the list a bit wrong. I played him and wrote about it here:
Obsidian Raven wrote: have i picked the wrong army?
No, you have chosen wisely.
I have greatly enjoyed my chaos list, even the things that people have said are "bad." T6 bikers are fun! Especially if you aren't running in an uber-competitive envioronment, you'll have no problems at all.
One of my favorite things about the modeling aspect of Chaos is that anything goes! I've been greenstuffing all sorts of wierd new creatures and making modifications to existing ones. I've also been working on summoned daemons, which wil eventually give me a second army in the form of pure Codex Daemons. I'm also planning on running a bunch of recently turned renegades still in their chapter colors to add variety.
Gameplay wise, Raven, Chaos is still very competitive and usable. It also doesn't need much experience if you go with some more cookie cutter builds (Oblits give you options in the field and because of that they're forgiving to new players. the casual CSM has a strong gun, good statline, two CCWs and decent armor, and being the cheapest of all it's counterparts bar the Grey Hunter) As long as you dont need to conform to fluff or a particular god, you should be fine and not severely handicapped like the Grey Knights or something.
And Ailaros, AF has player skills due to first hand experience, negated the luck factor entirely because he has been playing them for a good sum of time, and has whatever subjective observational data you have as well because he can observe the codex from both your stand point, a player stand point, and from a historical stand point (basing on past codices). I can say the same thing as well, and while I've never won a battle with my 3.5 Codex, I loved playing an army I can truely call Iron Warriors or World Eaters. And on the Subject of Mobility again, you seem to think Mobility is getting from Point A to Point B, with reliablity and what has access to that mobility taken completely out of the equation. Berserkers would be devastating if you could drop them like birdcrap in the enemy's rear lines, same goes for Plague marines. Noise Marines would actually be useful if you could do this, since you can plop a champion with Doom Siren and a squad armed with a Blastmaster. This puts out insane devastation on whatever poor souls are caught in it. Surviving to the next turn, they charge in and beat the crap out of whatever they were aiming at due to their higher than average Initiative. Same goes for the Thousand Sons. Pop them in a Pod, drop them behind an enemy command squad, Inferno Bolt the hell out of them, and then wack them with the Force Weapon during the next turn. Drop Pods would let the TS deprive their target of a cover save through careful deployment, and without 2 CCWs, they dont mind not being able to charge on their initial turn. That's Mobility.
Obsidian Raven wrote:ok, i have a question for those here.
I just recently got into warhammer, like september kind of recently.
I have a small chaos army sitting mostly unassembled and unpainted at the moment (3 7 man plague marine squads, a predator, a biker, a lord and some OOP possessed) (going is slow, i have 3 plagues being painted now, a half assembled bike and have two plagues assembled and painted)
Now, my question is this : have i picked the wrong army? (i picked for fluff reasons) i dont plan to play competetively at all, mostly casual.
Reading the thread, ive aparently been making the wrong purchases, so what will be the right purchases? what should i do next?
Reading this thread has made me think ive messed up, and should just change and go with orks instead, which is my second choice.
No, I think you've got it right. 3 7-man plague marine squads is a pretty good idea no matter what CSM army you play. Predators are....less than satisfactory, but you can build it as a hybrid rhino/predator, so it can work
Nurgle has alot of fun toys. Nothing mroe annoying than a Havoc or Biker squad with T5/6 (respectively) bearing down on you. XD
And you may want to build that lord up as a Sorceror. Lash Sorcerors are very powerful especially combined with weapons that ignore armor and/or pull them towards your troops for a charge with the Possessed or Rapid Fire by the Plaguies.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:And Ailaros, AF has player skills due to first hand experience, negated the luck factor entirely because he has been playing them for a good sum of time, and has whatever subjective observational data you have as well because he can observe the codex from both your stand point, a player stand point, and from a historical stand point (basing on past codices).
And I've been playing Chaos off and on (mostly on) since the 3.5 codex came out (a couple of games with the 3.0). And I've used them to go to the finals in both Ard Boyz I've played in (this year and last). Last year I didn't lose a game, and wound in 9th out of 63 or so players due to a Draw against Orks. This year the only army which beat me in the finals was Clark's CSM.
AF is no fool, but he often and substantially overstates his case. Chaos does not "suck", and SW are not somehow vastly more mobile because they have a single (albeit excellent) cavalry unit. All the MEQ codices are principally reliant on Rhinos to move guys around in significant numbers. Other 'dexes have other mobility tools, but Chaos has Outflanking, Deep Striking (and Icons to make that better while simultaneously buffing squads), and Summoning to add to its mobility.
SW also has drop pods. Don't get me wrong, drop pods aren't awesomesauce, but out of the basic MEQ transportation modes, (rhino, razor, drop pod, teleportation) CSM have two of the four. If you add in stuff like teleportation via Gate, or Storm Raven transports, the disparity gets wider.
sourclams wrote:SW also has drop pods. Don't get me wrong, drop pods aren't awesomesauce, but out of the basic MEQ transportation modes, (rhino, razor, drop pod, teleportation) CSM have two of the four. If you add in stuff like teleportation via Gate, or Storm Raven transports, the disparity gets wider.
Good point; you've got to figure that they'll at least add Dreadclaws and improve LRs the next time around. CSM also can Outflank with Chosen, which, while not quite as good as the SW scout Behind Enemy Lines, is a significant addition. Summoning and Lash are not traditional mobility, but substantially add to your ability in that area mid-game. And Razors are better than Rhinos w/combi-bolters or Havocs, but Havoc launchers give a related capability.
Chaos Space Marines is an excellent army. One of the cornerstones of 40k. Rich in background and modeling opportunity, and quite competitive on the tabletop. There are a few flaws with the codex, and some bad units, but overall it's an excellent choice for someone enjoying any of the three major parts of the hobby- background, modeling/painting, and competition.
... [lots of great stuff]
Well said. And thanks for the info. Many great lists there.
May I ask a question?
I found the topic about Ard Boyz, but I didn´t found a battle report or some kind of advice against mech. How do you face mech armies (an IG Leafblower or a BA razor spam) in tournaments? Or perhaps they are not that good?
(And I really hope the dreadclaw will be in the next codex).
Mechanized armies are generally very good, though they can be vulnerable in missions using Kill Points.
Against these armies, you first want to minimize their ability to "Alpha Strike" (strike first with overwhelming firepower) your army.
If you win the roll to choose sides, you want to go ahead and take it to get the first round of shooting and movement.
If you do not, you will get to see their deployment, but they will not know yours while they are setting up. Once they have set up, survey the terrain and LOS lines across the table to figure out if there are any good areas for you to hide, particularly if you are able to bunch up on one side or the other, performing what's known as a "Refused Flank". If successful, if the terrain permits, you will be able to put most of your units out of range and/or LOS of a substantial portion of his army, cutting down his ability to harm you in that first turn. Often at least part of your army will be exposed, but you should at least be able to get cover saves for everything, and hide the most important bits, if the table has the proper amount of terrain.
If the table is very light on terrain, you may be forced to Reserve your army. This has the downside if making your army likely to trickle in, half on turn 2, most of the rest on turn 3, etc, and this can hurt. When an opponent is able to focus the fire of his entire army on a portion of yours, that's usually a recipe for losing. But again, you should be able to make SOME use of terrain, as well as smoke launchers on your vehicles, to reduce/minimize the damage. The other benefit of Reserving is that not only is your opponent not able to Alpha Strike you, but he loses an entire turn of shooting while nothing of yours is on the table.
Elements which can be really helpful against standoff/shooty armies are Deep Strikers and Outflankers. These are able to get close to your opponent without having to cross the middle of the table, and hopefully immediately kill something the turn they arrive. Popular options include small squads of Terminators, such as the ubiquitous "Termicide" (min-sized three man squad with three combi-meltas) designed to blow up an important tank when they arrive but cheap enough to not be a major loss if they die immediately thereafter. As well as Chosen for outflanking, often armed with up to five meltaguns, who come in from a short side of the table and hopefully immediately kill or cripple an important unit. Against IG, sometimes you can even kill more than one tank, especially Hydras which are often fielded in squadrons. I posted in some detail about Chosen here:
Once you've weathered the first turn, generally the main viable tactic against transport spam armies is to charge full steam ahead, using your shooting elements to at least Stun, or when possible Destroy, his transports, focusing on the ones containing the units deadliest to you. Once some of your Chaos troops manage to close the distance, you can frequently perform charges against multiple enemy vehicles at once- your basic guys with Krak grenades, or Berserkers just making S5 regular attacks. If you have HQs with Lash, you can move any of his dismounted infantry to be best assaulted by you, preferably at the same time as you assault a tank. Remember that damage results inflicted on a non-walker vehicle don't count for combat resolution. So a good move can be to Lash an infantry unit into such a position that you charge all but one of the models in your assaulting unit into a vehicle (or more than one), and only ONE of your models into the infantry squad. This way hopefully you do not break the enemy unit in your turn, and your opponent is unable to shoot your unit in his own.
Generally very shooty transport spam armies do not also have a lot of assault punch, so rushing in quickly like this can work. The ones which do incorporate significant assault punch have less shooting, so you can generally make a more cautious assault across the table, using your shooting to try to soften them up first, and not necessarily taking the first assault which is available.
Honestly, Chaos was my first army... and I did very well with them starting in 5th (53 wins, 13 losses). The things to note when playing them:
1) Redundancy. If your going to run a defiler, run 3. If your going to run vindicators, run 2+. If your going to run oblits, run as many as you can fit.
2) For your troops, make them varied. I ran 2-3 squads of Plague marines in rhinos, 1 squad of 10 zerkers, and the rest were basic chaos marines in rhinos. Dual special weapons for everything, zerkers just with a PF.
3) AVOID LAND RAIDERS! Chaos LR's suck, period.
4) For your HQ's, Demon Princes are your best bet. Sorcerers come a strong second, they're cheap lasher's. For special HQ's I cannot recommend Abaddon in a squad of zerkers enough. This is the only time I ever ran a LR.
Chaos is a great army to pick up; saddly they're just a shell of their former glory. Needless to say, when they eventually get a rehash, I believe they will be awesomesauce and I'll probably revisit them... wish I hadn't sold all 10k points I had :(
when they do get an update, expect to see Dreadclaws, Helltalon-clones and probably super possessed or something, and more daemon engines (here's hoping for the Brass Scorpion).
Thank you very much!
I do not want to go off-topic, so I will not make more questions. It is obvious most of us think that Chaos rules (or at least that it is good enough).
But this is the reason I registered here: to learn things.
I was fortunate enough to speak to a tourney player at my flgs and he had some suprising words of wisdom.
He agrees with Zid's approach to redundancy. More is win and win is good.
He said that out of all the armies he faces, Chaos gives him the most trouble and that the lash builds of old are just not cutting it the way they used to. He says they are too situational to make a difference in a mechanised meta. He agreed with my nutcracking analogy:
First we crack the shell, then we crack the nuts inside.
He said for Chaos to move on, players need to start thinking about what is actually good in the dex that can make their games better.
He listed the following as awesome units:
DP - Mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle with wings and appropriate powers to match.
Marked Troops choices - Zerkers and Thousand Sons are very good, PM have taken a fall since DE. NM are fail.
Big units of Chaos Marines. Are better to hold objectives than PM, due to numbers.
Obliterators/Defiler/Vindicators - go big or go home.
Finally, he said the troops choices are the bread and butter of the army, everything else is just built around them.
This guy plays his army like Orks. Massive footslogging squads that nobody wants to assault when they are on an objective and are damned hard to shift.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW the fandex will be ready by the new year for those interested.
Sir, for your consideration I put forth my own theory on Chaos Space Marines and why I love them:
Firstly, I have to agree with the redundancy thing. It helps a great deal, especially as it's surprisingly easy to blunt a Chaos advance if you pop the only Defiler/Vindicator they bring.
Also, I'd strongly disagree that CSM are "inferior" in some way in assault. I play a guy who runs an SW assault army regularly, and my units are more than capable of going toe-to-toe with his. It's more about being clever with the choice of units in your army, I think. You really have to think about how your units will benefit each other in a game, as opposed to what they can do on their own. Synergy is what will carry a CSM list beyond average and into glorious victory, not the talents of individual units working on their own.
Also, as a serious note, some of the CSM units are a lot better than they're given credit for. My Dreadnought is remarkably reliable; indeed, the only unit of mine he ever decides to shoot is my Slaanesh marines. Odd, that.
Puscifer wrote:He said that out of all the armies he faces, Chaos gives him the most trouble and that the lash builds of old are just not cutting it the way they used to. He says they are too situational to make a difference in a mechanised meta. He agreed with my nutcracking analogy:
First we crack the shell, then we crack the nuts inside.
He said for Chaos to move on, players need to start thinking about what is actually good in the dex that can make their games better.
He listed the following as awesome units:
DP - Mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle with wings and appropriate powers to match.
Some good points here. Lash has definitely taken a hit in utility with the shift to heavy mech, though it still has amazing utility in extending your assault range, putting enemy units into bad situations, and multiplying the power of your plasmacannons, flamers, and any ML Havocs you take. The other big contender when fighting mech armies is definitely the nurgle prince with warp time (wings always being mandatory, of course). Nurgle makes him durable; Warp Time makes him killy, giving you good odds of at least one hit even when needing 6s to hit a vehicle which moved over 6".
Puscifer wrote:Marked Troops choices - Zerkers and Thousand Sons are very good, PM have taken a fall since DE. NM are fail.
You've got T-Sons and Noise Marines confused. T-Sons are too expensive, and their AP3 bolters have a tendency to suck in the edition of 4+ cover everywhere. Noise Marines are good in HtH, can get an AP3 heavy flamer, and can put out tons of shots. The Chaos player the US sent to the ETC used them, as mentioned previously. PMs are still the best general purpose cult squad, though. Despite DE poisoned 4+ spam, FNP still makes them twice as durable against that stuff than any other cult marine. Getting meltaguns & blight grenades is also awesome.
Puscifer wrote:BTW the fandex will be ready by the new year for those interested.
I'm quite surprised that people are so quick to forget Noise Marines, sure they're a bit on the pricy side but I have managed to succesfully run a static gunline with them and with Lash Sorcerers.
The advantage, I find, of taking units (Such as Noise Marines) is that many players expect to be facing plague marines and oblits and when they see 3 squads of 7 noise marines with Heavy 3 bolters and a strength 8 AP3 blast weapon their face tends to go:
"O.o"
You're welcome. Please bear in mind that's all pretty basic introductory stuff, and is subject to significant variation based on the terrain, mission, and evaluation of your opponent's and your own army lists at the start of the game. Much as I tooted my horn earlier in the thread, I am NOT one of the top players in the US, much less the world. I'm just a reasonably competent veteran, who's attended a LOT of tournaments and a fair number of GTs and Adepticons over the past 11 years. I know and have faced a bunch of guys better than me.
da001 wrote:I do not want to go off-topic, so I will not make more questions. It is obvious most of us think that Chaos rules (or at least that it is good enough).
Well, that it's still certainly competitive, even if I am jealous of some things about newer codices. Mostly their having more good units spread all over the Force Org chart, and more characterful stuff; Chaos lost out on that a bit as GW was thinking more stripped-down when they wrote the chaos one. At least they didn't get hosed the way my Dark Angels did.
You've got T-Sons and Noise Marines confused. T-Sons are too expensive, and their AP3 bolters have a tendency to suck in the edition of 4+ cover everywhere. Noise Marines are good in HtH, can get an AP3 heavy flamer, and can put out tons of shots. The Chaos player the US sent to the ETC used them, as mentioned previously. PMs are still the best general purpose cult squad, though. Despite DE poisoned 4+ spam, FNP still makes them twice as durable against that stuff than any other cult marine. Getting meltaguns & blight grenades is also awesome.
Tactical question: I will like to use T-Sons however (background + models are great), even if there are better options. The Aspiring Sorcerer (quite costy) can use two powers every turn (MoT) and can not be singled out in close combat. Any tip for using this to your adventage? Which combination of powers?
Tough call. One of the weaknesses of all the cult marines other than PMs is the lack of meltaguns. Chaos tends to be light on antitank, especially long ranged type (the latter mostly only available in HS) so you generally need to compensate for that with meltas in your Troops.
If you have sufficient melta in your army, then probably Warp Time (which is the only way for the unit to do anything in HtH) and Wind of Chaos, which combos well with Warp Time, and reinforces the squad's roll as an infantry-killer. If you're not certain that you're amply supplied with melta, then grab Bolt of Change for another antitank shot, swapping out either of the others.
They're just so expensive, though. Especially for a unit that's Slow & Purposeful and has no CCWs, bolt pistols, or grenades. GW really kind of made them suck in this codex. AP3 bolters and 4+ I saves are both often meaningless in the edition of plentiful 4+ cover.
I partially agree with your comments on the Thousand Sons. The Aspiring Sorcerer lets the squad down, the individual Rubric Marines are freekin nasty. Yes, cover saves are a problem for AP3. Just shoot the nearest squad that ain't in cover, but this isn't the reason to take Rubric Marines.
It's their 4+ inv save vs DE Dark Lance Spam, SW Long Fangs with ML and IG and their Battlecannons.
PM can't do squat against them, where as Thousand Sons can.
There is a guy at my FLGS who has recently changed from PM to Rubric Marines. He went from winning a couple of games now and again, to a win or two every week because of his choice of troops.
It comes down to Meta though. We have DE Sliscus Spam (that's me and yes I lost against said CSM player), lots of SW players pretty much with the same army and a couple of IG players. We have a couple of fringe army players too.
But in our meta, the CSM player using Rubric Marines is hard to beat.
I might have to have another look at the Noise Marines again, but I tend to agree that they are a bit shiny and bright (in the cockney slang).
Well, I played my EC army three times this year vs. SW.
SW got table two times and the third time, SW suffered from a minor loss.
The two opponents are good players, but not top players.
This might be part of the reason why I won these games.
CSM is still competitive if played correctly. Hands down.
Obliderators/Demon Princes are strong and unique and can make for a VERY competitive list.
This is absolutely true.
As a play winged lashing DPs, I prefer NM as troops.
Moreover, Termies with combi-weapons are rather cheap and can be rather effective.
It is a class cannon. My prefered configuration is
5 NM 1 AC w/ power weapon, doom siren
Rhino
The doom siren is one of the best weapons in the game, especially when compared with the lash.
Glass cannon? It's certainly one of the sturdier ones in the game, if that's the case. I certainly make use of them in small units (by which I mean, one small unit of about 6 guys) who tend to act as a fire support/mediocre assault unit.
Sonic Blasters? If you hide the unit in a transport and the transport moves (not more than 6'') then you have 2*2 bolter shots at 24''. Not really much bang for the bucks.
If the Rhino moves 12'' and the unit disembarks you have rapid bolters at 24''.
It does seem a bit much to make people pay even more for what are essentially Storm Bolters, given that NM are over 20pts already. Still, I do like the Doom Siren, and the Blastmaster is fairly entertaining, though horrendously expensive.
Still, +5 pts per model is too much.
The ideal situation in my EC army is this.
NM Rhinos move forward, squads eventually disembark,
lash Princes mislead enemy units so that they get into flamer range,
doom sirens and rapidly firing bolters do their job.
There is simply no need for sonic blasters here.
k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.
zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.
Because you can't lash them AWAY from you, right? Oh wait...
i've finally gotten to play 2 games, and both were vs DE in a 1500 point game and 750 point game. I run khorne zerkers with typically 2 DPs slaanesh and a Nurgle or Tzeench depending on the army (so far only used Tzeentch. My army won both times mostly because of the DPs. My zerkers were doing suprisingly bad agianst my opponents HQs and Eiltes....no its not that its the power weapons. If my opponent goes before i do all wielding PWs they cleave through my zerkers like butter and yes zerkers still take out about half the elites with the 4 that typically remain but then next turn they are wiped out before the get to strike back unless i have a 2nd squad there or A DP backing them up.
First game was annilation i won by 1 point XD its cause his HQ and wytches were tied up with my zerkers for most of the game while my DPs literly hoped over the wytches and killed the rest of his army.
Defiler was able to take out his skimmer after a Turbo boost which helped a lot. We played on a skinny table and my 2 infiltrating chosen squads end up being useless jsut giving his wytches free blood tokens off the bat.
I need to play with the chosen a bit more to see if they are jsut going to be worthless points, cause now that i think about it they can start CLOSEST 12" from the opponent, and with meltas that dont get their melta effects unless they are within 6" they might be a bad unit to run. If im going to repalce the 2 untis of chosen (tiny bit short of 300 pts) I'm thinking of replacing them with melta and or plasma bikers with marks of nurgle (T6) to turbo boost in turn one and go after their Heavy support (hopefully drawing fire fro my impending Rhinos and DPs)
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:
zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.
Because you can't lash them AWAY from you, right? Oh wait...
Yes cause lashing things away from you helps so much vs a hording army
I really do find that although blastmasters are expenisve they always make up their points cost.
For me, they're usually my first choice for troops in 1500pts. I usually run 3-4 squads of 7, 6 with sonic blasters and one with a blastmaster.
Couple them with two lash sorcerers and maybe a vidi and my pie plates shall rain from the sky.
zhangbob wrote:i've finally gotten to play 2 games, and both were vs DE in a 1500 point game and 750 point game. I run khorne zerkers with typically 2 DPs slaanesh and a Nurgle or Tzeench depending on the army (so far only used Tzeentch. My army won both times mostly because of the DPs. My zerkers were doing suprisingly bad agianst my opponents HQs and Eiltes....no its not that its the power weapons. If my opponent goes before i do all wielding PWs they cleave through my zerkers like butter and yes zerkers still take out about half the elites with the 4 that typically remain but then next turn they are wiped out before the get to strike back unless i have a 2nd squad there or A DP backing them up.
Good to hear you're getting som games! Actual play is essential; theory only gets you so far. Your observations about the Zerks are accurate; this underscores the importance of popping enemy transports to help you get the assault matchups you want.
zhangbob wrote:I need to play with the chosen a bit more to see if they are jsut going to be worthless points, cause now that i think about it they can start CLOSEST 12" from the opponent, and with meltas that dont get their melta effects unless they are within 6" they might be a bad unit to run. If im going to repalce the 2 untis of chosen (tiny bit short of 300 pts) I'm thinking of replacing them with melta and or plasma bikers with marks of nurgle (T6) to turbo boost in turn one and go after their Heavy support (hopefully drawing fire fro my impending Rhinos and DPs)
If you want to take out HS hiding in the back, Outflanking Chosen in a Rhino are much more cost effective than Bikers. If you want to draw fire off your assault Rhinos and DPs, you can also just deploy the Chosen in Rhinos and have them joing the rush forward. Quick note- I think you're misreading (or just miswriting) the infiltrate rules- you cannot be WITHIN 12", which means exactly 12" is illegal. It's basically 12.000001 min distance. I never Infiltrate my Chosen when I use them. I almost exclusively Outflank them.
zhangbob wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.
Because you can't lash them AWAY from you, right? Oh wait...
Yes cause lashing things away from you helps so much vs a hording army
Lashing units away can work quite well, depending on the distances and the situation. Lash makes handling hordes in general a lot easier. Bunching them up for your flamer and blast templates, spreading them out and moving them back before you assault them, to minimize the number of their models which can fight (against Orks I always like moving the Klaw Nob far enough back that he doesn't get to swing). Many, many possibilities. Often you don't even want to bother getting a Lash prince into assault vs a horde, because he's just too valuable Lashing every turn.
zhangbob wrote:k...and what happens if your getting horded by CC? Lash prince wont do much, besides help the enemy close the gap. Without Warptime a small horde unit can probably take him down. Your noise marines will get to attack first yes but with how expensive they are and small numbers their in they will easily be over taken. What else ya runnins.
A DP shouldn't be charged by a horde unit.
What I'm running are Obliterators and at larger pt levels also Termies.
As Manna says - lash them away, bunch them up. Lash is one of THE most useful weapons against Horde, just for the ability to change their plans - instead of two units multicharging they find they get charged by you with power weapons / fists moved to the back.
Shaman wrote:Chaos has sucked for so long I can barely remember them being good.
Steal the space wolf codex and proxy.. They essentially have a Khorne codex. Just replace the word Wolf with Khorne and the word Imperial with Chaos you can't go wrong. Anyone complains.. Blood for the Blood God.
I have a friend that is thinking of doing this very thing (even painting up some SW models red, and have thundercav mounted on juggernauts). The CSM codex can be used to good effect but it is generally not as easily done if you want to use a single god. This is the reason I abandoned the army when that abomination of a codex was released. I'm all Nurgle all the time. I don't want to build a force with the others mixed in to fill the gaps and I want my damn daemons back! To the older players like myself (who have been with Warhammer in one form or another for the last 20 plus years) who remember how chaos used to be their newest incarnation is utter crap no matter how it plays, the force lost its feel. However, it still can be played and when it comes down to it if that's what interests you then that's what you should do. Good luck and Blood for the Blood God!
Upon reading the entire codex last night...I'm utterly convinced that every list should include a greater daemon. For a hundred points, you get a WS8, S6,T6, W4 model. Yeah, it can't fly, and only has a 4++ save, but who cares? Greater Daemons are just amazing. A couple other things I like about my own codex
-Almost every unit you want to take has the option for tank busting. CSM, plague marines, terminators, raptors, havocs...Even your rhinos can take combi-meltas. It gets a bit excessive, to be honest, but it's always nice. Yeah, berserkers and sons and noise marines can't take them, but that's not the goal of those units.
- Havoc Launchers. S5 AP5 heavy1 Blast T-L. Lemme emphasize Twin-linked. These things are extremely upgraded frag missiles, that have the possibility of cracking a transport, or wrecking havoc on infantry. They're incredibly versatile, and offer much more than a frag launcher. Who needs whirlwinds when you have these? For 15 points, it's a bargain. Might as well take them on everything in the army.
- Doom Siren. 'nuff said. I only wish lords with a MOS could take them. That alone would make me want to build a Slaanesh list
- Reaper Autocannons. It's a real shame that the option to take them is so limited. We have like three units that can take these monsters. For some reason, a PREDATOR has a regular autocannon, not a reaper. Isn't this chaos?
-Possessed vehicles. Other armies would kill for them. I can't tell you how many times I've been stunned and couldn't fire a battlecannon, or something. 20 points is kind of steep, but not when you really need it.
- Large selection of named HQs. Huron and Bile aren't that bad, despite not being used very often. Kharne is probably one of the best HQs in the entire game right now. With a maximum of 19 attacks that hit on a 2+....He's pretty amazing
-Icons. Quite simply. Being able to gear up certain units for certain roles is great. If I want some terminators to hit faster against other marines, I can spend a couple points and it's done. If I want to give that unit of raptors a little help against instadeath, I can spend some points, and it's done. Not to mention T6 bikers and terminators with 4 attacks base.
- Dreadnoughts. We should be glad we have them. They can be complete monsters, and unless you've got horrible luck, I don't think their SR will really hurt you. They also provide the only means to get a plasma cannon in the army. Coming from someone who truly loves plasma cannons, dreadnoughts are awesome (I play IG just for the plasma cannons..Seriously)
They turn up when the reserve rolls force them to, not when you decide. which is bad.
they kill the aspiring champion / lord to emerge. Which is bad, as it is at least another 33 points -but who takes a naked champ who might need some CC muscle BEFORE the GD turns up? Making that champ 50+ points.
they're hella slow, so often pop and spend the game running to get somewhere.
yeah, this and they're also monstrous creatures, so they don't get cover and are nearly always in LOS, and they can't join squads to hide in them either.
Every time I've faced off against a GD, it dies the turn it arrives. WS8 T6 may be cool, but then I BiD with BS4 plasma and melta and it goes away in a hurry.
Samus_aran115 wrote:- Large selection of named HQs. Huron and Bile aren't that bad, despite not being used very often. Kharne is probably one of the best HQs in the entire game right now. With a maximum of 19 attacks that hit on a 2+....He's pretty amazing Okay. There's a list.
Please tell me I'm right on this! IIRC, Gorechild isn't a Daemon Weapon, so Khârn doesn't get the 2D6 extra attacks.
Samus_aran115 wrote:- Large selection of named HQs. Huron and Bile aren't that bad, despite not being used very often. Kharne is probably one of the best HQs in the entire game right now. With a maximum of 19 attacks that hit on a 2+....He's pretty amazing Okay. There's a list.
Please tell me I'm right on this! IIRC, Gorechild isn't a Daemon Weapon, so Khârn doesn't get the 2D6 extra attacks.
.... I dunno, actually. He has a mark of khorne, which implies that if he has a daemon weapon, it would be a bloodfeeder. I'm not sure. I need to look at the codex.
dont get me wrong kharne is a good hq, but i dont think its worth taking any of the named HQs when you have DPs, DPs, are jsut too good for their points not to take. If I didnt take DPs i would definately take luscius, his armor that whenever he saves vs a wound successfully his opponent imediately takes a Str.4 no armor/cover save hit. Thats insane....and he has Doomsiren! XD
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Samus_aran115 wrote:
- Doom Siren. 'nuff said. I only wish lords with a MOS could take them. That alone would make me want to build a Slaanesh list
Automatically Appended Next Post: also no none of the named HQs have extra attacks form their weapons ( I dont believe) except Abbadon
Well, CSM is still a viable army.
There are a few competitive builds like MC heavy (DPs, GD, Dreads, Defilers) or fully Rhino based (Havocs, Chosen, CSM).
Zhang - except for Typhus, who has a nurgle lord daemon weapon that is ALSO a force weapon. Also Kharne only has a single handed CCW plus pistol, so gets an extra attack that way.
I like some of the themes of the CSM, I think their lack of presence can be attributed in large part to GW neglect for them. They have a ton of room for expansion, the codex alone could/should be divided into at least 3 separate codices. GW should also revive the Daemons potency when coupled with CSM. Sure, they are a nice choice for an Apoc game, but really become diluted in any other scenario. I say the Necrons can wait, the CSM need attention!
@Samus_aran115 / Mannahnin I just tried termicide yesterday. It works! Against wolves. You two were right.
Yeah, it can work pretty well when you absolutely need to pop something. I'm thinking that termicide will be one of the only real ways to pop the achilles so far....
Also, I've been looking at 1k sons lately....They're way too expensive =/
Why in the name of gak is the aspiring sorcerer 60 points? He still has to pay for psychic powers, which can throw him into the "Why not just take a DP" category. They're basically trash in this codex. No meltas, s&p, same price as plague marines....Bleh, they just suck.
Also, I don't like that Noise Marines give no bonuses to shooting, despite being more shooting oriented What was GW thinking? You give them a storm bolter and that blastmaster...And +1 Initiative? What for? I think up to four models in the unit should be able to swap their CCW for a Power Weapon, and every model should get a Noise Blaster standard. They should be like 21 points still. Then let the Champion take a doom siren and a power weapon. That sounds like a really useful unit...Am I right?
Zid wrote:Honestly, Chaos was my first army... and I did very well with them starting in 5th (53 wins, 13 losses). The things to note when playing them:
1) Redundancy. If your going to run a defiler, run 3. If your going to run vindicators, run 2+. If your going to run oblits, run as many as you can fit.
2) For your troops, make them varied. I ran 2-3 squads of Plague marines in rhinos, 1 squad of 10 zerkers, and the rest were basic chaos marines in rhinos. Dual special weapons for everything, zerkers just with a PF.
3) AVOID LAND RAIDERS! Chaos LR's suck, period.
4) For your HQ's, Demon Princes are your best bet. Sorcerers come a strong second, they're cheap lasher's. For special HQ's I cannot recommend Abaddon in a squad of zerkers enough. This is the only time I ever ran a LR.
Quoted for truth. I'd also add in:
5) Do not just throw in PF champs for the fun of it. We overpay through the nose for them compared to everyone else. Keep them in squads that are actually going to assault.
6) Throwing combi-weapons or havocs on your Rhinos can cheaply fill in some holes in your army. Don't overlook them
7) If you insist on using Raptors, bikes, or any of the other "bad" choices, run them in min-sized squads. You can make a vaguely coherent case for them in this configuration.
Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.
"Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos.
Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair..."
I think its cool that you stick with your berserkers. I have heard that it has been overshadowed by the new Twilight codex marines too (wolf boy or vamp boy I forget the names) and I have never played a chaos army. I have always wanted to paint some World Eaters and run around a game store like Kharne getting all mad crazy and just having fun with it, but never had the time or budget to just start an army on a whim. So I looked in the codex, and I looked at some of the games I played (not many but a handful) against Chaos guys, and I came up with this: Lash + Obliterators is one of the best no-brainer combos to beat some serious ass with, even if its overused and obvious, the reason for that is because it works. Don't think your army sucks because the newer ones get shiney newer things you don't get (hell I play Eldar, so I know the feeling even more than you) but think about all the happy chaos thoughts of the few awesome things you can do that nobody else can... like running around a store shouting 'BLOOOOD!!! SKULLLSSS! REND!!! MAIM!!!!" and not getting funny looks as much as you would in, say, a bus station
Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.
What SW list?
I played three times with my EC army vs. SW and tabled them twice,
while the last game was a minor win.
Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.
What SW list?
I played three times with my EC army vs. SW and tabled them twice,
while the last game was a minor win.
Razorspam with TWC deathstar and Long Fangs (sometimes a couple Vindicators). They pop your Rhinos, and then the TWC comes in for the kill. It's not subtle, but it works. Lash only goes so far against this kind of list, due to range constraints.
Chaos is, IMHO, running with a very real disadvantage versus 5E codexes, especially when confronted with power-tuned 5E codex lists. If you're in an area that doesn't feature many of these players, that may explain why you're not seeing the problems yet. Space Wolves, in particular, are a huge problem for me.
What SW list?
I played three times with my EC army vs. SW and tabled them twice,
while the last game was a minor win.
Razorspam with TWC deathstar and Long Fangs (sometimes a couple Vindicators). They pop your Rhinos, and then the TWC comes in for the kill. It's not subtle, but it works. Lash only goes so far against this kind of list, due to range constraints.
You could leave the Rhinos in reserve.
This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.
TWC....Guh. That's all I have to say. I liked in third edition when ANY character in the army could take a juggernaut. They granted +2S and +2T at the time, without granting the extra movement. They were amazing. Not to mention we had a unit of daemonic cavalry, which let you spam the monsters. I haven't seen any lists using them, but it was 11 years ago
wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.
With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.
wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.
With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.
I guess you're right.
They can easily hide and are fast enough to be in your face next turn.
I battled such a list recently - battle report some here.
But the opponent was a good but not a top player and so I could handle it.
I think the problem for chaos is that there are currently not enough top players playing it. It's not as 'point and click' as most 5e codex and takes some time to learn. However in good hands the codex can be deadly and absolutely does well against some long held archtypes out there. Let me put it another way: Chaos can really mess with the meta if you are not careful.
DarthDiggler wrote:I think the problem for chaos is that there are currently not enough top players playing it. It's not as 'point and click' as most 5e codex and takes some time to learn. However in good hands the codex can be deadly and absolutely does well against some long held archtypes out there. Let me put it another way: Chaos can really mess with the meta if you are not careful.
I know a guy locally who tries that by running Chaoszilla with 1kSons. He does very well, but I have not heard of him actually winning a national-level tournament (he does well locally, thought!). There is a reason the top guys are not running Chaos; it's because the codex just isn't as good as the new ones. It's not that you can't win, but you're going to be playing with a disadvantage. In a competitive tournament, you play with the codex that gives you the advantage...
DarthDiggler wrote:I think the problem for chaos is that there are currently not enough top players playing it. It's not as 'point and click' as most 5e codex and takes some time to learn. However in good hands the codex can be deadly and absolutely does well against some long held archtypes out there. Let me put it another way: Chaos can really mess with the meta if you are not careful.
I know a guy locally who tries that by running Chaoszilla with 1kSons. He does very well, but I have not heard of him actually winning a national-level tournament (he does well locally, thought!). There is a reason the top guys are not running Chaos; it's because the codex just isn't as good as the new ones. It's not that you can't win, but you're going to be playing with a disadvantage. In a competitive tournament, you play with the codex that gives you the advantage...
no you play the one thats you like the most and kick butt with it >~
also i recently found out that i can run the same number of terminators for the same price as my zerkers (i know i didnt believe it either), so i revamped my list and added the terminators in instead of the zerkers. I still have to test run the army once i get the terminators in but i think it will be really fun, especially since i found out they dont have slow and purposeful and Chaos has the cheapest terminators in the game ;3
wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.
With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.
Yeah, this is the problem. Generally speaking, you can run a Chaos army that will decimate another specific list. It's a very versatile codex for making hitman builds. The problem is, the current Chaos dex really fails for making all-comers style lists.
FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.
wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.
With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.
Yeah, this is the problem. Generally speaking, you can run a Chaos army that will decimate another specific list. It's a very versatile codex for making hitman builds. The problem is, the current Chaos dex really fails for making all-comers style lists.
FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.
Should look at my list i just put above its pretty close to that
wuestenfux wrote:This would give you time to reposition and shoot the pesky TWC.
With what? Plasma cannons from my obliterators? That's really a key issue with Chaos: they don't have the volume of anti-tank to take down a threat like that, especially if it can hang out in cover easily. Ultimately, I just don't feel like you can handle that kind of list with a take-all-comers Chaos list.
Yeah, this is the problem. Generally speaking, you can run a Chaos army that will decimate another specific list. It's a very versatile codex for making hitman builds. The problem is, the current Chaos dex really fails for making all-comers style lists.
FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.
Should look at my list i just put above its pretty close to that
That's cool and all, but you really need Chain Fists in those squads. Don't want your 300 pt squad getting tarpitted by a sentinel.
When you're investing that many points and have a relatively low number of units, it's good to make those units flexible and able to take on whatever they happen to run across. Especially if they're not very mobile.
FWIW, there are Chaos builds that I feel might be competitive, it's just that nobody tries them. I've never seen anyone run 3 x 10 Chaos Terminator squads, but at 900 pts + upgrades that's not half bad for foot slogging. You wouldn't have to worry too much about getting violated by AP2 pieplate nonsense as you could really spread them out.
Didn't 40kEnthusiast write a big post a while back about unusual chaos variations which can be very competitive? As I recall he ran this type of list and won or got Best General at a small GT or very large RT. He also had an awesome-looking anti-Mech IG spoiler build for Ard Boyz using big squads of walking plague marines, led by Abby and Kharne.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found the post- it's from March.
Don't know what you're looking for specifically, but I like to use squads of 4, 3x combimelta, heavy flamer, and chainfist deepstriking in. It was potent enough to kill any single model it landed next to while being dirt cheap and forcing my opponent to deal with a dozen rampaging Terminators in the backfield.
Yeah I run my terminators in squads of three with combi meltas, and a chainfist almost exactly what you have sourclams
It freaks the crud out of people, not only do you usually kill one of their vehicles, but if they don't shoot them down there's a high chance you'll kill another
Abaddon
Typhus
3 x 10 Terminators, a Nurgly shooty unit, a Tzeentchy shooty unit and a Slaaneshy fighty unit
2 x 5 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, one has rhino
This list catches a lot of people off guard, but I've won a tourney with it and have a great win/loss record. Basically it wins KP by Death Star, and wins objectives by sending Terminators to take their long range threats out while the scorers wait in reserve. Once delivered, Abaddon and Typhus wreck face. I think the list would be stronger with a Lasher for Typhus, he could have Terminator armor to keep the theme going.
Taking long-range threats out?
Just by hoofing across the board and killing them at short range or in cc?
Gotcha. I tend to do that with a trio of Oblits. Send in a small squad of Raptors or barrel round the flanks with a rhino with an icon so the Blitz dont scatter.
Once that's doen they can then try to roll up the back end of the battle, using Multi meltas or H Flamers, dependin on the target.
My thinking was that if it works, it's not a suicide missions and they can move on to take out other targets.
With the Termicide, once they unload those combis, that's it for tank busting.
Again, just my opinion and i've never used it myself so i have no experience. But assuming that the Termie squad lands and pops the target LR 9for example) on the first volley, what are they good for after that? Wouldn't a squad of 3 be too small to wade into combat with full size infnatry squads? I suppose they could use CC to try and take out Rhinos.
Well, a Termicide squad could be small enough to land in a smaller spot close to a tank.
If it fails and scatters or get destroyed upon landing,
you don't need to care too much as its rather cheap.
After their arrival, the unit is often going to die. In fact, the enemy has to deal with it.
True enough. I'll give it a go in my next game. In apoc games i often use Termie-spam and go with the Doombringer formation (Termie Lord + 15 termies) - esepcially if you can land an icon first ( i go with Abaddon for a little extra kick). Lol.
Hence adding a chainfist for an extra 10 points. Means the opponent HAS to deal with them or they lose tanks quickly.
While 3 cant wade into big units, they can happily kill guard HW teams, long fangs etc. This makes them a threat and means the opponent has to spend disproportionate amounts of firepower to kill them, meanin gyour key units can advance under less fire.
The other advantage they have over Oblits is they use your otherwise pretty pointless elite slot.
Oh yeah, the Elites slot. I also like using an outflanking squad of Melta Chosen in a rhino (with a combi melta on top). Similar points cost but they can keep on killing after the first volley (which can also be taken from the safety of the Rhino if the opponent deploys close enough to the table edge.
Yeah, i have mixed experience with Dreads. the Crazed thign isn't as bad due to walkers fire arc no longer being 360 degrees. Sometimes they perfom amzingly well, others they just flail around the table taking space.
Abaddon
Typhus
3 x 10 Terminators, a Nurgly shooty unit, a Tzeentchy shooty unit and a Slaaneshy fighty unit
2 x 5 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, one has rhino
This list catches a lot of people off guard, but I've won a tourney with it and have a great win/loss record. Basically it wins KP by Death Star, and wins objectives by sending Terminators to take their long range threats out while the scorers wait in reserve. Once delivered, Abaddon and Typhus wreck face. I think the list would be stronger with a Lasher for Typhus, he could have Terminator armor to keep the theme going.
Taking long-range threats out?
Just by hoofing across the board and killing them at short range or in cc?
Yup. I expect that the three units just form kind of a wall, pushing across the table, perhaps at an angle depending on the exact terrain and enemy deployment. Then the scoring models enter the table later, well behind the wall of terminators, and do their best to hide completely while grabbing objectives if the mission so requires.
Abaddon
Typhus
3 x 10 Terminators, a Nurgly shooty unit, a Tzeentchy shooty unit and a Slaaneshy fighty unit
2 x 5 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, one has rhino
This list catches a lot of people off guard, but I've won a tourney with it and have a great win/loss record. Basically it wins KP by Death Star, and wins objectives by sending Terminators to take their long range threats out while the scorers wait in reserve. Once delivered, Abaddon and Typhus wreck face. I think the list would be stronger with a Lasher for Typhus, he could have Terminator armor to keep the theme going.
Taking long-range threats out?
Just by hoofing across the board and killing them at short range or in cc?
Yup. I expect that the three units just form kind of a wall, pushing across the table, perhaps at an angle depending on the exact terrain and enemy deployment. Then the scoring models enter the table later, well behind the wall of terminators, and do their best to hide completely while grabbing objectives if the mission so requires.
However, when a tooled up TWC unit incl. some HQs (see Yermom's list) hit the Termies, they will eventually crumble.
Abaddon
Typhus
3 x 10 Terminators, a Nurgly shooty unit, a Tzeentchy shooty unit and a Slaaneshy fighty unit
2 x 5 CSM w/Icon of Chaos Glory, one has rhino
This list catches a lot of people off guard, but I've won a tourney with it and have a great win/loss record. Basically it wins KP by Death Star, and wins objectives by sending Terminators to take their long range threats out while the scorers wait in reserve. Once delivered, Abaddon and Typhus wreck face. I think the list would be stronger with a Lasher for Typhus, he could have Terminator armor to keep the theme going.
Awww i thought this was a 1500pt list, didn't know it was 1850...dang
also whats TWC
Automatically Appended Next Post: im sold on his 6 land raider build for 1850 i like that one a lot XD, tryied making a 1500pt version but sadly the lowest points i could get down for 5 land raiders were 20 points over :/
Typhus + Abbaddon just by themselves put out a ton of damage. Add a unit of Slaaneshi (I5) terminators, presumably mostly equipped with lightning claws, and a few with fists, to the mix and I suspect it'd be a darn good fight.
Typhus + Abbaddon just by themselves put out a ton of damage. Add a unit of Slaaneshi (I5) terminators, presumably mostly equipped with lightning claws, and a few with fists, to the mix and I suspect it'd be a darn good fight.
Want to try running the math?
ya but you also have to remember Typhos + Abby is 500pts + terms with lightning clas or PF are 40pts each and 65 pnts for the slaanesh icon carrier, thats a lot of your army points
Of course. But the whole point of the army design is to have three big killer units which are extremely tough to destroy and can walk across the table, wrecking multiple enemy units and contesting every objective your opponent tries to hold.
It's in one sense a "spam" list, in that you are trying to put more 2+ save models on the table than your opponent can deal with. You can also use the Tzeentch unit to help give the other two cover saves, thus ensuring that the termies get a 4+ save against most of the AP2 or better firepower your opponent DOES dump into them.
"Deathstar" armies use a different approach to army construction than other armies, where you're more concerned about keeping costs down and getting more units on the table.
For an undefined points game. I haven't worked it out, I was just drafting. I know there's probably some "wat" choices in there, but I'm confident that if I stick my dreadnoughts close to my defilers, I really don't have to worry too much about that dreaded '6'
I'd probably swap the Pcannons out for heavy bolters if they hurt me too much. Hbolters seem to be the way to go on Chaos Dreadnoughts. I do love my Pcannons though.
I was considering running some Dreadclaws for the Dreadnoughts, since they get them away from other units and if they roll that 6, they'll probably shoot at the dreadclaw. But most players don't allow IA stuff, so I don't want to include them in the list. They're definitely worth the 60 points though.
Everything else is pretty standard. The defilers are a gun line, basically. The lash prince can get targets closer to my dreadnoughts (Which is why two would be better, but I haven't worked out the points). The plague marines can do whatever I need them to do, and those havoc launchers on the Rhinos give that unit some sort of purpose after it unloads the dudes. For objective based games, I'd probably swap two of the defilers for more plague marine units. The dreads are only like 105 points each, so I see no reason to compensate them.
wuestenfux wrote:The MC heavy list should work fine, also in a competitive environment.
I'd eventually consider Daemons as troops.
Whitedragon's list featured three 5 man CSM squads (two in Rhinos, one riding in a LR), and two packs of 5 LDs, IIRC. The rest was the LR, two lash princes, a GD, two Defilers, and three CC dreads.
wuestenfux wrote:The MC heavy list should work fine, also in a competitive environment.
I'd eventually consider Daemons as troops.
Whitedragon's list featured three 5 man CSM squads (two in Rhinos, one riding in a LR), and two packs of 5 LDs, IIRC. The rest was the LR, two lash princes, a GD, two Defilers, and three CC dreads.
Small Berzerker squads do not cut it. Five men squads are just for scoring purposes and sniping inside of the Rhinos. (LD = lesser daemons?).
~
(No offense, I just found it quite ironic)
What was