First of all, Mods, please do not move this thread. It will have battle reports in it eventually when the Ard Boyz preliminaries come around. But it will also contain Army List ideas and also a tactica on how to take on the Ard Boyz scenarios.


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Now for those who are unfamiliar with the Ard Boyz, it is a series of nation-wide tournaments in the United States at 2500pts. There are actually 3 rounds - the Preliminaries, the Semi-finals and the Finals. The pre-lims are on Aug. 3, the semi's are on Sept. 17th and the Finals is sometime in October. Basically, the top 3 finishers in the pre-lims will move onto the semi's. Then, the top 3 finishers from the semi's will then head onto the finals. Last year, the finals were held in 3 locations - Los Angeles, Chicago and Pennsylvania. Rules and scenarios for Ard Boyz preliminaries can be found here. Last year, the 3 winners of Ard Boyz were Chaos Daemons (Los Angeles), Chaos Space Marines (Pennsylvania) and Imperial Guards (Chicago).

For Ard Boyz, basically, it's just bring your most competitive lists. There are no Sportsmanship scores and no painting scores. Painting is not a requirement, though models do need to be what-you-see-is-what-you-get (WYSIWYG). I've seen some pretty "cheesy", "nutty" armies. This is where you'll see the uber-deathstar units and ultra-spammy MSU lists. I've seen a 30 fleeting assault terminator Shrike army against a 250+ green tide ork horde, 5 land raider marines vs 6 land raider CSM, dual nob bikers, dual seer councils, IG leafblower, BA razor-spam, Space wolves razor-spam, ork battlewagon-spam, fatecrusher lists....you name it.

Last year was actually my first year to the Ard Boyz, and I brought my Space Wolves. Unfortunately, my first match was against arguably one of the most dominant armies at the time - mechguards. I didn't bring one of those highly competitive pure MSU armies and narrowly lost to IG. I went on to win my next 2 matches, but the damage was already done. I was out of the running. BTW, the winner at our location was Janthkin and his bugs, but he was lucky to have ducked my 3 rune priests/2 Jaws of the World Wolf list (and on drop pods).

This year, I have a much loftier goal. I'm bringing my Grey Knights, and I think that they could make it to the Semi-finals (meaning I'd have to place in the top 3). Well, maybe...depending on which build I bring. Yes, while I've been mainly playing my Crowe-purifier-dread GK's as of late, I may not necessarily be bringing them to the Ard Boyz. After much experimentation, it's come down to 2 lists and I'll let you, the voters, decide which I take.


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Grey Knights 2500 List #1 - Purifier-Dread Spam

Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Halberds, 1x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


This list is my tried-and-true list. It is an extremely balanced all-comer's GK list that is also incredibly flexible. It's also got some very nasty anti-MSU firepower and it can hold it's own in assault against most armies. There isn't any army that this list can't handle. I have supreme confidence in it, and if I really want to win, this is the list I should take.



Grey Knights 2500 List #2 - Interceptors-Foot-knights

Grandmaster - Rad Grenades
Librarian - Warding Stave, Dark Excommunication, Might of Titan, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding, 3x Servo-skulls - 225

10x Strike Squads - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squads - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
9x Strike Squads - 1x Psycannon, Psybolt Ammo

10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Psybolt Ammo
10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Psybolt Ammo
10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannons, 3x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Psybolt Ammo

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


List #2 isn't quite as competitive nor is it as balanced as my first list. With this list, I'm not so sure I will make it to the semi-finals. However, it's got 2 things here that I love - interceptors and S5 stormbolter-spam. Also, it's got the underdog feel to it, and as a longtime daemonhunter player, that is a role that I've already gotten used to. It's also what's made me a better player. As a matter of fact, I relish taking the underdog army and doing well with it.

But don't get me wrong. It's still a very strong list IMO and could surprise a few people. We're talking about 60+ force weapon-toting MEQ's here with S5 assault 2 guns. I'll use the 9-man strike squad as a screening unit if I have to, and they will provide a 3+ shrouded cover save to the rest of my army. Interceptors are just awesome if used properly. Dreads and psycannons should provide the necessary AT, and if you don't think I have enough scoring bodies, Grand Strategy is going to make the interceptors scoring and then they can combat-squad as well.


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So my main question at this moment is - which should I take to the Ard Boyz? Comments and opinions welcomed.


Coming up at some future date, a tactica on how will my knights take on the 3 Ard Boyz scenarios.

I think your crowe list will do better, because the second list is lacking lots of long range anti-tank, whereas the first has lots of it.

Unleash Crowe, I say

It is easier to take a weak list to the Ard Boyz as the player will have a built in excuse if they don't win. It is much harder to bring your best army to the Ard Boyz as the player will have more pressure on them to win and no excuses.

woodbok wrote:I think your crowe list will do better, because the second list is lacking lots of long range anti-tank, whereas the first has lots of it.

Yeah, I totally agree. My purifier list is without a doubt the stronger list IMO.

However, you are really under-estimating the amount of AT list #2 has. While it only has half the ranged AT as the purifier build, on the whole, it may potentially be better at cracking open tanks than my purifier build...and that includes land raiders!

Stormcrow wrote:Unleash Crowe, I say

From the looks of the poll, I may well do so.

DarthDiggler wrote:It is easier to take a weak list to the Ard Boyz as the player will have a built in excuse if they don't win. It is much harder to bring your best army to the Ard Boyz as the player will have more pressure on them to win and no excuses.

I intend to win with both. However, with the interceptor list, it'll just be harder. If I bring them, it'll probably be more for fun. Honestly, I'm not sure if my interceptors can win it...but I'll try my best if I end up bringing them.

I say the first list. It has more reliable and durable anti-vehicle and you're familiar with it.

You're looking at 20 S8 48" shots versus 12 and 52/26 S7 rending 24" shots versus 44/22 and the second list will be using the psycannon in assault mode more as they'll be moving outside vehicles more.

First list wins easily on firepower.

In melee, the first list is ghoing to do better against hordes and has 65 basic attacks from its infantry as opposed to 68 -- not really a difference.

Scoring-wise, six units should be enough and so both lists have it covered. certainly the second list has super-redundancy built into it in that regard but I think too much and it might in fact benefit more from re-rolling to wound rolls of 1, helping it in both melee and shooting.

Durability-wise the second list does have more bodies: 59 infantry as opposed to 35, but I don't think taking losses will be so much of an issue.

the main things the second list has is some fearsome mobility from the interceptor-spam which could be useful for objective contesting/grabbing in the late game, potentially useful tactical options from Grand Strategy and the Librarian's powers. Now I'm a huge fan of the Librarian in a list with Paladins and/or storm ravens and in fairness his Sanctuary power will be a tremendous asset for this list as it should interfere with a lot of assaults. But I think you might want to drop the warding stave, quicksilver (lots of halberds anyway and yiou don't really have an assault army) and consider taking Warp Rift instead of DE or just dropping DE altogether. The points saved could give the GM a psycannon. I think the Librarian wants to hide behind the lines in this list, not get mixed into close-quarters fighting.

But take the first list. I think it's much stronger.

Aren't the purifiers fearless? I would go with them. With ld 9 you fail it at the worst possible times.

I would say the first list. Judging from your previous reports your Interceptors seem to die pretty quickly, often losing whole squads at a time. The extra protection and mobility given by the Transports would probably serve better than Interceptors on foot.

The second list is better for the missions in round 1. Two of the three are annihilation style missions, and as list two has half the kps and each is harder to get, I think it will perform better from a Meta perspective.

List #1 seems to me to be at least x2 times stronger than #2.

Have you had any practice games with List #1 and how did they go?

Both lists are strong.

Reecius makes a compelling argument for the second list. It should do better in Annihilation missions and all those storm bolters should hold off horde. However, it may struggle against mech heavy armies such as IG and BA Razor-spam.

IMO play whichever build you feel comfortable with.

Artemo wrote:
the main things the second list has is some fearsome mobility from the interceptor-spam which could be useful for objective contesting/grabbing in the late game, potentially useful tactical options from Grand Strategy and the Librarian's powers. Now I'm a huge fan of the Librarian in a list with Paladins and/or storm ravens and in fairness his Sanctuary power will be a tremendous asset for this list as it should interfere with a lot of assaults. But I think you might want to drop the warding stave, quicksilver (lots of halberds anyway and yiou don't really have an assault army) and consider taking Warp Rift instead of DE or just dropping DE altogether. The points saved could give the GM a psycannon. I think the Librarian wants to hide behind the lines in this list, not get mixed into close-quarters fighting.

But take the first list. I think it's much stronger.

I already have some pretty good tactics in mind using the mobility of the interceptors, and it doesn't involve just contesting/grabbing objectives. Rather, they're actually going to be the focal point of my offense. Now imagine 30 interceptors going to the flank of the army. Not too nasty? How about potentially 30 interceptors scouting due to the GM and then aided with the librarian's Might of Titans. Think they could make a mess of a mech parking lot? Quite possibly if pulled off properly.

I can possibly drop the warding stave, 1 servo-skull and 1 power to give my GM a psycannon....or I can raise the 9-striker unit to 10 w/2 psycannons and give my interceptors 1 more halberd each. Actually, that may be a better way to go:


Grey Knights 2500 List #2 - Interceptors-Foot-knights

Grandmaster - Rad Grenades
Librarian - Dark Excommunication, Might of Titan, Sanctuary, Shrouding, 2x Servo-skulls - 180

10x Strike Squads - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squads - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo
10x Strike Squads - 2x Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo

10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Psybolt Ammo
10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Psybolt Ammo
10x Interceptors - 2x Psycannons, 4x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Psybolt Ammo

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


But right now, it's looking more and more like I'll be taking my Purifier list.

The Unforgiven Saint wrote:Aren't the purifiers fearless? I would go with them. With ld 9 you fail it at the worst possible times.

Yeah, that's one of the things I really like about them. Many times, I've had my strikers (and even interceptors) break and fall back but not once has my purifiers fallen back yet.

Valkyrie wrote:I would say the first list. Judging from your previous reports your Interceptors seem to die pretty quickly, often losing whole squads at a time. The extra protection and mobility given by the Transports would probably serve better than Interceptors on foot.

I agree. Fearless purifiers in transports are much more resilient than interceptors out in the open. But my interceptors could survive. Normally, I use them as a harassing, anti-infantry unit that stays just outside of the threat range of more assaulty opponents. Against certain armies (like IG, Tau or MSU-MEQ armies), then I will play them more aggressively as my opponent should be more concerned with my assault than I am with theirs.

But I don't expect most of my interceptors to live through too many games. They are first and foremost sacrificial units that are meant to give me a tactical advantage over my opponents. The real units that need to survive are my strikers, especially in objectives-based games.

Reecius wrote:The second list is better for the missions in round 1. Two of the three are annihilation style missions, and as list two has half the kps and each is harder to get, I think it will perform better from a Meta perspective.

While that may be true, what list #2 lacks is the protection of transports. There's a reason why mech-lists are king right now and foot-armies are considered underdog armies. While my list #2 has the mobility to actually surpass #1, IMO it doesn't have as much resiliency. So while list #1 has almost double the KP's as list #2, list #2 is more likely to get tabled by an extremely nasty opponent like leafblower IG or even your very own Bjorn wolves.

Later on, I will analyze how I think either lists will stack up in each of the Ard Boyz scenario.

Grey Therion wrote:List #1 seems to me to be at least x2 times stronger than #2.

Have you had any practice games with List #1 and how did they go?

I also think #1 is the stronger list, though I don't know by how much as I haven't actually played with list #2 yet. Lol. Yeah, it's a new build but it's the type of footslogging build that I would probably use in a competitive environment.

I've actually had 1 game with a variant of list #1. In that list, I had 6 dreads instead and 5 purifiers + 1 striker squad. I played against an Ard Boyz DE list with Vect using scenario #1 (Kill points with the traitor) and I absolutely massacred him while also killing the traitor who was hiding (shunted my interceptors and stormboltered him to death). Now he wasn't running pure MSU DE, but he was a pretty experienced player and a good tactician. I don't think my list #2 would have fared as well against his list as he brought 2 uber-incubi units with FNP haemys and Vect. Actually, that game reminds me of our game. I was dominating his army for the most part until finally, he just said f*ck it and went all out aggressive, just like you did with your GK army against my nids. However, the difference here is that my purifiers are just too strong and that he didn't have the fortune that you had with your dreadknight wiping out most of my tyranids.

I replaced one of the dreads for the vindicare because I think 1) 5 dreads is probably enough and 2) you usually see a lot of land raiders at Ard Boyz tournaments.

SabrX wrote:Both lists are strong.

Reecius makes a compelling argument for the second list. It should do better in Annihilation missions and all those storm bolters should hold off horde. However, it may struggle against mech heavy armies such as IG and BA Razor-spam.

IMO play whichever build you feel comfortable with.

Without actually having played list #2 yet, I don't really want to say that it will do better in KP games. Because of it's low number of KP's, it would seem reasonable to make that assumption. However, my purifier knights have been dominating and I've nearly-tabled a few opponents with them before (or we stopped the games before it went that far). But I do think that list #2 is better against hordes despite the lack of Cleansing Flame. Against mech, there is no question list #1 is superior.

I haven't played list #2 yet. Hopefully I can get in 1 practice game before the tournament. But I think I'll feel right at home with list #2. I may even relish the challenge.

I like list #2 better.

That being said, you have 2 extremes and I would go with something more in the middle of both of them.

I'd hate to be the Daemons of Chaos player going against list #2.

I don;t know if you'd really have so much trouble with leaf blower with list 2. Particularly if you go first. You shunt all the interceptors right in the IG player's face, and shoot. The strikes run forward and are in range to shoot turn 2. After that, you just keep advancing and firing until you can assault and it's a wrap. The typical leaf blower these days is a combination of manticores and hydras, which are much worse against light mech spam than MEQs. What you would really have to fear would be Vendettas and Veterans. But again, apply massive pressure turn one with shunt moves, take out vendettas with Psyfilemen's, and you are assaulting turn 2. That means IG are toast.

Against Razorspam, again, you can hurt any of them with Pysbolt ammo.

This is all theory though, of course. Try both, but I think given the missions, you'd be better off with list 2.

list one tbh, or you will suffer template death,

grey knights are still nubs in powerarmour, they are good, uber if you want but die as easly, keep taht in mind...

Army number one has resillience in every way, army number two will suffer in straight out shootouts..

In list 2, why not take 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts instead of the 3 ordinary ones? More effective over the game and less KPs.

Valek wrote:list one tbh, or you will suffer template death,

grey knights are still nubs in powerarmour, they are good, uber if you want but die as easly, keep taht in mind...

Army number one has resillience in every way, army number two will suffer in straight out shootouts..

But what pie plates to you mean? It is uncommon to see ap3 pie anymore. It's all Manticores these days.

I suppose if you did come up against some random list that had Russ' and Bassies you'd suffer, but the typical "net" lists out there don't have the ability to sweep MEQs off the table anymore. Everything is geared towards killing av12 vehicles these days. Plasma vets would be the worst of it in a typical leaf blower list.

Honestly though, either list would be good. List 1 has more raw power, but I really do feel list 2 is the smarter meta choice.

Either way, it will be interesting to see how things go!

I think Reecius may have the right of it, but I still don't have enough GK practice to tell for sure.

List 1. List 2 is a little too gimmicky IMO; its interesting and will throw people off, but dunno if it has what it takes

Now I will be evaluating the 3 Ard Boyz scenarios and how my 2 potential lists will stack up to them. First of all, you can find the Ard Boyz scenarios here.


Scenario #1 - Git Dat Dirty Git!
This is a Kill Point mission using Pitched Battle deployment. There is a special rule - each player gives the other player a troop choice model. That "traitor" model is an Independent Character and worth 5KP's if killed.

A massacre is 10+ KP's, a major victory is 7-9 KP's and a minor victory is 1-6 KP's more than your opponent.


Special Rules: No Scout moves (but there is Outflanking) and Night Fight on turn 1.

With the exception of the traitor, this scenario isn't too different from regular Annihilation missions. As usual, this type of mission favors low KP armies and hurts MSU builds. However, the type of army that may benefit most from this scenario are certain deathstar builds. Try killing the traitor who is attached to the 10-man paladin unit with Draigo and librarian or the 10 assault terminators or the Swarmlord's unit with 3 tyrant guards and a Tyranid Prime. However, on the bright side, TWC hero-hammer wolves, nob bikers and jetseer councils will be severely hampered by the traitor's restrictive movement.

My list #2 (Interceptor knights) may possibly do better in this scenario with a lot less Kill Points than my list #1 (purifier-dreads). Also, attaching the traitor to my 10-man strikers with the Grandmaster and a Librarian casting Shrouding makes him much more resilient than attaching him to my 5-man purifier units.

Then again, I know my purifier-knights have the potential to table/dominate opponents. The interceptors? I'm not so sure.


Advantage: List #2 - Interceptor Knights.



Scenario #2 - Whoz Got Da Motz!
This is a modified Seize Ground mission using Spearhead deployment. There are 5 objectives, with 1 objective in the very center of the board and 4 objectives each in the center of the table quarters. The center objective is worth 4 points, each objective in the players' deployment zones are worth 1 point, and the 2 objectives in the empty table quarters are worth 2 points each.

A massacre is 5 or more objectives points than your opponent, major victory is 3-4 more points and minor victory is 1-2 more points than your opponent.


Special Rules: 6 turns only. Wow...no infiltrating, scouting or outflanking! Night-fighting on Turn 6.

I can see this scenario hurting foot lists, especially if they go up against an IG leafblower list. Cannot infiltrate or outflank units like genestealers or kroots, so you either leave them in normal reserves or deploy them on the board all nicely clustered up due to spearhead. Have fun against a template/blast-heavy army. At least this will give daemons a chance against armies with a lot of infiltrators (stealer-shock nids or kroot-heavy Tau). It also helps a little against Warp Quake grey knights, though the only real solution against them is to go first.

While my interceptor-knights have the mobility to easily reach any of the objectives, they will get hurt if I go up against blast-heavy armies and don't get first turn. Also, while Grand Strategy will give me more scoring units, I'm not sure that my foot-knights have the resiliency to hold objectives like my mechanized purifiers can. While the number of infantry in my footlist is 2x that of my purifier army, LD9 means that 3 out of 4 times, a unit is going to break. And so far, I've only lost all my purifiers in only 1 game ever.


Advantage: List #1 - Purifier-Dreads.



Scenario #3 - Head of Da Snake!
This scenario uses Victory Points and the Dawn of War deployment. Each general also nominates 1 HQ choice. That HQ is worth 2x VP's. Pretty straight-forwards scenario.

Massacre = 1126-2500 more VP's than your opponent. Major victory = 751-1125 more VP's. Minor victory = 376-750 VP's more than your opponent.


Special Rules: No scouting and no infiltrating (there is outflanking though).

Victory Points are the forte of MSU-armies. So you kill a rhino? In normal games, that would give you 1KP but here, you only get 35-40 VP's. So while in a KP game, if you kill all 6 of my rhinos, I'm down quite a lot with 6 KP's lost. However, in VP missions, I've only lost 240pts out of my 2500pts army. That's not even 10% of my army! Victory points are what makes MSU-armies so damned tough. You could kill 5 of my units, but I just need to kill 1 of your more expensive units and I'll still be ahead. Without a doubt, my purifier-dread list, which is a MSU-army, should have the advantage here.


Advantage: List #1 - Purifier-Dreads.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackmoor wrote:I like list #2 better.

That being said, you have 2 extremes and I would go with something more in the middle of both of them.

I have thought about a list with a mix of the 2....but couldn't really find one that I really liked. So either I take my battle-tested purifier-dreads or I wanted to go all infantry with interceptors as my central focus and maximum stormbolter fire. I've even considered a list with 30 interceptors, 1 unit of terminators and 50 stormbolter henchmen backed by 3 dreads and led by Coteaz and Karamazov. That would be a really fun list, but I just didn't have the models.

Anyways, it's looking more and more like that purifier-dreads will be the one I will be taking. Well, at least they're already finished and I don't have to do much work on that army (compared to my all-infantry interceptor list).

SabrX wrote:I'd hate to be the Daemons of Chaos player going against list #2.

They wouldn't have to worry about Warp Quake though. I would give them a chance to land so that I can blast the heck out of them with my stormbolters.

Reecius wrote:I don;t know if you'd really have so much trouble with leaf blower with list 2. Particularly if you go first. You shunt all the interceptors right in the IG player's face, and shoot. The strikes run forward and are in range to shoot turn 2. After that, you just keep advancing and firing until you can assault and it's a wrap. The typical leaf blower these days is a combination of manticores and hydras, which are much worse against light mech spam than MEQs. What you would really have to fear would be Vendettas and Veterans. But again, apply massive pressure turn one with shunt moves, take out vendettas with Psyfilemen's, and you are assaulting turn 2. That means IG are toast.

Against Razorspam, again, you can hurt any of them with Pysbolt ammo.

This is all theory though, of course. Try both, but I think given the missions, you'd be better off with list 2.

Yeah, I really need some practice with list #2. Never used that list yet, though I have almost all the models.

Valek wrote:list one tbh, or you will suffer template death,

grey knights are still nubs in powerarmour, they are good, uber if you want but die as easly, keep taht in mind...

Army number one has resillience in every way, army number two will suffer in straight out shootouts..

The only template/blast army they really fear is IG with 9 russes. But it seems as if that is a dying build, just as land raider-spam is. My only concern is playing this type of army in Spearhead where I can't spread my guys out. Against such an army, I may have to reserve most of my army, leaving just the GM + 1 squad on the board and out of LOS so that he can bring in the rest of the army using Psychic Communion.

Artemo wrote:In list 2, why not take 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts instead of the 3 ordinary ones? More effective over the game and less KPs.

Because of volume of fire. I don't really care if they die. My interceptor-build isn't that KP-heavy anyways. What I do prefer though is the 12 TL-shots over the increased resiliency. It's the same reason why I have about 30 strikers instead of 2 smallish strike units and 1 purifier unit. In this type of army, I want the numbers.

Mannahnin wrote:I think Reecius may have the right of it, but I still don't have enough GK practice to tell for sure.

You probably will as GK's are starting to climb up in the tournament scene (assuming you go to tournaments often). But foot-GK's are really an untested build, at least in the tournament scene. Most people there tend to flock towards mech-GK's unless they're playing paladins.

It's also a reason why I want to give them (my interceptor-knights) a try at a competitive event.

Zid wrote:List 1. List 2 is a little too gimmicky IMO; its interesting and will throw people off, but dunno if it has what it takes

Not really. It's kind of like footdar or an all-jump-infantry BA army. They're a very tactical army that doesn't necessarily have to rely on a gimmick to win (though that just helps them to win faster). The GK alpha-strike is just like any other alpha-strike army. You can alpha-strike to cripple the opponent, but it's got enough balance in it that you don't have to rely on just that tactic. But you have to know how to play them. Yes, they do require more thought in terms of strategy compared to, say, my purifier dreads, but if you're a savvy general, IMO they can be a very good army just like footdar.

I'd probably go for the Purifier Dread list. it seems the tougher of the two lists and is much harder to defend against than the 2nd list may be IMHO.
At the very least, what really sells it for me is that you know it that much better; you've had so much more experience with it.

Whilst it does suffer more in KP games as Reece (and others) so rightly pointed out, you're still a GK army so would probably still have less KP than many and the Dreads at least should be a tough cookie for your opponent to gain kill points from.
The only thing bugging me with list 1 is that it doesn't seem to have that much depth to me; at 2500pts you can afford LOTS, but the heard of your lists is still 5-man MeQ squads, which at 2500pts may be relatively easy to take out it seems. I'm just not sure it has the depth a list at such a pts level should have.
Personally, I'm thinking that you may do better to replace 2 Purifier Squads (and a Dread?+) with a 10-man squad of Strikes or Purifiers (or even Termies or Pali's) and a Land Raider.
I believe a 10-man squad would have greater sticking power, as would a Land Raider. With the AV14 and all the Dreads and remaining rhinos you'd be fine with armour saturation, whilst you'd half the number of kill points these units would give away...

Just my thoughts man.

Unfortunately, that is one of the limitations of purifier-dread army - it's eliteness. I basically took my 2K and asked myself, what do I want to do with it? First of all, I wanted more scoring, so I added 1 more squad of purifiers (at 200+ pts per). Then, I felt that I could use more shooting at 2.5K so I added another dread (135pts). Finally, I felt I needed to address its main weakness - mobility. Initially, I was thinking stormraven at first but thought that with just 1 stormraven, it would be too much of a target and easily shot down. But finally, I settled on a smallish 5-man unit of interceptors. They're small enough that they wouldn't be considered a high priority target.

I had also considered a land raider for some more durability. That would mean I would have to give up either more bodies (troops) or my mobility (interceptors). In my LR-list, I could only fit 5 scoring units in there with one of them being a strike squad.

Anyways, I wasn't as comfortable with either of those lists as I am with my current one. So far in all my games using my purifier-dread build (with just 25 troop infantry at 2K), only in 2 games did I lose all my infantry (against Tau and tyranids). Overall, I find that those 5-man units are pretty resilient, especially with my dreads blowing away any guns that could potentially hurt them from range. Also, 5-man units are easier to hide out of LOS. They can actually hide behind a wrecked rhino even. That helps to increase their survivability as well.

I have a practice match coming up tomorrow against a very competitive, mechanized BA army. I've decided to bring my Purifier-dread army, though if time permits, I may be able to get in 2 games and use both lists. Anyways, this is his list:



2500 Blood Angels
Librarian – Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
Honour Guard – 2x Meltaguns, Las/plas Razorback
Librarian – Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
Honour Guard – 2x Meltaguns, Las/plas Razorback

5x Assault Marines – 1x Flamer, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Flamer, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Flamer, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Meltagun, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Meltagun, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Meltagun, Las/plas Razorback

Baal Predator – TL-Asscan, Heavy Bolter Sponsoons
Baal Predator – TL-Asscan, Heavy Bolter Sponsoons
2x Land Speeder Typhoons – Heavy Bolter

Predator – Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsoons
Predator – Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsoons
Predator – Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsoons



If my purifiers can handle this list, then they can handle any type of MSU-mech list. Question is, can they handle it? Thoughts?

Eh, if you dumped the interceptors and rhinos and bought razorbacks with psybolt ammo in their place, that crowe list would be a lot better

Fire points say no!

EDIT:

I believe Fortitude will dominate the match. These are just too many psycannons to bear, and your infantry outclasses his in all aspects. Finally, you're infantry can kill his tanks. His can't... at least it has more difficulties and range problems. And you're can easily dominate his infantry too.

This could be a tough matchup. If you get first turn you can cause a lot of damage to his razorbacks though the preds are a little tougher to handle This gives you the advantage of forcing his infantry to move forward on foot and you can effectively stay out of melta range and have a lot less lascannons to worry about. If he gets first turn he can do the exact same thing to your rhinos. Smart decisions will have to be made for whoever gets 2nd turn since you both have some significant firepower in your lists. Castling up away from some some of the firepower would be my suggestion, but knowing that the BA transports are fast may hamper that...Honestly I don't know who would win, but it seems to me it will be an uphill battle for GK.

That was the sort of armielist i was thinking your footknights will just die in droves. ap2 shooting deluxe... but coupled with vindicators a bit like Mercer is playing.

I think you wont make much chance tbh, you will need first turn! and he has two hoods to stop overuse of fortitude...

Wow. that is a very powerful list...
I think I have to agree with the sentiments that whomever gets 1st turn gets a significant advantage, but that could also depend on terrain coverage too, so I really couldn't say in advance...
In Dawn of War or an objective game I'd probably favour the Grey Knights but it's a very tricky decision clearly!

I look forward to hearing how it goes man, good luck. I understand your decision regarding the Land Raider too, although I'm really not sold on the 5-man interceptors yet...

Practice Ard Boyz game against mechanized BA - I played against a heavily proxied game using Witch Hunter/Space Wolf count-as Blood Angels. We used Ard Boyz scenario #3. This report will be briefer and not as detailed as my usual reports as we kind of rushed through it in order to try to get another game in.


Grey Knights 2500 List #1 - Purifier-Dread Spam (My list)

Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Halberds, 1x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo



2500 Blood Angels
Librarian – Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
Honour Guard – 2x Meltaguns, Las/plas Razorback
Librarian – Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius
Honour Guard – 2x Meltaguns, Las/plas Razorback

5x Assault Marines – 1x Flamer, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Flamer, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Flamer, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Meltagun, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Meltagun, Las/plas Razorback
5x Assault Marines – 1x Meltagun, Las/plas Razorback

Baal Predator – TL-Asscan, Heavy Bolter Sponsoons
Baal Predator – TL-Asscan, Heavy Bolter Sponsoons
2x Land Speeder Typhoons – Heavy Bolter

Predator – Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsoons
Predator – Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsoons
Predator – Autocannon, Lascannon Sponsoons


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Scenario #3 - Head of Da Snake!

Mission: Victory Points - 1 nominated HQ unit worth 2x VP's.

Blood Angels - 1 Honour Guards.

Grey Knights - Crowe.

Deployment: Dawn of War

Initiative: Grey Knights

Massacre = 1126-2500 more VP's than your opponent. Major victory = 751-1125 more VP's. Minor victory = 376-750 VP's more than your opponent.

Special Rules: No scouting and no infiltrating (there is outflanking though).


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Map of the terrain:


My deployment:


I deploy 2 empty purifier rhinos up around the 24" deployment line and in cover. Actually, looking at the photo now, it looks as if I deployed 1 rhino a little too far forwards. I have no reserves. Everything will be coming in on Turn 1.

BA deploys nothing. Everything will walk on. He fails to seize.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 1

Everything moves in and runs/pops smoke. 2 deployed rhinos double backwards. Despite his models on the table, my opponent is not actually on the board yet. His units will be coming in on his turn.


Blood Angels 1

Now he moves on. Immolators are las/plas razors. Predators only have autocannon turrets, and the 2 leman russes are actually proxied baal predators. His 2 baals pop smoke. All his other vehicles fail to spot any of my units.


Grey Knights 2

Interceptors move towards the left flank (from my perspective). The sword dies to dangerous terrain. They then run.


I didn't think my vindicare has good LOS/range so I opt to run him up the ruins instead. Foot purifiers run forwards. Dreads move up the ruins for cover.


Crowe, who hitched a ride on a rhino last turn, zooms forwards and pops smoke. The red bead on the rhino is to indicate that it already popped smoke.


Despite smoke, my shooting shakes 3 predators, including the 2 baals. I also blow off one of the baal's assault cannons as well as immobilise 1 heavy predator. Overall, my shooting was mediocre this turn.


Blood Angels 2

Librarian disembarks from his razor in order to cast Blood Lance. His razors and speeders then move out of cover to shoot.


More movement. BA get ready to bring on the pain.


Every tank moves to be able to get a shot off. You've got to love BA vehicles. Move 6" and still fire every single gun. No wonder they're such a good army. And his razors are protected by AV13 tanks!


He blows up my lead rhino. Luckily, no one dies in the explosion.


He then destroys 1 regular dread despite cover with his squad of land speeders.

He also immobilises Crowe's rhino.

Actually, I got off light this turn as he missed with a lot of his lazorbacks and I made maybe 2/3 of my cover.


Grey Knights 3

GK movement (not much).


Crowe disembarks from his rhino and tries to pull back. I roll 1,1 for my movement and then a 2 for my running. Well, he didn't get very far. That's a 300VP lascannon-bait next turn.


My shooting stuns and blows off both guns on his honour guard's razor. I also wreck one of his land speeders and shake the other one.


Here my shooting turns deadly. Dread blows up the middle predator. Then psycannons wreck the baal and another predator.


Finally, my left dreads explode his last heavy predator.

Wow! I downed 4 AV13 predators and 1 land speeder in 1 turn of shooting! My opponent couldn't make a cover save if his life depended on it, and then I would roll 5 and 6's on the damage charts. Ouch!


Blood Angels 3

Severely behind, my opponent decides he needs to play more aggressively. So he moves full throttle. Baal moves only 6" though.


On the left flank, his 3 razors go after my interceptors and 1 purifier squad.


His miserable razor shooting continues, and he only manages to stun my vendread and shake 1 rhino with all those lascannons and twin-linked plasmas.


Grey Knights 4
I hardly move anything (maybe just 1 dread). There was no need to.


I blow up his last predator and 1 razorback. My purifiers then whittle down his 5-man assault squad to just 2. They pass morale and pinning.


I also wreck 1 razor on the right as well as immobilise, weapon destroy and stun 2 other razors.


On the left, I can't seem to wreck any of his razors with 2 dreads, the vindicare and 2 squads of psycannon guys, though I do a lot of other damage.


Blood Angels 4

My opponent goes for broke. On the right, his honour guard rhino move 12" and everyone disembarks.


On the left side, everyone gets out as well.


Typhoon pops out to take some shots.

His plan? Blow up my rhino and then insta-kill Crowe behind it.


Unfortunately for him, it takes all 3 squads (with 4 meltas) and his land speeder typhoon just to blow up my rhino thanks to cover. Crowe will live to fight another day.


Lastly, he wrecks my left purifier rhino.


Grey Knights 5

Purifiers and interceptor go after his honour guards (his nominated HQ unit). Fortunately for him, the librarian with a unit of assault marines is in their way.


I felt it unsporting to hide Crowe, so instead, he moves forwards as does my purifiers. My shooting kills 3 from 1 assault squad and 1 from his honour guards. I also immobilise both razors as well as stun the rear one.


I believe it was my psycannons that downs his last speeder.


I still cannot kill a razorback on the left flank with 2 dreads firing at them. Vindicare aims for his librarian with a turbo-penetrator round and he goes to ground to avoid a headshot kill.


Crowe and purifiers then assault his honour guards and wipe them out. Crowe cannot consolidate far enough to get out of LOS of his meltas next turn.


Finally, my 3 interceptors kill off all but 2 assault marines. His librarian wipes out my 2 halberds. In return, my hammer flattens his librarian. They remain locked in combat.


Blood Angels 5
This will be the last turn as we were trying to get another game in using my list #2 (Interceptor GK list) afterwards.

He aims 2 meltas at Crowe....but fails to take him out (missing with 1 and rolling 1 to wound with the other)! However, 1 bolt pistol penetrates Crowe's armor to cause 1W to him.


He then charges both squads into Crowe. I cast Cleansing Flame and kill off 2 assault marines, but then Crowe whiffs on his attacks, failing to do any damage at all. Now he's got both squads charging with Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy. He scores 6 wounds on Crowe....and I manage to make all my saves! Crowe lives yet again!


On the bright side, he wipes out both my purifiers and my interceptors on the left side to make the game a little closer.


Aftermath of the carnage.

He kills 780 VP's worth of my units. I kill 1805 VP's of his so I end up with 1025pts for a Major Victory. I also gets 2 bonus points because Crowe lived and also because I killed off all of his Fast Attacks. If only Crowe didn't take 1W from his bolt pistol shot, that would have given me a Massacre. Oh well. I was expecting Crowe to die anyways. Against this army, I'll take whatever victory I can get.



Majory Victory to the Grey Knights!!!

Nice rep. I hope in Ard Boyz cover saves are just as good to you, lol.

I would also suggest getting another practise game in letting the BA player take first turn. It will give you a disadvantage and improve your game. Just my opinion of course.

Congrats on the win.

ivangterrace wrote:Eh, if you dumped the interceptors and rhinos and bought razorbacks with psybolt ammo in their place, that crowe list would be a lot better

While psybacks are nice, with purifiers, I prefer the rhino because of their 2 psycannons. The way I look at it, you're paying extra for double the shooting at only half the efficiency.

the weird one wrote:Fire points say no!

EDIT:

I believe Fortitude will dominate the match. These are just too many psycannons to bear, and your infantry outclasses his in all aspects. Finally, you're infantry can kill his tanks. His can't... at least it has more difficulties and range problems. And you're can easily dominate his infantry too.

I hope so. He's got 2 psychic hoods to try to stop my Fortitude as well as at least a 5+ cover for all his vehicles.

I think it's going to come out to who has the more effective shooting.

Lukus83 wrote:This could be a tough matchup. If you get first turn you can cause a lot of damage to his razorbacks though the preds are a little tougher to handle This gives you the advantage of forcing his infantry to move forward on foot and you can effectively stay out of melta range and have a lot less lascannons to worry about. If he gets first turn he can do the exact same thing to your rhinos. Smart decisions will have to be made for whoever gets 2nd turn since you both have some significant firepower in your lists. Castling up away from some some of the firepower would be my suggestion, but knowing that the BA transports are fast may hamper that...Honestly I don't know who would win, but it seems to me it will be an uphill battle for GK.

It definitely is. IMO razor-spam BA is probably their most competitive build. Although I have confidence in my own army, I can't say for sure that I will take this. Then again, my opponent is going to be in for a tough fight himself. But he does have a huge mobility advantage in that he can quickly redeploy if necessary. All his tanks can move 18"! If we end up playing Scenario #2 (modified Seize Ground), I think he has a major advantage.

Valek wrote:
That was the sort of armielist i was thinking your footknights will just die in droves. ap2 shooting deluxe... but coupled with vindicators a bit like Mercer is playing.

I think you wont make much chance tbh, you will need first turn! and he has two hoods to stop overuse of fortitude...

I'm not sold on the vindicators. I probably wouldn't use more than 1 in my mech-BA list if I was to use them.

Honestly, I don't think it's whoever has 1st turn will have the advantage. I think it's whoever has the 1st effective shooting turn will take the game.

Just Dave wrote:Wow. that is a very powerful list...
I think I have to agree with the sentiments that whomever gets 1st turn gets a significant advantage, but that could also depend on terrain coverage too, so I really couldn't say in advance...
In Dawn of War or an objective game I'd probably favour the Grey Knights but it's a very tricky decision clearly!

I look forward to hearing how it goes man, good luck. I understand your decision regarding the Land Raider too, although I'm really not sold on the 5-man interceptors yet...

It is....and I helped my opponent to build it. First turn will help, but I think whoever has the 1st effective shooting turn will take this game and not necessarily whoever has 1st turn.

In Seize Ground, honestly, I would give BA the advantage. I may have the advantage in KP games and in Victory Points, it's going to be a toss-up.

The 5-man interceptor squad will be more of a harassment and distraction unit. I don't think they will really effective, but they're mainly there to give me some much needed mobility.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lukus83 wrote:Nice rep. I hope in Ard Boyz cover saves are just as good to you, lol.

I would also suggest getting another practise game in letting the BA player take first turn. It will give you a disadvantage and improve your game. Just my opinion of course.

Congrats on the win.

I'm actually having a rematch against him again this Thurs. He's going to be bringing the same BA mech-list, but I will be using my Interceptor list against it because I didn't get the chance to use them this time (we ran out of time for our 2nd game).

He's also bringing another very nasty list for our game #2 - Deathwing!

Why is it nasty? 45 assault terminators with 9 cyclone missile launchers, Belial and some multi-melta bikes. That's why.

To put my two cents in it's always more fun to play the list you like rather then the list you say is more powerful.

The BA list seesm to narrow in it's focus. If it doesn't play against a light mech list it looks to have trouble. Many foot lists should have great success against it. He needs a counter attack element to kick things out of his lines or to assault the enemy off an objective.

This is Ard Boyz. How is he going to get rid of pathfinders in cover on an objective? Shoot them with a lascannon? How does he whittle down Ork Hordes before they crash his lines? How does he get Ghaz & co. out of his lines once the BW gets him there? How does he stop a Draigowing list from rolling up multiple tanks in assault? A lone lascannon can't stop the Paladins when Draigo is attached. Here's the kicker. What does he do when 3 full squads of Marine Bikes and a Marine Command squad turbo into his face and threaten meltagun and krak grenade death?

Lists are about solving problems. The BA list can solve one problem to the exclusion of so many others.

Sorry I am so overly critical. I don't mean to be. I apologize. For what he has I think he would have had some success outflanking the Baals. That way they get side shots on the Dreads and he can deny them cover. I also think he should have reserved everything. This would insure all his vehicles would get the first shot as they roll on. Having so many vehicles deployed at once gives your dreads good shots everywhere. If half of them are off the table, then the half that come on can hug cover and deny some dreads shots on turn 3 (the dreads first chance to shoot if he reserves everything). The more turns he denies the dreads a shot the better his chances in a VP game.

DarthDiggler wrote:The BA list seesm to narrow in it's focus. If it doesn't play against a light mech list it looks to have trouble. Many foot lists should have great success against it. He needs a counter attack element to kick things out of his lines or to assault the enemy off an objective.

This is Ard Boyz. How is he going to get rid of pathfinders in cover on an objective? Shoot them with a lascannon? How does he whittle down Ork Hordes before they crash his lines? How does he get Ghaz & co. out of his lines once the BW gets him there? How does he stop a Draigowing list from rolling up multiple tanks in assault? A lone lascannon can't stop the Paladins when Draigo is attached. Here's the kicker. What does he do when 3 full squads of Marine Bikes and a Marine Command squad turbo into his face and threaten meltagun and krak grenade death?

Lists are about solving problems. The BA list can solve one problem to the exclusion of so many others.

Sorry I am so overly critical. I don't mean to be. I apologize. For what he has I think he would have had some success outflanking the Baals. That way they get side shots on the Dreads and he can deny them cover. I also think he should have reserved everything. This would insure all his vehicles would get the first shot as they roll on. Having so many vehicles deployed at once gives your dreads good shots everywhere. If half of them are off the table, then the half that come on can hug cover and deny some dreads shots on turn 3 (the dreads first chance to shoot if he reserves everything). The more turns he denies the dreads a shot the better his chances in a VP game.

I think it is a very good all-comer's list that has little weakness. It can take on any type of army, be it heavy mech, deathstar-type armies or hordes. He's got 15 vehicles, of which 5 has AV13, 2 are skimmers that can move flat-out 24" and all can move 18" if necessary. I wouldn't really care about pathfinders on an objective when I can have multiple tanks tank-shocking them off the objectives in just 1-2 turns of moving flat-out from my deployment zone. Battlewagons have the weakness of AV12 (or AV11?) side armor. You only need deploy in opposite corners to force them to split off, thus denying half the army the KFF protection, and then shoot them at the sides. You stop deathstar units like draigowing paladins and others by screening them out. Sure I may lose 2 vehicles, but next turn, they're going to have to endure another turn of shooting from my entire army again. Volume of low-AP fire will just kill them, and there's only so much Draigo can soak up before he's dead as well. Besides, they'll be hitting the tanks on 6's if the BA general has any common sense at all.

Hordes? How does tank shocking them with 2 tanks and then flaming them with any of the 3 flamer-squads sound? Then you've got baals with 10-shots each and 2 typhoons with 4 frag blasts and 6 heavy bolter shots. As for the biker marines, who's got more deadly firepower? 12 meltas who can't shoot because they've just turbo-boosted to their graves? Or 14 lascannon shots, 16 -plasmas, 4 missile launchers and a plethora of heavy bolter, assault cannon, meltas, flamers and rapid-fire shots? Are you going to tell me that a majority of those bikers are still going to be standing after that?!? And heavy-mech (a la land raider-spam) can stay away and trade shots with a bunch of lascannons or come close and eat melta. All the while, the BA army is getting 5+/4+ cover.

Yes, it's not perfect. Fateweaver-daemons will give it some problem, as will other ultra-shooty MSU-type armies will (probably GK dread-spam, SW long-fang or TWC lists and perhaps IG but even these will not be easy battles). But it's a damn hard list to beat effectively. 90% of 40k builds will probably have problems against them.

And don't worry, I am not offended by any poster who wants to give constructive criticism. I see the reasons behind your arguments. You want to point out some of the weaknesses in the BA build. But where you see flaws, I don't really see them as any that this BA list cannot overcome. He could have outflanked the baals, but I think what he thought was more of a priority was to protect his other tanks. A wall of AV13 vehicles with cover is really hard to take down. He felt that to be much more important than to try to gain a little advantage from side shots at dreads (which BTW has the same side armor as their front). And with no way to bring them in early, he could risk them coming in the late game and not contributing at all. As for reserves, he and I are of the same thought. Better to bear your full firepower on the enemy than to do so bits at a time. With the resiliency of 5 AV13 vehicles with 4+/5+ cover, he stood a good chance of overcoming most opponents even if they were to go first. It was a gamble in strategy, but it wasn't a very risky gamble. It just happened that I rolled well and he didn't....again (the same thing happened to his Tau army the last time he played against me).

Basically, it boils down to this. He's got more guns than me and quite a bit of resiliency. He actually has more to gain probably 90% of the time in a straight shoot-out.

No offense, I read all your reports and you are a god player but your opponent played that list HORRIBLY, I mean even if the dice were average instead of horrible to him.

First, why did he roll everything on across the center? He gave you range with your entire army, when if he had gone 18 on his turn 1 instead of 6" (?!) lets say on your right flank and castled up, you would have lost line of sight (or range) with a size able portion of your force.
The way he came onto the table, hesitantly, with night fight rolls makes no sense to me, then later he split his force into what looked like 3 parts, again I am only stressing this because that is not a good practice game for you at all, a better player would not have given you all those money shots on your turn two...

Secondly, how on earth do you guys justify dreadnoughts climbing up into ruins?!?! where I play they wouldn't allow you to do that, Thats like saying your tanks can ram up onto other floors of those building in my opinion, maybe not that silly....but close... I am pretty sure that just because the terrain rules were glossed over in the rulebook they didn't intend on armless dreadnoughts climbing up crumbling buildings...

Again, I know your list is competitive but that was so poorly executed I think you need to play that list again...

Any who I hope you make it through the tournament ending in 1st ; ) I think you have a strong couple of builds here.

To be fair, this was actually my opponent, SabrX's first time playing Blood Angels. He's always been interested in BA as the only MEQ army that he would probably try out. You can say that this was a "test" game for him to see if he wanted to go mech or DoA BA.

I think he came in through the center because:

1) To take advantage of the only 2 terrain where he can hide behind until it was his turn to shoot.

2) So that he could use his twin-linked plasmas as well. If he castled off in the corner, they would've been wasted.

3) Baals would've been wasted in the corners.

4) My dreads could've still got to him had he came in from the corners.

5) He under-estimated the power of 8 psycannon shots.

6) He was confident of the resiliency of his AV13 wall of tanks with cover.

7) He started off playing more cautious than aggressive.

8) Actually, I didn't really have LOS to most of his razorbacks due to them being behind buildings. The only vehicles I could really see were his AV13 preds.

9) This was his very first game with Blood Angels.


Overall, I didn't think his tactics were bad or anything. I just out-rolled him this game dice-wise. Plus, I had the experience factor.


And why can't dreads go up buildings? Please show me in the rules where it says they can't. Actually, I'll save you the time. Look on p.83 of the BRB (under Moving Within Ruins).

I may play this list again, but if I do so, it'll probably with my other Interceptor-GK list. Or I will probably play his competitive Deathwing with my purifiers.

Red Corsair wrote:No offense, I read all your reports and you are a god player but your opponent played that list HORRIBLY, I mean even if the dice were average instead of horrible to him.

First, why did he roll everything on across the center? He gave you range with your entire army, when if he had gone 18 on his turn 1 instead of 6" (?!) lets say on your right flank and castled up, you would have lost line of sight (or range) with a size able portion of your force.

Grey Knights are lethal at close range. If my forces extended too far, jy2 could easily pop my transports and assaults disembarked occupants. In mech vs. mech battle, one side tries to disable the other side's mobility or ranged fire power and then take full advantage of mobility. I attempted that, but my dice fell short.

In hindsight I probably should have focused my forces on the left flank. At the time, my firebase revolved around the two buildings, which did a splendid job blocking TLOS.

The way he came onto the table, hesitantly, with night fight rolls makes no sense to me, then later he split his force into what looked like 3 parts, again I am only stressing this because that is not a good practice game for you at all, a better player would not have given you all those money shots on your turn two...

This was also my first time playing Razorspam. I'm not accustomed to utilizing the fast vehicle's advantage in moving farther than normal vehicles.

I took risks for chance of greater rewards. I was counting on the Predators to weather out the shooting and obscure my Razorbacks. jy2's dice were hot. I didn't expect all 6 Predators to be gone in a couple of turns to shooting. 70% of the time I failed my cover saves. Turn 2, most of my Razorbacks missed. I'm no convinced TL-Lascanons are the way to go. jy2 effectively silenced my guns. Had it been closer to average, most of my Razorbacks wouldn't be stunned or weapon destroyed, and able to return fire.

Secondly, how on earth do you guys justify dreadnoughts climbing up into ruins?!?! where I play they wouldn't allow you to do that, Thats like saying your tanks can ram up onto other floors of those building in my opinion, maybe not that silly....but close... I am pretty sure that just because the terrain rules were glossed over in the rulebook they didn't intend on armless dreadnoughts climbing up crumbling buildings...

That's just how we play it. I can't speak for the vast majority, but walkers moves in terrain like infantry and as long as it can fit, it's fair game. You'll find real world logic fails in 40k table top game. It doesn't make much sense that a Leman Russ could fire point blank and have it's shot scatter back on top of it. It doesn't make much sense that snipers (except for telion and Vindicarre) can't select and pick off their targets. It doesn't make sense that in assault, casualty can be removed in the back rather than in the front. It doesn't make sense that a Space Marine can leap high into the air and wack a Valkyrie high off the ground with a powerfist. See where I'm going with this?

Overall, I think jy2 did an excellent job this game. There aren't many armies out there that can outgun Purifier/Psyrifle Dread list. jy2's list passed the Razorspam list with flying colors.

I think the Blood Angels list is definitely one that Grey Knights should fear on paper. Lots of plasma and lots of melta and lots of lascannon. I thought both players made intelligent use of smoke and cover. I do think the Blood Angels should probably have moved in faster (which seems counter-intuitive as the GK are the 'mid-range' army, but I think a lot of 'best play with/play against GK' is actually counter-intuitive, or rather counter-prevailing doctrine) to unload and use the melta and offer a mix of close range and long range threats and generally try and get the GK player to spread his fire. It's possible that a converging attack from the Blood Angels with half their vehicles deployed on either side of their board edge might have helped. Getting first turn was, I think, a significant advantage and the dice did seem to go with jv2 and against SabrX (but you have to cater for bad dice as much as you can). In the end, Sabr X did move in, but I think it was delayed too long (it is, however, very easy to win the game with hindsight).

Thanks for another great report -- and it's always nice to have both players chipping in.

Yeah, the BA army definitely is scary on paper. It's also actually kind of scary on the tabletop too. It does suffer from the Parking Lot syndrome, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing considering the mobility that it has. While more experienced players can exploit that with savvy tactics (such as attacking from a flank and using the opponent's own vehicles for cover and to deny LOS), mech-BA is probably the only other army besides DE/mechdar that wouldn't be bothered that much as they can more easily redeploy with minimal loss of firepower.

To play it differently from what he had would have required experience that he did not have yet (though SabrX is a good player, this was only his first game with BA ever). Common sense tactics would dictate him to stand and shoot because his list is first and foremost a very shooty army. Also, basic tactics would tell him to stay away from my psycannons and also out of range of my assaulting purifiers. What non-assaulty army would want to rush into the arms of force-weapon-toting grey knights? It wasn't until he found that his tactic was not working did he rush in, but by that time, it was too little too late. The damage was already done to his army. I don't think his tactics were off-based. I do think that the dice did skewer the results somewhat. Had it been more average, this game would probably have been much closer. I just created a hurdle that he just couldn't overcome. I mean, 5 AV13 predators with cover destroyed in basically just 2 turns?!? While I have confidence in my shooting, even I didn't expect that.

I do think the idea of splitting his forces into 2 and coming in from opposite corners is definitely a viable one. And against a fast army (a la battle-wagon orks, nob bikers or TWC space wolves), that is definitely something I would have considered. But how that tactic would work against my army? I don't think it would have made too much of a difference, because my army is the type of army that would just happily sit there and trade shots with my 48" autocannons. Then I would have just moved 3 units of purifiers to within psycannon range of each flank, sat them down and traded shots.

1st turn can be mitigated with clever deployment. Even though my opponent went 2nd, he came in in such a way that I couldn't really target his razors. The only thing that I could really shoot at were his AV13 tanks with cover, which was what he wanted. Honestly, my first turn of shooting wasn't really awesome. I just shook 3 of preds (2 baals), immobilised 1 and weapon destroyed the other. I didn't wreck any tanks yet. Then on his turn, his shooting stank as he missed with most of his razors. What really changed the tide of the game was my phenomenal shooting on turn 3 as I wrecked 4 preds and suppressed the shooting of some of his other vehicles.

I have one more (maybe 2 if we can fit both games in) practice game against SabrX tomorrow. Will let you guys know how that turns out.

A great batrep as usual. The sheer number of psycannons each turn, especially those that were able to get heavy classification due to not moving a few Rhinos, is really hard to stand up against. Good use of smoke and positioning to force him into your kill zone. I always learn a few new tricks from reading these batreps haha.

I think I can speak for more then myself that it is more easily justified that those dreadnoughts cant move up into the ruins, I hate when people try and say, "40k is a future game don't try and use logic or reasoning", that is a case of sheer idiocy. The examples you gave are not near the park in this case, those were a streamlining of the game in order to speed the game flow up, armless, or even any dread running up floors is stupid, I have let dreads start up on impassible before because its fair to imagine a thunder hawk placing it there prior to the conflict, but the opponent agreed it had to remain there. GW has also said that the rules don't cover every case and to use common sense when such scenarios arise or a die roll.... I don't think I am the only one who think that didn't merit a die roll and common sense would prevail... Again you two can justify it however you want, but I wouldn't count on using such a play outside your play group, so my suggestion was merely to prepare you for disappointment if a TO says "sorry pal no chance".

I don't want you to misinterpret my statement and think I am trying to be a jerk, I think it was a well played game by Jy2 (sorry SabreX) and you should have gotten the W without "mystical climbing dreads" ; )

Too SabreX, it's tough that it was your first launch of the list and not his first with his, I say you play your DeathWing death star and reapply some hate ; )

Also I would like to see you guys play the second scenario if it's up to a vote as I haven't seen anyone on here try it yet...

As jy2 said, it's in the rules. 'Only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and WALKERS may move on the upper levels of a ruin.'

So there's no 'I wouldn't count on using such a play outside your play group' involved, It is rules sanctioned.

Ok, first off, that terrain could be argued as impassible to his walkers considering his entire base doesn't fit on the floor if you want to be technical... but now go look at the images and explain how he got to the third floor in two turns from his table edge..... I am all ears, or eyes I guess lol...

Well each level is 3”. So to reach the third floor (or second storey as we in the civilised world would say...) requires 6”. He’s had two turns move and one turn’s run. Jv2 moved and (presumably ran) turn 1. Look at the dreadnought’s position in the photo. It’s consistent with a 6” move and a run roll of about 3”. Turn 2, dreads move up the ruins. Maybe he rolled a 6 on e one of his moves-through-cover. Or maybe he ran second turn too. Either way, it’s entirely possible.

Basically I think you're stretching here. The rule says quite clearly 'if the model can be physically placed'. clearly it could, there's nothing about base overlapping. In fact the photo of the jetbike on p83 of the rulebook clearly shows its base overhanging the terrain level. You're reaching to defend your supposition, not RAW or RAI. RAW and RAI it's legal placement. By the rules the moves are possible. I suggest that perhaps you should rethink your position.

Stormcrow wrote:A great batrep as usual. The sheer number of psycannons each turn, especially those that were able to get heavy classification due to not moving a few Rhinos, is really hard to stand up against. Good use of smoke and positioning to force him into your kill zone. I always learn a few new tricks from reading these batreps haha.

Thanks. Honestly, even I under-estimated how my psycannons would do. They've never done this much damage before. And if my batreps can help people with their game, then I'm glad. It's more motivation for me to keep churning out battle reports - to be able to help the 40k community on the whole.

Red Corsair wrote:
Also I would like to see you guys play the second scenario if it's up to a vote as I haven't seen anyone on here try it yet...

We will definitely play scenario #2 as that is the only I haven't played yet.

Artemo wrote:As jy2 said, it's in the rules. 'Only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and WALKERS may move on the upper levels of a ruin.'

So there's no 'I wouldn't count on using such a play outside your play group' involved, It is rules sanctioned.

Thanks for the rules quote. It's on p. 83 by the ways for those interested.

What I don't understand is why bikers, beasts and cavalry can't go up ruins? Sometimes, GW rules do boggle the mind.

Red Corsair wrote:Ok, first off, that terrain could be argued as impassible to his walkers considering his entire base doesn't fit on the floor if you want to be technical... but now go look at the images and explain how he got to the third floor in two turns from his table edge..... I am all ears, or eyes I guess lol...

If you want to play any ruins as impassable, it needs to be declared so at the beginning of the game. We didn't declare any of the terrain as impassable.

To to get him there, I moved, ran well and then moved 6" up the ruins. The ruins was a little less than 6" from my board edge. You only need 3" to make it to the next level of the ruins. I rolled a 6" for my movement so was able to move up 2 levels of ruins.

It may seem cheesy to some, but it really isn't. It's actually a legal tactic in the rulebook (moving walkers up ruins) and isn't even against the spirit of the rules to do so. Now if your group wants to play it that dreads can't move up ruins, that's fine. Just realize that it is your gaming group that is playing with a house-rule and not others.

I can see than manhandling bikes up steps/ladders would be so difficult as to be effectively impossible and cavalry for similar reasons (it would be damn near impossible to ride or even lead a horse up a steep flight of stairs in normal circumstances, never mind a battle). Beasts (of at least some sorts) rather less so (and actually some cavalry I could see climbing too, or stairs at least, if not ladders). But the whole thing's abstract enough that specific justifications ar easy to come up with but would make the rules even more unwieldy (my thunderwolves can run up stairs but not ladders... cue argument over whether the ruin has stairs or not...)

I forgot to add, I find your battle reports (and also those of others in your group, not least SabrX), hugely entertaining and more informative than the typical after action report. Please keep posting them so long as you have the will to do so.

Hey, I've just found this report and in pleasantly surprised to find that your first list is very similar to my own. I was wondering how well you like your interceptors. I found mine to be kind of lack luster but I've only used them once. Also I understand the use of dozers on your rhinos but I'm curious as to why you didn't try hunter killer missiles instead. I've been contemplating using them to aid my dreads with popping vehicles in the first few turns. 20 TL str 8 shots plus a few unlimited range str 8 missiles could shoot down quite a lot of mech while you move those rhinos into psycannon range.

Ha ha ok really.... So according to you it makes more sense to have a refrigerator with legs, choad legs at that, and no arms mind you, climb?????? Did I here you say climb, apparently where you come from arms aren't a requirement for scaling walls... Yes I would say it isn't in the spirit of the game where I play and according to my TO he would have had to stay level.... that was all my point was, he isn't gonna play me (unless he travels to Maine ha ha).... Just so we are square I DO NOT CARE HOW YOU RULE IT WHERE YOU ARE FROM, it is your own prerogative, I was simply suggesting to him that if he has the fortune to qualify for the second round this year and plays outside his local play group, he may want to be prepared for that situation, this isn't an argument, and artemo thank you your point is well made also, but irrelevant to my own... He may well not run into the problems I was just trying to make him aware of. I myself have played in the second round three years straight and have had similar RAW and RAI issues with other TO outside my local group... That's it, period, if he doesn't want to take any of this into account then he is welcome not to, I thought I was dong him a solid...

Artemo.... seriously RAW and RAI? This isn't a court of law, an experienced tournament contender knows that its all up to the TO if there is any complaint and I have seen similar such calls made to that which I was suggesting, so no I don't think I will reconsider my position, thanks...

So by following the rules laid out in the rulebook you think he may have an issue with other wargamers?

"Hold on I'm not sure your Dread can climb"
"It's in the rulebook, page 83"
(Checks rulebook)
"Oh yeah...well I still think you shouldn't be able to, having no arms and all...JUDGE"

...I can see how that will turn out.

Not trying to be obnoxious, but this is what your argument amounts to.

Hi Red,

JY2 and many other players use the psy-dread in a ruin and psy-dread firing all weapons behind a rhino all the time. This makes about as little sense as me firing my Las-Cannon from the roof of a Storm Raven and claiming that I have line of sight, which I obviously don't. I don't know what IDIOT designer placed a las-cannon in such a way that it would have no chance of angling itself to hit almost anything on the board!? So what do I do, I argue that StormRavens, being a hovercraft, tip slightly on one side so the weapon can be used. Is it legal? No idea. But if I went by the way the craft is modeled I might as well forget it has a turret mounted gun! Same thing with the Dreadnoughts, can they fire behind a rhino or from the N-th floor of a ruin? I don't know but it probably doesn't matter in the long run anyways!

Thank you guys for posting the game! Why the two of you are playing Imperial Guard lists is absolutely beyond my comprehension but I hope I don't get to find out this Saturday!!!

Grey,
Thank you for at least seeing my point and not arguing and getting so highly offended as the others. I, again, was stating that the game provides several hiccups that quoting pages from the rulebook will not remedy and Luckas83, way to use the same argument and waste more hot air, I know what the rules states, but like Grey stated there are situations with current models and dex's that make for curious situations. The trouble with the current rules is they do a sloppy job with defining terrain, mainly because it varies so much, therefore it needs to be discussed prior to deployment, therefore it makes room for an opponent to contest...

I'm just saying this isn't one of those situations where the rules are unclear. By moving up area terrain with dreads you are simply following the rules. There is no case where this will cause an issue.

Yes terrain needs to be discussed before the game, but that seems like a pretty sensible thing to do. There's no need to get worked up about it.

Let's take rules (non-)disputes off to YMDC, please. Nothing to be gained by continuing to drag the conversation off in that direction.

I need more people to vote for list #2; list #1 is scarier for my 'bugs.

Good point. I actually haven't voted yet or named a list which I think you should take.

I say list #1. You have experience with it which in the tournament scene counts for a lot. It's also proven to be extremely competitive.

List # 2 also looks scary but lack of experience plus expensive marines on foot is something I would avoid. Any successful wounds means an armour save...an armour save you could fail. Taking more AV means less armour saves over the course of the game.

Artemo wrote:I can see than manhandling bikes up steps/ladders would be so difficult as to be effectively impossible and cavalry for similar reasons (it would be damn near impossible to ride or even lead a horse up a steep flight of stairs in normal circumstances, never mind a battle). Beasts (of at least some sorts) rather less so (and actually some cavalry I could see climbing too, or stairs at least, if not ladders). But the whole thing's abstract enough that specific justifications ar easy to come up with but would make the rules even more unwieldy (my thunderwolves can run up stairs but not ladders... cue argument over whether the ruin has stairs or not...)

I forgot to add, I find your battle reports (and also those of others in your group, not least SabrX), hugely entertaining and more informative than the typical after action report. Please keep posting them so long as you have the will to do so.

That makes logical sense, though one may argue walkers may be too big to go up normal stairs and may definitely have problems climbing ladders as well. I mean we're talking about 2-ton behemoths here who would probably collapse the already fragile remnants of some old stairs in some decrepit ruins. Oh well, it's their rules. I just play by it.

And thanks. I'm glad people find my reports informative as well as entertaining. I'll keep on posting battle reports, but after the Ard Boyz, I may have to take a little break as I am starting to get really busy at work.

l0k1 wrote:Hey, I've just found this report and in pleasantly surprised to find that your first list is very similar to my own. I was wondering how well you like your interceptors. I found mine to be kind of lack luster but I've only used them once. Also I understand the use of dozers on your rhinos but I'm curious as to why you didn't try hunter killer missiles instead. I've been contemplating using them to aid my dreads with popping vehicles in the first few turns. 20 TL str 8 shots plus a few unlimited range str 8 missiles could shoot down quite a lot of mech while you move those rhinos into psycannon range.

Hey, I think I commented on your army list before. Yeah, the purifier-dread build is a very competitive GK build like SW long fang-spam or mechguards with veterans, vendettas and manticores. You're probably going to see a lot of similar lists among competitive GK players.

I love my interceptors. I haven't really used them that much, so I don't think I've found their "sweet spot" in terms of how to best use them yet....but I've got some theories I want to try out. But overall, I love their mobility and potential.

Hunter-killers are expensive for a 1-time use weapon. For their points, you can instead get a razorback with psybolt ammo which IMO would be a much wiser investment. Besides, S8 AT is something the knights are definitely not lacking.

Red Corsair wrote:Ha ha ok really.... So according to you it makes more sense to have a refrigerator with legs, choad legs at that, and no arms mind you, climb?????? Did I here you say climb, apparently where you come from arms aren't a requirement for scaling walls... Yes I would say it isn't in the spirit of the game where I play and according to my TO he would have had to stay level.... that was all my point was, he isn't gonna play me (unless he travels to Maine ha ha).... Just so we are square I DO NOT CARE HOW YOU RULE IT WHERE YOU ARE FROM, it is your own prerogative, I was simply suggesting to him that if he has the fortune to qualify for the second round this year and plays outside his local play group, he may want to be prepared for that situation, this isn't an argument, and artemo thank you your point is well made also, but irrelevant to my own... He may well not run into the problems I was just trying to make him aware of. I myself have played in the second round three years straight and have had similar RAW and RAI issues with other TO outside my local group... That's it, period, if he doesn't want to take any of this into account then he is welcome not to, I thought I was dong him a solid...

I know you mean well and was just trying to point out something you think we did wrong. At the same time, there are a lot of readers here and some of them are probably not too familiar with the rules. I just want them to know how it is played according to what the rulebook says. How anyone else justifies the rules, whether they think it is right or not, isn't really the main point of these batreps.

You've said your thoughts. I've voiced mine. Now let's move on to some more battle reports, shall we?

Grey Therion wrote:
Thank you guys for posting the game! Why the two of you are playing Imperial Guard lists is absolutely beyond my comprehension but I hope I don't get to find out this Saturday!!!

You kind of lost me there. I'm taking my grey knights and it's looking more and more like it's going to be my purifiers.

Janthkin wrote:Let's take rules (non-)disputes off to YMDC, please. Nothing to be gained by continuing to drag the conversation off in that direction.

I need more people to vote for list #2; list #1 is scarier for my 'bugs.

Oh Janthkin! I'm afraid of your bugs, considering that they are only 1 of 2 armies that almost tabled my purifiers!

Are you still bringing your genestealer nids knowing that you can't infiltrate them? Or do I have the feeling I'll be seeing 30 ymgarls popping out of terrains? At least you don't have to worry about librarians and Sanctuary from me.

Lukus83 wrote:Good point. I actually haven't voted yet or named a list which I think you should take.

I say list #1. You have experience with it which in the tournament scene counts for a lot. It's also proven to be extremely competitive.

List # 2 also looks scary but lack of experience plus expensive marines on foot is something I would avoid. Any successful wounds means an armour save...an armour save you could fail. Taking more AV means less armour saves over the course of the game.

Yeah, list #2 is something I want to try, but without any experience with it whatsoever, I think it may tank. I don't think I'll take top3 with that list, but I think I'll have a blast playing it. One of my main concerns with it though is that I have a tendency to fail LD9 tests all the time.

I think expectations are high for list #1. With that list, I'd be disappointed if I didn't advance to the Semi's. I'm definitely very comfortable with it, and I think it is more balanced than my interceptor list. If I really want to win, then this is definitely the list to take. Judging from the readers and the poll, it's looking more and more like I really want to win.

I'd really like to hear your theories on how to fully utilize the Interceptors. Right now I'm operating under the assumption that they should be more of a harassing unit that can move around to get shots on side/rear armor and when the game is about to end use the shunt ability to contest an objective.

A preview of tomorrow's Practice Ard Boyz matchup:


2500 Dark Angels Deathwing

Belial - TH/SS

5x Deathwing #1 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #2 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #3 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #4 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #5 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #6 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist + Cyclone Missile Launcher

5x Deathwing #7 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (these guys are Elite choices)
5x Deathwing #8 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher
5x Deathwing #9 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher

Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta


Wow! That's 45 assault terminators with 9 cyclone missile launchers! Do I have a chance? Thoughts?


BTW, we will be playing Scenario #2, the modified Seize Ground.

l0k1 wrote:I'd really like to hear your theories on how to fully utilize the Interceptors. Right now I'm operating under the assumption that they should be more of a harassing unit that can move around to get shots on side/rear armor and when the game is about to end use the shunt ability to contest an objective.

I play them as a harassment unit as well, normall with 2 psycannons, 1 hammer and psybolt armmo in a 10-man squad. They are fragile so you want to protect them. When you move them, alwasy make sure they have some type of cover, especially if the opponent has a lot of anti-MEQ shooting. If you have a librarian, trail a few interceptors so that they are in range to receive the protection of the librarian's Shrouding as well as the offensive aid of Might of Titan. And the best thing to do is to flank them so that they aren't facing the enemy head-on. They are fragile and cannot take too much firepower. All in all, how you use them will depend on how many interceptors are in your army and also the composition of your opponent's army.

I think your considerable lack of AP1 and AP2 fire will be something of a handicap. His Typhoons are not going to last long (and are worth getting rid of so they can’t damage your dreadnoughts) but 9 squads of terminators featuring a lot of 3++ saves is going to be tricky to kill in melee as well as in shooting. I wouldn’t be too worried about the cyclones (though they’ll do some damage) but I fear your purifiers won’t be able to eliminate enough terminators by shooting or melee (and I suspect they’ll deep strike en masse, aiming to take a turn’s fire and then assault in the following turn if you haven’t assaulted them. If you keep your distance, they’ll wreck your transports with their cyclones. I think you have to mass assault one or two of his squads with most of yours to win in melee... this one will be pretty tough.

Great reports, I think Deathwing will crush you in Mission 2 unless you can roll all 6's to wound with your psycannons. I'm running a very elite GK army for Ard Boyz so thanks for writing up your theory and reports, it's very helpful.

This list is my tried-and-true list. It is an extremely balanced all-comer's GK list that is also incredibly flexible. It's also got some very nasty anti-MSU firepower and it can hold it's own in assault against most armies. There isn't any army that this list can't handle. I have supreme confidence in it, and if I really want to win, this is the list I should take.

How does it do vs the uaual darl eldar 20 bananaboat spam that outrange everything you have except the dreads?
They get turn one and the dreads ought to be gone I mean.

Also in the batrep pictures is a piece of terrain that looks like a big imperial eagle lying down on the ground, where does it come from?

Pyriel- wrote:

This list is my tried-and-true list. It is an extremely balanced all-comer's GK list that is also incredibly flexible. It's also got some very nasty anti-MSU firepower and it can hold it's own in assault against most armies. There isn't any army that this list can't handle. I have supreme confidence in it, and if I really want to win, this is the list I should take.

How does it do vs the uaual darl eldar 20 bananaboat spam that outrange everything you have except the dreads?
They get turn one and the dreads ought to be gone I mean.

Assuming uninterrupted LoS: 20 shots, 40/3 hits, 20/3 damaging results, 10/3 make it past cover (dreads hiding behind Rhinos), and maybe 1 dread dies? The other two likely Fortitude away the results, and commence swatting Raiders out of the sky, along with their two untargeted friends. (4 twin-linked S8 BS 4 shots: 32/9 hits, 160/54 damaging results, each pen has a 66% chance of removing any ranged threat permanently (destroyed or weapon-destroyed).)

That requires 20 Dark Lance shots. Most of the DE lists I see are Venom-spam, with a few Ravagers to crack transports, and maybe some blasters. But if they're coming close enough to use Blasters, then Pyscannons are now in play.

This DA list could give you some serious grief. There are enough cyclone ML's to damage and perhaps even destroy all 6 dreads. Close assault is also a problem since he also has a ton of power weapons and some ablative 3++ saves.

Whittling them down seems the sensible option and with Purifiers charging maybe you can finish them off a unit at a time. The question is can you whittle down 45 terminators before he can stop 6 dreads and 6 rhinos?

Assuming uninterrupted LoS: 20 shots, 40/3 hits, 20/3 damaging results, 10/3 make it past cover (dreads hiding behind Rhinos), and maybe 1 dread dies? The other two likely Fortitude away the results, and commence swatting Raiders out of the sky, along with their two untargeted friends. (4 twin-linked S8 BS 4 shots: 32/9 hits, 160/54 damaging results, each pen has a 66% chance of removing any ranged threat permanently (destroyed or weapon-destroyed).)

That requires 20 Dark Lance shots. Most of the DE lists I see are Venom-spam, with a few Ravagers to crack transports, and maybe some blasters. But if they're coming close enough to use Blasters, then Pyscannons are now in play.

Sounds solid, good job on the list.

Might I suggest ditching the halbeards for points over to up the rhinos to razorbacks?
Halbeards only earn back points later in game and only on a unit that isnt really a dedicated melee one anyway whereas S6 heavy bolters get back points from turn one.

Just finished 2 intense games against SabrX's Deathwing with both my list #1 Purifiers and list #2 Interceptors, and I can honestly say that it is one of my toughest game so far for my purifiers. Definitely a nail-biter which went down to the wire. It came down to a battle between 2 halberd purifiers against 3 assault terminators (2 TH/SS and 1 LC) for control of the center objective. Oh man, I am still reeling from that battle. Batrep coming tomorrow (maybe for both games).

Pyriel- wrote:

This list is my tried-and-true list. It is an extremely balanced all-comer's GK list that is also incredibly flexible. It's also got some very nasty anti-MSU firepower and it can hold it's own in assault against most armies. There isn't any army that this list can't handle. I have supreme confidence in it, and if I really want to win, this is the list I should take.

How does it do vs the uaual darl eldar 20 bananaboat spam that outrange everything you have except the dreads?
They get turn one and the dreads ought to be gone I mean.

Also in the batrep pictures is a piece of terrain that looks like a big imperial eagle lying down on the ground, where does it come from?

Honestly, I don't know. I haven't played a DE army with that many vehicles yet. I did play against 1 list with maybe 9-10 vehicles, Vect and 2 deathstar units of incubi, but I had him swearing at Matt Ward by the end of the game.

But honestly, I think I can handle them no problem.

The eagle is from a GW terrain set with the Marine statue and Imperial eagle terrain. It's a new terrain piece that came out just last year, I believe.

Janthkin wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:

This list is my tried-and-true list. It is an extremely balanced all-comer's GK list that is also incredibly flexible. It's also got some very nasty anti-MSU firepower and it can hold it's own in assault against most armies. There isn't any army that this list can't handle. I have supreme confidence in it, and if I really want to win, this is the list I should take.

How does it do vs the uaual darl eldar 20 bananaboat spam that outrange everything you have except the dreads?
They get turn one and the dreads ought to be gone I mean.

Assuming uninterrupted LoS: 20 shots, 40/3 hits, 20/3 damaging results, 10/3 make it past cover (dreads hiding behind Rhinos), and maybe 1 dread dies? The other two likely Fortitude away the results, and commence swatting Raiders out of the sky, along with their two untargeted friends. (4 twin-linked S8 BS 4 shots: 32/9 hits, 160/54 damaging results, each pen has a 66% chance of removing any ranged threat permanently (destroyed or weapon-destroyed).)

That requires 20 Dark Lance shots. Most of the DE lists I see are Venom-spam, with a few Ravagers to crack transports, and maybe some blasters. But if they're coming close enough to use Blasters, then Pyscannons are now in play.

While I didn't do that math, that's how it usually comes down to against MSU armies. If I can survive Reece's Bjorn missile wolves or the mechanized BA army above, I have confidence that I can take on 20 dark lances. My dreads are frickin' sick.

Lukus83 wrote:This DA list could give you some serious grief. There are enough cyclone ML's to damage and perhaps even destroy all 6 dreads. Close assault is also a problem since he also has a ton of power weapons and some ablative 3++ saves.

Whittling them down seems the sensible option and with Purifiers charging maybe you can finish them off a unit at a time. The question is can you whittle down 45 terminators before he can stop 6 dreads and 6 rhinos?

I feel that to be one of my toughest challenges. 2 things purifiers have problems with. 1 is massed 2+ save models. Another is massed 3++ save models. Then I also have to contend with 24 krak shots each turn.

If I can beat this army, then honestly, I feel that I can take the Ard Boyz...and I'm not talking just the Preliminaries. I'm talking about the whole thing, including the Finals.

Pyriel- wrote:
Might I suggest ditching the halbeards for points over to up the rhinos to razorbacks?
Halbeards only earn back points later in game and only on a unit that isnt really a dedicated melee one anyway whereas S6 heavy bolters get back points from turn one.

Unfortunately, I only have 3 HB razorbacks so at most, I can change 3. However, I don't think I will because I think it'll be bad luck to change my list so late in the game. Go with your first instincts, and my instincts are to stick with what I've been using all this time. Maybe after the tournament, I will experiment with semi-razor-spam GK.

Practice game #2 against Deathwing. We played Scenario #2 as that is the only one I haven't tested yet.


Grey Knights 2500 List #1 - Purifier-Dread Spam (My list)



Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Halberds, 1x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo



2500 Dark Angels Deathwing


There's quite a few proxies here. Grey Knight terminators are Chain Fist terminators. Special weapons (CML, assault cannons and heavy flamer models) are all TH/SS termies with cyclone missile launchers. Miscellaneous terminators are lightning claw termies.

Belial - TH/SS

5x Deathwing #1 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)
5x Deathwing #2 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)
5x Deathwing #3 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)
5x Deathwing #4 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)
5x Deathwing #5 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)
5x Deathwing #6 - 2x LC's, 2x TH/SS, 1x Chain Fist, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)

5x Deathwing #7 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie, these guys are Elite choices)
5x Deathwing #8 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)
5x Deathwing #9 - 2x LC's, 3x TH/SS, 1x Cyclone Missile Launcher (on TH/SS termie)

Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta
Land Speeder Typhoon - Multi-melta


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Scenario #2 - Whoz Got Da Motz!

Mission: Seize Ground - 5 Objectives

1 objective in the center of the map and 1 objective in the center of each of the 4 table quarters.

Center objective = 4 points

Objectives in deployment quarters = 1 point

Objectives in empty quarters = 2 points

Massacre = 5+ points, Major victory = 3-4 points, Minor victory = 1-2 points.

Deployment: Spearhead

Initiative: Grey Knights

Special Rules: No infiltrating, scouting or outflanking! Night-fighting on Turn 6.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:

Map of the terrain:


My deployment:


There are no reserves for me.


Deathwing deployment. Fearful of my dreads, SabrX leaves his land speeders in reserves. He also leaves 1 troop deathwing squad with Belial in reserves.


Overview of deployment. Deathwing fails to seize and awaayyy we go....


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 1

I decide to play ultra-aggressive. I admit that the psybolt razorbacks would have been good here. Anyways I advance 12" with all my rhinos and disembark all my knights. I then form a protective circle to give my grey knights cover from his krak missiles.

I make a huge mistake here. I was so concerned about his kraks and giving my guys cover that I forgot about his frags! All my guys are now bunched up nice and tight. Oh, ship......


I concentrate almost all my fire into 2 squads. I kill 2 from one of the Elite squads and 4 from one of his troop squads. Being fearless, he scoffs at 25% casualty morale checks (damn you fearless....oh wait, my guys are fearless also )


Deathwing 1

Belial's unit teleports inside my deployment zone. Uh oh, rear armor shots!


Terminators advance.


He frags the hell out of my guys with his missile launchers. I lose maybe 1/3 of all my purifiers. Ouch! Then Belial's squad fires and blows up Crowe's ride. I think he has a gripe with my HQ after my last game against his Tau.


Turn 2 coming up tomorrow....

This is going to be great! I think possibly the most interesting/horrific match-up and start to a battle that your Purifiers have yet faced.

Grey Knights 2

Purifiers move to shoot at Belial's unit. They fail to do any damage.


Unit of 2 purifiers (with warding shield-stave) advance. Most of my psycannons stay still while dreads advance. Rhinos tank shock 12". One of his TH/SS deaths or glory my rhino and gets run over for his troubles. The other termies, after seeing their friend run down, decides to let my rhino pass.


More GK tank-shocking. His termies just move out of the way. All my rhinos pop smoke. Crowe gets in another rhino and heads back towards Belial's unit.


My shooting kills about 9 terminators, including wiping out 1 full troop squad. Blue dice in each squad shows how many dies from my shooting


To the death! My 2-man purifier unit charges a squad of assault termies.


I fail to kill any of his guys and he kills one of my purifiers. My warding stave makes something like 6-7 invuln saves! They remain locked.


Deathwing 2

Belial's unit heads for my objective.



Deathwing movement. 2 land speeders come in from reserves.


Shooting by land speeders - that's 4 krak shots and 2 multi-meltas - at my purifiers out in the open only manages to kill 2.


Now this is what deathwing live for....assault!


He also multi-charges my 3 rhinos. Luckily for me, he fails to do any damage because I moved at cruising speed.


I am disgusted as my 3 purifiers fail to kill his lightning claw terminator (he made 2 5++ invuln's). Then again, his LC whiffs against my purifiers as well, failing to kill even 1. On the other hand, his other terminators get 4 pens on my vendread and blow him up (I had him re-roll a 5 and the second roll was a 6!).


Grey Knights 3

Overview of the beginning of Turn 3.


GK movement.


I do a few more tank-shocking. However, he does D&G and immobilise my left rhino. Dread climbs up the hill.


Crowe makes it to Belial's unit.


Shooting kills 1 terminator here....


....and 3 terminators there.


I then assault his 2 terminators....


....and wipe them out. However, his lone lightning claw makes another 2 5++ invuln's and wipe out my squad of 3-purifiers. I consolidate to try to screen out my unit of 2 psycannons from his lone terminator.


Finally, my lone purifier fails to kill any termies but miraculously make another 6 invuln's (that's 12 so far)!



Deathwing Turn 3 to be continued.... (damn internet is too slow...it's taking forever to upload my photos)

All I can see Instead of pics is a Photobucket sign saying "This image has been moved or deleted."

Anyway, I think this Is a tough match up for your grey knights.

woodbok wrote:All I can see Instead of pics is a Photobucket sign saying "This image has been moved or deleted."

Anyway, I think this Is a tough match up for your grey knights.

Ok...fixed.

Can you append a 'running total of troops lost' to the end of each turn (eg Purifiers: 12, Death Wing: 16)? While it's easy to keep track of the vehicles, walkers and characters, I'm searching to see who's winning the troop battle.

Your shooting went better than I expected after turn 1's rather miserable performance.

Great stuff!

Artemo wrote:Can you append a 'running total of troops lost' to the end of each turn (eg Purifiers: 12, Death Wing: 16)? While it's easy to keep track of the vehicles, walkers and characters, I'm searching to see who's winning the troop battle.

Your shooting went better than I expected after turn 1's rather miserable performance.

Great stuff!

Ok...I'll try. At this point, I've killed about 22 terminators and he's killed something like 15 or so purifiers. However, his terminators outnumber my purifiers 45 to 30 from the start so he's still got a lot more terminators than I have purifiers.

In turn 2 when I didn't move some of my purifiers for the 8-psycannon shots, I did a lot of damage.

Thanks. I don't think it would matter in a normal battle but in this one with him having so many troops, it gives me a better idea of the relative positions attrition-wise.

Hold your ground and keep pumping out those psycannon shots. I have my fingers and toes crossed that the GK win and keep on blasting. Also in retrospect since I know you have finished this battle and just haven't posted the results would fitting in Psybolt ammo for all your guys helped at all to improve your gunline since it seems facing a termie horde especially deathwing you would want to just dig in and have a shooting grudge match.

Deathwing 3

Lone LC termie goes after my 2-psycannon purifier unit.


Other termies go after my purifiers.


Shooting kills off 2 purifiers.


He fires both land speeders at my rhino - that's 4 kraks and 2 multi-meltas - yet somehow, I escape with only a stun.


Charge!


His lone termie wipes out my 2-man purifier unit and consolidate closer to the objective.


Belial actually split up from his unit in the movement phase. They then both assault Crowe's ride but do nothing.


My lone warding stave is still kicking and screaming after 3 assault phases against 4 terminators (I think I passed about 4 invuln's this turn).


2 termies assault and kill 1 purifier here.


Finally, his terminators wreck my rhino who went to contest his objective.


Grey Knights 4
This will be the last game turn. We were timing this game as if it was an actual Ard Boyz game and there will be no Turn 5 after this. So I need to go for it. It's all or nothing now.


GK movement. Purifiers go after both his lone LC (troop) and his contesting termies (elite). Dreads try to help out.


I shunt my interceptors to contest his objective. 1 dies to dangerous terrain. I'm hoping here that he fails his Difficult Terrain test to assault up the ruins next turn, giving me the contest.


Crowe comes out to play. Dreadnought and purifiers move down the ruins.


I blow away both land speeders with my dreads to stop them from contesting (actually, one was destroyed earlier).


My vindicare finally does something useful and kill his lone LC terminator (I've been unable to get through his invuln's/cover all game).


For the very first time ever for my grey knights.....my rhino self-repairs itself. Too bad there's not going to be another turn.


I get a huge break here. My shooting drops his Chain Fist. Now my dread may actually survive combat with them!


Finally, I stun his last speeder with a dread and kill 1 termie with my interceptors.


Here my dread charges his terminators and Crowe charges Belial.


Belial pounds Crowe to a bloody pulp, but before he dies, Crowe takes Belial with him via Heroic Sacrifice. Terminators only manage to stun my dread.


2 terminators finish off my lone warding stave.


My other lone purifier (you know, the one still in combat AGAINST 4 TERMINATORS!!!) casts Cleansing Flame (finally goes off after 3 unsuccessful attempts and 1 perils) and kills 2 terminators with it!!! He then becomes a stud and kills off the other 2 terminators while making another 2 invuln's (That's about 18 straight invuln's he's made already)!!! Someone give this guy a promotion!

He and the 2 terminators both consolidate towards the objective in the ruins.


The moment of truth. I need to finish off his terminators in order to claim the center objective. I charge with both my purifiers and my dread.


Unfortunately, I am only able to kill 2 termies. In return, I lose all but 2 purifiers, including my warding stave. Gulp! Oh well, on the bright side, he's got no troops near the center objective, only 2 Elite squads of terminators.

So far, I've killled about 31 out of 45 terminators and he's killed about 25 out of 35 grey knights. I don't have much gas left in the tank.


Deathwing 4
This is it...the last and final turn. We will not have enough time for a Turn 5.


He's going in for the kill. Terminators go after both my interceptors contesting his objective and my 2-man purifier squad trying to claim the middle objective.


Termies krak 1 interceptor to death, despite me going-to-ground. They then assault and finish him off.


His 2 terminators then assault my lone warding purifier. I survive, making another 3-4 invuln's!!! We stay locked. Holy ship! That's about 22 or so invuln's he's made.


Finally, the moment of truth....part deux. He charges in another 2 terminators to finish off my purifiers. That's 1 TH/SS and 2 LC's. I cast Cleansing Flame and it actually kills 1 LC terminator! He then fails his invuln's for both his TH/SS and his other LC terminator from my halberds!!!


Holy ship! I actually killed off 3 terminators with only 2 knights to claim the center objective!!!


--------------------------------------------------------------



Here, neither of our us have the 2-point objective (both are contesting).


He's got his own objective.


And I've got mine. My assaulting dread pulled his terminators off of my objective.


Finally, I've got the center 4-point objective.

I've killed a total of 36 out of 45 deathwing terminators and he 28 out of 35 grey knights (including 5 interceptors). I've also killed Belial and 2 speeders. He killed Crowe, 1-2 rhinos and only 1 venerable dread.



Majory Victory to the Grey Knights!!!

Nail biter for sure. Glad to see Crowe did what he does best and took out Belial with him.

Very close at the end despite the major victory result.

A real 'common' soldier's victory in a nail-biting battle of attrition (I put the inverted commas because both armies have no common soldiers to speak of, but you know what I mean).

Two elitest versions of elitest elites of elites of mankind.

Although Castellan is dead, I think he has got a worthy successor... Guess whether they'll allow him to keep his Warding Stave?
And those two knights at the end...
Epic, nothing else I may add.

Purifiers go through insanely tough tests and emerge victorious again. And after those three common soldiers with success killing and surviving... You still doubt who should you take?

Excellent batrep and usage of Crowe-I think people don't realize how great he is at sacrificing himself to take out an HQ choice almost twice his point value.

Stormcrow wrote:Excellent batrep and usage of Crowe-I think people don't realize how great he is at sacrificing himself to take out an HQ choice almost twice his point value.

Belial is 20pts cheaper than Crowe, though

What a great game. The close nail-biter games are the best. Good job pulling it out.

I would love to play this list with my DE, it would be an epic uphill battle for my paper thin boats.

If the performance of the purifiers and dreads in this game did not convince you and you are still looking for votes, I vote for purifier list.

unityvybe wrote:Nail biter for sure. Glad to see Crowe did what he does best and took out Belial with him.

Too bad I didn't get the +1 bonus point for having my HQ survive at the end....but I really needed to prevent Belial from contesting my objective so it was a worthy sacrifice.

Artemo wrote:Very close at the end despite the major victory result.

A real 'common' soldier's victory in a nail-biting battle of attrition (I put the inverted commas because both armies have no common soldiers to speak of, but you know what I mean).

Omigosh. It was much, much closer than what the score suggested. It could have very easily been a Deathwing victory (and probably should have been) had I not got so lucky in the end and had my opponent not make 2 mistakes.

Even though my purifiers have been dominated before (by tyranids and by tau), I've always felt that they had a good fighting chance. This was actually the first time I felt like a true underdog in any matchup with my purifiers. I really don't know how I pulled it off, considering I lost almost 1/3 of all my purifiers after Turn 1 from Deathwing shooting. Like I said, I'm still reeling from this battle.

the weird one wrote:Two elitest versions of elitest elites of elites of mankind.

Although Castellan is dead, I think he has got a worthy successor... Guess whether they'll allow him to keep his Warding Stave?
And those two knights at the end...
Epic, nothing else I may add.

Purifiers go through insanely tough tests and emerge victorious again. And after those three common soldiers with success killing and surviving... You still doubt who should you take?

He makes a good case for taking the Warding Stave. I forgot about the 2 made saves for a re-rollable Perils so he made about 24 straight invuln saves! He is definitely in line to become a Brotherhood Champion.

One of the secrets to having your purifiers last longer is to actually assault them into battle as long as there is a warding stave in that unit. That's why I usually like to have half of my purifier units with 1 hammer and half with warding staves.

Yeah, at this point it's going to be my purifiers because 1) the readers demand it and 2) I haven't and won't be able to finish my Interceptor army in time for Ard Boyz.

Stormcrow wrote:Excellent batrep and usage of Crowe-I think people don't realize how great he is at sacrificing himself to take out an HQ choice almost twice his point value.

What Backfire said. Belial is a very good bargain for a HQ at only $1.30, and he lets you take terminator troops! But I feel a little because Crowe bullied some cheapo HQ.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

acsmedic wrote:What a great game. The close nail-biter games are the best. Good job pulling it out.

I would love to play this list with my DE, it would be an epic uphill battle for my paper thin boats.

If the performance of the purifiers and dreads in this game did not convince you and you are still looking for votes, I vote for purifier list.

Lol. Oh, I didn't really need much convincing. I already know how good my purifiers know. It's just that a little part of me wants to play the underdog army and see them do well. Guess that goes back to my old daemonhunter days when every battle was a struggle.

But I've already decided that it's going to be my purifiers.

Your army looks pretty tough. Those 2 units of beastpacks are nasty. I think beastpacks are the future of competitive DE. Right now DE really struggles against the current competitive meta which is MSU (at least against certain builds). Beastpacks - along with fiends of slaanesh, thunderwolf cavalry and tyranid raveners - are the future anti-meta of competitive 40k gaming. That's why DashofPepper has one in his all-comer's DE venom-spam list. And I say...the more, the merrier.

Ouch! Then Belial's squad fires and blows up Crowe's ride. I think he has a gripe with my HQ after my last game against his Tau.

Yup.

To me, Crowe is like Bin Laden. He caused untold damage against my Tau and got away in the BA Razor-spam vs. GK Purifiers practice match. Despite the major defeat, this game was a moral victory to me.

jy2 wrote:but I had him swearing at Matt Ward by the end of the game.

Ha ha, I know how that feels. I curse him even more for not making a better WD Sisters of Battle codex.


That was a fun match. The lone purfier is like a one man army. He made so many 2++ saves!

In hindsight, I made two mistakes:

#1. Towards the end I should have had my second Terminator squad sit and contest middle objective.
#2. I shouldn't have assaulted Crowe's Rhino with my Terminators and just sit on jy2's home objective.

If I was more rational and done these two things, this game would have ended in a minor victory for the Deathwing. However, I got lost in the heat of battle with blood lust for Crowe. I also didn't expect 2 mere Purifers will kill 4 Terminators and a single Purifier will shrug off 24 invulnerable saves!!!

So far, we've seen what jy2's purifier list can do against Mech Spam and Terminator heavy army. I've no doubt jy2's list can hold it's own against mech spam armies. However, he might have a hard time against Terminator heavy armies. IMO, the min-Interceptors are great when you are going second and knowing the last turn is coming up. For some reason, the Vindicare hasn't made a major impact in all the previous games we've played. But he's a good asset to have for scenario 1, which is Annihilation and Traitor IC worth 5 kill points.

Good luck jy2 in the upcoming Ard Boyz tournament! I'm rooting for you.

edit: grammer

What Backfire said. Belial is a very good bargain for a HQ at only $1.30, and he lets you take terminator troops! But I feel a little because Crowe bullied some cheapo HQ.

haha oops; not quite as impressive in that case

I was referring more to scary units like mephiston and other scary IEs in general however. Still, that's a great bargain for belial.

My other lone purifier (you know, the one still in combat AGAINST 4 TERMINATORS!!!) casts Cleansing Flame (finally goes off after 3 unsuccessful attempts and 1 perils) and kills 2 terminators with it!!! He then becomes a stud and kills off the other 2 terminators while making another 2 invuln's (That's about 18 straight invuln's he's made already)!!! Someone give this guy a promotion!

You know you need to paint some honour marks on that Grey Knight!

@SabrX:

Lol. I like the Bin Laden comparison. But whereas there really isn't a worthy successor to OBL, I've got a perfect candidate here to replace Crowe.

You should've had this game if only it wasn't for my stupefying luck at the end. That was my toughest battle to date. As Artemo said, it was really a war of attrition and I have no idea how my 35 MEQ's was able to stand up to 45 terminators. Too bad you couldn't make it to the Ard Boyz. If you brought this list, it would wreck house against most builds, mine included.

Maybe we'll see you awesome Tau at next year's Ard Boyz.

Stormcrow wrote:

What Backfire said. Belial is a very good bargain for a HQ at only $1.30, and he lets you take terminator troops! But I feel a little because Crowe bullied some cheapo HQ.

haha oops; not quite as impressive in that case

I was referring more to scary units like mephiston and other scary IEs in general however. Still, that's a great bargain for belial.

Well, don't mean to toot my own horn, but my Crowe has claimed the lives of the Swarmlord, the Nightbringer, Daemon princes and others. Almost added Ghazghkull to the trophy room also, but the bell saved him.

Pyriel- wrote:

My other lone purifier (you know, the one still in combat AGAINST 4 TERMINATORS!!!) casts Cleansing Flame (finally goes off after 3 unsuccessful attempts and 1 perils) and kills 2 terminators with it!!! He then becomes a stud and kills off the other 2 terminators while making another 2 invuln's (That's about 18 straight invuln's he's made already)!!! Someone give this guy a promotion!

You know you need to paint some honour marks on that Grey Knight!

Yeah, I think I shall give him a name and paint it on his base after the tournament. He will be my shining example of why warding staves are good. Expensive but good.



To all who will be going to Ard Boyz.....GOOD LUCK!!!!!! And most importantly....HAVE FUN!!!!!

Great bat rep as ever JY! I couldn't predict the result and I love how it went down to the wire; great game.
Never let anyone criticise warding staves again, eh? I hope they serve you well in the actual tournament too.

Good luck man!

Just Dave wrote:Great bat rep as ever JY! I couldn't predict the result and I love how it went down to the wire; great game.
Never let anyone criticise warding staves again, eh? I hope they serve you well in the actual tournament too.

Good luck man!

Yeah, I couldn't predict this game either. Unlike my other games in which I had confidence I could win, I wasn't so sure here.

But actually, it is because of this game that I'm going to alter my purifier list slightly. This will be the new list that I will be taking.



Grey Knights 2500 List #1 - Purifier-Dread Spam

Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer, 1x Warding Stave

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo



The main change is with my interceptors. I got rid of the halberds and gave them a warding stave. I feel that they need more staying power than hitting power, especially if I need them to contest an objective. If only I had a warding stave in the unit when I went to contest my opponent's home objective, he might still be alive. That would have given me the massacre.

Woohoo!!! Just had 3 great games at Ard Boyz today against 3 tough armies. 2 of those were rematches with old opponents.

First of all, my list:


2500 Grey Knights - Purifier-Dreads

Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer, 1x Warding Stave

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


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Now for my opponents. In game #1, I played against Scott's Thunderwolf Space Wolves:

2500 Space Wolves - Thunderwolves


The photo is missing one of his units of TWC and Lord, but he had them for the game.


Wolf Lord - TH+SS, Runic Armor, Wolftail Talisman, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Bear
Wolf Lord - Wolf Claw+SS, Runic Armor, Wolftail Talisman, Wolftooth Necklace, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Warrior Born

4x Wolf Guards - All w/Combi-meltas and Power Fists
8x Wolf Scouts - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, 1x Power Weapon (Wolf Guard here)

8x Grey Hunters - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino (Wolf Guard here)
8x Grey Hunters - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino (Wolf Guard here)
8x Grey Hunters - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino (Wolf Guard here)

5x Thunderwolf Cavalry - Thunderhammer, Meltabombs, Meltabombs + Storm Shield, Storm Shield, 1x Plain
5x Thunderwolf Cavalry - Thunderhammer, Meltabombs, Meltabombs + Storm Shield, Storm Shield, 1x Plain

6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers, Razorback w/TL-Lascannons
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers, Razorback w/TL-Lascannons


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Game #2 was a rematch againt Gus' Tau (Gus Indo). Last time we played (battle report here), his Tau dominated my purifier grey knights. Can he do it again?

2500 Tau



Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Blacksun Filter, HW-Multi-tracker, Stimulant Injector, 2x Shield Drones
2x Bodyguards - Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array, 1x w/Blacksun Filter

3x Crisis Suits - TL-Missile Pods, Blacksun Filter, 2x Gun Drones
3x Crisis Suits - TL-Missile Pods, Blacksun Filter, 2x Gun Drones
3x Crisis Suits - TL-Missile Pods, Blacksun Filter, 2x Gun Drones

12x Firewarriors w/Sergeant
12x Firewarriors w/Sergeant
12x Kroots w/5x Hounds
12x Kroots w/5x Hounds
11x Kroots w/4x Hounds

8x Pathfinders - Devilfish w/Disruption Pods
8x Pathfinders - Devilfish w/Disruption Pods

3x Broadsides - Advanced Stabilisation Systems, Leader w/Blacksun Filter, Target Lock, 2x Shield Drones
3x Broadsides - Advanced Stabilisation Systems, Leader w/Blacksun Filter, Target Lock, 2x Shield Drones
Hammerhead - Railgun, Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pods, Multi-tracker, Target Lock


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Finally, game #3 was a rematch against Bobby's Stormraven Grey Knights (Grey Therion). Last time I played against him was with my tyranids (battle report here). He was behind for the most part but came back to steal a victory from the clutches of defeat. His list has since evolved into a very different Stormraven GK build.


2500 Grey Knights - Stormraven

Draigo
Inquisitor - Daemonhammer, Terminator Armor, Psycannon, Psychic Communion, 3x Servo-skulls

10x Purifiers - 5x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, 4x Psycannons
10x Purifiers - 5x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, 4x Psycannons

5x Paladins - Brotherhood Banner, 1x Daemonhammer, 3x Halberds, 2x Psycannons
1x Paladin - MC-Hammer
1x Paladin - MC-Hammer

Stormraven
Stormraven - Teleport Homer
Stormraven - Teleport Homer, Searchlights

Dreadknight
Dreadknight
6x Purgations - Daemonhammer, MC-Hammer, 4x Incinertors, Teleport Homer


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Battle report #1 will be up tomorrow.

I'm going to rashly stick my neck out and make some predictions:

I think the Werewolf-wannabes will have been tough but takeable and your assassin might have proved valuable against them. I predict a close win for the GK. I've never faced Thunderwolf Cavalry though (presumably named for the tremulous rumbling of their bowels as they charge like the Light Brigade at Balaclava into a hail of (psy) cannon fire). But on the off-chance that the cowardly beasts and their gunshy over-equipped riders managed to flee in panic through your lines, they might have done some considerable damage.

The Tau, I think, might have done for you again. A lot, I think, will have hinged on the specific mission and deployment rolls. I'll be optimistic and say GK win, but this is the one I'm, most dubious about. I think either you crush him or he crushes you. No close calls here.

Third is easy to predict. The Grey Knights will have won... But I don't actually think he'd have had much chance unless he played really, really well. While his infantry should beat your squads one one one (through numbers or paladin-ness or Draigo's anti-psyker S10 hits), a lot will depend on who gets the charge. If the Vindicare managed to get a shieldbreaker against Draigo, or Crowe did his sacrificing thing (I have lost Draigo to that, which was incredibly annoying as it wasn't even Draigo who'd landed the killing blow, he was just lounging around in base contact...), that wpould have made a big dent in his killing power. And Dreadknights don't like force weapon activation much... and if you kept a couple of your Dreadnoughts up with the troops, his psychic powers wouldn't be too effective. Mindstrikes would be nasty, but assuming he's moving 12" and unloading, it limits the number he'd get off (and if at that point you're still in your vehicles, they're less effective anyway). You had the firepower to blow his 'ravens out of the sky on turn one though if he deployed them. That's what makes me think it's a win for the Purifiers and their trusty warding staves.

Against Space Wolves, we played the Scenario #1 - Kill Points with the traitor. Against Tau, it was Scenario #2 - Modified Seize Ground. Lastly against Stormraven Grey Knights, it was Scenario #3 - Victory Points.

Every single game was a bloodbath. Both Gus and Bobby killed almost all my infantry.

And as expected, Crowe died every single game. At least he added 2 more heads to his trophy collection - the Saga of the Warrior Born TWC Wolf Lord and Draigo.

Guess the traitor will do Vindicare's reputation well.

Awaiting you're awesome reports.

I too look forward to the reports. I'm thinking the Space Wolves may actually have the edge on your knights. I'm thinking you'll get two wins and a loss, the latter against the TWC IMHO. Can't wait man.

I hope you don't get as lucky during the 'ard boyz games or it just won't be interesting.

Your reports are fine and all, but you're SO. DAMN. LUCKY. it makes me sick and the reports not very fun to read.

"Yeah I had a single purifier. He shrugged off over 18 power weapon wounds then killed four terminators. Yup that's how we roll"

Then later another purifier wipes out some terminators? Or a pair takes out 4 or something. And the first practice game vs BA "Yeah his shooting sucked, I passed most of my cover saves, he failed all of his and I killed four predators in one turn. Game over".

It's just kind of ridiculous. I feel like grey knights are utterly broken and the report #2 just pretty much proves it. By the third turn the kill count was what, 31 terminators to 25 of your power armor marines? You do know his are supposed to be MORE durable than yours, right? And the amount you killed in close combat because EVERY model has a force weapon....how is the codex not broken again?

I hope you played well at 'ard boyz and play well at the semifinals. I'd say "good luck", but you seem to have that down pat....

I don't think it's really fair to write off all jv2's successes to luck, though I agree, he has at times been lucky. but it's not actually too unlikely to make lots of 2+ saves. Sure you expect to fail 1 in 6 but in real life probability is well... more random...

As for the GK being broken... well they can certainly produce very effective builds, but no more so than Space Fairies, Imperial Weaklings, Vampire and Werewolf Wannabe Marines, etc.

I honstly think it's just that most people ahven't worked out how to crack the better GK lists, and I think that's mainly because they're falling back on 'prevailing doctrine' rather than considering the actual specific weaknesses of each good GK list and working out how their army should counter them. for instance, i would contend that an all-paladin list, condemned for having 'too few models' and 'too few troops' in fact has neither. It just appears to if you're considering it as a list under the prevailing doctrine. So then when people play a list they thing they should table easily and lose they cry 'broken codex' rather than reconsidering their tactics.

I'd be delighted to carry on this topic in a new thread, if you'd like to start one, but I don't want to derail jv2's battle excellent battle reports so won't reply further on this side-topic here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think it's really fair to write off all jv2's successes to luck, though I agree, he has at times been lucky. but it's not actually too unlikely to make lots of 2+ saves. Sure you expect to fail 1 in 6 but in real life probability is well... more random...

As for the GK being broken... well they can certainly produce very effective builds, but no more so than Space Fairies, Imperial Weaklings, Vampire and Werewolf Wannabe Marines, etc.

I honstly think it's just that most people ahven't worked out how to crack the better GK lists, and I think that's mainly because they're falling back on 'prevailing doctrine' rather than considering the actual specific weaknesses of each good GK list and working out how their army should counter them. for instance, i would contend that an all-paladin list, condemned for having 'too few models' and 'too few troops' in fact has neither. It just appears to if you're considering it as a list under the prevailing doctrine. So then when people play a list they thing they should table easily and lose they cry 'broken codex' rather than reconsidering their tactics.

I'd be delighted to carry on this topic in a new thread, if you'd like to start one, but I don't want to derail jv2's battle excellent battle reports so won't reply further on this side-topic here.

I could not disagree with Spellbound any more. JY's Battle Reports are incredibly entertaining, I love how close a lot of the games are the fact that neither side is a blowout proves that they are more balanced then overpowered.

Keep up the good work JY!! I look forward to your Ard Boyz reports!!!

Primal Out!

@spellbound
Haha, are you seriously mad at someone for being lucky? You must realize how preposterous that sounds? He can't help it anymore than if someone else is unlucky. It sounds like you're really mad at grey knights. Mat Ward is not a competent rules writer. His books, all but space marines, are really bad. Daemons screwed up fantasy, grey knights are throwing the balance of 40k off.

Jim is a very good player and a pleasure to game against. Is he lucky? Sure. Some of our games he's gotten crazy good luck against me. Is that something to get mad about? Hardly.

Direct your anger where it belongs, otherwise it makes you look bad.

he took the picture before I organized my army! lol. Its a very very mismatched Tau. The lovely blue battlesuits are from SabrX.

Ard Boyz Game #1 vs Thunderwolves Space Wolves

I felt that this would be a tough game for me. Right now, I think the key to beating the new Grey Knights is with a really fast army, shooting and a lot of 3++ saves. This list has it. Though my opponent didn't max out on the storm shields in his TWC units, he does have 3 per. He's got 2 really fast hammer units that can take a lot of beating. He's got some shooting to wreck my rhinos so that his TWC has infantry to assault. Lastly, he's got very flexible troops that can hold their own in assault. IMO space wolves are still one of the top dogs along with the Grey Knights and Imperial Guards. This is not going to be an easy battle. What's even harder may be to get a massacre off this army. It is a solid build.


2500 Grey Knights - Purifier-Dreads (My list)

Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer, 1x Warding Stave

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2500 Space Wolves - Thunderwolves


The photo is missing one of his units of TWC and Lord, but he had them for the game.


Wolf Lord - TH+SS, Runic Armor, Wolftail Talisman, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Bear
Wolf Lord - Wolf Claw+SS, Runic Armor, Wolftail Talisman, Wolftooth Necklace, Thunderwolf Mount, Saga of the Warrior Born

4x Wolf Guards - All w/Combi-meltas and Power Fists
8x Wolf Scouts - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, 1x Power Weapon (Wolf Guard here)

8x Grey Hunters - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino (Wolf Guard here)
8x Grey Hunters - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino (Wolf Guard here)
8x Grey Hunters - Mark of the Wulfen, Meltagun, Wolf Standard, Rhino (Wolf Guard here)

5x Thunderwolf Cavalry - Thunderhammer, Meltabombs, Meltabombs + Storm Shield, Storm Shield, 1x Plain
5x Thunderwolf Cavalry - Thunderhammer, Meltabombs, Meltabombs + Storm Shield, Storm Shield, 1x Plain

6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers, Razorback w/TL-Lascannons
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missile Launchers, Razorback w/TL-Lascannons


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Scenario #1 - Git Dat Dirty Git!

Mission: Modified Kill Points

Each player gives their opponent one of their troop models. This model is now an Indepedent Character under the control of the opponent and is worth +5 KP's!

Massacre = 10+ KP's, Major victory = 7-9 KP's, Minor victory = 1-6 KP's.

Deployment: Pitched Battle

Initiative: Space Wolves

Special Rules: No Scout moves (but there is Outflanking) and Night Fight on turn 1.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:


SW deployment:

Scouts are in reserves.

My deployment:

I stick 1 squad of purifiers with the traitor in reserves. Crowe will snag their empty rhino.


Vindicare infiltrates on the right flank (from my perspective).

BTW, I completely forget about my interceptors until Turn 4! Talk about mind blanks....

I steal the Initiative!!!


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 1
We both forget about Night-Fight on Turn 1!


I advance 6".


I concentrate my entire army on the left TWC unit (with Saga of the Bear Wolf Lord) and completely wipe them out!

Vindicare misses, rolling 1,1 to hit.


Space Wolves 1


SW movement. Rhinos pop smoke. TWC run.


His long fangs and lazorbacks wreck a normal dread, weapon destroy/shake 1 rhino and stun another rhino.


Grey Knights 2

GK movement. I fortitude off both the shaken and stunned rhinos. 1 unit of warding stave purifiers disembarks and heads towards his isolated left grey hunter rhino.


This time my shooting is more mild as I put several wounds on his 2nd TWC unit (including 1W on his Wolf Lord) as well as stun and immobilise his rhino (with traitor in it).


I believe it takes 2 dreads to explode his left rhino. No one is killed in the explosion.

His Power Fist TWC makes his cover against my vindicare's turbo-penetrator round this turn.


I then assault. I fail to cast Cleansing Flame and we each kill 3 models a piece.


Space Wolves 2

Scouts come in. They would miss my dread with both their melta and combi-melta.


SW movement. 2 units of grey hunters disembark from their rhinos and move up.


Grey Hunters rapid-fire and shoot down my vindicare.


Long fangs and meltas from his grey hunters then take out 2 rhinos. I believe I lose 2 purifiers in the explosion.


Scouts then assault my dread. As expected, they don't do much even with the Powerfist and the Mark of the Wulfen.


Again, my purifiers fail to cast Cleansing Flame and they get wiped out, but not before taking another 2 hunters with them.

His TWC, having to move through difficult terrain, fails to get the charge off.


Grey Knights 3

GK movement. My purifiers come in. IC splits off and gets into the empty rhino. 1 rhino heads towards his grey hunters with traitor, popping smoke along the way. Crowe goes after his TWC unit.


My shooting is piss-poor this turn. I put another 1W on his TWC Lord and kill a couple of grey hunters only.


However, his hunters fail morale and then fall back, preventing my unit of purifiers and my vendread from assaulting. Doh! They will auto-regroup next turn.


I charge 2 squads of purifiers into his scouts....


....and easily wipe them out. I then consolidate into the crater.


Can Crowe do it?


Yes! He gets massacred, but he takes along the 250pt+ Wolf Lord with him.


Space Wolves 3

Traitor splits off from the grey hunters and get into the razorback. Hunters then go after my purifier rhino.


Broken hunters auto-rally and move up. TWC prepares for a massive multi-assault.


2 units of hunters shoot and wipe out 4 purifiers.

Long fangs and razors don't do anything to my dreads (anything permanent, that is).


Grey hunters miss with their melta and combi-melta so they assault instead. They fail to do anything to my rhino.


Will my knights survive his TWC?


Luckily one of the dreads he is assaulting is my vendread and my rhino had moved at cruising speed last turn. He does nothing to them. I cast Hammerhand and this time, it goes off. The result? I only lose 1 purifier but win combat. He fails morale, I catch him and do a couple more wounds to him (and more importantly, removing 1 of his storm shields).

Grey Knights 4

Overview of the beginning of Turn 4.

It isn't until this round that I remember about my interceptors, but by the time I did, I had already moved my models and couldn't roll for him to come in.


GK movement. Right purifiers disembark and get ready to assault his grey hunters.

My shooting does little, though I did wreck his lazorback with the traitor inside.


Purifiers assault. Again I fail to cast Cleansing Flame.


Because his Powerfist wolf guard was still in base with my transport and I forgot to move this turn, he auto-hit and blows it up. Damn. That was stupid of me. I kill a bunch of hunters and he kills 2 purifiers, but because he damaged my rhino 3 times, he actually won combat. Luckily, I pass my No Retreat saves.


2 units of purifiers charge into the TWC melee to lend a helping hand. I believe 1 of the purifiers fail to cast Hammerhand. Also, my lone warding stave purifier charges his large grey hunter unit. Not only did I fail to cast Cleansing Flame, but I roll a 6,6 on my psychic test and then fail my 2++ warding stave test and die.


In the end though, I did manage to route his TWC.


Space Wolves 4

His traitor moves back and tries to hide behind the rhino (or so he thinks...).


Grey hunters go after my dread. Other unit of 2-hunters advance as well.


His GH-meltas and long fangs only manage to stun/shake my vendread (after a couple of re-rolls, that is ). He then multi-assaults my dread and single purifier.


He kills the purifier and I don't do anything to him.


I am having a really tough time in assault. Again, I peril on Hammerhand with boxcars (6,6). Luckily, my warding stave survives this time. I then fail to finish off his hunters.


Grey Knights 5

Overview of the beginning of Turn 5.


Interceptors automatically come in. They shunt to try to finish off his traitor.


GK movement. My purifiers go to help out my vendread. Other dreads shuffle around. All this time, I've been moving my right vendread to try to get a money-shot on his traitor.


My traitor in rhino moves back to get out of melta range of his 2-man grey hunter unit. He pops smoke.


Interceptors shot at the traitor, who goes to ground for the 3+ cover. I can't quite finish him off, only doing 1W (he's got 2W initially). However, my vendread is just barely able to see him and finishes him off. Booyah!


Purifiers join in the grey hunter-vendread melee, and I wipe them out.


However, I still cannot finish off his grey hunters here.


Space Wolves 5
I've got this game, question is, can I get the massacre?


His 2-hunter unit cannot reach my traitor's rhino so they opt to try to melta my dread instead. Unfortunately, they fail. His long fangs do, however, manage to immobilise and blow off 1 arm from my vendread in retaliation for killing his traitor.

I finally finish off his lone hunter with my purifiers in assault on the right.

We roll and the game continues.


Grey Knights 6

Overview of the beginning of Turn 6.


I want to kill those long fangs so badly. I need both units dead in order to table him.


GK movement. Purifiers go after his 2-hunter unit.

In shooting, I wreck what few vehicles he had left with my dreads.


I then kill off 3 of his left long fangs. Luckily for him, they pass morale.


On the right, my interceptor shooting is a little too good as they kill 4 long fangs with their shooting! They pass morale, and I now need a 6 for difficult terrain test in order to assault them. Unfortunately, I only roll a 5 so is just out of assault range.


Space Wolves 6
He doesn't do anything of significance this turn. He is just 2 units (5-models) away from a tabling.

We roll to see if the game continues and it doesn't.



Aftermath of the battle.

He's only got 2 units of long fangs left. I've still got 4 dreads, my interceptors, 3 squads of purifiers, 1 rhino and my traitor.

I got 18 KP's, including 5 for killing his traitor. He has 11 KP's so I only get a Major Victory. I also get +1 bonus point for killing the traitor, +1 for killing an enemy HQ and +1 for controlling more pieces of terrain than my opponet for a total of 20 points.



Majory Victory to the Grey Knights!!!

Well done!

Wow. Great report JY; I was worried because of the tournament setting you wouldn't take pictures, but thankfully you did and they were top-quality as always. Great report as ever.
As ever, I was wrong about the result of the battle, but it seemed like a really fun game although he seemed to be struggling with his meltas, as were you with your Psychic Tests!
I love how there so few infantry models left, all the rhinos are up-turned and this was the one game you said wasn't a bloodbath!
Great report man and very well played by both sides.

People crying luck just don't understand how the game works at 2500 points. What happens is that so much shooting exists on the table that when one gets a good round in, the game becomes effectively over (likewise if you survive a round of shooting with few to no casualties).

The discrepancy makes it near impossible to swing back. For example, the terminators game: sure, you killed more of them, but that's because their shooting was already crippled to begin with. The tide of battle, so to speak, was already going for you and there was little your opponent could do.

Great report and I am pleased to see my somewhat scathing assessment of the thunderwolves vindicated.

I think you got your target prioritsing pretty much spot on and you demolished what I thought to be a pretty nasty list. Nice one. I'd be very interested to here your opponent's thoughts on this battle if he's available to contribute.

the weird one wrote:Guess the traitor will do Vindicare's reputation well.

Awaiting you're awesome reports.

Unfortunately, no. The vindicare pretty much didn't do very much all day. Actually, he's pretty much been like that in most of my games. At least he's consistently mediocre.

Just Dave wrote:I too look forward to the reports. I'm thinking the Space Wolves may actually have the edge on your knights. I'm thinking you'll get two wins and a loss, the latter against the TWC IMHO. Can't wait man.

I also feel that TWC wolves match up well against my knights....if only he had kitted them all out with storm shields. He's got the mobility to minimize my shooting. He's got the shooting to take out my mobility and he's got decent troops. Luckily for him, my units are small and I will need to gang up on his TWC to do any significant damage. And those 2 lords, they're what concerns me the most. I can eliminate 1 with Crowe, but if I don't stop the other, he's going to do a lot of damage.

Spellbound wrote:I hope you don't get as lucky during the 'ard boyz games or it just won't be interesting.

Your reports are fine and all, but you're SO. DAMN. LUCKY. it makes me sick and the reports not very fun to read.

"Yeah I had a single purifier. He shrugged off over 18 power weapon wounds then killed four terminators. Yup that's how we roll"

Then later another purifier wipes out some terminators? Or a pair takes out 4 or something. And the first practice game vs BA "Yeah his shooting sucked, I passed most of my cover saves, he failed all of his and I killed four predators in one turn. Game over".

It's just kind of ridiculous. I feel like grey knights are utterly broken and the report #2 just pretty much proves it. By the third turn the kill count was what, 31 terminators to 25 of your power armor marines? You do know his are supposed to be MORE durable than yours, right? And the amount you killed in close combat because EVERY model has a force weapon....how is the codex not broken again?

I hope you played well at 'ard boyz and play well at the semifinals. I'd say "good luck", but you seem to have that down pat....

I didn't have as much luck at the Ard Boyz as I did in my practice games. Actually, I struggled at times at the Ard Boyz. In game 1 against Space Wolves, I kept failing my psychic tests for either Cleansing Flame or Hammerhand (I would say I failed at least 75% of them). And while my shooting was ok, my assault was poor in all 3 games (well, there wasn't much assault with Tau, but...). Though I admit that I did get a couple of breaks, overall, my poor assault and my inability to reliably cast psychic powers made all 3 games closer than I thought. There were no easy battles.

I don't blame you for considering the GK's broken. A lot of people do, especially when they are run by a good general. But then again, when the new IG came out, I'm sure many people thought they were broken. Same with the Space Wolves. The new GK's are very strong and against some armies, they may seem to be somewhat unfair. Unfortunately, chaos marines are one of them. We seem to be gravitating towards a more rock-paper-scissors game in which matchups are getting more and more important. Play against the wrong army in a tournament and you're looking to get tabled. Play against the right one and you'll probably table him. My all-comer's purifier list does very well against mech-lists, but sometimes have problems against foot lists like daemons (yes, I said daemons), foot Tau, terminator armies and even tyranids.

As for luck, well, nothing I can do about that. I've had my share of lucky games....and I've also had my share of games in which my dice just fails me. That's just the way it is.

Interesting game. I'm curious if Turn 1 Night Fight would have made a difference in the destruction of that first TWC unit.

Query:

jy2 wrote:Interceptors automatically come in. They shunt to try to finish off his traitor.

Can you do this? Is shunting "instead" of moving? If so, it seems like you'd have to be on the board first.

haha good call on taking down the Wolf Lord with Crowe! A great batrep as usual.

Artemo wrote:I'm going to rashly stick my neck out and make some predictions:

I think the Werewolf-wannabes will have been tough but takeable and your assassin might have proved valuable against them. I predict a close win for the GK. I've never faced Thunderwolf Cavalry though (presumably named for the tremulous rumbling of their bowels as they charge like the Light Brigade at Balaclava into a hail of (psy) cannon fire). But on the off-chance that the cowardly beasts and their gunshy over-equipped riders managed to flee in panic through your lines, they might have done some considerable damage.

The Tau, I think, might have done for you again. A lot, I think, will have hinged on the specific mission and deployment rolls. I'll be optimistic and say GK win, but this is the one I'm, most dubious about. I think either you crush him or he crushes you. No close calls here.

Third is easy to predict. The Grey Knights will have won... But I don't actually think he'd have had much chance unless he played really, really well. While his infantry should beat your squads one one one (through numbers or paladin-ness or Draigo's anti-psyker S10 hits), a lot will depend on who gets the charge. If the Vindicare managed to get a shieldbreaker against Draigo, or Crowe did his sacrificing thing (I have lost Draigo to that, which was incredibly annoying as it wasn't even Draigo who'd landed the killing blow, he was just lounging around in base contact...), that wpould have made a big dent in his killing power. And Dreadknights don't like force weapon activation much... and if you kept a couple of your Dreadnoughts up with the troops, his psychic powers wouldn't be too effective. Mindstrikes would be nasty, but assuming he's moving 12" and unloading, it limits the number he'd get off (and if at that point you're still in your vehicles, they're less effective anyway). You had the firepower to blow his 'ravens out of the sky on turn one though if he deployed them. That's what makes me think it's a win for the Purifiers and their trusty warding staves.

You are wise in the ways of the Grey Knights, young one.

I'm tempted to give out some more spoilers....but I guess I'll save them for the battle reports. Let's just say both Bobby and Gus put up a great fight.

primalexile wrote:I could not disagree with Spellbound any more. JY's Battle Reports are incredibly entertaining, I love how close a lot of the games are the fact that neither side is a blowout proves that they are more balanced then overpowered.

Keep up the good work JY!! I look forward to your Ard Boyz reports!!!

Primal Out!

Ironically, some of my better games are against some of the stronger lists and some of the closer games (and losses!) where against armies which I felt should be easier to beat.

But more than just the domination of opponents, I hope that my reports can also offer some tactical insight. For example, why would I rush headlong against 45 assault terminators. Wouldn't the normal strategy for a shooty army to be to shoot them, move back and then shoot them some more? Hmm....

Reecius wrote:@spellbound
Haha, are you seriously mad at someone for being lucky? You must realize how preposterous that sounds? He can't help it anymore than if someone else is unlucky. It sounds like you're really mad at grey knights. Mat Ward is not a competent rules writer. His books, all but space marines, are really bad. Daemons screwed up fantasy, grey knights are throwing the balance of 40k off.

Jim is a very good player and a pleasure to game against. Is he lucky? Sure. Some of our games he's gotten crazy good luck against me. Is that something to get mad about? Hardly.

Direct your anger where it belongs, otherwise it makes you look bad.

Thanks. Unfortunately, I didn't have the luck this tournament like I did in my last tournament (and against you!). You really out-foxed me that game and should've won that game, but some fortunate dice gave me the chance to come back.

BTW, congrats on placing 1st with your Black Templars at your locale. Maybe we'll face each other at the Semi's (hint, hint)....

Gus Indo wrote:he took the picture before I organized my army! lol. Its a very very mismatched Tau. The lovely blue battlesuits are from SabrX.

Yo, Gus. Great game. Honestly, I thought I could get a massacre off of you, but you made me sweat and work for it. Your Tau is a pleasure and a challenge to play against.

Also, though SabrX couldn't make it to the tournament this time, his presence (or should I say, his models) was felt throughout the tournament.

Gus was short a few models, so SabrX loaned him some of his models.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Janthkin wrote:Interesting game. I'm curious if Turn 1 Night Fight would have made a difference in the destruction of that first TWC unit.

Query:

jy2 wrote:Interceptors automatically come in. They shunt to try to finish off his traitor.

Can you do this? Is shunting "instead" of moving? If so, it seems like you'd have to be on the board first.

It probably would, though I did move up 6" to get closer to him.

I don't see why not. The FAQ only disallowed shunting for the Scout moves because the Scout USR explicitly mentioned only normal movement.

Just Dave wrote:Wow. Great report JY; I was worried because of the tournament setting you wouldn't take pictures, but thankfully you did and they were top-quality as always. Great report as ever.
As ever, I was wrong about the result of the battle, but it seemed like a really fun game although he seemed to be struggling with his meltas, as were you with your Psychic Tests!
I love how there so few infantry models left, all the rhinos are up-turned and this was the one game you said wasn't a bloodbath!
Great report man and very well played by both sides.

Yeah, with the amount of practice I've put into this army, I can play it pretty fast. As long as my opponent isn't slow, I should have enough time to take pictures. Each click is maybe 5 seconds at most. In all 3 games, I was able to take pictures and only game 2 against Tau did we not finish (he just had so much shooting).

Yeah, we both had our lumps this game. Besides my turn 1 shooting, the rest of my shooting wasn't so good and neither was his.

Fearspect wrote:People crying luck just don't understand how the game works at 2500 points. What happens is that so much shooting exists on the table that when one gets a good round in, the game becomes effectively over (likewise if you survive a round of shooting with few to no casualties).

The discrepancy makes it near impossible to swing back. For example, the terminators game: sure, you killed more of them, but that's because their shooting was already crippled to begin with. The tide of battle, so to speak, was already going for you and there was little your opponent could do.

That may be the case normally, but for some reason, it wasn't so in my games at Ard Boyz. In all 3 games, crippling damage was done on Turn 1, yet in each game, the player who was crippled came back to make it a very competitive game (now I'm not saying that I'm the one who did all the crippling).

I think some of the best armies can take a crippling alpha strike and still come back. And this is not just by luck. They've got enough redundancy and resiliency built into the design of the army that they can survive alpha strikes and still produce offense at a decent level. Unfortunately, these builds tend to be MSU-builds. That's why MSU is one of the most competitive builds currently.

Artemo wrote:Great report and I am pleased to see my somewhat scathing assessment of the thunderwolves vindicated.

I think you got your target prioritsing pretty much spot on and you demolished what I thought to be a pretty nasty list. Nice one. I'd be very interested to here your opponent's thoughts on this battle if he's available to contribute.

You are almost ready to become a jedi, ole young knight.

I don't know if Scott goes on dakkadakka, but my next 2 opponents should be able to comment on their games.

Stormcrow wrote:haha good call on taking down the Wolf Lord with Crowe! A great batrep as usual.

Crowe has been impressive indeed. Though he died to Tau shooting, he's been adding to his trophy collection and it's getting to be an impressive one:

Swarmlord, Nightbringer, Daemon Prince, Thunderwolf Wolf Lord, Draigo, many others.....

I'm not MAD at him for being lucky. I'm saying it makes the report silly and not enjoyable to read, in similar fashion to how such a game wouldn't be all that enjoyable to play. I've been in games where I do 16 wounds to a single space marine that I need dead to win the game and he shrugs them off. For several turns. When four heavy weapons wreck four vehicles in cover. When basic marines without a powerfist against a dread get four glancing hits with grenades and wreck it by stripping all weapons and immobilizing it. These things make you want to throw your hands up in the air and scream, and when several instances of them happen in a single game, they just build on each other to dice-throwing proportions.

As for the GK, I hardly think it's a "change the metagame" army. It's a "tough sh*t, take it in the face and like it" army. Fortitude? Seriously that is GAME changing and there's really nothing one can DO about it. A very basic game mechanic/strategy/efficient use of weaponry is generally if you stun a tank, you can move on to another tank because it won't be shooting you. Or you can enjoy the troops inside getting out if they want to shoot, thus counting as moving and reducing their effectiveness in shooting as well as making them vulnerable on your next turn. Shooty vehicles become useless for a turn and you can count on that, again only continuing to focus fire if you really need it dead. Otherwise, move on to the next ones to keep them from firing, too. GK? No way, they've got fortitude for FIVE POINTS. 15 for extra armour that makes stunned to shaken, 5 for an ability to just IGNORE BOTH? That is HUGE. Managed to have a good turn with good accuracy, shook all of his dreadnoughts? Well too bad, all your work is undone. Shook all of his rhinos? Sweet, now he has to get out, halving the number of shots of his psycannons and making his small [30] number of purifiers vulnerable to attack!.....oops, nope, they'll stand still and continue to fire as many shots as a devastator squad while remaining a scoring unit and daring you to try and assault them with their 6 power weapon attacks at I6.

Not every army has a psychic hood and if it's in range to use it, it's in range to be hosed by psycannons. Fortitude gives the army so many options tactically and just plain allows the army to stay incredibly deadly all the time. And that's the theme for everything in the army - incredibly deadly, all the time. Each dread is a 5-missile dev squad [due to twin-linked, effectively]. Each big strike/interceptor or small purifier/terminator squad is a 4-autocannon havoc squad - but better because they have rending. But better in cc because most have power weapons. But also CHEAPER and with FORCE weapons and anti-psychic abilities and other psychic powers to mess with deepstrike, destroy horde armies, or just plain make themselves stronger. Why? Why do they cost LESS points?

Then look at the henchmen. S8 Ap1 large blast psychic power in addition to meltaguns? Or hey, don't like space marines? Why not some S4 I6 power weapon attacks to really take the sting out of any assault?

It goes on. Shrouding, 5-point psychic powers, all of their grenades, HQ making vehicles scoring, it's just silly.

The codex is broken. Thunderwolf cavalry are a strong unit that's deadly. Dark Eldar are an army that's swift and effective. Grey Knights? Broken. Over-the-knee broken, plain and simple. They get too much, way too much, and pay way WAY too little for it all. If they paid reasonable prices for this crap it'd be ok, but they don't. The basic Strike marine's 50-ish points of free gear is testament to that.

It's safe to say I can't wait for the next report...

I was quite surprised (but hugely pleased) to see the Werewolf Wannabes crushed so comprehensively (mainly because I find them my toughest opponents).

This, I am bound to say, is your best battle report thread ever.

Excellent work jy2 for scoring a major Victory over the Space Wolves! For a second, I thought Crowe would tie up the Wolf Star for a couple of turns, but he died taking a Wolf Lord with him. Ha ha, rolling 1, 1 for the Vindicare again? The Wolf Scouts underperformed. IMO your opponent should have traded them in for a 3rd squad Long Fangs due to the nature of Scenario #1 and #3. He should have also fielded at least 1 Rune Priest for psychic defense. Aside from that, his list was pretty solid.

Overall, you did great prioritizing targets and neutralizing oncoming threats. It seems this game wasn't affected by insane luck, and reflected more on your amazing generalship.

Thanks for sharing another excellent battle report! I look forward to reading your next matches against Gus and Bobby.

@Spellbound:

Part of the fun in dice rolling is unexpected random events, in which something statistically on average shouldn't happened does happen. Luck enhances the overall gaming experience. Sure it sucks to be on the wrong side of miss fortune for an entire game, but that seldom happens (unless you are me, who has experienced it in 4 consecutive games against jy2). If you don't enjoy that 'random' factor, then consider playing more controlled and predictable games such as Chess or Checkers.

Having said that, I do agree with you and Reecius that Mat Ward f'ed up big time with the codices he wrote for both 40k and Fantasy. The only glaring contradiction is his role with Curddace in nerfing the heck out of white dwarf codex Sisters of Battle.

But let's not get off topic. This thread is focused on jy2's preparations and performance for Ard Boyz. He did a lot of practice games, testing his list against various and different army styles. Whatever the outcome is, he definitely deserved it for all the hard work he put in.

@Gus:

I'm glad you had a good time. I look forward to reading jy2's second btrp.

Luck can be a double edged sword. My friend scored a 26-0 massacre in round 1 of the qualifier, then in round 2 he got eaten alive by dice. His opponent made.....SEVEN (7)......KFF saves against as many Penetrating hits on turn 1 alone, when he should have made 4 on the high end of average. This basically handed a minor defeat to my friend who could not stop the Orks from charging headlong into him and pinning him in his deployment zone on an objective mission. Apparently his luck was like that all game, and my friend had to fight tooth and nail to keep from getting massacred.

Dice are dice. On any given day, they can decide that you look quite delicious, and should perhaps be barbecued by an opponent who should not win. It's part of the game we play.

Can't say I enjoy seeing you win over Space Wolves, but it was well played! Congratz on your win .

Good job handling the wolves. One thing of note. In turn 4 you mention the following:

I kill a bunch of hunters and he kills 2 purifiers, but because he damaged my rhino 3 times, he actually won combat. Luckily, I pass my No Retreat saves.

For future reference only damage results vs walkers in multi-combat count towards combat results. (although unsaved wounds from vehicle explosions do count) refer to page 63 second column, first paragraph, last sentence.

I am eagerly awaiting the rest of the reports.

Spellbound,

While I understand your frustration with the Grey Knight codex, singling out JY2 in his own battle reports for using them effectively isn't the way to make your displeasure known. He's working very hard to make enjoyable battle reports filled with tactical insights not just for the Grey Knights, but for the armies he faces as well, and we should be encouraging him to write more reports instead of berating him for what he's accomplished. Complaining in this particular thread is even worse, because it's a 'Ard Boyz thread where everyone is expected to bring their "A" game.

Keep up the excellent work, JY2. Whether or not a battle is a landslide makes no difference in the quality of your reports. Can't wait for the next one!

Zarry

@spellbound

While I think that the GK codex is diverse and powerful. I do not see it as being OTT. I have yet to loose a game against them with my DE and yesterday I nearly tabled (he had one dread that just would not die) a GK player for game 3 Ard Boyz getting me second place. This is against good experienced players bringing everything from purifier spam and dragiowing to everything in between.

My point is if my hybrid DE army can consistently beat GK then the dex is not OTT. You just need some time to get used to them.

Ard Boyz Game #2 vs Tau


I'm finding Tau to be the perfect foil to my mechanized Grey Knights. Actually, they're the perfect foil to almost all mech-MEQ lists. They've got enough shooting to take out transports. With just 6 rhinos, this is not incredibly hard for them to do. Their infantry shooting is often under-estimated. And lastly, they don't care about how great the knights are in assault. To them, we are just another MEQ rhino-rush army.

What's more, Gus is playing a foot-Tau army. He just doesn't care too much about my AT. All his suits/broadsides have ablative wounds in the form of gun/shield drones so he can take some shooting from my psyfleman dreads. Damn those broadside shield drones and their 2+ saves. I may have to ignore them (except for my vindicare). Also, he's got 2 squads of pathfinders. There goes my plan to take out his pathfinders. 1 I can handle. 2 would require just too much resource to neutralize. So I can't fire at his broadsides and I can't fire at his pathfinders? Then what can I shoot at?

Finally, Gus just doesn't fail his LD tests against me. The only time he failed it, it worked to his advantage, taking his kroots out of my assault range. Then next turn, they regrouped and he shot down my exposed unit. Whereas others fail their morale against me regularly (I've taken out 3 squads of 3 broadsides in 2 games against others by having them fail morale and run off the board from my shooting), Gus' super-kroots and infantry must have LD 11 or something. I just can't get them to run off the board.

Despite all this, I won't be satisfied with anything less than a victory, and I actually thought I could pull off a Massacre. Talk about delusions of grandeur.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


2500 Grey Knights - Purifier-Dreads (My list)

Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer, 1x Warding Stave

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


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2500 Tau



Shas'O - Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Blacksun Filter, HW-Multi-tracker, Stimulant Injector, 2x Shield Drones
2x Bodyguards - Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-tracker, Targeting Array, 1x w/Blacksun Filter

3x Crisis Suits - TL-Missile Pods, Blacksun Filter, 2x Gun Drones
3x Crisis Suits - TL-Missile Pods, Blacksun Filter, 2x Gun Drones
3x Crisis Suits - TL-Missile Pods, Blacksun Filter, 2x Gun Drones

12x Firewarriors w/Sergeant
12x Firewarriors w/Sergeant
12x Kroots w/5x Hounds
12x Kroots w/5x Hounds
11x Kroots w/4x Hounds

8x Pathfinders - Devilfish w/Disruption Pods
8x Pathfinders - Devilfish w/Disruption Pods

3x Broadsides - Advanced Stabilisation Systems, Leader w/Blacksun Filter, Target Lock, 2x Shield Drones
3x Broadsides - Advanced Stabilisation Systems, Leader w/Blacksun Filter, Target Lock, 2x Shield Drones
Hammerhead - Railgun, Blacksun Filter, Disruption Pods, Multi-tracker, Target Lock


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Scenario #2 - Whoz Got Da Motz!

Mission: Seize Ground - 5 Objectives

1 objective in the center of the map and 1 objective in the center of each of the 4 table quarters.

Center objective = 4 points

Objectives in deployment quarters = 1 point each

Objectives in empty quarters = 2 points each

Massacre = 5+ points, Major victory = 3-4 points, Minor victory = 1-2 points.

Deployment: Spearhead

Initiative: Grey Knights

Special Rules: No infiltrating, scouting or outflanking! Night-fighting on Turn 6.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:
I want to apologize in advance for the lighting in the photos, but there was a skylight above our table. This made the photos bright in some areas and dark in others.

Map of Terrain:


My deployment:



Tau deployment:


My opponent fails to seize the initiative.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 1

Grey knights advance 12". Crowe steals a rhino. Left-most rhino immobilizes itself despite the re-roll from the dozers. The 3 right rhinos pop smoke.


My shooting wrecks his hammerhead. I also reduce 1 unit of deathrains to just 2 suits (of which 1 took a wound). He passes morale.

Vindicare fails to kill a broadside (he misses with a 1,2).

Now some may wonder why I didn't go after his broadsides or pathfinders. He had just too many pathfinders and to kill his broadsides, I would have to waste the firepower to kill his 2 2+ shield drones first. It's just not very efficient to try to take them down. I opted to go for the easier kills.


Tau 1

Tau movement.


Deathrains wreck 1 rhino. He then shoots down 2 purifiers.


He then disables 2 more rhinos (1 wreck and 1 explosion). Luckily for me, no one is killed in the explosion.

Wow....4 rhinos down in 1 turn. This brings back memories....bad memories....


Grey Knights 2

Purifiers move down 1 level. I'm already planning on how I'm going to get to my objectives.


Crowe disembarks from his rhino and heads towards the kroots. Purifiers shuffle around.


Interceptors shunt to his left flank. I try to use the hill to block LOS from the rest of his army (or most of it anyways). Purifiers disembark from the immobilised rhino and advance.


They both fire at the kroots and take down about half the squad. Kroots would then pass morale (this would be a recurring theme in this game...again).


My 2 left dreads fire at his devilfish. I want to take away his ability to get to the objectives. I explode one and only shake the other. The explosion kills 2 firewarriors. I then concentrate the majority of my firepower into his HQ unit. I kill both shield drones and both bodyguards, but his commander still lives. He passes morale.

Vindicare aims for his broadsides again, but this time, I fail to wound with my turbo-penetrator 2W shot.


In other shooting, I put another 1W on his depleted deathrain unit. Crowe then assaults into his kroots.


I opt not to use Cleansing Flamer and instead, I parry. Unfortunately, after the re-rolls I still take 1W.


Tau 2

Kroots go after my interceptors.


The rest of his army's movement. Gun drones disembark from the shaken devilfish.


Markerlights and suits take out 4 purifiers (the ones that just disembarked from my immobilised rhino last turn).


I believe his firewarriors finish off the sole survivor.


He also explodes 1 rhino and shakes the other. The focus-fire reduces the unit to just 1 guy....


...who then eats a target lock broadside railgun to the face (I think).


Finally, his broadsides wreck a normal dread.


In assault, his suits take a step and a hop back. Crowe parries...and then fails to cast Cleansing Flame!


Finally, his kroots charge. I forget to cast Hammerhand.


I fail miserably in assault and fail to kill a single kroot. He kills my psycannon knight, and we remain locked in combat.


Wow...another rough turn for my purifiers. I lose 2 full squads of purifiers, 1 dread and 1 rhino. I then fail miserably in assault with Crowe and my interceptors. I've only got 1 working rhino right now and a bunch of knights on foot who can't get cover saves from his shooting. Not looking too good.

Worse yet, it's only been 2 turns.


To be continued.....


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 3

Overview of the beginning of Turn 3.


GK movement. Purifiers climb down the ruins and start to make a move for the 2pt objective. Rhino fortitudes off the shaken and tankshocks 12" I hit his kroots, suits and firewarriors but they all pass their morale tests. Dammit. Even if I lose this game, it'll be a moral victory if I can make at least 1 unit fail morale and flee (and not from assault).


Shooting kills 2 deathrain suits from 1 unit and 1 from another. I also kill some kroot. They ALL proceed to pass morale.


Crowe then gets fed up and casts Cleansing Flame, killing 9 kroots. He then sweeps them. I know, I know....I should have waited until next turn to cast CF, but I just lost patience then and we were running low on time.

But the truth was, I wanted him to waste his firepower on Crowe. Take him out, I don't care. As long as it buys some time for my purifiers from getting shot down. Yes, he may win the battle....but I plan on winning the game.


Actually, wait....one of his suits did fail morale and huff it off the board on his turn (the lone, unpainted crisis model). Yeah! Now I can lose the game in peace....NOT! It ain't over til the plump lady sings....


Another round of fail for my interceptors. Despite Hammerhand going off, they only kill 1 kroot.... yes, they pass morale as well.


Tau 3

Tau movement. Firewarriors get on their devilfish and make a play for the 2pt objective.


Fire warriors double-tap Crowe. Crowe only has 1 wound left. I go on to pass 12 saves! Oh wait, what? 13 wounds? No prob. I take my last save (the big red die) and roll a 1. Doh!


Crowe is no more. Would you believe me if I told you that I'm actually glad he killed Crowe? Let's just say, he took one for the Greater Good.


BS5 broadsides blow up a regular dread sans cover.


Finally, he kills off 4 of 5 purifiers with his deathrain + HQ unit.


He is unable to shoot down my last mobile rhino so is forced to assault it. I hope it blows up and takes a lot of Tau with it. Well, it doesn't.


Then his 4 ironclads assault my lone knight....oh wait, wrong game.


Finally, his 2 gun drones charge in to help out his kroots. Finally I am able to break his kroots....but his darn drones pass morale on a 4 and hold up my interceptors for another turn! WTF!


Grey Knights 4
Ok, we decided that this would be the last game turn. There just wasn't enough time to fit in another 2 player turns after this.


I make a play for the 2pt objective as well. Vendread moves to within 12" of his devilfish's disruption pods. Stupid knights. They only run 1" and won't be able to reach the objective. My mobile rhino, instead of tankshocking some more (I really wanted to do it), does the more sensible thing and moves back to protect my dread and hopefully to block LOS to infantry.


Rear purifiers, however, make it to the other 2pt objective.


I shoot down both of his gun drones on his Shas'O's unit. Naturally, they pass morale.


Vendread blows up his devilfish. 4 dies in the explosion. Then Gus couldn't have picked a worse time to fail morale, pinning his fire warriors so close to the 2pt objective. Yes, I have been vindicated at last.

Finally, my interceptors finish off his 2 gun drones in assault.


Tau 4

Overview of the bottom of 4.

Right now, I've got the middle objective and my 2pt objective. Gus only has his 1pt objective so if he cannot contest the middle objective or blow away my 5 purifiers on the 2pt objective, it will be a Massacre for me (if he can do both, then it would be a victory for him).

Would you believe I planned this all along?


Tau movement. Suits advance.


He wrecks my rhino and then shoots down all but 1 purifier by the center objective. His marketlights hit my vendread and then broadsides blow it up. In his assault phase, his XV88's then jump and make it into contesting range (though 1 suit does takes 1W from dangerous terrain).

However, that sapped up all his firepower and he couldn't fire at my other unit.


He's only got his 1pt objective. I've got the 2pt objective and the center objective is contested. I also get +1 bonus point because he has no units in my deployment zone for a total of 14 points.




Minor Victory to the Grey Knights!!!

Heh, I guess your "awesome luck" hasn't quite kicked in yet

He has no Piranhas? He seems to have gone all-out on Firepower with this list.

I suppose a few piranhas could have done me good, but as with last game against jy2, they would have died immediately. He knows what to kill with his dreads.

Well, just reserve them?

16 Pathfinders, whoa. Why so many? To make sure you finish off Deathstar units?

Sacred Feth! I just picked up this thread a day ago and JY2, i am seriously impressed with your skills. I may have little actual combat experience in 40k, mainly because i just started my first real army, but after reading this thread and some of your other batreps, i seriously have not been able to find a more entertaining and informative series of batreps on this, and several other sites. way to go with the first match and I'm right there with all the other guys on waiting for the continuation.

jy2 Not to whine but I think you cannot shunt on to the board because I believe you have to be on the board to hence move on with regular then you can activate wargear.

looks rough against those Tau.... grats against the wolves tho! sweet victory against the damn puppies

Backfire wrote:Well, just reserve them?

16 Pathfinders, whoa. Why so many? To make sure you finish off Deathstar units?

I just like markerlights! Also great for taking down stormraven's cover and upping BS to guarantee a kill. I didn't let a stormraven through my lines this tourney. (faced 4) I suppose it could be for deathstar units, but I didn't face any that I bothered killing. Game 1 I also fought 30 death company, but I ran them around with 2 drones, what a silly unit.

Scary Tau list IMO. But what do I know, I've only played as high as a 2k game.

Jesus Christ people! Jy2 I like your games and I like your reports. I didn't like reading those TWO reports because the luck was so one-sided it made them uninteresting.

That's my opinion. That's how I feel. That's the feeling I got when reading them.

Jy2 you're a great guy and yes, I think your tactics are great, your target priority is spot-on, and your list is solid. I'm enjoying your battle reports of the tournament immensely as you prevail in difficult situations against other very skilled opponents.

To all the posters that jumped on me, back off. I responded with my opinion of the codex. I think it's broken and yes, while I win games against grey knights SOME of the time with my chaos army it's an incredibly uphill battle that I feel is way way OTT and unnecessary. Blood angels and de can give me hard games too but not the way GK just dump out dice for shooting like the chessex factory exploded and then laugh when I try to assault them. This place is a forum where opinions are expressed, and this battle report thread features grey knights and the tactics used with them as well as the strengths and weaknesses of the list. I've insulted no-one, and my comments are pertinent to the army represented in the thread's reports.

So chill, back off, and let's read some more battle reports.

The Vindicare seems underwelming. How fast until he changes to a Techmarine for the grenades and repair ability?

I think that though the Vindicare has thus far performed poorly for jv2, that's actually more bad luck than anything. While it's my view that the Vindicare is a rather hit or miss model, it can have a decisive influence on a gamwe, and even when it doesn't, it tends to attract fire away from othe runits for a turn at least. At 2500 points it represents just under 6% of the total force value and can be safely seen as 'expendable' and worth the investment in points. It may fail to recoup its value (but will be a trivial loss) but equally it may make many times its value (which would be a significant gain).

I favor the double punch of techmarine AND vindicare, hunkered down in bolstered ruins for the 2+ cover

techmarine means one less venerable dreadnought. Not, in my view, a good exchange in a Crowe/Purifier/Dreadnought list.

I don't feel JY would need the aid of a techmarine as much, as he's got no real dedicated assault units to make the most of rad-grenades, whilst the venerable psyflemen clearly work very well for him!
I agree with Artemo's assessment of the Vindicare; he is hit and miss, but when he hits, he does so with the strength of a... uhhh... vindicare! Add to that his points cost and he seems like a reasonable option to me; at least until a better alternative can be found!
I'd wonder about potentially more interceptors or upgrading some rhinos to razorbacks as a potential alternative; but a Vindicare seems very reasonable for the time being! Obviously JY knows his list as well, which is the crux of the matter IMHO.

As ever, looking forward to the rest of the battle report; this is going to be a real nail-biter!

Basically a Vindicare in cover will die to 5 or 6 BS4 S8+ attacks. In reinforced cover that would be 11 attacks. A significant improvement...

But not at the cost of removing a venerable dreadnought from the list who it takes 13 such attacks to remove, 26 if he's in cover...

The techmarine can also repair a weapon destroyed or immobilised on a dead at 4+ (even a rhino). Rerollable with a psychic test.

DarthDiggler wrote:The techmarine can also repair a weapon destroyed or immobilised on a dead at 4+ (even a rhino). Rerollable with a psychic test.

I think techmarines are better in Draigowing style lists or in Henchmen style lists. Yes he can repair vehicles but he is much better as a grenadier and assisting squads that are focused on assaulting instead of running behind vehicles and fixing them.

Backfire wrote:Heh, I guess your "awesome luck" hasn't quite kicked in yet

He has no Piranhas? He seems to have gone all-out on Firepower with this list.

Not much luck at the Ard Boyz. All the games were a grind, both for me and my opponent (with probably the exception of Gus' Tau).

Yeah, I thought he could use some piranhas as well, but in the end, it seems as if he did alright with just the 2 pathfinder units.

Gus Indo wrote:I suppose a few piranhas could have done me good, but as with last game against jy2, they would have died immediately. He knows what to kill with his dreads.

Whoa, I'm flattered that you changed your list because of me. j.k.

Those 2 squads of pathfinders proved to be quite effective, as is your overall list.

metalgear1313 wrote:Sacred Feth! I just picked up this thread a day ago and JY2, i am seriously impressed with your skills. I may have little actual combat experience in 40k, mainly because i just started my first real army, but after reading this thread and some of your other batreps, i seriously have not been able to find a more entertaining and informative series of batreps on this, and several other sites. way to go with the first match and I'm right there with all the other guys on waiting for the continuation.

Thanks! I try to make my reports entertaining as well as informative. I'm glad you like them. My skills are ok, though a lot of times, I forget to do the little things (like cast Hammerhand in combat!).

Game #2 will be out a little later today.

rovian wrote:jy2 Not to whine but I think you cannot shunt on to the board because I believe you have to be on the board to hence move on with regular then you can activate wargear.

As you are the second person to ask about this, I've asked this question here at YMDC.

I'm pretty sure you can shunt from reserves. You just can't do it with your Scout move, which is what was FAQ'd. When you come in from reserves, you can turbo-boost, move flat-out, pop smoke, etc. The only restriction is that you must declare deepstriking, outflanking or any other special forms of deployment (i.e. ymgarl's special deployment rule) and the model has to be able to move entirely onto the table. If you have any powers/special rules that say they are used at the beginning of your turn (i.e. some psychic powers) then you wouldn't be able to use those as well as you are not in play yet (there is 1 exception, which I believe is one of those Space Wolf special rules). But these special rules (i.e. psychic communion) explicitly state that they are done at the beginning of the turn, implying that you have to already be on the board to use them. However, shunting is not one of these powers.

You shunt instead of moving normally correct? So if you move on to the board you have already moved and therefore cannot shunt.

No...you shunt onto the board instead of moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We should take it to YMDC...jy2 has put a thread up there so we should use it.

Why would you be able to turbo-boost onto the board but not shunt. I am baffled.

Game #2 vs Tau finished on p.4.

WOW! Despite bad luck and your forces getting shot to bits, you scrape by with a minor victory. I'm sure other players would have given up and threw in the towel early, but you stick to it till the end, and got rewarded with a win. Congrats, I look forward to reading you next game against Bobby.

@Gus:

Ouch, failing a pinning test right when it mattered the most. For the most part, your tactics were solid. Good job taking Crowe out and passing so many moral tests. IMO, you should have won, but lack of mobility hindered your units from contesting. Your list could used a single squad of Piranhas. It really helps blocking vehicles or contesting late game.

Did.... Not.....See..................wow. That's all I can say. Incredible game, with a completely unthinkable endiing. As always, a very interesting game and a nice conclusion. I think that with the spearhead setup, it forced the tau player to bottle up his guys, and if he failed his LD tests, that would have been that for a bunch of those guys. Still to pass almost every test!?! That was insane, I hope that the dice looked more favorably on you in the third game and that those LD test were more effective

another thing, and i agree with Sabrx on this, the lack of any real mobility imo severely limited his options in terms of this scernario he played, my guess is he was hopin to pound whoever played against him to a bloody pulp and then rush his troops at the objectives.

Anyways, good game and looking forward to the next one

Haha, objectives games against SAFH lists are so easy once you realize that it doesn't matter how many guys you lose as long as you have one dude on an objective at the end of the game. The trick is not to get demoralized, right? Good call eliminating what little mobility he had early on. You played the mission and not the opponent and got the win.

Excellent reports! I'm waiting anxiously for number 3.

Zid wrote:looks rough against those Tau.... grats against the wolves tho! sweet victory against the damn puppies

Yeah, it was a really tough battle against Gus' Tau, but I stuck to my gameplan and it worked. I'm finding Tau to be quite a challenge for my mech-GK's and Gus is quite the Tau general. BTW, he made it to the Semi's as well as he tabled his last opponent (another GK player).

I play Space Wolves as well and I know how good and dangerous they, especially TWC-wolves. That was actually the army I was most concerned about.

Gus Indo wrote:
I just like markerlights! Also great for taking down stormraven's cover and upping BS to guarantee a kill. I didn't let a stormraven through my lines this tourney. (faced 4) I suppose it could be for deathstar units, but I didn't face any that I bothered killing. Game 1 I also fought 30 death company, but I ran them around with 2 drones, what a silly unit.

Not just that, but you didn't let any rhinos through as well. Well, 1 maybe...but it was empty.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Scary Tau list IMO. But what do I know, I've only played as high as a 2k game.

It's also pretty dang good at 2K also. I've only lost 3 times with my purifiers...and all were to foot-armies - Gus' Tau, Janthkin's Tyranids and another GK player with stormbolter-spam foot-knights.

Spellbound wrote:
To all the posters that jumped on me, back off. I responded with my opinion of the codex. I think it's broken and yes, while I win games against grey knights SOME of the time with my chaos army it's an incredibly uphill battle that I feel is way way OTT and unnecessary. Blood angels and de can give me hard games too but not the way GK just dump out dice for shooting like the chessex factory exploded and then laugh when I try to assault them. This place is a forum where opinions are expressed, and this battle report thread features grey knights and the tactics used with them as well as the strengths and weaknesses of the list. I've insulted no-one, and my comments are pertinent to the army represented in the thread's reports.

That's cool. I'm not offended or anything and can understand your frustration with them. I'm sure a lot of people don't like the new grey knights, especially people playing some of the older armies. They've just got too many tools to deal with almost any type of situation and/or threats....and they are under-costed for some of the things they can do. Unfortunately, they're out there, and you're going to see them a lot in tournaments. Now you may not like them, but you're still going to have to play against them if you're into the tournament scene. As for myself, I tend to have a more posititive attitude. I look at tougher armies as a challenge waiting to be overcome rather than just as a "broken" army/build.

DarthDiggler wrote:The Vindicare seems underwelming. How fast until he changes to a Techmarine for the grenades and repair ability?

Actually, I've already decided to drop him from my regular 2K list. But you tend to see a lot of land raiders at the Ard Boyz level. Thus I may require his services again.

I've been considering the techmarine, but at this point I am not sure I will be using him. While he is a good unit and brings a lot of benefits to the army, I actually don't think he fits into my list. I will experiment with him in some casual games.

Artemo wrote:I think that though the Vindicare has thus far performed poorly for jv2, that's actually more bad luck than anything. While it's my view that the Vindicare is a rather hit or miss model, it can have a decisive influence on a gamwe, and even when it doesn't, it tends to attract fire away from othe runits for a turn at least. At 2500 points it represents just under 6% of the total force value and can be safely seen as 'expendable' and worth the investment in points. It may fail to recoup its value (but will be a trivial loss) but equally it may make many times its value (which would be a significant gain).

Well said. He's been mainly miss so far, but at the Ard Boyz level, he does fill a niche, just like tyrannofexes in a tyranid army. You tend to see a lot of land raiders at the Ard Boyz level and to a lesser extent, leman-russ spam. Well, he is my LR-buster.

He is also a good psychological threat. Unfortunately, the more experienced players tend to ignore him until there are no better targets around. That's what both Gus and Bobby did, and that's what I would have done also.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spellbound wrote:I favor the double punch of techmarine AND vindicare, hunkered down in bolstered ruins for the 2+ cover

I've actually considered that as well, though I don't think it is a very efficient build. I would play that combo in casual games against less competitive opponents, but I'd be gimping myself if I take that combo against more experienced players.

But I'm looking at it from the perspective of a Crowe-purifier mech-build. In other builds (i.e. paladins and stormravens), it may work, but that is not a build I have much experience with.

Artemo wrote:techmarine means one less venerable dreadnought. Not, in my view, a good exchange in a Crowe/Purifier/Dreadnought list.

Wow, Artemo. I am really impressed with your perspectives on the Grey Knights and especially, the Crowe-Purifier-dread build. Exactly my thoughts as well.

Just Dave wrote:I don't feel JY would need the aid of a techmarine as much, as he's got no real dedicated assault units to make the most of rad-grenades, whilst the venerable psyflemen clearly work very well for him!
I agree with Artemo's assessment of the Vindicare; he is hit and miss, but when he hits, he does so with the strength of a... uhhh... vindicare! Add to that his points cost and he seems like a reasonable option to me; at least until a better alternative can be found!
I'd wonder about potentially more interceptors or upgrading some rhinos to razorbacks as a potential alternative; but a Vindicare seems very reasonable for the time being! Obviously JY knows his list as well, which is the crux of the matter IMHO.

As ever, looking forward to the rest of the battle report; this is going to be a real nail-biter!

After this, I'm going to be playing around with my interceptor-build some more. I think they really have potential. I actually played List #2 against the same Deathwing army that faced my List #1. I will post up that batrep at a later date (after I'm done with my Ard Boyz battle reports). What I want to do is test it against Gus' Tau. His army has been giving my mech-purifiers fits.

I also want to experiment with psybacks in my purifier list. You're see them in future batreps.

DarthDiggler wrote:The techmarine can also repair a weapon destroyed or immobilised on a dead at 4+ (even a rhino). Rerollable with a psychic test.

Actually, I feel this would actually hurt the chemistry of my list. Rhinos with dozers rarely immobilise themselves unless if they take damage from shooting. And they're just too fast for the slow techmarine. Now if you put the techie with the purifiers in a rhino, you can be sure that rhino is target numero uno.

As for my dreads, they're already too damn tough to shoot down. Against all my opponents, only Gus was able to take down the most dreads - 3 out of 5. Few can take out more than that and none have wiped out all my dreads. I really don't need the techmarine to make them more resilient.

What I do need is more bodies. I will be swapping out the vindicare for more infantry, whether it be more purifiers or a unit of interceptors.

unityvybe wrote:
I think techmarines are better in Draigowing style lists or in Henchmen style lists. Yes he can repair vehicles but he is much better as a grenadier and assisting squads that are focused on assaulting instead of running behind vehicles and fixing them.

Agreed.

jy2 wrote: I will post up that batrep at a later date (after I'm done with my Ard Boyz battle reports). What I want to do is test it against Gus' Tau. His army has been giving my mech-purifiers fits.

Bring it on! I also want to test my Footdar against Grey Knights sometime. I think Purifiers will be the bane of my army.

Yeah, jump infantry is the bane of Tau, especially ones with Force Weapons and Str5 storm bolters. You may want to field a lot more Kroots, Gus.

Tomb King wrote:You shunt instead of moving normally correct? So if you move on to the board you have already moved and therefore cannot shunt.

I think the confusion here is with the Scout move. The Scout USR specifically mentions that the unit makes a normal move. Coming in from reserves has no such restriction where it pertains to what type of movement you make to enter the board (as long as you are wholly on the board).

The way I look at it (and barring any explicit restrictions), you can always run instead of shooting. You can always turbo-boost/move flat-out instead of moving. You can always shunt instead of moving (as long as you only do it once per game and not with your Scout move).

Lukus83 wrote:No...you shunt onto the board instead of moving.

We should take it to YMDC...jy2 has put a thread up there so we should use it.

Well put. Thanks.

Spellbound wrote:Why would you be able to turbo-boost onto the board but not shunt. I am baffled.

That's the thing. Shunting is a form of movement just like turbo-boosting or moving flat-out. Except for the Scout move (since it has been FAQ'd as such), you should always be able to shunt in place of moving normally, as long as it is done only once per game.

SabrX wrote:Yeah, jump infantry is the bane of Tau, especially ones with Force Weapons and Str5 storm bolters. You may want to field a lot more Kroots, Gus.

'

I was thinking that purifiers were the bane of my footdar. I've faced interceptors a few times, in the early weeks after the GK codex came out and always come out on top.

More kroot? I may include another unit in my main list, but I don't want to draw down on any firepower.

jy2 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I don't feel JY would need the aid of a techmarine as much, as he's got no real dedicated assault units to make the most of rad-grenades, whilst the venerable psyflemen clearly work very well for him!
I agree with Artemo's assessment of the Vindicare; he is hit and miss, but when he hits, he does so with the strength of a... uhhh... vindicare! Add to that his points cost and he seems like a reasonable option to me; at least until a better alternative can be found!
I'd wonder about potentially more interceptors or upgrading some rhinos to razorbacks as a potential alternative; but a Vindicare seems very reasonable for the time being! Obviously JY knows his list as well, which is the crux of the matter IMHO.

As ever, looking forward to the rest of the battle report; this is going to be a real nail-biter!

After this, I'm going to be playing around with my interceptor-build some more. I think they really have potential. I actually played List #2 against the same Deathwing army that faced my List #1. I will post up that batrep at a later date (after I'm done with my Ard Boyz battle reports). What I want to do is test it against Gus' Tau. His army has been giving my mech-purifiers fits.

I also want to experiment with psybacks in my purifier list. You're see them in future batreps.

Can hardly wait man!

Great report as ever against the Tau; really close game. Despite their weaknesses they clearly do give your Knights a run for their money; lucky or not. Really entertaining game though and went right to the wire; great tactics from both you and Gus. Tau always suffer in objective games anyways. Really looking forward to your next report!

SabrX wrote:WOW! Despite bad luck and your forces getting shot to bits, you scrape by with a minor victory. I'm sure other players would have given up and threw in the towel early, but you stick to it till the end, and got rewarded with a win. Congrats, I look forward to reading you next game against Bobby.

@Gus:

Ouch, failing a pinning test right when it mattered the most. For the most part, your tactics were solid. Good job taking Crowe out and passing so many moral tests. IMO, you should have won, but lack of mobility hindered your units from contesting. Your list could used a single squad of Piranhas. It really helps blocking vehicles or contesting late game.

Strategy-wise, my aggressiveness was just a feint. I just wanted to keep him in his deployment zone. I was going to pull back after advancing. I knew he could out-shoot me, though I did under-estimate the amount of damage he caused. As long as I could keep his Movement Phase contained and survive his Shooting Phase, I was actually pretty confident of a victory. It was a nervous game because I almost didn't survive his Shooting phases.

That's also why I destroyed his tanks even though they were of a lower priority threat. It was all a part of my plan to restrict his mobility.

metalgear1313 wrote: Did.... Not.....See..................wow. That's all I can say. Incredible game, with a completely unthinkable endiing. As always, a very interesting game and a nice conclusion. I think that with the spearhead setup, it forced the tau player to bottle up his guys, and if he failed his LD tests, that would have been that for a bunch of those guys. Still to pass almost every test!?! That was insane, I hope that the dice looked more favorably on you in the third game and that those LD test were more effective

another thing, and i agree with Sabrx on this, the lack of any real mobility imo severely limited his options in terms of this scernario he played, my guess is he was hopin to pound whoever played against him to a bloody pulp and then rush his troops at the objectives.

Anyways, good game and looking forward to the next one

Yeah, that last LD fail by his firewarriors was huge. If they had not failed it, he might have won.

I think he took a gamble on this list because 1) it was an anti-meta list and should do well against all the armies that bring a lot of AT with them (like mine) and 2) 2 out of the 3 missions did not involve objectives. He would do great with this list in those and hope to wing it on scenario #2.

jy2 wrote:
Yeah, that last LD fail by his firewarriors was huge. If they had not failed it, he might have won.

I think he took a gamble on this list because 1) it was an anti-meta list and should do well against all the armies that bring a lot of AT with them (like mine) and 2) 2 out of the 3 missions did not involve objectives. He would do great with this list in those and hope to wing it on scenario #2.

If the firewarriors had gotten their movement next turn I would have taken the win, but I'm overall very happy with the results of the tourney. If I had won, my 3rd round match would have been much harder, and despite having such a close match, we both made it to the top 3, so I couldn't be happier.

Its also true that my list wasted the opponent's anti-tank, and because there were no objectives for most of the tourney, I had a great chance with games 1 and 3. In fact, both games without objectives I either wiped out my opponent or left him with a squad of death company chasing drones around his deployment zone.

Despite bad luck and your forces getting shot to bits, you scrape by with a minor victory

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never ... Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy

I thought the warding staff could only be used for wounds caused by close combat and not perils as you did?

Nope...the wording for the warding stave is "against wounds caused in close combat". Since you are in close combat when you take the perils you may take the save. For clarification it's also different to the nemesis force sword which only increases your invulnerable save by +1 "against close combat attacks". Wording is slightly different but the ramifications are big.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And regarding the game vs Tau...Well played by jy2. By focussing on the suits you were able to stop him from eliminating your scoring units so effectively. A tough game considering the amount oif firepower he had on the table, but by thinking well ahead to the objectives you scraped the win.

That said it does look like the game was very one sided. With slightly different dice rolls that could have been a very unpleasant match.

Regardless, great game and good luck to both of you at the next round.

Droofus wrote:Haha, objectives games against SAFH lists are so easy once you realize that it doesn't matter how many guys you lose as long as you have one dude on an objective at the end of the game. The trick is not to get demoralized, right? Good call eliminating what little mobility he had early on. You played the mission and not the opponent and got the win.

Excellent reports! I'm waiting anxiously for number 3.

Thanks. Spoken like a true strategist.

Gus Indo wrote:
Bring it on! I also want to test my Footdar against Grey Knights sometime. I think Purifiers will be the bane of my army.

Looking forward to it. I have yet to play footdar. Seems like a fun and challenging army to play against.

And Eldrad is the bane of my army.

SabrX wrote:Yeah, jump infantry is the bane of Tau, especially ones with Force Weapons and Str5 storm bolters. You may want to field a lot more Kroots, Gus.

Only in numbers. Tau can handle 1 or 2 units easily enough, but if the entire army is fast, that's when Tau has problems.

But I'm slowly getting there. My 30 interceptors will be done soon enough.

Gus Indo wrote:
I was thinking that purifiers were the bane of my footdar. I've faced interceptors a few times, in the early weeks after the GK codex came out and always come out on top.

More kroot? I may include another unit in my main list, but I don't want to draw down on any firepower.

Wait til you face 30 interceptors commandeered by me. It'll be quite different from my purifier build.

Just Dave wrote:
Can hardly wait man!

Great report as ever against the Tau; really close game. Despite their weaknesses they clearly do give your Knights a run for their money; lucky or not. Really entertaining game though and went right to the wire; great tactics from both you and Gus. Tau always suffer in objective games anyways. Really looking forward to your next report!

Gus' Tau has been an absolute terror to most of the MEQ players he has faced, including both mine and my next opponent, Bobby's grey knights. With the exception of my army, he absolutely destroyed his other 2 MEQ opponents at the Ard Boyz, and he also did quite a number on mine.

Gus Indo wrote:
If the firewarriors had gotten their movement next turn I would have taken the win, but I'm overall very happy with the results of the tourney. If I had won, my 3rd round match would have been much harder, and despite having such a close match, we both made it to the top 3, so I couldn't be happier.

Its also true that my list wasted the opponent's anti-tank, and because there were no objectives for most of the tourney, I had a great chance with games 1 and 3. In fact, both games without objectives I either wiped out my opponent or left him with a squad of death company chasing drones around his deployment zone.

Yeah, it turned out quite well for all of us. Janthkin's nids would have been a tough battle for you next round had you beaten me.

Depending on the scenarios for the Semi's, you may have to change up your Tau list somewhat.

And Death company BA is such a silly build. What was it? 25-30 death companies running after a couple of gun drones? Absolute hilarity.

Artemo wrote:
Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never ... Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy

And that actually sums up game #3 as well. But more on that when Game #3 comes out.

Bodacious2182 wrote:I thought the warding staff could only be used for wounds caused by close combat and not perils as you did?

It's been FAQ'd in the GK FAQ's to include all wounds in combat and not just those caused by close combat attacks. Link found here.

Lukus83 wrote:
And regarding the game vs Tau...Well played by jy2. By focussing on the suits you were able to stop him from eliminating your scoring units so effectively. A tough game considering the amount oif firepower he had on the table, but by thinking well ahead to the objectives you scraped the win.

That said it does look like the game was very one sided. With slightly different dice rolls that could have been a very unpleasant match.

Regardless, great game and good luck to both of you at the next round.

Thanks.

Foot-lists are one of the matchups that give my purifiers the most problems, especially if they have enough AT to take out my transports. They just neuter my dreads, especially when Gus gives each of his crisis/broadside team 2 ablative wounds in the form of gun/shield drones to stop me from insta-killing his important units. Imagine broadsides with 2 ablative 2+ drones. Ughh.

Basically, his army is the paper to my hammer knights. I knew it would be an uphill battle for me. Luckily, I didn't need to kill him in order to win the game.

I'm actually quite surprised the Tau game ended up so close, but objective games can be funny that way.

I'm rather unconvinced by the idea of an 'interceptor force', Though I think interceptors are useful units, the fact they're not scoring means they're a rather pricey 30 models. But if anyone can make 'em work I'm sure it's jv2

Artemo wrote:I'm rather unconvinced by the idea of an 'interceptor force', Though I think interceptors are useful units, the fact they're not scoring means they're a rather pricey 30 models. But if anyone can make 'em work I'm sure it's jv2

That's why there's a Grand Master in his Interceptor list. "Grand Strategy" makes up for a lot of shortcomings.

Ard Boyz Game #3 vs Grey Knights - Stormravens


I was hoping to play against Janthkin's nids in the final match, but with only 1 major victory and 1 minor victory, I wasn't going to be playing in the top table against him. I believe there were 2-3 players who scored a little higher or about the same as me. Janthkin was ahead by a large margin, getting 2 massacres in a row and ended up playing against mech-BA with razors and 2 hammer units of assault terminators in land raiders.

Instead, I get paired with Bobby's stormraven grey knights. So far, I've played against Bobby twice, with each of us splitting 1 game apiece. Each of the games we played were close, with his stormraven knights coming back from behind to beat my nids in our last game. Now I don't think I will have too hard of a time against his army. What's 3 stormravens when I can consistently dismantle mech armies with 10-12 vehicles, right? However, if I don't disable his ravens early, I'm going to be in for the fight of my purifier lives with Draigo, paladins, 2 big squad of purifiers, 2 dreadknights and his purgation unit. He will definitely overpower me if he can get into assault with me.

But what may worry me the most are his 12 mindstrike missiles. Believe me, I don't want any part of them. If they hit, then my warding staves and hammers are gone first without any kind of saves. Then my other guys. I can't afford to lose my warding staves against the likes of Bobby's army. They just have too many power weapons.

Without further ado....


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2500 Grey Knights - Purifier-Dreads (My list)

Crowe

Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Vendread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Vindicare

5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Hammer, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights
5x Purifiers - 2x Psycannons, 2x Halberds, 1x Warding Stave, Rhino w/Dozers + Searchlights

5x Interceptors - 1x Psycannon, 2x Sword, 1x MC-Hammer, 1x Warding Stave

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


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2500 Grey Knights - Stormravens

Draigo
Inquisitor - Daemonhammer, Terminator Armor, Psycannon, Psychic Communion, 3x Servo-skulls

10x Purifiers - 5x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, 4x Psycannons
10x Purifiers - 5x Halberds, 1x MC-Hammer, 4x Psycannons

5x Paladins - Brotherhood Banner, 1x Daemonhammer, 3x Halberds, 2x Psycannons
1x Paladin - MC-Hammer
1x Paladin - MC-Hammer

Stormraven
Stormraven - Teleport Homer
Stormraven - Teleport Homer, Searchlights

Dreadknight
Dreadknight
6x Purgations - Daemonhammer, MC-Hammer, 4x Incinertors, Teleport Homer


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Scenario #3 - Head of Da Snake!

Mission: Victory Points

Each player nominates 1 HQ. He is worth 2x VP's.

My HQ: Crowe

Bobby's HQ: Draigo

Massacre = 1126+ VP's. Major victory = 751-1125VP's. Minor victory = 376-750 VP's.

Deployment: Dawn of War.

Initiative: Paladin Grey Knights (Bobby)

Special Rules: No Infiltrating.


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Deployment:

Map of the terrain (and also Bobby's deployment):

He deploys nothing. Ravens will be coming in 1st turn. Dreadknights, paladins and soladins (solo paladins) will be deepstriking.

I deploy Crowe only and hide him in the ruins and out of LOS.

I don't bother to seize.


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Paladin Grey Knights 1

All 3 ravens move flat-out 24".


Purifier Grey Knights 1

I go ultra-aggressive, disembarking all my guys after moving my rhinos 12". Crowe hops onto 1 rhino. 2 rhinos pop smoke. I need to make sure I kill his ravens.


My shooting blows up 2 ravens and wreck 1. Draigo takes a wound in the explosion.

Not a bad start for me.


Paladin Grey Knights 2

Paladins, both dreadknights and 1 soladin come in off his purgation's teleport homer. Both Draigo and his inquisitor had cast Psychic Communion for the +2 to reserves.


His army then advances.


Shooting kills a total of 4 purifiers as well as blow up 1 rhino.


Dreadknights then run.

Uh oh. I didn't realize how close he got so quickly. Now that is what I call Maximum Threat Overload. Quickly swamp your opponent with more threats than they can handle all at once. Truly intimidating.


Purifier Grey Knights 2

Purifiers go after dreadknights.


The rest of my purifiers move forwards and line up for shots against his purifiers with Draigo.


I tank shock his unit of 5 pallies.


They then fail morale and fall back. Why can't the Tau be more like this? I also insta-gib 2 pallies with my psyfleman dreads.


Combined stormbolter-fire and psycannons kill off all 4 of his psycannons.

Vindicare fires at a dreadknight with his 2W turbo-penetrator round but he makes his 5++ invuln.


I assault his 2 dreadknights. Oops! I forget to charge in my interceptors as well. I opted to cast Hammerhand instead of using my force weapons. I believe the right squad fails though. I take off 2W from both dreadknights. In return, he wipes out all 4 of my hammer purifiers on the left and 3 out of 4 purifiers on the right! 1 more purifier on the left then dies to No Retreat. Wow, not what I was expecting at all!


Crowe and 1 unit of purifiers charge Draigo's unit. We both cast Hammerhand.


We both whiff in combat. Both Crowe and Draigo fail to wound each other. I only kill 1 of his purifiers despite striking 1st thanks to psyk-out grenades, and he fails to kill any of mine.


Paladin Grey Knights 3

Overview of the beginning of Turn 3 (Bobby's turn).


Paladins regroup as there are no units within 6" of them. The rest of his knights move. Looking back at the photo, I guess Crowe did cause 1W to Draigo last turn.

He doesn't have much shooting so it's off to assault we go.


Purifiers with Inquisitor assault the rhino. He fails to cast Hammerhand. Paladins assault the purifier-purifier combat.


His purifiers fail to hit the rhino, but the Inquisitor hits it twice and wrecks it. His paladins then wipe out my purifiers and Crowe causes another 1W to Draigo (only 1W left). Crowe then takes 1W to No Retreat. Because his paladins cannot pile into the assault with Crowe, they just break off.

In the combat with the dreadknights, I fail to wound either dreads. One dreadknight whiffs and fails to hit my lone halberd purifier. The other kills a halberd purifier but cannot get through the 2++ warding stave of my Keeper (purifier sergeant).

So far, combat is just as I expected...fail for me. Though Crowe surviving is kind of a surprise.


Purifier Grey Knights 3

Interceptors jump 12".


Dreads do the locomotion. Choo choo!!!


The rest of my purifiers advance. I want so badly to kill his paladins....


....but my purifiers opt to blow away his purgation instead. Only 2 incinerators survive my shooting.

Also, the vindicare, not have too many targets in his sights, shoots down 1 purifier, and his Inquisitor takes 1W to my interceptors.


Interceptors charge his purifiers (I make sure to get the hammer into base with his Inquisitor) and my purifiers multi-charge his purgation and paladins. Everyone casts (or try to cast) Hammerhand.


This is my attack rolls for my interceptors.


At least the hammer crushes his Inquisitor's skull. In turn, he kills 2 of my interceptors. Also, 1 dreadknight kills my lone halberd purifier, but the other is still being held up by my warding stave keeper.


In other combat, my purifiers kill both of his purgation guys but fail to harm his paladins. His paladins then kill 2 of my purifiers for a wash.

Draigo once again fails to kill Crowe. His purifiers, however, finishes the job for him. However, before Crowe dies, he casts Heroic Sacrifice and takes Draigo with him. Bobby is dumbfounded by what had just happened. Just when he thought he was coming back, I just metaphorically punched him in the gut and knocked the wind out of him, taking 550 VP's along the way.


Paladin Grey Knights 4

Overview of the beginning of Turn 4.


His last soladin comes in. His purifiers setup for a massive multi-assault and his dreadknight prepares to assault my dread. Uh, oh. Despite losing Draigo, he is still in a position to do a lot of damage.


His soladin joins into the interceptor-purifier melee.


Only my warding stave justicar survives. Luckily, I pass morale.


His dreadknight assaults my regular dread and blows him up.


His paladins wipe out my purifiers. I fail to do any wounds back.


Lastly, his purifiers then charge my vindicare, lone warding stave (in combat with his dreadknight) and 2 dreads. He casts Hammerhand. I, on the other hand, cast Cleansing Flame with my purifier. It turns out to be a good move as he fails 2 saves against it.


He then fails to kill any of my guys. My vindicare, dread and purifier each kill 1 of his purifiers and wipe out the squad.

Wow...that was amazing. My assaults have been full of fail up until this point. And to top it off, his dreadknight fails morale (with, of course, -5 on his LD) and falls back, and I consolidate my dread to within 6" of him.


Purifier Grey Knights 4

My movement phase. The vendread immobilises himself while climbing atop the wreck. Warding stave purifier go after his dreadknight.


In shooting, my dreads insta-gib both of his paladins (not the soladins). The vindicare, having no one else to shoot, puts another wound on his dreadknight falling back. I miss those days when the vindicare could shoot into combat. Sigh.


Purifier assaults his dreadknight, and they remain locked.


Finally, his purifiers and soladin finish off my last interceptor.


Paladin Grey Knights 5

Bobby's movement. Purifiers head towards his dreadknight to provide some help. Soladins go towards my dreads.


One paladin attempts to cast Holocaust on my last purifier squad and succeeds on a 4! (He was testing on LD5 due to Improved Aegis from my dreads nearby). The blast kills 1 of my purifiers.


His purifiers rush my lone purifier....


....and wipe him out. His soladin assaults and fails to harm my dread.


Purifier Grey Knights 5

I decide to tankshock his dreadknight and purifiers just for kicks. His dreadknight fails morale and breaks! Wow. Why can't kroots be more like this?


Other rhino moves 12" to make sure his dreadknight keeps falling back. I then assault my 4-purifier unit with warding stave into his soladin....and he wipes them out after No Retreat saves! WTH?!?


We roll to see if the game continues and it does not.

He's only got 2 single paladins (1 at half strength) and a unit of 3-purifiers (half VP's) left. His dreadknights, because they are both fleeing counts as destroyed.

All my infantry are dead except for the vindicare. I've got my vindicare, 4 dreads left including 2 venerables (though 1 is immobilised so he will get half VP's for him) and 4 rhinos.

He also got 300 VP's for killing Crowe, and I got 550 VP's for killing Draigo. Overall, I win with 777 VP's. I also get +1 bonus point for killing all of my opponent's Fast Attack choices for a total of 18 points.


Majory Victory to My Grey Knights!!!



Janthkin only managed a draw with his tyranids in the last game against a mech-BA list, but because of his 2 previous massacres, that was good enough to keep him in 1st. Gus, my 2nd round Tau opponent massacred his last opponent, another Grey Knight player, to jump up to 3rd place with 2 massacres (I think) and a minor loss (to me). Finally, with 2 major wins and 1 minor win, that was good enough to propel me to 2nd place and onto the Semi-finals next turn.



From left to right - Gus (Gus Indo), Jim (jy2) and Kevin (Janthkin). Wow....I look so short.


With my winnings (and a little extra cash on top of that), I proceeded to get my next GK project:



See you guys in the Semi's...

Not meaning to sound picky but I hope you remembered Draigo wounds Crowe on a 2+ thanks to him being a Psyker.

Sounding good so far though. How did Bobby's GK's do overall? It looks like a scary list the potential to just throw down a ton of rock hard units really fast and trample anything they hit.

Lukus83 wrote:Not meaning to sound picky but I hope you remembered Draigo wounds Crowe on a 2+ thanks to him being a Psyker.

Since they both casted Hammerhand, Draigo has a strength of 6, thus wounding Crowe on a 2+ since he has a toughness of 4.
Don't get me wrong, you are absolutely right about the rule, it's just that it doesn't change anything in the end.

Can't wait to see how this report ends!

Thank you Jy2 for taking the time to put up all these detailed reports!

Draigo didn't need to roll for Hammerhand. He is S10 vs Psykers. But nevermind...1's happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh hold on...Draigo was attached to some guys. Yes he needed to cast Hammerhand. My bad.

Wow. That picture at the top of turn two is freakin' intimidating; I don't think I'll look at Stormraven lists in the same way again. That's a real psychological threat IMHO.
You seem to be doing as good a job as one could expect at dealing with it though and not letting yourself get downhearted. Nice to see the vindicare not doing much again...
Really looking forward to the rest of the reports, although half the pictures have me wondering whose Grey Knights are which!

Great photos!

It appears that your opponent had 4 psycannons per purifer squad in the photos & in the list, but I think he can only take 2 per squad.

Clash of the Titans. This is like non-positional chess play...

Ultra-chaotic with hardly predictable results. I really enjoyed seeing you go nuts with shooting to kill entire mobile airforce and retaliation... as you said... Overloard...

Looking forward to seeing the outcome.