I assume that would be a huge factor. DKOK seem much more generalist, which would make them a superior fighting force in a lot of situations, but the Catachans would be better at jungle and maybe urban combat.
As for which world is more dangerous, Catachan, since it's not environmental factors like Krieg.
I assume that would be a huge factor. DKOK seem much more generalist, which would make them a superior fighting force in a lot of situations, but the Catachans would be better at jungle and maybe urban combat.
As for which world is more dangerous, Catachan, since it's not environmental factors like Krieg.
PresidentOfAsia wrote:they specialize in trench warfare
Huh. Turns out your right.
In that case, it really is a tossup. Krieg has better conventional weaponry, Catachans have better close-combat abilities. Really, they're both made for very different situations. I would want a Death Korps regiment at Hydra Cordatus, or a Catachan regiment for an insertion.
My vote would be DKOK, nothing quite says "dont mess with me" like coming from a dead world and specialising in trench warfare, id imagine trench warfare in the 40k 'verse being pretty damn brutal.
Everything about Krieg is just so...badass and grimdark, whereas the Catachans are more 80's/early90's action heroes types based off Stallone, Schwarzenegger, and stuff like Ventura's character in Predator.
Also, to put it in perspective, the Catachan's have authority issues and sometimes frag commissars, the DKoK has commissars to ensure they play nice with other regiments and hold them back from willfully sacrificing themselves for trivial gains.
That said, both are somewhat specialist troops. One wouldn't expect DKoK troops to defeat Catachan's in the jungle or Catachan's to defeat Krieg troopers in a pitched battle.
Molten Butter wrote:
PresidentOfAsia wrote:they specialize in trench warfare
Huh. Turns out your right.
In that case, it really is a tossup. Krieg has better conventional weaponry, Catachans have better close-combat abilities. Really, they're both made for very different situations. I would want a Death Korps regiment at Hydra Cordatus, or a Catachan regiment for an insertion.
Actually Krieg also have a heavy emphasis on close combat, one of the armies rules is that all guardsmen have WS4 and never take negative modifiers to leadership in close combat.
This all comes down to an issue of terrain and deployment. If the Kriegs are patrolling through a dense jungle, valley, or swamp, Catachans will slaughter them. If the Catachans are trying to overrun a trench on an open barren plain, Kriegs will slaughter them.
The more I think about it. Why do the DKoK use trench warfare? I suppose it makes sense, in the IoMde-evolution of ideas kinda way. Planet destroyed by long range nuclear bombardment, so take up form of fighting worst at dealing with it.
They use trench warfare because static defenses and years-long (sometimes centuries-long) conflicts/sieges are commonplace in the 41st Millennia as GW is silly. The concept of the classical siege has pretty much been rendered useless for a good few decades now IRL, nevermind in the far future. The Tau and Eldar concepts of mobile warfare is much more realistic to futuristic styles of fighting.
One on one, I think the Jungle fighters have an edge. Especially in close quarters like a jungle etc... Unit sized combat with assets The DKOK wins hands down.
DKOK specialize in trench warfare. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what an artillery bombardment can do to the enviroment. If the Catachans are hiding in the woods, level the woods... now they can hide in craters.
The problem would be if the enviroment was totally inappropriate for massing formations which is the DKOK's strong suit.
Catachans hands down imo.Nearly every living thing on their world tries to kill you and these guys not only survive but thrive on their experiences.Every one seems to assume Catachans will get destroyed by Krieg but i'm pretty sure Catachans can drive tanks and use artillary just as well as Krieg guardsmen.This is only my opinion of course and i'm ready for a hammering.
The argument I most see is, DKoK win cause they have all these tanks and arty, and just blow everything up. That is exactly why Catachan win. DKoK get in wonderful little lines for any sort of air power to strafe right along the lines and kill them. Or fire arty. Its alot easier to pound an enemy line when you can see and enemy line.
Sure DKoK wins when their are 6 catachans in a bush vs every DKoK, ever.
shingouki wrote:Catachans hands down imo.Nearly every living thing on their world tries to kill you and these guys not only survive but thrive on their experiences.Every one seems to assume Catachans will get destroyed by Krieg but i'm pretty sure Catachans can drive tanks and use artillary just as well as Krieg guardsmen.This is only my opinion of course and i'm ready for a hammering.
The DKoK live on a world where the very air is poison and going for an afternoon constitutional can see you blown up by any number of 500 year old mines and unexploded ordnance, and engage in military training from birth and live fire exercise and maneuvers from childhood and every training cadre is trying to outfight the other in live fire exercises.
EDIT: Also keep in mind that Krieg fields more than just meat grinder trench warfare units. They field everything but Drop Troops, it's just that their most known for siege regiments.
Vaktathi wrote: the Catachans are more 80's/early90's action heroes types based off Stallone, Schwarzenegger, and stuff like Ventura's character in Predator.
Vaktathi wrote: the Catachans are more 80's/early90's action heroes types based off Stallone, Schwarzenegger, and stuff like Ventura's character in Predator.
This is exactly why I voted for the Catachans.
And exactly why they win. Gimdark, we're so cool, our air is poison cause we made it that way, cause we suck at war, doesnt win in the end. Action heroes get to the chopper just in time, and do it with the folks in distress on their back.
Thank you CpatTom. Death Corps seems to have that tragic, European, 'war-is-hell' motif inspired by World War II. Catachans seem to have more of a gritty, American, 'war-is-hell' motif inspired by Vietnam.
CpatTom wrote:
And exactly why they win. Gimdark, we're so cool, our air is poison cause we made it that way, cause we suck at war
Because they were outnumbered multiple times over and had to resort to atomic weaponry against their own world to win and eventually won against overwhelming odds without support, then immediately turned around and told the Imperium they had a ton of troops available for transport to the worst warzones?
I'd highly suggest reading Dead Men Walking if you get the chance and reading the Siege of Vraks FW books.
IMHO, Death Korps are the more bad ass. However, I think that Catachan fighters take a more individualistic style of fighting, rather than the massed numbers of Kriegsman commomly seen in fluff. Also, I think a Catachan commander would greatly annoy a Krieg commander, because the Catachan (I would think) would use more guerilla tactics, whereas, the Kriegsman Commanders tend to send massed waves of infantry.
Its going to be hard to do those guerilla tactics when you level the playing field. Literally level it with arty. Be it a city, a jungle or anything, it will be blasted. The DKoK are willing to do anything to win.
They're all crushed by atomic depression before they ever have the chance to be cool. Grimdark artillery barrages smash the unlucky and unwary into flecks of flesh in the mud. Ran-DOM.
Deathworld vets: Have survived by not making mistakes around the predators/uninhabitable conditions/xenos hunting grounds. They're like Crocodile Dundee on 'roids.
DKoK heroes are the sole survivor of their company, having advanced through a friendly artillery barrage on the way to their designated stop-line that they never even got to see. They are usually named Franz, and shake a lot at loud noises.
the Catachans were based on some of the finest action stars ever to act in over the top films!
what's the death korp based off of (looks to be ww2 germans to me)
did Chuck Norris ever kill any Nazi's?
DKoK would probably win any protracted warfare, what they did to their world, they can do to any other. They would even win on a forest world just by felling all the greens and turning everything into a wasteland with their ordnance, I don't see Catachans doing well charging a DkoK line with nowhere to hide and being able to kill many. To be fair, any DKoK soldier would be pwned by a Catachan should he be unlucky enough to find himself in a forest.
I had to think of the US Forces and Middle-eastern insurgents here for a second, just in their ways of fighting wars. The DKoK being the US Forces, having experience at large-scale mass-invasions and the logistics to move huge formations and regiments around. The Catachans being the insurgents...not so happy about people from outside (commissars) telling them how to do things, rather invidivualistic, not made for a slugfest on open ground. They'd probably let the DKoK have the battlefield without risking too many losses...and when the Korps' general is getting on the vox to tell the Lord Commander the battlezone has been cleared, his vox operator gets blown up by a hidden plasma charge. The Catachans wouldn't be so stupid to battle openly against such a foe, but they would go all-out Guerilla fighter style with a metric feth-ton of IEDs, mines, traps, everything they can improvise - something I think they are better at than the DKoK. While the Korps would occupy and "control" most of the territory, they could never really feel safe.
Now, who's better? I think that question is, as many have stated, too hard to answer because of their different fighting styles and specializations.
Lord Poison wrote:the Catachans were based on some of the finest action stars ever to act in over the top films!
what's the death korp based off of (looks to be ww2 germans to me)
A mix of first world war french and german uniforms primarily, mostly french actually aside from the mask, helmet and suspenders.
Commissar Molotov wrote:There are no DKoK veterans...
They're all crushed by atomic depression before they ever have the chance to be cool. Grimdark artillery barrages smash the unlucky and unwary into flecks of flesh in the mud. Ran-DOM.
Deathworld vets: Have survived by not making mistakes around the predators/uninhabitable conditions/xenos hunting grounds. They're like Crocodile Dundee on 'roids.
DKoK heroes are the sole survivor of their company, having advanced through a friendly artillery barrage on the way to their designated stop-line that they never even got to see. They are usually named Franz, and shake a lot at loud noises.
The DKoK have no "Heroes" per se actually aside from Colonel Jurten, and there are no Krieg Characters, heroism as such is "commonplace and expected" (hence why they don't award medals, anything other regiments would get a medal for they expect as common behavior). Though they do have Veterans, but they're more akin to Stormtroopers than normal Veterans.
I voted Krieg because if you set up them both on a planet, even a jungle one, they would level it all out. Seems to me the Catachans would have no where to hide once this happens, and they would die in the open.
Sorry for the necropost but I needed to get this out:
You guys seem to assume that Catachans only hide in the jungles and use hit and run techniques. You have to remember that Catachans do use Valkyries, Vultures and aircraft in general which they can use to strafe the DKOK trenches. Also completely leveling a Jungle planet isn't as easy as it sounds. Read the book Death World for more info.
Though Krieg is famous for its death korps and willingness to die, that doesn't mean your a better o dangerous soldier. Just means your willing to die.
Catachan however and the environment they live in moulds them into perfect soldiers almost, shoot, fight, and loyal. And high gravity catachan breeds better and stronger soldiers.
DKoK would grind the Catachans to dust, would take a while, but they would do it.
DKoK embody the Imperial Sledgehammer idea of the Imperial Guard, hit it with enough men, tanks, and ships and it WILL break.
The most dangerous world is Krieg, step outside one of the bunker cities and take a deep breath, you will die in seconds from severe pollution/radiation poisoning. If you even have a full body protection suit the surface is COVERED in unexploaded ordnance and nuclear wastes.
Alexzandvar wrote:DKoK would grind the Catachans to dust, would take a while, but they would do it.
DKoK embody the Imperial Sledgehammer idea of the Imperial Guard, hit it with enough men, tanks, and ships and it WILL break.
The most dangerous world is Krieg, step outside one of the bunker cities and take a deep breath, you will die in seconds from severe pollution/radiation poisoning. If you even have a full body protection suit the surface is COVERED in unexploaded ordnance and nuclear wastes.
Catachan is the most dangerous world; sure the air may not be as poisonous but every plant and every creature wants you dead; in addition Krieg does not have the barking toad which can emit a poison that that makes a mockery of power armor and kills everything within 1 km. And its not like the Imperium doesn't have mine clearing vehicles. There is a reason why Catachan is said to be the most infamous of the Death worlds. If you've read the book Death World, it shows that clearing a jungle is much harder then it seems, especially one like Catachan because every time the foliage is cut, the Jungl redoubles its effort to regrow. Also the Catachans do have access to Tanks, aircraft etc.
Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Krieg all the way.
They are space Wehrmacht after all.
Catachans are Space USMC(The actual marines); Death Korp of Krieg is Space WW1 German/French soldiers from WW1. And of course the USMC> Wehrmacht.
Unlike the US and its wars involving insurgency, the DKOK can basically nuke any world it likes - if for some reason it came to a civil war anything but a 1v1 Catachan vs DKOK, the catachan's would lose outright simply because the DKOK would melt their faces with nukes, then carpet bomb everything in sight, gas the crap out of them, and then finally just walk over whatever was left.
The Unforgiven Saint wrote: Its going to be hard to do those guerilla tactics when you level the playing field. Literally level it with arty. Be it a city, a jungle or anything, it will be blasted. The DKoK are willing to do anything to win.
Say the DkoK have some Trench lines facing east Behind the lines are the artillery and reserves. I would use Catachans in this way: would definitely infiltrate behind the artillery, dismantle everything in the back-lines while any armor units tie up the front. Demo-charges and tight, confined trenches is a plus for Catachans.
Also, looking cool certainly doesn't help. The Eldar look like spandex-wearing fairy elves and still kick some butt.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ENOZONE wrote: Unlike the US and its wars involving insurgency, the DKOK can basically nuke any world it likes - if for some reason it came to a civil war anything but a 1v1 Catachan vs DKOK, the catachan's would lose outright simply because the DKOK would melt their faces with nukes, then carpet bomb everything in sight, gas the crap out of them, and then finally just walk over whatever was left.
This isn't even a fair question.
Unless they forced the DkoK to get on the ground first. Also, spraying gas everywhere won't help too much if there are bystanders. The reason anyone gets on the ground in the first place is to secure things or because a space barrage onto a planet might not be accurate enough to do the job.
ENOZONE wrote: Unlike the US and its wars involving insurgency, the DKOK can basically nuke any world it likes - if for some reason it came to a civil war anything but a 1v1 Catachan vs DKOK, the catachan's would lose outright simply because the DKOK would melt their faces with nukes, then carpet bomb everything in sight, gas the crap out of them, and then finally just walk over whatever was left.
This isn't even a fair question.
Unless they forced the DkoK to get on the ground first. Also, spraying gas everywhere won't help too much if there are bystanders. The reason anyone gets on the ground in the first place is to secure things or because a space barrage onto a planet might not be accurate enough to do the job.
Assuming there are bystanders - Bystanders infers innocence, and innocence in 40k proves nothing. Gas them, and nuke them both after the DKoK drop in. It's the main difference between the Catachans vs the DKoK, the later wouldn't think twice about collateral damage or friendly fire, the Catachan's wouldn't dare even dream it.
ENOZONE wrote: Unlike the US and its wars involving insurgency, the DKOK can basically nuke any world it likes - if for some reason it came to a civil war anything but a 1v1 Catachan vs DKOK, the catachan's would lose outright simply because the DKOK would melt their faces with nukes, then carpet bomb everything in sight, gas the crap out of them, and then finally just walk over whatever was left.
You're assuming that the greatest human siege specialists in the IoM wouldn't have more Hydra and other Skyfire emplacements than you could shake your Iron Hand at? Engaging the DKoK head on with an ambush centered army is inviting defeat, and the Catachan's would be ground to a pulp within hours if they tried.
You're assuming that the greatest human siege specialists in the IoM wouldn't have more Hydra and other Skyfire emplacements than you could shake your Iron Hand at? Engaging the DKoK head on with an ambush centered army is inviting defeat, and the Catachan's would be ground to a pulp within hours if they tried.
Depending on where they're set up and how much they set up; and remember, Catachans do have basilisks, Leman Russes etc for ground support
And the greatest siege specialist are the Imperial Fists
Also you're making it sound like there's like 30,000,000 kriegsmen vs 100 Catachans on a planet without jungle
ENOZONE wrote: Unlike the US and its wars involving insurgency, the DKOK can basically nuke any world it likes - if for some reason it came to a civil war anything but a 1v1 Catachan vs DKOK, the catachan's would lose outright simply because the DKOK would melt their faces with nukes, then carpet bomb everything in sight, gas the crap out of them, and then finally just walk over whatever was left.
This isn't even a fair question.
Unless they forced the DkoK to get on the ground first. Also, spraying gas everywhere won't help too much if there are bystanders. The reason anyone gets on the ground in the first place is to secure things or because a space barrage onto a planet might not be accurate enough to do the job.
Assuming there are bystanders - Bystanders infers innocence, and innocence in 40k proves nothing. Gas them, and nuke them both after the DKoK drop in. It's the main difference between the Catachans vs the DKoK, the later wouldn't think twice about collateral damage or friendly fire, the Catachan's wouldn't dare even dream it.
Well, of all the soldiers, catachans are uniquely equiped to fight trench war on somewhat even terms, high quantaties of flamers and mortars, they get into the trenches and things are more even.
Let's say its a jungle planet, kried do have a trench system set up.
The catachans won't play to the Kriegs tune, its that simple. What ever way you cut it, catachan won't fight kriegs way. Snipers, moving mortars, fluid movable lines of battle are a complete anatheme to Kriegs way of war.
Krieg if they want to win this battle and eliminate the Catachans, will have to leave the trenches, because a battle between these 2 won't be fought this way, except if you put Catachan in an open plain in an established trench network and force them to hold it.
But then you might as well reverse that situation and put Krieg in a Deathworld jungle and force them to look for the catachans.
Catachans have more initiative, strong as an ox, vicious, they are better soldiers because there battle plans are not based around the 'if we make trenches here, it will only cost us 250'000 deaths to complete our objectives.
Catachans are Space USMC(The actual marines); Death Korp of Krieg is Space WW1 German/French soldiers from WW1. And of course the USMC> Wehrmacht.
You mad?
Krieg are the most badass IG Regiment in the galaxy, second only to Cadians themselves.
They are emotionless, loyal to the Emperor to the point where Black Templar loyalty seems small, they can withstand to lose millions and still fight on and they nuked their own homeworld to prove their loyalty.
+ they are based on WW1 western front solders but mostly going toward Wehrmacht witch makes them more than awesome.
purplefood wrote: I think the Catachan could probably mess anyone up with whatever comes to hand...
In fact didn't Straken strangle a chaos lord with a vine?
purplefood wrote: I think the Catachan could probably mess anyone up with whatever comes to hand...
In fact didn't Straken strangle a chaos lord with a vine?
Keep in mind Krieg troops have WS4
As did the catachans in the old catachan codex
Kriegs 1 redeeming feature of a soldier is their willingness to die.
If they have to suffer 10'000 casualties to do it then that's what they do.
Catachan on the other hand are dedicated, but not so zealous as krieg, catachans don't intend on loosing in the first place.
Of course each regiment have their own skills and capabilities, but by and lare Catachans are bigger, stronger, free thinking witha tendency for greater initiative than Krieg. They are superior in every way as a soldier.
After all some of Kriegs men die for little more than having the enemy expend a round of ammunition.
You can do that with an army of Whiteshields and sending them 'over the top' instead.
purplefood wrote: I think the Catachan could probably mess anyone up with whatever comes to hand...
In fact didn't Straken strangle a chaos lord with a vine?
Keep in mind Krieg troops have WS4
As did the catachans in the old catachan codex
Kriegs 1 redeeming feature of a soldier is their willingness to die.
If they have to suffer 10'000 casualties to do it then that's what they do.
and that's exactly how the Imperial Guard functions at it's fundamental level...
Catachan on the other hand are dedicated, but not so zealous as krieg, catachans don't intend on loosing in the first place.
Of course each regiment have their own skills and capabilities, but by and lare Catachans are bigger, stronger
They've got big arms, it doesn't mean they hit all that much harder or are hardier. I'd also much rather have a decent helmet and a chemically protected uniform and some armor than a t-shirt
And the DKoK don't intend on losing, they just don't care about living, there's a difference. As long as their capacity to fight and die exceeds that of their enemy, then, to the Krieg mind, the battle is already won and it's just a matter of playing it out until the pre-determined conclusion is reached.
free thinking witha tendency for greater initiative than Krieg.
Which isn't necessarily actionable given typical Imperial guard commanders, nor are they necessarily good qualities in grunts. It's not like Krieg troops don't lack initiative either, just not when it comes to executing battle plans. In Dead Men Walking there's an excellent example of Krieg troops taking initiative, as when fighting Necrons they realize that their meltaguns are their primary killing weapons and that as Necrons approach a position, the other guys just get up and charge, realizing it means their deaths, at the Necrons with bayonets to give the Meltaguns time to recharge without being told to, and are subsequently killed by the melta-fire when the guns finish recharging.
After all some of Kriegs men die for little more than having the enemy expend a round of ammunition.
You can do that with an army of Whiteshields and sending them 'over the top' instead.
If you want troops likely to break that can't hit for squat and can't fight for piss.
Any situation where life is expendable and losses are expected krieg is indeed the best planet for the job.
The catachans have big arms yes, so do guys who bench press large weights and heavy weight boxers. But the next step up in game turns is s4 which equals a marine, which is silly and not appropriate for an un modified human. By and large a larger gravity of catachan has been equated to enhanced musculo skeletal system, big muscles usually means improved strength. (I'm not sure but I think catachans did have s4 in their old codex, but my memory fails me so don't quote me on it)
But the question is 'Who are the best fighters' not 'who are most bad ass' man to man catachan are on the whole physically superior, more independent of traditional supply lines for extended periods of time and still combat effective. The same cannot be said of Krieg, and presumably given their typical expenditure of men and material, will be on borrowed time should they ever be stripped of their supply lines.
1 company of 300 catachans v 1 company of 300 death korps would tear them a new one each and every time. Unless plonked into trench war.
And yes sometimes the korps do advance knowing their efforts will fail, that they will need to expend several times that number in men and equipment in waves before success.
Kriegs advantage lays in willing to pay any cost to meet heir objectives, that is not the same as who are the best fighters.
To ignore the strength, toughness and sheer willpower of the Korpsmen is a bit of folly. Their training regime is so harsh that the final stages, which take place in their isotope soaked wasteland of a world, are to weed out the weakest of the strong from the strongest of the strong - the weak will already have died during earlier stages of training.
They're also considered to be amongst the best bayonet fighters in the Guard (if not the best) and are essentially unbreakable - Catachans still give a damn about their skins. Plus, from a psychological level, the soldiers of the Death Korp are hidden utterly and entirely beneath their uniforms, armour & equipment, without a scrap of flesh showing - they are, essentially, faceless, without individual identity, and that can be extremely unnerving, especially when they keep advancing despite heavy casualties without any sign of stopping.
Difference is that one is a humourous imitation of 70s-80s action heroes mixed with US Vietnam era troops and the other is a dark, horrifically grim realisation of WW1 troops in 40k. One on one I would possibly go for the Catachan fellow depending upon circumstances, but 300 vs 300 I'm going with the Death Korp each and every time.
Gee really. The weak die out in training? That sounds significantly less threatening than catachan itself weeds out the weak. You don't survive on catachan without being a soldier from the age of a child. The skills they learn there are the same skills that makes them such good soldiers.
And I'd take the Catachans ft long knife to a krieg bayonet.
300 kriegs men would be fighting a war they couldn't see, a battle they are unused to, hit and run, no static forces to shell or trenches to storm. They would blunder and thrash out, lurching from 1 ambush to another. Snipers would pick out officers, heavy and special weapon specialists, they would be bled dry.
I'm not debating to they have willpower to finish a fight to the bitter end. But that doesn't make them better fighters, it doesn't make them more capable in ambush, or camoflarge and concealment, or other traits demanded of soldiers.
In a siege absolutely krieg is the way to go, even extend that to open terrain.
But skill and talent, and generally physical superiority goes to the catachans
Krieg have that place, and that place is to die, to take a location no matter where or at what cost over any time period. But as for been superior fighters. Not a chance.
There you're putting it down as being fought purely in home territory for Catachans - bit of bias there. Also why can't the Death Korp make use of concealment, have their own marksmen picking off Catachans, have their own units ambushing the Catachan squads - just because you're good at something doesn't make you unbeatable and if it were a contest in an enclosed jungle enviroment who is to say that, buoyed up on being on their home turf, the Catachan's heavily under-estimate the Death Korpsmen and get butchered by them? You're trying to fit the idea of the fight around your biased opinions. What if they're fighting in open ground? It's impossible to fairly put the Catachans on the Death Korps home territory because after a few seconds the Catachans would have died from the isotopes soaking through their skins/uniforms & shutting down their nervous systems. They'd be forced to fight in environment suits, something they're not used to so that'd be a huge disadvantage to them as they blunder around getting hammered by the Death Korps volleys.
My point about the toughness/strength of the Death Korp is that it should not be underestimated. To harp on about the 'strength' and 'toughness' of the Catachans without acknowledging just how hard the Korpsmen need to be to survive their basic training, not even advanced training, is just a little harsh.
And frankly I'll stick with the Krieg's Lucius 98 Lasgun with its long bayonet - after all it has a lot of reach and it's still pointing a gun at someone. So you can still shoot them whereas with a knife, well, you have a bit of a disadvantage there.
Death Korps in my opinion do to the fact they will pay the price and the mole launcher i mean a engineer with thee mole launcher Catchans think their hidden with in striking distance this engineer has been patrolling with the mole for the last three hours seismic sensors pick up something similar to footsteps catchan snipers trying to sneak in position pops up in between their sergeants feet boom their goes the squad
As the original question was about who are the most skilled fighters, I would say the Catachans, as they individually are much more resourceful, inventive and skilled in stealth/recon operations than the Death Korps are. DK are on the other hand much more straight forward and conventional, but also more disciplined and has a larger focus on teamwork. Really they are two radically different fighting forces and would rarely be deployed in the same roles.
THere's nothing to say the Death Korp can not employ stealth tactics, and someone needs to perform reconnaissance for the massive Krieg artillery regiments - just because a unit utilizes a particular way of fighting big battles doesn't mean it is utterly incapable of performing any other means of fighting.
The Death Korp are also very resourceful in their own way - would a Catachan fellow be capable of surviving on a radiated, isotope soaked wasteland? Cirumstances & context are very, very important.
To be honest both are exceptional fighters in their own way and excellent soldiers in their own way.
Omegus wrote: No need to get so fanboy butt-hurt over it, everyone is entitled to their opinion. The fluff (and rules) happen to disagree with yours.
Anyway, going back to the original question, the Catachans are probably superior fighters, while the Korpsmen are superior soldiers.
What my Chaos and ork fanboism. Don't have a guard army, never will, but I'm sat in hospital bored and time to defend my case. So why not.
And what rules are they? Rules are fluid and change, I can cite the old catachan codex, which isn't worth spit, but it doesn't become any less valid in fluff does it?
I'd agree Krieg are certainly more disciplined than catachan. But then most soldiers would probably agree that ordering men into gun fire that slaughters them doesn't make them good soldiers, the term lions led by Donkeys was the term used to describe british troops of ww1 and the generals over them.
Courage and disciplined the death korps surely are. But that doesn't make them good fighters, and soldiering is more than just a bayonet charge over a trench.
They have their place, but does that make them good soldiers? Or fighters, disciplined, callous, determind and some cases ruthless. But soldiers have skills that are either no better in the korps or even a liability in some conflicts.
Korpsmen are not just dropped out of a cloning vat and thrown on the front lines of the Imperium's wars. Their training is extremely grueling, and casualty rates are extremely high even there. Even the most basic Korpsman fighting the Emperor's war is equivalent to a veteran of many conflicts from almost any other Guard Regiment.
This is really a context battle. If the Catachans were trying to storm a fortified line or trench manned by the Death Korps, they'd get stomped. If the Death Korps had to capture a thick jungle or death world from entrenched Catachan guerrilla cells, they'd get stomped.
I disagree, at least, if the DKoK are allowed to engage in battle the way they usually do. They would just level sections of forest at a time, advancing in an inexorable horde of bayonets.
Now, if the DKoK had to go into the jungle to recover something without the benefit of combined arms tactics, then yes, the Catachans would pick them apart Predator-style.
Adding on to what has already been stated, the Catachan are among the best regiments when it comes to stealth, I guess that only the Tanith first are better. In the old Catachan codex, there is a fluff excerpt that describes Catachan being nearly invisible to even other guard regiments who were dumbfounded in the jungle terrain.
Also, Catachan are good at planting explosives, up close and personal, whereas the Kreig utilize artillery over the duration of a siege to accomplish the same ends.
The Death Korps also has its own ''stormtroopers'' which the Catachans don't have, they'll have to really on external stormtroopers to do what the Grenadiers can do.
As for explosives: The engineers can have a demolition charge and so do the Grenadiers, they have a lot of demolition expert as well.
Omegus wrote: I have no idea what you're trying to say anymore.
Korpsmen are not just dropped out of a cloning vat and thrown on the front lines of the Imperium's wars. Their training is extremely grueling, and casualty rates are extremely high even there. Even the most basic Korpsman fighting the Emperor's war is equivalent to a veteran of many conflicts from almost any other Guard Regiment.
Which is exactly the same as 'living' on catachan. They are born to it. Not trained.
Eetion wrote: Well, of all the soldiers, catachans are uniquely equiped to fight trench war on somewhat even terms, high quantaties of flamers and mortars, they get into the trenches and things are more even.
Let's say its a jungle planet, kried do have a trench system set up.
The catachans won't play to the Kriegs tune, its that simple. What ever way you cut it, catachan won't fight kriegs way. Snipers, moving mortars, fluid movable lines of battle are a complete anatheme to Kriegs way of war.
Krieg if they want to win this battle and eliminate the Catachans, will have to leave the trenches, because a battle between these 2 won't be fought this way, except if you put Catachan in an open plain in an established trench network and force them to hold it.
But then you might as well reverse that situation and put Krieg in a Deathworld jungle and force them to look for the catachans.
Catachans have more initiative, strong as an ox, vicious, they are better soldiers because there battle plans are not based around the 'if we make trenches here, it will only cost us 250'000 deaths to complete our objectives.
1. Catachans aren't equipped to fight in trench warfare, they're equipped to fight in jungles and use ambush tactics. Burn the forest down and the Catachans are left in the rain of heavy artillery.
2. The absolute worst thing you can do against a trenchline is move anywhere near it, as you'll be in range of their own artillery or gunlines. Unless you have heavy armor and break the line with heavy armor and a prolonged siege, you can't outmaneuver entrenched soldiers, they'll just sit their and hold the line.
3. So what if the DKOK follow the standard model of the WWI German army, where their trenchlines were the new German border? All Krieg needs to do is have a trench, fight the Catachans, and then advance a few feet and dig another trench. Eventually, the Catachans would have no place to run, as they'd be encircled by literal miles of manned trenches. The bottom line is what's already been said; the Catachans can win a battle in the forest, but the DKOK will utterly destroy them, the forest, and this argument in any engagement larger than that.
Eetion wrote: Well, of all the soldiers, catachans are uniquely equiped to fight trench war on somewhat even terms, high quantaties of flamers and mortars, they get into the trenches and things are more even.
Let's say its a jungle planet, kried do have a trench system set up.
The catachans won't play to the Kriegs tune, its that simple. What ever way you cut it, catachan won't fight kriegs way. Snipers, moving mortars, fluid movable lines of battle are a complete anatheme to Kriegs way of war.
Krieg if they want to win this battle and eliminate the Catachans, will have to leave the trenches, because a battle between these 2 won't be fought this way, except if you put Catachan in an open plain in an established trench network and force them to hold it.
But then you might as well reverse that situation and put Krieg in a Deathworld jungle and force them to look for the catachans.
Catachans have more initiative, strong as an ox, vicious, they are better soldiers because there battle plans are not based around the 'if we make trenches here, it will only cost us 250'000 deaths to complete our objectives.
1. Catachans aren't equipped to fight in trench warfare, they're equipped to fight in jungles and use ambush tactics. Burn the forest down and the Catachans are left in the rain of heavy artillery.
2. The absolute worst thing you can do against a trenchline is move anywhere near it, as you'll be in range of their own artillery or gunlines. Unless you have heavy armor and break the line with heavy armor and a prolonged siege, you can't outmaneuver entrenched soldiers, they'll just sit their and hold the line.
3. So what if the DKOK follow the standard model of the WWI German army, where their trenchlines were the new German border? All Krieg needs to do is have a trench, fight the Catachans, and then advance a few feet and dig another trench. Eventually, the Catachans would have no place to run, as they'd be encircled by literal miles of manned trenches. The bottom line is what's already been said; the Catachans can win a battle in the forest, but the DKOK will utterly destroy them, the forest, and this argument in any engagement larger than that.
The Catachans don't necessarily rely on the jungle. They are all extremely fast, by the time the artillery is zeroed in, they are attacking your flanks. Not to mention that the Catachan 2nd is highly mechanized, utilizing a lot of chimera-chassis vehicles, their hellhounds could envelop infantry trenches in flame allowing for infantry/veterans/sentinels to take out the artillery with explosives/demolitions-ordinance
I rather think you need to do a bit of research into artillery and just how damned quickly guns can be ranged, trained and fired between the request for artillery support and the rounds banging off towards the target as well as how fast humans, weighed down by equipment & weapons, as well as trying to stay in as much cover as possible, can cover ground. Artillery guns can be trained effectively counter for enemy movement speed & direction, landing rounds on target despite the enemy's attempt to manoeuver. The British gunnery officers were pretty good at that sort of thing during WW2, working out the complex equations in mere moments to get the rounds hammering downrange as quickly as possible.
The problem with these vs things is that people keep going "Oh yeah, well what if they have THIS. No mention of what the other lot get as a counter, because if I do that then it'll even it out and I can't have that." Then people assume that because Side A does 'thing H' that means instant lose for Side B. For example your Catachans on the flanks - what if the Death Korp get up out of the trenches, advance a short way and pour fire onto the manoeuvering Catachans? So much for the flanking attack. What if they put a heavy bolter at a far end of the trench and open up with it suppressing the Catachans? What engagement ranges are we talking about anyway? 100 yards? 500 yards? 1,000 yards? I'd love to hear how men in equipment and carrying weapons can cover 1,000 yards before being hit by ranged & trained artillery.
And krieg have unlimited supplies of munitions to blow trees up? And if those lines of trenches are circumvented and supply lines are targeted?
Having catachans fight intrenches isn't ideal, but they are equiped somewhat usefully for the task. High quantaties of flamers and melta weaponry, mortars, and the like. They are better equipped than most regiments.
My point is that Krieg can shoot all the trees they want. But to shoot a tree expends a shell that they could have shot against a living target. Catachans will not fight a trench war against krieg left to their own devices.
Catachans may be able to win a battle in a forest, yet 'any engagement larger than that' dkok would win. Which way do trenches face? It is presumed that the catachans are lined up together waiting to be shelled. Some may have circled your your tenches and harrassing supply lines, some may be right flank some left flank, some may be prepping a booby traps for an advance. Trenches are all well and good IF you know where the enemy are. There is a reason it has become obsolete in modern warfare.
And after the korps has extended their lines a few times trenches become empty or lines become weaker.
Man to man catachans are cetainly not as disciplined, but stronger, tougher, on a planet almost designed to kill you. They are using stealth and ingenuity rather than waves of canon fodder and a list of acceptable casualties.
Catachans are physically superior soldiers and fighters. That's not to say the korps are hard ass tough as old boots, but a lot of that is mental conditioning and devaluing their own lives as opposed to skill at arms.
A soldier that fights their battles by attrition does not mean they are good fighters. Resolute and determind certainly. But not nesacerily good.
I agree Krieg has its place in the 40k universe, but they are far from its best fighters.
Are you kidding me? Not even a question...Catachan for both most dangerous fighter and most dangerous world.
Kreig? Krieg are numbered because they get slaughtered so often. They use siege warfare - relying heavily on gun emplacements/trenches/arty/etc.
Catachans infiltrate, use demo charges/flamers, they even settle personal disputes by knife fighting for Pete's sake! Just look at their physique for rough toughness comparison.
In the Guard codex, it describes the Swamp Rats covering themselves with nid gore to kill them. Enough said.
Individually, Catachans destroyyy Kriegs.
As for regiment vs regiment, there are so many variables - who is in charge of each, where are they fighting, etc. It would probably come up even (unless you were in the jungle or under siege)
As for the worlds, just throw on a hazmat suit and you are good to go on Kreig. Try the same thing on Catachan...everything will still kill you dead.
zgort wrote: Are you kidding me? Not even a question...Catachan for both most dangerous fighter and most dangerous world.
Let us see. Catachan, a jungle world filled with vicious predators where even the vegetation will kill you. Every day is a struggle for survival - very dangerous. Krieg, a world soaked in isotopes that makes Sarin look like water vapour, where showing even the smallest amount of flesh is instant death. Right. So let's recap. A world where you can't show any flesh, even by accident, because you will die, or a world where you might or might not be eaten today.
zgort wrote: Kreig? Krieg are numbered because they get slaughtered so often. They use siege warfare - relying heavily on gun emplacements/trenches/arty/etc.
I'm afraid it sounds like you know little about Krieg. Krieg had a major civil war after an attempt to leave the Imperium. For 500 years this war dragged on and turned Krieg into a hellhole, but at the end of it, when the Loyalists had won, they instantly offered a high number of trained, veteran units fanatically loyal and capable of operating on the most radiated/toxic worlds that the Guard could fight on. So impressed were the Munitorium & the High Lords of Terra that the Vitae womb technique was introduced upon Krieg, much to the irritation of the Adeptus Biologis, that allowed Krieg to pump out as many of its zealous, loyal, fearless and extremely competent soldiers so that Krieg raises tens of regiments every year many worlds would raise one regiment every ten years. Krieg is essentially a military training ground for the many tough, hardened regiments they send off to fight for the Imperium. What makes the Krieg so special is their willingness to die for the God-Emperor, eager to pay a blood debt they believe they owe to the Imperium and their officers, who are drawn from the rank & file, are keen to use their troops to wear down the enemy until that enemy is incapable of continuing the fight.
The only Krieg siege specialists are the siege regiments, not the infantry or armoured regiments.
zgort wrote: Catachans infiltrate, use demo charges/flamers, they even settle personal disputes by knife fighting for Pete's sake! Just look at their physique for rough toughness comparison.
In the Guard codex, it describes the Swamp Rats covering themselves with nid gore to kill them. Enough said.
How very pleasant for them. The Death Korp also make great use of flamers, their grenadiers love their heavy flamers, and they have far better equipment than demo charges - the MOLE launcher! It's unbelievably awesome.
I still doubt this, I reckon on the Korpsman with his bayonet against the Catachan & his knife. If you want proof of the bayonet being superior I shall point you at the SIkh's on two occasions; firstly Bob Napier's expedition to Abyssinia where, during the approach to Magdala, the Abyssinians charged the British flank where the supply train was. In between several thousand charging Abyssinians and the supply train were 50 Sikh sappers, who countered charged with their bayonets. Those 50 men, with their bayonets, beat the Abyssinians back and didn't lose a man. For a second example; Battle of Saragarhi and the famous '21 Sikhs'. It's worth reading up on, you'll be surprised. Until there is specifically a Sikh/Indian based regiment in 40k official stuff, the Death Korp are the closest we have to those unbelievable bayonet fighters.
zgort wrote: As for regiment vs regiment, there are so many variables - who is in charge of each, where are they fighting, etc. It would probably come up even (unless you were in the jungle or under siege or upon a toxic/radiated/isotope soaked world)
Fixed that for you there.
zgort wrote: As for the worlds, just throw on a hazmat suit and you are good to go on Kreig. Try the same thing on Catachan...everything will still kill you dead.
Hahaha. Seriously you think that is all it takes? Poor Catachans, clad in heavy, hot, sweaty equipment they're not used to against the Death Korp in their 'natural' environment in equipment suited ideally to where they are and that they wear all the time? If the Catachans show just the tiny amount of flesh the isotopes will soak into their flesh and shut down their nervous systems and kill them - the Catachan's only have to have a small accident and a tiny area exposed to be taken out of action by the isotopes.
Chaps, seriously, look up chemical weapons and understand just how deadly the surface of Krieg is. Catachan could, might kill you, Krieg will.
The MOLE launcher really is awesome? Considering to get one eventually, as I'd like to have every option in PDF, but if they're good as well, that's all the better.
I think that the dangers of Catachan are being severely underestimated, I mean it's a world full of bus-sized scorpions, man-eating plants, ferns that latch onto people's brain-stems and controls their body, that all barely scratches the surface without even mentioning that literally everything is coated in neurotoxin. The planet itself HUNTS PEOPLE. Being born on Catachan is the closest thing to a death sentence as is imaginable. While a suit will save your life on Krieg, only extreme skill and toughness can give you a sliver of a chance to survive on Catachan.
Right. So let's recap. A world where you can't show any flesh, even by accident, because you will die, or a world where you might or might not be eaten today.
I think we have different ideas of what makes a world dangerous. When changing your attire makes you able to survive, I would consider the threat neutral. Kreig isn't any more dangerous than a spacewalk. Would you die without a suit? Of course! Would you die with your suit? No!
Let's take a look at Catachan - pp 153 of the BRB "It is almost as if all of the biomass of [Catachan] has turned into some sort of man eating creature." - THAT, friend, is truly dangerous. Every moment of every day, you must survive against the planet, on which everything (even vegetation) is always trying to kill you (always). I think this is decidedly more dangerous than making sure your suit is on straight.
What makes the Krieg so special is their willingness to die for the God-Emperor, eager to pay a blood debt they believe they owe to the Imperium and their officers, who are drawn from the rank & file, are keen to use their troops to wear down the enemy until that enemy is incapable of continuing the fight.
So they are special because of dying in droves? If attrition is how they win - let us reexamine the OP question - who is the better FIGHTER. Being willing to die to wear down the enemy doesn't make you a better fighter - it makes you willing to die for trivial causes.
Take a look at Catachan officers - esteemed hunters and warriors (so in other words, excellent fighters) not keen to waste men on trivial gains. This means their men will fight longer, and theoretically, become even more experienced in the art of war.
I still doubt this, I reckon on the Korpsman with his bayonet against the Catachan & his knife...
I agree that the bayonet effectively makes a spear out of a rifle - which can be a truly devastating weapon. Indeed, US marines today are still trained with a bayonet. But history is full of individual instances. While the battle you point is impressive, let us look back to the Romans: Legions armed with short swords (similar to the 'knife' a Catachan would use) and effective tactics decimated the Greek phalanx style of combat (based on spears and overlapping shields) that had become the status quo.
The point is (pardon the pun), the bayonet does not necessarily equate to victory.
When I say (rightly) that a Catachan would destroyyy (three y's) a Krieg, I mean to say I think surviving against a biome of predators from your youth would create a better fighter than having to wear a gas mask and glorified long underwear while undergoing combat exercises (Which Catachans also perform)
(PS this is all in good fun - I appreciate your opinion good sir. I am of course, hopelessly biased towards ma Catachans, but please do not let that take away from my supremely awesome arguments)
Also, I'd like to see a regiment of Krieg bathe in the acidic Tyranid gore. I fear that they wouldn't be creative enough. They're dependence on established tactics would have left them dead if placed in a similar scenario as the regiment whose name I can't remember.
2) Assuming even numbers a side, I think pound for pound a Catachan is worth more in experience and skill. Sure, DKoK have numbers and artillery, but that is assuming there's a protracted, prolonged fight where they can continually throw their clones - err, I mean numbers into the grinder. And yes, in that sense they would win. As someone else stated previously, the DKoK's motif of "Live to Die" doesn't really breed a good hard fighting soldier, just a meat shield - where as every Catachan "Fights to Live". And poison air doesn't make for a tougher soldier either. Sure it sucks to always have a rebreather on, but that's relatively banal compared to fighting off all matter of plants and animals wanting to kill you...daily.
Krieg is filled with un detonated ordnance, so say, trainee #6402 steps on a shell, shells blows, everyone whose suit was damage is dead.
Plenty of danger here
''If you are not trying to kill eachother, you are not trying hard enough''
Quote from a watchmaster training his trainees in melee, right after nearly beating a rookie to death to demonstrate.
They constantly train, on leave for 6 weeks? Stay on the ship and train, those long months spent in the warp? Train! Sleep? Sleep with your gear.
If you survive long enough, you become a Grenadier, that is where the fun begins, eh eh.
Well in the end...we all have our favorite Regiments (and I ain't hiding who my favorite is!). But then, really it's Battlefield Conditions who will rule the day. What's next? Vallhallans vs. Tallarn? But where? Ice World or the Desert? Elysians vs. Cadians? All boots on the ground or dropping in units from the sky? Steel Legion vs. Death Korps (actually that I would like to see!).... fighting on a Hive World City or in the Trenches? Its amusing...and about as "accurate" as Deadliest Warrior....lol. Each Regiment is known for something they excel in, so its ultimately up to a good Imperial Commander to make use of what Regiments are thrown his way.
Now you want the most dangerous and fiercest fighters? Put money on the LAST CHANCERS!!!
Kaiserbudheim wrote: Well in the end...we all have our favorite Regiments (and I ain't hiding who my favorite is!). But then, really it's Battlefield Conditions who will rule the day. What's next? Vallhallans vs. Tallarn? But where? Ice World or the Desert? Elysians vs. Cadians? All boots on the ground or dropping in units from the sky? Steel Legion vs. Death Korps (actually that I would like to see!).... fighting on a Hive World City or in the Trenches? Its amusing...and about as "accurate" as Deadliest Warrior....lol. Each Regiment is known for something they excel in, so its ultimately up to a good Imperial Commander to make use of what Regiments are thrown his way.
Unexploded ordinance? Catachans get that from one of their Native Frogs. But it just has to be startled, not stood on. The greater barking toad if I'm not mistaken.
Catachan is a world where it takes skill to survive, not equipment, it moulds survivalists.
Krieg is certainly dangerous, but as said, probably no more so than other chemical atmosphered worlds.
Eetion wrote: Unexploded ordinance? Catachans get that from one of their Native Frogs. But it just has to be startled, not stood on. The greater barking toad if I'm not mistaken.
Catachan is a world where it takes skill to survive, not equipment, it moulds survivalists.
Krieg is certainly dangerous, but as said, probably no more so than other chemical atmosphered worlds.
Gotta agree with you sir there.
Been deployed in Afghanistan and there are millions of old russian mines and ord scattered all over...and the locals grow up there..so... minus the nasty enviroment that requires a suit..it makes them 1/2 as tough as a krieger before military training.
all the fluff on Catachan makes it a green hell, where everything is ACTIVELY trying to kill you, and no hazmat suit or carful tiptoeing will save you from a catachan devil thats looking for a snack.
or a thermo nuclear toad..
(1km kill radius with poison that penetrates through powerarmor...dear god! )
EirÃkr wrote: Because Krieg isn't a hostile environment, right?
Of course it is. Were not claiming it isn't.
But catachan while not having as poisonous environment, moulds men into vigilant, resourceful, stronger, more aware.
Krieg has part of its training on the surface, so presumably the cities are covered, they will have civilians, manufactorums geared to war certainly. But regardless men and women in a civilian role who will never set foot on the surface.
All catachans, civilian or otherwise, are first and foremost Catachans, at risk of the same bugs, snakes, diseases predators etc All catachans live on the surface all their lives, contend with and identify predators and risks on a daily basis. Every day life is a hazard, not just those korpsmen who spend the last period of training on the surface. From the moment a catachan is born the aquire the skills to make them exceptional fighters. Its not training to them, simply living.
Eetion wrote: Which is exactly the same as 'living' on catachan. They are born to it. Not trained.
Certainly not true. Yes, Catachan has a high casualty rate, but learning to hide from mutated monsters and not step into man-eating plants doesn't exactly correlate to being able to engage in pitched battles.
It does teach you the skills of camoflarge and concealment, escape and evasion, trapping, wood/forest/jungle skills, rifelry (catachans are another of those regiments where its said they learn to shoot before they walk), hunting, trapping, self sufficiency, operating without supply lines, and general guidelines for hostile predators. As well as generally improving muscle mass and physical capabilities.
All valuable skills for a soldier and fighter who's purpose isn't to run out of a trench in a battle of attrition. The point of catachan is that they try not participate in pitched battles, and a smart plan it is too.
Krieg know not to take their protective clothing on/off, how to dig trenches, and how to die. And they indoctrinate that in training.
Krieg is certainly dangerous, but given appropriate equipment its not going to kill. Catachan will kill you whatever you wear.
Very nicely argued sir.
Not at all personal attack is it.
Argue a case through reasoning please.
I state again, equipment on krieg is used for survival, catachan has equipment but no amount of equipment will protect you from a predator... Or a toad.
Right. Because some light-jibbing on the internet equates to a personal attack on sexuality.
I find that you're completely missing the point of the Imperial Guard regiments. As varied and widespread as they are, it is simply impossible to determine which one is the better. You wouldn't use a hammer to saw off a piece of wood, or a screwdriver to weld together two pieces of sheet metal. Let's get that clear, it's what you're arguing for.
I state again, equipment on krieg is used for survival, catachan has equipment but no amount of equipment will protect you from a predator... Or a toad.
I state again, equipment on Catachan is no different to equipment on Krieg. Both do the job for the situation at hand. The Kriegs would suffer in the jungle, no question about it. Unfortunately for you, Catachans would suffer heavily outside of the jungle. I'll paraphrase for you; no amount of equipment will protect you from a predator... Or a toad, nor will any amount of equipment protect you from a thermal-nuclear detonation or the shelling of innumerable artillery pieces. Take that Catachan and put him in the wasteland of Krieg or any other world where death is present in any way, shape or form - the ripped shirts will only go so far. Unfortunately, this seems to have drifted past me. I was only aware that Catachans could take on everything with a cigar and a bandana.
All valuable skills for a soldier and fighter who's purpose isn't to run out of a trench in a battle of attrition. The point of catachan is that they try not participate in pitched battles, and a smart plan it is too.
The point of Krieg is that they try not to participate in jungle battles, and a smart plan it is too. Both the Krieg and the Catachans were present during the Third War for Armageddon. As were the Mordian Iron Guard, the Elysians, the Cadians and the Savlar Chem Dogs. But hey, I guess the Catachans did the brunt of the fighting for the Imperium given their awesome cool fightin' skillz.
It swings both ways dude. I'm not stubborn [or stupid enough] to argue the case for Krieg fighting on Catachan and Catachans fighting on Krieg. Both are death worlds, both with a different set of circumstances and thus a highly individualised style of warfare that is unique to each. Take each off of their own home planet where familiarity is the norm and put them on a seperate world altogether. I'll quote you here:
Krieg is certainly dangerous, but given appropriate equipment its not going to kill. Catachan will kill you whatever you wear.
Catachan will kill you whatever you wear. Krieg will kill you whatever you wear. A Catachan is just as likely to die on the planet's surface as a Kriegsman is. The planet surface is strewn with rad-wasted debris, unexploded ammunition of every calibre and power. Why do you think the Krieg weed out the weakest of their strongest on the surface before shipping out? Because it's a death-world, as is Catachan.
Unfortunately, I don't think much of this will sink in. Catachan is Catachan is Catachan is supreme. Both are adept in their fields, both adapt to any new field with supreme flexibility. It's why they're the best of the best.
Iv not claimed kried has no place. And iv certainly not claimed catachan do the brunt.
Over the course of this discussion I have several times commended the Krieg troopers on their resolute, disciplined nature.
But that does not make them good fighters, it makes them good soldiers for the roll they fill. But only in that roll. Any force that expends a casualty rate as krieg spends more time shelling from within a trench than advancing. As iv said mutiple times, they have their place in the 40k world even as trench war becomes obsolete in ours.
Stick a korpsmen in a jungle, woodland, forest and they will struggle. Reverse is true compared to a catachan in a siege, or a poisonous environment.
Iv not missed the point regarding environment and square peg round hole use of troops.
But the skills of catachan, hunting, moving though cover, camoflarge and concealment are more valuable than nbc training and trench craft.
Krieg do excel in those conditions, but if called upon to fight in that environment, catachans can don a suit and dig a trench as well, maybe not as skillfully or quickly, but in trench war, skilled combatants are less useful, a whiteshield can dig a trench and win by attrition if needed.
In reversal, krieg would struggle more in any heavily wooded or mobile war where trenches arnt an option.
And it was clearly a personal attack. It was virtually the only point you made.
Kriegsmen are excellent combattant in melee as well (for all its worth, they ARE WS 4 on the TT)
Everyone can dig a trench, but can they hold it as well as the Kriegsmen? Come up with way to force the enemy to go where they want by digging appropriate trenches, build proper heavy weapons emplacements that will allow maxium coverage? Properly built munition stash? Make the best of what they have as far as weapons go in the trenches to maximize the efficiency of said weapons?
Eetion wrote: Stick a korpsmen in a jungle, woodland, forest and they will struggle.
Why will they?
You see the big problem here is you keep insulting humanity and the one thing that our species is absolutely spectacularly brilliant at: adapting. You keep stating this idea that as soon as the Death Korp are out of their trenches they won't have clue what to do and will just mill about getting destroyed. Considering that the Death Korp are based upon troops from the Great War, it is worth noting that there was a lot of fighting in that conflict that did not include trench warfare. To imagine that the Death Korp spend their lives learning just how to dig trenches and advance from trench to trench is absolutely ludicrous because then you have 1-trick pony troops who are useless except in one, unique situation. The Death Korp is trained to fight in a multitude of different ways - why else do they have squadrons of Death Riders within regiments, mobile troops mounted on bionically altered steeds? What use would they be in a trench? Why do the Grenadiers use Centaur vehicles to traverse the battlefield? If you're going straight from trench to trench you're better off lumping everyone into a super-heavy Gorgon and not bother with the lighter vehicles. The Siege Regiments are geared and trained specifically towards trench & siege warfare, yes, but the Infantry Regiments, who are different, are able to fight competently regardless of the terrain they find themselves in - they're just as competent as any Guard regiment in general infantry tactics but with their own little twist - a particular preference for closing with the enemy and using their bayonets.
THe big difference between the two is this: Catachans will run away when their morale breaks. The Death Korp don't understand why you wouldn't want to die for the God-Emperor and thus never retreat unless ordered to.
My bet is on DKOK.
Not to say that the Catchans wouldn't give the DKOK one hell of a hard time.
The sheer amount of manpower that the DKOK bring the table whenever they deploy is massive.
Once an effective Krieg trench line is put up, its going to be extremely difficult for the the Catchans to break it, but if they Catachans are able to harass and surgically strike against the DKOK while they are deploying it will most likely result in a Catachan victory. If that trench line is put up though its pretty much over for the Catachans. Whether they try to insert via Valkyries, the most likely will get shot down by Hydra Flak Tanks guarding the entire perimeter, or try to sneak in, which I'm sure the DKOK are used to repelling.
While the Catchans on an individual level would be a more hardy and resourceful trooper, there is not much to do when your entire sector is being barraged by dozens of Earthshaker cannons, but if the fight comes down to a one on one close combat fight the Catachan will most likely emerge victorious.
It is true that trench warfare does not require extremely skilled individuals to prepare the trenches, but you will always prefer a veteran of that theatre to hold and assault those trench lines. A great example from who the DKOK are based off was when the Germans in WW1 built their trenches they built raised up wooden platforms in their trenches so the water could run underneath the wood instead of in the soldiers boots. This simple difference when compared to the British and French sloppily built trenches, they had a much higher rate of trench foot then the Germans.
Eetion wrote: Stick a korpsmen in a jungle, woodland, forest and they will struggle.
Why will they?
You see the big problem here is you keep insulting humanity and the one thing that our species is absolutely spectacularly brilliant at: adapting. You keep stating this idea that as soon as the Death Korp are out of their trenches they won't have clue what to do and will just mill about getting destroyed. Considering that the Death Korp are based upon troops from the Great War, it is worth noting that there was a lot of fighting in that conflict that did not include trench warfare. To imagine that the Death Korp spend their lives learning just how to dig trenches and advance from trench to trench is absolutely ludicrous because then you have 1-trick pony troops who are useless except in one, unique situation. The Death Korp is trained to fight in a multitude of different ways - why else do they have squadrons of Death Riders within regiments, mobile troops mounted on bionically altered steeds? What use would they be in a trench? Why do the Grenadiers use Centaur vehicles to traverse the battlefield? If you're going straight from trench to trench you're better off lumping everyone into a super-heavy Gorgon and not bother with the lighter vehicles. The Siege Regiments are geared and trained specifically towards trench & siege warfare, yes, but the Infantry Regiments, who are different, are able to fight competently regardless of the terrain they find themselves in - they're just as competent as any Guard regiment in general infantry tactics but with their own little twist - a particular preference for closing with the enemy and using their bayonets.
THe big difference between the two is this: Catachans will run away when their morale breaks. The Death Korp don't understand why you wouldn't want to die for the God-Emperor and thus never retreat unless ordered to.
Well I understand the Death riders are recon and sentinels within a siege regiment and capitalise on a break through.
The siege regiments are what krieg are famous for. Sure they have infantry, just as tallarn have artillery and catachan have armoured. But their doctrine is still one of attrition is it not, infantry, siege, or artillery etc
Korpsemen would struggle for exactly the same reason that other regiments would struggle, why steel legion struggle intunnel fighting, catachans struggle in siegesn you take a man out of his comfort zone and he's no better than anyone else, that and it must be harsh living in permanent nbc gear.
His indoctrination and disregard for his own life has a place. But it can result in excessive loss for futile gains.
You say a catachans morale can break, maybe, but in a hopeless cause, catachans will still be capable of continuing the fight another day. There are differences between tactical withdrawals and fleeing. A catachan isn't a korpsmen, and will do their duty, but won't squander their lives fruitlessly either.
What I believe is that the skills learned from birth on catachan, are more wide ranging than the korpsmens skills useable in a wider variety of environments.
So you're willing to forget about everything else the Korp have to offer in place of Catachans maintaining top-spot? Good show.
Korpsemen would struggle for exactly the same reason that other regiments would struggle, why steel legion struggle intunnel fighting, catachans struggle in siegesn you take a man out of his comfort zone and he's no better than anyone else, that and it must be harsh living in permanent nbc gear. His indoctrination and disregard for his own life has a place. But it can result in excessive loss for futile gains.
As I said. Take any of the legions out of their preferred style of fighting and discomfort will ensue, however adaptation would swiftly follow. The Krieg are almost literally birthed, raised and regimented in their uniforms. No loss of life is too great in the light of the Emperor, no life is wasted for the Emperor's followers. "Futile gains" is something we on the outside, as observers, can state with ease. There is no such thing in the 41st Millennium. Every gain, no matter how trivial, is a victory for the Emperor. It's easy to distinguish and cast a negative light on a regiment if you take a different angle. It's just as easy, thankfully, to shift it into a positive frame.
You say a catachans morale can break, maybe, but in a hopeless cause, catachans will still be capable of continuing the fight another day. There are differences between tactical withdrawals and fleeing. A catachan isn't a korpsmen, and will do their duty, but won't squander their lives fruitlessly either.
If it's a hopeless cause, why would they be fighting to another day? A hopeless cause would suggest annihilation in the maws of death; the Krieg will walk stiffly into annihilation for the glory of the Emperor. The Korps will also withdraw if ordered to by a superior. You cannot and should not view this as 'fruitlessly' wasting a life because it isn't - not within the universe we play toy soldiers with.
What I believe is that the skills learned from birth on catachan, are more wide ranging than the korpsmens skills useable in a wider variety of environments.
And what we are saying is that the Krieg learn a different set of skills, in some regards overlapping, yet still they come to the same conclusion. Supreme firepower, unwavering morale and endless devotion to the God-Emperor are hallmarks of the Korpsman - the means to the end may be different but the end result is the same in both instances. If what you are saying is true; why aren't Catachan's most famous sons deployed to a wider variety of sectors other than the typical jungle tundra?
This is what happens when you compare units that fight for the same side, but with different specialties..no one is the bestest at everything (cept SM of course ).
Dead soldiers have never won a battle for anyone..dying for a cause is all good and wonderful, but I prefer making the enemy die for their cause instead, a resolute acceptenace of death is all great and very grimdark and very fitting for the setting of 40k and I think the kreigers look really cool, and love their fluff.
But I have never liked the notion of commanders considering their men as ammo to be expended and a a fatalistic almost suicidal mentality, I cannot really get behind, you usually have to survive to acheive objectives.
the very fact that commisars have to be placed within Kreig regiments to curtail their potential self destructive tendencies to never waver or sometimes lose sight of the Big picture..is pretty crazy.
I just feel a radioactive wasteland with unexploded ord, is not as nasty of a world as one with a living ecosystem trying its best to kill you and eat your eyes like ju-ju beans.
both are deathworlds..I just feel Catachan is a death-ier world.
and for the record Catachan regiments have seen service as far back as the Macharian crusade, so I am sure they do a bit more than jungle only ops..unless there are alot of jungle world to fight over.
Maybe compare Kreigers against sombody else that does seige/counter seige warfare on the other side..like the Iron warriors or somesuch.
and Kroot vs.Catachaners would be a nice knock up.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Kreig minis beat out Catachan minis hands down.
Fluff is fluff, eveyone is a tiger in their own back yard.
Kreig wins wars by digging in and wearing down the enemy.
Catachan wins by surgical strikes, ambushes and timed hit and fades.
Different tools for different jobs...which is tougher or better fighters...whichever wins.
^ pretty much this. ^
In a straight-up, open fight, I can't really decide- ranged I'd say the Death Korps would have the upper hand (artillery etc.), though in a straight-up melee the catachans would crush the Death Korps.
I think the problem with Catachan is that they depend heavily on terrain (such as the time when Straken strangled the Chaos Lord - he was hiding in a mud-pit or somesuch if I am not mistaken).
This means that armies like Krieg, who specialize in military engineering, will utterly demolish them. Military and siege engineers are supposed to take the terrain available and convert it into the most formidable defensive position or offensive springboard that they can.
This includes obliterating entire forests (or jungles), re-engineering hills, blasting houses and building pillboxes.
All of this takes time, but when you pit a terrain-dependent foe against a force designed to alter the terrain to suit its needs, then you have a problem.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think the problem with Catachan is that they depend heavily on terrain (such as the time when Straken strangled the Chaos Lord - he was hiding in a mud-pit or somesuch if I am not mistaken).
This means that armies like Krieg, who specialize in military engineering, will utterly demolish them. Military and siege engineers are supposed to take the terrain available and convert it into the most formidable defensive position or offensive springboard that they can.
This includes obliterating entire forests (or jungles), re-engineering hills, blasting houses and building pillboxes.
All of this takes time, but when you pit a terrain-dependent foe against a force designed to alter the terrain to suit its needs, then you have a problem.
The Catachan are masters of stealth, ambush and traps. These skills transfer to any environment. All the Catachan need to do is find a preferable area, set the trap and wait, it need not necessarily be a jungle. A well baited trap will urge the Kreig (as they are so willing to die for even meagre gains) into a trench-rush right into the heart of an explosive trap or a concealed ambush. Guerrilla/Swarm tactics will mop up the survivors.
I think this discussion has far deviated from the original post.
The question is, who is the better fighter - Catachans or Krieg?
Both are fantastic fighters - the Krieg are renowned fighters and the Catachans are renowned fighters. Both are freakin' awesome.
The poster wanted to know opinions on who was the better FIGHTER.
Both would die on the other's planet - both have seen invented scenarios where one wins and the other dies. It's not regiment v. regiment - its fighter vs. fighter.
The other question was which planet is more deadly. Both are deadly for different reasons. The question was which is DEADLIER.
If we're talking a versus contest, hands down Catachans.
Their style of war is an exact counter to regimental standardized warfare, with hit and run guerilla tactics, infiltration and disguise, and precision striking enemy key weak points, while not engaging the main bulk in a standoff.
That is their element, they WANT to fight a huge traditional army, because they'll pick and tear at its soft spots until the end of time, all the while evading open firefights.
purplefood wrote: I think the Catachan could probably mess anyone up with whatever comes to hand...
In fact didn't Straken strangle a chaos lord with a vine?
Straken is a bionic monstrocity with a chainfist for an arm.
purplefood wrote: I think the Catachan could probably mess anyone up with whatever comes to hand...
In fact didn't Straken strangle a chaos lord with a vine?
Straken is a bionic monstrocity with a chainfist for an arm.
He's right though, given any set of any kinds of circumstances, I'd vote for Catachans for being more able to adapt.
Actually, in 40k, human survival all about rigidly adhering to counter-intuitive dogma. So DKoK win there. Of course, are you still human if you manage to survive -- that's what GrimDark is all about.
I say Krieg. Imo, Id prefer guys who WEAR ARMOR. Catas are runnin round in vests,
Kriegsmen
1: ARMOR-More survivability
2.ARTILLERY-Long range, takes out cover. Nothing to hide behind.
3:Organised fire- Blankets of las-fire comin at you, where do you go?
4. Imo, BETTER at cq
Why would it matter where? Jungle? No more jungle. Wastes? Hill of dead. Only place catas might beat Krieg, is in a city. Maybe.
Death Korps.
It's probarbly me just being a fanboy, but they're just epic.
Just like everybody's said before though, theyr'e both specialist regiments and excell at different things. The IoM need's both.
Decio wrote: ^ What. I'm not sure how you are comparing, but 15 Catachans charging would be worse than or equal to 2 or more Kriegsmen charging? Or shooting?
I was using hyperbole to illustrate my point, but what I was trying to say is that 1v1 the Catachan is probably better, but at any unit tactics whatsoever, from fireteam to army-wide, the DKoK have much better inter-arms and interpersonal communication, as they all have identical fatalistic and realistic looks at war.
Catachans are Space USMC(The actual marines); Death Korp of Krieg is Space WW1 German/French soldiers from WW1. And of course the USMC> Wehrmacht.
You mad?
Krieg are the most badass IG Regiment in the galaxy, second only to Cadians themselves.
They are emotionless, loyal to the Emperor to the point where Black Templar loyalty seems small, they can withstand to lose millions and still fight on and they nuked their own homeworld to prove their loyalty.
+ they are based on WW1 western front solders but mostly going toward Wehrmacht witch makes them more than awesome.
How about this,
they can win WITHOUT losing millions of men
Also, because the Catachans aren't emotionless, they tend to be much more interesting and use actual tactics instead of DURR CHARGE DURR I DUNNO NO FEAR DURR CHARGE
Catachans lean towards US marines, which makes them even more awesome; in other words, they get gak done
For the history ignorant German military fanboys who keep saying that the Catachans don't wear armor and will lose automatically,
guess how the Army and Marines dressed in the Vietnam War?
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flamero wrote: I say Krieg. Imo, Id prefer guys who WEAR ARMOR. Catas are runnin round in vests,
Kriegsmen
1: ARMOR-More survivability
2.ARTILLERY-Long range, takes out cover. Nothing to hide behind.
3:Organised fire- Blankets of las-fire comin at you, where do you go?
4. Imo, BETTER at cq
Why would it matter where? Jungle? No more jungle. Wastes? Hill of dead. Only place catas might beat Krieg, is in a city. Maybe.
the Jungles of Catachan WILL grow back with twice the effort should it be demolished, its not as easy as it seems; thats why its a DEATH world, jungle planets and death worlds are different classifications
and thats assuming the flora and the fauna of said planet don't mess with the kriegsmen
Bobthehero wrote: Yeah but then drop the Catachan in Krieg, and if they're not dressed like Kriegsmen, they're dead, end of.
Krieg are not retards that only know to charge, they use plenty of tactics, even those that might cost a lot of troops.
Tbh, i haven't seen a single instance where the Deathkorps fights like a halfway competent, modern army. WW1 style trench warfare was the result of a very specific combination of circumstances which should only rarely happen in the technologicaly advanced 40. millenium. Specialising solely in this kind of warfare appears to be a waste of time and ressources imo.
Bobthehero wrote: Yeah but then drop the Catachan in Krieg, and if they're not dressed like Kriegsmen, they're dead, end of.
Krieg are not retards that only know to charge, they use plenty of tactics, even those that might cost a lot of troops.
Tbh, i haven't seen a single instance where the Deathkorps fights like a halfway competent, modern army. WW1 style trench warfare was the result of a very specific combination of circumstances which should only rarely happen in the technologicaly advanced 40. millenium. Specialising solely in this kind of warfare appears to be a waste of time and ressources imo.
The problem is, in a place as big as the galaxy with a civilization as backwards as the Imperium, those "very specific combination of circumstances" are happening somewhere at all times, and that is where the DKoK will be sent.
Bobthehero wrote: Yeah but then drop the Catachan in Krieg, and if they're not dressed like Kriegsmen, they're dead, end of.
Krieg are not retards that only know to charge, they use plenty of tactics, even those that might cost a lot of troops.
Tbh, i haven't seen a single instance where the Deathkorps fights like a halfway competent, modern army. WW1 style trench warfare was the result of a very specific combination of circumstances which should only rarely happen in the technologicaly advanced 40. millenium. Specialising solely in this kind of warfare appears to be a waste of time and ressources imo.
Dead Men Walking, they use siege to destroy the city, which is pretty standard procedure, tbh, they send Grenadiers in as recons, to identify who they're fighting, said Grenadiers are infiltrated in Valkyries and later on with underground means, they use city combat (using cover vs warriors, going all Krieg on the Flayed Ones).
Hate the models, but I think growing up on a planet that constantly tries to kill you is harder than someone trying to break you. Also, the biggest hazard of krieg is avoided with a mask and suit. All the armor in the galaxy can't protect you from catachan. It's all about wits, agility, and fortitude.
The merest, tiniest gap between clothing and skin is fatal on Krieg. We're talking isotopes as deadly, if not more so, than Sarin, especially because of their long half-life and the density of them. That urge to scratch that itch on your wrist - you can't. Or on your nose. Or anywhere on the body. You just have to live with it because the instinctual urge to scratch can get you killed. If you get hot in the equipment you can't open it up to improve the airflow, if your clothing is torn then you will most likely die. If you're food/drink pipes in your mask make contact with the air they'll be contaminated and you will die. If the end of your air tube is contaminated you will die.
Catachan is a planet that will try and kill you, Krieg is a planet that will kill you. Both are horrific to live upon.
Sparks_Havelock wrote: The merest, tiniest gap between clothing and skin is fatal on Krieg. We're talking isotopes as deadly, if not more so, than Sarin, especially because of their long half-life and the density of them. That urge to scratch that itch on your wrist - you can't. Or on your nose. Or anywhere on the body. You just have to live with it because the instinctual urge to scratch can get you killed. If you get hot in the equipment you can't open it up to improve the airflow, if your clothing is torn then you will most likely die. If you're food/drink pipes in your mask make contact with the air they'll be contaminated and you will die. If the end of your air tube is contaminated you will die.
Catachan is a planet that will try and kill you, Krieg is a planet that will kill you. Both are horrific to live upon.
Yet dont scratch that itch and your fine... The worlds inconvenient.
Catachans arnt stupid either and certainly wouldnt deploy into a radiated wasteland without appropriate protection.
But their is protection.... The most wet , pathetic Guardsmen in existence can survive providing he knows how to use his equipment.
On Catachan, no gizmo, or piece of equipment will help. Only skill, fortitude, reflexes and luck.
In each of their respective home worlds, they would thrash their opponent- in an open, generic area in a straight-up fight, Krieg would win.
I'd say they're roughly equal at CQB (Catachans have strength, Krieg have numbers and no emotions).
So it comes down to how they perform at range, which Krieg are definitely superior at with their ridiculous amount of artillery.
What would happen in an open battle is Catachans would try and hide in woodland and rely on skirmishers, while Krieg would set up a perimeter, dig in and basically just flatten any nearby foliage (or cover for that matter) with artillery fire until the Catachans push an attack, where they will take huge losses from artillery fire and a storm of las-fire, then the remainder who get up close will get mobbed.
Catachan's best hope would be to use guerrilla tactics, but they will inevitably lose due to the resolve and single-minded determination of the death korps.
I have a bias here, as does everyone.
I will let it shine through before I try to be objective.
The Catachans are jungle fighters whose idea of "good camouflage" is putting bright red targets on everyone's foreheads and leaving their entire upper bodies bare and like most of 40k they are as white as bleached cornbread, so that's gonna reflect light pretty well. The models are consistently painted wearing white wifebeaters as camo, and their official paints (and usually fan paints) do not tend to use things such as camo beyond "well my pants are green", glare-reducing smears under the eyes, ghillie suits or other advanced camouflage, or even basic profile-muddling patterns. They are furthermore against the concept of orders or following battle plans, vehemently so.
The very fact that they are effective ANYWHERE in 40k's fantastically cruel setting, and not much more ineffective than the Vietnam-era US soldiers they're based on ended up being already, is something we just have to take GW's word for.
The Krieg meanwhile use outdated and cruel tactics (well, depends on who you ask - Dead Men Walking sees them use quite competent ones, and that's the most deep fluff book we have on them) but seem to at least be aware of their role. And of course, trench warfare in a setting where small arms fire has a maximum effective range so short that cavalry charges are quite able to go from "out of range" to "skewering you" in the timespan it takes for you to fire a single shot is actually a lot more reasonable and logical than it ever was in real life.
Now that THAT is out of the way...
In a Krieg vs Catachan fight, the Krieg will win, because while both are by human standards very good at close quarters combat (by current edition rules, the krieg are in fact as good as the Space Marines and leave the Catachans in the dust), the Krieg's special rule "Turn any and all terrain into mud-caked trench-filled hellholes" ensures that they are never out of their element, whereas the Catachans are as soon as they stop being surrounded by trees.
However, that singular thing is not sufficient to tell who is more effective.
Against Chaos, the Krieg are resolute and unyielding in the extreme, second only to Cadians in suitability to fight a foe that works on killing morale and spreading fear. The fact that chaos invading a world will alter the topology and terrain, if in sufficient size, further skews this.
Against Orks, the Catachans have a clear advantage. A frustrating foe that surgically attacks leadership and vulnerable targets is perfect for fighting an army like the orks. Where the Krieg can use heavily fortified positions to lure the orks into all-out assaults across no man's land and then blow them to tiny little pieces with several thousand tons of ordnance, and bayonet anything wriggling, the Catachans can use much fewer resources to dismantle a WAAAGH.
This continues, going down each possible enemy.
Ultimately however, the fact that the Krieg are ADAPTABLE, MUCH MORE SO THAN THE CATACHANS, is what brings me over to their side the most.
Catachans are almost exclusively light scouts, suited to one particular environment.
Their most famous weapon is the flamer, which they field in large numbers. It is well adapted to dealing with groups of weak creatures, but excessively poor at trying to fight armour, monstrous creatures, or heavily armoured enemies.
The Krieg do not only have siege regiments, but armoured companies, armoured fist regiments, scores upon scores of artillery regiments, ordinary infantry regiments, and dedicated heavy-armor veteran grenadiers.
They are famed for using large quantities of meltaguns, which are weapons able to bring down almost any target. They can use these in conjunction with their fabled heavy artillery to deal with enemy armour and tank-equivalent monsters as well as their most heavily armoured elite soldiers.
My vote as is probably clear goes to the Krieg, as the more overall adaptable and deadly regiment of the two. If the catachans win in one environment and the Krieg win in seven others, it is clear who is the better overall choice.
Even if the Krieg tactics are outdated, they are not the ones trying to take on the horrors of 40k armed only with wifebeaters, knives, and a few flamers.
mynamelegend wrote: Against Chaos, the Krieg are resolute and unyielding in the extreme, second only to Cadians in suitability to fight a foe that works on killing morale and spreading fear.
I'd say Krieg are better at dealing with an enemy which sows fear and destroys morale- Cadians are used to it, but Death Korps physically cannot be affected by it.
other than that, pretty much every point there is well made
shrike wrote: in an open, generic area in a straight-up fight, Krieg would win.
I'd say they're roughly equal at CQB (Catachans have strength, Krieg have numbers and no emotions).
So it comes down to how they perform at range, which Krieg are definitely superior at with their ridiculous amount of artillery.
What would happen in an open battle is Catachans would try and hide in woodland and rely on skirmishers, while Krieg would set up a perimeter, dig in and basically just flatten any nearby foliage (or cover for that matter) with artillery fire until the Catachans push an attack, where they will take huge losses from artillery fire and a storm of las-fire, then the remainder who get up close will get mobbed.
Catachan's best hope would be to use guerrilla tactics, but they will inevitably lose due to the resolve and single-minded determination of the death korps.
Not so sure about that. That's assuming the DKoK had (a lot of) time to set up their trench lines, haul in their artillery, and set up the necessary logistical chains necessary to run their style of warfare.... Granted I don't know too much of the DKoK fluff, but I'm pretty sure they can't "flash-mob" their massive forces into a warzone. They would constantly get harassed and raided while trying to set themselves up. Heck, maybe a few "barking toads" will show up at their landing sites...!
Sparks_Havelock wrote: The merest, tiniest gap between clothing and skin is fatal on Krieg. We're talking isotopes as deadly, if not more so, than Sarin, especially because of their long half-life and the density of them. That urge to scratch that itch on your wrist - you can't. Or on your nose. Or anywhere on the body. You just have to live with it because the instinctual urge to scratch can get you killed. If you get hot in the equipment you can't open it up to improve the airflow, if your clothing is torn then you will most likely die. If you're food/drink pipes in your mask make contact with the air they'll be contaminated and you will die. If the end of your air tube is contaminated you will die.
Catachan is a planet that will try and kill you, Krieg is a planet that will kill you. Both are horrific to live upon.
Yet dont scratch that itch and your fine... The worlds inconvenient.
Having to be aware 24/7 that anything you may do, even instinctively, can lead you to die in a couple of seconds from the isotopes soaked into the planet is just an inconvenience? After two weeks of being buttoned up in uniform & equipment it must be astoundingly hard to not want to wipe away sweat from the face, to stop it from stinging the eyes, being unable to wipe away the gound from your eyesockets (that sharp prickly sensation when you wake up with all that gunk at the corners of your eyes - imagine that day after day for hours until the fluids of your eyes manage to wash it away), to not scratch at any itches, to suppress the urge to look at your own body - we can look at our own skin each day and every day but not being able to do so after several weeks? Must be hard to not want to double check you're ok and all in one piece. Spots and boils must be horrible to have, wanting to examine them because you can feel them but can't see them yet you can't look at them at all. Even when they're asleep Korpsmen have to suppress instinctive urges to scratch or take off things such as their gloves or loosen their boots or clothing.
It's not about knowing how to use the equipment, it's about living in that equipment without falling to instinctual needs to do even the most innocuous thing. Try not to scratch any itches for an entire day - you'll scratch one instinctively at some point.
Kaiserbudheim wrote: Not so sure about that. That's assuming the DKoK had (a lot of) time to set up their trench lines, haul in their artillery, and set up the necessary logistical chains necessary to run their style of warfare.... Granted I don't know too much of the DKoK fluff, but I'm pretty sure they can't "flash-mob" their massive forces into a warzone. They would constantly get harassed and raided while trying to set themselves up. Heck, maybe a few "barking toads" will show up at their landing sites...!
That's only the case if you take the limited view that the Death Korp can only fight from trenches, which is false. As they're based upon the Western Front of The Great War, which had a lot of fighting where trenches weren't even involved, it stands to reason that the Death Korp can 'flash mob' a warzone, in fact that would be damned scary to face, a never-ending supply of grim, faceless soldiers who don't fallback without orders who are advancing on you, moving from cover to cover, firing away at you, creeping ever closer until they close-in with the bayonet, the most fearsome bayonet fighters of the Imperium charging down the enemy.
I think people get hung up too far on the trench thing. The speciality of the Death Korp of Krieg, where they're the absolute best of the best, untouchable in their capabilities by any other regiment from any other world, is when fighting turns to trench/attritional based warfare or offensive siegeworks. Outside of those they're still more than capable soldiers who can move, shoot, use cover, work in small formations to advance upon the enemy until they can use their flamers, melta's & long bayonets on them. They're not one-dimensional soldiers who can only fight near trenches, they're fearless killing machines who just happen to not care whether they die or not whilst they try to kill their beloved God-Emperor's enemies - the longer they stay alive the better as they can kill more of those enemies but if they die then they've paid their part of Krieg's blood-debt.
).
