Big oof. At that price, I'd rather get a Five Seven and be able to conceal it... and of course, I decided that was too expensive a long time ago, too.
Someday there will be a 5.7mm gun that is not a cash grab, but it looks like today is not that day. Which is a shame, because I bet it's a fun caliber.
Taking the AR FCG is a weird bit of engineering. I wonder if they did it to keep costs down.
Ouze wrote: Oh yeah, i forgot that one was coming out! At $800, that's in the "expensive, but doable" category. I'm interested for sure.
My local gun store is offering them for around $675.
Spoiler:
I need to pause to let me wallet absorb the CZ pistol a bit though. That's being delivered to my FFL today, along with all the magpul addons I got to tart it up with. I skipped the binary trigger for now - it was bad enough when my $100 bump stock was turned unlawful on a political whim, I'm not sure I want to gamble with a $450 addon.
I've got a 57. Apart from 20 round capacity it is nothing special. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. The ammo is very expensive and it just feels like a toy in my hands. A toy that is really expensive to shoot. I just can't get it to shoot straight ether. Some people might like it but I really regret getting it. It did come with a really nice case and several magazines though .
I've been fascinated with South Korea's K2 for a while, and unexpectedly obtained one, albeit paired with a PTR32.
Spoiler:
This K2 is apparently a particularly early one, with a pinned piston/bolt carrier and a 1/12 twist rate barrel as it was produced before NATO standardization on M855. Whoever owned it before me I think shot it once in 1985 and never touched it again, I'm pretty sure I put more wear on it taking it apart and playing with the action than it had when I got it a couple days ago.
The internals however are pretty neat, most of the FCG (apart from the safety) is interchangeable with standard AR15 FCG parts (or can be modified to fit), while the operating mechanism is essentially an AR BCG with the back end cut off and stuck to an AK piston/recoil assembly.
The trio of roller locks
I'm undecided on the fate of the PTR32. It's neat, the fit/finish is gorgeous, and its practically brand new, but it's also heavy and awkward (easily weighs more and balances worse than the .308 in there) and is extremely picky on mags.
Going to need to get to the range soon...but probably not in the next couple of weeks unfortunately.
Yeah it's a normal lug, there's just a weird machining mark on one side that caught the light oddly. The later DR200 imports that had thumbhole stocks had it milled off.
Gracias! Gun Jebus's book is pretty cool, I'm looking forward to the others from the same group coming out on the Kabul arsenal and Soviet/Russian development.
Nice. Not picking one of those up when they were still available new at Atlantic Firearms is my number one firearms purchase-related regret. I'm hoping the ISD Bulgarian BSR-74 that Arsenal is supposedly going to be importing is reasonably priced and similar in quality to the SLR-104 variants. I do not intend to make the same mistake twice!
Yeah, anyone who missed out an Arsenal or Saiga rifle when they were new and $500....(ugh, it pains me!) is kicking themselves. That was the best rifle for the best price you could buy at the time. Now the leftovers are all $1200+, etc.
I've been abusing one of these for 10 years or so (the other is a backup)
Spoiler:
Both Rifle Dynamics builds back when Fuller was running it and before they took off and he left.
This is the "go to" gun, referred to fondly as "The Brown Bitch". It's around 15,000 rounds deep and running like a top.
They were built in a time when I had the funds to do it all. The magazines are old surplus mags just hit with Brownell's Alumahyde spray - same way the rifles are done. I have a few new 74 mags, but the old surplus ones will probably never die, so I keep running them. I've since ditched the Magpul forend furniture and gone back to the standard 74 stuff to keep it more streamlined/small.
I'm waiting for PSA to make a decent 5.45 version of their new AKs and I might eventually swap one out. AK's are a bitch to get modified properly, so if PSA can do all the stuff necessary right off the bat, it'd be nice to have a gun with a proper warranty. The AK market is a friggin' minefield and is super frustrating to discuss with new shooters, etc.
I hope PSA puts a huge dent in the market with their stuff.
PS: Yes, I love my Vickers sling. Eventually I'll outfit the other rifle with an MRDS of some sort and a sling, but it never gets any use right now. Problem of having a back-up AK....your starter AK never breaks.
Eh, I've had two gun related things happen over the weekend. One, my Type 38's hand guard cracked. fething spares are expensive when available at all. And I got out my 1930's H&R Bay State and cleaned it. It's been a bit of a closet queen for a while.
Update...finally found a deal on a Dillon square B progressive reloading vice.....all I can say is wow what a difference...came with 4 different cal to reload... absolutely amazed how much faster I can turn out quality ammo.
I wish I had the space for a reloading bench...one find day. Anything particularly cool you're reloading?
BaronIveagh wrote: Eh, I've had two gun related things happen over the weekend. One, my Type 38's hand guard cracked. fething spares are expensive when available at all. And I got out my 1930's H&R Bay State and cleaned it. It's been a bit of a closet queen for a while.
I've seen monte carlo stocks for Type 38's, but never originals or repros sadly.
My reloading stuff is currently in boxes, I had to dismantle the old shed as it was rotting around my ears, now in the process of sorting out a new one.
I love my Dillon 550B, makes reloading almost a pleasure
Vaktathi wrote: I've seen monte carlo stocks for Type 38's, but never originals or repros sadly.
Yeah, it's looking like I'll have to bend over and buy one of the full stock and hand guard sets people sell. *sigh* On the up side, I found an Afghan Jazail in a closet. I'll break out the camera and do a few pics tomorrow maybe.
LOL You should have lived in the house I grew up in. My brother is still finding loose pistols in that place.
cuda1179 wrote: Stuff's getting real in my town. Handful of break-ins, some beatings. All for basic stuff. For the first time I'm considering carrying while at home.
The local public range which was supposed to be close permanently is back open - guessing people blew up their phones/email or something....felt good to get out and shoot today. Really getting comfortable with the carry gun.
Starting with a budget friendly, good quality, and comfortable pistol.
Researched quite a few, but was limited in selection unfortunately (seems like everyone has the same idea I did).
Going with the Ruger Security 9 with the Hogue grip.
Felt one at a shop, and felt good....but am going to get the 17 round extended mag to increase the grip length so my pinkey finger has a better, more secure grip.
Awesome, hope you like it. My current carry piece is also a Ruger, albeit an LCR.
When you get a chance, get us a range report
Went to the range myself today, took the PTR32 out for the 2nd time, finally got in an MLOK handguard and a VFG for it, tried it out next to the original wide handguard/bipod, I think it's an improvement (definitely much lighter) though doesn't have the same HK look, but more than anything I realized how much I hate the stock actually, the length of pull on those things is stupid long and makes maneuvering the gun and getting a proper sight picture a PITA. Never bothered changing it on my PTR91GIR as I basically bought it specifically as a G3 clone, but deffo going to have to change it on the this one. Unfortunately I think my only option is a $300 Spuhr stock
Starting with a budget friendly, good quality, and comfortable pistol.
Researched quite a few, but was limited in selection unfortunately (seems like everyone has the same idea I did).
Going with the Ruger Security 9 with the Hogue grip.
Felt one at a shop, and felt good....but am going to get the 17 round extended mag to increase the grip length so my pinkey finger has a better, more secure grip.
Feel good with a price of $310.
Spoiler:
Congrats,I think the security line will serve you well. Now you can start saving for the Ruger PC carbine that takes the same magazines.
Wonder where Security 7 and 8 ended up?
Well...
Added a Kimber 10mm 1911 to my collection. Nice. Fired off a mag just for to be familiar with it. Added Springfield 911 380. After firing the 10mm and then firing that...sounded like a .22 Added a Henry lever action hex barrel 47 50 round that um......cheap to buy but the rounds are expensive (200 rds over $500). 2 rds fired into a fell tree. 1st shot figure a tree with 18 trunk was good.....tree is going to die I'm sure. Huge exit hole. 2nd shot a fell tree with path of travel was down the trunk. Remain 198rds was ammo boxed and set in storage Added a .22 Henry lever action rifle to. That was fun to fire off seven rds. Not at once. I had a failure to fire and waiting ten minutes before I extracted the round. Felt like "The Rifleman" moment though
Added equipment
6 Magpuls
2 Sight Marks, one is now on my M4
4 more 15 rds mags for my M1 carbine with pouches (this is a very fun plinker weapon)
Starting with a budget friendly, good quality, and comfortable pistol.
Researched quite a few, but was limited in selection unfortunately (seems like everyone has the same idea I did).
Going with the Ruger Security 9 with the Hogue grip.
Felt one at a shop, and felt good....but am going to get the 17 round extended mag to increase the grip length so my pinkey finger has a better, more secure grip.
Feel good with a price of $310.
Spoiler:
Ruger is good stuff. My first pistol was a Ruger. I don't have personal experience with the Security 9, but it if performs similarly to most other Ruger handguns, it should serve you well.
Jihadin wrote: Well...
Added a Kimber 10mm 1911 to my collection. Nice. Fired off a mag just for to be familiar with it. Added Springfield 911 380. After firing the 10mm and then firing that...sounded like a .22 Added a Henry lever action hex barrel 47 50 round that um......cheap to buy but the rounds are expensive (200 rds over $500). 2 rds fired into a fell tree. 1st shot figure a tree with 18 trunk was good.....tree is going to die I'm sure. Huge exit hole. 2nd shot a fell tree with path of travel was down the trunk. Remain 198rds was ammo boxed and set in storage Added a .22 Henry lever action rifle to. That was fun to fire off seven rds. Not at once. I had a failure to fire and waiting ten minutes before I extracted the round. Felt like "The Rifleman" moment though
Added equipment
6 Magpuls
2 Sight Marks, one is now on my M4
4 more 15 rds mags for my M1 carbine with pouches (this is a very fun plinker weapon)
The often feel M1 carbine dose not get the respect it deserves. It seems to generate a lot of discussion. One of my Vietnam vet buddies once said, and I quote " stone cold killers chose the M1 carbine."
From my subjective experience with the M1, they're funky.
They're light, handy, cool looking, fun to shoot and easy to operate. I can definitely see the draw of one during WW2/Korea for a mag fed semiauto when volume of fire is paramount. I've also never seen one make it through more than about a hundred rounds without a malfunction of some sort (be they original WW2 guns, modern repros, rebuilds/kitbuilds, etc), the magazines are finicky, and the cartridge itself occupies something of a weird niche.
Vaktathi wrote: From my subjective experience with the M1, they're funky.
They're light, handy, cool looking, fun to shoot and easy to operate. I can definitely see the draw of one during WW2/Korea for a mag fed semiauto when volume of fire is paramount. I've also never seen one make it through more than about a hundred rounds without a malfunction of some sort (be they original WW2 guns, modern repros, rebuilds/kitbuilds, etc), the magazines are finicky, and the cartridge itself occupies something of a weird niche.
Well when my father handed it over to me. I researched the serial number. Last refurb was after the Korean War. I gave the weapon a spin after disassemble and cleaning and the weapon had a major feed problem. So again I took it apart and reassemble this time from a YouTube video. Still was having the same issue on failure to feed. Then I remember magazine (clip ) upkeep on M4 I've done on deployements
Some mags don't get use all so after 30-45 days I unload the clip and take apart the mag to stretch out the spring and rotate them to my upper pouches on my body armor
Took the 15 rds mag apart and they were in serious need of service. No idea how long my Father had the clips(mags) fully loaded. After that I burned through four mags with just one failure to feed but SPORTS remedy that (no idea what it is for M1 but safety was paramount)
He also had 30 rds mags. Now those suck to and wouldn't even recommend it to anyone.
Sorry got a little off track there.
The first thing I did though before firing the M1 was see how the magazine actually sits in the well. I'm going to compare the chambers here using my M4 (AR15). The M4 chamber actually has "guides" to help chamber the round. The M1 does not. Chamber itself is straight cut off and with no guides. Even the brass casing edge if not "sealed" to round itself will cause the round to not chamber by jamming on the "cut off portion".
So remedy on that is use a washer which fit the .30 cal round itself. Easily slide through round is good. If it catches its set to the side.
Bad rounds I use another washer that I use that I counter sunk a bit and with a non metallic mallet tap them though. Chamber the round individually and eject the round. The load the round in a mag and go from there. Pretty much simple. Don't try if your not familiar with fire arms and rounds and you buy one
I feel comfy with it now and have over 1k rds for it for home defense and plinking. My wife wants a pink sling for it...
Oh my goodness....the Security 9 that I handled at one shop this weekend didn't have the Hogue grip, and my pinky was slipping off.
Today when I went to get *my* pistol, that came with the Hogue grip.....what a world of difference!!
Feels super comfortable and no pinky slippage.
Can't wait to get to a range. The one I usually go to in Ames is closed right now.
Getting some inexpensive ammo to range fire could be a challenge.
I have some Speer 124gr LE Gold Dot Jacketed Hollow Point to use at home. Paid a pretty penny for it...so hate to run it through the range if I don't have to.
Most important thing to do with any defensive ammo you select is to fire 150-200 rounds of it through your handgun to verify they work. Ammunition, particularly defensive ammunition comes in a variety of shapes/sizes, and some brands/types do not work well with certain handguns (mainly due to feed-lip design).
There are also some combinations which simply don't work...and the issue can be very minute, but obviously important. While companies like Speer are supremely well thought of ---- always, ALWAYS verify the rounds you have work in your specific gun.
Having said that, a lot of handguns I've owned have been slightly finnicky within the first 20-50 rounds. So don't run your defensive ammo first. Let the gun warm up a little with standard ammo.
Felt a mix of both security and anxiety having a handgun in my home. A strange dichotomy of emotions perhaps. It is certainly one thing to handle and shoot at a range....and another to have it readily available.
I am sure I will get used to it, especially once I am able to get some good range time in.
Yeah, the Case head is .308. The original cartridge was based on a lengthened .50AE cartridge that was necked down. You can use the same bullets as .45-70 govt.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Lovely . But is it better than a good old fashioned 12 gauge slug? What's the muzzle velocity and effective range on those bad boys?
Depends on the round. My Nosler reloading manual lists a load for 300gr projectiles traveling ~1800 fps.
The bullets I ordered to load myself are some 350gr bullets and I found some load data that nets around 1150fps for that weight.
There is ammunition available that has some 900fps 500gr subsonic projectiles too. Grafs.com also had some solid brass bullets available as well. Lighter, only around 245-300gr, but still beastly.
I would describe this round as being a shotgun slug traveling at rifle velocities with rifle distances.
So basically a rimless 45-70 with a bit less velocity in an AR platform? Excellent. Though still not up there with a 437 grain slug doing 1600 fps, I'm sure the effective range is significantly better, not to mention improved accuracy.
Alas, right now is not the best time to be shopping for ammunition, especially anything inexpensive. It's all being gobbled up and hoarded in people's basements
TheMeanDM wrote: Damn....inexpensive but still quality 9mm Luger ammo is scarce around here and even on the net from what I am finding.
As a new gun owner, you might be tempted by steel cased ammo like Tula and Wolf. I'd like to recommend against that, generally: it's hard on your gun, and it's pretty dirty.
I'm not saying it's bad, per se - I exclusively shoot Tula in my AK - but avoid it in most other platforms.
I've seen videos of ballistic gel tests for bola rounds. All around rather unimpressive. Didn't really do what you'd want from something sold as Bola rounds.
Given their billing, you’d think a splatter flick would’ve featured such a thing!
They're just as impressive as other gimmick rounds, as in not. Stick with 00 buckshot. There's a reason it's existed as the no1 defense option for shotguns so long.
TheMeanDM wrote: Nope, Ouze, I may be new but I did do some research and learned about the perils of crappy steel ammo. Hard on guns...not always reliable....etc.
Got some Hornady 115gr XTP.
Was the cheapest stuff left at Fleet Farm ($17 per 25).
That is in adsition to the SPEER Gold Dot 124 gr FMJ Holow Point LE that I originally ordered ($55 / 50 after shipping & tax).
That will ruin somebody's day very effectively.
Freedom Munitions has pretty good prices on brass 9mm, both new and reman. I paid $83 for 500 rounds of new brass 9mm luger from them.
I too actually carry Speer Gold Dots, as above. I think they are an excellent choice. Too expensive to blast away with, but I did run a few boxes through my carry gun just to make sure it fed well (it does, of course).
Given their billing, you’d think a splatter flick would’ve featured such a thing!
They're just as impressive as other gimmick rounds, as in not. Stick with 00 buckshot. There's a reason it's existed as the no1 defense option for shotguns so long.
Some gimmick rounds are impressive, just maybe not for their price point. Those Dumbbell rounds seemed to do some nasty damage, though the difference between any type of slug in a home defense situation is mostly academic.
Given their billing, you’d think a splatter flick would’ve featured such a thing!
They're just as impressive as other gimmick rounds, as in not. Stick with 00 buckshot. There's a reason it's existed as the no1 defense option for shotguns so long.
Some gimmick rounds are impressive, just maybe not for their price point. Those Dumbbell rounds seemed to do some nasty damage, though the difference between any type of slug in a home defense situation is mostly academic.
To each their own, but like I said, good old fashioned 00 buckshot has worked just fine for a long, long time.
I’ve a question for you. And it’s ‘have you ever had to do home defence with your legally owned Dakka?’
This is not some British snooty sneery question. I’m really not going anywhere with this.
Zero agenda. Purely a question.
Answers can be either simple yay or nay. If yay, I shall not press you further, because I get there’s a very, very high chance it was traumatic.
And given potential trauma. I genuinely and sincerely apologise if I’ve set something off.
For the record, I respect your countries laws, and your subsequent decision to own firearms. And I genuinely, deeply hope you *haven’t* had to use them in anger or heat of moment.
We can buy ammo online in CA again! for the moment anyway.
I suspect that will last about as long as the "hicap" mag strikedown before a stay gets thrown out, but hopefully it'll at least last long enough to get something delivered! Glad that wasn't a thing when I still lived in CA, that'd make any range trip a giant PITA.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Folks.
I’ve a question for you. And it’s ‘have you ever had to do home defence with your legally owned Dakka?’
This is not some British snooty sneery question. I’m really not going anywhere with this.
Zero agenda. Purely a question.
Answers can be either simple yay or nay. If yay, I shall not press you further, because I get there’s a very, very high chance it was traumatic.
And given potential trauma. I genuinely and sincerely apologise if I’ve set something off.
For the record, I respect your countries laws, and your subsequent decision to own firearms. And I genuinely, deeply hope you *haven’t* had to use them in anger or heat of moment.
For myself personally, I have not ever had to, and am thankful I have not. In general, something happening at home isn't something I really worry about given the nature of my life and where I live (and a knife is honestly far more likely to be both at hand and handy within my tiny apartment), most of my legally owned dakka is purely for fun/historical interest, and the one gun I actually bought specifically for self defense (a compact revolver) is for being oot and aboot, not really at home.
At home, no I have not. I did have to draw on a guy once, but never fired. I was carrying my store's daily deposit, alone, at night, long after the area was dark and everyone else had left. This wasn't a residential neighborhood (except for one single shack), so when I saw a stranger making a beeline strait towards me it was a dead giveaway what was about to happen.
My parents have in the early 1970's. They built one of the first new homes in their part of the city. At the time there was only one elderly couple across the street and half-built houses for blocks. A guy kept waiting until my dad left for work and tried kicking the door in. Luckily my mother was armed. Also, feral dogs roamed at the time and were a major danger to ANYONE. There were about a dozen of them and would attack even small groups of adult men. My dad popped one in the front yard with his revolver, and the cops turned a blind eye when he sniped a few of them with his rifle.
We live on 40 acres in a rural area. There is a big iron gate at the road and then you have a 1/4 mile hike up the driveway to get to the house. Gate is closed/locked unless I have someone coming over (I don't share the combination with many folks.)
One night about a year and a half ago daughter was out feeding animals after dark (we have horses/goats/chickens and other critters). She texted me to say she saw what appeared to be someone with a flashlight over by where we park our cars.
Yes, I had a gun with me when I went to check it out.
May years ago,when the US still had bases in Panama, we lived on post. I did not have any guns in the house. It was difficult to bring them into Panama and we were not allowed to have them in our quarters, we were supposed to keep them in a unit arms room, so when we moved there I left them all at my Dad's house in Texas.
One morning (like 0200 in the morning) some dudes tried to break in. I confronted them with a machete because it was all I had. I would MUCH have preferred a gun. Had a few other incidents while living there which being armed would have been a good thing.
A few years ago when we lived by Ft Bragg, my Wife, Daughter and I went on post for something one evening. You can't bring a gun on post so I was unarmed. On the way home, again in a rural area, some dude tried to run us off the road. He pulled in front of us and stopped, forcing us to stop, came out of his car and rushed my truck, trying to beat on the window/kick the door. I pulled around his car and wife called the police on her cell phone. Guy was chasing us, repeatedly trying to run us off the road. I did not want to drive to the house because I did not want the gak bird to know where I lived. Trying to get a cop to meet us proved impossible. In over 20 minutes of being chased we could not get a cop. Granted, we did cross a county line but wife was trying to get the dispatcher she was talking to to tell us where to drive to meet up with some law enforcement. We finally lost the guy, took a 'surveillance detection' route home to make sure I was not followed, and met with a cop who drove to our house to take a report over an hour later.
I very much wish I had been armed during that nightmare. With my wife and daughter in the vehicle, not being able to protect them very much bothered me.
Fortunate enough to say I haven't in my personal life had to draw a firearm. Obviously I did on several occasions while on duty but was fortunate enough to never need to engage someone properly.
I've received a phone call from my brother though who was at my folks house when a neighbor's kid decided to host a high school party. While my folks live in a nice neighborhood, the usual high school thing happened. Friends inviting friends inviting friends...and one thing led to another and some dirt bags showed up, and gunshots were fired. In an above-average suburban subdivision. This led to kids running all over the place, through my folks yard and some of the thugs driving over peoples yards to escape the police when they responded. It was an eye-opener for my folks and my brother - namely because the SAME THING happened a few months later. Same kid...same high school crowd, more gunshots.
No matter where you live, stupid can swing by for a visit. My folks' house was not struck by any rounds, but it brought home the reality that the potential need to defend yourself can happen anywhere.
In my previous line of work, in our state, the cartels operated with great frequency. Shootouts on the highway were common, and the local shopping mall had the highest vehicle theft rate in the entire country (because of its size and access to a highway leading to the Mexican border). Several fellow agents had vehicles stolen, luckily not at gunpoint. If you own a truck or van and live in the Phoenix area...there's a shockingly high chance you're going to have that vehicle stolen. My buddy's first on-duty shooting was a result of such a theft.
Because of the cartels operations, which included "false" police units, it was not uncommon for us to be heavily armed even when at home. The various cartels battling for the smuggling routes there would raid each other's stash houses with fake police vehicles and everyone dressed up in Phoenix or Tucson SWAT gear and uniforms, etc. Fortunately this is all bad news, so it was rarely ever published or talked about, but suffice to say it was uncomfortable knowing how freely the cartels operated in these major cities. Even as a non-agent, I'd be damn sure to be armed/protected whenever possible.
So, fortunately my personal experience has never required drawing/engaging with a firearm; but my life experiences have shown me the utility and need for self defense.
I’ve a question for you. And it’s ‘have you ever had to do home defence with your legally owned Dakka?’
Many years ago, but yes. My parents house has a police response time of about 30 min to an hour, a fact that has led to several groups of organized robbers forming over the years in their area. Some of whom have been surprisingly, and illegally in some cases, well armed.
I have a similar problem. Where I live, there is not a local police department, we are at the mercy of the county sheriff - and the response time is about 30 minutes, usually. If anything ever goes down where I live, i am on my own until it is long over.
I have never fired a shot in anger and I hope I never have to, just as I hope to never need the fire extinguisher in my kitchen.
Ouze wrote: I have a similar problem. Where I live, there is not a local police department, we are at the mercy of the county sheriff - and the response time is about 30 minutes, usually. If anything ever goes down where I live, i am on my own until it is long over.
I have never fired a shot in anger and I hope I never have to, just as I hope to never need the fire extinguisher in my kitchen.
See, you HAVE a sheriff. We have to wait on the state police to drive from their nearest barracks.
I have an HK91 and an HK93. I love these things, and I've always wanted to get an MP5 to complete the set. However, those things are EXPENSIVE.
I think I may have decided on an alternative. The Stibog SR9 A3. The newest version of this gun is a 9mm roller-delayed action, so very similar to an MP5. Also, the previous two versions could be had for under $700, so that's not too shabby.
Great reliability and accuracy, good reviews, easy to disassemble, tough as nails. There's even an aftermarket lower that will allow you to use AR grips and trigger groups, and will allow you to use Glock mags.
The Stribog's are pretty sweet, I've been waiting for the A3 to drop as well (though it's likely going to be more expensive, closer to 1k from what I've heard) and am strongly considering getting one.
The HK SP5 out right now is pretty sweet, but is 3-4x the price of the current Stribogs. I've considered a POF MP5 as they're about a grand cheaper, but even those aren't cheap or super common.
For those of you that have done it (United States) how much of a pain in the butt was it to make a short-barreled rifle?
As previously stated I want to get a Stribog, but if I get it, I may as well get it EXACTLY in the configuration I want, which includes a collapsible stock and vertical foregrip.
How long did it take? How much Federal Anal Probing took place? Was the time, effort, and money worth it in your opinion?
I have SBR'd an AR, and also done a suppressor. Vaktathi, IIRC, has done a lot more than that. The process is fundamentally the same but I went about it differently each time.
For the SBR, I already had an AR. I sent my stripped lower off to have it engraved with my name\address etc, which was a pain in the ass (Capital Armory does a good job with this). I filled out the forms, included a check for $200, and attached photos that I took myself on my cell phone and picked up at Walgreens - I've heard people say they need to be passport photos but mine were literally selfies I took in my hallway against a plain background.
The biggest pain in the ass was going to the county jail to get fingerprinted. It was free IIRC but it was a pain in the ass and a depressing experience. Keep in mind that I am an edge case: Where I live there is no local police department. If I had lived 10 miles in either direction, I could have just popped down to my local cop shop and asked them to do it.
I sent it in 9/3/17, the check was cashed by the ATF 9/14/17, and my stamp arrived 4/17/18 - so about 6 months total. About 3 weeks were added to that process because I forgot to sign a form in one place and they had to mail it back to me (oops), but the application didn't go back to the front of the line, which is nice.
--
For the suppressor, I went a different way: I bought the suppressor and "bought my stamp" for $200 from SilencerShop - they handle the paperwork for you and then transfer the stamp. After the purchase, I went to Walker, Iowa and used a kiosk they have. The kiosk thing takes your photo, takes the fingerprints, and uploads them to Silencershop.
The process was smoother, although Walker is about 90 minutes away. One perk is that the actual suppressor came in almost immediately, and the dude let me shoot it while I waited for the stamp to clear. I bought the suppressor 9/21/17, got the stamp and the suppressor 5/2/18. So about 8 months, but no hiccups this time.
--
Was it worth it? Honestly, hard to say. I also own two AR pistols and there is not any significant difference between the AR pistols and the SBR (which is 300BLK) in terms of handling. It is kind of neat being able to put a VFG on the SBR, which you cannot do on the pistol. I have really short arms, so I do like the VFG since it gives me a good repeatable place to put my left hand - I can't do the magwell hold, it doesn't feel right for me.
But all in all, it's not a huge difference between having an actual SBR and having a decent brace. I bought a Scorpion EVO S2 Micro with a brace and it could be SBRd but after shooting it... I don't really feel any inclination. It shoots and handles great.
Spoiler:
I desperately need to replace the optics on the 5.56 striped pistol with an eotech or something. It's funny, when it came to the building the rifle - nickel boron BCG, excellent Ballistic Advantage barrel, Geiselle SSA-E, spare no expense. Then when it comes to optics, "can the treasury bear such expense?" I have no idea why I am like this.
Ouze covered everything pretty well (and those blasters are *purdy*). The worst part is the wait and getting fingerprinted.
I'm fortunate enough to have an engraving place about mile down the road from me so that made that part super easy. I haven't filed NFA paperwork in a little over a year, but last couple times I did, wait times for E-file Form 1's (making) were under a month (I got one of mine back in like two weeks), but I'm not sure if that's different now. Paper forms of all types are more 6-8 months, and there is no E-File option for a Form 4 (transfer).
Grey Templar wrote: So like what happens if you move and you have NFA items? You gotta get them reengraved with your new address and send them a change of address?
Nah, nothing like that. Essentially if you take a gun that's not an NFA item, and "make" it one on a Form 1, you are "re-manufacturing" it, legally speaking, and thus as you are now the manufacturer, you are obligated to put your name (or business name)/city/state on it (though you don't need an exact street address or the like) just as the original manufacturer had to. Kind of a silly requirement, an artifact of looooooooooong obsolete legislation that I don't think was ever really intended to function that way but nobody decided to clean up laws.
There is paperwork however. If you move within a state, you're technically not obligated to do anything. If you want to take the NFA item outside your state of residence for any reason however, be it permanent or temporary (like for a competition, or to use a range across state lines), you have to file a form 5320.20 with the ATF for permission, telling them when/where/how long, and receive their approval *prior* to taking the NFA item out of state, and this usually takes 2-4 weeks. IIRC you can move suppressors and AOW's without this requirement applying, but everyone I've talked to about it strongly recommends it anyway.
If you want to be really cheeky, I believe you can file a 5320.20 in December, give the timeline of Jan1-Dec31 for the next year, and list all states where that NFA item may be legal, and then not worry about it until the next year and just repeat that every year if you travel a lot with such items, but I've never tried that myself.
Ouze wrote: I have SBR'd an AR, and also done a suppressor. Vaktathi, IIRC, has done a lot more than that. The process is fundamentally the same but I went about it differently each time.
For the SBR, I already had an AR. I sent my stripped lower off to have it engraved with my name\address etc, which was a pain in the ass (Capital Armory does a good job with this). I filled out the forms, included a check for $200, and attached photos that I took myself on my cell phone and picked up at Walgreens - I've heard people say they need to be passport photos but mine were literally selfies I took in my hallway against a plain background.
The biggest pain in the ass was going to the county jail to get fingerprinted. It was free IIRC but it was a pain in the ass and a depressing experience. Keep in mind that I am an edge case: Where I live there is no local police department. If I had lived 10 miles in either direction, I could have just popped down to my local cop shop and asked them to do it.
I sent it in 9/3/17, the check was cashed by the ATF 9/14/17, and my stamp arrived 4/17/18 - so about 6 months total. About 3 weeks were added to that process because I forgot to sign a form in one place and they had to mail it back to me (oops), but the application didn't go back to the front of the line, which is nice.
--
For the suppressor, I went a different way: I bought the suppressor and "bought my stamp" for $200 from SilencerShop - they handle the paperwork for you and then transfer the stamp. After the purchase, I went to Walker, Iowa and used a kiosk they have. The kiosk thing takes your photo, takes the fingerprints, and uploads them to Silencershop.
The process was smoother, although Walker is about 90 minutes away. One perk is that the actual suppressor came in almost immediately, and the dude let me shoot it while I waited for the stamp to clear. I bought the suppressor 9/21/17, got the stamp and the suppressor 5/2/18. So about 8 months, but no hiccups this time.
--
Was it worth it? Honestly, hard to say. I also own two AR pistols and there is not any significant difference between the AR pistols and the SBR (which is 300BLK) in terms of handling. It is kind of neat being able to put a VFG on the SBR, which you cannot do on the pistol. I have really short arms, so I do like the VFG since it gives me a good repeatable place to put my left hand - I can't do the magwell hold, it doesn't feel right for me.
But all in all, it's not a huge difference between having an actual SBR and having a decent brace. I bought a Scorpion EVO S2 Micro with a brace and it could be SBRd but after shooting it... I don't really feel any inclination. It shoots and handles great.
Spoiler:
I desperately need to replace the optics on the 5.56 striped pistol with an eotech or something. It's funny, when it came to the building the rifle - nickel boron BCG, excellent Ballistic Advantage barrel, Geiselle SSA-E, spare no expense. Then when it comes to optics, "can the treasury bear such expense?" I have no idea why I am like this.
After thinking about it, the Stribog is "only" a 9mm. If it was a more substantial round there would likely be more of a difference between a real stock and a "pistol brace" used as a stock. Also, the mag well is contoured and textured to be used as a grip, so if I put an angled foregrip on it too I'd likely be sitting pretty. Not perfectly what I was envisioning, but I don't know if I want to pump hundreds of dollars into a $700 gun.
If it helps any, the A3 is expected to be a couple hundred bucks more than the direct blowback versions
That said, my Scorpion was $800, and over time I probably spent another $800 on mags, optic, carry case, SBR tax, VFG, and 922r parts and Stock kit, and I have zero regrets, though part of that was also specifically because I wanted a semi-auto clone of the original SMG specifically for cool factor/looks. You can also just grab a Stribog pistol and convert it over time, wouldn't have to spiffy it all up right away, but there is a fair point to be made that it'd probably be pretty functional as is.
Living in Germany my only Home-Defense are unfortunately my two fists and everything commonly found in a Household. But I am fine with that, at least the guys entering will rarely cary guns themselves so it is Kind of fair
Liste wrote: Living in Germany my only Home-Defense are unfortunately my two fists and everything commonly found in a Household. But I am fine with that, at least the guys entering will rarely cary guns themselves so it is Kind of fair
I kinda feel sorry for anybody who is forced to "play fair" when it comes to defending themselves. It shouldn't be fair. The homeowner should always have overwhelming firepower to defend themselves.
Anyway. Finally got all the stuff to load some .458 SOCOM.
Round on the left is a 300grain TTSX copper hollow point with a ballistic tip. The round on the right is a 325grain Xtreme Defense solid copper projectile. 7.62 and 5.56 show for comparison. Hopefully the range will open back up soon so I can do some test shooting.
Vaktathi wrote: If you want to be really cheeky, I believe you can file a 5320.20 in December, give the timeline of Jan1-Dec31 for the next year, and list all states where that NFA item may be legal, and then not worry about it until the next year and just repeat that every year if you travel a lot with such items, but I've never tried that myself.
"Hello sir, I'd like to inform ATF that at some point within the year of 2021, I may be moving a NFA restricted item somewhere within the continental United States."
This is the epitome of modern problems, modern solutions XD
In the 'Firearms you own and their uses': I used my Judge to cap a copperhead this morning. Damned thing was about 5 feet out the door we use. I almost stepped on it before I saw it. Kept an eye on it while wife went back in and got the Judge for me.
Not gonna risk a bite to one of the dogs or one of the family. If it had been out b the pond or in the woods he could've stayed around. In the fenced in area, anything poisonous has to go.
Nice choices Grey Templar. I carry the Xtreme Penetrators and Defenders from Underwood Ammo in my Glock 29. You should be able to get some excellent results from hand loads in that SOCOM. Can't wait to hear about your results.
Vaktathi wrote: Those are some impressive pills, that 325 grain especially. How expensive is that ammo?
Those ones are $1.09 per bullet. The TTSX are $1.02 each, so only slightly cheaper.
I did get the more expensive options. There are choices as low as $.60 per bullet, but most of them are lead and I need lead free for hunting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Nice choices Grey Templar. I carry the Xtreme Penetrators and Defenders from Underwood Ammo in my Glock 29. You should be able to get some excellent results from hand loads in that SOCOM. Can't wait to hear about your results.
I have some handloaded Xtreme penetrators for my .40 too. Hoping to get a chronograph as well before I go out and do some testing.
With meat prices set to skyrocket in the US it is expected that hunting and fishing licenses will skyrocket, as it is a cheap way to put meat on the table. I've thought about this myself. My kids love to fish, and want me to take them much more often. I'm usually catch and release, but getting a dinner's worth of fish per week would be worth it. As for the hunting part, I'm a bit torn. Nothing really of worth is in season at the moment, and I'm not going to poach. I also don't think my wife would be amused if I brought home a racoon for dinner. Until deer or pheasant season opens I think the only real game out there is rabbit. 22LR should be fine for that, but I'd also like an excuse to try to hunt with a 9mm or .40S&W carbine, just for the giggles.
Grey Templar wrote: Hogs are always in season. Most states don’t have limits and some don’t even require a hunting liscence.
I live in a rather weird part of the world. While we technically have feral pigs once in a while, but they are very uncommon. Actual boar are mythological creatures here. It's definitely on my "to do" list at some point though. As a side note we also have almost no dangerous predators (Coyotes are the exception, along with the odd mountain lion spotting every couple years), and almost no poisonous snakes (extremely rare timber rattler). Outdoors is basically bubble wrapped for kids.
Also, when it comes to hunting I only ever kill for eating or for pest control. If I ever go on "American Safari" I'd like to focus on eradicating invasive species. I'd love to hunt a python in the Everglades, giant 30-pound Ugandan Pack rats in the Florida Keys, Giant lizards (once again Florida), and trap shooting Asian Carp.
Hogs are definitely in the Pest Control category. The damn things are a freaking menace. Millions of $ in damages each year. Frankly, every state should be like Texas when it comes to hogs. No license required and no limits on means or method of harvest.
That is the case in Iowa as well - there are no tags or limits for feral hogs, and hunters of any kind, regardless of what they are after, are urged to kill feral hogs on sight by the Iowa DNR.
As Cuda said, they are pretty rare here in reality. I personally would be pretty hesitant to eat wild boar here, I would worry about disease.
Yeah, hogs are nuisance animals in most states where they're present.
I had a run in with a pack of javelinas (smaller, feral style hogs) in an abandoned building once in the desert. Luckily they just grunted and I didn't get charged.
My brother in Oklahoma has a friend that inherited some old "family property" out in the sticks. From what my brother told me it used to be a homestead, but no one has lived on it since the 1960's and it has long since overgrown.
His friend keep inviting him out to hunt both feral hogs and feral dogs, both of which are apparently pretty aggressive and numerous. I don't know if that sounds fun or terrifying.
I had a professor once who dealt with a lot of hog related trauma (or mroe likely, feral pigs in the paupau new guinea style) and his comment was (and he was the surgeon for the tribals who hunted pigs with spears, back in the day) "boy, hogs sure know exactly where to gore a man, maybe cause their tusks and your genitals are on the same level, I mean, it was awful." He also did a lot of emergency medical care for tribal women who at that point in history still often cooked over open fires while wearing skirts made of dried, woven grass. So there were some nasty genital burns there, which apparently rivaled the damage the little porkers did to their mates. I am not making this up. Your friends should have a healthy respect for hogs and wild pigs.
I think that if I were to ever actually hunt hogs I'd either opt for a tree stand or shooting them from 150 yards away with a well scoped rifle. Using a shotgun in heavy brush (what my brother's friend likes to do) sounds like a death wish, especial since the nearest hospital would be a long way off.
cuda1179 wrote: My brother in Oklahoma has a friend that inherited some old "family property" out in the sticks. From what my brother told me it used to be a homestead, but no one has lived on it since the 1960's and it has long since overgrown.
His friend keep inviting him out to hunt both feral hogs and feral dogs, both of which are apparently pretty aggressive and numerous. I don't know if that sounds fun or terrifying.
A bit of both. The only kind of hunting you'd want to do with an actual semi-auto carbine in place of a simple hunting gun. A magazine fed carbine would definitely be the way to go. Hogs can often shrug off a number of shots, particularly from the front.
Indeed- apparently they are mad enough that after being stabbed with a spear, can impale themselves up a 6-8 foot spearshaft and still have enough energy to gore the hunter.
Funnily enough. The only weapons which are explicitly banned for hunting in CA are spears and knives. I mean, yeah, that is super dangerous. But IMO if you got the testicular fortitude to go after something with a spear or knife I'm not gonna stop you.
Don't mess around with wild hogs/boars. There's a bit more truth to the '30-50 feral hogs' meme than people think; they rarely kill people but they can cause some nasty injuries to hunters.
I mean... fair's fair when you're trying to kill them, but I'd suggest an intermediate-caliber semi-auto at the very minimum. And more practically, you would have to pay me a lot of money to risk eating one (they are parasite magnets), and considering I spent a couple of years living off East African game, that's saying something. Hunt them because they're invasive pests as needed, but I wouldn't count on getting a meal out of it unless you're really feeling adventurous.
Grey Templar wrote: Funnily enough. The only weapons which are explicitly banned for hunting in CA are spears and knives. I mean, yeah, that is super dangerous. But IMO if you got the testicular fortitude to go after something with a spear or knife I'm not gonna stop you.
Not a fan of trophy hunting, personally, but I know a guy who does bear hunting with dogs and a knife. Apparently it's reasonably popular here in Virginia.
cuda1179 wrote: For those of you that have done it (United States) how much of a pain in the butt was it to make a short-barreled rifle?
As previously stated I want to get a Stribog, but if I get it, I may as well get it EXACTLY in the configuration I want, which includes a collapsible stock and vertical foregrip.
How long did it take? How much Federal Anal Probing took place? Was the time, effort, and money worth it in your opinion?
I have Stamped SBRs, but I build most everything as a pistol from the ground up these days. Mostly on account of not needing a permission slip when traveling with it. Not going to lie, SBR stribog looks fun. Don't forget about angled foregrips which are kosher on a pistol whereas verticals are not.
Here's a pistol version someone did:
That's pretty nice. I like the Stribog, but I'm waiting for the supposedly roller-delayed A3 coming out this summer.
I SBR'd my Uzi- it wasn't too much of a hassle, and I hear the wait has dropped a lot since I did it (took almost a full year), but the engraving requirements and general process are still a pain so I am totally onboard with pistol braces instead and would highly recommend it for anyone who isn't dead-set on a particular look.
It really is all the extra rigamarole with engraving, paper work, letters, etc. I keep thinking about converting a Scorpion with binary trigger to an SBR, but I just get lazy about it. Eventually I'll get around to getting an Octane 9k suppressor on it... but I've got another 100 guardsmen to buy and paint this year, so there's that.
Pistols. When it comes to Revolvers and Magazine fed (semi-auto? No, don’t laugh. I really am this clueless), what are the pros and cons?
I ask because I mostly come across guns via TV and Films, which typically have no basis in reality.
Are they much of a muchness when compared across different measures (accuracy, rate of fire, ease of reload, reliability, ease of maintenance etc), or is just personal preference?
Pistols. When it comes to Revolvers and Magazine fed (semi-auto? No, don’t laugh. I really am this clueless), what are the pros and cons?
I ask because I mostly come across guns via TV and Films, which typically have no basis in reality.
Are they much of a muchness when compared across different measures (accuracy, rate of fire, ease of reload, reliability, ease of maintenance etc), or is just personal preference?
A revolver is a much simpler device, it will be less likely to have mechanical problems, it's almost impossible to get a jam, and they can be relatively easily scaled up to truly insanely huge cartridges. However, you can damage the crane (if it has one, most any modern one will, but many *really* old ones may not) by flipping the cylinder in or out as is often seen in movies, and timing (how the cylinder cycles and aligns to the bore) can be lost over time due to excessive wear or due to damage. Revolvers also typically have a lower capacity, usually 5/6/7 rounds, and take more time to load/reload.
A typical semiauto will usually (unless it's a small compact model or something ancient like a .45 1911) have a larger magazine capacity, most any duty sized weapon will typically have 15-20 rounds and some can have humongous magazines of 30+ rounds or even drums (though that's a wee bit silly on a handgun), and be much faster to reload. Semiautos can also usually be fired faster by most people as you're not fighting a double action pull every time (resetting the hammer) or trying to cock a hammer manually for each shot, though there are people who can get stupid fast with certain revolvers. In general, at least in my experience, semiautos are also a bit easier to keep on target for followup shots and rapid fire, as the bore axis is typically lower leading to less muzzle flip. However, semiautos will encounter mechanical difficulty more easily, can be pickier on ammo, jam more, and can't be made in stupid huge cartridges because accommodating recoil will quickly turn them into rifles.
EDIT: most of the above is broadly generalized, exceptions apply.
Magazine fed handguns tend to have more ready ammo (my Glock 26 for concealed carry has 10 round magazines, similarly sized revolvers tend to be 5 shot). They also tend to reload faster (even if you have speed loaders for the revolver).
Reliability I would say is more based on model and user maintenance, and ammo choice. Some revolvers are not as reliable as some automatics, and vice versa. Most modern handguns are pretty reliable if you use the recommended ammo and maintenance routines.
Handgun accuracy has many factors. Trigger pull, distance between rear and front sight post (longer better) and training. Some models of handgun are known to be more accurate than others, often due to smoothness of trigger pull coupled with tight manufacturing tolerances. My opinion is training with your particular handgun is the biggest factor at the distances most folks are going to need it.
In terms of cleaning and maintenance, what’s your take on it?
I’m aware that guns need cleaning to stay in tip-top condition, as does pretty much anything we use (I give my PS4 a vacuum now and again to keep the vents clear), but is it something you must do after a day on the range, or simply reccomended?
Eh, most modern design firearms don't actually need as much cleaning as many think they do if you're using modern ammunition. Black powder and anything using corrosive primers needs to be cleaned quickly and thoroughly (even if it's just with water in the case of corrosive primers), but I know people who have literally never cleaned their Glock or AR or AK and put many thousands of rounds through them without issue. That said, I would still advocate routine cleaning, but too much cleaning can also cause excessive wear in and of itself. Mostly it's going to depend on the type of firearm and what you're putting through it and using it for and what type of finish the gun has and the environment you live in (e.g. if you live in an oceanfront apartment you'll want to clean and oil everything pretty routinely, but if you live in a dry arid desert you probably don't need to care as much). I'll usually clean my carry revolver relatively frequently every couple months and after any range trip, if for no other reason than it's exposed to a lot of body sweat, lint, etc, and I clean my PX4 semiauto handgun after every range trip, while some other guns I honestly have a hard time remembering the last time I cleaned them.
My typical go-to is cleaning kit G96 CLP, a boresnake, a toothbrush, and if necessary a chamber brush.
Gun cleaning can be its own rabbit hole and everyone will have their own opinion, rituals, and requirements.
I always clean after going to the range. Strictly speaking, properly made firearms that aren't using corrosive ammunition don't NEED to be cleaned every time they are fired. You can get away with many hundreds or even thousands of rounds before you'd have mechanical failure due to it needing to be cleaned. The main reason you want to clean them every time they are used is to prevent rust. You take the gun out, they probably got some sweat or other moisture on them, which can lead to rust that over even a short time can eat into the metal. By not cleaning your gun you are rolling the dice on how much moisture exposure the firearm received. If you clean it you know you've gotten rid of any potential issue.
If you are using corrosive ammo(usually very very old surplus ammunition) it leaves behind nasty salts which attract moisture and accelerate rusting. If you use any of that you absolutely should clean every time. It wouldn't kill the firearm immediately, but it could lead to long term damage.
Really its just a protection of your investment to clean the firearm each time. I also just check my guns once a month even if I haven't done anything with them.
Each time I go hunting I also clean the weapon I took. That is a necessity because you'll definitely get sweat on it, and that stuff will have rust starting to form up even by the end of the day. Seriously, salt+water = instant rust.
As Vakthi says. Most modern firearms don't really NEED cleaning. Its just a good idea. Its the difference between a firearm that will stay functional for a hundred years or one that will last till the metaphorical end of time.
To labour the point, I know nowt about real world guns, so my brain is thinking Hellfire shells!
Old primers (the part of the cartridge that the firing pin hits to cause sparks and initiates the powder conflagration inside the cartridge) often contained mineral salts that would do nasty stuff to metal if given time, pretty much just like salt water will for exactly the same reasons. Today you really only have to worry about this with decades old military surplus ammo.
Ahhh! Pitting and that? Nasties in the blowback which can corrode the paint job, exposing the steel underneath?
If I’m right, just goes to show I’m quick on the uptake
And seriously, thank you to everyone who has entertained my enthusiastic NooB questions. One day I’ll visit a US state that allows visitors to shoot a gun, and I’ll dedicate a round to each of you! In a good way.
Yes. Certain primers basically leave behind potassium chloride or sodium cholride (table salt) and that leads to rust etc.
There's two major primer types, berdan, and boxer. Boxer is pretty much all non-corosive. Berdan could be either depending on vintage/manufacture. When shopping for surplus ammo, which is where you'll run into corrosive primers most, check carefully, and when firing berdan primed ammunition, it's good to do a few swipes with a cleaning cloth through the bore after
Yup, if you don't clean 'em, the corrosive primers will cause rust, pitting, etc within the chamber and barrel, eroding accuracy and in extreme cases weakening the metal enough to potentially make them unsafe to fire, though you have to be really trying to get them to that point
Next question? What does concealed carry being legal mean, compared to being illegal?
Again this is Idiot Media Filter in play.
I get what concealed carry means. Or at least I think I do. You can carry a gun in a body holster, or for the risky, shoved down your Y-Fronts. In essence, it’s legal to carry a gun without someone knowing your packing heat.
But in States where it’s illegal? Does that mean you cannot carry a gun at all, or just that it has to visibly carried or holstered? Or does it it depend?
I hope it’s ‘it depends’. Because that’s my favourite answer, every time!
Next question? What does concealed carry being legal mean, compared to being illegal?
Again this is Idiot Media Filter in play.
I get what concealed carry means. Or at least I think I do. You can carry a gun in a body holster, or for the risky, shoved down your Y-Fronts. In essence, it’s legal to carry a gun without someone knowing your packing heat.
But in States where it’s illegal? Does that mean you cannot carry a gun at all, or just that it has to visibly carried or holstered? Or does it it depend?
I hope it’s ‘it depends’. Because that’s my favourite answer, every time!
It depends a lot based on state specific laws. In some places like Arizona, there is no regulation of conceal carry for non-prohibited possessors, except some areas where the weapon can not be carried without a permit. Other states it's completely forbidden. Some places have different descriptions of what concealed means, either completely unobservable, or maybe just covered a bit. It can be quite capricious really.
In Alabama, you have a "right to keep and bear arms", but that is left to open carry, and concealed carry requires a permit. Despite this for quite a while law enforcement was getting on people because a law said OC was ok but not on property you don't control. Attorney general said "You can't make both open and concealed carry illegal", and thankfully the legislature clarified. Mind you you still can't have a pistol in a vehicle even if it's displayed openly without a permit, even though this also flies in the face of "you can't ban both open and concealed". It can be a nightmare comparing state to state.
Frankly I think the Arizona model is best, with non-prohibited possessors being able to conceal carry without a permit. Bad guys are going to carry no matter what the law says, and carrying concealed makes it less likely someone is going to be targeted by a bad guy who see's their gun, and it's just more polite to have it stashed rather than hanging out.
Next question? What does concealed carry being legal mean, compared to being illegal?
Again this is Idiot Media Filter in play.
I get what concealed carry means. Or at least I think I do. You can carry a gun in a body holster, or for the risky, shoved down your Y-Fronts. In essence, it’s legal to carry a gun without someone knowing your packing heat.
Correct.
But in States where it’s illegal? Does that mean you cannot carry a gun at all, or just that it has to visibly carried or holstered? Or does it it depend?
I hope it’s ‘it depends’. Because that’s my favourite answer, every time!
Yup, as RegularGuy noted, it varies quite a bit by state. In some states you can carry anything anywhere open or concealed without any sort of paperwork or license, in others you can only carry concealed and only with a permit that's issued on a "may issue" basis that's entirely up to the discretion/whim of the issuing authority (usually local sheriffs office) and may be functionally impossible to get, don't expect to get a CHL in Los Angeles for example. Where I live, essentially you can open carry anywhere, but need a license to carry concealed, and local city governments can (and usually do) restrict open carry but a state issued CHL overrides it and they are issued as long as you aren't legally prohibited from owning a firearm. Some states have varying levels of reciprocity with other states permits and licenses and/or may issue to residents from other states, and training requirements vary wildly as well.
Yeah. It basically depends on where you are. There are pending court cases which will likely make it to the supreme court, and most likely(hopefully) make Open Carry legal in the entire country with no permit. Though we are probably 5ish years away on Young vs Hawaii getting to the Supreme court.
As someone in the U.K., I feel like universal Concealed Carry might be safer?
For a start, it means no tosspot can just make a grab for my shooter, as they (in theory) won’t know if I’ve got one.
And equally, anyone looking to do an old fashioned Hold Up would have no way of knowing whether or not they might be shortly and thoroughly outgunned?
I get there’s shades of gray in between. But the first point is my main concern. In terms of tracing a given gunman, good luck if the only time they laid hands on the shooter was to pinch off someone else.
Concealed is definitely preferable. But in so many states, like CA, its basically impossible to get a CCW permit in addition to open carry being prohibited(hence the lawsuits). You either have to be a celebrity, judge, cop, or have active death threats to get past the "Good cause" requirement. And even then its down to if the local sheriff is ok with it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As someone in the U.K., I feel like universal Concealed Carry might be safer?
For a start, it means no tosspot can just make a grab for my shooter, as they (in theory) won’t know if I’ve got one.
And equally, anyone looking to do an old fashioned Hold Up would have no way of knowing whether or not they might be shortly and thoroughly outgunned?
I get there’s shades of gray in between. But the first point is my main concern. In terms of tracing a given gunman, good luck if the only time they laid hands on the shooter was to pinch off someone else.
To slice the topic up a bit, I'm of the opinion concealed carry as one goes about in a city is generally preferable, but I think flexibility in carry options is important. In terms of down sides, it is actually exceedingly rare or unheard of that someone is targeted because they OC, but there can be a lot of reasons for that. For sure when one open carries, they need to be very aware if the world around them, who is close to them, are the people around them trustworthy and peacable. For dense areas with lots of people in close proximity, say a line at a fast food resturant at lunch, is nit a good place for maintaining that awarenenss and protection of the weapon. But even that is conditional. In some communities so many of the population are of a high enough level of trust and good character that it would be fine, where in other communities it would be hazardous. It depends on a lot of factors.
A lot of people when they see a gun, particularly if their only exposures to guns are from hollywood, direct tragedy, or rhetorical anecdotes that focus only on the social costs of an armed populace and not benefits, these people can feel anxiety and disfomfort. At the very least it can be a visible reminder that its a rough world out there and people may not want to be reminded. On the other hand, seeing good folks carrying can be a normal sight no one thinks twice about as was the case where I grew up. It may be a reminder in the US that people have such a right, and that such arms can be carried responsibly, dispelling myths and stigma (If done well). That's an enculturation issue more than anything else, but one that people who would open carry must think about.
Its hard to deny that open carry offers the fasted and least complicated draw. Concealed carry adds a layer to weapon presentation that can add more time, and potential complications to weapon presentation. Training can help with this, but the roll of the dice could cause something to get caught on clothes, fumbles, etc. while defeating the extra layer of concealment. The sad fact of gun use is that when it is time to use one, it usually needs to be used in the fastest way possible. Consider the church shooting in texas a few months back where a guy pulled out a (illegally carried) shotgun and threatened a parishoner. A guy near them in a pew went for his concealed gun, but had to fumble with his shirt to get it, drawing the attention of the gunman, who then started shooting and nailed the guy he was harrassing and the guy trying to draw his gun. Someone else then efficiently drew and headshot the gunman as he was heading for the pastor. Whe can only wonder, would the gunman have attacked the man trying to get his gun first if he was open carrying? If people often open carried, would the guy have brought a shotgun at all knowing it was highly likely he would get hit by several defenders? (No less than 5 guns from different parishoners came out after the first shot)? Had the first defender had a less complicated or more experienced draw, could he have shut down the gunman before he ever fired a shot? No way to know.
Open vs. conceled is a tradeoff the answer of which constantly varies based on these and other factors. I think concealed carry is generally preferable for some of the reasons above (which makes it frustrating that it is so tightly controlled for non-prohiilbited possessors, and those controls having no power over bad actors), but I like that the people have the freedom to judge and adjust their carry mode as situations and circumstances dictate.
Pistols. When it comes to Revolvers and Magazine fed (semi-auto? No, don’t laugh. I really am this clueless), what are the pros and cons?
I ask because I mostly come across guns via TV and Films, which typically have no basis in reality.
Are they much of a muchness when compared across different measures (accuracy, rate of fire, ease of reload, reliability, ease of maintenance etc), or is just personal preference?
You've gotten some good answers already but I want to chime in a little bit.
-Revolvers have, almost universally, heavy and long double-action trigger pulls (double-action meaning the trigger has to cock the hammer, then release it). This can make shooting accurately more difficult without extensive training. Most revolvers can be manually cocked with your thumb, turning the trigger pull into a lighter and shorter single-action pull (it's just releasing the hammer), but that is the kind of thing you would do for target shooting and not in a combat or otherwise stressful situation. So, in general, semi-autos tend to have better triggers than revolvers, which makes them easier to shoot accurately. That's not universal as there are plenty of semi-autos out there that have similarly long and heavy pulls, especially police handguns where the department doesn't trust the competence of their officers and mandates a heavy trigger pull to reduce negligent discharges (see: New York City).
-Tying in with the above, the overwhelming majority of revolvers do not use external safeties. The heavy trigger pull makes it very, very difficult to accidentally pull the trigger, so you can safely carry a loaded revolver, then draw and immediately fire. In contrast, with semi-autos there are various schemes for ensuring safety and lots of debate back and forth; some semi-autos (eg Glocks) use trigger design which makes it harder for the trigger to be accidentally snagged, some are carried loaded and cocked but with an external safety engaged, and some are carried loaded but with the hammer uncocked, so your first shot has to cock the hammer (double-action, long and heavy trigger as discussed above) but then subsequent shots are single-action. Over the last ten years the first category has slowly been winning; external safeties are considered another thing to screw up under stress, and double-action/single-action generally requires a hammer, whereas most modern semi-autos are striker-fired (instead of a hammer slapping a firing pin, the firing pin itself is spring-loaded and released to fire).
-Revolvers can be chambered in much heavier cartridges for a given size. Cartridges comparable to .357 Magnum require a fairly large and heavy action to reliably work in a semi-auto, but in a revolver they can be had in compact sizes. That said, those compact high-caliber revolvers absolutely suck to shoot with any kind of accuracy, because...
-Revolvers have more felt recoil since there are no moving parts to soak up that recoil energy, and more muzzle flip due to the ergonomics involved. So while you can get a tiny subcompact revolver chambered in .357, it is not something you can shoot accurately under any kind of stress (and, again, the heavy trigger pull doesn't help). Modern developments in semi-auto design have also led to very small subcompacts chambered in .380 ACP or 9x19mm, which are more than sufficient for defensive use.
-I've been mostly talking about concealed carry so far because revolvers lose hardcore in any kind of combat scenario for two reasons: Capacity, and ease of reloading. You get six, sometimes seven shots at most (with no indication that you are out of ammo until you try to shoot and it goes click), and then reloading quickly requires a bulky speedloader and significant practice. Modern full-sized semi-auto combat handguns hold typically 12-18 rounds in a standard magazine (depending on caliber), lock open on empty, and are much quicker to reload. Revolvers are completely obsolete as combat handguns; it's only in concealed carry (where most people aren't carrying spare magazines for a semi-auto, and the small size necessitates a 5-8 round magazine size to begin with) where they can close the gap a bit.
-Reliability for revolvers is sort of true, sort of overrated. Lighter semi-autos can jam if you do not hold them tightly enough, but by and large modern semi-autos are extremely reliable and modern ammunition is equally consistent. In modern semi-autos, if you get any malfunctions in 100 rounds, that is considered very bad. When issues do arise they are usually ammo-related, and the most common malfunctions are easily rectified (IE, rack the slide). Revolvers can be expected to go bang every time you pull the trigger and cannot jam in the same way, but if something goes wrong, it generally incapacitates the revolver. Revolvers are not simpler nowadays; they have the illusion of simplicity due to fewer moving parts, but there are many critical geometries to those parts that are necessary to get everything to line up properly for a shot. Modern semi-autos are an awful lot simpler than the early hammer-fired semi-autos, from which the 'more complex/less reliable' comparison to revolvers originated.
-Revolvers are easier to clean, and require less cleaning. That said, I'm about 800 rounds since the last time I cleaned my CZ-75B, and it's still running fine. Firearms don't need nearly as much cleaning as media depicts. Normally the first sign that a gun needs cleaning is loss of accuracy (and we're talking, like, a 3" wide pattern at 100yds opens up to 5").
Generally speaking: Semi-autos are more popular and better in just about every way for concealed carry, and they're overwhelmingly better for combat use (see: even the most under-funded police departments finally ditching revolvers in the 80s). If someone says revolvers are better, they either have not done any serious comparative drills in the last 30 years, or don't have much familiarity with guns to begin with. Revolvers survive nowadays for nostalgia, silhouette shooting (where all those deficiencies no longer matter), collecting, and cashing in on an older demographic that hasn't caught up with the times, but they're technologically obsolete.
That might sound harsh, but it is what it is. I think revolvers are cool, but in the same sense that I think my Mauser C96 is cool; great to appreciate mechanically and fun to shoot at the range, but not something I would ever carry, let alone want to have in a shootout. Here's my reproduction Colt Dragoon, converted to fire modern metallic cartridges (rather than black powder).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As someone in the U.K., I feel like universal Concealed Carry might be safer?
For a start, it means no tosspot can just make a grab for my shooter, as they (in theory) won’t know if I’ve got one.
And equally, anyone looking to do an old fashioned Hold Up would have no way of knowing whether or not they might be shortly and thoroughly outgunned?
I get there’s shades of gray in between. But the first point is my main concern. In terms of tracing a given gunman, good luck if the only time they laid hands on the shooter was to pinch off someone else.
Practically speaking, the idea of someone stealing your gun out of its holster when open-carrying is not a thing that happens. Modern retention holsters use either an active retention system (they hold the gun in place) that requires a specific button or other action to unlock, or passive retention, where the holster is molded to the gun and you need to pull in a very specific direction (straight upwards) to remove the handgun. Neither is doable by a random aggressor, but it could be a risk if you were using an older-style non-retention holster (like, the classic style nylon or leather with a strap on top to hold the gun in).
But lack of identifiability is a good reason for concealed carry. At an extreme end, it avoids telling a mugger that you've got a free gun if he gets the drop on you, or a robber that you're the biggest threat. More importantly, though, it's just socially smoother- firearm ownership is a contentious thing, and attitudes have changed. Wind back the clock a hundred years, and open carry was seen as acceptable, while concealed carry was seen as suspicious (why are you trying to hide the fact that you're armed?).
Concealed holster design has advanced by leaps and bounds over the past few decades. Nowadays you can get a holster that will keep your weapon secure and concealed, and doesn't require much in the way of a retention system, so the speed difference versus a conventional holster is slim to none with practice and/or training. The main reason to open carry would be if you are, for whatever reason (eg going into bear country), carrying a standard-sized handgun, which is somewhat difficult to conceal.
Edit: Oh yeah, and laws impact it too. In many states open carry is legal, but concealed carry requires a permit. So sometimes people will open carry simply because they don't have a permit or cannot get one. Conversely, in some states you can get a concealed carry permit, but open carry is always illegal, so you have to make very sure that your weapon is concealed. Also, permits are sometimes reciprocal with other states and sometimes not, so you have to navigate a complex web of legalities to figure out where you can legally carry a firearm and how. It's a bit of a mess, to say the least.
Also, in my experience, open carry generally is for donkey-caves. Usually it's people who want to intimidate the ones around them or send a political message - I know I am dancing around it, trying not to get in it - and I think most CCW permit holders look down on them for it.
Freaking out the people around you because you are open carrying an AR15 in the supermarket is a good way to turn off what might have been supporters. Open carry is also a good way of making sure that if it goes down, you're getting it first, chief. And of course, you're always on the verge of a potentially fatal encounter with armed, nervous law enforcement - more so depending on your melanin levels, typically.
Obviously this does not apply to the sensible applications of open carry - people who work on ranches, or hikers, or other places where they might reasonable encounter aggressive wildlife on short notice. I'm taking about the jackholes with slung rifles in Chipotle.
I'm on the fence on that. 1) I think you absolutely should have the right to do what they're doing, and protesting via exercising that right is the good and proper American thing to do. 2) It does turn people off and makes yourself a target. But again it only turns people off because they are stupid and don't understand how Rights should work.
Its really no different from Rosa Parks refusing to leave her seat on that bus.
I generally think open carry is done by donkey caves. I will say that some people do it out of necessity. If you are a farmer, very rural hiker, or live on a rural homestead where snakes, predators, and other animals are your daily enemy you get pass.
Freaking out the people around you because you are open carrying an AR15 in the supermarket is a good way to turn off what might have been supporters. Open carry is also a good way of making sure that if it goes down, you're getting it first, chief. And of course, you're always on the verge of a potentially fatal encounter with armed, nervous law enforcement - more so depending on your melanin levels, typically.
Obviously this does not apply to the sensible applications of open carry - people who work on ranches, or hikers, or other places where they might reasonable encounter aggressive wildlife on short notice. I'm taking about the jackholes with slung rifles in Chipotle.
To your point, maturity, deportment, and appropriateness are what it's all about, and it all too often seems in short supply.
In many states, the legal "open carry" is basically a catch all to make it easier for law enforcement, and common sense.
Arizona, for example, has both legal open carry and legal concealed carry (without a permit, even). A lot of people in Arizona have firearms, and ranchers carry sixguns and 1911s on their hips, etc. People still have gun racks in their pick-up trucks, etc.
This more or less means that normal citizens don't have to panic about carrying a firearm incorrectly, or having a gun stored improperly in their vehicle while on the way to the range, etc. It also means land-owners don't have to worry about having a gun on their hip while driving to the gas station or driving through town, etc.
It also means that properly trained law enforcement officers aren't going to panic and draw down on people because they see a gun.
Generally, you're smarter concealed carrying - particularly in urban areas, etc. Legal "open carry" just makes life easier if carrying a gun is part of your job, or something you do routinely while working in distant areas.
Yeah, I 'open carry' my Judge when working on the property. Because it is my property (and I have rattlers, copperheads and cotton mouths on it).
And yeah, that reminds me of the advantage of a revolver (in my opinion). Automatics don't do shot shells well. The only ammo my Glock has ever jammed on were some 9mm snake shot a buddy gave me. The first round fires, the second fails to feed correctly. You don't have that issue with a revolver.
And of course, I have 3 inch .410 shot shells in the Judge. They work well on a snake. Very well.
Grey Templar wrote: Snake shot is a bad idea anyway. I've heard stories of it bouncing off a rattler's hide and just pissing it off. Just shoot it with a real bullet.
I have a 'real life' horror story about trying out some .22 snake shot, using a semiautomatic rifle, on a very aggressive cottonmouth. Long story short, I'm glad only the first three rounds were shot and the rest were hollow points.
Yeah, a .410 would be the minimum I'd consider for a "snake" type round. Maybe that fancy one with the three brass disc-slugs followed by the buckshot, etc.
Lots of good and valid points in regards to advantages and disadvantages of concealed and open carry, and when one is more appropriate than the other.
Like many others here, I prefer concealed carry for the reasons previously mentioned, but I am an advocate for open carry being legal, also for reasons previously mentioned.
One thing I will add that is a significant advantage of legal open carry:
It protects legal concealed carriers who may accidentally or inadvertently uncover their weapon. In some states where open carry is illegal but concealed carry is legal, a legal concealed carrier could theoretically be at risk of criminal charges if they bend over and their shirt rides up and their weapon becomes visible, or if their shirt gets caught on something, etc. I think that's a bit ridiculous, quite frankly, and open carry being legal eliminates any legal ambiguity in those sorts of situations.
Elbows wrote: In many states, the legal "open carry" is basically a catch all to make it easier for law enforcement, and common sense.
Arizona, for example, has both legal open carry and legal concealed carry (without a permit, even). A lot of people in Arizona have firearms, and ranchers carry sixguns and 1911s on their hips, etc. People still have gun racks in their pick-up trucks, etc.
This more or less means that normal citizens don't have to panic about carrying a firearm incorrectly, or having a gun stored improperly in their vehicle while on the way to the range, etc. It also means land-owners don't have to worry about having a gun on their hip while driving to the gas station or driving through town, etc.
It also means that properly trained law enforcement officers aren't going to panic and draw down on people because they see a gun.
Generally, you're smarter concealed carrying - particularly in urban areas, etc. Legal "open carry" just makes life easier if carrying a gun is part of your job, or something you do routinely while working in distant areas.
I didnt see many firearms on my little jaunt to Arizona. in fact I only saw one, on a motorcyclist in a side bag on the freeway. looked like a lever action of some sort. I did stay in Scottsdale though, which seemed more like a student town, so I guess the interest in firearms might be lower there.
One of the things I regretted about my trip to the states was not going to the range and firing some weapons.
There are some places that do have "concealed carry", but make it as legally risky as possible for the person carrying.
For example, "concealed carry" is technically legal, but the moment your weapon becomes marginally visible, even for a moment, you just committed a felony. There was an infamous video of this a while back with a guy getting out of his truck. His shirt pulled up in the back and his pistol was momentarily visible to the police. Even though he was permitted, he was arrested.
Elbows wrote: The only kind of hunting you'd want to do with an actual semi-auto carbine in place of a simple hunting gun. A magazine fed carbine would definitely be the way to go.
Eh, I've never understood the attraction of "real" hunting guns, especially when you consider the mag fed bolt action was once the epitome of military personal firepower. Heck the bolt action was widely used in WWI and WWII. If I've got a semi automatic with 30 rounds doesn't mean I *HAVE* to use all 30 rounds! I can drop a warthog with a single shot from my Saiga AK-103 just as you can with your Ruger American Ranch bolt action. Modern Sporting Rifles are as accurate or even more accurate than old timey Bubbah SMLE's or such "classic" hunting guns. Most MSR's are more accurate than most shooters.
Also I can use a 5 round mag in my AK if you think having 30 is unsporting or something.
That being said I own:
a Saiga AK-103 in 7.62x39mm as my main MSR. When I bought it AR's weren't easily available here, it was cheap (around half the price of local R5's) and ammo was cheap and plentiful.
a 15-22 in SBR configuration because .22 is fun and cheap
a Mossberg Maverick M88, because I hate shotguns but need one for sport (and my 870 was stolen from a gunshop)
A G17 with a cut down frame for EDC/CCW All of those are used in IDPA multi gun competitions
And my hunting gun. A .454 Casull Raging Bull
I also have a Colt .22 Cadet pistol, a Glock 26 and a 1911.
Huh, can't find a picture of my 26 or Colt. Ah well.
Personally I believe in the right of an individual to carry whatever they want to protect themselves. Living in a country with both high "gun violence" and strict gunlaws I can honestly say gunlaws do NOTHING to prevent criminals getting or using guns. They DO impact on law abiding citizens though. We have licensing requirements, limits on number and type, limit on ammunition, limit on use and carry, renewal periods, safe requirements and inspections, you name it. The criminals still have full auto AK-47's (Type 56's to be exact).
I do think open carry in public is stupid as hell. There have been instances here where cops have been murdered and their guns stolen. It does happen. And it gives away your element of surprise if you need it. That being said I don't think it's a problem on your own property and I don't think it should be illegal either.
Carry permits are extremely difficult to get over here. And open carry is non existent mostly because why would you need to, there are no big predators arround.
Unless of course you go shooting at a range but that is more a common sense approach or just bought a gun, etc.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I didnt see many firearms on my little jaunt to Arizona. in fact I only saw one, on a motorcyclist in a side bag on the freeway. looked like a lever action of some sort. I did stay in Scottsdale though, which seemed more like a student town, so I guess the interest in firearms might be lower there...
To be honest I think you tend to see OC less and less in the highly Urban parts of AZ given most people becoming less and less invovled with the land. Lots of Conceal carrying going on in AZ though given the more liberal carry policies. Scottsdale is quite civilized all things considered. When you get down to the southern end of the state and are closer to smuggling routes or hubs, then it's a different story. Still better to Conceal in that environment as well for the most part.
There was more than one car jacking near a freeway I worked next to where some gang jumped out with AKs and drove off with someone's hummer or truck, or had a little gun battle down a side street.
That being said I own:
a Saiga AK-103 in 7.62x39mm as my main MSR. When I bought it AR's weren't easily available here, it was cheap (around half the price of local R5's) and ammo was cheap and plentiful.
That's pretty neat, we can't get Saiga's here anymore, do you have a 5.45 as well? Looks like a 74 mag there too. I didn't get to play with any rooty tooty point 'n shooties when I visited SA years ago, but it's always interesting seeing what's available in different places.
That's pretty neat, we can't get Saiga's here anymore, do you have a 5.45 as well? Looks like a 74 mag there too. I didn't get to play with any rooty tooty point 'n shooties when I visited SA years ago, but it's always interesting seeing what's available in different places.
No, I know of literally 3 AK-74's in the country, there is ZERO 5.45 ammo here. I thought with the 7N6 ban in the US maybe the gunshops here would get smart and import a stack of it but no. The one guy with one I know had kittens when someone got him some 5.45 brass and dies. I don't know what he reloads, but he's a collector anyway so probably doesn't shoot it. I don't know what the other guys do for ammo.
That mag is the original Saiga mag that came with the gun, it's a 30 but had a metal U piece in it to limit capacity to 5 as it was a "hunting" gun. I'm lucky that way, my friend's was a literal 5 round mag, I have that now for bench shooting but don't use it very often.
Back when I started shooting not many people had semi auto rifles. There were quite a few M1 Carbines around, the occasional LM5 and every to often a SANNA-77 9mm carbine. I'd seen and shot 1 AR-15 in my life, an old Colt SP1. Then they decided to change the law from almost "will issue" to "shall issue" and introduced a whole WODGE of gun laws, limiting total ownership to 4, 1 self defence gun (pistol or shotgun), plus max 1 sporting pistol and 2 other guns. IF you were a dedicated sportsman or hunter you could apply for more. As many people already had the 2 pistols we were SOL unless we became dedicated so shooting sports popped up like daisys. My IDPA/SADPA number was 270ish we're now in the 10 000 bracket IIRC. As everyone was dedicated we could also apply for the now "Restricted" Semi Auto rifles and shotguns, so everyone did. The various 3gun sports blossomed. We can now get anything (well pre COVID we could). AK's, 9mm AK's, G3's, FAL's, AR-15's from everywhere (USA (Colt, Daniel Defense, DPMS, S&W, Sig, Armalite, Remington...), China, Germany, 2 companies here are making their own...) MP5's (German, Pakistani), Uzi, Scorpion Evo's, Taurus 9mm's, KRISS Vectors, UMP's ... Heck even Barrett .50's. Since everyone was now a legitimate sports shooter legally they could not deny anyone who applied - there have been some very successful court cases won against the government on this regard.
We've home brewed some pretty neat toys, the Denel NTW-20 20mm sniper rifle is one, but we have various other snipers in .50 and .338. The LM5 production has closed and the civilian market has pretty much dried up but like I said we have 2 companies here making AR-15's, including pistol caliber carbines and things like left hand charging AR's. Our hunting rifle community is as lively as always. With the PRS Steel Rain long range shooting sport catching on we can also get things like the AWM, Sako TRG M10 and such.
Essentially here's what happened to 5.45 (in a very vague nutshell)
1) In the US, a firearm cartridge is considered a pistol cartridge or rifle cartridge (generally speaking). They are held to slightly different standards with regard to import, etc. You generally cannot purchase or obtain imported "armour piercing" (again, vaguely defined) handgun ammunition, while rifles you generally can (as most will penetrate average soft body armour, anyway), etc.
2) The 5.45x39 had never been put into a pistol, and thus never registered as a pistol in the US because...well, people were smart. 7N6 style spam-can surplus ammo was cheap, if corrosive. Gunsmiths around the country, etc. followed this unwritten gentleman's agreement that you didn't build or register a 5.45x39 "pistol" because then the cartridge changes categories to a pistol cartridge and import laws change drastically.
3) Some fether amateur gunsmith decided to build a pistol 5.45x39...registered it with the ATF...and overnight the cartridge became a "pistol" cartridge and was thus banned from import, etc.
Now, couple that with general increased bans on Russian imported firearms/ammo...and you're now stuck with basic commercial ammo which is fine, but no longer priced low to compete with spam-can surplus ammo. 5.45x39 surplus used to be around $0.08 a round or something obscene, and commercial ammo was commonly $0.18-0.21. Now, with the loss of surplus ammo, and the decrease of imported Silver Bear, etc...the average cost is far closer to 5.56 territory (around $0.28-0.30). This makes the rifle far less attractive, despite the round/gun still being excellent.
For a while, a quality arsenal-built AK in 5.45x39 was kind of a wonderfully kept secret. Accurate, reliable, and cheap ammo - with performance more or less identical to an average 5.56 round.
PS: People who understand all the laws and intricacies can correct the above - this is the cliff's notes version as I understand it. I'm sure I've missed some legal technicalities, etc. etc.
I run 5.45x39 AKs as my primary rifle - though I try to keep 2-3K rounds on hand and it's definitely pricier to do so now - which sucks.
I'd like to know more about the case in question, because that seems...questionable. I've never heard of anyone being arrested - presumably for brandishing - in those circumstances. Brandishing generally requires violent intent.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I didnt see many firearms on my little jaunt to Arizona. in fact I only saw one, on a motorcyclist in a side bag on the freeway. looked like a lever action of some sort. I did stay in Scottsdale though, which seemed more like a student town, so I guess the interest in firearms might be lower there...
To be honest I think you tend to see OC less and less in the highly Urban parts of AZ given most people becoming less and less invovled with the land. Lots of Conceal carrying going on in AZ though given the more liberal carry policies. Scottsdale is quite civilized all things considered. When you get down to the southern end of the state and are closer to smuggling routes or hubs, then it's a different story. Still better to Conceal in that environment as well for the most part.
There was more than one car jacking near a freeway I worked next to where some gang jumped out with AKs and drove off with someone's hummer or truck, or had a little gun battle down a side street.
One of the reasons I decided to move.
We drove from el centro through yuma along highway 8 then swung north at gila bend. A portion of the drive was literally along the southern border with Mexico. I was surprised at how quiet it was. I was expecting to see tons of border patrols, and lots more people. That's what the news always makes out like.
I'd like to know more about the case in question, because that seems...questionable. I've never heard of anyone being arrested - presumably for brandishing - in those circumstances. Brandishing generally requires violent intent.
Yeah, this is a common misconception. A gun being exposed by accident is not brandishing under any legal circumstance. Brandishing a firearm is displaying with intent to intimidate, coerce, or harm. That being said...there are far too many instances of ignorant people seeing someone's gun and then calling the police and just saying "There's a man with a gun in the Wal-Mart!".
This is mainly because most non-gun owning people are entirely ignorant (and often fearful) of guns....have zero understanding of the legal capacity of people to carry firearms, etc. They're also normally ignorant of how to report anything to police officers and thus end up creating a crazy situation.
I don't know of a single case where a person was actually arrested/charged for brandishing in this method - but it is best to avoid it, again because of the idiocy of the average person.
I'd like to know more about the case in question, because that seems...questionable. I've never heard of anyone being arrested - presumably for brandishing - in those circumstances. Brandishing generally requires violent intent.
In GA, up until a few years ago, a concealed weapon accidentally displaying could get you a charge, loss of permit and so on. I can't remember if it was 'brandishing' or 'illegal exhibition or what. The state legislature uflucked itself probably about 4-5 years ago so it is no longer an issue. It used to scare me when I rode my bike. Sometimes my jacket would ride up and potentially expose my Glock.
So the range finally opened up again today. got to shoot a bunch of stuff, including the 458 socom. 458 just kills your shoulder when you don't have any sort of buttpad.
I'd gotten some commercial HSM soft points to use to sight the gun in and it was acting weird. The bullets themselves were having extreme difficulty chambering from the magazine. the soft tips kept getting stuck on the upper locking lugs as if they were entering the chamber from too extreme of an angle. I started chambering them by hand.
They were also having some extraction inconsistencies. Sometimes they would extract fine and get thrown 5-10 ft away, which seems really short. But out of the 30 rounds I fired about 5 of them failed to extract and they'd get pinned by the bolt. I think the commercial rounds were too low pressure to cycle properly. And unfortunately I didn't pay the extra $50 for this upper to have an adjustable gas block.
The handloads I did were a different story. I was a little concerned I'd loaded them on the hotter side. Good news is there was no bulging so they're not unsafe. But I'm sure they are still a little too hot because the extractor was putting some nasty gouges in the brass, plus they were getting solidly dented and scraped in the general extraction. The handloads were loading from a magazine just fine so I think the bullet geometry was at play with the commercial flat nose soft tips.
Also gained a little anecdote regarding the importance of muzzle discipline.TL/DR is always point in a safe direction.
I was chambering each round of the 458 by hand. Stick it in the chamber, point at the ground facing down range, drop the bolt carrier, then set up on target.
Well. I dropped the bolt this one time. One hand was dropping the bolt. The other was holding the buttstock. BOOOM! That round I had just chambered discharged right into the ground 5 feet in front of the benches. Fortunately, nobody was downrange or near the muzzle.
I believe what happened was that the vibration from the very heavy bolt caused the trigger to vibrate enough to drop the hammer. The trigger on my AR does have a very very short traverse, only 1/8th of an inch to fire. I had not had the safety engaged with that or any of the previous 5 rounds I had fired when I chambered them. But now I know to always have the safety engaged when chambering the SOCOM.
So yeah. Thats why we always have multiple layers of safety to ensure nobody gets hurt.
Elbows wrote: A gun being exposed by accident is not brandishing under any legal circumstance.
Sadly, people have been charged with brandishing for that very thing in CA and a few other states IIRC. Yes, its dumb as heck.
Any of you AK guys seen the new Zastava ZPAP M70? The most recently released version has a chrome lined barrel and bulged front RPK-style trunnion for only like $30 more than the previous non-chrome lined, non-RPK-style trunnion. Seems like one of the best new AK imports we've seen in awhile, particularly at that price point. WASR prices have been skyrocketing so the new ZPAP is actually cheaper at some places than the current batch of WASRs.
Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.
I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.
But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.
Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.
But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?
Hordini wrote:Any of you AK guys seen the new Zastava ZPAP M70? The most recently released version has a chrome lined barrel and bulged front RPK-style trunnion for only like $30 more than the previous non-chrome lined, non-RPK-style trunnion. Seems like one of the best new AK imports we've seen in awhile, particularly at that price point. WASR prices have been skyrocketing so the new ZPAP is actually cheaper at some places than the current batch of WASRs.
They're definitely intriguing. They're going to be heavier than a WASR and other AKM clones, and have fewer furniture options, but aside from that they look like a great value in the current market.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.
I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.
But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.
Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.
But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?
I don't have any direct experience with it, but there are definitely some big honking hunting revolvers out there, some truly absurdly huge in gargantuan cartridges, and I know S&W makes at least one model with a bipod Most of what I've heard is looking for a greater challenge than using a rifle, but hopefully Kayback and others can expand more on it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.
I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.
But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.
Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.
But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?
But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?
It Depends :p
Seriously though that's a Raging Bull in .454 Casull. It fires a 300 grain projectile at almost 1600 fps. (You can get other loads but that's what I can get here). This produces ~1800ft/lbs or ~2500J of energy. While energy isn't the be all and end all of killing power by comparison my AK-103, shooting M43 standard 122 grain bullets at 2300fps produces ~1500ft/lbs or ~2100J. In practical terms it is more powerful than an AK-47, shot for shot. It is just shy, in terms of energy, of the popular .308 Winchester hunting round.
(for comparison a .45 ACP is 230gr@850fps for 350ft/lbs and a standard 9mm is 124gr@1150fps for 360ft/lbs. so you can see this thing is a monster.)
But because it is a pistol you simply don't have the range of a rifle. The mechanics of aiming, the design profile and weight distribution of the bullet and the sights force you to get close. Getting close to game is hard. I can get within 300m of an animal easily. I can get within 150m with effort. Getting within 25m is hard. If I can get into a good position to kill an animal with a pistol I've done a good job. BUT because I'm practical I want to make sure if I shoot an animal it knows about it so I chose a really big gun. Realistically if I hit an animal at 25m with a .308 it is going to know about it too.
I have only successfully used it against feral hogs. Something I'd use a shotgun for normally because feral hogs are generally in thick vegetation and you have to get close to shoot them. I've taken it to a hunting area with antelopes but haven't managed to get into a good position. I'm just not that good yet and I don't want to shoot an animal just to shoot it. I can buy game meat if I want it.
There isn't anything wrong with using a rifle for hunting, that just isn't for me.
Grey Templar wrote: I was chambering each round of the 458 by hand. Stick it in the chamber, point at the ground facing down range, drop the bolt carrier, then set up on target.
Well. I dropped the bolt this one time. One hand was dropping the bolt. The other was holding the buttstock. BOOOM! That round I had just chambered discharged right into the ground 5 feet in front of the benches. Fortunately, nobody was downrange or near the muzzle.
I believe what happened was that the vibration from the very heavy bolt caused the trigger to vibrate enough to drop the hammer. The trigger on my AR does have a very very short traverse, only 1/8th of an inch to fire. I had not had the safety engaged with that or any of the previous 5 rounds I had fired when I chambered them. But now I know to always have the safety engaged when chambering the SOCOM.
The rifle being pointed downwards when this happened, and the rifle being hand-loaded, are both clues. ARs have free-floating firing pins. If your .458 ammo has soft primers (typical for civilian ammo- the AR15 was designed around milspec with comparatively hard primers), the inertia from dropping the bolt directly onto a round (rather than feeding from a magazine) could have imparted enough energy to the firing pin to set it off.
I doubt any vibration could release the hammer; if that were the case you'd likely be having vibration from the gun actually firing cause problems with the disconnector.
Should it happen again while the safety is engaged, you'll have your answer. I would suggest not single-loading directly into the chamber; at the very least because it's hard on your extractor.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?
Handguns usually suck for accuracy at a distance because they're harder to stabilize, and because pistol iron sights have a very short sight radius. If you can brace a handgun on a bench rest/hunting stand/convenient tree, and have decent optics, then you can get rifle-like accuracy at typical hunting distances (< 50 yards).
It'll always be easier to use a rifle, regardless of range. But many states in the US have different seasons for different types of weapon (bow/crossbow/pistol/shotgun/rifle), so having a suitable pistol can open up additional opportunities to hunt. There is also the matter of personal preference/challenge.
Keep in mind that hunters are not using, like, bog-standard 9mm/.45 combat handguns. They're typically using high-powered magnum revolvers (or sometimes magnum semi-autos, though those are much rarer), typically fitted with either a scope or red dot sight.
Using a pistol for hunting is several things. One is as an emergency second weapon in case you have to fend off the charge of a large, dangerous wild animal (this happened at least once to an uncle of mine, who dropped his suddenly useless feeling light varmint gun, pulled out a 454 casul pistol, and shot a boar that was otherwise likely to gut him or another of the hutners he was with. If I were hunting, I would probably have something like this as a sidearm available just in case of suddenly finding out that I had surprised a couple while hogs.
In places like Alaska, hunters often carry such a big revolver as the 454 casull or the smith and wesson 500 or 460 (these are high power, all three!) or perhaps a very hot loaded 45 long colt in a blackhawk ruger, in case they are suddenly faced with a hungry, charging grizzly or polar bear. While black bears, the smaller animals in the southern climates will flee if wounded, a grizzly or polar (close relatives and quite aggressive) will continue to charge you and rip you into little bite sized pieces (which are, I believe, like 6 to 10 inches for a mouth that big) and then proceed to eat your corpse. There are many larger caliber and powerful revolvers that can fill this bill. Ruger even makes one called "the Alaskan" that comes in several sizes, to include the massive 480 ruger round. You might never draw it if you are out hunting sheep, but if your snark turns out to be a boogum? Its as good as a vorpal blade. B L AM several times in a row without having to work the mechanism to recock a big rifle, with the bear charging on you (remember they are ambush predators) from 40 or fewer feet away.
Some people hunt with very long barreled pistols with higher power rounds in them for the I guess ease of carrying, and figure that hunting in densely forested terrain is a bit unlikely to need them shooting at ranges beyond where they can put a pistol round on goal reliably. I suppose because of my uncle's history with his gun (it was a very large caliber freedom arms gun, a revolver, I believe). Also, you can annoy people in the lanes next to you in gun ranges, as they physically vibrate in the shockwaves some of these monstrous pistols make.
There is actually a pretty substantial sub-culture of hunters which revolve(heh) around hunting with pistols.
Pretty much all of the massive magnum pistols that exist are specifically designed for hunting. 500 S&W, 45 Long Colt, 454 Casul, and the few revolvers which are chambered in actual rifle calibers like 45-70.
They're not practical for anything other than hunting and target shooting.
45 long colt is basically a .45 acp in a revolver format -- it can also be loaded much more powerful than the .45 acp, and some less powerful (called cowboy loads as they mimic a lower powered black powder loadout). So its one of the quite versatile rounds, I think, suitable for shootouts and grizzley bears, depending. While it may not seem formidable down at only 850ish fps, its still a big @#$% bullet.
There is also a devoted pistol hunting genre on the other end of the spectrum. Hunting extremely small game with a 22Lr pistol is fairly common. I have a Ruger MkIII with an 8-inch slab side barrel that I've been wanting to rabbit shoot with for quite some time.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.
I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.
But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.
Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.
But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?
In my home state, shotguns (not rifles) are actually the most common guns for hunting deer. Up until a few years ago, it was illegal to hunt deer with a rifle at all, with the limited exception of hunting done out of season with property destruction tags. For gun hunting in season you were limited to shotguns using rifled slug ammunition or a rifled shotgun "deer slayer" barrel. A few years ago they started allowing rifles with straight walled cartridges only, many of which are actually rifles chambered for handgun rounds like .357 and .44 magnum.
In my home state, shotguns (not rifles) are actually the most common guns for hunting deer. Up until a few years ago, it was illegal to hunt deer with a rifle at all, with the limited exception of hunting done out of season with property destruction tags. For gun hunting in season you were limited to shotguns using rifled slug ammunition or a rifled shotgun "deer slayer" barrel. A few years ago they started allowing rifles with straight walled cartridges only, many of which are actually rifles chambered for handgun rounds like .357 and .44 magnum.
I guess they are trying to stop people "sniping" at animals? You can get almost as much energy as you want our of a straight walled cartridge, rounds like the 350 Legend or the .450 Marlin attest to that. I've used various lever gun in .357, .45LC and one in .45-70 and think a .454 Casull lever gun would be a handy package.
In my country we have much less restriction on when and how you can hunt. The various times for the years you can hunt encompass all weapons from bows to .338 Lap Mag. We do have an almost universal ban on semi automatics, except in one province IIRC. They are allowed at a National "Federal" level but are banned at a Provincial "State" level except in Mpummalanga IIRC. There is a legal minimum for large animals, .375 H&H. Interestingly enough it has become an almost de-facto requirement to have a suppressor on your rifle if you are hunting here. This is an individual requirement from the game farms to reduce the stress of hunts on the other animals.
Currently our suppressors are unregulated (to a point. Apparently you need to own a firearm that it can be mounted on, but that isn't in the law exactly, grey area) We go through an ATFE background check style application to own the firearm in the first place, but once we do it's game on. I walked into a shop and bought a monocore .22 suppressor just to see how it played. My home brew one was better, albeit bigger. I can go buy one for my AK or my Glock tomorrow if I want. The criminals still don't use them.
Somewhat awkwardly suppressors are regulated at a federal level like full auto machineguns and destructive devices here in the US, despite often being mandated for hunting and certain range activities in many other nations. Originally this was for anti-poaching purposes in the 1930's, but pop culture over time has changed perceptions of them into more nefarious devices.
Yeah, suppressors have other purposes. When we used to fire the AW 50 on the range, we had to use suppressors to reduce the safety trace of the rounds. Luckily I did my shoots before this came in so I got to experience full power.
Vaktathi wrote: Somewhat awkwardly suppressors are regulated at a federal level like full auto machineguns and destructive devices here in the US, despite often being mandated for hunting and certain range activities in many other nations. Originally this was for anti-poaching purposes in the 1930's, but pop culture over time has changed perceptions of them into more nefarious devices.
Yeah, in some places suppressors are considered PPE.
Incidentally we also have a large poaching issue here. Very VERY few poaching guns with suppressors are ever recovered. It's mostly a clapped out AK, or for the big ticket items they are straight up using hunting guns like .375 H&H doubles.
It depends. A lot of people have already covered most of it, but in the forests I hunt in visibility is fairly short, so a rifle does not have as big an advantage over a pistol as you'd think. I did it a few times with a 1745 Tower ('light' my ass, it's a .69 pistol) due to PA's weird muzzleloading laws previously prohibiting anything made after 1804. I got a buck, but my wrists did not thank me.
In my home state, shotguns (not rifles) are actually the most common guns for hunting deer. Up until a few years ago, it was illegal to hunt deer with a rifle at all, with the limited exception of hunting done out of season with property destruction tags. For gun hunting in season you were limited to shotguns using rifled slug ammunition or a rifled shotgun "deer slayer" barrel. A few years ago they started allowing rifles with straight walled cartridges only, many of which are actually rifles chambered for handgun rounds like .357 and .44 magnum.
I guess they are trying to stop people "sniping" at animals? You can get almost as much energy as you want our of a straight walled cartridge, rounds like the 350 Legend or the .450 Marlin attest to that. I've used various lever gun in .357, .45LC and one in .45-70 and think a .454 Casull lever gun would be a handy package.
My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places where hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.
My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places were hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.
My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places were hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.
Which is kinda dumb. Even handgun calibers are lethal for a couple kilometers if fired into the air so there isn't really any more of a safety concern. Its just a pointless restriction.
But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?
Still hunting with pistol is a very American and African thing.
Over here where the kind of activity you want to do with your guns dictates the kind of gun you're allowed to have. Basically pistol calibers can't be used for hunting, and hunting weapons are always defined as "long guns", so it just can't be done.
I've only carried a sidearm while hunting in Alaska. Never actually fired it though.
My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places were hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.
Which is kinda dumb. Even handgun calibers are lethal for a couple kilometers if fired into the air so there isn't really any more of a safety concern. Its just a pointless restriction.
I absolutely agree with you, especially because the end result is most people who gun hunt, hunt with a shotgun with either rifled slugs or a shotgun with a rifled "deer slayer" barrel, so it basically turns the shotgun into a high powered rifle anyway.
Anyone have any experience with the Taraus G2C 9mm? Thinking about purchasing one for home defense since it is pretty affordable and can fit into a small safe (live in an apt.)
DrGiggles wrote: Anyone have any experience with the Taraus G2C 9mm? Thinking about purchasing one for home defense since it is pretty affordable and can fit into a small safe (live in an apt.)
That is my Wife's carry pistol. She likes it because it has an external/thumb safety. It is functional. Reasonably accurate a defense ranges, been very reliable so far (probably about 500 rounds through it). We had a female friend who recently decided to get her permit and was shopping for a pistol. We had her and her husband over and had a collection of pistols for her to fire so she could see what she liked and did not. She bought a Taurus G2C because it met all her requirements (safety, accurate, easy to use).
I see it as a tool. Again, it is functional. Not my favorite handgun, but it does what it is supposed to.
DrGiggles wrote: Anyone have any experience with the Taraus G2C 9mm? Thinking about purchasing one for home defense since it is pretty affordable and can fit into a small safe (live in an apt.)
It's my current carry pistol. I've put about a thousand rounds though it so far, and it has been utterly reliable. The only downside I've found is that the mags are a little loose when seated, which doesn't affect function but it does let them rattle a little - I wrapped a strip of tape around them and that fixed it permanently.
It's kinda funny, I've dumped as much as $2k into single rifles, which is a fair chunk for me - but I'm still carrying this little $230 pistol as my EDC. I went into this renting a bunch of pistols because I wanted something I would feel comfortable with - assuming I'd wind up with a glock 19 - but this one felt the best to me. It's certainly held up though, and I trust it.
For pleasure shooting, I still love the 1911 but it's a bit of a pain to haul around that full size frame, and the limited round capacity doesn't make it a great option for EDC.
So, my range is back open to normal hours until 9pm, meaning I can actually get there after work (even working from home, I gotta actually work during office hours, and closing at 5 meant no time to go), and its typically deserted except for weekend mornings so social distancing shouldn't be an issue. I'm excited to pew pew again for the first time in weeks. Anyone else getting range time in these days? I'm thinking the K31 needs a trip out there if I can find some ammo in the closet for it.
#jelly, alas my back yard is a balcony several stories above a major boulevard
I haven't been to a range in weeks, so I'm feeling the itch, especially now that I've got my car back in working order after it sat for a couple months without being driven. I've also been good about not obtaining any new toys however, I'm a little proud of myself for that, but slaying some paper is definitely at the top of my list of things to do this week
TheMeanDM wrote: Any advice on holsters for concealed carry of a ruger Security 9...?
Just don't know much about holsters and manufacturers.
Will be thinking of adding either a laser or light/laser combo to it at some point...if that makes a difference too.
I'm a fan of Vedder Holsters. Reasonably priced Kydex, and they have Ruger Security 9 holsters. They have options for IWB, OWB, and magazine holsters. Their belts are good as well.
If you go with a Kydex holster and are going to add a laser or a light, you will need a holster that is molded for that gun with a laser/light.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Never really stopped. Of course I can shoot in my backyard.
I am eternally jealous of people who can shoot on their property. My choices are the public range, which is free but also a mosquito and garbage filled dump full of dangerous morons, or the indoor range which is pistol only. :(
Gadzilla666 wrote: Never really stopped. Of course I can shoot in my backyard.
I am eternally jealous of people who can shoot on their property. My choices are the public range, which is free but also a mosquito and garbage filled dump full of dangerous morons, or the indoor range which is pistol only. :(
There's a few indoor ranges in my area (DFW) that I've seen people shoot AR variants at, but those may have been the 'pistol' variety. I don't see the appeal in that specific firearm as a pistol. I inherited quite a few high caliber shotguns for small game hunting (birds), but I don't hunt so they're sort of just there. I have a Smith and Wesson 629 for self defense which is sort of overkill, but I wanted something that could theoretically take down larger animals if necessary when hiking.
I've been looking at getting a Sig Sauer P365 for concealed carry.
Elbows wrote: A .410/.22 combo would only be good for survival (hunting, etc.). Not a suitable combo for much beyond that.
I could use one for pest control. It would take care of the copperheads/rattlers and the nasty squirrels eating through the plastic of my feed bins and destroying horse and goat feed.
That was sort of the conversation I was trying to spark. All I know is that when I have seen the .22/.410 combos they have been quite expensive for something that doesn't pack up near as easily or as compactly as an Henry AR7.
They are sort of a gimmick gun for minimalist survivalist fudds. People who want to be prepared but also don’t want to get a “real”’ gun for some reason. And/or they are one of those people who have a hard fetish for .22s and .410s.
Oh it's a completely okay survivalist style gun...as long as you don't plan on running into people...or anything bigger than a squirrel
I find .22LRs to basically fall into a couple categories: varmint guns for rabbits, snakes, mice, etc. Guns for teaching kids, or a training firearm for new shooters or kids. Also...apparently they're pretty popular for hitmen in other countries, but as a useful tool - not the best.
As a defensive firearm? Even worse. I think a large appeal factor is the availability of break-down rifles that you can carry cheap ammo around, etc.
Indeed mainly because of the iffy lethality of 22.
It’s dangerous, but it probably won’t kill someone quickly if it does at all. The only reason I suspect it’s popular with European hitmen is because it’s easier to get 22 ammo as opposed to real calibers in Europe.
It’s certainly more likely to just piss off someone who is attacking you.
Keep in mind, .22lr kills more people than any other cartridge in the US. Granted that's simply due to volume of use, and that's not to say it's really an ideal load for anything other than plinking/training or for use against very small game, but it's absolutely capable of inflicting a lethal wound. You don't need much power or penetration ability to sever a major artery, puncture a trachea, etc and a direct angle impact will absolutely penetrate a skull at self defense ranges, they're used frequently in animal slaughter for exactly that on animals as large as adult pigs.
A .22 has just enough energy to penetrate a skull and not quite enough to penetrate the other side, so it's gonna bounce around in there a bit. Definitely a stopper with good shot placement.
Yep, I'd never argue that .22LR is not capable of killing someone (read a bunch of studies on gunshot wounds/lethality and you find out it's a bizarre and unknown science!), but when I think of a defensive firearm, the ability to stop someone - not to kill them, is the main concern.
Bleeding out from a minor gunshot wound is lethal, but it's not effective. Lungs, spine, heart, and last choice; head....are where you need to go to actually stop someone. That's where the tiny calibers struggle (against humans of course!).
It’s dangerous, but it probably won’t kill someone quickly if it does at all. The only reason I suspect it’s popular with European hitmen is because it’s easier to get 22 ammo as opposed to real calibers in Europe.
It's popular with hitmen in the US as well, depending on your needs. The pros of the 22 is that it's easily concealable, quiet, and harder to trace. You have better control of a small pistol in 22 than your would with a larger caliber. So, if you have to eliminate a target close up and in public, it has it's advantages. That said, I can think of at least one assassin that had a bad experience with them failing to penetrate the skull.
Elbows wrote: Yep, I'd never argue that .22LR is not capable of killing someone (read a bunch of studies on gunshot wounds/lethality and you find out it's a bizarre and unknown science!), but when I think of a defensive firearm, the ability to stop someone - not to kill them, is the main concern.
Right. I'm defending 22LR as lethal, but I actually carry 9mm +P hollowpoints. I would never trust 22LR defensively if I had almost any other option, because I don't trust myself to have absolutely perfect shot placement in a stressful situation.
There's a few indoor ranges in my area (DFW) that I've seen people shoot AR variants at, but those may have been the 'pistol' variety. I don't see the appeal in that specific firearm as a pistol. I inherited quite a few high caliber shotguns for small game hunting (birds), but I don't hunt so they're sort of just there. I have a Smith and Wesson 629 for self defense which is sort of overkill, but I wanted something that could theoretically take down larger animals if necessary when hiking.
Just my perspective, I run an 5.56 11.5 inch barrel on an SBR and on a pistol frame. The shorter barrell is to offset the weight and ballance of the suppressor I run it with while still having good defense terminal effects out to 100 yards with the ammo I use. I prefer the SBR for the stability the stock offers. Mostly use the pistol lower as a place to park such uppers when swapping them out, say for example with an 8" 300 BLK upper also running the suppressor.
For some folks there is a perk in being able to carry the rifle in a smaller package, or being able to travel interstate with it without a permission slip. Without debating the merit, I can see the rationale and say "whatever floats your goat".
I do happen to love my 7" 22lr AR pistol my kid uses. It's a great way to familiarize people with the basics of the platform without the weight and blast of the full size 16"+ AR. Also great cheap trigger training.
Not for everyone, but I like the diversity of options.
There was a hitman fail once where he shot a guy in the head, but not strait on. kind of far to one side. The bullet penatrated the skin, but not the skull, and it literally circled around the guy's head.
Its an M249 set up to accept box magazines instead of a belt. And the mag is some obscure 60 rounder that I hear is a jamming nightmare. Normally I believe the M249 box mag conversion accepts normal M4 mags.
Yeah, if they were a third the price...I'd think about it, just for giggles (same way I've considered one of the Tommybuilt T36's), but at $8500, that's no bueno.
It'd be an awesome range toy though, even semiauto.
I really do wonder why certain guns are so damn expensive. I don't care what minor performance benefits it might have over a similar firearm, if it costs 5-8 times as much its not worth it.
I think FN, HK, and other big name firearm companies are sinking way too much money into RnD costs for new firearms that yields little to no practical advantages, only driving the prices up.
The development costs are part of it. For a lot of stuff (like the SCAR), I know FN basically only makes commercial production runs between military contracts, and they know whatever limited number they make will sell pretty much not matter what, so they can charge whatever they want. HK I know has all sorts of issues with exporting stuff due to both German export law and US import law, and getting anything to the States is always expensive, and they do like to overengineer stuff of course. Both also have extremely high labor costs relative to a lot of their competition in the commercial sphere (the people on the floor at Palmetto or Ruger for instance aren't making what the people on the floor at HK are making for example).
That said, the m249 is expensive because it's a big heavy complex piece of equipment. IIRC they cost $4-5k for the US military and they're buying them buy the thousands, for the small production runs of semiautos (that have a fair share of different parts for ATF compliance) it doesn't surprise me that they cost twice as much
Avengers Endgame. What is the rifle that Bucky is using? And is set up for us left handers?
As said before, M249-more generically, the FN Minimi.
They run almost equally well left-or-right handed-I don't believe that there is a left-handed version manufactured. Primary complaint is reloading on the run-which is difficult enough right-handed anyway, the ergonomics just make it suck for lefties.
Reasonably heavy gun, and I wish it had a bit more engineering in it (it's almost entirely stamped, and feels quite cheap and rattle-y as a result, in addition to having a million pinch points and sharp edges), but it does the job.
So I got my 458 socom sighted in with the ammo I loaded myself.
After 10 rounds getting it sighted in I got this grouping. The one in the bullseye was the one shot I got after I made a tweak following the 6 round group in the upper area. Unfortunately it began raining so I had to packup without completing another group, but I'm impressed with the consistency. Only frustration is that chambering is being an absolute It basically won't chamber fully unless the magazine has 3 or fewer rounds in it.
Been thinking about the concealed carry holster situation a bit.
My girlfriend's daughter is deathly scared of guns. She hates that her dad has one when they stay with him. Doesn't matter that he is a (mostly) responsible guy....she just hates them and *already* has significant anxiety issues (general, social, you name it).
I got thinking that I wouldn't want to spark her anxiety if I can help to avoid it.
An IWB holster could be a possibility I suppose but I seriously do not want to buy more and bigger pants, nor do I really want to put it in the small od my back.
So....
Anyone have any experience with Sneaky Pete holsters?
Based on how big a security nine is in the hand, that "cell phone" is going to be a huge cell phone, the size of which nobody has seen since the late 1980s. That gun is 7ish inches long, and 5 inches tall. (Even the compact version is about 6.5 inches long, but only 4.5 tall). Point is, they are not SMALL by any means, and thus, they are less easily concealed.
I don't carry so take my advice with a great grain of salt, but some of the 9mm pistols get about 6x5 (the security 9 is like 7.3x5inches long but the s9 compact is more like 6.5 by 4. A couple taurus guns and things like the pico are similar sized smaller options, .380's get smaller still.
The NAA .380 gaurdian is under 5 inches x 3.5, and the microrevolvers are about 4 inch by 2 inch. (note some of those have foldable handles).
Point is , you can get a LOT smaller than a security nine, and still have a fair bit of firepower (especially if you put an extra magazine or two in the little fannypack carry pouch)
It wouldn't be hard to carry a microrevolver style .22mwr with a knife as backup (or even a leatherman tool knife blade as backup) and have nearly no "burden of concealed carry" compared to something full sized like a security nine (which , really, is kind of the gun a cop would carry on duty in full uniform in his big holster, as far as size goes, its not built to conceal.)
I could have sworn I replied to this topic. Shrug.
Shoulder holsters suck. A lot. Especially against bare skin.
A good quality IWB holster under a loose top is often enough. I carried a G26 or a G17 that way for years to work (like 23) and was only made after about 20. My wife even spent the first 8 years of our marriage asking me if I had my gun on me. She eventually stopped asking after the reply was 100% yes.
I'd suggest getting a smaller gun like an LCP or a Glock 43x or a Glock 48. Thinner is key to easy concealability.
Shoulder holsters suck. A lot. Especially against bare skin.
Well, yes. Which is why I'm sure everybody who does carry like that has an undershirt.
Yet he failed to mention one so I was just reminding him. If you're going to make wardrobe adjustments to accommodate your carry there are better ways of doing that.
I don't have any experience with the Sneaky Pete holsters, but use an IWB myself. They have their drawbacks, but I haven't found pants size in and of itself to be an issue if it wasn't one already. Definitely wound not recommend shoulder holsters for a variety of reasons (I have one picked up for costume giggles, they're awful in my experience for actual carry).
The way I carry concealed in the summer is to wear cargo shorts. I'm a bigger guy, I carry a Taurus 709, and I have a pocket holster in my cargo short's DEEP pockets. The pockets are large enough that reaching in, grabbing the handle and pulling it out isn't a problem. The pocket is also shallow enough that I don't feel like I'm reaching for my knee through my pants.
The main issue I have with pocket-carry is that you lose the availability of a pocket. With cargo shorts it's less of an issue. I keep my car keys and pistol on the right hip, wallet and phone on the left. Extra mag in the pocket lower down on my right leg.
In the winter I carry my Springfield XDM, and it slips perfectly into my winter coat. No fuss, no muss there.
Shoulder holsters suck. A lot. Especially against bare skin.
Well, yes. Which is why I'm sure everybody who does carry like that has an undershirt.
Yet he failed to mention one so I was just reminding him. If you're going to make wardrobe adjustments to accommodate your carry there are better ways of doing that.
Sorry I wasn't so specific.
Yes, I wear solid undershirts when I wear my button shirts open.
The ladies can only take seeing so much sexy
I kind of thought of cargo shorts/pants...may have to explore that.....may also just have to get *a* holster of some kind and give it a go.
TheMeanDM wrote: Been thinking about the concealed carry holster situation a bit.
My girlfriend's daughter is deathly scared of guns. She hates that her dad has one when they stay with him. Doesn't matter that he is a (mostly) responsible guy....she just hates them and *already* has significant anxiety issues (general, social, you name it).
I got thinking that I wouldn't want to spark her anxiety if I can help to avoid it.
An IWB holster could be a possibility I suppose but I seriously do not want to buy more and bigger pants, nor do I really want to put it in the small od my back.
So....
Anyone have any experience with Sneaky Pete holsters?
It seems like it could be a decent option. The case could be looked at as a phone or knife case, perhaps?
It keeps the gun "out of sight" in a manner of speaking.
Just trying to think of ways to help her avoid having more anxiety on top of what she already experiences.
I also thought maybe a shoulder holster...as I definitely don't mind wearing open button shirts (like in the pic)
Spoiler:
I have used shoulder holsters a lot. Definitely some down sides starting with sweeping yourself every time you draw/holster. However it can be a reasonable holster for full size or large (S&W Mod 29 in my case ).
About 3 weeks ago we had three snakes kill two chicks and eat a crap ton of eggs from the chicken coop and duck coop in a 10 day period. Wife was really upset, especially about the chicks. I keep a .22 rifle outside (in a weatherproof case) near the chicken coop, but it is hard to use in the laying box area since it is long. The .410 shot shells the Judge fires are too much (they would shred the coop). So wife wanted something she could use in the coop to pop the no legged chick killin egg thieves.
About 3 weeks ago we had three snakes kill two chicks and eat a crap ton of eggs from the chicken coop and duck coop in a 10 day period. Wife was really upset, especially about the chicks. I keep a .22 rifle outside (in a weatherproof case) near the chicken coop, but it is hard to use in the laying box area since it is long. The .410 shot shells the Judge fires are too much (they would shred the coop). So wife wanted something she could use in the coop to pop the no legged chick killin egg thieves.
Hence the purchase.
Being a Brit, and therefore poorly educated in the world of guns and reptiles? I’d probably just try twatting them with a shovel?
Being a Brit, and therefore poorly educated in the world of guns and reptiles? I’d probably just try twatting them with a shovel?
Which was my response, despite being an American, with plenty of guns of my own. The German square entrenching tool works wonders on them when you sharpen the blade. Also good for other things, like home defense in a pinch as well. Or axe (shovel?) throwing.
CptJake wrote: Our egg room is barely 3.5 feet wide, and the 18 egg boxes (three high 6 across) take up about 18 of those inches, and the ceiling is about 5 ft.
Existing structure on the property. The 'hang out while not laying' area is probably 20x25 ft.
Ok, yeah, that's what the sharp edge is for on the entrenching tool. Also, damn, I'm taller than the ceiling in that coop. I mean, feth, that's like nipple height on me.
Anvildude wrote: I'm honestly surprised that the chickens aren't dealing with the snakes themselves.
While your typical backyard chicken can and will definitely kill a small snake, they are not going to take on a full grown rattler or cottonmouth. These aren't little garter snakes, they're 4-6 foot long and could easily kill a whole flock if they were inclined.
That said, if you have something like a Malay or Shamo they could actually kill a rattler and maybe survive the experience, but your typical chicken probably will give a big snake a wide berth.
While your typical backyard chicken can and will definitely kill a small snake, they are not going to take on a full grown rattler or cottonmouth. These aren't little garter snakes, they're 4-6 foot long and could easily kill a whole flock if they were inclined.
That said, if you have something like a Malay or Shamo they could actually kill a rattler and maybe survive the experience, but your typical chicken probably will give a big snake a wide berth.
See, around here rattlers only get about 2 to 4 foot (Eastern Massasaugas). And chickens are stupid, they'll give it a go. Which typically means that if we don't get it before the chickens notice it, we'll go from 500 chickens and 1 snake to 495 and bits of snake. They're like bloody piranha when they think they're bigger than the target.
While your typical backyard chicken can and will definitely kill a small snake, they are not going to take on a full grown rattler or cottonmouth. These aren't little garter snakes, they're 4-6 foot long and could easily kill a whole flock if they were inclined.
That said, if you have something like a Malay or Shamo they could actually kill a rattler and maybe survive the experience, but your typical chicken probably will give a big snake a wide berth.
See, around here rattlers only get about 2 to 4 foot (Eastern Massasaugas). And chickens are stupid, they'll give it a go. Which typically means that if we don't get it before the chickens notice it, we'll go from 500 chickens and 1 snake to 495 and bits of snake. They're like bloody piranha when they think they're bigger than the target.
When I was a kid our house cat would anger my mother by bringing home dead animals. One day she screamed as he drug in a baby timber rattler that was about 20 inches long. I have no idea how he killed it without being bitten.
Hunters vs hunters! The rattlers need to draw their head back and uncoil to strike. Cats instinctively strike the neck area normally, so if snek was just plodding along or suning himself he was totally screwed. Snakes hunting techniques don't favor straight up conflict anyway. Thermal and sent are great tools for ambush but it's not super accurate in a classic throw down. If chickens were more raptor like in the kill technique the snakes would by really screwed, but chickens....
When you visit the gun range, is there a set relative distance for effective weapon ranges?
In switzerland most Ranges are standardized , 300 m for assault rifles with iron sights and i believe 50 for handguns?!? But we have a slightly wierd gun culture.
Man, I have not gone shooting in forever. I'm jealous. How far is that, distance wise?
I'm still not inclined to go to my local, relatively cramped range until there is a vaccine, because the types of people that show up at my range are not mask-wearers. I'm dying to go, but I'm not... dying to go. It's not my intent to star a 'rona or political thing here, I'm just saying much like going to the movies, it's a thing I can't do right now.
I am perpetually jealous of you guys, like Captain Jake, that can shoot on their own property. It is my dream.
Unrelated note, but if we get another check this year, I vowed I would finally get myself that deagle. I have gotten so close over the years, but I never have been able to pull the trigger on it because, well, there are many reasons not to get a deagle. This really might be the year, though!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When you visit the gun range, is there a set relative distance for effective weapon ranges?
It is not at all standardized, but it would be very unusual to see a rifle range that was not at least 100 yards\91 meters. That would be considered fairly close for a rifle.
Better ranges are further. I wish we had a 800 yard range around here, but we don't. The longest one in my area - which is members only, so I have not gone - is 400 yards \ 365 meters. That's still not what you would consider far with a rifle.
The range I'm a member at has a number of different ranges on the property. A 50/100 general purpose rifle range, a 200-300/600 yard range (it can be set up for 600 but usually isn't), an indoor rimfire 20 yard range, a 15/25/50 yard handgun range, and some action ranges that are for competition/training/dynamic shooting that are all under 50 yards. Most ranges I've been to in general usually only get out to 100 yards, but that's also generally been in pretty urban areas.
Unrelated note, but if we get another check this year, I vowed I would finally get myself that deagle. I have gotten so close over the years, but I never have been able to pull the trigger on it because, well, there are many reasons not to get a deagle. This really might be the year, though!
Most ranges have set distances for targets, or least demarcations for certain ranges. Usually 25 and 50 meters/yards for pistols. And then the rifle portions will usually be set in increments of 100 meters/yards.
Okay, just stumbled upon this: FK BRNO PSD 7.5FK. Basically a 10mm round necked down to 7.5mm. 2000fps from a 5 inch barrel. Also comes with a 10mm barrel. If you want all you need is a new barrel and mags to shoot 9mm or .40 S&W.
Logistical considerations with ammunition are a major part of gun owning in this moment, or so I am told, and especially I would be suspicious of any ammo manufactory, probably, if they are setting up new production, its going to be the very easy to sell 9mm, and not the very obscure new ammo that nobody has heard much of. So if this gun becomes at all popular, it will likely outstrip its ammo supply.
Well, this ammo wouldn't need a completely new production line. Since its necked down 10mm, you can use existing 10mm casings and put them through the press to reneck them. Then the only proprietary component will be the actual bullet. And since this caliber isn't super popular, and neither is 10mm, the ammo you do produce is not going to be snapped up as quickly.
That said, I'm sure only the company who designed this pistol will be producing it in any quantity because its so niche. Frankly, if I was going to neck down a 10mm cartridge I would probably use bullets from a smaller, but also common, caliber. Maybe 8mm Nambu or some other .32 caliber bullet. 7.5 is weird. Even a 7.62 Tokarev bullet would be more common.
- Tauros Millenium G2 9MM : personal defense
- Ranger Arms (Marlin) 22 M34 : squirrel hunting rifle, passed down from my great grandfather
- Remington 28 Gauge Shotgun (forget which model it is): quail, rabbit, and squirrel hunting, passed down from my wife's grandfather
- Ithaca Featherweight 12 Gauge Shotgun : have hunted doves with it but it has etching on it and was won in a poker game by my grandfather. It sits on a mantle on the house and is nice to look at - Remington 8700 12 Gauge Super Mag : turkey hunting, quail hunting, home defense
- Browning A-Bolt 308 : deer hunting
- Thompson Center Renegade 54 Caliber Muzzleloader : deer hunting
I also have a crossbow as well that I use for deer hunting.
I want to replace the optic on my Scorpion EVO 3 micro S2. I currently have a Fastfire 3 on it, and it's a really nice sight - but it's too small for the frame. I didn't know it would be so small, it really would be best on a pistol. I love everything about it except how small it is.
I have a couple of different candidates for a gun that will be shot pretty close (no magnification needed). My criteria are that I am not - repeat not - shopping solely on budget, I am happy to pay a premium if it is worth it. Nothing by Vortex, as I didn't like their glass. It has to look cool. I want as little body/tube in the way as possible. Additionally, I have astigmatism, to the extent that matters.
MRO
pros: seems to be the least body/tube. I like the big objective window.
cons: a bit expensive.
cons: I am not sure what mount I need for a absolute co-witness on a scorpion. Maybe I could remove the irons and go with a nice low mount?
cons: jesus rifles
Holosun HE510C-GR
pros: I like the looks, and doesn't seem to have a lot of "body" in the way.
cons: I don't know if Holosun is a trustworthy or reliable brand
Eotech XPS2 green
pros: I heard this was good, but man, is it spendy. is the green dot worth an extra hundo?
cons: I've heard they don't have great build quality or last
cons, maybe?: this is where I think astigmatism might be a problem.
Romeo5
pros: Sig is, I think, a good company
pros: not very expensive
cons: I don't like bikini covers
cons: is this really significantly different or better than a Bushnell TRS25, which is even cheaper?
Romeo MSR:
pros: looks very cool
pros: comes in green...
cons: ...for an extra $60
cons: I don't know literally anything about this scope
Bushnell TRS-25
pros: unspeakably cheap
cons: feels cheap, just a hair above airsoft
cons: I don't like bikini covers
cons: they do not look cool
cons: I suspect better scopes have better glass
cons: I own two and one of them flaked out on me after a few years and flickers on and off with recoil
so I have direct experience with this gun and a couple of these optics!
So on my Scorpion, I originally had a TRS-25, because it was cheap, and did co-witness with the irons. It worked, but it had a small eye box and probably could've used a riser, it didn't like getting dropped much causing some weirdness with the dial settings. For $90, it was totally worth it, but it was only $90.
I replaced it with the Holosun 510C (predecessor to the -GR). I put it on the gun three years ago, turned it on, and haven't turned it off. It's kept zero well enough for 50 yard shooting (all I've shot it at the last couple years), haven't needed to replace the battery, takes getting dropped like a champ, has a quick-release mount that positions the sight pretty nicely, and it looks awesome. The sight box is huge, it's really easy to maneuver with the gun, keeping both eyes open, and still maintain an accurate sight picture. It does not however cowitness with the irons. These are also more expensive than they used to be, if you can find them at all they seem to be $310-ish, they used to be available ~$250ish and routinely on sale for as little as $200. I haven't had problems with any of my 510C's, but another basic tube red dot of theirs had to go through a couple rounds of warranty before it worked right, but they have a lifetime warranty like Vortex or Leupold where they'll basically take anything back ever.
The Eotech I don't own but have played with, it's much like the Holosun, just more expensive. Didn't get to test on durability or anything like that.
The Sig optics are actually designed just a few miles down the road from me, but I haven't actually tried either the Romeo5 or MSR much.
MRO's are neat, I think they'd make a great option for a Scorpion, but would be the most expensive option, and I'm not sure they're worth the extra dough if you're not beating it up or doing tons of night vision stuff.
I have an Eotech (red not green) on one of my rifles. If you have an astigmatism you definitely need to wear your corrective lenses when using the Eotech. First time I turned it on I did not have my glasses on and thought the sight was defective it was so blurry. With my glasses on it is perfect, and I love it.
I have the 'Predator' version of the Sig Romeo 5 on my Fostech rifle (so green dot in a green triangle is one of the options on the sight). I too am not a fan of the covers, but they do work, and I do like the sight a lot.
Have a buddy with a couple Holosun sights. He likes them.
Red dot sights are always something that has intrigued me, but I've never taken the jump. I grew up with a strict training in iron sights (never got used to a peep sight though) or a scope for precision shooting.
Call me a fogy, but it took me a while to get used to tritium night sights, although I do kind of like the See-All open sight.
I once asked if buying a cheap one would give me the general experience before shelling out for a decent red dot, but was told the difference is like night and day.
cuda1179 wrote: Red dot sights are always something that has intrigued me, but I've never taken the jump. I grew up with a strict training in iron sights (never got used to a peep sight though) or a scope for precision shooting.
Call me a fogy, but it took me a while to get used to tritium night sights, although I do kind of like the See-All open sight.
I once asked if buying a cheap one would give me the general experience before shelling out for a decent red dot, but was told the difference is like night and day.
I was the same way, then I fired a buddy's AR with an Aimpoint PRO on it.
My Dad is even more Old School. He visited and fired a few of mine with different red dots. He asked for one for Christmas so last year I got him a Vortex for his AR. He loves it.
Ouze wrote:Thanks, guys. The Eotech has take a precipitous drop, and the Holosun has risen quite a bit.
Can you remove that outer metal shroud from the Holosuns? It looks like painting them doesn't void your warranty.
Honestly I'm not sure if you can remove the housing, I can't find the manual but I think you could. Haven't tried it
cuda1179 wrote:Red dot sights are always something that has intrigued me, but I've never taken the jump. I grew up with a strict training in iron sights (never got used to a peep sight though) or a scope for precision shooting.
Call me a fogy, but it took me a while to get used to tritium night sights, although I do kind of like the See-All open sight.
I once asked if buying a cheap one would give me the general experience before shelling out for a decent red dot, but was told the difference is like night and day.
Red dot/Reflex sights are amazing. Once you've got it zeroed, there's no comparison to iron sights. Being able to maneuver a weapon with both eyes open and being able to pull the trigger as soon as the glowing red dot is on the target is awesome. They're not for precision shooting, most of the time the dot itself is 2-4MoA depending on models, so may be larger than groups your rifle is capable of if that's your thing (though so is the front sight post of many rifles), but if all you're shooting for is to hit center-mass on a target at under 300 yards, no other sighting system works as well.
Ouze wrote:Thanks, guys. The Eotech has take a precipitous drop, and the Holosun has risen quite a bit.
Can you remove that outer metal shroud from the Holosuns? It looks like painting them doesn't void your warranty.
Honestly I'm not sure if you can remove the housing, I can't find the manual but I think you could. Haven't tried it
cuda1179 wrote:Red dot sights are always something that has intrigued me, but I've never taken the jump. I grew up with a strict training in iron sights (never got used to a peep sight though) or a scope for precision shooting.
Call me a fogy, but it took me a while to get used to tritium night sights, although I do kind of like the See-All open sight.
I once asked if buying a cheap one would give me the general experience before shelling out for a decent red dot, but was told the difference is like night and day.
Red dot/Reflex sights are amazing. Once you've got it zeroed, there's no comparison to iron sights. Being able to maneuver a weapon with both eyes open and being able to pull the trigger as soon as the glowing red dot is on the target is awesome. They're not for precision shooting, most of the time the dot itself is 2-4MoA depending on models, so may be larger than groups your rifle is capable of if that's your thing (though so is the front sight post of many rifles), but if all you're shooting for is to hit center-mass on a target at under 300 yards, no other sighting system works as well.
There are a couple of tips and tricks you can use for the RDS dot size and precision shooting. Most of my RDS are zeroed on the top of the dot. I know finding the tip of a round item isn't super easy but it can be done. That means you aren't aiming with a ~4 MOA item any more. My RDS on my AK can outshoot me easily. Red Dots are vastly superior to irons for ease of use, speed of use, ability to get a good sight picture without a good cheek weld, use in low light and ability to be target focused in shooting. Literally if you're looking at your RDS you're doing it wrong. Look at your target and get the dot on it.
As for the quality, there are cheaper options but not cheap options. You're paying for what's essentially delicate electronics that will be subject to the recoil impulse and possibly rough handling. About the cheapest you can go is Primary Arms. If you're in the market for "testing" but willing to take the cheapness into consideration then there is nothing wrong with the TRS-25/Primary Arms level of sights. Both will work very well for general use too but once you upgrade to the better sights with better projectors and better glass it is like night and day. Holosun seem to be very solidly placed in the middle of the field. My personal favourite is Aimpoint, having used their sights since the Comp M with a staggering 50 hours battery life. Trijicon are also epic. I've only had bad experiences with Eotech, but those were ~2010 ones. The new ones may be better.
These days though if I was interested in "precision" and "fast" and weight wasn't specifically my issue I'd grab something along the lines of a Short Dot 1-4x scope. This allows Red Dot style use at 1x or 1.1x setting and a 4x for longer range use. With a quick throw lever on there it allows switching quickly. A good budget contender is the Vortex Crossfire II. It sells at around $200. IMHO these are the best of both worlds but YMMV.
When you visit the gun range, is there a set relative distance for effective weapon ranges?
That depends on the range and firearm type.
Outside ranges typically have set range distances as they have rows of target stands or plates.
Inside ranges typically allow you to adjust the distance to whatever you want.
Shooting bays typically allow you to either places the targets at any preferred distance, or place them near the berm, but yourself can be where you want.
Started shooting again last month after taking a month off to keep from getting Covid before the Boy's wedding. Shot an IDPA match and a falling steel match. Fun. Unfortunately with the current bullet bubble hoarding my reserve so mostly dry fire practice.
Silencers. I gather they’re broadly if not completely illegal.
But I equally gather their efficiency is somewhat overstated in popular media.
So my question is......what do you consider the most accurate portrayal of a silenced weapon in movies?
In movies? Almost always unrealistic.
I'd have to re-watch but maybe one of the John Wick movie may have been accurate.
But, it's never silenced. Really what you're asking is how well suppressors work and here's how I'd describe it.
Shooting firearms w/o ear protection can really do a number on your hearing. However, when you use the suppressors, it's still really REALLY loud, but not so loud that you'd wanna wear ear suppressors. There's actually all kinds of demo of this on Youtube.
Silencers. I gather they’re broadly if not completely illegal.
Hrm, not quite. At the federal level in the US, they're controlled as NFA items, but this basically as long as you're willing to do the extra paper and pay $200 to the ATF they're not any legally harder to obtain than anything else, they are banned in some specific states however, but in some other nations they're completely unregulated or aren't any more regulated than normal firearms, and often are mandatory in certain places for hunting (people 2 miles away don't want to hear your gunfire).
But I equally gather their efficiency is somewhat overstated in popular media.
So my question is......what do you consider the most accurate portrayal of a silenced weapon in movies?
Honestly, they're so wildly inconsistently portrayed, and there's so many factors involved in their use (ammunition choice, base weapon platform, suppressor design, etc) that it's hard to say. A manually operated .22lr with a supressor sporting internal rubber baffle wipes firing subsonic ammo is going to be practically impossible to hear, a 9mm handgun with a good suppressor can be safe with subsonic ammo but unsafe with supersonic ammo, and a suppressed short barrel 556 is still going to leave you deafened temporarily without earpro. Movie magic being what it is, it's all over the place
Indeed. If you don't live in a dumb state, like CA or NY, a Suppressor is not too difficult to get. You just file paperwork, pay $200, and wait for it to go through and then you get it. There are even Kiosks you can go to in some places that'll handle all the paper work for you and you can get it done. This is the same process you'd go through to turn a weapon into an SBR as well, minus the needing to engrave the firearm with your name and address.
As Vakathi said, some countries actually mandate the use of a suppressor for hunting.
Frankly, there is no legitimate reason to regulate suppressors. They in no way conceal the fact a gun was fired except at very extreme distances. The main purpose of a suppressor is actually for hearing protection. To make a truly quiet assassins weapon, you need to take some ridiculous steps with the entire gun, not just slap a suppressor on it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So my question is......what do you consider the most accurate portrayal of a silenced weapon in movies?
The best (and closest to accurate) portrayal of suppressors/silencers in film that I have seen is in the 2020 Netflix film Extraction. It's the one with Chris Hemsworth.
Besides all the demonstration videos you can find on YouTube, in terms of an actual movie, I can't think of any other films that get as close to an accurate portrayal as in Extraction.
Also keeping in mind what others have already said: type of firearm, type of ammunition (subsonic or supersonic), model of suppressor/silencer, etc., will all have a significant impact on what a shot from that specific suppressed weapon will sound like.
I apologize this will ramble, as I am throwing my thoughts and memories on the wall to fill the topic answer (with a few decible numbers looked up after "so roughly".
You can look up the decible levels of firearms and see what noises they are similar to silenced or unsilenced. Without a silencer, its an explosion, you can't really fail to hear it, your ears ring (evidence of hearing loss that is likely permanent) if you lack ear protection, the boom can shake the glass on the stall in which you fire, and can be felt, physically felt, as a shockwave. Big hunting pistols do this too, or big game rifles. Or high powered magnum shell shotguns in a confined space. Short barreled firearms like personal defense weaponry (pdw) often do this as well, because they are usually firing bullets made for much longer barreley guns, and the powder burn is not complete by the time it hits the air. So you are shooting a cloud of finely ground up explosive into the air, and making the worlds smallest fuel-air boom analog, each bullet. But I do totally digress. Long barrel with slow bullet built for shorter barrel is the quietest end of the calculus there.
So for example. shotguns, rifles, and most pistols fall broadly in the 140 to 160 decible range. (140 is the rough threshold of pain. 60ish is a conversation). This is difficult to measure as the noises they make are often very brief, and will throw some mearsuring devices for a loop trying to get the area under a curve that is too short in width, so to speak. Subsonic .22 lr about 120. Full sonic .22lr (a tiny, weak bullet) is 140. 6 decibls per double, so that's 6 times louder.
So roughly. 120 .. loud noisy environment. eg, noisy bar or disco dance hall. 130 .. air raid siren 140 .. front row of a rock concert. 150 .. vibrates your chest cavity hard 160 .. if sustained, permanent and irreversible hearing loss to include eardrum rupture. 164 .. for a VERY brief time .. a 357 magnum pistol firing. 170 this is a howitzer cannon being fired. I am not sure if its possible to make such a noise completely safe with earpro alone. So ... LOUD.
Silencers reduce the noise level. Usually by 20 or 30 decibels of supression, which moves you from the "quiet" noise of a 357 to the "quiet" noise of an air raid siren going off. This will, however, not cause the same hearing loss in yourself or your downrange opponent.
Good ear protection will do about 30 decibles by itself (I mean, soft foam inserts beneath outer ear "muff" style earpro) .. so you can pretty much go from "I just caused permanent hearing loss" to "wow, k, that was loud and I felt it vibrate my body but my ears are ok" by putting on earmuffs/plugs. Don't trust just one layer of the stuff -- earplugs can get out of place, earmuffs can be not quite tight. You may scratch your hand to your ear just when Roscoe fires his .454 casull next to you. Good to have 2 layers. But I digress.
Silencers reduce the decibel levels far more on "quieter" rounds that don't break the sound barrier. For example, the silencerco omega reduces a .308 down to about 133 decibles, but a blackout with subsonic ammunition (that's an EXTREMELY similar sized bullet moving rather slower) all the way down to 117. Many rifle rounds that are supersonic will make the sonic boomlet on leaving the silencer anyway, which somewhat is stealth defeating, while heavier, slower bullets can be shushed far more effectively. Lightest bullets need much more (Ke = mvsquared/2, after all) speed to have effect ... and you can't hide the sonic boom from the shot, when you fire something like a 22/250 at ... I don't even know, about 4000 fps? Its fast. And tiny. and thus, loud no matter if the gun is quieted.
The legendary de lisle carbine gets a bit quieter than that, with a massive silencer the length of the gun itself, firing a slow moving .45 acp round down to 89 decibels or so. (if I remember right), which is below what most people recognize as a gunshot. Its more like someone dropped a small piece of lumber off in the woods, or a twig broke loudly. Its still louder than people talking by 25 db. In modern shooting, subsonic shells from a .22lr of some sort with a honking big silencer on it CAN be very quiet, almost delisle quiet. (the delisle used what it did for wartime availability. As I remember, some guy just up and invented the thing on his own time and handed if off to the british military out of a sense of patriotic pride/duty. Since .45 was less than 1100 feetpersecond (or 343ish mps for you Euros), it was a big, slow round, and the carbine was far longer than the pistols it usually had its powder optimized to burn up in the length of. Point is, you can also fire a subsonic round through a fairly large .22lr calibrated supressor and get a soudn that is fairly close to the sound of a delisle.
When you get into shush ranges, you end up looking for a bolt action rifle ... it makes no noise because it won't reload by slamming the internal mechanism back and forth. The delisle carbine was also a bolt action .45 acp, so it was a big, heavy, slow, subsonic round shot through a silencer almost the length of a normal rifles' barrel. Which you could then reload very quietly while the germans tried to figure out if their friend had just fallen or what...
Anyway. The best common representaiton of a silenced round would be, perhaps, taking a large book such as people sit on the table to impress their friends with pictures of Machu Pichu or such, and slamming it down ont he table. BAM. Its a brief sound and its loud, and you can't really go "gosh, that sure was a noisy cricket chirp" because the table presumably makes a lot of noise. But... you didn't damage your ears, you didn't lose hearing, your ears won't ring and you won't be temporarily deafened by the blast.
A really quiet .22lr suppressor can shave about 45 decibles off your noise level. A .22lr firing ammunition below the speed of sound probably is aroudn 120 decibles to start with. Special ammunition (like 60 grain aquila "sniper" subsonic ammunition) is built to weigh more by about 50 percent than a normal .22 round, and thus, to require less speed to have impact. You can make that pretty quiet (an ambulance siren is about 120 decibels, incidentally, of course, the sound has a short duration).
60 grain aquila 22lr is already shush by comparison, a slow round moving through an appropriate barrel, which (you REALLY want a bolt action for that) should be a 9 to 1 twist, not a 16 to 1 (or the big bullet will tumble sideways and destroy your silencer's insides, removing all hope of quiet or accuracy.
But if you set it up right, you basically have built a close analog of the delisle carbine in .22lr form. Squirrels need fear you, for your neighbors won't hear you.
In the UK, there are no restrictions on sound moderators for air rifles as far as I know.
And sound moderators for firearms are just controlled in the same way as the firearms themselves, i.e. you need to add them to your firearm certificate.
Got my SVT 40 two days ago, love it. Though with Sellier & Bellot ammunition the relatively weak powedr charge tends to cause a few incidents and forces you to shoot at 100m with sights at 200m.
I have a suppressor that I run on a .300blk SBR - which was a cartridge that was designed to be suppressed, so is one of the best cases. It's still very audible even with subsonic ammo - there is a lot of racket from the action cycling, as it's a semi-auto. The real perk is I don't need to wear my hearing protection.
If I'm shooting a plate (i'm not here), that is now the loudest sound.
Whoever said Extraction earlier, I think that was about right for what he was running. Definitely not that little pfft pfft you see in the movies.
The John Wick movies usually have pretty accurate gunplay, but sadly the suppressors aren't included in that. Like the hallway scene where they're having their suppressed pistol fight and people are oblivious.
Grey Templar wrote: The John Wick movies usually have pretty accurate gunplay, but sadly the suppressors aren't included in that. Like the hallway scene where they're having their suppressed pistol fight and people are oblivious.
Hahaha I forgot about that one.
As good as the handling is there are a load of issues with the ballistics of the movie, unfortunately. JW1 was pretty damn kick ass though.
The level of suppression is directly related to ballstics. You have to keep the bullets subsonic to keep things really quiet. But even something like a rifle length integrally suppressed PCC isn't going to be movie quiet.
This is a suppressed 9x19mm rifle. There are obviously limitations from my recording equipment but its really about as quiet
as you can get something in 9mm. Pistol suppressors aren't as good for various reasons, internal volume, powder burn percentage, First Round Pop, if they are shot wet or dry,
the presence or deterioration of baffles and the like.
My 15-22 works quite well with sub-sonics
This is with some 5.56 and 7.62 AR's in the background. The ping is a hanging plate at 75m. So a little pop, klackity klackity from the bolt and the ping. Quieter than the center fire
rounds but not even movie quiet at 40gr 800fps. Hardly a combat load. Suppressing a center fire, especially a super sonic one isn't nearly as effective. It does still have real world
uses but it isn't anywhere as quiet as Hollywood.
Grey Templar wrote: I doubt it was the only consideration. Of more importance was probably its availability and how light and compact it was.
It wasn't for the accuracy or reliability, that's for certain. Most people I've talked to who used both preferred the Thompson over the M3. Fewer accidental discharges and more bullets actually hitting the target.
The only thing that ultimately mattered was that Thompsons started out at $200 a pop when the war started, and even though the price went down, it was never less than like $45, and even then that wasn't until the war was almost over.
I'd be surprised if it even cost 10 bucks to turn out a grease gun.
Ouze wrote: The only thing that ultimately mattered was that Thompsons started out at $200 a pop when the war started, and even though the price went down, it was never less than like $45, and even then that wasn't until the war was almost over.
I'd be surprised if it even cost 10 bucks to turn out a grease gun.
Except that Delta Force was founded in, IIRC, 1977. WW2 costs were not a relevant thing for their choices in firearms, and the last M3A1s were produced for Korea, though they were still used by drivers into the Gulf War. I'm given to understand that they switched fairly quickly to the HK MP5.
The MP5 is superior in so many ways over the other SMG choices at the time it's really a no brainer. And even today it is difficult to justify other SMGs over it.
HK found that out when they released the UMP thinking it would replace the MP5 for sales. People really didn't see any need to change. I mean, nothing wrong with the UMP, but when you're already got a good thing going...
What I read was that they were surplus weapons put to use in the early days when the military bigwigs didn't want to bless them with funding. The pre SOCOM days were very different.
trexmeyer wrote: What I read was that they were surplus weapons put to use in the early days when the military bigwigs didn't want to bless them with funding. The pre SOCOM days were very different.
Sounds about right. The training film they used at the time said that the M3A1 was superior to the Thompson for accuracy (it's not) and other SMGs just aren't mentioned at all. So I'm guessing that the question did arise in the ranks as well.
Thats not a bad choice. Really, it seems like the main consideration for a CCW should be the width of the weapon as thats the main thing that makes it difficult to conceal. Ideally, you want something just above an inch wide IMO.
SemperMortis wrote: Going to be getting a daily CC pistol. What is everyone's recommendations? I'm leaning towards the Sig P365 but I am open to alternatives.
Walking around all day with an AR-15 just seems a bit silly
It depends on where you live and what's available. The P365 is a solid choice.
But, allow me to offer a different idea. The Glock 43X. It's a slimline pistol with 10 rounds OEM magazines, but you can get 15 round flush fit mags that do require a metal mag release replacement for the OEM part but 15 rounds, small package, light slim. https://shieldarms.com/s15
SemperMortis wrote: Going to be getting a daily CC pistol. What is everyone's recommendations? I'm leaning towards the Sig P365 but I am open to alternatives.
Walking around all day with an AR-15 just seems a bit silly
It depends on where you live and what's available. The P365 is a solid choice.
But, allow me to offer a different idea. The Glock 43X. It's a slimline pistol with 10 rounds OEM magazines, but you can get 15 round flush fit mags that do require a metal mag release replacement for the OEM part but 15 rounds, small package, light slim. https://shieldarms.com/s15
I'm leaning towards the P365, but I really wanted a slightly bigger gun, grip wise that is. And i hate the extender kit that the 365 has.
I was looking at a P365 for CC as well, but everything I've seen about it looks like the grip is small, probably too small as I my hands are a bit larger than average. The grip on my 629 is too perfect, but it leaves a massive imprint and I'd rather have a semi for CC.
I was looking at a P365 for CC as well, but everything I've seen about it looks like the grip is small, probably too small as I my hands are a bit larger than average. The grip on my 629 is too perfect, but it leaves a massive imprint and I'd rather have a semi for CC.
Kind of lost.
That is how I am as well, i have larger than average hands and the P365 just doesn't fit. I'm going to hit the gun store later this week I hope, i'll let you know if i find any I like, since we share a similar problem lol
Try a S&W Shield with the extended magazine. If you like the feel ditch the weird magazine gap filler thing and get an extended magazine well for the compact shield from Sampson Manufacturing. Making little guns bigger one accessory at a time.
IF you are in the USA, go to a gun show. There will be a dozen venders or more (at dulles each time, there are several hundred) and each may have a hundred different gun types available for you to pick up and feel how it fits your hand.
That being said, I recommend looking at fairly cheap guns for anyone who isn't certain that THIS or THAT gun is the one they really, really want or need. Like a taurus G2S (the slimmer, single stack versino of the taurus G2C 9mm pistol) is a fairly conceal friendly weapon and about 220 bucks, whereas you can spend three times that on some of its near competitors and end up going "meh, I just don't like this one." a few test fires later.
If you can find a range that rents guns, by all means go to it and blow through some ammo and an hour trying different ones out, before you buy one (that may take a couple months looking to pick up in the current market anway.). You may find this one or that one is well fitted to your hand, that you had not htought of at all, you may discover this other one's trigger is not your best friend, you may find some other prospect one kicks like a mule, or feels cheaply made to you, or you don't like the sights on it. Whatever!
One of the "Pie in the Sky" wish list guns wanted was some kind of 50BMG rifle. They always seemed to be outside my disposable income.... until now. Serbu now has a single shot 50bmg for just over $1000
Dukeofstuff wrote: IF you are in the USA, go to a gun show. There will be a dozen venders or more (at dulles each time, there are several hundred) and each may have a hundred different gun types available for you to pick up and feel how it fits your hand.
That being said, I recommend looking at fairly cheap guns for anyone who isn't certain that THIS or THAT gun is the one they really, really want or need. Like a taurus G2S (the slimmer, single stack versino of the taurus G2C 9mm pistol) is a fairly conceal friendly weapon and about 220 bucks, whereas you can spend three times that on some of its near competitors and end up going "meh, I just don't like this one." a few test fires later.
If you can find a range that rents guns, by all means go to it and blow through some ammo and an hour trying different ones out, before you buy one (that may take a couple months looking to pick up in the current market anway.). You may find this one or that one is well fitted to your hand, that you had not htought of at all, you may discover this other one's trigger is not your best friend, you may find some other prospect one kicks like a mule, or feels cheaply made to you, or you don't like the sights on it. Whatever!
Yep, US based. At the moment every gun range is closed because apparently covid spreads at an open air range, but not at walmart. Damnedest thing.
Here's a question: anyone have a Winchester 97 riot? I'm eyeballing one, but I'd like feedback from people who've used one, and a real Winchester, not that Norinco 97 BS.
SemperMortis wrote: Yep, US based. At the moment every gun range is closed because apparently covid spreads at an open air range, but not at walmart. Damnedest thing.
I think that's going to vary wildly depending on your state. In Iowa, there are no restrictions. In IL, which had tighter protections against covid, gun stores and ranges were and are considered "essentially businesses" as they provide training to off duty cops and provide ammo to them. My home (indoor) range is in IL, and it's been open the entire time.
cuda1179 wrote: One of the "Pie in the Sky" wish list guns wanted was some kind of 50BMG rifle. They always seemed to be outside my disposable income.... until now. Serbu now has a single shot 50bmg for just over $1000
I saw that one and I was pretty underwhelmed to be honest. Yeah, it's a .50 for less than $8.000 but I saw a video on it, and it's kinda lame. Relatively short barrel, you need to partially disassemble the breach to remove the case... and you need pliers to get the case out.
I do like their semi quite a bit, but 8x the price. Sigh.
If you absolutely must have a 50 on a budget, it checks the box for sure, but for me - who just wants a 50 for the cool factor - this doesn't have a lot of the cool factor.
.
. But is it better than a good old fashioned 12 gauge slug? What's the muzzle velocity and effective range on those bad boys?
