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Any of you AK guys seen the new Zastava ZPAP M70? The most recently released version has a chrome lined barrel and bulged front RPK-style trunnion for only like $30 more than the previous non-chrome lined, non-RPK-style trunnion. Seems like one of the best new AK imports we've seen in awhile, particularly at that price point. WASR prices have been skyrocketing so the new ZPAP is actually cheaper at some places than the current batch of WASRs.

Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.

I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.

But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.

Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.

But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

Hordini wrote:Any of you AK guys seen the new Zastava ZPAP M70? The most recently released version has a chrome lined barrel and bulged front RPK-style trunnion for only like $30 more than the previous non-chrome lined, non-RPK-style trunnion. Seems like one of the best new AK imports we've seen in awhile, particularly at that price point. WASR prices have been skyrocketing so the new ZPAP is actually cheaper at some places than the current batch of WASRs.

They're definitely intriguing. They're going to be heavier than a WASR and other AKM clones, and have fewer furniture options, but aside from that they look like a great value in the current market.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.

I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.

But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.

Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.

But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

I don't have any direct experience with it, but there are definitely some big honking hunting revolvers out there, some truly absurdly huge in gargantuan cartridges, and I know S&W makes at least one model with a bipod Most of what I've heard is looking for a greater challenge than using a rifle, but hopefully Kayback and others can expand more on it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.

I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.

But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.

Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.

But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

Because they can.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

It Depends :p

Seriously though that's a Raging Bull in .454 Casull. It fires a 300 grain projectile at almost 1600 fps. (You can get other loads but that's what I can get here). This produces ~1800ft/lbs or ~2500J of energy. While energy isn't the be all and end all of killing power by comparison my AK-103, shooting M43 standard 122 grain bullets at 2300fps produces ~1500ft/lbs or ~2100J. In practical terms it is more powerful than an AK-47, shot for shot. It is just shy, in terms of energy, of the popular .308 Winchester hunting round.

(for comparison a .45 ACP is 230gr@850fps for 350ft/lbs and a standard 9mm is 124gr@1150fps for 360ft/lbs. so you can see this thing is a monster.)

But because it is a pistol you simply don't have the range of a rifle. The mechanics of aiming, the design profile and weight distribution of the bullet and the sights force you to get close. Getting close to game is hard. I can get within 300m of an animal easily. I can get within 150m with effort. Getting within 25m is hard. If I can get into a good position to kill an animal with a pistol I've done a good job. BUT because I'm practical I want to make sure if I shoot an animal it knows about it so I chose a really big gun. Realistically if I hit an animal at 25m with a .308 it is going to know about it too.

I have only successfully used it against feral hogs. Something I'd use a shotgun for normally because feral hogs are generally in thick vegetation and you have to get close to shoot them. I've taken it to a hunting area with antelopes but haven't managed to get into a good position. I'm just not that good yet and I don't want to shoot an animal just to shoot it. I can buy game meat if I want it.

There isn't anything wrong with using a rifle for hunting, that just isn't for me.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I was chambering each round of the 458 by hand. Stick it in the chamber, point at the ground facing down range, drop the bolt carrier, then set up on target.

Well. I dropped the bolt this one time. One hand was dropping the bolt. The other was holding the buttstock. BOOOM! That round I had just chambered discharged right into the ground 5 feet in front of the benches. Fortunately, nobody was downrange or near the muzzle.

I believe what happened was that the vibration from the very heavy bolt caused the trigger to vibrate enough to drop the hammer. The trigger on my AR does have a very very short traverse, only 1/8th of an inch to fire. I had not had the safety engaged with that or any of the previous 5 rounds I had fired when I chambered them. But now I know to always have the safety engaged when chambering the SOCOM.

The rifle being pointed downwards when this happened, and the rifle being hand-loaded, are both clues. ARs have free-floating firing pins. If your .458 ammo has soft primers (typical for civilian ammo- the AR15 was designed around milspec with comparatively hard primers), the inertia from dropping the bolt directly onto a round (rather than feeding from a magazine) could have imparted enough energy to the firing pin to set it off.

I doubt any vibration could release the hammer; if that were the case you'd likely be having vibration from the gun actually firing cause problems with the disconnector.

Should it happen again while the safety is engaged, you'll have your answer. I would suggest not single-loading directly into the chamber; at the very least because it's hard on your extractor.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

Handguns usually suck for accuracy at a distance because they're harder to stabilize, and because pistol iron sights have a very short sight radius. If you can brace a handgun on a bench rest/hunting stand/convenient tree, and have decent optics, then you can get rifle-like accuracy at typical hunting distances (< 50 yards).

It'll always be easier to use a rifle, regardless of range. But many states in the US have different seasons for different types of weapon (bow/crossbow/pistol/shotgun/rifle), so having a suitable pistol can open up additional opportunities to hunt. There is also the matter of personal preference/challenge.

Keep in mind that hunters are not using, like, bog-standard 9mm/.45 combat handguns. They're typically using high-powered magnum revolvers (or sometimes magnum semi-autos, though those are much rarer), typically fitted with either a scope or red dot sight.

Me, in real time, reading the first part of Kayback’s response? Think the head explosion from Scanners!

Second bit was an excellent explanation!

Ohhh. Good to know. I’ll be mindful when chambering in the future. Good thing my hand loads weren’t havin issues chambering normally

Using a pistol for hunting is several things. One is as an emergency second weapon in case you have to fend off the charge of a large, dangerous wild animal (this happened at least once to an uncle of mine, who dropped his suddenly useless feeling light varmint gun, pulled out a 454 casul pistol, and shot a boar that was otherwise likely to gut him or another of the hutners he was with. If I were hunting, I would probably have something like this as a sidearm available just in case of suddenly finding out that I had surprised a couple while hogs.

In places like Alaska, hunters often carry such a big revolver as the 454 casull or the smith and wesson 500 or 460 (these are high power, all three!) or perhaps a very hot loaded 45 long colt in a blackhawk ruger, in case they are suddenly faced with a hungry, charging grizzly or polar bear. While black bears, the smaller animals in the southern climates will flee if wounded, a grizzly or polar (close relatives and quite aggressive) will continue to charge you and rip you into little bite sized pieces (which are, I believe, like 6 to 10 inches for a mouth that big) and then proceed to eat your corpse. There are many larger caliber and powerful revolvers that can fill this bill. Ruger even makes one called "the Alaskan" that comes in several sizes, to include the massive 480 ruger round. You might never draw it if you are out hunting sheep, but if your snark turns out to be a boogum? Its as good as a vorpal blade. B L AM several times in a row without having to work the mechanism to recock a big rifle, with the bear charging on you (remember they are ambush predators) from 40 or fewer feet away.

Some people hunt with very long barreled pistols with higher power rounds in them for the I guess ease of carrying, and figure that hunting in densely forested terrain is a bit unlikely to need them shooting at ranges beyond where they can put a pistol round on goal reliably. I suppose because of my uncle's history with his gun (it was a very large caliber freedom arms gun, a revolver, I believe). Also, you can annoy people in the lanes next to you in gun ranges, as they physically vibrate in the shockwaves some of these monstrous pistols make.

There is actually a pretty substantial sub-culture of hunters which revolve(heh) around hunting with pistols.

Pretty much all of the massive magnum pistols that exist are specifically designed for hunting. 500 S&W, 45 Long Colt, 454 Casul, and the few revolvers which are chambered in actual rifle calibers like 45-70.

They're not practical for anything other than hunting and target shooting.

45 long colt is basically a .45 acp in a revolver format -- it can also be loaded much more powerful than the .45 acp, and some less powerful (called cowboy loads as they mimic a lower powered black powder loadout). So its one of the quite versatile rounds, I think, suitable for shootouts and grizzley bears, depending. While it may not seem formidable down at only 850ish fps, its still a big @#$% bullet.

There is also a devoted pistol hunting genre on the other end of the spectrum. Hunting extremely small game with a 22Lr pistol is fairly common. I have a Ruger MkIII with an 8-inch slab side barrel that I've been wanting to rabbit shoot with for quite some time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Perusing the thread, and saw Kayback shared a picture of a Hunting Pistol, specifically a Revolver.

I’ve always associated Hunting with Rifles. It’s just....the thing. Maybe a double barrelled shotgun, for wildfowl.

But a pistol? To my uneducated mind, it just seems odd.

Trying to choose my next words carefully, as a) I’ve had a bit to drink tonight and b) I’m not looking to upset anyone, at all.

But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

In my home state, shotguns (not rifles) are actually the most common guns for hunting deer. Up until a few years ago, it was illegal to hunt deer with a rifle at all, with the limited exception of hunting done out of season with property destruction tags. For gun hunting in season you were limited to shotguns using rifled slug ammunition or a rifled shotgun "deer slayer" barrel. A few years ago they started allowing rifles with straight walled cartridges only, many of which are actually rifles chambered for handgun rounds like .357 and .44 magnum.

 Hordini wrote:


In my home state, shotguns (not rifles) are actually the most common guns for hunting deer. Up until a few years ago, it was illegal to hunt deer with a rifle at all, with the limited exception of hunting done out of season with property destruction tags. For gun hunting in season you were limited to shotguns using rifled slug ammunition or a rifled shotgun "deer slayer" barrel. A few years ago they started allowing rifles with straight walled cartridges only, many of which are actually rifles chambered for handgun rounds like .357 and .44 magnum.

I guess they are trying to stop people "sniping" at animals? You can get almost as much energy as you want our of a straight walled cartridge, rounds like the 350 Legend or the .450 Marlin attest to that. I've used various lever gun in .357, .45LC and one in .45-70 and think a .454 Casull lever gun would be a handy package.

In my country we have much less restriction on when and how you can hunt. The various times for the years you can hunt encompass all weapons from bows to .338 Lap Mag. We do have an almost universal ban on semi automatics, except in one province IIRC. They are allowed at a National "Federal" level but are banned at a Provincial "State" level except in Mpummalanga IIRC. There is a legal minimum for large animals, .375 H&H. Interestingly enough it has become an almost de-facto requirement to have a suppressor on your rifle if you are hunting here. This is an individual requirement from the game farms to reduce the stress of hunts on the other animals.

Currently our suppressors are unregulated (to a point. Apparently you need to own a firearm that it can be mounted on, but that isn't in the law exactly, grey area) We go through an ATFE background check style application to own the firearm in the first place, but once we do it's game on. I walked into a shop and bought a monocore .22 suppressor just to see how it played. My home brew one was better, albeit bigger. I can go buy one for my AK or my Glock tomorrow if I want. The criminals still don't use them.

Somewhat awkwardly suppressors are regulated at a federal level like full auto machineguns and destructive devices here in the US, despite often being mandated for hunting and certain range activities in many other nations. Originally this was for anti-poaching purposes in the 1930's, but pop culture over time has changed perceptions of them into more nefarious devices.

Yeah, suppressors have other purposes. When we used to fire the AW 50 on the range, we had to use suppressors to reduce the safety trace of the rounds. Luckily I did my shoots before this came in so I got to experience full power.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Somewhat awkwardly suppressors are regulated at a federal level like full auto machineguns and destructive devices here in the US, despite often being mandated for hunting and certain range activities in many other nations. Originally this was for anti-poaching purposes in the 1930's, but pop culture over time has changed perceptions of them into more nefarious devices.

Yeah, in some places suppressors are considered PPE.

Incidentally we also have a large poaching issue here. Very VERY few poaching guns with suppressors are ever recovered. It's mostly a clapped out AK, or for the big ticket items they are straight up using hunting guns like .375 H&H doubles.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

It depends. A lot of people have already covered most of it, but in the forests I hunt in visibility is fairly short, so a rifle does not have as big an advantage over a pistol as you'd think. I did it a few times with a 1745 Tower ('light' my ass, it's a .69 pistol) due to PA's weird muzzleloading laws previously prohibiting anything made after 1804. I got a buck, but my wrists did not thank me.

Kayback wrote:

 Hordini wrote:


In my home state, shotguns (not rifles) are actually the most common guns for hunting deer. Up until a few years ago, it was illegal to hunt deer with a rifle at all, with the limited exception of hunting done out of season with property destruction tags. For gun hunting in season you were limited to shotguns using rifled slug ammunition or a rifled shotgun "deer slayer" barrel. A few years ago they started allowing rifles with straight walled cartridges only, many of which are actually rifles chambered for handgun rounds like .357 and .44 magnum.

I guess they are trying to stop people "sniping" at animals? You can get almost as much energy as you want our of a straight walled cartridge, rounds like the 350 Legend or the .450 Marlin attest to that. I've used various lever gun in .357, .45LC and one in .45-70 and think a .454 Casull lever gun would be a handy package.

My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places where hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.

 Hordini wrote:



My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places were hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.

Ah thanks

 Hordini wrote:


My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places were hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.

Which is kinda dumb. Even handgun calibers are lethal for a couple kilometers if fired into the air so there isn't really any more of a safety concern. Its just a pointless restriction.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


But is using a Pistol for hunting surprisingly practical, or more a sign of the wielder’s skill & confidence? Is a rifle at typical ranges in woods etc kind of overkill? Or, as is always my favourite answe, ‘it depends’?

Still hunting with pistol is a very American and African thing.

Over here where the kind of activity you want to do with your guns dictates the kind of gun you're allowed to have. Basically pistol calibers can't be used for hunting, and hunting weapons are always defined as "long guns", so it just can't be done.

I've only carried a sidearm while hunting in Alaska. Never actually fired it though.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Hordini wrote:


My understanding is that it has to do with safety concerns due to the relatively higher population density in some parts of the state. Also, most of the places were hunting takes place is in or around deciduous forest (with some evergreens) so the range you could get with a high powered rifle isn't really necessary. There are some large fields of course but it's not the kind of place where you would necessarily need something with extremely long range like you might in one of the great plains states or somewhere else out west.

Which is kinda dumb. Even handgun calibers are lethal for a couple kilometers if fired into the air so there isn't really any more of a safety concern. Its just a pointless restriction.

I absolutely agree with you, especially because the end result is most people who gun hunt, hunt with a shotgun with either rifled slugs or a shotgun with a rifled "deer slayer" barrel, so it basically turns the shotgun into a high powered rifle anyway.

Anyone have any experience with the Taraus G2C 9mm? Thinking about purchasing one for home defense since it is pretty affordable and can fit into a small safe (live in an apt.)

 DrGiggles wrote:
Anyone have any experience with the Taraus G2C 9mm? Thinking about purchasing one for home defense since it is pretty affordable and can fit into a small safe (live in an apt.)

That is my Wife's carry pistol. She likes it because it has an external/thumb safety. It is functional. Reasonably accurate a defense ranges, been very reliable so far (probably about 500 rounds through it). We had a female friend who recently decided to get her permit and was shopping for a pistol. We had her and her husband over and had a collection of pistols for her to fire so she could see what she liked and did not. She bought a Taurus G2C because it met all her requirements (safety, accurate, easy to use).

I see it as a tool. Again, it is functional. Not my favorite handgun, but it does what it is supposed to.

 DrGiggles wrote:
Anyone have any experience with the Taraus G2C 9mm? Thinking about purchasing one for home defense since it is pretty affordable and can fit into a small safe (live in an apt.)

It's my current carry pistol. I've put about a thousand rounds though it so far, and it has been utterly reliable. The only downside I've found is that the mags are a little loose when seated, which doesn't affect function but it does let them rattle a little - I wrapped a strip of tape around them and that fixed it permanently.

It's kinda funny, I've dumped as much as $2k into single rifles, which is a fair chunk for me - but I'm still carrying this little $230 pistol as my EDC. I went into this renting a bunch of pistols because I wanted something I would feel comfortable with - assuming I'd wind up with a glock 19 - but this one felt the best to me. It's certainly held up though, and I trust it.

For pleasure shooting, I still love the 1911 but it's a bit of a pain to haul around that full size frame, and the limited round capacity doesn't make it a great option for EDC.

So, my range is back open to normal hours until 9pm, meaning I can actually get there after work (even working from home, I gotta actually work during office hours, and closing at 5 meant no time to go), and its typically deserted except for weekend mornings so social distancing shouldn't be an issue. I'm excited to pew pew again for the first time in weeks. Anyone else getting range time in these days? I'm thinking the K31 needs a trip out there if I can find some ammo in the closet for it.

Never really stopped. Of course I can shoot in my backyard.

#jelly, alas my back yard is a balcony several stories above a major boulevard

I haven't been to a range in weeks, so I'm feeling the itch, especially now that I've got my car back in working order after it sat for a couple months without being driven. I've also been good about not obtaining any new toys however, I'm a little proud of myself for that, but slaying some paper is definitely at the top of my list of things to do this week

Any advice on holsters for concealed carry of a ruger Security 9...?

Just don't know much about holsters and manufacturers.

Will be thinking of adding either a laser or light/laser combo to it at some point...if that makes a difference too.