The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
It helps if you look at it as primaris having far too human proportions. They don't really look like Astartes in power armour anymore, just humans.
At what point in time did become canon that Astartes are misshapen giants? All the times they are depicted without power armour they look like giant muscular men, but with good proportions.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
It helps if you look at it as primaris having far too human proportions. They don't really look like Astartes in power armour anymore, just humans.
At what point in time did become canon that Astartes are misshapen giants? All the times they are depicted without power armour they look like giant muscular men, but with good proportions.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
It helps if you look at it as primaris having far too human proportions. They don't really look like Astartes in power armour anymore, just humans.
At what point in time did become canon that Astartes are misshapen giants? All the times they are depicted without power armour they look like giant muscular men, but with good proportions.
They're almost always shown as inhumanly broad.
Are you sure? They have always looked like normal muscular big humans to me:
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
It’s not a question of how many heads high they are. It’s the fact that you could only fit into terminator armour if you have no abdomen and your arms come out of the sides of your head.
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
It’s not a question of how many heads high they are. It’s the fact that you could only fit into terminator armour if you have no abdomen and your arms come out of the sides of your head.
Oh my no, the pauldrons are well above where the actual shoulder rests, more or less at the very bottom of the armour's "shoulders". The shield generators are housed above the arms and take up most of the space within the pauldrons.
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
It’s not a question of how many heads high they are. It’s the fact that you could only fit into terminator armour if you have no abdomen and your arms come out of the sides of your head.
Oh my no, the pauldrons are well above where the actual shoulder rests, more or less at the very bottom of the armour's "shoulders". The shield generators are housed above the arms and take up most of the space within the pauldrons.
That doesn't actually make any difference to what he's saying, the shoulderpads exaggerate the flaw but they're not responsible for it - to fit into Terminator armour you'd have to be bent forward at an unnatural angle in the middle of your spine and your arms would have to be coming out the top of your shoulderblades; or else as he said you'd have to be a mutant with no abdomen and arms growing out of your collarbone. Terminators are perhaps the worst example of the old SM range's atrocious proportions, even taking "heroic scale" into account(and point of fact, GW's modern range is closer to 6.5 heads than 5 heads, thank jeebus as the older models were often utterly cartoonish).
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
It’s not a question of how many heads high they are. It’s the fact that you could only fit into terminator armour if you have no abdomen and your arms come out of the sides of your head.
Oh my no, the pauldrons are well above where the actual shoulder rests, more or less at the very bottom of the armour's "shoulders". The shield generators are housed above the arms and take up most of the space within the pauldrons.
Then how to you account for the fact that there’s no room for an actual human torso in there?
To me, the primaris have highlighted just how awful the old marines were. Unfortunately I hate the old minis and hate the new fluff.
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
It’s not a question of how many heads high they are. It’s the fact that you could only fit into terminator armour if you have no abdomen and your arms come out of the sides of your head.
Oh my no, the pauldrons are well above where the actual shoulder rests, more or less at the very bottom of the armour's "shoulders". The shield generators are housed above the arms and take up most of the space within the pauldrons.
Then how to you account for the fact that there’s no room for an actual human torso in there?
To me, the primaris have highlighted just how awful the old marines were. Unfortunately I hate the old minis and hate the new fluff.
Space marines are quite a bit broader in build than a regular human.
The biggest problem with the Terminators, just like normal marines, are the legs, not the arms. They are a little bent forward, yes, but it isn't as bad as you are depicting it. Or at least isn't worse than the horrible proportions of the basic marine figure.
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
It’s not a question of how many heads high they are. It’s the fact that you could only fit into terminator armour if you have no abdomen and your arms come out of the sides of your head.
Oh my no, the pauldrons are well above where the actual shoulder rests, more or less at the very bottom of the armour's "shoulders". The shield generators are housed above the arms and take up most of the space within the pauldrons.
Then how to you account for the fact that there’s no room for an actual human torso in there?
To me, the primaris have highlighted just how awful the old marines were. Unfortunately I hate the old minis and hate the new fluff.
Space marines are quite a bit broader in build than a regular human.
Youve just shown me a drawing which fixes all of the weird proportions of the miniatures.
FrothingMuppet wrote: The Space Wolf chaps suffers from random scale issues - which I think is exacerbated by Primaris scaling showing up quite clearly all the flaws in the proportions of the old Marines.
These guys heads are huge and oddly placed inside the collar of
the Terminator Armour, which itself looks smaller/sleeker than traditional TDA. The weapons are offscale to the bodies etc.
Primaris, for all thr grumbling about re-scaling Marines, have made it hard for me not to look at newer old Marines and notice their off proportions
I never understand these 'proportions' gripes. The average adult human is 7.5 'heads' tall. Most miniatures in this scale are five-ish heads tall. The proportions are wildly 'wrong' across the board in order to make details recognizable and paintable.
It’s not a question of how many heads high they are. It’s the fact that you could only fit into terminator armour if you have no abdomen and your arms come out of the sides of your head.
Oh my no, the pauldrons are well above where the actual shoulder rests, more or less at the very bottom of the armour's "shoulders". The shield generators are housed above the arms and take up most of the space within the pauldrons.
Then how to you account for the fact that there’s no room for an actual human torso in there?
To me, the primaris have highlighted just how awful the old marines were. Unfortunately I hate the old minis and hate the new fluff.
Space marines are quite a bit broader in build than a regular human.
Nice picture, but it's not actually how Terminators look. If you look at an actual model, the armpits are approximately chin height and the head is way too far forward of the shoulder line, like, probably a torso width's too far forward.
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MonkeyBallistic wrote: To me, the primaris have highlighted just how awful the old marines were. Unfortunately I hate the old minis and hate the new fluff.
The thing I hate about the primaris models which I've hated since the first time I saw them is the torso, it just doesn't look right to me.
Not sure if this belongs in this thread, but Forgeworld will have on sale this Friday tickets for next February's Horus Hersey and Necromunda Weekender.
That is assuming if they don't all sell out on pre sale, if you have been last year you should have already had an email about the pre sale, if not give them a ring.
Hmm, HQ slot, +1 attack and wounds for Carab, plus he's venerable but it's an aura buff.
Weapons wise, he basically has a siege drill and a worse alternative to a storm cannon, plus swapped the Melta in the drill for a heavy Bolter which can burn out.
He's nice, but I'd need to see Red Scorpions tactics before completely buying into rejiggering my all-dreadnought army to be red scorpions.
Yes (maybe?), it is, but please just report posts that you feel are against the rules of the site via the "Mod Alert" system rather than 'in thread' - thanks!
Carab seems reasonable though it's weird he forgot how to give himself rerolls to hit. Meh. The death hold is pretty frickin awesome though, image wise.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Carab seems reasonable though it's weird he forgot how to give himself rerolls to hit. Meh. The death hold is pretty frickin awesome though, image wise.
He's not Chapter Master anymore, that's why he doesn't give rerolls.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Carab seems reasonable though it's weird he forgot how to give himself rerolls to hit. Meh. The death hold is pretty frickin awesome though, image wise.
He's not Chapter Master anymore, that's why he doesn't give rerolls.
Weird how removal of title suddenly makes him forget his skills though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Carab seems reasonable though it's weird he forgot how to give himself rerolls to hit. Meh. The death hold is pretty frickin awesome though, image wise.
He's not Chapter Master anymore, that's why he doesn't give rerolls.
Weird how removal of title suddenly makes him forget his skills though.
Has to be the removal of title. Can't possibly be grievous bodily damage and the radical change in his existance and perceptions. Got to be the title.
As much as I like those RS and want to support a regular marine release, £60 for 2 power armour models (even ones that look that good) is too much. £40/£45 minus the entirely superfluous display base and we can talk. Will write to FW to let them know that this display base nonsense is costing them sales, not the nature of the models.
After working on a tiny number of primaris models as my only space marine hobby work in 2017, I can't look at "normal" marine models without instantly noticing the off proportions now even when they're otherwise well done like these. :(
Aye, the only reason I won't be picking them up is because I just can't look at normal marines anymore! Guttered these aren't Primaris size, beautiful sculpts though!
Culln is absolutely stunning! That shot of the Red Scorpion Reiver next to him though! Love the idea that he will just pick (horrendously clamp) you up and point blank evaporate you with the built in heavy bolter.
I'm guessing Fires will explore the introduction of Primaris to the RS, which is what I'm looking forward to the most (aside from my robots obviously) as I have wondered how the RS would view Primaris, since they see themselves as the purest pure specimen of space marines, what happens when some new boys come along who claim and are said to be even purer than them? Jealous, disregard their claim? Are RS Primaris even purer than regular Primaris? Would some see them as less pure and shun them? I must know!
unmercifulconker wrote: what happens when some new boys come along who claim and are said to be even purer than them? Jealous, disregard their claim? Are RS Primaris even purer than regular Primaris? Would some see them as less pure and shun them? I must know!
Terrible fluff shoehorning in the RS fully embracing them is my bet.
After working on a tiny number of primaris models as my only space marine hobby work in 2017, I can't look at "normal" marine models without instantly noticing the off proportions now even when they're otherwise well done like these. :(
Oh my exactly my thoughts, the heads, hand and feet are too big.
Not to mention the impossible hips.
:( :(
unmercifulconker wrote: Aye, the only reason I won't be picking them up is because I just can't look at normal marines anymore! Guttered these aren't Primaris size, beautiful sculpts though!
Culln is absolutely stunning! That shot of the Red Scorpion Reiver next to him though! Love the idea that he will just pick (horrendously clamp) you up and point blank evaporate you with the built in heavy bolter.
I'm guessing Fires will explore the introduction of Primaris to the RS, which is what I'm looking forward to the most (aside from my robots obviously) as I have wondered how the RS would view Primaris, since they see themselves as the purest pure specimen of space marines, what happens when some new boys come along who claim and are said to be even purer than them? Jealous, disregard their claim? Are RS Primaris even purer than regular Primaris? Would some see them as less pure and shun them? I must know!
Unfortunately, the Heavy Bolter gets knackered because of it!
On the Primaris, aye I am looking forward to that. I suspect, they'll judge them with the eye towards the return of a Primarch. Something about seeing it as a sign that they should embrace the new fellas
Elbows wrote: Crab Cake looks like a worse version of a normal Leviathan. I guess he's unique, but I'd take a bog standard Leviathan over him most times.
Ha!
I'm of the opposite opinion - I LOVE this Leviathan 'variant'!
And I think the Leviathan is the best of all the 'Dreadnought' types too...
Elbows wrote: Crab Cake looks like a worse version of a normal Leviathan. I guess he's unique, but I'd take a bog standard Leviathan over him most times.
Ha!
I'm of the opposite opinion - I LOVE this Leviathan 'variant'!
And I think the Leviathan is the best of all the 'Dreadnought' types too...
Almost makes me wish I played Red Scorpions...
Well...you are Alpharius.....so you can play any chapter you want as an infiltrator .
After working on a tiny number of primaris models as my only space marine hobby work in 2017, I can't look at "normal" marine models without instantly noticing the off proportions now even when they're otherwise well done like these. :(
Oh my exactly my thoughts, the heads, hand and feet are too big.
Not to mention the impossible hips.
:( :(
Yeah, I suspect we'll both turn into clones of JudgeDoug... hamfists... hamfists everywhere! And bobbleheads! I do think that my prior interest in true scaled models and the subsequent release of primaris models have pretty much soured me on normal marine proportions/models. The only exception would be primarchs as they've always been completely different in scale and proportion from the beginning. I had the same feeling with tau when the more properly proportioned commander suit came out in 5th edition compared with the squat chibi 2003ish suits.
Le sigh, why did this have to be fake it's a stonking good model.
I LOVE the RS dreddy, fantastic looking bling FW. They usually do a good job when it's Power Armour....or Space Marine chapter masters who where poured into relic Leviathan Dreadnought chassis.... any who good work. I like the two RS chumps altho I liked him better as a capt then a ancient.
Edit ok, the War on the leg doesn't look good why can't it be something like Kil Kil Kil or something simple like that?
Looking at the unpainted pictures, "WAR" is painted on and the scroll itself is blank on that knee, ditto with the chest scrolls. Only his name is sculpted onto that other scroll, so you can spam KIL everywhere else.
Door World forgot to post this week's new space marine doors. They made a post on their facebook page and the items are visible in the store once you follow the link, they're just not showing up in the new products list.
When the repulsor came out, I thought GW advertised in one of their youtube videos that the repulsor doors were the same as an existing vehicle? Or am I remembering that wrong?
warboss wrote: When the repulsor came out, I thought GW advertised in one of their youtube videos that the repulsor doors were the same as an existing vehicle? Or am I remembering that wrong?
I remember something like that - not sure if it was Rhino doors with some filling, or Land Raider doors with some trimming...
Chikout wrote: I think it a perfectly fine sculpt. It looks exactly like the Hobbit movie version. It is just the concept upon which it is based is not very good.
This is my problem with nearly 90% of the The Hobbit sculpts from GW and FW. Is not that the sculpt per se is bad, but the quality of the design of the original trilogy is leagues ahead of the ones from the Hobbit.
Chikout wrote: I think it a perfectly fine sculpt. It looks exactly like the Hobbit movie version. It is just the concept upon which it is based is not very good.
The sculpt is good if you compare it to some '90s stuff. But it lacks the finesse of CAD models, because it is so obviously a hand-sculpted piece. The spikes are a dead giveaway.
These Hobbit releases are just in no way on par with the AoS stuff we are seeing and that is tragic.
Chikout wrote: I think it a perfectly fine sculpt. It looks exactly like the Hobbit movie version. It is just the concept upon which it is based is not very good.
The sculpt is good if you compare it to some '90s stuff. But it lacks the finesse of CAD models, because it is so obviously a hand-sculpted piece. The spikes are a dead giveaway.
These Hobbit releases are just in no way on par with the AoS stuff we are seeing and that is tragic.
While I'm not a fan of the sculpt either, the size (if that's a 25mm base) is in no way on par with the AOS stuff you're seeing either. Detail on a 35mm+ fig with exaggerated proportions won't correlate to a true 25-28mm one assuming the hobbit line maintains the scale of the earlier LOTR figs I'm familiar with.
Im not even annoyed by the lack of detail, its the hilariously bad proportions and pose I dislike... he looks like hes a kid wearing his mothers dress...
Chikout wrote: I think it a perfectly fine sculpt. It looks exactly like the Hobbit movie version. It is just the concept upon which it is based is not very good.
The sculpt is good if you compare it to some '90s stuff. But it lacks the finesse of CAD models, because it is so obviously a hand-sculpted piece. The spikes are a dead giveaway.
These Hobbit releases are just in no way on par with the AoS stuff we are seeing and that is tragic.
While I'm not a fan of the sculpt either, the size (if that's a 25mm base) is in no way on par with the AOS stuff you're seeing either. Detail on a 35mm+ fig with exaggerated proportions won't correlate to a true 25-28mm one assuming the hobbit line maintains the scale of the earlier LOTR figs I'm familiar with.
But we are seeing massively detailed models in 25mm proportions from GW. That is because CAD removes so much of the barrier. This is clearly a hand sculpt - you can see how the spikes are just clipped greenstuff. It is wild that FW, known for its high-end super-detailed models, put this mediocrity out. And the paint job is... either lazy or sloppy or both.
All around, I have been really unimpressed with FW lately on everything not HH related.
I like it. The pose is simple but with focus. It's not garish or over the top blinged out like most of the AoS or 40k range. It's a good classic style matching the original LotR range. He immediately struck me as taking inspiration from Amdur from the Easterling range. Which with this being Khamul is very appropriate.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If that's about the size of a Marine I'll buy one for the sole purpose of cutting off the hand/weapon for a Marine model.
It's 28 mm realistic scale. A marine will look like an ape next to him.
Chikout wrote: I think it a perfectly fine sculpt. It looks exactly like the Hobbit movie version. It is just the concept upon which it is based is not very good.
The sculpt is good if you compare it to some '90s stuff. But it lacks the finesse of CAD models, because it is so obviously a hand-sculpted piece. The spikes are a dead giveaway.
These Hobbit releases are just in no way on par with the AoS stuff we are seeing and that is tragic.
While I'm not a fan of the sculpt either, the size (if that's a 25mm base) is in no way on par with the AOS stuff you're seeing either. Detail on a 35mm+ fig with exaggerated proportions won't correlate to a true 25-28mm one assuming the hobbit line maintains the scale of the earlier LOTR figs I'm familiar with.
But we are seeing massively detailed models in 25mm proportions from GW. That is because CAD removes so much of the barrier.
Some would say that's a bad thing, a lot of GW's CAD models these days are more swirly-magic-smokey-clothy-stuff than actual miniature. Regardless, using a poor hand sculpt to trash the whole medium is nonsense, a lot of hand sculpted models put anything produced by GW in any format or medium to shame. CAD can make good models, or bad models, as with anything else it's the talent of the sculptor and how well they understand their medium that matters.
It's a good classic style matching the original LotR range.
This is how I see it as well. It looks like a callback model to the old days.
I myself would prefer it to be up to FW's or AoS' standards but it's not really that bad for what it is. I think the main problem is that it's in such a stark contrast to those qualities.
Some would say that's a bad thing, a lot of GW's CAD models these days are more swirly-magic-smokey-clothy-stuff than actual miniature. Regardless, using a poor hand sculpt to trash the whole medium is nonsense, a lot of hand sculpted models put anything produced by GW in any format or medium to shame. CAD can make good models, or bad models, as with anything else it's the talent of the sculptor and how well they understand their medium that matters.
And this sculptor doesn't get the medium. The static pose alone just is awful. The sculpting looks dated to the late '90s. It is not endearing to me when we have models out there layered in detail even at that scale. I look at my Skitarii and see this and just don't see how this could exist.
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BrookM wrote: I'd make a remark about the paint job, but whenever I do, someone else needs to jump on me and tell me I'm wrong.
Dear god that's tragic, popeye arms arms down to his ankles, legs shorter than his torso, long neck or weird shaped head, godawful pose and the normal FW gak paint job.
I had heard that FW had lost the people who sculpted there character minis but I had not realized it was that bad.
New rule book for lotr sells out at at pre order stage so fw promo that to kill off peoples enthusiasm while they get more printed
Nothing wrong or dated with the pose. He's looking around for the next wizard who needs bashed on the noggin with that club. Better that than some ridiculous leaping about.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Nothing wrong or dated with the pose. He's looking around for the next wizard who needs bashed on the noggin with that club. Better that than some ridiculous leaping about.
The pose is alright. But judging from his proportions, he's gotten bashed on his own noggin quite a bit. To the extent his bonestructure has folded like an accordion.
Problem is, he doesnt look scary, menacing, powerful... he looks like a kid in a halloween costume. Its scary how bad he is, compared to some of the other stuff GW/FW put out. Its like an employee let their 12yo sculpt it...
Tyr13 wrote: ... he looks like a kid in a halloween costume. Its scary how bad he is, compared to some of the other stuff GW/FW put out. Its like an employee let their 12yo sculpt it...
Halloween costume. PERFECT. That is exactly what it looks like. Or a bad LotR cosplay.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I like it. The pose is simple but with focus. It's not garish or over the top blinged out like most of the AoS or 40k range. It's a good classic style matching the original LotR range. He immediately struck me as taking inspiration from Amdur from the Easterling range. Which with this being Khamul is very appropriate.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If that's about the size of a Marine I'll buy one for the sole purpose of cutting off the hand/weapon for a Marine model.
It's 28 mm realistic scale. A marine will look like an ape next to him.
It's still a cool piece for clubbing filthy heretics.
Proportions are bit off but I like pose. Maybe would be bit better if left fist would be pointing with finger at something. Still wouldn't have problem with this. Beats overblinged models at least.
The GW Nazgûl all have simple poses, they aren't leaping or jumping or anything crazy like that, but they all have their momentum.
This Khamul just literally has no pose. He's right there, standing without transmiting any kind of emotion or feeling, with his short legs.
Just look at them, they are bastly superior in proportions and phose (And I'm sure, even in price)
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
This is my favourite one:
Spoiler:
Heck. Just look at the generic Nazgûl. They are basically the same, a specre without a face and a black robe, but they all have their own unique and interesting phoses. Not a single one is in a pose so emotionless as this Khamul from FW:
Spoiler:
This Khamul is a BIG step backwards compared with all the other Nazgul miniatures GW has produced.
Wow. Just staggering how much better those all look over this new guy. The first one in that batch you posted, Galas, is really a gem. So much depth to the armor. Dynamic/menacing poses too - not static. Correct proportions as well!
Thanks for that, Galas. That was the point I was trying to make - but the visuals make the case better.
Think people are going a little overboard on how bad it is. Don't get me wrong, it's not particularly good, it's just not completely irredeemably awful.
I actually think the paint on the black clothing is decent. It's more subtle and realistic than the jarring edge highlights on the older models Galas posted (though the sculpts are far superior).
Yeah, he mostly just needs some platform knees to make his legs the right length. The remaining proportions are actually good as long as you don’t forget he’s wearing massive spiky armour over his sleeves.
Oh and maybe a pose that is less “wait, what was that Keith? Sorry, I wasn’t paying attention…”
Special bundle deal on a 280mm-scale space marine today, if you have lots of money to spend. Oh, and an open day ticket, because apparently those still happen even though we don't learn much from it anymore?
Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, he mostly just needs some platform knees to make his legs the right length. The remaining proportions are actually good as long as you don’t forget he’s wearing massive spiky armour over his sleeves.
Oh and maybe a pose that is less “wait, what was that Keith? Sorry, I wasn’t paying attention…”
The pose is a little like the angry neighbour looking for the kids who keep playing Ding Dong Ditch.
The last few FW months have been so lame that I just stopped caring and opening their www every Friday. Now I see that I haven't missed anything important
Looky Likey wrote: Roughly a £140 saved on the Warlord Titan bundle. Wonder if they have been struggling to sell them recently?
Possibly, anyone who wanted one and had the money will have bought a custom one by now. I expect they need to shift the excess parts to make space for new stock.
The last few FW months have been so lame that I just stopped caring and opening their www every Friday. Now I see that I haven't missed anything important
Have forgeworld ever released anything partciularly interesting around christmas time? It would bite into production time in thier busiest period.
Galas wrote: The GW Nazgûl all have simple poses, they aren't leaping or jumping or anything crazy like that, but they all have their momentum.
This Khamul just literally has no pose. He's right there, standing without transmiting any kind of emotion or feeling, with his short legs.
Just look at them, they are bastly superior in proportions and phose (And I'm sure, even in price)
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This is my favourite one:
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Heck. Just look at the generic Nazgûl. They are basically the same, a specre without a face and a black robe, but they all have their own unique and interesting phoses. Not a single one is in a pose so emotionless as this Khamul from FW:
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This Khamul is a BIG step backwards compared with all the other Nazgul miniatures GW has produced.
There is nothing wrong with the pose. Not every pose needs momentum, especially if it is for a commander. The pose carries a bit of a feel of menacing calm. Or it would, if he would not have been standing there on his really cute short little legs Oh god, those legs. They make the miniature so laughable. The old ones are indeed better, which is a shame as we know that FW can produce totally awesome miniatures.
Having just completed shadow of war I feel like gw is severely lacking inspiration when I comes to orcs and the wraiths, they should take a leaf out of that game and throw a lot more character into evil armies in general
The pose of Khamul is the exact pose we see of him in the Hobbit movie when Elrond arrives at Dol Guldur. I wouldn't be surprised if the other Nazgul will also be modeled after that scene.
Formosa wrote: Having just completed shadow of war I feel like gw is severely lacking inspiration when I comes to orcs and the wraiths, they should take a leaf out of that game and throw a lot more character into evil armies in general
The problem is the way GW created its 40K Orks in the first place...they're a joke/caricature. Even the Black Library authors admit you can't write books or novels about them. They're a victim of their own original design. The comic relief will never have a stunning side-story.
Look at how silly/stupid they are in the video games for 40K. Sure you can do decent character design on almost everyone else (Tyranids aside obviously) but Orks are a lost cause and GW has all but said so from a thematic/cool/developmental standpoint.
Elbows wrote: The problem is the way GW created its 40K Orks in the first place...they're a joke/caricature. Even the Black Library authors admit you can't write books or novels about them. They're a victim of their own original design. The comic relief will never have a stunning side-story.
Look at how silly/stupid they are in the video games for 40K. Sure you can do decent character design on almost everyone else (Tyranids aside obviously) but Orks are a lost cause and GW has all but said so from a thematic/cool/developmental standpoint.
Then GW and the BL authors in question are severely lacking in imagination. Having a comedic bent doesn't in any way preclude good and varied character design, and it in no way prevents the writing of a solid, enjoyable narrative - I mean crikey, Black Library managed to publish a series of "dramedy" novels about a Commissar!
What folk mean when they have a go at Orks is you can't write a po-faced tale of mighty heroes engaging in mighty heroism, as Goodguy McStickupthearse growls at The Archvillain in a manly fashion and then kicks their head in and/or dies in a heroic but pyrrhic manner. The idea you can't write any kind of satisfying story about them is even more farcical than the Orks themselves. In short, if they're struggling to write stories about Orks, they need to stop trying to write "Gaunt's Greenskins" and angle more towards the Cain books.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: The pose of Khamul is the exact pose we see of him in the Hobbit movie when Elrond arrives at Dol Guldur. I wouldn't be surprised if the other Nazgul will also be modeled after that scene.
Yes, they showed several of the other Dol Guldur Nazgul yesterday on Warhammer TV and they are all in the Dol Guldur Nine Pose.
Formosa wrote: Having just completed shadow of war I feel like gw is severely lacking inspiration when I comes to orcs and the wraiths, they should take a leaf out of that game and throw a lot more character into evil armies in general
Good God, what a horrifying idea.
More varied orcs would be a good thing, each one of the named ones have more character than the entirety of the lord of the rings range right now, so making a couple of olog hai characters, orcs and uruk hai would interest people like me who have no interest in the good armies who are over saturated with characters.
So explain why more varied sculpts and new characters inspired by shadow of war is a bad thing?
Formosa wrote: Having just completed shadow of war I feel like gw is severely lacking inspiration when I comes to orcs and the wraiths, they should take a leaf out of that game and throw a lot more character into evil armies in general
Good God, what a horrifying idea.
More varied orcs would be a good thing, each one of the named ones have more character than the entirety of the lord of the rings range right now, so making a couple of olog hai characters, orcs and uruk hai would interest people like me who have no interest in the good armies who are over saturated with characters.
So explain why more varied sculpts and new characters inspired by shadow of war is a bad thing?
You mean apart from the fact that those games are an abomination against the story in general? Orcs don't need to be overflowing with characters. They're the nameless mass, not individual hero's in their own right. Redo of the original sculpts? Sure, they're old and could do with it. But randomly throwing in named hero's based off that game? I mean come on, two of the Nazgul being Isildur and Helm Hammerhand?? Shadow of War is best left at the bottom of the clearance bin. Where it belongs.
Formosa wrote: Having just completed shadow of war I feel like gw is severely lacking inspiration when I comes to orcs and the wraiths, they should take a leaf out of that game and throw a lot more character into evil armies in general
Good God, what a horrifying idea.
More varied orcs would be a good thing, each one of the named ones have more character than the entirety of the lord of the rings range right now, so making a couple of olog hai characters, orcs and uruk hai would interest people like me who have no interest in the good armies who are over saturated with characters.
So explain why more varied sculpts and new characters inspired by shadow of war is a bad thing?
You mean apart from the fact that those games are an abomination against the story in general? Orcs don't need to be overflowing with characters. They're the nameless mass, not individual hero's in their own right. Redo of the original sculpts? Sure, they're old and could do with it. But randomly throwing in named hero's based off that game? I mean come on, two of the Nazgul being Isildur and Helm Hammerhand?? Shadow of War is best left at the bottom of the clearance bin. Where it belongs.
The games are not an abomination at all, they take the theme of lord of the rings and go in another direction rather than being hide bound to the books, if you don't like them it's ok though, don't pass it off as a "fact" though, it's just your opinion.
Also, to be frank, learn to read, I did not say "overflowing" with characters, I wanted a couple of new ones that are inspired by the game, I.e the varied armour and themes they have, orcs do not need to be faceless masses, that lacks imagination, and nor did I say to take the heros from the gam, I said inspired by, not direct rip off... sigh, it's clear to me that your irrational hatred for the game has marred your opinion so much that you can't even see what they did right, it wouldn't even surprise me if you haven't even played it and just read the wiki or watched the video play through, but hey! Feth people who try to do something different right!
You mean apart from the fact that those games are an abomination against the story in general? Orcs don't need to be overflowing with characters. They're the nameless mass, not individual hero's in their own right. Redo of the original sculpts? Sure, they're old and could do with it. But randomly throwing in named hero's based off that game? I mean come on, two of the Nazgul being Isildur and Helm Hammerhand?? Shadow of War is best left at the bottom of the clearance bin. Where it belongs.
Weren´t the Nine already around, when Sauron still had a body and Isildur lived? Also this is indeed an abomination of the LotR lore, where some dude just puts in the names of human heroes. This is fanfiction and wouldn´t give credit to the timeline.
Also back in the day even in the WD there were new orc heroes and there are some tools to create your own with the correct point value.
I´m really excited to see the other wraiths and if at least one of them can outdo their previous incarnations. Poor Khamul couldn´t.
And when will Azogs command post be released?
You mean apart from the fact that those games are an abomination against the story in general? Orcs don't need to be overflowing with characters. They're the nameless mass, not individual hero's in their own right. Redo of the original sculpts? Sure, they're old and could do with it. But randomly throwing in named hero's based off that game? I mean come on, two of the Nazgul being Isildur and Helm Hammerhand?? Shadow of War is best left at the bottom of the clearance bin. Where it belongs.
Weren´t the Nine already around, when Sauron still had a body and Isildur lived? Also this is indeed an abomination of the LotR lore, where some dude just puts in the names of human heroes. This is fanfiction and wouldn´t give credit to the timeline.
Also back in the day even in the WD there were new orc heroes and there are some tools to create your own with the correct point value.
I´m really excited to see the other wraiths and if at least one of them can outdo their previous incarnations. Poor Khamul couldn´t.
And when will Azogs command post be released?
So I did a quick google search and it seems a lot of different companies have given the nazgul character, gw being the best in my opinion so far, I,Ike you, look forward to seeing what forge world does with the others to give them some perpnsality
The Only "canonical" Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, the second in command to the Witch King. All of the rest are just custom-made for videogames, books, toys, etc... because they didn't had names
I agree that the GW ones are the coolest I have seen.
And Shadows of Mordor and Shadows of War are obviously non-canonical, but they are very good and fun games in their own right.
Galas wrote: The Only "canonical" Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, the second in command to the Witch King. All of the rest are just custom-made for videogames, books, toys, etc... because they didn't had names
I agree that the GW ones are the coolest I have seen.
And Shadows of Mordor and Shadows of War are obviously non-canonical, but they are very good and fun games in their own right.
Yep thats pretty much my take from it.
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: Besides, GW already did invent evil characters, Amdur, Buhrdur, Durburz, Vrasku to name a few. Aside from the fireball-Ork I actually like them.
Galas wrote: The Only "canonical" Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, the second in command to the Witch King. All of the rest are just custom-made for videogames, books, toys, etc... because they didn't had names
I agree that the GW ones are the coolest I have seen.
And Shadows of Mordor and Shadows of War are obviously non-canonical, but they are very good and fun games in their own right.
Yep thats pretty much my take from it.
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: Besides, GW already did invent evil characters, Amdur, Buhrdur, Durburz, Vrasku to name a few. Aside from the fireball-Ork I actually like them.
Yep and I love that Evil got some character
Named characters in GW's version of LoTR and The Hobbit have to be authorised by New Line Cinema/Tolkien estate or some such variant. Or have been pre agreed as they had been named at some stage during film production.
IIRC the Licence that GW has is only for miniature games based upon LOTR and the Hobbit movies.
Galas wrote: The Only "canonical" Nazgul is Khamul the Easterling, the second in command to the Witch King. All of the rest are just custom-made for videogames, books, toys, etc... because they didn't had names
I agree that the GW ones are the coolest I have seen.
And Shadows of Mordor and Shadows of War are obviously non-canonical, but they are very good and fun games in their own right.
Yep thats pretty much my take from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Besides, GW already did invent evil characters, Amdur, Buhrdur, Durburz, Vrasku to name a few. Aside from the fireball-Ork I actually like them.
Yep and I love that Evil got some character
Named characters in GW's version of LoTR and The Hobbit have to be authorised by New Line Cinema/Tolkien estate or some such variant. Or have been pre agreed as they had been named at some stage during film production.
IIRC the Licence that GW has is only for miniature games based upon LOTR and the Hobbit movies.
I
Ok, if that's the case, what is stopping them creating more characters ? If it's characters and units based on LOTR, then they are free to create as much as they please, with acceptance from new line of course.
You loyal Legionaries and faithless Traitors have been ever so patient, and very soon that patience will be rewarded.
After a brief delay, we’re very happy to announce that The Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness Rulebook is back on track, and you won’t have to wait long to get your hands on it. In fact, you’ll be able to order your copy this year (that’s right, within the next 11 days)!
BrookM wrote: Yeah no, still going to wait. This is after all still a Forge World publication which is bound to have its share of oversights and whatnot.
Eh. This should be wrapping existing FAQs and rewrites into an existing edition that had plenty of time to get overhauled. I'm confident it will be more like the red books and less like Inferno...
MajorWesJanson wrote: I dont want slightly tweaked 7th ed rules, i want proper 8th ed conversion, with a redo of titan rules to make them not terrible in 8th.
Same here. I see no reason to jump in with an old ruleset.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I dont want slightly tweaked 7th ed rules, i want proper 8th ed conversion, with a redo of titan rules to make them not terrible in 8th.
Same here. I see no reason to jump in with an old ruleset.
if they do an 8th conversion then fine, as long as they also stick to the 1.0 HH ruleset, if the game completely goes to 8th, I will be sorely disapointed and stop playing HH/40k all together, and stick to modelling/painting, I understand people like 8th, but for me the theme and setting of 30k does not lend well to 8th blandification of the characters/rules.
If and when they go to 8th, they will no longer support 7th - however the plan may well be "finish the books in 7th...then convert" meaning you'd have a full ruleset to play at your leisure.
The other comments about 8th, well that's an oddity.
Elbows wrote: If and when they go to 8th, they will no longer support 7th - however the plan may well be "finish the books in 7th...then convert" meaning you'd have a full ruleset to play at your leisure.
The other comments about 8th, well that's an oddity.
It's really not, 8th has its fans but I find it a bit too "gamey" in its abstractions, ie it doesn't want you to think in terms of the tabletop as a battlefield, it wants you to think in terms of the tabletop as the field of play, hence ludicrous congaline formations and unit placement based on wringing the most advantage out of specific rules. 7th has its faults, no doubt, but many of those are mitigated or eliminated in the Age of Darkness variant, and at least playing games still has that feel of being a general commanding a battle rather than a bloke trying to beat another bloke at toy soldiers in a dingy old church hall/[insert venue as appropriate].
As long as they finish the Heresy series within 7th, they can go nuts with 8th and best of luck to them, but 8th is by no means universally loved and switching just a few books before the big finale leaving people who prefer AoD as it is without a complete set of rules would be garbage and would drive away just as many if not more people than waiting to do the 8th conversion until after they're all done with Terra.
Converting to 8th edition ruleset is fine, as long as they throw us a bone and give up updated army lists for free. I'd loathe to buy the red books yet again..
I can't see them going to 8th till they have finished publishing the main Black books, the desire to go to 8th seemed to end with Alan's passing, then the whole thing will be redone in 8th
Wouldn't surprise me to see FW start to move the HH Black books to the Siege sooner than people expect to tie in with the Siege books being released by BL. It still gives them 18 to 24 months to do so.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
Well this is closest thing to that I think with 7th ed rules with all the FAQ's added in and some rules changed.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
Well this is closest thing to that I think with 7th ed rules with all the FAQ's added in and some rules changed.
Close but not quite the same as 7.5 will be replacing powers and the like? Rather than just rewording or recosting abilities as they FAQs have.
Well yes I didn't say it's same. Though one could say removing invisibility IS fixing mistakes Whole spell was mistake from the get-go as was obvious to pretty much anybody.
tneva82 wrote: Well yes I didn't say it's same. Though one could say removing invisibility IS fixing mistakes Whole spell was mistake from the get-go as was obvious to pretty much anybody.
Oh I misunderstood your previous message then. I completely agree about invisibility, but because it was never reworked in a FAQ (and it would have been very easy to do so), shows how little GW wanted to tinker with 7th via FAQs.
Weird rumour in refers forgeworld primarch but that makes never seen part meaningless.
I do believe the rumor of two Primarchs introduced this year is referring to the 40k line and not the 30k line. Which would mean this post does not belong here, but in it's own thread.
Which was already closed but no biggie also does have other fw related.
40k or 30k. That's mystery. Seems interview was about fw side generally but question related to 40k so did answerer miss that or gave correctly 40k news
Weird rumour in refers forgeworld primarch but that makes never seen part meaningless.
I do believe the rumor of two Primarchs introduced this year is referring to the 40k line and not the 30k line. Which would mean this post does not belong here, but in it's own thread.
Was it not mentioned in a Forge World video though? Which would mean 30k.
Edit: according to someone on Bolter and Chainsword, it’s been confirmed on Twitter that they were talking about 30k. In which case, it’s (most likely) Dorn and Alpharius, as we’ve been told that Dorn is done and Alpharius is being worked on.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I dont want slightly tweaked 7th ed rules, i want proper 8th ed conversion, with a redo of titan rules to make them not terrible in 8th.
Same here. I see no reason to jump in with an old ruleset.
if they do an 8th conversion then fine, as long as they also stick to the 1.0 HH ruleset, if the game completely goes to 8th, I will be sorely disapointed and stop playing HH/40k all together, and stick to modelling/painting, I understand people like 8th, but for me the theme and setting of 30k does not lend well to 8th blandification of the characters/rules.
Looky Likey wrote: I can't see them going to 8th till they have finished publishing the main Black books, the desire to go to 8th seemed to end with Alan's passing, then the whole thing will be redone in 8th
Wouldn't surprise me to see FW start to move the HH Black books to the Siege sooner than people expect to tie in with the Siege books being released by BL. It still gives them 18 to 24 months to do so.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
Eighth? More like 12th or 13th by the time FW wraps things up. I suppose that it's *possible* that they skip ahead to the Siege and ignore every other space on their timeline. Doesn't seem very likely though, and IMO it's been established that FW is better left working at its own (often glacial) pace rather than trying to 'tie in'. Inferno missed the intended tie-in by months, AND was still clearly a rush job in the rules department.
I'm very, very unenthusiastic about 30K sticking with 7th. That decision killed most of my personal 30K momentum, and caused a lot of communities to dry up.
Thing about note about never seen is that basically in 30k context it doesn't rule out anything whatsoever. All models that have had models pre fw series are already done so all fw primarch fits that description. Which, seeing response seems to have been 40k question, leads me to think it might be 40k answer after all.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I dont want slightly tweaked 7th ed rules, i want proper 8th ed conversion, with a redo of titan rules to make them not terrible in 8th.
Same here. I see no reason to jump in with an old ruleset.
if they do an 8th conversion then fine, as long as they also stick to the 1.0 HH ruleset, if the game completely goes to 8th, I will be sorely disapointed and stop playing HH/40k all together, and stick to modelling/painting, I understand people like 8th, but for me the theme and setting of 30k does not lend well to 8th blandification of the characters/rules.
See ya.
Seeing 8th ed hh isn't coming he's here to stay. Thank god. 8th is such a joke as a game good thing hh stays as serious game
MajorWesJanson wrote: I dont want slightly tweaked 7th ed rules, i want proper 8th ed conversion, with a redo of titan rules to make them not terrible in 8th.
Same here. I see no reason to jump in with an old ruleset.
if they do an 8th conversion then fine, as long as they also stick to the 1.0 HH ruleset, if the game completely goes to 8th, I will be sorely disapointed and stop playing HH/40k all together, and stick to modelling/painting, I understand people like 8th, but for me the theme and setting of 30k does not lend well to 8th blandification of the characters/rules.
See ya.
That reply doesn’t make any sense, because they aren’t going to 8th, not for the foreseeable future anyway.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I dont want slightly tweaked 7th ed rules, i want proper 8th ed conversion, with a redo of titan rules to make them not terrible in 8th.
Same here. I see no reason to jump in with an old ruleset.
if they do an 8th conversion then fine, as long as they also stick to the 1.0 HH ruleset, if the game completely goes to 8th, I will be sorely disapointed and stop playing HH/40k all together, and stick to modelling/painting, I understand people like 8th, but for me the theme and setting of 30k does not lend well to 8th blandification of the characters/rules.
See ya.
Well since there staying 7th, looks like "see ya" to you
That reply doesn’t make any sense, because they aren’t going to 8th, not for the foreseeable future anyway.
This is exactly the reason I'm not getting into 30k until they unclusterf*#k the rules and bring them into 8th.
BTW I love the forge world stuff I bought.
I keep hearing this and must ask, can you specifically state what is cluster fethed with the base 7th rules?
This part isn't directed at you, but I also keep seeing idiots (and yep they are idiots), complain about 7th 30k because they assume it has the same issues that 7th 40k had, or they are 40k players that also played 30k and want to use there 30k armies in 40k (these people are not idiots).
Looky Likey wrote: I can't see them going to 8th till they have finished publishing the main Black books, the desire to go to 8th seemed to end with Alan's passing, then the whole thing will be redone in 8th
Wouldn't surprise me to see FW start to move the HH Black books to the Siege sooner than people expect to tie in with the Siege books being released by BL. It still gives them 18 to 24 months to do so.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
Eighth? More like 12th or 13th by the time FW wraps things up. I suppose that it's *possible* that they skip ahead to the Siege and ignore every other space on their timeline. Doesn't seem very likely though, and IMO it's been established that FW is better left working at its own (often glacial) pace rather than trying to 'tie in'. Inferno missed the intended tie-in by months, AND was still clearly a rush job in the rules department.
I'm very, very unenthusiastic about 30K sticking with 7th. That decision killed most of my personal 30K momentum, and caused a lot of communities to dry up.
Lets be real here, sticking with 7th didn't cause many actual 30K communities to dry up at all. What it caused to dry up was people using 30K armies to play 40K with. Now it sure sucks for those folk who could only get a game with those armies in that way, but they never had a healthy 30K community in the first place and they shouldn't be the primary consideration if 30K is actually supposed to be a thing of its own rather than just an afterthought for 40K players.
Looky Likey wrote: I can't see them going to 8th till they have finished publishing the main Black books, the desire to go to 8th seemed to end with Alan's passing, then the whole thing will be redone in 8th
Wouldn't surprise me to see FW start to move the HH Black books to the Siege sooner than people expect to tie in with the Siege books being released by BL. It still gives them 18 to 24 months to do so.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
Eighth? More like 12th or 13th by the time FW wraps things up. I suppose that it's *possible* that they skip ahead to the Siege and ignore every other space on their timeline. Doesn't seem very likely though, and IMO it's been established that FW is better left working at its own (often glacial) pace rather than trying to 'tie in'. Inferno missed the intended tie-in by months, AND was still clearly a rush job in the rules department.
I'm very, very unenthusiastic about 30K sticking with 7th. That decision killed most of my personal 30K momentum, and caused a lot of communities to dry up.
Lets be real here, sticking with 7th didn't cause many actual 30K communities to dry up at all. What it caused to dry up was people using 30K armies to play 40K with. Now it sure sucks for those folk who could only get a game with those armies in that way, but they never had a healthy 30K community in the first place and they shouldn't be the primary consideration if 30K is actually supposed to be a thing of its own rather than just an afterthought for 40K players.
Thank you, that is what I have been saying for ages, there are two kinds of 30k players, ones that play 30k and 40k players that play 40k with 30k armies, and it seems that it's the latter that wants 8th, a system that would woefully reflect 30k.
I'm glad they are sticking with 7th, although they should have put more effort into modifying it more because it is THEIR ruleset now. 8th is as much of a clusterfeth atm and I don't see how the character rules or CC rules would make a better cinematic game for 30k.
If only the loyalist had CHARGED their rhinos at the traitors during the drop site massacre! They could have stopped their shooting... QQ.
The Primarchs would be totally out of control too or they'd completely suck depending on if they were 9 Wounds or 10+.
However the larger issues is why in the world would you want to rewrite EVERY SINGLE BOOK? That's absolutely insane and anyone who thinks thats a GOOD idea never really cared much for 30k IMO.
Looky Likey wrote: I can't see them going to 8th till they have finished publishing the main Black books, the desire to go to 8th seemed to end with Alan's passing, then the whole thing will be redone in 8th
Wouldn't surprise me to see FW start to move the HH Black books to the Siege sooner than people expect to tie in with the Siege books being released by BL. It still gives them 18 to 24 months to do so.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
Eighth? More like 12th or 13th by the time FW wraps things up. I suppose that it's *possible* that they skip ahead to the Siege and ignore every other space on their timeline. Doesn't seem very likely though, and IMO it's been established that FW is better left working at its own (often glacial) pace rather than trying to 'tie in'. Inferno missed the intended tie-in by months, AND was still clearly a rush job in the rules department.
I'm very, very unenthusiastic about 30K sticking with 7th. That decision killed most of my personal 30K momentum, and caused a lot of communities to dry up.
Lets be real here, sticking with 7th didn't cause many actual 30K communities to dry up at all. What it caused to dry up was people using 30K armies to play 40K with. Now it sure sucks for those folk who could only get a game with those armies in that way, but they never had a healthy 30K community in the first place and they shouldn't be the primary consideration if 30K is actually supposed to be a thing of its own rather than just an afterthought for 40K players.
Thank you, that is what I have been saying for ages, there are two kinds of 30k players, ones that play 30k and 40k players that play 40k with 30k armies, and it seems that it's the latter that wants 8th, a system that would woefully reflect 30k.
Well, what I KNOW is that there are many types of 30K players -- not two. And some of them care enough about the gameplay that they can clearly see all of the creakiness of and burdensome legacy issues with 7th edition. What's more, they can see the potential for 8th to be better for 30K than it is for 40K. That's the impetus behind the excellent fan-based 8th edition project.
There's also a faction of 30K players who seem most interested in displaying their (imagined) hobby superiority. The previous embarrassing low point for this group was when they loudly bemoaned the influx of new players from Betrayal at Calth...you know, new players actually growing communities. The horror. But they're in their full glory now, cheering on the exodus of players away from 7th edition 30K in some misguided idea that it'll reveal the 'true' 30K fans.
The worm may turn eventually. But for now, that sad faction has 'won', and is fully entitled to march down the avenue wearing their King Dork crowns and holding their scepters high. The rest of us are left only to shrug and go about our business.
Looky Likey wrote: I can't see them going to 8th till they have finished publishing the main Black books, the desire to go to 8th seemed to end with Alan's passing, then the whole thing will be redone in 8th
Wouldn't surprise me to see FW start to move the HH Black books to the Siege sooner than people expect to tie in with the Siege books being released by BL. It still gives them 18 to 24 months to do so.
When was the last time FW or GW reprinted a rule book because they made mistakes with the actual rules? I can't see them reprinting 7.5, they'll just stick with FAQs.
Eighth? More like 12th or 13th by the time FW wraps things up. I suppose that it's *possible* that they skip ahead to the Siege and ignore every other space on their timeline. Doesn't seem very likely though, and IMO it's been established that FW is better left working at its own (often glacial) pace rather than trying to 'tie in'. Inferno missed the intended tie-in by months, AND was still clearly a rush job in the rules department.
I'm very, very unenthusiastic about 30K sticking with 7th. That decision killed most of my personal 30K momentum, and caused a lot of communities to dry up.
Lets be real here, sticking with 7th didn't cause many actual 30K communities to dry up at all. What it caused to dry up was people using 30K armies to play 40K with. Now it sure sucks for those folk who could only get a game with those armies in that way, but they never had a healthy 30K community in the first place and they shouldn't be the primary consideration if 30K is actually supposed to be a thing of its own rather than just an afterthought for 40K players.
Thank you, that is what I have been saying for ages, there are two kinds of 30k players, ones that play 30k and 40k players that play 40k with 30k armies, and it seems that it's the latter that wants 8th, a system that would woefully reflect 30k.
Well, what I KNOW is that there are many types of 30K players -- not two. And some of them care enough about the gameplay that they can clearly see all of the creakiness of and burdensome legacy issues with 7th edition. What's more, they can see the potential for 8th to be better for 30K than it is for 40K. That's the impetus behind the excellent fan-based 8th edition project.
There's also a faction of 30K players who seem most interested in displaying their (imagined) hobby superiority. The previous embarrassing low point for this group was when they loudly bemoaned the influx of new players from Betrayal at Calth...you know, new players actually growing communities. The horror. But they're in their full glory now, cheering on the exodus of players away from 7th edition 30K in some misguided idea that it'll reveal the 'true' 30K fans.
The worm may turn eventually. But for now, that sad faction has 'won', and is fully entitled to march down the avenue wearing their King Dork crowns and holding their scepters high. The rest of us are left only to shrug and go about our business.
No all the players fall into those broad categories, and still 8th 30kers still complain that "7th sucks" but have yet to explain why it sucks for 30k, it sucked for 40k due to formations etc. But worked absolutely fine for 30k because it was an already modified rule set. 8th does not fit the character of 30k for several reasons, non existent cover rules, combined with the large amount of firepower of 30k armies, equals bad idea, every centurion and up character would have WS2+, so apparently primarchs, centurions, all named characters are exactly the same in combat, it just comes down to who has re rolls... yawn, removal of flavour from weapons... just look at volkite in 40k... again yawn.
I like the fan based 30k project, as it lets those 40k players play 40k with there 30k armies, which is what they want, I want to play 30k with my 30k army, and it amazes me you drop a comment like "potential of 8th for 30k" (paraphrased) when you bluntly refuse to see the potential of forge world with 7th, double standards.
Ah the old "hobby superiority" argument, had that in fantasy for years, you know not once did I see an issue in real life, no hobby superiority, mostly just people wanting to try Horus heresy after calth came out and us older players welcoming them, but it's the internet, so it must be true...
And "exodus" of 30k players leaving? Can you prove that, or is it another bro fact? I bet it's the primarily 40k players carrying on with the new ed more than 30k players leaving in disgust, because the only time I have seen 30k players get really pissed off is when inferno dropped.
But hey, here's the real fact, you want to play 8th, use your space Marine models, make a 40k army that is basically the same (use special weapon squads as stand in hellblasters), you even have rules in 8th for 30k vehicles etc, then crack on playing 8th, if you want to play Horus Heresy, a different game system with different rules, then come on down, because at this point all the 40k crowd sound like "but necromunda has different rules to shadspire and I want to play with both"
... how exactly does this discusion have to do with FW news and rumours? If people want to complain about HH sticking to 7th or possibly changing to 8th, I feel like that would be more at home in a dedicated thread...?
Tyr13 wrote: ... how exactly does this discusion have to do with FW news and rumours? If people want to complain about HH sticking to 7th or possibly changing to 8th, I feel like that would be more at home in a dedicated thread...?
We're discussing news in a news thread?
But I suppose it would be better to move the discussion to another thread.
I think ultimately they may have looked at it and seen that it would be much harder to turn 8th into a functioning wargame especially with the nuance to make the legions feel different given they all pull from a common pool of units at heart, than to make minor changes to 7th to get it to the position they want it.
Short version 8th would need a considerable amount of stuff adding to it, where 7th needed a bit of a trim here and there but was mostly good to go. Ultimately cutting stuff is easier than adding stuff and that the way they went.
7th at it's core is fine the bad bits fell in 2 camps gak codexs designed to sell models and armies that flat out ignored huge sections of the rules such as morale which other armies were built around using. They was some bloat at the end and.formatiins were flawed but again easy enough to prune or fix.
SeanDrake wrote: I think ultimately they may have looked at it and seen that it would be much harder to turn 8th into a functioning wargame especially with the nuance to make the legions feel different given they all pull from a common pool of units at heart, than to make minor changes to 7th to get it to the position they want it.
Short version 8th would need a considerable amount of stuff adding to it, where 7th needed a bit of a trim here and there but was mostly good to go. Ultimately cutting stuff is easier than adding stuff and that the way they went.
7th at it's core is fine the bad bits fell in 2 camps gak codexs designed to sell models and armies that flat out ignored huge sections of the rules such as morale which other armies were built around using. They was some bloat at the end and.formatiins were flawed but again easy enough to prune or fix.
Yup. People say Alan was excited to move things over to 8th, but by all accounts Alan was some kind of wizard who could churn out the workload of three or four mortal men without dropping his quality level - the kind of rewrite he must have been planning to bring 8th up to snuff likely just wasn't feasible without him, not in the medium term anyway.
Nostromodamus wrote: Is there any reason to get it if I already have the 40k 7th edition rules?
The rules aren't exactly the same, plus it has the weapon profiles for the HH weapons, and the USRs include several 30k specific ones. Psychic powers have been updated, and daemon summoning is modified. The missions and deployment types are not the same, either. Plus, all the great 30k art.
In short, if you play 30k, it's a required purchase.
Formosa wrote: Sold out insanely fast, so much for "fans want 8th, 7th will kill the game"
So how many copies did they make, and how many % of the HH fan base bought it? And how has that fan base and it’s growth changed since the unfortunate demise of Alan and subsequent shelving of plans to move to 8th? These are the questions you would need to answer to make that statement.
Formosa wrote: Sold out insanely fast, so much for "fans want 8th, 7th will kill the game"
So how many copies did they make, and how many % of the HH fan base bought it? And how has that fan base and it’s growth changed since the unfortunate demise of Alan and subsequent shelving of plans to move to 8th? These are the questions you would need to answer to make that statement.
Really, they are are they. Funny how nobody needed to put in that level of investigative and speculative work to declare that the sky was falling and HH was doomed, one person's anecdote about them and a guy they knew was sufficient
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Personally I only play the Great Crusade using Laserburn rules and lead models.
Too many bandwagon jumpers coming in with their resin models ruined HH for me.
Oh sarcasm is a hard thing to understand on the internet For every ten people who get the joke, there's going to be that one guy who thought you were being serious.
gorgon wrote: Eighth? More like 12th or 13th by the time FW wraps things up. I suppose that it's *possible* that they skip ahead to the Siege and ignore every other space on their timeline. Doesn't seem very likely though, and IMO it's been established that FW is better left working at its own (often glacial) pace rather than trying to 'tie in'. Inferno missed the intended tie-in by months, AND was still clearly a rush job in the rules department.
I'm very, very unenthusiastic about 30K sticking with 7th. That decision killed most of my personal 30K momentum, and caused a lot of communities to dry up.
I heard the same arguments about BL wrapping up HH as quickly as they are when I mooted that express timeline, and look what happened there. People insisted at least ten more books on top of any already announced before they'd even start the Siege (pushing the total to almost 70 books) and its looking like they will hit 50 (or be very very close to 50) before the siege starts now.
It feels like with Alan's passing all of the momentum and drive to move FW's HH onwards has gone. We haven't seen many new models previewed for ages, we should have had book 8 launched back end of this year. Most of what has come out in the last few months has been either custodies stuff previewed early this year or legion themed doors and upgrade kits. I can't see FW selling much volume of anything recently, they need more books to drive the sales of new models that the majority of 30k Marine players want to buy.
I'm expecting a huge push to get FW's HH wrapped up quickly now that FW has had a chance to grieve and regroup after Alan's passing. That still means a 24 to 18 month timeline before the first Siege book lands, and I've no idea how many books they will milk the Siege for nor what will come afterwards.
Heres the last timeline that I saw:
I would be highly surprised if FW miss launching Angelus at the HH weekender in February. I would guess 4 to 5 more books after Angelus at most. I'm expecting the publishing rate to ramp right up to three books a year, at least for next year to catch up on the book that was missed this year.
The drive for FW to move HH or the successor of HH to 8th must also be strong, they won't do that till HH is finished, hence the extra pressure to finish HH sooner rather than later.
Formosa wrote: Sold out insanely fast, so much for "fans want 8th, 7th will kill the game"
So how many copies did they make, and how many % of the HH fan base bought it? And how has that fan base and it’s growth changed since the unfortunate demise of Alan and subsequent shelving of plans to move to 8th? These are the questions you would need to answer to make that statement.
Is it more likely that the first batch that sold out included the limited edition summary cards and the second batch did not? And as FW can't upload (for whatever reason) a second batch to automatically appear after the first batch was sold out we had to wait for somebody to do it manually?
Looky Likey wrote: Is it more likely that the first batch that sold out included the limited edition summary cards and the second batch did not? And as FW can't upload (for whatever reason) a second batch to automatically appear after the first batch was sold out we had to wait for somebody to do it manually?
Except offer still going on. More likely demand simply crashed the server making it give false sold out.
Just waiting to see how much christmast money received so I can put in my order. Hopefully sheets haven't ran out by then!
I'm guessing the 2nd batch was the ones saved for the Open Day and they'll hope to rush the next batch in for the event or just fo orders for it with free postage on the day.
TwilightSparkles wrote: I'm guessing the 2nd batch was the ones saved for the Open Day and they'll hope to rush the next batch in for the event or just fo orders for it with free postage on the day.
Or we could use this post by Tamwolf on 30k forum:
"Looks like demand temporarily crashed the order server this morning! But FW sent out a message saying it's fixed and they have more rule books available"
I'm banking on that. Book don't just go out of stock and suddenly get more copies out just like that.
Formosa wrote: Sold out insanely fast, so much for "fans want 8th, 7th will kill the game"
So how many copies did they make, and how many % of the HH fan base bought it? And how has that fan base and it’s growth changed since the unfortunate demise of Alan and subsequent shelving of plans to move to 8th? These are the questions you would need to answer to make that statement.
How many copies did they make? Not enough
Automatically Appended Next Post: How many copies did they make? Not enough
I'm waiting a couple more weeks before I order, because I want to add some doors to the order, so saving some more cash up.
Very happy about this though, I've seen such a resurgence of excitement in all the local FB pages I follow for 30K. It definitely seems that the "cooling" we saw was because people were just waiting for the rules to come out.
djones520 wrote: I'm waiting a couple more weeks before I order, because I want to add some doors to the order, so saving some more cash up.
Very happy about this though, I've seen such a resurgence of excitement in all the local FB pages I follow for 30K. It definitely seems that the "cooling" we saw was because people were just waiting for the rules to come out.
Well certainly here people still seems to be excited and generally comment regarding staying 7th has been akin to "thank god"
Anyway, got my book today; nice to finally have rad-phage actually make it into a book somewhere. Also, the summary sheets are really nice, with a high-gloss finish all over.
Going through the rules there are a few things I wish they had taken the opportunity to change while they could but overall it’s basically 7e+ as expected.
I would be interested in that too as I still have my 7th edition rulebook and if there's only a few changes then I might as well just download the cheat sheets.
Oh are all 7th edition psychic powers the same? As I just found a stack of cards
Daston wrote: I would be interested in that too as I still have my 7th edition rulebook and if there's only a few changes then I might as well just download the cheat sheets.
Oh are all 7th edition psychic powers the same? As I just found a stack of cards
gorgon wrote: Eighth? More like 12th or 13th by the time FW wraps things up. I suppose that it's *possible* that they skip ahead to the Siege and ignore every other space on their timeline. Doesn't seem very likely though, and IMO it's been established that FW is better left working at its own (often glacial) pace rather than trying to 'tie in'. Inferno missed the intended tie-in by months, AND was still clearly a rush job in the rules department.
I'm very, very unenthusiastic about 30K sticking with 7th. That decision killed most of my personal 30K momentum, and caused a lot of communities to dry up.
I heard the same arguments about BL wrapping up HH as quickly as they are when I mooted that express timeline, and look what happened there. People insisted at least ten more books on top of any already announced before they'd even start the Siege (pushing the total to almost 70 books) and its looking like they will hit 50 (or be very very close to 50) before the siege starts now.
It feels like with Alan's passing all of the momentum and drive to move FW's HH onwards has gone. We haven't seen many new models previewed for ages, we should have had book 8 launched back end of this year. Most of what has come out in the last few months has been either custodies stuff previewed early this year or legion themed doors and upgrade kits. I can't see FW selling much volume of anything recently, they need more books to drive the sales of new models that the majority of 30k Marine players want to buy.
I'm expecting a huge push to get FW's HH wrapped up quickly now that FW has had a chance to grieve and regroup after Alan's passing. That still means a 24 to 18 month timeline before the first Siege book lands, and I've no idea how many books they will milk the Siege for nor what will come afterwards.
Heres the last timeline that I saw:
I would be highly surprised if FW miss launching Angelus at the HH weekender in February. I would guess 4 to 5 more books after Angelus at most. I'm expecting the publishing rate to ramp right up to three books a year, at least for next year to catch up on the book that was missed this year.
The drive for FW to move HH or the successor of HH to 8th must also be strong, they won't do that till HH is finished, hence the extra pressure to finish HH sooner rather than later.
Formosa wrote: Sold out insanely fast, so much for "fans want 8th, 7th will kill the game"
So how many copies did they make, and how many % of the HH fan base bought it? And how has that fan base and it’s growth changed since the unfortunate demise of Alan and subsequent shelving of plans to move to 8th? These are the questions you would need to answer to make that statement.
Is it more likely that the first batch that sold out included the limited edition summary cards and the second batch did not? And as FW can't upload (for whatever reason) a second batch to automatically appear after the first batch was sold out we had to wait for somebody to do it manually?
It was mentioned at the Weekender that there will be 20 black books covering the Heresy, so we are a long way off.
Thamor wrote: It was mentioned at the Weekender that there will be 20 black books covering the Heresy, so we are a long way off.
That includes the books for the Siege and the aftermath. BL have announced 4 books for the Siege alone, way more than I was expecting so it wouldn't surprise me if 3 or even more black books were devoted to the Siege. I would also expect a book or 2 for the aftermath as there is a lot of immediate after battle that need to be covered before the scouring. That makes it roughly 15 black books before we see the Siege starting. My estimate is 12 black books before the Siege, as I suspect the publishing timeline for HH has been ramped up. BL's HH has been coasting in neutral for a long time, then suddenly put the pedal so far down it went through the floor. I'm expecting FW do the same. I am sure this is due to a direction change dictated by GW...
Guttered these aren't Primaris size, beautiful sculpts though!
.
I do think that my prior interest in true scaled models and the subsequent release of primaris models have pretty much soured me on normal marine proportions/models. The only exception would be primarchs as they've always been completely different in scale and proportion from the beginning. I had the same feeling with tau when the more properly proportioned commander suit came out in 5th edition compared with the squat chibi 2003ish suits.
