I think the new VC models were designed to be used in WTOW also, and any future sigmar releases for factions we will see in old world will be designed to fit in both systems I think. Makes sense right?
nathan2004 wrote: I think the new VC models were designed to be used in WTOW also, and any future sigmar releases for factions we will see in old world will be designed to fit in both systems I think. Makes sense right?
Disagree. I think the scale creep kills it for me.
40+mm tall vampires in a 28mm game look odd to me.
nathan2004 wrote: I think the new VC models were designed to be used in WTOW also, and any future sigmar releases for factions we will see in old world will be designed to fit in both systems I think. Makes sense right?
Disagree. I think the scale creep kills it for me.
40+mm tall vampires in a 28mm game look odd to me.
I don't disagree with your overall point about exceptionally tall vampires, but that picture is misleading. Any modern GW human model that would be generally agreed on as being normal sized would make a Warhammer human from the 90s look like a runt. Warhammer is not a 28mm game and hasn't been for two decades. The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.
Geifer wrote: The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.
if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems
but this is the same with Horus Heresy, they have the old scale for Marines with the old base sizes and are independent from what GW is doing in 40k so don't expect that they follow the AoS route and make models compatible in both systems, specially if they can sell 2 armies on people who want to play both instead of 1
Warhammer Fantasy was a mess when it got dropped, and the AoS squattings have not helped in that regard. GW could easily bring back plastic kits from Fantasy I imagine, and probably metal/resin ones as well. But it makes more sense for some things then others.
As great as some High Elf kits are, they're one of those shiny examples of the Core troubles that plagued Fantasy. GW did new, shiny elites and monsters but neglected to update Core units. Sea Guard are great, but limited to the starter box sprue and a five many easy build kit. If you want several units with command groups, you end up with a lot of other High Elf models and tons of rats as well. So even if GW released Blood Isle, it wouldn't solve the issue with trying to build the core of your army. Spearmen and Archers are ancient, ugly models. I doubt GW sold a lot of them back in the day. I don't see them selling if brought back for the Old World.
Tomb Kings have a similar problem, but worse since they don't have the benefit of a refresh in a starter box. I started buying the skeletons that would eventually go into my Tomb Kings army twenty five years ago (minus the Tomb Kings upgrade sprue, obviously). They were not good models even then. And they still stuck around as the Core of the army until they got squatted half a year into AoS. Sure, you could just release the same kits that were available six or seven years ago, but how much could GW hope to sell of such a jumbled assortment of in parts subpar models?
There are armies that are in better shape, and as has been said, those are the ones that still get sold for AoS because they hold up. Beastmen, Vampire Counts, Dark Elves could easily be repackaged for the Old World.
If as we assume there's a rules compendium to make all the old armies playable, it stands to reason that GW would want to be able to sell those to interested players in one form or another. I think the worst case scenario here is that they offer a made to order run because they know the issues with some armies will stop them from selling, and from a player perspective you will need to be interested at the right time and have the disposable money, and ideally the foresight to buy everything you need for your future army. I really hope that's not what GW has in mind, but you never know. They already have trouble keeping stuff in stock without adding all those old, bad sellers back to the catalogue.
Geifer wrote: The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.
if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems
but this is the same with Horus Heresy, they have the old scale for Marines with the old base sizes and are independent from what GW is doing in 40k so don't expect that they follow the AoS route and make models compatible in both systems, specially if they can sell 2 armies on people who want to play both instead of 1
Frankly I don't expect 20mm bases to survive. Whatever GW says about using your old models/armies, I'll believe it when I see it. In the last half decade of Fantasy, the demands of established base sizes and what the designers sculpted rarely overlapped.
GW's games are model driven and they're not going to start sculpting smaller models because of rules considerations. They'll sculpt the same sized models as they do for their other games, write rules to match them and write a dismissive disclaimer in the designers' notes that you can totally use your old models by giving them expanded unit trays or something to account for unit width. Or just use them the way they are, no big deal. Something with opponent's permission, Forge the Narrative and how their rules are totally flexible enough to account for such differences.
if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems
All the Empire kits continued to come with the small square bases for ages into AoS and though its not listed in their product description, the product images for everything but Demigryphs and Wizards is on square bases. Plus as others have said, GW will still have the moulds.
BTW when GW said "You can use your old WHFB armies", how far back did you really think they were meaning? They're not going to cater to people who hadn't bought anything new since the 1990s.
but this is the same with Horus Heresy, they have the old scale for Marines with the old base sizes and are independent from what GW is doing in 40k so don't expect that they follow the AoS route and make models compatible in both systems, specially if they can sell 2 armies on people who want to play both instead of 1
Not sure what you mean here. HH has been using 32mm for Marines since the Calth box and only a select few models (Kharn, Loken) suffer from slightly small bases. The only differences between some of the plastic kits and resin ones is leg thickness and eye lenses on the MkIII. The move to 32mm was roundly praised because 25mm bases were too small.
GW has always said "you can use your old models" in almost every single game. Technically you can use your old Greater Demon models from the 1st generation release where they are little bigger than an ogor.
GW has NEVER been a tight rules company when releasing their game. They will always take the "your game your rules" and "you can always use your models" kind of angle because that fits their approach.
That doesn't mean new models for a new game are going to be made to the same size and standard as they were in the 1980s. Heck look at the new Greater Demons - they are Forgeworld model sizes and dwarf the old models (heck one or two are bigger than their FW counterparts). GW has no problem invalidating your old models for creative reasons.
Of course chances are being a rank and file game the only thing that will matter is the size of the movement tray. So you can likely take those older, smaller models, and just put them on a bigger base. Perhaps double up the numbers so that they look like a mass of troops. That would be the approach.
Geifer wrote: The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.
if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems
Here is the paragraph from the The Old World update that talks about sizes:
"What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want."
For me it says that you will be able to add the new miniatures to your existing collection. This said especially in the last part of the sentence.
Which would be cool, since it wouldnt stir more anger on the subject.
True but GW have never been strict with their heroic scaling and it has drifted over the years here and there .
GW saying its the same scale is the same as GW saying its the best rules ever written. It's still within their ecosystem. I would wager it just means that they aren't going for 6mm or 75mm scale changes. That it will be another 28-32mm heroic scale wargame like Age of Sigmar and 40K and Old World (keeping in mind most of AoS are just Old World models)
Geifer wrote: The Old World is not going to go back to miniature sizes from two or more decades ago.
if they want to stay compatible with old collections there new products will need too, as it won't work to get the larger models on 20mm bases, and increasing the base size to 25/32mm for infantry with the new armies would just lead to many other problems
Here is the paragraph from the The Old World update that talks about sizes:
"What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want."
For me it says that you will be able to add the new miniatures to your existing collection. This said especially in the last part of the sentence.
Which would be cool, since it wouldnt stir more anger on the subject.
Quote it all day, people will still barrage with their wishlisting and their nihilistic views. Hell, AFTER that press release people were still suggesting it was going to be a Warmaster redux...
I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.
Some of the old Wood Elf art would not have looked out of place in Ghyran, nor would some of the old High Elf art have looked out of place in the Lumineth.
Why bother with TOW as old Warhammer if they're just making it AOS? They wouldn't have to bother with the whole announcement about squares. No, it won't be that at all. Thankfully there will be no FireSquats or BalloonSquats retconned in.
Just to add a bit of positivity, I would absolutely be all in with this game if High Elves are back in all their former glory. Along with Vamp. Counts, High Elves were always the army I wanted growing up as a kid.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think its naive to assume that GW started designing a new ruleset set in a new time period only to rerelease its existing back catalog of old and dated sculpts that nobody bought when they were still considered state of the art.
How much do you think ancient races like the High Elves changed in a few hundred years? Do you suspect Chaos or Beastmen differed greatly before Karl Franz came about? Did the fine folks down in Khemri go through a massive Nu Wave fashion change just before Franz hit the scene, and all collectively decided to ditch their 1920's Flapper style and switch to more Ancient Egyptian themes? Or is it more likely that they were Ancient Egyptian themed 100, 200 even 500 years prior to Fancy Franz?
Of everything you listed, the only faction that we know to actually be in the game (beyond whatever day 1 Index they release and then never update again so that legacy WHFB players can return with their old armies) are High Elves.
I'm sure they will bring back a lot of those older kits on "Last Chance to Buy" for a few weeks when The Old World finally drops, but if you expect to play the game and get regular balance updates, have a competitive army, or be able to partake in whatever new fantasy sculpts GW will be releasing you will need to "get with the program" and buy into the new factions with their new aesthetics and army lists, etc.
I think the worst case scenario here is that they offer a made to order run because they know the issues with some armies will stop them from selling, and from a player perspective you will need to be interested at the right time and have the disposable money, and ideally the foresight to buy everything you need for your future army. I really hope that's not what GW has in mind, but you never know. They already have trouble keeping stuff in stock without adding all those old, bad sellers back to the catalogue.
If they do last chance to to runs I would be in big trouble. I would need some more Bretonnian Men-at-arms, Bowmen, all sorts of knights and thats just one faction. Not speak of Tomb kings tomb guards, Necropolis Knights, Usabthi and the Warsphinx kit. And many other faactions characters. My wallet would cry on those days....
Just Tony wrote:Quote it all day, people will still barrage with their wishlisting and their nihilistic views. Hell, AFTER that press release people were still suggesting it was going to be a Warmaster redux...
Or argumenting that GW will blend in AoS into WH:ToW:
Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.
Just Tony wrote:Quote it all day, people will still barrage with their wishlisting and their nihilistic views. Hell, AFTER that press release people were still suggesting it was going to be a Warmaster redux...
Or argumenting that GW will blend in AoS into WH:ToW:
Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.
Makes no sense.
Yeah, I was just gonna let that one slip by. AOS people seem REALLY irritable about this existing.
Kanluwen wrote:I wouldn't be shocked if part of the long ramp-up time for this game would be them trying to tie new AoS stuff into this game for aesthetic.
Makes no sense.
Really?
It's not like "Cities of Sigmar" exists, with a vast range of realm-based potential for the different factions that make it up.
I can't see how they would be able to sculpt things in the new scale and still fit them onto 20mm square bases and have them rank up. If they don't do that, then they can't honestly claim you can use your old army with the new models. Then again, they also said you could use your fantasy models in Age of Sigmar. When they say you can use our old models, they don't necessarily mean you can just use them as they are just like you used to, or as just the same as you'd use the new ones.
herjan1987 wrote: If they do last chance to to runs I would be in big trouble. I would need some more Bretonnian Men-at-arms, Bowmen, all sorts of knights and thats just one faction.
My wallet would consider itself fortunate if they did another run on those; probably escape with a box of bowmen or two. If they did some Made to Order runs on the (much better) 5th Edition range though.... I'd probably have to re-mortgage.
Albino Squirrel wrote: I can't see how they would be able to sculpt things in the new scale and still fit them onto 20mm square bases and have them rank up. If they don't do that, then they can't honestly claim you can use your old army with the new models. Then again, they also said you could use your fantasy models in Age of Sigmar. When they say you can use our old models, they don't necessarily mean you can just use them as they are just like you used to, or as just the same as you'd use the new ones.
I think we'll see a general need to rebase. Most stuff will move to 25mm squares or even a size larger.
Personally I'm hoping for 6th edition army sizes to keep this reasonable on the scale of a sub game but we'll see.
So 2 years after the announcement, there isn't much known about WTOW.
Unless i missed something, are there any clues of when it will be released, what armies are playable, what general the rules will be like?
And yes I know, they said it will take like 4 to 5 years to be here, but we are like nearly half way.
I was hoping to see more then just a map with some icons and a few pics of empire people.
They should have more right?
Did brexit and corona slowed the process down or not? Imo it would have helped!
They should talk about stuff like that to.
I'm 100% sure that Corona will have slowed the process considering GW lost several months last year to lockdowns and even after that resuming work has been slow to get back to offices and team work in the same building.
That said don't forget these projects are big things. GW has concept art to design; backgrounds to write; rules to design; models to sculpt and part; choices on how many moulds and what's going in a kit to make etc... There's a huge amount of parts that have to move alongside work for all their current mainline games.
GW estimated it would take 4-5 years and I wouldn't expect to see serious details or marketing until a year before release at best. I think any earlier just runs the risk that GW ends up talking about ideas that might never make it into the final product and that's not good marketing.
The last thing they want is to build hype for something that ends up not coming or release small bits of info that get taken out of context and before you now the the market expects Z when they are going to get Y. Heck even just the announcement had some people going "oh will it be warmaster scale"
I think they just announced the project too early. Obviously the lockdown likely affected their timelines, but I can't imagine people are staying incredibly hyped and focused on this project based on the slow drip of reveals about it.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I think they just announced the project too early. Obviously the lockdown likely affected their timelines, but I can't imagine people are staying incredibly hyped and focused on this project based on the slow drip of reveals about it.
Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I think they just announced the project too early. Obviously the lockdown likely affected their timelines, but I can't imagine people are staying incredibly hyped and focused on this project based on the slow drip of reveals about it.
Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
Kind of? It was a long time after, most of the anger had generally dissipated tbh.
Then again, GW are supposed to be putting out some kind of new policy on fan films next week, months after everyone stopped caring.
It was more in response to Kings of Wars new edition, 9th Age and other "its not warhammer but its trying to be" games that were, at the time, on the rise.
So it was less about people being salty about AoS and more to do with games that were rising in the market that were copy-catting the Old World system.
I figure its part of the reason we have Bloodbowl and such right now. GW today realises that even if a game from them isn't making top profit, it is at the very least keeping more customers coming to them. Someone who sticks around for Bloodbowl is now getting all the GW marketing for core games as well and is more likely to stick with them. Meanwhile if people are branching out from GW for Kings of War or other games then there's more chance of GW losing them as customers in the long term. Or at the least having to "share" that customers income with another brand in the same market.
So I think GW today is more aware of that and thus more keen to find specialist games to keep their library more open and diverse. I think they've stopped comparing everything to Marine Sales figures and considering things a failed investment if they don't profit as much.
Wasn’t the announcement made right when KoW 3rd edition dropped? It seems like they announced TOW then so potential customers would not have become invested in a competitor’s product by the time TOW launched.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Wasn’t the announcement made right when KoW 3rd edition dropped? It seems like they announced TOW then so potential customers would not have become invested in a competitor’s product by the time TOW launched.
Release date of KoW 3rd was October 2019, TOW first article I believe was November 2019, after a cursory google search.
That timeframe does raise an eyebrow to those conspiracy minded, but I think it was coincidental.
I just can't picture someone who plays KoW or is considering playing in 3rd edition to abandon their plans because a game was announced that won't be coming for 3+ years.
No but chances are people who have fond memories of Old World who are only playing Kings of War because they'd rather play Old World might not invest as heavily into other games if "GW is bringing it back" even if its in many years.
I think it has something to do with their IP too right and not abandoning it? I’m not well versed in UK law and by no means a legal expert just what I heard.
as people will say that "not directly after a there were months in between"
it was between KoW 3rd and Uncharted Empires
and yes, it was GW's response on people wandering off as the realized that just because people were not interested in their version of R&F games, did not mean they are not interested at all
I still think that they had nothing in the first year but just wanted people to stay within the GW bubble
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nathan2004 wrote: I think it has something to do with their IP too right and not abandoning it? I’m not well versed in UK law and by no means a legal expert just what I heard.
no, not the IP but trademarks
yet there is no need for a game to keep them, just doing anything
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I think they just announced the project too early. Obviously the lockdown likely affected their timelines, but I can't imagine people are staying incredibly hyped and focused on this project based on the slow drip of reveals about it.
Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
No, it was a response to Mantic filling the regimental tabletop void and GW realizing they left money on the table.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I think they just announced the project too early. Obviously the lockdown likely affected their timelines, but I can't imagine people are staying incredibly hyped and focused on this project based on the slow drip of reveals about it.
Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
Nah, it was really more because the Sisters hype cycle ended and they wanted to continue doing a series of articles showcasing the development process of a product. I think they underestimated how much content they would actually generate from the process to show us that early on in the development process and thus we've received like one update a quarter (if that) as a result.
I figure its part of the reason we have Bloodbowl and such right now. GW today realises that even if a game from them isn't making top profit, it is at the very least keeping more customers coming to them. Someone who sticks around for Bloodbowl is now getting all the GW marketing for core games as well and is more likely to stick with them. Meanwhile if people are branching out from GW for Kings of War or other games then there's more chance of GW losing them as customers in the long term. Or at the least having to "share" that customers income with another brand in the same market.
OR, GW has recognized that most of their sales revenue comes from new product releases rather than revolving stock of established product and thus increasing the volume of new releases is a surefire way to grow top line revenue. There are logistical and product lifecycle management challenges associated with cramming all that content into 1 or 2 big product lines (40k/AoS), thus diversifying the product lines into different scales (Titanicus/Aeronautica), settings (Horus Heresy, The Old World, Lord of the Rings, Warcry, Necromunda), and genres (Blood Bowl, Warhammer Quest, Underworlds, Kill Team, etc.) allows GW to diversify its product offerings and grow its release volume without overloading or diluting its primary brands with too much content. Not everything is a out "competitors", which people grossly overestimate the size and scale of - its a very significant and meaningful gap (and yes, I do have first and secondhand data on several of GWs "competitors" yearly revenues). It would be like saying Walmart is worried about what Bobs Little Family Store is doing and making business decisions to outcompete them - thats absolutely not whats happening, Walmart is making its decisions based on whats best for Walmart and not much else, the side effect of that is that Bobs is going to get crushed because whats good for Walmart is generally bad for Bobs.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
It happened on the same day as the a new kings of war edition release, so at the time people thought it was a dig at them.
No, no it didn't. Stop spreading these falsehoods. The Old World was announced in mid-November. The Kings of War 3rd Edition was on shelves and in peoples hands by mid-late October. There were people here locally that had been playing 3rd ed for several weeks before GWs announcement.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
It happened on the same day as the a new kings of war edition release, so at the time people thought it was a dig at them.
I've seen this said quite a few times now, and while I don't know anything about the game - Wikipedia says the 3rd edition released in October 2019. The Announcement for TOW was 15th November 2019. Am I missing something?
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
It happened on the same day as the a new kings of war edition release, so at the time people thought it was a dig at them.
I've seen this said quite a few times now, and while I don't know anything about the game - Wikipedia says the 3rd edition released in October 2019. The Announcement for TOW was 15th November 2019. Am I missing something?
It is a high holy crusade for the underdog (when no one else thinks there is a fight going on, not even really Mantic themselves). The only thing that really plays into it is that Mantic did some tongue in cheek 'our-prices-aren't-rising' videos after GW annual price rise announcements for a couple years. Some of the Mantic fanbase took that as open season for an antagonistic relationship that doesn't exist.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
It happened on the same day as the a new kings of war edition release, so at the time people thought it was a dig at them.
I've seen this said quite a few times now, and while I don't know anything about the game - Wikipedia says the 3rd edition released in October 2019. The Announcement for TOW was 15th November 2019. Am I missing something?
It is a high holy crusade for the underdog (when no one else thinks there is a fight going on, not even really Mantic themselves). The only thing that really plays into it is that Mantic did some tongue in cheek 'our-prices-aren't-rising' videos after GW annual price rise announcements for a couple years. Some of the Mantic fanbase took that as open season for an antagonistic relationship that doesn't exist.
There was also the "you don't need to wait for square bases" video released on like Nov 15/16 2019. Honestly that/the community response was what made me divest of the Mantic community.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Wasn't the announcement largely a response to people being really mad about AoS?
It happened on the same day as the a new kings of war edition release, so at the time people thought it was a dig at them.
I've seen this said quite a few times now, and while I don't know anything about the game - Wikipedia says the 3rd edition released in October 2019. The Announcement for TOW was 15th November 2019. Am I missing something?
It is a high holy crusade for the underdog (when no one else thinks there is a fight going on, not even really Mantic themselves). The only thing that really plays into it is that Mantic did some tongue in cheek 'our-prices-aren't-rising' videos after GW annual price rise announcements for a couple years. Some of the Mantic fanbase took that as open season for an antagonistic relationship that doesn't exist.
There was also the "you don't need to wait for square bases" video released on like Nov 15/16 2019. Honestly that/the community response was what made me divest of the Mantic community.
They also spoofed the Stormcast statue that replaced the iconic Space Marine. I remember a twitter comment that said "Yep, that's a Mantic sculpt" in reference to the "statue" that they put out(photoshopped) in front of their HQ. None of their attempts at humor really slap and always seem kind of sad or backfire, now that I think about it.
chaos0xomega wrote: No, no it didn't. Stop spreading these falsehoods. The Old World was announced in mid-November. The Kings of War 3rd Edition was on shelves and in peoples hands by mid-late October. There were people here locally that had been playing 3rd ed for several weeks before GWs announcement.
I was wrong on the dates. I was remembering the Mantic community being upset about the announcement at the time and should not have made a statement claiming a precise date. That was my mistake.
Spreading falsehoods is a bit strong though. I have no agenda here. I've never played Kings of War and I'm not very pro-GW these days. I'm tentatively curious to see how the Old World turns out, but I'm pretty skeptical of GW's current business model.
kodos wrote: and they have a point as someone doing nothing for years until GW finally release something instead of having fun with what is already availabe
I think the issue is often on availability of the local community. Eons ago when I first started playing WFB in 5th edition, the local community was really established. We had some really solid local campaigns and it was a blast. Over time, it all petered out and by 8th edition, it was on deaths door.
The issue with less popular games, kings of war in this case, is they tend not to have that community by nature of their being non-mainstream. I see people on instagram who have local communities that still actively play 6th edition WFB and it makes me jealous. But short of moving to Europe, I'm not sure what the alternative is.
I like the animations. Now, I'm happy with the models we have, but keeping low to the ground while advancing and getting a scorpion like appearance is a neat idea. Totally unfeasible as actually models of course. More so in a rank and file game. But cool to see nonetheless.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Gives CA an excuse to not only do another "Blood DLC" but a "Nipple DLC".
That's the funny thing about Slaanesh; the chaos god of desire never seems to understand that just putting boobs on demons with cow's heads, seahorse bodies, and or crab claws won't make them tantalizing or alluring.
I wish I could've been a fly on the wall when they were coming up with this stuff. Who said "I think bare breasts are soooo sensual, especially on crabs and seahorses," and who said, "That's brilliant! Let's go with that!"
Chaos is still going to be Chaos. The key is that when a Slaanesh deamonette appears in the mortal world it has a degree of power through pheromones and chaos magic to basically cast a glamour over itself.
Until that is shed you might see your lover, a beauty beyond compare. Whatever your desire is that's what the deamonette would show you. You'd see yourself kissing a beautiful blond with long legs and sensual hips, her arms wrapped around you. In reality your lips are pressed to lipless sharktoothed faces; the claws are raking down your back and the deamonettes tail is flicking whilst its clawed leg runs up and down yours.
It's not until the spell is lost that you can see the truth and those who fall to Slaanesh will either never see the glamour lifted or if they do they will no longer care.
That's part of the perversion and the twisted nature of Slaanesh and Chaos. Much like how Nurgle followers delight in the fact that their arm is torn open and weeping puss and is crawling with maggots. They don't feel the pain and any which they do is freely given to the joy of birthing those maggots. Again their minds are twisted in subtle ways toward the warped reality of Chaos.
I've long hoped that one day GW might have osmeone design half-way deamonettes as models. Creatures that are half glamour half demon showing the spell being lifted right at the moment of battle. Beautiful male and female bodies dancing like elves, transforming with a wriggling mist of detail around part of the body to then reveal the horror of the hermaphrodite deamon they really are
That's the funny thing about Slaanesh; the chaos god of desire never seems to understand that just putting boobs on demons with cow's heads, seahorse bodies, and or crab claws won't make them tantalizing or alluring.
I wish I could've been a fly on the wall when they were coming up with this stuff. Who said "I think bare breasts are soooo sensual, especially on crabs and seahorses," and who said, "That's brilliant! Let's go with that!"
That's the 80s for you. Also, drugs.
Seriously though, it's not like it's a terribly wrong idea. The intent back then was that the daemons were supposed to have the necessary physical features to allure and combine them with features that should not conventionally be considered attractive (unless you're a... connoisseur...) to inspire loathing for finding something that looks like a Slaaneshi daemon appealing, but falling for it anyway. The aim is to tempt the mortal looking at the daemon into finding enough allure in what they see to open their mind to the possibilities shedding common morality and conventions can provide. That's Slaanesh's kind of perversion. Working with conventional beauty is pointless when the aim is to overcome socially imposed inhibitions.
Not that GW allows for the "necessary physical features" part these days, really. They're relying more on the sanitized depiction of Slaanesh as overt uglies that use magic to help the allure along, as Overread points out.
Overread wrote: I've long hoped that one day GW might have osmeone design half-way deamonettes as models. Creatures that are half glamour half demon showing the spell being lifted right at the moment of battle. Beautiful male and female bodies dancing like elves, transforming with a wriggling mist of detail around part of the body to then reveal the horror of the hermaphrodite deamon they really are
I'm not saying you're wrong to like that idea, but I can't help but imagine skinny Daemonettes on huge, 50mm bases to make room for all the swirly crap you're suggesting.
Also, no to male bodies. Per the fluff Daemonettes are recognizably female in appearance. GW has screwed up enough by covering up the wrong breast on the current models (and doubling down on it on the recently released mortals...). Let's not make it worse.
Overread wrote: I've long hoped that one day GW might have osmeone design half-way deamonettes as models. Creatures that are half glamour half demon showing the spell being lifted right at the moment of battle. Beautiful male and female bodies dancing like elves, transforming with a wriggling mist of detail around part of the body to then reveal the horror of the hermaphrodite deamon they really are
I'm not saying you're wrong to like that idea, but I can't help but imagine skinny Daemonettes on huge, 50mm bases to make room for all the swirly crap you're suggesting.
Naw you could easily do it on a simple model as they are now. You just need the swirls and stuff to be mostly a surface texture. So basically take a human and a deamonette model - mash the two together and wherever human and demon parts meet just swirl and blur the detail to create a "melting/changing" textured region. Keeps the model to the same size as they are now, but gives a sense of the visual transformation as the glamour is lost and the real demon is revealed.
Overread wrote: I've long hoped that one day GW might have osmeone design half-way deamonettes as models. Creatures that are half glamour half demon showing the spell being lifted right at the moment of battle. Beautiful male and female bodies dancing like elves, transforming with a wriggling mist of detail around part of the body to then reveal the horror of the hermaphrodite deamon they really are
I'm not saying you're wrong to like that idea, but I can't help but imagine skinny Daemonettes on huge, 50mm bases to make room for all the swirly crap you're suggesting.
Naw you could easily do it on a simple model as they are now. You just need the swirls and stuff to be mostly a surface texture. So basically take a human and a deamonette model - mash the two together and wherever human and demon parts meet just swirl and blur the detail to create a "melting/changing" textured region. Keeps the model to the same size as they are now, but gives a sense of the visual transformation as the glamour is lost and the real demon is revealed.
What can I say? I agree with you that it can be done. I just don't expect it from GW. Subtlety isn't exactly their strong suit.
Frankly it's not even general subtlety. GW's designers heavily trend towards crisp, clear delineation, which is great for a lot of reasons, but seriously gets in the way of blending different aesthetics into each other. It's why I've been constantly disappointed by fleshy/armored Chaos models. Warriors of Chaos Forsaken, Possessed Marines, Daemon Engines, GW has consistently failed to blend organic and inorganic bits well for decades.
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
Ice Magic was its own thing - tied to Kislev itself since its lore began, the Ice Witches were in lore a powerful, organised force - politically, magically and generally since the days their ancestor Queen rode in and took over. The idea of powerful spirits of the land were formulated long ago including giant manifestations not unlike the new bear/elemental.
Now I would agree that the bear side of things has got a bit out of hand......and I am not sure we needed a Rasputin style figure as it does not really fit.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
And yet a lot of that was more in the lore than on the tabletop. In a sense we always have this disconnect in wargames.
Heck I never read BL books when I first got into Warhammer; it was over a decade before I even bothered to read any. So how I perceived the setting was based purely on tabletop and the few battletomes that I'd read.
This is the same for many; they build a visual image of the setting based on the models GW sells and a few bits of lore in core books. They don't dip into the vast published history of books or previous battletomes or rulebooks etc... for bits of expanded lore
Mentlegen324 wrote: Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
so non-canon source that is OOP well guess I should dig out the old short stories from the 90ies to tell how Chaos actually work as it is neither good nor evil and always has been that way
(and there is a lot from the RPG and BL books that is already "wrong" because the game went in a different direction with 8th)
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".
Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
so non-canon source that is OOP well guess I should dig out the old short stories from the 90ies to tell how Chaos actually work as it is neither good nor evil and always has been that way
(and there is a lot from the RPG and BL books that is already "wrong" because the game went in a different direction with 8th)
Spoiler:
Well going by an 8th armybook they were still able to get bears as a cavalry type.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".
Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.
All bears. All the time!
Well, no, every character can be mounted on a bear, but they can take a war horse instead. The two tiers of chariots/sleds are pulled by bears, as are the precious few relic artillery pieces, and the elemental bear is definitely a centrepiece. But there are light horsemen dervishes, light horse archers, the winged lancers, and then the heavier Gryphon Legion, in addition to the bear cavalry.
It might be hard to optimize a force without relying on bears, considering they're presumably the top tier upgrade for leaders, but it's certainly possible to build an army without them. It's not as bad as people are remembering, though I do accept that it's a bit disappointing that it can be boiled down to "Is it optimal or is it not an ice magic/bear/magic ice bear unit?"
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".
Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.
All bears. All the time!
Yup. I loved the boyar on a bear model back in the day but I winced when I saw it was seemingly the focus/schtick of the entire faction seemingly.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".
Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
so non-canon source that is OOP well guess I should dig out the old short stories from the 90ies to tell how Chaos actually work as it is neither good nor evil and always has been that way
(and there is a lot from the RPG and BL books that is already "wrong" because the game went in a different direction with 8th)
That isn't how canon works with Warhammer. Old lore doesn't just suddenly become non-canon because its old or OOP, it does so when it gets contradicted or replaced by something and even then, maybe not. Something like Gaunts Ghosts or the early Gotrek and Felix novels aren't now non-canon because they were made 20 years ago in different editions of their settings and things have changed since - aspects in them might be incorrect now, but overall, they're still just as much still part of the settings. Neither is this being lore from the RPGs something that makes it non-canon, as those were still official products. Just where was that Kislev lore retconned to make what was shown in the RPG non-canon? Or where did Kislev lore go back to being a faction that didn't have all this heavy emphasis on Ice magic and bears so that this version is now a flanderization of that?
The point is that the direction TOW and TW:W3 have taken Kislev isn't something that's a sudden change, as this sort of thing is how they were portrayed in their lore since 2004. It's not flanderization to have Kislev depicted as Kislev.
Yep There is alot of originl and old lore that has come back into Total War and 4th ed WFRP - all of which content have to be approved by GW and with whom they are offically working with on the Old World Project.
I am hoping we get more of this lore back again......blended with the new.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Independently of kodos, I was thinking how this would be akin to how the Empire relaunch would see Runefangs redesigned as hammers, with Greatswords, Flagellants, and Witch Hunters now also wielding large hammers instead of swords, and the Steam Tank's impact hits were now caused by a large pneumatic hammer. Plus the Helstorm Rocket Battery's rockets were flying exploding hammers or something.
Hammers have always been iconic within the Empire setting, but most of the time only as icons, a design motif, rather than being practically used. This gave a unifying theme (in addition to their broad early Renaissance Holy Roman Empire style), while making the actual hammer-wielders like Karl Franz and the Warrior Priests feel special. This is almost exactly how I feel about past Kislev versus new Kislev. Even with the above, the vast majority of the Empire's units would be as hammerless as they are now, but that doesn't take away the fact that the formerly mild hammer-theme would have been significantly expanded to the point of overuse.
Hmm yeah this is very much what happened with the first Stormcast waves, but seeing that GW are gradually moving away from 'hammers only' here this might leave some hope for non-bear-themed Kislev units (totally into them getting *some* bear cavalry units, ofc).
Funnily now it's Mantic who are going hammers all the way with their non-Stormcast Orc faction, so I'm sure there will be also enough options for any kind of flanderized Kislev-style minis on the market once TOW arrives ^^
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Independently of kodos, I was thinking how this would be akin to how the Empire relaunch would see Runefangs redesigned as hammers, with Greatswords, Flagellants, and Witch Hunters now also wielding large hammers instead of swords, and the Steam Tank's impact hits were now caused by a large pneumatic hammer. Plus the Helstorm Rocket Battery's rockets were flying exploding hammers or something.
Hammers have always been iconic within the Empire setting, but most of the time only as icons, a design motif, rather than being practically used. This gave a unifying theme (in addition to their broad early Renaissance Holy Roman Empire style), while making the actual hammer-wielders like Karl Franz and the Warrior Priests feel special. This is almost exactly how I feel about past Kislev versus new Kislev. Even with the above, the vast majority of the Empire's units would be as hammerless as they are now, but that doesn't take away the fact that the formerly mild hammer-theme would have been significantly expanded to the point of overuse.
I don't think that's an apt comparison at all. The Empire doesn't have hammers integrated as part of their overall culture and theming whereas Kislev does have bears and Ice Magic heavily ingrained into their daily lives and featured throughout their society, not just as the occasional design motif that pops up. Your Empire example would be flanderization of how the Empire is depicted in the setting at the moment, yes, but if the Empire's lore already had them with Hammer priests who follow a religion that worships hammers with a god of Hammers who takes the form of a holy hammer and Hammers were considered an important part of their lives and rituals and part of the Empire's overall culture and hammers were just seen as a sacred thing overall that they make use of lots but for some reason that was only in their lore and not their model range? That would be a different matter.
The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.
It also depends which bit of lore you look at. Eg in the Gotrek and Felix stories where we meet Ulrika and her family we see a Kislev that is very much horses and your basic boarder kingdom holding off with the might of men alone against the Chaos incursions.
It's that very basic, almost real depiction of an army and armed force. Bears and Ice magic do not appear.
Indeed its not until the Queens forces arrive at the siege that we see any real use of magical powers en-mass from the Ice side of things. Even then I don't have a great recollection of bears featuring. However it was very much a sign of Kislev having a greater power that just, at the time, wasn't roused to war.
It's likely many connect the lack of ice magic and bears en-mass because they are looking at Kislev as the outer holds. Those which are not powerful nor influential enough to have access to the greater powers. Furthermore those holds hold well on their own against your basic Chaos Lord leading marauders from the wastes; not whole armies organised into massive invasion forces which would rouse the armies of Kislev en-mass.
It's the same as if you were to look at the Empire through the Boarder Princes. You might see a hedge wizard or such, but otherwise you'd not see powerful mages nor steam tanks or such. You'd see a portion of the more basic forces. It's only when you see the Empire go to war at the large scale (which is very much what Total War shows); that you start to see Steam Tanks, College Mages, powerful Priests and more exotic weapons and such become commonplace.
Mentlegen324 wrote: The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.
This is a reductive look at the complaints.
To quote myself:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".
Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.
There are other types of Kislev units (some sort of deer/stag unit whose name escapes me), and their characters should be able to ride hordes as well as bears. But outside of one unit, everything else is bears.
Now I personally believe that it's because they're holding that stuff back from DLC, but even if that is the case, it creates a lopsided roster that suddenly has bears everywhere without expanding cavalry anywhere else.
Mentlegen324 wrote: The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.
This is a reductive look at the complaints.
To quote myself:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".
Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.
There are other types of Kislev units (some sort of deer/stag unit whose name escapes me), and their characters should be able to ride hordes as well as bears. But outside of one unit, everything else is bears.
Now I personally believe that it's because they're holding that stuff back from DLC, but even if that is the case, it creates a lopsided roster that suddenly has bears everywhere without expanding cavalry anywhere else.
I just checked the Total War Kislev roster. There are four horse mounted cavalry units and one bear mounted one. Kossovite Dervishes, Winged Lancers, Gryphon Legion and Horse Archers, and then Bear Cavalry. The Sleds and Artillery are pulled by bears, and the characters can ride both. Seems pretty balanced to me.
Love how they actually put "Not riding bears" as a "Notable characteristic" bullet point of the Gryphon Legion (although I'm now confused why they aren't riding ... gryphons, but I guess this might be Kislev fluff from when gryphon riders weren't a generic Empire thing yet)
Mentlegen324 wrote: The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.
This is a reductive look at the complaints.
To quote myself:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".
Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.
There are other types of Kislev units (some sort of deer/stag unit whose name escapes me), and their characters should be able to ride hordes as well as bears. But outside of one unit, everything else is bears.
Now I personally believe that it's because they're holding that stuff back from DLC, but even if that is the case, it creates a lopsided roster that suddenly has bears everywhere without expanding cavalry anywhere else.
I just checked the Total War Kislev roster. There are four horse mounted cavalry units and one bear mounted one. Kossovite Dervishes, Winged Lancers, Gryphon Legion and Horse Archers, and then Bear Cavalry. The Sleds and Artillery are pulled by bears, and the characters can ride both. Seems pretty balanced to me.
Yep its a unit of bear cavalry, a bear sled unit (split as 3 different unit options but all in essence the same thing), and bears as special mounts. And I suppose the Elemental bear.
I really don't see any flanderization there. I do think that the basic sled at least should have used normal houses instead to make the other variants a bit more special, but bears being high-end mounts and powerful beasts of burden isn't some outlandish change for Kislev that makes them all all about bears all the time. The Spirit of the land of Kislev was said to be a bear, so that Elemental bear makes sense too.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Independently of kodos, I was thinking how this would be akin to how the Empire relaunch would see Runefangs redesigned as hammers, with Greatswords, Flagellants, and Witch Hunters now also wielding large hammers instead of swords, and the Steam Tank's impact hits were now caused by a large pneumatic hammer. Plus the Helstorm Rocket Battery's rockets were flying exploding hammers or something.
Hammers have always been iconic within the Empire setting, but most of the time only as icons, a design motif, rather than being practically used. This gave a unifying theme (in addition to their broad early Renaissance Holy Roman Empire style), while making the actual hammer-wielders like Karl Franz and the Warrior Priests feel special. This is almost exactly how I feel about past Kislev versus new Kislev. Even with the above, the vast majority of the Empire's units would be as hammerless as they are now, but that doesn't take away the fact that the formerly mild hammer-theme would have been significantly expanded to the point of overuse.
I don't think that's an apt comparison at all. The Empire doesn't have hammers integrated as part of their overall culture and theming whereas Kislev does have bears and Ice Magic heavily ingrained into their daily lives and featured throughout their society, not just as the occasional design motif that pops up. Your Empire example would be flanderization of how the Empire is depicted in the setting at the moment, yes, but if the Empire's lore already had them with Hammer priests who follow a religion that worships hammers with a god of Hammers who takes the form of a holy hammer and Hammers were considered an important part of their lives and rituals and part of the Empire's overall culture and hammers were just seen as a sacred thing overall that they make use of lots but for some reason that was only in their lore and not their model range? That would be a different matter.
The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.
"meant to be" based on what? We're both basing our views on a subset of previously published material, just different subsets.
My views on Kislev's military are based on the Warmaster army list, and the most comprehensive combination of Kislev lore and WHFB rules ever published, in Citadel Journals 14-16. Yes, there are bears. But the War Wagon was pulled by horses, as was the Tzarina's sled, and even the so-called "Brotherhood of the Bear" were rangers ridings horses. Because riding a bear is much more interesting when it's rare. It was quite consistently depicted as being related to religious orders or special events related to their bear god. Not something used by every character who wants one, several units and even as a beast of burden.
Hence my previous comparison to hammers in the Empire. Depicted everywhere, used rarely. Despite the fact that there are fewer arguments against using a hammer than riding around on a bear, or using one to pull your vehicle.
I just long for the days when Archaon was considered imposing even when riding around on what was essentially a big angry horse. If everything is special, nothing is special.
I can understand when this happens with magical stuff like demygryphs.
But bears? Like. They are normal animals. Why us humans use horses and not bears is from a design standpoint completely arbitrary to a fantasy setting, theres nothing more common about horses than bears. Or mundane.
Is not different than orks riding boars or goblins riding wolves. And as has been noted in the kislevite roster is something for elite cavalry units, for pulling out heavy waggons or heavy artillery thats also ultra rare.
Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.
Mr Morden wrote: Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.
Wolves or boars couldn't bear a human
Indeed these boars are special magical fantasy boars that they can carry along a much bigger orc for a battle without collapsing.
Mr Morden wrote: Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.
Wolves aren't ridden. They carry a willing snack on their back.
Mr Morden wrote: Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.
One man did even, if the picture is bit political.
triplegrim wrote: So, who thinks the aestethics of TOO will be swirling hair and tentacles everywhere? Or will it be more realistic and mundane?
Judging by the Ice Guard with Bear Claws riding Bears for the Ice Queen flanderisation, it's going to be the former.
That isn't flanderization when bears and ice magic were something that was already a big part of their theming.
Literal bear rider model made by GW to boot...
Like "mary sue" the term gets thrown around so much the actual meaning is diluted :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: I can understand when this happens with magical stuff like demygryphs.
But bears? Like. They are normal animals. Why us humans use horses and not bears is from a design standpoint completely arbitrary to a fantasy setting, theres nothing more common about horses than bears. Or mundane.
Is not different than orks riding boars or goblins riding wolves. And as has been noted in the kislevite roster is something for elite cavalry units, for pulling out heavy waggons or heavy artillery thats also ultra rare.
They aren't the same species of non-magical creatures. Different species have different behaviors, to say nothing of how non-human races may go about domesticating them.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Independently of kodos, I was thinking how this would be akin to how the Empire relaunch would see Runefangs redesigned as hammers, with Greatswords, Flagellants, and Witch Hunters now also wielding large hammers instead of swords, and the Steam Tank's impact hits were now caused by a large pneumatic hammer. Plus the Helstorm Rocket Battery's rockets were flying exploding hammers or something.
Hammers have always been iconic within the Empire setting, but most of the time only as icons, a design motif, rather than being practically used. This gave a unifying theme (in addition to their broad early Renaissance Holy Roman Empire style), while making the actual hammer-wielders like Karl Franz and the Warrior Priests feel special. This is almost exactly how I feel about past Kislev versus new Kislev. Even with the above, the vast majority of the Empire's units would be as hammerless as they are now, but that doesn't take away the fact that the formerly mild hammer-theme would have been significantly expanded to the point of overuse.
I don't think that's an apt comparison at all. The Empire doesn't have hammers integrated as part of their overall culture and theming whereas Kislev does have bears and Ice Magic heavily ingrained into their daily lives and featured throughout their society, not just as the occasional design motif that pops up. Your Empire example would be flanderization of how the Empire is depicted in the setting at the moment, yes, but if the Empire's lore already had them with Hammer priests who follow a religion that worships hammers with a god of Hammers who takes the form of a holy hammer and Hammers were considered an important part of their lives and rituals and part of the Empire's overall culture and hammers were just seen as a sacred thing overall that they make use of lots but for some reason that was only in their lore and not their model range? That would be a different matter.
The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.
"meant to be" based on what? We're both basing our views on a subset of previously published material, just different subsets.
My views on Kislev's military are based on the Warmaster army list, and the most comprehensive combination of Kislev lore and WHFB rules ever published, in Citadel Journals 14-16. Yes, there are bears. But the War Wagon was pulled by horses, as was the Tzarina's sled, and even the so-called "Brotherhood of the Bear" were rangers ridings horses. Because riding a bear is much more interesting when it's rare. It was quite consistently depicted as being related to religious orders or special events related to their bear god. Not something used by every character who wants one, several units and even as a beast of burden.
Hence my previous comparison to hammers in the Empire. Depicted everywhere, used rarely. Despite the fact that there are fewer arguments against using a hammer than riding around on a bear, or using one to pull your vehicle.
I just long for the days when Archaon was considered imposing even when riding around on what was essentially a big angry horse. If everything is special, nothing is special.
Look at Citadel Journal 15 again, because there's bears in contexts that aren't some religious or special circumstances. Every hero unit there who wants a bear can get one as they can take a monster mount, one of which the options is a great bear. There's also the Beast Tamer unit that's a pretty normal thing and unit even mentions they've taken into battle for a long time. And while the "Sons of Ursa" unit that has bear mounts is a religious order based at a temple to the great spirit bear, their use of war bear mounts isn't hinted as being something exclusive to them at all (The description merely says they spend time learning the art of war at the temple)- the worship of bears extends to the rest of Kislev too, as mentioned in the War Bear unit for TW:W3. The TW:W3 unit may even end up being the Sons of Ursa as the roster page for them isn't fully detailed.
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.
Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.
triplegrim wrote: Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
Prior to the latest round of how many bears Kislev should have, there was a post with a "rumor" from Faeit* that said GW plans to post an update of some substance in the new year. Something to that effect.
Look guys, we all know what this is really about. GW dropped the ball and rather than admitting their mistake they are resorting to half measures.
There were never enough bears in the Kislev army.
From their original onset they should have had units of bear cavalry. And Winged Hussar bear cavalry. And units of war bears. And werebears. And aspiring werebears. And a dual kit for lightly armoured aspiring/werebear bear riders. Werebear shamans of the bear, giant ice bears ridden by said werebears. Artillery pulled by bears, melee oriented beariots, beariot mount option for characters. Spell which turns enemy units into war bears. Manifest bear spirits. Ice bear variants for all of the above as an upgrade option. Bear diver artillery that fire bears with wings strapped onto them into the enemy.
The unfortunate reality is that we're never going to get what SHOULD have been, and we will have to make peace with that.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.
Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.
It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2004 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.
The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.
Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.
Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.
It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2004 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.
The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.
Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.
Don't use actual facts about what the fluff of the faction was from its inception. It cannot fight agaisnt the mental image people made on their own head for more than 10+ years about what a faction should be.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.
Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.
It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2004 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.
The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.
Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.
Don't use actual facts about what the fluff of the faction was from its inception. It cannot fight agaisnt the mental image people made on their own head for more than 10+ years about what a faction should be.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.
They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.
Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.
It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2007. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2007 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.
The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.
Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.
Don't use actual facts about what the fluff of the faction was from its inception. It cannot fight agaisnt the mental image people made on their own head for more than 10+ years about what a faction should be.
Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons,
Yes, but they have been killing all male mages since at least 2009, havent they? So which is it? Is something cannon if it existed in the 90s but havent been seen much since?
The Kislev 'Army book' mentions "Bear" 34 times, reaching near wulfing the wolf claw with the wolfing wolf power levels.
None of these references are to bear cavalry. On the contrary, Tsar Boris riding one is portrayed as near legendary status.
I've played warhammer since 2000 or so, and known about the hobby even earlier, and I did not imagine Kislev as bear riding russians at all. Because I have never seen it in 28mm GW material, nor models for it. For all its existence in a 1996 book, fact is that they havent had bears as cavalry for a generation. The Kislev Allied contingent could take exactly 1 bear. Same for their Mordheim team. This has been the situation for longer than the interwar perios between the two world wars.
Might be players like yourself always considered the Kislev faction to use bears as war horses and pulling their cannons and having magic ice arrow shooting troops, but I cant agree that this has been their image since 6th edition. If anything whatever models have been available and whatever table top material has been released have been of a fairly mundane, almost historical war game faction. I think having bears as regular mounts and as "sled horses" for guns are changing the kislev image that they have had for decades.
Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.
I agree that this is the issue of it, and anyone who joined when Kislev was using the allied contingent book (the only one they ever had or?) has never seen bear cavalry or magic ice archeresses in the game, unless they went digging into oop books and novels.
What's funny to me is that the regular units also got expanded just as much. The ratio of normal to crazy didn't really change, but some people blaze right past a half-dozen normal to bitch about one unit of bear riders.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
I mean in the PDF linked by Tripleglim it talks about how Katarina actually made the Kislevite palace bigger with a whole new building made of pure ice Elsa style.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons,
Yes, but they have been killing all male mages since at least 2009, havent they? So which is it? Is something cannon if it existed in the 90s but havent been seen much since?
The Kislev 'Army book' mentions "Bear" 34 times, reaching near wulfing the wolf claw with the wolfing wolf power levels.
None of these references are to bear cavalry. On the contrary, Tsar Boris riding one is portrayed as near legendary status.
I've played warhammer since 2000 or so, and known about the hobby even earlier, and I did not imagine Kislev as bear riding russians at all. Because I have never seen it in 28mm GW material, nor models for it. For all its existence in a 1996 book, fact is that they havent had bears as cavalry for a generation. The Kislev Allied contingent could take exactly 1 bear. Same for their Mordheim team. This has been the situation for longer than the interwar perios between the two world wars.
Might be players like yourself always considered the Kislev faction to use bears as war horses and pulling their cannons and having magic ice arrow shooting troops, but I cant agree that this has been their image since 6th edition. If anything whatever models have been available and whatever table top material has been released have been of a fairly mundane, almost historical war game faction. I think having bears as regular mounts and as "sled horses" for guns are changing the kislev image that they have had for decades.
Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.
I agree that this is the issue of it, and anyone who joined when Kislev was using the allied contingent book (the only one they ever had or?) has never seen bear cavalry or magic ice archeresses in the game, unless they went digging into oop books and novels.
My phone went into seizure mode when I clicked on that link. When was it published and where, so I can read it myself?
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
triplegrim wrote: I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.
The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons,
Yes, but they have been killing all male mages since at least 2009, havent they? So which is it? Is something cannon if it existed in the 90s but havent been seen much since?
The Kislev 'Army book' mentions "Bear" 34 times, reaching near wulfing the wolf claw with the wolfing wolf power levels.
None of these references are to bear cavalry. On the contrary, Tsar Boris riding one is portrayed as near legendary status.
I've played warhammer since 2000 or so, and known about the hobby even earlier, and I did not imagine Kislev as bear riding russians at all. Because I have never seen it in 28mm GW material, nor models for it. For all its existence in a 1996 book, fact is that they havent had bears as cavalry for a generation. The Kislev Allied contingent could take exactly 1 bear. Same for their Mordheim team. This has been the situation for longer than the interwar perios between the two world wars.
Might be players like yourself always considered the Kislev faction to use bears as war horses and pulling their cannons and having magic ice arrow shooting troops, but I cant agree that this has been their image since 6th edition. If anything whatever models have been available and whatever table top material has been released have been of a fairly mundane, almost historical war game faction. I think having bears as regular mounts and as "sled horses" for guns are changing the kislev image that they have had for decades.
Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.
I agree that this is the issue of it, and anyone who joined when Kislev was using the allied contingent book (the only one they ever had or?) has never seen bear cavalry or magic ice archeresses in the game, unless they went digging into oop books and novels.
I do get it, to someone who got introduced to them via the 6th edition army book that would have given the impression they're a relatively normal faction, but my point is that - even if you someone didn't notice the other stuff - those design elements are something GW decided to add to Kislev both before and after that army book was released, they are not some sudden change they've now decided to introduce for Kislev for TOW and TW:W3, things like this have been part of them for years. They haven't taken Kislev in some drastic new direction that's flanderizing them where they're suddenly all about bears and ice magic and that sort of thing, this is Kislev properly being shown to their full extent as their lore, something that wasn't really done before in terms of their miniatures - Kislev never go a full codex to the same level others did, they got a small supplement with some units and lore published via White Dwarf - a 34 page book rather than being a proper full army. Beyond that their appearance in miniatures consisted of little more than a few Warmaster units, but their lore many times has depicted them as a faction with mysical elements, ice magic, and bears.
I'm not too sure when Kislev first appeared originally, but what I've found looking into this more:
4th edition Warhammer Armies: The empire, released in 1993 (...or 1996? Found both dates), has Kislev included but is very brief. They are depicted as more of a grounded human faction at this stage, but it's very, very brief; it basically amounts to a small amount of lore of pretty much "There's a place called Kislev" and 3-4 units. Winged Lancers, Katarin etc. Mentions Kislev is ruled by warrior-sorcerers with their magic based on the land itself and Frost/ice focused. Magic Ice Hawks, Ice Bridge that can carry units, Fearfrost as a magic frost sword etc. Art of Boris Usra riding a bear is shown, albeit it seems he isn't actually talked about at all so appears to not be a character...just a guy riding a bear. Also unclear if this is meant to be the same as Boris Ursus a few years later.
The 1996 Citadel Journal list had fantastical elements, including Bear mounts for heroes, Bear Cavalry, packs of bears and Baba Yaga. Common later lore things like their bear god, bears being sacred etc are mentioned here as similar to later lore but i'm unsure what was and wasn't already established in more "official" sources before this article, so while it's debatable as to how canonical the stuff here is (Citadel Journal is an official publication, but people could submit stuff), some of the things included here did also appear in definitely more official sources - I'm just unsure when specifically some of that first appeared and what is and isn't already established for them by the time this article was written.
Their Warmaster army list in 2002, had packs of tamed bears and bear mounts and a spell to transform into a giant bear (and mentions they build temples in which they keep pits full of bears to send out to war). That old art of Boris Ursa on a bear appears again.
The Ambassador series, Written by Graham Mcneill in 2003/2004, supposedly had those mystical fantasy elements included - Katarina apparently summons spirits of Kislev warriors in bodies of ice, for example. Bokha palace also has parts entire sections made of ice.
Their 6th edition army in 2003 did not have much in the way of that side of things, mostly just Boris Ursus as the most out-there in terms of units, albeit the book did depict conversions of both a hero on giant bear and bear cavalry. Their connection to various spirits are mentioned but its unclear as to if they book considers them as real or not. It mentions the religion involving bears with a God of Bears who takes the form of a bear - so despite the lack of bear units, bears are still said to be a very important thing to Kislev overall. Magical lore for different Gods are mentioned. The palace having sections made of ice are mentioned by the book too.
The Warhammer RPG "Realm of the Ice Queen" expansion released in 2007 once again follows the fantasy Kislev side and is the most comprehensive depiction of Kislev out of the lot - because its an RPG there's a lot of stuff. The various spirits mentioned previously are defined more specifically, there's magical creatures like Frostfiends and Firebirds, Hag Witches (like Baba Yaga was) are there, the map of the city of Kislev shows Bokha palace with the ice structure parts, Katarina has the enchanted Ice Palace, it details the importance of the Ice Witches, all the ice magic like ice weapons, the other cults/gods appear again with magic for them etc.
I'm sure there's probably more that I haven't found.
My point is that on multiple occasions throughout the years they've had elements like that already. As is typical of Warhammer lore stuff got depicted in more detail as time went on, but it's not a new direction that Kislev has suddenly gone in. Even if you discount the Citadel Journal part, the other sources still have them with bears in common use, plenty of mentions of the mystical nature/land of Kislev spirit side, and Ice Magic as a focus. Certainly nothing that makes the bear cavalry unit, Magic spirit bear, Ice Mage unit or the sled flanderization. It was a bit scattered over multiple different places, but they're all in line with what was already there throughout the years, just their army list in tabletop didn't really reflect things too well.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
Your point is quite irrelevant. What I said was to do with those being examples of more fantastical Kislev lore that have been there for a long time, nothing along the lines of "It has Ice in the name so it must be made of Ice". I was stating examples of things in Kislev have were there early on that had already been established as being along the same lines of fantasical as the new stuff seen recently.
If you look up the lore for them you'll quite clearly see it stated how they are not just names and that actually is the case for theml though, the "Ice Palace" (Bokha palace) is actually made of Ice and has been stated as such even since its depictions even in the 6th edition army book, for example. Hence the relevance to how the significant magic ice theming shown now is not some sudden drastic change. The Lore behind them is the relevant part and what's why i gave them as examples, not because of their the names.
(the Frozen Court example was me mis-understanding something though, as i had got the impression it was a specific organization/court of Ice Witches, but it seems it's just what Katarin's court is called rather than a specific group with a purpose itself)
A better question if they have traditionally been portrayed as high or low fantasy faction, is perhaps if they should be released in TOO as heavily into the former or latter...
triplegrim wrote: A better question if they have traditionally been portrayed as high or low fantasy faction, is perhaps if they should be released in TOO as heavily into the former or latter...
Same as all previous Warhammer game I would expect:
A mxiture of the immensley powerful - High Elf Lords atop Dragons as well as the humble - a gobbo with a plank of wood with a nail in it.
So Kislev can have a giant bear spirit model and basic Horse Archers.
streetsamurai wrote: To be honest, the bokha palace new wing being made of ice is not presented as a fact, but as a rumour
. One entire wing is fashioned from ice; its frosty battlements and glittering flying buttresses shimmer with Ice Magic, and on a sunny day, its beauty is breathtaking, resembling a vast ice sculpture rising from the ground. Armoured knights with helms crafted in the shape of snarling bears patrol the palace’s perimeter at all times, and though the palace is exquisite to look at, its defences are every bit as formidable as the city walls. This palace is the dwelling place of the Ice Queen and is where foreign emissaries and her boyarin are granted audiences. The common people of Kislev will never set foot within the palace unless under exceptional circumstances, but once a year, the Ice Queen gives leave that they may promenade the cold paths of her Winter Gardens, where food and gifts are distributed to her people
The most famous portion of the palace is known as the Gallery of Heroes, which sits within the magically created ice wing of the palace.
streetsamurai wrote: To be honest, the bokha palace new wing being made of ice is not presented as a fact, but as a rumour
The Ambassador novel series, from 2003, supposedly has it and its made of ice. The RPG "realm of the Ice Queen" released after the army book also has it made of Ice in both text and picture. I don't think 1 out of 3 times it's mentioned using the term "It is said" turns it into an unsure thing. The same section also said "It's said" that Katarins Ice Magic powers come from the land of kislev itself, something that actually is a fact anyway.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
Yes, that's how Black Library books tend to work. Next?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
Yes, that's how Black Library books tend to work. Next?
You're going to have some conflicting canon to deal with. I think I'll stick to the wargame. Its messy enough as it is.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
I know you want to defend your position.
The thing is, you don't need to. You can have your vision of Kislev. And thats totally fine. Like, I don't like mechanical horses for my vision of the empire.
But the truth is, lore accurate Kislev is what has been shown on Total War Warhammer 3. And it has been that way since forever, in all forms of Kislevite lore. And it has been put here with sources from very gentle and studied posters.
At this point, if people want to still say that ice weapons aren't kislev, bears aren't kislev, ice magic isn't kislev, is their right. But they would be wrong in whats actually Kislev in the fluff from its inception.
And even then, you only need to look at Kislev roster to see that 90% of their units are normal humans with normal weapons or normal humans mounted in horses. But just like Greater Demons always being giant in the fluff but only recently being giant in tabletop form by the limits of the technology, the representation of kislev of the tabletop was a limitation of the limited roster and the age, but as always the fluff was much more magical and fantastical.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
What part of the last 40 years of warhammer made you think GW does subtlety? If something is called the ice palace, it's made out of fething ice yo. You call someone the ice queen? It's cause the was elsa before elsa was cool (or cold).
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
Yes that is how GW works. You see how Warhammer Fantasy navy worked because of another GW game. You see how other life happens because they decided to publish some lore blurb in an old article of White Dwarf because the maker thought it would be cool to talk about it that day.
All that you are clarifying is that you don't understand how Games Workshop has operated.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
#
....Yes? That's just how the lore works. Do you not realize that Warhammer is a franchise that encompasses several different media formats and isn't just a miniatures game? It's absurd to try and say that the novels, animations, comics, reference books etc based on GWs IPs don't count as part of the settings lore because they're not the army books - they're still official releases made with the intent of showing you more of the setting. The army books are something that's primarily done to give you the rules rather than an in-depth dive into lore anyway. Just what do you think those are if they aren't the lore?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
Yes that is how GW works.
until some designer writing the new army books diced to ignore all those things (because he never read them) and makes up something in direct conflict to his lore form WD, BL, RPG.
whatever is written in the latest Army Books is canon and have priority, whatever other source is there is only valid of not in conflict with the AB and if it is not written for an older edition (eg the old Konrad trilogy is not canon any more)
Lore reading is curious because for the amount of people who are eager to debate for hours based on what they read in the rulebook and codex/battletome; many do not read the novels, the rpg games or other supporting material that gets released over time. One part is that GW doesn't push BL ,marketing as heavily (They do better now but its not as heavily pushed still); another part is that your rulebook and battletome/codex are "essential" purchases to play.
Storybooks and RPG books are not essential to play the wargame. They are optional and thus often get a lower priority assigned to them. So even if you are aware of them, you might just never find the free money because you're always saving for that next unit or that next rules edition.
Another thing is that reading stories and such is a different interest/hobby and whlist it does overlap well with wargaming hobbies, its not always a certain overlap. So some just don't want to read the other material.
It's one reason that the lore debates can get a bit strange because some are debating from just the core material; whilst others are bringing in supporting material from outside. Then you factor in that different authors/material will focus on different aspects of the same lore; will get little bits wrong/different between them and then that the lore does evolve and shift over time so someone who engaged with it all 20 years ago might have slightly different impressions/specifics than someone who engages only with modern material today.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a lot of people who don't read the lore it seems.
The lore in whfb is in the army books. Is it fair to call something from another game, the rpg system, or some spin off novels that didnt sell that well for 'the lore'?
Yes that is how GW works.
and if it is not written for an older edition (eg the old Konrad trilogy is not canon any more)
If "not being written during an older edition" was the criteria then by that logic all those 40k novels released before July 2020 are now irrelevant.
When the books were released doesn't matter much, it's whether the lore within them has been explicitly retconned that's the important part.
If "not being written during an older edition" was the criteria then by that logic all those 40k novels released before July 2020 are now irrelevant.
yes, if you want the Space Wolves Fluff, the Ragnar books are now all irrelevant not just the details given that are directly retconned by the last Codex but the whole series of previous BL books because they are build upon a retconned part of the lore (aka the facts given by an old Codex that is now replaced with different facts)
same as all Warhammer lore written with the old Storm of Chaos lore in the back are now irrelevant because the End Times retconned that part of the lore (and everything build around it)
And the new lore for Total War also follows the older lore for Kislev - so no issue right?
Note that GW approves all that CA do. The C7 rpg games have the same deal and recently in say Soulbound, have been built around what was happening in the campaign books.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
What part of the last 40 years of warhammer made you think GW does subtlety? If something is called the ice palace, it's made out of fething ice yo. You call someone the ice queen? It's cause the was elsa before elsa was cool (or cold).
It seems a number of people in this thread struggle with reading comprehension. "Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details..." is a pretty important statement here. The point is that Mentlegen was premising his argument around what things were named rather than what they actually are. If he wanted to prove his point he should have provided details to support it, as he did with his examples about Bear worship
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
What part of the last 40 years of warhammer made you think GW does subtlety? If something is called the ice palace, it's made out of fething ice yo. You call someone the ice queen? It's cause the was elsa before elsa was cool (or cold).
It seems a number of people in this thread struggle with reading comprehension. "Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details..." is a pretty important statement here. The point is that Mentlegen was premising his argument around what things were named rather than what they actually are. If he wanted to prove his point he should have provided details to support it, as he did with his examples about Bear worship
No, i was not "premising around what things were named rather than what they actually are", I gave a list of stuff already part of the lore that contained "Ice magic and bear theming". You then wrongly decided that's what I meant just because a few of those examples coincidentally happen to have Ice-themed names. I didn't "provide details" about each thing because it was a list simply to give examples of what as already there and it should have been fairly evident to someone with at least a surface-level understanding of KIslev lore that ,for example, the Ice Queen actually does have Ice Magic.
lord_blackfang wrote: tl;dr: "We have nothing to show for The Old World because we've been busy writing lore for Total War."
...Except both the lore and miniatures are for The Old World?
Last time when they said "the Warhammer Studio went so far as to establish each and every unit for use on the tabletop" some dismissed the idea of them actually being part of tabletop and said that was probably just done for TW:W3 balance and such, but now GW has outright said they're coming.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
What part of the last 40 years of warhammer made you think GW does subtlety? If something is called the ice palace, it's made out of fething ice yo. You call someone the ice queen? It's cause the was elsa before elsa was cool (or cold).
It seems a number of people in this thread struggle with reading comprehension. "Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details..." is a pretty important statement here. The point is that Mentlegen was premising his argument around what things were named rather than what they actually are. If he wanted to prove his point he should have provided details to support it, as he did with his examples about Bear worship
No, i was not "premising around what things were named rather than what they actually are", I gave a list of stuff already part of the lore that contained "Ice magic and bear theming". You then wrongly decided that's what I meant just because a few of those examples coincidentally happen to have Ice-themed names. I didn't "provide details" about each thing because it was a list simply to give examples of what as already there and it should have been fairly evident to someone with at least a surface-level understanding of KIslev lore that ,for example, the Ice Queen actually does have Ice Magic.
You would benefit from learning how to debate and studying episomology. Saying "I'm right because here is a list of items you may or may not be familiar with that proves it" won't get you anywhere. Saying "I'm right because here are detailed examples that corroborate and reinforce my point of view" will. You did the first one (Bear example notwithstanding, but you will note we aren't discussing the bears and that I already pointed out that you did well with it). You can try all these cute digs about me not having a surface level understanding of Kislev lore (which isn't actually true - again "I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with your premise", its because I'm well aware), but you weren't having a debate with me - you were having a very lengthy and repetitious debate with kodos, and he clearly isn't as familiar with the lore, so you need to do the work for him.
Don’t rumors still point to a reveal at some point this year that dives a little deeper into the rules governing the new Old World ruleset? Hopefully this is still on track, be nice to see what direction this project is going in besides fleshing out parts of the world that weren’t really explored before (which I do appreciate).
Imagine a starter box set with a Cathyan army versus Hobogoblin Khanate? Wow that would be sweet. The Cathyans are confirmed as an Old World army in that article but we all might be old or older when it is released.
kodos wrote: "big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best
No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.
Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.
Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.
Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.
What part of the last 40 years of warhammer made you think GW does subtlety? If something is called the ice palace, it's made out of fething ice yo. You call someone the ice queen? It's cause the was elsa before elsa was cool (or cold).
It seems a number of people in this thread struggle with reading comprehension. "Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details..." is a pretty important statement here. The point is that Mentlegen was premising his argument around what things were named rather than what they actually are. If he wanted to prove his point he should have provided details to support it, as he did with his examples about Bear worship
No, i was not "premising around what things were named rather than what they actually are", I gave a list of stuff already part of the lore that contained "Ice magic and bear theming". You then wrongly decided that's what I meant just because a few of those examples coincidentally happen to have Ice-themed names. I didn't "provide details" about each thing because it was a list simply to give examples of what as already there and it should have been fairly evident to someone with at least a surface-level understanding of KIslev lore that ,for example, the Ice Queen actually does have Ice Magic.
You would benefit from learning how to debate and studying episomology. Saying "I'm right because here is a list of items you may or may not be familiar with that proves it" won't get you anywhere. Saying "I'm right because here are detailed examples that corroborate and reinforce my point of view" will. You did the first one (Bear example notwithstanding, but you will note we aren't discussing the bears and that I already pointed out that you did well with it). You can try all these cute digs about me not having a surface level understanding of Kislev lore (which isn't actually true - again "I'm not necessarily saying I disagree with your premise", its because I'm well aware), but you weren't having a debate with me - you were having a very lengthy and repetitious debate with kodos, and he clearly isn't as familiar with the lore, so you need to do the work for him.
lord_blackfang wrote: tl;dr: "We have nothing to show for The Old World because we've been busy writing lore for Total War."
...the lore is for both of them though?
Yeah they have written the army book for Cathay which was then used for the new Total War game
For 8th Edition WHFB. Its important to keep that distinction in mind, lest someone assume they are further along in game dev than they seem to be.
Pointing out the mere existence of those things in Kislev lore was the point, it didn't require some some detailed analysis of each. If you did already have an understanding of Kislev lore then it should have been quite obvious to you how in the context of "Things with Ice Magic", they were examples of things with Ice Magic, yet you saw them mentioned and then.decided that the only reason I could have mentioned them was because of their names. If you knew the Ice Palace is made of Ice, the Ice Queen is an Ice Witch, or the Ice Witches are Ice Witches and all that involves involve Ice Magic, then it should have been pretty obvious to you why they were mentioned in that context regardless of if I'd given an explanation of their relevance.
nathan2004 wrote: Don’t rumors still point to a reveal at some point this year that dives a little deeper into the rules governing the new Old World ruleset? Hopefully this is still on track, be nice to see what direction this project is going in besides fleshing out parts of the world that weren’t really explored before (which I do appreciate).
If its the rumor I'm thinking of, no - the other rumors that came out in the same infodump have been shown to be false.
I'm really bummed we won't be seeing anything of Khuresh, Ind or Nippon any time soon. I guess they don't have that sweet Chinese consumer market money.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm really bummed we won't be seeing anything of Khuresh, Ind or Nippon any time soon. I guess they don't have that sweet Chinese consumer market money.
I think there's room for Ind and Nippon. The Nihonjin have plenty of consumer money and I doubt many in Cathay errrr... China care much about a Warhammer setting created by the West lol. There's been good interest in Cathay for a long time since it was mentioned in the back of the 3rd??? edition core rule book. The Lizardman battle tome even had a story about a shipwrecked Cathayan encountering the Lizardmen and that custom Cathyan army Dave Taylor created and featured in White Dwarf was awesome. Cathay was destroyed in the End of Times by an Orc/Ogre hoard I believe when the Great Bastion fell. The dragon nature of the leaders is pretty darned cool.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm really bummed we won't be seeing anything of Khuresh, Ind or Nippon any time soon. I guess they don't have that sweet Chinese consumer market money.
The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
Not many fantasy armies based on mythology from India that I am aware of?
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm really bummed we won't be seeing anything of Khuresh, Ind or Nippon any time soon. I guess they don't have that sweet Chinese consumer market money.
The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
Not many fantasy armies based on mythology from India that I am aware of?
Yeah, I've seen that. We do have Andy Hall on record saying that they aren't in any form in the plans. I think because GW wants to be in charge of developing the material which then gets passed to CA, the odds of those factions being developed are slim to none right now.
When the old world gets released, assuming it's successful, we will see all of the main factions developed first.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm really bummed we won't be seeing anything of Khuresh, Ind or Nippon any time soon. I guess they don't have that sweet Chinese consumer market money.
The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
Not many fantasy armies based on mythology from India that I am aware of?
Not many, no. A pity though because there's some stuff that would look great on the table top.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah I heard about that, why do the Chinese hate TWW3?
It's apparently because CA massively screwed the pooch on their advertising campaign, and basically just handed the advanced streaming copies to a bunch of randos who had zero interest in Warhammer and casually spoiled the entire plot.
At any rate, if they were going to expand eastward Cathay makes the most sense. Starting off with Nippon, Ind, etc before doing Cathay would be totally backwards. Cathay has always been the biggest and most influential of the eastern factions, it has nothing to do with Chinese consumers.
At any rate, if they were going to expand eastward Cathay makes the most sense. Starting off with Nippon, Ind, etc before doing Cathay would be totally backwards. Cathay has always been the biggest and most influential of the eastern factions, it has nothing to do with Chinese consumers.
Yeah, imagine the reverse situation; Cathay and the eastern half of the Old World has been the focus for thirty years, you’ve only recently introduced the Lizardmen from the eastern continent, and those pesky elves are limited to their raiders from the north and traders from the Citadel of the Dawn to the south.
So you decide to expand the setting west and while you put spots on the map for the ogres, you already know a bunch about them from their mercenary companies, so you go even further west and the human kingdoms there, like the fabled Sigmarite Empire you’ve been hinting at for almost as long as the setting has been around. So what do you do for the first army book in this new, unexplored land? The major economic and military power in the region, the one that mirrors the role of grand Cathay in defending against the North? No; Tilea and the border princes – that’s the ticket!
Mr Morden wrote: The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
"There's no plans to do them in the immediate or even long-term future. ... People are kinda desperately hanging on for one of these other nations. ... Don't lose any sleep, it's not happening anytime soon. Probably never, I'm afraid." - TWW3 Head Writer Andy Hall on the subject of Ind, Kuresh and Nippon.
Mr Morden wrote: The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
"There's no plans to do them in the immediate or even long-term future. ... People are kinda desperately hanging on for one of these other nations. ... Don't lose any sleep, it's not happening anytime soon. Probably never, I'm afraid." - TWW3 Head Writer Andy Hall on the subject of Ind, Kuresh and Nippon.
Yep. Sadly means we won't see the tiger headed beastmen in TW3 either.
nathan2004 wrote: Don’t rumors still point to a reveal at some point this year that dives a little deeper into the rules governing the new Old World ruleset? Hopefully this is still on track, be nice to see what direction this project is going in besides fleshing out parts of the world that weren’t really explored before (which I do appreciate).
If its the rumor I'm thinking of, no - the other rumors that came out in the same infodump have been shown to be false.
More that Cathay is definitely confirmed to be in the game.
Something which should have been obvious months ago except for vaguely worded statements that were interpreted differently.
That's my point exactly. None of the prior verbiage was vague. What we have here is instead people being content with crumbs, the drip feed is basically showing people happy with hydrocarbons. This is a new level of no real news. The fact they haven't shown a SINGLE miniature has me wondering if the whole thing isn't still a stunt to curb sales for other companies who picked up the slack from WFB leaving.
"The old world" turning out to be really interesting.
I was afraid it would be a cheap nostalgia throwback ending up in a horus heresy style game with exclusive plumes and shields for every Empire region.
Turns out they have some actual ambition with this.
Mr Morden wrote: The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
"There's no plans to do them in the immediate or even long-term future. ... People are kinda desperately hanging on for one of these other nations. ... Don't lose any sleep, it's not happening anytime soon. Probably never, I'm afraid." - TWW3 Head Writer Andy Hall on the subject of Ind, Kuresh and Nippon.
Yeah I watched the interview - hence my caution depsite the leaked map specifcally showing those areas -
nathan2004 wrote: Don’t rumors still point to a reveal at some point this year that dives a little deeper into the rules governing the new Old World ruleset? Hopefully this is still on track, be nice to see what direction this project is going in besides fleshing out parts of the world that weren’t really explored before (which I do appreciate).
If its the rumor I'm thinking of, no - the other rumors that came out in the same infodump have been shown to be false.
More that Cathay is definitely confirmed to be in the game.
Something which should have been obvious months ago except for vaguely worded statements that were interpreted differently.
That's my point exactly. None of the prior verbiage was vague. What we have here is instead people being content with crumbs, the drip feed is basically showing people happy with hydrocarbons. This is a new level of no real news. The fact they haven't shown a SINGLE miniature has me wondering if the whole thing isn't still a stunt to curb sales for other companies who picked up the slack from WFB leaving.
I find the whole thing a little odd so far. I get that it's a huge project that they said will take years and that's fine, but it's been close to 2 and a half years now and for some reason we've still seen nothing beyond map icons and vague lore for any of the classic armies....yet we've had all new Kislev and Cathay? Slowly giving us bits of the map doesn't help much either as we still don't know what the extent of this will be, before Cathay some were saying this was just going to be "The Old World" part of the map as that was what they'd focused on (even though the term is also used to refer to the setting as a whole), so things are still somewhat unclear as to what parts of the setting are actually going to feature despite the map being the main thing thing they've been teasing us with for 2 and a half years.
Iracundus wrote: Of course, didn't GW say that regarding Cathay many years and editions ago? Yet here we are.
I don't think GW ever said anything about Cathay aside from some allusions about potentially going further east when the Ogre Kingdoms book was released. That's why it was such a surprise to see them pop up fairly well developed in TWW3.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I find the whole thing a little odd so far. I get that it's a huge project that they said will take years and that's fine, but it's been close to 2 and a half years now and for some reason we've still seen nothing beyond map icons and vague lore for any of the classic armies....yet we've had all new Kislev and Cathay? Slowly giving us bits of the map doesn't help much either as we still don't know what the extent of this will be, before Cathay some were saying this was just going to be "The Old World" part of the map as that was what they'd focused on (even though the term is also used to refer to the setting as a whole), so things are still somewhat unclear as to what parts of the setting are actually going to feature despite the map being the main thing thing they've been teasing us with for 2 and a half years.
Strangely enough I don't find that odd at all. It's by no means the only way they could have gone about it and not what I would have predicted or preferred, but it's so much like GW for someone in the company to come up with the idea of announcing the project the minute it's greenlit in order to gain <insert expected benefit here> only for someone else to then proceed to treat the previews of it in much the same way as they do with any other release, stubbornly refusing to show certain things before they hit a certain time before release.
At this point I'm much more interested in how GW's Old World marketing develops than the actual game.
Iracundus wrote: Of course, didn't GW say that regarding Cathay many years and editions ago? Yet here we are.
I don't think GW ever said anything about Cathay aside from some allusions about potentially going further east when the Ogre Kingdoms book was released. That's why it was such a surprise to see them pop up fairly well developed in TWW3.
Yeah, this is the actual reason I got annoyed at them breaking the old world. They swapped a setting with not just established lore for one with none, and no apparent desire (at the time) to have any, but one with decades more potential exploration to do. Incredible potential being wasted is never something I can be OK with, so I’m happy to see them continuing with TWW3 and/or the Old World project. So I’d love to see them explore Araby, Ind, the fishmen etc. too…
Not really.
Yes, entire bear cav regiments does seem excessive, but then again most factions have some sort of exotic cav unit and bear cav were a thing for Kislev, just regulated to character mounts.
Mr Morden wrote: The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
Why would there be Nippon when adding it would require whole new complicated mechanic (navies) to benefit basically a single minor faction? Adding stuff that is actually connected by land to existing map is vastly easier and no-brainer really. Then you also have half-daemon beastmen army from the jungles of the south that would make much more interesting addition than Nippon, IMO.
Also, no one remembers genius Nippon WFB lore? With brilliant names like Toyota Atari Nissan Honda Sega Sanyo Mitsubishi? Either GW retcons all of that and basically rewrites the faction from scratch, or they will end up ridiculed everywhere for '10 year old wrote that' quality of it
Mr Morden wrote: The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
Why would there be Nippon when adding it would require whole new complicated mechanic (navies) to benefit basically a single minor faction? Adding stuff that is actually connected by land to existing map is vastly easier and no-brainer really. Then you also have half-daemon beastmen army from the jungles of the south that would make much more interesting addition than Nippon, IMO.
Also, no one remembers genius Nippon WFB lore? With brilliant names like Toyota Atari Nissan Honda Sega Sanyo Mitsubishi? Either GW retcons all of that and basically rewrites the faction from scratch, or they will end up ridiculed everywhere for '10 year old wrote that' quality of it
Creative has also said the same about Araby, so we won't be getting them either even though they are within the footprint of the existing map. Fleshing out kislev and cathay had to be s massive undertaking, i would guess that rhe dev time and cost on another 4 unseen factions would be well in excess of what CA and GW care to commit right now. Maybe if we're lucky GW extends the license and we get a TWW4 with more content down the line... though I think with TOW coming back to tabletop that might not be too likely.
nathan2004 wrote: Don’t rumors still point to a reveal at some point this year that dives a little deeper into the rules governing the new Old World ruleset? Hopefully this is still on track, be nice to see what direction this project is going in besides fleshing out parts of the world that weren’t really explored before (which I do appreciate).
If its the rumor I'm thinking of, no - the other rumors that came out in the same infodump have been shown to be false.
More that Cathay is definitely confirmed to be in the game.
Something which should have been obvious months ago except for vaguely worded statements that were interpreted differently.
That's my point exactly. None of the prior verbiage was vague. What we have here is instead people being content with crumbs, the drip feed is basically showing people happy with hydrocarbons. This is a new level of no real news. The fact they haven't shown a SINGLE miniature has me wondering if the whole thing isn't still a stunt to curb sales for other companies who picked up the slack from WFB leaving.
They were vague in the sense that they didn't explicitly say "Cathay is getting minis for The Old World"
Mr Morden wrote: The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
Why would there be Nippon when adding it would require whole new complicated mechanic (navies) to benefit basically a single minor faction? Adding stuff that is actually connected by land to existing map is vastly easier and no-brainer really. Then you also have half-daemon beastmen army from the jungles of the south that would make much more interesting addition than Nippon, IMO.
Also, no one remembers genius Nippon WFB lore? With brilliant names like Toyota Atari Nissan Honda Sega Sanyo Mitsubishi? Either GW retcons all of that and basically rewrites the faction from scratch, or they will end up ridiculed everywhere for '10 year old wrote that' quality of it
Mr Morden wrote: The map in the Total War Game files has Ind and Kuresh (but not Nippon) and has been confirmed as a prototype so that might mean those areas will see something eventually
Why would there be Nippon when adding it would require whole new complicated mechanic (navies) to benefit basically a single minor faction? Adding stuff that is actually connected by land to existing map is vastly easier and no-brainer really. Then you also have half-daemon beastmen army from the jungles of the south that would make much more interesting addition than Nippon, IMO.
Also, no one remembers genius Nippon WFB lore? With brilliant names like Toyota Atari Nissan Honda Sega Sanyo Mitsubishi? Either GW retcons all of that and basically rewrites the faction from scratch, or they will end up ridiculed everywhere for '10 year old wrote that' quality of it
Which is what I said - as Nippon is not on the map.
The limited WFB lore will likely be redone if needed and wanted - there are some newer bits in WFRP but rare
Irbis wrote: Also, no one remembers genius Nippon WFB lore? With brilliant names like Toyota Atari Nissan Honda Sega Sanyo Mitsubishi? Either GW retcons all of that and basically rewrites the faction from scratch, or they will end up ridiculed everywhere for '10 year old wrote that' quality of it
Nothing will ever match their ancient martial art of Vim-To.
JSG wrote: Those are unironically brilliant names though.
Not really. It's like calling Empire characters Adolf Mauser Tiger Messershmitt Dornier Stuka. Something that only a juvenile in 80s could call cool.
But it gets better. Nippon worships great gods Lancia Zero and Orange Simca. They have Vimto martial art and are also so bloodthirsty that if they aren't allowed to kill a peasant for ten minutes they commit ritual suicide by standing on their head in a bucket of piss. There is no salvaging any of this gak in anything even remotely close to serious product
Really having trouble seeing how this WHtOW enterprise will even be viable as a system. The
new stuff will release at a snails pace, even allowing for rules allowing people to play their existing collections held over, what’s to drive new interest? I shudder to think of the prices. But I suppose GW’s wish is to be a boutique product and a rich mans hobby. So if they can harpoon some whales I guess that will please them.
JSG wrote: Those are unironically brilliant names though.
Not really. It's like calling Empire characters Adolf Mauser Tiger Messershmitt Dornier Stuka. Something that only a juvenile in 80s could call cool.
But it gets better. Nippon worships great gods Lancia Zero and Orange Simca. They have Vimto martial art and are also so bloodthirsty that if they aren't allowed to kill a peasant for ten minutes they commit ritual suicide by standing on their head in a bucket of piss. There is no salvaging any of this gak in anything even remotely close to serious product
If true, that's pretty bad, even by 80s GW standards.
JSG wrote: Those are unironically brilliant names though.
Not really. It's like calling Empire characters Adolf Mauser Tiger Messershmitt Dornier Stuka. Something that only a juvenile in 80s could call cool.
But it gets better. Nippon worships great gods Lancia Zero and Orange Simca. They have Vimto martial art and are also so bloodthirsty that if they aren't allowed to kill a peasant for ten minutes they commit ritual suicide by standing on their head in a bucket of piss. There is no salvaging any of this gak in anything even remotely close to serious product
If true, that's pretty bad, even by 80s GW standards.
There wasn't a single character called all that, there was a character that involved a joke of naming things relating to him after Japanese manufacturers and such. A character named Sanyo Kawasaki, who had companions named Nissan, Honda Susuki, Fujimi, Nagajima and Atachi and used the magic sword Toyota. He lost assembled an army to siege the capital and lost, and then committed ritual suicide by "standing on his head in a bucket of cold water." So from what I can find the lore doesn't sound quite so bad as that post makes it out to be. They've already "salvaged it into a serious product" as their other lore about them seems less silly so if they did get featured in The Old World or somewhere else then it's not as if they'd have to re-invent the whole faction, it's not as if they were just a joke.
Also all the names are actual names of people as well as being companies including Messershmitt, Dornier - so yeah it is salvagable and you can also do what they did with Cathay and say some of the old lore is the foolish rumours that western barbarians knew - so Emperor Wu is just another name for the Celestial Dragon Emperor but scholars of the Empire thought he was a specific Emperor.
Mr Morden wrote: Also all the names are actual names of people as well as being companies including Messershmitt, Dornier - so yeah it is salvagable and you can also do what they did with Cathay and say some of the old lore is the foolish rumours that western barbarians knew - so Emperor Wu is just another name for the Celestial Dragon Emperor but scholars of the Empire thought he was a specific Emperor.
Yes, the problem wasn't the names individually, it was the idea of one person being named all of those things - but based on what others are saying that doesn't seem to be the case. The suicide in the bucket of piss thing was also pretty bad (but again seems to not be the case, though the actual story isn't entirely great either).
In any case, GW has made more than enough retcons across its product lines that erased past lore from history. They could very easily make Nippon a thing and just never use any of those names or mention ritual suicide in buckets of water, etc. and then its effectively a non-issue anyway. How relevant are Obi-wan Sherlock Closeau or Illiyan Nastase to modern 40k, for example? If GW don't mention those things then effectively they no longer exist, regardless of the tendency of fans and wikis to treat everything ever published as being canon material.
Mr Morden wrote: Also all the names are actual names of people as well as being companies including Messershmitt, Dornier - so yeah it is salvagable and you can also do what they did with Cathay and say some of the old lore is the foolish rumours that western barbarians knew - so Emperor Wu is just another name for the Celestial Dragon Emperor but scholars of the Empire thought he was a specific Emperor.
Yes, the problem wasn't the names individually, it was the idea of one person being named all of those things - but based on what others are saying that doesn't seem to be the case. The suicide in the bucket of piss thing was also pretty bad (but again seems to not be the case, though the actual story isn't entirely great either).
In any case, GW has made more than enough retcons across its product lines that erased past lore from history. They could very easily make Nippon a thing and just never use any of those names or mention ritual suicide in buckets of water, etc. and then its effectively a non-issue anyway. How relevant are Obi-wan Sherlock Closeau or Illiyan Nastase to modern 40k, for example? If GW don't mention those things then effectively they no longer exist, regardless of the tendency of fans and wikis to treat everything ever published as being canon material.
To be fair to us fans, lore nerds and Lex/Wiki editors - GW and their partners C7 and CA have been digging up and reusing really really old lore so Gods of Law, Life Elementals etc....Geneveive is now in Age of Sigmar - unless they do actually change specific things to the "new" version its still possible to suddenly emerge - they even referenced Pygymies in Lizardmen Army books upto and including 8th ed....
'We will see a preview for Warhammer The Old World at the beginningw of next Year, this one will be bigger than those we saw in the past and since the Game was the first Time announced in November 2019.
Models to be shown mid 2022
This preview will be a bit more precise about the Game.
The Ruleset for Warhammer the Old World will be 7th Edition to the core,
but with smaller influences from the 5th, 6th and 8th Editions. They
understood that the 8th was too big in the sense of Army building, even for
GW Games.
'
So, now that other parts of the large rumor leak was proven correct, such as Squats (today) and eldar and csm, this makes the Old World rumors more likely I suppose.
From the large 2021 leak, and not posted in this thread earlier that I can see:
"New Edition Timelines
They're also internal changes for Warhammer the Old World. The main Studio
is more involved in this project, which was the idea of the oldest Studio
Members.
Also the established release shedule for GW in the last years is mostly
obsolete thanks to Covid: They can't no longer bring new Editions every
three years.
via a solid source on Faeit 212 Parts 1 and 2
I got informations about those "Compendium" Books for Warhammer The Old
Word.
Those Compendiums will timeline-wise set in the old WHFB Timeline include Rules for all Units from 8th Edition Army Books before the End Times was released. Characters inclusive but no Nagash or Glottkin etcetera.
New Rulebook, Army Books and Expansions will then set in the new Timeline of Warhammer The Old World.
-this was our source in the comment sections from Part 1! So always a good place to look and join in on the conversations.
The Books will also include rules for all Characters and Units before The End Times was released and set in the old Timeline of WHFB.
"
'We will see a preview for Warhammer The Old World at the beginningw of next Year, this one will be bigger than those we saw in the past and since the Game was the first Time announced in November 2019.
I don't recall any sets of rumours that had The Old World stuff alongside Squats? That's a compilation of several different rumours.
'We will see a preview for Warhammer The Old World at the beginningw of next Year, this one will be bigger than those we saw in the past and since the Game was the first Time announced in November 2019.
I don't recall any sets of rumours that had The Old World stuff alongside Squats? That's a complication of several different rumours.
Blast. I see what you mean, and you are probably more than correct too. Different rumor sets were compiled together in a post at a rumor site is all.
Interesting. 7th Edition rules were great as it solved a few of the problem that were present in 6th edition. The only thing that hurt 7th edition was a bunch of ridiculously broken army books.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Interesting. 7th Edition rules were great as it solved a few of the problem that were present in 6th edition. The only thing that hurt 7th edition was a bunch of ridiculously broken army books.
Swarms crumbling like undead, battle standard bearer bonus on top of the standard Bearer bonus, fighting two combats in the same turn if you timed it right. I'd say it broke every bit as much as it fixed.
I think there's a couple more that I really dislike that they added as well, but I'm short on time right now.
7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.
Geifer wrote: 7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.
How much of that was core rules and how much army books?
Geifer wrote: 7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.
How much of that was core rules and how much army books?
The losing part is the army book, because Tomb Kings. The predictability is all in the core rules now, specifically a combination of limited maneuverability, set charge ranges and and inability to strike back if your first rank evaporates. A look at the enemy army and a bit of math is all it takes. 7th ed was not a good game. More of a math exercise, and pretty much as boring.
Voss wrote: So... 7th edition opinions aside, what are the odds this is pic related to a 'Brutal Deluxe' product and nothing at all with the Old World?
Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?
That photo is pretty bonkers, took me a moment to de-age each dude to White Dwarf times Didn't 1-2 of these guys break up with GW pretty definitively at some point?
Geifer wrote: 7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.
QFT. And towards the end of 8E I could predict the composition of most tournament armies based only on faction, as the meta had thoroughly congealed.
Alessio Cavatore is still the managing director of River Horse, who also list Andy Chambers as a games designer and author consultant (along with Rick Priestley and Matthew Ward).
Said company produced the MLP RPG. So, I am taking it to be the confirmation of a My Little Pony tabletop strategy game
Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?
GW do quite a bit of work in London, especially if it is convenient to those involved.
All of the Daemonhunter videos (Andy Serkis etc) were filmed in London; travel between the two can be surprisingly arduous at times, especially if you're not located near to Kings Cross/St Pancras... Also, last week the UK saw the worst rail strikes in decades. It may simply be a matter that these four live nearer to London than Nottingham and decided to convene there than travel north.
Geifer wrote: 7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.
How much of that was core rules and how much army books?
The losing part is the army book, because Tomb Kings. The predictability is all in the core rules now, specifically a combination of limited maneuverability, set charge ranges and and inability to strike back if your first rank evaporates. A look at the enemy army and a bit of math is all it takes. 7th ed was not a good game. More of a math exercise, and pretty much as boring.
Voss wrote: So... 7th edition opinions aside, what are the odds this is pic related to a 'Brutal Deluxe' product and nothing at all with the Old World?
Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?
This has nothing to do with The Old World.
Right, that's my point. Its got nothing to do with the news/rumor thread its in, and now for some reason people are invoking incels and being generally creepy.
Geifer wrote: 7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.
How much of that was core rules and how much army books?
The losing part is the army book, because Tomb Kings. The predictability is all in the core rules now, specifically a combination of limited maneuverability, set charge ranges and and inability to strike back if your first rank evaporates. A look at the enemy army and a bit of math is all it takes. 7th ed was not a good game. More of a math exercise, and pretty much as boring.
Voss wrote: So... 7th edition opinions aside, what are the odds this is pic related to a 'Brutal Deluxe' product and nothing at all with the Old World?
Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?
This has nothing to do with The Old World.
Wjy did they bring Ward back to work on stuff when they have their own employees? Not saying anything is conclusive but I won't dismiss the possibility out of hand.
I'm willing to bet that the same people who are naysaying this recent little post are the same people that were nay saying everything about scale, Square bases, setting, and everything else that was disproven...
Well in theory their other employees would be working on other existing game projects. Taking on a new major game might well mean GW has to hire more staff to fit it into the system.
They might also hire on temp staff or consultant staff or it might even just be more of a marketing move to have some of the classic staff working on it.
Geifer wrote: 7th ed was the edition in which I could accurately predict how, when and why I was going to lose before we even set up our armies. That's a game I really don't need back.
How much of that was core rules and how much army books?
The losing part is the army book, because Tomb Kings. The predictability is all in the core rules now, specifically a combination of limited maneuverability, set charge ranges and and inability to strike back if your first rank evaporates. A look at the enemy army and a bit of math is all it takes. 7th ed was not a good game. More of a math exercise, and pretty much as boring.
Voss wrote: So... 7th edition opinions aside, what are the odds this is pic related to a 'Brutal Deluxe' product and nothing at all with the Old World?
Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?
This has nothing to do with The Old World.
Wjy did they bring Ward back to work on stuff when they have their own employees? Not saying anything is conclusive but I won't dismiss the possibility out of hand.
I'm willing to bet that the same people who are naysaying this recent little post are the same people that were nay saying everything about scale, Square bases, setting, and everything else that was disproven...
So, what are you paying out for losing that bet? Because you can scroll back through this very thread for proof of my naysaying this and NOT naysaying scale, square bases or anything else.
Keep in mind that the OW project has been going on for years now (before it was announced), and has produced actual content that's been used in TW3. And they already announced working off the 7th edition rules. So these guys gathering now seems unrelated entirely. Let alone the other company name at the top of the post.
There wasn't really anyone "naysaying" scale. It was simply a discussion that came up that a reduced scale COULD be a cool thing and it COULD be used to overcome the fact WHFB died with a very bloated range. No one thought it WOULD happen, it was just a hypothetical discussion of (however unlikely) possibilities that somehow got twisted into "zomg!!1!!1!! PeoPLe tHiNk iT'S GoiNg tO Be 10mm ScaLe!!1!! ThOse PeOple aRe sO DuMb!1!!"
It reminds me of when I joined a flat earth forum back in the early 00's... no one actually believed the earth is flat it was just an entertaining thing to discuss and apparently some people missed the joke and took it seriously
Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?
GW do quite a bit of work in London, especially if it is convenient to those involved.
All of the Daemonhunter videos (Andy Serkis etc) were filmed in London; travel between the two can be surprisingly arduous at times, especially if you're not located near to Kings Cross/St Pancras... Also, last week the UK saw the worst rail strikes in decades. It may simply be a matter that these four live nearer to London than Nottingham and decided to convene there than travel north.
Does GW own an office in London? Renting a place for a day or two to shoot some videos is viable, but what about renting for a longer duration? And if they have an office there, is it better to ferry employees out to that place instead of inviting the consultants in?
What kind of work would the guys be expected to do for GW? If it's enough for them to stay around, one trip to Nottingham has to come cheaper than getting everything and everyone they need to London. If it's a short gig, would it result in more than a meaningless publicity stunt?
In short, the question is what GW hopes to gain and how they would justify the cost. I don't find inconvenient travel a satisfying answer to that.
Just Tony wrote: I'm willing to bet that the same people who are naysaying this recent little post are the same people that were nay saying everything about scale, Square bases, setting, and everything else that was disproven...
So, what are you paying out for losing that bet? Because you can scroll back through this very thread for proof of my naysaying this and NOT naysaying scale, square bases or anything else.
I'd advise against betting. It's a bad habit to get into and in my case I can say that you'll just lose.
But for the sake of argument, you're making a very tenuous point. GW announced The Old World with that name and a picture of a square base. Scale, setting as well as rank and file were implied by the announcement straight from the company that makes the game.
In that social media post you have a private person post a group photo of four game designers who happened to work for GW twenty years ago and have since left the company. GW is not the entire wargaming world and they could meet for any number of professional reasons. Working for GW is one of them to be sure, but without anything more than that post there is zero evidence of any connection to GW.
These two are not equivalent. You're comparing apples and oranges.
lord_blackfang is very straightforward about making an "I want to believe" post and never claims that it's more than that. There's nothing wrong with that. We can talk about how cool it might be all day to see good game designers on the job for a change, but there is no evidence whatsoever that this is related to The Old World. In my opinion we should therefore treat it with due doubt. You're free to call that naysaying if you like.
Why would they meet in London instead of Nottingham? Why would GW bring in potentially expensive consultants instead of relying on their own employees?
GW do quite a bit of work in London, especially if it is convenient to those involved.
All of the Daemonhunter videos (Andy Serkis etc) were filmed in London; travel between the two can be surprisingly arduous at times, especially if you're not located near to Kings Cross/St Pancras... Also, last week the UK saw the worst rail strikes in decades. It may simply be a matter that these four live nearer to London than Nottingham and decided to convene there than travel north.
Does GW own an office in London? Renting a place for a day or two to shoot some videos is viable, but what about renting for a longer duration? And if they have an office there, is it better to ferry employees out to that place instead of inviting the consultants in?
What kind of work would the guys be expected to do for GW? If it's enough for them to stay around, one trip to Nottingham has to come cheaper than getting everything and everyone they need to London. If it's a short gig, would it result in more than a meaningless publicity stunt?
In short, the question is what GW hopes to gain and how they would justify the cost. I don't find inconvenient travel a satisfying answer to that.
Not specific to your question but London is A) the central transport hub for the country despite many many attempts to make it not so, so it can literally be easier to get to central London than to one town over by rail and B) the town is very much set up to accommodate pop-up and short to medium term “instant” offices where all you have to do is show up and not damage the rented gear too badly, including photo studios and the like. If you want four or five people to have an office for six months for a project? Easy. It’s not like game developers need heavy industrial equipment to work their magic.
lord_blackfang wrote: I have nothing besides speculation and wishful thinking, but someone paid to put these 4 in a room together
(Tuomas confirmed it's work related and a secret project)
I'm going to point out that all 4 have left GW (though Gav continues to write for them as a freelancer) and have successful game design/writing careers outside of it, and in at least one case theres some bad blood involved that makes them unlikely to work on something GW related.
Voss wrote: So... 7th edition opinions aside, what are the odds this is pic related to a 'Brutal Deluxe' product and nothing at all with the Old World?
Dunno what Brutal Deluxe is, but the odds of it being something other than The Old World are much higher than the odds of it being related to the Old World.
In all seriousness the line up seems a little too convenient to be coincidence.
How? They are all still active game designers and they are all people who worked together for years and have continued to collaborate and communicate since leaving GW. Theres nothing "too convenient" about this. In Alessios case he literally owns his own design studio and publishing house, and he and Andy have collaborated on a *lot* of design projects together already.
Alessio and Tuomas are pretty active on mordheims facebook site. Tuomas even released semi new material in 2021 for it, an experimental warband among them.
Now that would have made me very happy indeed! Going from Tuomas' thoughts expressed on the matter though (Mordheim was a culmination of particularly favourable circumstances and liberties afforded by GW at the time, it is a self-contained, finished thing, ...), a new game, perhaps with some recognisable DNA, would seem more likely, especially if it was not GW that rounded them up.
So i have new information regarding the Old World for anyone interested.
I heard about this from a Mantic employee that was previously working in GW (both UK companies) I don't know the guy that well so take it with a grain of salt.
Apparently the main reason GW is bringing back Fantasy is to hurt Kings of War and Conquest. Their thinking is "if it hurts their sales good if it doesn't oh well we made a few extra quid".
That makes sense with regards to the timing of their announcement, but we've heard next to nothing about it this year so that doesn't add up. If it's dropping in Summer of 2024 (based on GW's release schedule with new AOS dropping in Summer 2025 and 10th 40k in Summer 2023), hopefully we hear more about actual rules development next year sometime.
Rihgu wrote: That would sound a lot more true if they were actively/transparently developing it.
It sounds like a ghost story KoW and Conquest players tell each other around the campfire.
That "rumour" has been mentioned since the initial reveal, even.
As if they were so scared of another comparatively less popular game that they rushed into announcing and making a big project of a new rank-and-file game, including for some reason returning to and updating a completely different setting to AoS alongside it, with the primarily goal of it being to spite that other game....with a project releasing years later.
Rather than noticing that The Old World has plenty of popularity still because of it being a beloved setting and video games have done a lot to get people interested in, that can appeal to a different gaming niche, and maybe they realized destroying the setting was maybe a bit of a mistake considering that.
Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.
KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.
Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.
KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.
Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?
Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.
KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.
Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?
Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.
KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.
Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?
Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.
KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.
Have you forgot about the full redesign/expansion of both Kislev and Cathay, then?
Done for the video game.
They're part of the Old World tabletop as well.
Yep and we can assume anything (esp anything new) in TW Warhammer is up for potential use as a base for models in the upcoming game. However there's a big difference between concept art and 3D digital models and actual designs for plastic casting and actual models for the tabletop. So in general whlist it gives us a good idea of the style of model and artwork GW are going for, it won't really give us an idea of what kind of models they are making until we see actual models or at least 3D renders of the models being used as a base for the mould design.
Not even that makes sense. KoW 3 was announced in July, Old World was announced mid November.
KoW came out in October and GW randomly teased a non-existing game practically on the same week, 3+ years in advance with nothing but a logo to show for it at the time, and basically nothing to show for it since.
This myth really needs to die. The Old World was announced about 4 weeks after KoW was on shelves.
A vaporware product isn't hurting Kings of War or Conquest in any capacity, the complete absence of any real visibility into the game for what, the past 6 months, has done nothing to harm any theoretical competitor, nor has the dim flickers of activity we have been shown over the preceding 2 years or so. The Total War tie-ins haven't done much to move that needle either.
GW has been pretty clear the re/design was done for both TWW and TOW, they even stated that they made a mock army book for Cathay. TBH Blackfang dismisses evidence to peddle negative rumors with some frequency anyways so I wouldn't give much substance to it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: GW has been pretty clear the re/design was done for both TWW and TOW, they even stated that they made a mock army book for Cathay. TBH Blackfang dismisses evidence to peddle negative rumors with some frequency anyways so I wouldn't give much substance to it.
Yet fact is there's no active sign of two so idea of it being made to hurt kow is laughably stupid. Okay gw isn't smartest bunch but if anything two has only helped kow so far.
Maybe two comes, maybe doesn't. Wouldn't be first cancelled project from gw. Either way long way ahead. Kow ain't bothered one bit by tow,
nathan2004 wrote: That makes sense with regards to the timing of their announcement, but we've heard next to nothing about it this year so that doesn't add up. If it's dropping in Summer of 2024 (based on GW's release schedule with new AOS dropping in Summer 2025 and 10th 40k in Summer 2023), hopefully we hear more about actual rules development next year sometime.
10th ed 40k is in '23, 4th ed AoS in '24 in the likely event that GW sticks to their three year edition lifespans. If we assumed Old World to take up the summer release slot of a new game edition in the same vein as Horus Heresy, we'd be looking at a '25 release.
Just Tony wrote: Damn it, can we just not bump this thread unless there's some substantive rumor? Hope is giving me an ulcer at this point...
At the risk of sounding unduly negative, we'd all be better off pretending The Old World doesn't exist for the time being. GW's two and a half teases per year aren't helping anything, and neither is waiting for the next time they remember they were trying to tease a new game.
Conquest and Kings of War are not even on most gamers radar
This sounds like something someone would say to make people think their game is more important than it is
More and more companies that people call 'irrelevant' (AKA any which aren't GW) have been making 'Space Dwarves' in recent years, so the Votann probably aren't a coincidence either. I don't think it's a stretch to assume if GW want a whole pie to themselves and they see other people taking a slice here and there, they're going to try and get the full pie - even though they have most of it alreadu.
You have to admit it's very out of character for GW to announce a project like TOW so far in advance without a good reason.
Shakalooloo wrote: To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?
"Strike whilst the iron is frozen" is GW's modus operandi when it comes to brand integration.
This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB
AllSeeingSkink wrote: This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB
Yeah, their idea of "re-adjusting" is to do the exact opposite of what they did last time.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB
I think that is underselling it, to be honest. Total War Warhammer was the game that people wanted and had been wishlisting for years. It was the perfect combination of developer, mechanics and IP.
Missing out on utilising that was probably on a similar level to if GW hadn't released any miniatures for Lord of the Rings until after all of the films had been released.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: This is the same company that thought it'd be a great idea to kill WHFB just before a video game from a popular developer and publisher was released for WHFB that would build hype for WHFB
I think that is underselling it, to be honest. Total War Warhammer was the game that people wanted and had been wishlisting for years. It was the perfect combination of developer, mechanics and IP.
Missing out on utilising that was probably on a similar level to if GW hadn't released any miniatures for Lord of the Rings until after all of the films had been released.
Actually its even worse.
GW - at that time- was the company that had ignored Old World for years and then decided the best thing to do would be to run a huge global campaign of marketing and in-game lore events coupled to new models and a fresh starter set and everything. All in a massive run up to a summer removal of the entire Game and lore; stripping of the formal rules; removal of rank and file; removal of several armies (at least one of which had only semi recently had a very big model line update) and a bunch of other things. Oh and Zero marketing for AoS until pretty much launch day.
That there was a major concurrent video game for Fantasy Battles being released alongside is just a little frosting on the top of the cake of mistakes GW made at that time. A 3rd party side project isn't even a major marketing blip when GW made huge blunders all internally.
GW launching AoS and closing WFB as they did is possibly the text book "how to shoot yourself in both feet" style of marketing and product development. Granted it did result in the biggest kick for GW's management in decades and has basically resulted in a what I'd consider a second Golden Age for the firm and models - considering that we've now got multiple specialist game lines back on the market; an online marketing system that's running every day of the year; more outreach for youngens to get fresh blood in and more.
In retrospect it was both the worst thing GW have ever done and the best.
I still find it kind of shocking how readily people jump to any conclusion but 'classic GW incompetence' as the first explanation for anything. I think it ties into people wanting to villainize the company--it is easier to justify hate if the company is actively doing bad things rather than just being bad at doing things.
Shakalooloo wrote: To piggy-back publicity from the recently-released video game that will be considerably less relevant by the time their own game releases years later?
"Strike whilst the iron is frozen" is GW's modus operandi when it comes to brand integration.
You say that now but wait till you see all the cool Rambo and Platoon references in the next IG codex! GW truly has their fingers on the pulse of the 80s!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm going to fix the title since the Cathay trailer is while ago now.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I still find it kind of shocking how readily people jump to any conclusion but 'classic GW incompetence' as the first explanation for anything. I think it ties into people wanting to villainize the company--it is easier to justify hate if the company is actively doing bad things rather than just being bad at doing things.
GW's incompetence feels like it rises to the level of wilful incompetence. Like someone with their fingers in their ears screaming "LALALALA SORRY I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Or I'm sure we've all come across someone who just refuses to learn or put in the effort and says things like "oh, hehe, I guess I'm just a bit stupid/clumsy/unskilled/etc" and you want to scream into their ear "YEAH, BECAUSE YOU AREN'T F@$%ING TRYING".
Or maybe that's just me
Granted I'm sure GW aren't actively trying to do badly, but there's been times where it seems like the internal echo chamber must have reached absurd levels.
It has a some rather... um... creative statements. A couple of notable 'highlights'
We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche
In the technological world we occupy there is constant debate over who 'innovates' and who merely copies. We have, this last year,
spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images. It is a very difficult thing to do when it is
done through a legal system designed to prevent people stealing hogs from one another. Our experience has probably been typical of
most – far too much money spent on far too little gain. The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit, lose everything that
we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be
swept from the sky. But is it true?
Because no one seems able to grasp the essential simplicity of what we do there has always been the search for the Achilles heel, the
one thing that Kirby and his cronies have overlooked. These are legion. I run through the list from time to time when someone says that
computer games will be the death of us – they are so much more realistic now! – again. This year it is 3-D printing. Pretty soon
everyone will be printing their own miniatures and where will we be then, eh?
Automatically Appended Next Post: All I know is I'm changing my title to "Otiose in a niche"
One thing with GW is they basically sell crack, so even when they make massive blunders from the perspective or marketing and perception, if they release a product people like they'll still do well.
I think this is basically what happened with WHFB and AoS, it was a terrible horrible stupid move... but people liked the new stuff coming out for AoS so it was still a net move forwards. GW didn't do well BECAUSE they killed WHFB and replaced it with AoS, they did well IN SPITE of it.
Doesn't excuse comments like "otiose in a niche", but GW have a tendency to fall uphill, at least since the LotR bubble bursting.
Warhammer the Old World is simply nostalgia porn. It's a very common trend everywhere, be it in games or movies.
Believe it or not, a lot of GW developers do have a genuine attachment / fondness to the Old World. A lot of them grew up in its shadow, after all - that's not something you can simply ignore in the blink of an eye. Besides, the best way to remake a new game from the old is when the old game isn't around anymore.
As for the early announcements, I believe it's a question of feeding Warhammer Community's site with articles - and certainly not a question of reacting to so-called "GW competition". The "rumor" generating this new wave of comments is indeed a ghost story from Conquest / KoW players who'd rather think their game is that important to be considered a threat to main villain GW. Having a common enemy and "existential threat" is the base for consolidating a community together and raise their morale when the reality looks like their game isn't really attracting that many new players they would like to / doesn't have a lot of news for their game.
Better to simply dismiss that and look at things as they are (nothing in this case).
funny thing, never heard/read anything about a relation between KoW and TOW teaser in the KoW community/channels and they still ignore it (better said, still don't care)
don't know were it was first, but the most of it are from former WHFB players who are still salty (like here in Dakka or the T9A forum)
I still think TOW announcement was somewhat prompted by KoW. I doubt KoW is what caused them to work on TOW, but the timing is too convenient for me to think there wasn't some influence in choosing to make the announcement.
The KoW 3rd edition rulebook released on the 24th Oct, but in practice I don't think it was widely available at that date, and reviews were coming out through Oct, Nov and through to early the next year.
ToW was announced on the 15th Nov, so about 3 weeks after KoW 3rd edition rulebook's release date.
At the time there was still a lot of talk of which edition old WHFB should play and Mantic releasing a physical rulebook was one thing that was swaying people in the direction of KoW.
Coincidence? Perhaps, but to me it looks like there was some influence in choosing that time to make the announcement for ToW.
You can go into places discussing TOW like Facebook and it's full of people saying how they can't wait to play Fantasy again and how they wish they could play sooner. When people point out there's nothing stopping them playing old editions, or games like Kings of War in the mean time they're usually laughed away.
I've seen plenty of people in the Conquest and KoW communities now say they won't spend a penny more on those games (or start them) because they're waiting for Games Workshop like good, loyal cultists. GW may be foolish in many ways, but they absolutely recognise the religious reverence a lot of people have for their brand and that announcing Malibu Stacy would be getting a new hat would hurt the competition. Considering how often "they're a business, they exist to make money!" gets flung around as an excuse for GW's actions around here, I don't know why people suddenly think GW wouldn't want to hurt other wargaming companies when all it takes is an intern writing up a website article.
kodos wrote: the teaser for TOW happened between the 3rd Edition Core book and Uncharted Empires book, so a surprisingly well timed one
and I doubt that GW had started on anything by that time at all but helping with TWW
Yeah, you're rekindling my memory. The KoW rulebook had just released at the end of Oct but the roll out was slow and many people weren't getting it until Nov, and the Uncharted Empires book was about to come out in Dec, which provided the rules to effectively play WHFB armies in KoW, and GW chose November to announce ToW.
kodos wrote: the teaser for TOW happened between the 3rd Edition Core book and Uncharted Empires book, so a surprisingly well timed one
and I doubt that GW had started on anything by that time at all but helping with TWW
Yeah, you're rekindling my memory. The KoW rulebook had just released at the end of Oct but the roll out was slow and many people weren't getting it until Nov, and the Uncharted Empires book was about to come out in Dec, which provided the rules to effectively play WHFB armies in KoW, and GW chose November to announce ToW.
Very convenient timing.
IIRC Kings of War trolled right back with ads saying thier game is available right now, not in 5 years.
But yeah, while I doubt KoW factored into GW's decision making on reviving the Olde Worlde (it never should have died!) I can totally see KoW influencing the timing of their announcement. Don't forget Mantic has a lot of Ex-GW folks and some cross town teasing is to be expected.
I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.
I am pretty sure they do, legend says the rules for Kings of War were invented because people from Mantic (Ronni himself) and from GW (Cavatore) came into talk after a few drinks and one complaining to the other that he could write a better game if the management would allow it
But Mantic is trolling GW all the time, sometimes for the better, sometimes not
There was also an add on Mantic doing a discount on "full range" of Space Dwarfs on release weekend of Votann limited edition box
or having the Giant on sale in a 4 model discount deal when Mega Gargants released
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.
GW staff aren't paid enough to be able to afford drinks.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.
GW staff aren't paid enough to be able to afford drinks.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.
Why would they? They're all friends. Though the drinking part is probably right, as GW/Mantic/Warlord/etc - all the Nottingham companies - hang out and play games. The internet has perpetuated this myth that these companies all hate each other; then the next day there's pics of Alessio Cavatore, Jervis Johnson, John Stallard, Rick Priestley all playing a game hosted at the Perry's house.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.
GW staff aren't paid enough to be able to afford drinks.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I believe Mantic's HQ is located about 15 minutes drive from Warhammer World, and Warlord Games HQ is only a few minutes walk away, I'm surprised they don't TP each other's buildings after a few too many drinks.
Why would they? They're all friends. Though the drinking part is probably right, as GW/Mantic/Warlord/etc - all the Nottingham companies - hang out and play games. The internet has perpetuated this myth that these companies all hate each other; then the next day there's pics of Alessio Cavatore, Jervis Johnson, John Stallard, Rick Priestley all playing a game hosted at the Perry's house.
What I said was mostly a joke, though "TPing" a place is a pretty tame act, it's not like I said "burned down" or something like that, lol, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some rivalry between the companies.
That said, if you watch interviews with a lot of the old guys who have now left GW, some of them definitely feel like they may hold some ill feelings towards GW, so I'm not entirely sure it's all "internet myth". That's not a commentary on individual relationships though, you can dislike a company while still getting along with certain people that make up that company.
