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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.

This is a reductive look at the complaints.

To quote myself:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".

Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.

There are other types of Kislev units (some sort of deer/stag unit whose name escapes me), and their characters should be able to ride hordes as well as bears. But outside of one unit, everything else is bears.

Now I personally believe that it's because they're holding that stuff back from DLC, but even if that is the case, it creates a lopsided roster that suddenly has bears everywhere without expanding cavalry anywhere else.

Are we sure they’re bears and not ursinaerers or something?

Baers. They are Baers. Or Bairs.

Edit: Bayrs.

Beaeaeaears, set to fight the Aeaeaeaeaelves...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.

This is a reductive look at the complaints.

To quote myself:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".

Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.

There are other types of Kislev units (some sort of deer/stag unit whose name escapes me), and their characters should be able to ride hordes as well as bears. But outside of one unit, everything else is bears.

Now I personally believe that it's because they're holding that stuff back from DLC, but even if that is the case, it creates a lopsided roster that suddenly has bears everywhere without expanding cavalry anywhere else.

I just checked the Total War Kislev roster. There are four horse mounted cavalry units and one bear mounted one. Kossovite Dervishes, Winged Lancers, Gryphon Legion and Horse Archers, and then Bear Cavalry. The Sleds and Artillery are pulled by bears, and the characters can ride both. Seems pretty balanced to me.

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-kislev-roster-reveal/

I forgot about the Warhorses on characters. For some reason I had it in my head that it was bears or nothing.

My bad.

Love how they actually put "Not riding bears" as a "Notable characteristic" bullet point of the Gryphon Legion (although I'm now confused why they aren't riding ... gryphons, but I guess this might be Kislev fluff from when gryphon riders weren't a generic Empire thing yet)

 ImAGeek wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.

This is a reductive look at the complaints.

To quote myself:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the point people are making about Flanderisation is that in the TWW3 roster reveal for Kislev, suddenly everything was "Bears! Bears! Bears!".

Outside of the Winged Lancers (that's what they're called, right?), everything was mounted on a bear. Every character can get a bear mount (and nothing else). There are two types of bear cavalry. Their canons are pulled by bears. Their two chariot types are pulled by bears. They can summon a super-duper ice bear.

There are other types of Kislev units (some sort of deer/stag unit whose name escapes me), and their characters should be able to ride hordes as well as bears. But outside of one unit, everything else is bears.

Now I personally believe that it's because they're holding that stuff back from DLC, but even if that is the case, it creates a lopsided roster that suddenly has bears everywhere without expanding cavalry anywhere else.

I just checked the Total War Kislev roster. There are four horse mounted cavalry units and one bear mounted one. Kossovite Dervishes, Winged Lancers, Gryphon Legion and Horse Archers, and then Bear Cavalry. The Sleds and Artillery are pulled by bears, and the characters can ride both. Seems pretty balanced to me.

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-warhammer-3-kislev-roster-reveal/

Yep its a unit of bear cavalry, a bear sled unit (split as 3 different unit options but all in essence the same thing), and bears as special mounts. And I suppose the Elemental bear.

I really don't see any flanderization there. I do think that the basic sled at least should have used normal houses instead to make the other variants a bit more special, but bears being high-end mounts and powerful beasts of burden isn't some outlandish change for Kislev that makes them all all about bears all the time. The Spirit of the land of Kislev was said to be a bear, so that Elemental bear makes sense too.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds

but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire

expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best

No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.

Independently of kodos, I was thinking how this would be akin to how the Empire relaunch would see Runefangs redesigned as hammers, with Greatswords, Flagellants, and Witch Hunters now also wielding large hammers instead of swords, and the Steam Tank's impact hits were now caused by a large pneumatic hammer. Plus the Helstorm Rocket Battery's rockets were flying exploding hammers or something.
Hammers have always been iconic within the Empire setting, but most of the time only as icons, a design motif, rather than being practically used. This gave a unifying theme (in addition to their broad early Renaissance Holy Roman Empire style), while making the actual hammer-wielders like Karl Franz and the Warrior Priests feel special. This is almost exactly how I feel about past Kislev versus new Kislev. Even with the above, the vast majority of the Empire's units would be as hammerless as they are now, but that doesn't take away the fact that the formerly mild hammer-theme would have been significantly expanded to the point of overuse.

I don't think that's an apt comparison at all. The Empire doesn't have hammers integrated as part of their overall culture and theming whereas Kislev does have bears and Ice Magic heavily ingrained into their daily lives and featured throughout their society, not just as the occasional design motif that pops up. Your Empire example would be flanderization of how the Empire is depicted in the setting at the moment, yes, but if the Empire's lore already had them with Hammer priests who follow a religion that worships hammers with a god of Hammers who takes the form of a holy hammer and Hammers were considered an important part of their lives and rituals and part of the Empire's overall culture and hammers were just seen as a sacred thing overall that they make use of lots but for some reason that was only in their lore and not their model range? That would be a different matter.

The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.

"meant to be" based on what? We're both basing our views on a subset of previously published material, just different subsets.
My views on Kislev's military are based on the Warmaster army list, and the most comprehensive combination of Kislev lore and WHFB rules ever published, in Citadel Journals 14-16. Yes, there are bears. But the War Wagon was pulled by horses, as was the Tzarina's sled, and even the so-called "Brotherhood of the Bear" were rangers ridings horses. Because riding a bear is much more interesting when it's rare. It was quite consistently depicted as being related to religious orders or special events related to their bear god. Not something used by every character who wants one, several units and even as a beast of burden.
Hence my previous comparison to hammers in the Empire. Depicted everywhere, used rarely. Despite the fact that there are fewer arguments against using a hammer than riding around on a bear, or using one to pull your vehicle.

I just long for the days when Archaon was considered imposing even when riding around on what was essentially a big angry horse. If everything is special, nothing is special.

I can understand when this happens with magical stuff like demygryphs.

But bears? Like. They are normal animals. Why us humans use horses and not bears is from a design standpoint completely arbitrary to a fantasy setting, theres nothing more common about horses than bears. Or mundane.

Is not different than orks riding boars or goblins riding wolves. And as has been noted in the kislevite roster is something for elite cavalry units, for pulling out heavy waggons or heavy artillery thats also ultra rare.

Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.

Wolves or boars couldn't bear a human

Indeed these boars are special magical fantasy boars that they can carry along a much bigger orc for a battle without collapsing.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.

Wolves aren't ridden. They carry a willing snack on their back.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Apparently in the Viking era Bears became quite common as pets - but they didn't ride them - has anyone ever tried to do it in the real world (and survived?) but yeah wolves and boars are not keen on being ridden either.

One man did even, if the picture is bit political.



Sorry, I had to slam this ball down.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
So, who thinks the aestethics of TOO will be swirling hair and tentacles everywhere? Or will it be more realistic and mundane?

Judging by the Ice Guard with Bear Claws riding Bears for the Ice Queen flanderisation, it's going to be the former.

That isn't flanderization when bears and ice magic were something that was already a big part of their theming.

Literal bear rider model made by GW to boot...

Like "mary sue" the term gets thrown around so much the actual meaning is diluted :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
I can understand when this happens with magical stuff like demygryphs.

But bears? Like. They are normal animals. Why us humans use horses and not bears is from a design standpoint completely arbitrary to a fantasy setting, theres nothing more common about horses than bears. Or mundane.

Is not different than orks riding boars or goblins riding wolves. And as has been noted in the kislevite roster is something for elite cavalry units, for pulling out heavy waggons or heavy artillery thats also ultra rare.

They aren't the same species of non-magical creatures. Different species have different behaviors, to say nothing of how non-human races may go about domesticating them.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds

but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire

expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best

No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.

Independently of kodos, I was thinking how this would be akin to how the Empire relaunch would see Runefangs redesigned as hammers, with Greatswords, Flagellants, and Witch Hunters now also wielding large hammers instead of swords, and the Steam Tank's impact hits were now caused by a large pneumatic hammer. Plus the Helstorm Rocket Battery's rockets were flying exploding hammers or something.
Hammers have always been iconic within the Empire setting, but most of the time only as icons, a design motif, rather than being practically used. This gave a unifying theme (in addition to their broad early Renaissance Holy Roman Empire style), while making the actual hammer-wielders like Karl Franz and the Warrior Priests feel special. This is almost exactly how I feel about past Kislev versus new Kislev. Even with the above, the vast majority of the Empire's units would be as hammerless as they are now, but that doesn't take away the fact that the formerly mild hammer-theme would have been significantly expanded to the point of overuse.

I don't think that's an apt comparison at all. The Empire doesn't have hammers integrated as part of their overall culture and theming whereas Kislev does have bears and Ice Magic heavily ingrained into their daily lives and featured throughout their society, not just as the occasional design motif that pops up. Your Empire example would be flanderization of how the Empire is depicted in the setting at the moment, yes, but if the Empire's lore already had them with Hammer priests who follow a religion that worships hammers with a god of Hammers who takes the form of a holy hammer and Hammers were considered an important part of their lives and rituals and part of the Empire's overall culture and hammers were just seen as a sacred thing overall that they make use of lots but for some reason that was only in their lore and not their model range? That would be a different matter.

The flanderization complaints seem to come from people only having seen the limited Kislev model range and how there were only a few bears and such there - but that was not overly representative of what Kislev had in their lore. What we have now is Kislev being represented as being more in line with Lore KIslev rather than being some drastic change of "lets make them all about bears and Ice now" - that's how they already were meant to be.

"meant to be" based on what? We're both basing our views on a subset of previously published material, just different subsets.
My views on Kislev's military are based on the Warmaster army list, and the most comprehensive combination of Kislev lore and WHFB rules ever published, in Citadel Journals 14-16. Yes, there are bears. But the War Wagon was pulled by horses, as was the Tzarina's sled, and even the so-called "Brotherhood of the Bear" were rangers ridings horses. Because riding a bear is much more interesting when it's rare. It was quite consistently depicted as being related to religious orders or special events related to their bear god. Not something used by every character who wants one, several units and even as a beast of burden.
Hence my previous comparison to hammers in the Empire. Depicted everywhere, used rarely. Despite the fact that there are fewer arguments against using a hammer than riding around on a bear, or using one to pull your vehicle.

I just long for the days when Archaon was considered imposing even when riding around on what was essentially a big angry horse. If everything is special, nothing is special.

Look at Citadel Journal 15 again, because there's bears in contexts that aren't some religious or special circumstances. Every hero unit there who wants a bear can get one as they can take a monster mount, one of which the options is a great bear. There's also the Beast Tamer unit that's a pretty normal thing and unit even mentions they've taken into battle for a long time. And while the "Sons of Ursa" unit that has bear mounts is a religious order based at a temple to the great spirit bear, their use of war bear mounts isn't hinted as being something exclusive to them at all (The description merely says they spend time learning the art of war at the temple)- the worship of bears extends to the rest of Kislev too, as mentioned in the War Bear unit for TW:W3. The TW:W3 unit may even end up being the Sons of Ursa as the roster page for them isn't fully detailed.

I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.

Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.

Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.

Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.

Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.

 triplegrim wrote:
Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

Prior to the latest round of how many bears Kislev should have, there was a post with a "rumor" from Faeit* that said GW plans to post an update of some substance in the new year. Something to that effect.

Not sure I'd call that "supposed to come".


' Or BoLS or whatever, not like it matters

Look guys, we all know what this is really about. GW dropped the ball and rather than admitting their mistake they are resorting to half measures.

There were never enough bears in the Kislev army.

From their original onset they should have had units of bear cavalry. And Winged Hussar bear cavalry. And units of war bears. And werebears. And aspiring werebears. And a dual kit for lightly armoured aspiring/werebear bear riders. Werebear shamans of the bear, giant ice bears ridden by said werebears. Artillery pulled by bears, melee oriented beariots, beariot mount option for characters. Spell which turns enemy units into war bears. Manifest bear spirits. Ice bear variants for all of the above as an upgrade option. Bear diver artillery that fire bears with wings strapped onto them into the enemy.

The unfortunate reality is that we're never going to get what SHOULD have been, and we will have to make peace with that.

 triplegrim wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.

Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.

Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.

It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2004 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.

The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.

Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.

Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.

Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.

It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2004 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.

The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.

Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.

Don't use actual facts about what the fluff of the faction was from its inception. It cannot fight agaisnt the mental image people made on their own head for more than 10+ years about what a faction should be.

 Galas wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.

Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.

Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.

It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2004 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.

The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.

Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.

Don't use actual facts about what the fluff of the faction was from its inception. It cannot fight agaisnt the mental image people made on their own head for more than 10+ years about what a faction should be.

 Galas wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.

Wasnt there some release or news supposed to come in january about TOO? Like last year.

They've had bears as cavalry, alongside far more fantastical elements like Baby Yaga + Her chicken-legged hug since at least 1996.

Are we talking about warmaster here? If so, I have to say that its not relevant to my whfb experience. Ypu could match whfb up with 40k at some point too from what I hear without that being relevant either for examole.

It's part of the Citadel Journal army roster that Kislev had. They've had bear cavalry, an entire unit of tamed bears as a common thing (alongside text saying they pretty much always take bears into battle and have done for a long time), heroes (Generals, Battle Standard etc) able to ride giant bears, Baba Yaga + Her chicken legged magic hut, things like the Ice queen, bears being sacred and Kislev having a god of bears since 1996 or so (Citadel Journal 14/15/16). The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear and their God of Bears taking the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears, Frostfiends, Firebirds, Hag Witches and Nature Spirits since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2007. Some aspects of that might have some of that may also have been there much earlier than 2007 though, as even back in 1996 bears were sacred to Kislev, there was the "Great Spirit Bear" of Kislev which was worshiped, the "Sons of Ursa" unit of Bear Cavalry was said "No other regiment .... Typifies them more" and that they "a symbol of Kislev itself" etc.

The point is that there isn't really an "Old Kislev" that was they were just a relatively mundane human faction that just liked bears and "new Kislev" where suddenly they've been flanderized so there's now bear cavalry and battle bears and Ice magic everywhere and all that fantastical stuff shown has changed them. GW decided they had things along those lines since very early on. Whether it's something you noticed or not doesn't change that they've had these fantastical elements incorporated into them for a long time and that's just how they are.

Sure, things were added and updated as usual for Warhammer stuff, but bears and the mystical/magical side of them has been part of Kislevs identity - at least in the Lore - for over 20 years.

Don't use actual facts about what the fluff of the faction was from its inception. It cannot fight agaisnt the mental image people made on their own head for more than 10+ years about what a faction should be.

Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I think one or two bears are fine for a human army based around elite cavalry, ice magic and inantry with a werid axe bowman gimmick. Pretty much cossacs and polish lithuania commonwealth. Bears as monstrous cavalry just stretches my immersion the same way that steam driven mechanical horde for empire did.


The lore for the Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches (back in 1996 they also had Ice Mages at that time, although the Ice Witches were said to be the stronger of the two) able to use Ice magic weapons,

Yes, but they have been killing all male mages since at least 2009, havent they? So which is it? Is something cannon if it existed in the 90s but havent been seen much since?

The Kislev 'Army book' mentions "Bear" 34 times, reaching near wulfing the wolf claw with the wolfing wolf power levels.

None of these references are to bear cavalry. On the contrary, Tsar Boris riding one is portrayed as near legendary status.

I've played warhammer since 2000 or so, and known about the hobby even earlier, and I did not imagine Kislev as bear riding russians at all. Because I have never seen it in 28mm GW material, nor models for it. For all its existence in a 1996 book, fact is that they havent had bears as cavalry for a generation. The Kislev Allied contingent could take exactly 1 bear. Same for their Mordheim team. This has been the situation for longer than the interwar perios between the two world wars.

Might be players like yourself always considered the Kislev faction to use bears as war horses and pulling their cannons and having magic ice arrow shooting troops, but I cant agree that this has been their image since 6th edition. If anything whatever models have been available and whatever table top material has been released have been of a fairly mundane, almost historical war game faction. I think having bears as regular mounts and as "sled horses" for guns are changing the kislev image that they have had for decades.

Source: http://sgabetto.free.fr/Telechargements/kislev-book.pdf







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 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Yeah that's the problem really - people making up their own minds about what Kislev was like, even if that view of them is not how they actually were.

I agree that this is the issue of it, and anyone who joined when Kislev was using the allied contingent book (the only one they ever had or?) has never seen bear cavalry or magic ice archeresses in the game, unless they went digging into oop books and novels.

What's funny to me is that the regular units also got expanded just as much. The ratio of normal to crazy didn't really change, but some people blaze right past a half-dozen normal to bitch about one unit of bear riders.

The fact that there are units that made it into this game that aren't bears proves that they're dumbing it down for the casuals.

Go back to Fortnite if you have a problem with bears.

Do you think it will contain scatter dice and templates?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 kodos wrote:
"big" part, there was a hero riding a normal sized bear and Ice Magic being the northern version of one of the winds
but going by this we will see the new Empire models wearing hoods, using Scythe and riding big ghostly horses because Amethyst has always been a theme for the Empire
expecting something to be realistic and mundane instead of over the top is naive at best

No, there was far more than that. Kislev had just as much of an Ice magic and bear theming as here. The Ice queen, Frozen Court, Ice Palace, Ice Witches, the spirit of the land of Kislev being a bear with their religion involving bears and a God of Bears who took the form of a bear, with that bear religion and Kislev culture being heavily linked and their society having an overall heavy emphasis on bears. Been that way since at least second edition of the RPG back in 2004.

Imma blow your mind. The South Korean executive residence is called the blue house - but it isn't actually blue (okay, the roof might be, but still). The Crystal Palace in the UK wasn't actually built of crystal (rather being made of glass and iron), and the winter palace in Russia wasn't actually made of "Winter" (and was in fact used year-round), nor is the "Beehive House" in Salt Lake City, Utah actually Beehive. The Star Chamber in England wasn't shaped like a star. The "Jade Court" chinese restaurant down the street is not actually made of Jade, nor is the "Lotus Village" residential development a few towns over particularly known for its Lotus plants, which are not native to New Jersey (nor is New Jerseys environment particularly conducive towards their growth). The Chinese Dragon Emperors certainly weren't actual dragons, nor were the Jade Emperors made of Jade, nor was Edward the Black Prince (nor most nobles referred to as "the black") actually, yknow, black. Likewise, Charles "The Hammer" Martel was not actually a hammer, nor was Ernest the Iron made of Iron, nor did Richard the Lionheart actually have the literal heart of a literal lion. Macbeth, "the Red King" was neither Red nor the king of said color, nor was Isabella "the She-Wolf of France" actually a wolf/she-wolf, nor was Louis the Sun King the King of the Sun nor a sun in kingly form.

Names can be evocative without being literal, and fantasy settings are full of evocative titles that aren't tied to literalism. The Mountain that Rides might ride, but is not actually a mountain, nor was the Onion Knight actually an onion.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying I dsagree with your premise that Kislev always had plenty of ice and bears going on, just that without details that actually made "the Ice Queen" or the "Ice Palace" icy or the "Frozen Court" frozen it doesn't necesarilly mean that these things were quite so literal.