I love the series as its gone so far. It offers a great deal of insight as to the individual primarchs and their warriors. You see the tragedy unfold and see it truly as a tragedy. Horus is a likeable character in the begining. And seeing his fall and how he was currupted was excellent. Seeing the events from the eyes of ordanary humans also adds to the story as well. It fills in the gaps that existed in the fluff and also adds more questions. I've been playing the game for over 10 years. And, these books are a joy to read. I tried to get my wife into the game. But that was unsuccessful. However, I passed her the first three books of the series and told her that it would help her to understand the back story of the game. I left for deployment nearly 2 years ago. While I was deployed my wife picked up the rest of the series and fell in love with the various 40k books. Our libary of warhammer books at home is quite large. I think by last count we've ammassed over a hundred of the books of the various series in the 40k universe.
Its kinda funny when I go to the shop where I play. My wife gets into discussions with the other players about the fluff and the various back stories. Their ammazed by how much a woman knows about the game that they play. Me and her even discuss the fluff and the novels. All it took was the first 3 Horus Hersey books and she's hooked. (Still can't convince her to play a game. But, its a victory none the less)

I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

Panzerboy26 wrote:I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

What large parts of the fluff are they rewriting? Much of what they're writing about is based on a couple sentences from an old Index Astartes article that isn't even available anymore, or a snippet of fluff from the back of a codex. Hell, the entire Horus Heresy was only invented so they could sell the old Epic starter game as one with Marines vs. Chaos Marines in a massive civil war! Your other comments I see as very valid, however. It does explore some details that have been kept very, very vague, and they remove some of the mystery from the setting. The books in the series I've read have been some of the best books from BL though. I'm not absolutely nuts about the series, but if Aaron Dembski-Bowden writes a Horus Heresy story, I'm going to read it.

Brother SRM wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

What large parts of the fluff are they rewriting? Much of what they're writing about is based on a couple sentences from an old Index Astartes article that isn't even available anymore, or a snippet of fluff from the back of a codex. Hell, the entire Horus Heresy was only invented so they could sell the old Epic starter game as one with Marines vs. Chaos Marines in a massive civil war! Your other comments I see as very valid, however. It does explore some details that have been kept very, very vague, and they remove some of the mystery from the setting. The books in the series I've read have been some of the best books from BL though. I'm not absolutely nuts about the series, but if Aaron Dembski-Bowden writes a Horus Heresy story, I'm going to read it.

Just a few things off the top of my head for the things they've simply outright changed:

love it =D

Like some of the stories.

Don't like the retcons and ignorance of the setting.

The only HH book that I've liked is Know No Fear.The rest were pretty boring, IMO.

Retcons are such a common thing in 40k that a book series with a decent number of them doesn't really rub me the wrong way at all. This is all stuff that supposedly happened a long, long time ago and doesn't generally change that much in the "current" setting.

Brother SRM wrote:Retcons are such a common thing in 40k that a book series with a decent number of them doesn't really rub me the wrong way at all. This is all stuff that supposedly happened a long, long time ago and doesn't generally change that much in the "current" setting.

True enough, but it's generally 'recent' stuff that's retconed. For the most part the 'in the mists of legend at the founding of the Imperium' has been left alone over the past nearly two decades.

Redoing Lysander's fluff is one thing, changing up a Primarch is something entirely different.

Not knowing the old fluff, the HH series is the fluff to me. I have been reading them non stop for the last year and i love them.

Granted the fluff is just that. But, what the HH series does is give the emperor and primarchs a human side. That just wasn't able to be explored in the fluff.

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

None of that has changed. It was just not know before. It contradicts nothing.

And you get it all worng with the Webway. The Webway isnt the Eldars homework, they just use it. And the Emperor didnt want to steal it but build its own.

They're a bit inconsistant in terms of enjoyability IMO, luckily I have been able to avoid some of the worse ones. I mainly read them now for any sort of link with the Garro/birth of the inquisition sub-plot.

I'd say I'm middle ground. I haven't read them all (in fact, most I've listened to the audio books). Some of the books are pretty miserable (Battle for the Abyss, Deliverance Lost...). Some of them are reasonably good (A Thousand Sons, The First Heretic). Some are passably good (Know No Fear, the first three about the Sons of Horus). Others are definitely mediocre (Fulgrim, Outcast Dead...).

Really the only problem I've had with them is the fact that they try so hard to tell war stories, but are written by guys who don't know much, if anything about war. Plus, the Space Marines are relatively bland characters, and they are the focus of the novels because GW knows that's what the readership wants to read about. Some of the best classic GW fiction was about relatively innocuous characters. As a result, some of the best characters of the HH series have been the regular humans like the Remembrancers (McNeill for example, as poorly as he writes Space Marines, he writes relatively good human characters). Honestly, the stories should be more about the Space Marines from the perspectives of the regular humans. The more the two dimensional Space Marines dominate the story, the less interesting they are. The primarchs can be an exception to this, as when written well, their tales of corruption are intriguing.

I don't like some of the alterations that have been made, and it often seems that the much-vaunted coordination and meetings amongst Black Library staff and authors isn't nearly as good as people say. There are a lot of poorly conceived and coordinated things occurring. A lot of macguffins and a lot of "it's the Warp, that's how it works" hand-waving to replace coherent storytelling. A good example being the fact that the entire Word Bearers chapter participates at Istvaan V, and then travels halfway across the galaxy to Calth to attack it and the Ultramarines are completely unaware. Let's think about this. The largest ever mobilization of Space Marine Legions. Seven Legions sent to attack four that have apparently turned traitor, and event that is entirely unprecedented and completely inconceivable. And somehow, word of this never made it to Guilliman and the Ultramarines? LOL. Everybody seemed to know about Istvaan except Guilliman, and nobody bothered to tell him? Even with the months leading up to it, and the time taken afterwards for the Word Bearers to get to Calth? And why? "Because Warp Storms".

Dark Scipio wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

None of that has changed. It was just not know before. It contradicts nothing.

And you get it all worng with the Webway. The Webway isnt the Eldars homework, they just use it. And the Emperor didnt want to steal it but build its own.

It contradicts plenty. All of those things are changes.

According to an interview with Abnett, your first point was always something that the writers believed. In fact, from what I understand Abnett presented several plot twists when he was pitching Legion, all of them were accepted and he was told to add in the one you seem to have so much issue with. He was told that this was always something that they had wanted to present but didn't have a decent source to add it where it would be meaningful.

The next two I have some sympathy for, but your last point you're just mad because the Emperor isn't as super amazing as you want him to be.

It had some good books, but I gave up on it. You have to wade through too much crap to find the occasional gem of actual literature.

To me the Horus Heresy books just means less novels dedicated to the present of 40k, which in my opinion is more interesting anyway. That and I think Chaos and the Imperium are a tad overexposed and will happily take any book that does not feature one or the other and revel in the breath of fresh air. So I've generally avoided the series.

Kain wrote:To me the Horus Heresy books just means less novels dedicated to the present of 40k, which in my opinion is more interesting anyway. That and I think Chaos and the Imperium are a tad overexposed and will happily take any book that does not feature one or the other and revel in the breath of fresh air. So I've generally avoided the series.

I can see the point in this. But there are also novels based around the eldar, tau and even orks. Granted, I'd like to see a book written from the view point of the Necrons. It'd be different to see how the Necron lords interact with their Ctan masters and see their own rivalary between other Necron lords. In terms of the HH they give illumination to the individual primarchs. I'd really like to get a book that shows off the White Scars and their involvement. Which I admit is a bit of a disappointment not to see Khan. His legion also held the line at Terra and was able to resecure the Lions Gate space port. I really want to see them in action in a coming book.

Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

Kain wrote:To me the Horus Heresy books just means less novels dedicated to the present of 40k, which in my opinion is more interesting anyway. That and I think Chaos and the Imperium are a tad overexposed and will happily take any book that does not feature one or the other and revel in the breath of fresh air. So I've generally avoided the series.

I can see the point in this. But there are also novels based around the eldar, tau and even orks. Granted, I'd like to see a book written from the view point of the Necrons. It'd be different to see how the Necron lords interact with their Ctan masters and see their own rivalary between other Necron lords. In terms of the HH they give illumination to the individual primarchs. I'd really like to get a book that shows off the White Scars and their involvement. Which I admit is a bit of a disappointment not to see Khan. His legion also held the line at Terra and was able to resecure the Lions Gate space port. I really want to see them in action in a coming book.

Read the Fall of Damnos, about 1/4 to a 1/3 is done from the necrons view point. It is something that I also want to see - huge numbers of bikes riding round with a primarch at the head of the charge. The series is good but does get a bit boring in some places when its the same thing over and over again, such as the fact the Lion thinks that Guilliman is a bigger traitor than Horus.

The problem I have had with the HH is that there are, despite some real gems, enough turds to really spoil what had the makings of a decent bowl of punch.

I guess this is what you get when you have writers of such disparate ability writing books in a series that just cries out for continuity as this series does.

I like to see what the do as filling in some of the blanks about the story. They're rewriting some of he story that we all know and love. Also, the books have drawn people in who haven't played the game or even heard of warhammer. They reveal that the primarchs weren't infalible. They did have their own faults. It gives them a humanity.

3 people: myself, a professional writer and a guy who has excellent literary taste have basically loved every one of them. Gav Thorpe has a somewhat amateurish style (bit of a consensus there) yet not a terrible story despite that. Abnett and Mcneill rock, and Boden has been exposed as being an absolute gem.

Before I even got into Warhammer I was recommended the fiction (6 months ago or a bit more) and I started my indoctrination with the HH. It didn't take long before I was put off so many books my negative reviews and whining, only to read them and thoroughly enjoy them. Of course I have my favourites but overall love the series and have enjoyed every book without fail.

Love the HH series, putting it 3rd as far as series go ( Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire being #1 and 2)

A couple of books which i did not enjoy that much, but all in all I find each book to give that much more background to what i think is the most interesting time period of this universe.

Comes third for me as well (LotR and Dune) but except for Cohesion lost and battle of the abyss, they've been mostly great. Yes there are some parts that have been rewritten but Legion, Fulgrim, a thousand sons, Prospero Burns, Iron without, the last church, anything by ADB, and KNF I loved. It shows you how it happened, how we got to GRIMDARK and that moment where it could have been salvaged, where the whole thing could have been averted but for human fallibility. And I love it for that.

Not a fan.

Don't really care about a fictional history to a game where the fluff is so irrelevant that it gets retconned every edition anyway.

Also, not generally a fan of marine bolterporn - nor a retelling of "Paradise Lost" with space marines instead of angels.

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

None of that has changed. It was just not know before. It contradicts nothing.

And you get it all worng with the Webway. The Webway isnt the Eldars homework, they just use it. And the Emperor didnt want to steal it but build its own.

It contradicts plenty. All of those things are changes.

Spoiler:

Alpharius was once a single Primarch. Now he is twins. They doubled the number of him. 1 and 2 are different numbers, where once he was one... now he is two. That, to me, is a massive re-write of the fluff.

Fulgrim was never hollowed out and possessed by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince before, he was a Primarch who Horus personally talked into joining his side when Fulgrim tried to come and talk some sense into him. This is another change to the fluff.

The biggest change was that Horus was NEVER tricked into being a traitor, no one manipulated him. He was presented with a choice, and knowing full well that he was betraying the Emperor for his own self-reasons, he sided with Chaos. It made him a very strong, certain, respectable badguy. Watching him be manipulated into reaching fairly erroneous conclusions to play up the 'tragedy' of it makes me lose all kinds of respect for him. Again, this pretty hugely changes the fluff.

Sure, he wanted to 'create his own' webway. It's still copying the Eldar's notes right before class. Sure the Old Ones built it. But it's how the Eldar avoid warp travel, how their society functions in a universe where the entire warp wants to omnomnom their souls. It just seems lazy from a writer's pov that the Emperor could come up with something unique as a possible answer to the Warp. This last one isn't so much a change to the fluff as just a MASSIVE letdown.

And there were once 5 chaos gods, and gods of law of as well. Now there are only 4 chaos gods and no gods of Law (perhaps GW couldn't afford to pay Michael Moorecock that much in royalties?). Space Marines were once convicts hardwired with cranial bombs and augmetics and forced to fight for the rather vague imperium. Now they're the "angels of death." Change happens, the fluff has never been sacrosanct or fully formed.
That being said, overall, I like the books, I like having a fuller picture of the Horus Heresy, even if some of the changes annoy me:
Things I dislike:


Things I like:


So, overall, I enjoyed the books. A few, very few, things disappoint me, but that's just the nature of any fluff expansion.

I've read several of them now, and I love them. Some of them are better than others, and I'm unfamiliar with the old fluff, but if you want an opinion on the series as a whole, I say their great. It was reading Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons that really got me into the 40k world.

I have loved alot of them, a couple were meh to me (i.e. Legion, Tales of Heresy). Others I Really loved (i.e. an about the original Luna Wolves and before Horus was wounded.)
Fulgrim was sick. However, it was strangely enrapturing.

cowen70 wrote: a guy who has excellent literary taste have basically loved every one of them.

This sentence contains two conflicting and irreconcilable statements in it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deathholydeath wrote:
Things I dislike:

Spoiler:

Lorgar is... well, disappointing. He was manipulated by his own stewards.

I'm not terribly happy with the way Angron is presented in the Age of Darkness collection.

I have enjoyed most of the series but there were a few inconsistencies and dire books that annoyed me.

I have not read them all. Some of the books I've enjoyed, even the ones that weren't my favs I didnt' hate enough to put the book down and not finish the story.


I really liked "Thousand Sons". I really enjoyed it. Whether it was "good literature" is not for me to say since I am not a literature expert. The story captured my interest.


Having played and enjoyed Adeptus Titanicus back in 1990 I was glad to get some additional background info on the HH. Even if it's changing (i.e. mutating) as time goes by.

Angron was a product of the planet that he landed on. Granted the butchers nails didn't help, but the emperor saw that dispite his short comings that Angron was atleast in some part a nessary leader in the way he waged war. Though Angron always bore a grudge against the emperor for not allowing him to die in battle with those of whom he lead his rebellion with. So it makes sense that he would turn. Khan his second in command is a great character in my book. He is the other side of the World Eaters legion. Pick up Butchers Nails audio drama. Its a great story. You even see alittle bit of Angrons relationship with Logar, which is actually suprising.

A small point on the "re-write" of Alpharius / Omegon being Twins.

i fully believe that this was the intention from the beginning (or a HUGE coincidence) for the following reasons.

Alpharius is supposedly named after a Star named Alphard (from an arabic word for "solitary one") which is found in the constellation named Hydra. The tie in between the legion and his name are quite obvious from this observation. However, what is little known is that Alphard is a binary star. It was thought to be a single star throughout most of its known existence, but in truth it is a double star (an unseen twin.....hmmmmm.)

The constellation Hydra actually has at least 4 of these binary stars.

So in my books at least, GW always intended this, even if they never fully came out with it. Also, it shows that "Alpharius" was not the worst named primarch, and actually had quite a bit of thought put into him.

All the primarchs names have meanings to them. They're lously based around mythology, and historical figures.

Oh without a doubt. Some are a lot more clever than others for sure, but thought i would bring it up because of the "fluff change" regarding the twins, as well as how many people on the internet go off about how little thought went into the primarchs of the XX legion.

Your wife and i are alike. I love the books but will not play the game. I cant even get my wife to read the books. Lol

Its kinda funny me and my wife talk about warhammer a lot. I'm really glad that I was able to get her into the books. Though she doesn't play, I've picked up models of Abbadon, and old ord squigs for her. She's actually making the old squig into a charm for a necklace. And the Abbadon model is so she can invision him in the 41st mellenia as opposed to the great cursade.

I like the stories... i mean there isn't much I don't like but that's because i don't really know what makes it bad... I like things to a lesser extent I guess, but to me the HH novels are good as what they are.

Not amazing literary works but more fun novels that add some more to the fluff universe.

So I guess I love it? X) I've only read a couple so that might change

They're fun to read. The fact the explore the experiences of normal humans is really cool to me. To live in the times when the imperium was the leading force to be contended with. Awesome stuff.

I generally like the books, pretty much the only one I really had trouble with was Outcast Dead, and that's because of the timeline issues in it.

I don't look at it as really retconning the fluff, more of "pulling back the veil" on information that had (in universe) been lost for 10,000+ years.

The Alpharius thing especially makes sense with the Alpha Legion, after all:

I enjoy them. They aren't all winners (Fulgrim was the worst, IMHO), but they're certainly entertaining.

What didn't you like about fulgrim? Just curious.

I have to admit too. Fulgrim was a little different. I always thought of him as being vayne and arogant. But, seeing him possessed kinda answered why he turned. The sword though was a interesting twist. I liked the cover art of the book. But, the fight between Fulgrim on the cover was both cool, but the clash of the teo primarchs on the cover was confusing. It looks like Ferrus Manus has a bloody cresent rench.

If you thought that was different read the first part of the Primarchs book.

I love the Horus Heresy, and I agree that some of the stories are a little meh. The outcast dead is the best example of the horus heresy series going 100% wrong, and I still despise that book on my bookshelf.

But gems like Flight of the Eisenstein , The First Heretic, and A Thousand Sons are amazing stories.

Deathshead420 wrote:What didn't you like about fulgrim? Just curious.

Though I enjoyed the books I had one major problem...

The look ofthe Primarchs.

I spent years and years designing the primarchs as I saw them in my minds eye.

The descriptions of them used to be few and far between.

Magnus the Red is the stupidest looking character in anything ever. The two headed announcer from the podrace in Episode one looked better.

If you want to see a real Magnus please check out my gallery.

I always imagined Leman Russ as a large balding viking with a huge, white, braided beard. Guess he's a ginger.

I always felt Alpharius should have been a small discreet primarch that didn't have a huge mane of hair and a crazy serpent cape. Guess I'm glad they did change that.

Basically I hate John Blanche. If you like his artwork than I simply cannot agree with you on anything art related.

His style is... Scrible till out of black ink. Add red watercolor to taste.

In short, I have no problem with the HH novels. I hate the HH art books.

Russ is derived from Rus (the originating word of Russia etc) Related to early Slavic terms from bear and red.

DeffDred wrote:
I always imagined Leman Russ as a large balding viking with a huge, white, braided beard. Guess he's a ginger.

Well, to be fair, artwork for Russ has been around far longer than Blanche's.


But it shouldn't surprise you that he's a ginger. After all, it's pretty obvious that the Space Wolves don't have any souls.

I've read the first four and Fulgrim. I loved the first one. I feel like they go down hill slowly with each book (writing skill dropping for the most part, characters less dimensional). I'm getting ready to start Mechanicum.

I started playing 40k back in Rogue Trader. Slaves to Darkness was my bible... I played Grey Knights and Emperor's Children in the early 90's. I'm not a huge fan of the changes to the narratives (Eisenstein etc.) but that's just a personal thing I guess.

I do enjoy reading about background events and psychology of the characters. The battles are mostly hack writing in my opinion.

Has anyone here read Blood Gorgons? I really, really like almost all aspects of that book including the violence and I'm trying to decide if the writing style was all that different... the battles seemed to be written much better.

Love them-I enjoy reading about things that seem cool to me, and HH is my favorite set of events in 40k. Flight of the Eisenstein is my favorite so far. The ones I haven't liked as much tend to be a result of a legion I didn't like (Fulgrim and Legion) but the others are all entertaining.

After Eisenstein and anything Garro related, my favorites are Prospero Burns, Battle for the Abyss/Know No Fear, and Iron Within from Age of Darkness.

The one thing I do hate about the series is that the storyline relating to Garro has been moved to audiobook form as I like reading about things instead of listening.

I overall enjoy the stories enough to pick up the installments as they come out. Currently, ADB is my favorite, I can usually trust McNeil and Abnett to deliver, and I can always expect Gav Thorpe to be terrible and hackneyed. Everyone else falls somewhere in the middle.


Seriously, Gav Thorpe is awful. Here's an example, where a few of the HH authors are asked a question about their favorite part of the HH:

What, of all the things written, both by yourself or others, have you found to be the most heart-rending or soul searching of events or characters within the Heresy?

Graham McNeill: I definitely had a lump in my throat when Torgaddon died.

Gav Thorpe: Corax’s single tear in Raven’s Flight as he realises the galaxy has changed and doesn’t know where he fits in it anymore.

Dan Abnett: I don’t have a specific event, but I love the fact that, before he falls, Horus Lupercal is such a likeable character. It makes it much more tragic when he does turn.

James Swallow: I really liked the moment in Flight of the Eisenstein when the planet is virus bombed and Temeter nobly sacrifices himself.

Three of the authors pick moments of great heroism and/or deep tragedy. Gav Thorpe picks some juvenile emo bullcrap. The fact that he actually thinks a Primarch shedding a single tear because he feels sorry for himself is cool, speaks volumes. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a cutter in high school. Someone in this thread called him amateurish. Although that's very true, that's the least of his problems.

I can use help deciding my next book.

I have read Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein, Fulgrim, and then I jumped around a bit.

Next I read Prospero Burns, A thousand Sons, First Heretic, Know know Fear, Aurelian, and Primarchs. The order in which I read them was really good imo, because it followed almost like one big story arc.


I'm not sure which one to read next, any suggestions ?

Deathshead420 wrote:I can use help deciding my next book.

I have read Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Flight of the Eisenstein, Fulgrim, and then I jumped around a bit.

Next I read Prospero Burns, A thousand Sons, First Heretic, Know know Fear, Aurelian, and Primarchs. The order in which I read them was really good imo, because it followed almost like one big story arc.


I'm not sure which one to read next, any suggestions ?

Depends, do you have a favorite legion / primarch?

No not really. I am a little sic of the traitors though to be honest.

Than the first to come to my mind would be Deliverance Lost, which some people don't like at all, but i found to be one of my favorites.

Or if you happen to like the Alpha Legion, i would recommend Legion highly, one also one of my favorites so far.

kronk wrote:

Deathshead420 wrote:What didn't you like about fulgrim? Just curious.

Spoiler:

Choking out a Wraithlord, which doesn't breathe, was wrong on so many levels. That was a fail not only of fluff and silliness, but one of the basics of Eldar knowledge. Inexcusable.

It's funny isn't it, there can be a single defining moment that breaks that suspension of disbelief, and then the whole thing falls on its bottom.

McNeil can be incredible at producing end of book quotes that put the hairs on your neck up on end. Actually, I was going to mention Fulgrim - when he is looking around on Istvaan, and sees what has become of his children, and then the enormity of what he has done finally hits home. Similarly Mechanicum, where there is an incredibly poignant moment towards the end of the book - everything has gone to hell, and in a single sentence we see the contrast between the 30k and 40k universes. I can't remember the exact quote unfortunately, but something along the lines of "and in that moment, as the great forges sank between the waves of magma, all hope of lifting humankind towards a state of enlightenment not seen since the Dark Ages of Technology were lost forever."

I do think though that some of the writing in the Heresy series (and this is my biggest problem with it) is that it is so difficult to write 'evil' characters well, and at the same time not making them paradoxical in nature, and destroying that suspension of disbelief. ADB and McNeil (at least in A Thousand Sons) do it well, by not actually making the characters 'evil' - those characters have to believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and there are reasons for it, even if they ultimately end up on the 'wrong' side. But, when you have characters just turning on a dime and doing 'evil for evils sake' the whole thing comes across as false and contrived.

I think in part this is due to how the concept of 'Chaos' has changed over the years. In terms of its original concept (from Michael Moorcock et al) it was always meant to represent freedom from rule and infinite possibility. The direct, straight lined arrow of the Imperium represented the opposite. However, over time this conception has changed, and rather than the design of the demons from the warp being influenced by Eastern religions, of spirits which have varied character and are as varied as everything else in nature, instead they followed the Middle-Age Christian Church embellishments of the Bible, and those definitions of 'evil' daemons and spirits which exist only to inflict suffering on others. The problem is that the concept of 'evil for evil' sake' is intrinsically paradoxical, and so clashes with any attempt to create strong narrative and character arcs that the reader can relate to. The classic example of this is the classic "let no good deed go unpunished, let no evil deed go unrewarded" quote in the last Chaos Codex - if there was an entry in the Guinness Book of Records for the most eye-rolling caused by a single extract then that would surely win the award. So, at least for myself the series has been at its best when it has stayed away from the more poorly imagined, ephemeral concepts inherent to the background. One of the biggest disappointment of the series for me was 'Horus -> stabbed by magic sword -> starts nailing babies to forehead'. I would have much rathered that there was some kind of real rationale for why the Heresy took place, rather than events which seem to have removed the over-arching narrative from any form of cause and effect, beyond the most cursory of explanations ("erm... my father has gone back to Terra, how dare he!"

Having said that, I love the way that the most of the marines in the Heresy series have so much character, and give the reader so much to relate to - contrast with the two-dimensional drones who are often featured in the 40k universe. Also, when the likes of Abnett have been given some room on the leash to come up with some new concepts and ideas - Legion was perhaps one of the most compulsive page-turners ever released by Black Library, and Prospero Burns helped solidify the Space Wolves as a far more believable (and important) concept. I think when Abnett has been given less breathing room, more clearly defined borders (for example concerning the rather poorly named 'Know No Fear' - book must start with treachery of Word Bearers, surprise attack, ends with rugged resistance) then I've tended to enjoy them less just because you know exactly where it begins and how it is going to end. Although, I realise that that is probably more of a subjective thing as I know a lot of people really enjoyed that book.

Anyway, while I don't have the enthusiasm for the Heresy series that I once had, for the most part I am still enjoying reading them. To be honest it hasn't been helped by 'The Primarchs' which I am struggling through at the moment, and is coming across as though it is some kind of collection of B-sides. - I thought 'The Mirror Crack'd', again aside from the crappy and slightly pretentious title (who is coming up with them?) features probably the worst story I have ever read of McNeil's, and the second story in the book was completely unremarkable - I've already forgotten the title in fact! Finally, I hope they don't pull too much of a 'Lost' and delve to deeply into various different tangents, as much as I enjoy them from time to time. I think the series could really do with a 'big episode', featuring the central characters in the story (Horus and the Emp), and helping to pull everything together towards a more conducive whole.

And finally, yes a real reason for the Heresy taking place. Has anyone else realised that we don't have one yet? And no, I'm not talking about the sword!

Panzerboy26 wrote:Just a few things off the top of my head for the things they've simply outright changed:

Spoiler:

Alpharius is apparently twins.

Horus was 'tricked' into betraying the Emperor, rather than just being a power hungry guy who proactively took an offer of power from Gods he didn't quite fully understand. Makes him a FAR weaker character in my book.

Fulgrim was apparently hollowed out and worn as a suit by a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

Apparently the Emperor's big 'plan' was to steal the Eldar's homework and conquer the Webway so that it could be used by humans instead of Warp Travel... and the REAL reason the Emperor got mad at Magnus for using forbidden magicks to try and warn him about Horus' betrayal was that in doing so, he 'broke' the part of the Golden Throne that would give mankind access to it.

Alpharius was always a twin, Horus had been tricked by the chaos gods, and the Emperor was always trying to get into the webway.

When I started reading the first book of the HH, I was half tempted to put the book down and never read it again. By the end of the first, my opinion hadn't changed much. Since I bought the first two at once, I decided to read the second book and was glad I didn't stop. It was amazing.
Favorite was galaxy in flames, then flight of the Einstein, then Fulgrim, though Iv'e read the first 6 books before skipping to random parts of the series.

Legion was perhaps one of the most compulsive page-turners ever released by Black Library

I agreed with every thing you said in your post for the most part, I think I will read Legion next. Thanks.

Pacific wrote:And finally, yes a real reason for the Heresy taking place. Has anyone else realised that we don't have one yet? And no, I'm not talking about the sword!

It would be nice to have one, yes.

I'm not not sure what happened to the 'Horus being the right ruler of the Imperium' story that has, as far as I know, always been the case. Now the Heresy is happening because he is angry and his brothers are going along for the ride. Not enough has been revealed about the what Horus has said to the other Primarchs yet and Lorgar going along with it seems a bit off too, in my opinion. Why's he even bothering to help Horus when he's got what he wants and showed every one the Chaos Gods, it's all starting to meander a bit.

Horus falling to chaos was supposed to be a by product of the Heresy, not him shaking hands with Daemons and going all Papa Shango. It was supposed to be a gradual corruption that made his ending a little more tragic not the straight out 'ha ha, look at me I am evil now, grr!'

Deathshead420 wrote:

Legion was perhaps one of the most compulsive page-turners ever released by Black Library

I agreed with every thing you said in your post for the most part, I think I will read Legion next. Thanks.

till you get to the end... then you'll throw it against the wall. It's another patented Dan Abnett 'Oh, am I out of pages, better wrap this up then whether or not it makes a lick of sense' ending.

I recommend ripping out the last 5 pages then imagining how it might end.

Pacific wrote:

kronk wrote:

Deathshead420 wrote:What didn't you like about fulgrim? Just curious.

Spoiler:

Choking out a Wraithlord, which doesn't breathe, was wrong on so many levels. That was a fail not only of fluff and silliness, but one of the basics of Eldar knowledge. Inexcusable.

It's funny isn't it, there can be a single defining moment that breaks that suspension of disbelief, and then the whole thing falls on its bottom.

Exactly. It completely took me "out of the book". I finished the story, and the book wasn't a complete loss, but it was annoying, to say the least. Certainly the worst of the bunch in my opinion.

Pacific wrote:Having said that, I love the way that the most of the marines in the Heresy series have so much character, and give the reader so much to relate to - contrast with the two-dimensional drones who are often featured in the 40k universe.

The books that focus on the personality of certain Space Marines or even Primarchs are the ones that I like best. I think that's the reason for my appeal to ADB, perhaps. He writes gritty, grim-dark well, but can put some personality to the characters. If he doesn't make me like the character(s) he is focusing on, he at least makes me care about what happens to them (sometimes you want bad things to happen to them...)

I like the series so far since it's actually more than just a 'sandbox' story: its an attempt at a large, multi-author arcing plot to expand the universe, and as far as I am concerned its working. It adds alot of depth to the background and while it de-mythifies some things (like the Primarchs) it also has done a fairly good job of introducing more mysteries that have yet to be answered. What's more, it's still a going concern, so alot of the things that don't seem to 'make sense' now are still in the process of evolving. I'm willing to at least wait for awhile and see how things turn out in a few more years, especially as we move closer to the Battle of Terra.

Did someone really say Fulgrim was a so so book. Fulgrim alone carries 40k lol. that book has A PRIMARCH DIE. Fulgrim is one the best books ive ever read, all of my friends agree that Fulgrim rivals the simirillian ( dont know if i spelt that correct )

The first 3 books were amazing. Flight of Eisenstein was okay. Fulgrim was mind blowing. Decent of angels was badass, just awesome, the last part of DOA was disappointing.

As far as 40k books go Nick Kyme is an alright writer, Fall of Damnos was an awful book, it took me almost a year to finish it, it was so dry, and its a BATTLE book, with no conclusive ending..... horrible.

Nick kymes writing and story telling has improved greatly throughout the salamander trilogy.

Aaron is the best writer BL has, the Night lord books are the best written books Ive seen, the background story for Conrad Kurze is mind blowing, you actually understand and feel bad for the chaos marines.. opens up an entire new side of thinking when it comes to the universe of 40k.

I was also curious about Horus,

I'm 90 % sure he is not influenced by Erebus, or Magnus, or chaos anything before he betrays the imperium. In False gods he is talking with the other races leader aboard the vengeful spirit and the guy says " We have S T C Machines--- gets cut off and Horus blows his head off. Thats the deciding factor in whether or not Horus goes against the emperor. He realizes that with the STC machines he can beat the emperor. I was just wondering. WHY Didn't HORUS BE LIKE HEY DAD ARE YOU ASCENDING TO GODHOOD ? "NO SON THATS RANDOM LOOL?, WHY DO YOU ASK?!" "OH JUST WONDERING!" HORUS HERESY ADVERTED BY A DAM QUESTION..

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pacific wrote:And finally, yes a real reason for the Heresy taking place. Has anyone else realised that we don't have one yet? And no, I'm not talking about the sword!

It would be nice to have one, yes.

I'm not not sure what happened to the 'Horus being the right ruler of the Imperium' story that has, as far as I know, always been the case. Now the Heresy is happening because he is angry and his brothers are going along for the ride. Not enough has been revealed about the what Horus has said to the other Primarchs yet and Lorgar going along with it seems a bit off too, in my opinion. Why's he even bothering to help Horus when he's got what he wants and showed every one the Chaos Gods, it's all starting to meander a bit.

Horus falling to chaos was supposed to be a by product of the Heresy, not him shaking hands with Daemons and going all Papa Shango. It was supposed to be a gradual corruption that made his ending a little more tragic not the straight out 'ha ha, look at me I am evil now, grr!'

Agreed that Horus' motivations seem strange, especially since he didn't seem overly convinced by the daemons' charade when he was catatonic. "The Emperor fears me and is jealous of me? That's ridiculous and patently false. ... Hmm, now that I think about it, why doesn't the Emperor fear me and be jealous of me? I'm the baddest mofo of them all. That bastard, I'll show him!"

It's kind of like the awful prequel Trilogy. "I want to be a Jedi hero and gain acceptance from the Masters! But wait, I'm going to decapitate some kids now. I love my wife and turn to evil to protect her, but now I'm gonna choke the bitch like Wayne Brady."

As for Lorgar, he hasn't yet really revealed the true face of Chaos to his brothers, since it's pretty horrible to those without an "evolved" understanding of it.

Omegus wrote:

As for Lorgar, he hasn't yet really revealed the true face of Chaos to his brothers, since it's pretty horrible to those without an "evolved" understanding of it.

The others don't suspect why Lorgar is being all scary and his troops being all Daemony? He must have given Horus some pointers, or why bother sacrificing the population in Nemesis? Fulgrim knows for sure and Horus knows about Fulgrim, the brother Primarchs know.

But my meaning was that Lorgar originally used the Heresy to get Chaos and it's worship out in the open, now it's the case of less smoke and mirrors and it being a Chaos Rights Parade. The corruption has always been .. gradual. It just feels like from loyalist to traitor only takes a heartbeat. Where's the drama, where's the soul turning revelations?!

I do think though that some of the writing in the Heresy series (and this is my biggest problem with it) is that it is so difficult to write 'evil' characters well, and at the same time not making them paradoxical in nature, and destroying that suspension of disbelief. ADB and McNeil (at least in A Thousand Sons) do it well, by not actually making the characters 'evil' - those characters have to believe that what they are doing is the right thing, and there are reasons for it, even if they ultimately end up on the 'wrong' side. But, when you have characters just turning on a dime and doing 'evil for evils sake' the whole thing comes across as false and contrived.

It's license fiction. There has to be some kind of acceptance that the writing will be... iffy... from time to time. Obviously Counter's Battle For the Abyss was a crowning achievement in terrible characterization and storytelling. However, some of the problems around writing these characters is that they all started out as cardstock villains. Angr(y)on is the worst of the bunch. He's a terrible character on an epic scale. How do you write him well? It's just not possible, and kudos to some of the guys who have at least given it the old college try. But ultimately, these characters aren't going away. Because it's a well known license, the readership has certain expectations for them, and how they are going to act. Unfortunately, not all of these fans are discerning readers, so they don't care that their motivations are flimsy or contradictory. Those fans don't care that the character's place in the universe doesn't make sense. So it isn't like the authors can suddenly make huge strides with refining them. Some of the characters are just going to be easier than others.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Did someone really say Fulgrim was a so so book. Fulgrim alone carries 40k lol. that book has A PRIMARCH DIE. Fulgrim is one the best books ive ever read, all of my friends agree that Fulgrim rivals the simirillian ( dont know if i spelt that correct ) .

Primarchs deaths have been detailed in lots of books, lol. Does that make all of them automatically great? And the Simarillion is entirely unreadable. It's almost as muddled as Fellowship, and nearly as boring as the entire half of Two Towers devoted to trees talking about not doing anything. I was lucky enough to pick up a rare first printing of it at a public library book sale for like a dollar. Yeah, safe to say I've still never read the whole thing.

Ah now, Fellowship of the Ring is a great read. Way better than Return of the King.

Probably my most re-read book of all time.

On the heresy books, I seem to either like them or find them complete poo, with only a couple of ones I'm unsure of.

Abnetts have some really poor endings (especially prospero burns) and I am not enamoured of a certain sub plot he has been perpetually pushing. On the flip side they are very readable and immersive.

AD-Bs are all really good, but I think he's gotten some nice ones to write so far. I haven't read anything by him yet that I've disliked outside of the Heresy, but there's some tough ones coming up that should be an interesting test of his abilities.

McNeill was at his best with Thousand Sons, but many of his books are weak. I didn't enjoy Fulgrim, and the whole magic sword explanation really pisses me off after the fairly decent start the series had.

Who wrote Flight of the Eisenstein? that had some decent heroes but man the villains were complete gak. I was rolling my eyes reading it. Panto villain plague marines, woot.

Anything that I've seen get worse reviews than the ones I've mentioned I avoid. Outcast Dead was infuriating because of McNeill's repetitive writing style. He had a legion specific adjective for each character. The EC marine did everything "perfectly" with "perfect" poise to "perfection" and the World Eaters raged angrily about anger. Blech.

Neither love, nor hate. I really just don't care, and have no reason to care, about the Horus Heresy series.

There is almost nothing in it that interests me, positively or negatively.

Pacific wrote:
Also, when the likes of Abnett have been given some room on the leash to come up with some new concepts and ideas - Legion was perhaps one of the most compulsive page-turners ever released by Black Library, and Prospero Burns helped solidify the Space Wolves as a far more believable (and important) concept. I think when Abnett has been given less breathing room, more clearly defined borders (for example concerning the rather poorly named 'Know No Fear' - book must start with treachery of Word Bearers, surprise attack, ends with rugged resistance) then I've tended to enjoy them less just because you know exactly where it begins and how it is going to end. Although, I realise that that is probably more of a subjective thing as I know a lot of people really enjoyed that book.

For me, the fact that I knew what was going to happen made the build up to the betrayal in 'Know No Fear' in even more exciting. I think those three books you mentioned are the best three.

Pacific wrote:
Anyway, while I don't have the enthusiasm for the Heresy series that I once had, for the most part I am still enjoying reading them. To be honest it hasn't been helped by 'The Primarchs' which I am struggling through at the moment, and is coming across as though it is some kind of collection of B-sides. - I thought 'The Mirror Crack'd', again aside from the crappy and slightly pretentious title (who is coming up with them?) features probably the worst story I have ever read of McNeil's, and the second story in the book was completely unremarkable - I've already forgotten the title in fact!

I agree. i didn't enjoy The first two parts of 'The Primarchs'. I like the the one with the lion - although I wish they'd gone further with that story -

Frecklesonfire wrote:Did someone really say Fulgrim was a so so book. Fulgrim alone carries 40k lol. that book has A PRIMARCH DIE. Fulgrim is one the best books ive ever read, all of my friends agree that Fulgrim rivals the simirillian ( dont know if i spelt that correct ) .

...

From this, I can only assume you've read a total of two books in your life. One being Fulgrim, and the other, oh I don't know, anything by Gav Thorpe.

I know I already made my main point but everyone seemsto be really defining the moments from each book as they see them.

If that's the case I could put a little more effort into my review of the series.

I'll try to sum it up in pros and cons as I saw them. I know you won't all agree with me but hey, that's the interwebs for ya.

Horus Rising:
Good book. Abnett is my favorite BL author. The book had incredible revelations to us 40k fans about the way of life in the time of the Emperor.
It explained why there was such an overwhelming amout of statues and such in the 41st millenium. It gave examples of human life, astartes mentality and most importanly a look at HORUS!

False Gods/Galaxy in Flames:
Basically a continuation of Horus Rising. We learn more about life in the imperium. We learn about the races of the Milky Way in the past.
After reading these books I must admit I started taking Horus' side. I felt maybe Magnus didn't try to warn Horus hard enough or maybe Horus gave in to Erebus to quickly.

Flight of the Eisenstien:
Not my favorite. Felt to me like a bridge in the story (which it is) but didn't fill me in too much on Mortarion (one of my favorite primarchs). Introduced Garro, whom people seem to love for some reason.
Though the story was needed it seemed like a very long winded tale of Garro going from point a to point b to say "Hey Dorn! Your brother is flippin' crazy bro!"

Fulgrim:
Ugh. A huge book about the pretty, fancy, flamboyant Fulgrim. Having read McNeills Ultramarines novels and Storm of Iron I was a bit worried. I personally enjoyed the info on Ferrus and his legion. The chemistry between Fulgrim and Ferrus was well portrayed. I can live with a primarch choking out an Avatar but why? Why was there an Avatar there? What were the Eldar trying to achieve? "Oops forgot about stopping Horus! Finish your tea gentlemen we have to nip this Fulgrim thing in the bud before he becomes a prob- THE SWORD! OH NOOOOOES!!!"
Opera House orgy? Really?

Desent of Angels/ Fallen Angels:
I thought it was a stand alone book till Fallen Angels came out. So at first I thought it was complete crap. This book had the least amount of interest to me. I hate Dark Angels but gave it a try.
Nothing of interest save the origins of Cypher and the problems between the Lion and Luther. In the long run nothing new is really revealed. Angels of Darkness was more rewarding IMHO.

Legion:
One of the best books in the series. Most revelations. Shows us the overall story arc of the Warhammer universe. My problems were with the "Kabal" and the quick lame-duck ending. Some earlier said that Dan Abnett seems to run out of pages and just wraps it up... I can agree with that.

Battle for the Abyss:
Pointless book. Didn't even come into play in Know No Fear. No characters of note. Nothing of interest to me... and I'm an Ultramarine fanboy.

Mechanicum:
Cool book. Some neat tidbits about pre-imperial mars. The introduction of the Dragon was a bit strange to me. And I was left very confused at the ending.

Tales of Heresy/Age of Darkness:
Most of the contents has slipped from my memory. Some good short stories. I liked the clearer explaination for Angrons problems with the Emperor. The last church story was a bit weak to me but I know it has some diehard fans out there. On both of these I must have read them super fast. The spines are barely cracked.

Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns:
Fresher in my mind. I liked the info on the Thousand Sons. I could care less about Space Wolves. I felt a little letdown by these books. Magnus was a cool character but Russ wasn't much of player. And the fact they tried to shoehorn Eaters of the Dead/13th Warrior into it was a bit... stupid. Guess Abnett was looking through his Chrichton collection for insiration.

Nemesis:
Fine stand alone book. Had no real bearing on the HH as a whole other than "We won't use assassins because that's fighting dirty".

The First Heretic:
Should have been first book.

The Outcast Dead:
Worthless book. More info on Magnus screwing things up. We get it. The Emperor said no psycics for a reason... wait but didn't the Emperor admit to knowing what woul.... nevermind.
Thunderwarriors? Are they trying to tell us that the geneseed is a secret weapon to kill all space marines when they aren't needed anymore? Thats all I really got from that book.

Know No Fear:
As I said, I'm an Abnett fan and Ultramarine fanboy.
I hated this book. I wanted to read about Guilliman. He's barely in the book and all that's revealed is that he has a superb tactical mind....

The Primarchs:
Have yet to read it.

Kapitan Montag wrote:
I agree. i didn't enjoy The first two parts of 'The Primarchs'. I like the the one with the lion - although I wish they'd gone further with that story -

Spoiler:

especially where Lion goes against the Treaty of Nikea and seems to be on the verge of rejecting the Emperor. - I really wish GW would finally call that one and say that it was really Lion who turned

Once again Fulgrim, the joker of the HH. This book shook the entire series. This book is the meat and potatoes so far in the series, i dont understand how people think this book should be over looked. Vespasian comon..... Kantor comon.... Julius..... comon..... Murlocks comon....... Manus getting his had removed...... COME ON, you guys are so lame. This book had pretty much the best character list ever. Tragic things happen to all of them. And please... Eldrad shakes his head at Fulgrim, that alone made the book!

Top 3 books so far for epic scale would have to be Galaxy in flames ( where we didnt see why torgaddon die, but got an explanation as to how abaddon walks up a staircase .... wtf?) second id have to say is Fulgrim, and the best story so far with a really awesome indepth to the dark angel chapter, Decent of angels, ending was a little disappointing, but Luthor is a very important character in the 40k universe. And Zahariels story is very amazing. So many characters to love in these books.

Someone mentioned the series doesn't interest them, how can you even appreciate Warhammer without knowing its history. How can you even open a codex and be ignorant of its origin and its foundations. HH is law dammit!

Frecklesonfire wrote: ( where we didnt see why torgaddon die, but got an explanation as to how abaddon walks up a staircase .... wtf?)

I guess you mean Loken as we have a pretty decent description of Tarik getting his head cut off.

And if you mean Loken



Edit: realised my sentence made little sense.

Frecklesonfire wrote:
Top 3 books so far for epic scale would have to be Galaxy in flames ( where we didnt see why torgaddon die, but got an explanation as to how abaddon walks up a staircase .... wtf?)

What do you mean? A description of a sword slashing down at his neck and then the image of his head coming off is told from Loken's POV. What more did you need?

My only problem with that scene is that Loken drops to his knees in shock. Not a very Space Mariney thing to do, and a bit of bad writing on Counter's part.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Frecklesonfire wrote:
Top 3 books so far for epic scale would have to be Galaxy in flames ( where we didnt see why torgaddon die, but got an explanation as to how abaddon walks up a staircase .... wtf?)

What do you mean? A description of a sword slashing down at his neck and then the image of his head coming off is told from Loken's POV. What more did you need?

My only problem with that scene is that Loken drops to his knees in shock. Not a very Space Mariney thing to do, and a bit of bad writing on Counter's part.

I don't know, I think it was pretty well done honestly, it kind of showed the enormity of the event. Your closest Mournival brother being killed by your second closest Mournival brother is a big deal and shows that the Astartes aren't so removed from humanity as they would like us to think, 30k Astartes at least.

You guys dont recall the beginning of the fight, aximan and torgaddon were " an even match " , then you dont hear anything from them, next scene his head is gone.... and aximan is unscathed...

Pilau Rice wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Frecklesonfire wrote:
Top 3 books so far for epic scale would have to be Galaxy in flames ( where we didnt see why torgaddon die, but got an explanation as to how abaddon walks up a staircase .... wtf?)

What do you mean? A description of a sword slashing down at his neck and then the image of his head coming off is told from Loken's POV. What more did you need?

My only problem with that scene is that Loken drops to his knees in shock. Not a very Space Mariney thing to do, and a bit of bad writing on Counter's part.

I don't know, I think it was pretty well done honestly, it kind of showed the enormity of the event. Your closest Mournival brother being killed by your second closest Mournival brother is a big deal and shows that the Astartes aren't so removed from humanity as they would like us to think, 30k Astartes at least.

Disagree. Space Marines are what they are because they are as far removed from humanity as they are.

These guys had hundreds of years of combat experience. Loken is a decorated captain. You might expect shock and loss of focus amongst the Imperial Army, or perhaps even brand new initiates. A veteran of hundreds of battles who has surely seen countless friends die is going to be able to resolve the action at hand, and grieve later.

It's an infusion of too much human emotion to a trans-human character. And really, an excellent example of why it's very, very difficult to write Space Marines well. It requires a writer to enter an entirely alien mindset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frecklesonfire wrote:You guys dont recall the beginning of the fight, aximan and torgaddon were " an even match " , then you dont hear anything from them, next scene his head is gone.... and aximan is unscathed...

I think you need to pick the book up again. I checked right after you posted.

One section details Aximund and Torgaddon fighting and ends with with "sword slashed down at his neck" (basically, I don't have it in front of me right now), and the next section begins with Loken dropping to his knees as he watches Torgaddon's head get lopped off. Heck, that portion is even included in the abridged audio-book.

With the books bringing the primarchs to life it shows how vain Fulgrim was. Ferrus being stuburn. Guiliman being more strategic. The Lion being jaded. Logar being a pansy. Horus was actually likeable. Magnus was over confident. Sanguinus was actually remarkably human in his demmeaner. Dorn as a sure leader. Kurze being cryptic. Angron nearly bloody insane. Mortarion calculating. Corax being stealth in his pursuits and determination. Russ was shown as more then simply a sort of viking. Alpharous and Omegadon were revealed as being twins and calculating. Portorabo was blunt and just bloody. The only two primarchs who haven't seen any real illumination are Vulkan, and Khan. I look foreward to seeing the books that feature them.

I'm on the first book so far, looks good. Capture the irony and sorrow of the whole affair pretty well.

Don't love them but like and read them.

Love it, its my most read Black Library series right now. I love the look at what set the universe we know and love in motion.

it's great


it is what got me into Warhammer , odd as 32


it gives me some personality to put with these characters. And of course some will not be as good as others when you have many different authors writing a series

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Pacific wrote:And finally, yes a real reason for the Heresy taking place. Has anyone else realised that we don't have one yet? And no, I'm not talking about the sword!

It would be nice to have one, yes.

I'm not not sure what happened to the 'Horus being the right ruler of the Imperium' story that has, as far as I know, always been the case. Now the Heresy is happening because he is angry and his brothers are going along for the ride. Not enough has been revealed about the what Horus has said to the other Primarchs yet and Lorgar going along with it seems a bit off too, in my opinion. Why's he even bothering to help Horus when he's got what he wants and showed every one the Chaos Gods, it's all starting to meander a bit.

Horus falling to chaos was supposed to be a by product of the Heresy, not him shaking hands with Daemons and going all Papa Shango. It was supposed to be a gradual corruption that made his ending a little more tragic not the straight out 'ha ha, look at me I am evil now, grr!'

Agreed that Horus' motivations seem strange, especially since he didn't seem overly convinced by the daemons' charade when he was catatonic. "The Emperor fears me and is jealous of me? That's ridiculous and patently false. ... Hmm, now that I think about it, why doesn't the Emperor fear me and be jealous of me? I'm the baddest mofo of them all. That bastard, I'll show him!"

It's kind of like the awful prequel Trilogy. "I want to be a Jedi hero and gain acceptance from the Masters! But wait, I'm going to decapitate some kids now. I love my wife and turn to evil to protect her, but now I'm gonna choke the bitch like Wayne Brady."

As for Lorgar, he hasn't yet really revealed the true face of Chaos to his brothers, since it's pretty horrible to those without an "evolved" understanding of it.

Well, so far as I know about the Traitor primarchs, most of them allied with Horus because they hated the Emperor more than they liked Horus (or even really gave a damn who was leading the Imperium).
Perturabo: Hated Rogal Dorn and Roboute Guilleman and hated the way his legion was treated.
Konrad Curze: Crazy and hated himself and his own legion and all his brothers and wanted to impose his "lesson" on the Imperium.
Lorgar: See my sig.
Angron: Hated the Emperor for not letting him die on his home planet and coercing him into leading his legion.
As for the others:
Mortarion, Magnus, and Fulgrim were coerced/bribed by the Chaos Gods.
Alpharius and Omegon don't really have a good reason beyond simple jealousy.
For my own part, I've been playing since second ed. and to my knowledge, Horus has always rebelled out of a deliberate choice of the Chaos gods over the Emperor.

DIDM wrote: it gives me some personality to put with these characters. And of course some will not be as good as others when you have many different authors writing a series

I don't see that having different aurthors as a problem. Given it allows others to give a brawder scope on things. Also, if you soley tasked one aurthor to write the whole series it would have been much harder on that aurthor. By giving multiple aurthors a chance to write it. It gives a better view in my opinion.

I just started reading this series so far I'm enjoying it. Not the best WH40K books I've read so far but still good non the less.

Kiryu Mk 3 wrote:

DIDM wrote: it gives me some personality to put with these characters. And of course some will not be as good as others when you have many different authors writing a series

I don't see that having different aurthors as a problem. Given it allows others to give a brawder scope on things. Also, if you soley tasked one aurthor to write the whole series it would have been much harder on that aurthor. By giving multiple aurthors a chance to write it. It gives a better view in my opinion.

yes it does

but with some being better than others, and some being light years ahead of others, well you get it right? I said you can expect some to be better than others because they are written by different people, which in my mind makes sense.

Some have been good, some have been terrible. Honestly, it should have been wound up a long time ago. Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

The impression I get from a lot of the fanbase is ERMAGHERD, HERERSEH! with no regard to actual content.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Frecklesonfire wrote:
Top 3 books so far for epic scale would have to be Galaxy in flames ( where we didnt see why torgaddon die, but got an explanation as to how abaddon walks up a staircase .... wtf?)

What do you mean? A description of a sword slashing down at his neck and then the image of his head coming off is told from Loken's POV. What more did you need?

My only problem with that scene is that Loken drops to his knees in shock. Not a very Space Mariney thing to do, and a bit of bad writing on Counter's part.

I don't know, I think it was pretty well done honestly, it kind of showed the enormity of the event. Your closest Mournival brother being killed by your second closest Mournival brother is a big deal and shows that the Astartes aren't so removed from humanity as they would like us to think, 30k Astartes at least.

Disagree. Space Marines are what they are because they are as far removed from humanity as they are.

These guys had hundreds of years of combat experience. Loken is a decorated captain. You might expect shock and loss of focus amongst the Imperial Army, or perhaps even brand new initiates. A veteran of hundreds of battles who has surely seen countless friends die is going to be able to resolve the action at hand, and grieve later.

It's an infusion of too much human emotion to a trans-human character. And really, an excellent example of why it's very, very difficult to write Space Marines well. It requires a writer to enter an entirely alien mindset.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion.

But consider, if you will, how Loken acts after Jubal becomes Samus, or his relationships with Ignace and the other Iterators. Sinderman notes that Astartes form relationships with humans in curious ways, but these relationships clearly effect them. Even how Iacton reflects on the Legion seems to be a fairly human outlook.

I get what you are saying and I would agree with you for current 40k marines, they have had this weakness fought out of them.

deathholydeath wrote:
For my own part, I've been playing since second ed. and to my knowledge, Horus has always rebelled out of a deliberate choice of the Chaos gods over the Emperor.

It was his choice to rebel against the Emperor yeah. The Emperor retired to do his thing and left Horus to do all the hard work, after a little while of going along with this Horus thought 'you know what, I'm doing all the hard work, I should be Emperor'. He asked his bestest buds what they thought and they said 'Yeah, you are doing all the hard work, you should be Emperor' and then the Heresy started.

Edits: stuffs

DeffDred wrote:
Desent of Angels/ Fallen Angels:

Nothing of interest save the origins of Cypher and the problems between the Lion and Luther.

One might say that those two are the very defining points of the Dark Angels during the Heresy.

Also, I'd like to say that Loken and most of the Mournival were incredible vacuous characters. Dan Abnett, bless his soul, writes great Imperial Guard characters, but not so much with Space Marines.

I mean, I've read the books twice now and apart from Abaddon being angry, I can't really recall any defining traits about the other three Mournival characters. They were just gap-fillers, IMO.

And Horus fall was very poorly written.

He should, at the very least, have been described as ambitious and egoistic. And that should have progressed into outright power hunger as the book went on, coupled with growing frustration at the decisions coming from the government on Earth. Instead we got, I don't even know what. He got tricked into it because he thought the Emperor wanted to be a god? Ridiculous.

I agree about the Mournival and Horus's big "NOOOO" scene. The only way I can rationalize it is by thinking very, very poorly of Horus -- and any story that requires I lose respect for characters in order for it to make sense ... well, that's the definition of bad to me.

Kaldor wrote: Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

How would that have been possible to provide characterization for the scores of personalities involved?

Or would we just let Nick Khyme write them all and have everyone be interchangeable?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kaldor wrote: Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

How would that have been possible to provide characterization for the scores of personalities involved?

Or would we just let Nick Khyme write them all and have everyone be interchangeable?

Well, the cast was a lot bigger than it needed to be.

Further, many of the main characters (Primarchs in particular) would have been better served with less 'screen time' rather than more. Their power and mystique would have been amplified if we only caught glimpses of them, and they were mostly revealed to us through the eyes of the characters.

They really should have taken a leaf from the the story of Julius Caesar's rebellion if they wanted a believable Heresy. Political machinations from Horus's enemies on Earth forcing him to take drastic measures, greed and ego convincing him that dealing the Chaos God's was something he could pull off, instead of just being tricked and going all evil.

Bring Sangunious into the story really brings life into the series.

I have got the first six books and I honestly have to say that they haven't grabbed me quiet like the space marine battle books currently out, fall of demnos and Rynns world just to name a few. I'll continue on though because I really do want to read the tech priest revolt novel.

The series has become a cash cow at this point. A product they can just sorta churn out new material for which a loyal customer base will continue to buy.

The quality of the books is pretty average, with some being quite below average.

That said, they will string this along for quite a while. It's a proven money maker, and they have a stable of license fiction authors churning out new material. No need to finish the series any time soon.

Panzerboy26 wrote:
I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

I am inclined to agree on some points... Not about the rewrites because it seems they try to keep retconning to a minimum, and not about the dislike, because I have read them all (Just finished fear to tread) but certainly about crushing the myths. For example, all of the primarchs do really really stupid things. Stupider than fallible ordinary human Matty would do anyway!

And lets have it said right here and now.

The emperor is an absolute fething idiot. How did he master mankind when he has the people skills of a fething housebrick? Some of the decisions he has made have been unbelievably stupid.. almost like he wanted it all to go wrong.

Hey maybe that's it!

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Kaldor wrote: Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

How would that have been possible to provide characterization for the scores of personalities involved?

Or would we just let Nick Khyme write them all and have everyone be interchangeable?

They are already pretty much interchangeable. I mean, so much so that I have, on multiple occasions, had to go back and make sure I was referencing the right actions to the right guys. It isn't because my memory sucks, it's because the characters are quite bland. I can't tell you anything about any of the Thousand Sons (though I can distinguish nearly all the human characters. McNeill is a decent writer of regular people).

But, that's the danger of writing Space Marines. They aren't that interesting or dynamic if they are written properly. A lot of authors just take the easy way out and write human-acting Space Marines because it's, well, easier. The Primarchs are, in some cases, more prone to human like failings and character depth, but aside from Lorgar, they haven't been written that well either. ADB really captured Lorgar's desperate need for validation, and his anguish at being rejected by the Emprah and being the least favored of his brothers. His fall to Chaos made sense. Chaos told him what he needed to hear.

I've read every book released so far (my favorites being Legion, Nemesis, and Fear To Tread), and I haven't found one I hated. Some are better than others, but overall it's a series that I'm having a lot of fun reading, and I'll be sad when it's over.

Love it.

It's good. The Heresy was cool as a "mysterious mythical event" nobody knew about and may not even have happened yet at the same time the HH and the Primarchs became so seminal to the events of 40k, particularly after Index Astartes, it really needed to be done.

Moreover the series gives us something 40k lacks: an epic story with progression. All 40k novels are either small in scale (Guardsman or Space Marine stops x Chaos Lord/Xenos from destroying y planet/sector) and often lack a feeling of stakes. And the main 40k setting will never progress, so these titantic threats will never be resolved. This is more or less the 40k equivalent of Game of Thrones and that is refreshing.

I do fear though that with the series success, GW is going to milk it indefinetly and never get anywhere. We're already seeing the series crawl to a halt in progression and the end is nowhere near in sight. More and more "special edition" books that are more or less novella's about a specific primarch or character and less and less Galaxy in Flames/First Heretic/False Gods where real progress takes place. We need less "average guy/fodder character's perspective on the Heresy" stuff. It was admirable and a good idea to put it in, but it could have been kept solely to 1 Anthology novel.

I disagree with the 4 or 5 number. Really I think 20 would have been a solid number from beginning to end. Keep in mind we're at 22 now and are probably just at the 60% completed point. I would have eliminated Battle for the Abyss, Descent of Angels (combine it all into Fallen Angels), Nemesis (I loved this book, but it wasn't very necessary and could have been about an attempt on Abaddon), Age of Darkness, Outcast Dead, The Primarchs (their psychologies could have been dealt with in individual novels), and Shadows of Treachery.

NIce one mate,they should stick Heresy to Loken's point of view - its much more interesting...btw agree with you completly.....

Hmm love or hate it.... I guess a bit of both realy. I would prefer that they shed some light on what is going on in the big E's head as the realm he created crumbles around him (only read up to Age of Darkness), but apart from that it's pretty good

In my own gaming group the trend seems to be people who have been in the hobby for a long time lap the HH stuff up while those who are more recent converts are not overly fussed by it all.
Just wondering if there’s any pattern to this or its just coincidence.
Me personally I had been waiting for the HH since the since the very early days, the 4 page siege of Terra story Bill King did all those years ago in WD really hooked me on the whole idea.

I Liked it. Though I've played 40k for a while, I never absorbed lore well from say...codexes and rulebooks. To have this universe penned out over the course of dozens of novels, HH and especially the Daniverse of Ravenor/Gaunt/Eisenhorn honestly keeps me in the game...or at least the hobby part.

As to the HH, I appreciate perhaps half of them. The poorer ones are Nemesis, Outcast Dead and Battle for the abyss. I did skip the ones involving the dark angels and space wolves. Flight is perhaps my favorite, followed by Know No Fear.

I'd like to see more on Rogal Dorn, but I suppose its hard to really play him out until close to the end of the series.

I'd like to know more on how Erebus came to be...that is also probably worth a novel. He already seems one foot into the warp when the whole series starts.

Ive enjoyed most of them. Im on Age of Darkness now. My gf wont read them but she LOVES the audio dramas.

I haven't gamed for donkey's years but when I did, Adeptus Titanicus was what really got me into Games Workshop. I dabbled a bit in the original Rogue Trader book (the cover was, for a young lad, "MAAAAAN! WHAT IS THIS COOL THING?") and I fondly recall a friend and I enthusiastically but terribly painting the old plastic Space Marines from that boxset (never bettered - sadly neither was my painting...). Used to get White Dward every month back in the day when it was stuffed with fluff and Paul Bonner drew the most amazing Ork scenes and I actually came runner up in a competition to win Space Hulk 1st Ed., the prize was £5.00 off, so I toddled off the local Games Workshop only to find they had sold out of it. And then I saw this;



and all thoughts of Terminators flew out of my head (and I'm glad they did, a friend bought Space Hulk a few months later and I really didn't like it). I lapped up the old Epic stuff, loved the Heresy mythos and when, having drifted away from such things for nigh on twenty years I found out from a young cousin that they'd written a load of books about the Horus Heresy it was straight onto Amazon and battering the credit card, with late night reading sessions to annoy my wife trying who was trying to sleep whilst I kept the light on into the small hours.

I entirely agree that the series has it's highs and lows. Personally, Nemesis does absolutely nothing for me, it felt like it could have been a 40K book rather than Heresy era for some reason. Anything with pre-Heresy World Eaters floats my boat (I loooove their colours, for one thing) so I'm really looking forward to Betrayer, although the prospect of more Lorgar whinging is a worry, but he does come across as a bit more tough in Butcher's Nails.

The Dark Angels books seemed a bit unfocused to me, maybe it's because I can't get on with The Lion as a character. Legion is superb, although it's a bit disturbing/silly how the Alpha Legion have been elevated into a secret society that would make the Illuminati blush for having their fingers in every pie.

My own personal cannon:

ADB writes gold.

Abnett is good for the wider Imperium outside of Space Marines.

McNeil is hit or miss, but he has some gems.

Gav Thorpe doesn't exist.

Everyone else is case-by-case.

I can admit to some about Dan Abnett. I find Gram McNeil is pretty good in my book. I'm a huge fan of Sandy Mitchel. Gav Thrope isn't too bad. Arron Dembski-Bowden is diffidently a good writer for the series.

Most of my issues stem from the same issues I've had with a lot of Warhammer literature. The universe of 40k is one of the richest and deepest in existence but consistently I see meaningful storylines and characters tossed aside in favor of warporn. I understand. That's what a lot of people want to read. Nothing wrong with that. I love action in books too. But I need more than just that. Dragonmaster, Black Company, Starship Trooper, Empire, Twinblades Trilogy, War of Souls, Beans War ect. ect.

All stories that revolve more or less around war but have more than just war in it. I admit a good literary novel would probably require more humanity than is neccessarily warranted in a 40k novel but without humanity there is no real tragedy. Ender's Game/Bean's War is literally about children grown by the goverment to commit genocide. That's dark as 40k but they do it in a way that is far more appealing and engaging than any Warhamer 40k novel I've ever read. When you start seeing authors that don't use warporn to tell stories is way Warhammer 40k will finally break from it's pattern of better than average - to craptastic and breach the realm of just damn good storytelling.

 calgar 2.5 wrote:
and the Emperor was always trying to get into the webway.

Was he? I do not remember seeing a mention of this before the BL books. If one really exists, I'd appreciate if someone could point me towards it.

Too long for me. I don't have that kind of time

I love the HH series. Most of them have been winners in my book, a few that I could live without (the Dark Angels books, Fulgrim, Flight of the Eisenstein), but overall the same quality writing that ADB, Dan Abnett, and (usually) Graham MacNeil produce.

Most of the complaints seem to be that a major section of the fiction which was once an intentionally obscure and mythical past is now being fleshed out. It's just a new direction to go in, and people who don't like it can continue with a headcanon as if the HH novels didn't exist, and pride themselves in knowing that their personal perspective is closer to that of the average Imperial citizen, who also knows little to nothing true about these events.

I do, however, have one major complaint...
Not enough Night Lords!
(No, there is no such thing as enough. No, I do not see anything wrong with this position)

I hate the series, it deviate to much from the orginale Index Astrates series for me.

Any deviation would be to much for me but I considerd them "set in stone" so to speak.

I like it as a concept, but really it's too long for what it is. A book to set the scene, then one for each legion, then one or two at most for the battle of Terra would have been enough. Half of what's out seems to just be filler with almost enough minor plot points to be worth a book a tenth of the size.

About to start Fear To Tread today, I have my worries as its not one of the big three authors. Just finished The Emperor's Gift, i really liked the first 3/4. The last 1/4 kind of stalled, which could be said about almost every BL book I have read. They all start good and the middle is badass, then I think they get to near their deadline and just toss up whatever to finish them.

"Fear to tread" was kind of boring for me,except for the middle parts(Ullanor,Melchior,Nikaea) and Sanguinius ofc,but "Emperors Gift " is perfect book, from perfect writer (but it wasn't in heresy time,damn it)...
And I' dont agree that mournival was boring (Torgaddon= jester,Abbadon = bully, Aximand = in the middle of everything; and Loken was awesome)

The Horus Heresy is like a soap opera set in the 30K universe.

Who didnt like Horus Rising an F.O.T.E.

BURN THE HERITIC!!

Despite what alot of people say. I liked Out Cast Dead. Granted it didn't effect the story as a whole. But, it showed another human face. Also, the Emperor played a big part in it. It showed his character and personality. I really found myself liking the Emperor as a man. He's got personality and even a sense of humor. 'Is this real?' 'Your asking me in a dream if this is real?". Its a story about how important a single life can be in a universe of gods and semi gods. Kai is a neat character. And Bamboo ta kai being a thunder warrior raises its own questions and hopefully we'll see what he does when Horus lays siege to Terra.

I like most of them alot but found the Fulgrim story in The Primarchs to be way out of line with most other black libuary stuff. The pair of anguish and its ilk just made me think of teenage slash fiction and that perhaps Graham McNeill needs to lay of the torture porn for a while

Homoerotic Space Marines are a staple in Graham McNeil's writing.

Just started to re-read Galaxy in Flames. I was surprised I missed how big the final battle was. I thought it was 50 marines left.

Love it to death hope they come out with more blood angel stuff!

I want a Horus Heresy Encyclopaedia

I hate doing all that multi quote stuff so...

In reply to Horus choosing to turn to chaos, it's simply not true at all. He was wounded and was brought to a warrior lodge to heal on Davin and all this was before he was rewarded by the Emperor, so in a way he was never officially inducted as Warmaster.

In that lodge he was possessed, it's the first fluff written for the Horus Heresy in the realms of Chaos Slaves to Darkness books. It's old and obscure but that was it back then.

The original Hersey fluff, page 240 Realms of Chaos Slaves to Darkness Warhammer 40k First Edition.

I love it. It's currently my favourite series. Sure, there are novels in the series that I don't like. Some that I can't stand, but on the whole, I can't wait for each new book. Every time I sit down with a new HH novel, I feel almost like I did while reading the Discworld novels. (Note the almost. Nothing compares to Discworld.)

There are a few novels they could have easily cut from the series, though. The Dark Angels ones in particular. Boring and completely unrelated. Prospero Burning was just annoying because of those bastard puppiedogs. Shadows of Treachery has moments of shiny, but is overall pretty useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General_Erko wrote:
I hate doing all that multi quote stuff so...

In reply to Horus choosing to turn to chaos, it's simply not true at all. He was wounded and was brought to a warrior lodge to heal on Davin and all this was before he was rewarded by the Emperor, so in a way he was never officially inducted as Warmaster.

What? I distinctly remember reading "The warmaster is dead!" as the rumor spreads through the civilian population.

I would have handled the book series as:

1.) Horus Rising
2.) False Gods
3.) Galaxy in Flames
4.) Flight of the Eisenstein
5.) Fulgrim
6.) First Heretic
7.) Prospero Burns
8.) Know No Fear
9.) Fear to Tread
10.) Mechanicum
11.) A large group of short stories in one anthology.
12.) Prelude to Terra book
13.) A final Battle of Terra book
14.) Fallen Angels (that deals with Luther's betrayal and his battle against the Lion)

This would avoid the current state of the franchise that we're seeing, avoid repetition, and at least keep some kind of mythical status to it.

Where is A Thousand Sons.

Harriticus wrote:

This would avoid the current state of the franchise that we're seeing, avoid repetition, and at least keep some kind of mythical status to it.

It would definitely avoid the current status of the series, which is a cash cow for Games Workshop, lol.

I keep my expectations of Black Library books very low, which most of the time avoids disappointment. Let's face it, if these authors were A list they wouldn't be writing for BL, they would be creating their own stuff. I listen to the audiobooks because I love the 40k universe, not because they're particularly well written..

The only BL book that has blown me away as a novel was Space Marine by Ian Watson. I've read that about 8 times and I still love it. Also anything by Jack Yeovil is brilliant too. ADB is completely overrated, really enjoyed the first of the Night Lords trilogy but the rest of the stuff has been pretty mediocre to downright dull.

Back to the Horus Heresy, it really depends on the author. Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett are pretty safe bets [although McNeill is really annoying me with his portrayal of Fulgrim & the Emperor's Children in Angel Exterminatus] , anyone else is hit or mostly miss. James Swallow is really growing on me.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Where is A Thousand Sons.

imo, too many books for each legion is a root of the franchises problem. The events of Magnus and the Burning of Prospero should have been dealt with in 1 longer ~600-700 page book, not to say both books weren't good.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I keep my expectations of Black Library books very low, which most of the time avoids disappointment. Let's face it, if these authors were A list they wouldn't be writing for BL, they would be creating their own stuff. I listen to the audiobooks because I love the 40k universe, not because they're particularly well written..

The only BL book that has blown me away as a novel was Space Marine by Ian Watson. I've read that about 8 times and I still love it. Also anything by Jack Yeovil is brilliant too. ADB is completely overrated, really enjoyed the first of the Night Lords trilogy but the rest of the stuff has been pretty mediocre to downright dull.

Back to the Horus Heresy, it really depends on the author. Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett are pretty safe bets [although McNeill is really annoying me with his portrayal of Fulgrim & the Emperor's Children in Angel Exterminatus] , anyone else is hit or mostly miss. James Swallow is really growing on me.

No accounting for taste, I suppose, since Ian Watson's second and third Inquisition War books are literally the worst books I've ever read. The content is as terrible as anything by Ward or Gotto, plus being so meandering and unnecessarily verbose that my eyes glazed over during some of the expositional paragraphs.

Dan Abnett is great at writing normal humans, be they Inquisitors or Guard. His Space Marines are consistently terrible. Graham McNeill is very hit (Storm of Iron) or miss (Outcast Dead). Gav Thorpe is probably the worst active author they currently have, since all he writes is emo bullcrap.

 Harriticus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Where is A Thousand Sons.

imo, too many books for each legion is a root of the franchises problem. The events of Magnus and the Burning of Prospero should have been dealt with in 1 longer ~600 page book, not to say both books weren't good.

That's pretty harsh. A Thousand Sons was a decent book. It relates to the abolishment of the librarians. I was always kinda curious about them. Not to mention. It hints at the origin of the Blood Ravens. I really enjoyed the book. There were a few things I didn't like about fulgrim. Mainly the damn cover art. It looked like Ferrous Mann's had a giant wrench.

I don't see what's harsh about his statement. That whole story probably would have been better told in one book, or at least by one author. That way we wouldn't have the inconsistencies of Russ's characterizations. Is he the Russell Crowe-esque belligerent donkey-cave of ATS? Or is he the somehow even more ridiculous wet-leopard-growling thinking man's barbarian of PB?

I am pretty sure his persona in A Thousand Sons is partly an act.

Since it translates directly into his and his Legion's actions, that point is largely academic, is it not?

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's only pretending to be a duck?

Oh I agree, to an extent.

While he is certainly more cunning and intelligent than he comes across at first glance, IMO he is ultimately, a hypocritical savage and a tool.

You guys should stop writing as if your personal opinions are objective facts. Also, you should agree that it doesn't matter if your opinions differ on which books are good or bad.

Nothing in this whole thread has been anything but subjective opinion, but almost all of it is stated in a hyperbolic way that make it seem like it's a universal constant, and that not agreeing makes with you makes the reader somehow wrong.

I agree with almost nothing that has been said in this thread, but I'm cool with that, because I know it doesn't matter if we enjoyed the same books. So what if you didn't enjoy The Outcast Dead as much as I did? I don't like LOTR either, even if I've read that brick five times. You like Prospero Burns? Okay, I found that it was a Tome of Suck.

Writing style is a matter of preference, and is even subject to trends. If LOTR had been written today, I'm pretty sure not a single publisher would have bothered to read beyond the first page before discarding it. I have a buddy who will read epic poems, but I haven't gotten him to even open a single "modern" novel. Another buddy of mine loves Jasper Fordd, but he doesn't get whats so funny about discworld.

All that is OKAY, because like the butt, opinion is divided. It would be pointless for me to try and convince my friend that the Edda is boring. Not only because it's his opinion that it isn't, but at the same time, the more I argue that it is boring, the less so he'll think it is.(That's just how us humans are built.) So all you guys are doing when arguing with each other on matters of personal preference, is arguing for the sake of arguing, and then getting worked up about it.

All you can realistically hope to achieve in a discussion like this is letting others know what your opinion is.

Nothing in this whole thread has been anything but subjective opinion

Welcome to the internet.

I don't have opinions.

Anything I say becomes immutable fact, if it wasn't already.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:
You guys should stop writing as if your personal opinions are objective facts. Also, you should agree that it doesn't matter if your opinions differ on which books are good or bad.

Nothing in this whole thread has been anything but subjective opinion, but almost all of it is stated in a hyperbolic way that make it seem like it's a universal constant, and that not agreeing makes with you makes the reader somehow wrong.

I agree with almost nothing that has been said in this thread, but I'm cool with that, because I know it doesn't matter if we enjoyed the same books. So what if you didn't enjoy The Outcast Dead as much as I did? I don't like LOTR either, even if I've read that brick five times. You like Prospero Burns? Okay, I found that it was a Tome of Suck.

Writing style is a matter of preference, and is even subject to trends. If LOTR had been written today, I'm pretty sure not a single publisher would have bothered to read beyond the first page before discarding it. I have a buddy who will read epic poems, but I haven't gotten him to even open a single "modern" novel. Another buddy of mine loves Jasper Fordd, but he doesn't get whats so funny about discworld.

All that is OKAY, because like the butt, opinion is divided. It would be pointless for me to try and convince my friend that the Edda is boring. Not only because it's his opinion that it isn't, but at the same time, the more I argue that it is boring, the less so he'll think it is.(That's just how us humans are built.) So all you guys are doing when arguing with each other on matters of personal preference, is arguing for the sake of arguing, and then getting worked up about it.

All you can realistically hope to achieve in a discussion like this is letting others know what your opinion is.

Agree,LOTR was (for me) very slow paced, but when I was kid it was only worthy fantasy book and it laid foundation for the fantasy world which comes later - so it playes special role in my life...But today I wouldn't read it...
Btw, agree that Prospero Burns was very boring (and I love my wolves),but you have to understand that negative comments are coming from bitter kids, and not from objective dudes...

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I don't have opinions.

Anything I say becomes immutable fact, if it wasn't already.

Its already past 11.11. 12 / 11.11.00 where you live right? The season of. .. .. begun...

I hate the horus heresy for expanding on something that i feel should be kept as a distant myth.

To me there is nothing mystic or grand about the setting now that everything gets answers. (Note that i havent read them because of this).

Too me this takes away from the horus heresy, the fact that the primarchs become demi-gods of battle and explaining in detail the primarchs.

The primarchs too me would be like regular if a bit better chapter masters and the main draw would be purely symbolic as the headas of the emperors grand army and the myths of the incident is what made them seem so great now.

For the year 2020 i predict Horus Heresy 92, The Battle Lavatory 8.
Buy the story of Brothercaptain Honorius's epic struggle with a chaos infested burrito, which will surely determine the outcome of the Horus Heresy.

 KingDeath wrote:
For the year 2020 i predict Horus Heresy 92, The Battle Lavatory 8.
Buy the story of Brothercaptain Honorius's epic struggle with a chaos infested burrito, which will surely determine the outcome of the Horus Heresy.

Your comment would be funny if it wasn't bound to happen....

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I keep my expectations of Black Library books very low, which most of the time avoids disappointment. Let's face it, if these authors were A list they wouldn't be writing for BL, they would be creating their own stuff. I listen to the audiobooks because I love the 40k universe, not because they're particularly well written..

The only BL book that has blown me away as a novel was Space Marine by Ian Watson. I've read that about 8 times and I still love it. Also anything by Jack Yeovil is brilliant too. ADB is completely overrated, really enjoyed the first of the Night Lords trilogy but the rest of the stuff has been pretty mediocre to downright dull.

Back to the Horus Heresy, it really depends on the author. Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett are pretty safe bets [although McNeill is really annoying me with his portrayal of Fulgrim & the Emperor's Children in Angel Exterminatus] , anyone else is hit or mostly miss. James Swallow is really growing on me.

Look around, not all of them write just for BL. Gav Thorpe alone has written a fantasy series outside of BL. Dan Abnett has written for Dr Who, need I go on?

 Azza007 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I keep my expectations of Black Library books very low, which most of the time avoids disappointment. Let's face it, if these authors were A list they wouldn't be writing for BL, they would be creating their own stuff. I listen to the audiobooks because I love the 40k universe, not because they're particularly well written..

The only BL book that has blown me away as a novel was Space Marine by Ian Watson. I've read that about 8 times and I still love it. Also anything by Jack Yeovil is brilliant too. ADB is completely overrated, really enjoyed the first of the Night Lords trilogy but the rest of the stuff has been pretty mediocre to downright dull.

Back to the Horus Heresy, it really depends on the author. Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett are pretty safe bets [although McNeill is really annoying me with his portrayal of Fulgrim & the Emperor's Children in Angel Exterminatus] , anyone else is hit or mostly miss. James Swallow is really growing on me.

Look around, not all of them write just for BL. Gav Thorpe alone has written a fantasy series outside of BL. Dan Abnett has written for Dr Who, need I go on?

Abnett also wrote a very good Sci.Fi thriller called Embedded. Highly recommended.

 Shlazaor wrote:
consistently I see meaningful storylines and characters tossed aside in favor of warporn. I understand. That's what a lot of people want to read. Nothing wrong with that. I love action in books too. But I need more than just that

I've come to the conclusion that it's the authors, not the readers that are the problem. Writing good characters and storylines is hard. Writing meaningless bolter-porn is easy.

I like most of the HH series, some books are boring and pointless, the dan abnett books are my favorite, legion is my fav so far but still have a few to read

Just started re-reading Horus Rising. Excellent.

 Omegus wrote:
I don't see what's harsh about his statement. That whole story probably would have been better told in one book, or at least by one author. That way we wouldn't have the inconsistencies of Russ's characterizations. Is he the Russell Crowe-esque belligerent donkey-cave of ATS? Or is he the somehow even more ridiculous wet-leopard-growling thinking man's barbarian of PB?

I liked that the two different books are written in two different styles with two very different biases. I'd say it's a tribute to Graham McNeill's writing that so many people renewed their loathing for the Wolves (and, by the way, have started to hate the Emperor's Children). Abnett's literary crutches are kind of annoying, but that's the case in everything he's ever written.

I already liked the Wolves and embraced their deep denial, so I like both books.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:
For the year 2020 i predict Horus Heresy 92, The Battle Lavatory 8.
Buy the story of Brothercaptain Honorius's epic struggle with a chaos infested burrito, which will surely determine the outcome of the Horus Heresy.

Your comment would be funny if it wasn't bound to happen....

I doubt Brother Captain Honorious problem is being bound where a chaos infested burrito is concerned. Quite the opposite, I suspect.

I reread Battle for the Abyss recently. It wasn't that bad. It just didn't add very much to the arc other giving a bit more flesh and bones to the World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

Fotherington-Thomas wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:
For the year 2020 i predict Horus Heresy 92, The Battle Lavatory 8.
Buy the story of Brothercaptain Honorius's epic struggle with a chaos infested burrito, which will surely determine the outcome of the Horus Heresy.

Your comment would be funny if it wasn't bound to happen....

I doubt Brother Captain Honorious problem is being bound where a chaos infested burrito is concerned. Quite the opposite, I suspect.

I reread Battle for the Abyss recently. It wasn't that bad. It just didn't add very much to the arc other giving a bit more flesh and bones to the World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

I quite liked Battle for the Abyss. But I tend to enjoy space-navy stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
And I' dont agree that mournival was boring (Torgaddon= jester,Abbadon = bully, Aximand = in the middle of everything; and Loken was awesome)

Well, that's kinda the point. You shouldn't be able to summarise people in a single world. Real people are complicated, and the Mournival reads like the author just wanted a collection of totally flat, single aspect characters. Why was Abaddon a bully? Did he care about the men under his command? Why would Torgaddon constantly make jokes about everything? Where were the other facets of their personalities? And Loken, ugh, the most boring of them all. At least the others had defining characteristics. Loken was a totally flat, boring, blank canvas.

Seems like a bit of a contradiction. "You shouldn't be able to just sum up their personalities in one word." "Loken is the worst of the bunch, you can't sum him up in one word."

Normal human beings don't have defining characteristics, and are generally blank canvases with multiple personality quirks sprinkled on, and I think that was intended for Loken. Aside from being "Mr. Straight up and down", he, above all the others in the Mournival, was the most human, and it was in fact his humanity that allowed him to not get caught up in the fervor that swept the Astartes into the Horus Heresy. I would say that that is certainly his defining characteristic, and it's also why he's the most interesting character in the Heresy. He's the character that allows you to see into the Universe.

That's the beauty of it. They aren't people. They're Astartes. The Emperor had the brilliant plan of taking pre-adolescents and turning them into demigods. They never really emotionally develop beyond being about 12 years old because they are forcefully separated from anyone and everyone who's grown up to live a normal life and all they know are the previous generation of emotionally stunted transhumans.

Some are pretty good, a lot of them are bad. A lot of their writers can't really write dialogue at all. I find Dan Abnett seems to be more capable than any of the others.

That and the audiobook narration is hilariously awful.

 MrScience wrote:
Some are pretty good, a lot of them are bad. A lot of their writers can't really write dialogue at all. I find Dan Abnett seems to be more capable than any of the others.

That and the audiobook narration is hilariously awful.

C'mon man, Martyn Ellis was brilliant and that guy who narrated "Outcast dead" is also good...

I really like the audio dramas. They're a he'll of a lot more enjoyable then watching Ultramarine. That movie was terrible. Not to mention full of more holes and nonsense then listening to political ads.

It was actually rather shocking how bad Ultramarines was.

I mean, I get that they had a limited run time they could work with and the limitation of the medium, but the plot was absolutely nonsensical.

Especially given that they had actual, legitimate voice talent, you'd think they would have created at least a C Level product, lol.

 SgtSixkilla wrote:

 Azza007 wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
I keep my expectations of Black Library books very low, which most of the time avoids disappointment. Let's face it, if these authors were A list they wouldn't be writing for BL, they would be creating their own stuff. I listen to the audiobooks because I love the 40k universe, not because they're particularly well written..

The only BL book that has blown me away as a novel was Space Marine by Ian Watson. I've read that about 8 times and I still love it. Also anything by Jack Yeovil is brilliant too. ADB is completely overrated, really enjoyed the first of the Night Lords trilogy but the rest of the stuff has been pretty mediocre to downright dull.

Back to the Horus Heresy, it really depends on the author. Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett are pretty safe bets [although McNeill is really annoying me with his portrayal of Fulgrim & the Emperor's Children in Angel Exterminatus] , anyone else is hit or mostly miss. James Swallow is really growing on me.

Look around, not all of them write just for BL. Gav Thorpe alone has written a fantasy series outside of BL. Dan Abnett has written for Dr Who, need I go on?

Abnett also wrote a very good Sci.Fi thriller called Embedded. Highly recommended.

Agreed, it was an excellent book! I'm also glad to help to support a writer for their own projects, as I can't imagine them getting much in the way of royalties from BL. Dan is also known for his work on writing for 2000AD, so I'm glad BL has chosen him for the forthcoming comic book (books?) they are releasing.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 MrScience wrote:
Some are pretty good, a lot of them are bad. A lot of their writers can't really write dialogue at all. I find Dan Abnett seems to be more capable than any of the others.

That and the audiobook narration is hilariously awful.

C'mon man, Martyn Ellis was brilliant and that guy who narrated "Outcast dead" is also good...

A lot of it is just way too cheesy for me.

Okay, first off let me say that overall I'm very impressed with the Horus Heresy series of books - Granted some writers are better than others but for a multi book multi author series it carries along fairly well...

My one nitpick with the series is as follows;

In my own personal interpretation of the time line laid down prior to 'The Outcast Dead' - It would seem that after Nikea but prior to Istvaan Magnus becomes aware of Horus's impending treachery he attempts to warn the Emperor, this warning is dismissed as being an excuse to have the Nikea edict revoked. The Space Wolves are dispatched to Prospero and are therefore unavailable to join the other seven legions sent to put down Horus's fledgling Rebellion on Istvaan.

However in 'The Outcast Dead' it seems (to me at least) that the Warning from Magnus arrives after the dropsite massacre and only then are the Space Wolves dispatched to Prospero. Now in the previous books Leman Russ is referred to several times as the Emperor's executioner, the Space Wolves the legion who will do what other legions will not. So if the revised time line is indeed the current canon time line. Why aren't the Space Wolves en route with the other Seven Legions to Istvaan. Secondly why would the Emperor be upset with Magnus for trying to warn him to Horus's betrayal?

Furthermore if 'The Outcast Dead' is right why in 'Fear To Tread' do the Space Wolves dispatched to watch over Sanguinius fail to mention that the Word Bearers are traitors and that Sanguinius probably doesn't want to be taking orders from Horus...

Did anyone else notice this or is my understanding of the timeline distorted?

 Corso Vitt wrote:
Okay, first off let me say that overall I'm very impressed with the Horus Heresy series of books - Granted some writers are better than others but for a multi book multi author series it carries along fairly well...

My one nitpick with the series is as follows;

In my own personal interpretation of the time line laid down prior to 'The Outcast Dead' - It would seem that after Nikea but prior to Istvaan Magnus becomes aware of Horus's impending treachery he attempts to warn the Emperor, this warning is dismissed as being an excuse to have the Nikea edict revoked. The Space Wolves are dispatched to Prospero and are therefore unavailable to join the other seven legions sent to put down Horus's fledgling Rebellion on Istvaan.

However in 'The Outcast Dead' it seems (to me at least) that the Warning from Magnus arrives after the dropsite massacre and only then are the Space Wolves dispatched to Prospero. Now in the previous books Leman Russ is referred to several times as the Emperor's executioner, the Space Wolves the legion who will do what other legions will not. So if the revised time line is indeed the current canon time line. Why aren't the Space Wolves en route with the other Seven Legions to Istvaan. Secondly why would the Emperor be upset with Magnus for trying to warn him to Horus's betrayal?

Furthermore if 'The Outcast Dead' is right why in 'Fear To Tread' do the Space Wolves dispatched to watch over Sanguinius fail to mention that the Word Bearers are traitors and that Sanguinius probably doesn't want to be taking orders from Horus...

Did anyone else notice this or is my understanding of the timeline distorted?

I think it could be explained as a misunderstanding of the populace? I mean news could travel slowly, or quickly depending on how severe the news is? Messages through the warp could also be delayed, or chaosy stuff. I dunno, just throwing ideas out there.

Outcast Dead is seriously screwed up, and the timeline being completely out of whack is only a part of it.

 Omegus wrote:
Outcast Dead is seriously screwed up, and the timeline being completely out of whack is only a part of it.

Spoiler:

An unarmed and unarmored World Eater punches a Custodian in full battle gear to death. Granted that Custodian was established as having damaged reflexes, but if he is so inept, why is he guarding the absolute highest security prison in the Imperium? That same World Eater then has trouble dealing with a human swordsman. Hrm.

The Thunder Warriors still live! Which would be a tantalizing tidbit if we didn't know that they are completely irrelevant in the 41st millennium. I mean, best case scenario they were able to use the geneseed to create a new chapter of Thunder Marines, and are either secretly serving the Imperium or are renegades. Which begs the question that if the Thunder Warriors could be converted to Space Marines so easily, why didn't the Emperor just do that instead of betraying them? The old excuse that the Thunder Warriors were too savage doesn't work, since he tolerated the likes of World Eaters and Night Lords (the latter of whom really really enjoyed skinning people). There's also the implication that someone is better than the Emperor at gene manipulation, a point that was also very irritating in Deliverance Lost.

Bah, I just disregard these two books for my personal interpretation of events. Deliverance Lost can be salvaged if the Alpha Legion is removed from the equation, which makes the story's events make more sense and jive more with the old Index Astartes. It's much more palatable if a non-scholarly primarch and a couple of humans exceed the Emperor in Marine creation in just a few months when the drawback is rampant mutation, without having an improbable impostor squirt chaos juice into it.

I can see some of your points here. But, that doesn't seem to take away from the books or series as a whole for me. I do find it kinda odd though that Corax would blame himself before looking into wither or not there was foul play. The books are still great.