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Some have been good, some have been terrible. Honestly, it should have been wound up a long time ago. Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

The impression I get from a lot of the fanbase is ERMAGHERD, HERERSEH! with no regard to actual content.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Frecklesonfire wrote:
Top 3 books so far for epic scale would have to be Galaxy in flames ( where we didnt see why torgaddon die, but got an explanation as to how abaddon walks up a staircase .... wtf?)

What do you mean? A description of a sword slashing down at his neck and then the image of his head coming off is told from Loken's POV. What more did you need?

My only problem with that scene is that Loken drops to his knees in shock. Not a very Space Mariney thing to do, and a bit of bad writing on Counter's part.

I don't know, I think it was pretty well done honestly, it kind of showed the enormity of the event. Your closest Mournival brother being killed by your second closest Mournival brother is a big deal and shows that the Astartes aren't so removed from humanity as they would like us to think, 30k Astartes at least.

Disagree. Space Marines are what they are because they are as far removed from humanity as they are.

These guys had hundreds of years of combat experience. Loken is a decorated captain. You might expect shock and loss of focus amongst the Imperial Army, or perhaps even brand new initiates. A veteran of hundreds of battles who has surely seen countless friends die is going to be able to resolve the action at hand, and grieve later.

It's an infusion of too much human emotion to a trans-human character. And really, an excellent example of why it's very, very difficult to write Space Marines well. It requires a writer to enter an entirely alien mindset.

You are obviously entitled to your opinion.

But consider, if you will, how Loken acts after Jubal becomes Samus, or his relationships with Ignace and the other Iterators. Sinderman notes that Astartes form relationships with humans in curious ways, but these relationships clearly effect them. Even how Iacton reflects on the Legion seems to be a fairly human outlook.

I get what you are saying and I would agree with you for current 40k marines, they have had this weakness fought out of them.

deathholydeath wrote:
For my own part, I've been playing since second ed. and to my knowledge, Horus has always rebelled out of a deliberate choice of the Chaos gods over the Emperor.

It was his choice to rebel against the Emperor yeah. The Emperor retired to do his thing and left Horus to do all the hard work, after a little while of going along with this Horus thought 'you know what, I'm doing all the hard work, I should be Emperor'. He asked his bestest buds what they thought and they said 'Yeah, you are doing all the hard work, you should be Emperor' and then the Heresy started.

Edits: stuffs

DeffDred wrote:
Desent of Angels/ Fallen Angels:

Nothing of interest save the origins of Cypher and the problems between the Lion and Luther.

One might say that those two are the very defining points of the Dark Angels during the Heresy.

Also, I'd like to say that Loken and most of the Mournival were incredible vacuous characters. Dan Abnett, bless his soul, writes great Imperial Guard characters, but not so much with Space Marines.

I mean, I've read the books twice now and apart from Abaddon being angry, I can't really recall any defining traits about the other three Mournival characters. They were just gap-fillers, IMO.

And Horus fall was very poorly written.

He should, at the very least, have been described as ambitious and egoistic. And that should have progressed into outright power hunger as the book went on, coupled with growing frustration at the decisions coming from the government on Earth. Instead we got, I don't even know what. He got tricked into it because he thought the Emperor wanted to be a god? Ridiculous.

I agree about the Mournival and Horus's big "NOOOO" scene. The only way I can rationalize it is by thinking very, very poorly of Horus -- and any story that requires I lose respect for characters in order for it to make sense ... well, that's the definition of bad to me.

Kaldor wrote: Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

How would that have been possible to provide characterization for the scores of personalities involved?

Or would we just let Nick Khyme write them all and have everyone be interchangeable?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kaldor wrote: Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

How would that have been possible to provide characterization for the scores of personalities involved?

Or would we just let Nick Khyme write them all and have everyone be interchangeable?

Well, the cast was a lot bigger than it needed to be.

Further, many of the main characters (Primarchs in particular) would have been better served with less 'screen time' rather than more. Their power and mystique would have been amplified if we only caught glimpses of them, and they were mostly revealed to us through the eyes of the characters.

They really should have taken a leaf from the the story of Julius Caesar's rebellion if they wanted a believable Heresy. Political machinations from Horus's enemies on Earth forcing him to take drastic measures, greed and ego convincing him that dealing the Chaos God's was something he could pull off, instead of just being tricked and going all evil.

Bring Sangunious into the story really brings life into the series.

I have got the first six books and I honestly have to say that they haven't grabbed me quiet like the space marine battle books currently out, fall of demnos and Rynns world just to name a few. I'll continue on though because I really do want to read the tech priest revolt novel.

The series has become a cash cow at this point. A product they can just sorta churn out new material for which a loyal customer base will continue to buy.

The quality of the books is pretty average, with some being quite below average.

That said, they will string this along for quite a while. It's a proven money maker, and they have a stable of license fiction authors churning out new material. No need to finish the series any time soon.

Panzerboy26 wrote:
I honestly dislike them in a very large way. They are re-writing very large parts of the fluff that, before those books, I held to be sacrosanct.

In general, I would say that my biggest complaint about the books is that they are shining a spot light into the psyches, back stories, personalities, and personal successes/failings of both the Emperor and all of the Primarchs. I think that this destroys some of what I liked about the fluff, how everything was so distant, so baroque, the Primarchs were myths and legends, and the Emperor basically a god that people squabbled over their interpretations of. By explaining everything soooo thoroughly, they're taking all of that cool, musty, decaying, paradise lost feel of the setting... and making it all seem so very... mundane, defined, concrete... which captures my imagination far less effectively.

I'm aware that I'm in the minority, but that's how I feel about them.

I am inclined to agree on some points... Not about the rewrites because it seems they try to keep retconning to a minimum, and not about the dislike, because I have read them all (Just finished fear to tread) but certainly about crushing the myths. For example, all of the primarchs do really really stupid things. Stupider than fallible ordinary human Matty would do anyway!

And lets have it said right here and now.

The emperor is an absolute fething idiot. How did he master mankind when he has the people skills of a fething housebrick? Some of the decisions he has made have been unbelievably stupid.. almost like he wanted it all to go wrong.

Hey maybe that's it!

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Kaldor wrote: Four or five decent sized novels should have been able to tell the story from start to finish.

How would that have been possible to provide characterization for the scores of personalities involved?

Or would we just let Nick Khyme write them all and have everyone be interchangeable?

They are already pretty much interchangeable. I mean, so much so that I have, on multiple occasions, had to go back and make sure I was referencing the right actions to the right guys. It isn't because my memory sucks, it's because the characters are quite bland. I can't tell you anything about any of the Thousand Sons (though I can distinguish nearly all the human characters. McNeill is a decent writer of regular people).

But, that's the danger of writing Space Marines. They aren't that interesting or dynamic if they are written properly. A lot of authors just take the easy way out and write human-acting Space Marines because it's, well, easier. The Primarchs are, in some cases, more prone to human like failings and character depth, but aside from Lorgar, they haven't been written that well either. ADB really captured Lorgar's desperate need for validation, and his anguish at being rejected by the Emprah and being the least favored of his brothers. His fall to Chaos made sense. Chaos told him what he needed to hear.

I've read every book released so far (my favorites being Legion, Nemesis, and Fear To Tread), and I haven't found one I hated. Some are better than others, but overall it's a series that I'm having a lot of fun reading, and I'll be sad when it's over.

Love it.

It's good. The Heresy was cool as a "mysterious mythical event" nobody knew about and may not even have happened yet at the same time the HH and the Primarchs became so seminal to the events of 40k, particularly after Index Astartes, it really needed to be done.

Moreover the series gives us something 40k lacks: an epic story with progression. All 40k novels are either small in scale (Guardsman or Space Marine stops x Chaos Lord/Xenos from destroying y planet/sector) and often lack a feeling of stakes. And the main 40k setting will never progress, so these titantic threats will never be resolved. This is more or less the 40k equivalent of Game of Thrones and that is refreshing.

I do fear though that with the series success, GW is going to milk it indefinetly and never get anywhere. We're already seeing the series crawl to a halt in progression and the end is nowhere near in sight. More and more "special edition" books that are more or less novella's about a specific primarch or character and less and less Galaxy in Flames/First Heretic/False Gods where real progress takes place. We need less "average guy/fodder character's perspective on the Heresy" stuff. It was admirable and a good idea to put it in, but it could have been kept solely to 1 Anthology novel.

I disagree with the 4 or 5 number. Really I think 20 would have been a solid number from beginning to end. Keep in mind we're at 22 now and are probably just at the 60% completed point. I would have eliminated Battle for the Abyss, Descent of Angels (combine it all into Fallen Angels), Nemesis (I loved this book, but it wasn't very necessary and could have been about an attempt on Abaddon), Age of Darkness, Outcast Dead, The Primarchs (their psychologies could have been dealt with in individual novels), and Shadows of Treachery.

NIce one mate,they should stick Heresy to Loken's point of view - its much more interesting...btw agree with you completly.....

Hmm love or hate it.... I guess a bit of both realy. I would prefer that they shed some light on what is going on in the big E's head as the realm he created crumbles around him (only read up to Age of Darkness), but apart from that it's pretty good

In my own gaming group the trend seems to be people who have been in the hobby for a long time lap the HH stuff up while those who are more recent converts are not overly fussed by it all.
Just wondering if there’s any pattern to this or its just coincidence.
Me personally I had been waiting for the HH since the since the very early days, the 4 page siege of Terra story Bill King did all those years ago in WD really hooked me on the whole idea.

I Liked it. Though I've played 40k for a while, I never absorbed lore well from say...codexes and rulebooks. To have this universe penned out over the course of dozens of novels, HH and especially the Daniverse of Ravenor/Gaunt/Eisenhorn honestly keeps me in the game...or at least the hobby part.

As to the HH, I appreciate perhaps half of them. The poorer ones are Nemesis, Outcast Dead and Battle for the abyss. I did skip the ones involving the dark angels and space wolves. Flight is perhaps my favorite, followed by Know No Fear.

I'd like to see more on Rogal Dorn, but I suppose its hard to really play him out until close to the end of the series.

I'd like to know more on how Erebus came to be...that is also probably worth a novel. He already seems one foot into the warp when the whole series starts.

Ive enjoyed most of them. Im on Age of Darkness now. My gf wont read them but she LOVES the audio dramas.

I haven't gamed for donkey's years but when I did, Adeptus Titanicus was what really got me into Games Workshop. I dabbled a bit in the original Rogue Trader book (the cover was, for a young lad, "MAAAAAN! WHAT IS THIS COOL THING?") and I fondly recall a friend and I enthusiastically but terribly painting the old plastic Space Marines from that boxset (never bettered - sadly neither was my painting...). Used to get White Dward every month back in the day when it was stuffed with fluff and Paul Bonner drew the most amazing Ork scenes and I actually came runner up in a competition to win Space Hulk 1st Ed., the prize was £5.00 off, so I toddled off the local Games Workshop only to find they had sold out of it. And then I saw this;



and all thoughts of Terminators flew out of my head (and I'm glad they did, a friend bought Space Hulk a few months later and I really didn't like it). I lapped up the old Epic stuff, loved the Heresy mythos and when, having drifted away from such things for nigh on twenty years I found out from a young cousin that they'd written a load of books about the Horus Heresy it was straight onto Amazon and battering the credit card, with late night reading sessions to annoy my wife trying who was trying to sleep whilst I kept the light on into the small hours.

I entirely agree that the series has it's highs and lows. Personally, Nemesis does absolutely nothing for me, it felt like it could have been a 40K book rather than Heresy era for some reason. Anything with pre-Heresy World Eaters floats my boat (I loooove their colours, for one thing) so I'm really looking forward to Betrayer, although the prospect of more Lorgar whinging is a worry, but he does come across as a bit more tough in Butcher's Nails.

The Dark Angels books seemed a bit unfocused to me, maybe it's because I can't get on with The Lion as a character. Legion is superb, although it's a bit disturbing/silly how the Alpha Legion have been elevated into a secret society that would make the Illuminati blush for having their fingers in every pie.

My own personal cannon:

ADB writes gold.

Abnett is good for the wider Imperium outside of Space Marines.

McNeil is hit or miss, but he has some gems.

Gav Thorpe doesn't exist.

Everyone else is case-by-case.

I can admit to some about Dan Abnett. I find Gram McNeil is pretty good in my book. I'm a huge fan of Sandy Mitchel. Gav Thrope isn't too bad. Arron Dembski-Bowden is diffidently a good writer for the series.

Most of my issues stem from the same issues I've had with a lot of Warhammer literature. The universe of 40k is one of the richest and deepest in existence but consistently I see meaningful storylines and characters tossed aside in favor of warporn. I understand. That's what a lot of people want to read. Nothing wrong with that. I love action in books too. But I need more than just that. Dragonmaster, Black Company, Starship Trooper, Empire, Twinblades Trilogy, War of Souls, Beans War ect. ect.

All stories that revolve more or less around war but have more than just war in it. I admit a good literary novel would probably require more humanity than is neccessarily warranted in a 40k novel but without humanity there is no real tragedy. Ender's Game/Bean's War is literally about children grown by the goverment to commit genocide. That's dark as 40k but they do it in a way that is far more appealing and engaging than any Warhamer 40k novel I've ever read. When you start seeing authors that don't use warporn to tell stories is way Warhammer 40k will finally break from it's pattern of better than average - to craptastic and breach the realm of just damn good storytelling.

 calgar 2.5 wrote:
and the Emperor was always trying to get into the webway.

Was he? I do not remember seeing a mention of this before the BL books. If one really exists, I'd appreciate if someone could point me towards it.

Too long for me. I don't have that kind of time

I love the HH series. Most of them have been winners in my book, a few that I could live without (the Dark Angels books, Fulgrim, Flight of the Eisenstein), but overall the same quality writing that ADB, Dan Abnett, and (usually) Graham MacNeil produce.

Most of the complaints seem to be that a major section of the fiction which was once an intentionally obscure and mythical past is now being fleshed out. It's just a new direction to go in, and people who don't like it can continue with a headcanon as if the HH novels didn't exist, and pride themselves in knowing that their personal perspective is closer to that of the average Imperial citizen, who also knows little to nothing true about these events.

I do, however, have one major complaint...
Not enough Night Lords!
(No, there is no such thing as enough. No, I do not see anything wrong with this position)

I hate the series, it deviate to much from the orginale Index Astrates series for me.

Any deviation would be to much for me but I considerd them "set in stone" so to speak.

I like it as a concept, but really it's too long for what it is. A book to set the scene, then one for each legion, then one or two at most for the battle of Terra would have been enough. Half of what's out seems to just be filler with almost enough minor plot points to be worth a book a tenth of the size.

About to start Fear To Tread today, I have my worries as its not one of the big three authors. Just finished The Emperor's Gift, i really liked the first 3/4. The last 1/4 kind of stalled, which could be said about almost every BL book I have read. They all start good and the middle is badass, then I think they get to near their deadline and just toss up whatever to finish them.