So I was looking at IA1 and saw the specs from the Chimera, and as it did before got te to thinking. Why don't the Space Marines use the Chimera?
I'll list the Pros and Cons
PROS
1. Its Amphibious. Self explanatory there.
2. Its bigger, more room for the gear.
3. It can carry Terminators (I will admit this one is purely pulled from the rules on how Rhinos CAN"T carry Termies and Chimera can)
4. Its better armed. (You can put Autocannons on it and still carry 12 guys. Makes the razorback obsolete.)
5. It has better front armor.
6. Its easier to manufacture.
7. More firing points.

Cons.
1. Less Side Armor
2. No side hatches.


Anyone else have an opinion?

In the fluff, Rhinos are lighter and faster, making them preferred for orbital drop/shock tactics. In addition, they have advanced AI systems, self-repair, and so on. A Rhino only needs 1 Marine to crew it whereas a Chimera requires more manpower to operate.

Forgeworld lists both the Rhino and the Chimera to have the same speed.

I thought only the Land Raider had advanced AI, called a machine spirit.

The Rhino is more easily air-portable, and so is easier to insert/extract from battle-zones by fast-moving and outnumbered forces.

Haven't you made this exact same thread before?

I'm not sure the firing points would help; they're only lasguns.

One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

In the fluff, they are probably closer to equal, even though in tabletop the Chimera is far better.

Coolyo294 wrote:Haven't you made this exact same thread before?

Me, I doubt it. I have commented on someone else s tread before, and got a lot of "NERD RAGED!!!" from my criticisms of the Rhino.

Decio wrote:I'm not sure the firing points would help; they're only lasguns.

You can fire other weapons out the back hatch, Plus the lasguns, which are better then the nothing the Rhino has.

hotsauceman1 wrote:One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

This is the most likely reason.

What gets crazier is the fact that in the original Rogue Trader fluff, the Imperial Guard used to be able to take Rhinos and Land raiders.

.. and Leman Russ was just an IG General, not a Primarch.

They are 2 different classes of vehicle.

Rhinos are APCs. Battle taxis. They move troops from point A to point B.

Chimeras are IFVs. They are meant to transport troops but also to fight on the front line. Marines usually leap out into the thick of the fray quickly and may leave their ride behind.


Fluffwise, the Rhino is more rugged and can take more abuse then a Chimera can. Its really only because of a rule loophole that Terminators can embark in Chimeras. Fluffwise, Marines have trouble fitting inside(made for normal humans) although it doesn't explain how Ogryns can fit in too(maybe special retrofits are made)


Rulewise, I'd take a Chimera over a Rhino anyday for my Marines. 15 points over a Rhino to gain 2 transport slots and 2 heavy weapons? Yes please.

A Chimera requires 3 crew , Gunner/ commander , driver , and co- driver / radio man SM use the rhino because it Is airportablr and is easy to repair . the chimera has a top batch which allows inside troops to fire special weaponry rather the. Use the gun ports

Yup tradition and an easy to repair/maintain history. The rhino is a work horse and dependable. It holds a traditional squad, no reason to have more space.

On the tabletop, the Chimera kicks the rhinos butt. But blame the rules for that, not the fluff behind why one side has one or the other.

Just to point out, for the most part i am using FLUFF and not rules. Chimeras should be even easier to maintain then a Rhido since its made for the masses of Imperial Guard to use. Chimeras also have he rear hatch to fire weapons out of.

Also "Chimeras are IFVs. They are meant to transport troops but also to fight on the front line. Marines usually leap out into the thick of the fray quickly and may leave their ride behind." Makes no sense, if the marines just care about a box to get there, why are they're Razorbacks? Why wouldn't a marine want extra fire support? You can place an Autocannon on a Chimera, then you have not only a transport, but also the same gun thats on a Predator, that sacrifices transport capacity for that gun.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Just to point out, for the most part i am using FLUFF and not rules. Chimeras should be even easier to maintain then a Rhido since its made for the masses of Imperial Guard to use. Chimeras also have he rear hatch to fire weapons out of.

Also "Chimeras are IFVs. They are meant to transport troops but also to fight on the front line. Marines usually leap out into the thick of the fray quickly and may leave their ride behind." Makes no sense, if the marines just care about a box to get there, why are they're Razorbacks? Why wouldn't a marine want extra fire support?

. Because Razorbacks at snot only harder to maintain. But require a full gunnery crew to operate , ineffective

Throughout the galaxy, servants of the Emperor take fire and steel to the enemies of Humanity, borne across the hell of uncounted battlefields in armoured fighting vehicles known as Rhinos. These blessed vehicles carry the warriors of the Emperor safely through the inferno of shot and shell to bring the Emperor's fiery retribution upon His enemies. The Rhino has been in Imperial service for over ten thousand years, and the origins of this faithful vehicle lie in the depths of Humanity's past, at the beginning of its expansion into space. [...]

Mankind's expansion into space leapt forwards as starships became capable of reaching further and further into the galaxy. Humanity entered a golden age of exploration and colonisation, and it seemed as though nothing could halt the expansion of Humanity's realm. In conjunction with this, early colonisation of newly discovered worlds was facilitated by the creation of the RH1 N0 Tracked Exploration and Multi Defence vehicle - commonly referred to as the Rhino. At its most basic level, the Rhino is an armoured transport on tracks, designed to cope with all manner of hostile environments and cross almost any dangerous terrain while protecting those within. The efficiency of the design has resulted in the basic configuration of the Rhino remaining largely unchanged in the last ten thousand years. Capable of being constructed from almost any materials and powered by any partially combustible fuel, the Rhino has proven time and time again to be one of the most reliable and durable vehicles ever devised. [...]

Soon, the Rhino became the standard transport vehicle of human armies across the galaxy, with differing variants falling in and out of favour as the nature of Man's enemies and battlefields changed. The armies of Mankind spread throughout the galaxy, and many hundreds of worlds were brought within this growing galactic empire. As more enemies were encountered, the STC systems provided these early armies with many different variants of the Rhino such as the Predator, Immolator and Whirlwind. All this was to come to an end, however, in a period now known as the Age of Strife. [...]

As knowledge of their construction faded from memory, attrition took its toll on the number of Rhinos throughout the galaxy. The rituals of maintenance became debased as the centuries passed and knowledge of the exact workings of the Rhinos passed into myth. Among those who retained the priceless knowledge of their construction were the Techmarines of the newly created Legiones Astartes and the Tech Priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who established strict guidelines regarding the construction, consecration and maintenance of these valuable vehicles. Whether built in the Martian weapon-forges of the Adeptus Mechanicus or the fortress monasteries of the Space Marines, the builders of these holy vehicles know that the purity and spiritual welfare of the Rhino is as important as the skill of the artificers who construct it. Over the millennia, scattered pieces of STC lore have been recovered, and ancient designs have slowly been reincorporated into the Imperial inventory. The Immolator tank used by the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas is one such example, the databank containing its construction details discovered within an ancient factory complex on the world of Fornoth during the Icaria Crusade. [...]

Besides the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, only a select few Imperial organisations now have access to Rhinos, the priceless technology involved in their construction and maintenance is too valuable to be entrusted to any but the most loyal and steadfast bodies of warriors. The Adepta Sororitas and Adeptus Arbites in particular have a number of Rhinos, and they maintain a body of those sanctified and pure of heart to care for them. Years of training go towards achieving this respected position. Aspirants must learn how to divine the runes of engineering, memorise the liturgy of maintenance and constantly study the routine of service. It is a position of great honour to care for these vehicles and those that are carried into battle within one of these armoured transports are mindful of the spirits that inhabit the mechanical functions and blessed bolts that make up each one. Should a Rhino ever be lost in battle, it is an occasion of great mourning for those entrusted with its care, and furious battles have been fought to reclaim the burned-out carcass of a Rhino simply to lay its spirit to rest. [...]

Rhinos can be salvaged and are brought back to the forge to have each wound reverently repaired by skilled artificers, the battle scars worn with pride and their war-spirits honoured with the Litanies of Battle. As a result, many Rhinos have remained in service for thousands of years, becoming holy relics amongst the Chapters of Space Marines and other Imperial servants who rely on them. The oldest Rhino in existence belongs to the Salamanders, and is known as Nocturne's Hammer. The Salamanders tell that it carried their legendary Primarch, Vulkan, into battle at the Siege of Devlin's Fastness, sallying cut through the gates of the Imperial fortress to attack the foe. Nocturne's Hammer has seen over eight thousand years of action and now has a place of honour in the Chapter's reliquary on Prometheus, its armoured hide scarred by millennia of war. [...]

The Rhino continues to serve as the mainstay of many Imperial organisations, and it is unlikely to be superseded without the discovery of a functioning STC database that will enable Imperial servants to further refine and improve on its design. Until that day, the faithful Rhino will continue to carry the warriors of the Emperor into battle, proof against the weapons of their foes and ready to bring the wrath of the Master of Mankind upon the blasphemous enemies.

-- short excerpt from White Dwarf #269 article "Rhinos", pages 10-13, written by Graham McNeill

tl;dr: yup, pretty much tradition, though it is reportedly also an extremely reliable vehicle, represented in the TT by a special check to negate Immobilised results

I just want to point out Rhino's are Its amphibious as well. That was in the SW codex IIRC.

Fido198674 wrote:I just want to point out Rhino's are Its amphibious as well. That was in the SW codex IIRC.

Looked at both the SM and SW codex again, and nothing on being amphibious. The SW codex rntry did mention that the savages of Fenris use longboats to make journeys so maybe thats what you recall.

Don't you ever get tired of bashing the Astartes? You never pass up a chance to say "Astartes are stupid! Astartes are useless! The Guard and Navy are better! The Imperium should just use the Guard and Navy and throw the Astartes away!"

It does seem silly that the elite guys get the mass-produced crap, while the dog infantry get better armoured and higher quality.

Torque also came up the last time we had this. The Rhino has four engines and a steeper climbing slope than the Chimera does. I would have thought rather than them even getting Rhinos or Chimeras they'd go for Repressors instead.

Why do spacemarines use tracked vehicles at all?
Droppods and T-Hawks make sense, both of them allow realy fast deployment and in the T-Hawk's case, realy fast retreats.
Rhinos and Razorbacks on the other hand are relatively slow, which is a terribly bad thing when your entire strikeforce consists of perhaps a hundred marines.

Tadashi wrote:Don't you ever get tired of bashing the Astartes? You never pass up a chance to say "Astartes are stupid! Astartes are useless! The Guard and Navy are better! The Imperium should just use the Guard and Navy and throw the Astartes away!"

Where exactly do you see anyone "bashing Astartes" in this thread? Seems to me people were merely puzzled at the Rhino - which is not even used exclusively by Space Marines - being held in higher regard than the more common Chimaera.

Bashing Marines happens occasionally, but far less often as someone hyping the Astartes beyond feasible levels. And most often, the former is just a reaction to the latter.

Lynata wrote:
Bashing Marines happens occasionally, but far less often as someone hyping the Astartes beyond feasible levels. And most often, the former is just a reaction to the latter.

Every time Mr. Caboose does something, it always degenerates into showing off the Space Marines' bad sides and showcasing the Imperial Guard off. I am sick and tired of people bashing the Space Marines simply because they dislike the Space Marines - they have a problem with Space Marines, go to GW.

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:
Bashing Marines happens occasionally, but far less often as someone hyping the Astartes beyond feasible levels. And most often, the former is just a reaction to the latter.

Every time Mr. Caboose does something, it always degenerates into showing off the Space Marines' bad sides and showcasing the Imperial Guard off. I am sick and tired of people bashing the Space Marines simply because they dislike the Space Marines - they have a problem with Space Marines, go to GW.

But where has he had a go at Space Marines? He's made some good points as to why the Rhino should be used by other factions and the Space Marines should use better vehicles to transport them.

Maybe you shouldn't take it to heart so much?

Literally nothing he's said has bashed marines in this thread. Since in your other thread about how it was impossible for anyone not a spess marihn to be lord chancellor of the imperium, and accused anyone who suggested otherwise of being a troll, it's probably you who have daddy issues around marines.

Pilau Rice wrote:

But where has he had a go at Space Marines? He's made some good points as to why the Rhino should be used by other factions and the Space Marines should use better vehicles to transport them.

Maybe you shouldn't take it to heart so much?

I don't know...this thread just really popped a vein on my forehead (figuratively...if something really did pop, I'd be in the hospital right now) considering I've been holding in lots of steam - ever since I came to Dakka, this guy jumps on everything the Space Marines do and says the Guard could do it better. Heck, this even insists that the Imperium would do fine without any Astartes at all.

Testify wrote:Literally nothing he's said has bashed marines in this thread. Since in your other thread about how it was impossible for anyone not a spess marihn to be lord chancellor of the imperium, and accused anyone who suggested otherwise of being a troll, it's probably you who have daddy issues around marines.

Even before that he was bashing Astartes and insisting the Guard is all the Imperium needs. I'm going to look for all the posts...this might take a while.

Found them...

1)

I see the tau-iom war as something like the eastern front during world war 2. Only with the tau being the size of luxemburg. And the soviets like the size of the rest of the world. The only thing is is that aliens are attacking and the soviets cant bring the full force to bear.

And you really dont even need the astrades. Catachann, eleysian, and harkonian style regiments can provide all of the mobile elelments and then some. I mean the Imperial Guard only provides like 99.99999999999999999% of the Imperiums fighting forces, at least planet side. Let the ultrasmurfs do more important things. Like polishing their armor...

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/412954.page#3612915

2)

Yeah tau ship are glass cannons at best, but mostly inferior death traps. The imperial fleet is clearly better. At least in bfg stats.

So since the Imperium can get space superiority they can pretty much win any planetary battle. Is how it should work.

Of course tau have a plot armor that rivals space marines. And the real defenders of the imperium get flanderized into poorly trained conscripts. It happens.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/412954.page#3617752

3)

Like i said, glory boys who hide in their fortresses and polish there armor. Oh and some go crazy if they get disfigured. *cough*capt. Tycho*cough*

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/415446.page#3658320

4)

At least we can agree that an off duty sister has more fun then an off duty marine. Judging on how shiny marine armor is they must spend hours polishing it. Blood angels even more so.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/415001.page#3687479

5)

I still stand by that the majority of marines, esp blood angels, spend their free time polishing their armor. It goes like this.

"Incoming distress signal Brother Captain." said Battle Brother Marticuis Suicles "Chaos maraders are attacking the Imperial planet Bob, the pdf tried to respond but where killed to a man"

"Not now Brother Suicles, Im polishing the gold inlays of my armor"

"Very well sir"

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/415001.page#3689353

6)

Never let your armor get dirty. Polish at all cost.

Never were thy helmet in combat. Tis unmanly.

Never use tactics that make sense.

Never be reasonable.

Never let the Guard get credit for anything.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dude no way could 1000 marines take a planet. Some exceptions do apply.

A marine is worth only about 10 guardsmen acording to some fluff. So your 1000 marines would lose to 10000+ other soldiers.

And plus the Imerial Guard does 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the IoM fighting. They're the true defenders of the Imperium. Mahreens are just posers.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/421708.page#3765795

7)

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Pretty much how i play it in my rpgs. Except the space marines are dicks, like how they are in the canon. And the Eldar are like they are in the fluff as well, as likely to help you as to kill you. Now the Tau are usually bad guys, especially if its set on the eastern (space has no east fool) front. But its mostly the human infiltrators causing havok. And the Tau arent bad, i guess i should say their usually the antagonist.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/431765.page#3954092

8)

It would have to be about an IG regiment. Space marines are way too boring. Talk about a snooze fest. SM walks into a room bullets bouncing harmlessly off his armor. Yawn.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/447453.page#4245756

9)

Space marines would have no character. The audience would have no empathy. All the show would be is action. No character development. No intregue. Nothing worth watching.

- http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/447453.page#4245756

10)

I've always had this view. Marines don't make as big a difference as Marine fans think.
The IoM wouln't survive without the IG and the Fleet, but it could survive with out the Marines. "But OBC what about Deamons, mere humans can't fight deamons" There are numerous fluff tales of standard humans killing even greater deamons. It just takes about 10 times as many humans.

I've never hidden that I believe that the IG/IN are the better military force in the IoM and that it could survive without the Marines where the IoM could not survive without the IG/IN. But this was a serious discussion on why the elites of the Imperium are cruising around in what appears to be an inferior APC/IFV (Rhino/Razorback.)

Testify wrote:It does seem silly that the elite guys get the mass-produced crap, while the dog infantry get better armoured and higher quality.

Rhinos are not mass produced, many are older then the current chapter master. They can get beaten, bombarded and all around abused an they will come back ith a vengeance.
Chimeras are mass produced to be build to throw away. They may have thicker armor, but they dont have the survivability of a rhino beyond that. And with astartes moving around alot/not always in contact with the imperium they have to have a vehicle that is easily repaired.

Chimeras aren't designed to be operated by 8ft tall power armored super soldiers, they likely wouldn't fit anywhere but the transport compartment, and side hatches really do matter. Additionally, the Rhino serves as the basis for all marine vehicles, making maintenance and fielding such vehicles much simpler.

Something to keep in mind is that, with the Astartes, the Rhino is there to deliver super soldiers to the enemy, the SM's primary power is derived from their infantry, not their tanks, the tanks are support elements. The reverse is often true when it comes to the IG, and the Chimera provides a lot of the firepower and staying power of IG formations they are part of.

TL;DR Marines wouldn't fit in the crew compartments, marines need a battle bus more than a long range-capable anti-infantry IFV.

Tadashi wrote:
Even before that he was bashing Astartes and insisting the Guard is all the Imperium needs.

Well, they are.
Just like Britain could defend itself alright without the SAS, but WITH them we are much more capable of projecting force. And, hey, the SAS are just cooler.

Testify wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Even before that he was bashing Astartes and insisting the Guard is all the Imperium needs.

Well, they are.
Just like Britain could defend itself alright without the SAS, but WITH them we are much more capable of projecting force. And, hey, the SAS are just cooler.

Exactly. Now is the IoM better off with the Astartes? Of course. Does the IoM need them to fight in every battle? No, not even close to every battle.

they use rhinos for 3 reasons :
1)

hotsauceman1 wrote:One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

2)

Grey Templar wrote:
Rhinos are APCs. Battle taxis. They move troops from point A to point B.

3) they can stand many things.

4) they use its pater to all SM tanks. if a rhino fall a Predator may be repaired

Pada wrote:they use rhinos for 3 reasons :
1)

hotsauceman1 wrote:One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

2)

Grey Templar wrote:
Rhinos are APCs. Battle taxis. They move troops from point A to point B.

3) they can stand many things.

4) they use its pater to all SM tanks. if a rhino fall a Predator may be repaired

1. Its understandable, Marines are very conservative.
2. If all they needed where "Battle Taxis" there would be no Razorbacks. Chimeras would fill both roles with minimum reconfiguration. Plus they could put an autocannon in the turrent and have a Rhino/Predator hybrid.
3. Rhinos are extremely Durable.
4. The Chimera has more varients of its hull then the Rhino.

The main reason I believe is so that Marine vehicles are different from Guard vehicles. That way each army has an different look. Beides this and that Its Traditional I really can't see any fluff reasons why the marines would use the Rhino hull over the Chimera, apart from the Crew issue, which would be solved by a slight redesign or having the Chapter Serfs do the driving.

Vaktathi wrote:Chimeras aren't designed to be operated by 8ft tall power armored super soldiers

Well, neither were Rhinos, if we'd go by that WD excerpt.

Also, in GW's world, Space Marines are 7 feet big.

Razorbacks were developed in order to marry the durable rhino frame with something with more firepower.

The more conservative marine chapters still don't trust the Razorback as much though. Some refuse to use it at all.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Beides this and that Its Traditional I really can't see any fluff reasons why the marines would use the Rhino hull over the Chimera, apart from the Crew issue, which would be solved by a slight redesign or having the Chapter Serfs do the driving.

Have you ever checked how many different vehicles real life militaries use? Sure, in smaller countries every branch uses the same APC (possibly in an IFV variant for heavier forces) but the big boys have a lot of different stuff. Different branches with different budgets sometimes plain refuse to use the same crap as "those other rifle-toting guys" use, making sure they get away with it by tailoring their procurement requirements so they get to buy a different vehicle. Sometimes forces use specialized variants that you (conveniently) just can't base on the vehicle the others use. There's a lot of envy and competition there, and instead of fighting each other they'll try to outdo each other with how much unique equipment they can manage to get for themself. Defence contractors all want to sell too - no reason to ditch your new line if the Army bought a competitor's product, just redesign a bit and pitch it to the Marines. And the vehicles reaching end-of-life get shuffled down to low-end units or reserves so that they're still in use long after the top regiments quit using them.

Chimera vs Rhino chassis - tradition and pride, I guess.

Lynata wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Chimeras aren't designed to be operated by 8ft tall power armored super soldiers

Well, neither were Rhinos, if we'd go by that WD excerpt.

Also, in GW's world, Space Marines are 7 feet big.

People can't seem to get that. I ran one fanwork where the marines where 10ft tall. Granted it was not the only thing wrong with the piece.

Space Marines (And the Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, Arbites, etc.) use Rhinos because the Rhino design tends to have better technology in it (self repair or just greater redundancy/more complex engine setup, a more complicated armour setup, etc.) and they generally have better political connections to the AdMech (well, that and they're smaller.) At least going by IA fluff it is.

The funny thing is, one of the big selling points of the Rhino as I recall is that it was capable of being made from 'virtually any local material' due to its STC origins. So you could technically make lower tech Rhinos from regular steel or aluminum or titanium and stick a lower tech engine (steam engine?) in it if you wanted, rathre than ceramite and adamantium and some thermic combuster (or whatever high tech engine the Rhino is supposed to have.) Go figure.

GW is a business. It wants it's armies to have distinct looks so that each army has to buy its own stuff.

Logistically, SMs should have access to chimeras, mortars, grenade launchers etc. Such equipment is commonly available. But allies lets you do that now. So take an allied IG platoon and commandeer the chimera.

Done.

First: Spot on about the 'distinctive army' thing. That pretty much covers the Out of Universe reason regarding the Rhinos.

SEcond: There really wouldn't be much point ot Space Marines having Chimeras. Chimeras work for the IG because they're much smaller than a power armoured Marine and thus don't take up as much internal space that can be devoted to other things (such as firing points from which the Guardsmen can operate, or a big gun that can help them fight.)

More to the point, Marines are meant to be seen (both by allies and enemies). Having them cooped up in a Chimera doesn't really serve much purpose (insert your own 'metal boxes' joke here) so all they really need is something to move them from point A to B faster in actual combat (and depending on your fluff they may not even need a vehicle. Marines have been clocked at speeds as fast or faster than a Rhino after all.)

As far as Space Marines and artillery goes - they don't really need it again. They can throw grenades pretty darn far, they typically have missile launchers (man portable and whirlwind) and they have tons of air (thunderhawk) and starship artillery support consistently. And there's always the Thunderfire cannon if you REALLY need them to have cannons...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I've never hidden that I believe that the IG/IN are the better military force in the IoM and that it could survive without the Marines where the IoM could not survive without the IG/IN. But this was a serious discussion on why the elites of the Imperium are cruising around in what appears to be an inferior APC/IFV (Rhino/Razorback.)

I've yet to see an Imperial World that shines like the brilliant gems of the Realm Of Ultramar. Or a city like Tizca - acclaimed during the Great Crusade as one of the greatest cities of Mankind.

More importantly, the Space Marines are the ultimate creation of the Emperor. Are you questioning the Emperor's judgment in creating the Space Marines? If so, you are no better than a common heretic.

Because the Codex Astartes demands it so.

While a Chimera may fit 12 Ig, SM are twice the size of IG, then you have to add armor and weapons. I don't think Chimeras are meant to hold that much weight either.

How bout this?

Because Games Workshop said so.

Fido198674 wrote:How bout this?

Because Games Workshop said so.

Pretty much the most-sensible answer we've had.

1:Rhinos are built for fights where supply lines are very touch and go, unlike the IG who rarely go into a fight with logistics being an issue. Meaning that marines wont have to worry about a part breaking as much as IG transports do.
2:As has been stated many times tradition keeps them mainline for marines as well.
3: Weight, IIRC the rhino is light compared to a Chimera, and when you are dropping them off with Thunderhawks its weight becomes a great necessity.
4: With it being a battle-taxi those side ports are very nice for hopping out of(Imagine how much of a pain it would be getting out of a vehicle quickly through the back)
5: Because GW has to give you something else to about SMs
6:Chimeras are very tight fits for space marines(Killing Ground Graham Mcneil) Wherein Rhinos are not (The original rhino was probably meant to stow 2 squads of standard humans)
7: Wait....why are we feeding the troll?

Because Rhinos are what GW came up with 20-odd years ago when they wanted to have some vehicles in the game for their favourite faction. In the early days the Guard used Rhinos extensively as well, as GW hadn't come up with a Guard specific vehicle. You used to get Guard Predator companies as well. That was fun

Nowadays they've had more time to diversify the factions and provide the Guard with their own kit, but the Rhino is (and always has been) so iconic a part of the Marine forces it has stuck. I rather like the way pretty much every Marine vehicle is based on the Rhino chassis, just like how almost all Guard vehicles are based on the chimera chassis.

Also Guard need IFVs because they are squishy fleshlings, while Marines only need a tin can on tracks because they are individually armed and armoured so well.

According to all the fluff I have read the Rhino seems a lot more durable than the Chimera. The Rhino shrugs off heavier weaponry like rockets where the Chimara is normally described as a death trap.
As mentioned about the Rhino seems to require a lot less maintainance in the field and is spacier. If 1 marine equals 2 guardsmen then you would need a lot more transports to carry the same load if you go for chimeras.
Also mentioned above is that the rest of the SMs equipment is designed around the Land Raider and Rhino platforms. Thunderhawks and Stormhawks were designed to deliver these vehicles into the thick of things where the chimera can only be deployed by lander.
Last is the fuel issue. The Rhino can run on anything where the chimera is limited to promesomethingsomething.

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:According to all the fluff I have read the Rhino seems a lot more durable than the Chimera. The Rhino shrugs off heavier weaponry like rockets where the Chimara is normally described as a death trap.

This is largely because a lot of authors tend to write Space Marine fiction as though Marines are near gods and their wargear almost literally forged by divine hands, whereas with IG they tend to write it a lot more "blood and guts".

Considering the Space Marines are the gene-sons of demi-gods and possess weapons that considered cutting-edge by the Mechanicum and therefore 'holy', its shouldn't come as a surprise.

Depends on the author, really. There's a rather important difference between considering the Space Marines as "near gods" because that's how Imperial propaganda depicts them - and actually writing them as if said propaganda would be true.

The vision propagated in GW's own books is usually rather conservative, whereas most outsourced products tend to lean towards the far extreme - be it because of pandering to the reader who wants to experience an epic tale where his favourite army is depicted in the most heroic light possible, or because the author himself is a fan.

The term "demi-god" alone is fairly meaningless, for example, considering that it is applied to what amounts to "just" a genetically engineered transhuman creature. Unless you think the Emperor is an actual god rather than just a very powerful psyker (something that most of the Marines themselves do not) - for in this case, I suppose you could claim that the Primarchs, being figurative "sons of the Emperor", do qualify for that term.

It is perhaps ironic, though, that many amongst the Marines' fans hold viewpoints the opposite of what the Marines themselves stand for - such as the rejection of godhood.

Lynata wrote:

The term "demi-god" alone is fairly meaningless, for example, considering that it is applied to what amounts to "just" a genetically engineered transhuman creature. Unless you think the Emperor is an actual god rather than just a very powerful psyker (something that most of the Marines themselves do not) - for in this case, I suppose you could claim that the Primarchs, being figurative "sons of the Emperor", do qualify for that term.

It is perhaps ironic, though, that many amongst the Marines' fans hold viewpoints the opposite of what the Marines themselves stand for - such as the rejection of godhood.

The definition of 'god' in 40k is blurred anyway. The Emperor is clearly an ageless psyker with godlike power, and his sons all got a shadow of that power. Their sons in turn received a shadow of that shadow of power. Even the Powers of Chaos and the Daemons of the Warp aren't gods or daemons at all - they're just called that, but they're just energy-based life-forms from an alternate dimension. The same could be said of Gork and Mork, and perhaps the Eldar Gods as well. The C'tan? Its quite clear that they are, or rather were, the material equivalent of the Chaos Powers.

Personally, I don't think or believe the Emperor is a god per se, otherwise why would I be so antagonistic to the Ecclesiarchy. Its just that, for all intents and purposes, he and the Primarchs were a 'god' and 'demi-gods' respectively, and the Astartes their superhuman progeny.

Hmmm,

The why... Why ask why?

Maybe it is tip happy (roles over too much, and cant land out of aircrafts), maybe the windows don't fit bolter barrels, maybe the recoil and noise of the bolters are too dangerous compared to a lasgun, maybe it’s the fuel consumption, or the series of the military issue.

Think now a days, we don't shoot Rambo’s big beastly weapons.. Too big, too powerful. We don’t arm mini guns and missiles on our HMMVES even though there are mods for them to do just that. We don’t even issue them out anymore. The MAX pro is bigger and roomier then the other MRAPS, but its hydraulic back door is much more dangerous than the battle lock side doors on the newer MRAP.

My guess... Using the GW layout. The Rhino is much customizable for the mission it is used in. From Whirlwind, to Razorback, to Predators, with so many options for each. Just like the HMMVEE was... up until we needed more armor, larger load capacity, and more torque for the larger loads.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm,

The why... Why ask why?

Maybe it is tip happy (roles over too much, and cant land out of aircrafts), maybe the windows don't fit bolter barrels, maybe the recoil and noise of the bolters are too dangerous compared to a lasgun, maybe it’s the fuel consumption, or the series of the military issue.

Think now a days, we don't shoot Rambo’s big beastly weapons.. Too big, too powerful. We don’t arm mini guns and missiles on our HMMVES even though there are mods for them to do just that. We don’t even issue them out anymore. The MAX pro is bigger and roomier then the other MRAPS, but its hydraulic back door is much more dangerous than the battle lock side doors on the newer MRAP.

My guess... Using the GW layout. The Rhino is much customizable for the mission it is used in. From Whirlwind, to Razorback, to Predators, with so many options for each. Just like the HMMVEE was... up until we needed more armor, larger load capacity, and more torque for the larger loads.

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor is clearly an ageless psyker with godlike power

There is another vague term. "Godlike power" being what? Whatever he had, it did not save him from being killed. The same goes for the Primarchs, and of course the Space Marines - who are quite mortal and die just like anyone else in the Imperium.

Yes, "gods" or "demigods" are basically created by the people who elate such individuals to this status. This goes for the Emperor as well as the Gods of Chaos. Or all the Saints the Imperium has. It's all a matter of perception, all depending on the difference between one person and the world he or she visits, or rather the people who live there. The story of Vandire using a Rosarius to fool the pre-sisterhood Daughters of the Emperor springs to mind.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:The Rhino is much customizable for the mission it is used in. From Whirlwind, to Razorback, to Predators, with so many options for each.

I'm not sure if the Rhino truly is more customizable than the Chimaera. Both chassis sport a large variety of variants.
But for the Space Marines (and the other elite organisations that use Rhinos), reliability seems more important than raw firepower, as the latter is delivered by the people carried by this vehicle. Safely getting them to where they are needed is thusly more important than sporting a big weapon on itself. A Rhino offloading squads of power-armoured shock troops at its goal has achieved more than a Chimaera that is stuck in the middle of the field because its engine has a lower tolerance.

Wardragoon wrote:1:Rhinos are built for fights where supply lines are very touch and go, unlike the IG who rarely go into a fight with logistics being an issue. Meaning that marines wont have to worry about a part breaking as much as IG transports do.
2:As has been stated many times tradition keeps them mainline for marines as well.
3: Weight, IIRC the rhino is light compared to a Chimera, and when you are dropping them off with Thunderhawks its weight becomes a great necessity.
4: With it being a battle-taxi those side ports are very nice for hopping out of(Imagine how much of a pain it would be getting out of a vehicle quickly through the back)
5: Because GW has to give you something else to about SMs
6:Chimeras are very tight fits for space marines(Killing Ground Graham Mcneil) Wherein Rhinos are not (The original rhino was probably meant to stow 2 squads of standard humans)
7: Wait....why are we feeding the troll?

I'm not trolling,.just because I don't drink the Space Marines are Gods Kool aid doesn't mean I'm a troll. As for the Rhino being able to carry 20 people that's not what I've read, the Rhino carries the same amount as the chimera.

As for about marines, I don't unless they do something stupid. I do put down space marine fan boyism, which makes me a troll to the fan boys I guess.

They carry different amounts of people. You have to remember that marines are a lot bigger than humans.

Because they'd looked pretty funny riding into battle inside mycetic spores.

Chimeras are for little IG chumps. Astartes are so badass, they only need a Rhino.

Seriously though, why would they use something other than the Rhino when they have the STC for that which they use for a lot of other vehicles? If they happen to need a Whirlwind or Predator, it's probably relativly easy to retrofit it.

beigeknight wrote:If they happen to need a Whirlwind or Predator, it's probably relativly easy to retrofit it.

I don't think that anybody retrofits anything in the Imperium. The AdMech seems to be pretty strict at modifying stuff.

Lynata wrote:

beigeknight wrote:If they happen to need a Whirlwind or Predator, it's probably relativly easy to retrofit it.

I don't think that anybody retrofits anything in the Imperium. The AdMech seems to be pretty strict at modifying stuff.

That would be heresy and the tech marines would have to pay a steep price for getting the chapter under review from the Inquistion. At least I would think so.

IIRC Grey Knight terminators & PA Grey Knights can hitch a ride in Inquisitorial Chimeras, also IG Chimeras can carry ogryns although its rather cramped for them, so this throws the size argument out the window for the passengers. Not sure about the driver though.

The Rhino is a taxi to get Marines to battle. That's why it has four doors on it. So that Marines can come out the sides, the back, heck, even the top, in order to put the hurting on people.

The Chimera is a fighting vehicle designed to support the lesser able Guardsmen. A Space Marine tactical squad carries as much, if not more, firepower than a Chimera.



Plus, again, people are confusing game rules and plastic models with the fluff. In the fluff, the Rhino is designed to carry ten fully armored Space Marines. The Chimera is designed to carry 10 regular sized human soldiers. It's pretty obvious that the Rhino is likely much more powerful, with a lot more torque, and a lot higher max load. The Chimera is also probably smaller than a Rhino, inside and out. AFVs aren't designed with a ton of extra room in them. So while an Ogryn can be stuffed into the Chimera, it's probably not very comfortable. And while a Space Marine and a Guardsman take up the same amount of space in the game rules, that's for simplicity, and it's obvious that that would not be the case in the fluff.

Never take the game rules seriously. They are, quite admittedly by the designers, designed for balanced game play and selling plastic model kits, and not simulation. There's a reason why Space Marines are relatively fragile on the table top, but have always been extremely durable in the fluff (except when amateur writers need to kill a bunch of them off as a plot device). It's because if a single squad of Marines were an army unto themselves, you'd only need ten figures for an army.

well rules as i had seen them they were ok
i mean the points of a tactical SM is 90 points.Same as 8,5 FW. You may think that SM can hold much , but that uu hear is from glorious victories of SM
and of course they arent 100% true , but they are ok.
but wait: when we say that a SM and a Guardman take same place, we forget that they got diferent codexes.so we cant judge that.
In my opinion, the problem is on the Allies chart , because its says that SM can get in IG ACP.........( if they cant sry, i didnt took the new rulebook,i had odered )

Very specifically there are rules for vehicles which state Space Marines take up 1 passenger space, while things like Terminators, Ogryns, and Dreadnoughts take up two or more.

Thus, in game rules, Space Marines and Guardsmen are the "same size".

Again though, this is why you can't use the rules to discuss fluff a lot of the time. The rules are designed to be simple and playable. Nobody wants to be doing compound fractions to figure out how many models go into this vehicle or that.

I've been using the fluff. Oygren in fluff are huge, almost tda sized. And they can fit in chimeras, plus the hapless guy with a trusting face who lured them in there. Chimeras hulls are more versatile then the rhino, need artillery, take your pick. Need a missile launcher, chimera hull. Need a flame tank, chimera hull. Need a mini predator that can still transport passengers. Chimera hull.

However I will agree that the marines need more doors to exit from, and tradition.

As for size, again I'm sure that since the chimera is bigger that it could carry 10 marines.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:As for size, again I'm sure that since the chimera is bigger that it could carry 10 marines.

The Rhino has a height of 3.6 meters, whereas the Chimaera is 3.72 metres. Of course both measurements include the pintle-mounted storm bolter / the multilaser turret, so there is some variance.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There's a reason why Space Marines are relatively fragile on the table top, but have always been extremely durable in the fluff

The reason being that novel writers naturally profit from pandering to the Marine fanbase. Any protagonist is somehow better than usual 99% in the fluff, regardless of whether it's an Astartes or not. Of course, since most novels are about Space Marines, this may twist public perception in their favour. I found that the studio material generally presents a much more "grounded" impression of their capabilities, though. A lot of people either don't know or conveniently ignore that the Marines' resilience against a lasgun's attack in the TT is actually equal with the protective capabilities of Astartes power armour as explained in the Codex Angels of Death.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There's a reason why Space Marines are relatively fragile on the table top, but have always been extremely durable in the fluff

The reason being that novel writers naturally profit from pandering to the Marine fanbase. Any protagonist is somehow better than usual 99% in the fluff, regardless of whether it's an Astartes or not. Of course, since most novels are about Space Marines, this may twist public perception in their favour. I found that the studio material generally presents a much more "grounded" impression of their capabilities, though. A lot of people either don't know or conveniently ignore that the Marines' resilience against a lasgun's attack in the TT is actually equal with the protective capabilities of Astartes power armour as explained in the Codex Angels of Death.

You always say this but you never provide any evidence of it.

We're talking about official fluff, not Black Library novels. It's consistent. Arguing against easily demonstrated fact, and basic commercial philosophy is rather pointless. Unless you'd like to offer some examples of this "grounded" fluff. Space Marines routinely do with hundreds what tens of thousands of Guardsmen fail to. The Ultramarines and their attendant PDF ground down an entire Hive Fleet. A few hundred years later, they did it a second time. A single chapter wiped out an entire Eldar Craftworld. One company holds off an entire planet full of Necrons in time for the civilian population to be evacuated. A single Chapter destroys the near-unstoppable World Engine. Stories constantly refer to heavily wounded Space Marines getting back up, and after action reports nearly always speak of how only handfuls of Marines are unwounded, but the unit is still functional. A Sergeant killing a dozen Aspect Warriors in the defense of a position while taking grievous wounds. A Wolf Guard being cleaved by a bone sword, the wound closing up on its own and him getting back up to fight. Even in the stories where they are defeated, the Space Marines are consistently described as absurdly tough, and extremely resilient, and able to recover from grievous wounds. Codex: Dark Eldar, for example: "their power armor was holding proof against the splinter weapons of their foes. Even those Space Marines who took direct hits gritted their teeth and fought through the pain". 500 Space Marines murderized most of the city of Commoraugh. This is in the Dark Eldar book, lol. But I'm sure that fluff was just written by some kind of Space Marine fanboy who was pandering. The arrival of three Space Marine Chapters halted an entire Waaaaagh. Certainly the writers of Codex: Orks were pandering when they wrote "Such was the fury of the Blood angels that they slew nearly half the Ork army invading Tartarus." What we know is that sometimes the writers of other armies' fluff pander to their audience by allowing them to win handily against Space Marines who should have been smarter, or tougher, had they been written consistent to the fluff. People recognize the Space Marines as being awesome, for the exact reason that they are nearly always portrayed as awesome. It isn't that people expect them to be awesome, so the writers write them that way, lol. The fluff came before the perception. That's why the perception exists in the first place.

What we know is that the Space Marines have incredibly durable armor that, in the official fluff, is proof against las fire, shuriken catapults, splinter cannons, etc. Marines taking direct hits from these weapons and the armor stopping the damage. That, or even it penetrating, and the Marine simply shrugging it off and carrying on. We know that the Space Marines win epic battles, repeatedly, with incredibly inferior numbers, both through sheer durability of both armor and body, and vastly superior fighting ability. While you might argue that to an extent the table top rules echo this by their high strength and excellent armor save. But nowhere do we see the Marines throwing off armies that outnumber them by many multiples, which we see all the time in the fluff. And why is that? Because that game is no fun, lol. No player is going to buy hundreds of Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar or Tyranid models if his opponent shows up with 20 Space Marines, wipes the table, and calls it a day. So the Marines take a hit in the table top rules so that A: Games Workshop can sell more models (from both Marine Armies, and make it fiscally sound for a sane person to collect any army other than Space Marines), and B: make them fun to play against.

Is "because they do" an answer?

Saying that along the same, vein, always bugged me about the lack of dedicated tanks. IG has the chimera variants, and the Russ, which is its main tank. doesnt take troops, but is a dedicated armoured weapons platform. The marines get what, more rhino variants? Even the landraider is still just a better armoured IFV. Or would this be down to things needing to pull double duty with the SM? Cus im failing to see it as a weight issue for transporting them from thunderhawk with how much a crusader must weigh compared to a chimera or a rhino, but they still manage to drop them off.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So I was looking at IA1 and saw the specs from the Chimera, and as it did before got te to thinking. Why don't the Space Marines use the Chimera?
I'll list the Pros and Cons
PROS
1. Its Amphibious. Self explanatory there.
2. Its bigger, more room for the gear.
3. It can carry Terminators (I will admit this one is purely pulled from the rules on how Rhinos CAN"T carry Termies and Chimera can)
4. Its better armed. (You can put Autocannons on it and still carry 12 guys. Makes the razorback obsolete.)
5. It has better front armor.
6. Its easier to manufacture.
7. More firing points.

Cons.
1. Less Side Armor
2. No side hatches.

Anyone else have an opinion?

1) Marines don't need an amphibious transport. They are in sealed suits. Guardsmen on the other hand would have a much harder time forging a river.
2) Bigger transport = bigger profile = bigger target. If you look at the orginial model side by side with a chimmera, you'll see that the rhino was much easier to hide.
3) Originally, terminators could ride in rhinos.
4) Better armed is nice, but marines can pack their own firepower. Devistators in a rhino pack more firepower than a weapon team in a chimmera.
5) Better front armor, and worse side armor, as you pointed out. As a battle taxi that is going to dump troops into the fray, you need that side armor. You don't want those renegades to wax your transport with a heavy stubber.
6) Ease of production isn't as critical considering the scale involved. A full chapter numbers around 1,000 marines. It would only take 100 rhinos to transport them all. Compare that to say, chimmeras needed for cadians.
7) More firing ports is nice, but the task at hand is mobility, not park and shoot. Older rules had 2 marines shooting out of a rhino, and just 6 lasguns out of the chimmera. If they opened the top hatch to fire out, it made the chimmera opened topped and much more vulnerable.

Why not compare a chimmera to a land raider? They both transport. The reason you don't, is that they fill totally different rolls. Just like the rhino, and the chimmera fill different rolls; just like the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines fill different rolls.

If you just want hands down best transport, I'll put my money on Space Marine Strike Cruiser. It solves so many of the Xenos problems all in once vehicle.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I said some stuff

1) Marines don't need an amphibious transport. They are in sealed suits. Guardsmen on the other hand would have a much harder time forging a river.
2) Bigger transport = bigger profile = bigger target. If you look at the orginial model side by side with a chimmera, you'll see that the rhino was much easier to hide.
3) Originally, terminators could ride in rhinos.
4) Better armed is nice, but marines can pack their own firepower. Devistators in a rhino pack more firepower than a weapon team in a chimmera.
5) Better front armor, and worse side armor, as you pointed out. As a battle taxi that is going to dump troops into the fray, you need that side armor. You don't want those renegades to wax your transport with a heavy stubber.
6) Ease of production isn't as critical considering the scale involved. A full chapter numbers around 1,000 marines. It would only take 100 rhinos to transport them all. Compare that to say, chimmeras needed for cadians.
7) More firing ports is nice, but the task at hand is mobility, not park and shoot. Older rules had 2 marines shooting out of a rhino, and just 6 lasguns out of the chimmera. If they opened the top hatch to fire out, it made the chimmera opened topped and much more vulnerable.

Why not compare a chimmera to a land raider? They both transport. The reason you don't, is that they fill totally different rolls. Just like the rhino, and the chimmera fill different rolls; just like the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines fill different rolls.

If you just want hands down best transport, I'll put my money on Space Marine Strike Cruiser. It solves so many of the Xenos problems all in once vehicle.

-Matt

Thanks Matt, I see your point on all of them except for point 1) That would have either the marines needing to ride the rhino to the river, hop out, then cross the river (I guess they walk on the bottom since the suits look to heavy to swim) and them either wait around for the Rhino to find a ford/bridge, or continue on foot at a slower pace. I know in the tabbletop its not important, but on a real battlefield it would make a difference.

Also I know the Land Raider can go under water and fight, but I've never seen anything that says the Rhino is waterproof.

Its because SM players don't want to use anything associated with anybody else. They are ELITE and get their own gear.

Also it would be cheaper for a player with IG and SM so GW makes a seperate model to force you to buy MORE.

shocking I know!

Could be why the SoB seem to be getting pushed away.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You always say this but you never provide any evidence of it.

What evidence would you like? I have posted a number of quotes in the past - I think most people around here know by now that I usually back up my claims with various quotes.
Not everybody does, sadly.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:We're talking about official fluff, not Black Library novels.

All fluff is "official", it comes down to individual visions, or "alternate realities" if you will.
But thanks for clarifying (or rather declaring) what "we" are talking about, for nobody in this thread has done that so far. Makes a debate much more easier.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines routinely do with hundreds what tens of thousands of Guardsmen fail to.

And Guard regiments routinely do what Space Marines fail to. Both organisations have their modus operandi - the Astartes are the shock troops, useful for when you need to focus as much power as possible onto a very small spot, whereas the Imperial Guard gets called in when the enemy becomes too much for the Marines to handle.

"Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed against Mankind."
- 2E C:IG, p4

And then of course we have this saying from Primarch Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists:
"Give me a hundred space marines, or failing that, give me a thousand other troops."
- 4E C:SM

With this ratio alone, your claim pretty much lost all its weight. I trust a Primarch to know the capabilities of his Space Marines better than you.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What we know is that sometimes the writers of other armies' fluff pander to their audience by allowing them to win handily against Space Marines who should have been smarter, or tougher, had they been written consistent to the fluff.

Of course when the Marines get owned it's a mistake, but when the Marines own someone else that's consistency. Riiiiiight.

I recommend you discard the Astartes Goggles, for unless we accept all sources as equal there's quite simply no point to the discussion since you are obviously cherrypicking what suits your claim best.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The fluff came before the perception. That's why the perception exists in the first place.

Right, that must be why every second Marine fanboy thinks the Astartes are 9 feet high...

You know what came first? The game. These days, people's perception is formed 90% by outsourced publications, as outlets such as Black Library offer far more "fluff food" for the fans to digest.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What we know is that the Space Marines have incredibly durable armor that, in the official fluff, is proof against las fire, shuriken catapults, splinter cannons, etc.

Quotes or it didn't happen.
I have noticed numerous times how people claim some silly stuff when in fact the studio material tells the story a little bit differently. The only way to rule this out would be to compare sources directly. And I mean directly, book name and page number, for wikis such as Lexicanum are quite vulnerable to editor interpretation and thus personal preferences as well.

The same goes for that wall of Epic Moments™ you posted, by the way. Although I will add that it's not even worth argueing about those, since every single army has Epic Moments™ in their book. Oh, wait, I forgot you chose to discard these for your consistency. Either way, individual events do not make a standard - the likelihood for them to be exceptions from the rule is way too high, especially when they are listed under a label like "Famous Battles" (5E Codex). Want to take a guess why they are so famous?
Events like those only serve to showcase what might be possible, yet should in no way be taken for granted. For example, I don't think any Battle Sister would be able to go mano-a-mano against a Hive Tyrant and slay him in close combat just because Praxedes did, just like I don't think just anyone could strangle a Night Lords Legion Chaos Space Marine Lord just because Straken did.

Anyways, I'm sure you have seen this one before, but here's a quote from the Angels of Death Codex addressing the properties of Space Marine power armour. Not some exceptional individual event but a general description of universal validity:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- 2E C:AoD, p8

So, I'll be waiting on that quote about how power armour is 100% impenetrable to lasguns now.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But nowhere do we see the Marines throwing off armies that outnumber them by many multiples, which we see all the time in the fluff.

What you fail to realize is that this goes for all the armies on the tabletop and their fluff, so the TT really is the most "narratively balanced" depiction simply because everybody gets treated the same way, for once. No faction blindness, no epic tales showing you the exception from the norm. Just cold, hard numbers.

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But nowhere do we see the Marines throwing off armies that outnumber them by many multiples, which we see all the time in the fluff.

What you fail to realize is that this goes for all the armies on the tabletop and their fluff, so the TT really is the most "narratively balanced" depiction simply because everybody gets treated the same way, for once. No faction blindness, no epic tales showing you the exception from the norm. Just cold, hard numbers.

CSM Pg 34-35.

Milisim wrote:Its because SM players don't want to use anything associated with anybody else. They are ELITE and get their own gear.

Also it would be cheaper for a player with IG and SM so GW makes a seperate model to force you to buy MORE.

shocking I know!

Actually, Imperial Guard used to have Rhinos. Then the Chimera was "discovered"...

IIRC the Chimera is not a recovered STC it was actually invented on one of the forge worlds. (if that is the case I am as shocked as you are)

Fido198674 wrote:CSM Pg 34-35.

Raptors and Obliterators? What are you trying to say?

razor5647 wrote:IIRC the Chimera is not a recovered STC it was actually invented on one of the forge worlds. (if that is the case I am as shocked as you are)

Possible! This would explain why the Rhino was so widespread back then and not yet used in conjunction with the Chimaera.
Although it sounds weird for the AdMech to "invent" anything completely anew ... perhaps rather retro-engineered from some STC? A distant cousin of the Rhino? Was the Chimaera ever explained in as much detail as the Rhino?

Lynata wrote:

Fido198674 wrote:CSM Pg 34-35.

Raptors and Obliterators? What are you trying to say?

I meant Codex Space Marine ...I'm sorry about that.... but there are plenty of examples in there of SM chapters getting torn up (In the "Offical Fluff"). That one and the Battle for Macragge pop out the most in my head.

Fido198674 wrote:I meant Codex Space Marine ...I'm sorry about that.... but there are plenty of examples in there of SM chapters getting torn up (In the "Offical Fluff"). That one and the Battle for Macragge pop out the most im my head.

Wow, you had me all confused there.
Aye, most Chapters have some defeats or at least "expensive victories" on their scorecard - this, too, is important for a narrative balance. I think many of GW's own writers recognize the need for it in order to prevent the Space Marines from appearing too much over the top.
Now, that's just a personal opinion of course, but even the heroes need to get beaten from time to time, right?

Lynata wrote:

Fido198674 wrote:I meant Codex Space Marine ...I'm sorry about that.... but there are plenty of examples in there of SM chapters getting torn up (In the "Offical Fluff"). That one and the Battle for Macragge pop out the most im my head.

Wow, you had me all confused there.
Aye, most Chapters have some defeats or at least "expensive victories" on their scorecard - this, too, is important for a narrative balance. I think many of GW's own writers recognize the need for it in order to prevent the Space Marines from appearing too much over the top.
Now, that's just a personal opinion of course, but even the heroes need to get beaten from time to time, right?

LOL Never! Calgar shall never be defeated!

well it looks like the chimera is defiantly not an STC design as it appeared some time after the great crusade and I can find no mention of an STC which is an absolute certainty among mass produced stuff (if it is in fact STC) all I can find on its origin is that it was first produced on forgeworld Gryphonne IV and has since been redesigned to have many weapon systems (hellhound, manticore) and is produced on virtually all capable imperial worlds.

Lynata wrote:[

Veteran Sergeant wrote:We're talking about official fluff, not Black Library novels.

All fluff is "official", it comes down to individual visions, or "alternate realities" if you will.
But thanks for clarifying (or rather declaring) what "we" are talking about, for nobody in this thread has done that so far. Makes a debate much more easier.

Ahh semantics. You knew what I was talking about. But hey, disrespectfully deflecting the argument with semantics is par for the course with you.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines routinely do with hundreds what tens of thousands of Guardsmen fail to.

And Guard regiments routinely do what Space Marines fail to. Both organisations have their modus operandi - the Astartes are the shock troops, useful for when you need to focus as much power as possible onto a very small spot, whereas the Imperial Guard gets called in when the enemy becomes too much for the Marines to handle.

"Often a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In such a case mobility counts for very little. In conflicts such as this, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe. The ultimate fighting machine, its task is to hold a front line that stretches across the stars, to wage war for decades or centuries if need be, to act as the bastion of the Imperium against the massed hordes arrayed against Mankind."
- 2E C:IG, p4

And then of course we have this saying from Primarch Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists:
"Give me a hundred space marines, or failing that, give me a thousand other troops."
- 4E C:SM

With this ratio alone, your claim pretty much lost all its weight. I trust a Primarch to know the capabilities of his Space Marines better than you.

My claim is refuted by irrelevant evidence and an anecdotal quote?

How is the claim that there are situations that are best suited for the Imperial Guard (duh) refute the idea that there are other situations, in fact quite a few of them, documented, where a small force of Marines achieved an absurd kill ratio? I should have been more specific. You need to offer relevant quotes. Sorry. Not just any quotes. I should have been clearer.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What we know is that sometimes the writers of other armies' fluff pander to their audience by allowing them to win handily against Space Marines who should have been smarter, or tougher, had they been written consistent to the fluff.

Of course when the Marines get owned it's a mistake,

That's not what I said, at all. You know this. But disrespectfully, and intentionally misinterpreting what I say is par for the course with you.

I recommend you discard the Astartes Goggles, f

Disrespectful personal attacks, attempting to undermine my opinion by calling me a fanboy instead of addressing my points with reasonable argument is par for the course with you.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The fluff came before the perception. That's why the perception exists in the first place.

Right, that must be why every second Marine fanboy thinks the Astartes are 9 feet high...

Again, irrelevant. Please address the actual point, instead of deflecting. You can't refute what I said, so instead you turn it into something else. Nice. Sorta amateur, definitely disrespectful, but effective when trying to confuse other posters.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What we know is that the Space Marines have incredibly durable armor that, in the official fluff, is proof against las fire, shuriken catapults, splinter cannons, etc.

Quotes or it didn't happen.

Gave several. Apparently you chose not to quote them and then hilariously claim they didn't exist. Now that is funny. Find any of the above references on a Lexicanum or Wiki article. They all came right out of the books. Suggesting that I didn't go first hand to the sourcebook is disrespectful, especially since you know that I have copies of all of those books and have demonstrated in in the past on multiple occasions. Asking me for page citations is usually legitimate, but dishonest in this case since we know you know better. But again, disrespect is par for the course with you.

The same goes for that wall of Epic Moments™ you posted, by the way. Although I will add that it's not even worth argueing about those, since every single army has Epic Moments™ in their book. Oh, wait, I forgot you chose to discard these for your consistency.

Why would I include them? We aren't trying to prove the fluff says something about those races. We're proving what the fluff says, consistently, about Space Marines.

Either way, individual events do not make a standard

Good thing I took them from six different Codex books from three different editions of the game. So yeah, they're pretty much standard.

especially when they are listed under a label like "Famous Battles" (5E Codex). Want to take a guess why they are so famous?

What does the fame of a battle have to do with how tough the individual Marines are listed as? I mean, okay, eliminate the Battle of Armageddon reference of the Blood Angels kill ration, and then explain how the reference to the grievous bone sword wound surviving Wolf Guard, multiple Apsect Warrior wound taking Sergeant, or heck, the reference to generic Marines taking direct hits and shrugging them off has anything to do with fame. Especially since the most important reference was from the Dark Eldar book, and not from the Space Marines book. We'll wait. I won't start the timer quite yet as a courtesy.

I don't think just anyone could strangle a Night Lords Legion Chaos Space Marine Lord just because Straken did.

That's why not just anyone did. Straken, on the other hand, has an absurdly strong cybernetic body that is reflected both in the fluff, and on the table top. That's why he can do it. Good lord that was a horrible analogy.

Anyways, I'm sure you have seen this one before, but here's a quote from the Angels of Death Codex addressing the properties of Space Marine power armour. Not some exceptional individual event but a general description of universal validity:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium."
- 2E C:AoD, p8

So, I'll be waiting on that quote about how power armour is 100% impenetrable to lasguns now.

Nobody ever said that. And if they did, it wasn't me.

Here's the problem with your example. A reduction of 50-85% doesn't tell us what the base chance of injury rate is, nor specifies that the chance of injury equates to an incapacitating wound. What the examples that I provided showed was that the Space Marine armor was able to stop most rounds, and then said that even the rounds that managed to penetrate were incapable of producing debilitating injuries. What we do know from multiple tabletop game book fluff stories (I specified it to save you the disrespectful semantics arguments) about Space Marines, is that they take injuries and keep going. So even if you're wounding a Space Marine, he isn't stopped most of the time. His secondary organs, or healing modifications take over and put him back into the fight with almost no stoppage. The durability of Space Marines lies not just in the power armor, but in the Marine himself in conjunction with that armor.

Of course, a smart cookie like me realizes that 50-85% is a 35% range, giving an average protection of 17.5% which is slightly higher than 4/6, which is the save possibility of Power Armor against weapons with no save modifier. A smarter cookie would realize that there's a probably a significance to the fact that while Games Workshop is notorious for lazy copy pasting of old fluff to new books, that little tidbit hasn't been repeated in any other book, ever, in almost 20 years between when that book was published, and now. But hey. I'm sure what's written in that book is incontrovertible since it supports your position, where all the other evidence is just pandering and hype. I mean, it's got math in it.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But nowhere do we see the Marines throwing off armies that outnumber them by many multiples, which we see all the time in the fluff.

What you fail to realize is that this goes for all the armies on the tabletop and their fluff,

I'd like to see even one example where an outnumbered force of Orks did something amazing on even close to the level of the Space Marine exploits. Please. Please find me this reference.

the TT really is the most "narratively balanced" depiction simply because everybody gets treated the same way, for once. No faction blindness, no epic tales showing you the exception from the norm. Just cold, hard numbers.

However this idea is patently absurd. It's so bad, it actually made me smile at my desk. So I thank you for that. The tabletop game is actually quite ludicrous. The idea that evenly balanced forces would ever meet on neutral terrain and slug it out over randomized objectives is laughable. That never happens in real life, and it never even happens in the game's fluff. Again, the game is a game, and its rules are designed so that players have a system for creating an entertaining night of dice rolling and model moving. Heck, 6th Edition even made the implicit statement of "This is designed to play for fun" and not for competition, or realism. Everything about how the armies fight on the tabletop is wrong on every possible level according to any common sense laws of strategy and tactics. It's just an approximate set of rules to let you fight battles in a pretend universe over a reasonable duration of time and given a simple enough rule set that it can be played by relatively small children. Nobody looks at the rules for Flames of War and says "That's how WW2 actually was". It's just a way for players to take their favorite vintage tanks and tiny infantry and play some reasonable approximations of battles. And that's what the rules are for 40K. Reasonable approximations to allow people to take their favorite 40K factions and fight pretend battles. This is so overwhelmingly true about every tabletop wargame ever made, back to Checkers or Go, that it's astounding that you'd even make such a statement. Detailed wargames systems can take days to fight even small historical reenactments. 40K is balanced to be played in a couple hours. A balance that falls so horribly to pieces at higher points, that the rulebook for Apocalypse even tells you that it's gonna get stupid really fast, but hey, giant tanks and titans! "Narratively balanced". Of course it is if you're playing within the precise range it has been written with in mind. The rules are artificially balanced to make the game playable. Of course any story that you invent according to those rules will be balanced. Balanced story comes form balanced rules. What does that possibly have to do with how it relates to the fluff? Still nothing.

We're talking about official fluff, not Black Library novels.

So current codexs and 6th ed. rulebook?

That's kinda limited and boring. BL books are what make the universe more full of life.

Don't some codexs copy-paste right from BL publications?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But nowhere do we see the Marines throwing off armies that outnumber them by many multiples, which we see all the time in the fluff.

What you fail to realize is that this goes for all the armies on the tabletop and their fluff,

I'd like to see even one example where an outnumbered force of Orks did something amazing on even close to the level of the Space Marine exploits. Please. Please find me this reference.

Farsight

DeffDred wrote:

We're talking about official fluff, not Black Library novels.

So current codexs and 6th ed. rulebook?

That's kinda limited and boring. BL books are what make the universe more full of life.

Don't some codexs copy-paste right from BL publications?

I only made that mention because Lynata is a painfully boring and predictable poster, and will bring up if I don't make very clear what is being talked about is solely the official fluff produced solely for the tabletop game.


Honestly, this is one of the dumber conversations I've gotten dragged into. It's such a painfully obvious situation to pretty much anyone. I only replied because Lynata likes to complain that I'm mean to her, so I just wanted to show how she is consistently disrespectful and intentionally deceptive and dishonest in her posts, so it's somewhat silly to get mad at me if I have been rude in return in the past. This time, though, I just chose to point out the rude behavior rather than just be rude in return, as little fun as that is.

I personally don't care about the differentiation between BL and GW fluff. It's all pretty silly. And it's all just designed to sell plastic toy soldiers. Space Marines sell lots of models because they are cool looking and described in the fluff as being awesome, all the time. The other armies sell lots of models because GW has figured out how to make them seem kinda awesome too. Now, do the Spess Mahreens always win? No. But it's just silly to pretend that they aren't enormously better in the fluff than they are on the tabletop. And it's silly to pretend that the tabletop game is supposed to be an accurate representation of the fluff. One is a series of stories told to sell plastic toy soldiers. The other is a game designed to sell plastic toy soldiers. The commonality? Selling plastic toy soldiers.

Everything in 40K exists to get blown up by Space Marines. I know this fact irritates a lot of players who don't play Space Marines. (I don't even play Space Marines anymore I just build them because it's fun converting the hell out of them. I like the Tyranids). But it's the simple truth. Complaining about it doesn't help. Pretending it isn't the truth is even less useful. However, if nobody buys anything other than Space Marines, the game is just Space Marines blowing eachother up. And despite the jokes that say that's more or less what 40K is these days anyway, GW still likes to sell all those fancy aliens and zombiebots and space elves, and the game wouldn't exist without them either. So, the Space Marines are awesome in the game, but not too awesome. Because, like I said, if the Space Marines are as awesome as they are supposed to be, then the game is no fun.

We're talking about a simplistic tabletop game. Alternating turns, very generic movement, very generic damage and save rolls, very generic combat rules using probabilities that can only be generated by rolling six sided dice. That's it, lol. This is a game designed for little kids to play after convincing their parents to buy them a bunch of plastic toy soldiers. Then, as the little kids grow up, they nostalgically buy more of those sweet ass plastic toy soldiers because GW has made new ones, and the rules have changed to make those new ones better and more desirable.

Pada wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But nowhere do we see the Marines throwing off armies that outnumber them by many multiples, which we see all the time in the fluff.

What you fail to realize is that this goes for all the armies on the tabletop and their fluff,

I'd like to see even one example where an outnumbered force of Orks did something amazing on even close to the level of the Space Marine exploits. Please. Please find me this reference.

Farsight

Also some things are ridiculous beyond belief, see Maugan Ra vs Tyranid Swarm

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Ahh semantics. You knew what I was talking about. But hey, disrespectfully deflecting the argument with semantics is par for the course with you.

Oh, I had a guess what you were talking about. I just consider it a "tactical advantage" pointing out negative behaviour such as, say, arrogance or obvious bias.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How is the claim that there are situations that are best suited for the Imperial Guard (duh) refute the idea that there are other situations, in fact quite a few of them, documented, where a small force of Marines achieved an absurd kill ratio?

An "absurd kill ratio" was never put into question, was it? Their invulnerability as perceived by a certain segment of the fanbase was.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:That's not what I said, at all. You know this.

That is exactly what you said. If you don't even notice it - like you did not notice your insults in the past - there is nothing I can do about it other than pointing it out.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Disrespectful personal attacks, attempting to undermine my opinion by calling me a fanboy instead of addressing my points with reasonable argument is par for the course with you.

I did address your points. If you don't want to recognize that and sweep any rebuttal aside with a general claim about "irrelevant evidence and anecdocal quotes" then that is, again, not something I can do anything about. I'm sure any readers following the debate will be able to form their own opinion from what the two of us have presented. I do not care any longer what you think.

As for "disrespectful personal attacks", I don't see anything as disrespectful as what you have tossed at me in the past. Or now, for that matter.
Claiming I fail at reading, that I am somehow disrespectful (coming from you!), insinuating an inferior intelligence on my part, calling me an amateur and a liar ... if I'd not be convinced that your petty and unfounded stabs actually work in my favour, I suppose I could have reported some of those. At least ever since it became a habit of yours whenever our opinions clash.

I'm not quite sure what triggered this, actually. Is it because I called you out on your erroneous claims regarding SoB Acts of Faith? After all, you were still clinging to your own opinion and attempted to spread it in other threads even after I delivered those Codex quotes to you. That's about the only possible origin of this kind of hostility that springs to mind.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Gave several. Apparently you chose not to quote them and then hilariously claim they didn't exist.

The single quote actually adressing my point was about splinter weaponry only, and then basically contradicted itself when it mentioned Marines being injured by direct hits. My own statement as well as the citations I delivered to strengthen my point was that the resilience of power armour is generally overrated and, by admission of the studio fluff itself, quite in line with what we see on the tabletop, which you failed to counter so far.
I'm sorry. Maybe I should have been clearer.

For the sake of completion, perhaps it is also worth pointing out that the Salamander Space Marines you mentioned in this citation lost more than half their men - almost three companies - in that fight. And it would have been more, had Vect actually planned to kill them rather than simply using them as a tool to eliminate a political rival.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Asking me for page citations is usually legitimate, but dishonest in this case since we know you know better. But again, disrespect is par for the course with you.

Again with the "we"? Who elected you to be the arbiter of fluff and respect around here, anyways? It is also interesting how requesting a source for your claims is supposed to be "dishonest". If you expect me to believe something just because you typed it, you are mistaken. I do not consider you reliable enough for that. I'm sure the feeling is mutual, so we understand each other, yes?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Why would I include them? We aren't trying to prove the fluff says something about those races. We're proving what the fluff says, consistently, about Space Marines.

Occasionally, these Epic Moments of other races may include the defeat of Space Marines, and as such I would have considered them a worthy addition to a debate on them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Good thing I took them from six different Codex books from three different editions of the game. So yeah, they're pretty much standard.

If a dozen famous legends from 10.000 years of Imperial history might qualify as a "standard" to you, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:What does the fame of a battle have to do with how tough the individual Marines are listed as?

That many of them became famous specifically because the Marines involved rose above expectations, be it due to circumstances or exceptional leadership. Since expectations are formed from standards, I'm sure you see where this is going.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:That's why not just anyone did. Straken, on the other hand, has an absurdly strong cybernetic body that is reflected both in the fluff, and on the table top. That's why he can do it. Good lord that was a horrible analogy.

Straken is a natural-born Catachan who simply happens to have a bionic arm. I fail to see why this is such a "horrible analogy". Give Harker a bionic arm, too, and you've got another one like him.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Nobody ever said that. And if they did, it wasn't me.

Quite a lot of people say this around here, regularly. With your claim about power armour being "las proof", you sounded a lot like them.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Here's the problem with your example. A reduction of 50-85% doesn't tell us what the base chance of injury rate is

100%? ("duh")
Unless you think that Marine skin is "las proof", too.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:So even if you're wounding a Space Marine, he isn't stopped most of the time.

See, at last we can agree on Space Marines actually getting wounded. That not every shot is an instakill is a concept which I have propagated myself in the past - the only thing left open is how many injuries a Marine will take until he is at least neutralized, if not killed. The way I see it, it could happen with the first shot (if it was a lucky hit - say, a blast to the face?), or maybe it takes two or three. Either way, if you agree that lasguns can wound Marines in the fluff, then they can potentially also kill Marines in the fluff. Exactly like they do in the TT.

This fluff was written after the rules and to reflect and accompany them, anyways, so of course it would not claim invincibility when Marines can get shot by Guardsmen in the game. That would be pretty silly and not serve any purpose other than to create confusion amongst the players.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The durability of Space Marines lies not just in the power armor, but in the Marine himself in conjunction with that armor.

Yes, I have said that myself many times over. Of course, durability =/= invincibility. Anything that can be wielded as a weapon in the tabletop has some chance to kill a Marine, so this goes for the fluff also. At times, some players just claim it were otherwise.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:A smarter cookie would realize that there's a probably a significance to the fact that while Games Workshop is notorious for lazy copy pasting of old fluff to new books, that little tidbit hasn't been repeated in any other book, ever, in almost 20 years between when that book was published, and now. But hey. I'm sure what's written in that book is incontrovertible since it supports your position, where all the other evidence is just pandering and hype. I mean, it's got math in it.

And math is generally better than exceptional one-offs, yup.
An even smarter cookie might also realize that GW has generally scaled the amount of "hard numbers" back in recent years to allow for increased leeway in perception, possibly to accomodate for the wide range of interpretations held by fans and outsourced writers alike. Me, I'm seeing no reason to discard something just because it's old, when it has never been overridden by something newer, and still fits perfectly into the setting.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'd like to see even one example where an outnumbered force of Orks did something amazing on even close to the level of the Space Marine exploits. Please. Please find me this reference.

The Third War of Armageddon. Personally, I find it incredible how just 2-3 million Orks could plunge an entire sector into a war that was so horrible that they needed more than 152.000 Space Marines to help out. In addition to all the Imperial Guard regiments and Hive militias on-site. And the best thing? The war is still ongoing.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:However this idea is patently absurd. It's so bad, it actually made me smile at my desk. So I thank you for that. The tabletop game is actually quite ludicrous. The idea that evenly balanced forces would ever meet on neutral terrain and slug it out over randomized objectives is laughable.

Again you seem to have completely missed the point I was trying to make. Or you are ignoring it on purpose - the sarcasm you display does seems to hint at a self-perceived lack of compelling arguments, so you are resulting to "different ammunition".
But I shall clarify further: In this sense, I do not value the tabletop for any battles of armies whose strength is balanced towards each other using arbitrary point values, nor do I care for any objectives. I value the tabletop for giving us hard stats for the various units. Naturally, the range of abstraction makes direct insights impractical if not impossible, but what they do allow us to do is compare who is stronger than what, and who can get killed by what and how easily (or how difficult).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Again, the game is a game, and its rules are designed so that players have a system for creating an entertaining night of dice rolling and model moving.

Correct. And the fluff is designed so that players have a narrative framework erected around the very same rules. They do not exist apart from them, they are a part of the greater whole.

From the Open Day report here on dakka:
Q: Why include so much hobby and fluff info in the rulebook?
A: All three commented on the importance of seeing the hobby as a whole. A new player to 40k would grasp the broad depth of the hobby in one mighty tome. Again, Jervis mentioned the significance of adding ‘weight’ to the game and posited that all aspects were synonymous. In the opinion of the designers, the fluff adds an important aspect to the game as it puts the whole experience into context and provides a rich narrative for the tabletop game itself.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Honestly, this is one of the dumber conversations I've gotten dragged into.

This goes for me also. I should just have ignored a post like that when it comes from you. Unfortunately, I failed to remember past experiences in time.

You can't compare chimera turret weapons with predator ones, they are likely to be very different sizes in "real life".

cadbren wrote:You can't compare chimera turret weapons with predator ones, they are likely to be very different sizes in "real life".

Nope, Forgeworld has stats with Autocannon Chimera Turrets. It can also have a Heavy Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Twin-linked Heavy Bolter (which from IA1 seems to be the Standard Weapon, neat how fluff changes) and the Trusty Multi-laser.

I believe we can discount the rules to have any credibility when informing us of the capabilities of the space marines. A SM Battle Company in the game comes about to be only about 3000 points, less than what a full Death Corp of Krieg company is worth when translated to the game.

As far as a Space Marine Company actually using Rhinos rather than a chimera. I think a Astartes Rhino would probably be larger than a regular sisters or Arbitor Rhino. As far as their tactical use they can quickly transport a squad and be airlifted. Space Marines also don't need to have that much fire support for their APC. A space marine sitting in a turret of a chimera could be maneuvering with the rest of the squad and easily handling the same weapon systems that are mounted on the turrets of chimeras.

Lastly, when asking why a military unit does or does not adopt a certain doctrine or equipment we must remember that there are other factors involved in their decisions that we do not take into consideration. The Astartes have a very ancient and specific way they fight, that has worked well over the last ten millennium. The space marine method of fighting is based around infantry, supported by Dreadnoughts (really big infantry) and a few tanks that provide mobile fire support. Therefor space marines focus on using vehicles that are solely based on getting troops to the front line. Even if a Rhino is lacking in their ability to provide fire support, it would probably be invaluable in providing logistical support. Bolter Rounds, grenades, batteries for chainswords and fuel for jump packs or flamers are all expended at a breathtaking rate during an advance of the sleepless warriors. Having a vehicle that can resupply a squad during the assault, even if it does nothing else, would be a tremendous force multiplier.

 Ligonatus wrote:
I believe we can discount the rules to have any credibility when informing us of the capabilities of the space marines. A SM Battle Company in the game comes about to be only about 3000 points, less than what a full Death Corp of Krieg company is worth when translated to the game.

I've been using forgeword fluff.

As far as a Space Marine Company actually using Rhinos rather than a chimera. I think a Astartes Rhino would probably be larger than a regular sisters or Arbitor Rhino. As far as their tactical use they can quickly transport a squad and be airlifted. Space Marines also don't need to have that much fire support for their APC. A space marine sitting in a turret of a chimera could be maneuvering with the rest of the squad and easily handling the same weapon systems that are mounted on the turrets of chimeras.

Chimera is larger then the Rhino

Lastly, when asking why a military unit does or does not adopt a certain doctrine or equipment we must remember that there are other factors involved in their decisions that we do not take into consideration. The Astartes have a very ancient and specific way they fight, that has worked well over the last ten millennium. The space marine method of fighting is based around infantry, supported by Dreadnoughts (really big infantry) and a few tanks that provide mobile fire support. Therefor space marines focus on using vehicles that are solely based on getting troops to the front line. Even if a Rhino is lacking in their ability to provide fire support, it would probably be invaluable in providing logistical support. Bolter Rounds, grenades, batteries for chainswords and fuel for jump packs or flamers are all expended at a breathtaking rate during an advance of the sleepless warriors. Having a vehicle that can resupply a squad during the assault, even if it does nothing else, would be a tremendous force multiplier.

Chimera are also mobile depots, which can supply troops. And what is a bigger force multiplication. A weaponless box, or a box that can provide fire support. Answer is: A box that can provide fire support. Go read the Codex: Space Marines Razorback section. A Chimer is pretty much a Razorback with 10 man capacity, and can have the turret weapon of a predator.

Basically its what everyones been saying, its a metal box designed to get marines from point A to point B. Marines are meant to be deployed straight into the thick of the fighting, so tell me would you like to be stuck in a tank in the middle of the red square with only 1 back door hatch to get out of or would you rather have 3 doors where you have a more tacitcal decision of which way you'll get out of? As for fire powers sake a rhino can easily be equiped to face any form of operation, its not capable in the game but you could easily turn the storm bolter into a combi bolter, combi plasma, combi melta, or combi flamer, and for heavier tanks a hunter killer missile can be attached A chimera has bigger guns for sure but only in it's frontal arc, that tank has so many blind spots i wouldn't trust my life in that thing. And for technology wise a rhino can be converted in so many ways, namely the blood angels lucifer engined rhinos, you never hear about chimeras ever going that fast or even having the capability. A chimera cannot repair itself on the battlefield like a rhino, a rhino is more compact and easier to carry than a chimera, namely the transporter thunderhawk capable of carrying 2 rhinos compared to the guards skytalon who can' teven carry a chimera. Personally to me a chimera is a much bigger target than a rhino aswell, the bigger guns make them more of a threat so a ton of more lead will be thrown at it.

In the end wiether i was a guardsman or a space marine i would put my life in the hands of a rhino over a chimera anyday

The whole "Marines only need to get from A to B" argument is effectively killed by the Razorback. If they didn't need an IFV, why do they have one? The Chimera combines the transport capacity and tactical flexiblity of the Rhino with the weapon systems of the Razorback. You may lose out on the self repair, but you do gain the ability to not be stopped by a river.

And if the Skytalon was the size of the Thunderhawk it could carry a few chimeras. A Skytalon is based on the Valkyire, which is roughly the size of the Storm Raven. It is like you don't know the fluff Riddick40k. A Chimera can be equipped with a Turret mounted Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, and Autocannons. Plus it has a hull mounted Heavy Bolter or a HEavy Flamer. Please Explain how that is not superior to the Rhino's Storm Bolter. Did I miss the fluff where the storm bolters are now more powerful then an autocannon? As for the hatch I would trade that in an instant to have a transport that can actually support the attack, rather then be a pop gun armed liability.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
The whole "Marines only need to get from A to B" argument is effectively killed by the Razorback. If they didn't need an IFV, why do they have one? The Chimera combines the transport capacity and tactical flexiblity of the Rhino with the weapon systems of the Razorback. You may lose out on the self repair, but you do gain the ability to not be stopped by a river.

And if the Skytalon was the size of the Thunderhawk it could carry a few chimeras. A Skytalon is based on the Valkyire, which is roughly the size of the Storm Raven. It is like you don't know the fluff Riddick40k. A Chimera can be equipped with a Turret mounted Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, and Autocannons. Plus it has a hull mounted Heavy Bolter or a HEavy Flamer. Please Explain how that is not superior to the Rhino's Storm Bolter. Did I miss the fluff where the storm bolters are now more powerful then an autocannon? As for the hatch I would trade that in an instant to have a transport that can actually support the attack, rather then be a pop gun armed liability.

And to me it seems like no matter what anyone says you'll be dead set on this chimera fantasy of yours. It's not going to happen so why even bother with posting?

No one has managed to convince me the Rhino is better. Ill list the reasons again.
+Better Front Armor
+Better Weaponry
+Better Transport Capacity.
+Amphibious

Rhino
+Better Side Armor
+ Has two side doors (Personally I dont see this as better)
+ Slightly more Durable

So the elite of the Imperium has a need for an IFV. That is why they have the Razorback. With me so far? So they reduce the seats in a Rhino by 40% to make room for a turret. However, all they had to do was slightly modify the Chimera, and have a more effective IFV. It would also make the Autocannon predator redundant due to a Chimera can have an Autocannon and a Heavy Bolter, plus can still transport troops.

So how is this a fantasy Riddick40k? I've listed good solid fluff points to why the Chimera is better, and you've replied with inaccurate information and then when called out on it you refuse to address the points.

With that said the only reason why the Space Marines use it is due to tradition, which for 40k makes alot of sense.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
No one has managed to convince me the Rhino is better. Ill list the reasons again.
+Better Front Armor
+Better Weaponry
+Better Transport Capacity.
+Amphibious

Rhino
+Better Side Armor
+ Has two side doors (Personally I dont see this as better)
+ Slightly more Durable

So the elite of the Imperium has a need for an IFV. That is why they have the Razorback. With me so far? So they reduce the seats in a Rhino by 40% to make room for a turret. However, all they had to do was slightly modify the Chimera, and have a more effective IFV. It would also make the Autocannon predator redundant due to a Chimera can have an Autocannon and a Heavy Bolter, plus can still transport troops.

So how is this a fantasy Riddick40k? I've listed good solid fluff points to why the Chimera is better, and you've replied with inaccurate information and then when called out on it you refuse to address the points.

With that said the only reason why the Space Marines use it is due to tradition, which for 40k makes alot of sense.

So its a fantasy, they won't break tradition and the rhino will always be used over a chimera. nough said

And it only took four pages of debate to get this answer.

I think the real question is why are they using tanks at all in the 41st Millenium, considering their usefulness is being bought into question by the dawn of the 3rd Millenium.

I can finally post this!

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
The whole "Marines only need to get from A to B" argument is effectively killed by the Razorback. If they didn't need an IFV, why do they have one? The Chimera combines the transport capacity and tactical flexiblity of the Rhino with the weapon systems of the Razorback. You may lose out on the self repair, but you do gain the ability to not be stopped by a river.

And if the Skytalon was the size of the Thunderhawk it could carry a few chimeras. A Skytalon is based on the Valkyire, which is roughly the size of the Storm Raven. It is like you don't know the fluff Riddick40k. A Chimera can be equipped with a Turret mounted Multi-laser, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, and Autocannons. Plus it has a hull mounted Heavy Bolter or a HEavy Flamer. Please Explain how that is not superior to the Rhino's Storm Bolter. Did I miss the fluff where the storm bolters are now more powerful then an autocannon? As for the hatch I would trade that in an instant to have a transport that can actually support the attack, rather then be a pop gun armed liability.

I AGree entirley at my FLGS people have stopped taking Rhinos against my Guard army because of that . EAsy kill points , the Chimera is a FAR better platform and people who say otherwise are going looney about it -- a 35 point Rhino no upgrades vs a 55 Point Chimera with a Multilaser , Hull Heavy Bolter - For 20 extra points you get the killing power of an Infantry Section no supplement it this way , with a Rhino you can't be a mobile Bunker ( figurativly ) a Chimera can with its fire ports and top hatch supperiority , But Space Marines use the Rhino for the simple idea of its " What the Emperor used as toilet paper so we must drive it " , Ignorance of better equipment is what i think

Game mechanics aside.
Am I the only one who seems to think that the transport capabilities of the Chimera would be somewhat more limited, if said occupants were 7-8ft tall giants in power armour rather than humans with flak armour? I can quite easily imagine the Chimera having a transport capacity similar to a razorback, given that the RBack turret is largely external compared to the internal chimera turret.

It wouldn't surprise me if the command and control facilities on the rhino were better.

It also wouldn't surprise me if the rhino had specific equipment for maintainence and useage of power armour, data feeds etc.

Of course this is all assumption, but I see the rhino as an advanced piece of kit, instead of a Chimera which has probably been spot welded by a dodgy servitor.

That and half of the space marine tech is based upon the Rhino chassis. Why add in another item to supply for? When adapting an existing rhino to a predator, or vice versa is an option.

What do the FW books give us for the speeds of the vehicles?

Also just because marines have a razorback available, does not mean that it suddenly becomes essential over the rhino. So just because the marines have it does not dispel the notion that the chimera is better and more essential.

None of the fancy extras on the chimera will help you if it breaks.A rhino is much less likely to do that (more rugged, much better machine spirit) and it's even capable of repairing itself in the field. If a chimera breaks down, it's a mission-kill, but that matters a lot less when there are a hundred more behind it; like guardsmen, IG vehicles are mass-produced and largely expendable.

Since space marines operate in smaller numbers and often engage in more critical tasks, the rhino's reliability trumps the chimera's extra toys. Space marines have to be able to depend on every single piece of wargear they're taking to the field, and the rhino is the most reliable transport in the imperium.

If you could manufacture a chimera with the rhino's more advanced systems, I'm sure they'd use those, but you can't, because they're STC designs and nobody really understands how to make them anymore besides putting templates into constructors.

OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

I believe the Rhino is more preferred by Space Marines because they're an elite strikeforce that often deploys directly from orbit or within the stratosphere of the planet itself. Rhino's and Razorbacks are designed for short term use; hence the self-repair and bigger engine (since carrying Space Marines has got to be heavy work). Depending on the surface area of both vehicles, I'd imagine the Rhino being easier to store and maintain on a Battle Barge than a Chimera.

While Chimeras are built for round trips for armies that are stuck planetbound and have to answer threats at a distance. Adding to that are extra parts in the vehicle in case the vehicle becomes comprimised, medical and ammunition boxes, food supplies, and the ammunition closets for the turreted weapon. It probably has a smaller engine which allows it to traverse farther.

I think Space Marines don't use Chimeras because they just don't need it. Why replace something that you already have? Just look at their Drop Pods, Thunder Hawks, and Land Raiders; they need vehicles to disembark their troops, not cower in them like an armored bunker.

If it aint broke (in thousands of years) don't fix it. Plus it took ages for Space Marines to grudgingly accept the Razorback becuase compared to the Rhino it had not proved it's worth on countless battle fields and over time.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

Your confusing the Land Raiders ability to go under water with the Rhino. The entry on the Chimera makes it quite clear that it can easily go in dense forests, swamps, and cross rivers with ease. And this is terrain that an enemy commander thought would protect his flank, only to find guardsman pouring out of the Chimeras, in to the heart of the enemy. So the Imperial Guard has the mobility. So in your words "SUCK IT SPESS MAHREENS!"

Chimera are also outfitted with advanced Comms and auspex networks and make excellent command vehicles. Again this is fluff, not me making stuff up.

As for the size of the Space Marine, in Studio publications they are 7ft tall and somewhat stockier then a human. Which would probably allow 10 marines to ride in back. Then one marine can drive, and a servitor can man the guns.

The rhino is more rugged true, but not by much. The Chimera is also quite rugged and durable, but has greater mobility, especially in wet terrain.

So to summarize the thread, the Marines use a decent APC, that is considered Elite and prestigious, only due to tradition.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

Your confusing the Land Raiders ability to go under water with the Rhino. The entry on the Chimera makes it quite clear that it can easily go in dense forests, swamps, and cross rivers with ease. And this is terrain that an enemy commander thought would protect his flank, only to find guardsman pouring out of the Chimeras, in to the heart of the enemy. So the Imperial Guard has the mobility. So in your words "SUCK IT SPESS MAHREENS!"

Chimera are also outfitted with advanced Comms and auspex networks and make excellent command vehicles. Again this is fluff, not me making stuff up.

As for the size of the Space Marine, in Studio publications they are 7ft tall and somewhat stockier then a human. Which would probably allow 10 marines to ride in back. Then one marine can drive, and a servitor can man the guns.

The rhino is more rugged true, but not by much. The Chimera is also quite rugged and durable, but has greater mobility, especially in wet terrain.

So to summarize the thread, the Marines use a decent APC, that is considered Elite and prestigious, only due to tradition.

The chimera can go through woods and swamps, but no more or less effectively than anyother tracked vehicle. Dense woodland is dense woodland and restricts all equally since last I checked the chimera is neither a skimmer or Ethreal.
It does have the advantage of been Amphibious however, yet if your having to cross large bodies of water you have to ask just what are the marines doing.

As for chimera command vehivcles, the capability to stick an enhanced comms network for guard use, does not mean its compatable or even remotely useful for Marines who probably equally sophisticated systems in their helmets. If the chimera was advanced as your making out, then vehicles such as slamander command vehicles would be redundant.

In some publications marines are 8 or 9ft tall, stockier and encased in armour, no doubt restricted by thr turret operations on the interior. They are taller, stockier and with bulkier equipment. I'd put money on the rhino being compatable with the armour.

Also no it is not confusing the rhinos capabilities re under water. The rhino has electric motors and combustion enginesn if 1 is damaged a reduction in speed but they remaain operational. The combustion engine has o2 cylinders and the Rhino can close exhaust vents and still has O2 needed to run in a vacuum. So if it can run in a vacuum it can run underwater... Tell me the chimera can do that.

The chimera is a crude box. It fails to meet marines standards in that its useless in airless environments, hostile envronments, its good for deploying groundpounders where they need to be and backing them up with a bit of fire power.

The Rhino specialisies in ensuring its Cargo is deployed in any environment and circumstance. And should they need sone heavy fire support, there's razorbacks, land speeders, whirlwinds, and Devastators who just lined up a shot after deploying in a Rhino.

Eats humble pie lol. Well the Rhino trumps the Chimera any day, can the Chimera repair it's self maybe take brutal damage but come out victorious or has a machine spirit that can revenge it's dead crew huh huh! lol. Yea Space Marine trump Guard any day of the week but hey lets forget our differences we're warrior brothers on the same team, just keep that Chimera gak away from me eh lol.

 Eetion wrote:

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
OP - your cons pretty much some up why not plus they can be used in multiable battle environs including under water. Suck that Imperial Guard

Your confusing the Land Raiders ability to go under water with the Rhino. The entry on the Chimera makes it quite clear that it can easily go in dense forests, swamps, and cross rivers with ease. And this is terrain that an enemy commander thought would protect his flank, only to find guardsman pouring out of the Chimeras, in to the heart of the enemy. So the Imperial Guard has the mobility. So in your words "SUCK IT SPESS MAHREENS!"

Chimera are also outfitted with advanced Comms and auspex networks and make excellent command vehicles. Again this is fluff, not me making stuff up.

As for the size of the Space Marine, in Studio publications they are 7ft tall and somewhat stockier then a human. Which would probably allow 10 marines to ride in back. Then one marine can drive, and a servitor can man the guns.

The rhino is more rugged true, but not by much. The Chimera is also quite rugged and durable, but has greater mobility, especially in wet terrain.

So to summarize the thread, the Marines use a decent APC, that is considered Elite and prestigious, only due to tradition.

The chimera can go through woods and swamps, but no more or less effectively than anyother tracked vehicle. Dense woodland is dense woodland and restricts all equally since last I checked the chimera is neither a skimmer or Ethreal.
It does have the advantage of been Amphibious however, yet if your having to cross large bodies of water you have to ask just what are the marines doing.

As for chimera command vehivcles, the capability to stick an enhanced comms network for guard use, does not mean its compatable or even remotely useful for Marines who probably equally sophisticated systems in their helmets. If the chimera was advanced as your making out, then vehicles such as slamander command vehicles would be redundant.

In some publications marines are 8 or 9ft tall, stockier and encased in armour, no doubt restricted by thr turret operations on the interior. They are taller, stockier and with bulkier equipment. I'd put money on the rhino being compatable with the armour.

Also no it is not confusing the rhinos capabilities re under water. The rhino has electric motors and combustion enginesn if 1 is damaged a reduction in speed but they remaain operational. The combustion engine has o2 cylinders and the Rhino can close exhaust vents and still has O2 needed to run in a vacuum. So if it can run in a vacuum it can run underwater... Tell me the chimera can do that.

The chimera is a crude box. It fails to meet marines standards in that its useless in airless environments, hostile envronments, its good for deploying groundpounders where they need to be and backing them up with a bit of fire power.

The Rhino specialisies in ensuring its Cargo is deployed in any environment and circumstance. And should they need sone heavy fire support, there's razorbacks, land speeders, whirlwinds, and Devastators who just lined up a shot after deploying in a Rhino.

\

Please list fluff with the advanced AI, ability to fight under water. And if your going to dismiss the advanced comms in a chimera due to space marines have helmets, then I can dismiss the air tightness due to space marines have helmets, however please list the fluff for this claim. The Chimera is a rugged vehicle that works in the most HOSTILE of environments. Environments so hostile the enemy commander thought they where impenetrable and would protect their flanks. And the Chimera is capable of going through this environment and taking the flight to the enemy.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Eats humble pie lol. Well the Rhino trumps the Chimera any day, can the Chimera repair it's self maybe take brutal damage but come out victorious or has a machine spirit that can revenge it's dead crew huh huh! lol. Yea Space Marine trump Guard any day of the week but hey lets forget our differences we're warrior brothers on the same team, just keep that Chimera gak away from me eh lol.

The IoM would collapse in a week if there was no IG, stop being a space marine fanboy, seeing as again your talking about the Land Raider. And if your happy with an inferior APC when you could have a superior IFV then thats fine by me.

Yea me more than happy to have a Rhino. With no Space Marines the IoM wouldn't see out the day. Who says they have no machine spirit?

Considering that 99+% of the battles the IoM fights is fought by the Imperial Navy and Guard, I highly doubt that. Your fanboyism is getting the best of you. As studio fluff puts that a Space Marine is equal to 10 guardsmen, 1000 SM in a Chapter around 1000 chapters gives them a rough number of 1,000,000. Multiply that by 10, you got the equivalent of 10,000,000 Guardsmen. That isn't even the daily recruitment rate of the Imperial Guard. As for the Machine Spirit, all machines have them, from a water pump to a lasgun to an Emperor class Battleship. No fluff give the Rhino the abilities you keep describing,

Lexi to the rescue - yes they can do all I said, if they can fight in a vacum they can fight in water, they can do rudementry self repairs, and the machine spirit is more like a A.I. like a las carbine or a water pump...please, pull the other one it's got bells on.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Considering that 99+% of the battles the IoM fights is fought by the Imperial Navy and Guard, I highly doubt that. Your fanboyism is getting the best of you. As studio fluff puts that a Space Marine is equal to 10 guardsmen, 1000 SM in a Chapter around 1000 chapters gives them a rough number of 1,000,000. Multiply that by 10, you got the equivalent of 10,000,000 Guardsmen. That isn't even the daily recruitment rate of the Imperial Guard. As for the Machine Spirit, all machines have them, from a water pump to a lasgun to an Emperor class Battleship. No fluff give the Rhino the abilities you keep describing,

The thing is, while this makes sense it's said time and time again in official fluff that without the Adeptus Astartes the Imperium is doomed. So it's a bit of illogical canon, but still canon.

I think it would be boring if the Space Marines used chimeras. That's all that you would ever see on the board...

I always thought that rhinos were made out of some super alloy that wasn't really represented in the rules, but was assumed to take a licking better than the Chimera, or any guard vehicle. I could be wrong though.

The Rhino is modular too. A turret and sponsons can be mounted, as well as a variety of pintle mounted weapons, dozer blades, Vindicator weapons, rockets... basically everything in the armories. I take that as a sign that it has a powerful engine, and a simple integration system for new weapons.

Well the reason is uppose that is that they are a force Multiplier.

Without marines, behemouth wouldn't have been destroyed.
Armaggeddon would have fallen 3 times.
X number of Black Crusades successful.

And so on.

They turn the tide of crucial conflicts.

Will also reference my last post tommorrow.

ObliviousBlueCaboose - so I was right on BOTH counts then, why were you trying to prove me wrong when I was right and a quick cheek on lexi proved that. Dont let that Guardfanboyism go to your head and get the better of you now eh, now eat your humble pie and no custard for you.

MarsNZ wrote:
I think the real question is why are they using tanks at all in the 41st Millenium, considering their usefulness is being bought into question by the dawn of the 3rd Millenium.

Their usefulness is only doubted when there is no opposing armored force, and in the case of urban warfare.

In the case of fighting another major world power, tanks are still immensly useful.


Air power is very VERY expensive, particularly these super accurate missiles people rave about. The cost is going to be prohibitive in any armed conflict. To thepoint where the bulk of the work will still be done by boots on the ground and 30 ton armored vehicles.

Hey O.B.C. where have you run to? At least admit you were wrony after all that, all posts when you think your right but nothing when your not. Sore loser me thinks yah.

 Themanwiththeplan wrote:
Hey O.B.C. where have you run to? At least admit you were wrony after all that, all posts when you think your right but nothing when your not. Sore loser me thinks yah.

Sorry if I'm not on dakka 24/7 and have a life. As for the fact that I'm wrong, how so? You haven't posted any actual facts, and I have. I have proved that the Chimera is superior to the Rhino in all ways except for a few. It is all covered in my previous posts since I don't have the time to repeat myself to trolls.

I think this is where I better point out that for the vast majority of things in 40k, there is no "right" and "wrong" - only differing interpretations.

Let's not assume that the fans should be able to agree on any single one when not even the authors of the various books manage to do so. :3

And ofc, there's also the fact that fluff text and rules don't always go together. Whatever the rules give us is what we actually see on the table - the fluff is only flavor and oftentimes seems like blatant war propaganda.

 Grey Templar wrote:
In the case of fighting another major world power, tanks are still immensly useful.

Air power is very VERY expensive, particularly these super accurate missiles people rave about. The cost is going to be prohibitive in any armed conflict. To thepoint where the bulk of the work will still be done by boots on the ground and 30 ton armored vehicles.

I don't know about "immensely". Wacht am Rhein demonstrated pretty conclusively that the best tanks in the world won't help you if your enemy has air superiority, and we saw this again during Russia's intervention in the South Ossetia conflict where they lost a whole column of heavy armour to a single Georgian airstrike. There are certainly uses for tanks in the 21st century, but they're nothing like the essential weapon they used to be. Air power is definitely expensive, but so are a lot of modern tanks - they have to be to stay relevant. Their fuel consumption is astronomical and they're vulnerable to so many things.

I don't think they'll ever be obsolete, though, and they make plenty of sense in 40k.

 Lynata wrote:
I think this is where I better point out that for the vast majority of things in 40k, there is no "right" and "wrong" - only differing interpretations.

Let's not assume that the fans should be able to agree on any single one when not even the authors of the various books manage to do so. :3

I understand why you say that, but I think a limit should be placed.

For instance, if I say "The Grey Knights are secretly a cabal of Slaanesh-worshipping, Eldar-violating pedophiles", while I could theoretically base an army around that concept (And probably will at some point...), that "interpretation" of the fluff would still be, well, wrong.

Now claiming that the Grey Knights are Sister-butchering Khornettes on the other hand.

Also, they use the rhino because stfu and buy our models neckbeard.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Also, they use the rhino because stfu and buy our models neckbeard.

Valid Point.

 Grey Templar wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
I think the real question is why are they using tanks at all in the 41st Millenium, considering their usefulness is being bought into question by the dawn of the 3rd Millenium.

Their usefulness is only doubted when there is no opposing armored force, and in the case of urban warfare.

In the case of fighting another major world power, tanks are still immensly useful.


Air power is very VERY expensive, particularly these super accurate missiles people rave about. The cost is going to be prohibitive in any armed conflict. To thepoint where the bulk of the work will still be done by boots on the ground and 30 ton armored vehicles.

Whereas an illiterate guerilla with an RPG-7 and an afternoon's training can quickly spoil one of those 30-tonne vehicles, and probably costs less than one tank of said vehicles' gas.

It's more convenient. The Rhino chassis is used for loads of things, and the Space Marines lack the industrial engine that powers the IG. The versatility of the Rhino makes it more convenient to use.

text removed.
Reds8n

The purpose of this board is to allow people to discuss the background of the 40k setting.

It is not here to allow you to try and score points over each other or trade insults.