Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

 moom241 wrote:
I'm sorry, but if that's how female armor is, it's ridiculous. It's impractical, in how it protects and how it is made.

 KingDeath wrote:

Since female warriors in armour were quite rare there aren't too many pictures about them.

 Psienesis wrote:
Don't look at medieval art. Most of it was not realistic, simply because art mastery for realistic appearances had not been well-developed (case in point, look at the above-pictured woman's face. Are her eyes supposed to be on a flat plane on her skull?)

Go to a museum and look at the actual pieces of armor that survived. It's often designed (depending on region and era of origin) to show that, yes, the person wearing this suit of armor has breasts.

 LunaHound wrote:
Here is the question, why is everyone so worked up about the armor, and especially the chest part?

Why not get worked up on the thigh and leg armor too?
oh and the gauntlet as well?

 variable wrote:
I find the SoB armor overall to be a bit over the top. They are the Catachan equivalent of fetishizing the human body, only this case it's taking the Madonna-Whore thing and blending them all together. Anyone who knows Nuns and/or knows females in the various armed services knows that the extreme focus on looks exemplified by the sisters is nonexistent in any RL examples.

The model for the sisters is clearly nun/sex/fetish chic and designed to be sexy and titillating, so I have to reject any arguments that they dress that way because it's fantasy or fiction. While I've modeled females into my IG army as regular Guard troops (fatigues, no special emphasis on sex) I can think of a lot of ways GW could have gone with the sisters and still has a badass, fantasy collection of women warriors that don't resemble the very common dominatrix/nun fetish model.

 Kaldor wrote:
Regardless of the merits of boob-armour and how practical or effective it might be, the armour in the OP makes the warrior look chunky and fat, and not at all feminine.

One of the points of an all-woman army is that they are instantly recognizable as women. Boobs help in that regard.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Not to mention that having armour that deflects melee wepons towards your neck is a fast and sure way to become a martyr.

variable wrote:women warriors that don't resemble the very common dominatrix/nun fetish model.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The problem is that the way the SoB power armor is not designed for a standard view. It was built in that matter because of whole "Men under arms" Issue they have that the Church cannot have a standard army.
By showing that the SoB, the militant wing of the church is feminine and full female, it allows for them to continue to exploit that loophole.

 kenshin620 wrote:
I'm sure some of you have seen this fanart already but it got me thinking. If SoB were redesigned into a more modest armor, would they lose popularity? I'm not saying SoB players are a bunch of "chainmail bikini" lovers but I am curious to know what dakka thinks

I don't know how familiar you are with females in sci-fi and fantasy environments, but the SOB are very, very very far removed from the 'sexy and titillating' end of the spectrum...there's barely anything remotely feminine about them.

 variable wrote:

I don't know how familiar you are with females in sci-fi and fantasy environments, but the SOB are very, very very far removed from the 'sexy and titillating' end of the spectrum...there's barely anything remotely feminine about them.

I didn't say the Sisters were at the extreme end in Leia Slave Girl/Conan Minx in billowing veil, but I do think they fall well on the sexy side of the spectrum. Boobs, bobs, butts (where visible), long, shapely legs (and if chicks in skin tight leather/plate armor strutting their BFGs doesn't do it for you, well, if you're a straight dude you're in a very small club).

Seriously, Aeryn Sun, Chani from Lynch's Dune, Starbuck from SciFi BSG, Ivanova from B5... There are a ton of examples of very obviously female fighting women in science fiction before you even graze up against the line where your figures need DDD breasts, lipstick, perfectly coiffed hair and legs that would make a vegas showgirl look like Vina in her slave girl guise. There's no reason the Sisters couldn't have been modeled after a Fremen or Peacekeeper uniform if not to emphasize the womanly bits in totally unnecessary ways.

variable wrote:Seriously, Aeryn Sun, Chani from Lynch's Dune, Starbuck from SciFi BSG, Ivanova from B5... There are a ton of examples of very obviously female fighting women in science fiction before you even graze up against the line where your figures need DDD breasts, lipstick, perfectly coiffed hair and legs that would make a vegas showgirl look like Vina in her slave girl guise.

Madcat87 wrote:C) offers less protection, the curved breasts directing blades towards the throat and heart rather than away

 variable wrote:


I didn't say the Sisters were at the extreme end in Leia Slave Girl/Conan Minx in billowing veil, but I do think they fall well on the sexy side of the spectrum. Boobs, bobs, butts (where visible), long, shapely legs

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:
the over-sexualize version that we have today

 LunaHound wrote:
Anyone that is worried about the chest area been prone to extra damage are forgetting the un-helmeted SPace Marines :'D

Buttons wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Anyone that is worried about the chest area been prone to extra damage are forgetting the un-helmeted SPace Marines :'D

>Implying I don't stick helmets on all my marines.
I don't even play marines and this isn't 4chan, why am I trying to greentext? In all seriousness I stick helmets on all of my guardsmen except for one unit where everyone is helmetless because I wanted to get rid of my helmetless heads. I will eventually paint them and come up with some fluff for them, probably something incredibly stupid.

think you're exaggerating a bit. Where did you get the "DDD" size from, and what exactly is wrong with the SoB minis' legs now? Same with the hair; this kind of bob is probably one of the least difficult of all haircuts.

Consider this: The Sisters of Battle are the female equivalent to the Space Marines. Where Marines have their masculinity stressed, the Sisters do it with their femininity.

Do people perceive this as "wrong" because it sexualises them, or because it makes them more of a woman operating in a traditionally male area? Conversely, is it wrong that the Space Marines are sexualised? Few people criticise that, because strangely there it's okay, if not expected.

Really though, as mentioned by others, it's hard to distinguish women from men in bulky power armor at 28mm scale.

 variable wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Madcat87 wrote:C) offers less protection, the curved breasts directing blades towards the throat and heart rather than away

Again, the armour does come with a neckguard. It might also be worth pointing out that it would not be too difficult to reinforce that small area between the breasts you are convinced would invite more attacks. In fact, if you would actually look at the minis, ...

 Madcat87 wrote:


In one part he explains that a custom boob plate he had made for a women he is constantly worried that if she were to fall over the armour could crack her sternum.

THE ARMOUR ITSELF IS ACTUALLY A HEALTH HAZARD!

 LunaHound wrote:
D....K.... chan? is that you?

Nice try.

This is a female in my army

 variable wrote:
Yeah, but, no. Not really. There are plenty of good examples of female figures that don't go for Pole Dancer Chic to get their point across-besides

This doesn't look sexualized at all, anyone that says other wise bust be a

This is ironic, since the SoB range is one of those examples of female figures that don't go for pole dance chic.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

Since female warriors in armour were quite rare there aren't too many pictures about them.
The few i know about show them either in ringmail or rather "normal" ( that is, no boobarmour ) plate like this one

 LunaHound wrote:
If you increase the plate size from the upper torso up to the neck region, you can solve the problems mentioned, all at the same time still keeping the chest :'D

 DeffDred wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

Since female warriors in armour were quite rare there aren't too many pictures about them.
The few i know about show them either in ringmail or rather "normal" ( that is, no boobarmour ) plate like this one

I hope that's not Joan of Arc. There is only one known image of her from her life time and she wasn't depicted in armour.

She was carrying a banner, had long hair and massive bustline. However it was a drawing by a commoner.

I believe the book in which I learned this was Women Warriors or Warrior Women sorry I can't remember the author. Also explains the whole Amazon confusion pretty well.

 LunaHound wrote:
D....K.... chan? is that you?

Spoiler:

 KingDeath wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

Since female warriors in armour were quite rare there aren't too many pictures about them.
The few i know about show them either in ringmail or rather "normal" ( that is, no boobarmour ) plate like this one

I hope that's not Joan of Arc. There is only one known image of her from her life time and she wasn't depicted in armour.

She was carrying a banner, had long hair and massive bustline. However it was a drawing by a commoner.

I believe the book in which I learned this was Women Warriors or Warrior Women sorry I can't remember the author. Also explains the whole Amazon confusion pretty well.

,

The picture is indeed suposed to be Jeanne d'Arc, although it is not a contemporary painting ( afaik there is not a single contemporary painting which still exists ) . The important part is the armour which, although quite detailed, doesn't show any "boob armour". The idea of such "feminised" armour appears to be a rather modern one and nothing that would make any kind of sense to a late medieval/ early modern age person.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
If you increase the plate size from the upper torso up to the neck region, you can solve the problems mentioned, all at the same time still keeping the chest :'D

This one I like. It's pretty much the same approach I've used for things like my UAMC fanart: a flat plate over the breasts, but with the underside shaped to fit the body without giving her armoured cleavage.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not to mention that having armour that deflects melee wepons towards your neck is a fast and sure way to become a martyr. Maybe that's why they're using it in the first place?

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not to mention that having armour that deflects melee wepons towards your neck is a fast and sure way to become a martyr. Maybe that's why they're using it in the first place?

If you didnt notice, they usually have a neckguard thingy covering the necks.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

Since female warriors in armour were quite rare there aren't too many pictures about them.
The few i know about show them either in ringmail or rather "normal" ( that is, no boobarmour ) plate like this one

I hope that's not Joan of Arc. There is only one known image of her from her life time and she wasn't depicted in armour.

She was carrying a banner, had long hair and massive bustline. However it was a drawing by a commoner.

I believe the book in which I learned this was Women Warriors or Warrior Women sorry I can't remember the author. Also explains the whole Amazon confusion pretty well.

,

The picture is indeed suposed to be Jeanne d'Arc, although it is not a contemporary painting ( afaik there is not a single contemporary painting which still exists ) . The important part is the armour which, although quite detailed, doesn't show any "boob armour". The idea of such "feminised" armour appears to be a rather modern one and nothing that would make any kind of sense to a late medieval/ early modern age person.

Yeah, not buying it. That was drawn in the middle ages, where

1: People still didn't know how to draw.
and
2: Women were had a separate social status, so if a woman did something "manly" (like, idk, being a soldier) they'd probably be drawn without any womanly features.

Show me Joan of Arc's actual breastplate, then we'd have a solid piece of evidence.

 variable wrote:

Kaldor:

This is ironic, since the SoB range is one of those examples of female figures that don't go for pole dance chic.

You're saying that seriously, without a trace of irony yourself?

 KingDeath wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

Since female warriors in armour were quite rare there aren't too many pictures about them.
The few i know about show them either in ringmail or rather "normal" ( that is, no boobarmour ) plate like this one

I hope that's not Joan of Arc. There is only one known image of her from her life time and she wasn't depicted in armour.

She was carrying a banner, had long hair and massive bustline. However it was a drawing by a commoner.

I believe the book in which I learned this was Women Warriors or Warrior Women sorry I can't remember the author. Also explains the whole Amazon confusion pretty well.

,

The picture is indeed suposed to be Jeanne d'Arc, although it is not a contemporary painting ( afaik there is not a single contemporary painting which still exists ) . The important part is the armour which, although quite detailed, doesn't show any "boob armour". The idea of such "feminised" armour appears to be a rather modern one and nothing that would make any kind of sense to a late medieval/ early modern age person.

Yeah, not buying it. That was drawn in the middle ages, where

1: People still didn't know how to draw.
and
2: Women were had a separate social status, so if a woman did something "manly" (like, idk, being a soldier) they'd probably be drawn without any womanly features.

Show me Joan of Arc's actual breastplate, then we'd have a solid piece of evidence.

1. The picture is actualy fairly detailed and yet fails to show any boobarmour.

2. Pure speculation. In fact the long hair and the rather wide hips are womanly features.

Instead of showing you a piece of plate which either no longer exists or never existed at all how about you
show me a medieval piece of armour that features something impractical and useless as boobplates?

So once again. My argument is that boob armour was, at least according to my knowledge, not a feature of medieval armour.
Both the avaiable suits of plate and avaiable medieval art show nothing that could lead us to believe that boob armour has ever been used.

 Lynata wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Not to mention that having armour that deflects melee wepons towards your neck is a fast and sure way to become a martyr.

Good thing the armour actually has a neckguard, then.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Regardless, the entire point of medieval armour was to deflect enemy blows, not to absorb the energy. Deflecting the blow back into another piece of armour and having it absorb the hit would be inferior to just deflecting it off to somewhere else and having the enemy stagger from the miss. Even if the neck's safe it'd also deflect blows and stabs into the torso, resulting in a cloven (or pierced) cleavage, which is not very conductive to human life.

I'm sure those act like pretty effective bullet traps, sucking fire into the face of the marine or helping his arm get blown off when he starts taking hits from the front sector.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Just curious if any of you have ever seen a real piece of armour designed for a female fighter? Because they look just like what the current Sisters' models are wearing.

That's a rather funny statement, considering there are almost no existing examples of armor made specifically for females. So what you consider to be "real" is somewhat dubious. Pardon me if I throw the BS flag on this one.

Honestly, there'd be no need for external definition of breasts. One, because they are typically not that big, and two, because they are moldable (sports bras and other compression style garments will do the trick). For a suit like power armor, they'd just have a slight accommodation for the female form inside the armor but no significant change in the shape. In fact, if anything, the bullet trap created by armored boobs makes the design of the Sister's armor ineffective. They look the way they do because that's how sci fi and fantasy armor is expected to look, and to give the Sisters a distinctly female look. I mean, the models as they are have less armor than most Imperial Guard characters wearing carapace, lol. Some kind of magical ceramite body suits with corsets, lol. As far as the sisters who actually are well endowed to the point of interfering with the wear of issued armor, I imagine that surgical reduction would occur. After all, they've sworn themselves to the service of the Emprah, so sex appeal is irrelevant. However, sex appeal is relevant to the sales of overtly sexualized armored nun-dominatrix figures.

Considering the chest plate is hardly even visible on most of the models, I doubt changing it would hurt sales. I mean, Sisters don't sell very well as it is. An entirely new look might be in order if Games Workshop ever decides to re-introduce the line.

Considering the chest plate is hardly even visible on most of the models, I doubt changing it would hurt sales. I mean, Sisters don't sell very well as it is. An entirely new look might be in order if Games Workshop ever decides to re-introduce the line.

 variable wrote:

Considering the chest plate is hardly even visible on most of the models, I doubt changing it would hurt sales. I mean, Sisters don't sell very well as it is. An entirely new look might be in order if Games Workshop ever decides to re-introduce the line.

Excellent point! I have a squad of sisters I just traded for, but I ultimately decided that having the women in my life take me remotely seriously was more important than playing the one female army in the 40k universe. It would be nice if I could take the sisters a little more seriously--I mean the wife rolls her eyes at my Guard and thinks the orks are funny, but she just laughed out loud when I showed her the WD codex for the sisters.

 Kaldor wrote:

 variable wrote:

Kaldor:

This is ironic, since the SoB range is one of those examples of female figures that don't go for pole dance chic.

You're saying that seriously, without a trace of irony yourself?

Firstly, the Repentia don't look like no pole dancers I've ever seen.

Secondly, while scantily clad they still stay strictly away from overt sexualisation. They aren't posed suggestively, their 'naughty bits' aren't over emphasised, and the main emphasis of the model is the weapon.

And thirdly, IF we were to accept the Repentia as an example of 'pole dancer chic' (which I don't) it's still only one unit out of the entire range!

 LunaHound wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 variable wrote:

Kaldor:

This is ironic, since the SoB range is one of those examples of female figures that don't go for pole dance chic.

You're saying that seriously, without a trace of irony yourself?

Firstly, the Repentia don't look like no pole dancers I've ever seen.

Secondly, while scantily clad they still stay strictly away from overt sexualisation. They aren't posed suggestively, their 'naughty bits' aren't over emphasised, and the main emphasis of the model is the weapon.

And thirdly, IF we were to accept the Repentia as an example of 'pole dancer chic' (which I don't) it's still only one unit out of the entire range!

Really? Reallly????????? wow I don't even .

1) Their breast are larger than power armor sisters by like 3 cup size.

2) Not over emphasized? MISTER their left nipple are cover by tiny piece of leather that might not even cover their areola if GW ever painted them .

3) They don't look any pole dancers you've seen? Let me guess because they wear weird looking things thus it doesnt count to you right?
You never take into account the "relation" through them wearing almost nothing but BDSM attire? So would you finally agree that they look like bondage gear than?

4) "The main emphasis of model is the weapon." Have you ever heard of something so common in fantasy and sci fi and video games? Y'know the innuendo of large swords and half naked girls?
You reaaaaally cannot see the connection? This whole model reeks of sexualization.

Holy *bleep successful troll is successful troll, my mind is utterly blown from reading that. If you are like young like age 11 or something, then I should apologize to you and forget everything you said,
but if you are over 18, then nope.

Yeaah, as supportive I am of the breast plate on the powered armor figs, I'm going to admit that GW kinda dropped the ball with the Repentia model.
With the wyches it makes sense that they are wearing practically nothing, since it works with the whole "seductive-yet-deadly-gladiator" theme.
But Repentia? Doesn't work there. They have nothing in the background to support their attire.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yeaah, as supportive I am of the breast plate on the powered armor figs, I'm going to admit that GW kinda dropped the ball with the Repentia model.
With the wyches it makes sense that they are wearing practically nothing, since it works with the whole "seductive-yet-deadly-gladiator" theme.
But Repentia? Doesn't work there. They have nothing in the background to support their attire.

You mean aside from the fact they desire to go into battle for their own death, thus wearing absolutely nothing that could defend them except their faith in entering martyrdom?

Seriously, compare them and Arco Flagellants.



Are these causing an uproar over their models too?

Well, I guess thematically you could say that the Repentia wear almost nothing as a testament to their faith, that they are willing to expose themselves to the most horrendous of wounds in the name of the emperor.
Nakedness after all symbolizes weakness or vulnerability, so it kinda makes sense from that standpoint.
Of course, not many people would interpret that as such.

The Repential have very emphasized sexual attributes. I don't personally have any problem with them (from a morality standpoint. I do think they are awful models and an awful concept, lol), but they're clearly designed with sexualization in mind. Otherwise they could be wearing some kind of gender neutralizing tabards or robes instead of an S&M starter kit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Well, I guess thematically you could say that the Repentia wear almost nothing as a testament to their faith, that they are willing to expose themselves to the most horrendous of wounds in the name of the emperor.
Nakedness after all symbolizes weakness or vulnerability, so it kinda makes sense from that standpoint.
Of course, not many people would interpret that as such.

You mean aside from the fact that they practice self flagellation, thus showing their constant wounds and bleeding for the emperor in their fluff, as well as the fact that's literally how it was described in their fluff, they would go through constant pain and trials to the point that they were willing to fearlessly die before their sisters, the loss of their power armor showing they are truly bare before the Emperor's enemies, and that they, or the enemy will die in combat that day.

Well, yeah, that too. As I said though, not many will recognize that.

Reply by: SoloFalcon1138 - click to view full reply 

30265

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/19 20:42:20

Post by: SoloFalcon1138

I wonder if the OP is a master of the hover hand?

The Sisters are fine, and they're not changing any time soon. Why complain about something that is not only not under your control, but is not going away?

Reply by: Thatguyoverthere - click to view full reply 

26273

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/19 20:51:47

Post by: Thatguyoverthere

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not to mention that having armour that deflects melee wepons towards your neck is a fast and sure way to become a martyr. Maybe that's why they're using it in the first place?

It's the same reason that helmets are so rarely used in 40k. If you're shot/stabbed in the leg you're only crippled for the emperor. If you're shot/stabbed in the head, Instant Martyrdom!

Reply by: DxM Scotty MxD - click to view full reply 

54470

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/19 21:30:48

Post by: DxM Scotty MxD

 Banzaimash wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:
I'm sure some of you have seen this fanart already but it got me thinking. If SoB were redesigned into a more modest armor, would they lose popularity? I'm not saying SoB players are a bunch of "chainmail bikini" lovers but I am curious to know what dakka thinks

This armour looks pretty cool, much more streamlined and simple than the current design.

Upper chest torso minus the helmet looks like it is directly copied from Fallout T45-D PA.

On another note screw the sisters I'd wear that.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/19 21:38:27

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 DxM Scotty MxD wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:
I'm sure some of you have seen this fanart already but it got me thinking. If SoB were redesigned into a more modest armor, would they lose popularity? I'm not saying SoB players are a bunch of "chainmail bikini" lovers but I am curious to know what dakka thinks

This armour looks pretty cool, much more streamlined and simple than the current design.

Upper chest torso minus the helmet looks like it is directly copied from Fallout T45-D PA.

On another note screw the sisters I'd wear that.

I thought it looked familiar! I guess that's why I didn't like it; it looks too much like any other generic powered armor.

Reply by: Vaktathi - click to view full reply 

6772

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/19 22:52:19

Post by: Vaktathi

To be honest, from any realistic perspective, a fully armored woman wouldn't look all that different from a man from the belly up, you'd really only ever notice it in the hips, maybe shoulder width.

That said, there are still ways to make an armored woman look...feminine. Like so


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110917073642/warhammer40k/images/thumb/a/ab/Mira1.png/270px-Mira1.png

or this

http://origin.arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.media/sc4_pub_ss_hilde_001_psd_jpgcopy.jpg

It looks like OP's is going more towards the second on here, which I'd be fine with. You don't need each breast individually shaped and armored to make it not look like a dude.

Reply by: IcedAnimals - click to view full reply 

39912

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/19 23:11:46

Post by: IcedAnimals

It is simple really, all I have to do is ask you... " would you or anyone feel appropriate if you let your 8 year old daughter dress like that? "

Would I feel it appropriate for my 8 year old daughter to shave her head bald, dress in rags like a homeless person, cut out her tongue and replace it with scripture and have piercings the size of my fist in her spine and ribs? of course not. But I fail to see how that makes repentia "sexy".

Would I want my 8 year old daughter to dress up as a sister of battle? hell yeah, I am going to start working on the halloween costume as soon as im able! She will be adorable. Don't worry ill make sure her bite size bolter shoots nerf darts so she doesn't hurt your own kids.

Reply by: variable - click to view full reply 

59789

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/19 23:59:21

Post by: variable

Well you could run an all female DE army,

I did think of trying that. My goal was to have an integrated army, and by integrated I mean more than having a Smurfette in every other squad. DE is really the only army that accomplishes this, but when I found the Abbithan Banshee guard upgrades I decided to go the customization route instead and build a guard outfit.

Reply by: Kaldor - click to view full reply 

46926

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 00:04:50

Post by: Kaldor

 LunaHound wrote:
Really? Reallly????????? wow I don't even .

1) Their breast are larger than power armor sisters by like 3 cup size.

2) Not over emphasized? MISTER their left nipple are cover by tiny piece of leather that might not even cover their areola if GW ever painted them .

3) They don't look any pole dancers you've seen? Let me guess because they wear weird looking things thus it doesnt count to you right?
You never take into account the "relation" through them wearing almost nothing but BDSM attire? So would you finally agree that they look like bondage gear than?

4) "The main emphasis of model is the weapon." Have you ever heard of something so common in fantasy and sci fi and video games? Y'know the innuendo of large swords and half naked girls?
You reaaaaally cannot see the connection? This whole model reeks of sexualization.

Maybe you haven't had much to do with sex yet. You're a wargamer, so I wouldn't be surprised

I've never been to a club that featured bald, masked women with open wounds on the stage. And no, the sexual parts of the model are not overly emphasised. I'm not sure how you can't realise that, as it's blatantly obvious. They aren't suggestively posed, and their naughty bits are not heavily emphasised. Yes, they HAVE naughty bits, but the models aren't on their knees, in high heels, or in any other way posed to present themselves as objects of desire.

And even if they WERE deliberately sexualised, they're still only a single unit in the entire model range.

Reply by: Madcat87 - click to view full reply 

61374

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 00:05:46

Post by: Madcat87

IcedAnimals wrote:Would I want my 8 year old daughter to dress up as a sister of battle? hell yeah, I am going to start working on the halloween costume as soon as im able! She will be adorable. Don't worry ill make sure her bite size bolter shoots nerf darts so she doesn't hurt your own kids.

Well crap... Now I want to have a kid just to do this.

Reply by: Ifepy - click to view full reply 

62518

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 00:15:00

Post by: Ifepy

Wtf is wrong with boobs? I like boob plates cuz I like boobs. Lol go to thread complaining about the topless commissar and since when are SoB popular?

Reply by: djones520 - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 00:21:15

Post by: djones520

I didn't see anyone mention it, but the US Army is currently designing body army that is a bit more curvacious then the standard body armor that we've been using.

"Now, the Army is testing eight additional sizes made specifically for women, with, among other changes, more-narrow shoulders and “bra-shaped darting” in the chest."

Reply by: AegisGrimm - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 00:28:25

Post by: AegisGrimm

I know I'm late to the party, but while the SoB fan art is awesome, it looks too much like a slender man.

Boob armor on a 28mm female model that it totally armored is required. Especially with figures that are standing on bases the size of a quarter features have to be exaggerated to be noticed from several feet away on the tabletop. Boobs on females, muscles on men- bog standard.

While the pointed and edged boobs on the current SOB are kinda dumb in my opinion, they are necessary to exist, and the design fits the "Gothic" aesthetic as well. Though they would be better served if GW went to Werner Klocke for what womens' armor should look like to have the breasts molded in and still be tasteful and awesome:

Reply by: rednecroncryptek - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 01:06:28

Post by: rednecroncryptek

GW needs to somehow define them as women, but maybe change how they represented the boobs, as I find it a little weird, but, I guess, how would you represent the SoB, going back to the OP.

Reply by: LunaHound - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 01:22:59

Post by: LunaHound

 Kaldor wrote:
Maybe you haven't had much to do with sex yet. You're a wargamer, so I wouldn't be surprised

Personal attack, atleast you are blunt about it.

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 02:15:30

Post by: Psienesis

 Crimson wrote:
Well, yeah the Repentia are horrible (and I'm not only meaning the sculpts, which are indeed bad.) I'm totally cool with Sisters having fetish armour, but having practically nude Sisters is just silly and totally misses the point.

There was a really cool Repentia in John Blanche's Inquisitor Scetchbook wearing a partial SoB armour. I wish Repentia had looked like that.

Misses the point of a Repentia. They go into battle wearing nothing in any way protective, because they seek to absolve their sins through their death in battle against the foes of the Emperor (which is anything).

Reply by: AegisGrimm - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 02:56:42

Post by: AegisGrimm

Yeah, but they don't have to look like Battlewhores(TM).

Robes are the same as nothing on the battlefields of 40K. Or maybe if it's required to keep the same aesthetic, a long belted tabard that covers the front and back but not the arms and showing bare skin down the sides.

Reply by: ZebioLizard2 - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 03:18:06

Post by: ZebioLizard2

Robes are the same as nothing on the battlefields of 40K. Or maybe if it's required to keep the same aesthetic, a long belted tabard that covers the front and back but not the arms and showing bare skin down the sides.

Which misses the point entirely of a potential martyr who often practices Self-Flagellation and prefers to show off the scars of her deliverance unto the emperor before herself, her sisters, and her enemies.





Compare and contrast. To be honest I really don't see how they are battlewhores myself. They are dressed down in order to die with marks torn open upon their flesh, how the hell does that make it sexy? Showing skin Is that all it takes to be a whore?

Edit: Actually they kinda look like some of the old necromunda outfits, hm.

Reply by: AegisGrimm - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 03:56:51

Post by: AegisGrimm

Compare and contrast. To be honest I really don't see how they are battlewhores myself. They are dressed down in order to die with marks torn open upon their flesh, how the hell does that make it sexy? Showing skin Is that all it takes to be a whore?

To tell the truth I personally just thought the name was witty. Though if they are so pious and willing to die to be redeemed and sit by the Emperor, why do they need a Dominatrix behind them whipping them forward?

If anything, I just think they should be a unit geared more towards an army led by a crazy mono-dominant Inquisitor alongside Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines, while pure-SOB get something cool, melee-based, and in power armor to reflect female warrior monks.

For a good while there, the SOB was an army of females that kept clear of the "make the chicks show lots of skin" angle.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 03:58:25

Post by: Lynata

variable wrote:Those breasts are at least DDD. If you blew a SoB fig up to 12" tall those girls would make Barbie blush.

If you blew up a SoB fig up to 12" tall, a lot of other things would have to be changed as well. And this goes for any mini in the 40k line. -> "Hero Scale"

Though I will say that the armour is probably mass produced in a way that it can be worn by anyone, so certain parts like the chestplate might be bigger than necessary. So much for a potential in-universe explanation, anyways.

variable wrote:Remember how many times Starbuck had to brush the hair out of her eyes? She had half the hair you need for a bob.

I think the fact that much of that hair was in the front section of the head might've had something to do with that. Sisters don't even have hair that is long enough to possibly cover their eyes there. That's why I think their haircut is quite perfect. It's somewhat utilitarian and doesn't pose much of a hindrance in battle, yet at the same time it is still long enough to look "fancy". Good choice, imo. It's pretty much the 40k equivalent to a ponytail, just more gothic.

variable wrote:To most people Men being more masculine means they are tough, resilient where Women being femenine means they are more attractive to men, or more nurturing and soft.

Undoubtedly, yet do you not think that - even though I think attraction to male players was obviously the most prominent real world reason for their design - this actually fits nicely with this army's background ... in that the Sisters aim to attack and dismantle this stereotype that wants to tell them they'd have to stop looking like women to be regarded as competent? That only men and men-lookalikes are considered "worthy"? I do not deem it impossible that the ancient Temple on San Leor designed its members' uniforms with that thought in mind.

variable wrote:The second part I definitely don't buy. There's nothing sexualized about SM figures At All. Catachan Jungle Fighters, sure, if that's what you're into, but not really. Women sexualize men in very different ways then (straight) men sexualize women. It's not even remotely reasonable to suggest that the emphasis of masculine traits (again, traits useful for fighting and doing hard work) and the emphasis on "femenine" traits (that in this case are coincidentally what men tend to call sexy and attractive) are equivalent.

You don't understand. I am not suggesting that Space Marines were designed with an emphasis on the manly bits because it would attract women, but because men - their supposed players - believe this. It's part of an overall package: the ripped, brawny superhero who gets all the girls. Case in point: Conan. Such design choices are quite deliberate, and though they are ultimately tailored to appeal to a male audience this is a form of sexualisation as well. Just one the customer is intended to identify with rather than feeling attracted.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Regardless, the entire point of medieval armour was to deflect enemy blows, not to absorb the energy.

Where did you read that? The preferred weapon against platemail armour was a maul. People didn't stab at knights, they slashed and hoped that the kinetic energy transferred upon impact would bend the armour that badly that the person beneath it would get hurt.

AlexHolker wrote:The same goes for the Mistress, by changing the reason she is in the squad. Pointless sensation is Slaanesh's domain, not the Emperor's, so having her flog the Repentia with her whips is just poorly conceived.

You need to read up on SoB fluff.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but why wear practically nothing? Why not wear just a body suit?

Because that would defeat the point of them being Repentia in the first place.
They were put into that role specifically so they may experience extreme humiliation and chastisement on their road to redemption. They are supposed to suffer as much as possible, for only in suffering may they find the Emperor's mercy.

Apart from the obvious fact that their mistresses' neuro-whips would rather quickly remove remaining clothing, penitence with the naked body has been part of the Sororitas background even before those models were released. And just like with many other things in 40k, all of this has a real world connection - in this case obviously being a half-naked Jesus (who as we know shares a lot of traits with the Emperor in the Imperial religion: "He died for your sins!!" being whipped through the streets on his way to crucifixion, an act "replayed" by many Christian flagellants to this very day.

If you really think that this is "indecorous", be fortunate the Repentia minis wear as much as they do, for the official artwork has some of them actually go into battle with barenaked breasts, prayer-scrolls pinned to their friggin bodies with long scary needles, some Repentias even chained to others. The Ecclesiarchy and its most fervent worshippers quite simply are this crazy. Why is that a problem? If you want a "clean" Imperium without silly stuff, you may want to check out the Horus Heresy, because in the 41st millennium, this is part of the program.

Reply by: AegisGrimm - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 04:05:00

Post by: AegisGrimm

 Lynata wrote:

variable wrote:Those breasts are at least DDD. If you blew a SoB fig up to 12" tall those girls would make Barbie blush.

If you blew up a SoB fig up to 12" tall, a lot of other things would have to be changed as well. And this goes for any mini in the 40k line. -> "Hero Scale"

Though I will say that the armour is probably mass produced in a way that it can be worn by anyone, so certain parts like the chestplate might be bigger than necessary. So much for a potential in-universe explanation, anyways.

There's also that part that small breasts are hard to see on 1-inch tall women. I echo the heroic scale point. 40K rifle barrels don't have to be a scale inch wide, either, or be lead by models with fists that would be the size of their head, if their heads weren't also so big.

Warhammer fantasy skeletons could never fit inside Warhammer fantasy humans, either.

Reply by: Hollowman - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 05:26:53

Post by: Hollowman

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Though if they are so pious and willing to die to be redeemed and sit by the Emperor, why do they need a Dominatrix behind them whipping them forward?
.

She's not whipping them forward, she is purifying them through pain - that is why they are proud of their scars. Pain is not motivation, pain is penance.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 05:34:16

Post by: Manchu

Let's keep the tone courteous as per the rules. Personal jibes are not allowed on this forum. Thanks!

Reply by: variable - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 05:56:42

Post by: variable

If you blew up a SoB fig up to 12" tall, a lot of other things would have to be changed as well. And this goes for any mini in the 40k line. -> "Hero Scale"

Naturally, but I everything blown up for HS is a choice. Breasts half the size we are talking about would be plenty visible. Boys like big boobs, we find them sexy, blowing them up caters to ONE possible impulse, therefore the boobs were made that big, that distinct, and the designers made damn sure the bolter didn't cover them up to show off how dang sexy they are. QED :p

Though I will say that the armour is probably mass produced in a way that it can be worn by anyone, so certain parts like the chestplate might be bigger than necessary.

It doesn't work that way in the real world, so if we are going to use real world ides like mass production I think the idea of OSFA completely falls apart when we are taling about form fitting armour. But this point has been covered by people who know a lot more about armour than I. I will say, the one time I had to get fitted for armour (many years in the SCA) its fit being right was of paramount importance to the armorer.

the Sisters aim to attack and dismantle this stereotype that wants to tell them they'd have to stop looking like women to be regarded as competent? That only men and men-lookalikes are considered "worthy"? I do not deem it impossible that the ancient Temple on San Leor designed its members' uniforms with that thought in mind.

Real men IRL came up with this fluff. I'm casting a particular aspersion on the motivation for the design of the SoB, which was to push the spank factor up as high as they could before they crossed into Robert Howard/Frank Frazetta territory using Nun/Dominatrix fetish.

You don't understand. I am not suggesting that Space Marines were designed with an emphasis on the manly bits because it would attract women, but because ...they are ultimately tailored to appeal to a male audience this is a form of sexualisation as well.

Fair enough, then no, there is nothing wrong with this because it's not exploitative of men to do so. It gratifies men to be objectified thusly both for the observer and the observed. Objectifying women to appeal to men after the fashion of the SoB is inherently demeaning to men and women because it exploits aspects of women for the sexual gratification of men. It Reduces women from their whole being to a set of attributes that have nothing to do with war and everything to do with Ensign Woody and his little troop of seamen.

Reply by: KalashnikovMarine - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 06:35:14

Post by: KalashnikovMarine

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
I pretty much have agreed with everything Kaldor has said in the thread so don't need to go over it again.

Hell, I have a whole thread of Fantasy/Sci-fi related ladies in DCM, Sisters are really low end scale when it comes to sexualised females in the hobby arena we find ourselves in. Some folks might need to chillax. with a T-Rex drinking a banana smoothie.

This! and what Hollowman said. Honestly the other SoB players have been making my arguments for me.

Kinda a buzz kill really. I was all jazzed up then everyone beat me to it.

I'd be a Sisters player no matter what their chest plate looked like so there you go.

Reply by: We - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 06:48:39

Post by: We

I don't have a well thought out statement (maybe because I am now thinking of boobs) but I have a few bullet points:

If they don't have boob plates how would you tell they are an all female army?

My point is in our culture boobs are associated with femininity.

It just doesn't make sense to me to have an all female army in power armor that looks exactly like an all male army in power armor. You might as well make a SM army and say they are all female.

In 28mm you need to exaggerate thing in order to notice it on the table otherwise it will look boring.

Reply by: Kaldor - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 07:04:44

Post by: Kaldor

 variable wrote:
the motivation for the design of the SoB... was to push the spank factor up as high as they could

What on earth would make you think that? Are they all bending over showing off shapely bottoms? Are they leaning over with giant, heaving, barely constrained bosoms? Are they posed seductively, or suggestively? Are they naked or near naked?

There is quite literally nothing about the SoB range that objectifies women, or sexualises the models. Nothing.

Reply by: KalashnikovMarine - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 07:13:43

Post by: KalashnikovMarine

 Kaldor wrote:

 variable wrote:
the motivation for the design of the SoB... was to push the spank factor up as high as they could

What on earth would make you think that? Are they all bending over showing off shapely bottoms? Are they leaning over with giant, heaving, barely constrained bosoms? Are they posed seductively, or suggestively? Are they naked or near naked?

There is quite literally nothing about the SoB range that objectifies women, or sexualises the models. Nothing.

Repentia excused of course. Where the hell are people seeing all these hyper-sexualized SoBs? I don't have a massive Sister's army but I have a decent force and not a single one of them is pole dancing or some thing. They're all pretty serious about killing some heretics, mutants, psychers, or xenos. Cept Sister Bethany but she's never been right in the head since that Chaos Terminator pushed her and said he wouldn't fight a girl and she proceeded to beat him to death with his own leg...

Reply by: Formosa - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 07:30:18

Post by: Formosa

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 variable wrote:
the motivation for the design of the SoB... was to push the spank factor up as high as they could

What on earth would make you think that? Are they all bending over showing off shapely bottoms? Are they leaning over with giant, heaving, barely constrained bosoms? Are they posed seductively, or suggestively? Are they naked or near naked?

There is quite literally nothing about the SoB range that objectifies women, or sexualises the models. Nothing.

Repentia excused of course. Where the hell are people seeing all these hyper-sexualized SoBs? I don't have a massive Sister's army but I have a decent force and not a single one of them is pole dancing or some thing. They're all pretty serious about killing some heretics, mutants, psychers, or xenos. Cept Sister Bethany but she's never been right in the head since that Chaos Terminator pushed her and said he wouldn't fight a girl and she proceeded to beat him to death with his own leg...

The only one i can think of is saint Celestine, and thats more angelic than sexual... hmm also not sure what people are thinking of.

Reply by: KalashnikovMarine - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 07:33:16

Post by: KalashnikovMarine

Celestine's completely covered, more covered then a lot of depictions of angels or goddesses and the like ye olde religious artwork. She's probably more clearly female then even other battle sisters but I still wouldn't call her sexualized.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 08:33:53

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 Lynata wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Regardless, the entire point of medieval armour was to deflect enemy blows, not to absorb the energy.

Where did you read that? The preferred weapon against platemail armour was a maul. People didn't stab at knights, they slashed and hoped that the kinetic energy transferred upon impact would bend the armour that badly that the person beneath it would get hurt.

You do realize that you're agreeing with me? Mauls were indeed used, because they're a superior weapon to a sword if you're aiming to inflict blunt-force trauma, the very kind of thing armour wasn't designed to protect from. Swords and axes would mostly inflict glancing blows, whereas a maul would cave in the skull/torso of the guy you smashed.

The stabbing example was only there because having two curved surfaces deflecting blows to the general area of the heart would mean that someone could stab and have the blade deflected into the armour, forcing the armour to take the brunt of the force, instead of simply deflecting it off to the side (as you pointed out medieval armour would indeed do).

Reply by: Apple fox - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 08:55:14

Post by: Apple fox

We wrote:
I don't have a well thought out statement (maybe because I am now thinking of boobs) but I have a few bullet points:

If they don't have boob plates how would you tell they are an all female army?

My point is in our culture boobs are associated with femininity.

It just doesn't make sense to me to have an all female army in power armor that looks exactly like an all male army in power armor. You might as well make a SM army and say they are all female.

In 28mm you need to exaggerate thing in order to notice it on the table otherwise it will look boring.

I actuly think this is a bit dishonest ( or honest ) but realy, the models look far difernt from space marines that if just changing the chest a little it would still look unique to the theme.
I actuly don't mind the sisters armor, but I do find it silly also and well maybe just making the chest part smaller would make me just happy

Reply by: Kroothawk - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 09:05:19

Post by: Kroothawk

Must be something right about Sororitas, when they are among the three most popular army among female gamers.

Reply by: Crimson - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 09:08:56

Post by: Crimson

 variable wrote:


Real men IRL came up with this fluff. I'm casting a particular aspersion on the motivation for the design of the SoB, which was to push the spank factor up as high as they could before they crossed into Robert Howard/Frank Frazetta territory using Nun/Dominatrix fetish.

You say this like it was a bad thing...

Reply by: Apple fox - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 09:11:29

Post by: Apple fox

 Kroothawk wrote:
Must be something right about Sororitas, when they are among the three most popular army among female gamers.

Or that 40k sorta staving for females in army's and if we want one with lots there isn't realy much choice at this time, at least not easy to do.

:p just had to say it, but where do I find this info. I would be curious to read it :0

Reply by: Zweischneid - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 09:12:23

Post by: Zweischneid

 Kroothawk wrote:
Must be something right about Sororitas, when they are among the three most popular army among female gamers.

Just like GW's secrecy marketing must be doing it right if GW is a profitable company.

Guess it would now be the time to mirror some of your arguments from the GW financial discussion that go in the vein of "just because they succeed, doesn't mean they couldn't have done better with a better approach":

Reply by: Crimson - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 09:14:48

Post by: Crimson

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Repentia excused of course. Where the hell are people seeing all these hyper-sexualized SoBs? I don't have a massive Sister's army but I have a decent force and not a single one of them is pole dancing or some thing. They're all pretty serious about killing some heretics, mutants, psychers, or xenos. Cept Sister Bethany but she's never been right in the head since that Chaos Terminator pushed her and said he wouldn't fight a girl and she proceeded to beat him to death with his own leg...

They have pointy boob armour and corsets. The fetish influences are pretty obvious. They are clearly sexualised.

However, their poses are not sexualised, and this is a good thing, that would ruin them. They are posed in proper combat poses. They are these crazy fetish nuns that are bad ass killers. This makes them an awesomely crazy 40k thing.

Reply by: ZebioLizard2 - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 11:46:59

Post by: ZebioLizard2

They have pointy boob armour and corsets. The fetish influences are pretty obvious. They are clearly sexualised.

Pointy boob armor? Are you talking about this



Oh god no! Sexualization! I know it's stylized upon old greek armor, but when someone says that, it makes me think more of the Sanguinary Guard rather than SoB



These aren't pointed! Infact the few times you see "Pointed" it's usually because on the breasts they either have markings, the sigil of the the SoB, or skulls.



This one has the Fleur De Lis stylized alongside the breast.

Also Corsets are not Sexualized, there is some for sexual fetishism, but overall it was used in a manner for the body of both men and women, invented by a women in order to keep a proper figure at the time that they would find acceptable.

Reply by: Crimson - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 12:08:25

Post by: Crimson

It is absurd to claim that nuns that wear corsets as an armour are not sexualised. I do not think it is a bad thing, but denying it is silly.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 12:10:05

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Crimson wrote:
It is absurd to claim that nuns that wear corsets as an armour are not sexualised. I do not think it is a bad thing, but denying it is silly.

I don't know...I think the corsets fit with the gothic aesthetic, and were chosen more for that reason than for cheesecakery.

Reply by: ZebioLizard2 - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 12:19:47

Post by: ZebioLizard2

 Crimson wrote:
It is absurd to claim that nuns that wear corsets as an armour are not sexualised. I do not think it is a bad thing, but denying it is silly.

Considering that back in the renaissance wore standard attire at the time, under their habits nuns have worn corsets before, and with the gothic feel of warhammer.. It just makes more sense than thinking of them as sexualized to me.

Reply by: Kaldor - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 12:20:09

Post by: Kaldor

 Crimson wrote:
It is absurd to claim that nuns that wear corsets as an armour are not sexualised. I do not think it is a bad thing, but denying it is silly.

They're fully enclosing ceramite breastplates. Calling it a corset is about as valid as calling a Marine breastplate a corset, or calling the chest armour on a Cadian a bra.

It happens to have boobs, because that helps to emphasise that this tiny armoured figure is supposed to be female. The majority of figures are holding weapons over their chest.

They are in no way sexualised.

Reply by: SagesStone - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 12:35:11

Post by: SagesStone

Actually I think it was a dust cover over the armour, or at least mentioned something along those lines at some point.

The heels everyone seems to talk about come from one artwork by Blanche. Apparently they're just invisible on everyone else.



I guess marines are over sexualised now, to deny it is just to be silly. I mean look at them. It's just disgusting how blatant it is.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 12:38:22

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

You know, I'm probably the only person who actually liked the heels in that piece of art.
It provides a sort of B-movie, Judge Dredd vibe, you know?

Reply by: ZebioLizard2 - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 12:42:31

Post by: ZebioLizard2

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You know, I'm probably the only person who actually liked the heels in that piece of art.
It provides a sort of B-movie, Judge Dredd vibe, you know?

Alotta artwork in 2nd edition was pretty B-movieish to say the least though.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 13:51:55

Post by: Lynata

variable wrote:Breasts half the size we are talking about would be plenty visible.

We'll just have to disagree there. One poster already mentioned a father who was unable to discern that a SoB mini was male.
Sure, you could probably find out even at "half size" when you look reeeeeeal close, but that's not the point, is it? One of this army's unique features is that it is female, so the miniatures have to "scream" that as much as the Marine minis have to scream "I'm a maaaan!"

variable wrote:and the designers made damn sure the bolter didn't cover them up to show off how dang sexy they are.

Actually the bolters do, on quite a number of minis - that's why I had to browse a bit to actually find an image that shows that there is something between the breasts providing additional protection earlier.

variable wrote:It doesn't work that way in the real world, so if we are going to use real world ides like mass production I think the idea of OSFA completely falls apart when we are taling about form fitting armour.

Actually it does work like that in the real world, when you are looking at contemporary body armour for military and security forces. We aren't talking custom jobs here - I highly doubt that the Sororitas project their measures to Mars and Ophelia VII via astropathic communication for each and every novice who needs a new set of armour, and then wait 10 years until they get the delivery.
It doesn't have to be one size fits all, but with a series of interlocking plates of, say, three different sizes (S, M, L) they should be able to cover the entire range of their warriors.

variable wrote:Real men IRL came up with this fluff. I'm casting a particular aspersion on the motivation for the design of the SoB, which was to push the spank factor up as high as they could before they crossed into Robert Howard/Frank Frazetta territory using Nun/Dominatrix fetish.

Yet any RL motivations (and like I said, I actually agree with you on this suspicion) do not matter at all.
What matters is if the image they project lines up with their fluff, and in this case it does. The idea that the female form is equivalent to "weakness" and thus needs to be hidden behind gender-neutral armour is 20th century thinking, and whilst it undoubtedly is still propagated to this very day, this must not be the case in the 41st millennium.

I'm against sexualised armour in most settings, but not in those where its design and existence fits in with the rest of the background. This includes Wh40k as much as drow in D&D or the amazons in DSA as well as the night elves in Warcraft.

variable wrote:Fair enough, then no, there is nothing wrong with this because it's not exploitative of men to do so. It gratifies men to be objectified thusly both for the observer and the observed. Objectifying women to appeal to men after the fashion of the SoB is inherently demeaning to men and women because it exploits aspects of women for the sexual gratification of men. It Reduces women from their whole being to a set of attributes that have nothing to do with war and everything to do with Ensign Woody and his little troop of seamen.

Ah, but only because society still differs between man and woman for this very purpose. Why?
Here's a revolutionary thought: Objectification should be okay where it is employed equally. And in fact, I believe this is where society is slowly, very slowly moving towards.

Kaldor wrote:There is quite literally nothing about the SoB range that objectifies women, or sexualises the models. Nothing.

Hmm, I believe there is - but in a limited, "fitting" way. Similar to Space Marines or Catachans. Nothing that really stands out.

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Sororitas armour is now singled out as being sexualised after all those years it was hailed as "female armour done right" on the internets?

Formosa wrote:The only one i can think of is saint Celestine, and thats more angelic than sexual... hmm also not sure what people are thinking of.

Admittedly, there's a rather thin line between angelic and sexual when you think about it. I have to say it's strange that a lot of people in this thread instantly lean towards the more scandalous, though, completely disregarding the other?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:You do realize that you're agreeing with me? Mauls were indeed used, because they're a superior weapon to a sword if you're aiming to inflict blunt-force trauma, the very kind of thing armour wasn't designed to protect from. Swords and axes would mostly inflict glancing blows, whereas a maul would cave in the skull/torso of the guy you smashed.
The stabbing example was only there because having two curved surfaces deflecting blows to the general area of the heart would mean that someone could stab and have the blade deflected into the armour, forcing the armour to take the brunt of the force, instead of simply deflecting it off to the side (as you pointed out medieval armour would indeed do).

All I'm saying is "people don't stab at other people in armour", so this perceived weakness exists for attack moves that very likely wouldn't even be employed against the wearer. Aside from, as already pointed out, the area you think would "attract" stabbing attacks actually being reinforced.

n0t_u wrote:Actually I think it was a dust cover over the armour, or at least mentioned something along those lines at some point.

That's my thinking as well. There are both artworks as well as miniatures of Sisters without the "corset", where you can see that there's a section of interlocking plates beneath. The corset would merely prevent dust, sand, or fleshy bits from messing with it.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:You know, I'm probably the only person who actually liked the heels in that piece of art.
It provides a sort of B-movie, Judge Dredd vibe, you know?

I actually like most of Blanche's art, in spite of his obsession with high heels. I don't think they fit on Sororitas armour as they have to move in a more basic, military, utilitarian manner. But for assassins dancing a dance of death with power-knives in each hand? Sure, give them heels. In fact, have them be powered heels, with the assassin using them to stab people in the head!

That's the B-movie vibe I can get behind.

Crimson wrote:They have pointy boob armour and corsets. The fetish influences are pretty obvious. They are clearly sexualised.
However, their poses are not sexualised, and this is a good thing, that would ruin them. They are posed in proper combat poses. They are these crazy fetish nuns that are bad ass killers. This makes them an awesomely crazy 40k thing.

QFT

Also, lol @ Sanguinary Guard pics

Great catch.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 14:02:15

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Lynata wrote:


I actually like most of Blanche's art, in spite of his obsession with high heels. I don't think they fit on Sororitas armour as they have to move in a more basic, military, utilitarian manner. But for assassins dancing a dance of death with power-knives in each hand? Sure, give them heels. In fact, have them be powered heels, with the assassin using them to stab people in the head!

That's the B-movie vibe I can get behind.

Hah, that actually reminds me of a game I like, Bloodrayne, which also took inspiration from B-Movies and grindhouse.
...Great, now I want to make a DCA based off of Rayne.

Reply by: AegisGrimm - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 14:29:57

Post by: AegisGrimm

You know, I'm probably the only person who actually liked the heels in that piece of art.
It provides a sort of B-movie, Judge Dredd vibe, you know?

Well, I like it, too. It's not the best out there, but I'm a fan of the artwork of that time period of 40K, though some of it had the tendency to get really "messy" with way too much going on for the eye to focus on.

Reply by: variable - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 15:01:33

Post by: variable

Lynata:

Here's a revolutionary thought: Objectification should be okay where it is employed equally.

Not terribly revolutionary, it was called the Sexual Revolution and the theory goes a lot further back then that. The upshot was that a lot of guys got to party hardy and a lot of girls got called sluts and ostracized because the power dynamic is still ridiculously slanted towards men in our universe, just like in the 40k universe. Unless you equalize before you objectify your objectification is going to have different affects on different groups. Right now, in the real world calling a man a slut and saying "Nice Butt" to him is going to have Zero Negative Affect on him and is likely to build his ego as well as encourage his friends to think highly of him. Say the same thing to a girl and at best you have her friends up in your face for being such a dick and at worst you've stripped her dignity away and left her feeling like an object for you to perv on. This is just the real dichotomy that exists. It's not the way it ought to be, but operating from a place where objectifying women in our wargames is okay because we objectify the men is okay is a false dichotomy.

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Sororitas armour is now singled out as being sexualised after all those years it was hailed as "female armour done right" on the internets?

This argument has been going on since day one, it isn't just now. You may not have noticed, but the cover of the 2cnd ed codex (posted above) drew immediate criticism for the stripper pose on the cover with all the creepy old men leering in the background.

Honestly I think there's a lot that's right about the Sisters, I just don't think the designers at GW were able to keep the little tropes that keep women so marginalized in fantasy and gaming in general out of the line, though I would guess there were some very sincere efforts to do so. I think there's plenty of art and versions of the sisters where the Problem Areas are really marginalized in favor of the overall aesthetic of Nuns with Guns (Soulstorm comes to mind).

All I'm saying is "people don't stab at other people in armour",

No, but they shoot arrows, they throw spears, they point lances at your chest when you are charging them on horseback. There is, in fact an entire school of swordplay devoted to picking out the weaknesses in plate armor, but the Entire Reason for the crested design of a chestplate is to Defect Blows away from the body and the head. Yes, the Mace and the Flail were innovated during the late medieval period with barbs and flanges to overcome this problem in tandem with the evolution of plate armor, but you are confusing a response to the armor's attributes with some weird design feature.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
n0t_u

The heels everyone seems to talk about come from one artwork by Blanche.

Pop quiz: What was that One relatively unknown obscure piece of artwork from?

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 15:48:29

Post by: Lynata

variable wrote:I think there's plenty of art and versions of the sisters where the Problem Areas are really marginalized in favor of the overall aesthetic of Nuns with Guns (Soulstorm comes to mind).

If you think it's better in Soulstorm (tbh, I don't see the difference), isn't it likely that the miniatures just differ slightly due to scale, to make them instantly recognizable?

variable wrote:No, but they shoot arrows, they throw spears, they point lances at your chest when you are charging them on horseback.

Not in 40k they won't.
Or rather: Those armies that do probably don't field weapons that would do much harm to power armour. The others? Well ... chainswords and power swords are just "hacked" with. Tyranids probably stab, but I think that'd be lethal regardless where it hits you.

For medieval times you have a point, though I'd only really agree on the lances bit. For arrows and spears, I do think that too much force would be taken out of the initial contact to penetrate the armour on the second. It's not as if an arrow or a thrown spear would not lose any kinetic energy, after all.
But for the hypothetical situation, let's also keep in mind that we are talking about two half spheres here. The angle required for an incoming weapon to be "guided" perfectly between them is so extremely specific that it should not occur very often. More likely the incoming weapon would, yes, indeed be deflected towards the midst - but in such an altered angle that a second deflection (upwards or downwards and to the sides) would occur.

Now I'm rather interested in practical experiments, like in that documentary about longbows... I suppose nobody ever actually did this yet, though?

Also, I think against las weapons the "boob armour" might even offer better protection than a flat plate, simply because you'll have more diffusion in the beam. </nerdmode>

variable wrote:Pop quiz: What was that One relatively unknown obscure piece of artwork from?

That was indeed not a very fortunate choice.
It's rather misleading, too, if you look at all the other images within the book, as well as the actual minis.

Reply by: English Assassin - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 16:23:44

Post by: English Assassin

 Kaldor wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is absurd to claim that nuns that wear corsets as an armour are not sexualised. I do not think it is a bad thing, but denying it is silly.

They're fully enclosing ceramite breastplates. Calling it a corset is about as valid as calling a Marine breastplate a corset, or calling the chest armour on a Cadian a bra.

It happens to have boobs, because that helps to emphasise that this tiny armoured figure is supposed to be female. The majority of figures are holding weapons over their chest.

They are in no way sexualised.

In this context, given that we are discussing the aesthetics of distinctly corset-shaped body armour, calling it a corset is fairly forgiveable. As to whether the Sororitas are (overly? overtly? at all?) sexualised or not... I dunno. They're certainly less so than the token female participants in many other wargames.

 Lynata wrote:
We'll just have to disagree there. One poster already mentioned a father who was unable to discern that a SoB mini was male.
Sure, you could probably find out even at "half size" when you look reeeeeeal close, but that's not the point, is it? One of this army's unique features is that it is female, so the miniatures have to "scream" that as much as the Marine minis have to scream "I'm a maaaan!"

This is probably the real answer, though obviously Space Marines bellow their manliness; screaming would be girly.

Reply by: Inquisitor Ehrenstein - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 16:38:20

Post by: Inquisitor Ehrenstein

So you want them to be in very uncomfortable armor? Because that flat plate isn't going to work very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I like it more. Looks like an actual suit of armor. Besides, having a section for each breast just looks stupid. This kind of armor looks a lot better.

Except for the fact that they wouldn't fit into it...

It looks awesome. 40k v. real life. It's intended to look cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you complain, you should stop, because then these are probably the only boobs you'll ever see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting point. I was wondering if the Ordo Scharzenkommando should wear black uniforms or dirndls.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 16:48:58

Post by: Grey Templar

Nobody ever said the armor wouldn't be made to accomodate the breasts, it just wouldn't show it outwardly very much.


Having "cups" that protrude outwards is VERY bad. It creates a place where blows can land and transfer energy instead of sliding off(which is what armor is designed to do)

Instead, armor made for women will have an expanded chest area and nothing more. Proportionwise, it will still look feminine but it will still provide actual protection.


The current design is silly and oversexed(although not much compared to other sci-fi/fantesy)

Reply by: Veteran Sergeant - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 17:16:36

Post by: Veteran Sergeant

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nobody ever said the armor wouldn't be made to accomodate the breasts, it just wouldn't show it outwardly very much.


Having "cups" that protrude outwards is VERY bad. It creates a place where blows can land and transfer energy instead of sliding off(which is what armor is designed to do)

Instead, armor made for women will have an expanded chest area and nothing more. Proportionwise, it will still look feminine but it will still provide actual protection.


The current design is silly and oversexed(although not much compared to other sci-fi/fantesy)

Pretty much.

People are deluding themselves, or just plain fibbing if they are arguing that the over-large boobs aren't on the models simply because it makes them easily identified as female, and because, well, the fans of sci-fi are mostly male and mostly not getting laid on a regular basis by anything even remotely close to a SoB.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 17:25:34

Post by: Lynata

Grey Templar wrote:Having "cups" that protrude outwards is VERY bad. It creates a place where blows can land and transfer energy instead of sliding off(which is what armor is designed to do)

Having a "hollow" abdomen is VERY bad. It creates a place where a lucky hit can lay waste to the internals. -> Necron Lord
Not wearing a helmet in battle is VERY bad. It creates a place where a single shot can kill the unit. -> Every single Space Wolf Thunderwolf Rider
Not wearing body armour is VERY bad. It creates a place where any attack can transfer its entire energy to the target. -> Catachan Imperial Guard

Welcome to 40k.

And again, the blow would slide off anyways. The very fact that the "cup" is protruding outwards and not inwards means that it will deflect, not lead, whatever comes its way. You would have to hit a very narrow area for anything to "glide" directly in-between the breasts. I think people are exaggerating this risk a bit. Take a sheet of paper, draw two spheres and then add a couple lines where you think an incoming attack would come from and how it'd bounce. While doing so, keep the three-dimensional nature of the armour in mind and that deflection would occur horizontally as well as vertically.
The risk would be even smaller for projectile weapons, and against las weapons the cups would actually provide better protection than a flat surface. Whereas the vast majority of melee weapons in 40k is not used for stabbing but for slashing, and I believe chain- and powerswords will "bite" into armour regardless of how it is shaped?

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 17:31:11

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

Nevermind, herp derp

Reply by: Veteran Sergeant - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 17:43:54

Post by: Veteran Sergeant

I think your ballistics experience is a little lacking. Bullets very rarely deflect in hard angles like they do in the movies and comic books. Rounds typically deform as they hit, and will often follow walls and other surfaces. An incoming round striking the inward facing surfaces will deflect the round towards the center. At the center, in nearly all artwork, is a crease or other "joining point". That, by nature, will be the weakest point in a surface. If it strikes along the top or bottom, it is still going to deflect the majority of projectiles towards the body (top goes towards the head and neck, bottom goes towards the abdomen and pelvis). Only a small number of strikes to the outside surfaces are going to be deflected away from the body.

The bottom line is that any surface area wasted on the formation of recognizable ceramite boobs is going to be significantly less thick than a flat or even slightly rounded surface for the absorption of projectile or explosive based attacks. In fact, in the case of explosive munitions (like bolter shells that detonate but fail to penetrate), it's actually increasing the amount of blunt force trauma by increasing the amount of surface area available to receive blast pressure.

It's somewhat difficult to apply current science to las guns, since they have no real world equivalent.


Look, you were spot on talking about the other designs that don't make any sense. This is 40K. And it is designed and written by guys who don't know anything about actual weapons, or warfare, or heck, science in general. Best to leave it at that. Because there's no logical explanation to really anything about the Sisters. They're women, and thus inferior in most attributes necessary to real world soldiering at the start. Their armor is tissue paper thin compared to everyone else's and yet provides the same protection and benefits as the far bulkier iterations worn by males in the setting. They eschew most long ranged weaponry because they live in a universe where battles are inexplicably fought at absurdly close ranges.

The Sisters exist because they live in a universe where science and sense don't matter. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. And it's not really a bad thing, because there are plenty of other things that only exist in 40K because of the Rule of Cool. In fact, you might not find much that would exist if RoC wasn't in effect.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 17:46:33

Post by: Grey Templar

Well, Lasguns are an energy pulse so they won't care about any sort of sculpting. In that case its mearly the thickness of the material thats going to be important.

Reply by: Crimson - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 18:16:04

Post by: Crimson

 Kaldor wrote:


They're fully enclosing ceramite breastplates. Calling it a corset is about as valid as calling a Marine breastplate a corset, or calling the chest armour on a Cadian a bra.

They look like corsets. What their function in the fictional setting is doesn't matter. We are talking about the look of the models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote: You know, I'm probably the only person who actually liked the heels in that piece of art.
It provides a sort of B-movie, Judge Dredd vibe, you know?

No, I love the heels.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 18:34:32

Post by: Lynata

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Rounds typically deform as they hit, and will often follow walls and other surfaces.

Yes, but I do not think this applies if that "wall" is curved inwards. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned that you'd have to hit a very specific spot on that cup, otherwise the deflection will throw the projectile against the other cup - or some other point on the chestplate, if it doesn't throw it off entirely.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:In fact, in the case of explosive munitions (like bolter shells that detonate but fail to penetrate), it's actually increasing the amount of blunt force trauma by increasing the amount of surface area available to receive blast pressure.

Is it really more hurtful if the shell detonates on the outside rather than the inside of the body, though?
That said, it's probably a matter of interpretation again, all depending on what we take from the "mass-reactive detonator" (i.e. can it actually detonate when not penetrating).

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Because there's no logical explanation to really anything about the Sisters. They're women, and thus inferior in most attributes necessary to real world soldiering at the start. Their armor is tissue paper thin compared to everyone else's and yet provides the same protection and benefits as the far bulkier iterations worn by males in the setting.

Regardless of your own opinion regarding female soldiers in the military, and aside from the fact that you are glossing over the whole "averages" aspect (the Sisters, elite cadets from the Schola Progenium, are certainly not average women - unlike the masses of the Imperial Guard), any physical "inferiority" is sufficiently compensated by their Astartes-grade equipment. They prefer close-range firefights, and gender certainly does not hold much influence over a warrior's ability to aim and pull a trigger. Lastly, the simple fact that their armour is not stuffed with a gazillion gadgets - and thus quite logically less bulky - does not have to affect their armour protection at all. Ironically, the first case of "skin-tight power armour" in the setting was actually worn by a male Inquisitor, and that was even smaller than the comparatively bulky armour the Sororitas are sporting. Obiwan Sherlock Closseau certainly is a rather tongue-in-cheek example, yet he perfectly exemplifies what kind of equipment you can wield in this setting if you really want to go over the top.

Anyways, if we go by Codex fluff, power armour plates have a thickness of "up to 1 inch", which I think fits nicely to what the Sisters are sporting. If what you're looking at is bulkier, it's not bulkier because it should provide more protection, but because the man wearing it is a beast, or because there's a whole array of additional machinery hidden underneath. For Space Marines, both is the case, so their equipment looks accordingly.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:In fact, you might not find much that would exist if RoC wasn't in effect.

That is true.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, Lasguns are an energy pulse so they won't care about any sort of sculpting. In that case its mearly the thickness of the material thats going to be important.

A beam hitting a sloped surface (such as, say, a sphere or a cone) will produce less agitation on the impact surface, simply because its effect is spread over a wider area rather than if it would be focused on a flat spot. Or do I fail my physics here?

Crimson wrote:

Kaldor wrote:They're fully enclosing ceramite breastplates. Calling it a corset is about as valid as calling a Marine breastplate a corset, or calling the chest armour on a Cadian a bra.

They look like corsets. What their function in the fictional setting is doesn't matter. We are talking about the look of the models.

I think you were just talking past each other. Kaldor was referring to the actual chestplate, whereas the corset is just an additional piece of leather(?) covering the abdominal section (presumably for increased protection against dust, though given its studded nature it might also serve as a secondary layer of armour).

On the Canoness miniature, the "corset" is replaced by a richly ornamented full metal plackart.
( like this: http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/CollectionIQP/artifact.pl?anum=3127.9 )

Also, repost for relevance:

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 18:40:44

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
it's actually increasing the amount of blunt force trauma by increasing the amount of surface area available to receive blast pressure.

Wouldn't the power armor negate the damage though? I mean, this isn't plate armor, this is a sophisticated piece of hardware with dampeners and crap.
Well, I would imagine anyway. It would be pretty poor powered armor if the occupant can be hurt by anything less than a direct hit from a wrecking ball.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 18:42:20

Post by: Grey Templar

 Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Well, Lasguns are an energy pulse so they won't care about any sort of sculpting. In that case its mearly the thickness of the material thats going to be important.

A beam hitting a sloped surface (such as, say, a sphere or a cone) will produce less agitation on the impact surface, simply because its effect is spread over a wider area rather than if it would be focused on a flat spot. Or do I fail my physics here?

That is true, although it won't make much of a difference unless the angle is quite large. And at the scale of personal armor I think the entire difference is going to be very small.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 18:46:22

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
it's actually increasing the amount of blunt force trauma by increasing the amount of surface area available to receive blast pressure.

Wouldn't the power armor negate the damage though? I mean, this isn't plate armor, this is a sophisticated piece of hardware with dampeners and crap.
Well, I would imagine anyway. It would be pretty poor powered armor if the occupant can be hurt by anything less than a direct hit from a wrecking ball.

Sure, it'll probably protect you. It'll still wear out faster though, and let's face it, who creates suboptimal armour on purpouse?

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 18:49:56

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
it's actually increasing the amount of blunt force trauma by increasing the amount of surface area available to receive blast pressure.

Wouldn't the power armor negate the damage though? I mean, this isn't plate armor, this is a sophisticated piece of hardware with dampeners and crap.
Well, I would imagine anyway. It would be pretty poor powered armor if the occupant can be hurt by anything less than a direct hit from a wrecking ball.

Sure, it'll probably protect you. It'll still wear out faster though, and let's face it, who creates suboptimal armour on purpouse?

Then the armor did its job. The fact that it wears out is irrelevant; its purpose is solely to protect the occupant.

Reply by: AlmightyWalrus - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 18:54:02

Post by: AlmightyWalrus

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
it's actually increasing the amount of blunt force trauma by increasing the amount of surface area available to receive blast pressure.

Wouldn't the power armor negate the damage though? I mean, this isn't plate armor, this is a sophisticated piece of hardware with dampeners and crap.
Well, I would imagine anyway. It would be pretty poor powered armor if the occupant can be hurt by anything less than a direct hit from a wrecking ball.

Sure, it'll probably protect you. It'll still wear out faster though, and let's face it, who creates suboptimal armour on purpouse?

Then the armor did its job. The fact that it wears out is irrelevant; its purpose is solely to protect the occupant.

If you could build a piece of armour that is equivalent to another one but wears out slower than that other one the first one is clearly superior. It'll also increase the risk of something hitting that the armour can't protect from, which is, again, suboptimal.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:04:36

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
it's actually increasing the amount of blunt force trauma by increasing the amount of surface area available to receive blast pressure.

Wouldn't the power armor negate the damage though? I mean, this isn't plate armor, this is a sophisticated piece of hardware with dampeners and crap.
Well, I would imagine anyway. It would be pretty poor powered armor if the occupant can be hurt by anything less than a direct hit from a wrecking ball.

Sure, it'll probably protect you. It'll still wear out faster though, and let's face it, who creates suboptimal armour on purpouse?

Then the armor did its job. The fact that it wears out is irrelevant; its purpose is solely to protect the occupant.

If you could build a piece of armour that is equivalent to another one but wears out slower than that other one the first one is clearly superior. It'll also increase the risk of something hitting that the armour can't protect from, which is, again, suboptimal.

And if you could build a starship that did not have excess weight and materials put into it due to the massive cathedrals on it, then that starship would be optimal.
When it comes to the IoM, its kinda silly to talk about optimal performance.

If we are talking about armor getting worn down quickly, what about those massive paudrons on SM? Wouldn't they draw a lot of fire, requiring excessive repairs? And its a much larger area than the SoB's cleavage (or what is supposed to be cleavage. Looking closely, there's not that much of a gap) so more materials are required.

Why is my text hyper-linked and orange?

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:08:58

Post by: Grey Templar

1) wieght matters not in space.

2) The pauldrons actually serve a purpose. They protect the head.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:13:09

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) wieght matters not in space.

2) The pauldrons actually serve a purpose. They protect the head.

1) True, but that is still a lot of materials, and it does make the craft a bigger target.

2) That's what helmets are for. Of course, considering how SM commanders always seem to forget their helmets, they probably do need the pauldrons.

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:16:55

Post by: Grey Templar

The pauldrons are additional protection.

When actually fighting. A soldier will have his body sideways to the enemy more often then not. This places the pauldron directly between the head and the enemy(with just enough room to peak over it)

FWIW, I haven't got a single marine model that's not wearing his helmet.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:20:44

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Grey Templar wrote:
The pauldrons are additional protection.

When actually fighting. A soldier will have his body sideways to the enemy more often then not. This places the pauldron directly between the head and the enemy(with just enough room to peak over it)

FWIW, I haven't got a single marine model that's not wearing his helmet.

Its a bit low to protect the head, isn't it?

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:21:57

Post by: Grey Templar

No, pauldrons can be moved by Servos to come up to protect the head. Essentially they can be down to allow for visibility, or up to allow for more protection.

The marine does this simply by thinking about it.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:23:52

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, pauldrons can be moved by Servos to come up to protect the head. Essentially they can be down to allow for visibility, or up to allow for more protection.

The marine does this simply by thinking about it.

Where does that come from? I don't remember reading about that.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:24:40

Post by: Lynata

Grey Templar wrote:1) wieght matters not in space.

That's true. Some ships do operate in low orbit, however, or even land on the surface.
Excess material consumption is also still excess material consumption. Gothic look ftw. Or, as VSgt pointed out, "RoC".

Grey Templar wrote:2) The pauldrons actually serve a purpose. They protect the head.

True again. A better example of Marine armour silliness would be the oversized chestplate preventing proper arm mobility. They couldn't even aim their guns if they hadn't autosenses.

Wait, don't you need a helmet for that? Oshi-

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Where does that come from? I don't remember reading about that.

I believe that is an interpretation of the pauldrons being described as "auto-reactive".
I don't recall ever reading it in a GW book, too, though. Perhaps some novel or FFG's RPG?

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:26:30

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:1) wieght matters not in space.

That's true. Some ships do operate in low orbit, however, or even land on the surface.
Excess material consumption is also still excess material consumption. Gothic look ftw. Or, as VSgt pointed out, "RoC".

Grey Templar wrote:2) The pauldrons actually serve a purpose. They protect the head.

True again. A better example of Marine armour silliness would be the oversized chestplate preventing proper arm mobility. They couldn't even aim their guns if they hadn't autosenses.

Wait, don't you need a helmet for that? Oshi-

Oh damn! I knew I should have brought up that the chest plate on SM looked ridiculous!
Couldn't put my finger on why though

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:30:43

Post by: Lynata

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Oh damn! I knew I should have brought up that the chest plate on SM looked ridiculous!
Couldn't put my finger on why though

I really wonder how much of this is the fault of "HeroScale", though. Judging from the minis, a Marine couldn't even bend his arms more than this: _|
Which makes this Sergeant's bolt pistol scope pretty ridiculous, when you think about it: http://www.funtoysandgames.co.uk/user/products/large/Space%20marine%20tactical%20squad.jpg
Unless of course he's fine aiming with a straight arm. Perhaps his genetically engineered eyes are just that good.

RoC hard at work again.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 19:34:28

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Lynata wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Oh damn! I knew I should have brought up that the chest plate on SM looked ridiculous!
Couldn't put my finger on why though

I really wonder how much of this is the fault of "HeroScale", though. Judging from the minis, a Marine couldn't even bend his arms more than this: _|
Which makes this Sergeant's bolt pistol scope pretty ridiculous, when you think about it: http://www.funtoysandgames.co.uk/user/products/large/Space%20marine%20tactical%20squad.jpg
Unless of course he's fine aiming with a straight arm. Perhaps his genetically engineered eyes are just that good.

RoC hard at work again.

Can they even aim properly in the artwork? I don't think I've ever seen a SM taking aim.

Reply by: Crimson - click to view full reply 

50012

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 20:06:35

Post by: Crimson

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) wieght matters not in space.

Eh, weight doesn't matter, but mass certainly does.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 20:12:24

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Crimson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) wieght matters not in space.

Eh, weight doesn't matter, but mass certainly does.

Holy crap, that's right. The mass from the materials would impact how fast the ship would be able to maneuver, as acceleration = force/mass.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 20:16:39

Post by: Lynata

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Can they even aim properly in the artwork? I don't think I've ever seen a SM taking aim.

In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is only hip firing.

Nah, I think I've actually seen a few artworks and even minis where they do aim with ironsights, but only on a gun held single-handedly by a straight arm.
To have them aim with a weapon held by two hands, an artist or sculptor would prolly either have to "cheat" (i.e. ignore the "clipping" that spectators wouldn't really see anyways), or the Marine would have to use a weapon that works with this limitation. Such as the missile launcher. Or those reaaally old bolters that were carried on the shoulder (those looked fugly, though).

It's not a problem where the Marine wears a helmet, as you could just say the gun is linked to it, but for those who don't ... well.

It's a little better with Marine Scouts as they are less bulky and have cloth arms, but even there it may occasionally look a bit awkward when the head and the gun may not align perfectly.
http://chaosorc.com/images/Warhammer%2040K%20Space%20Marine%20Scouts%20with%20Sniper%20Rifles%20Box.jpg
Look at the sniper on the bottom, it's obvious he does not have a clear view through his scope as he fires.

Reply by: Hollowman - click to view full reply 

48768

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 20:23:58

Post by: Hollowman

It's not the way it ought to be, but operating from a place where objectifying women in our wargames is okay because we objectify the men is okay is a false dichotomy.

I just can't see what you mean here. Leaving aside Reps for the moment, SoB as a whole just look like.. women. I've seen models that were designed to be looked at as sex objects, and sisters are not them. They are fully covered, some wear a corset piece, which many women choose to do to this day and was very common in times past (particularly the religious era SoB are rooted in). Their breasts are somewhat exaggerated in size, which happens to a number of body parts at this scale. Of course, they are objectified in the most basic sense - they are objects. I can't treat them as an individual with hopes and dreams, because they are pewter. But the only thing I can see that makes them distinctly different from a male model is that they are clearly women.

I'm a little perplexed by a worldview that magically makes something objectified simply by making it female.

This argument has been going on since day one, it isn't just now. You may not have noticed, but the cover of the 2cnd ed codex (posted above) drew immediate criticism for the stripper pose on the cover with all the creepy old men leering in the background.

The creepy old men are clearly that - creepy old men. I think that is a dynamic is one that should be acknowledged a bit - the Ecclesiarchy ARE a bunch of creepy old men training brainwashed adopted girls to fight their battles for them. It's significant that the ladies are the one's who actually have faith in the game, I think. Anyway, the artist clearly likes the female form (which may or may not be a bad thing), but nothing about that cover puts the men in a good light. Show me a Sister swooning into the arms of a Marine, and I'll see a bit more to worry about. As drawn, I see the image more about the contrast between the youth, faith and determination of the Sister and the corrupt, opulent sloth of the men sending her into battle. Looks like a not at all subtle dig at the Church to me.

With an admittedly generous helping of sexy on the lady. On the one hand, it is a bit overdone, and doesn't match what you see on the table. On the other hand, it's well within the bounds of what I feel women should be comfortable wearing. Unmilitarized it's what - tight pants, boots and a fitted top? Women can, do, and should be able to wear that. Again, I'm not sure I like the implications that if you shrink down what women wear and make a model out of it, suddenly it's objectification. And that picture is, literally, the most sexualized SoB I have ever seen.

Reply by: 1hadhq - click to view full reply 

6838

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 21:01:28

Post by: 1hadhq

CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Can they even aim properly in the artwork? I don't think I've ever seen a SM taking aim.

As a model, yes.

( SM veterans Mk 2 box )


Look at boltgun aiming ..... if this isn't good enough to spot it, I could take a pic of the unpainted model..
Here we go:



and I am sure the Las-canon Devastator model shows this too.

Edit: broken pic..

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 21:02:34

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 1hadhq wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:



Can they even aim properly in the artwork? I don't think I've ever seen a SM taking aim.

As a model, yes.



Look at boltgun aiming ..... if this isn't good enough to spot it, I could take a pic of the unpainted model..

and I am sure the Las-canon Devastator model shows this too.

The picture doesn't work, sadly.

Reply by: Surtur - click to view full reply 

27987

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 21:15:45

Post by: Surtur

I like my bdsm spaace nazi nuns. Don't change it.

Reply by: variable - click to view full reply 

59789

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/20 23:25:56

Post by: variable

Hollowman

I just can't see what you mean here...<snip>

You are welcome to read over the numerous posts I've made attempting to explain my point, my reasoning, and my opinions. You are even welcome to consider why I see things that way, to the limited degree that I've explained that I do, but you are not welcome to dismiss everything I've said without demonstrating even any attempt to understand or respond to what I've said. You've made your point, it's not supported by the evidence, mine is. I'm not even going to bother to give you more consideration than that. I mean, I was working with you, but you said, "I'm a little perplexed by a worldview that magically makes something objectified simply by making it female." which is a stupid red herring since I think my first post on this topic listed 3 women who were awesome examples of sci-fi women fighters.

Reply by: Inquisitor Ehrenstein - click to view full reply 

51375

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 00:39:20

Post by: Inquisitor Ehrenstein

 Hollowman wrote:

It's not the way it ought to be, but operating from a place where objectifying women in our wargames is okay because we objectify the men is okay is a false dichotomy.

I just can't see what you mean here. Leaving aside Reps for the moment, SoB as a whole just look like.. women. I've seen models that were designed to be looked at as sex objects, and sisters are not them. They are fully covered, some wear a corset piece, which many women choose to do to this day and was very common in times past (particularly the religious era SoB are rooted in). Their breasts are somewhat exaggerated in size, which happens to a number of body parts at this scale. Of course, they are objectified in the most basic sense - they are objects. I can't treat them as an individual with hopes and dreams, because they are pewter. But the only thing I can see that makes them distinctly different from a male model is that they are clearly women.

I'm a little perplexed by a worldview that magically makes something objectified simply by making it female.

This argument has been going on since day one, it isn't just now. You may not have noticed, but the cover of the 2cnd ed codex (posted above) drew immediate criticism for the stripper pose on the cover with all the creepy old men leering in the background.

The creepy old men are clearly that - creepy old men. I think that is a dynamic is one that should be acknowledged a bit - the Ecclesiarchy ARE a bunch of creepy old men training brainwashed adopted girls to fight their battles for them. It's significant that the ladies are the one's who actually have faith in the game, I think. Anyway, the artist clearly likes the female form (which may or may not be a bad thing), but nothing about that cover puts the men in a good light. Show me a Sister swooning into the arms of a Marine, and I'll see a bit more to worry about. As drawn, I see the image more about the contrast between the youth, faith and determination of the Sister and the corrupt, opulent sloth of the men sending her into battle. Looks like a not at all subtle dig at the Church to me.

With an admittedly generous helping of sexy on the lady. On the one hand, it is a bit overdone, and doesn't match what you see on the table. On the other hand, it's well within the bounds of what I feel women should be comfortable wearing. Unmilitarized it's what - tight pants, boots and a fitted top? Women can, do, and should be able to wear that. Again, I'm not sure I like the implications that if you shrink down what women wear and make a model out of it, suddenly it's objectification. And that picture is, literally, the most sexualized SoB I have ever seen.

People just get excited since it's women looking attractive. It's also guys doing this, for the record, not women. In my experience, the only guys who have complained about this had no experience with women and were fully engaged in all out white knighting against any supposed criticism or teasing directed at women.

Reply by: Hollowman - click to view full reply 

48768

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 02:30:05

Post by: Hollowman

You are welcome to read over the numerous posts I've made attempting to explain my point, my reasoning, and my opinions. You are even welcome to consider why I see things that way, to the limited degree that I've explained that I do, but you are not welcome to dismiss everything I've said without demonstrating even any attempt to understand or respond to what I've said. You've made your point, it's not supported by the evidence, mine is. I'm not even going to bother to give you more consideration than that. I mean, I was working with you, but you said, "I'm a little perplexed by a worldview that magically makes something objectified simply by making it female." which is a stupid red herring since I think my first post on this topic listed 3 women who were awesome examples of sci-fi women fighters.

It's not a red herring at all, since none of the female characters you listed were models, which are literally objects. I can clearly appreciate Starbuck as a person (albeit fictional). I cannot appreciate my heavy bolter Sister as a person. I cannot judge her actions, or dismiss her humanity by ignoring it in favor of her sexual attributes. We are literally talking about nothing but appearance here -and to talk about models presented in clothing that is no more (and really, far less) revealing than the usual garb of modern women as very sexualized and encouraging objectification starts to veer dangerously close to some kind of passive aggressive attack on the choices of a large number of women. One can note that all the characters you noted admiring are also known for a fairly reserved, practical approach to fashion. SoB are more ornate, but that is not a bad thing. Nor is it a sex thing.

The only fact in this conversation that has anything to do with your point is that SoB have larger than average breasts, assuming their armor is fitted - fair enough. I assume that is because at the models scale they exaggerated pretty much all human features to make them visible. Ypu assume they were enlarged for more prurient interests. Well, that's certainly an option. I don't think that fact, standing alone, is enough to damn the range of models.

I'm not sure where you feel you have worked with me, since as far as I know this is the first direct interaction we have had at all. Nor where I dismiss everything, or indeed anything, you have said. I said you seem to be using a system of judging models which I find peculiar.

Reply by: variable - click to view full reply 

59789

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 04:16:42

Post by: variable

In my experience, the only guys who have complained about this had no experience with women and were fully engaged in all out white knighting against any supposed criticism or teasing directed at women.

That's a pretty base personal attack.

Reply by: Somedude593 - click to view full reply 

61774

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 04:23:48

Post by: Somedude593

not really ( BAM! DISCUSSION ENDED)

Reply by: Grey Templar - click to view full reply 

20243

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 04:57:35

Post by: Grey Templar

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) wieght matters not in space.

Eh, weight doesn't matter, but mass certainly does.

Holy crap, that's right. The mass from the materials would impact how fast the ship would be able to maneuver, as acceleration = force/mass.

Yes, and thats why 40k ships take time to turn in space. If a ship turns to fast it may suffer damage. Moving at relativistic speeds will do that to you.

Reply by: DeffDred - click to view full reply 

44326

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 05:21:42

Post by: DeffDred

This was labeled as "Greek Female Armour".



Sorry it's huge.

Reply by: Somedude593 - click to view full reply 

61774

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 05:24:01

Post by: Somedude593

that armour was probably not worn by a woman as no society in greece let their women go to battle. men ( regrettably) can get boob looking things if their is fat over their muscle and this is probably an example of that

Reply by: DeffDred - click to view full reply 

44326

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 05:26:16

Post by: DeffDred

 Somedude593 wrote:
that armour was probably not worn by a woman as no society in greece let their women go to battle. men ( regrettably) can get boob looking things if their is fat over their muscle and this is probably an example of that

Amazons.

Reply by: Somedude593 - click to view full reply 

61774

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 05:27:38

Post by: Somedude593

.... i dont even know how to respond to that

Reply by: DeffDred - click to view full reply 

44326

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 05:33:35

Post by: DeffDred

Well in truth the Amazons lived on the eastern side of the Black Sea, closer to the Caspian Sea... I'm not sure if that area would be concidered Greece in the ancient world.

Most of my ancient maps are of the Khan territories and I have a nice pre-Reagan Germany. Nothing much of Greeks and Romans.

Reply by: Hollowman - click to view full reply 

48768

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 07:43:04

Post by: Hollowman

 Somedude593 wrote:
that armour was probably not worn by a woman as no society in greece let their women go to battle. men ( regrettably) can get boob looking things if their is fat over their muscle and this is probably an example of that

It might well have been worn by a culture near the greeks - certain Celtic and Illyrian cultures seem to have occasionally allowed women on the battlefield, and the Scythians seem to have had women take the field pretty routinely, in full armor and all. I'm pretty sure if anything inspired the tales of Amazons, it was probably Scythian or Sarmation women warriors - but no one has found anything like the Amazons as described by the Greeks.

Reply by: h4z7-j0s3 - click to view full reply 

62950

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 08:05:13

Post by: h4z7-j0s3

Why doesn't someone make a poll? My two cents, people really like the boob plates. DakkaDakka's been talking about it for over six pages now.

<==

Reply by: Marrak - click to view full reply 

14098

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 08:07:49

Post by: Marrak

On the first page someone mentioned actual armor for women showing... for lack of a better term... "boob plates" or the equivolent. Now I imagine that they'd need some room for breasts, but I'd truly be interested in seeing what armor the poster was referring too. (Sorry, it's 1 in the morning and I'm feeling particularly lazy, so I don't remember who posted it).

Reply by: Inquisitor Ehrenstein - click to view full reply 

51375

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/21 23:52:27

Post by: Inquisitor Ehrenstein

 variable wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
In my experience, the only guys who have complained about this had no experience with women and were fully engaged in all out white knighting against any supposed criticism or teasing directed at women.

That's a pretty base personal attack.

No. It's an observation. Now, I don't know a huge number of people that applies to, but that's what I've observed.

Reply by: RedAngel - click to view full reply 

62921

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 00:08:48

Post by: RedAngel

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The problem is that the way the SoB power armor is not designed for a standard view. It was built in that matter because of whole "Men under arms" Issue they have that the Church cannot have a standard army.

By showing that the SoB, the militant wing of the church is feminine and full female, it allows for them to continue to exploit that loophole.

Thats a good point. I dont know if its entirely necesary to have breasts on the breast plate, but it is important to remember that the SoB is trying to distinguish themselves from the Adeptus Astartes. If anything needs to be re-envisioned its how smart it is/isnt to wear high heels in a roiling combat.

That being said, the femme fatale is an important archtype. Women gamers also want thesuper cool sexy chic model. Trust me, im married to one.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 00:11:45

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

RedAngel wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The problem is that the way the SoB power armor is not designed for a standard view. It was built in that matter because of whole "Men under arms" Issue they have that the Church cannot have a standard army.

By showing that the SoB, the militant wing of the church is feminine and full female, it allows for them to continue to exploit that loophole.

Thats a good point. I dont know if its entirely necesary to have breasts on the breast plate, but it is important to remember that the SoB is trying to distinguish themselves from the Adeptus Astartes. If anything needs to be re-envisioned its how smart it is/isnt to wear high heels in a roiling combat.

That being said, the femme fatale is an important archtype. Women gamers also want thesuper cool sexy chic model. Trust me, im married to one.

I would just like to point out that the SoB don't actually wear high heels into battle.
That belief comes from an old picture of an SoB from 2nd edition; the models themselves don't have high heels.
Everything else is fine.

Reply by: IcedAnimals - click to view full reply 

39912

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 02:39:29

Post by: IcedAnimals

The new plastic sisters will have ever so slight high heels just to mess with people. watch.

Reply by: Kaldor - click to view full reply 

46926

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 03:07:01

Post by: Kaldor

 IcedAnimals wrote:
The new plastic sisters will have ever so slight high heels just to mess with people. watch.

Don't be silly.

There'll never be plastic sisters!

Reply by: LunaHound - click to view full reply 

10345

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 05:35:57

Post by: LunaHound

 Kaldor wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is absurd to claim that nuns that wear corsets as an armour are not sexualised. I do not think it is a bad thing, but denying it is silly.

They're fully enclosing ceramite breastplates. Calling it a corset is about as valid as calling a Marine breastplate a corset, or calling the chest armour on a Cadian a bra.

You are getting confused between what material its made out of, vs what it is.

Its a ceramite corset plain and simple. The designer is fully aware of that, infact im pretty sure thats why they designed such aesthetics.
See pic? that is an armored corset. It does not matter if its made out of linen or metal or jello, its an aesthetic style designed for the armor.

Any more doubts?

Reply by: Kaldor - click to view full reply 

46926

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 06:51:11

Post by: Kaldor

Yep.

And this



is a bra.

Reply by: Purifier - click to view full reply 

60662

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 09:12:11

Post by: Purifier

I think the whole discussion is silly.

I like the sisters. I think they are badass just the way they are. I like that they embrace, rather than try to push away, that they are women.

I even like the repentia. "Oh noes, breasts, objectification!"
Push off! I love the idea of badass women not giving a sh*t that their titties are hanging out, they only care about cleaving your head in two.

It has nothing to do with objectification. I see them as female Ramboes. They're not prude little girls. They are women laying down the law.



OH NOES, AVERT THINE EYES, IT IS NUDITY IN FULL!

Reply by: LunaHound - click to view full reply 

10345

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 09:54:50

Post by: LunaHound

 Kaldor wrote:
Yep.

And this



is a bra.

You are hopeless I give up.

Reply by: Mr Morden - click to view full reply 

30490

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 11:46:24

Post by: Mr Morden

For various reasons mentioned earlier in the thread - keep them as is.

plus no-one talking about Howling Banshee Aspect Armour or some of the older guadian armour - Eldar have breasts too?

There is some good depicitions of Sycthian female warriors (or Sakje) in the novels here:

http://www.hippeis.com/tyrantseries.html
http://www.hippeis.com/srayanka.html

Reply by: Alkasyn - click to view full reply 

19636

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 13:45:43

Post by: Alkasyn

I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

Reply by: Purifier - click to view full reply 

60662

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 13:56:32

Post by: Purifier

 Alkasyn wrote:
I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

haha, oh wow.
That open vulva.

Reply by: Crimson - click to view full reply 

50012

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 14:02:24

Post by: Crimson

That there are way more sexualised models, doesn't mean SoB are not at all sexualised. Not that I think that this is a problem.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 16:32:02

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Alkasyn wrote:
I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

Da fuq did I just see...people actually buy that?
She must have excellent reflexes and impenetrable skin.

You see people, that is an example of bad cheesecake.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:05:13

Post by: Lynata

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Da fuq did I just see...people actually buy that?
She must have excellent reflexes and impenetrable skin.

To be fair, she fits right in with a setting like Conan. Or even D&D (-> Priestesses of Eilistraee).
Imho, things like these always need to be seen in comparison to the (fictional) culture they exist in. There can be instances where they are almost expected.

Naked men and women in Conan: Fine.
Naked men and women in LotR: Silly.
and likewise
Boob plates in 40k: Fine.
Boob plates in Star Wars: Silly.

Reply by: KalashnikovMarine - click to view full reply 

61627

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:20:39

Post by: KalashnikovMarine

 Alkasyn wrote:
I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

....I feel like stuff like that is why people seriously judge this hobby

Reply by: Skriker - click to view full reply 

44749

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:22:10

Post by: Skriker

 LunaHound wrote:
Here is the question, why is everyone so worked up about the armor, and especially the chest part?

Why not get worked up on the thigh and leg armor too?
oh and the gauntlet as well?

Or their highly impractical and pretty stupid looking high-heeled boots for heaven's sake??

Skriker

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:28:27

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Skriker wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Here is the question, why is everyone so worked up about the armor, and especially the chest part?

Why not get worked up on the thigh and leg armor too?
oh and the gauntlet as well?

Or their highly impractical and pretty stupid looking high-heeled boots for heaven's sake??

Skriker

Gaah why doesn't anyone just look at the models for ffs!
There.Are.No.High.Heeled.Boots.
We've been over this about 3 times already; the only case of high heeled boots on the SoB was on an old art piece by Blanche from second edition.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:28:37

Post by: Lynata

Skriker wrote:Or their highly impractical and pretty stupid looking high-heeled boots for heaven's sake??

You mean the ones they don't have?

PS: Just stumbled over these. DO WANT!
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Sisters_of_Battle_-_Collectors_Guide#Unreleased_from_1997

Reply by: KalashnikovMarine - click to view full reply 

61627

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:30:30

Post by: KalashnikovMarine

 Skriker wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Here is the question, why is everyone so worked up about the armor, and especially the chest part?

Why not get worked up on the thigh and leg armor too?
oh and the gauntlet as well?

Or their highly impractical and pretty stupid looking high-heeled boots for heaven's sake??

Skriker

....they don't /have/ high heeled boots.

Like at all. Not a single model in my just shy of 2000 points of sisters has heels.

Reply by: Crimson - click to view full reply 

50012

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:34:50

Post by: Crimson

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

....they don't /have/ high heeled boots.

Yeah, I hope they fix that once they make the plastics. Along with the hair.

Reply by: Baronyu - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:36:13

Post by: Baronyu

I'll answer with a question: Would the lack of boob plate improve SoB's popularity? I don't think they're "popular" because of their boobs, there are better boob plate models on the table(DE, because of newer models) and SoB players are still playing SoB. Their problem right now is that they're just one step from being renamed to "Grey Knight's armour paint", possibly because it isn't very catchy.

But to be on topic, if they're well designed and well within the style of WH40k(ie lot of skulls), then I wouldn't mind if they lost their boob plate, but I would hate it if the redesign is because of some silly gamer being insecure(Oh no, people I don't know are judging me!)... Because honestly, realism? In 40k? Half of the armies available can summon a lightning blizzard storm during a lava rain while shooting javelins made of blood, all with the power of "warp", and boob plates are the 1st "unrealistic" thing you find?!

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:36:35

Post by: Lynata

Crimson wrote:Yeah, I hope they fix that once they make the plastics. Along with the hair.

100 lashes for you, heretic!

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/22 17:38:25

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Crimson wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

....they don't /have/ high heeled boots.

Yeah, I hope they fix that once they make the plastics. Along with the hair.

Seriously man? As much as I liked the high heeled boots in the artwork, I'm not sure if it would be a good idea army wide.
Maybe for a character or an assassin unit, but your grunts? Keep them as they are.
I don't see the problem with the hair though. Not the style anyway; all they have to do is make it less blocky and more like in the art.

Or at least make it optional. Like, you may have high heeled boots on your sisters, or just normal boots.
Everybody wins!

Reply by: Pouncey - click to view full reply 

43778

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/23 06:18:14

Post by: Pouncey

On the subject of boob plates in WH40k... When I showed my mom my first painted Howling Banshees, she asked, ". . . Shouldn't she be wearing some armor?" She thought they were nude, because of the form-fitting and skin-colored bodysuit. I painted their armor in Bleached Bone, by the way. Even though I've explained to her that that is their actual uniform color and they are wearing armor, and have showed her the thicker armor in places and the helmets and in-laid gems and everything . . . every time I take them out of their case, she says, "I still think they look naked."

My mom has some vision problems because her glasses are a bit old (she can't read the smaller, paper-back rulebooks from the starter kits) but still!

I have no issues with the boob plates on the Sororitas armor, personally. I liked that half-boob-plate, as one of you guys put it, that was posted earlier, with the flat plate over the top of the chest; it seemed like a nice compromise. But meh, I'd be fine with them so long as they're recognizably female and retain their holy warrior theme. And no, the female thing isn't, "for the boobs," or anything like that; I just prefer playing female characters in MMOs, and prefer playing armies with female models and stuff like that - part of why I also play Eldar.

Reply by: Shandara - click to view full reply 

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Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/23 08:57:21

Post by: Shandara

Given the bad proportions of the models of the SoB line (heads too big, torso bit too short, etc..) I don't think you could them sexualized. Fully covered in armour, as well.

Compared to those BaneLegions models, really.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/23 13:31:16

Post by: Lynata

Pouncey wrote:I liked that half-boob-plate, as one of you guys put it, that was posted earlier, with the flat plate over the top of the chest; it seemed like a nice compromise.

How is that a compromise? That's Space Marine armour.

Reply by: Ghiest1 - click to view full reply 

32915

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/23 14:57:51

Post by: Ghiest1

Having built armor for some women in my fighting group (live steel) I have never built the "boob plates". I just modfied the male pattern to accomadate the excess chest, and flared the armor more near the hips. It was never about showing the chest off as much as not getting hurt. When breasts are that close to the armor and the blow is a solid one, it just hurts and leaves unsightly bruises. Often female steel fighters will just deal with the male armor or often use a Churburrg breastplate which offers a ton of flexability. As for the GW version, I agree with many on here use Luna's pic. To create a more femine profile, widen the hips and thighs, take in the waist and neck. Walk behind your significant other and notice this is what their body does.

Reply by: AegisGrimm - click to view full reply 

54729

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/23 15:53:06

Post by: AegisGrimm

Having built armor for some women in my fighting group (live steel) I have never built the "boob plates". I just modfied the male pattern to accomadate the excess chest, and flared the armor more near the hips. It was never about showing the chest off as much as not getting hurt. When breasts are that close to the armor and the blow is a solid one, it just hurts and leaves unsightly bruises. Often female steel fighters will just deal with the male armor or often use a Churburrg breastplate which offers a ton of flexability. As for the GW version, I agree with many on here use Luna's pic. To create a more femine profile, widen the hips and thighs, take in the waist and neck. Walk behind your significant other and notice this is what their body does.

As an armor maker myself I can totally get behind that. I play at a fantasy LARP where we use real armor and my wife and I have been trying to come up with some good leather armor to fit her 36DDD upper half that also doesn't make her look like Xena. The best we can come up with looks mostly male with a barrel chest.

But when you are dealing with 1-inch tall humans though, I always was of the mind that you have to exaggerate unique details to make them stand out from the other figures. With guys that is the hands, head and muscles. With women it's making sure the butt as a shape (to an extent) and breasts.

Taking away the hyper-feminine look of the SoB risks making them look like skinny Space Marines with fleur de lys on them. Plus, the shape of a breast plate on a wargaming miniature isn't really as big an issue as this thread has made it out to be.

Reply by: Purifier - click to view full reply 

60662

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/23 15:56:59

Post by: Purifier

 Ghiest1 wrote:
Having built armor for some women in my fighting group (live steel) I have never built the "boob plates". I just modfied the male pattern to accomadate the excess chest, and flared the armor more near the hips. It was never about showing the chest off as much as not getting hurt. When breasts are that close to the armor and the blow is a solid one, it just hurts and leaves unsightly bruises. Often female steel fighters will just deal with the male armor or often use a Churburrg breastplate which offers a ton of flexability. As for the GW version, I agree with many on here use Luna's pic. To create a more femine profile, widen the hips and thighs, take in the waist and neck. Walk behind your significant other and notice this is what their body does.

How large are the pauldrons you make? This big?
If not, then let's just throw away the whole realism argument for SoB's armour.
PS: check out the guy's Buffaloes. That's old school kicks.

Reply by: Ghiest1 - click to view full reply 

32915

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/24 03:25:47

Post by: Ghiest1

Nice, actually often they are semented and taper down the arm in a cheveron pattern and have quite a close fit, the gorget rides partially underneath them. This creates a heavier armor then the 16 ga. would on its own apply. Depending on the fighters wishes, they will be attached to the gorget and the shoulder straps or just the gorget with laces to the back and front plates. My personal armor is actually quite close fitting, due to a fighting style preference, thiers is not, and has cell foam coverd by apolestry leather for addtional padding, and they also wear a gambeson.

Reply by: Skriker - click to view full reply 

44749

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/24 14:58:58

Post by: Skriker

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gaah why doesn't anyone just look at the models for ffs!
There.Are.No.High.Heeled.Boots.
We've been over this about 3 times already; the only case of high heeled boots on the SoB was on an old art piece by Blanche from second edition.

So very sorry to offend your sensibilities...

Skriker

Reply by: Alkasyn - click to view full reply 

19636

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/25 19:37:39

Post by: Alkasyn

 Lynata wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Da fuq did I just see...people actually buy that?
She must have excellent reflexes and impenetrable skin.

To be fair, she fits right in with a setting like Conan. Or even D&D (-> Priestesses of Eilistraee).
Imho, things like these always need to be seen in comparison to the (fictional) culture they exist in. There can be instances where they are almost expected.

Naked men and women in Conan: Fine.
Naked men and women in LotR: Silly.
and likewise
Boob plates in 40k: Fine.
Boob plates in Star Wars: Silly.

I agree here. Banelords models look OK in the setting they are a part of, that is, Celtic England.

Sisters look OK as aprt of the setting they belong to as well.

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/26 23:03:57

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

8 pages of trudging is bit much, but I get the gist of what people are saying, so here are my two cents...

ok the current armour of the SoB is a little daft, as all womens bewbs vary in size, so considering all Sororitas are orphans and not genetically bred like the SM's I find their over endowment a tad bemusing to say the least. But considering the models originate in a time where things were overly stylised in GW's core systems, they don't look all that bad in comparison.

But the system has moved on, and so should they imo... Ok I'm currently collecting a SoB army via ebay, and they are metal, but mixing them up wit newer variants wouldn't be so bad, kinda like the SM's armour variants. I think they should have a boob section in their armour, but it should be redesigned, as when Joan of Arc wore her armour she strapped hers down with strips of hessian cloth. somewhere between the two would be best, as imo again there needs to be variation in boob sizes... although somehow I think people would do armies with the biggest boobs allowed.

As someone said on page one, the sisters are far from being overly sexual in their appearence and fluff, but that doesnt mean all femininity should be suppressed either. one of the few times their female form is displayed is when they become Repentia, shedding all worldly goods for a life of repentance. Their sex and femininity is the driving appeal of the SoB, lose it and you lose their whole gimick.

anywho, thats my thoughts.

Reply by: BTNeophyte - click to view full reply 

47289

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/26 23:50:39

Post by: BTNeophyte

Sisters were popular

Sorry, too easy

Reply by: edweird - click to view full reply 

28109

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 00:54:46

Post by: edweird

I like the OP sketch... i would like to see that sculpt as a new codex Celestian(Elite/Command Sq) with an improved armor & shield of faith inv save (2+/5++) and +1 toughness... kinda making them the equilivant SoB termie armor.

Reply by: thefarseerofnorthryde - click to view full reply 

41558

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 01:17:45

Post by: thefarseerofnorthryde

The boob plate is dangerous. If you fall over, the boobs will hit first, and then thearmour will press into your chst and crush it.

Reply by: Gearhead - click to view full reply 

6229

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 02:20:09

Post by: Gearhead

Boob plate creates a great big shot trap, too.

Reply by: Amaya - click to view full reply 

34168

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 02:29:32

Post by: Amaya

Maybe they'd be popular if they had a real codex, plastic models, and original vehicles that weren't ripped out of the Marine codex.

They're basically veteran Guardsman in power armor with Marine vehicles and some special rules right now.


Yes, I am still angry about the Acts of Faith change. I liked having my 2++ and other shenanigans.

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 02:44:30

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

 Amaya wrote:
Maybe they'd be popular if they had a real codex, plastic models, and original vehicles that weren't ripped out of the Marine codex.

They're basically veteran Guardsman in power armor with Marine vehicles and some special rules right now.


Yes, I am still angry about the Acts of Faith change. I liked having my 2++ and other shenanigans.

Why be angry about it? I can still manage to win hands down under the current rules against allcomers. The Rhino template vehicles make sense because of the IoM fluff to do with them. tbh, rules and fluff wise there is nothing wrong with them... its their models that are the problem, if problem is even the right word...

Reply by: Amaya - click to view full reply 

34168

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 02:57:05

Post by: Amaya

Because, as I predicted, they have been streamlined and are essentially the same as GK with their each unit has a special ability crap.

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 03:05:22

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

And? They are a specialised force which focuses on their faith over the unstable psychic powers of other forces.

There's only so far you can go with game mechanics before you start to repeat other armies gimicks... SoB have always been about the fluff over game mechanics.

Reply by: Amaya - click to view full reply 

34168

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 03:12:20

Post by: Amaya

 AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
And? They are a specialised force which focuses on their faith over the unstable psychic powers of other forces.

There's only so far you can go with game mechanics before you start to repeat other armies gimicks... SoB have always been about the fluff over game mechanics.

That's a contradictory statement.

And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 03:15:50

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

regardless of what we each think, this is OT in a big way... I suggest we return to it.

Reply by: Pouncey - click to view full reply 

43778

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 03:26:09

Post by: Pouncey

 Lynata wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I liked that half-boob-plate, as one of you guys put it, that was posted earlier, with the flat plate over the top of the chest; it seemed like a nice compromise.

How is that a compromise? That's Space Marine armour.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/470752.page#4668252

That don't look like no Space Marine I ever saw.

In any case, I like their current style just fine.

Edit: I'd also add that so long as they remain recognizably female in one way or another, I don't care too much. Hell, if the plastics are different - whenever they come out - than the metals I'd probably like that more, since it'd make painting and assembling them more interesting - I like different but familiar things. It'd also give me a reason to buy more models, as at this point, I've pretty much run out of stuff I'd like to use but don't already have.

Enh, so long as they look like women.

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 15:07:46

Post by: Lynata

Pouncey wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/470752.page#4668252
That don't look like no Space Marine I ever saw.

Oh, I thought you were referring to OP's pic.
With the linked example, I'm simply going to say that it will be notably less apparent on a 28mm-scale miniature. Also, the point kind of gets lost. If the armour doesn't yell "I'm a girl rawr!" then it may as well be completely androgynous. The former is, I think, an important aspect not only of the Sisters' whole appearance but also 40k's "gothic" style in general. Stuff has to be exaggerated. The grander, the better. Just look at their architecture!

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:The boob plate is dangerous. If you fall over, the boobs will hit first, and then thearmour will press into your chst and crush it.

That would require the armour to deform, which might be a risk with stuff like a thin bronze sphere, but surely not with a 41st millennium sci-fi ceramite plate. The wearer would simply "hang" in the armour, the front plate surrounding the "cups" supporting the outer and inner sections of her ribcage.

Actually, even if the armour would deform, the only way it could harm the wearer would be if the "cups" somehow have a stronger integrity than the section of armour twixt them - in other words, all you'd have to do is to reinforce the middle section to negate the risk. Not that I think this risk would even apply to power armour.

Gearhead wrote:Boob plate creates a great big shot trap, too.

I call urban myth on this idea. The required angle for a shot to be deflected right into the midst of the armour would be quite small. Additionally, spin-stabilised armour-piercing projectiles such as bolt rounds react differently to sloped armour (they "eat" into it either way) than normal ones (which would probably simply fail to penetrate any section of the armour). Against las-weapons, the "cups" actually provide greater protection than a flat plate, as the incoming blast has a greater surface dispersion.

The only real risk would be allowing melee weapons to be guided towards the midst, but few close combat arms in 40k are actually stabbing rather than swinging. You could even argue that Space Marine shoulder pauldrons are more of a threat to their wearer, since a chainsword-swing at them will guide the weapon right towards the Marines' temple.

Reply by: Skriker - click to view full reply 

44749

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 15:12:34

Post by: Skriker

 Amaya wrote:
And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

It also wasn't entirely clear and often very confusing to opponents playing against it. The new system is easier to play and easier to face and understand. With the Witchhunters book I remember watching a friend play his sisters regularly and *every* battle *every* time he used an act of faith he had to explain it to the other side and make it clear how it worked. Some required a higher roll. Others required a lower roll. It was always confusing for his opponents because of this. Now the powers all work in a similar way.

Skriker

Reply by: Lynata - click to view full reply 

45703

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 15:36:28

Post by: Lynata

Personally, I think a medium between the old and the new would be best.

I actually like the idea of rolling for Faith points each turn. It means you have less of an "alpha strike" capability, but on the other hand you can afford to use FP outside of that one moment you were planning for, and which might never even really come. I suppose one might argue it's a bit less tactical (less pre-planning), but on the other hand you have more on-the-spot improvisation and adaption.
I also think the modifiers to AoF rolls are cool and fit to the fluff.

What I don't like is that AoF are so very limited now, basically just being a unique special ability you're not allowed to use every turn. Meh. Give us back a list of AoF that we can choose freely from, and all is well.

Oh, and FP rolls need to keep army size in mind. I believe someone's local group made a house role of 1d3 per 500 pts, which I think is a nice and easy fix to the issue.

Reply by: Pouncey - click to view full reply 

43778

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 16:59:36

Post by: Pouncey

 Lynata wrote:

Pouncey wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/470752.page#4668252
That don't look like no Space Marine I ever saw.

Oh, I thought you were referring to OP's pic.
With the linked example, I'm simply going to say that it will be notably less apparent on a 28mm-scale miniature. Also, the point kind of gets lost. If the armour doesn't yell "I'm a girl rawr!" then it may as well be completely androgynous. The former is, I think, an important aspect not only of the Sisters' whole appearance but also 40k's "gothic" style in general. Stuff has to be exaggerated. The grander, the better. Just look at their architecture!

Heh, it's alright. And yeah, I can see how the detail would be less recognizable on an inch-tall miniature than an image on a computer screen.

Enh, I don't have any issue with the boob plate as it is now on the Sisters models.

Reply by: Amaya - click to view full reply 

34168

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 17:21:51

Post by: Amaya

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

It also wasn't entirely clear and often very confusing to opponents playing against it. The new system is easier to play and easier to face and understand. With the Witchhunters book I remember watching a friend play his sisters regularly and *every* battle *every* time he used an act of faith he had to explain it to the other side and make it clear how it worked. Some required a higher roll. Others required a lower roll. It was always confusing for his opponents because of this. Now the powers all work in a similar way.

Skriker

The old system was not complicated or overly complex by any stretch of the imagination. People being unfamiliar with the rules or not paying attention does not justify dumbing the game down.

Reply by: Skriker - click to view full reply 

44749

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 20:10:25

Post by: Skriker

 Amaya wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

It also wasn't entirely clear and often very confusing to opponents playing against it. The new system is easier to play and easier to face and understand. With the Witchhunters book I remember watching a friend play his sisters regularly and *every* battle *every* time he used an act of faith he had to explain it to the other side and make it clear how it worked. Some required a higher roll. Others required a lower roll. It was always confusing for his opponents because of this. Now the powers all work in a similar way.

Skriker

The old system was not complicated or overly complex by any stretch of the imagination. People being unfamiliar with the rules or not paying attention does not justify dumbing the game down.

I didn't say it was overly complex or crazy complicated, just that in my experience every time I saw them being used on the table they were *confusing*. Why wouldn't you want to fix a mechanic that confuses players when it is used on the table? Imagine an army with some models with saving throws needing high numbers to save and others needing low numbers to save. It would confuse the heck out of you, unless you played the army yourself and often. That is what was happening here. It is one thing to be congnizant and understand the rules in another codex, but another entirely to be completely fully versed in a list you never have played and don't have the book for. The goal for playing shouldn't require you to have every army's rulebook to be able to play the game effectively and know your opponent isn't trying to pull a fast one. I played some games with my own witchhunters forces as well and sometimes, even knowing the rules I can't say I didn't think it sounded bogus the way I was describing the faith point powers. "Yeah this time I needed to roll higher than my target. Last time I needed to roll lower." Yeah...it just sounds questionable and I understand why it bothered other players and confused them.

Skriker

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 20:23:12

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

It also wasn't entirely clear and often very confusing to opponents playing against it. The new system is easier to play and easier to face and understand. With the Witchhunters book I remember watching a friend play his sisters regularly and *every* battle *every* time he used an act of faith he had to explain it to the other side and make it clear how it worked. Some required a higher roll. Others required a lower roll. It was always confusing for his opponents because of this. Now the powers all work in a similar way.

Skriker

The old system was not complicated or overly complex by any stretch of the imagination. People being unfamiliar with the rules or not paying attention does not justify dumbing the game down.

I didn't say it was overly complex or crazy complicated, just that in my experience every time I saw them being used on the table they were *confusing*. Why wouldn't you want to fix a mechanic that confuses players when it is used on the table? Imagine an army with some models with saving throws needing high numbers to save and others needing low numbers to save. It would confuse the heck out of you, unless you played the army yourself and often. That is what was happening here. It is one thing to be congnizant and understand the rules in another codex, but another entirely to be completely fully versed in a list you never have played and don't have the book for. The goal for playing shouldn't require you to have every army's rulebook to be able to play the game effectively and know your opponent isn't trying to pull a fast one. I played some games with my own witchhunters forces as well and sometimes, even knowing the rules I can't say I didn't think it sounded bogus the way I was describing the faith point powers. "Yeah this time I needed to roll higher than my target. Last time I needed to roll lower." Yeah...it just sounds questionable and I understand why it bothered other players and confused them.

Skriker

I heartily agree Skriker, this isn't dumbing down the game but streamlining it so it moves in a flowing manor. Sure thats how the game should be? Flowing! Witchhunters was an awefull codex, which is why it was shelved. the SoB focuses on the sisters finally again, and streamlining the acts of faith was a good move by GW, it not only makes them easier to use, but faster, which is something they needed as try playing with sisters in a 6V6 people apocalypse game under the witchhunters codex, it was a nightmare and slowed the game down stupidly.

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

39550

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/27 21:15:14

Post by: Psienesis

One thing that the change from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed did very, very well for Dungeons & Dragons was to make the math all go in the same direction. A "plus" to something is now always a good thing, a "minus" is always a bad thing. In 1st and 2nd Ed, however, this was not the case. You would want a "plus" on your to-hit roll, but a minus to your THAC0 was better. If you had to make a stat check, you would want either a minus to your roll, or a plus to the stat, but not vice-versa.

Thankfully, that sort of foolishness was done away with.

Reply by: Skriker - click to view full reply 

44749

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/28 15:01:40

Post by: Skriker

 Psienesis wrote:
One thing that the change from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed did very, very well for Dungeons & Dragons was to make the math all go in the same direction. A "plus" to something is now always a good thing, a "minus" is always a bad thing. In 1st and 2nd Ed, however, this was not the case. You would want a "plus" on your to-hit roll, but a minus to your THAC0 was better. If you had to make a stat check, you would want either a minus to your roll, or a plus to the stat, but not vice-versa.

Thankfully, that sort of foolishness was done away with.

Heartily agree here. Was always amusing watching the faces of new players as you explained that the +3 on your armor is actually *subtracted* from your armor class and not added to it. Hahahahahaha

Skriker

Reply by: Mike712 - click to view full reply 

59113

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/28 18:07:37

Post by: Mike712

 Kroothawk wrote:


If you want realistic warfare, 40k is not the place for you . In 40k, chain swords, tanks with 500mm calibre, and titans make sense. It is a collection of SciFi memes, where all men are strong and all women are sexy. If you want to change iconic armour in 40k to something more realistic, start with Space Marine shoulder pads

Actually shoulder pads protect you from centre mass shots when in a shooting stance.



Big shoulder pads actually make allot of sense if you're looking for maximum centre mass protection in a gun fight .

Reply by: Bobthehero - click to view full reply 

51866

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/28 21:32:36

Post by: Bobthehero

See the firewarrior pad for that.

Reply by: Daemonhammer - click to view full reply 

57235

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/28 21:40:45

Post by: Daemonhammer

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

Reply by: Wardragoon - click to view full reply 

38175

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/28 22:05:45

Post by: Wardragoon

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

I heartily disagree, Ogryn would not be better with boobs, neither would Orks nor Tyranids, all of them would be disturbing.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/28 22:11:43

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

I heartily disagree, Ogryn would not be better with boobs, neither would Orks nor Tyranids, all of them would be disturbing.

Great, now I'm thinking of 6 boobed broodlords, and those damned Orcish cheerleaders.

Reply by: ZebioLizard2 - click to view full reply 

53740

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/28 22:34:14

Post by: ZebioLizard2

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

I heartily disagree, Ogryn would not be better with boobs, neither would Orks nor Tyranids, all of them would be disturbing.

Great, now I'm thinking of 6 boobed broodlords, and those damned Orcish cheerleaders.

You see those once and then they haunt your dreams forever...

Reply by: Banzaimash - click to view full reply 

48017

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 01:13:35

Post by: Banzaimash

I think the funky corset/ boob-bump armour the sisters have going on is a bit too much. They could still look like the walking shrines they're supposed to be with more practical torso armour.

Reply by: CthuluIsSpy - click to view full reply 

47547

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 01:58:57

Post by: CthuluIsSpy

 Banzaimash wrote:
I think the funky corset/ boob-bump armour the sisters have going on is a bit too much. They could still look like the walking shrines they're supposed to be with more practical torso armour.

I think you just stated an oxymoron.

Reply by: Makumba - click to view full reply 

62560

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 08:58:02

Post by: Makumba

I heartily agree Skriker, this isn't dumbing down the game but streamlining it so it moves in a flowing manor. Sure thats how the game should be? Flowing! Witchhunters was an awefull codex, which is why it was shelved. the SoB focuses on the sisters finally again, and streamlining the acts of faith was a good move by GW, it not only makes them easier to use, but faster, which is something they needed as try playing with sisters in a 6V6 people apocalypse game under the witchhunters codex, it was a nightmare and slowed the game down stupidly.

wait So GW nerfed faith powers which worked perfectly well in non apo games to make the less offten , if ever played, apo games better ?
that makes no sense . It would make sense If Ward made them auto cast and less powerful , sort like eldar warlock powers . Or just build in to SoB units [all regular sob re-roll 1s to hit/wound for example] . They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .


ah and as apocalyps goes . The fact that sob get the same number of faith points at 500 and 5000pts is loltastic.
Only thing the WD dex did is that now SoB opponents dont have to learn how and when sob powers can be cast , how they work etc. The change didnt make the SoB work better , only thing it did is make them less playable . GW may have as well phased them out .

Reply by: Spetulhu - click to view full reply 

4817

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 10:07:03

Post by: Spetulhu

Makumba wrote:
They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .

It's still faster IMO. With the old codex I had to calculate starting Faith and keep the books on how much was used and how much I gained from martyrs. And I had to count the models in the squad every time to find the target number. And then explain it to my opponent once again when he got confused with high/low rolls or why an IC got to test on Leadership.

But I do agree that they should get a bit more in bigger games, and probably less in small games.

Reply by: ZebioLizard2 - click to view full reply 

53740

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 19:20:27

Post by: ZebioLizard2

Spetulhu wrote:

Makumba wrote:
They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .

It's still faster IMO. With the old codex I had to calculate starting Faith and keep the books on how much was used and how much I gained from martyrs. And I had to count the models in the squad every time to find the target number. And then explain it to my opponent once again when he got confused with high/low rolls or why an IC got to test on Leadership.

But I do agree that they should get a bit more in bigger games, and probably less in small games.

That sounds more like a personal issue rather than it being a universal thing.

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 19:30:19

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Makumba wrote:
They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .

It's still faster IMO. With the old codex I had to calculate starting Faith and keep the books on how much was used and how much I gained from martyrs. And I had to count the models in the squad every time to find the target number. And then explain it to my opponent once again when he got confused with high/low rolls or why an IC got to test on Leadership.

But I do agree that they should get a bit more in bigger games, and probably less in small games.

That sounds more like a personal issue rather than it being a universal thing.

Well the issue of having to explain in excruciating detail of what faith points do seems to have gone... so I don't see how its a personal thing :/

Reply by: Hetelic - click to view full reply 

60134

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 20:22:13

Post by: Hetelic

All I'm going to say is this..

Sometimes... some woman.. like to look like women. That is their choice.

Perhaps.. just perhaps.. the sisters -wanted- Feminine looking boob plates, because they wanted to look feminine?

All the talk of "armour efficiency" and "sexualisation" is irrelevant. The sisters are styled like that because thats the way someone decided to sculpt them. Why does there always have to be a "hidden agenda" to everything??

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 20:24:12

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

Hetelic... sense you speak

Reply by: Hollowman - click to view full reply 

48768

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 20:27:47

Post by: Hollowman

ah and as apocalyps goes . The fact that sob get the same number of faith points at 500 and 5000pts is loltastic.
Only thing the WD dex did is that now SoB opponents dont have to learn how and when sob powers can be cast , how they work etc. The change didnt make the SoB work better , only thing it did is make them less playable . GW may have as well phased them out .

The sky didn't fall, and the SoB are as playable as before - probably more competitive then they were through most of 5th. You don't see a lot of them simply because they remain absurdly expensive. The faith mechanic needs a bit of work for real codex release, but it's a good stopgap that makes things simpler and defines individual units roles, which is a good thing. They just need to work out something better than a flat d6, maybe make them somewhat easier to get off.

Reply by: AnUnearthlyChilde - click to view full reply 

53821

Would SoB become unpopular if they removed the boob plate? @ 2012/08/29 20:35:07

Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde

 Hollowman wrote:

ah and as apocalyps goes . The fact that sob get the same number of faith points at 500 and 5000pts is loltastic.
Only thing the WD dex did is that now SoB opponents dont have to learn how and when sob powers can be cast , how they work etc. The change didnt make the SoB work better , only thing it did is make them less playable . GW may have as well phased them out .

The sky didn't fall, and the SoB are as playable as before - probably more competitive then they were through most of 5th. You don't see a lot of them simply because they remain absurdly expensive. The faith mechanic needs a bit of work for real codex release, but it's a good stopgap that makes things simpler and defines individual units roles, which is a good thing. They just need to work out something better than a flat d6, maybe make them somewhat easier to get off.

And a lot of plastic mini's lols