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Post by: dufus0001
I have asked the question before if Danté's axe would qualify as a regular power weapon or specail becuase its mastercrafted and it is not. But, are you allowed to change the model to a power sword instead of the axe even being a unique character? I don't believe this to be modeling to your advantage because it would still abide by what the codex states: "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
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Post by: juraigamer
Being mastercrafted doesn't make it unusual. It's a power axe, because the model is holding an axe.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
However there is a gray area in the power weapon rules. Pg 61 states that a weapon listed in wargear as a powerweapon is wysiwyg, then in unique power weapons it states it must have weapon specific rules. This is not the case. It's listed as a named weapon, then is given the powerweapon rule along with the additional rule of master crafted. This is not covered in the rule book.
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Post by: kcwm
It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.
If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
 kcwm wrote:It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.
If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.
Like the "axe" morki?
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
kcwm wrote:It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.
If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.
Do normal power axes come with the ability to reroll one missed hit in close combat? Oh look, it has a special rule and thus you do NOT look to the weapon to determine the type or rules for it.
Main rulebook on power weapons if you need to reread the rules.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
Codex > BRB
Codex states it is a unique weapon.
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Post by: Camarodragon
Pleade read under equipment pg 23 codex blood angels.. It is very much unique.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
Mastercrafed is not a unique rule, its a special rule. As such it doesn't cause it to be automatically ap3, it may say axe, but it is not clarified 100%. At no time do they cover "named weapons with the rule of powerweapon" such as the glaive encarmine as another example, two handed and mastercrafted, but not listed as a powerweapon in the wargear. Listed as its named an given the rule of powerweapon.
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Post by: dufus0001
juraigamer wrote:Being mastercrafted doesn't make it unusual. It's a power axe, because the model is holding an axe.
Yeah, and what I want to know is if I can change it.
lostinthewarp wrote:However there is a gray area in the power weapon rules. Pg 61 states that a weapon listed in wargear as a powerweapon is wysiwyg, then in unique power weapons it states it must have weapon specific rules. This is not the case. It's listed as a named weapon, then is given the powerweapon rule along with the additional rule of master crafted. This is not covered in the rule book.
This.
kcwm wrote:It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.
If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.
Names mean nothing. A rose by any other name, yadda yadda yadda. The FAQ does not say it is an "axe."
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Do normal power axes come with the ability to reroll one missed hit in close combat? Oh look, it has a special rule and thus you do NOT look to the weapon to determine the type or rules for it.
Main rulebook on power weapons if you need to reread the rules.
Having a USR does not qualify it to be a "unique" weapon. This is the only rule that separates it from every other normal power weapon.
Camarodragon wrote:Pleade read under equipment pg 23 codex blood angels.. It is very much unique.
While it does say the weapon is unique, the only special rule it has is Master Crafted. This is NOT enough to be considered a "unique" weapon. Therefore, because pg. 53 states "The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon (not power axe, it's not in the FAQ) shouldn't it be able to be modeled with any power weapon?
lostinthewarp wrote:Mastercrafed is not a unique rule, its a special rule. As such it doesn't cause it to be automatically ap3, it may say axe, but it is not clarified 100%. At no time do they cover "named weapons with the rule of powerweapon" such as the glaive encarmine as another example, two handed and mastercrafted, but not listed as a powerweapon in the wargear. Listed as its named an given the rule of powerweapon.
All power weapons are AP3 initially. Then depending on the wysiwyg, other rules apply.
If you couldn't tell, all I want is Danté to go off at initiative 6 instead of 1 in close combat. Specifically for the purposes of challenges. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, this has made me want to make a new unique character who carries "The Scythe of Retribution." The Scythe of Retribution is a giant hammer.
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Post by: kcwm
The FAQ doesn't need to clarify that it's an axe because the name clearly indicates that it's an axe. A rose by any other name? Please. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe. GW isn't exactly known for writing clear and concise rules, but they aren't going to FAQ the name of a weapon because the name CLEARLY says what it is.
dufus0001 wrote:
If you couldn't tell, all I want is Danté to go off at initiative 6 instead of 1 in close combat. Specifically for the purposes of challenges.
.
Of course you want Dante to go at initiative 6. Unfortunately, with the edition change, he doesn't and you're simply trying to find a loophole in the rules that doesn't exist. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
Understood, and I the same. However... Seeing as it is not covered in the rules, one should either roll off on it or just give in for the sake of fun.
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Post by: dufus0001
kcwm wrote:
Of course you want Dante to go at initiative 6. Unfortunately, with the edition change, he doesn't and you're simply trying to find a loophole in the rules that doesn't exist. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe.
So the Scythe of Retribution is not a hammer then?
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Post by: DeathReaper
kcwm wrote:The FAQ doesn't need to clarify that it's an axe because the name clearly indicates that it's an axe. A rose by any other name? Please. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe. GW isn't exactly known for writing clear and concise rules, but they aren't going to FAQ the name of a weapon because the name CLEARLY says what it is
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Post by: dufus0001
Also, if you were to change Astorath the Grim's "The Executioner's Axe" into a sword, it would NOT change anything about it. You would have an Executioner's Axe Sword. So would this be an acceptable change?
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Post by: Sandyman11
As much as I hate to be on this side, I have to come in and say that yes, you can change the 'Axe' Mortalis to whatever power weapon you want (be it glaive, mace, sword etc) despite the name, as the name means nothing, it just acts as a tool to identify what particular weapon you're talking about, it doesn't define what the weapon is.
Codex states it is a power weapon, not a power axe, so you follow the normal procedure for figuring out what on earth it does.
'Also, if you were to change Astorath the Grim's "The Executioner's Axe" into a sword, it would NOT change anything about it. You would have an Executioner's Axe Sword. So would this be an acceptable change?'
The Executioner's Axe counts as an Unusual Power Weapon, and as such is not an 'axe' with regards to initiative and ap. It is an ap3 melee weapon that strikes at initiative order, with its special rules (strength 6, forces successful inv. saves to be re-rolled) So technically I suppose it could look like whatever you wanted it to, but whatever you chose to have it look like, it would still function as stated above.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
Oh how I wish that was true, however it is the axe, then the power weapon. So either a) it is a non power axe ap 3, and is such because its not "listed in the wargear as a power weapon" or b) its a named power weapon on a named character, and as such you are not permitted to change it. Even in a counts as army, this would be the issue. If it was like Huron Blackheart, and just listed as a power weapon, you could. But this is a named power weapon on a unique ic.
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Post by: Gloomfang
I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.
I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.
I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.
Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!
And on and on and on. Rule of Cool has gone right out the window for now. Not worth even taking the army out for a spin now.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
I wish they filled the gap between things listed as power weapon and power weapons that have funny rules. They totally omitted things with power weapon as a rule.
This includes anything that is named and has the rule and no other rules. It has to be listed in the wargear as a power weapon to follow wysiwyg and it has to have rules unique to itself to be cut and dry ap3. Giant gap of anything with a name. Regardless of additional rules attached to it or if they make it unusual or not.
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Post by: CT GAMER
 Gloomfang wrote:I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.
I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.
I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.
Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!
Stop playing with people who are asshats?
Just saying...
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Post by: jbunny
 CT GAMER wrote: Gloomfang wrote:I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.
I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.
I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.
Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!
Stop playing with people who are asshats?
Just saying...
Ok so no more tournaments.
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Post by: CT GAMER
jbunny wrote: CT GAMER wrote: Gloomfang wrote:I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.
I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.
I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.
Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!
Stop playing with people who are asshats?
Just saying...
Ok so no more tournaments.
Tournaments are an exception because you have to follow whatever rules/guidelines they state as being used for the event as a condition for participating in said event, so they very much would be in there right to say everything must be WYSIWYG, etc.
Otherwise I see no reason to give the guy grief about his conversions. It would take him about 1 minute to explain his conversions and what they count as before we played, and Id have NO isse with them.
The problem is when asshats try to use the rules as a weapon...
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.
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Post by: Gloomfang
jbunny wrote:
Stop playing with people who are asshats?
Just saying...
Ok so no more tournaments.
They are fine for friendly play. It is the tournaments that I have issues. They were going to be my 1250pt army for some tournies. I was expecting the conversion factors to help with the painting rubric and they would be easy to transport and do a display board for them.
I have problems with my Nids at that low a point level. (It is me and not my bugs).
Still the point remains that I hear more arguements and see more people lose sportsman points from this stupid rule than any other rule.
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Post by: jbunny
CT gamer, I was just messing with ya. I completely agree that in friendly games it should not matter. Personally I always used Axes for my power weapons because i like the look of them. Now i either have to use them as Axes, remove them, or only play friends.
I prefer the last one myself. Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are fine for friendly play. It is the tournaments that I have issues. They were going to be my 1250pt army for some tournies. I was expecting the conversion factors to help with the painting rubric and they would be easy to transport and do a display board for them.
I have problems with my Nids at that low a point level. (It is me and not my bugs).
Still the point remains that I hear more arguements and see more people lose sportsman points from this stupid rule than any other rule.
WOW. Looks like I said that 
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Post by: dufus0001
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.
It does say it's unique, but given the rules for a "unique" weapon, it does NOT qualify as one. Same word used two different ways.
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Post by: blood lance
Gloomfang wrote:I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.
I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.
I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.
Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!
And on and on and on. Rule of Cool has gone right out the window for now. Not worth even taking the army out for a spin now.
That's not the rule... that's the people you play it seems to me. How is modelling for advantage equipping your model with an option in the codex. If the codex says models can take power weapons, and doesn't specify which, you can chose any three of them. Therefore you wanting to give them an axe isn't MFA. if this is peoples argument then modelling models with plasma pistols after you paid for them would be classed as MFA under their opinion...its just silly.
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Post by: Happyjew
kcwm wrote:It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there.
Good to know the name of the item tells all. So we now know that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons, Assault Cannons are assault weapons, Dark Eldar are Eldar, and Fire Dragons are dragons.
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Post by: dufus0001
THE SCYTHE OF RETRIBUTION IS A HAMMER!!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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Post by: Azrell
You cant really argue that dante has to be equipped with an power axe because the word "axe" only appears in the name of the weapon and in the rule/description in his forces entry. Being that no other weapon has that name or the rule/description "the axe mortalis" would mean that weapon is unique and therefore ap3 anyway.
To avoid confusion i just modeled my dante with a sword. If its supposed to be unique than its ap3 anyway and if its just a power weapon than you look to the model for its "type", and a sword is ap.3.
I suspect the sang guards weapons will eventually be FAQd to ap3 but if people want to give me axes im fine with it for now. Automatically Appended Next Post: dufus0001 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.
It does say it's unique, but given the rules for a "unique" weapon, it does NOT qualify as one. Same word used two different ways.
but what if the word unique was intentionally used by the person that wrote the codex... who happens to be in the big boy credits for the BRB as well.
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Post by: dufus0001
Azrell wrote:You cant really argue that dante has to be equipped with an power axe because the word "axe" only appears in the name of the weapon and in the rule/description in his forces entry. Being that no other weapon has that name or the rule/description "the axe mortalis" would mean that weapon is unique and therefore ap3 anyway.
To avoid confusion i just modeled my dante with a sword. If its supposed to be unique than its ap3 anyway and if its just a power weapon than you look to the model for its "type", and a sword is ap.3.
I suspect the sang guards weapons will eventually be FAQd to ap3 but if people want to give me axes im fine with it for now.
Again, it only has one USR. This does NOT make it a "unique" power weapon as per "unique" power weapon rules. The only way this axe is unique, is Danté carries it, called it that, and there are no others named the same in the 40k universe. That's it. This would apply to the Sanguinary Guard as well. If they are modeled with an axe, they have an axe, if they have a sword, then sword. Considering Glaive Encarmine are carried by more than one unit, and do not have unique rules, they are hardly "unique".
Azrell wrote:
but what if the word unique was intentionally used by the person that wrote the codex... who happens to be in the big boy credits for the BRB as well.
Then that person has the resources to clarify to the masses what his intentions are. He has not done so.
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Post by: Ghaz
Happyjew wrote:Good to know the name of the item tells all. So we now know that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons...
However it does tell us that it is a flamer, so your example both proves and disproves your point 
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Post by: Azreal13
Unique weapon =/= unique rules.
A weapon can be unique as in only one is allowed, but the definition of unique in the BRB applies to its rules not to its rarity.
As for this particular question, it's currently a grey area and can be successfully argued either way.
My personal opinion is why wouldn't the master of a primogenitor chapter have an entire armoury to choose from? He may traditionally wield an axe, but who's going to tell him no if he wants a change? It also makes sense that any weapon he does use is of the finest quality. I do understand others opinions, but you'd have no issue against me if he had a sword.
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Post by: dufus0001
 Ghaz wrote:Happyjew wrote:Good to know the name of the item tells all. So we now know that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons...
However it does tell us that it is a flamer, so your example both proves and disproves your point
Wow. Where do I begin with that?
Instead of making fun of you I'm just going to say that no one would debate that a heavy flamer is a flamer. Please know the focus of the topic at hand and not think you're clever by deliberately misinterpreting the obvious. A heavy flamer is an assault weapon according to the rules, not a "heavy weapon" as the name would state.
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Post by: Happyjew
Actually, one could argue before 6th ed it was not in fact a "Flamer", however, they added it to the "Flamer Weapons" so that part at least is no longer debatable.
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Post by: Halfpast_Yellow
Can my Cryptek's Eldritch Lances have the 'Lance' rule?
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:Azrell wrote:You cant really argue that dante has to be equipped with an power axe because the word "axe" only appears in the name of the weapon and in the rule/description in his forces entry. Being that no other weapon has that name or the rule/description "the axe mortalis" would mean that weapon is unique and therefore ap3 anyway.
To avoid confusion i just modeled my dante with a sword. If its supposed to be unique than its ap3 anyway and if its just a power weapon than you look to the model for its "type", and a sword is ap.3.
I suspect the sang guards weapons will eventually be FAQd to ap3 but if people want to give me axes im fine with it for now.
Again, it only has one USR. This does NOT make it a "unique" power weapon as per "unique" power weapon rules
In your interpretation... An interpretation which is not supported by any rules as there is no clear definition of what counts as a 'unique special rule' is. People have seemed to claim USRs are not unique special rules... but some claim any rule beyond power weapon is a unique rule. I see no clear line defined either way and this is where we have sketchy people trying to give special weapons all sorts of crazy weapon combos. No where have I seen anything win writing that defines "UNIQUE" as "anything but a USR".
Which is why we apparently need more FAQs.
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Post by: dufus0001
Can you just start adding USR's because it has it in the name? No, sir. If that's the case, my Death Company cause instant death. No one in their right mind would let that fly. To be honest, I don't see why they didn't make them the lance USR and up the points cost on it a little. Wouldn't really change much about it other than making it awesome. nkelsch wrote: In your interpretation... An interpretation which is not supported by any rules as there is no clear definition of what counts as a 'unique special rule' is. People have seemed to claim USRs are not unique special rules... but some claim any rule beyond power weapon is a unique rule. I see no clear line defined either way and this is where we have sketchy people trying to give special weapons all sorts of crazy weapon combos. No where have I seen anything in writing that defines "UNIQUE" as "anything but a USR". Which is why we apparently need more FAQs.
If a regular power weapon can have added USR's because of the model, then named weapons with just USR's fall under the same category. Can we just look at the wording for a second? P.61 BRB " Unusual Power Weapons: Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the addional rules and characteristics presented in the entry." I believe they call them Universal Special Rules for a reason. Things that are universal are not unique. Automatically Appended Next Post: And I completely agree, we need an FAQ and we need it yesterday.
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Post by: Ghaz
I see sarcasm (even with the icon) is lost on some people.
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Post by: dufus0001
My sarcasm detector only runs on inflection. It is very hard to hear it in text or hear the way you others want it to be heard in my head. Icons do not sarcasm, make.
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Post by: Azreal13
dufus0001 wrote:
Can we just look at the wording for a second? P.61 BRB "Unusual Power Weapons: Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the addional rules and characteristics presented in the entry."
I believe they call them Universal Special Rules for a reason. Things that are universal are not unique.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I completely agree, we need an FAQ and we need it yesterday.
While totally agree with the intent of this post, the term USR is a 5th edition term that hasn't made the jump. So while special, the rules are no longer defined as universal.
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Post by: dufus0001
Given this information I still stand by my post. Even though it doesn't say "universal" anymore, they are rules that are applied to many different units and are therefore, not unique rules.
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Post by: Praxiss
This seems like a similar arguement to when people wanted to play Lychguards "Hyperphase Swords" as power axes.
It says it's an axe...in the name. Surely it's an Axe.
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Post by: Happyjew
Striking Scorpions have "scorpion" in their name. Surely they are scorpions.
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Post by: Gloomfang
So you fall into the camp of people that say my custom Fleshtearers version of Dante with the massive chainsword is an illegal model and can not be used for play?
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Post by: lostinthewarp
It sounds like he is in the camp of if you put an agonizer on a chaos space marine and want to use it as a mace or lance, he wouldn't play with you. Or if your space wolves are pre-new models and you have them on whf wolves, he wouldn't play with you. Or if your ork looted wagon was a rhino, or if your voidraven was made of two razorwings, or if your renegade ig army was made of whf chaos marauders or skaven for looks, or any counts as army would be a no no for this camp.
So if you want to make a ft chaptermaster that uses the rules of Dante, I don't see why not. And after reading the rules about power weapons and...well almost all the rules, they have no rules on what you may or may not use. Heck, the only WYSIWYG that is in the book is for power weapons.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
dufus0001 wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.
It does say it's unique, but given the rules for a "unique" weapon, it does NOT qualify as one. Same word used two different ways.
Codex > BRB
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Post by: liturgies of blood
It sounds like you are putting words in someone's mouth there lostinthewarp.
I think saying this model counts as Dante is fine. HOWEVER, the axe mortalis is an axe. I wish to god that it was a unusual power weapon so I can field a dante leafblower but until that question is settled it counts as a power axe or an unusual power weapon.
If you clip off the axe and put a sword in it's place and now tell me it's dante but with a sword that is not cool. If it was a tournament you would so be TFG. In a friendly game, I would ask for a roll off but abusing counts as and the power weapon rules to get a character with a different weapon is taking the piss.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
I was overblowing it, just a bit to show that its ok to have fun with the hobby as well as have a playable army. I don't agree with the it has to stay an axe, seeing as if that was the case, they would or will errata it to say power axe. But I am willing to either roll off or fold to it. I have two of him, one with an axe, one with a sword. For just that reason. Non named pws tho, I would always give a pass on. Who's to say Huron Blackheart doesn't just grab the first pw from the spacehulk he is on before his assault on a world?
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Post by: Dozer Blades
I would not roll off for the status of the weapon. The codex makes it quite clear its a unique weapon.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
After looking at the codex and thinking. You can't change Dantes axe, but you can have your own character that uses Dantes rules so the ft army would be totally legal. Per creating your own chapter in the codex.
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Post by: Praxiss
Gloomfang wrote:
So you fall into the camp of people that say my custom Fleshtearers version of Dante with the massive chainsword is an illegal model and can not be used for play?
Not at all.
You can give your model a giant flower for all i care, as long as it sticks to the unit entry for the models your havign it coutn as.
Example - we play a game and i plonk a Chaos Lord model on the table and "this is my Counts as Abaddon, but instead of the weapons Abaddon normally has, this guy has an Ap1 relic blade, that's ok right?" - no, it's not. If it a count as Abaddon then it uses the rules for Abaddon, including the weapons.
So if your Fleshtearer guy with a massive chainsword is a counts-as Dante, then you have to user the rules for Dante, including the fact that the unit entry for Dante says he has an axe.
I would be on your side if it was something lilke, for example, Chaos terminators - the models all come with maces and axes , but heir entry just says "power weapon" - which the rulebook says are AP3. if you wanted to play WYSIWYG and give them the items and rules for maces, mauls etc then i would be happy with that.
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Post by: CT GAMER
 liturgies of blood wrote:I
If you clip off the axe and put a sword in it's place and now tell me it's dante but with a sword that is not cool. If it was a tournament you would so be TFG.
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Post by: Bishop99
 Praxiss wrote: Gloomfang wrote:
So you fall into the camp of people that say my custom Fleshtearers version of Dante with the massive chainsword is an illegal model and can not be used for play?
Not at all.
You can give your model a giant flower for all i care, as long as it sticks to the unit entry for the models your havign it coutn as.
Example - we play a game and i plonk a Chaos Lord model on the table and "this is my Counts as Abaddon, but instead of the weapons Abaddon normally has, this guy has an Ap1 relic blade, that's ok right?" - no, it's not. If it a count as Abaddon then it uses the rules for Abaddon, including the weapons.
So if your Fleshtearer guy with a massive chainsword is a counts-as Dante, then you have to user the rules for Dante, including the fact that the unit entry for Dante says he has an axe.
I would be on your side if it was something lilke, for example, Chaos terminators - the models all come with maces and axes , but heir entry just says "power weapon" - which the rulebook says are AP3. if you wanted to play WYSIWYG and give them the items and rules for maces, mauls etc then i would be happy with that.
Acctually the entry for Dante says he has a master crafted power weapon. it says this multiple time
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Post by: pdawg517
So I would be TFG even though my sword wielding Dante was made last edition when a PW was just a PW?
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Post by: Praxiss
Because last edition there was no difference between a power sword and a power axe - it made conversions a lot simpler.
If you model Dante with a sword rather than his Axe - that coudl be seen as modelling for advantage.
From now on kits are going to have to have different optiosn of power weapons available, and they will all need to be listed separatley in the units codex entry.
24207
Post by: jbunny
Exactly. It only counts as a power weapon. The book says you can use either an Ax, Sword, Maul. So you can model Dante with a sword to gain and it is legal.
The weapon is named an ax, but Name does not equal rules. See heavy Flamer, and Assault Cannon as proof.
Personally I say it is a unique power weapon, but that is besides the point of this topic.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
Bishop99 wrote:
Acctually the entry for Dante says he has a master crafted power weapon. it says this multiple time
And you look at the model to see which kind of power weapon he has... Just like Lychguard. Except if having a special rule makes it unique or not which is also undefined. So some will think he must have an axe, others will think it is an axe but the mastercrafted rule makes it a unique power weapon. others will say it is a NAMED weapon to mean it is a unique special weapon.
"doesn't say I can't" has never worked in a permissive ruleset. And there is no valid RAW to determine it one particular way or not.
Hence why GW needs to FAQ things... they often think it is painfully clear to the studio designers what they intended and they can't figure out why we don't understand and need a FAQ. Many times their INTENT (and FAQ result) is so far off what we all thought it was it is absurd. But that is how it is.
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Post by: Fragile
dufus0001 wrote:Can we just look at the wording for a second? P.61 BRB " Unusual Power Weapons: Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the addional rules and characteristics presented in the entry."
I believe they call them Universal Special Rules for a reason. Things that are universal are not unique.
Whether a USR is unique or not isnt the question. The question is "Do all power weapons have this USR?" If the answer is no, then that weapon with the USR is unique among power weapons. So in this case, "Are all power-weapons mastercrafted?" No. Then the Axe would be a UPW, since it has a rule that affects close combat that not all other Power weapons have.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
At what point does it say that Dante has an axe as a rule. It states he has a mc pw. At no point other than name does it have a RULE defining it as an axe. The rules for the named weapon are power weapon, see rule book & master crafted, se rule book.At no point is the name of the weapon defined.
The name of the weapon is fluff, not rules.
Fluff=/= rules and we all know this.
25703
Post by: juraigamer
You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.
Furthermore all this crying over it being an axe doesn't make sense, +1 strength and such means when he charges he should be str 6, and who cares if he goes last, he's got 2+ armor. Quit yer $itching.
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Post by: nkelsch
When it says it is master crafted. That is a special rule. UNQIUE is undefined int he rulebook and no ability to distinguish what counts as a Unique special rule or just a regular special rule for purposes of determining what makes a unique power weapon.
It is perfectly possible that USRs are not unique and +2 STR is unique, but that distinction or what counts as what simply doesn't exist in the rulebook.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
Unusual power weapons have unique cc rules unto themselves per pg 61, this is not.
Example of what would be is gorechild, diresword, agonizer, etc.
At no point is the axe part a rule tho.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
 pdawg517 wrote:So I would be TFG even though my sword wielding Dante was made last edition when a PW was just a PW?
No you wouldn't. Some people are trying to gimp BA... that is all it is.
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Post by: Gloomfang
 juraigamer wrote:You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.
Furthermore all this crying over it being an axe doesn't make sense, +1 strength and such means when he charges he should be str 6, and who cares if he goes last, he's got 2+ armor. Quit yer $itching.
And where is the Axe Mortalis spelled out other than it's name? Its name is fluff and can be changed as fluff is not rules. My FT counts as Dante (Cain) has a diffrent weapon modeled. I didn't even start with the Dante model as the base (he was a jump pack chaplin).
I personaly hope that they FAQ as a UPW as then it can look like whatever you want it to look like and I can play with him again. If it not then I have to WYSISYG and I guess it would have to be a power sword.
The reason I care is that if it has to be an axe then I can't use him in tournament play as he would not be WYSIWYG. That means the time, effort and money I put into the model (and my assualt squad I mentioned before) is just flushed down the drain becasue I can't play them in tournaments (and that was the whole reason I made this particular army).
I don't care if he hits last or hits first or powergaming the power weapon rules. I just want to play with my  toy army men.
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Post by: jbunny
juraigamer wrote:You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.
.
In the rules, not fluff, where is it spelled out that it is an ax? The rules says it is a Master Crafted Power Weapon.
If you look at the rules for Power Weapons, it says it can be an Ax, Sword, Maul,...
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Post by: nkelsch
jbunny wrote: juraigamer wrote:You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.
.
In the rules, not fluff, where is it spelled out that it is an ax? The rules says it is a Master Crafted Power Weapon.
If you look at the rules for Power Weapons, it says it can be an Ax, Sword, Maul,...
And because it is master crafted, it is a power weapon with a unique special rule which means it is a unique power weapon... Nothing defines what counts as a 'unique' special rule... so a power weapon with any special rule is a unique power weapon. Master Crafted is a special rule.
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Post by: Gloomfang
nkelsch wrote:
And because it is master crafted, it is a power weapon with a unique special rule which means it is a unique power weapon... Nothing defines what counts as a 'unique' special rule... so a power weapon with any special rule is a unique power weapon. Master Crafted is a special rule.
Not being snarky, honest question.
Would that mean that anyone that buys the Master Crafted power weapons out of a codex as a piece of wargear doesn't have to worry about what wepon type they are modeled with? That would make them all be UPW and it woudn't matter what the model looked like then.
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Post by: jbunny
I will not disagree with you Nkelsh. However, I do not wish to argue with others this point anymore. So now, I will concede that point and move on to this argument.
If they don't want it to be 'unique' - a term undefined, then they must admit it is a power weapon, and therefor can be changed.
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Post by: juraigamer
The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.
Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.
Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.
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Post by: nkelsch
Gloomfang wrote:nkelsch wrote:
And because it is master crafted, it is a power weapon with a unique special rule which means it is a unique power weapon... Nothing defines what counts as a 'unique' special rule... so a power weapon with any special rule is a unique power weapon. Master Crafted is a special rule.
Not being snarky, honest question.
Would that mean that anyone that buys the Master Crafted power weapons out of a codex as a piece of wargear doesn't have to worry about what wepon type they are modeled with? That would make them all be UPW and it woudn't matter what the model looked like then.
One interpretation, yes. All Mastercrafted Power weapons are by default 'unique' because it is a power weapon with a special rule and how 'unique' the rule is isn't defined.
Not saying it is right, just saying there is no way to show it is wrong. Which is why I recommend events FAQ it for their events and people discuss pre-game how they wish to play it.
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Post by: jbunny
juraigamer wrote:The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.
Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.
Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.
Just because you think it is better does not make it so.
Also GW encourages conversions. GW has determined that the different rules for a Power Sword, Power Ax, Power Maul, Power Lance are all equal, and so changing them out is allowed. If they are equal then you are not MFA.
If the Ax is so much better, then what is the problem with someone gimping their own unit?????
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Post by: kirsanth
The rules do not bother to explain what "special" means either, or even "rule" for that matter; regardless I have a hard time reading "Universal" rules as being "Unique"
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Post by: DeathReaper
 kirsanth wrote:The rules do not bother to explain what "special" means either, or even "rule" for that matter; regardless I have a hard time reading "Universal" rules as being "Unique"
Exactly. I do not read "Universal" rules as being "Unique", since more than one weapon can be Master Crafted. I view unique as something like Astorath the Grimm's "The Executioners Axe" which has a unique rule about always striking at Str 6 and making the enemy re-roll successful invuln saves. His "Axe" is truly a unique weapon, as there is no single weapon in the game that has those exact combined abilities.
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Post by: Azreal13
Changing Dantes weapon's not MFA as all the various types of power weapon are, at least in GWs eyes, balanced against one another (otherwise they would alter points values) what you gain in one area (striking at I) you lose in another (reduced AP and strength)
People need to get off the train of thought that certain types are better. They are not. All types are better under different circumstances and against different opponents.
Also can people please acknowledge that RAW a unique weapon is not an unusual PW by definition. A PW is deemed unique if its RULES are unique, not if the weapon itself is. The definition of what constitutes a unique rule is currently open to interpretation and cannot be answered without an FAQ.
Personally I believe that as it is currently written a fancy name is not enough to deem a weapon unique, nor, although it's counterintuitive, can it specify a weapon type. Neither is a centrally defined special rule. A PW is only unique if it has a game effect that is explained in it's entry and nowhere else.
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Post by: juraigamer
jbunny wrote: juraigamer wrote:The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.
Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.
Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.
Just because you think it is better does not make it so.
As stated, it's not what I "Think" but what I "Know"
There is no discussion, it's just *crying* I want to swing at int 5-6!
Mastercrafted doesn't make a weapon unusual, while it is a special rule it is also a universal rule. A special rule is "Always strikes at strength 6" or " Gains + d6 attacks"
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Post by: dufus0001
Yeah, I read it the first time you said it. While the codex does say it's unique (which is fluffy), it also says it's a master-crafted power weapon and as such, follows the power weapon rules because the master-crafted rule is not unique. So the codex says both. If master-crafted is a unique rule, so are unwieldy and concussive. That makes all power axes and mauls are unusual weapons and AP3.
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Post by: Crimson
At the moment you absolutely can change the weapon. It is just a power weapon. However, I'm pretty sure this will be FAQed away once they get around to it. Special characters have always had fixed gear.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
dufus0001 wrote:
Yeah, I read it the first time you said it. While the codex does say it's unique ( which is fluffy ), it also says it's a master-crafted power weapon and as such, follows the power weapon rules because the master-crafted rule is not unique.
So the codex says both.
If master-crafted is a unique rule, so are unwieldy and concussive. That makes all power axes and mauls are unusual weapons and AP3.
It is not fluff. It is a rule.
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Post by: jbunny
juraigamer wrote:jbunny wrote: juraigamer wrote:The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.
Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.
Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.
Just because you think it is better does not make it so.
As stated, it's not what I "Think" but what I "Know"
There is no discussion, it's just *crying* I want to swing at int 5-6!
Mastercrafted doesn't make a weapon unusual, while it is a special rule it is also a universal rule. A special rule is "Always strikes at strength 6" or " Gains + d6 attacks"
You seem to be the only one crying. Everyone else is having a discussion, and you are borderline name calling. I also like how you completely ignore everything else in my post. Now, I am not arguing that his weapon is a unique weapon. I am saying you are allowed to change from an ax to a sword.
But there are plenty of times when going first is better than +1 St and Int1. And there are just as many times when going last but at AP1 and +1St is better. hence why they are equal.
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Post by: nkelsch
 DeathReaper wrote: kirsanth wrote:The rules do not bother to explain what "special" means either, or even "rule" for that matter; regardless I have a hard time reading "Universal" rules as being "Unique"
Exactly.
I do not read "Universal" rules as being "Unique", since more than one weapon can be Master Crafted.
I view unique as something like Astorath the Grimm's "The Executioners Axe" which has a uniqu rule about always striking at Str 6 and making the enemy re-roll successful invuln saves.
His "Axe" is truly a unique weapon, as there is no single weapon in the game that has those exact combined abilities.
So what if there are other weapons who share abilities? Does that mean that weapon is no longer unique? Multiple different weapons have +2 Strength so does that mean any weapon with 2+ strength is not unique anymore? When you boil it down, we may find almost nothing counts as unique by that definition.
I feel that Unique = "any special rule that is not a USR" is a perfectly reasonable line to draw... the rulebook doesn't draw that line at the moment and requires a discussion, event FAQ or Rule Judge ruling for it to function until a GW FAQ exists.
Adn that doesn't necessarily solve if every power weapon is any power weapon because that also has no actual rule to support it, just implied choice based upon opponent's consent. So you may get a Powermaul sarge or an axe DCA... but many people may stop agreeing when static special characters are being customized against the stock model.
"it doesn't say I can't!" isn't a rule in a permissive ruleset. Having a special character model with an axe and a weapon called an axe saying you have the unwritten freedom to convert to give him a Maul is farther than some people can bend and it by no means makes them unreasonable because there is ZERO RAW at this point.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Unusual Power Weapon?
1. It's got a name. Not all power weapons are "Axe Mortalis".
2. The formatting of the Codex implies the rules are special rules. The Axe Mortalis rule is formatted just like other weapons that would be considered unique like Haeven's Teeth, Glaive Encarmine and Whirlwind of Gore.
3. The actual rule for it is "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
While true that "master crafted" is a USR and "power weapons" is a USR and these rules are common, not all master crafted weapons are power weapons and vice verse.
4. Generic weapons are listed in wargear. The AM has it's own entry on the page.
5. It's unique because no other weapon in the game has the "Axe Mortalis" rule. Axe Mortalis is the name of the weapon and the rule for it.
If you have the Codex in front of you it's pretty clear: S4 AP3 striking at dante's initiative with master crafted.
If that doesn't work at least he has Hit and Run
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Post by: dufus0001
Dozer Blades wrote:It is not fluff. It is a rule.
The name of the weapon: The Axe Mortalis. This is fluff. How it helps in game: It is a Master Crafted power weapon. This is a rule. Do power weapons normally come with Master Crafted? No. Is the Master Crafted rule shared by any other weapons? Yes. Does that make it a unique rule? No. If being Master Crafted is enough to be considered an unusual weapon, so is Two-Handed. Nemesor Dave wrote:Unusual Power Weapon? 1. It's got a name. Not all power weapons are "Axe Mortalis". 2. The formatting of the Codex implies the rules are special rules. The Axe Mortalis rule is formatted just like other weapons that would be considered unique like Haeven's Teeth, Glaive Encarmine and Whirlwind of Gore. 3. The actual rule for it is "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon." While true that "master crafted" is a USR and "power weapons" is a USR and these rules are common, not all master crafted weapons are power weapons and vice verse. 4. Generic weapons are listed in wargear. The AM has it's own entry on the page. 5. It's unique because no other weapon in the game has the "Axe Mortalis" rule. Axe Mortalis is the name of the weapon and the rule for it. If you have the Codex in front of you it's pretty clear: S4 AP3 striking at dante's initiative with master crafted. If that doesn't work at least he has Hit and Run
I am totally fine if it is an unusual power weapon, and follow such rules, but I have yet to be convinced or be shown any clear evidence (some have provided very very good but not good enough... yet. ) Glaive Encarmine cannot be unique. Both the Sanguinary Guard and The Sanguinor carry them. Being Master Crafted does nothing to change the wysiwyg of the model. Unique =/= Unusual. Let's all try to use the proper terminology as per the BRB. Someone please say something about whether or not concussive and unwieldy are unique rules or not.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
dufus0001 wrote:
I am totally fine if it is an unusual power weapon, and follow such rules, but I have yet to be convinced or be shown any clear evidence (some have provided very very good but not good enough... yet. )
Glaive Encarmine cannot be unique. Both the Sanguinary Guard and Mephiston carry them. Being Master Crafted does nothing to change the wysiwyg of the model.
Unique =/= Unusual. Let's all try to use the proper terminology as per the BRB.
Someone please say something about whether or not concussive and unwieldy are unique rules or not.
Ahh, so true. I hadn't though of the fact that the Glaive is given to more than 1 entry in the Codex. The problem is their using the word unique. Axe Mortalis I can maintain is unique and since the Glaive and others are written the same way with their own special rule, I'd say the RAI is to treat any of these ones with special rules sections in the Codex as "Unique".
However unique does not quite mean that. RAW the Glaive then becomes easy. It's not unique. But then again, I would have to know every other Codex inside and out to truly know for certain that "Axe Mortalis" is also unique.
Perhaps there is some Sisters of Battle unit that has a bunch of Axe Mortalises in them. I don't have the book so how would I know?
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Post by: Brother Sergeant Bob
The rule actually says that "it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."
I take that to mean no special rules besides being a power weapon. the Axe Mortalis does have a further special rule (u can say Master-crafted isnt unique, but theres no way it isnt special). so you cannot then go and look at it being a axe to decide what it is. neither is it unique according to some of you, so were stuck in a nowhere land with it, it definetaly needs to be dealt with in a FAQ.
personally i play it as ap 3 and strike at initiative 5, none of my opponents have had a problem with it.
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Post by: Happyjew
 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:The rule actually says that "it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."
I take that to mean no special rules besides being a power weapon. the Axe Mortalis does have a further special rule (u can say Master-crafted isnt unique, but theres no way it isnt special). so you cannot then go and look at it being a axe to decide what it is. neither is it unique according to some of you, so were stuck in a nowhere land with it, it definetaly needs to be dealt with in a FAQ.
personally i play it as ap 3 and strike at initiative 5, none of my opponents have had a problem with it.
Right, so we cannot use the "look at it" rule for PW (since it has a special rule), and we cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule, as it does not have one or more unique close combat rules.
For similar instances, Triskele (Eldar) and possibly Burnas (Orks).
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Post by: dufus0001
Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:The rule actually says that "it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."
So if the model has an axe, and the only special rule is that it's Two-Handed Power Weapon, it's AP3? I don't think so.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
 azreal13 wrote:Changing Dantes weapon's not MFA as all the various types of power weapon are, at least in GWs eyes, balanced against one another (otherwise they would alter points values) what you gain in one area (striking at I) you lose in another (reduced AP and strength)
People need to get off the train of thought that certain types are better. They are not. All types are better under different circumstances and against different opponents.
Also can people please acknowledge that RAW a unique weapon is not an unusual PW by definition. A PW is deemed unique if its RULES are unique, not if the weapon itself is. The definition of what constitutes a unique rule is currently open to interpretation and cannot be answered without an FAQ.
Personally I believe that as it is currently written a fancy name is not enough to deem a weapon unique, nor, although it's counterintuitive, can it specify a weapon type. Neither is a centrally defined special rule. A PW is only unique if it has a game effect that is explained in it's entry and nowhere else.
The weapons may be internally balanced but in certain units they offer greater advantage.
DC with lances for S7 on the charge for example. If Dante, one of the longest running characters in the Space marine characters list, is designed with an axe and you change the model to gain a different combat profile rather than for the look of the model you are MFA.
I think there is a very big difference between putting a lance on DC to get a great weapon in a high impact squad and putting a different weapon on a special character to get an advantage.
In fact why should you not put a lance on dante since they are all equal?
Put a lance on Calgar so you use that 1st turn and then 2nd turn go to the fists, gives you higher strength every time.
IMHO a defined special character should be played as per his GW model regardless of what you modeled it as. A HQ choice you make is whatever you want, same for a sergeant or any model that can take a power weapon just not special characters.
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Post by: Azreal13
liturgiesofblood wrote:
The weapons may be internally balanced but in certain units they offer greater advantage.
DC with lances for S7 on the charge for example. If Dante, one of the longest running characters in the Space marine characters list, is designed with an axe and you change the model to gain a different combat profile rather than for the look of the model you are MFA.
Put a lance on Calgar so you use that 1st turn and then 2nd turn go to the fists, gives you higher strength every time.
IMHO a defined special character should be played as per his GW model regardless of what you modeled it as. A HQ choice you make is whatever you want, same for a sergeant or any model that can take a power weapon just not special characters.
Dante was designed with an axe in second edition when initiative had little bearing on assault and melee weapons had their own strength values and a save modifier.
Also your argument about about advantages of certain weapons in units isn't really valid. Sure, lances are nice on death company when they charge, but they'll suck if they don't get the charge or break their opponent first round. Your point about Calgar is also flawed as his weapon is defined as a specific type with unique rules. The only comparable example I can think of is Lemartes, where the faq specifies the blood crosius is a maul. The fact that that was specified and Dante wasn't could be taken as evidence that Dante can have different types of weapon. (More likely it was simply overlooked imho)
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Why is it not valid, the point is that you can make DC even better in the first turn to ensure you break the enemy.....
Swords aren't much of a change as DC were never good against terminators while mauls improve their ability to drag down tough targets.
Different units make better use of the power weapon options in the same way as some units do better with certain weapons options.
Calgar has a sword which he can choose to use, if I model a lance it changes how he plays. Yes he has two power fists but that was not the important bit.
A crosius could be seen to be an axe in some cases as some have a flat profile, they clarified lemartes in line with other crosius. An axe is still an axe when it's called an axe.
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Post by: Azreal13
Not in 40k. Or Magic for that matter. It isn't an axe unless it's defined as an axe, and the name isn't sufficient to do that.
Your point about dc and lances isn't valid because it applies to all units carrying lances as what lances do is improve your strength when you charge, at the expense of reduced effectiveness at other times. All you're saying is a unit that's good when it charges is better when equipped with a weapon that makes you better when you charge.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
azreal13 wrote:Not in 40k. Or Magic for that matter. It isn't an axe unless it's defined as an axe, and the name isn't sufficient to do that.
Your point about dc and lances isn't valid because it applies to all units carrying lances as what lances do is improve your strength when you charge, at the expense of reduced effectiveness at other times. All you're saying is a unit that's good when it charges is better when equipped with a weapon that makes you better when you charge.
Yes and that means for that unit they are better.... following that logic certain characters would work better with a weapon other then what they are modeled with. Steam roller characters that pump out large numbers of attacks don't really need a second round of combat when they are used right. You make them better, better than they were designed to be by MFA.
When you change a model to give you a better game result that is MFA. Putting lances on DC isn't MFA as it is a valid option available to them, putting a lance on dante would give you a better attack profile on a high attack high initiative model. This changes how it behaves. If you allow Dante to get a sword then why not a lance. This is the gate you open when you allow this.
When I have an axe that is a power weapon called an axe, it is an axe. I fail to see how you can have an sword called the axe mortalis.
GW have modeled a special character, they defined that character in the codex and by modelling it. Why does dante get a sword now?
5873
Post by: kirsanth
No, in that circumstance they are better.
Every unit is better when it can use its weapons better.
The various types of power weapons are not, according to the rules, better than one another as they are costed identically.
Something that the rules tell us would not happen if your assertions were true.
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Post by: Azreal13
@Liturgies Of Blood.
Your opinion, not fact. In your example Dante would be effective against MEQ, but would struggle against MANz, as his attacks would just bounce, in this case the axe would be better.
I'll say it again. No one weapon is better. Individual weapon types are better in certain situations.
60664
Post by: dufus0001
liturgies of blood wrote:Yes and that means for that unit they are better.... following that logic certain characters would work better with a weapon other then what they are modeled with. Steam roller characters that pump out large numbers of attacks don't really need a second round of combat when they are used right. You make them better, better than they were designed to be by MFA. When you change a model to give you a better game result that is MFA. Putting lances on DC isn't MFA as it is a valid option available to them, putting a lance on dante would give you a better attack profile on a high attack high initiative model. This changes how it behaves. If you allow Dante to get a sword then why not a lance. This is the gate you open when you allow this. When I have an axe that is a power weapon called an axe, it is an axe. I fail to see how you can have an sword called the axe mortalis. GW have modeled a special character, they defined that character in the codex and by modelling it. Why does dante get a sword now?
Yes, I am aware of this and think that he may be equipped with a maul or lance as well. I just personally want a sword (Even more specifically, just don't want him to have an unwieldy weapon). I like the rules of the power sword and I can pick equipment based on its rules and it is not MFA, correct? Let's look at the Glaive Encarmine, which we all agree is a "named" weapon and not an unusual power weapon. This currently may be modeled as a sword, axe, lance, or maul at no extra cost and this is not MFA. The Axe Mortalis follows the same weapon profile, less being two handed, and as such can be modeled to use the rules provided in the BRB without being classified as MFA.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
Because there is a generic weapon that can be modelled as you want. A specific model, with a specific weapon called an axe is now schrodinger's power weapon?
I agree that sanguinary guard can have whatever, I don't see how this applies to special characters. I have got no justification, the rules say look at the model but most special characters have a GW model to go by.
The difference you seem to be missing is that while you can put wargear options on normal units and characters special characters by and large have no wargear options. Dante either has a power axe due to the model holding an axe and master crafterd not being important or he has an unusual power weapon, it cannot be anything else.
If you play Dante with a lance or maul then you have a counts as model. RAW counts as doesn't exist as a rule so you have to get your opponents permission to play that and he is within his rights to say no.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
Flipping back to the glaive encarmine for a second to point out a name of something is not a rule.
If you look up glaive, you will find
A European polearm weapon, consisting of a single-edged blade on the end of a pole. It is similar to a Japanese naginata or the Chinese guan dao.
It is affixed in a socket-shaft configuration similar to an axe, rather than having a tang like a sword.
It's a spear or a halberd (making it an axe), yet none of the models of said weapon are spears.
A name is a name, not a rule.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
lostinthewarp wrote:Flipping back to the glaive encarmine for a second to point out a name of something is not a rule.
If you look up glaive, you will find
A European polearm weapon, consisting of a single-edged blade on the end of a pole. It is similar to a Japanese naginata or the Chinese guan dao.
It is affixed in a socket-shaft configuration similar to an axe, rather than having a tang like a sword.
It's a spear or a halberd (making it an axe), yet none of the models of said weapon are spears.
A name is a name, not a rule.
While you did some good searching on wikipedia there, if you looked at the other uses for the word it now is also used to describe a sword. So a glaive is either a sword or an axe.... just like the models.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glaive
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Post by: Gloomfang
liturgies of blood wrote:If you play Dante with a lance or maul then you have a counts as model. RAW counts as doesn't exist as a rule so you have to get your opponents permission to play that and he is within his rights to say no.
RAW counts as is allowed (for marines and Tyranids at least) when it gives permission to create custom chapters or splinter fleets and use the rules for special characters that are Chapter/Fleet specific.
So my version of Dante that I use for my FT is legal per RAW as long as I use the points cost listed and as long as I accurately model his wargear. As Cain is definitly NOT Dante he can not be equiped with the specific weapon The Axe Mortalis (In name), but I must have it modeled with a weapon that accuratly depects his wargear. That war gear is a Master Crafted power weapon. My specific use of a massive chainsword is the only thing that could arguably be "counts as".
Now if I decided to do a Chaos army and wanted to use the rules for Kharn the Berzerker for a custom chapter (say that I have a 1K Sons army and wanted to create a 1K Sons version of Kharn) then I HAVE to show the model with an axe as Gorechild is specificly called out in the rules as being an axe.
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Post by: dufus0001
Gloomfang I acknowledge this but I'm not a fluff player. I play to paint, to do math and statistics, and the good hearty debate of philosophyhammer (such as this wonderful thread! ^_^)
I feel like that is somewhat of a loophole to do what you want and leave the rule muddy. Based as on RAW and what is defined as MFA, and that the Blood Crozious has been clarified as a power maul, Danté's power weapon can be changed.
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Post by: Happyjew
At least until the next faq comes out and gw possibly locks it in add an axe.
50012
Post by: Crimson
Happyjew wrote:At least until the next faq comes out and gw possibly locks it in add an axe.
Yeah, and this is the reason I'd recommend against chopping off the axes. I'm pretty sure they will chance this.
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Post by: Gloomfang
dufus0001 wrote:Gloomfang I acknowledge this but I'm not a fluff player. I play to paint, to do math and statistics, and the good hearty debate of philosophyhammer (such as this wonderful thread! ^_^)
I feel like that is somewhat of a loophole to do what you want and leave the rule muddy. Based as on RAW and what is defined as MFA, and that the Blood Crozious has been clarified as a power maul, Danté's power weapon can be changed.
I agree that the rule for what counts as a UPW is muddy.
And I also agree that Dante's weapon can be changed. I hope that it is FAQed to be Unique becasue then I don't have to remodel my mini (as form doesn't matter for a UPW).
As for the whole MFA issue, giving a model wargear that it is allowed to have is not MFA. Changing the base size or adjusting the profile to affect LOS are MFA.
60145
Post by: Lungpickle
yA AND YA KNOW WHATS UNIQUE ABOUT IT. iNITIATIVE 6
Just play Dante as Dante, and when your opponent complains and says something to the contrary just say he's rules lawyering for advantage.
Hes a unique dude with unique stats and stuff. Play him as codex dantes, advanced rules trump BRB.
End of discussion IMHO
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Post by: Salted Diamond
Everyone seems to be focusing on the "Unsual Power Weapons" section. But I have noticed that no one has quoted the Types of Power Weapons section.
Pg 61, 3rd paragraph states "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the rnodel to tell which type of power weapon it has
The Axe of Mortalis HAS futher speical rules. Special, not unique rules.
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Post by: Azreal13
This isn't news. As written at the moment a PW with special rules but not unique rules is neither a normal or unique PW. Hence the debate.
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Post by: dufus0001
No, that's coming from Danté. I agree his axe is unique but as per the rules it does not qualify as an unusual weapon.
Lungpickle wrote:
Just play Dante as Dante, and when your opponent complains and says something to the contrary just say he's rules lawyering for advantage.
That is MY job. I like to think I do it well.
Lungpickle wrote:Hes a unique dude with unique stats and stuff. Play him as codex dantes, advanced rules trump BRB.
End of discussion IMHO
Unique =/= Unusual. Codex Dantés does not exist. I am a realist and don't care much about the fluff of the game. It's cool and all, but if it were absent I wouldn't bat an eyelash. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Salted Diamond wrote:Everyone seems to be focusing on the "Unsual Power Weapons" section. But I have noticed that no one has quoted the Types of Power Weapons section.
Pg 61, 3rd paragraph states "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the rnodel to tell which type of power weapon it has
The Axe of Mortalis HAS futher speical rules. Special, not unique rules.
What about a Two-Handed Power Weapon with no "name," who's modeled with an axe? Is that AP 2 or 3?
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Post by: Fragile
I would go with Two Handed being a special rule and use UPW.
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Post by: Happyjew
What about "unwieldy" is that a special rule, forcing you to UPS?
50012
Post by: Crimson
I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.
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Post by: Fragile
 Crimson wrote:I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.
Actually you have a good point there.
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Post by: dufus0001
Crimson wrote:I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.
THIS! Exactly, a Two-Handed Power Axe cannot exist if you read it like that. ImHO, it should. Can we pay GW to put out an FAQ on this? lol
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote: Crimson wrote:I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.
THIS!
Exactly, a Two-Handed Power Axe cannot exist if you read it like that. ImHO, it should.
Can we pay GW to put out an FAQ on this? lol
No... A Weapon explicitly which is defined as a power axe or power maul or power sword can be all sorts of things and have extra special rules without being an unusual power weapon. Once a weapon has been defined as a Power Maul, it is no longer a power weapon and the unusual power weapon catch-all doesn't apply. Many FAQ entries limited units to only having a power sword or power maul.
Only undefined 'power weapons' that have special rules are going to force them to be unusual. A Two-handed Power Axe can exist. A power weapon with the additional special rule of Two-handed which happens to be an axe via visual representation cannot exist.
If you follow that interpretation... Hence why i would discuss with opponents, ask your TO and not rush out to remodel units until better FAQs exist.
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Post by: jbunny
Crimson wrote:I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.
Can you show me the page number where Universal Special Rules are?
I can only find Special rules, none of which are Universal.
Thanks
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Post by: DeathReaper
jbunny wrote: Crimson wrote:I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.
Can you show me the page number where Universal Special Rules are?
I can only find Special rules, none of which are Universal.
Thanks
They used to be called USR's
they are just called SR's in 6th ed.
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Post by: jbunny
DR - I know. My point is everyone keeps using the fact that they are "Universal" to say they are not unique. They are using old rules in a RAW discussion, and should not be allowed.
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Post by: lostinthewarp
So with the glaive, am I restricted to something with a blade? Seeing as the word is translated into sword but the use of the term is for any sharp pointy stick, be it axe, spear or sword?
Back to the "axe" at hand
The wysiwyg power weapon rule states that if it has no other special rules, use the chart. As such, seeing as they are not unique, but have a special rule, you are not required to use the chart.
They then go on to cover unique power weapons, but never cover power weapons with special rules. Making this gray area.
To set precedents on if they wanted it to be an axe, they would say so, gorechild as well as the man reaper have been erattaed to state this (tho not great examples seeing as they are unique)
Also, at no time in the rule book do they have modeling rules, as pointed out earlier, nor are there rules on requiring a special character to be the one that gw offers. They must be citadel models, seeing as the description of the game states that it is a game for them to be played with.
So, Dante is not required at any time in the rules to be specifically the Dante that gw offers.
Yes I used Wikipedia for the glaive. Seeing as I'm at work and couldn't pull out an encyclopedic britannica or anything.
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Post by: DeathReaper
jbunny wrote:DR - I know. My point is everyone keeps using the fact that they are "Universal" to say they are not unique. They are using old rules in a RAW discussion, and should not be allowed.
Well considering Master crafted is a special rule, but it is not unique means your point has no merit.
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Post by: jbunny
My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong.
Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules.
The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.
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Post by: DeathReaper
jbunny wrote:My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong. Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules. The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.
Yes there is a hole in the rules. They say special rules first and unique rules later, leaving weapons with non unique special rules in limbo. Or the reference to special rules, in context refers to unique rules. My thoughts on it: a unique weapon should be treated like a unique character (You only have one unique character, so the same should apply for Unique weapons).
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Post by: Happyjew
Of course one could argue that "special rules" refer to the rules found in hte rulebook under "Special Rules". If that is true then you are left with power weapons that have no special rules, no unique close combat rules, and do not look like any of the listed profile.
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Post by: cowmonaut
liturgies of blood wrote: kcwm wrote:It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.
If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.
Like the "axe" morki?
The original rules for the Axe Morkai states it can be used as either a Frost Blade or Power Fist. That wasn't an FAQ change, it always has said it counts as a Frost Blade. Frost Weapons (Blades/Axes) are not Power Weapons. They have their own rules.
The Axe Mortalis is listed as Master Crafted Power Weapon. Given this is a Special Character and not a configurable unit (like a Captain), I would argue you have to go off of what the official model has if one is available. I'd also argue you have to use the rules as written, and the weapon is listed as an Axe in its name. Barring any unusual rules for close combat attacks, which it distinctly lacks, its not unusual so would be Unwieldly and AP 2.
I still think this sucks since Dante is Initiative 6, but its not the only use for Initiative. Just one of the most important ones...
But I'm sorry, modifying a unique character to have different wargear than is described is MFA. Its rules lawyering to try to argue this Axe on this one character uses the rules for Swords without the FAQ backing you up, which makes you akin to TFG. So I think the OP is in denial about it being MFA...
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Post by: jbunny
cowmonaut wrote:..
But I'm sorry, modifying a unique character to have different wargear than is described is MFA. Its rules lawyering to try to argue this Axe on this one character uses the rules for Swords without the FAQ backing you up, which makes you akin to TFG. So I think the OP is in denial about it being MFA...
Or you are being think on that MFA means. What advantage are you getting by changing? Also GW has never said you have to use the correct model, or the model they say is Dante. They only say you must use a GW model, and the model must be WYSIWYG.
The name Ax is only used in it's fluff, and not it's rules. Unless you want to argue that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons because the weapons is listed as Heavy in it's name. The only war gear that is being changed is his Power Weapon. Power weapons can be either Swords,Axes, Mauls, or Lances. They are all Power Weapons, and so you get a choice. And you make that choice when you assemble the model.
There is also the Fact that GW did not FAQ his weapon as an AX, much like they FAQ'ed all Chaplin weapons as Mauls. That means they either intended it to be an unusual Power Weapon, or it is a Power Weapon and you get the choice.
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Post by: dufus0001
jbunny wrote:My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong. Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules. The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.
Again, by this reasoning a Two-Handed Power Axe cannot exist unless specified in the codex or FAQ. If it says "Two-Handed Power Weapon" in the entry, according to this logic, it would not matter what the wysiwyg of the model because the special rule of being Two-Handed automatically makes it unusual, AP3 and thus, no modeling for Two-Handed Power Axes. This is not MFA.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
jbunny wrote:My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong.
Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules.
The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.
It's true GW did not define Unique. For that we have the dictonary and the English Language. I firmly believe the intent as RAW is for Dante's Axe to be played as an Unusual Weapon since it has special rules. Unfortunately there's nothing inherently unique about being Master Crafted.
In any case, the Axe Mortalis fits into both categories so it's a bit blurry.
The Glaive
1. more than one character in an army can take one.
2. It has a special rule in the same format like the Axe Mortalis.
This one is completely mixed up. There is just no way to decide using only RAW.
A character with a 2+ armor 4+ invuln going last then SMASHING anything in it's path is crazy.
Master crafted so you get a rerolled miss. 3's to hit, no armor saves allowed against it. S6 lets dante one round lesser Characters all day long while laughing. It's the S3 at I6 that is meh.
edit: any idea why multiquote gets screwed up lately? arg!
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Post by: Dozer Blades
I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.
25703
Post by: juraigamer
 Dozer Blades wrote:I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.
And any tournament wouldn't. All "power weapons" need to stay the same all the time in that setting, you can play against a guy with dante and have no 2+ armor saves and him play is as ap 3, then another guy be running deathwing and have him switch to a power axe.
It's an axe, it looks like an axe, it swings like an axe, and it's called an axe. Anyone trying to prove otherwise is crazy.
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Post by: Camarodragon
juraigamer wrote: Dozer Blades wrote:I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.
It's an axe, it looks like an axe, it swings like an axe, and it's called an axe. Anyone trying to prove otherwise is crazy.
It looks like me and a whole bunch of other people must be crazy then...!!!! Otherwise this thread wouldn't be going on and on and on and on..............again........
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Post by: Happyjew
juraigamer wrote: Dozer Blades wrote:I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.
And any tournament wouldn't. All "power weapons" need to stay the same all the time in that setting, you can play against a guy with dante and have no 2+ armor saves and him play is as ap 3, then another guy be running deathwing and have him switch to a power axe.
It's an axe, it looks like an axe, it swings like an axe, and it's called an axe. Anyone trying to prove otherwise is crazy.
Unless of course it looks like a sword/mace/lance and swings like a sword/mace/lance.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
The fluff name of a weapon does not decide its rules.
Read this as an example of why:
Dante planted his foot against the twisted imitation of one of his brothers and forced him down to the ground, into the mire of blood and mud the once beautiful field had become.
"Who are you?" choked the fallen marine as blood trickled down his cheek.
"I am your executioner and this," Dante said, brandishing his gleaming sword flickering with destructive energy, "is my axe."
The blade fell. The choking of the marine ceased.
If someone were to be known as The Executioner then it would make sense that any weapon they used, regardless of its actual type, to be called their axe due to the axe being pretty much synonymous with an executioner.
Poetic license and all that.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Yeah cos Ilyn Payne always swings his axe when administering the kings justice. Apart from the time that never happened and it's always clearly stated to be a sword.
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Post by: Happyjew
liturgies of blood wrote:Yeah cos Ilyn Payne always swings his axe when administering the kings justice. Apart from the time that never happened and it's always clearly stated to be a sword.
I know when Ned dispenses the kings justice, he uses a two-handed sword (at least in the fluff)
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Post by: nkelsch
Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.
Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.
Option 2: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. All special rules from the first clause result in applying the rules for unusual power weapons.
Result 2: Both Dante's Axe and Glaive encarmine are treated as AP3 Str - Unusual power weapons.
Option 3: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine only come with two visual representations, an axe and a sword.
Result 3: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe or Sword.
Option 4: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine on the otherhand may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due to the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 4: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.
Option 5: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 5: Dante's Axe is and Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.
Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?
43386
Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
nkelsch wrote:Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.
Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.
Option 2: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. All special rules from the first clause result in applying the rules for unusual power weapons.
Result 2: Both Dante's Axe and Glaive encarmine are treated as AP3 Str - Unusual power weapons.
Option 3: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine only come with two visual representations, an axe and a sword.
Result 3: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe or Sword.
Option 4: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine on the otherhand may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due to the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 4: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.
Option 5: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 5: Dante's Axe is and Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.
Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?
One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.
The rest of your options contain a leap in logic not supported by any rules as well. Specifically the concept that in the absence of a unique rule, you are somehow allowed permission to default to the rule for determining weapon type and rules by looking at what is on the model. There is no rules support at all for that opinion.
What everyone seem to be missing from this entire argument is that neither Dante or Sanguinary guard are armed with master-crafted power weapons, they are armed with an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmines respectively. Per the rules quoted,
If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has
Dante's wargear says he has the Axe of Mortalis, not a power weapon. Sanguinary Guard's wargear entry says they have Glaive Encarmines, not power weapons. Now this is completely different when you refer to someone like Ulrik the Slayer or DCA whose wargear entries specifically say, "power weapon". So the first part of the rule quoted has absolutely zero relevance to how the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines work or are determined. Now addressing the second rule quoted,
If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you that they are master-crafted power weapons. Note, this is NOT the same as saying that Dante and Sanguinary Guard have master-crafted power weapons because the wargear entries for Dante and Sanguinary Guard are specific in that they have an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine, not master-crafted power weapons. The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you how to use them, in this case, as master-crafted power weapons. Basically you need to recognize the following and the distinction between the two;
Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon.
Dante is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, whose rules are that it is a master-crafted power weapon.
So, the only way to play it is that both Dante and Sanguinary Guard are equipped with unique weapons, that are played as power weapons, who have a unique rule in that allows them to reroll one missed hit in close combat. This fulfills the second rule quoted practically verbatim. You can try and argue that master-crafted is not a unique "enough" rule, but that way only leads to breaking the game and you have zero rules support to make that argument, only your opinion on what is unique and what is not unique "enough".
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Post by: DeathReaper
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:nkelsch wrote:Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment. Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.
Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.
Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?
One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.
Unique is not defined in the BRB so we fall back on the normal English definition of unique. But they do say that something that is unique (Like named characters and vindicare assassins) we may only take one of them in our list. "The special rule is NOT unique" because a different weapon can have exactly the same rules as Dante's weapon. That is why it is not unique.
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Post by: nkelsch
DeathReaper wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:nkelsch wrote:Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.
Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.
Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?
One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.
Unique is not defined in the BRB so we fall back on the normal English definition of unique. But they do say that something that is unique (Like named characters and vindicare assassins) we may only take one of them in our list.
"The special rule is NOT unique" because a different weapon can have exactly the same rules as Dante's weapon.
That is why it is not unique.
Which leaves result 1... If you have 'special rules' you are not allowed to look at the model to choose the result. But when you get to the second rule, the special rule HAS to be unique and if you apply a specific interpretation of UNIQUE... this leaves a set of weapons who HAVE special rules but those special rules are not UNIQUE.
Which means you either have no permission to apply any rule where the power weapon does nothing... or you assume one of the two options... look at model, or unique power weapon.
The issue is due to a HYWPI poll is there is nO RAW right now. So it is all either RAI or how you think GW will FAQ it.
I can add a 6th option for the concept of 'unique weapons' but the result is the same as option number two, just a different form of logic applied that it is a Unique power weapon for being a named unique weapon not because it has a special rule and the lack of UNIQUE being defined means all special rules apply. Same result as option 2 but different justification.
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Post by: DeathReaper
HIWPI:
Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe")
Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...
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Post by: nkelsch
DeathReaper wrote:HIWPI:
Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe")
Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...
If you had an 'unwieldy power weapon' then yes... it could be considered AP3.
Notice if you have a 'Power weapon' with no rules and it looks like an axe... it does not become an 'unwieldy power weapon' it becomes a power axe due to the first part of the rule. Once defined as a power axe by not having any special rules... doesn't matter if it is unwieldy.
This is the problem. The only way you have the choice to look at the weapon is by having " no further special rules". As long as you have a special rule, unique or not... you may never look at the model to tell the type. If you define 'UNIQUE' to mean anything but a USR then there is a hole where weapons never get to be assigned a type.
This is where you have to assume that weapons which do not fit any of the options are assumed to be 'caught' by the unique power weapons, or default back to 'look at the model'. Both are unsupported and take a leap of intent.
So what is the default? You can't argue that master crafted is not a special rule, you can say it is unique... so it is neither look at the weapon or unusual PW... Which of the two clauses becomes the default then for the undefined weapons with non-unique special rules?
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Post by: Happyjew
DeathReaper wrote:HIWPI:
Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe")
Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...
And here is where we differ. In my opinion, the special rules and unique rules the rulebook refers to, are any special rules/abilities not found in the special rules section. So a mastercrafted or two-handed weapon would not qualify, but one that grants +1 Strength would.
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Post by: dufus0001
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion. The rest of your options contain a leap in logic not supported by any rules as well. Specifically the concept that in the absence of a unique rule, you are somehow allowed permission to default to the rule for determining weapon type and rules by looking at what is on the model. There is no rules support at all for that opinion. What everyone seem to be missing from this entire argument is that neither Dante or Sanguinary guard are armed with master-crafted power weapons, they are armed with an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmines respectively. Per the rules quoted, If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has
Dante's wargear says he has the Axe of Mortalis, not a power weapon. Sanguinary Guard's wargear entry says they have Glaive Encarmines, not power weapons. Now this is completely different when you refer to someone like Ulrik the Slayer or DCA whose wargear entries specifically say, "power weapon". So the first part of the rule quoted has absolutely zero relevance to how the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines work or are determined. Now addressing the second rule quoted, If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you that they are master-crafted power weapons. Note, this is NOT the same as saying that Dante and Sanguinary Guard have master-crafted power weapons because the wargear entries for Dante and Sanguinary Guard are specific in that they have an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine, not master-crafted power weapons. The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you how to use them, in this case, as master-crafted power weapons. Basically you need to recognize the following and the distinction between the two; Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon. Dante is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, whose rules are that it is a master-crafted power weapon. So, the only way to play it is that both Dante and Sanguinary Guard are equipped with unique weapons, that are played as power weapons, who have a unique rule in that allows them to reroll one missed hit in close combat. This fulfills the second rule quoted practically verbatim. You can try and argue that master-crafted is not a unique "enough" rule, but that way only leads to breaking the game and you have zero rules support to make that argument, only your opinion on what is unique and what is not unique "enough".
Fluff =/= Rules. Yes, Danté is equipped with a weapon called "The Axe Mortalis," this is fluff. The Axe Mortalis is a Master Crafted Power Weapon, this is a rule/game mechanic. I do not play games with fluff nor is it used for me to determine how the game "should" be played. Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal. Also, The Sanguinor carries a Glaive Encarmine, same as the Sanguinary Guard. Can this weapon be changed? I think so. If you're equipped with a Heavy Flamer, it must be a heavy weapon I guess. Assault Cannons are now assault weapons. Labels determine everything!!! I also just got the funny feeling that when they finally do FAQ this, we are going to see a LOT of unusual power weapons.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
DeathReaper wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:nkelsch wrote:Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.
Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.
Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?
One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.
Unique is not defined in the BRB so we fall back on the normal English definition of unique. But they do say that something that is unique (Like named characters and vindicare assassins) we may only take one of them in our list.
"The special rule is NOT unique" because a different weapon can have exactly the same rules as Dante's weapon.
That is why it is not unique.
No, that is your opinion that you default to the english language definition, an opinion unsupported by the rules. But since you insist, how many Axe of Mortalis can you take? You have zero rules standing to default to the basic english language much less compare it to unique unit restrictions.
Remember, Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon. He is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, that uses the rules for a master-crafted power weapon.
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Post by: 4oursword
jbunny wrote:Exactly. It only counts as a power weapon. The book says you can use either an Ax, Sword, Maul. So you can model Dante with a sword to gain and it is legal.
The weapon is named an ax, but Name does not equal rules. See heavy Flamer, and Assault Cannon as proof.
This SO many times. The edition change ruins armies, so I'm more than happy to back up anyone who wants to give Dante a Maul Mortalis or Sword Mortalis. Don't see how this argument's still raging.
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.
Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.
The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.
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Post by: Happyjew
nkelsch wrote:dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.
Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.
The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.
Right and since it does not have a unique close combat rule, we cannot use the S(User) AP3 as it is not an unusual Power Weapon.
My way may or may not be what GW intended, however, as far as I can tell, breaks the fewest rules.
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Post by: nkelsch
Happyjew wrote:
My way may or may not be what GW intended, however, as far as I can tell, breaks the fewest rules.
We can't use any rule actually.
And since UNIQUE is undefined and ambiguous while the clause on 'further special rules' is painfully clear... if we Know one Clause is a 100% NO and the other is a wishy washy unconfirmed No.
Defaulting to the result of the 100% confirmed No over the wishy washy NO doesn't break less rules in my opinion, especially since nothing allows you to default to the first rule after you fail the second rule and the rules are applied in a specific order. (actually, regardless of order, a Master-Crafted Power weapon can never be a YES for the first rule so it continues to never be allowed to be applied in any definition of UNIQUE)
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Post by: dufus0001
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Remember, Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon. He is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, that uses the rules for a master-crafted power weapon.
Danté is not armed with a MC PW, he is armed with a MC PW: "The Axe Mortalis"
Do you see how this is contradictory?
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Post by: Dozer Blades
 A Town Called Malus wrote:The fluff name of a weapon does not decide its rules.
Read this as an example of why:
Dante planted his foot against the twisted imitation of one of his brothers and forced him down to the ground, into the mire of blood and mud the once beautiful field had become.
"Who are you?" choked the fallen marine as blood trickled down his cheek.
"I am your executioner and this," Dante said, brandishing his gleaming sword flickering with destructive energy, "is my axe."
The blade fell. The choking of the marine ceased.
If someone were to be known as The Executioner then it would make sense that any weapon they used, regardless of its actual type, to be called their axe due to the axe being pretty much synonymous with an executioner.
Poetic license and all that.
I am sorry but what exactly does this have to do with any actual rules?
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Post by: dufus0001
nkelsch wrote:dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.
Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.
The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.
I believe you missed my target completely. It is not possible to explain why Sanguinary guard can only carry axes or swords. You may model them with any of the 4 power weapon choices.
The Sanguinor also carries the SAME WEAPON. Unique character with absolute non-unique gear. If you can change the model of the Glaive Encarmine of the Sanguinary Guard, the same can be done for the same weapon of another unit. If you can modify the Sanguinor's weapon because he has a non-unusual power weapon, the same can be done for Danté's non-unusual power weapon. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I just want to restate these principles for everyone:
1. Fluff =/= Rules
2. Unique =/= Unusual
3. Name of weapon does not determine how it functions. (see Heavy Flamer)
Do we all agree on those?
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:nkelsch wrote:dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.
Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.
The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.
I believe you missed my target completely. It is not possible to explain why Sanguinary guard can only carry axes or swords. You may model them with any of the 4 power weapon choices.
The Sanguinor also carries the SAME WEAPON. Unique character with absolute non-unique gear. If you can change the model of the Glaive Encarmine of the Sanguinary Guard, the same can be done for the same weapon of another unit. If you can modify the Sanguinor's weapon because he has a non-unusual power weapon, the same can be done for Danté's non-unusual power weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I just want to restate these principles for everyone:
1. Fluff =/= Rules
2. Unique =/= Unusual
3. Name of weapon does not determine how it functions. (see Heavy Flamer)
Do we all agree on those?
You can model it however you want... but I have actually quote rules where the type of model only comes into effect when the power weapon has "no further special rules".
Being master crafted is a special rule... and it is on the power weapon. That is undeniable.
So if you are not given permission to look at the model to determine the type... how do you look at the model to determine the type when you are explicitly told you are not allowed to because the weapon has a special rule?
Are you not actually reading the rules? I am not actually referencing Fluff, Unique or Weapon names...
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?
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Post by: dufus0001
nkelsch wrote:Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?
Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User). Now I'm verging on fluff here but hear me out; just because you hold an axe with two hands means it strikes faster ( Ini) but with less force ( AP)? How is being Two-Handed unusual?
Thank god there's no bastard sword in 40k. A hand-and-a-half sword would just make the game implode.
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Post by: Happyjew
dufus0001 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?
Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).
And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.
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Post by: dufus0001
Happyjew wrote:dufus0001 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?
Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).
And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.
I mean if you follow that logic. I do not agree that master crafted or two handed makes it unusual. Or any "Special Rule" starting on pg 32.
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?
Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User). Now I'm verging on fluff here but hear me out; just because you hold an axe with two hands means it strikes faster ( Ini) but with less force ( AP)? How is being Two-Handed unusual?
Thank god there's no bastard sword in 40k. A hand-and-a-half sword would just make the game implode.
Actually, it is not impossible to have a two-handed power axe... Once a power weapon is defined as a type, there is no need to use the rules for determining types. There are weapons where they are explicitly defined as a 'Power axe' or 'Power maul'. If those power weapons have "further special rules" then you already have the type defined so there is no need to even bother with either of these two rules.
So nothing about 2-handed Power Axes breaks these rules for unspecified power weapons. Only Two-handed power weapons modeled like an axe which are two different things. Also, just because someone is using 2 hands to hold it, doesn't mean it is two-handed unless specified. And by the current rules Any 2 handed power axes are two handed power axes. Two handed power weapons are unique power weapons.
By your definition, All weapons look at the model regardless of special rules and then apply the special rules to the custom power weapon type. You have to ignore the rule to get your result as the only time you may look at the model is if a weapon has no further special rules. If Two-Handed and Master-Crafted are not special rules... nothing is.
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Post by: Happyjew
Sorry, misunderstood you there.
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Post by: nkelsch
Happyjew wrote:dufus0001 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?
Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).
And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.
But we also cannot use 'look at the model' to determine either... There is a gaping hole in the ruleset for Power weapons WITH special rules which are not UNIQUE.
It only works currently for Plain power weapons or Power Weapons with UNIQUE special rules.
With no rules for Power weapons WITH special rules which are not UNIQUE. Either the game breaks or we assume one of the two 'options' apply. Which is the DEFAULT for PW with special rules? defaulting to the visual type, or defaulting to the catch all unusual?
This is not defined by RAW which is the problem. Automatically Appended Next Post: dufus0001 wrote:Happyjew wrote:dufus0001 wrote:nkelsch wrote:Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?
Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).
And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.
I mean if you follow that logic. I do not agree that master crafted or two handed makes it unusual. Or any "Special Rule" starting on pg 32.
But do you deny they are special rules? You can deny they are UNIQUE but you cannot deny they are 'further special rules' which means there is no permission to 'look at the model'
So how do you look at the model to determine the type without making up a house rule or breaking the game?
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Post by: dufus0001
Read my effing post. I said if the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon." According to your logic, you cannot model to change the type of power weapon as it already has a special rule. I am not arguing if the entry says two handed power axe because that is CLEARLY defined.
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:Read my effing post. I said if the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon." According to your logic, you cannot model to change the type of power weapon as it already has a special rule. I am not arguing if the entry says two handed power axe because that is CLEARLY defined.
How do you look at the model when having a special rule prevents you from having permission to do so?
Are you saying that a model with Special rules which are not UNIQUE default to looking at the model? No rule gives such permission but is a valid RAI position.
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Post by: Happyjew
nkelsch wrote:dufus0001 wrote:Read my effing post. I said if the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon." According to your logic, you cannot model to change the type of power weapon as it already has a special rule. I am not arguing if the entry says two handed power axe because that is CLEARLY defined.
How do you look at the model when having a special rule prevents you from having permission to do so?
Are you saying that a model with Special rules which are not UNIQUE default to looking at the model? No rule gives such permission but is a valid RAI position.
That is exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't mesh with the RAW, however, if we go by RAW the only power weapons we can use are ones that have absolutely no other special rules, and ones in which actually have one or more unique close combat rules.
Of course then you have ranged weapons that are power weapons in close combat (does this count as a special rule?) and don't fall into any of the four categories.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Happyjew wrote: DeathReaper wrote:HIWPI: Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe") Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...
And here is where we differ. In my opinion, the special rules and unique rules the rulebook refers to, are any special rules/abilities not found in the special rules section. So a mastercrafted or two-handed weapon would not qualify, but one that grants +1 Strength would.
I agree with that, not sure how we differ, it seems like we are saying the same thing. and Special is equated to unique, so if it has unique special rules it is unusual.
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Post by: Happyjew
Your claim is that the only weapons that are unique are ones that it is only possible to have 1 of in an army, such as the Titansword (there is no way to have more than 1 Titansword in your army, normally).
By my definition, the Executioner (see C:Eldar) would qualify for the unusual power weapon, as although you can have more than 1 in your army, it has a special rule not listed under "Special Rules" in the BRB.
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Post by: sfshilo
Crimson wrote:At the moment you absolutely can change the weapon. It is just a power weapon. However, I'm pretty sure this will be FAQed away once they get around to it. Special characters have always had fixed gear.
There are quite a few that can be customized. The guard command specials can get all kinds of gear. SOME characters can even have different armour!
I would say that because the official ga model has an axe I would question or raise an eyebrow to it but would probably let it slide.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
dufus0001 wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Remember, Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon. He is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, that uses the rules for a master-crafted power weapon.
Danté is not armed with a MC PW, he is armed with a MC PW: "The Axe Mortalis"
Do you see how this is contradictory?
How about you actually check Dante's army list entry. It does not say, MC PW: The Axe of Mortalis. It only says, "Axe of Mortalis. Once you check his unit entry you see that the rules for the Axe of Mortalis are that is is a MC PW. That is the why the first rule quoted does not apply to the Axe of Mortalis.
Now when you look at the second rule quoted, it does apply to the Axe of Mortalis becausethe rules dictate that it is a MC PW. It is a power weapon that allows a reroll to one missed hit in close combat. You can unsuccessfully put your opinion forth that MC is not unique enough, but that is not what the rule states is required. The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon that can reroll one missed hit in close combat. That rule is unique to that power weapon, ie, the Axe of Mortalis in close combat.
I can play the being obtuse game if that is the route that you want to go along. A weapon with +2 strength in close combat is not unique because there are plenty of weapons that add a set value of strength in close combat. Or how about that a poisoned weapon that wounds on +2 is not unique because there are plenty of poisoned weapons that wound on a set value.
The only choices in this debate is to either be obstuse or accept that the Axe of Mortalis being able to reroll one hit in close combat is a unique rule for that power weapon hence it is ap3, user str/ ini.
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Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
Wow there is a lot of in this thread. Lets look at FACTS.
Fact # 1 - Blood Angels Codex, page 53. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon"
Fact # 2 - BRB allows POWER WEAPONS to be modeled as a SWORD, an AXE or a MAUL or SPEAR. Each with slightly different rules. ALL ARE EQUAL FOR POINTS COST AND BALANCED.
Fact # 3 - EITHER Dante's weapon is in fact a power weapon(which i believe) and then can be modled as whatever the owner wants OR Dante's weapon is Unique (which I dont believe it is)
Dantes axe has a SPECIAL rule, not a UNIQUE rule. Master crafted is listed in the SPECIAL rules section... I WOULD consider Astoraths Axe as UNIQUE, not Dante's.
OK so his axe is not UNIQUE, it is still a POWER WEAPON and such can be modeled according to the rules laid out in the 6th ED BRB.
There is no rule in the BRB stating that a weapon has to follow its name. You cannot imply that the name has any effect on the weapon, there is no rule and no precedent for this assumption (you know what you say about assumptions). Dante could call the weapon anything he chooses.
To all you "thats modeling for advantage" people.... stop whining, Modeling for advantage is modeling your scout sentinal in a squating position. Modeling according to the rule book is fair game.... you dont have to like or agree with it.
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Post by: nkelsch
 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Wow there is a lot of in this thread. Lets look at FACTS.
Fact # 1 - Blood Angels Codex, page 53. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon"
Fact # 2 - BRB allows POWER WEAPONS to be modeled as a SWORD, an AXE or a MAUL or SPEAR. Each with slightly different rules. ALL ARE EQUAL FOR POINTS COST AND BALANCED.
That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. There is no explicit permission to choose one of 4 profiles and no permission to model custom options... We assume we are allowed to but it is not actually 'allowed' in the rulebook.
Fact # 3 - EITHER Dante's weapon is in fact a power weapon(which i believe) and then can be modled as whatever the owner wants OR Dante's weapon is Unique (which I dont believe it is)
That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. It says look at the model if it has no further special rules. Does it have a special rule? Is master Crafted a special rule? It is listed under special rules in the rulebook. If a Power Weapon has a special rule, then you skip the rule allowing you to 'look at the model to determine the type.'
Dantes axe has a SPECIAL rule, not a UNIQUE rule. Master crafted is listed in the SPECIAL rules section... I WOULD consider Astoraths Axe as UNIQUE, not Dante's.
OK so his axe is not UNIQUE, it is still a POWER WEAPON and such can be modeled according to the rules laid out in the 6th ED BRB.
That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. To get the ability to 'look at the weapon' the power weapon must have 'no further special rules'. Not 'no further UNIQUE special rules'. The power weapon has a special rule so you do not get the ability to look at the model regardless if it is a unique special rule or not. Not being unique either as a weapon or as a special rule doesn't give you permission to look at the model.
There is no rule in the BRB stating that a weapon has to follow its name. You cannot imply that the name has any effect on the weapon, there is no rule and no precedent for this assumption (you know what you say about assumptions). Dante could call the weapon anything he chooses.
That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that and there is precident with Lychguard Hyperface swords.
To all you "thats modeling for advantage" people.... stop whining, Modeling for advantage is modeling your scout sentinel in a squating position. Modeling according to the rule book is fair game.... you dont have to like or agree with it.
That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. Nothing gives you permission to squat sentinels or do basically whatever you want. Nothing you have said actually is supported by a rule in the 6th edition rulebook. Most of what you have quoted is based upon unspoken gamer convention which changes from event to event and player to player.
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Post by: Azreal13
nkelsch. Your argument has merit. But your condescending tone does not.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
azreal13 wrote:nkelsch. Your argument has merit. But your condescending tone does not.
Well the person he was responding to was supposedly stating "facts". Nk just chose to start each of his responses with a real fact,
"That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that."
The tone was just fine to what he was responding.
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Post by: Azreal13
You seriously think starting every paragraph with "that's nice" is perfectly acceptable and in no way patronising?
It was done deliberately to generate a tone or elicit a response. If I picked up on it then others may and so it is at the very least ill considered.
As for the post responded to, while some of the wording may have been off or not 100% accurate, the broad strokes were broadly what others in this thread are arguing, just because somebody isn't exactly right but the general gist is obvious there's no need to single it out like that. It's just point scoring and pedantic.
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Post by: redkommando
So what happens to Custom Chapters using Dante as lord XYZ, but in 5th the actual weapon didn't matter so XYZ was modelled with a Sword. Where does that leave him now??
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Post by: dufus0001
Nklesch, please address the issue of whether or not you may model for a Two-Handed Power Axe, given that the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon" and what its rules would be. Automatically Appended Next Post:  redkommando wrote:So what happens to Custom Chapters using Dante as lord XYZ, but in 5th the actual weapon didn't matter so XYZ was modelled with a Sword. Where does that leave him now??
Untouched I would think. He's not technically Danté, and his weapon could have been "The Sword Mortalis" from the start for all the people out there who love labels.
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:Nklesch, please address the issue of whether or not you may model for a Two-Handed Power Axe, given that the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon" and what its rules would be.
I have said this clearly about 6 times, but I will try to explain how the rules work again:
It has a "further special rule" so you may not look at the model to see what type it is ever.
So you have two options:
*Unique is undefined, so all special rules from Clause 1 count and it is an Unusual special weapon because it was intended as a "catch all" rule
or
*Two-Handed does not meet the the requirements of being unique... so the rules for Unusual special weapons are not applied. The game breaks, the power weapon meets no criteria and has no effects.
What cannot happen is for it to default back to 'look at the model' because the only permission to do so requires no "further special rules" and it cannot be argued MC or 2-handed is *NOT* a special rule... where it can be argued the ambiguous UNIQUE part is being met. So of the two options we are left with, I go with the "catch all" rule as it requires an ambiguous application of Unique opposed to making up house rules like "look at the model" as the default state of power weapons is.
I do believe they intended 'unusual power weapons' to be a catch all until they could explicitly define what they wanted people to have and eventuall 'look at the model' and 'unique' will become obsolete rules to help with edition transition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
redkommando wrote:So what happens to Custom Chapters using Dante as lord XYZ, but in 5th the actual weapon didn't matter so XYZ was modelled with a Sword. Where does that leave him now??
Untouched I would think. He's not technically Danté, and his weapon could have been "The Sword Mortalis" from the start for all the people out there who love labels.
Well the ability to 'counts as' SCs is not supported by rules and is supported by unspoken social convention, usually with you apply rules as if the conversion was the original model in all circumstances... Changing his axe would be seen as some as the same as giving Ghazghkull a 60mm base or making a Special character twice as small to gain the ability to hide LOS. When you boil it down, nothing gives you permission to modify the model or 'counts as' without opponent consent and the rules don't allow you to 'choose' any of the 4 power weapon types, only to look at the model.
So for your dante 'counts as' with a Sword Mortalis to be game legal you need opponent agreement, or TO approval in a tourney and there are no rules to support your position. I fully expect you to find opponents who would see it as MFA and they wouldn't be wrong as whenever there are no RAW or Defined rules as power weapons are... people have every right to have differing opinions.
But this is all academic as Dante either has a Unusual Power weapon or a useless board with a nail in it. He never has the ability to have 'an axe' because he never gets to 'look at the model' to determine. It will take a FAQ update to make his AXE and AXE.
Huron on the otherhand...
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Post by: Overlord Zerrtin
WAIT so if i have a striking scorpion not only does it have to be a scorpion but if it has a bitting blade does it have to chomp on my oppenets models i dunno i feel i would be MFA if they didnt..
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Post by: DeathReaper
The only weapons that are unusual are:
"Unusual Power Weapons
Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry." (61)
If it does not have unique rules it is not a unusual power weapon.
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Post by: Happyjew
And there within lies the problem. A mastercrafted power weapon has a special rule, but not a unique close combat rule, and thus falls into neither category.
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Post by: nkelsch
DeathReaper wrote:The only weapons that are unusual are:
"Unusual Power Weapons
Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry." (61)
If it does not have unique rules it is not a unusual power weapon.
First of all, UNIQUE is not defined as a game term so we really don't know if it is a UNIQUE special rule...
and same page:
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
So Axe Mortalis has a special rule which means it is not an axe, sword, maul or lance.
So it is a board with a nail in it because it is given no effects as it doesn't meet any of the requirements of any of the rules. Due to having a special rule, you may never 'look at the model'.
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Post by: Happyjew
EXACTLY!! I'd say approx. 95% of all power weapons are not unusable since they do not fit in either category.
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Post by: nkelsch
Happyjew wrote:EXACTLY!! I'd say approx. 95% of all power weapons are not unusable since they do not fit in either category.
And of the two categories... one is rigid and unmistakably clear and one is wishywashy and posed as a 'catch all' clause to the other rule.
Either they need to add 'Unique' to the first clause, and define Unique to mean anything but USRs, Or they need to define Unique to mean any special rule or remove Unique.
I feel everything is Unique until otherwise defined in erratta as of the two sides of the rule... it is the only one with wiggle room. Assuming you can look at the model can never work under any interpretation and requires you to make up rules.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Unique is well defined in the Engilsh language. we should use that definition, as the BRB does not define it.
The BRB does not define a lot of words, but we still know what they mean.
However it is clear that unusual weapons have unique rules.
If a rule is not unique it does not fall into this category, and either:
1) we assume Special means unique in the power weapon entry.
or
2) The game breaks and we can not use those weapons because they do nothing.
I am inclined to play it as #1 as it is does not bring the game to a screeching halt.
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Post by: nkelsch
DeathReaper wrote:Unique is well defined in the Engilsh language. we should use that definition, as the BRB does not define it.
The BRB does not define a lot of words, but we still know what they mean.
However it is clear that unusual weapons have unique rules.
If a rule is not unique it does not fall into this category, and either:
1) we assume Special means unique in the power weapon entry.
or
2) The game breaks and we can not use those weapons because they do nothing.
I am inclined to play it as #1 as it is does not bring the game to a screeching halt.
Yes, but you can also play it as Unusual special weapons being a catch all which works just fine... You are hung up on UNIQUE as it furthers your agenda and you are totally ignoring the part which says "further special rules" which is clear as crystal as we do know 100% what is a special rule is... and Master-crafted is a special rule which is even called a special rule.
So to overturn a clause which says special rule because you are applying an undefined version of UNIQUE to the rulebook and then assuming the first rule meant to say Unique requires changing of rules to work against RAW.
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
You can never argue you have permission to 'look at the model' to determine type because the weapon does have a 'further special rule'.
To claim that this clause is referring to UNIQUE rules because it doesn't say it is unique and a rule after this one says UNIQUE , and that you are applying an ambiguous definition of unique because we really have no clear ability to know which CC rules are unique even with your oxford dictionary definition breaks way to many rules and makes way to many assumptions.
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Post by: dufus0001
It also says unique close combat rules. Master Crafted and Two-Handed are not specific to close combat.
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Post by: DeathReaper
nkelsch wrote:Yes, but you can also play it as Unusual special weapons being a catch all which works just fine... You are hung up on UNIQUE as it furthers your agenda and you are totally ignoring the part which says "further special rules" which is clear as crystal as we do know 100% what is a special rule is... and Master-crafted is a special rule which is even called a special rule.
1) I have no agenda, I read the rules and make the call, I have no bias either way.
2) playing weapons with special rules as unique is not an option, as Master Crafted is, by no ones definition, unique to Dante's Sword.
3) the RAW is that Power weapons with non-unique special rules are not covered by the BRB, so we have to kind of make up rules anyway. It seems like unusual power weapons halve to have unique rules (Such as Asteroth's Axe) to be unusual power weapons, so power weapons with non-unique rules do not fall into this category.
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Post by: nkelsch
DeathReaper wrote:nkelsch wrote:Yes, but you can also play it as Unusual special weapons being a catch all which works just fine... You are hung up on UNIQUE as it furthers your agenda and you are totally ignoring the part which says "further special rules" which is clear as crystal as we do know 100% what is a special rule is... and Master-crafted is a special rule which is even called a special rule.
1) I have no agenda, I read the rules and make the call, I have no bias either way.
2) playing weapons with special rules as unique is not an option, as Master Crafted is, by no ones definition, unique to Dante's Sword.
3) the RAW is that Power weapons with non-unique special rules are not covered by the BRB, so we have to kind of make up rules anyway. It seems like unusual power weapons halve to have unique rules (Such as Asteroth's Axe) to be unusual power weapons, so power weapons with non-unique rules do not fall into this category.
1)Your definition of UNIQUE is not defined within the ruleset and UNIQUE = anything but BRB Special Rules also doesn't follow the dictionary definition either and is a RAI arbitrary line.
2) Almost No 'special rules' will ever be unique because many weapons share types of effects which are not BRB 'special rules' which means using the dictionary definition to apply rules is just as ambiguous and hard to define and label as drawing an arbitrary line that all non- USRs are unique.
3)The RAW is that power weapons with special rules unique or not, may never under any circumstances 'look at the model' to determine the type of power weapon. The only way you may 'look at the weapon' is for power weapons with *NO* special rules of any type. A Master Crafted Power Weapon does not fall into this catergory.
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Post by: DeathReaper
There are a lot of words in the BRB that are not defined within the ruleset.
Something that is unique is just that, one of a kind, not duplicated etc.
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Post by: nkelsch
DeathReaper wrote:There are a lot of words in the BRB that are not defined within the ruleset.
Something that is unique is just that, one of a kind, not duplicated etc.
But there are weapon effects which are had by multiple weapons... Like +2str
Basically almost no special rules are unique. What we get is a definition of:
All brb special rules are not unique, and about 50%of the special rule effects are not unique, and no clear definition what actually is unique or which exists on multiple weapons.
Which means your definition of unique breaks the game as it makes almost all the power weapons unable to be unique... But if they have special rules you may never look at the weapon. That part is undeniable as you may never look at the model to determine the type if you have ANY special rule.
Please explicitly define what kind of special rules become unique? It can't be done even by quoting dictionary definitions. All BRB special rules not being Unique is by no means exhausted by the dictionary definition,and such an interpretation would need every single special rule defined if it is considered unique or not which is not supported by the rules.
The rules work fine with a liberal catch all version of unique... And it breaks if you apply your definition... And then to make your definition work, you have to add a house rule not supported by the rules to allow you to 'look at the model'.
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Post by: dufus0001
All BRB special rules aren't unique but 50% special rule effects are not unique? ...What? What exactly do you mean by special rule effects and how are they different from special rules?
How exactly does most power weapons not being unusual or having the ability to model for a specific power weapon even if it has a USR going break the game? (They are they same thing) Consider the FACT that they are all balanced, otherwise they would have different point costs.
You cannot quote the dictionary for 40k rules. Explicitly define what kind of special rules become unique? Ok:
"Blood Reaver: Blood Reaver is a two-handed weapon. Hits from Blood Reaver are resolved at Strength 8 and have the Rending special rule."
The section in bold is a unique rule. Two-Handed and Rending are special rules but not unique. Is there another weapon with all three of these rules together? No? Sounds unique to me.
Want another?
"The Executioner's Axe: The Executioner's Axe is a two-handed power weapon that strikes at strength 6. Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the Executioner's Axe must be re-rolled."
There is not another weapon out there like this. Unique.
Look at The Sanguinor's Glaive Encarmine: Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapon. Is there anything unique about it? Hardly, not only are there other Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapons, there are other units that use the same weapon. Therefore it is not unusual or unique.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
"Axe Mortalis" is a unique special rule "Axe Mortalis" is the name of the special rule. The further rules for the Axe Mortalis is the "Axe Mortalis rule" . You'll find the additional rules for the "Axe Mortalis" under Dantes entry in the Codex.
Axe Mortalis fits under Unusual.
(these are facts)
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:
Look at The Sanguinor's Glaive Encarmine: Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapon. Is there anything unique about it? Hardly, not only are there other Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapons, there are other units that use the same weapon. Therefore it is not unusual or unique.
But it is a special rule... and if you have a special rule on the power weapon you may NEVER look at the model to determine the type.
And your definition of what counts as UNIQUE is hardly a RAW one... just a possible interpretation as no two people will come to the same conclusion, especially of the examples like +2 Strength which is a common special rule for weapons but not a BRB special rule.
Let's say your definition was RAW and was agreed upon by everyone... You may still not overturn the very clear clause of 'further special rules' which is the only way to gain permission to look at the model to determine the type. *ANY* special rule regardless of being unique prevents you from looking at the model to determine the type. You can't just make up a definition for UNIQUE and claim RAW then blatantly disregard the first rule and look at the model because you feel like it.
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Post by: dufus0001
nkelsch, you have yet to use the word "unusual" as per how it's the rule for this is worded. I have said before unique is not unusual. It can be unique till the cows come home, still doesn't make it unusual.
I really like in your last paragraph how you say "Alright, we all agree, let's give yours a shot...and you STILL can't do it!" Very fair, very fair.
You have failed to tell me why a master crafted weapon is unique and therefore should qualify as unusual. Consider that there are MANY MANY MANY master crafted power weapons out there making master crafted weapons, not unique.
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:nkelsch, you have yet to use the word "unusual" as per how it's the rule for this is worded. I have said before unique is not unusual. It can be unique till the cows come home, still doesn't make it unusual.
I really like in your last paragraph how you say "Alright, we all agree, let's give yours a shot...and you STILL can't do it!" Very fair, very fair.
You have failed to tell me why a master crafted weapon is unique and therefore should qualify as unusual. Consider that there are MANY MANY MANY master crafted power weapons out there making master crafted weapons, not unique.
You have failed to tell me why a power weapon with a special rule is allowed to look at the model to determine the type when the rule explicitly says it is not allowed to. Consider that Master Crafted is explicitly called a special rule, how do you claim it is not a special rule and totally do the 100% opposite and look at the model without any permission to do so?
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
Your definition of UNIQUE is not at all supported by any rule or game terms... 5 different people can have 5 different interpretations on which rules and effects count and which ones don't but all 5 of those people are forced 100% to agree all those rules, unique or not are 'special rules' and therefor you may not look at the model to determine the type under any circumstances.
How are you avoiding that the first rule you apply simply requires special rules not unique special rules?
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Post by: dufus0001
First of all, calm down. Breathe. No reason to get an ulcer because of this game...
No further special rules means to me if it has rules that are not covered in the special rules section. Special rules are not unique. I do not believe that an unusual weapon is one that contains rules only from the special rule section.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to know why you like the restriction on these weapons as your stance on the subject would suggest.
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Post by: rigeld2
dufus0001 wrote:]
I want to know why you like the restriction on these weapons as your stance on the subject would suggest.
He is probably arguing objectively instead of subjectively - ie what the rules say, not what he likes or dislikes.
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Post by: dufus0001
I have not been shy to admit I have an agenda on this one, albeit a small one. I just want Danté to go off at ini 6.
I would love for Danté's weapon to be unusual, then I don't have to change my model. That is still not the way I read it though.
I do not like the restriction because choosing a weapon can be a strategical part of the game. The more I can apply my own tactics, the more I enjoy the game. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Nemesor Dave wrote:"Axe Mortalis" is a unique special rule "Axe Mortalis" is the name of the special rule. The further rules for the Axe Mortalis is the "Axe Mortalis rule" . You'll find the additional rules for the "Axe Mortalis" under Dantes entry in the Codex.
Axe Mortalis fits under Unusual.
(these are facts)
Wasn't going to say anything at first but...
Fact is: His weapon is called "The Axe Mortalis." NOWHERE is "The Axe Mortalis" a RULE. The RULE it has is Master Crafted Power Weapon.
Where in the warp did you pull this out of?
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
I have been in pretty much every single one of these threads but it was not until this one that I finally felt I understood how the writers wrote these rules so we do not reach a game breaking moment.
1. Pg61 Types of Power Weapons:
If a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:......
.
Now look at Ulrik the Slayer from the SW codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has a power weapon, that has no further special rules. So we are ordered to look at the model to tell which type of power weapon he is equipped with.
Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.
2. Pg 61 Unusual Power Weapons
If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
Now if we look to the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis we see that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Notice the difference between the above, "power weapon as a wargear entry" in the first quoted rule and "power weapon as a rules entry" for the Axe of Mortalis because that is the key difference between the two of them.
So the first rule does not apply in the slightest to the Axe of Mortalis, because Commander Dante's (the model) wagear does not say he has a power weapon, his wargear entry says he has the Axe of Mortalis.
This is where the second rule kicks in because the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis tell you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, thus telling you that the Axe of Mortalis, a power weapon, has its own (the Axe of Mortalis') unique close combat rule of rerolling one missed hit in close combat.
This resolves the game breaking point we get to where we say that the Axe of Mortalis is obviously not a power weapon with no additional special rules, but now what? In addition is clarifies an additional argument that keeps being made about purchasing the upgrade to master-craft a weapon would somehow makes it unique, which it doesn't. That can be saved for another thread however as it would derail this topic.
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Post by: Happyjew
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.
Now look at a Space Marine Chaplain. They have a Crozius. According to your argument, you can not use the listed rule. Granted, however, that it was FAQ's to be a Power Maul...
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Post by: dufus0001
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I have been in pretty much every single one of these threads but it was not until this one that I finally felt I understood how the writers wrote these rules so we do not reach a game breaking moment. 1. Pg61 Types of Power Weapons: If a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:......
. Now look at Ulrik the Slayer from the SW codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has a power weapon, that has no further special rules. So we are ordered to look at the model to tell which type of power weapon he is equipped with. Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with. 2. Pg 61 Unusual Power Weapons If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
Now if we look to the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis we see that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Notice the difference between the above, "power weapon as a wargear entry" in the first quoted rule and "power weapon as a rules entry" for the Axe of Mortalis because that is the key difference between the two of them. So the first rule does not apply in the slightest to the Axe of Mortalis, because Commander Dante's (the model) wagear does not say he has a power weapon, his wargear entry says he has the Axe of Mortalis. This is where the second rule kicks in because the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis tell you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, thus telling you that the Axe of Mortalis, a power weapon, has its own (the Axe of Mortalis') unique close combat rule of rerolling one missed hit in close combat. This resolves the game breaking point we get to where we say that the Axe of Mortalis is obviously not a power weapon with no additional special rules, but now what? In addition is clarifies an additional argument that keeps being made about purchasing the upgrade to master-craft a weapon would somehow makes it unique, which it doesn't. That can be saved for another thread however as it would derail this topic.
Except that Master Crafted is NOT a Close Combat Rule. Read it again. Here I'll make it easy for you: "Weapon with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon." This applies to SHOOTING ATTACKS as well. Being able to model what type of power weapon you want, even if it has a million non-unique special rules, is NOT going to break the game... Explain that one to me.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
dufus0001 wrote:
Except that Master Crafted is NOT a Close Combat Rule. Read it again. Here I'll make it easy for you: "Weapon with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon." This applies to SHOOTING ATTACKS as well.
Being able to model what type of power weapon you want, even if it has a million non-unique special rules, is NOT going to break the game... Explain that one to me.
You completely misread his post. He was saying that the rule for Dantes weapon is "The Axe Mortalis", not Master Crafted or Power Weapon. These USRs are the two parts of the rule "The Axe Mortalis".
So can anyone else take a weapon with the rule "The Axe Mortalis"? If not then it is a Unique rule and therefore is S:user AP3.
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Post by: dufus0001
dufus0001 wrote:His weapon is called "The Axe Mortalis." NOWHERE is "The Axe Mortalis" a RULE. The RULE it has is Master Crafted Power Weapon
Automatically Appended Next Post: Power Weapon is not a USR by ANY means. Automatically Appended Next Post: A Town Called Malus wrote: So can anyone else take a weapon with the rule "The Axe Mortalis"? If not then it is a Unique rule and therefore is S:user AP3.
Can anyone take a weapon with the same RULE SET as "The Axe Mortalis?" You bet your fething arse!
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
Happyjew wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.
Now look at a Space Marine Chaplain. They have a Crozius. According to your argument, you can not use the listed rule. Granted, however, that it was FAQ's to be a Power Maul...
Which actually supports my point because they had to FAQ the Space Marine Chaplain Crozius to be a power maul or else it fell into that same game breaking hole.
dufus0001 wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I have been in pretty much every single one of these threads but it was not until this one that I finally felt I understood how the writers wrote these rules so we do not reach a game breaking moment.
1. Pg61 Types of Power Weapons:
If a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:......
.
Now look at Ulrik the Slayer from the SW codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has a power weapon, that has no further special rules. So we are ordered to look at the model to tell which type of power weapon he is equipped with.
Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.
2. Pg 61 Unusual Power Weapons
If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
Now if we look to the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis we see that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Notice the difference between the above, "power weapon as a wargear entry" in the first quoted rule and "power weapon as a rules entry" for the Axe of Mortalis because that is the key difference between the two of them.
So the first rule does not apply in the slightest to the Axe of Mortalis, because Commander Dante's (the model) wagear does not say he has a power weapon, his wargear entry says he has the Axe of Mortalis.
This is where the second rule kicks in because the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis tell you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, thus telling you that the Axe of Mortalis, a power weapon, has its own (the Axe of Mortalis') unique close combat rule of rerolling one missed hit in close combat.
This resolves the game breaking point we get to where we say that the Axe of Mortalis is obviously not a power weapon with no additional special rules, but now what? In addition is clarifies an additional argument that keeps being made about purchasing the upgrade to master-craft a weapon would somehow makes it unique, which it doesn't. That can be saved for another thread however as it would derail this topic.
Except that Master Crafted is NOT a Close Combat Rule. Read it again. Here I'll make it easy for you: "Weapon with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon." This applies to SHOOTING ATTACKS as well.
Being able to model what type of power weapon you want, even if it has a million non-unique special rules, is NOT going to break the game... Explain that one to me.
As has been mentioned you are missing the point.
The Axe of Mortalis (Dante's wargear) has it's own unique close combat rules (a master-crafted power weapon) which allows it to reroll one missed hit in close combat. The wording of the second rule is not asking you to make a check of any and all weapons in the galaxy for uniqueness, just if that specific weapon has its OWN unique close combat rules.
I check my RAW arguments against if they allow the rules to mesh properly within the wording of the rule. In this case, what I have presented solves the game breaking issue created by the scenario that people are putting forward that the Axe of Mortalis is too special to not be identified by what is on the model, but not unique enough to be an unusual weapon.
Axe of Mortalis is AP3, user str/ init per the RAW argument I have presented.
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Post by: chewielight
Dang this has gone on for way to long. Good thing the C:BA tells you that all weapons that are written out and named are unique.
Codex>brb after all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since there is no rule for unique that is why can only go by something that is a rule. Unless you are told something is unique (like NFW) or in the case of C:BA just saying.
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Post by: juraigamer
Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"
I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)
Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.
Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.
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Post by: Pyrian
"Unique" is not required; simply having any special rule at all prevents the weapon from gaining one of the other categories. "Unique" only kicks in when you try to apply the unusual power weapon rules.
So, if you have a non-unique power weapon with a special rule, it falls through a crack in the rules and gets no AP or other bonuses at all. 
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Post by: dufus0001
Tyr, please go reread Master Crafted and tell me why that only applies to close combat.
What I'm saying is the rule of Master Crafted is not unique, I am happy to admit that "The Axe Mortalis" does indeed have special rules, but these are not "further" special rules because they are covered in the special rule section, nor are they specific to close combat.
Btw, I called GW about this... I REALLY did not like their answer... If anyone cares to hear it then I'll share but there's no need for this to turn ugly.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
juraigamer wrote:Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"
I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)
Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.
Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.
You do not understand the rules at all.
If you buy a power weapon, the wargear entry is a power weapon, period. The weapon type and rules are established by looking at what the model is equipped at that point. If you choose to master-craft it, you are master-crafting that weapon type and rules established when you bought that power weapon.
Dante's wargear entry is the Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say power weapon, it specifically says Axe of Mortalis so therefore its type and rules are never determined by what it looks like. Never.
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Post by: nkelsch
rigeld2 wrote:dufus0001 wrote:]
I want to know why you like the restriction on these weapons as your stance on the subject would suggest.
He is probably arguing objectively instead of subjectively - ie what the rules say, not what he likes or dislikes.
I play orks, I have no weapons impacted by these rules. I also play orks which means it almost never makes any difference which version of a power weapon you have because they all pretty much deny me armor saves and kill my guys.
The assumption that 'further special rules' instantly discounts all BRB special rules is a new RAI...
As soon as people can admit there is a game-breaking hole, the sooner their RAI can be discussed reasonably. When people are still trying to claim RAW allows their version of the rules, I can't take them seriously anymore. Admitting the RAW never allows you to look at the model when it has any special rule and most weapons then break is the first step to deciding the what the RAI should be.
FYI: Crozarius and Hyperphase swords being explicitly turned into a maul and sword shows GW doesn't give a piss about balance and intends to go down the path of cinematic models and what is available to them. When they electronically update codexes and get around to FAQing, I feel they will totally limit options on many units not because of balance, but simply because of the GW universe and how the models look. But feel free to smash your models with a hammer and rebuild them with potentially illegal weapon options I would wait a month and go paint a Stormtalon or something.
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Post by: dufus0001
But I don't think you realize your way of defining it is not universal. Yes, it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
dufus0001 wrote:Tyr, please go reread Master Crafted and tell me why that only applies to close combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I called GW about this... I REALLY did not like their answer... If anyone cares to hear it then I'll share but there's no need for this to turn ugly.
I never once did say that it only applies to close combat. However the rules entry we are talking about is talking about a master-crafted power weapon and thus we are talking about the ability to reroll one missed hit in close combat.
The part you keep stumbling over is not understanding that the second rule is talking about a unique rule in close combat not in the grand scheme of the Warhammer 40k universe, just that the wargear entry, in this case the Axe of Mortalis, has its OWN unique rule in close combat.
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Post by: dufus0001
nkelsch wrote:As soon as people can admit there is a game-breaking hole
This is NOT going to break the game! >.<
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
dufus0001 wrote:But I don't think you realize your way of defining it is not universal. Yes, it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.
Really? What is the wargear entry for Sanguinary Guard in the BA codex? Here is a hint, it ISN'T two-handed master-crafted power weapon.
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Post by: dufus0001
Read the thing about assaulting on your opponent's turn because your vehicle blew up and had an assault ramp. THAT will break the game!
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Post by: kirsanth
dufus0001 wrote:it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.
It does.
The "Glaive Encarmine" is a rule unique to a Glaive Encarmine.
No other weapon has this unique rule.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
kirsanth wrote:dufus0001 wrote:it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.
It does.
The "Glaive Encarmine" is a rule unique to a Glaive Encarmine.
No other weapon has this unique rule.
The best summary I have yet to read in this thread.
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Post by: nkelsch
dufus0001 wrote:Read the thing about assaulting on your opponent's turn because your vehicle blew up and had an assault ramp. THAT will break the game!
Well technically the game works just fine with that one, it just unbalances the game drastically against transports, to a point most people realize it isn't intended to work that way. So they discuss pre-game and decide on a house rule or event FAQ. Most Tourney FAQs I have seen have overturned the RAW for the transports blowing up issue.
I feel like an event may choose either USR exempt and allowed to "look at model" or "Unusual=Catchall" as they are both RAI which take ignoring an aspect of the rules and are consistent and easy to enforce. Both fine choices... neither rooted in RAW tho As long as everyone at the event is applying the rules equally then it is fine. If you intend to make use of weapons which may be impacted, then ask your TO and make your case.
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Post by: dufus0001
The name of the weapon is not the rule. Heavy Flamers must be heavy then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW said it's a power AXE, goes off ini 1 and gives +1 str.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
dufus0001 wrote:The name of the weapon is not the rule. Heavy Flamers must be heavy then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW said it's a power AXE, goes off ini 1 and gives +1 str.
Noone cares what GW customer service says, especially in this forum as per the tenets of this forum.
The name of the weapon IS the wargear entry, not "master-crafted power weapon" which you continue to ignore. The fact that the Axe of Mortalis (wargear entry) is able to reroll one missed power weapon hit in close combat (rules entry) is a close combat rule unique to the Axe of Mortalis.
Seriously Dufus, you have not put together a valid argument for your argument that isn't a mess of RAI wishful think with not only zero RAW support, but in fact goes blatantly against the RAW. If you want to continue to just want to make up rules, just preface your posts with how you would play it instead of trying to actually convince people that you have a RAW standing for your wishful thinking.
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Post by: chewielight
juraigamer wrote:Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"
I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)
Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.
Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.
That listing states what it states. We can do RAW or RAI but you need to choose one or the other and not just to suit your needs. The fact is thatwe can only use what the rules give us. Your choosing to ignore one set of rules to weakly attempt to force another definition that doesn't fit.
Its been stated way to many times that keeps being purposefully ignored. Power weapons are in only four categories and are detailed that they must not have special rules. If they don't have a special rule attached then we are directed to look at them in order to determine one of the four types. Since Dante's axe has a special rule "master crafted" we can not look at it to determine what kind of power weapon it is. The logical fallacy is that your attempting to pigeon hole "unique close combat rules" as something either one of a kind or not seen before and needed to be written out. When by any number of definitions have a unique close combat rule would fall under the realm of special rules given in the brb. I won't bore you with definitions from either dictionary options but please look as it makes it clear.
Special rules give a person,thing, or item an unique ability(yes unique also means unusual and not just one of a kind) that makes said person p,place,or thing unique amount those items. A predator is a tank but a Baal predator is a fast tank which makes it unique amoung predators. Master crafted,poison,etc makes those items unique when compared to others of their type. Yes you can purchase MC and it would make it str +ap3 since it is a unique close combat ability for that item.
I know you guys keep saying that special rules don't make them unique/unusual but your definition ignores the only other way to classify power weapons. You can't add rules when your told not to which is exactly what your trying to do.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
chewielight wrote: juraigamer wrote:Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"
I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)
Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.
Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.
That listing states what it states. We can do RAW or RAI but you need to choose one or the other and not just to suit your needs. The fact is thatwe can only use what the rules give us. Your choosing to ignore one set of rules to weakly attempt to force another definition that doesn't fit.
Its been stated way to many times that keeps being purposefully ignored. Power weapons are in only four categories and are detailed that they must not have special rules. If they don't have a special rule attached then we are directed to look at them in order to determine one of the four types. Since Dante's axe has a special rule "master crafted" we can not look at it to determine what kind of power weapon it is. The logical fallacy is that your attempting to pigeon hole "unique close combat rules" as something either one of a kind or not seen before and needed to be written out. When by any number of definitions have a unique close combat rule would fall under the realm of special rules given in the brb. I won't bore you with definitions from either dictionary options but please look as it makes it clear.
Special rules give a person,thing, or item an unique ability(yes unique also means unusual and not just one of a kind) that makes said person p,place,or thing unique amount those items. A predator is a tank but a Baal predator is a fast tank which makes it unique amoung predators. Master crafted,poison,etc makes those items unique when compared to others of their type. Yes you can purchase MC and it would make it str +ap3 since it is a unique close combat ability for that item.
I know you guys keep saying that special rules don't make them unique/unusual but your definition ignores the only other way to classify power weapons. You can't add rules when your told not to which is exactly what your trying to do.
I would reread both rules verbatim Chewie because you are wrong in how you come about to your conclusion. We can agree that the Axe of Mortalis is ap3, user str/ init, but your reasoning is flawed.
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Post by: jbunny
I know this is slightly against the rules, but so many people keep talking about the Definition of Unique. This is from Dictionary.com. Please look at option 5
u·nique
[yoo-neek] Show IPA
adjective
1.
existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript.
2.
having no like or equal; unparalleled; incomparable: Bach was unique in his handling of counterpoint.
3.
limited in occurrence to a given class, situation, or area: a species unique to Australia.
4.
limited to a single outcome or result; without alternative possibilities: Certain types of problems have unique solutions.
5.
not typical; unusual: She has a very unique smile.
It appears that Unique CAN mean unusual. So if an item is listed as Unique, then it is possible for that item to be considered Unusual. Also unique does not mean the only one like it. (Though that is one possibility). So have two weapons that provide +2 Str does not prevent something from being Unique.
The issue is we have no idea what the designers intended.
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Post by: kirsanth
Check out Codex: Tyranids for a blatant example. (I play 'nids, cope)
Page 33's text about "Unique weaponry" regarding things like Flesh hooks. They are on every Lictor, as well as DeathLeaper (for those who differentiate), and are listed as unique.
Rules can be unique to sets and groups, as well as specific individuals.
It does not change anything.
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Post by: juraigamer
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
You do not understand the rules at all.
If you buy a power weapon, the wargear entry is a power weapon, period. The weapon type and rules are established by looking at what the model is equipped at that point. If you choose to master-craft it, you are master-crafting that weapon type and rules established when you bought that power weapon.
Dante's wargear entry is the Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say power weapon, it specifically says Axe of Mortalis so therefore its type and rules are never determined by what it looks like. Never.
Perhaps you should read before posting, it clearly states his axe is a master crafted power weapon on page 63 of the BA codex.
Let me say that again, it says his axe is a master crafted power weapon
Same sequence, different method, a captain with a mastercrafted weapon is the same as dante with a master crafted weapon. Mastercrafted does not make a weapon "unusual"
Dante has an axe, get over it guys.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
juraigamer wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
You do not understand the rules at all.
If you buy a power weapon, the wargear entry is a power weapon, period. The weapon type and rules are established by looking at what the model is equipped at that point. If you choose to master-craft it, you are master-crafting that weapon type and rules established when you bought that power weapon.
Dante's wargear entry is the Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say power weapon, it specifically says Axe of Mortalis so therefore its type and rules are never determined by what it looks like. Never.
Perhaps you should read before posting, it clearly states his axe is a master crafted power weapon on page 63 of the BA codex.
Let me say that again, it says his axe is a master crafted power weapon
Same sequence, different method, a captain with a mastercrafted weapon is the same as dante with a master crafted weapon. Mastercrafted does not make a weapon "unusual"
,
Dante has an axe, get over it guys.
I am going to walk you through this one so you don't hurt yourself. This is the first part of the rules regarding power weapons:
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
Dante's wargear entry says, AXE OF MORTALIS. The rules entry for the AXE OF MORTALIS says that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Do you see the difference between what the rule on pg 61 says and what Dante's entry says? Again, going to go slow for you;
Dante's wargear entry does NOT say master-crafted power weapon, it says AXE OF MORTALIS. Page 63 then tells you that the AXE OF MORTALIS is a master-crafted power weapon.
If you are still going to stumble over that difference, I highly doubt you will get the rest.
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Post by: jbunny
Juraigamer -
There are two things going here that you fail to comprehend with your last post.
1. Dantes "Axe" is a Power Weapon. Power Weapons can be one of many forms. If it is a regular Power Weapon then you are able to change and remodel the Weapon as an Axe, Sword, Maul, or Lance.
2. Dante's Ax is either a Unique Power weapon, OR it is a Power Weapon with Additional Special rules. If it is a Power Weapon with Additional Special rules, we are never given permission to look at the model to see what is it. So it does not matter how it is modeled, because we are never allowed to look at the weapon.
Just because the name is Axe, does not mean the rules state it is an Axe. You should really get over that. (Your words to everyone else)
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Post by: Jackal
The fact that it is a named weapon in its entry should be enough on its own to show its unique, rather than a basic power weapon.
Just because it uses rules for a power weapon with a slight change does not mean its no longer unique.
If it called it a master crafter power weapon, fair play, carry on.
It does not though, it has a name and its own entry for rules.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
liturgies of blood wrote:The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.
I'm looking at the 1998 BA Codex, and I see nothing under Dante about an axe. Just a Power Weapon.
Edit: Though I will add the picture of him on the next page does have him holding an axe.
30265
Post by: SoloFalcon1138
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
53776
Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
Happyjew wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.
I'm looking at the 1998 BA Codex, and I see nothing under Dante about an axe. Just a Power Weapon.
Edit: Though I will add the picture of him on the next page does have him holding an axe.
Well I AM looking at the second edition codex: angels of death, circa 1996. Dante's wargear reads: "Dante is armed with a power axe..." let's recall the rules for power axe in 2nd, there was a profile for one handed and two handed swings , neither affected initiative. In fact Dante's initiative in 2nd edition was 8.
Relevance ?
???
Food for thought: from the details on Dante page 92 2nd Ed codex " As a leader Dante is utterly fearless, and full of drive and initiative."
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
kirsanth wrote:
The "Glaive Encarmine" is a rule unique to a Glaive Encarmine.
No other weapon has this unique rule.
Quoting this again because some people need to read it again.
The Axe Mortalis has a further special rule JUST ONE. It is NOT that it is master-crafted. It is NOT that it is a power weapon.
The Axe Mortalis has a further special rule called "Axe Mortalis" which you will find out how to play the "Axe Mortalis" special rule under Dante's entry in the Codex p.53.
The "Axe Mortalis" rule is unique to the weapon named "Axe Mortalis" which also happens to be an Axe.
So in the hands of Dante, the Axe Mortalis is a S4 AP3 I6 master-crafted power weapon.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Happyjew wrote: liturgies of blood wrote:The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.
I'm looking at the 1998 BA Codex, and I see nothing under Dante about an axe. Just a Power Weapon.
Edit: Though I will add the picture of him on the next page does have him holding an axe.
Well I AM looking at the second edition codex: angels of death, circa 1996. Dante's wargear reads: "Dante is armed with a power axe..." let's recall the rules for power axe in 2nd, there was a profile for one handed and two handed swings , neither affected initiative. In fact Dante's initiative in 2nd edition was 8.
Relevance ?
???
Food for thought: from the details on Dante page 92 2nd Ed codex " As a leader Dante is utterly fearless, and full of drive and initiative."
Well there was a stupid argument that calling it an axe doesn't make it an axe. So dante could have the axe mortalis an 8 foot lance and that is cool.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.
Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.
But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
nkelsch wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.
Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.
But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
/quote]
Those people would be wrong. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine both have "further special rules" and these are indeed "unique special rules".
Some have misread the Unusual Power weapon to require a Unique Weapon. In fact it requires, like you said a Unique Special Rule. There is only one Axe Mortalis rule. The rule itself is by any definition unique. There is only one Glaive Encarmine special rule. It also is by any definition unique.
The rule is clear, but you must read it very carefully. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine both fit under Unusual Power Weapons.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
Nemesor Dave wrote:nkelsch wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.
Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.
But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
/quote]
Those people would be wrong. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine both have "further special rules" and these are indeed "unique special rules".
Some have misread the Unusual Power weapon to require a Unique Weapon. In fact it requires, like you said a Unique Special Rule. There is only one Axe Mortalis rule. The rule itself is by any definition unique. There is only one Glaive Encarmine special rule. It also is by any definition unique.
The rule is clear, but you must read it very carefully. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine both fit under Unusual Power Weapons.
But that is the argument... 'unique' is not undefined as a game term and people are all applying absurd and varied definitions of 'unique' to mean different things. I agree with the liberal interpretation which results in basically all special rules being unique, hence a 'catch all'. but with no clear definition, it becomes an arguefest requiring clarification.
The issue is any strict definition of UNIQUE leaves a hole in the rules... and they want to assume you can look at the weapon type for anything that doesn't meet the narrow definition of Unique they have chosen, which is not at all RAW in any capacity.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
I don't think my definition of "unique" is narrow at all. In my opinion, any "special rule" not listed in the BRB (i.e. Two-handed or Mastercrafted) follows the rules for unusual weapons. Otherwise, there is almost no point in having rules for different power weapons, since most power weapons have at least 1 special rule.
25703
Post by: juraigamer
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The butthurt over having dante go at initiative one drives the issue.
It's quite shameful that Kharn, who went to int 1 isn't getting the same treatment, seeing as the majority of kharn and berzerker spammers are kids, were as the blood angels players are making a bigger scene than those players. Quite shameful.
The rulebook is clear, but people will be trying until the FAQ gets updated with it being treated as a power axe, until them let them enjoy their feeble attempts.
43578
Post by: A Town Called Malus
juraigamer wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The butthurt over having dante go at initiative one drives the issue. It's quite shameful that Kharn, who went to int 1 isn't getting the same treatment, seeing as the majority of kharn and berzerker spammers are kids, were as the blood angels players are making a bigger scene than those players. Quite shameful. The rulebook is clear, but people will be trying until the FAQ gets updated with it being treated as a power axe, until them let them enjoy their feeble attempts.
The thing you're missing is that Kharn is a chaos character, it goes without saying that he doesn't get any love from GW.  They also took away Typhus' ability to use a psychic power and activate his force weapon in the same turn.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Because as a Nid player I have so many power weapons, and as an Eldar player I have so many power weapons without special rules (hint only only 4 different models can have a generic power weapon)
8993
Post by: jawaballs
Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.
Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.
But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.
As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.
You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.
Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!
Jawaballs
46128
Post by: Happyjew
I never said I was correct. Except when I stated it did not fall into either category. I only stated HIWPI.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
IF you are using the GW-produced model of Dante it is an axe, but what if you are using a converted model that is armed with a sword or lance?
41016
Post by: phempchildrenbob
lol, is there a reason why you put your name at the end of your comment?
phempchildrenbob
43386
Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
nkelsch wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.
Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.
But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.
jawaballs wrote:Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.
Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.
But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.
As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.
You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.
Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!
Jawaballs
I am going to have to keep bringing this up because people continue to get it wrong, including both of you;
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has."
Both of you please turn to page 82 of Codex Blood Angels and look under the wargear entry for Commander Dante. I am going to place it here if you do not have the codex;
Wargear:
Artificer Armour
Infernus pistol
The Axe of Mortalis
Jump pack
Frag and krak grenades
Iron Halo
Death Mask of Sanguinius
Now, will either of you please point out where Commander Dante's wargear says that he has a power weapon with further special rules? Having problems? That is because Commander Dante's wargear does NOT say he has a power weapon with further special rules, it says he has The Axe of Mortalis!!!! You do not apply the first part of the rule at all to Commander Dante!!
Now the second part of the rule;
If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
Turn to page 53 of Codex Blood Angels and look at Commander Dante's wargear. I am going to place the relevant part here if you do not have the codex;
The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.
Here is where the two of you have flubbed it as well as others,
The rules for Commander Dante's wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Note, this is not saying that Commander Dante's has a master-crafted power weapon, this is saying that his wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. As such, noting the emboldened text above in the second part of the rule, The Axe of Mortalis has it's OWN unique close combat rule of being able to re-roll one missed hit in close combat. Is master-crafted unique in the Warhammer 40k universe? No. Is it unique to the power weapon known as the Axe of Mortalis? Yes.
As such, the Axe of Mortalis is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon, user str/ init, and allows one a re-roll of one missed hit in close combat.
8993
Post by: jawaballs
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:nkelsch wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.
Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.
But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.
jawaballs wrote:Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.
Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.
But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.
As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.
You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.
Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!
Jawaballs
I am going to have to keep bringing this up because people continue to get it wrong, including both of you;
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has."
Both of you please turn to page 82 of Codex Blood Angels and look under the wargear entry for Commander Dante. I am going to place it here if you do not have the codex;
Wargear:
Artificer Armour
Infernus pistol
The Axe of Mortalis
Jump pack
Frag and krak grenades
Iron Halo
Death Mask of Sanguinius
Now, will either of you please point out where Commander Dante's wargear says that he has a power weapon with further special rules? Having problems? That is because Commander Dante's wargear does NOT say he has a power weapon with further special rules, it says he has The Axe of Mortalis!!!! You do not apply the first part of the rule at all to Commander Dante!!
Now the second part of the rule;
If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
Turn to page 63 of Codex Blood Angels and look at Commander Dante's wargear. I am going to place the relevant part here if you do not have the codex;
The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.
Here is where the two of you have flubbed it as well as others,
The rules for Commander Dante's wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Note, this is not saying that Commander Dante's has a master-crafted power weapon, this is saying that his wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. As such, noting the emboldened text above in the second part of the rule, The Axe of Mortalis has it's OWN unique close combat rule of being able to re-roll one missed hit in close combat. Is master-crafted unique in the Warhammer 40k universe? No. Is it unique to the power weapon known as the Axe of Mortalis? Yes.
As such, the Axe of Mortalis is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon, user str/ init, and allows one a re-roll of one missed hit in close combat.
Prime example of snarky. Well done sir.
Page 39 of the rule book lists Master Crafted as a SPECIAL RULE. SO. Master Crafted, in whatever way you want to define it , cannot be argued as being any thing other than a Special Rule.
Page 53 of Codex Blood Angels says the weapon is a master crafted power weapon. Therefore, it is a power weapon, with a further special rule.
See the rest of my post, rinse, repeat
Jawaballs
43386
Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
 jawaballs wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:nkelsch wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?
The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.
Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.
But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.
jawaballs wrote:Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.
Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.
But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.
As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.
You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.
Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!
Jawaballs
I am going to have to keep bringing this up because people continue to get it wrong, including both of you;
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has."
Both of you please turn to page 82 of Codex Blood Angels and look under the wargear entry for Commander Dante. I am going to place it here if you do not have the codex;
Wargear:
Artificer Armour
Infernus pistol
The Axe of Mortalis
Jump pack
Frag and krak grenades
Iron Halo
Death Mask of Sanguinius
Now, will either of you please point out where Commander Dante's wargear says that he has a power weapon with further special rules? Having problems? That is because Commander Dante's wargear does NOT say he has a power weapon with further special rules, it says he has The Axe of Mortalis!!!! You do not apply the first part of the rule at all to Commander Dante!!
Now the second part of the rule;
If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
Turn to page 63 of Codex Blood Angels and look at Commander Dante's wargear. I am going to place the relevant part here if you do not have the codex;
The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.
Here is where the two of you have flubbed it as well as others,
The rules for Commander Dante's wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Note, this is not saying that Commander Dante's has a master-crafted power weapon, this is saying that his wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. As such, noting the emboldened text above in the second part of the rule, The Axe of Mortalis has it's OWN unique close combat rule of being able to re-roll one missed hit in close combat. Is master-crafted unique in the Warhammer 40k universe? No. Is it unique to the power weapon known as the Axe of Mortalis? Yes.
As such, the Axe of Mortalis is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon, user str/ init, and allows one a re-roll of one missed hit in close combat.
Prime example of snarky. Well done sir.
Page 39 of the rule book lists Master Crafted as a SPECIAL RULE. SO. Master Crafted, in whatever way you want to define it , cannot be argued as being any thing other than a Special Rule.
Page 53 of Codex Blood Angels says the weapon is a master crafted power weapon. Therefore, it is a power weapon, with a further special rule.
See the rest of my post, rinse, repeat
Jawaballs
Willful ignorance? Check.
Read Commander Dante's wargear entry on page 81. The wargear entry does NOT say, "master-crafted power weapon".
Read Commander Dante's wargear entry on page 53. The wargear entry does NOT say, "master-crafted power weapon".
The RULES ENTRY for Commander Dante's WARGEAR ENTRY says, "master-crafted power weapon" but the WARGEAR ENTRY says, "The Axe of Mortalis".
Read the rest of my post, rinse, repeat.
8993
Post by: jawaballs
Willful ignorance?
Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.
I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)
It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?
I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...
It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.
In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)
Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.
Jawaballs
43386
Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
jawaballs wrote:
Willful ignorance?
Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.
I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)
It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?
I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...
It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.
In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)
Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.
Jawaballs
Do you know the difference between a wargear entry and a rules entry?
"The Axe of Mortalis" is the wargear entry.
"Master-crafted power weapon" is the rules entry FOR the wargear entry.
Now read the first part of the rule that you keep quoting,
If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has.
Dante is the model. His wargear says he has The Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say he has a master-crafted weapon.
I know you want to jump the gun and thus equate that because The Axe of Mortalis rules entry says it is a master-crafted power weapon, ergo, Dante's wargear says it has a power weapon with further special rules. However you need to slow down and read the rules so you do not make that false assumption.
Again, the wargear entry is The Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry for the wargear entry, The Axe of Mortalis, is master-crafted power weapon.
53428
Post by: Nemesor Dave
jawaballs wrote:
Willful ignorance?
Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.
I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)
It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?
I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...
It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.
In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)
Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.
Jawaballs
Name: Commander Dante
Weapon: The Axe Mortalis
Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).
Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.
Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.
Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.
33667
Post by: MadMaverick76
I treat the Axe of Mortalis as an Master-crafted Power sword.
43386
Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
Nemesor Dave wrote: jawaballs wrote:
Willful ignorance?
Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.
I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)
It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?
I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...
It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.
In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)
Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.
Jawaballs
Name: Commander Dante
Weapon: The Axe Mortalis
Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).
Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.
Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.
Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.
No idea where you are getting that one from. On page 53, The Axe of Mortalis is listed under wargear with the Death Mask of Sanguinius, another listed wargear item of Commander Dante.
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Post by: masquerade81
Here's an observation. If indeed mastercrafted special rule would make a power weapon unusual, does it mean there can not be a mastercrafted power mace or an axe with that interpretation of the rules?
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
masquerade81 wrote:Here's an observation. If indeed mastercrafted special rule would make a power weapon unusual, does it mean there can not be a mastercrafted power mace or an axe with that interpretation of the rules?
Nobody said Mastercrafted makes the Axe Mortalis unusual. Its the unique "Axe Mortalis" rule for the Axe Mortalis weapon that makes the Axe Mortalis weapon an Unusual Power Weapon.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
masquerade81 wrote:Here's an observation. If indeed mastercrafted special rule would make a power weapon unusual, does it mean there can not be a mastercrafted power mace or an axe with that interpretation of the rules?
I think the best way to show you this is to give you a hypothetical scenario,
Space Marine Captain
WARGEAR:
Bolt Pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Artificer Armor
Krak Grenades
Frag Grenades
OPTIONS:
The Space Marine Captain may exchange his close combat weapon for a power weapon.............15pts
The Space Marine Captain may master-craft any of his weapons.................................10pts
Now, the model's wargear entry does NOT say that he has a power weapon with any further special rules. He does have the options to buy a power weapon and master-craft it. If he were to do so, he would buy the power weapon and THEN master-craft it. That is not the same as having the model's wargear say that he has a master-crafted power weapon with further special rules. The sequence of events in that case would be,
1. Power weapon is bought and type/rules are determined by what is on the model, lets say a power axe in this instance.
2. Master-crafting is bought and the power axe is now master-crafted.
The same would apply if the Space Marine Captain had come with a power weapon in his wargear entry as default and then exercised the option to master-craft it.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Nemesor Dave wrote:
Name: Commander Dante
Weapon: The Axe Mortalis
Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).
Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.
Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.
Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.
No idea where you are getting that one from. On page 53, The Axe of Mortalis is listed under wargear with the Death Mask of Sanguinius, another listed wargear item of Commander Dante.
This comment made me notice that the page has it's own Special Rules section separate from the BRB Special Rules, which is distinctly not part of the Wargear section. This changes everything.
Types of Power Weapons requires:
a. wargear says it has a power weapon
b. that weapon has no further Special Rules
1. Dante's entry says he has The Axe Mortalis which is a power weapon. Not all power weapons are an Axe Mortalis, but all Axe Mortalis's are power weapons. So if it says I have an Axe Mortalis, and it says Axe Mortalis is a power weapon, then it says I have a power weapon.
2. There's nothing under "Special Rules" for the Axe Mortalis. No further Special Rules. As an example if Gabriel Seths's Blood Reaver were a power weapon, Whirlwind of Gore would be a "further special rule" for the Blood Reaver.
+1 for Axe Mortalis being: +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, which can be changed by changing the model.
Unusual Power Weapons require:
a. one or more unique rules.
1. Here I previously considered The Axe Mortalis entry in the Wargear section to be a unique rule. But as you have pointed out this is WARGEAR. This is not the Axe Mortalis rule defined. This is the wargear Axe Mortalis weapon defined. So The Axe Mortalis is described as having two special rules - master-crafted and it's a power weapon. Neither of these are unique.
-1 for Axe Mortalis being an Unusual Power Weapon.
It's looking like Axe Mortalis is a +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, Power Axe.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
Nemesor Dave wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Nemesor Dave wrote:
Name: Commander Dante
Weapon: The Axe Mortalis
Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).
Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.
Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.
Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.
No idea where you are getting that one from. On page 53, The Axe of Mortalis is listed under wargear with the Death Mask of Sanguinius, another listed wargear item of Commander Dante.
This comment made me notice that the page has it's own Special Rules section separate from the BRB Special Rules, which is distinctly not part of the Wargear section. This changes everything.
Types of Power Weapons requires:
a. wargear says it has a power weapon
b. that weapon has no further Special Rules
1. Dante's entry says he has The Axe Mortalis which is a power weapon. Not all power weapons are an Axe Mortalis, but all Axe Mortalis's are power weapons. So if it says I have an Axe Mortalis, and it says Axe Mortalis is a power weapon, then it says I have a power weapon.
2. There's nothing under "Special Rules" for the Axe Mortalis. No further Special Rules. As an example if Gabriel Seths's Blood Reaver were a power weapon, Whirlwind of Gore would be a "further special rule" for the Blood Reaver.
+1 for Axe Mortalis being: +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, which can be changed by changing the model.
Unusual Power Weapons require:
a. one or more unique rules.
1. Here I previously considered The Axe Mortalis entry in the Wargear section to be a unique rule. But as you have pointed out this is WARGEAR. This is not the Axe Mortalis rule defined. This is the wargear Axe Mortalis weapon defined. So The Axe Mortalis is described as having two special rules - master-crafted and it's a power weapon. Neither of these are unique.
-1 for Axe Mortalis being an Unusual Power Weapon.
It's looking like Axe Mortalis is a +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, Power Axe.
Now you are going down the other path of madness.... lol.
The Axe of Mortalis is the wargear entry. Master-crafted power weapon is the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis.
So we know that the only time you look to the model is if the model's wargear entry tells you that it is a power weapon with no further special rules. Well the fact that the wargear entry states The Axe of Mortalis it immediately and forever disqualifies you from ever looking to the Dante model to determine what type of weapon he has. The wargear entry clause is set and despite the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis telling you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, that does not change the wargear entry. Look to the Space Wolves codex where the Wolf Priest wargear entry says,
Crozius Arcanum (power weapon)
For an example of where the wargear entry states both a special name of the weapon and a power weapon. The wargear entry for the Axe of Mortalis does not do this, the rules entry does.
That completely erases the premise of, "+1 for Axe Mortalis being: +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, which can be changed by changing the model."
Onto your second point regarding the Axe of Mortalis not being an unusual power weapon,
If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
The rules entry tells us that the Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon and that it is master-crafted.
Now the above quoted rule does not ask you to check across the Warhammer 40k universe to see if the Axe of Mortalis has A unique close combat rule among all other close combat rules. The rule above asks you to check if the Axe of Mortalis has ITS OWN unique close combat rule. In this case the Axe of Mortalis does indeed have ITS OWN unique close combat rule, aka, master-crafting. Hence, you treat is a an AP 3 Melee weapon that allows a reroll of one missed hit in close combat.
The Axe of Mortalis, unusual power weapon.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Now you are going down the other path of madness.... lol.
The Axe of Mortalis is the wargear entry. Master-crafted power weapon is the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis.
So we know that the only time you look to the model is if the model's wargear entry tells you that it is a power weapon with no further special rules. Well the fact that the wargear entry states The Axe of Mortalis it immediately and forever disqualifies you from ever looking to the Dante model to determine what type of weapon he has. The wargear entry clause is set and despite the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis telling you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, that does not change the wargear entry.
Now hold on here. P. 53 of the Codex, I see a section below WARGEAR where it shows you the SPECIAL RULES for Dante. There is no mention of Axe Mortalis anywhere here. While the Axe Mortalis has master-crafted, that Special Rule is part of description of Axe Mortalis. It's not a "further" Special Rule, its the only special rule. Whirlwind of Gore mentions Blood Reaver, so it's a "further special rule" for Blood Reaver. Axe Mortalis has it's description and no more.
If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
The rules entry tells us that the Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon and that it is master-crafted.
Now the above quoted rule does not ask you to check across the Warhammer 40k universe to see if the Axe of Mortalis has A unique close combat rule among all other close combat rules. The rule above asks you to check if the Axe of Mortalis has ITS OWN unique close combat rule. In this case the Axe of Mortalis does indeed have ITS OWN unique close combat rule, aka, master-crafting. Hence, you treat is a an AP 3 Melee weapon that allows a reroll of one missed hit in close combat.
The Axe of Mortalis, unusual power weapon.
The Axe Mortalis has it's own close combat rule, but "master-crafted power weapon" doesn't make it unique. I can certainly have more than one weapon in my army with "master-crafted", "plain power weapon", and "master-crafted power weapon".
Own rule? Yes.
Unique? No way.
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
Nemesor Dave wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Now you are going down the other path of madness.... lol.
The Axe of Mortalis is the wargear entry. Master-crafted power weapon is the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis.
So we know that the only time you look to the model is if the model's wargear entry tells you that it is a power weapon with no further special rules. Well the fact that the wargear entry states The Axe of Mortalis it immediately and forever disqualifies you from ever looking to the Dante model to determine what type of weapon he has. The wargear entry clause is set and despite the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis telling you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, that does not change the wargear entry.
Now hold on here. P. 53 of the Codex, I see a section below WARGEAR where it shows you the SPECIAL RULES for Dante. There is no mention of Axe Mortalis anywhere here. While the Axe Mortalis has master-crafted, that Special Rule is part of description of Axe Mortalis. It's not a "further" Special Rule, its the only special rule. Whirlwind of Gore mentions Blood Reaver, so it's a "further special rule" for Blood Reaver. Axe Mortalis has it's description and no more.
If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.
The rules entry tells us that the Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon and that it is master-crafted.
Now the above quoted rule does not ask you to check across the Warhammer 40k universe to see if the Axe of Mortalis has A unique close combat rule among all other close combat rules. The rule above asks you to check if the Axe of Mortalis has ITS OWN unique close combat rule. In this case the Axe of Mortalis does indeed have ITS OWN unique close combat rule, aka, master-crafting. Hence, you treat is a an AP 3 Melee weapon that allows a reroll of one missed hit in close combat.
The Axe of Mortalis, unusual power weapon.
The Axe Mortalis has it's own close combat rule, but "master-crafted power weapon" doesn't make it unique. I can certainly have more than one weapon in my army with "master-crafted", "plain power weapon", and "master-crafted power weapon".
Own rule? Yes.
Unique? No way.
The point is that the wargear entry for Dante does not say power weapon, it says The Axe of Mortalis. Hence you never look at Dante to determine the rules and type of the Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry tells you that the Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon, however the rule does not say,
If a models wargear rules entry says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has......
You look at the wargear entry and it says, The Axe of Mortalis.
As for the second part, you are comparing, "master-crafted power weapon" to all weapons of the Warhammer 40k universe.
The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon with its own unique rule in close combat. It is not unique to the Warhammer 40k universe, but it is unique to the power weapon called, The Axe of Mortalis. That is what the vernacular of the rule uses when it states,
If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The point is that the wargear entry for Dante does not say power weapon, it says The Axe of Mortalis. Hence you never look at Dante to determine the rules and type of the Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry tells you that the Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon, however the rule does not say,
But it does say in the Wargear Section says that Axe Mortalis is a power weapon. Wargear is not just the bolded lines up until the "Iron Halo (see page 40)". The models Wargear is that entire section up to the line that says "Special Rules:". In the wargear section on page 53 it says "power weapon". So that satisfies the requirement: "the models wargear says it has a power weapon".
If a models wargear rules entry says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has......
The wargear section shows the rules for the weapon, but after it's description (master-crafted and power weapon) it has no further special rules. I would expect to find "further special rules" after the line that says "Special Rules" on p. 53. This would be additional special rules for the weapon.
I am definitely making a distinction between "Special Rules for the weapon" and "further Special Rules for the weapon". It seems picky to me to say it, but that word "further" is like "additional" or "more" which would be mean +1 more place to find Special Rules for the weapon.
You look at the wargear entry and it says, The Axe of Mortalis.
As for the second part, you are comparing, "master-crafted power weapon" to all weapons of the Warhammer 40k universe.
The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon with its own unique rule in close combat. It is not unique to the Warhammer 40k universe, but it is unique to the power weapon called, The Axe of Mortalis. That is what the vernacular of the rule uses when it states,
This doesn't make sense to me. Unique means one of a kind. Of course every weapon has a unique definition to itself.
It would be like saying I have a box of number 2 pencils and each has an eraser that is unique to itself because each only has 1 eraser. More likely the word unique has a purpose in the sentence, meaning the weapon has a rule describing a special game mechanic that isn't shared by any other weapon in the game. Master crafted is not unique.
Combined these two make Dantes axe a Power Axe, not Unusual.
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Post by: Happyjew
Dave, not saying I disagree, but I'm curious. What if it is a two-handed, mastercrafted power weapon?
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
Nemesor Dave wrote:Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
The point is that the wargear entry for Dante does not say power weapon, it says The Axe of Mortalis. Hence you never look at Dante to determine the rules and type of the Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry tells you that the Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon, however the rule does not say,
But it does say in the Wargear Section says that Axe Mortalis is a power weapon. Wargear is not just the bolded lines up until the "Iron Halo (see page 40)". The models Wargear is that entire section up to the line that says "Special Rules:". In the wargear section on page 53 it says "power weapon". So that satisfies the requirement: "the models wargear says it has a power weapon".
If a models wargear rules entry says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has......
The wargear section shows the rules for the weapon, but after it's description (master-crafted and power weapon) it has no further special rules. I would expect to find "further special rules" after the line that says "Special Rules" on p. 53. This would be additional special rules for the weapon.
I am definitely making a distinction between "Special Rules for the weapon" and "further Special Rules for the weapon". It seems picky to me to say it, but that word "further" is like "additional" or "more" which would be mean +1 more place to find Special Rules for the weapon.
You look at the wargear entry and it says, The Axe of Mortalis.
As for the second part, you are comparing, "master-crafted power weapon" to all weapons of the Warhammer 40k universe.
The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon with its own unique rule in close combat. It is not unique to the Warhammer 40k universe, but it is unique to the power weapon called, The Axe of Mortalis. That is what the vernacular of the rule uses when it states,
This doesn't make sense to me. Unique means one of a kind. Of course every weapon has a unique definition to itself.
It would be like saying I have a box of number 2 pencils and each has an eraser that is unique to itself because each only has 1 eraser. More likely the word unique has a purpose in the sentence, meaning the weapon has a rule describing a special game mechanic that isn't shared by any other weapon in the game. Master crafted is not unique.
Combined these two make Dantes axe a Power Axe, not Unusual.
You are speeding reading the section and jumping to the conclusion that the rules for the Axe of Mortalis is the wargear of the model.
I showed you a prime example in the Space Wolves codex with the Wolf Priest Crozius Arcanum of what you are trying to equate to the Axe of Mortalis. Go look at that entry and you will see where a wargear entry not only gives you a specialized name (Crozius Arcanum) but then says power weapon.
The wargear entry for both the army list entry and on page 53 both state he has the Axe of Mortalis. The rules for the Axe of Mortalis then tells you that it is a master-crafted power weapon. You do not go back and then retcon the wargear entry to say that the model has a power weapon.
The problem with your pencil analogy is that you are taking a box of the same pencils. If it is a box of Acme pencils, then yes, each eraser is not unique to each pencil as they are the same pencil. However if I were to place a Bic pencil in that box, the the eraser on the Bic is unique to the Bic pencil. Does it do the same thing as all the Acme pencisl? Yes. However that eraser is unique to the Bic pencil because it is on a Bic pencil.
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Post by: Dandruff
My problem with the whole matter at the moment is a Glaive Encarmine. This weapon shares everything, in common with The Axe Mortalis. It's "named" and it's got a special rule (or two), the only exception is that more than one model and unit can carry them. Nothing unique, unusual, about it, so you look at the model, correct? And said model may be changed, correct?
Everything that applies to "the axe" have to apply to a glaive as well and vice versa.
Please GW, can we have an FAQ? It didn't come out with Dark Vengeance...
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Post by: Hoopified
Look I've been reading this absolutely amazed at that twisting of this rule. Look when taking a special character you generally buy the model who is what..... Modeled a specific way, in Dante's case it's a axe. So it's a axe no changing it to a sword. Now the axe of mortalis as I see it can be seen in both ways as unique and as a PW, but here's the deal it has the name axe of mortalis, it didn't have a upgrade section in e listing to add master crafted to its profile making it unique to all other power axes since MC is coming standard. It's a axe that should have additional rules for ap2 and +1 str but it doesn't. It is a unusual power weapon as it has a MC upgrade at no additional cost. As to modeling him with a sword....... Then your not using Dante, unless he's a made up character for your specialized army that has a sword with the same rules ( being that no bonuses are given through that change) model him how you want but no additional rules or changes because of what weapon he's holding will change that, simple don't call him Dante if he has a sword and still use the rules. The axe debate really doesn't matter it is a unique weapon, anyone arguing against is trying to rules lawyer the game. If you want a counts as model fine do it then but no changes to the weapon profile will occur due to being there is only one axe of mortalis, now if you make a sword that does the same so be it rules haven't been changed and he is a different character. If I were to do what you want to do that means that I could model abbadon with a axe instead of his sword and use those rules to get away with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as far as the glove issue goes for you dandruff, grey knights have weapons like that and are considered unique weapons.
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Post by: Xanrn
Page 45 – Astorath the Grim, The Executioner’s Axe.
Replace the first sentence with the following profile:
Range S AP Type -
- 6 2 Melee, Two-handed,
Unwieldy
Page 53 – Commander Dante, The Axe Mortalis.
Replace the entry with the “The Axe Mortalis is a power axe
with the Master-crafted special rule.”
Q: Are Glaive Encarmines treated as ‘unusual power weapons’ (and
therefore AP 3), or do they follow the rules for power axes/swords as
defined by the type of weapon the model is carrying? (p50)
A: Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Types
of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed
special rules. They would therefore have the following profiles.
Range S AP Type
Glaive Encarmine - User 3 Melee,
(Sword) Master-crafted,
Two-handed.
Range S AP Type
Glaive Encarmine - +1 2 Melee,
(Axe) Master-crafted,
Two-handed,
Unwieldy.
Oddily enough Relic Blades are now +2 Str AP3 whatever they look like.
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Post by: nkelsch
So GW did take the path of 'we maintain the illusion of the stock models' and not the path of 'you can choose to convert whatever you wish' with most units where it was in question.
Harlequins have swords now and no more RunePriest Axe Crozarius.
It does appear like they got almost all the weapons which have been 'unusual' debated. They also got all the weapons with very defined 'stock' weapons. So anyone who survived the cut, choose your powerweapons!
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Post by: Tyr Grimtooth
That didn't so much as clarify the Axe of Mortalis but flat out errated it.
Oh well, not one of my characters that gets a wasted init 6.
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Post by: Grey Templar
They also fixed Glaive Encarmines. They're now Axes or Swords that are also Master Crafted and Two Handed.
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Post by: juraigamer
It looked like an axe, GW said it was an axe, nuff said.
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Post by: Grimnarsmate
Oh my god its like Njal in a rhino all over again, you can have a fun game and use it as a power axe or you can make the world think that you are a d*** and say that 'just because its description and name specificaly states that it is an axe doesn't make it an axe'.
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Post by: Happyjew
They changed the old Howling Banshee Exarch with an axe to a stylized Executioner.
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Post by: Grugknuckle
nkelsch wrote:Harlequins have swords now and no more WolfPriest Axe Crozarius.
I always thought it was kind of bogus to call your crozius a sword / axe / whatever.
It does appear like they got almost all the weapons which have been 'unusual' debated. They also got all the weapons with very defined 'stock' weapons. So anyone who survived the cut, choose your powerweapons!
I haven't looked yet, but did they cover the DCA?
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Post by: Happyjew
Actually it's Howling Banshees that have power swords.
Didn't see anything on DCA yet, so I'm assuming they are still 2 Power Weapons.
They also did not fix any of the Eldar CCW except for the Fire Axe. So no idea if Triskele are AP2 in CC as suggested by their ranged profile, or AP3 due to being a unique weapon.
I am glad they did not touch my Singing Spears (yet).
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Post by: Grey Templar
No mention of DCAs anywhere. Schenanigins ensue...
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Post by: nkelsch
DCA are just power weapons with no further special rules... which means it is implied we may choose. The real issues were weapons with 'further special rules' which people deemed not 'unique CC rules'.
I believe all of those got addressed. Every master-crafted Power weapon got explicit types applied which means the type is defined so there is no need to 'look at the model' which means the 'further special rules' doesn't limit it.
So smash your DCA with a hammer and model them up. I feel like this was a comprehensive enough net that caught everything they wished to catch.
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Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.
How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...
When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!
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Post by: Oaka
That sucks to know that my Blood Angels opponents have been cheating all Summer...
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Post by: Gloomfang
 Oaka wrote:That sucks to know that my Blood Angels opponents have been cheating all Summer...
They haven't been cheating. Unit the FAQ came out they were playing by the rules. If they try to do it from now on though they will be cheating.
Not happy. My poor Fleshtearers and my Dante counts-as are no longer WYSIWYG. Time for them to go on the shelf with my Aribites.
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Post by: Horst
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.
How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...
When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!
Its not like they can single you out in hand to hand, unless its in a challenge.
And if its in a challenge, its not like they can penetrate your armor, unless they are also swinging last.
So powerfist sarges are a concern. Still, a powerfist sarge only has like a what, 20% chance of killing you? Not great.
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
 Horst wrote: TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe. How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat... When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!
Its not like they can single you out in hand to hand, unless its in a challenge. And if its in a challenge, its not like they can penetrate your armor, unless they are also swinging last. So powerfist sarges are a concern. Still, a powerfist sarge only has like a what, 20% chance of killing you? Not great.
Necron Overlord with Warscythe. S7, AP1 and strikes at Initiative 2.
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Post by: jbunny
If my math is right, then a Sarg has a 37% chance of killing Dante if Dante Charges, and a 50% chance if the Sarge charges.
The is a 20% chance of 1 attack killing Dante, so that bumps up to 37% and then 50% with each additional attack.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 A Town Called Malus wrote: Horst wrote: TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.
How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...
When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!
Its not like they can single you out in hand to hand, unless its in a challenge.
And if its in a challenge, its not like they can penetrate your armor, unless they are also swinging last.
So powerfist sarges are a concern. Still, a powerfist sarge only has like a what, 20% chance of killing you? Not great.
Necron Overlord with Warscythe. S7, AP1 and strikes at Initiative 2.
He only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge at WS4. Not that great. Destroyer lords are a bit better, but still.
Now, the real threat is the gear he might have. MSS can ruin anyone's day, and TessLabs are just scary.
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Post by: Orblivion
Why do they hate Dante so much? Incubus Klaives are still AP2 without unwieldy and yet they couldn't give him a special axe for some reason. Worse yet, Huskblades are AP2 without being unwieldy as well, and they inflict Instant Death. Being reduced to I1 makes his lack of Eternal Warrior stand out that much more.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.
You can.
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Post by: Kevin949
Well, really, "any" necron that can take a warscythe is S7 AP1 I2.
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Post by: Drager
Unit of Incubi, Str 4 AP2 2 attacks each base, Init 5
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Post by: A Town Called Malus
 Kevin949 wrote: Well, really, "any" necron that can take a warscythe is S7 AP1 I2.
True but they're less likely to have other stuff to make them as nasty/tough.
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Post by: Orblivion
Sorry, wrong thread.
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Post by: TheLionOfTheForest
It is a big deal when you consider the fact that these models (Dante & Astorath) are point costed based on certain criteria , WS BS etc. Making them go from I6 and I5 respectively to I1 IMO makes them overcosted for their points. Adding EW would have mitigated the changes. Having Dante swing at I1 and have that high a chance of getting waxed by a Srg..... No thank you.
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Post by: Halfpast_Yellow
IC initiative values have been irrelevant since 6th ed launched.
Thank god he was clarified at AP2 Str +1
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Post by: liturgies of blood
Halfpast_Yellow wrote:IC initiative values have been irrelevant since 6th ed launched.
Thank god he was clarified at AP2 Str +1
For some it still does. Leafblower combat characters like thunderwolf lords haven't changed how they played much at all.
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Post by: Nemesor Dave
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.
How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...
When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!
Merry Christmas, you CAN choose to attack with the infernus pistol.
P.51 BRB
If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to srike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.
Sure it uses the basic Pistol profile, S4(user) AP- but, you do get your hits in at I6 with Dante if some strange situation merits this.
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Post by: masquerade81
bah, just chicken out of a challenge with dante, then hit and run after combat, then melta something Seriously why are people hung on the fact that dante isnt a perfect assault character. I see his strengths in the fact that on turn 2 him and a unit of SG or any other DS unit can just land behind anything and melt it to a puddle. If they get assaulted, just chicken and hit and run Ofc if there is no challenge i welcome the str +1 boost and AP2 from the axe any day
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Post by: Captain Antivas
I am sorry, but all this whining about Dante is making me sick. He is OP for his points cost and needed to be knocked down a peg anyway. Kantor has Init 5 and a power fist so my Chapter Master has ALWAYS hit at Init 1. You don't see me crying about that. If you fail a Leadership test trying to hit Dante you are WS 1 for goodness sake. He makes a model -1 W/A/Init/WS and they have no defense against this. He is still an epic character and still worth taking. How dare they apply balance to an already way OP codex. They have altered Dante, pray they don't alter him any further.
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Post by: Kevin949
Only the lords, really. Anrakyr and Obyron both have warscythes and they're pretty beast in their own right. Hell, Obyron by himself was taking on a unit of GK terminators and winning in my last game. Granted, my friend and I were just about to leave anyway and I failed my charge roll but I was talking sh*t that he could beat them so we played a quick couple of rounds of assault with them to see how it would go. Man, AP 3 on those force weapons is spectacular for me now! And watching obyron get 10 attacks was particularly wonderful.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
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Post by: Captain Antivas
Did you have something to say or are you just going to smack yourself in the face without making a point?
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Post by: Happyjew
Wait, so are we now just arguing the usefulness of a character? I think this thread is done.
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Post by: Anarchyman99
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:It is a big deal when you consider the fact that these models (Dante & Astorath) are point costed based on certain criteria , WS BS etc. Making them go from I6 and I5 respectively to I1 IMO makes them overcosted for their points. Adding EW would have mitigated the changes. Having Dante swing at I1 and have that high a chance of getting waxed by a Srg..... No thank you.
QFT
It's sad that the rules end up killing the heart of the game. Dante the oldest living Space Marine (Space Wolf players....Bjorn is a Dreadnought, not as "alive" as Dante) in a Chapter known for close combat prowess for 10,000 some odd years he's been hitting last? And Astorath, a guy that has to kill over raged Death Company....yeah he'll wait to attack them and go last as well. For years (more for Dante then Astorath) good toe to toe fighters, now slow.
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Post by: Mannahnin
Anarchyman, was that really worth digging up a four month old thread?
Locked for thread necromancy.
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