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Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.

Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.

But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.

Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.

jawaballs wrote:Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.

Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.

But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.

As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.

You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.

Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!

Jawaballs

I am going to have to keep bringing this up because people continue to get it wrong, including both of you;

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has."

Both of you please turn to page 82 of Codex Blood Angels and look under the wargear entry for Commander Dante. I am going to place it here if you do not have the codex;

Wargear:

Artificer Armour

Infernus pistol

The Axe of Mortalis

Jump pack

Frag and krak grenades

Iron Halo

Death Mask of Sanguinius

Now, will either of you please point out where Commander Dante's wargear says that he has a power weapon with further special rules? Having problems? That is because Commander Dante's wargear does NOT say he has a power weapon with further special rules, it says he has The Axe of Mortalis!!!! You do not apply the first part of the rule at all to Commander Dante!!

Now the second part of the rule;

If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Turn to page 63 of Codex Blood Angels and look at Commander Dante's wargear. I am going to place the relevant part here if you do not have the codex;

The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

Here is where the two of you have flubbed it as well as others,

The rules for Commander Dante's wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Note, this is not saying that Commander Dante's has a master-crafted power weapon, this is saying that his wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. As such, noting the emboldened text above in the second part of the rule, The Axe of Mortalis has it's OWN unique close combat rule of being able to re-roll one missed hit in close combat. Is master-crafted unique in the Warhammer 40k universe? No. Is it unique to the power weapon known as the Axe of Mortalis? Yes.

As such, the Axe of Mortalis is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon, user str/init, and allows one a re-roll of one missed hit in close combat.

Prime example of snarky. Well done sir.

Page 39 of the rule book lists Master Crafted as a SPECIAL RULE. SO. Master Crafted, in whatever way you want to define it , cannot be argued as being any thing other than a Special Rule.

Page 53 of Codex Blood Angels says the weapon is a master crafted power weapon. Therefore, it is a power weapon, with a further special rule.

See the rest of my post, rinse, repeat

Jawaballs

 jawaballs wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.

Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.

But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.

Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.

jawaballs wrote:Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.

Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.

But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.

As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.

You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.

Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!

Jawaballs

I am going to have to keep bringing this up because people continue to get it wrong, including both of you;

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has."

Both of you please turn to page 82 of Codex Blood Angels and look under the wargear entry for Commander Dante. I am going to place it here if you do not have the codex;

Wargear:

Artificer Armour

Infernus pistol

The Axe of Mortalis

Jump pack

Frag and krak grenades

Iron Halo

Death Mask of Sanguinius

Now, will either of you please point out where Commander Dante's wargear says that he has a power weapon with further special rules? Having problems? That is because Commander Dante's wargear does NOT say he has a power weapon with further special rules, it says he has The Axe of Mortalis!!!! You do not apply the first part of the rule at all to Commander Dante!!

Now the second part of the rule;

If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Turn to page 63 of Codex Blood Angels and look at Commander Dante's wargear. I am going to place the relevant part here if you do not have the codex;

The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

Here is where the two of you have flubbed it as well as others,

The rules for Commander Dante's wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Note, this is not saying that Commander Dante's has a master-crafted power weapon, this is saying that his wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. As such, noting the emboldened text above in the second part of the rule, The Axe of Mortalis has it's OWN unique close combat rule of being able to re-roll one missed hit in close combat. Is master-crafted unique in the Warhammer 40k universe? No. Is it unique to the power weapon known as the Axe of Mortalis? Yes.

As such, the Axe of Mortalis is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon, user str/init, and allows one a re-roll of one missed hit in close combat.

Prime example of snarky. Well done sir.

Page 39 of the rule book lists Master Crafted as a SPECIAL RULE. SO. Master Crafted, in whatever way you want to define it , cannot be argued as being any thing other than a Special Rule.

Page 53 of Codex Blood Angels says the weapon is a master crafted power weapon. Therefore, it is a power weapon, with a further special rule.

See the rest of my post, rinse, repeat

Jawaballs

Willful ignorance? Check.

Read Commander Dante's wargear entry on page 81. The wargear entry does NOT say, "master-crafted power weapon".

Read Commander Dante's wargear entry on page 53. The wargear entry does NOT say, "master-crafted power weapon".

The RULES ENTRY for Commander Dante's WARGEAR ENTRY says, "master-crafted power weapon" but the WARGEAR ENTRY says, "The Axe of Mortalis".

Read the rest of my post, rinse, repeat.

Willful ignorance?

Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.

I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."

It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)

It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?

I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...

It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.

In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)

Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.



Jawaballs

 jawaballs wrote:


Willful ignorance?

Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.

I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."

It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)

It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?

I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...

It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.

In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)

Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.



Jawaballs

Do you know the difference between a wargear entry and a rules entry?

"The Axe of Mortalis" is the wargear entry.

"Master-crafted power weapon" is the rules entry FOR the wargear entry.

Now read the first part of the rule that you keep quoting,

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has.

Dante is the model. His wargear says he has The Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say he has a master-crafted weapon.

I know you want to jump the gun and thus equate that because The Axe of Mortalis rules entry says it is a master-crafted power weapon, ergo, Dante's wargear says it has a power weapon with further special rules. However you need to slow down and read the rules so you do not make that false assumption.

Again, the wargear entry is The Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry for the wargear entry, The Axe of Mortalis, is master-crafted power weapon.

 jawaballs wrote:


Willful ignorance?

Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.

I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."

It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)

It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?

I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...

It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.

In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)

Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.



Jawaballs

Name: Commander Dante

Weapon: The Axe Mortalis

Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).

Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.

Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.

I treat the Axe of Mortalis as an Master-crafted Power sword.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 jawaballs wrote:


Willful ignorance?

Are we reading the same book? I could be mistaken... If I am I apologize.

I could have sworn that on page 53 of Codex Blood Angels it does refer to Dante's weapon as a master crafted power weapon. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."

It doesn't say that "The Axe Mortalis is a power weapon that behaves like a Master Crafted weapon, but really is not." (Which is what you are saying when it boils down to it.)

It's a master crafted power weapon! A power weapon with a further special rule... What is there to be ignorant about?

I don't know how it could mean some thing else when it says that the weapon is a master crafted power weapon...

It's not even like it is a RAW vs RAI sort of thing. It's pretty clear The Axe Mortalis is a PW that has the Master Crafted special rule.

In the end, I personally agree with you. I believe that yes, it should be an AP3 weapon that goes at initiative etc. But again, in reading the rules to define it's characteristics, neither of the criteria are met. (Except where in the BA codex it refers to it as a unique weapon.)

Nobody is right. Now matter how snarkalicious you make your argument.



Jawaballs

Name: Commander Dante

Weapon: The Axe Mortalis

Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).

Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.

Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.

No idea where you are getting that one from. On page 53, The Axe of Mortalis is listed under wargear with the Death Mask of Sanguinius, another listed wargear item of Commander Dante.

Here's an observation. If indeed mastercrafted special rule would make a power weapon unusual, does it mean there can not be a mastercrafted power mace or an axe with that interpretation of the rules?

masquerade81 wrote:
Here's an observation. If indeed mastercrafted special rule would make a power weapon unusual, does it mean there can not be a mastercrafted power mace or an axe with that interpretation of the rules?

Nobody said Mastercrafted makes the Axe Mortalis unusual. Its the unique "Axe Mortalis" rule for the Axe Mortalis weapon that makes the Axe Mortalis weapon an Unusual Power Weapon.

masquerade81 wrote:
Here's an observation. If indeed mastercrafted special rule would make a power weapon unusual, does it mean there can not be a mastercrafted power mace or an axe with that interpretation of the rules?

I think the best way to show you this is to give you a hypothetical scenario,

Space Marine Captain

WARGEAR:

Bolt Pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Artificer Armor
Krak Grenades
Frag Grenades

OPTIONS:

The Space Marine Captain may exchange his close combat weapon for a power weapon.............15pts
The Space Marine Captain may master-craft any of his weapons.................................10pts

Now, the model's wargear entry does NOT say that he has a power weapon with any further special rules. He does have the options to buy a power weapon and master-craft it. If he were to do so, he would buy the power weapon and THEN master-craft it. That is not the same as having the model's wargear say that he has a master-crafted power weapon with further special rules. The sequence of events in that case would be,

1. Power weapon is bought and type/rules are determined by what is on the model, lets say a power axe in this instance.
2. Master-crafting is bought and the power axe is now master-crafted.

The same would apply if the Space Marine Captain had come with a power weapon in his wargear entry as default and then exercised the option to master-craft it.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Name: Commander Dante

Weapon: The Axe Mortalis

Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).

Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.

Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.

No idea where you are getting that one from. On page 53, The Axe of Mortalis is listed under wargear with the Death Mask of Sanguinius, another listed wargear item of Commander Dante.

This comment made me notice that the page has it's own Special Rules section separate from the BRB Special Rules, which is distinctly not part of the Wargear section. This changes everything.

Types of Power Weapons requires:
a. wargear says it has a power weapon
b. that weapon has no further Special Rules

1. Dante's entry says he has The Axe Mortalis which is a power weapon. Not all power weapons are an Axe Mortalis, but all Axe Mortalis's are power weapons. So if it says I have an Axe Mortalis, and it says Axe Mortalis is a power weapon, then it says I have a power weapon.
2. There's nothing under "Special Rules" for the Axe Mortalis. No further Special Rules. As an example if Gabriel Seths's Blood Reaver were a power weapon, Whirlwind of Gore would be a "further special rule" for the Blood Reaver.

+1 for Axe Mortalis being: +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, which can be changed by changing the model.

Unusual Power Weapons require:
a. one or more unique rules.

1. Here I previously considered The Axe Mortalis entry in the Wargear section to be a unique rule. But as you have pointed out this is WARGEAR. This is not the Axe Mortalis rule defined. This is the wargear Axe Mortalis weapon defined. So The Axe Mortalis is described as having two special rules - master-crafted and it's a power weapon. Neither of these are unique.

-1 for Axe Mortalis being an Unusual Power Weapon.


It's looking like Axe Mortalis is a +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, Power Axe.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Name: Commander Dante

Weapon: The Axe Mortalis

Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis (title above the definition).

Definition of The Axe Mortalis Special Rule: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

Number of Axe Mortalis Special Rules: 1. Therefore it is a unique special rule.

Makes sense now? The Axe Mortalis can only be a Unusual Power Weapon. Like once you see it you'll xxxx bricks.

No idea where you are getting that one from. On page 53, The Axe of Mortalis is listed under wargear with the Death Mask of Sanguinius, another listed wargear item of Commander Dante.

This comment made me notice that the page has it's own Special Rules section separate from the BRB Special Rules, which is distinctly not part of the Wargear section. This changes everything.

Types of Power Weapons requires:
a. wargear says it has a power weapon
b. that weapon has no further Special Rules

1. Dante's entry says he has The Axe Mortalis which is a power weapon. Not all power weapons are an Axe Mortalis, but all Axe Mortalis's are power weapons. So if it says I have an Axe Mortalis, and it says Axe Mortalis is a power weapon, then it says I have a power weapon.
2. There's nothing under "Special Rules" for the Axe Mortalis. No further Special Rules. As an example if Gabriel Seths's Blood Reaver were a power weapon, Whirlwind of Gore would be a "further special rule" for the Blood Reaver.

+1 for Axe Mortalis being: +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, which can be changed by changing the model.

Unusual Power Weapons require:
a. one or more unique rules.

1. Here I previously considered The Axe Mortalis entry in the Wargear section to be a unique rule. But as you have pointed out this is WARGEAR. This is not the Axe Mortalis rule defined. This is the wargear Axe Mortalis weapon defined. So The Axe Mortalis is described as having two special rules - master-crafted and it's a power weapon. Neither of these are unique.

-1 for Axe Mortalis being an Unusual Power Weapon.


It's looking like Axe Mortalis is a +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, Power Axe.

Now you are going down the other path of madness....lol.

The Axe of Mortalis is the wargear entry. Master-crafted power weapon is the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis.

So we know that the only time you look to the model is if the model's wargear entry tells you that it is a power weapon with no further special rules. Well the fact that the wargear entry states The Axe of Mortalis it immediately and forever disqualifies you from ever looking to the Dante model to determine what type of weapon he has. The wargear entry clause is set and despite the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis telling you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, that does not change the wargear entry. Look to the Space Wolves codex where the Wolf Priest wargear entry says,

Crozius Arcanum (power weapon)

For an example of where the wargear entry states both a special name of the weapon and a power weapon. The wargear entry for the Axe of Mortalis does not do this, the rules entry does.

That completely erases the premise of, "+1 for Axe Mortalis being: +1S AP2 Melee Unwieldy, which can be changed by changing the model."

Onto your second point regarding the Axe of Mortalis not being an unusual power weapon,

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

The rules entry tells us that the Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon and that it is master-crafted.

Now the above quoted rule does not ask you to check across the Warhammer 40k universe to see if the Axe of Mortalis has A unique close combat rule among all other close combat rules. The rule above asks you to check if the Axe of Mortalis has ITS OWN unique close combat rule. In this case the Axe of Mortalis does indeed have ITS OWN unique close combat rule, aka, master-crafting. Hence, you treat is a an AP 3 Melee weapon that allows a reroll of one missed hit in close combat.

The Axe of Mortalis, unusual power weapon.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Now you are going down the other path of madness....lol.

The Axe of Mortalis is the wargear entry. Master-crafted power weapon is the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis.

So we know that the only time you look to the model is if the model's wargear entry tells you that it is a power weapon with no further special rules. Well the fact that the wargear entry states The Axe of Mortalis it immediately and forever disqualifies you from ever looking to the Dante model to determine what type of weapon he has. The wargear entry clause is set and despite the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis telling you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, that does not change the wargear entry.

Now hold on here. P. 53 of the Codex, I see a section below WARGEAR where it shows you the SPECIAL RULES for Dante. There is no mention of Axe Mortalis anywhere here. While the Axe Mortalis has master-crafted, that Special Rule is part of description of Axe Mortalis. It's not a "further" Special Rule, its the only special rule. Whirlwind of Gore mentions Blood Reaver, so it's a "further special rule" for Blood Reaver. Axe Mortalis has it's description and no more.

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

The rules entry tells us that the Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon and that it is master-crafted.

Now the above quoted rule does not ask you to check across the Warhammer 40k universe to see if the Axe of Mortalis has A unique close combat rule among all other close combat rules. The rule above asks you to check if the Axe of Mortalis has ITS OWN unique close combat rule. In this case the Axe of Mortalis does indeed have ITS OWN unique close combat rule, aka, master-crafting. Hence, you treat is a an AP 3 Melee weapon that allows a reroll of one missed hit in close combat.

The Axe of Mortalis, unusual power weapon.

The Axe Mortalis has it's own close combat rule, but "master-crafted power weapon" doesn't make it unique. I can certainly have more than one weapon in my army with "master-crafted", "plain power weapon", and "master-crafted power weapon".

Own rule? Yes.
Unique? No way.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Now you are going down the other path of madness....lol.

The Axe of Mortalis is the wargear entry. Master-crafted power weapon is the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis.

So we know that the only time you look to the model is if the model's wargear entry tells you that it is a power weapon with no further special rules. Well the fact that the wargear entry states The Axe of Mortalis it immediately and forever disqualifies you from ever looking to the Dante model to determine what type of weapon he has. The wargear entry clause is set and despite the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis telling you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, that does not change the wargear entry.

Now hold on here. P. 53 of the Codex, I see a section below WARGEAR where it shows you the SPECIAL RULES for Dante. There is no mention of Axe Mortalis anywhere here. While the Axe Mortalis has master-crafted, that Special Rule is part of description of Axe Mortalis. It's not a "further" Special Rule, its the only special rule. Whirlwind of Gore mentions Blood Reaver, so it's a "further special rule" for Blood Reaver. Axe Mortalis has it's description and no more.

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

The rules entry tells us that the Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon and that it is master-crafted.

Now the above quoted rule does not ask you to check across the Warhammer 40k universe to see if the Axe of Mortalis has A unique close combat rule among all other close combat rules. The rule above asks you to check if the Axe of Mortalis has ITS OWN unique close combat rule. In this case the Axe of Mortalis does indeed have ITS OWN unique close combat rule, aka, master-crafting. Hence, you treat is a an AP 3 Melee weapon that allows a reroll of one missed hit in close combat.

The Axe of Mortalis, unusual power weapon.

The Axe Mortalis has it's own close combat rule, but "master-crafted power weapon" doesn't make it unique. I can certainly have more than one weapon in my army with "master-crafted", "plain power weapon", and "master-crafted power weapon".

Own rule? Yes.
Unique? No way.

The point is that the wargear entry for Dante does not say power weapon, it says The Axe of Mortalis. Hence you never look at Dante to determine the rules and type of the Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry tells you that the Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon, however the rule does not say,

If a models wargear rules entry says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has......

You look at the wargear entry and it says, The Axe of Mortalis.

As for the second part, you are comparing, "master-crafted power weapon" to all weapons of the Warhammer 40k universe.

The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon with its own unique rule in close combat. It is not unique to the Warhammer 40k universe, but it is unique to the power weapon called, The Axe of Mortalis. That is what the vernacular of the rule uses when it states,

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

The point is that the wargear entry for Dante does not say power weapon, it says The Axe of Mortalis. Hence you never look at Dante to determine the rules and type of the Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry tells you that the Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon, however the rule does not say,

But it does say in the Wargear Section says that Axe Mortalis is a power weapon. Wargear is not just the bolded lines up until the "Iron Halo (see page 40)". The models Wargear is that entire section up to the line that says "Special Rules:". In the wargear section on page 53 it says "power weapon". So that satisfies the requirement: "the models wargear says it has a power weapon".

If a models wargear rules entry says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has......

The wargear section shows the rules for the weapon, but after it's description (master-crafted and power weapon) it has no further special rules. I would expect to find "further special rules" after the line that says "Special Rules" on p. 53. This would be additional special rules for the weapon.

I am definitely making a distinction between "Special Rules for the weapon" and "further Special Rules for the weapon". It seems picky to me to say it, but that word "further" is like "additional" or "more" which would be mean +1 more place to find Special Rules for the weapon.

You look at the wargear entry and it says, The Axe of Mortalis.

As for the second part, you are comparing, "master-crafted power weapon" to all weapons of the Warhammer 40k universe.

The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon with its own unique rule in close combat. It is not unique to the Warhammer 40k universe, but it is unique to the power weapon called, The Axe of Mortalis. That is what the vernacular of the rule uses when it states,

This doesn't make sense to me. Unique means one of a kind. Of course every weapon has a unique definition to itself.
It would be like saying I have a box of number 2 pencils and each has an eraser that is unique to itself because each only has 1 eraser. More likely the word unique has a purpose in the sentence, meaning the weapon has a rule describing a special game mechanic that isn't shared by any other weapon in the game. Master crafted is not unique.

Combined these two make Dantes axe a Power Axe, not Unusual.

Dave, not saying I disagree, but I'm curious. What if it is a two-handed, mastercrafted power weapon?

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

The point is that the wargear entry for Dante does not say power weapon, it says The Axe of Mortalis. Hence you never look at Dante to determine the rules and type of the Axe of Mortalis. The rules entry tells you that the Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon, however the rule does not say,

But it does say in the Wargear Section says that Axe Mortalis is a power weapon. Wargear is not just the bolded lines up until the "Iron Halo (see page 40)". The models Wargear is that entire section up to the line that says "Special Rules:". In the wargear section on page 53 it says "power weapon". So that satisfies the requirement: "the models wargear says it has a power weapon".

If a models wargear rules entry says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has......

The wargear section shows the rules for the weapon, but after it's description (master-crafted and power weapon) it has no further special rules. I would expect to find "further special rules" after the line that says "Special Rules" on p. 53. This would be additional special rules for the weapon.

I am definitely making a distinction between "Special Rules for the weapon" and "further Special Rules for the weapon". It seems picky to me to say it, but that word "further" is like "additional" or "more" which would be mean +1 more place to find Special Rules for the weapon.

You look at the wargear entry and it says, The Axe of Mortalis.

As for the second part, you are comparing, "master-crafted power weapon" to all weapons of the Warhammer 40k universe.

The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon with its own unique rule in close combat. It is not unique to the Warhammer 40k universe, but it is unique to the power weapon called, The Axe of Mortalis. That is what the vernacular of the rule uses when it states,

This doesn't make sense to me. Unique means one of a kind. Of course every weapon has a unique definition to itself.
It would be like saying I have a box of number 2 pencils and each has an eraser that is unique to itself because each only has 1 eraser. More likely the word unique has a purpose in the sentence, meaning the weapon has a rule describing a special game mechanic that isn't shared by any other weapon in the game. Master crafted is not unique.

Combined these two make Dantes axe a Power Axe, not Unusual.

You are speeding reading the section and jumping to the conclusion that the rules for the Axe of Mortalis is the wargear of the model.

I showed you a prime example in the Space Wolves codex with the Wolf Priest Crozius Arcanum of what you are trying to equate to the Axe of Mortalis. Go look at that entry and you will see where a wargear entry not only gives you a specialized name (Crozius Arcanum) but then says power weapon.

The wargear entry for both the army list entry and on page 53 both state he has the Axe of Mortalis. The rules for the Axe of Mortalis then tells you that it is a master-crafted power weapon. You do not go back and then retcon the wargear entry to say that the model has a power weapon.

The problem with your pencil analogy is that you are taking a box of the same pencils. If it is a box of Acme pencils, then yes, each eraser is not unique to each pencil as they are the same pencil. However if I were to place a Bic pencil in that box, the the eraser on the Bic is unique to the Bic pencil. Does it do the same thing as all the Acme pencisl? Yes. However that eraser is unique to the Bic pencil because it is on a Bic pencil.

My problem with the whole matter at the moment is a Glaive Encarmine. This weapon shares everything, in common with The Axe Mortalis. It's "named" and it's got a special rule (or two), the only exception is that more than one model and unit can carry them. Nothing unique, unusual, about it, so you look at the model, correct? And said model may be changed, correct?

Everything that applies to "the axe" have to apply to a glaive as well and vice versa.

Please GW, can we have an FAQ? It didn't come out with Dark Vengeance...

Look I've been reading this absolutely amazed at that twisting of this rule. Look when taking a special character you generally buy the model who is what..... Modeled a specific way, in Dante's case it's a axe. So it's a axe no changing it to a sword. Now the axe of mortalis as I see it can be seen in both ways as unique and as a PW, but here's the deal it has the name axe of mortalis, it didn't have a upgrade section in e listing to add master crafted to its profile making it unique to all other power axes since MC is coming standard. It's a axe that should have additional rules for ap2 and +1 str but it doesn't. It is a unusual power weapon as it has a MC upgrade at no additional cost. As to modeling him with a sword....... Then your not using Dante, unless he's a made up character for your specialized army that has a sword with the same rules ( being that no bonuses are given through that change) model him how you want but no additional rules or changes because of what weapon he's holding will change that, simple don't call him Dante if he has a sword and still use the rules. The axe debate really doesn't matter it is a unique weapon, anyone arguing against is trying to rules lawyer the game. If you want a counts as model fine do it then but no changes to the weapon profile will occur due to being there is only one axe of mortalis, now if you make a sword that does the same so be it rules haven't been changed and he is a different character. If I were to do what you want to do that means that I could model abbadon with a axe instead of his sword and use those rules to get away with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as far as the glove issue goes for you dandruff, grey knights have weapons like that and are considered unique weapons.

Page 45 – Astorath the Grim, The Executioner’s Axe.
Replace the first sentence with the following profile:
Range S AP Type -
- 6 2 Melee, Two-handed,
Unwieldy

Page 53 – Commander Dante, The Axe Mortalis.
Replace the entry with the “The Axe Mortalis is a power axe
with the Master-crafted special rule.”

Q: Are Glaive Encarmines treated as ‘unusual power weapons’ (and
therefore AP 3), or do they follow the rules for power axes/swords as
defined by the type of weapon the model is carrying? (p50)
A: Glaive Encarmines follow the rules as described in the Types
of Power Weapon section on page 61 of the Warhammer 40,000
rulebook, but also have the Master-crafted and Two-handed
special rules. They would therefore have the following profiles.
Range S AP Type
Glaive Encarmine - User 3 Melee,
(Sword) Master-crafted,
Two-handed.
Range S AP Type
Glaive Encarmine - +1 2 Melee,
(Axe) Master-crafted,
Two-handed,
Unwieldy.

Oddily enough Relic Blades are now +2 Str AP3 whatever they look like.

So GW did take the path of 'we maintain the illusion of the stock models' and not the path of 'you can choose to convert whatever you wish' with most units where it was in question.

Harlequins have swords now and no more RunePriest Axe Crozarius.

It does appear like they got almost all the weapons which have been 'unusual' debated. They also got all the weapons with very defined 'stock' weapons. So anyone who survived the cut, choose your powerweapons!

That didn't so much as clarify the Axe of Mortalis but flat out errated it.

Oh well, not one of my characters that gets a wasted init 6.

They also fixed Glaive Encarmines. They're now Axes or Swords that are also Master Crafted and Two Handed.

It looked like an axe, GW said it was an axe, nuff said.

Oh my god its like Njal in a rhino all over again, you can have a fun game and use it as a power axe or you can make the world think that you are a d*** and say that 'just because its description and name specificaly states that it is an axe doesn't make it an axe'.

They changed the old Howling Banshee Exarch with an axe to a stylized Executioner.

nkelsch wrote:
Harlequins have swords now and no more WolfPriest Axe Crozarius.

I always thought it was kind of bogus to call your crozius a sword / axe / whatever.

It does appear like they got almost all the weapons which have been 'unusual' debated. They also got all the weapons with very defined 'stock' weapons. So anyone who survived the cut, choose your powerweapons!

I haven't looked yet, but did they cover the DCA?

Actually it's Howling Banshees that have power swords.

Didn't see anything on DCA yet, so I'm assuming they are still 2 Power Weapons.

They also did not fix any of the Eldar CCW except for the Fire Axe. So no idea if Triskele are AP2 in CC as suggested by their ranged profile, or AP3 due to being a unique weapon.

I am glad they did not touch my Singing Spears (yet).

No mention of DCAs anywhere. Schenanigins ensue...

 Grey Templar wrote:
No mention of DCAs anywhere. Schenanigins ensue...

DCA are just power weapons with no further special rules... which means it is implied we may choose. The real issues were weapons with 'further special rules' which people deemed not 'unique CC rules'.

I believe all of those got addressed. Every master-crafted Power weapon got explicit types applied which means the type is defined so there is no need to 'look at the model' which means the 'further special rules' doesn't limit it.

So smash your DCA with a hammer and model them up. I feel like this was a comprehensive enough net that caught everything they wished to catch.