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Azrell wrote:
You cant really argue that dante has to be equipped with an power axe because the word "axe" only appears in the name of the weapon and in the rule/description in his forces entry. Being that no other weapon has that name or the rule/description "the axe mortalis" would mean that weapon is unique and therefore ap3 anyway.

To avoid confusion i just modeled my dante with a sword. If its supposed to be unique than its ap3 anyway and if its just a power weapon than you look to the model for its "type", and a sword is ap.3.

I suspect the sang guards weapons will eventually be FAQd to ap3 but if people want to give me axes im fine with it for now.

Again, it only has one USR. This does NOT make it a "unique" power weapon as per "unique" power weapon rules. The only way this axe is unique, is Danté carries it, called it that, and there are no others named the same in the 40k universe. That's it. This would apply to the Sanguinary Guard as well. If they are modeled with an axe, they have an axe, if they have a sword, then sword. Considering Glaive Encarmine are carried by more than one unit, and do not have unique rules, they are hardly "unique".

Azrell wrote:

but what if the word unique was intentionally used by the person that wrote the codex... who happens to be in the big boy credits for the BRB as well.

Then that person has the resources to clarify to the masses what his intentions are. He has not done so.

Happyjew wrote:Good to know the name of the item tells all. So we now know that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons...

However it does tell us that it is a flamer, so your example both proves and disproves your point

Unique weapon =/= unique rules.

A weapon can be unique as in only one is allowed, but the definition of unique in the BRB applies to its rules not to its rarity.

As for this particular question, it's currently a grey area and can be successfully argued either way.

My personal opinion is why wouldn't the master of a primogenitor chapter have an entire armoury to choose from? He may traditionally wield an axe, but who's going to tell him no if he wants a change? It also makes sense that any weapon he does use is of the finest quality. I do understand others opinions, but you'd have no issue against me if he had a sword.

 Ghaz wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Good to know the name of the item tells all. So we now know that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons...

However it does tell us that it is a flamer, so your example both proves and disproves your point

Wow. Where do I begin with that?

Instead of making fun of you I'm just going to say that no one would debate that a heavy flamer is a flamer. Please know the focus of the topic at hand and not think you're clever by deliberately misinterpreting the obvious. A heavy flamer is an assault weapon according to the rules, not a "heavy weapon" as the name would state.

Actually, one could argue before 6th ed it was not in fact a "Flamer", however, they added it to the "Flamer Weapons" so that part at least is no longer debatable.

Can my Cryptek's Eldritch Lances have the 'Lance' rule?

dufus0001 wrote:

Azrell wrote:
You cant really argue that dante has to be equipped with an power axe because the word "axe" only appears in the name of the weapon and in the rule/description in his forces entry. Being that no other weapon has that name or the rule/description "the axe mortalis" would mean that weapon is unique and therefore ap3 anyway.

To avoid confusion i just modeled my dante with a sword. If its supposed to be unique than its ap3 anyway and if its just a power weapon than you look to the model for its "type", and a sword is ap.3.

I suspect the sang guards weapons will eventually be FAQd to ap3 but if people want to give me axes im fine with it for now.

Again, it only has one USR. This does NOT make it a "unique" power weapon as per "unique" power weapon rules

In your interpretation... An interpretation which is not supported by any rules as there is no clear definition of what counts as a 'unique special rule' is. People have seemed to claim USRs are not unique special rules... but some claim any rule beyond power weapon is a unique rule. I see no clear line defined either way and this is where we have sketchy people trying to give special weapons all sorts of crazy weapon combos. No where have I seen anything win writing that defines "UNIQUE" as "anything but a USR".

Which is why we apparently need more FAQs.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Can my Cryptek's Eldritch Lances have the 'Lance' rule?

Can you just start adding USR's because it has it in the name? No, sir. If that's the case, my Death Company cause instant death. No one in their right mind would let that fly. To be honest, I don't see why they didn't make them the lance USR and up the points cost on it a little. Wouldn't really change much about it other than making it awesome.

nkelsch wrote:

In your interpretation... An interpretation which is not supported by any rules as there is no clear definition of what counts as a 'unique special rule' is. People have seemed to claim USRs are not unique special rules... but some claim any rule beyond power weapon is a unique rule. I see no clear line defined either way and this is where we have sketchy people trying to give special weapons all sorts of crazy weapon combos. No where have I seen anything in writing that defines "UNIQUE" as "anything but a USR".

Which is why we apparently need more FAQs.

If a regular power weapon can have added USR's because of the model, then named weapons with just USR's fall under the same category.

Can we just look at the wording for a second? P.61 BRB "Unusual Power Weapons: Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the addional rules and characteristics presented in the entry."

I believe they call them Universal Special Rules for a reason. Things that are universal are not unique.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I completely agree, we need an FAQ and we need it yesterday.

I see sarcasm (even with the icon) is lost on some people.

My sarcasm detector only runs on inflection. It is very hard to hear it in text or hear the way you others want it to be heard in my head. Icons do not sarcasm, make.

dufus0001 wrote:
Can we just look at the wording for a second? P.61 BRB "Unusual Power Weapons: Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the addional rules and characteristics presented in the entry."

I believe they call them Universal Special Rules for a reason. Things that are universal are not unique.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I completely agree, we need an FAQ and we need it yesterday.

While totally agree with the intent of this post, the term USR is a 5th edition term that hasn't made the jump. So while special, the rules are no longer defined as universal.

Given this information I still stand by my post. Even though it doesn't say "universal" anymore, they are rules that are applied to many different units and are therefore, not unique rules.

This seems like a similar arguement to when people wanted to play Lychguards "Hyperphase Swords" as power axes.

It says it's an axe...in the name. Surely it's an Axe.

Striking Scorpions have "scorpion" in their name. Surely they are scorpions.

 Praxiss wrote:

It says it's an axe...in the name. Surely it's an Axe.

So you fall into the camp of people that say my custom Fleshtearers version of Dante with the massive chainsword is an illegal model and can not be used for play?

It sounds like he is in the camp of if you put an agonizer on a chaos space marine and want to use it as a mace or lance, he wouldn't play with you. Or if your space wolves are pre-new models and you have them on whf wolves, he wouldn't play with you. Or if your ork looted wagon was a rhino, or if your voidraven was made of two razorwings, or if your renegade ig army was made of whf chaos marauders or skaven for looks, or any counts as army would be a no no for this camp.

So if you want to make a ft chaptermaster that uses the rules of Dante, I don't see why not. And after reading the rules about power weapons and...well almost all the rules, they have no rules on what you may or may not use. Heck, the only WYSIWYG that is in the book is for power weapons.

dufus0001 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.

It does say it's unique, but given the rules for a "unique" weapon, it does NOT qualify as one. Same word used two different ways.

Codex > BRB

It sounds like you are putting words in someone's mouth there lostinthewarp.

I think saying this model counts as Dante is fine. HOWEVER, the axe mortalis is an axe. I wish to god that it was a unusual power weapon so I can field a dante leafblower but until that question is settled it counts as a power axe or an unusual power weapon.
If you clip off the axe and put a sword in it's place and now tell me it's dante but with a sword that is not cool. If it was a tournament you would so be TFG. In a friendly game, I would ask for a roll off but abusing counts as and the power weapon rules to get a character with a different weapon is taking the piss.

I was overblowing it, just a bit to show that its ok to have fun with the hobby as well as have a playable army. I don't agree with the it has to stay an axe, seeing as if that was the case, they would or will errata it to say power axe. But I am willing to either roll off or fold to it. I have two of him, one with an axe, one with a sword. For just that reason. Non named pws tho, I would always give a pass on. Who's to say Huron Blackheart doesn't just grab the first pw from the spacehulk he is on before his assault on a world?

I would not roll off for the status of the weapon. The codex makes it quite clear its a unique weapon.

After looking at the codex and thinking. You can't change Dantes axe, but you can have your own character that uses Dantes rules so the ft army would be totally legal. Per creating your own chapter in the codex.

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:

It says it's an axe...in the name. Surely it's an Axe.

So you fall into the camp of people that say my custom Fleshtearers version of Dante with the massive chainsword is an illegal model and can not be used for play?

Not at all.

You can give your model a giant flower for all i care, as long as it sticks to the unit entry for the models your havign it coutn as.

Example - we play a game and i plonk a Chaos Lord model on the table and "this is my Counts as Abaddon, but instead of the weapons Abaddon normally has, this guy has an Ap1 relic blade, that's ok right?" - no, it's not. If it a count as Abaddon then it uses the rules for Abaddon, including the weapons.

So if your Fleshtearer guy with a massive chainsword is a counts-as Dante, then you have to user the rules for Dante, including the fact that the unit entry for Dante says he has an axe.

I would be on your side if it was something lilke, for example, Chaos terminators - the models all come with maces and axes , but heir entry just says "power weapon" - which the rulebook says are AP3. if you wanted to play WYSIWYG and give them the items and rules for maces, mauls etc then i would be happy with that.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I
If you clip off the axe and put a sword in it's place and now tell me it's dante but with a sword that is not cool. If it was a tournament you would so be TFG.

 Praxiss wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:

It says it's an axe...in the name. Surely it's an Axe.

So you fall into the camp of people that say my custom Fleshtearers version of Dante with the massive chainsword is an illegal model and can not be used for play?

Not at all.

You can give your model a giant flower for all i care, as long as it sticks to the unit entry for the models your havign it coutn as.

Example - we play a game and i plonk a Chaos Lord model on the table and "this is my Counts as Abaddon, but instead of the weapons Abaddon normally has, this guy has an Ap1 relic blade, that's ok right?" - no, it's not. If it a count as Abaddon then it uses the rules for Abaddon, including the weapons.

So if your Fleshtearer guy with a massive chainsword is a counts-as Dante, then you have to user the rules for Dante, including the fact that the unit entry for Dante says he has an axe.

I would be on your side if it was something lilke, for example, Chaos terminators - the models all come with maces and axes , but heir entry just says "power weapon" - which the rulebook says are AP3. if you wanted to play WYSIWYG and give them the items and rules for maces, mauls etc then i would be happy with that.

Acctually the entry for Dante says he has a master crafted power weapon. it says this multiple time

So I would be TFG even though my sword wielding Dante was made last edition when a PW was just a PW?

Because last edition there was no difference between a power sword and a power axe - it made conversions a lot simpler.

If you model Dante with a sword rather than his Axe - that coudl be seen as modelling for advantage.

From now on kits are going to have to have different optiosn of power weapons available, and they will all need to be listed separatley in the units codex entry.

Exactly. It only counts as a power weapon. The book says you can use either an Ax, Sword, Maul. So you can model Dante with a sword to gain and it is legal.

The weapon is named an ax, but Name does not equal rules. See heavy Flamer, and Assault Cannon as proof.

Personally I say it is a unique power weapon, but that is besides the point of this topic.

Bishop99 wrote:

Acctually the entry for Dante says he has a master crafted power weapon. it says this multiple time

And you look at the model to see which kind of power weapon he has... Just like Lychguard. Except if having a special rule makes it unique or not which is also undefined. So some will think he must have an axe, others will think it is an axe but the mastercrafted rule makes it a unique power weapon. others will say it is a NAMED weapon to mean it is a unique special weapon.

"doesn't say I can't" has never worked in a permissive ruleset. And there is no valid RAW to determine it one particular way or not.

Hence why GW needs to FAQ things... they often think it is painfully clear to the studio designers what they intended and they can't figure out why we don't understand and need a FAQ. Many times their INTENT (and FAQ result) is so far off what we all thought it was it is absurd. But that is how it is.

dufus0001 wrote:
Can we just look at the wording for a second? P.61 BRB "Unusual Power Weapons: Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the addional rules and characteristics presented in the entry."

I believe they call them Universal Special Rules for a reason. Things that are universal are not unique.

Whether a USR is unique or not isnt the question. The question is "Do all power weapons have this USR?" If the answer is no, then that weapon with the USR is unique among power weapons. So in this case, "Are all power-weapons mastercrafted?" No. Then the Axe would be a UPW, since it has a rule that affects close combat that not all other Power weapons have.

At what point does it say that Dante has an axe as a rule. It states he has a mc pw. At no point other than name does it have a RULE defining it as an axe. The rules for the named weapon are power weapon, see rule book & master crafted, se rule book.At no point is the name of the weapon defined.

The name of the weapon is fluff, not rules.
Fluff=/= rules and we all know this.