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You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.

Furthermore all this crying over it being an axe doesn't make sense, +1 strength and such means when he charges he should be str 6, and who cares if he goes last, he's got 2+ armor. Quit yer $itching.

lostinthewarp wrote:
At what point does it say that Dante has an axe as a rule.

When it says it is master crafted. That is a special rule. UNQIUE is undefined int he rulebook and no ability to distinguish what counts as a Unique special rule or just a regular special rule for purposes of determining what makes a unique power weapon.

It is perfectly possible that USRs are not unique and +2 STR is unique, but that distinction or what counts as what simply doesn't exist in the rulebook.

Unusual power weapons have unique cc rules unto themselves per pg 61, this is not.
Example of what would be is gorechild, diresword, agonizer, etc.
At no point is the axe part a rule tho.

 pdawg517 wrote:
So I would be TFG even though my sword wielding Dante was made last edition when a PW was just a PW?

No you wouldn't. Some people are trying to gimp BA... that is all it is.

 juraigamer wrote:
You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.

Furthermore all this crying over it being an axe doesn't make sense, +1 strength and such means when he charges he should be str 6, and who cares if he goes last, he's got 2+ armor. Quit yer $itching.

And where is the Axe Mortalis spelled out other than it's name? Its name is fluff and can be changed as fluff is not rules. My FT counts as Dante (Cain) has a diffrent weapon modeled. I didn't even start with the Dante model as the base (he was a jump pack chaplin).

I personaly hope that they FAQ as a UPW as then it can look like whatever you want it to look like and I can play with him again. If it not then I have to WYSISYG and I guess it would have to be a power sword.

The reason I care is that if it has to be an axe then I can't use him in tournament play as he would not be WYSIWYG. That means the time, effort and money I put into the model (and my assualt squad I mentioned before) is just flushed down the drain becasue I can't play them in tournaments (and that was the whole reason I made this particular army).

I don't care if he hits last or hits first or powergaming the power weapon rules. I just want to play with my toy army men.

 juraigamer wrote:
You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.
.

In the rules, not fluff, where is it spelled out that it is an ax? The rules says it is a Master Crafted Power Weapon.

If you look at the rules for Power Weapons, it says it can be an Ax, Sword, Maul,...

jbunny wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
You can't remodel a special characters weapon when it's spelled out.
.

In the rules, not fluff, where is it spelled out that it is an ax? The rules says it is a Master Crafted Power Weapon.

If you look at the rules for Power Weapons, it says it can be an Ax, Sword, Maul,...

And because it is master crafted, it is a power weapon with a unique special rule which means it is a unique power weapon... Nothing defines what counts as a 'unique' special rule... so a power weapon with any special rule is a unique power weapon. Master Crafted is a special rule.

nkelsch wrote:

And because it is master crafted, it is a power weapon with a unique special rule which means it is a unique power weapon... Nothing defines what counts as a 'unique' special rule... so a power weapon with any special rule is a unique power weapon. Master Crafted is a special rule.

Not being snarky, honest question.

Would that mean that anyone that buys the Master Crafted power weapons out of a codex as a piece of wargear doesn't have to worry about what wepon type they are modeled with? That would make them all be UPW and it woudn't matter what the model looked like then.

I will not disagree with you Nkelsh. However, I do not wish to argue with others this point anymore. So now, I will concede that point and move on to this argument.

If they don't want it to be 'unique' - a term undefined, then they must admit it is a power weapon, and therefor can be changed.

The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.

Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.

Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.

 Gloomfang wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
And because it is master crafted, it is a power weapon with a unique special rule which means it is a unique power weapon... Nothing defines what counts as a 'unique' special rule... so a power weapon with any special rule is a unique power weapon. Master Crafted is a special rule.

Not being snarky, honest question.

Would that mean that anyone that buys the Master Crafted power weapons out of a codex as a piece of wargear doesn't have to worry about what wepon type they are modeled with? That would make them all be UPW and it woudn't matter what the model looked like then.

One interpretation, yes. All Mastercrafted Power weapons are by default 'unique' because it is a power weapon with a special rule and how 'unique' the rule is isn't defined.

Not saying it is right, just saying there is no way to show it is wrong. Which is why I recommend events FAQ it for their events and people discuss pre-game how they wish to play it.

 juraigamer wrote:
The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.

Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.

Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.

Just because you think it is better does not make it so.

Also GW encourages conversions. GW has determined that the different rules for a Power Sword, Power Ax, Power Maul, Power Lance are all equal, and so changing them out is allowed. If they are equal then you are not MFA.

If the Ax is so much better, then what is the problem with someone gimping their own unit?????

The rules do not bother to explain what "special" means either, or even "rule" for that matter; regardless I have a hard time reading "Universal" rules as being "Unique"

 kirsanth wrote:
The rules do not bother to explain what "special" means either, or even "rule" for that matter; regardless I have a hard time reading "Universal" rules as being "Unique"

Exactly.

I do not read "Universal" rules as being "Unique", since more than one weapon can be Master Crafted.

I view unique as something like Astorath the Grimm's "The Executioners Axe" which has a unique rule about always striking at Str 6 and making the enemy re-roll successful invuln saves.

His "Axe" is truly a unique weapon, as there is no single weapon in the game that has those exact combined abilities.

Changing Dantes weapon's not MFA as all the various types of power weapon are, at least in GWs eyes, balanced against one another (otherwise they would alter points values) what you gain in one area (striking at I) you lose in another (reduced AP and strength)

People need to get off the train of thought that certain types are better. They are not. All types are better under different circumstances and against different opponents.

Also can people please acknowledge that RAW a unique weapon is not an unusual PW by definition. A PW is deemed unique if its RULES are unique, not if the weapon itself is. The definition of what constitutes a unique rule is currently open to interpretation and cannot be answered without an FAQ.

Personally I believe that as it is currently written a fancy name is not enough to deem a weapon unique, nor, although it's counterintuitive, can it specify a weapon type. Neither is a centrally defined special rule. A PW is only unique if it has a game effect that is explained in it's entry and nowhere else.

jbunny wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.

Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.

Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.

Just because you think it is better does not make it so.

As stated, it's not what I "Think" but what I "Know"

There is no discussion, it's just *crying* I want to swing at int 5-6!

Mastercrafted doesn't make a weapon unusual, while it is a special rule it is also a universal rule. A special rule is "Always strikes at strength 6" or " Gains +d6 attacks"

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Codex > BRB

Yeah, I read it the first time you said it. While the codex does say it's unique (which is fluffy), it also says it's a master-crafted power weapon and as such, follows the power weapon rules because the master-crafted rule is not unique.

So the codex says both.

If master-crafted is a unique rule, so are unwieldy and concussive. That makes all power axes and mauls are unusual weapons and AP3.

At the moment you absolutely can change the weapon. It is just a power weapon. However, I'm pretty sure this will be FAQed away once they get around to it. Special characters have always had fixed gear.

dufus0001 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

Codex > BRB

Yeah, I read it the first time you said it. While the codex does say it's unique (which is fluffy ), it also says it's a master-crafted power weapon and as such, follows the power weapon rules because the master-crafted rule is not unique.

So the codex says both.

If master-crafted is a unique rule, so are unwieldy and concussive. That makes all power axes and mauls are unusual weapons and AP3.

It is not fluff. It is a rule.

 juraigamer wrote:

jbunny wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
The weapon is a power weapon with the master crafted rule. Master crafted does not make a weapon any different than other weapons.

Since it's only listed as a power weapon, we look at the model, and see it's holding an axe. Therefore we apply the power axe profile to the model. Then we proceed to quit whining about it.

Removing the models axe for a sword is MFA, and won't get you far. Dante having an axe is better anyway, for the reasons listed already.

Just because you think it is better does not make it so.

As stated, it's not what I "Think" but what I "Know"

There is no discussion, it's just *crying* I want to swing at int 5-6!

Mastercrafted doesn't make a weapon unusual, while it is a special rule it is also a universal rule. A special rule is "Always strikes at strength 6" or " Gains +d6 attacks"

You seem to be the only one crying. Everyone else is having a discussion, and you are borderline name calling. I also like how you completely ignore everything else in my post. Now, I am not arguing that his weapon is a unique weapon. I am saying you are allowed to change from an ax to a sword.

But there are plenty of times when going first is better than +1 St and Int1. And there are just as many times when going last but at AP1 and +1St is better. hence why they are equal.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
The rules do not bother to explain what "special" means either, or even "rule" for that matter; regardless I have a hard time reading "Universal" rules as being "Unique"

Exactly.

I do not read "Universal" rules as being "Unique", since more than one weapon can be Master Crafted.

I view unique as something like Astorath the Grimm's "The Executioners Axe" which has a uniqu rule about always striking at Str 6 and making the enemy re-roll successful invuln saves.

His "Axe" is truly a unique weapon, as there is no single weapon in the game that has those exact combined abilities.

So what if there are other weapons who share abilities? Does that mean that weapon is no longer unique? Multiple different weapons have +2 Strength so does that mean any weapon with 2+ strength is not unique anymore? When you boil it down, we may find almost nothing counts as unique by that definition.

I feel that Unique = "any special rule that is not a USR" is a perfectly reasonable line to draw... the rulebook doesn't draw that line at the moment and requires a discussion, event FAQ or Rule Judge ruling for it to function until a GW FAQ exists.

Adn that doesn't necessarily solve if every power weapon is any power weapon because that also has no actual rule to support it, just implied choice based upon opponent's consent. So you may get a Powermaul sarge or an axe DCA... but many people may stop agreeing when static special characters are being customized against the stock model.

"it doesn't say I can't!" isn't a rule in a permissive ruleset. Having a special character model with an axe and a weapon called an axe saying you have the unwritten freedom to convert to give him a Maul is farther than some people can bend and it by no means makes them unreasonable because there is ZERO RAW at this point.

Unusual Power Weapon?

1. It's got a name. Not all power weapons are "Axe Mortalis".
2. The formatting of the Codex implies the rules are special rules. The Axe Mortalis rule is formatted just like other weapons that would be considered unique like Haeven's Teeth, Glaive Encarmine and Whirlwind of Gore.
3. The actual rule for it is "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
While true that "master crafted" is a USR and "power weapons" is a USR and these rules are common, not all master crafted weapons are power weapons and vice verse.
4. Generic weapons are listed in wargear. The AM has it's own entry on the page.
5. It's unique because no other weapon in the game has the "Axe Mortalis" rule. Axe Mortalis is the name of the weapon and the rule for it.

If you have the Codex in front of you it's pretty clear: S4 AP3 striking at dante's initiative with master crafted.

If that doesn't work at least he has Hit and Run

Dozer Blades wrote:It is not fluff. It is a rule.

The name of the weapon: The Axe Mortalis. This is fluff.
How it helps in game: It is a Master Crafted power weapon. This is a rule.

Do power weapons normally come with Master Crafted? No. Is the Master Crafted rule shared by any other weapons? Yes. Does that make it a unique rule? No.

If being Master Crafted is enough to be considered an unusual weapon, so is Two-Handed.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Unusual Power Weapon?

1. It's got a name. Not all power weapons are "Axe Mortalis".
2. The formatting of the Codex implies the rules are special rules. The Axe Mortalis rule is formatted just like other weapons that would be considered unique like Haeven's Teeth, Glaive Encarmine and Whirlwind of Gore.
3. The actual rule for it is "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."
While true that "master crafted" is a USR and "power weapons" is a USR and these rules are common, not all master crafted weapons are power weapons and vice verse.
4. Generic weapons are listed in wargear. The AM has it's own entry on the page.
5. It's unique because no other weapon in the game has the "Axe Mortalis" rule. Axe Mortalis is the name of the weapon and the rule for it.

If you have the Codex in front of you it's pretty clear: S4 AP3 striking at dante's initiative with master crafted.

If that doesn't work at least he has Hit and Run

I am totally fine if it is an unusual power weapon, and follow such rules, but I have yet to be convinced or be shown any clear evidence (some have provided very very good but not good enough... yet. )

Glaive Encarmine cannot be unique. Both the Sanguinary Guard and The Sanguinor carry them. Being Master Crafted does nothing to change the wysiwyg of the model.




Unique =/= Unusual. Let's all try to use the proper terminology as per the BRB.




Someone please say something about whether or not concussive and unwieldy are unique rules or not.

dufus0001 wrote:

I am totally fine if it is an unusual power weapon, and follow such rules, but I have yet to be convinced or be shown any clear evidence (some have provided very very good but not good enough... yet. )

Glaive Encarmine cannot be unique. Both the Sanguinary Guard and Mephiston carry them. Being Master Crafted does nothing to change the wysiwyg of the model.

Unique =/= Unusual. Let's all try to use the proper terminology as per the BRB.

Someone please say something about whether or not concussive and unwieldy are unique rules or not.

Ahh, so true. I hadn't though of the fact that the Glaive is given to more than 1 entry in the Codex. The problem is their using the word unique. Axe Mortalis I can maintain is unique and since the Glaive and others are written the same way with their own special rule, I'd say the RAI is to treat any of these ones with special rules sections in the Codex as "Unique".

However unique does not quite mean that. RAW the Glaive then becomes easy. It's not unique. But then again, I would have to know every other Codex inside and out to truly know for certain that "Axe Mortalis" is also unique.

Perhaps there is some Sisters of Battle unit that has a bunch of Axe Mortalises in them. I don't have the book so how would I know?

The rule actually says that "it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."

I take that to mean no special rules besides being a power weapon. the Axe Mortalis does have a further special rule (u can say Master-crafted isnt unique, but theres no way it isnt special). so you cannot then go and look at it being a axe to decide what it is. neither is it unique according to some of you, so were stuck in a nowhere land with it, it definetaly needs to be dealt with in a FAQ.

personally i play it as ap 3 and strike at initiative 5, none of my opponents have had a problem with it.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
The rule actually says that "it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."

I take that to mean no special rules besides being a power weapon. the Axe Mortalis does have a further special rule (u can say Master-crafted isnt unique, but theres no way it isnt special). so you cannot then go and look at it being a axe to decide what it is. neither is it unique according to some of you, so were stuck in a nowhere land with it, it definetaly needs to be dealt with in a FAQ.

personally i play it as ap 3 and strike at initiative 5, none of my opponents have had a problem with it.

Right, so we cannot use the "look at it" rule for PW (since it has a special rule), and we cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule, as it does not have one or more unique close combat rules.

For similar instances, Triskele (Eldar) and possibly Burnas (Orks).

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
The rule actually says that "it has a power weapon with no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has."

So if the model has an axe, and the only special rule is that it's Two-Handed Power Weapon, it's AP3? I don't think so.

 azreal13 wrote:
Changing Dantes weapon's not MFA as all the various types of power weapon are, at least in GWs eyes, balanced against one another (otherwise they would alter points values) what you gain in one area (striking at I) you lose in another (reduced AP and strength)

People need to get off the train of thought that certain types are better. They are not. All types are better under different circumstances and against different opponents.

Also can people please acknowledge that RAW a unique weapon is not an unusual PW by definition. A PW is deemed unique if its RULES are unique, not if the weapon itself is. The definition of what constitutes a unique rule is currently open to interpretation and cannot be answered without an FAQ.

Personally I believe that as it is currently written a fancy name is not enough to deem a weapon unique, nor, although it's counterintuitive, can it specify a weapon type. Neither is a centrally defined special rule. A PW is only unique if it has a game effect that is explained in it's entry and nowhere else.

The weapons may be internally balanced but in certain units they offer greater advantage.
DC with lances for S7 on the charge for example. If Dante, one of the longest running characters in the Space marine characters list, is designed with an axe and you change the model to gain a different combat profile rather than for the look of the model you are MFA.

I think there is a very big difference between putting a lance on DC to get a great weapon in a high impact squad and putting a different weapon on a special character to get an advantage.
In fact why should you not put a lance on dante since they are all equal?

Put a lance on Calgar so you use that 1st turn and then 2nd turn go to the fists, gives you higher strength every time.

IMHO a defined special character should be played as per his GW model regardless of what you modeled it as. A HQ choice you make is whatever you want, same for a sergeant or any model that can take a power weapon just not special characters.

liturgiesofblood wrote:
The weapons may be internally balanced but in certain units they offer greater advantage.
DC with lances for S7 on the charge for example. If Dante, one of the longest running characters in the Space marine characters list, is designed with an axe and you change the model to gain a different combat profile rather than for the look of the model you are MFA.


Put a lance on Calgar so you use that 1st turn and then 2nd turn go to the fists, gives you higher strength every time.

IMHO a defined special character should be played as per his GW model regardless of what you modeled it as. A HQ choice you make is whatever you want, same for a sergeant or any model that can take a power weapon just not special characters.

Dante was designed with an axe in second edition when initiative had little bearing on assault and melee weapons had their own strength values and a save modifier.

Also your argument about about advantages of certain weapons in units isn't really valid. Sure, lances are nice on death company when they charge, but they'll suck if they don't get the charge or break their opponent first round. Your point about Calgar is also flawed as his weapon is defined as a specific type with unique rules. The only comparable example I can think of is Lemartes, where the faq specifies the blood crosius is a maul. The fact that that was specified and Dante wasn't could be taken as evidence that Dante can have different types of weapon. (More likely it was simply overlooked imho)

Why is it not valid, the point is that you can make DC even better in the first turn to ensure you break the enemy.....
Swords aren't much of a change as DC were never good against terminators while mauls improve their ability to drag down tough targets.
Different units make better use of the power weapon options in the same way as some units do better with certain weapons options.

Calgar has a sword which he can choose to use, if I model a lance it changes how he plays. Yes he has two power fists but that was not the important bit.

A crosius could be seen to be an axe in some cases as some have a flat profile, they clarified lemartes in line with other crosius. An axe is still an axe when it's called an axe.