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Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.

How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...

When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!

That sucks to know that my Blood Angels opponents have been cheating all Summer...

 Oaka wrote:
That sucks to know that my Blood Angels opponents have been cheating all Summer...

They haven't been cheating. Unit the FAQ came out they were playing by the rules. If they try to do it from now on though they will be cheating.

Not happy. My poor Fleshtearers and my Dante counts-as are no longer WYSIWYG. Time for them to go on the shelf with my Aribites.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.

How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...

When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!

Its not like they can single you out in hand to hand, unless its in a challenge.

And if its in a challenge, its not like they can penetrate your armor, unless they are also swinging last.

So powerfist sarges are a concern. Still, a powerfist sarge only has like a what, 20% chance of killing you? Not great.

 Horst wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.

How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...

When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!

Its not like they can single you out in hand to hand, unless its in a challenge.

And if its in a challenge, its not like they can penetrate your armor, unless they are also swinging last.

So powerfist sarges are a concern. Still, a powerfist sarge only has like a what, 20% chance of killing you? Not great.

Necron Overlord with Warscythe. S7, AP1 and strikes at Initiative 2.

If my math is right, then a Sarg has a 37% chance of killing Dante if Dante Charges, and a 50% chance if the Sarge charges.

The is a 20% chance of 1 attack killing Dante, so that bumps up to 37% and then 50% with each additional attack.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Horst wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.

How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...

When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!

Its not like they can single you out in hand to hand, unless its in a challenge.

And if its in a challenge, its not like they can penetrate your armor, unless they are also swinging last.

So powerfist sarges are a concern. Still, a powerfist sarge only has like a what, 20% chance of killing you? Not great.

Necron Overlord with Warscythe. S7, AP1 and strikes at Initiative 2.

He only has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge at WS4. Not that great. Destroyer lords are a bit better, but still.
Now, the real threat is the gear he might have. MSS can ruin anyone's day, and TessLabs are just scary.

Why do they hate Dante so much? Incubus Klaives are still AP2 without unwieldy and yet they couldn't give him a special axe for some reason. Worse yet, Huskblades are AP2 without being unwieldy as well, and they inflict Instant Death. Being reduced to I1 makes his lack of Eternal Warrior stand out that much more.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.

You can.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Necron Overlord with Warscythe. S7, AP1 and strikes at Initiative 2.

Well, really, "any" necron that can take a warscythe is S7 AP1 I2.

Unit of Incubi, Str 4 AP2 2 attacks each base, Init 5

 Kevin949 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Necron Overlord with Warscythe. S7, AP1 and strikes at Initiative 2.

Well, really, "any" necron that can take a warscythe is S7 AP1 I2.

True but they're less likely to have other stuff to make them as nasty/tough.

Sorry, wrong thread.

It is a big deal when you consider the fact that these models (Dante & Astorath) are point costed based on certain criteria , WS BS etc. Making them go from I6 and I5 respectively to I1 IMO makes them overcosted for their points. Adding EW would have mitigated the changes. Having Dante swing at I1 and have that high a chance of getting waxed by a Srg..... No thank you.

IC initiative values have been irrelevant since 6th ed launched.

Thank god he was clarified at AP2 Str +1

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
IC initiative values have been irrelevant since 6th ed launched.

Thank god he was clarified at AP2 Str +1

For some it still does. Leafblower combat characters like thunderwolf lords haven't changed how they played much at all.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Well all I can say is THIS SUCKS.... Dante has had good initiative since 2nd edition, and of course I just bought an Astorath. Its a shame you cant choose to attack with a basic CCW (Inf. Pistol will do) and confer no AP bonus OR use your big, slow axe.

How the hell do you live so long swinging last in combat...

When 10,000 years old you reach, swing as fast you will not!

Merry Christmas, you CAN choose to attack with the infernus pistol.

P.51 BRB

If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to srike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons.

Sure it uses the basic Pistol profile, S4(user) AP- but, you do get your hits in at I6 with Dante if some strange situation merits this.

bah, just chicken out of a challenge with dante, then hit and run after combat, then melta something Seriously why are people hung on the fact that dante isnt a perfect assault character. I see his strengths in the fact that on turn 2 him and a unit of SG or any other DS unit can just land behind anything and melt it to a puddle. If they get assaulted, just chicken and hit and run Ofc if there is no challenge i welcome the str +1 boost and AP2 from the axe any day

I am sorry, but all this whining about Dante is making me sick. He is OP for his points cost and needed to be knocked down a peg anyway. Kantor has Init 5 and a power fist so my Chapter Master has ALWAYS hit at Init 1. You don't see me crying about that. If you fail a Leadership test trying to hit Dante you are WS 1 for goodness sake. He makes a model -1 W/A/Init/WS and they have no defense against this. He is still an epic character and still worth taking. How dare they apply balance to an already way OP codex. They have altered Dante, pray they don't alter him any further.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Necron Overlord with Warscythe. S7, AP1 and strikes at Initiative 2.

Well, really, "any" necron that can take a warscythe is S7 AP1 I2.

True but they're less likely to have other stuff to make them as nasty/tough.

Only the lords, really. Anrakyr and Obyron both have warscythes and they're pretty beast in their own right. Hell, Obyron by himself was taking on a unit of GK terminators and winning in my last game. Granted, my friend and I were just about to leave anyway and I failed my charge roll but I was talking sh*t that he could beat them so we played a quick couple of rounds of assault with them to see how it would go. Man, AP 3 on those force weapons is spectacular for me now! And watching obyron get 10 attacks was particularly wonderful.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
I am sorry, but all this whining about Dante is making me sick. He is OP for his points cost and needed to be knocked down a peg anyway.

That is all. Really.

Did you have something to say or are you just going to smack yourself in the face without making a point?

Wait, so are we now just arguing the usefulness of a character? I think this thread is done.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
It is a big deal when you consider the fact that these models (Dante & Astorath) are point costed based on certain criteria , WS BS etc. Making them go from I6 and I5 respectively to I1 IMO makes them overcosted for their points. Adding EW would have mitigated the changes. Having Dante swing at I1 and have that high a chance of getting waxed by a Srg..... No thank you.

QFT

It's sad that the rules end up killing the heart of the game. Dante the oldest living Space Marine (Space Wolf players....Bjorn is a Dreadnought, not as "alive" as Dante) in a Chapter known for close combat prowess for 10,000 some odd years he's been hitting last? And Astorath, a guy that has to kill over raged Death Company....yeah he'll wait to attack them and go last as well. For years (more for Dante then Astorath) good toe to toe fighters, now slow.

Anarchyman, was that really worth digging up a four month old thread?

Locked for thread necromancy.