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Not in 40k. Or Magic for that matter. It isn't an axe unless it's defined as an axe, and the name isn't sufficient to do that.

Your point about dc and lances isn't valid because it applies to all units carrying lances as what lances do is improve your strength when you charge, at the expense of reduced effectiveness at other times. All you're saying is a unit that's good when it charges is better when equipped with a weapon that makes you better when you charge.

 azreal13 wrote:
Not in 40k. Or Magic for that matter. It isn't an axe unless it's defined as an axe, and the name isn't sufficient to do that.

Your point about dc and lances isn't valid because it applies to all units carrying lances as what lances do is improve your strength when you charge, at the expense of reduced effectiveness at other times. All you're saying is a unit that's good when it charges is better when equipped with a weapon that makes you better when you charge.

Yes and that means for that unit they are better.... following that logic certain characters would work better with a weapon other then what they are modeled with. Steam roller characters that pump out large numbers of attacks don't really need a second round of combat when they are used right. You make them better, better than they were designed to be by MFA.
When you change a model to give you a better game result that is MFA. Putting lances on DC isn't MFA as it is a valid option available to them, putting a lance on dante would give you a better attack profile on a high attack high initiative model. This changes how it behaves. If you allow Dante to get a sword then why not a lance. This is the gate you open when you allow this.
When I have an axe that is a power weapon called an axe, it is an axe. I fail to see how you can have an sword called the axe mortalis.

GW have modeled a special character, they defined that character in the codex and by modelling it. Why does dante get a sword now?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes and that means for that unit they are better....

No, in that circumstance they are better.

Every unit is better when it can use its weapons better.

The various types of power weapons are not, according to the rules, better than one another as they are costed identically.
Something that the rules tell us would not happen if your assertions were true.

@Liturgies Of Blood.
Your opinion, not fact. In your example Dante would be effective against MEQ, but would struggle against MANz, as his attacks would just bounce, in this case the axe would be better.

I'll say it again. No one weapon is better. Individual weapon types are better in certain situations.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes and that means for that unit they are better.... following that logic certain characters would work better with a weapon other then what they are modeled with. Steam roller characters that pump out large numbers of attacks don't really need a second round of combat when they are used right. You make them better, better than they were designed to be by MFA.
When you change a model to give you a better game result that is MFA. Putting lances on DC isn't MFA as it is a valid option available to them, putting a lance on dante would give you a better attack profile on a high attack high initiative model. This changes how it behaves. If you allow Dante to get a sword then why not a lance. This is the gate you open when you allow this.
When I have an axe that is a power weapon called an axe, it is an axe. I fail to see how you can have an sword called the axe mortalis.

GW have modeled a special character, they defined that character in the codex and by modelling it. Why does dante get a sword now?

Yes, I am aware of this and think that he may be equipped with a maul or lance as well. I just personally want a sword (Even more specifically, just don't want him to have an unwieldy weapon). I like the rules of the power sword and I can pick equipment based on its rules and it is not MFA, correct?

Let's look at the Glaive Encarmine, which we all agree is a "named" weapon and not an unusual power weapon. This currently may be modeled as a sword, axe, lance, or maul at no extra cost and this is not MFA. The Axe Mortalis follows the same weapon profile, less being two handed, and as such can be modeled to use the rules provided in the BRB without being classified as MFA.

Because there is a generic weapon that can be modelled as you want. A specific model, with a specific weapon called an axe is now schrodinger's power weapon?

I agree that sanguinary guard can have whatever, I don't see how this applies to special characters. I have got no justification, the rules say look at the model but most special characters have a GW model to go by.

The difference you seem to be missing is that while you can put wargear options on normal units and characters special characters by and large have no wargear options. Dante either has a power axe due to the model holding an axe and master crafterd not being important or he has an unusual power weapon, it cannot be anything else.

If you play Dante with a lance or maul then you have a counts as model. RAW counts as doesn't exist as a rule so you have to get your opponents permission to play that and he is within his rights to say no.

Flipping back to the glaive encarmine for a second to point out a name of something is not a rule.
If you look up glaive, you will find
A European polearm weapon, consisting of a single-edged blade on the end of a pole. It is similar to a Japanese naginata or the Chinese guan dao.

It is affixed in a socket-shaft configuration similar to an axe, rather than having a tang like a sword.
It's a spear or a halberd (making it an axe), yet none of the models of said weapon are spears.
A name is a name, not a rule.

lostinthewarp wrote:
Flipping back to the glaive encarmine for a second to point out a name of something is not a rule.
If you look up glaive, you will find
A European polearm weapon, consisting of a single-edged blade on the end of a pole. It is similar to a Japanese naginata or the Chinese guan dao.

It is affixed in a socket-shaft configuration similar to an axe, rather than having a tang like a sword.
It's a spear or a halberd (making it an axe), yet none of the models of said weapon are spears.
A name is a name, not a rule.

While you did some good searching on wikipedia there, if you looked at the other uses for the word it now is also used to describe a sword. So a glaive is either a sword or an axe.... just like the models.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glaive

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you play Dante with a lance or maul then you have a counts as model. RAW counts as doesn't exist as a rule so you have to get your opponents permission to play that and he is within his rights to say no.

RAW counts as is allowed (for marines and Tyranids at least) when it gives permission to create custom chapters or splinter fleets and use the rules for special characters that are Chapter/Fleet specific.

So my version of Dante that I use for my FT is legal per RAW as long as I use the points cost listed and as long as I accurately model his wargear. As Cain is definitly NOT Dante he can not be equiped with the specific weapon The Axe Mortalis (In name), but I must have it modeled with a weapon that accuratly depects his wargear. That war gear is a Master Crafted power weapon. My specific use of a massive chainsword is the only thing that could arguably be "counts as".

Now if I decided to do a Chaos army and wanted to use the rules for Kharn the Berzerker for a custom chapter (say that I have a 1K Sons army and wanted to create a 1K Sons version of Kharn) then I HAVE to show the model with an axe as Gorechild is specificly called out in the rules as being an axe.

Gloomfang I acknowledge this but I'm not a fluff player. I play to paint, to do math and statistics, and the good hearty debate of philosophyhammer (such as this wonderful thread! ^_^)

I feel like that is somewhat of a loophole to do what you want and leave the rule muddy. Based as on RAW and what is defined as MFA, and that the Blood Crozious has been clarified as a power maul, Danté's power weapon can be changed.

At least until the next faq comes out and gw possibly locks it in add an axe.

Happyjew wrote:
At least until the next faq comes out and gw possibly locks it in add an axe.

Yeah, and this is the reason I'd recommend against chopping off the axes. I'm pretty sure they will chance this.

dufus0001 wrote:
Gloomfang I acknowledge this but I'm not a fluff player. I play to paint, to do math and statistics, and the good hearty debate of philosophyhammer (such as this wonderful thread! ^_^)

I feel like that is somewhat of a loophole to do what you want and leave the rule muddy. Based as on RAW and what is defined as MFA, and that the Blood Crozious has been clarified as a power maul, Danté's power weapon can be changed.

I agree that the rule for what counts as a UPW is muddy.

And I also agree that Dante's weapon can be changed. I hope that it is FAQed to be Unique becasue then I don't have to remodel my mini (as form doesn't matter for a UPW).

As for the whole MFA issue, giving a model wargear that it is allowed to have is not MFA. Changing the base size or adjusting the profile to affect LOS are MFA.

yA AND YA KNOW WHATS UNIQUE ABOUT IT. iNITIATIVE 6

Just play Dante as Dante, and when your opponent complains and says something to the contrary just say he's rules lawyering for advantage.

Hes a unique dude with unique stats and stuff. Play him as codex dantes, advanced rules trump BRB.

End of discussion IMHO

Everyone seems to be focusing on the "Unsual Power Weapons" section. But I have noticed that no one has quoted the Types of Power Weapons section.

Pg 61, 3rd paragraph states "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the rnodel to tell which type of power weapon it has

The Axe of Mortalis HAS futher speical rules. Special, not unique rules.

This isn't news. As written at the moment a PW with special rules but not unique rules is neither a normal or unique PW. Hence the debate.

Lungpickle wrote:
yA AND YA KNOW WHATS UNIQUE ABOUT IT. iNITIATIVE 6

No, that's coming from Danté. I agree his axe is unique but as per the rules it does not qualify as an unusual weapon.

Lungpickle wrote:

Just play Dante as Dante, and when your opponent complains and says something to the contrary just say he's rules lawyering for advantage.

That is MY job. I like to think I do it well.

Lungpickle wrote:
Hes a unique dude with unique stats and stuff. Play him as codex dantes, advanced rules trump BRB.
End of discussion IMHO

Unique =/= Unusual. Codex Dantés does not exist. I am a realist and don't care much about the fluff of the game. It's cool and all, but if it were absent I wouldn't bat an eyelash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Salted Diamond wrote:
Everyone seems to be focusing on the "Unsual Power Weapons" section. But I have noticed that no one has quoted the Types of Power Weapons section.

Pg 61, 3rd paragraph states "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the rnodel to tell which type of power weapon it has

The Axe of Mortalis HAS futher speical rules. Special, not unique rules.

What about a Two-Handed Power Weapon with no "name," who's modeled with an axe? Is that AP 2 or 3?

I would go with Two Handed being a special rule and use UPW.

What about "unwieldy" is that a special rule, forcing you to UPS?

I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.

Actually you have a good point there.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.

THIS!
Exactly, a Two-Handed Power Axe cannot exist if you read it like that. ImHO, it should.

Can we pay GW to put out an FAQ on this? lol

dufus0001 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.

THIS!
Exactly, a Two-Handed Power Axe cannot exist if you read it like that. ImHO, it should.

Can we pay GW to put out an FAQ on this? lol

No... A Weapon explicitly which is defined as a power axe or power maul or power sword can be all sorts of things and have extra special rules without being an unusual power weapon. Once a weapon has been defined as a Power Maul, it is no longer a power weapon and the unusual power weapon catch-all doesn't apply. Many FAQ entries limited units to only having a power sword or power maul.

Only undefined 'power weapons' that have special rules are going to force them to be unusual. A Two-handed Power Axe can exist. A power weapon with the additional special rule of Two-handed which happens to be an axe via visual representation cannot exist.

If you follow that interpretation... Hence why i would discuss with opponents, ask your TO and not rush out to remodel units until better FAQs exist.

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.

Can you show me the page number where Universal Special Rules are?

I can only find Special rules, none of which are Universal.

Thanks

jbunny wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I don't think having a universal special rule turns a weapon into a unique power weapon, for the simple reason that this would make master-crafted mauls or two-handed axes impossible, and that's just silly.

Can you show me the page number where Universal Special Rules are?

I can only find Special rules, none of which are Universal.

Thanks

They used to be called USR's

they are just called SR's in 6th ed.

DR - I know. My point is everyone keeps using the fact that they are "Universal" to say they are not unique. They are using old rules in a RAW discussion, and should not be allowed.

So with the glaive, am I restricted to something with a blade? Seeing as the word is translated into sword but the use of the term is for any sharp pointy stick, be it axe, spear or sword?

Back to the "axe" at hand
The wysiwyg power weapon rule states that if it has no other special rules, use the chart. As such, seeing as they are not unique, but have a special rule, you are not required to use the chart.
They then go on to cover unique power weapons, but never cover power weapons with special rules. Making this gray area.
To set precedents on if they wanted it to be an axe, they would say so, gorechild as well as the man reaper have been erattaed to state this (tho not great examples seeing as they are unique)
Also, at no time in the rule book do they have modeling rules, as pointed out earlier, nor are there rules on requiring a special character to be the one that gw offers. They must be citadel models, seeing as the description of the game states that it is a game for them to be played with.
So, Dante is not required at any time in the rules to be specifically the Dante that gw offers.

Yes I used Wikipedia for the glaive. Seeing as I'm at work and couldn't pull out an encyclopedic britannica or anything.

jbunny wrote:
DR - I know. My point is everyone keeps using the fact that they are "Universal" to say they are not unique. They are using old rules in a RAW discussion, and should not be allowed.

Well considering Master crafted is a special rule, but it is not unique means your point has no merit.

My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong.

Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules.

The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.

jbunny wrote:
My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong.

Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules.

The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.

Yes there is a hole in the rules.

They say special rules first and unique rules later, leaving weapons with non unique special rules in limbo.

Or the reference to special rules, in context refers to unique rules.

My thoughts on it: a unique weapon should be treated like a unique character (You only have one unique character, so the same should apply for Unique weapons).