The Axe Mortalis (Revisited)

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**Happyjew**

Of course one could argue that "special rules" refer to the rules found in hte rulebook under "Special Rules". If that is true then you are left with power weapons that have no special rules, no unique close combat rules, and do not look like any of the listed profile.

**cowmonaut**

liturgies of blood wrote:
kcwm wrote:
It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.

If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.

Like the "axe" morki?

The original rules for the Axe Morkai states it can be used as either a Frost Blade or Power Fist. That wasn't an FAQ change, it always has said it counts as a Frost Blade. Frost Weapons (Blades/Axes) are not Power Weapons. They have their own rules.

The Axe Mortalis is listed as Master Crafted Power Weapon. Given this is a Special Character and not a configurable unit (like a Captain), I would argue you have to go off of what the official model has if one is available. I'd also argue you have to use the rules as written, and the weapon is listed as an Axe in its name. Barring any unusual rules for close combat attacks, which it distinctly lacks, its not unusual so would be Unwieldly and AP 2.

I still think this sucks since Dante is Initiative 6, but its not the only use for Initiative. Just one of the most important ones...

But I'm sorry, modifying a unique character to have different wargear than is described is MFA. Its rules lawyering to try to argue this Axe on this one character uses the rules for Swords without the FAQ backing you up, which makes you akin to TFG. So I think the OP is in denial about it being MFA...

**jbunny**

cowmonaut wrote:
..

But I'm sorry, modifying a unique character to have different wargear than is described is MFA. Its rules lawyering to try to argue this Axe on this one character uses the rules for Swords without the FAQ backing you up, which makes you akin to TFG. So I think the OP is in denial about it being MFA...

Or you are being think on that MFA means. What advantage are you getting by changing? Also GW has never said you have to use the correct model, or the model they say is Dante. They only say you must use a GW model, and the model must be WYSIWYG.

The name Ax is only used in it's fluff, and not it's rules. Unless you want to argue that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons because the weapons is listed as Heavy in it's name. The only war gear that is being changed is his Power Weapon. Power weapons can be either Swords,Axes, Mauls, or Lances. They are all Power Weapons, and so you get a choice. And you make that choice when you assemble the model.

There is also the Fact that GW did not FAQ his weapon as an AX, much like they FAQ'ed all Chaplin weapons as Mauls. That means they either intended it to be an unusual Power Weapon, or it is a Power Weapon and you get the choice.

**dufus0001**

jbunny wrote:
My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong.

Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules.

The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.

Again, by this reasoning a Two-Handed Power Axe cannot exist unless specified in the codex or FAQ. If it says "Two-Handed Power Weapon" in the entry, according to this logic, it would not matter what the wysiwyg of the model because the special rule of being Two-Handed automatically makes it unusual, AP3 and thus, no modeling for Two-Handed Power Axes. This is not MFA.

**Nemesor Dave**

jbunny wrote:
My point is the people who use the Universal as a way to discredit are wrong. They might be right over all, but their reasoning is wrong.

Also all of those rules - Master Crafted, Two-handed, ect are all Special rules.

The Power weapon section says for weapons with no Special rules. Then later it mentions Unique, but did not define unique. So one section says if it does not have Special rules follow the chart, then it says it must have unique rules to be AP3. So anything with Special rules that are not unique are not Power weapons and have no Str Value, and no AP value.

It's true GW did not define Unique. For that we have the dictonary and the English Language. I firmly believe the intent as RAW is for Dante's Axe to be played as an Unusual Weapon since it has special rules. Unfortunately there's nothing inherently unique about being Master Crafted.

In any case, the Axe Mortalis fits into both categories so it's a bit blurry.

The Glaive
1. more than one character in an army can take one.
2. It has a special rule in the same format like the Axe Mortalis.

This one is completely mixed up. There is just no way to decide using only RAW.

A character with a 2+ armor 4+ invuln going last then SMASHING anything in it's path is crazy.

Master crafted so you get a rerolled miss. 3's to hit, no armor saves allowed against it. S6 lets dante one round lesser Characters all day long while laughing. It's the S3 at I6 that is meh.

edit: any idea why multiquote gets screwed up lately? arg!

**Dozer Blades**

I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.

**juraigamer**

Dozer Blades wrote:
I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.

And any tournament wouldn't. All "power weapons" need to stay the same all the time in that setting, you can play against a guy with dante and have no 2+ armor saves and him play is as ap 3, then another guy be running deathwing and have him switch to a power axe.

It's an axe, it looks like an axe, it swings like an axe, and it's called an axe. Anyone trying to prove otherwise is crazy.

**Camarodragon**

juraigamer wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.

It's an axe, it looks like an axe, it swings like an axe, and it's called an axe. Anyone trying to prove otherwise is crazy.

It looks like me and a whole bunch of other people must be crazy then...!!!! Otherwise this thread wouldn't be going on and on and on and on..............again........

**Happyjew**

juraigamer wrote:
Dozer Blades wrote:
I would let my opponent play it either way - they just would need to be consistent throughout the game.

And any tournament wouldn't. All "power weapons" need to stay the same all the time in that setting, you can play against a guy with dante and have no 2+ armor saves and him play is as ap 3, then another guy be running deathwing and have him switch to a power axe.

It's an axe, it looks like an axe, it swings like an axe, and it's called an axe. Anyone trying to prove otherwise is crazy.

Unless of course it looks like a sword/mace/lance and swings like a sword/mace/lance.

**A Town Called Malus**

The fluff name of a weapon does not decide its rules.

Read this as an example of why:

Dante planted his foot against the twisted imitation of one of his brothers and forced him down to the ground, into the mire of blood and mud the once beautiful field had become.

"Who are you?" choked the fallen marine as blood trickled down his cheek.

"I am your executioner and this," Dante said, brandishing his gleaming sword flickering with destructive energy, "is my axe."

The blade fell. The choking of the marine ceased.

If someone were to be known as The Executioner then it would make sense that any weapon they used, regardless of its actual type, to be called their axe due to the axe being pretty much synonymous with an executioner.

Poetic license and all that.

**liturgies of blood**

Yeah cos Ilyn Payne always swings his axe when administering the kings justice. Apart from the time that never happened and it's always clearly stated to be a sword.

**Happyjew**

liturgies of blood wrote:
Yeah cos Ilyn Payne always swings his axe when administering the kings justice. Apart from the time that never happened and it's always clearly stated to be a sword.

I know when Ned dispenses the kings justice, he uses a two-handed sword (at least in the fluff)

**nkelsch**

Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.

Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.

Option 2: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. All special rules from the first clause result in applying the rules for unusual power weapons.
Result 2: Both Dante's Axe and Glaive encarmine are treated as AP3 Str - Unusual power weapons.

Option 3: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine only come with two visual representations, an axe and a sword.
Result 3: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe or Sword.

Option 4: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine on the otherhand may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due to the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 4: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.

Option 5: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 5: Dante's Axe is and Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.

Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?

**Tyr Grimtooth**

nkelsch wrote:
Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.

Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.

Option 2: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. All special rules from the first clause result in applying the rules for unusual power weapons.
Result 2: Both Dante's Axe and Glaive encarmine are treated as AP3 Str - Unusual power weapons.

Option 3: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine only come with two visual representations, an axe and a sword.
Result 3: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe or Sword.

Option 4: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Being a special character, Dante has a physical axe, converting the axe to anything else is MFA and all 'counts as' should stay as close to the original model as possible and the weapon is explicitly called an AXE. Glaive encarmine on the otherhand may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due to the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 4: Dante's Axe is a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.

Option 5: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique by classifying defined rulebook rules (called USR in 5th) as not unique, We default to back to looking at the physical model. Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine may be modeled as any of the 4 power weapon types due the social convention allowing conversions.
Result 5: Dante's Axe is and Glaive encarmine are able to be a Master-Crafted Power Axe, Sword, Maul or Lance.

Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?

One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.

The rest of your options contain a leap in logic not supported by any rules as well. Specifically the concept that in the absence of a unique rule, you are somehow allowed permission to default to the rule for determining weapon type and rules by looking at what is on the model. There is no rules support at all for that opinion.

What everyone seem to be missing from this entire argument is that neither Dante or Sanguinary guard are armed with master-crafted power weapons, they are armed with an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmines respectively. Per the rules quoted,

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has

Dante's wargear says he has the Axe of Mortalis, not a power weapon. Sanguinary Guard's wargear entry says they have Glaive Encarmines, not power weapons. Now this is completely different when you refer to someone like Ulrik the Slayer or DCA whose wargear entries specifically say, "power weapon". So the first part of the rule quoted has absolutely zero relevance to how the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines work or are determined. Now addressing the second rule quoted,

If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you that they are master-crafted power weapons. Note, this is NOT the same as saying that Dante and Sanguinary Guard have master-crafted power weapons because the wargear entries for Dante and Sanguinary Guard are specific in that they have an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine, not master-crafted power weapons. The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you how to use them, in this case, as master-crafted power weapons. Basically you need to recognize the following and the distinction between the two;

Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon.

Dante is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, whose rules are that it is a master-crafted power weapon.

So, the only way to play it is that both Dante and Sanguinary Guard are equipped with unique weapons, that are played as power weapons, who have a unique rule in that allows them to reroll one missed hit in close combat. This fulfills the second rule quoted practically verbatim. You can try and argue that master-crafted is not a unique "enough" rule, but that way only leads to breaking the game and you have zero rules support to make that argument, only your opinion on what is unique and what is not unique "enough".

**DeathReaper**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.

Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.

Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?

One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.

Unique is not defined in the BRB so we fall back on the normal English definition of unique. But they do say that something that is unique (Like named characters and vindicare assassins) we may only take one of them in our list.

"The special rule is NOT unique" because a different weapon can have exactly the same rules as Dante's weapon.

That is why it is not unique.

**nkelsch**

DeathReaper wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
nkelsch wrote:Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.

Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.

Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?

One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.

Unique is not defined in the BRB so we fall back on the normal English definition of unique. But they do say that something that is unique (Like named characters and vindicare assassins) we may only take one of them in our list.

"The special rule is NOT unique" because a different weapon can have exactly the same rules as Dante's weapon.

That is why it is not unique.

Which leaves result 1... If you have 'special rules' you are not allowed to look at the model to choose the result. But when you get to the second rule, the special rule HAS to be unique and if you apply a specific interpretation of UNIQUE... this leaves a set of weapons who HAVE special rules but those special rules are not UNIQUE.

Which means you either have no permission to apply any rule where the power weapon does nothing... or you assume one of the two options... look at model, or unique power weapon.

The issue is due to a HYWPI poll is there is nO RAW right now. So it is all either RAI or how you think GW will FAQ it.

I can add a 6th option for the concept of 'unique weapons' but the result is the same as option number two, just a different form of logic applied that it is a Unique power weapon for being a named unique weapon not because it has a special rule and the lack of UNIQUE being defined means all special rules apply. Same result as option 2 but different justification.

**DeathReaper**

HIWPI:

Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe")

Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...

**nkelsch**

DeathReaper wrote:
HIWPI:

Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe")

Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...

If you had an 'unwieldy power weapon' then yes... it could be considered AP3.

Notice if you have a 'Power weapon' with no rules and it looks like an axe... it does not become an 'unwieldy power weapon' it becomes a power axe due to the first part of the rule. Once defined as a power axe by not having any special rules... doesn't matter if it is unwieldy.

This is the problem. The only way you have the choice to look at the weapon is by having "no further special rules". As long as you have a special rule, unique or not... you may never look at the model to tell the type. If you define 'UNIQUE' to mean anything but a USR then there is a hole where weapons never get to be assigned a type.

This is where you have to assume that weapons which do not fit any of the options are assumed to be 'caught' by the unique power weapons, or default back to 'look at the model'. Both are unsupported and take a leap of intent.

So what is the default? You can't argue that master crafted is not a special rule, you can say it is unique... so it is neither look at the weapon or unusual PW... Which of the two clauses becomes the default then for the undefined weapons with non-unique special rules?

**Happyjew**

DeathReaper wrote:
HIWPI:

Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe")

Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...

And here is where we differ. In my opinion, the special rules and unique rules the rulebook refers to, are any special rules/abilities not found in the special rules section. So a mastercrafted or two-handed weapon would not qualify, but one that grants +1 Strength would.

**dufus0001**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.

The rest of your options contain a leap in logic not supported by any rules as well. Specifically the concept that in the absence of a unique rule, you are somehow allowed permission to default to the rule for determining weapon type and rules by looking at what is on the model. There is no rules support at all for that opinion.

What everyone seem to be missing from this entire argument is that neither Dante or Sanguinary guard are armed with master-crafted power weapons, they are armed with an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmines respectively. Per the rules quoted,

If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has

Dante's wargear says he has the Axe of Mortalis, not a power weapon. Sanguinary Guard's wargear entry says they have Glaive Encarmines, not power weapons. Now this is completely different when you refer to someone like Ulrik the Slayer or DCA whose wargear entries specifically say, "power weapon". So the first part of the rule quoted has absolutely zero relevance to how the Axe of Mortalis or Glaive Encarmines work or are determined. Now addressing the second rule quoted,

If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you that they are master-crafted power weapons. Note, this is NOT the same as saying that Dante and Sanguinary Guard have master-crafted power weapons because the wargear entries for Dante and Sanguinary Guard are specific in that they have an Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine, not master-crafted power weapons. The rules for the Axe of Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine tell you how to use them, in this case, as master-crafted power weapons. Basically you need to recognize the following and the distinction between the two;

Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon.

Dante is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, whose rules are that it is a master-crafted power weapon.

So, the only way to play it is that both Dante and Sanguinary Guard are equipped with unique weapons, that are played as power weapons, who have a unique rule in that allows them to reroll one missed hit in close combat. This fulfills the second rule quoted practically verbatim. You can try and argue that master-crafted is not a unique "enough" rule, but that way only leads to breaking the game and you have zero rules support to make that argument, only your opinion on what is unique and what is not unique "enough".

Fluff =/= Rules. Yes, Danté is equipped with a weapon called "The Axe Mortalis," this is fluff. The Axe Mortalis is a Master Crafted Power Weapon, this is a rule/game mechanic. I do not play games with fluff nor is it used for me to determine how the game "should" be played.

Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.

Also, The Sanguinor carries a Glaive Encarmine, same as the Sanguinary Guard. Can this weapon be changed? I think so.

If you're equipped with a Heavy Flamer, it must be a heavy weapon I guess. Assault Cannons are now assault weapons. Labels determine everything!!!

I also just got the funny feeling that when they finally do FAQ this, we are going to see a LOT of unusual power weapons.

**Tyr Grimtooth**

DeathReaper wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Maybe we need a HYWPI poll. These are the choices I can boil down with the train of thought represented and the result. Personally, I feel choice 1 is RAW which means the game breaks... so a lot of this is choosing how we either feel GW will rule or what the best RAI is at the moment.

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

Dante has Axe Mortalis, a Master-Crafted Power Weapon, Glaive encarmine are Master-Crafted Power Weapons.

Option 1: Due to the unspecified power weapons having an additional special rule of 'master-crafted' You cannot 'look at the model' for the weapon type. Because the special rule is NOT unique, we have no direction on what type of power weapon it is.
Result 1: Game breaks. There are no effects.

Can anyone think of any other valid permutations of the available choices?

One problem I see with your option 1 is that the emboldened above has absolutely zero rules support. It is the opinion of some players that master-crafted is not a unique rule, yet they can not point to any rules support to back them on that opinion.

Unique is not defined in the BRB so we fall back on the normal English definition of unique. But they do say that something that is unique (Like named characters and vindicare assassins) we may only take one of them in our list.

"The special rule is NOT unique" because a different weapon can have exactly the same rules as Dante's weapon.

That is why it is not unique.

No, that is your opinion that you default to the english language definition, an opinion unsupported by the rules. But since you insist, how many Axe of Mortalis can you take? You have zero rules standing to default to the basic english language much less compare it to unique unit restrictions.

Remember, Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon. He is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, that uses the rules for a master-crafted power weapon.

**4oursword**

jbunny wrote:
Exactly. It only counts as a power weapon. The book says you can use either an Ax, Sword, Maul. So you can model Dante with a sword to gain and it is legal.

The weapon is named an ax, but Name does not equal rules. See heavy Flamer, and Assault Cannon as proof.

This SO many times. The edition change ruins armies, so I'm more than happy to back up anyone who wants to give Dante a Maul Mortalis or Sword Mortalis. Don't see how this argument's still raging.

**nkelsch**

dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.

Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.

The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.

**Happyjew**

nkelsch wrote:
dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.

Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.

The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.

Right and since it does not have a unique close combat rule, we cannot use the S(User) AP3 as it is not an unusual Power Weapon.

My way may or may not be what GW intended, however, as far as I can tell, breaks the fewest rules.

**nkelsch**

Happyjew wrote:

My way may or may not be what GW intended, however, as far as I can tell, breaks the fewest rules.

We can't use any rule actually.

And since UNIQUE is undefined and ambiguous while the clause on 'further special rules' is painfully clear... if we Know one Clause is a 100% NO and the other is a wishy washy unconfirmed No.

Defaulting to the result of the 100% confirmed No over the wishy washy NO doesn't break less rules in my opinion, especially since nothing allows you to default to the first rule after you fail the second rule and the rules are applied in a specific order. (actually, regardless of order, a Master-Crafted Power weapon can never be a YES for the first rule so it continues to never be allowed to be applied in any definition of UNIQUE)

**dufus0001**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Remember, Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon. He is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, that uses the rules for a master-crafted power weapon.

Danté is not armed with a MC PW, he is armed with a MC PW: "The Axe Mortalis"

Do you see how this is contradictory?

**Dozer Blades**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
The fluff name of a weapon does not decide its rules.

Read this as an example of why:

Dante planted his foot against the twisted imitation of one of his brothers and forced him down to the ground, into the mire of blood and mud the once beautiful field had become.

"Who are you?" choked the fallen marine as blood trickled down his cheek.

"I am your executioner and this," Dante said, brandishing his gleaming sword flickering with destructive energy, "is my axe."

The blade fell. The choking of the marine ceased.

If someone were to be known as The Executioner then it would make sense that any weapon they used, regardless of its actual type, to be called their axe due to the axe being pretty much synonymous with an executioner.

Poetic license and all that.

I am sorry but what exactly does this have to do with any actual rules?

**dufus0001**

nkelsch wrote:
dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.

Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.

The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.

I believe you missed my target completely. It is not possible to explain why Sanguinary guard can only carry axes or swords. You may model them with any of the 4 power weapon choices.

The Sanguinor also carries the SAME WEAPON. Unique character with absolute non-unique gear. If you can change the model of the Glaive Encarmine of the Sanguinary Guard, the same can be done for the same weapon of another unit. If you can modify the Sanguinor's weapon because he has a non-unusual power weapon, the same can be done for Danté's non-unusual power weapon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I just want to restate these principles for everyone:

1. Fluff =/= Rules
2. Unique =/= Unusual
3. Name of weapon does not determine how it functions. (see Heavy Flamer)

Do we all agree on those?

**nkelsch**

dufus0001 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
dufus0001 wrote:
Please explain why a Glaive Encarmine cannot be a Power Lance or Power Maul. I don't think it is possible for you to do so. Just because GW provided a model that only comes with a sword or axe does not mean that is the model has to have. As long as the weapon meets the profile of what the wargear, the model is legal.

Because:
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

You cannot argue that 'master crafted' is not a special rule. If you have a "further Special rule" then you are never given the ability to "look at the model". Without looking at the model, you never are granted one of the 4 power weapon types.

The *ONLY* way you can even get to the logic of 'looking at the model' is by assuming that the special rule is not UNIQUE enough to classify as a unusual power weapon and then somehow defaults unwrittenly back to looking at the model. Which is a valid application of RAI but by no means RAW.

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

At no time are Power weapons WITH special rules but without Unique close combat rules given permission to look at the model to determine the type.

I believe you missed my target completely. It is not possible to explain why Sanguinary guard can only carry axes or swords. You may model them with any of the 4 power weapon choices.

The Sanguinor also carries the SAME WEAPON. Unique character with absolute non-unique gear. If you can change the model of the Glaive Encarmine of the Sanguinary Guard, the same can be done for the same weapon of another unit. If you can modify the Sanguinor's weapon because he has a non-unusual power weapon, the same can be done for Danté's non-unusual power weapon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I just want to restate these principles for everyone:

1. Fluff =/= Rules
2. Unique =/= Unusual
3. Name of weapon does not determine how it functions. (see Heavy Flamer)

Do we all agree on those?

You can model it however you want... but I have actually quote rules where the type of model only comes into effect when the power weapon has "no further special rules".

Being master crafted is a special rule... and it is on the power weapon. That is undeniable.

So if you are not given permission to look at the model to determine the type... how do you look at the model to determine the type when you are explicitly told you are not allowed to because the weapon has a special rule?

Are you not actually reading the rules? I am not actually referencing Fluff, Unique or Weapon names...

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

"If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."

Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?

**dufus0001**

nkelsch wrote:
Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?

Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User). Now I'm verging on fluff here but hear me out; just because you hold an axe with two hands means it strikes faster (Ini) but with less force (AP)? How is being Two-Handed unusual?

Thank god there's no bastard sword in 40k. A hand-and-a-half sword would just make the game implode.