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I have asked the question before if Danté's axe would qualify as a regular power weapon or specail becuase its mastercrafted and it is not. But, are you allowed to change the model to a power sword instead of the axe even being a unique character? I don't believe this to be modeling to your advantage because it would still abide by what the codex states: "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon."

Being mastercrafted doesn't make it unusual. It's a power axe, because the model is holding an axe.

However there is a gray area in the power weapon rules. Pg 61 states that a weapon listed in wargear as a powerweapon is wysiwyg, then in unique power weapons it states it must have weapon specific rules. This is not the case. It's listed as a named weapon, then is given the powerweapon rule along with the additional rule of master crafted. This is not covered in the rule book.

It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.

If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.

 kcwm wrote:
It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.

If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.

Like the "axe" morki?

 kcwm wrote:
It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.

If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.

Do normal power axes come with the ability to reroll one missed hit in close combat? Oh look, it has a special rule and thus you do NOT look to the weapon to determine the type or rules for it.

Main rulebook on power weapons if you need to reread the rules.

Codex > BRB

Codex states it is a unique weapon.

Pleade read under equipment pg 23 codex blood angels.. It is very much unique.

Mastercrafed is not a unique rule, its a special rule. As such it doesn't cause it to be automatically ap3, it may say axe, but it is not clarified 100%. At no time do they cover "named weapons with the rule of powerweapon" such as the glaive encarmine as another example, two handed and mastercrafted, but not listed as a powerweapon in the wargear. Listed as its named an given the rule of powerweapon.

juraigamer wrote:Being mastercrafted doesn't make it unusual. It's a power axe, because the model is holding an axe.

Yeah, and what I want to know is if I can change it.

lostinthewarp wrote:However there is a gray area in the power weapon rules. Pg 61 states that a weapon listed in wargear as a powerweapon is wysiwyg, then in unique power weapons it states it must have weapon specific rules. This is not the case. It's listed as a named weapon, then is given the powerweapon rule along with the additional rule of master crafted. This is not covered in the rule book.

This.

kcwm wrote:It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there. The description clearly says its an axe, as does the name.
If you could sub in a sword, the first Blood Angels FAQ would have indicated.

Names mean nothing. A rose by any other name, yadda yadda yadda. The FAQ does not say it is an "axe."

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Do normal power axes come with the ability to reroll one missed hit in close combat? Oh look, it has a special rule and thus you do NOT look to the weapon to determine the type or rules for it.
Main rulebook on power weapons if you need to reread the rules.

Having a USR does not qualify it to be a "unique" weapon. This is the only rule that separates it from every other normal power weapon.

Camarodragon wrote:Pleade read under equipment pg 23 codex blood angels.. It is very much unique.

While it does say the weapon is unique, the only special rule it has is Master Crafted. This is NOT enough to be considered a "unique" weapon. Therefore, because pg. 53 states "The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon (not power axe, it's not in the FAQ) shouldn't it be able to be modeled with any power weapon?

lostinthewarp wrote:Mastercrafed is not a unique rule, its a special rule. As such it doesn't cause it to be automatically ap3, it may say axe, but it is not clarified 100%. At no time do they cover "named weapons with the rule of powerweapon" such as the glaive encarmine as another example, two handed and mastercrafted, but not listed as a powerweapon in the wargear. Listed as its named an given the rule of powerweapon.

All power weapons are AP3 initially. Then depending on the wysiwyg, other rules apply.


If you couldn't tell, all I want is Danté to go off at initiative 6 instead of 1 in close combat. Specifically for the purposes of challenges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, this has made me want to make a new unique character who carries "The Scythe of Retribution." The Scythe of Retribution is a giant hammer.

The FAQ doesn't need to clarify that it's an axe because the name clearly indicates that it's an axe. A rose by any other name? Please. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe. GW isn't exactly known for writing clear and concise rules, but they aren't going to FAQ the name of a weapon because the name CLEARLY says what it is.

dufus0001 wrote:


If you couldn't tell, all I want is Danté to go off at initiative 6 instead of 1 in close combat. Specifically for the purposes of challenges.
.

Of course you want Dante to go at initiative 6. Unfortunately, with the edition change, he doesn't and you're simply trying to find a loophole in the rules that doesn't exist. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe.

Understood, and I the same. However... Seeing as it is not covered in the rules, one should either roll off on it or just give in for the sake of fun.

 kcwm wrote:

Of course you want Dante to go at initiative 6. Unfortunately, with the edition change, he doesn't and you're simply trying to find a loophole in the rules that doesn't exist. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe.

So the Scythe of Retribution is not a hammer then?

 kcwm wrote:
The FAQ doesn't need to clarify that it's an axe because the name clearly indicates that it's an axe. A rose by any other name? Please. Ok, it says "master crafter weapon" in the description, but the name of the weapon specifically calls it an axe. GW isn't exactly known for writing clear and concise rules, but they aren't going to FAQ the name of a weapon because the name CLEARLY says what it is

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Like the "axe" morki?

Also, if you were to change Astorath the Grim's "The Executioner's Axe" into a sword, it would NOT change anything about it. You would have an Executioner's Axe Sword. So would this be an acceptable change?

As much as I hate to be on this side, I have to come in and say that yes, you can change the 'Axe' Mortalis to whatever power weapon you want (be it glaive, mace, sword etc) despite the name, as the name means nothing, it just acts as a tool to identify what particular weapon you're talking about, it doesn't define what the weapon is.
Codex states it is a power weapon, not a power axe, so you follow the normal procedure for figuring out what on earth it does.

'Also, if you were to change Astorath the Grim's "The Executioner's Axe" into a sword, it would NOT change anything about it. You would have an Executioner's Axe Sword. So would this be an acceptable change?'

The Executioner's Axe counts as an Unusual Power Weapon, and as such is not an 'axe' with regards to initiative and ap. It is an ap3 melee weapon that strikes at initiative order, with its special rules (strength 6, forces successful inv. saves to be re-rolled) So technically I suppose it could look like whatever you wanted it to, but whatever you chose to have it look like, it would still function as stated above.

Oh how I wish that was true, however it is the axe, then the power weapon. So either a) it is a non power axe ap 3, and is such because its not "listed in the wargear as a power weapon" or b) its a named power weapon on a named character, and as such you are not permitted to change it. Even in a counts as army, this would be the issue. If it was like Huron Blackheart, and just listed as a power weapon, you could. But this is a named power weapon on a unique ic.

I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.

I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.

I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.

Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!

And on and on and on. Rule of Cool has gone right out the window for now. Not worth even taking the army out for a spin now.

I wish they filled the gap between things listed as power weapon and power weapons that have funny rules. They totally omitted things with power weapon as a rule.
This includes anything that is named and has the rule and no other rules. It has to be listed in the wargear as a power weapon to follow wysiwyg and it has to have rules unique to itself to be cut and dry ap3. Giant gap of anything with a name. Regardless of additional rules attached to it or if they make it unusual or not.

 Gloomfang wrote:
I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.

I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.

I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.

Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!

Stop playing with people who are asshats?

Just saying...

 CT GAMER wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.

I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.

I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.

Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!

Stop playing with people who are asshats?

Just saying...

Ok so no more tournaments.

jbunny wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.

I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.

I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.

Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!

Stop playing with people who are asshats?

Just saying...

Ok so no more tournaments.

Tournaments are an exception because you have to follow whatever rules/guidelines they state as being used for the event as a condition for participating in said event, so they very much would be in there right to say everything must be WYSIWYG, etc.

Otherwise I see no reason to give the guy grief about his conversions. It would take him about 1 minute to explain his conversions and what they count as before we played, and Id have NO isse with them.

The problem is when asshats try to use the rules as a weapon...

The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.

jbunny wrote:

Stop playing with people who are asshats?

Just saying...

Ok so no more tournaments.

CT gamer, I was just messing with ya. I completely agree that in friendly games it should not matter. Personally I always used Axes for my power weapons because i like the look of them. Now i either have to use them as Axes, remove them, or only play friends.

I prefer the last one myself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gloomfang wrote:

jbunny wrote:

Stop playing with people who are asshats?

Just saying...

Ok so no more tournaments.

They are fine for friendly play. It is the tournaments that I have issues. They were going to be my 1250pt army for some tournies. I was expecting the conversion factors to help with the painting rubric and they would be easy to transport and do a display board for them.

I have problems with my Nids at that low a point level. (It is me and not my bugs).

Still the point remains that I hear more arguements and see more people lose sportsman points from this stupid rule than any other rule.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.

It does say it's unique, but given the rules for a "unique" weapon, it does NOT qualify as one. Same word used two different ways.

 Gloomfang wrote:
I am so sick of this rule. It has made an entire army of mine unplayable. One that I spent a lot of time and money on.

I have a small Fleshtearers army from the BA book. I made a version of Dante that I named Cain and gave him a big old chainsword almost the size of Seth's so people knew it was not a normal chainsword (as in 5th it didn't matter what it looked like as long as people knew it was a power weapon). Fully custom built model, no pieces of Dante in him at all.

I also made a unit of Assault marines with some giant 2 handed chainaxes just becasue they looked cool. Again didn't matter as they were just power weapons and people knew that was what they represented.

Now I get grief about trying to play them. I have some folks who say
If your using Dante's rules it has to be an AXE and not a sword. Your trying to model for advantage!
Those Assault marines are MFA!
Marines can't take chain axes!
You can't use those as power weapons, the are chain weapons so they can only be chainswords!
Two handed weapons aren't allowed as power weapons unless they are lances, so those better be power lances!
Those are Axes so you better be using them as Power Axes!

And on and on and on. Rule of Cool has gone right out the window for now. Not worth even taking the army out for a spin now.

That's not the rule... that's the people you play it seems to me. How is modelling for advantage equipping your model with an option in the codex. If the codex says models can take power weapons, and doesn't specify which, you can chose any three of them. Therefore you wanting to give them an axe isn't MFA. if this is peoples argument then modelling models with plasma pistols after you paid for them would be classed as MFA under their opinion...its just silly.

 kcwm wrote:
It lists a named weapon and the name of the weapon says "AXE". There's no gray area there.

Good to know the name of the item tells all. So we now know that Heavy Flamers are heavy weapons, Assault Cannons are assault weapons, Dark Eldar are Eldar, and Fire Dragons are dragons.

THE SCYTHE OF RETRIBUTION IS A HAMMER!!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You cant really argue that dante has to be equipped with an power axe because the word "axe" only appears in the name of the weapon and in the rule/description in his forces entry. Being that no other weapon has that name or the rule/description "the axe mortalis" would mean that weapon is unique and therefore ap3 anyway.

To avoid confusion i just modeled my dante with a sword. If its supposed to be unique than its ap3 anyway and if its just a power weapon than you look to the model for its "type", and a sword is ap.3.

I suspect the sang guards weapons will eventually be FAQd to ap3 but if people want to give me axes im fine with it for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dufus0001 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Blood Angels Codex says that it's a unique weapon, as such it's S: User AP: 3. It's other rules are irrelevant, it's flat-out stated that it's unique.

It does say it's unique, but given the rules for a "unique" weapon, it does NOT qualify as one. Same word used two different ways.

but what if the word unique was intentionally used by the person that wrote the codex... who happens to be in the big boy credits for the BRB as well.