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dufus0001 wrote:
Read the thing about assaulting on your opponent's turn because your vehicle blew up and had an assault ramp. THAT will break the game!

Well technically the game works just fine with that one, it just unbalances the game drastically against transports, to a point most people realize it isn't intended to work that way. So they discuss pre-game and decide on a house rule or event FAQ. Most Tourney FAQs I have seen have overturned the RAW for the transports blowing up issue.

I feel like an event may choose either USR exempt and allowed to "look at model" or "Unusual=Catchall" as they are both RAI which take ignoring an aspect of the rules and are consistent and easy to enforce. Both fine choices... neither rooted in RAW tho As long as everyone at the event is applying the rules equally then it is fine. If you intend to make use of weapons which may be impacted, then ask your TO and make your case.

The name of the weapon is not the rule. Heavy Flamers must be heavy then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW said it's a power AXE, goes off ini 1 and gives +1 str.

dufus0001 wrote:
The name of the weapon is not the rule. Heavy Flamers must be heavy then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW said it's a power AXE, goes off ini 1 and gives +1 str.

Noone cares what GW customer service says, especially in this forum as per the tenets of this forum.

The name of the weapon IS the wargear entry, not "master-crafted power weapon" which you continue to ignore. The fact that the Axe of Mortalis (wargear entry) is able to reroll one missed power weapon hit in close combat (rules entry) is a close combat rule unique to the Axe of Mortalis.

Seriously Dufus, you have not put together a valid argument for your argument that isn't a mess of RAI wishful think with not only zero RAW support, but in fact goes blatantly against the RAW. If you want to continue to just want to make up rules, just preface your posts with how you would play it instead of trying to actually convince people that you have a RAW standing for your wishful thinking.

 juraigamer wrote:
Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"

I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)

Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.

Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.

That listing states what it states. We can do RAW or RAI but you need to choose one or the other and not just to suit your needs. The fact is thatwe can only use what the rules give us. Your choosing to ignore one set of rules to weakly attempt to force another definition that doesn't fit.

Its been stated way to many times that keeps being purposefully ignored. Power weapons are in only four categories and are detailed that they must not have special rules. If they don't have a special rule attached then we are directed to look at them in order to determine one of the four types. Since Dante's axe has a special rule "master crafted" we can not look at it to determine what kind of power weapon it is. The logical fallacy is that your attempting to pigeon hole "unique close combat rules" as something either one of a kind or not seen before and needed to be written out. When by any number of definitions have a unique close combat rule would fall under the realm of special rules given in the brb. I won't bore you with definitions from either dictionary options but please look as it makes it clear.
Special rules give a person,thing, or item an unique ability(yes unique also means unusual and not just one of a kind) that makes said person p,place,or thing unique amount those items. A predator is a tank but a Baal predator is a fast tank which makes it unique amoung predators. Master crafted,poison,etc makes those items unique when compared to others of their type. Yes you can purchase MC and it would make it str +ap3 since it is a unique close combat ability for that item.
I know you guys keep saying that special rules don't make them unique/unusual but your definition ignores the only other way to classify power weapons. You can't add rules when your told not to which is exactly what your trying to do.

chewielight wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"

I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)

Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.

Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.

That listing states what it states. We can do RAW or RAI but you need to choose one or the other and not just to suit your needs. The fact is thatwe can only use what the rules give us. Your choosing to ignore one set of rules to weakly attempt to force another definition that doesn't fit.

Its been stated way to many times that keeps being purposefully ignored. Power weapons are in only four categories and are detailed that they must not have special rules. If they don't have a special rule attached then we are directed to look at them in order to determine one of the four types. Since Dante's axe has a special rule "master crafted" we can not look at it to determine what kind of power weapon it is. The logical fallacy is that your attempting to pigeon hole "unique close combat rules" as something either one of a kind or not seen before and needed to be written out. When by any number of definitions have a unique close combat rule would fall under the realm of special rules given in the brb. I won't bore you with definitions from either dictionary options but please look as it makes it clear.
Special rules give a person,thing, or item an unique ability(yes unique also means unusual and not just one of a kind) that makes said person p,place,or thing unique amount those items. A predator is a tank but a Baal predator is a fast tank which makes it unique amoung predators. Master crafted,poison,etc makes those items unique when compared to others of their type. Yes you can purchase MC and it would make it str +ap3 since it is a unique close combat ability for that item.
I know you guys keep saying that special rules don't make them unique/unusual but your definition ignores the only other way to classify power weapons. You can't add rules when your told not to which is exactly what your trying to do.

I would reread both rules verbatim Chewie because you are wrong in how you come about to your conclusion. We can agree that the Axe of Mortalis is ap3, user str/init, but your reasoning is flawed.

I know this is slightly against the rules, but so many people keep talking about the Definition of Unique. This is from Dictionary.com. Please look at option 5

u·nique
   [yoo-neek] Show IPA
adjective
1.
existing as the only one or as the sole example; single; solitary in type or characteristics: a unique copy of an ancient manuscript.
2.
having no like or equal; unparalleled; incomparable: Bach was unique in his handling of counterpoint.
3.
limited in occurrence to a given class, situation, or area: a species unique to Australia.
4.
limited to a single outcome or result; without alternative possibilities: Certain types of problems have unique solutions.
5.
not typical; unusual: She has a very unique smile.


It appears that Unique CAN mean unusual. So if an item is listed as Unique, then it is possible for that item to be considered Unusual. Also unique does not mean the only one like it. (Though that is one possibility). So have two weapons that provide +2 Str does not prevent something from being Unique.

The issue is we have no idea what the designers intended.

Check out Codex: Tyranids for a blatant example. (I play 'nids, cope)

Page 33's text about "Unique weaponry" regarding things like Flesh hooks. They are on every Lictor, as well as DeathLeaper (for those who differentiate), and are listed as unique.

Rules can be unique to sets and groups, as well as specific individuals.

It does not change anything.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


You do not understand the rules at all.

If you buy a power weapon, the wargear entry is a power weapon, period. The weapon type and rules are established by looking at what the model is equipped at that point. If you choose to master-craft it, you are master-crafting that weapon type and rules established when you bought that power weapon.

Dante's wargear entry is the Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say power weapon, it specifically says Axe of Mortalis so therefore its type and rules are never determined by what it looks like. Never.

Perhaps you should read before posting, it clearly states his axe is a master crafted power weapon on page 63 of the BA codex.

Let me say that again, it says his axe is a master crafted power weapon

Same sequence, different method, a captain with a mastercrafted weapon is the same as dante with a master crafted weapon. Mastercrafted does not make a weapon "unusual"

Dante has an axe, get over it guys.

 juraigamer wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:


You do not understand the rules at all.

If you buy a power weapon, the wargear entry is a power weapon, period. The weapon type and rules are established by looking at what the model is equipped at that point. If you choose to master-craft it, you are master-crafting that weapon type and rules established when you bought that power weapon.

Dante's wargear entry is the Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say power weapon, it specifically says Axe of Mortalis so therefore its type and rules are never determined by what it looks like. Never.

Perhaps you should read before posting, it clearly states his axe is a master crafted power weapon on page 63 of the BA codex.

Let me say that again, it says his axe is a master crafted power weapon

Same sequence, different method, a captain with a mastercrafted weapon is the same as dante with a master crafted weapon. Mastercrafted does not make a weapon "unusual"
,
Dante has an axe, get over it guys.

I am going to walk you through this one so you don't hurt yourself. This is the first part of the rules regarding power weapons:

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

Dante's wargear entry says, AXE OF MORTALIS. The rules entry for the AXE OF MORTALIS says that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Do you see the difference between what the rule on pg 61 says and what Dante's entry says? Again, going to go slow for you;

Dante's wargear entry does NOT say master-crafted power weapon, it says AXE OF MORTALIS. Page 63 then tells you that the AXE OF MORTALIS is a master-crafted power weapon.

If you are still going to stumble over that difference, I highly doubt you will get the rest.

Juraigamer -

There are two things going here that you fail to comprehend with your last post.

1. Dantes "Axe" is a Power Weapon. Power Weapons can be one of many forms. If it is a regular Power Weapon then you are able to change and remodel the Weapon as an Axe, Sword, Maul, or Lance.

2. Dante's Ax is either a Unique Power weapon, OR it is a Power Weapon with Additional Special rules. If it is a Power Weapon with Additional Special rules, we are never given permission to look at the model to see what is it. So it does not matter how it is modeled, because we are never allowed to look at the weapon.

Just because the name is Axe, does not mean the rules state it is an Axe. You should really get over that. (Your words to everyone else)

The fact that it is a named weapon in its entry should be enough on its own to show its unique, rather than a basic power weapon.

Just because it uses rules for a power weapon with a slight change does not mean its no longer unique.

If it called it a master crafter power weapon, fair play, carry on.
It does not though, it has a name and its own entry for rules.

The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.

I'm looking at the 1998 BA Codex, and I see nothing under Dante about an axe. Just a Power Weapon.

Edit: Though I will add the picture of him on the next page does have him holding an axe.

How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

Happyjew wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.

I'm looking at the 1998 BA Codex, and I see nothing under Dante about an axe. Just a Power Weapon.

Edit: Though I will add the picture of him on the next page does have him holding an axe.

Well I AM looking at the second edition codex: angels of death, circa 1996. Dante's wargear reads: "Dante is armed with a power axe..." let's recall the rules for power axe in 2nd, there was a profile for one handed and two handed swings , neither affected initiative. In fact Dante's initiative in 2nd edition was 8.

Relevance ?

???

Food for thought: from the details on Dante page 92 2nd Ed codex " As a leader Dante is utterly fearless, and full of drive and initiative."

 kirsanth wrote:

The "Glaive Encarmine" is a rule unique to a Glaive Encarmine.
No other weapon has this unique rule.

Quoting this again because some people need to read it again.

The Axe Mortalis has a further special rule JUST ONE. It is NOT that it is master-crafted. It is NOT that it is a power weapon.

The Axe Mortalis has a further special rule called "Axe Mortalis" which you will find out how to play the "Axe Mortalis" special rule under Dante's entry in the Codex p.53.

The "Axe Mortalis" rule is unique to the weapon named "Axe Mortalis" which also happens to be an Axe.

So in the hands of Dante, the Axe Mortalis is a S4 AP3 I6 master-crafted power weapon.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The rules have stated that Dante has an axe since 2nd ed.
In the newest codex they just happen to give the axe a name.

I'm looking at the 1998 BA Codex, and I see nothing under Dante about an axe. Just a Power Weapon.

Edit: Though I will add the picture of him on the next page does have him holding an axe.

Well I AM looking at the second edition codex: angels of death, circa 1996. Dante's wargear reads: "Dante is armed with a power axe..." let's recall the rules for power axe in 2nd, there was a profile for one handed and two handed swings , neither affected initiative. In fact Dante's initiative in 2nd edition was 8.

Relevance ?

???

Food for thought: from the details on Dante page 92 2nd Ed codex " As a leader Dante is utterly fearless, and full of drive and initiative."

Well there was a stupid argument that calling it an axe doesn't make it an axe. So dante could have the axe mortalis an 8 foot lance and that is cool.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.

Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.

But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.

Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.

nkelsch wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.

Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.

But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
/quote]

Those people would be wrong. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine both have "further special rules" and these are indeed "unique special rules".

Some have misread the Unusual Power weapon to require a Unique Weapon. In fact it requires, like you said a Unique Special Rule. There is only one Axe Mortalis rule. The rule itself is by any definition unique. There is only one Glaive Encarmine special rule. It also is by any definition unique.

The rule is clear, but you must read it very carefully. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine both fit under Unusual Power Weapons.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.

Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.

But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.
/quote]

Those people would be wrong. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive encarmine both have "further special rules" and these are indeed "unique special rules".

Some have misread the Unusual Power weapon to require a Unique Weapon. In fact it requires, like you said a Unique Special Rule. There is only one Axe Mortalis rule. The rule itself is by any definition unique. There is only one Glaive Encarmine special rule. It also is by any definition unique.

The rule is clear, but you must read it very carefully. The Axe Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine both fit under Unusual Power Weapons.

But that is the argument... 'unique' is not undefined as a game term and people are all applying absurd and varied definitions of 'unique' to mean different things. I agree with the liberal interpretation which results in basically all special rules being unique, hence a 'catch all'. but with no clear definition, it becomes an arguefest requiring clarification.

The issue is any strict definition of UNIQUE leaves a hole in the rules... and they want to assume you can look at the weapon type for anything that doesn't meet the narrow definition of Unique they have chosen, which is not at all RAW in any capacity.

I don't think my definition of "unique" is narrow at all. In my opinion, any "special rule" not listed in the BRB (i.e. Two-handed or Mastercrafted) follows the rules for unusual weapons. Otherwise, there is almost no point in having rules for different power weapons, since most power weapons have at least 1 special rule.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The butthurt over having dante go at initiative one drives the issue.

It's quite shameful that Kharn, who went to int 1 isn't getting the same treatment, seeing as the majority of kharn and berzerker spammers are kids, were as the blood angels players are making a bigger scene than those players. Quite shameful.

The rulebook is clear, but people will be trying until the FAQ gets updated with it being treated as a power axe, until them let them enjoy their feeble attempts.

 juraigamer wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The butthurt over having dante go at initiative one drives the issue.

It's quite shameful that Kharn, who went to int 1 isn't getting the same treatment, seeing as the majority of kharn and berzerker spammers are kids, were as the blood angels players are making a bigger scene than those players. Quite shameful.

The rulebook is clear, but people will be trying until the FAQ gets updated with it being treated as a power axe, until them let them enjoy their feeble attempts.

The thing you're missing is that Kharn is a chaos character, it goes without saying that he doesn't get any love from GW.
They also took away Typhus' ability to use a psychic power and activate his force weapon in the same turn.

Because as a Nid player I have so many power weapons, and as an Eldar player I have so many power weapons without special rules (hint only only 4 different models can have a generic power weapon)

Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.

Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.

But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.

As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.

You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.

Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!

Jawaballs

I never said I was correct. Except when I stated it did not fall into either category. I only stated HIWPI.

well

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1821150a_99800101001_CommanderDanteResin_873x627.jpg

pretty much looks like an axe 100%

I feel it would be hard to argue it is not an axe.

IF you are using the GW-produced model of Dante it is an axe, but what if you are using a converted model that is armed with a sword or lance?

lol, is there a reason why you put your name at the end of your comment?

phempchildrenbob

nkelsch wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
How is it that this is still an issue? Or was the rulebook not clear enough on this matter?

The rulebook is clear... It is a power weapon with a "further special rule" but arguably not a "Unique Special rule". Which means you may not look at the model for the type OR make it unusual.

Which makes it a regular CCW with no extra effects.

But since that is an absurd application of RAW, we have to break RAW on either the first rule or the second rule to make it 'work' and that is called differing RAI. I believe applying a liberal definition of Unique makes it a catch all and breaks the least rules. Others believe translating 'further special rules' to mean 'further unique special rules' makes the first rule the default.

Both fine RAI, neither supported by RAW. Discuss with your opponents and events should clarify for consistency.

jawaballs wrote:Dante's weapon falls into neither of the categories on page 61.

Under types of Power Weapon it says "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has." Whatever you want to consider Master Crafted, Dante's weapon does not apply to this section because it does indeed have a "Further special rule" beyond Power Weapon. So, we do not determine it's abilities by looking at what the model is holding.

But it does not fall under Unusual Power Weapons either. Aside from the fact that the BA codex says it is a Unique Weapon, it has no unique rules. While Master Crafted is a "Further special rule" it is NOT a unique rule.

As such, the only agreement that can be had here is that it follows NEITHER of the guidelines for dealing with such a case.

You guys can be as snarky as you want to each other, but neither side is correct and this situation is going to come down to a tournament by tournament ruling. If you are using Dante in a tournament, present both cases to the TO before it begins, and abide by his decision. If you are playing a pickup game, and your opponent is a decent dude, he will agree to a coin toss.

Until this is clearly defined, a coin toss is the best we are going to get!

Jawaballs

I am going to have to keep bringing this up because people continue to get it wrong, including both of you;

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of PW it has."

Both of you please turn to page 82 of Codex Blood Angels and look under the wargear entry for Commander Dante. I am going to place it here if you do not have the codex;

Wargear:

Artificer Armour

Infernus pistol

The Axe of Mortalis

Jump pack

Frag and krak grenades

Iron Halo

Death Mask of Sanguinius

Now, will either of you please point out where Commander Dante's wargear says that he has a power weapon with further special rules? Having problems? That is because Commander Dante's wargear does NOT say he has a power weapon with further special rules, it says he has The Axe of Mortalis!!!! You do not apply the first part of the rule at all to Commander Dante!!

Now the second part of the rule;

If a power weapon has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Turn to page 53 of Codex Blood Angels and look at Commander Dante's wargear. I am going to place the relevant part here if you do not have the codex;

The Axe of Mortalis: The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon.

Here is where the two of you have flubbed it as well as others,

The rules for Commander Dante's wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Note, this is not saying that Commander Dante's has a master-crafted power weapon, this is saying that his wargear entry of The Axe of Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. As such, noting the emboldened text above in the second part of the rule, The Axe of Mortalis has it's OWN unique close combat rule of being able to re-roll one missed hit in close combat. Is master-crafted unique in the Warhammer 40k universe? No. Is it unique to the power weapon known as the Axe of Mortalis? Yes.

As such, the Axe of Mortalis is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon, user str/init, and allows one a re-roll of one missed hit in close combat.