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dufus0001 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?

Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).

And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.

Happyjew wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?

Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).

And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.

I mean if you follow that logic. I do not agree that master crafted or two handed makes it unusual. Or any "Special Rule" starting on pg 32.

dufus0001 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?

Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User). Now I'm verging on fluff here but hear me out; just because you hold an axe with two hands means it strikes faster (Ini) but with less force (AP)? How is being Two-Handed unusual?

Thank god there's no bastard sword in 40k. A hand-and-a-half sword would just make the game implode.

Actually, it is not impossible to have a two-handed power axe... Once a power weapon is defined as a type, there is no need to use the rules for determining types. There are weapons where they are explicitly defined as a 'Power axe' or 'Power maul'. If those power weapons have "further special rules" then you already have the type defined so there is no need to even bother with either of these two rules.

So nothing about 2-handed Power Axes breaks these rules for unspecified power weapons. Only Two-handed power weapons modeled like an axe which are two different things. Also, just because someone is using 2 hands to hold it, doesn't mean it is two-handed unless specified. And by the current rules Any 2 handed power axes are two handed power axes. Two handed power weapons are unique power weapons.

By your definition, All weapons look at the model regardless of special rules and then apply the special rules to the custom power weapon type. You have to ignore the rule to get your result as the only time you may look at the model is if a weapon has no further special rules. If Two-Handed and Master-Crafted are not special rules... nothing is.

Sorry, misunderstood you there.

Happyjew wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?

Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).

And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.

But we also cannot use 'look at the model' to determine either... There is a gaping hole in the ruleset for Power weapons WITH special rules which are not UNIQUE.

It only works currently for Plain power weapons or Power Weapons with UNIQUE special rules.

With no rules for Power weapons WITH special rules which are not UNIQUE. Either the game breaks or we assume one of the two 'options' apply. Which is the DEFAULT for PW with special rules? defaulting to the visual type, or defaulting to the catch all unusual?

This is not defined by RAW which is the problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dufus0001 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Do you somehow deny a Master Crafted Power weapon has "further special rules"?

Yeah, I've said before, it's impossible to have a Two-Handed Power Axe, the entry reading "Two-Handed Power Weapon" because of this. Even though you are modeled with an axe, it comes with a special rule and therefore has to be AP3 and Str (User).

And this is where you are wrong. It is only Str (User) AP3 if it has unique close combat rules. Two-handed is not a unique close combat rule, so you cannot use the Unusual Power Weapons rule to determine how to use it.

I mean if you follow that logic. I do not agree that master crafted or two handed makes it unusual. Or any "Special Rule" starting on pg 32.

But do you deny they are special rules? You can deny they are UNIQUE but you cannot deny they are 'further special rules' which means there is no permission to 'look at the model'

So how do you look at the model to determine the type without making up a house rule or breaking the game?

Read my effing post. I said if the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon." According to your logic, you cannot model to change the type of power weapon as it already has a special rule. I am not arguing if the entry says two handed power axe because that is CLEARLY defined.

dufus0001 wrote:
Read my effing post. I said if the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon." According to your logic, you cannot model to change the type of power weapon as it already has a special rule. I am not arguing if the entry says two handed power axe because that is CLEARLY defined.

How do you look at the model when having a special rule prevents you from having permission to do so?

Are you saying that a model with Special rules which are not UNIQUE default to looking at the model? No rule gives such permission but is a valid RAI position.

nkelsch wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:
Read my effing post. I said if the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon." According to your logic, you cannot model to change the type of power weapon as it already has a special rule. I am not arguing if the entry says two handed power axe because that is CLEARLY defined.

How do you look at the model when having a special rule prevents you from having permission to do so?

Are you saying that a model with Special rules which are not UNIQUE default to looking at the model? No rule gives such permission but is a valid RAI position.

That is exactly what I'm saying. It doesn't mesh with the RAW, however, if we go by RAW the only power weapons we can use are ones that have absolutely no other special rules, and ones in which actually have one or more unique close combat rules.

Of course then you have ranged weapons that are power weapons in close combat (does this count as a special rule?) and don't fall into any of the four categories.

Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
HIWPI:

Unique weapons are similar to Unique models. If there are only one of them, then they are unique (like Astorath the grim's "The Executioner's Axe")

Applying a special rule does not make a weapon unique. If it did any weapon with 'Unwieldy' would be unique and AP3...

And here is where we differ. In my opinion, the special rules and unique rules the rulebook refers to, are any special rules/abilities not found in the special rules section. So a mastercrafted or two-handed weapon would not qualify, but one that grants +1 Strength would.

I agree with that, not sure how we differ, it seems like we are saying the same thing.

and Special is equated to unique, so if it has unique special rules it is unusual.

Your claim is that the only weapons that are unique are ones that it is only possible to have 1 of in an army, such as the Titansword (there is no way to have more than 1 Titansword in your army, normally).

By my definition, the Executioner (see C:Eldar) would qualify for the unusual power weapon, as although you can have more than 1 in your army, it has a special rule not listed under "Special Rules" in the BRB.

 Crimson wrote:
At the moment you absolutely can change the weapon. It is just a power weapon. However, I'm pretty sure this will be FAQed away once they get around to it. Special characters have always had fixed gear.

There are quite a few that can be customized. The guard command specials can get all kinds of gear. SOME characters can even have different armour!

I would say that because the official ga model has an axe I would question or raise an eyebrow to it but would probably let it slide.

dufus0001 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Remember, Dante is not armed with a master-crafted power weapon. He is armed with the Axe of Mortalis, that uses the rules for a master-crafted power weapon.

Danté is not armed with a MC PW, he is armed with a MC PW: "The Axe Mortalis"

Do you see how this is contradictory?

How about you actually check Dante's army list entry. It does not say, MC PW: The Axe of Mortalis. It only says, "Axe of Mortalis. Once you check his unit entry you see that the rules for the Axe of Mortalis are that is is a MC PW. That is the why the first rule quoted does not apply to the Axe of Mortalis.

Now when you look at the second rule quoted, it does apply to the Axe of Mortalis becausethe rules dictate that it is a MC PW. It is a power weapon that allows a reroll to one missed hit in close combat. You can unsuccessfully put your opinion forth that MC is not unique enough, but that is not what the rule states is required. The Axe of Mortalis is a power weapon that can reroll one missed hit in close combat. That rule is unique to that power weapon, ie, the Axe of Mortalis in close combat.

I can play the being obtuse game if that is the route that you want to go along. A weapon with +2 strength in close combat is not unique because there are plenty of weapons that add a set value of strength in close combat. Or how about that a poisoned weapon that wounds on +2 is not unique because there are plenty of poisoned weapons that wound on a set value.

The only choices in this debate is to either be obstuse or accept that the Axe of Mortalis being able to reroll one hit in close combat is a unique rule for that power weapon hence it is ap3, user str/ini.

Wow there is a lot of in this thread. Lets look at FACTS.

Fact # 1 - Blood Angels Codex, page 53. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon"

Fact # 2 - BRB allows POWER WEAPONS to be modeled as a SWORD, an AXE or a MAUL or SPEAR. Each with slightly different rules. ALL ARE EQUAL FOR POINTS COST AND BALANCED.

Fact # 3 - EITHER Dante's weapon is in fact a power weapon(which i believe) and then can be modled as whatever the owner wants OR Dante's weapon is Unique (which I dont believe it is)

Dantes axe has a SPECIAL rule, not a UNIQUE rule. Master crafted is listed in the SPECIAL rules section... I WOULD consider Astoraths Axe as UNIQUE, not Dante's.

OK so his axe is not UNIQUE, it is still a POWER WEAPON and such can be modeled according to the rules laid out in the 6th ED BRB.

There is no rule in the BRB stating that a weapon has to follow its name. You cannot imply that the name has any effect on the weapon, there is no rule and no precedent for this assumption (you know what you say about assumptions). Dante could call the weapon anything he chooses.


To all you "thats modeling for advantage" people.... stop whining, Modeling for advantage is modeling your scout sentinal in a squating position. Modeling according to the rule book is fair game.... you dont have to like or agree with it.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Wow there is a lot of in this thread. Lets look at FACTS.

Fact # 1 - Blood Angels Codex, page 53. "The Axe Mortalis is a master crafted power weapon"

Fact # 2 - BRB allows POWER WEAPONS to be modeled as a SWORD, an AXE or a MAUL or SPEAR. Each with slightly different rules. ALL ARE EQUAL FOR POINTS COST AND BALANCED.

That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. There is no explicit permission to choose one of 4 profiles and no permission to model custom options... We assume we are allowed to but it is not actually 'allowed' in the rulebook.

Fact # 3 - EITHER Dante's weapon is in fact a power weapon(which i believe) and then can be modled as whatever the owner wants OR Dante's weapon is Unique (which I dont believe it is)

That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. It says look at the model if it has no further special rules. Does it have a special rule? Is master Crafted a special rule? It is listed under special rules in the rulebook. If a Power Weapon has a special rule, then you skip the rule allowing you to 'look at the model to determine the type.'

Dantes axe has a SPECIAL rule, not a UNIQUE rule. Master crafted is listed in the SPECIAL rules section... I WOULD consider Astoraths Axe as UNIQUE, not Dante's.

OK so his axe is not UNIQUE, it is still a POWER WEAPON and such can be modeled according to the rules laid out in the 6th ED BRB.

That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. To get the ability to 'look at the weapon' the power weapon must have 'no further special rules'. Not 'no further UNIQUE special rules'. The power weapon has a special rule so you do not get the ability to look at the model regardless if it is a unique special rule or not. Not being unique either as a weapon or as a special rule doesn't give you permission to look at the model.

There is no rule in the BRB stating that a weapon has to follow its name. You cannot imply that the name has any effect on the weapon, there is no rule and no precedent for this assumption (you know what you say about assumptions). Dante could call the weapon anything he chooses.

That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that and there is precident with Lychguard Hyperface swords.

To all you "thats modeling for advantage" people.... stop whining, Modeling for advantage is modeling your scout sentinel in a squating position. Modeling according to the rule book is fair game.... you dont have to like or agree with it.

That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that. Nothing gives you permission to squat sentinels or do basically whatever you want. Nothing you have said actually is supported by a rule in the 6th edition rulebook. Most of what you have quoted is based upon unspoken gamer convention which changes from event to event and player to player.

nkelsch. Your argument has merit. But your condescending tone does not.

 azreal13 wrote:
nkelsch. Your argument has merit. But your condescending tone does not.

Well the person he was responding to was supposedly stating "facts". Nk just chose to start each of his responses with a real fact,

"That's nice. The rulebook doesn't actually say that."

The tone was just fine to what he was responding.

You seriously think starting every paragraph with "that's nice" is perfectly acceptable and in no way patronising?

It was done deliberately to generate a tone or elicit a response. If I picked up on it then others may and so it is at the very least ill considered.

As for the post responded to, while some of the wording may have been off or not 100% accurate, the broad strokes were broadly what others in this thread are arguing, just because somebody isn't exactly right but the general gist is obvious there's no need to single it out like that. It's just point scoring and pedantic.

So what happens to Custom Chapters using Dante as lord XYZ, but in 5th the actual weapon didn't matter so XYZ was modelled with a Sword. Where does that leave him now??

Nklesch, please address the issue of whether or not you may model for a Two-Handed Power Axe, given that the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon" and what its rules would be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 redkommando wrote:
So what happens to Custom Chapters using Dante as lord XYZ, but in 5th the actual weapon didn't matter so XYZ was modelled with a Sword. Where does that leave him now??

Untouched I would think. He's not technically Danté, and his weapon could have been "The Sword Mortalis" from the start for all the people out there who love labels.

dufus0001 wrote:
Nklesch, please address the issue of whether or not you may model for a Two-Handed Power Axe, given that the entry says "Two-Handed Power Weapon" and what its rules would be.

I have said this clearly about 6 times, but I will try to explain how the rules work again:

It has a "further special rule" so you may not look at the model to see what type it is ever.

So you have two options:
*Unique is undefined, so all special rules from Clause 1 count and it is an Unusual special weapon because it was intended as a "catch all" rule
or
*Two-Handed does not meet the the requirements of being unique... so the rules for Unusual special weapons are not applied. The game breaks, the power weapon meets no criteria and has no effects.

What cannot happen is for it to default back to 'look at the model' because the only permission to do so requires no "further special rules" and it cannot be argued MC or 2-handed is *NOT* a special rule... where it can be argued the ambiguous UNIQUE part is being met. So of the two options we are left with, I go with the "catch all" rule as it requires an ambiguous application of Unique opposed to making up house rules like "look at the model" as the default state of power weapons is.

I do believe they intended 'unusual power weapons' to be a catch all until they could explicitly define what they wanted people to have and eventuall 'look at the model' and 'unique' will become obsolete rules to help with edition transition.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

redkommando wrote:

So what happens to Custom Chapters using Dante as lord XYZ, but in 5th the actual weapon didn't matter so XYZ was modelled with a Sword. Where does that leave him now??

Untouched I would think. He's not technically Danté, and his weapon could have been "The Sword Mortalis" from the start for all the people out there who love labels.

Well the ability to 'counts as' SCs is not supported by rules and is supported by unspoken social convention, usually with you apply rules as if the conversion was the original model in all circumstances... Changing his axe would be seen as some as the same as giving Ghazghkull a 60mm base or making a Special character twice as small to gain the ability to hide LOS. When you boil it down, nothing gives you permission to modify the model or 'counts as' without opponent consent and the rules don't allow you to 'choose' any of the 4 power weapon types, only to look at the model.

So for your dante 'counts as' with a Sword Mortalis to be game legal you need opponent agreement, or TO approval in a tourney and there are no rules to support your position. I fully expect you to find opponents who would see it as MFA and they wouldn't be wrong as whenever there are no RAW or Defined rules as power weapons are... people have every right to have differing opinions.

But this is all academic as Dante either has a Unusual Power weapon or a useless board with a nail in it. He never has the ability to have 'an axe' because he never gets to 'look at the model' to determine. It will take a FAQ update to make his AXE and AXE.

Huron on the otherhand...

WAIT so if i have a striking scorpion not only does it have to be a scorpion but if it has a bitting blade does it have to chomp on my oppenets models i dunno i feel i would be MFA if they didnt..

The only weapons that are unusual are:

"Unusual Power Weapons
Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry." (61)

If it does not have unique rules it is not a unusual power weapon.

And there within lies the problem. A mastercrafted power weapon has a special rule, but not a unique close combat rule, and thus falls into neither category.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The only weapons that are unusual are:

"Unusual Power Weapons
Many models have unusual power weapons that have one or more unique rules. If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry." (61)

If it does not have unique rules it is not a unusual power weapon.

First of all, UNIQUE is not defined as a game term so we really don't know if it is a UNIQUE special rule...

and same page:
Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

So Axe Mortalis has a special rule which means it is not an axe, sword, maul or lance.

So it is a board with a nail in it because it is given no effects as it doesn't meet any of the requirements of any of the rules. Due to having a special rule, you may never 'look at the model'.

EXACTLY!! I'd say approx. 95% of all power weapons are not unusable since they do not fit in either category.

Happyjew wrote:
EXACTLY!! I'd say approx. 95% of all power weapons are not unusable since they do not fit in either category.

And of the two categories... one is rigid and unmistakably clear and one is wishywashy and posed as a 'catch all' clause to the other rule.

Either they need to add 'Unique' to the first clause, and define Unique to mean anything but USRs, Or they need to define Unique to mean any special rule or remove Unique.

I feel everything is Unique until otherwise defined in erratta as of the two sides of the rule... it is the only one with wiggle room. Assuming you can look at the model can never work under any interpretation and requires you to make up rules.

Unique is well defined in the Engilsh language. we should use that definition, as the BRB does not define it.

The BRB does not define a lot of words, but we still know what they mean.

However it is clear that unusual weapons have unique rules.

If a rule is not unique it does not fall into this category, and either:

1) we assume Special means unique in the power weapon entry.

or

2) The game breaks and we can not use those weapons because they do nothing.

I am inclined to play it as #1 as it is does not bring the game to a screeching halt.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Unique is well defined in the Engilsh language. we should use that definition, as the BRB does not define it.

The BRB does not define a lot of words, but we still know what they mean.

However it is clear that unusual weapons have unique rules.

If a rule is not unique it does not fall into this category, and either:

1) we assume Special means unique in the power weapon entry.

or

2) The game breaks and we can not use those weapons because they do nothing.

I am inclined to play it as #1 as it is does not bring the game to a screeching halt.

Yes, but you can also play it as Unusual special weapons being a catch all which works just fine... You are hung up on UNIQUE as it furthers your agenda and you are totally ignoring the part which says "further special rules" which is clear as crystal as we do know 100% what is a special rule is... and Master-crafted is a special rule which is even called a special rule.

So to overturn a clause which says special rule because you are applying an undefined version of UNIQUE to the rulebook and then assuming the first rule meant to say Unique requires changing of rules to work against RAW.

Pg 61, "If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

You can never argue you have permission to 'look at the model' to determine type because the weapon does have a 'further special rule'.

To claim that this clause is referring to UNIQUE rules because it doesn't say it is unique and a rule after this one says UNIQUE , and that you are applying an ambiguous definition of unique because we really have no clear ability to know which CC rules are unique even with your oxford dictionary definition breaks way to many rules and makes way to many assumptions.

It also says unique close combat rules. Master Crafted and Two-Handed are not specific to close combat.

nkelsch wrote:
Yes, but you can also play it as Unusual special weapons being a catch all which works just fine... You are hung up on UNIQUE as it furthers your agenda and you are totally ignoring the part which says "further special rules" which is clear as crystal as we do know 100% what is a special rule is... and Master-crafted is a special rule which is even called a special rule.

1) I have no agenda, I read the rules and make the call, I have no bias either way.

2) playing weapons with special rules as unique is not an option, as Master Crafted is, by no ones definition, unique to Dante's Sword.

3) the RAW is that Power weapons with non-unique special rules are not covered by the BRB, so we have to kind of make up rules anyway. It seems like unusual power weapons halve to have unique rules (Such as Asteroth's Axe) to be unusual power weapons, so power weapons with non-unique rules do not fall into this category.