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 DeathReaper wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Yes, but you can also play it as Unusual special weapons being a catch all which works just fine... You are hung up on UNIQUE as it furthers your agenda and you are totally ignoring the part which says "further special rules" which is clear as crystal as we do know 100% what is a special rule is... and Master-crafted is a special rule which is even called a special rule.

1) I have no agenda, I read the rules and make the call, I have no bias either way.

2) playing weapons with special rules as unique is not an option, as Master Crafted is, by no ones definition, unique to Dante's Sword.

3) the RAW is that Power weapons with non-unique special rules are not covered by the BRB, so we have to kind of make up rules anyway. It seems like unusual power weapons halve to have unique rules (Such as Asteroth's Axe) to be unusual power weapons, so power weapons with non-unique rules do not fall into this category.

1)Your definition of UNIQUE is not defined within the ruleset and UNIQUE = anything but BRB Special Rules also doesn't follow the dictionary definition either and is a RAI arbitrary line.

2) Almost No 'special rules' will ever be unique because many weapons share types of effects which are not BRB 'special rules' which means using the dictionary definition to apply rules is just as ambiguous and hard to define and label as drawing an arbitrary line that all non-USRs are unique.

3)The RAW is that power weapons with special rules unique or not, may never under any circumstances 'look at the model' to determine the type of power weapon. The only way you may 'look at the weapon' is for power weapons with *NO* special rules of any type. A Master Crafted Power Weapon does not fall into this catergory.

There are a lot of words in the BRB that are not defined within the ruleset.

Something that is unique is just that, one of a kind, not duplicated etc.

 DeathReaper wrote:
There are a lot of words in the BRB that are not defined within the ruleset.

Something that is unique is just that, one of a kind, not duplicated etc.

But there are weapon effects which are had by multiple weapons... Like +2str

Basically almost no special rules are unique. What we get is a definition of:

All brb special rules are not unique, and about 50%of the special rule effects are not unique, and no clear definition what actually is unique or which exists on multiple weapons.

Which means your definition of unique breaks the game as it makes almost all the power weapons unable to be unique... But if they have special rules you may never look at the weapon. That part is undeniable as you may never look at the model to determine the type if you have ANY special rule.

Please explicitly define what kind of special rules become unique? It can't be done even by quoting dictionary definitions. All BRB special rules not being Unique is by no means exhausted by the dictionary definition,and such an interpretation would need every single special rule defined if it is considered unique or not which is not supported by the rules.

The rules work fine with a liberal catch all version of unique... And it breaks if you apply your definition... And then to make your definition work, you have to add a house rule not supported by the rules to allow you to 'look at the model'.

All BRB special rules aren't unique but 50% special rule effects are not unique? ...What? What exactly do you mean by special rule effects and how are they different from special rules?

How exactly does most power weapons not being unusual or having the ability to model for a specific power weapon even if it has a USR going break the game? (They are they same thing) Consider the FACT that they are all balanced, otherwise they would have different point costs.

You cannot quote the dictionary for 40k rules. Explicitly define what kind of special rules become unique? Ok:
"Blood Reaver: Blood Reaver is a two-handed weapon. Hits from Blood Reaver are resolved at Strength 8 and have the Rending special rule."

The section in bold is a unique rule. Two-Handed and Rending are special rules but not unique. Is there another weapon with all three of these rules together? No? Sounds unique to me.

Want another?

"The Executioner's Axe: The Executioner's Axe is a two-handed power weapon that strikes at strength 6. Successful invulnerable saves taken against wounds caused by the Executioner's Axe must be re-rolled."

There is not another weapon out there like this. Unique.

Look at The Sanguinor's Glaive Encarmine: Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapon. Is there anything unique about it? Hardly, not only are there other Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapons, there are other units that use the same weapon. Therefore it is not unusual or unique.

"Axe Mortalis" is a unique special rule "Axe Mortalis" is the name of the special rule. The further rules for the Axe Mortalis is the "Axe Mortalis rule" . You'll find the additional rules for the "Axe Mortalis" under Dantes entry in the Codex.

Axe Mortalis fits under Unusual.

(these are facts)

dufus0001 wrote:


Look at The Sanguinor's Glaive Encarmine: Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapon. Is there anything unique about it? Hardly, not only are there other Two-Handed Master Crafted Power Weapons, there are other units that use the same weapon. Therefore it is not unusual or unique.

But it is a special rule... and if you have a special rule on the power weapon you may NEVER look at the model to determine the type.

And your definition of what counts as UNIQUE is hardly a RAW one... just a possible interpretation as no two people will come to the same conclusion, especially of the examples like +2 Strength which is a common special rule for weapons but not a BRB special rule.

Let's say your definition was RAW and was agreed upon by everyone... You may still not overturn the very clear clause of 'further special rules' which is the only way to gain permission to look at the model to determine the type. *ANY* special rule regardless of being unique prevents you from looking at the model to determine the type. You can't just make up a definition for UNIQUE and claim RAW then blatantly disregard the first rule and look at the model because you feel like it.

nkelsch, you have yet to use the word "unusual" as per how it's the rule for this is worded. I have said before unique is not unusual. It can be unique till the cows come home, still doesn't make it unusual.

I really like in your last paragraph how you say "Alright, we all agree, let's give yours a shot...and you STILL can't do it!" Very fair, very fair.

You have failed to tell me why a master crafted weapon is unique and therefore should qualify as unusual. Consider that there are MANY MANY MANY master crafted power weapons out there making master crafted weapons, not unique.

dufus0001 wrote:
nkelsch, you have yet to use the word "unusual" as per how it's the rule for this is worded. I have said before unique is not unusual. It can be unique till the cows come home, still doesn't make it unusual.

I really like in your last paragraph how you say "Alright, we all agree, let's give yours a shot...and you STILL can't do it!" Very fair, very fair.

You have failed to tell me why a master crafted weapon is unique and therefore should qualify as unusual. Consider that there are MANY MANY MANY master crafted power weapons out there making master crafted weapons, not unique.

You have failed to tell me why a power weapon with a special rule is allowed to look at the model to determine the type when the rule explicitly says it is not allowed to. Consider that Master Crafted is explicitly called a special rule, how do you claim it is not a special rule and totally do the 100% opposite and look at the model without any permission to do so?

"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"
"If a model's wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has"

Your definition of UNIQUE is not at all supported by any rule or game terms... 5 different people can have 5 different interpretations on which rules and effects count and which ones don't but all 5 of those people are forced 100% to agree all those rules, unique or not are 'special rules' and therefor you may not look at the model to determine the type under any circumstances.

How are you avoiding that the first rule you apply simply requires special rules not unique special rules?

First of all, calm down. Breathe. No reason to get an ulcer because of this game...

No further special rules means to me if it has rules that are not covered in the special rules section. Special rules are not unique. I do not believe that an unusual weapon is one that contains rules only from the special rule section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to know why you like the restriction on these weapons as your stance on the subject would suggest.

dufus0001 wrote:
]
I want to know why you like the restriction on these weapons as your stance on the subject would suggest.

He is probably arguing objectively instead of subjectively - ie what the rules say, not what he likes or dislikes.

I have not been shy to admit I have an agenda on this one, albeit a small one. I just want Danté to go off at ini 6.

I would love for Danté's weapon to be unusual, then I don't have to change my model. That is still not the way I read it though.

I do not like the restriction because choosing a weapon can be a strategical part of the game. The more I can apply my own tactics, the more I enjoy the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
"Axe Mortalis" is a unique special rule "Axe Mortalis" is the name of the special rule. The further rules for the Axe Mortalis is the "Axe Mortalis rule" . You'll find the additional rules for the "Axe Mortalis" under Dantes entry in the Codex.

Axe Mortalis fits under Unusual.

(these are facts)

Wasn't going to say anything at first but...

Fact is: His weapon is called "The Axe Mortalis." NOWHERE is "The Axe Mortalis" a RULE. The RULE it has is Master Crafted Power Weapon.

Where in the warp did you pull this out of?

I have been in pretty much every single one of these threads but it was not until this one that I finally felt I understood how the writers wrote these rules so we do not reach a game breaking moment.

1. Pg61 Types of Power Weapons:

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:......

.

Now look at Ulrik the Slayer from the SW codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has a power weapon, that has no further special rules. So we are ordered to look at the model to tell which type of power weapon he is equipped with.

Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.

2. Pg 61 Unusual Power Weapons

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Now if we look to the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis we see that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Notice the difference between the above, "power weapon as a wargear entry" in the first quoted rule and "power weapon as a rules entry" for the Axe of Mortalis because that is the key difference between the two of them.

So the first rule does not apply in the slightest to the Axe of Mortalis, because Commander Dante's (the model) wagear does not say he has a power weapon, his wargear entry says he has the Axe of Mortalis.

This is where the second rule kicks in because the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis tell you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, thus telling you that the Axe of Mortalis, a power weapon, has its own (the Axe of Mortalis') unique close combat rule of rerolling one missed hit in close combat.

This resolves the game breaking point we get to where we say that the Axe of Mortalis is obviously not a power weapon with no additional special rules, but now what? In addition is clarifies an additional argument that keeps being made about purchasing the upgrade to master-craft a weapon would somehow makes it unique, which it doesn't. That can be saved for another thread however as it would derail this topic.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.

Now look at a Space Marine Chaplain. They have a Crozius. According to your argument, you can not use the listed rule. Granted, however, that it was FAQ's to be a Power Maul...

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I have been in pretty much every single one of these threads but it was not until this one that I finally felt I understood how the writers wrote these rules so we do not reach a game breaking moment.

1. Pg61 Types of Power Weapons:

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:......

.

Now look at Ulrik the Slayer from the SW codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has a power weapon, that has no further special rules. So we are ordered to look at the model to tell which type of power weapon he is equipped with.

Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.

2. Pg 61 Unusual Power Weapons

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Now if we look to the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis we see that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Notice the difference between the above, "power weapon as a wargear entry" in the first quoted rule and "power weapon as a rules entry" for the Axe of Mortalis because that is the key difference between the two of them.

So the first rule does not apply in the slightest to the Axe of Mortalis, because Commander Dante's (the model) wagear does not say he has a power weapon, his wargear entry says he has the Axe of Mortalis.

This is where the second rule kicks in because the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis tell you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, thus telling you that the Axe of Mortalis, a power weapon, has its own (the Axe of Mortalis') unique close combat rule of rerolling one missed hit in close combat.

This resolves the game breaking point we get to where we say that the Axe of Mortalis is obviously not a power weapon with no additional special rules, but now what? In addition is clarifies an additional argument that keeps being made about purchasing the upgrade to master-craft a weapon would somehow makes it unique, which it doesn't. That can be saved for another thread however as it would derail this topic.

Except that Master Crafted is NOT a Close Combat Rule. Read it again. Here I'll make it easy for you: "Weapon with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon." This applies to SHOOTING ATTACKS as well.

Being able to model what type of power weapon you want, even if it has a million non-unique special rules, is NOT going to break the game... Explain that one to me.

dufus0001 wrote:

Except that Master Crafted is NOT a Close Combat Rule. Read it again. Here I'll make it easy for you: "Weapon with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon." This applies to SHOOTING ATTACKS as well.

Being able to model what type of power weapon you want, even if it has a million non-unique special rules, is NOT going to break the game... Explain that one to me.

You completely misread his post. He was saying that the rule for Dantes weapon is "The Axe Mortalis", not Master Crafted or Power Weapon. These USRs are the two parts of the rule "The Axe Mortalis".

So can anyone else take a weapon with the rule "The Axe Mortalis"? If not then it is a Unique rule and therefore is S:user AP3.

dufus0001 wrote:
His weapon is called "The Axe Mortalis." NOWHERE is "The Axe Mortalis" a RULE. The RULE it has is Master Crafted Power Weapon

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power Weapon is not a USR by ANY means.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So can anyone else take a weapon with the rule "The Axe Mortalis"? If not then it is a Unique rule and therefore is S:user AP3.

Can anyone take a weapon with the same RULE SET as "The Axe Mortalis?" You bet your fething arse!

Happyjew wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.

Now look at a Space Marine Chaplain. They have a Crozius. According to your argument, you can not use the listed rule. Granted, however, that it was FAQ's to be a Power Maul...

Which actually supports my point because they had to FAQ the Space Marine Chaplain Crozius to be a power maul or else it fell into that same game breaking hole.

dufus0001 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I have been in pretty much every single one of these threads but it was not until this one that I finally felt I understood how the writers wrote these rules so we do not reach a game breaking moment.

1. Pg61 Types of Power Weapons:

If a models wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has:......

.

Now look at Ulrik the Slayer from the SW codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has a power weapon, that has no further special rules. So we are ordered to look at the model to tell which type of power weapon he is equipped with.

Now look at Commander Dante from the BA codex: Him, as a model, has wargear that says he has the Axe of Mortalis. Not a power weapon like Ulrik, but the Axe of Mortalis. So we are not allowed by the above rule to look to the model to see what type of power weapon he is equipped with.

2. Pg 61 Unusual Power Weapons

If a power weapon has its own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry.

Now if we look to the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis we see that it is a master-crafted power weapon. Notice the difference between the above, "power weapon as a wargear entry" in the first quoted rule and "power weapon as a rules entry" for the Axe of Mortalis because that is the key difference between the two of them.

So the first rule does not apply in the slightest to the Axe of Mortalis, because Commander Dante's (the model) wagear does not say he has a power weapon, his wargear entry says he has the Axe of Mortalis.

This is where the second rule kicks in because the rules entry for the Axe of Mortalis tell you that it is a master-crafted power weapon, thus telling you that the Axe of Mortalis, a power weapon, has its own (the Axe of Mortalis') unique close combat rule of rerolling one missed hit in close combat.

This resolves the game breaking point we get to where we say that the Axe of Mortalis is obviously not a power weapon with no additional special rules, but now what? In addition is clarifies an additional argument that keeps being made about purchasing the upgrade to master-craft a weapon would somehow makes it unique, which it doesn't. That can be saved for another thread however as it would derail this topic.

Except that Master Crafted is NOT a Close Combat Rule. Read it again. Here I'll make it easy for you: "Weapon with the Master-crafted special rule allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn with that weapon." This applies to SHOOTING ATTACKS as well.

Being able to model what type of power weapon you want, even if it has a million non-unique special rules, is NOT going to break the game... Explain that one to me.

As has been mentioned you are missing the point.

The Axe of Mortalis (Dante's wargear) has it's own unique close combat rules (a master-crafted power weapon) which allows it to reroll one missed hit in close combat. The wording of the second rule is not asking you to make a check of any and all weapons in the galaxy for uniqueness, just if that specific weapon has its OWN unique close combat rules.

I check my RAW arguments against if they allow the rules to mesh properly within the wording of the rule. In this case, what I have presented solves the game breaking issue created by the scenario that people are putting forward that the Axe of Mortalis is too special to not be identified by what is on the model, but not unique enough to be an unusual weapon.

Axe of Mortalis is AP3, user str/init per the RAW argument I have presented.

Dang this has gone on for way to long. Good thing the C:BA tells you that all weapons that are written out and named are unique.

Codex>brb after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since there is no rule for unique that is why can only go by something that is a rule. Unless you are told something is unique (like NFW) or in the case of C:BA just saying.

Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"

I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)

Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.

Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.

"Unique" is not required; simply having any special rule at all prevents the weapon from gaining one of the other categories. "Unique" only kicks in when you try to apply the unusual power weapon rules.

So, if you have a non-unique power weapon with a special rule, it falls through a crack in the rules and gets no AP or other bonuses at all.

Tyr, please go reread Master Crafted and tell me why that only applies to close combat.

What I'm saying is the rule of Master Crafted is not unique, I am happy to admit that "The Axe Mortalis" does indeed have special rules, but these are not "further" special rules because they are covered in the special rule section, nor are they specific to close combat.

Btw, I called GW about this... I REALLY did not like their answer... If anyone cares to hear it then I'll share but there's no need for this to turn ugly.

 juraigamer wrote:
Right right, and that listing in the BA book is just to explain that the rules for a weapon are in a different section than normal, being listed such a way doesn't automatically make a weapon "unusual"

I could pay for a power weapon on a captain, then mastercraft it, by the words and such of nkelsch that makes it unique (which doesn't work)

Dante's weapon is the axe mortalis, it counts as a power weapon with the mastercrafted rule. The model is holding what one would call an axe. He has and must abide by the rules of a power axe.

Mastercrafted does not make a weapon unusual. I cannot mastercraft any weapon to make it a standard ap3 power weapon, that does not work.

You do not understand the rules at all.

If you buy a power weapon, the wargear entry is a power weapon, period. The weapon type and rules are established by looking at what the model is equipped at that point. If you choose to master-craft it, you are master-crafting that weapon type and rules established when you bought that power weapon.

Dante's wargear entry is the Axe of Mortalis. His wargear does not say power weapon, it specifically says Axe of Mortalis so therefore its type and rules are never determined by what it looks like. Never.

rigeld2 wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:
]
I want to know why you like the restriction on these weapons as your stance on the subject would suggest.

He is probably arguing objectively instead of subjectively - ie what the rules say, not what he likes or dislikes.

I play orks, I have no weapons impacted by these rules. I also play orks which means it almost never makes any difference which version of a power weapon you have because they all pretty much deny me armor saves and kill my guys.

The assumption that 'further special rules' instantly discounts all BRB special rules is a new RAI...

As soon as people can admit there is a game-breaking hole, the sooner their RAI can be discussed reasonably. When people are still trying to claim RAW allows their version of the rules, I can't take them seriously anymore. Admitting the RAW never allows you to look at the model when it has any special rule and most weapons then break is the first step to deciding the what the RAI should be.

FYI: Crozarius and Hyperphase swords being explicitly turned into a maul and sword shows GW doesn't give a piss about balance and intends to go down the path of cinematic models and what is available to them. When they electronically update codexes and get around to FAQing, I feel they will totally limit options on many units not because of balance, but simply because of the GW universe and how the models look. But feel free to smash your models with a hammer and rebuild them with potentially illegal weapon options I would wait a month and go paint a Stormtalon or something.

But I don't think you realize your way of defining it is not universal. Yes, it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.

dufus0001 wrote:
Tyr, please go reread Master Crafted and tell me why that only applies to close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I called GW about this... I REALLY did not like their answer... If anyone cares to hear it then I'll share but there's no need for this to turn ugly.

I never once did say that it only applies to close combat. However the rules entry we are talking about is talking about a master-crafted power weapon and thus we are talking about the ability to reroll one missed hit in close combat.

The part you keep stumbling over is not understanding that the second rule is talking about a unique rule in close combat not in the grand scheme of the Warhammer 40k universe, just that the wargear entry, in this case the Axe of Mortalis, has its OWN unique rule in close combat.

nkelsch wrote:
As soon as people can admit there is a game-breaking hole

This is NOT going to break the game! >.<

dufus0001 wrote:
But I don't think you realize your way of defining it is not universal. Yes, it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.

Really? What is the wargear entry for Sanguinary Guard in the BA codex? Here is a hint, it ISN'T two-handed master-crafted power weapon.

Read the thing about assaulting on your opponent's turn because your vehicle blew up and had an assault ramp. THAT will break the game!

dufus0001 wrote:
it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.

It does.

The "Glaive Encarmine" is a rule unique to a Glaive Encarmine.
No other weapon has this unique rule.

 kirsanth wrote:

dufus0001 wrote:
it works for "The Axe Mortalis" but does not work at all for a Glaive Encarmine.

It does.

The "Glaive Encarmine" is a rule unique to a Glaive Encarmine.
No other weapon has this unique rule.

The best summary I have yet to read in this thread.