Some of their higher-ups look like vampires, they have an entire company that is completely over-wealmed by rage. I know the Astartes are allowed lee-way when other sectors of the Imperium are not, but the Blood Angels seem to be above and beyond what any of the other marine chapters have done.
It seems like the Inquisition would look very dimly on this, unlike other scuffles this would not be because of ruffled feathers or a natural distrust of authority, rather because the entire chapter would seem, to outsiders, to be Khornite.
1) They are one of the original chapters. They're an institution of the Imperium. Inertia is a powerful ally. 2) They still fight for mankind. If the Blood Angels are coming, it's to save you. 3) The Blood Angels do a good job of covering up their weirder habits. The Astartes in general are pretty independent from the Inquisition. 4) As you've said, Astartes get a free pass. Despite the fact that the Imperium has a dim view of mutants and psychics, Astartes are allowed into the party despite being transhuman weirdos. 5) The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.
Don't forget, again, the Astartes aren't part of the Imperium. Each chapter is it's own thing, has its own rules, and basically just pays as much respect to the Imperium as it wants to. Some get away with more due to their standing, though it takes serious balls and influence for an Inquisitor to take down a chapter for anything but the most blatant heresy. First founding chapters basically get away with the most due to their long history.
Hell, the Space Wolves have gotten away with straight up murdering an Inquisitor because Grimnar didn't like what he was being told.
When it happens to the Space Wolves, then the Blood Angels would have to worry about being next, til then its because they're from the original legions and plot armor.
SaintTom wrote: When it happens to the Space Wolves, then the Blood Angels would have to worry about being next, til then its because they're from the original legions and plot armor.
So if you're from the original legions, you can commit heresy just fine?
I only say that because for all intents and purposes, the Death company *are* heretics.
And just look at this guy:
I mean. That's a mutant. Right there. Clearly a bad egg to boot.
How is Astorath a mutant exactly? What "heresy" are you referring to?
The Blood Angels also do not have "an entire company that is completely over-wealmed by rage." The Death Company is a separate part of the Chapter's organization, not a proper Company.
The High Lords of Terra are well aware of the Flaw, though. They know that it is slowly destroying the Blood Angels and their successors and have deemed that it is punishment enough for their slights against the other branches of the Imperium. Some successors have already been destroyed by the Flaw (such as the Flesh Eaters), some are on the verge of destruction because of it (Flesh Tearers), some are rarely at full strength because of it (Angels Encarmine, Angels Sanguine), and some have been excommunicated due possibly to atrocities committed by their fallen (Knights of Blood).
I honestly believe that you do not understand what the Black Rage or the Red Thirst is, or you're just trolling.
I don't see how the Blood Angels are above other chapters. The Blood Angels keep their issues in check unlike the Flesh Tearers who have a hard time keeping it in check when it comes to their allies. Astaroth's purpose is to kill the Death Company members if they live after their "final battle." This ensures that the Death Company always stays in small numbers. This isn't to say that every battle includes Death Company (although it seems that way because of the tabletop), but a lot of the time they do right before battle.
Its interesting to note that the Lamenters have seemingly overcome the flaw, but seem to have gotten bad luck because of it.
ElectricPaladin wrote:The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.
That's a bit far-fetched, now. The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning. I'm pretty sure any Chapter Master would think twice about this.
What is keeping the Blood Angels somewhat save is, indeed, their loyalty. They are a big asset to the Imperium and have proven themselves reliable and, at times, crucial in the past. They are somewhat scary to be around, but all in all their track record grants them quite a bit of leeway from both the High Lords as well as the Inquisition. It's like some sort of balance of how weird you are vs how much the Imperium values you.
The only "odd man out" really is just the Space Wolves, who can apparently get away with anything they want and have a squabble with about every single Imperial Adeptus in existence with next to no repercussions whatsoever, which makes them even more special compared to any other Space Marine Chapter out there than they already are by virtue of their exceptional culture and abilities alone.
-Loki- wrote:Hell, the Space Wolves have gotten away with straight up murdering an Inquisitor because Grimnar didn't like what he was being told.
That just happened in some BL novel, though, didn't it?
Huge difference between murdering a bunch of priests and murdering an Inquisitor. I would hope that GW fluff isn't so far gone that even the SW would get away with the latter just like that. Then again, the SW can apparently beat back the forces of an entire Segmentum, so who knows.
The Inquisition can't afford to off one of the original founding Legions though.
Not only would they have all of the chapter's successors show up, but they would also have many of the original Legions show up too(with all their successors)
And killing an Inquisitor isn't a huge deal. Said Inquisitor probably had enemies in the Inquisition, they probably smoothed stuff over or deliberatly sent him to deal with the wolves to get rid of him.
I mean, the Ultramarines would probably show up for just about everybody(and that means just about every SM chapter in existance)
The Space Wolves would show up for everyone except the DAs.
I think the only founding chapter the Inquisition could take out without having the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes coming down on their heads would be the DAs, because they arn't friends with anyone in the Imperium really.
The Inquisition has neither the time nor the manpower to cleanse an entire Chapter. The Blood Angels patrol the Flaw themselves and the Inquisition doesn't HAVE to step in. Once a BA succumbs to the Black Rage they are killed in battle or killed after the battle. They are doing the Inquisition's job for them by cleaning up after themselves.
Not to mention with Demartes being able to control it there is hope that they can stop the madness and benefit from the Red Thirst without all the death of the Black Rage.
I often wondered how the BA's got away with having guys with WINGS exist. I understand that Sanguinus had wings so
i guess he got a pass, along with all the other ODD traits some of the other Primarchs had. However in a society that ABHORES mutations that sorta things would be frowned uppon. I can only assume that Blood Angles Sprouting wings is a GIFT from Sanguinus and a cultist sprouting wings is a GIFT OF CHAOS and MUST BE PURGED!!!
Dooley wrote: I often wondered how the BA's got away with having guys with WINGS exist. I understand that Sanguinus had wings so
i guess he got a pass, along with all the other ODD traits some of the other Primarchs had. However in a society that ABHORES mutations that sorta things would be frowned uppon. I can only assume that Blood Angles Sprouting wings is a GIFT from Sanguinus and a cultist sprouting wings is a GIFT OF CHAOS and MUST BE PURGED!!!
None of them have wings, those are super-fancy jump-packs. The only one with wings is the Sanguinor, who only appears in the midst of battle.
Honestly, although the BA have some rage issues, it's nothing compared to Wolves running around with huge canines, murdering ecclesiarchy and inquisition members, and fighting off segmentum fleets somehow. Blood Angels still adhere to Imperial authority, more or less, and purging them would also alienate all of their various successors. Like someone else in this thread said earlier, while the Wolves are free to roam, no Chapter that isn't full-on renegade has to worry about Inquisitorial scrutiny.
i think you guys miss-understand what a mutant is to the IoM. A mutant is a person with unstable mutations. Humans with stable mutation have been used by the IoM since the beginning. Navigators, Ogryn, Squats, hell read the BRB and there is a whole section on it
Captain Antivas wrote:The Inquisition has neither the time nor the manpower to cleanse an entire Chapter.
It happens. Be it by indirect action (see the Celestial Lions example posted) or more directly and forceful. All they have to do is yell "mutants!" and point the Adepta Sororitas their way. The Orders Militant have equipment stored for specifically these occasions, and purging Chapters condemned by the Inquisition was in fact a battle narrative in the Witchhunters Codex.
It's just not a decision made lightly. Well, most of the time. I'm sure you are familiar with the incident concerning the Sons of Malice.
Dooley wrote:I often wondered how the BA's got away with having guys with WINGS exist. I understand that Sanguinus had wings so i guess he got a pass, along with all the other ODD traits some of the other Primarchs had.
Maybe that's it - the Imperium could go along with it thinking "The Emperor considered it okay, so who are we to condemn them". There have been statues of a winged Sanguinius for ten thousand years, and people just grow up with it.
Also, I suppose that "wings" are generally considered less offensive than other, more seemingly "evil" traits. Cherubim have wings. Seraphim have wings. The Emperor Himself might often be depicted with wings on artwork and statues. Wings are cool.
Humans simply are susceptible to first impressions like that. In our real world, the nastiest lying backstabbing immoral politician can get away with anything as long as he has a charismatic smile and dresses well, whereas the true samaritan is shunned for having acne.
Omegus wrote:None of them have wings, those are super-fancy jump-packs. The only one with wings is the Sanguinor, who only appears in the midst of battle.
Oh, I actually forgot that.
Thanks for pointing it out.
It's all very well saying that they're loyal, but the inquisition don't really care about that - plenty of people appear loyal but have inwardly fallen to chaos, and the inquisition punishes them for it.
If there was a gaurd regiment, a few of whom were deranged pyscopaths obsessed with blood, and daubed themselves black before battle, and the rest of their regiment tried to cover for them...I honestly don't think they'd last too long.
Blood Angels? Come on, the Grey Knights murdered a bunch of nuns and covered themselves in their blood, not to mention that every single one of them is a Psyker to some degree. And the Inquisition has no problem working hand in hand with them everyday.
dkellyj wrote: Blood Angels? Come on, the Grey Knights murdered a bunch of nuns and covered themselves in their blood, not to mention that every single one of them is a Psyker to some degree. And the Inquisition has no problem working hand in hand with them everyday.
Granted, I'm fairly sure that's because the Grey Knights practically ARE the Inquisition.
"Political clout" does exist in 40k. Being a Guardsman confers none, being a Space Marine gives you some degree of immunity. Being an Inquisitor means you can get away with a lot.
Omegus wrote:
None of them have wings, those are super-fancy jump-packs. The only one with wings is the Sanguinor, who only appears in the midst of battle.
The Sanguinor also has a jump pack. Its the same style as the Sanguinary Guard jump pack. The only Blood Angel that had wings was in James Swallow's Blood Angels series and that was due to Chaos corruption.
Testify wrote:It's all very well saying that they're loyal, but the inquisition don't really care about that - plenty of people appear loyal but have inwardly fallen to chaos, and the inquisition punishes them for it.
If there was a gaurd regiment, a few of whom were deranged pyscopaths obsessed with blood, and daubed themselves black before battle, and the rest of their regiment tried to cover for them...I honestly don't think they'd last too long.
Loyalty may not be what the Inquisition cares about, but doing something wrong is. The Blood Angels haven't done anything to incite the Inquisition to action aside for having a geneseed that is deeply flawed. Sure they pissed off the Mechanicum a couple times, but no one cares about those nerds.
By what you're suggesting the Blood Angels are corrupt because they have the Death Company. Well wouldn't that mean the Space Wolves are corrupt because they have the Wulfen? Are the Raven Guard corrupt because they all eventually lose skin pigmentation and their eyes blacken? Are the Salamanders corrupt because their skin turns an obsidian black? The answer to all of these questions is no. No they are not. Having traces of the Primarch in the Legion is not a sign of corruption or treachery.
Again, I don't think you understand that the Flaw is something that the Blood Angels self regulate and it HAS been known about by the Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra for some time. Both groups know that it can be dangerous (just like the Space Wolves' Canis Helix), but isn't worth losing such an effective fighting force over. In time the issue will correct itself, anyways. All Angels fall eventually.
Other than what has already been mentioned, remember that much of the fluff in the codexes and elsewhere that we take for granted is not common knowledge amongst a great majority of the imperial citizenry, even amongst the more elite elements of that society.
Much of the Imperium thinks of the Astartes only in vague generalities, so citizens may even question their existence let alone certain issues.
Even within a Marine Chapter, many Marines are not wholly aware of other chapters and their proclivities. The senior officers may, but I think the average Ultramarine does NOT know about the problems associated with the Blood Angels geneseed.
It is not completely clear that the Imperial bureaucracy is entirely aware about the issues, and the fact that those that do give a pass to the Chapter is indicative of something deeper within the Imperium. Aberration is not wholly abhorred, a secret the higher ups in the Imperium like to keep under wraps I think. Senior officials have even experimented with "proscribed" geneseed (if you believe the rumours) at one time or another as well.
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dkellyj wrote: Blood Angels? Come on, the Grey Knights murdered a bunch of nuns and covered themselves in their blood, not to mention that every single one of them is a Psyker to some degree. And the Inquisition has no problem working hand in hand with them everyday.
The Grey Knights are higher up the pillar then even the Inquisition. No one save the Empra or maybe the High lords of Terra could call for their execution. And only an idiot would since the Grey Knights are based in the Terra system and would just go tell the Empra on the High Lords and then kill them all. Maybe If the high Lord sent all of the Assassins after them they could take them out but unlikely. And Hell the Dark Angels have gotten away with having half of their legion falling to chaos and time after time ditching their allies in battle to go chasing the fallen. Also good luck taking out the Space wolves since they are still the only Legion still operating as close to one fighting force when they fell like it.
ElectricPaladin wrote:The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.
That's a bit far-fetched, now. The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning. I'm pretty sure any Chapter Master would think twice about this.
What is keeping the Blood Angels somewhat save is, indeed, their loyalty. They are a big asset to the Imperium and have proven themselves reliable and, at times, crucial in the past. They are somewhat scary to be around, but all in all their track record grants them quite a bit of leeway from both the High Lords as well as the Inquisition. It's like some sort of balance of how weird you are vs how much the Imperium values you.
The only "odd man out" really is just the Space Wolves, who can apparently get away with anything they want and have a squabble with about every single Imperial Adeptus in existence with next to no repercussions whatsoever, which makes them even more special compared to any other Space Marine Chapter out there than they already are by virtue of their exceptional culture and abilities alone.
-Loki- wrote:Hell, the Space Wolves have gotten away with straight up murdering an Inquisitor because Grimnar didn't like what he was being told.
That just happened in some BL novel, though, didn't it?
Huge difference between murdering a bunch of priests and murdering an Inquisitor. I would hope that GW fluff isn't so far gone that even the SW would get away with the latter just like that. Then again, the SW can apparently beat back the forces of an entire Segmentum, so who knows.
Logan Grimnar literally slaughtered both a Grey Knights grandmaster and an Inquisitor Lord shortly after that, in The Emperor's Gift. It had to do with the Inquisition's attempt to kill all of the Guardsmen who had fought on Armageddon due to their exposure to Angron and his daemons. The Speyce Wulves were trying to protect the Guardsmen ships from Grey Knight/Inquisition ships, who were destroying them, which brought the Inquisitorial hammer down on the Wulves, which in turn brought the Wulves' hammer down on the Inquisition.
The story ends with Logan Grimnar cutting off an Inquisitor Lord's head and the Inquisition taking its force and running away with its tail behind its legs.
I think that while the Inquisition has no trouble screwing around with minor chapters, trying to purge a 1st founding legion is a different story. Other chapters will jump to the Blood Angel's defense, out of loyalty or fear or an oath or something, and while the Inquisiton has the manpower in the SoB, IG and IN to put them down, who wants to expend that much resources when you have Abaddon crawling up your ass on one side of the Galaxy and the Tyranids attempting to thrust their chitin into your mouth on the other side? The Inquisition isn't stupid.
White Ninja wrote:The Grey Knights are higher up the pillar then even the Inquisition.
The Grey Knights are owned by the Inquisition, hence they are on exactly the same pillar. Same as the Deathwatch or the Exorcists, really. Or the Red Hunters, if that icon on their pauldron is of any indication.
Though it would probably true to say that as an organisation they are more important than any single Inquisitor. If a Puritan Inquisitor would want to go against the GKs, he would have a lot of opposition from other Inquisitors. The GKs would probably not even bother to even deal with this. They wouldn't need to, and probably would lack the ability to do so, as they (to my knowledge) do not move in this web of influence and alliances and grudges that every Inquisitor gets involved in. The GKs just do what they've always done and go around killing daemons, letting others do the squabbling.
BlaxicanX wrote:Logan Grimnar literally slaughtered both a Grey Knights grandmaster and an Inquisitor Lord shortly after that, in The Emperor's Gift.
Okay, a novel then. I'll keep that out of my personal interpretation, as I think there would be repercussions for this.
BlaxicanX wrote:I think that while the Inquisition has no trouble screwing around with minor chapters, trying to purge a 1st founding legion is a different story. Other chapters will jump to the Blood Angel's defense, out of loyalty or fear or an oath or something, and while the Inquisiton has the manpower in the SoB, IG and IN to put them down, who wants to expend that much resources when you have Abaddon crawling up your ass on one side of the Galaxy and the Tyranids attempting to thrust their chitin into your mouth on the other side? The Inquisition isn't stupid.
That much is true, and probably the reason for why we don't see more Marine Chapters being purged than there are. Except for some very few radical cases, even the most troublesome Chapter is still fighting the Emperor's enemies, so trying to put them down would just hurt the Imperium's own resources. The Inquisition doesn't mind a loose cannon as long as it still points towards the enemy. Indeed, many Inquisitors use questionable methods themselves!
That would change when a Chapter becomes too much of a problem, though, and I think stuff like killing GK Chapter Masters or Inquisitor Lords qualifies as that. There's a line which should not be overstepped, and whilst a lot of stuff can be excused, this isn't. Such an action would be an affront to the Inquisition's mandate of operating with the Emperor's supreme authority, not to mention any emotional factors by that Inquisitor Lord having other Inquisitors as friends and allies pushing for censure. Take the Sons of Malice, for example - they didn't become excommunicated for Pietas' claim of cannibalism, but because they executed the Inquisitor for her attack, thus forcing the Imperium's hand. I think it would have ended differently had they left her alive.
From all I've been reading I would say that, to the Imperium, killing an Inquisitor is no different than an attack on the Emperor Himself.
Well from what I have read since the Space Marines only really answer the Emperor and their Primarchs and since they haven't been too talkative lately any act of good will by the marines to the Inquisition is an attempt to play nice. All of the first foundings have been allowed to do what ever they fell like as long as it doesnt hurt the empirum and the damage is less then the benefits. Arnt the only people who can call exterminatus Inquisitors, the High Lords and Chapter Masters.
ElectricPaladin wrote: 1) They are one of the original chapters. They're an institution of the Imperium. Inertia is a powerful ally.
2) They still fight for mankind. If the Blood Angels are coming, it's to save you.
3) The Blood Angels do a good job of covering up their weirder habits. The Astartes in general are pretty independent from the Inquisition.
4) As you've said, Astartes get a free pass. Despite the fact that the Imperium has a dim view of mutants and psychics, Astartes are allowed into the party despite being transhuman weirdos.
5) The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.
Like Paladin said, they still honour the Imperium with their service, and the majority of people that fall to the Black Rage and turn into a "mutant" the Blood Angels lock them away in a tower (forgot the name). Another major point is the Blood Angels Primarch Sanguinius is the most revered Primarch of all throughout the Imperium, beyond Roboute Guilliman.
It is true, they are a troubled Chapter, but they do their best to not let it overcome them. The BA are said to be one of the least trustworthy chapter in the Imperium because of these flaws, but the Dark Angels, despite no similar or known flaws, leave battles to hunt the fallen. The has been no known incident of the Blood Angels turning on or abandoning Imperial Forces, considering the flaws they have, they do well to stay in control. On another note, the BA are well connected with other Chapters (Space Wolves, being a major one), Imperial Worlds, and other minor Imperial Factions, with the addition of Lord Dante, the oldest Space Marine alive, I think the Imperium would be bonkers to do anything to the Blood Angels.
From all I've been reading I would say that, to the Imperium, killing an Inquisitor is no different than an attack on the Emperor Himself.
An attack on the Emperor is far beyond the loss of every single inquisitor.
No one is going to be missed. First page of the BRB.
Seriously, the Inquisition is the "secret police", not the good damn Emprah himself. They can't be everywhere or we had no rebellion.ever...
The bureaucrats collect data of everything in the Imperium, but they can't establish control over it at a level we are used to IRL as much as they try. And there are billions of them. The =I= has to run with a imagined watchful gaze at every imperial citizen, not a really existant one.
Plus, all subjects of the Emperor are meant to oppose the heretic and the traitor and a Inquisitor who has left his light is a valid target of .
2nd Plus: accidents may happen. I was not us, it was the xeno, the demon ,the heretic....
Lets say you live in the IoM and have heard the stories of the Emperors Angels.
You kow they are just legends but you can't help wondering if there is any truth in the myths.
You go down to the nearest church of the Holy Emperor thinking maybe you can get some info from the high priest.
As you walk up the steps you look at some of the stained-glass. There, in glorious detail is the Emperor facing Horus. At Horus's feet lies the Angel.
The preist answers some questions you have and explains that the Angel Sanguinius was one of the favored sons of the Emperor yadda yadda...
You walk away happy of your faith in the Emperor and his son Sangunius. Clearly he is a tragic figure in the legend and you may even wipe a tear from your eye.
Asking why the Blood Angels are hunted by the Inquisition is like asking why people still love Jesus even though he's a zombie.
dkellyj wrote: Blood Angels? Come on, the Grey Knights murdered a bunch of nuns and covered themselves in their blood, not to mention that every single one of them is a Psyker to some degree. And the Inquisition has no problem working hand in hand with them everyday.
The Grey Knights are higher up the pillar then even the Inquisition. No one save the Empra or maybe the High lords of Terra could call for their execution. And only an idiot would since the Grey Knights are based in the Terra system and would just go tell the Empra on the High Lords and then kill them all. Maybe If the high Lord sent all of the Assassins after them they could take them out but unlikely. And Hell the Dark Angels have gotten away with having half of their legion falling to chaos and time after time ditching their allies in battle to go chasing the fallen. Also good luck taking out the Space wolves since they are still the only Legion still operating as close to one fighting force when they fell like it.
No, they aren't. The Grey Knights are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus of the Inquisition. As a Chapter, they exist because the Emperor foresaw his own incapacitation, and decreed that a fighting force be created that could stand against Daemons. Once they were formed and Titan returned from its jaunt into Warp-Space, they were set on the rosters, secretly, as a Space Marine Chapter during the Second Founding, and placed under the command of the Inquisition.
BlaxicanX wrote:Logan Grimnar literally slaughtered both a Grey Knights grandmaster and an Inquisitor Lord shortly after that, in The Emperor's Gift.
Okay, a novel then. I'll keep that out of my personal interpretation, as I think there would be repercussions for this.
What some people who like to keep bringing this up often forget is who did the cutting. It was Logan Grimnar who did it. Not some wet behind the ears Bloodclaw. This guy has been the Chapter master (Great Wolf) of the entire Space Wolves organization for over 700 years. Who knows how long he was in the service of the IOM before making that title. His heroic deeds and selfless servitude to the IOM is legendary. The Sagas of his deeds fill entire rooms in the Great Hall of the Fang.
If a man such as this deemed that you needed to loose your head. I don't think there will be too many people who would oppose his action. I also feel that this sort of power/respect comes to all the current chapter masters. If it was Dante that did it, those who didn't get their heads chopped off, probably would just be like. "Well, that bob was a bit of a gakker anyway. Probably deserved it."
Also the number of times the SW have made the first move against the Inquisition can be counted on one hand. They almost always take the position of the defender in these situations. However, what those silly inquisitors always seem forget is that while the SW may not start every fight, they will always be the ones to end it.
And I think that this goes for all the SM chapters. Its just not a fight anyone would want to take on. Even if the Inquisitors win and destroy a whole chapter of SM the loss to the IOM would probably be overwhelming in the current situation. A total lose lose situation.
1hadhq wrote:An attack on the Emperor is far beyond the loss of every single inquisitor.
No one is going to be missed. First page of the BRB.
You're misunderstanding the message. An Inquisitor won't be missed, but killing him is a direct affront against the authority vested in them by the Emperor Himself. It's like those feudal laws from medieval times where "an attack on the king's soldiers is akin to an attack on the king". That does not make the soldier any more valuable, it has to do with them representing the sovereign. As the Inquisitors do for the God-Emperor in 40k. That is why they can order anyone and everyone around, ranging from Navy fleets to Space Marine Chapters to Titan legions.
Officially, at least. Inofficially, it often devolves into a game of politics, alliances, vows and favours - not in the least because of the Inquisition itself, or rather various individual Inquisitors and the friends they make.
Jayden63 wrote:If a man such as this deemed that you needed to loose your head. I don't think there will be too many people who would oppose his action.
Why not? List the number of friends in high places that this guy made. It's going to be a short list, simply because the SW have offended just about any Imperial organisation in the past. One should expect other Imperial organisations just waiting for a chance to get back at them.
The Inquisition is quite simply the wrong guy to pick a fight with. You can have issues with the AdMech or the Ecclesiarchy. Even with Navy and Guard commanders or other Space Marine Chapters. Because their influence is limited. This, however, does not apply to the Inquisition.
The Inquisition is quite simply the wrong guy to pick a fight with. You can have issues with the AdMech or the Ecclesiarchy. Even with Navy and Guard commanders or other Space Marine Chapters. Because their influence is limited. This, however, does not apply to the Inquisition.
No one's influence is unlimited.
Not even the big =I=...
The original subject of this thread, the Blood Angels, would send Mephy to meet the =I=. Stare at him/her. See them leave in a hurry to never return into imperial space. Case closed.
Jayden63 wrote:If a man such as this deemed that you needed to loose your head. I don't think there will be too many people who would oppose his action.
Why not? List the number of friends in high places that this guy made. It's going to be a short list, simply because the SW have offended just about any Imperial organisation in the past. One should expect other Imperial organisations just waiting for a chance to get back at them.
The Inquisition is quite simply the wrong guy to pick a fight with. You can have issues with the AdMech or the Ecclesiarchy. Even with Navy and Guard commanders or other Space Marine Chapters. Because their influence is limited. This, however, does not apply to the Inquisition.
I think you undervalue what it means to have many friends in low places. None of the SM commanders have friends in high places. However, all of them are battle brothers, all of them have countless IG regiments who owe their lives to these men. The number of other SM factions that would aid any other SM faction is probably pretty high unless a particular faction did something totally atrocious.
You don't need to impress the 6 guys ahead of you, but when you have 2000+ battle hardened warriors willing to die for you and countless others willing to alley with you. That is its own special kind of power.
Jayden63 wrote:I think you undervalue what it means to have many friends in low places. None of the SM commanders have friends in high places. However, all of them are battle brothers, all of them have countless IG regiments who owe their lives to these men. The number of other SM factions that would aid any other SM faction is probably pretty high unless a particular faction did something totally atrocious.
Those IG regiments will get nowhere without a Navy transport. Actually, the common soldier will not even be made aware of their "friends" needing help; it's not like you have access to CNN as a Guardsman.
But let's just say they do happen to end up on the same planet. Let's say the Guard was deployed against the Space Marines. Do you really believe that the soldiers in question will be swayed more by the faraway presence of a bunch of faceless Space Marines - or by their own leaders, their own Commissars, their own Ecclesiarchy priests who represent the faith they have sworn themselves to? Space Marines live apart from the Imperial community, they have exiled themselves into a role of occasional allies. Their semi-independence does not come just with advantages alone, and being alienated from the people of the Imperium is quite simply one of the drawbacks. To most of them, the Astartes are a mystified, terrifying being, not unlike a monster you're glad is on your side. It would not take much propaganda to change this image. How many of the millions of Guardsmen that were sent to invade Fenris turned traitor and sided with the defending Space Wolves? I am not aware of a single example.
What is more of an issue could be the reaction of other Space Marine Chapters, as there truly are some ancient bonds that bind them together, likely much more than there are feuds. However, are those bonds strong enough for a Chapter Master to choose his brethren before the Imperium? This I do not believe. They might band together if they perceive an action as an attack upon the Space Marines as a whole instead of a single, isolated Chapter, but otherwise they would face being branded traitors themselves, their fleets overwhelmed by superior Navy warships before their planets are either bombed into orbs of glass or invaded by regiments of the Guard.
And not even a First Founding Chapter should be immune to this level of pragmatism from its battle-brothers. Where were the Space Wolves' friends as Fenris was under siege by Bucharis? They had three years to show up. No one came.
ElectricPaladin wrote: The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.
That's a bit far-fetched, now. The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning. I'm pretty sure any Chapter Master would think twice about this.
I agree that not every chapter would flock to the Blood Angels' defense, but I also don't think it's a sure thing that none of them would. You're right. It would precipitate a civil war, because I'm certain that some chapters would defend the Blood Angels. In fact, that might be part of why the Inquisition dares not pull this sort of BS - do they want to be responsible for tearing the Imperium apart?
Glancing at the list, here's my personal opinion:
Neutral Chapters (Chapters that would try to stay out of it - I've put every Chapter I know nothing about here) • White Scars and their successors - can't imagine they'd care • Imperial Fists and their successors - the same. • Raven Guard - see above
Inquisition Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Inquisition against the Blood Angels) • Black Templars - they hate everything. • Grey Knights - part of the Inquisition • Iron Hands - they're in bed with the Mechanicus, who also don't like the Blood Angels, a move that ties them closely to the Imperium's politics.
Blood Angels Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Blood Angels against the Inquisition) • Blood Angels and all their successors, probably including the Knights of Blood • Ultramarines and some of their closer successors - I can't imagine the boy scouts letting a chapter that's basically done good, despite their mutations and issues, be wiped out. • Dark Angels - can you imagine these guys letting the Inquisition get away with judging Chapters? They know they'd be next. • Space Wolves - they might not like the Angels, but mortals trying to kill an Astartes chapter would annoy them. • Salamanders - well known as the most compassionate chapter. Like the Ultramarines, they'd support the Blood Angels out of sheer good-guy-ness.
Man... this would be awesome. Someone should write this novel.
The Exorcists and the Red Hunters are "Inquisition Chapters", too.
As for the Ultramarines, I'm really not sure - they in particular strike me as being extremely loyal to the concept of the Imperium, and not enjoying the idea of having to go to war against it.
And the Space Wolves ... eh, they didn't care one bit when the Inquisition moved against the Sons of Malice either.
I think that for a lot of Chapters, including the Ultras, it would really depend on the accusations and any proof brought against the "recipient", meaning whether the Inquisition has a good-enough reason to pull such a move.
If they do it openly (see Celestial Lions). Long term covert sabotage would surely be a safer way to avoid "collateral damage" against other Imperial forces, at least in cases where such an escalation could be foreseen due to a specific Chapter's relationships.
But yeah, that is indeed stuff for an amazing novel. Though it's already obvious which side would win in any case. *scnr*
ElectricPaladin wrote:But even in that victory, so much would change! What would the Astartes do with the Imperium once they've basically killed off the entire Inquisition?
And the entire Segmentum's Navy, and almost every Imperial Guard regiment within 10.000 light years.
The biggest issue of such a development would probably be that most Chapters do not have enough in common to unify their territories or even agree on a course of action. It would most likely result in several dozen "mini empires" that are going to be picked off one by one by Mankind's various enemies. Specifically the reason why the Ultras are so loyal; their leaders know there is no other way and that civil war would doom the Emperor's vision forever.
Actually trying to overthrow the High Lords would be the more beneficial thing to do in the long run, but that's easier said than done, unless you increase the plot armour even further.
ElectricPaladin wrote:But even in that victory, so much would change! What would the Astartes do with the Imperium once they've basically killed off the entire Inquisition?
And the entire Segmentum's Navy, and almost every Imperial Guard regiment within 10.000 light years.
The biggest issue of such a development would probably be that most Chapters do not have enough in common to unify their territories or even agree on a course of action. It would most likely result in several dozen "mini empires" that are going to be picked off one by one by Mankind's various enemies. Specifically the reason why the Ultras are so loyal; their leaders know there is no other way and that civil war would doom the Emperor's vision forever.
Actually trying to overthrow the High Lords would be the more beneficial thing to do in the long run, but that's easier said than done, unless you increase the plot armour even further.
It's true - the only outcome of this conflict that doesn't involve destruction for the IoM and near-genocide for mankind is probably if the war doesn't quite reach it's conclusion, allowing the various factions to reunite and recreate the Imperium.
insaniak wrote: 6) Everyone knows that vampires aren't real... so the Inquisition just assumes that the BAs are a bunch of emo cosplayers...
I cant remember what book i was reading but apperently in 40k there actually are, tough they are demons they drank blood ( one of the primarchs i think, it was a relic and through some kind of treachery they got into the safe room) it was a Sm novel
They are kinda like Daemon weapons but not really. More of a psychic construct in the form of a weapon that sucks the very life essence of the victim and feeds it to the wielder.
They are kinda like Daemon weapons but not really. More of a psychic construct in the form of a weapon that sucks the very life essence of the victim and feeds it to the wielder.
1)To most of them, the Astartes are a mystified, terrifying being, not unlike a monster you're glad is on your side. It would not take much propaganda to change this image.
2)How many of the millions of Guardsmen that were sent to invade Fenris turned traitor and sided with the defending Space Wolves? I am not aware of a single example.
3)Where were the Space Wolves' friends as Fenris was under siege by Bucharis? They had three years to show up. No one came.
No one
4)The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning.
1) So the "Angels of Death" are monsters now? Until you want to tell the whole truth of the heresy to every imperial subject and see the IoM broken apart because of the distrust this creates, you don't change the official image of any organization of the IoM.
2) How many returned? No one?
3) Bucharis has thrown himself 'to the wolves'. You can find another example in the 6th ed BRB, where space marines are sent on a crusade because of accusations from the ecclesiarchy and in the end the one starting this was undone, when those marines returned.
4) More closer? The "secret police" , the one no one is fond of? Those who didn't stop Vandire? The super secret oh so influental orginazation that can't prevent the badab war? Seems they aren't doing so well.
Maybe its not THE inquisition but THE inquisitor? You know, something that may see ordos disagree and even openly oppose each other.
Who can guarantee the whole thing doesn't go awfully wrong and the "emperors authority" is claimed by both sides?
There is also a chance those who speak against the BA aren't loyal to the throne anymore... and have to be purged themselves.
altered list of:
ElectricPaladin wrote:
Neutral Chapters (Chapters that would try to stay out of it - I've put every Chapter I know nothing about here)
• Iron Hands - they're in bed with the Mechanicus, which could stay neutral to sell their services to both sides...
Inquisition Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Inquisition against the Blood Angels)
• Grey Knights - part of the Inquisition
Blood Angels Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Blood Angels against the Inquisition)
• White Scars and their successors - prefer independence and may act to prevent any attempt to tie them
• Imperial Fists and their successors - fought alongside the BA. Pretty straightforward when honor is involved.
• Raven Guard - the Imperium above all else, even the =I=. Would oppose the =I= if they see them as control freaks..
• Black Templars - usually crusading against the xeno. Inquisitors protect xenos sometimes. Who consorts with the enemy is going to suffer..
Man... this would be awesome. Someone should write this novel.
Please, not someone. Someone is bad, very bad. The risk of "someone"... * switches into atsknf mode * is too high.
Lynata wrote: Though it's already obvious which side would win in any case. *scnr*
The Emperor, since this would make him very angry, so he decides to get rid of a few who get his vision of a united humanity wrong.
You may volunteer to clean the mess of the x-ploded heads if you want.
Lynata wrote:
Actually trying to overthrow the High Lords would be the more beneficial thing to do in the long run, but that's easier said than done, unless you increase the plot armour even further.
Back to the 6th ed BRB ( something no one seems to care about ), in the timeline you will find an event where all High Lords were dead.
Who stepped up to sort this out?
A) the inquisition ?
B) the Astartes?
Spoiler:
The correct answer is B. They didn't take over, they just made sure everybody understood there was no use of petty powerplay, of endless struggle, all that mattered was the return of control. Thus the Adeptus Astartes does not want to be in charge. But they will make sure the IoM has not to wait for the Inqusition to act ( whenever that would have been, maybe in M50 or so ).
1hadhq wrote:So the "Angels of Death" are monsters now? Until you want to tell the whole truth of the heresy to every imperial subject and see the IoM broken apart because of the distrust this creates, you don't change the official image of any organization of the IoM.
"It is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly human at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to normal humans, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a man's skull with one hand and practices crude acts of blood sacrifice?"
Guess who controls (and indoctrinates) the masses? As I said, being so far removed from the populace has its drawbacks. This includes a lack of ability to influence what people are being taught about them, or even just communicating the fact that they don't actually wish to kill them.
I think I can actually dig up more examples rather than just the quote above, if you give me some time until I can get back to my books. There's quite a number of instances in the fluff where even those Guardsmen who actually get to see them are terrified of their conduct in close combat (and I even recall a short story about Blood Angels storming a breach, scaring the gak out of their allies), or even disgusted by a display of arrogance (like Colonel Celestine on Armageddon and his argument with Captain Vinyard of the Marines Malevolent).
Undoubtedly, the Space Marines are universally represented as heroes of the Imperium, with countless statues on Imperial worlds - but scary heroes that "put the fear of the Emperor" in you, and it would not be too difficult for the Confessors accompanying all Guard regiments by default making use of that image to twist them into being perceived as monsters. How do you think IG regiments are prepared for the 13th Black Crusade? They are fighting "Space Marines" there, too.
1hadhq wrote:How many returned? No one?
You're going to have to elaborate that one.
1hadhq wrote:Bucharis has thrown himself 'to the wolves'. You can find another example in the 6th ed BRB, where space marines are sent on a crusade because of accusations from the ecclesiarchy and in the end the one starting this was undone, when those marines returned.
You are trying to say that Bucharis managed to send every single Space Marine Chapter "away", with no one left to help the Wolves, and that it was just the Space Wolves as the sole Astartes Chapter who didn't care one bit for such a remarkable display of loyalty?
Even if that were true - of which there is not even a trace in the story - who's to say that the Imperium would not simply pull that move again whenever they want to exterminate a Chapter that has a lot of friends?
1hadhq wrote:More closer? The "secret police" , the one no one is fond of?
Yep. The "secret police" who has no trouble securing the service of the Imperium's main fighting forces for whatever agenda they are pursueing. An ability that the Space Marines lack due to existing outside the hierarchy. That they defy the Imperial Faith widens this gap even more, being a point of contention between the Astartes and the Ecclesiarchy ever since. It's not a coincidence that the Inquisition looks to the Sisters of Battle more often than to other Space Marine Chapters when attempting a purge.
"In such cases a conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a source of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas. Few Space Marine Chapters would be asked to move against another except in the direst circumstances."
1hadhq wrote:Who can guarantee the whole thing doesn't go awfully wrong and the "emperors authority" is claimed by both sides?
That's easy. The Inquisition has, by law, the highest authority. Officially, they can command entire Chapters, so they are arguably higher up in the chain of command. The Space Marines on the other hand cannot enforce command over any element of the Navy or the Guard ever since the Horus Heresy and the edicts passed in its wake, as you are no doubt aware of. Edicts specifically meant to strip the Astartes of the ability to ever pose a threat against the Imperium again.
I think I can actually dig up more examples rather than just the quote above, if you give me some time until I can get back to my books. There's quite a number of instances in the fluff where even those Guardsmen who actually get to see them are terrified of their conduct in close combat (and I even recall a short story about Blood Angels storming a breach, scaring the gak out of their allies), or even disgusted by a display of arrogance (like Colonel Celestine on Armageddon and his argument with Captain Vinyard of the Marines Malevolent).
The fear the astartes instill isn't the point. The trust lost in the heresy is. It had to be re-established ( partially ) to keep the forces of the Imperium able to fight alongside. So breaking that again gets you where? distrust of all that is different? Now its not just the astartes who are different, the psyker , the adepts of the mechanicum etc...
There is delicate balance kept, one that allows to aim all hate towards the traitor and the xeno.
Undoubtedly, the Space Marines are universally represented as heroes of the Imperium, with countless statues on Imperial worlds - but scary heroes that "put the fear of the Emperor" in you, and it would not be too difficult for the Confessors accompanying all Guard regiments by default making use of that image to twist them into being perceived as monsters.
Imperial worlds have lots of statues and many are local heroes and some distant ones, but they are represent saviours.
How do you twist that image without opening the gates for the agents of chaos to fill their lies into the minds of the unwary?
IG regiments may have a confessor, but not all have. Badmouthing the Emperors own is a good reason to put those confessors to the blade.
Because basically, sowing distrust is wasting the Emperors time and ressources as it may misdirect the righteous hate from the valid target ( ie who opposes the emperors rule ) to an invalid one ( your brothers in arms ). Seems like some are already no longer in his light.
Maybe another cleansing of the church is neccessary, they didn't learn their lesson last time.
How do you think IG regiments are prepared for the 13th Black Crusade? They are fighting "Space Marines" there, too.
Maybe humans aren't so dumb and learn to identify friend and foe? Like don't shoot the ones without spikes...
Otherwise, they can't get along if they don't know what the red marine and the green marine, the blue or the yellow marine are.
Chaos in all its variety, looks different. ( maybe just from a buisness point of GW, maybe because the warp just has to alter everything ).
Your idea of space marines in general as " the enemy" will get them killed. Black crusade > 2 flavors of marines > shoot the wrong ones and youre the traitor...
you said ?a? million guardsmen went there, I asked who got out of this alive.
Lynata wrote: who's to say that the Imperium would not simply pull that move again whenever they want to exterminate a Chapter that has a lot of friends?
Because there is no "THE imperium" but a council of Lords and an Emperor who may just request the head of the idiot that tried to call his Red Marines anything but loyal? Because "the imperium" is based on consent of multiple organizations and "the" inquisition" isn't a monolithic block either.
1hadhq wrote:Who can guarantee the whole thing doesn't go awfully wrong and the "emperors authority" is claimed by both sides?
That's easy. The Inquisition has, by law, the highest authority. Officially, they can command entire Chapters, so they are arguably higher up in the chain of command.
Really? Easily wrong. The highest authority is the Emperor. Inquisitors can act "in his name" but still 2 inquisitors could both claim that.
Ordos could have different agendas and in this case who can overrule the other?
The inquisition is also imperfect as they are humans, not the "God" Emperor himself. Inquisitors make mistakes or turn to chaos.
The thing is that - unlike the Astartes - the Inquisition will be able to mobilise a unified front within the Imperium when it wants to. The Ecclesiarchy is a part of that, as will be the Guard and the Navy and the Mechanicus. Within the IoM, all these organisations are connected to each other, and each shares representation in the Council of High Lords. The Space Marines standing outside of all this means they will find no support from within the Imperium. A Chapter may have individual contacts and "friends" within the Inquisition itself, but these would be unable to do anything against a conclave decision and indeed might have to fear being branded traitors as well if they try to interfere.
1hadhq wrote:The fear the astartes instill isn't the point. The trust lost in the heresy is. It had to be re-established ( partially ) to keep the forces of the Imperium able to fight alongside. So breaking that again gets you where?
Which is exactly why I think that most Space Marine Chapters would sit back, and why the Inquisition would not condemn a Chapter lightly. Simply put: There is a line that should not be crossed, and for the Marines it is quite a bit further away than for ordinary citizens. But still they can cross it too, and once this is done, the renegades will have to face the Imperium's wrath alone.
1hadhq wrote:Imperial worlds have lots of statues and many are local heroes and some distant ones, but they are represent saviours. How do you twist that image without opening the gates for the agents of chaos to fill their lies into the minds of the unwary?
That is the task of the Preachers and Confessors attached to the various Imperial forces. Either way, it would have zero effect to a regiment's original homeworld and its population, given that a regiment - once raised - will never return home. In this way, any doubt picked up during service will never taint the population itself.
And really, Space Marine Chapters going rogue is not something that happens once every 10.000 years. The Imperium should be rather adept at dismantling a Chapter and stripping it out of historical records by now. Most Chapters are probably revered in few places apart from their own homeworld, too, and as we can see from the Sons of Malice, the native population might simply be wiped out as part of the campaign.
1hadhq wrote:IG regiments may have a confessor, but not all have.
As per Ecclesiarchal decree, they all have. Sayeth so in the 5E Codex IG.
1hadhq wrote:Badmouthing the Emperors own is a good reason to put those confessors to the blade.
And who should do this? The people they are preaching to? The fervent worshipers and members of the faith, who have been raised to respect and believe anything the Ecclesiarchy teaches them? Because for some reason they have more faith in some random silent Marine statue they've maybe seen once? Yeah, sure.
1hadhq wrote:Maybe another cleansing of the church is neccessary, they didn't learn their lesson last time. ;:(
Oh, but in this instance we are talking about cleansing a Space Marine Chapter - because they didn't learn their lesson the last time, don't we?
1hadhq wrote:Maybe humans aren't so dumb and learn to identify friend and foe? Like don't shoot the ones without spikes...
You act like the Imperium actually teaches this stuff in grade school. IG troopers shoot at whoever their commander points them at, and friend/foe identification will be dealt with prior to a campaign via a proper briefing. No single Guardsman in the entirety of the Imperium will be able to identify all existing Space Marine Chapters based on their colours and heraldry.
And as you said it yourself, "Chaos in all its variety looks different" - this includes the possibility of heretical cults operating with insignia other than an eight-spoked star...
1hadhq wrote:you said a million guardsmen went there, I asked who got out of this alive.
Several million Guardsmen went there. Exact numbers were not given, unfortunately, only that the invasion which saw most of Fenris except for the Fang conquered lasted three years. I don't expect many of the forces already deployed on the surface have survived, given that the Segmentum Pacificus Navy was cut off by a fleet of Space Wolf Battle Barges forcing them to retreat. Bucharis himself managed to escaped, though, so I suspect there was a window allowing him and a few others to get away.
1hadhq wrote:Because there is no "THE imperium" but a council of Lords and an Emperor who may just request the head of the idiot that tried to call his Red Marines anything but loyal? Because "the imperium" is based on consent of multiple organizations and "the inquisition" isn't a monolithic block either.
You're missing the point. We are talking about the hypothetical situation that an Inquisitorial Conclave has condemned a Chapter for somehow being too far gone, like it happened in the past. You want to tell me that for some strange reason there will be resistance in the Imperium against such a decree? By whom? Why?
1hadhq wrote:Really? Easily wrong. The highest authority is the Emperor. Inquisitors can act "in his name" but still 2 inquisitors could both claim that. Ordos could have different agendas and in this case who can overrule the other? The inquisition is also imperfect as they are humans, not the "God" Emperor himself. Inquisitors make mistakes or turn to chaos.
An individual Inquisitor cannot overrule a conclave. The Inquisition does operate as a monolithic block once difficult decisions call for a majority vote. Conclaves are held for specifically this one reason - to lend more weight to a decision and to ensure that such an endeavour cannot be torpedoed by some wayward individual from their own ranks. Otherwise, things would be even more of a mess than they already are.
Lynata, apparently you have a very different view of the fluff from GW. While your ideas make rational sense we know this:
1) The Inquisition is only relevant to the degree they are supporting or attacking the SM chapter that is the subject of the story. If the latter, see #3
2) SOB don't scare anyone. They are a step above IG in terms of getting brutally fluff slaughtered.
3) The Inquisition is free to wipe out any mooks (IG regiments, planets, non-core SM chapters) or Chaos (though not permanently), but the moment they clash with a named SM good guy, they lose
4) SM always have whatever support the fluff dictates they need
and
5) SMs are GW's poster boys and biggest cash cows (this fact trumps anyother fluff argument)
So, when say Grimnar gets pissed because the Inq wants to purge Armageddon, and a fight breaks out, guess who wins? You got it, the SWs repel the Inq, slay the wayward inquisitor (who, in all fairness, did start the conflict) and suffer no ill effects other than some fist shaking by the Inq. Oh, and no other chapters came because the SW didn't need them. Just like BA, UM, DA, etc. wouldn't. They are the big dogs (IE moneymakers) and if you attack one of the "good guys" you are now a bad guy. Guess who loses in GW fluff?
Argue all you want, but money dictates that in the 41st millennium, Space Marines top any other faction/group/race. They are the center of the narrative.
jmurph wrote:Argue all you want, but money dictates that in the 41st millennium, Space Marines top any other faction/group/race. They are the center of the narrative.
I don't dispute it, I just deplore it.
My whole argument is based on the GW fluff laying the groundwork (organisations, hierarchy, laws, habits, relationships, ...) for the setting. That a few individual incidents published by the same source fly in the face of said groundwork is very much a known issue, but doesn't really change my position or what it is based on. Do I *believe* that the SW will ever be held accountable? No. I'm just saying they should, if the narrative would (a) actually continue beyond M41 and (b) value consistency over monetary concerns. Not more, not less.
The same would be true for the BA if they'd ever be condemned, though here my position is that the Imperium does not actually have a reason to purge them.
And btw Red Hunters didn't go very well agains the SW...(their flagship crashing ond Fenris and easy dinner for the wolves)...
And what about dirty scheming after the battle which even shocked random GK? Refusing to help the SW when Abby strikes and questioning their Genseed....all after the battle ( which they LOST )
Also there is no question,help would come to to the BA (First to respond would be the first/second founding chapters)
ElectricPaladin wrote:
The Inquisition can't afford to piss the Astartes off that much. They need the Blood Angels. They also need the Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson and Imperial Fists, and all the others. If the Inquisition started meddling in the affairs of chapters that are still basically fighting for the Imperium, they might catch some trouble from the other chapters, either out of loyalty or fear of what the Inquisition will find if it digs in their closets.
That's a bit far-fetched, now. The Inquisition has been offing entire Chapters left and right if it felt the need to do so, and since they are arguably more closer to the Imperium (indeed, acting with the Emperor's own authority) than the Astartes, any Chapter that would feel bound to help their condemned brethren would invariably find itself drawn into a civil war with an entity they've sworn to protect, and in a conflict they have no chance at actually winning. I'm pretty sure any Chapter Master would think twice about this.
I agree that not every chapter would flock to the Blood Angels' defense, but I also don't think it's a sure thing that none of them would. You're right. It would precipitate a civil war, because I'm certain that some chapters would defend the Blood Angels. In fact, that might be part of why the Inquisition dares not pull this sort of BS - do they want to be responsible for tearing the Imperium apart?
Glancing at the list, here's my personal opinion:
Neutral Chapters (Chapters that would try to stay out of it - I've put every Chapter I know nothing about here)
• White Scars and their successors - can't imagine they'd care
• Imperial Fists and their successors - the same.
• Raven Guard - see above
Inquisition Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Inquisition against the Blood Angels)
• Black Templars - they hate everything.
• Grey Knights - part of the Inquisition
• Iron Hands - they're in bed with the Mechanicus, who also don't like the Blood Angels, a move that ties them closely to the Imperium's politics.
Blood Angels Chapters (Chapters I think would probably support the Blood Angels against the Inquisition)
• Blood Angels and all their successors, probably including the Knights of Blood
• Ultramarines and some of their closer successors - I can't imagine the boy scouts letting a chapter that's basically done good, despite their mutations and issues, be wiped out.
• Dark Angels - can you imagine these guys letting the Inquisition get away with judging Chapters? They know they'd be next.
• Space Wolves - they might not like the Angels, but mortals trying to kill an Astartes chapter would annoy them.
• Salamanders - well known as the most compassionate chapter. Like the Ultramarines, they'd support the Blood Angels out of sheer good-guy-ness.
Man... this would be awesome. Someone should write this novel.
So you think the Imperial Fists and White Scars wouldn't flock to the Blood Angels defence? Ha, don't make me laugh, so they would not honour the sacrifice that Sanguinius made, Sanguinius is the most renowned Primarch of them all, im sure they would. They fought side by side at the Battle of Terra, fought together, died together, I have no doubt they would jump to the defence of the BA. Also when Corax tried to speed up the Space Marines making process for the RG, mutant marines were created. They would help.
I do agree with you about the GK, and Iron Hands. Not the Black Templars, though. The Grey Knights of course will fight for the Inquisition. Iron Hands hate all impurities and want to be perfect in the eyes of the Emperor, they would see the flaws in the BA gene seed as an Impurity that can't be cured. The Black Templars hate psykers, so I believe they wouldn't fight against a fellow chapter, siding with the Inquisition who are full of psykers no doubt. Against Chaos I think they would, against the BA or any other chapter where there is no evidence, they wouldn't.
Successors will help, Knights of Blood will too, they helped fend of the Tyranid invasion of Baal.
The BA follow the codex astartes fairly strictly, also at the Second War of Armageddon, Marneus Calgar and Tu'Shan (I think), made Lord Dante the overall Commander. So yeah i agree with this.
Dark Angels, yeah, both Chapters have secrets for their own reasons, no doubt they would help.
Space Wolves, you forgot to mention that they absolutely despise the Inquisition in every way. Sanguinius and Russ were good friends. The First War of Armageddon, the Inquisition want to "remove" everyone who had the knowledge of Chaos, of which the SW disagreed. Logan Grimnar went so far as to kill an Inquisitor.
Salamanders, yep.
Then again this is all my personal opinion, with some facts, so feel free to disagree
Testify wrote: Some of their higher-ups look like vampires, they have an entire company that is completely over-wealmed by rage. I know the Astartes are allowed lee-way when other sectors of the Imperium are not, but the Blood Angels seem to be above and beyond what any of the other marine chapters have done.
It seems like the Inquisition would look very dimly on this, unlike other scuffles this would not be because of ruffled feathers or a natural distrust of authority, rather because the entire chapter would seem, to outsiders, to be Khornite.
So why haven't they been squashed yet?
Plot armor basically. Same thing with Space Wolves. Realistically the SW's would have been crushed long ago by the Ministorum's invasion (as opposed to a few dozen squads of long fangs miraculously repeatedly annihilating entire armored columns, etc). That's really how like half the factions in this game continue to exist, simply because GW wants them to, not because it makes any actual sense, or the Tau Empire would have been overrun in weeks and the Space Wolves destroyed if though nothing else than a Vraksian style siege.
I think another thing that gets lost in all this is just how badly GW has screwed up the numbers of the various parties. There are maybe what 1,000,000 actual space marines in service for the entire IOM. Thats a million guys to watch over and defend Trillions of inhabitants and even more light years of space border to defend. All of the SM combined are nothing more than a drop of spit into the ocean when you start looking at the combined galactic population of all of the races. Yet, here they are, the supreme vaulted warriors of the IOM.
If an infinitesimal percentage of the over all population are your supreme heros, then my friend, they can do what ever the hell they want. And like the guy above me said. They win because GW wants them to win, not because they actually can win.
In truth against the sort of odds the IOM faces, SM numbers should equal the current standing guard numbers. This is why they say that a single tac squad can passify an entire planet. GW is in part its own worse enemy. They make claims that just cannot be realized by any sense of imagination by the learned man. But they hook us at a young age where fantasy and impossible odds are badass and the idea of logistics is no more important than why the grass grows.
Jayden wrote:All of the SM combined are nothing more than a drop of spit into the ocean when you start looking at galatic population of all of the races.
Exactly. Their importance to the Imperium as a whole is greatly exagerrated. Yet on the other hand, they are still way too useful to just get rid of 'em. They don't win any war that the Imperial Guard couldn't have won on its own - but they shorten the time and manpower required for the job considerably when they take out a critical objective or punch a hole into the enemy's defense.
It's rather similar to the Storm Trooper regiment, whose only raison d'être is to support other Imperial elements throughout the galaxy. They don't even deploy their full force anywhere but send a few companies at most. Space Marine Chapters are quite a bit more versatile and capable of more independent operations (within a certain scope), but you get the idea.
Jayden wrote:Yet, here they are, the supreme vaulted warriors of the IOM.
Yeah, but not because of what they are today. They are revered for what they were during the Great Crusade. They are an embodiment of "the better days" when the Emperor was still around, they are His own creation, and Imperial propaganda knows how important heroes are for the general public.
Do you think the Adepta Sororitas are revered because there's a few thousand Battle Sisters roaming the galaxy and putting heretics to the torch? Hell no, they are revered because they wear fancy "angelic" armour and because the Preachers tell people they're cool.
This is just how the Imperium works.
Jayden wrote:If an infinitesimal percentage of the over all population are your supreme heros, then my friend. They can do what ever the hell they want.
As we can see from the fluff, the higher up you are in the Imperial hierarchy, the less likely you actually are to buy into that propaganda. For a lot of people, it might be quite similar to some kind of "reality shock", almost as if you'd meet some famous actor you've always loved only to find out he/she is a total ass, privately.
"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies. This alone is of no concern to myself or the Order. [...]
During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter. Either call in an Inquisitor or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Fleshtearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes." -- Canoness Carmina
Coincidentally, the higher up you are in the food chain, the more likely it is you are in a position to make things difficult for anyone else, including a Marine Chapter that you have some sort of quarrel with. There's not too many people in the Imperium who can say this of themselves, but they certainly do exist.
Jayden wrote:This is why they say that a single tac squad can passify an entire planet.
Lynata wrote: A Chapter may have individual contacts and "friends" within the Inquisition itself, but these would be unable to do anything against a conclave decision and indeed might have to fear being branded traitors as well if they try to interfere.
There is no conclave as there is no evidence. There is no evidence because there is nothing wrong with the BA.
So that non existant conclave has nothing to debate and therfore nothing to decide. Because to have a conclave, there had to be a reason to have one. Thats where the OP fails. It doesn't get off ground, but if it would its unlikely to see a loyal inquisitor providing false evidence so its IMO a corrupt one, this will resolve itself whenever other inquisitors counter check this and dispose of the traitor.
Lynata wrote: But still they can cross it too, and once this is done, the renegades will have to face the Imperium's wrath alone.
Points at lots of crusades. Points at badab war.
So generally there is more flexibility in the IoM than you think. Whole chapters rarely turn and the line isn't thin but pretty fat.
The IoM may send a bunch of 30 chapters into the Eye to pay for their "crossing the line" but marines tend to march into hell and back.
Especially if the evidence was "created".
In the case of badab, the =I= failed to contain an issue and nearly lost multiple chapters and regiments instead of dealing out the imperial wrath. Plus I see no ecclesiarchy there.... *wonders where they hid*...
1hadhq wrote:Imperial worlds have lots of statues and many are local heroes and some distant ones, but they are represent saviours. How do you twist that image without opening the gates for the agents of chaos to fill their lies into the minds of the unwary?
That is the task of the Preachers and Confessors attached to the various Imperial forces.
So those priests will tell the same lies as the agents of the arch-enemy?
Good, makes it easier to purge them. Who acts like the arch enemy, becomes what he preaches against and shall suffer.
Because its not so easy to make sure this doesn't end as a "shoot everything in PA / TDA " and these enraged masses trying to attack your SoB because of PA and boltguns...
1hadhq wrote:IG regiments may have a confessor, but not all have.
As per Ecclesiarchal decree, they all have. Sayeth so in the 5E Codex IG.
Ecclesiarchy is unimportant. *Looks at his IG. Does not spot a confessor.* They are either very shy or in the same spot as the invisible support of the munitorum.
1hadhq wrote:Badmouthing the Emperors own is a good reason to put those confessors to the blade.
And who should do this? The people they are preaching to?
Yep. Every imperial subject has the duty to oppose the traitor and the heretic. Preaching against the forces of the IoM is ....you guess it, a good reason to be burnt at the stake. Heard they love fire, so put fire on their fire
Lynata wrote: instance we are talking about cleansing a Space Marine Chapter - because they didn't learn their lesson the last time, don't we?
This isn't about the Blood Angels anymore?
In this case, corrupted members of the ecclesiarchy have mislead whole worlds into damnation. Shouldn't they learn their lesson too?
Lynata wrote: You act like the Imperium actually teaches this stuff in grade school.
But it does. Want examples?
May I also add the IIUP, where the menace of the xeno is described 'correctly'. To assume they don't know about the astartes and the mechanicum but somehow every single one of them has this little book to inform him/her of a wide range of possible opponents is not what I have expected from you.
Several million Guardsmen went there. Exact numbers were not given, unfortunately, only that the invasion which saw most of Fenris except for the Fang conquered lasted three years.
Fenris is classified as a deathworld IIRC. Its surface isn't stable except for the Fang and asaheim. Having a leader like Bucharis would explain why they may not have cared and the IG may been lost to natural disasters ( if we go for a believable end, not just Space wolf sagas ).
Lynata wrote: You want to tell me that for some strange reason there will be resistance in the Imperium against such a decree? By whom? Why?
An example of such decree against anyone carriying the legacy of the Legions would be nice.
I think this is something that only happens to those having weird names to begin with, whose place is with chaos as their fluff will be part of
a CSM codex. So resistance is unneccessary.
1hadhq wrote:There is no conclave as there is no evidence. There is no evidence because there is nothing wrong with the BA.
We're talking past each other. As I said, BA are fine. I'm talking about the cases where evidence would be easy to procure. I am argueing that "being a Space Marine" is not (or rather: should not) a "get ouf of jail free" card that simply negates any stupid move a Chapter Master might pull. Because some people in this thread seem convinced that this is the case.
1hadhq wrote:The IoM may send a bunch of 30 chapters into the Eye to pay for their "crossing the line" but marines tend to march into hell and back.
The IoM may also send 1 Chapter to Armageddon, feed them false Intel about the Orks and snipe their Apothecaries if they really don't like them.
1hadhq wrote:So those priests will tell the same lies as the agents of the arch-enemy?
What lies? Space Marines do not follow the One True Faith, can (depending on the Chapter) be labeled as mutants and (depending on the circumstances) be labeled as traitors if they refused a direct order from a higher authority. Such as the Inquisition.
1hadhq wrote:Ecclesiarchy is unimportant. *Looks at his IG. Does not spot a confessor.* They are either very shy or in the same spot as the invisible support of the munitorum.
Hey, I only repeat what it says in GW's fluff.
Kudos for supposedly having a full regiment of Imperial Guard in minis, tho.
1hadhq wrote:Yep. Every imperial subject has the duty to oppose the traitor and the heretic. Preaching against the forces of the IoM is ....you guess it, a good reason to be burnt at the stake. Heard they love fire, so put fire on their fire
You're mixing things up. It's not "against the forces of the IoM" when it is the IoM that does the preaching. It's called "Excommunicate Traitoris". The Sons of Malice learned what this means the hard way.
And they weren't even guilty! (I think)
1hadhq wrote:In this case, corrupted members of the ecclesiarchy have mislead whole worlds into damnation. Shouldn't they learn their lesson too?
That's why there's the Sisters of Battle, to go around and kill Apostate Cardinals. Oh, and the Ordo Hereticus, which was established after the Age of Apostasy to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.
1hadhq wrote:May I also add the IIUP, where the menace of the xeno is described 'correctly'. To assume they don't know about the astartes and the mechanicum but somehow every single one of them has this little book to inform him/her of a wide range of possible opponents is not what I have expected from you.
The IIUP is Black Library and as such about as accurate as the Xenology book that wants to tell you that Tau have toes instead of feet.
I like it, I have it (both editions, and the Munitorum Manual too!), but I'd not consider everything it says as 100% representative. Really, do you believe every single trooper is issued all the stuff from that huge list of equipment? Even the Rough Riders or the Vostroyans? In fact, the Mars-Pattern Lasgun supposedly having a charge slider clearly conflicts with GW's own information in the Inquisitor RPG.
But just on a hypothetical note, even if we take the IIUP as gospel, why do you think it should include (oh, and it doesn't) the heraldry of 1.000 Space Marine Chapters? Would it have enough pages? Do Imperial Guard regiments really operate right next to Astartes Chapter on daily routine?
1hadhq wrote:Fenris is classified as a deathworld IIRC. Its surface isn't stable except for the Fang and asaheim. Having a leader like Bucharis would explain why they may not have cared and the IG may been lost to natural disasters ( if we go for a believable end, not just Space wolf sagas ).
I wish it had been presented as a saga, that would make it easier to swallow.
That said, Fenris' harsh environment was at least mentioned as having finished off any survivors that were both left behind and not amongst those 10k that were killed by the SW.
1hadhq wrote:An example of such decree against anyone carriying the legacy of the Legions would be nice. I think this is something that only happens to those having weird names to begin with, whose place is with chaos as their fluff will be part of a CSM codex. So resistance is unneccessary.
You're avoiding the question. We're playing theoretical scenarios here. As in: how would it work if GW would actually be willing to sacrifice even the big names.
"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies. This alone is of no concern to myself or the Order. [...]
During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter. Either call in an Inquisitor or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Fleshtearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes."
-- Canoness Carmina
Granted the SOB are very fond of torching stuff, but this still highlight how degenerate the Blood Angels and successors have become. They are two stumbles away from becoming worshipers of Khorne and IIRC the number of renegade Blood Angel successor chapters is by no means insignificant.
Granted, it's the Flesh Tearers, and I really wouldn't compare the Blood Angels to them... yet.
(I just read the short story about Captain Tycho's last fight in an old WD a few days ago, and it actually made me like them a lot more - this is how you write the tragic end of a true hero!)
But all in all, Armageddon 3 and all the fluff surrounding this campaign really showed us a different perspective of the Space Marines, away from the clean and epic Codex legends. Of course you still had heroic feats and brave fights, but you also had deranged cannibals attacking their own allies, honourable Chapters being condemned to a meaningless death by Inquisitorial backstabbing, or enraged Guard Officers and human-hating Marines almost coming to blows over heavy collateral damage resulting out of careless Whirlwind bombardment of overcrowded refugee camps.
Quite a different side to the "veni, vidi, vici" and "rah rah honour epic rah" stories we usually get to read, no? Dirty, and realistic.
You just made me want to find out more about the fate of all those other BA Successor Chapters though ...
Renegade I can only think of 1 and even then they fight for the Imperium.
Every chapter First founding or not hase some sort of flaw, Just becouse ours was inflicted by Chaos does not mean we are any less loyal.
IIRCSoB Open fire on Flesh Terrors on more than one occasion a few times unprovoked.
If we are going to go into Friendly casualtys look at the chapter Marines Malevolent that shelled a Imperial evacuation zone becouse orks had broken the outer lines.
BloodAngels Brother wrote:IIRCSoB Open fire on Flesh Terrors on more than one occasion a few times unprovoked.
Do you have any more information on this? First time I'm hearing this. In terms of "unsanctioned" clashes I've heard only of an incident with the Angels Vermillion, but even there we don't know why it occurred as no details were given.
What do the Celestial Lions have to do with the renegade Red Corsairs, though?
Have to read up on the Knights of Blood. I've heard that name a few times on this forum now, but don't actually know anything about them.
1) The Knights of the Blood have waffled in the fluff. Old fluff has them as full-on Chaos-worshippers, with a profile of the Juggernaut of Khorne as their symbol. The new fluff has them as brutal, violent, but essentially IoM-supporting. There is even evidence that they were just declared renegade due to politics or a misunderstanding of some kind.
2) When I made my initial list, I was intentionally being conservative and favoring the Inquisition in an effort to overcome my own natural pro-Blood Angels bias. I absolutely agree that there is an argument to be made for many of the chapters I wrote would stab the Blood Angels in the back supporting them instead.
"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies. This alone is of no concern to myself or the Order. [...]
During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter. Either call in an Inquisitor or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Fleshtearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes."
-- Canoness Carmina
Granted the SOB are very fond of torching stuff, but this still highlight how degenerate the Blood Angels and successors have become. They are two stumbles away from becoming worshipers of Khorne and IIRC the number of renegade Blood Angel successor chapters is by no means insignificant.
Was that aimed at me?
If so , the image of the Flesh Tearers in this current Blood Angels codex is not identical with the 3rd ed Armageddon fluff.
Sure the authors missed to get the "go down in a blaze of g(l)ory " chance and kept Seth afloat.
But the BA went berzerk in front of the imperial palace before and the plan still is to aim them at the enemy, a plan that works usually. Why change a successful tactic? The end of the timeline of codex BA has chaos and nids coming, so its not impossible to allow those who may stray from the path the Emperor envisioned to repay their debt to Emperor and Primarch, to offer themselves so the IoM can live.
Lynata wrote: I am argueing that "being a Space Marine" is not (or rather: should not) a "get ouf of jail free" card that simply negates any stupid move a Chapter Master might pull. Because some people in this thread seem convinced that this is the case.
Compared to many other imperial subjects a marine has a "get a free call home before they sentence you card ".
As i have pointed out , space marines may account for their deeds, which you could see if you stopped ignoring the fact that even a "success" to sent them on a crusade of penance based on falsified information can lead to your own destruction. Which in and itself was an example of
the Adeptus Astartes not being beyond all and surely no "get out of jail free card" .
Lynata wrote:What lies? Space Marines do not follow the One True Faith, can (depending on the Chapter) be labeled as mutants and (depending on the circumstances) be labeled as traitors if they refused a direct order from a higher authority. Such as the Inquisition.
- The one true faith was founded by a traitor.
- The label of mutants ignores they are created by the God-Emperor himself, thus to criticize them for what they are is to doubt the God-Emperor. Who doubts his works, is a heretic, so these priests shall incinerate themselves.
- There is no direct order from a "higher authority" since this so called "higher authority" can't pull this 24/7. To be precise, an Inquisitor may pull his weight in a war council and have it his way, but he can't order anyone around all day long. They are, singular figures. So this "higher authority" acts like the "secret police " they are, can't just shove their rosette in everyones face when their numbers wouldn't be enough to have one per planet. So labelling one as traitor needs evidence. This means time spent and since we know what a strain it is for the administratum to keep the data of the imperium in check with billlions of those bureaucrats availble, the oh so high authority is most likely aiming for the most dangerous offenders, the ones who start rebellions and such across whole systems. Thus not the space marines.
Becauise 6th ed stated that more worlds than ever a put under the control of the Space marines to stabilize them.
So per 6th ed, trust is in the Adeptus Astartes.
Lynata wrote:
You're mixing things up. It's not "against the forces of the IoM" when it is the IoM that does the preaching. It's called "Excommunicate Traitoris". .
The IoM as an entity would never endorse preaching against the Astartes in general and especially its heritage as the realm of the Emperor, the founder of the Astartes, would only highlight the ecclesiarchy lost on a path opposed to his will.
Last time I checked, GW fluff is filled with inquisitors and members of the ecclesiarchy turning against him on Terra, whilst the mechanicum seems pretty fine with him as the omnissiah..so lets see:
- chances of inquisitors and cardinals ruining the imperial war effort = high
- chances of space marines saving the day after that = high
- in summary = the only neccessary group is the space marines. The other two are acceptle collateral damage.
Lynata wrote:That's why there's the Sisters of Battle, to go around and kill Apostate Cardinals. Oh, and the Ordo Hereticus, which was established after the Age of Apostasy to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.
You should remind the authors then, it seems its the other way round now. Sob sticking with the corrupt ones , ignoring the primary objective.
Lynata wrote:
I like it, I have it (both editions, and the Munitorum Manual too!), but I'd not consider everything it says as 100% representative. Really, do you believe every single trooper is issued all the stuff from that huge list of equipment? Even the Rough Riders or the Vostroyans? In fact, the Mars-Pattern Lasgun supposedly having a charge slider clearly conflicts with GW's own information in the Inquisitor RPG.
Its published on purpose, to allow a peek on what such a pamphlet could look like. I would put it above 3rd party products, as it has a GW product - code and was sold by GW itself even in places where they don't usually have FW,BL,etc to offer.
Serves its purpose too, as being funny. Now if this is 100% representative, Why has it to be this ?
Maybe I don't expect a hobby product that may sink down in a line of products over time to deliver a 100%, since a game universe can and should evolve.
Lynata wrote:
But just on a hypothetical note, even if we take the IIUP as gospel, why do you think it should include (oh, and it doesn't) the heraldry of 1.000 Space Marine Chapters? Would it have enough pages? Do Imperial Guard regiments really operate right next to Astartes Chapter on daily routine?
GW has done about ~200 IIRC heraldries of chapters, so a lot of stuff for your hypothetical missing.
Plus, the trick of GW was to add spikes, to make it chaotic.
Aside from the limits of GW, the imperium has its tacticae, who provide intel about the opposing of the future/current location.
Friend / foe recognition is part of a successful campaign and many things are identified by incomplete sightings in battle, so attacking anything that looks like a rhino is not as good as knowing the difference between a tainted vehicle of the traitor legions and the rhino of the loyal servants of the Emperor who may also field rhinos.
At least those IG regiments who operate at long range ( armored, artillery etc ) should be able to identify their targets without opening their little book each time they use their weapons. So it comes down to the abilities of the recon units and the knowledge of the commanders.
A general may not know a 1k chapters, but his staff can find this out .
Lynata wrote:I wish it had been presented as a saga, that would make it easier to swallow.
That said, Fenris' harsh environment was at least mentioned as having finished off any survivors that were both left behind and not amongst those 10k that were killed by the SW.
Agreed. A clever author had chosen better, like making it Napoleon in Russia in space for example. No 100% copy, no but taking the hint and using the environment as a threat....ah so much potential wasted...
Lynata wrote:
1hadhq wrote:An example of such decree against anyone carriying the legacy of the Legions would be nice. I think this is something that only happens to those having weird names to begin with, whose place is with chaos as their fluff will be part of a CSM codex. So resistance is unneccessary.
You're avoiding the question. We're playing theoretical scenarios here. As in: how would it work if GW would actually be willing to sacrifice even the big names.
No you try to redirect the subject from the BA to a change that will not happen as we know GW isn't going there.
They made a mistake once with the EoT campaign. They learned. ( hard to believe but true ). OtoH they like to sacrifice sisters... And the answer is therefore: GW creates an unimportant chapter and kills it.
Like every other company does.
PS: GW could end the ultramarines vs the tyranids and have successors re-founding them. But they did not.
Well they have 10 thousand years of loyal service to the imperium, their primarch is possibly the most beloved among the loyalist primarchs for his service and sacrifice in battle vs horus.
Frankly the inquisition couldnt care if a bunch of your guys go crazy for the blood of the enemy after ripping them to shreds. As long as its the enemies of the imperium getting killed its all good as far as they care.
1hadhq wrote:If so , the image of the Flesh Tearers in this current Blood Angels codex is not identical with the 3rd ed Armageddon fluff.
Sure the authors missed to get the "go down in a blaze of g(l)ory " chance and kept Seth afloat.
That's not true at all.
You are missing the fact that the timeline is stuck at 999.M41, and the War for Armageddon rages still. The story cannot progress, and this includes the sword of damocles looming over the Flesh Tearers' head.
Thanks for prompting me to take a look at the BA Codex, though - I didn't know the Angels Vermillion, which I recall clashed with the Sororitas in the past, were a BA Successor Chapter. (and the BA fluff is rather interesting in any way; I've read little about them in the past and I feel this should change)
1hadhq wrote:Compared to many other imperial subjects a marine has a "get a free call home before they sentence you card ". As i have pointed out , space marines may account for their deeds, which you could see if you stopped ignoring the fact that even a "success" to sent them on a crusade of penance based on falsified information can lead to your own destruction. Which in and itself was an example of
the Adeptus Astartes not being beyond all and surely no "get out of jail free card" .
Are we talking past each other? Crusades of penance are occasionally imposed (or even self-imposed) for failing to carry out an order. Ongoing sedition from Imperial authority or critical geneseed corruption would obviously warrant a more direct approach, especially since the latter could not be resolved even if the Chapter wanted to. Or do you believe the Flesh Tearers enjoy their flaw? Chapter Master Seth is said to be quite troubled by his Chapter's apparent future.
1hadhq wrote:The one true faith was founded by a traitor.
Fatidicus wasn't a traitor but a loyal officer of the Navy.
1hadhq wrote:The label of mutants ignores they are created by the God-Emperor himself, thus to criticize them for what they are is to doubt the God-Emperor. Who doubts his works, is a heretic, so these priests shall incinerate themselves.
Chaos corrupts even His work, as was obvious during the Horus Heresy. And is mutation not the mark of Chaos? The Preacher said so!
1hadhq wrote:So labelling one as traitor needs evidence. This means time spent and since we know what a strain it is for the administratum to keep the data of the imperium in check with billlions of those bureaucrats availble, the oh so high authority is most likely aiming for the most dangerous offenders, the ones who start rebellions and such across whole systems. Thus not the space marines.
I think you are dismissing the fact that a number of Space Marine Chapters has been purged by Imperial forces in the past.
The "most dangerous offenders" can be Astartes, if their actions and motifs move them into this firing line and call down Inquisitorial scrutiny. I find it ironic how, in one moment, you stress the Space Marines as oh-so-important and influential, but in the very next breath you play them down as not posing any threat to Imperial order at all. The Adeptus Terra has the power to create and destroy Marine Chapters at will, so simply replacing a notorious troublemaker with a "fresh" group of Marines would surely be a more efficient use of the resources consumed by the Astartes?
1hadhq wrote:The IoM as an entity would never endorse preaching against the Astartes in general
Who said they would? Not me.
Unless the Astartes as an entity would move against the IoM, of course.
1hadhq wrote:Last time I checked, GW fluff is filled with inquisitors and members of the ecclesiarchy turning against him on Terra, whilst the mechanicum seems pretty fine with him as the omnissiah..so lets see:
- chances of inquisitors and cardinals ruining the imperial war effort = high
- chances of space marines saving the day after that = high
- in summary = the only neccessary group is the space marines. The other two are acceptle collateral damage.
None of these three groups is truly necessary. Though the Ecclesiarchy is arguably still the most useful of them all, simply because it unites the people with their indoctrination. It is also telling that you immediately throw in the useful Inquisitors and Cardinals with the renegade ones, but ignore the existence of the Chaos Space Marines, or the fact that even now Chapters keep on going rogue.
1hadhq wrote:You should remind the authors then, it seems its the other way round now. Sob sticking with the corrupt ones , ignoring the primary objective.
I don't see this, tbh.
Then again, I'm going by GW fluff. I'm sure there are some weird novels out there where the portrayal might be different.
1hadhq wrote:Its published on purpose, to allow a peek on what such a pamphlet could look like. I would put it above 3rd party products, as it has a GW product - code and was sold by GW itself even in places where they don't usually have FW,BL,etc to offer.
Duh, anything is published on purpose. Doesn't change that it is still a Black Library book, written by freelance authors. Where exactly does "GW itself" sell it in places where they don't offer FW/BL/etc? Because it's not their website, that one has Black Library novels also.
1hadhq wrote:Maybe I don't expect a hobby product that may sink down in a line of products over time to deliver a 100%, since a game universe can and should evolve.
And you are correct in this, at least as far how consistency in 40k is handled. Just like any BL novel, the IIUP is just "one of many lenses to look at the universe", to borrow from ADB's explanation.
I'm just saying you can't cite the IIUP as "evidence" in a discussion about GW fluff. Two different worlds.
1hadhq wrote:Plus, the trick of GW was to add spikes, to make it chaotic.
I'm fairly sure that this is not an in-universe rule on "how to identify Chaos cultists".
1hadhq wrote:A general may not know a 1k chapters, but his staff can find this out .
So, exactly like I said: The Guardsman gets told what to shoot, and he shoots.
1hadhq wrote:No you try to redirect the subject from the BA to a change that will not happen as we know GW isn't going there.
So the whole debate is useless. We all know that GW isn't going to condemn any Chapter that is actually popular on the table. Just like they'd never condemn a Major Order of the Sisters, or one of the big Guard regiments. Because in such an event they'd force a change upon a whole lot of players who would likely not appreciate it.
And even ifGW would be open to do such a thing, any speculation is worthless as the timeline will not move forward. Even if something were "scheduled" to happen in M42, we ain't gonna see it.
What we were discussing here was conclusions and basics of the fluff, ignoring any such limitations like "the timeline ain't gonna move forward" or "this army is too popular with players".
I thought that was obvious?
I dare to say - Inquisition and SoB are lower then IG in popularity amongst fans - First founding legions are just indestructible unlike later random founding chapter's....I'm talking about BL perspective...
Lynata wrote: That's not true at all.
You are missing the fact that the timeline is stuck at 999.M41, and the War for Armageddon rages still. The story cannot progress, and this includes the sword of damocles looming over the Flesh Tearers' head.
Somehow, I don't feel you read both storys. The timeline is and always will be stuck, but that does not matter as armageddon is in 757998M41 and the current end in 995999M41 granting the story of the Flesh Tearers some space to continue.
(and the BA fluff is rather interesting in any way; I've read little about them in the past and I feel this should change)
Lynata wrote: Ongoing sedition from Imperial authority or critical geneseed corruption would obviously warrant a more direct approach, especially since the latter could not be resolved even if the Chapter wanted to. Or do you believe the Flesh Tearers enjoy their flaw? Chapter Master Seth is said to be quite troubled by his Chapter's apparent future.
As it is currently, the BA have a theme the OP didn't catch.
Its about resisting a flaw, to carry on until the end. A bit of a well done base with a touch of a theme to heavy for younger parts of the customer base to get into. Without fear to tread in my posession yet , I am not sure what to think of their past as a given.
The Blood Angels have a violent past and most likly a violent death as their future, but that does not make them fall. They carry on , like their Primarch was willing to sacrifice all he had, dedicating everything to the cause they agreed to serve 10 millenia ago.
Sedition is not their way, they serve in many campaigns and alongside the military arm of the inquisition too.
Even if Seth is troubled, and who wouldn't be, the BA have a history others are jealous of and won't taint their record with a broken oath to the master of mankind. Collateral damage on their way off of the stage is maybe acceptable if the show is epic enough...
1hadhq wrote:The label of mutants ignores they are created by the God-Emperor himself, thus to criticize them for what they are is to doubt the God-Emperor. Who doubts his works, is a heretic, so these priests shall incinerate themselves.
Chaos corrupts even His work, as was obvious during the Horus Heresy. And is mutation not the mark of Chaos? The Preacher said so!
Marines aren't mutants, they are human children to begin with, and the preacher who says otherwise can debate that with a chainsword in his innards and we will see what his real allegiance is...is suspect its one of a cult, but not a pro-imperial one.
I find it ironic how, in one moment, you stress the Space Marines as oh-so-important and influential, but in the very next breath you play them down as not posing any threat to Imperial order at all. The Adeptus Terra has the power to create and destroy Marine Chapters at will, so simply replacing a notorious troublemaker with a "fresh" group of Marines would surely be a more efficient use of the resources consumed by the Astartes?
I ? oh I just following your path.. The adeptus astartes has, as I pointed out earlier, not taken overall command even when they could.
They got however more heaped upon them by the highlords as they seem to be strained and think astartes are a safer bet than other options to keep the whole show from going down the drain. Both taken from the 6th ed timeline.
Sure a replacement could happen and in the case of a fatal loss the importance of continuing the legacy of a fromer Legion would see a name change of an existing successor or a new founding.
1hadhq wrote:The IoM as an entity would never endorse preaching against the Astartes in general
Who said they would? Not me.
not you? Sure?
Lynata wrote: It is also telling that you immediately throw in the useful Inquisitors and Cardinals with the renegade ones, but ignore the existence of the Chaos Space Marines, or the fact that even now Chapters keep on going rogue.
Useful inquisitors? in GW background? Maybe the useless are more fun to write about because I can't actually remember the other group....they are to hidden it seems.
And how could I ignore the CSM? Their whining is in everyones ears...and soon their boasting of their oh so well made choice of choas.
If you want, consider me uncaring for the renegades as their doom is inevitable and we can agree that the newest addition to their ranks was inserted as CSM with a 'loyalist' backstory ( new starter set ) so they never had a active role as loyalists but a history to explain their fall.
Lynata wrote: Duh, anything is published on purpose. Doesn't change that it is still a Black Library book, written by freelance authors. Where exactly does "GW itself" sell it in places where they don't offer FW/BL/etc? Because it's not their website, that one has Black Library novels also.
Short answer: GW stores. Long Answer.
Spoiler:
where I lve, in Germany, GW stores did not carry FW or BL, nor did they sell specialist games usually and surely no 3rd party product.
However, Some products find their way onto these shelfs, the first imperial armor books and a few BL products. The website was the same, got more with the relaunch when they moved from localized versions to a worldwide identical web-site. Sure they added things over time.
But generally only a few are always kept and the 2 small books were part of their line even when the independent LGS carried a greater variety of GW and its sub-companies ranges. Still only whfb, wh40k and lotr in brick&mortar stores of GW around here and nothing from their advertised FW and BL stuff you may see in the WD. Its possible to order a limited range of BL online and fetch it at the store tough.
I'm just saying you can't cite the IIUP as "evidence" in a discussion about GW fluff. Two different worlds.
But.. my copy says I am getting shot if I lose it or allow the enemy to take a peek on the first page. Seriously, as much as I try, can't get behind this. The existance of the IIUP is evidence that the holder of the IP liked the idea of small booklets carried by the basic grunts, something that isn't unknown in real life and I did not propose the content of the IIUP as any form of truth. Just an example of the possible form of such pamphlets. To have a general idea isn't wrong, isn't it?
Not at all .
- A useless debate would be another x vs y universe thread - another missing legions thread without new fluff to chew on - bestest x or y threads etc etc
Don't you think a OP should be active in the thread?
Lynata wrote: What we were discussing here was conclusions and basics of the fluff, ignoring any such limitations like "the timeline ain't gonna move forward" or "this army is too popular with players".
I thought that was obvious?
Obviously the background works within its limitations.
Either the company is accepted as what it is and its published material taken as is too , or you have to limit the playground of the discussion within the available range of 40k related products, like software running in a sandbox.
1hadhq wrote:Somehow, I don't feel you read both storys. The timeline is and always will be stuck, but that does not matter as armageddon is in 757998M41 and the current end in 995999M41 granting the story of the Flesh Tearers some space to continue.
I feel you misunderstood what I was trying to say. The Third War for Armageddon started 757998M41. It is far from over and will continue for several years (according to the most optimistic predictions by Imperial analysts), meaning that it is possible for the Flesh Tearers to have deployed there after "The Darkest Hour" in the BA Codex. Alternatively, their involvement on Armageddon 3 happened before, but they simply relocated their forces until anything could happen.
I don't see the contradiction. Nothing ever happened to the Flesh Tearers yet, so nothing has changed. What the fluff says is that the Chapter is "close to being excommunicated", at which point it would have to face the Imperium's usual cleanup efforts. Due to all of this happening so close to the end of the timeline, this would occur only in M42 either way. But since the timeline does not advance, ...
1hadhq wrote:The Blood Angels have a violent past and most likly a violent death as their future, but that does not make them fall.
I'm still talking about Space Marines in general. Will the Blood Angels ever become as depraved as the Flesh Tearers? Maybe. But they haven't reached this point yet. But we were hypothesising what would happen if they do.
1hadhq wrote:The foundation was laid by Lorgar. Isn't he an arch-traitor?
You are referring to (a) the wrong faith and (b) to Black Library novel interpretation.
Even if you take the novel as gospel, the Lectitio Divinatus is not the Temple of the Emperor Ascendant. Just because both revere the Emperor as a god does not make them equal in origin. Religious reverance for the Emperor spread up across the entire Imperium once he was dead; Fatidicus was merely the most successful (and most influential) preacher, since his powerbase was located on Terra and he was a high-ranking officer in the military. Could they be connected? Maybe, but that's pure conjecture and as likely as the opposite - just that it's disregarding the fact that people would probably be somewhat wary of anything coming from the traitors rather than adopting it.
1hadhq wrote:Marines aren't mutants, they are human children to begin with, and the preacher who says otherwise can debate that with a chainsword in his innards and we will see what his real allegiance is...
I hope you realise that your argument wouldn't actually convince anyone in the setting.
1hadhq wrote:I ? oh I just following your path..
No, you really don't. I'm trying to show you how the average Imperial citizen grows up and what high-ranking Imperial officials may think. You are responding with meta-information that is either of no interest or unavailable to the people in question.
1hadhq wrote:not you? Sure?
Pretty much. I have a rather solid perception of how the Imperium is made up and how it works.
1hadhq wrote:Short answer: GW stores. Long Answer. [...] However, Some products find their way onto these shelfs, the first imperial armor books and a few BL products.
So by your own admission you are wrong.
I'm pretty sure that GW shop owners are free to order what they want (which is why you can order a book at your FLGS), at least anything that is on GW's store website. Which also sells growing number of BL novels.
1hadhq wrote:Seriously, as much as I try, can't get behind this. The existance of the IIUP is evidence that the holder of the IP liked the idea of small booklets carried by the basic grunts, something that isn't unknown in real life and I did not propose the content of the IIUP as any form of truth. Just an example of the possible form of such pamphlets. To have a general idea isn't wrong, isn't it?
That's like saying that the existence of Goto's novels means that "the holder of the IP" likes the idea of Space Marines wielding multilasers.
BL publishes a lot if the day is long. That's a fact. Do you really want me to list the number of instances where the IIUP clashes with Codex fluff?
Just like any BL novel, it is one of many interpretations on the setting. Hell, there's gotta be countless regiments whose troops cannot even read.
1hadhq wrote:Either the company is accepted as what it is and its published material taken as is too , or you have to limit the playground of the discussion within the available range of 40k related products, like software running in a sandbox.
I for one am generally going by the fluff put out by Games Workshop itself, because it's (obviously) closest to how the setting will progress and be further detailed in the various codices and rulebooks and other publications. By limiting myself in this way, I gain an increased consistency and continuity out of the setting.
What material are you going by? I just hope you realise that by basically adopting BL novels and other licensed material "carte blanche" you are creating tons of internal conflicts and contradictions you'd have to resolve somehow by subjectively picking one source over the other.
Don't get me wrong, I'm actually adopting stuff I like from a number of licensed publications as well - but only for my custom version of 40k, which I am not representing here, since I feel that novels are a poor common ground. And we need a common ground to discuss anything, don't we?
Please when your done with this obsession of the stasis of the setting, may we advance to the actual fluff as written in the codex?
Last entry is IIRC about the incoming Demons and tyranids and Dante calling all of the BA successors back to the Baal system.
The Flesh Tearers go there. Plenty of chances to keep or end the chapters involved in this.
The dates are clear, as are the participants. Darkest hour is after armageddon, since Dante calls his companies back from there..
May i also suggest pages 53 and 55 before you return to your scheduled sermon about the timeline? Thanks.
Lynata wrote: I'm still talking about Space Marines in general.
In a Blood Angels thread?
Lynata wrote: Will the Blood Angels ever become as depraved as the Flesh Tearers? Maybe. But they haven't reached this point yet. But we were hypothesising what would happen if they do.
BA are like dwarven slayers, they die. Their theme is to chose death in battle, not to run away like cowardly CSM.
So in your hypothesis, all BA go deathcompany. The trigger is what? right usually a ton of enemies. enemies of the Emperor that is.
So they give their life in his service. Too bad that is exactly what the whole adeptus was created for. So tell me, fullfilling your duty makes you what? A mutant? a traitor? or just shows the foolishness of those who call them this?
1hadhq wrote:The foundation was laid by Lorgar. Isn't he an arch-traitor?
You are referring to (a) the wrong faith and (b) to Black Library novel interpretation.
Maybe, but that's pure conjecture and as likely as the opposite - just that it's disregarding the fact that people would probably be somewhat wary of anything coming from the traitors rather than adopting it.
Wrong faith? Ahh religious war coming to dakka.... should start a thread about the correct faith... Why should one disregard what he can't connect to the original author? It is a possible theory and a funny one, considering Lorgar wanted the deification of the Emperor and the aftermath of the heresy got him what he no longer wants... like shooting in your own foot.
1hadhq wrote:Marines aren't mutants, they are human children to begin with, and the preacher who says otherwise can debate that with a chainsword in his innards and we will see what his real allegiance is...
I hope you realise that your argument wouldn't actually convince anyone in the setting.
The priest and the witnesses of his demise would be very convinced of my argument. Citizens of ultramar most likely would agree with me without a doubt, nocturneans too , etc etc.
Lynata wrote: I'm trying to show you how the average Imperial citizen grows up and what high-ranking Imperial officials may think.
The average citizen of a million worlds grows up exactly like??? ....wait......... Shouldn't ask something you can't answer. No offense to your story writing abilities meant, but still what a person " may " think is not what we know but the image we make of them and then who can be sure nothing got stuck from funny pictures in dakka threads or bad authors dribbling?
GW basic products contain the military part of society and even there its an incomplete picture.
Without BL for example, there is not much of everydays life, no politics, no backstabbing, etc. Really want to show the aspects beyond the battles without the "add on's" ?
Lynata wrote: I have a rather solid perception of how the Imperium is made up and how it works.
Reading your posts I start to doubt it.. Especially this gem:
Hell, there's gotta be countless regiments whose troops cannot even read.
Cannot read.
I wouldn't comment on it if this was WHFB.
But 40k? Sorry, this is a setting closer to the 1900AD than 2000BC in this case.
Stone age worlds have no IG tithe and only xeno scum deems humans as uncivilized as you make them sound here.
I'm pretty sure that GW shop owners are free to order what they want (which is why you can order a book at your FLGS), at least anything that is on GW's store website. Which also sells growing number of BL novels.
So all you got is your guess of what they sell over here and when this isn't what they do I am wrong? Again:
Spoiler:
No GW stores are run by GW, the employees are at best minions and can't do what they want. Like many other companies, but instead of restrictions of the system in use they really carry only a limited range of GW product. Publications of BL and FW had a few weeks at best and were not replaced. The IIUP and the MM started like this but are still available. Ignore the fact those have GW codes all you want, but at least have a look at the backs of FW and BL products, every one sold by GW themselves has the codes, others like the online only HH series has not. So I am not making this difference up.
I would also suggest to consider the fact that FW models aren't sold by GW here at all, some LGS may import them. Notice: independent retail, not GW. The same for IA 3 and up.
If you want the full range, you still have to follow the link at the GW site to its sub-companies.
Do you really want me to list the number of instances where the IIUP clashes with Codex fluff?
Go counting.
Lynata wrote: And we need a common ground to discuss anything, don't we?
Still can't exclude what is not in rulebooks and codices if the only source is a BL product. The decision of nothing or something is no decision at all.
1hadhq wrote:Please when your done with this obsession of the stasis of the setting, may we advance to the actual fluff as written in the codex? Last entry is IIRC about the incoming Demons and tyranids and Dante calling all of the BA successors back to the Baal system. The Flesh Tearers go there. Plenty of chances to keep or end the chapters involved in this. The dates are clear, as are the participants. Darkest hour is after armageddon, since Dante calls his companies back from there.. May i also suggest pages 53 and 55 before you return to your scheduled sermon about the timeline? Thanks.
So what are you trying to tell me? I'm still waiting for you to detail where exactly this supposed conflict to the Armageddon fluff is located.
And just in case you missed it:
Armageddon 3 Campaign Website wrote:+++ Date: 2588999/M41 +++ Ref: Arm/71103491/CTC
+++ By: Canoness Carmina, Order of the Argent Shroud, Fire Wastes
+++ To: General Kurov, Armageddon Command Guard, Infernus Hive
+++ Re: Deviancy within Adeptus Astartes Fleshtearers
The Darkest Hour may be after the beginning of the Third War of Armageddon, but given that the war is still going on (and won't end before M42) it would be quite possible that the Flesh Tearers have actually deployed to this world after "The Darkest Hour".
Though like I said: Even if this is not the case and "The Darkest Hour" takes place after 588999.M41 (which we do not know, but is possible), I still fail to see where the contradiction lies and how this would affect the Flesh Tearers' future. All the Armageddon fluff said was that this Chapter is close to being excommunicated, and since this would arguably happen only in M42, we'll never see it happen - we can only expect it. Why the debate?
1hadhq wrote:In a Blood Angels thread?
Yes, in a Blood Angels thread, because people have escalated this to be an "Astartes issue" by calling on this supposed immunity, which I dispute to this point and have attempted to dispel with my previous posts.
1hadhq wrote:BA are like dwarven slayers, they die. Their theme is to chose death in battle, not to run away like cowardly CSM. So in your hypothesis, all BA go deathcompany. The trigger is what? right usually a ton of enemies. enemies of the Emperor that is. So they give their life in his service. Too bad that is exactly what the whole adeptus was created for. So tell me, fullfilling your duty makes you what? A mutant? a traitor? or just shows the foolishness of those who call them this?
You're either not getting me, or ignoring the points I raise on purpose. First of all, I'm not proposing that "all BA go Death Company", I'm saying there's a chance that they may end up just like the Flesh Tearers one day, and that if this day comes they would have to pay the exact same price.
And no, attacking your own allies because you're in a mindless frenzy and cannot discern between friend or foe anymore is not "fulfilling your duty", it's Khornate madness.
1hadhq wrote:Wrong faith? Ahh religious war coming to dakka.... should start a thread about the correct faith... Why should one disregard what he can't connect to the original author? It is a possible theory and a funny one, considering Lorgar wanted the deification of the Emperor and the aftermath of the heresy got him what he no longer wants... like shooting in your own foot.
This has nothing to do with a religious war, you're just trying to say the 40k version of "Christianity is the same as Islam because they both have people revere a god and his prophets". Which is just plain wrong.
Maybe your novel-invented religion is connected to the Codex one, just like Christianity and Islam share a common origin. But you're saying "it is so" in what appears to be some attempt to taunt me. Perhaps you have misjudged me. I'm a fan of Ecclesiarchy fluff, but I don't take it to extreme lengths in that I identify with it, as certain other fans do with their favourite factions. Indeed, I have often argued against certain posts that have portrayed the Ecclesiarchy or its forces in what I deemed a distorted, too positive light, because each faction having its skeletons in the closet (some more, some less) is what makes them and the entire setting so interesting for me.
Seeing you write about "xeno scum" or gleefully mentioning Black Library's Lectitio Divinatus coming from a CSM when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand makes me think that you should maybe take a step back, too.
1hadhq wrote:The priest and the witnesses of his demise would be very convinced of my argument.
I'll take that as a no, then.
1hadhq wrote:The average citizen of a million worlds grows up exactly like??? ....wait......... Shouldn't ask something you can't answer. No offense to your story writing abilities meant, but still what a person " may " think is not what we know but the image we make of them and then who can be sure nothing got stuck from funny pictures in dakka threads or bad authors dribbling? GW basic products contain the military part of society and even there its an incomplete picture. Without BL for example, there is not much of everydays life, no politics, no backstabbing, etc. Really want to show the aspects beyond the battles without the "add on's" ?
If you've never read of the GW fluff concerning civilian life in the Imperium, then you've simply missed out on it - quite possibly due to a certain disinterest for whatever this fluff was attached for.
The Ecclesiarchy is a factor on every Imperial world (sans AdMech Forgeworlds and Astartes fiefdoms, of course), and the Imperial Cult hold great influence over peoples' lives, including that of numerous officers and every single Commissar in every single Guard regiment.
To form an image of the Imperial citizenry, I don't need any Black Library "add ons" who go into greater detail by gaking all over what GW has established. Codex fluff and a few WD issues are sufficient.
1hadhq wrote:Cannot read. I wouldn't comment on it if this was WHFB. But 40k? Sorry, this is a setting closer to the 1900AD than 2000BC in this case. Stone age worlds have no IG tithe and only xeno scum deems humans as uncivilized as you make them sound here.
Really. I have no idea what kind of imare you have of the Imperial Guard, but it seems much more homogenous than mine.
"Many Imperial Guard regiments are recruited from the savage urban environments of the hive worlds, planets where family- or corporate-based warfare is more or less epidemic. Such troops are battle-hardened long before they are recruited into the Imperial Guard, and are regarded as the best raw material for a fighting regiment. Other favourite recruiting grounds are the feral and medieval planets, as these tend to have a natural warrior caste. These primitive warriors must be thoroughly trained to use modern weapons, but they are not discouraged from native practices, such as head-hunting and the taking of scalps and other trophies. Similarly, the wearing of warpaint and barbarous battle-gear is regarded as perfectly acceptable, as such customs serve to encourage the troops and frighten the enemy." - 2E C:I p26
"Attila is a rough world, inhabited by barbarous horse tribes who are constantly fighting each other." - 3E C:IG p3
"Whilst the majority of Rough Riders are raised from feral, undeveloped worlds this is not exclusively the case." - 5E C:IG p44
"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments change dramatically from world to world. The newly inducted Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun." - 5E C:IG p8
Did you look at some of those example regiments in various Codices such as the 3E one (it had a rather neat list with lots of pictures)? If you think WHFB has primitive armies, you haven't seen the Imperial Guard. There's regiments that go into battle looking like Conan and friends, equipped with fur coats, spears and Aquila tattoos!
1hadhq wrote:Can't be. The spoilered bit was a bit compressed into a few lines but is a honest answer.
A honest answer in which you said your FLGS sells Black Library novels. So what is it now?
Oh, and just because your local store may not have some product in stock right away has little to do with its affiliation to GW and its subsidiaries. Otherwise I'd have to ask you who makes the SoB minis.
1hadhq wrote:So all you got is your guess of what they sell over here and when this isn't what they do I am wrong?
You are wrong when you are contradicting your own statements.
Oh, and I've been born in Germany. I know what they sell "over there".
1hadhq wrote:Go counting.
The two I remember right away (and really the only two that "bother" me at least somewhat):
- IIUP claims that there is a "standard set of issued equipment for Guardsmen", contradicted by various rulebooks and codices including the 5E IG Codex which I have already quoted above
- IIUP claims that the Mars-pattern lasgun has a charge slider, contradicted by 5E C:IG on page 38 as well as the Inquisitor RPG on page 56
The IIUP also claims that flak armour is fashioned from armaplas and ceramics, whereas 1E BRB page 114 says it's air bubbles and plastic, but I'm gonna let this one slide since (a) this one would be really pedantic and (b) you'd probably only protest about Rogue Trader is oh-so-old and anything in it should be forgotten.
1hadhq wrote:Still can't exclude what is not in rulebooks and codices if the only source is a BL product. The decision of nothing or something is no decision at all.
On the contrary, by limiting acceptable evidence to GW fluff we guarantee a common ground. If you throw in BL novels or other licensed products the whole debate only becomes muddled by sub-discussions about how this book is gakky or that book is good, because whether you think something is fitting and want to adopt one into your own personal interpretation of the setting is entirely up to personal preferences and subjective taste.
Lynata wrote:
You are missing the fact that the timeline is stuck at 999.M41, and the War for Armageddon rages still. The story cannot progress, and this includes the sword of damocles looming over the Flesh Tearers' head.
I'm going to stay out of most of the discussion but I will say this;
The Setting is stuck at 999.M41.
The Stories have no such reason to remain here and can freely go in any-which direction they want.
The Setting also ends there for a specific reason, last time I saw the full date written (3rd ed BRB I think) it ends specifically fifteen or so minutes before midnight of the final day of the Millennium.
A game six-turns long, is roughly fifteen minutes in-game time.
Kettu wrote:I'm going to stay out of most of the discussion but I will say this;
The Setting is stuck at 999.M41.
The Stories have no such reason to remain here and can freely go in any-which direction they want.
Well, yeah, but GW ain't going to tell those stories. So we don't really know how the setting would "go on" if the studio writers had their way. We just have some indications to how it "should" proceed, which is what I thought we were talking about?
The timeline not moving on is probably a good thing, though, specifically because a number of their factions - not just the Flesh Tearers - have been maneuvred into a corner they can't get out of again without breaking consistency. The whole setting being frozen in its current state means that all current armies will continue to be playable forever.
Kettu wrote:The Setting also ends there for a specific reason, last time I saw the full date written (3rd ed BRB I think) it ends specifically fifteen or so minutes before midnight of the final day of the Millennium.
A game six-turns long, is roughly fifteen minutes in-game time.
That is ... interesting. I didn't even think of it this way yet.
Armageddon 3 Campaign Website wrote:+++ Date: 2588999/M41 +++ Ref: Arm/71103491/CTC
+++ By: Canoness Carmina, Order of the Argent Shroud, Fire Wastes
+++ To: General Kurov, Armageddon Command Guard, Infernus Hive
+++ Re: Deviancy within Adeptus Astartes Fleshtearers
The Darkest Hour may be after the beginning of the Third War of Armageddon, but given that the war is still going on (and won't end before M42) it would be quite possible that the Flesh Tearers have actually deployed to this world after "The Darkest Hour".
Though like I said: Even if this is not the case and "The Darkest Hour" takes place after 588999.M41 (which we do not know, but is possible), I still fail to see where the contradiction lies and how this would affect the Flesh Tearers' future. All the Armageddon fluff said was that this Chapter is close to being excommunicated, and since this would arguably happen only in M42, we'll never see it happen - we can only expect it. Why the debate?
Imperial Dates ( since 3rd ed for sure ) are 7 digit. You may consider a direct transmission precise, but still any other date is not invalid just because it is provided as a 3 digit set.
So per codex armageddon ( ie the published background of the campaign, ISBN 1-84154-054-4 ) the first invasion was at 941M41.
In 948M41 the defense was analyzed and improved. 50 years used to rebuild, then Ghazzy came back.
Spoiler:
75 years after the 1st invasion ( 941+75 = 1016 great math GW... resolved in 4th BRB as 57 years -) the beast returned.
So 948 or 941 +50 it shall be. Doesn't add up to 999.
So every source puts A3 in the year 998 of M41.
The darkest hour, is put to 999 M41.
Do we agree that 998 and 999 are not the same ?
- codex armageddon forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers
- 6th ed BRB forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers
consistency across 3 editions. Still with me?
- codex BA "darkest hour:" Dante recalls his company of BA from armageddon and requests support from successors and many possible allies. One of the first to respond are the Flesh Tearers and they bring all they have left ( ie the 5 companies from armageddon are included ).
This shows the entry of Codex BA is after armageddon 3 and it spells out the forces recalled to Baal.
I don't see where you get the idea the clearly given locations of the BA and their successors leave any doubt of the order of the fluff.
Begin of A3 = 998. Redeployment to Baal in 999. Its not BC. Its not closing to zero.
Since you insist on this non-existant presence of the FT at the end of 999M41 at Armageddon, there has to be a debate as your "common ground" seems to be your beliefs and not the publications of GW. Wasn't it your take to base this at the 'official' fluff?
If it still is, I would suggest to stop imagining the location of the FT and please accept the fluff as is this time.
Lynata wrote:because people have escalated this to be an "Astartes issue" by calling on this supposed immunity, which I dispute to this point and have attempted to dispel with my previous posts.
Wasn't me who said a 100% immunity is there, but a greater than usual resilience against attempts to question ones loyality is, those who faked the evidence ceased to exist. Not rocket science to spot the difference.
Lynata wrote: First of all, I'm not proposing that "all BA go Death Company", I'm saying there's a chance that they may end up just like the Flesh Tearers one day, and that if this day comes they would have to pay the exact same price.
And no, attacking your own allies because you're in a mindless frenzy and cannot discern between friend or foe anymore is not "fulfilling your duty", it's Khornate madness.
And the Flesh Tearers have the issue that may turn them all into candidates for the DC. So yes, your claim is every son of sanguinius falling to this. Don't try to hide it, this "khornate madness" gives it away, you have the same problem as the OP. Missing the theme of the BA.
Lynata wrote:If you've never read of the GW fluff concerning civilian life in the Imperium, then you've simply missed out on it - quite possibly due to a certain disinterest for whatever this fluff was attached for.
The fluff of civilian life is not in their BRB, or codices, or expansions. Which I as having seemingly nothing better to do tend to read like any other piece from GW from one end to the other. May misremeber or forget things, sure.
Lynata wrote:
To form an image of the Imperial citizenry, I don't need any Black Library "add ons" who go into greater detail by gaking all over what GW has established. Codex fluff and a few WD issues are sufficient.
They gak all over?
I would question the advertisement pamphlet and your lack of love for BL. The early days of the IoM are already given to BL and FW. Its too late to escape them...
Lynata wrote:
"Many Imperial Guard regiments are recruited from the savage urban environments of the hive worlds, planets where family- or corporate-based warfare is more or less epidemic. Such troops are battle-hardened long before they are recruited into the Imperial Guard, and are regarded as the best raw material for a fighting regiment. Other favourite recruiting grounds are the feral and medieval planets, as these tend to have a natural warrior caste. These primitive warriors must be thoroughly trained to use modern weapons, but they are not discouraged from native practices, such as head-hunting and the taking of scalps and other trophies. Similarly, the wearing of warpaint and barbarous battle-gear is regarded as perfectly acceptable, as such customs serve to encourage the troops and frighten the enemy." - 2E C:I p26
"Attila is a rough world, inhabited by barbarous horse tribes who are constantly fighting each other." - 3E C:IG p3
"Whilst the majority of Rough Riders are raised from feral, undeveloped worlds this is not exclusively the case." - 5E C:IG p44
"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments change dramatically from world to world. The newly inducted Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun." - 5E C:IG p8
Did you look at some of those example regiments in various Codices such as the 3E one (it had a rather neat list with lots of pictures)? If you think WHFB has primitive armies, you haven't seen the Imperial Guard. There's regiments that go into battle looking like Conan and friends, equipped with fur coats, spears and Aquila tattoos!
1) Conan was able to read. 2) the IG already got Rambo&co. Adding Conan would guarantee an autowin. 3) WHFB has HRRDN and medieval britain/france. You really claim the IG is less evolved than this?
4) You seem to like 3rd, so something from the 3rd ed BRB:
Worlds of the imperium - (Stone age/feral ) 80.000+ , at pre black powder era, max 5.000.000 souls
- ( feudal ) 40.000+ , around black powder era, max 500.000.000 souls
- ( civilized ) 350.000+ , industrial era , max 10.000.000.000 souls
- ( forgeworlds ) 100.000+ ( no tithe )
- ( hiveworlds ) 140.000+, surely at the level of the industrialized ones,max 500.000.000.000 souls.
Guess the major recrutement sources are worlds whose recruts can read and the fact their populations suggest that the few uneducated regiments are rare. Because the sources of 'barbarians' are just about 12% of the imperial worlds, the educated ones about 50%.
Its also neccessary they understand signs and maps, the IG moves them around a lot and has the time to educate them in transit.
Lynata wrote:Oh, and just because your local store may not have some product in stock right away has little to do with its affiliation to GW and its subsidiaries. Otherwise I'd have to ask you who makes the SoB minis.
A) there is this shiny codex SoB on the shelf and these beautiful plastic minis....Oh wait, thats a daydream. B) there is no local store. But 2 of GW's and a few independents if I feel the urge to drive an hour or so. so no, the GW's carry 3 lines as I said earlier. Feel free to disbelieve me.
Lynata wrote:Oh, and I've been born in Germany. I know what they sell "over there".
Then you left ages ago and things have changed or you mistake the HQ for their usual way to operate.
Not an issue.
Lynata wrote:
- IIUP claims that the Mars-pattern lasgun has a charge slider, contradicted by 5E C:IG on page 38
The IIUP also claims that flak armour is fashioned from armaplas and ceramics, whereas 1E BRB page 114 says it's air bubbles and plastic, but I'm gonna let this one slide since (a) this one would be really pedantic and (b) you'd probably only protest about Rogue Trader is oh-so-old and anything in it should be forgotten.
Right, 1st ed is older than many Dakkanauts and deserves to rest in the memory of the ancient wargamers but this is 2012. Protest given.
The IG codex has a pic, but lists all these different patterns so how did you identify the lasgun when there are 7 of them mentioned?
Lynata wrote:The whole setting being frozen in its current state means that all current armies will continue to be playable forever.
1hadhq wrote:So every source puts A3 in the year 998 of M41.
The darkest hour, is put to 999 M41.
Do we agree that 998 and 999 are not the same ?
I have pointed out several times now that the Third War for Armageddon is (obviously) not limited to a single date. This is when it all starts, and by the moment the timeline stops the war is still raging. I have no idea why you keep going back to the year 998.
1hadhq wrote:- codex armageddon forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers
- 6th ed BRB forces imperialis at A3 : 1 company of BA , 5 companies of Flesh Tearers
The chart is dated 721999.M41, not 998, but that just as a sidenote.
1hadhq wrote:- codex BA "darkest hour:" Dante recalls his company of BA from armageddon and requests support from successors and many possible allies. One of the first to respond are the Flesh Tearers and they bring all they have left ( ie the 5 companies from armageddon are included ).
See, here you've finally established a fact. I had forgotten that the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers were on Armageddon simultaneously, but the chart clearly shows they were. So, when the Flesh Tearers were following the BA, it obviously must occur after 721999.M41, which was when the chart's "snapshot" was taken.
They sure redeploy fast, don't they.
1hadhq wrote:Since you insist on this non-existant presence of the FT at the end of 999M41 at Armageddon [...]
Are you skipping parts of my posts on purpose? I did not "insist" on it, I named it as one of two options, the other being the one you've now proven. Scroll up.
And I am still waiting for you to show me where the sources contradict regarding the future of the Flesh Tearers. The actual issue we've been talking about? The thing that led us to this debate?
1hadhq wrote:Wasn't me who said a 100% immunity is there, but a greater than usual resilience against attempts to question ones loyality is, those who faked the evidence ceased to exist. Not rocket science to spot the difference.
Chapters, such as that of Lord Caustos, have been excommunicated "based on somewhat flimsy and circumstantial evidence", to quote the Index Astartes. I'm not aware of any Inquisitor in GW's fluff actually faking proof, though I guess it's possible. *shrug*
Anyways, I was not aware we were even discussing the quality of any hypothetical evidence. Is this an attempt at opening up a new sub-section of the debate, or were you just trying to taunt me?
Regarding the immunity, you were happy to chime in, though. What was it you said ... ah, yes:
"The original subject of this thread, the Blood Angels, would send Mephy to meet the =I=. Stare at him/her. See them leave in a hurry to never return into imperial space. Case closed. "
1hadhq wrote:And the Flesh Tearers have the issue that may turn them all into candidates for the DC. So yes, your claim is every son of sanguinius falling to this. Don't try to hide it, this "khornate madness" gives it away, you have the same problem as the OP. Missing the theme of the BA.
It's not only the Death Company that has "issues" in the Flesh Tearers.
Also ... excuse me? "Same problem as the OP"? I think it's you who is missing something - the topic I am discussing, which was not the Blood Angels' theme at all but any Space Marine Chapter's risk to fall under Inquisitorial scrutiny or face various penalties for any transgressions.
1hadhq wrote:The fluff of civilian life is not in their BRB, or codices, or expansions. Which I as having seemingly nothing better to do tend to read like any other piece from GW from one end to the other. May misremeber or forget things, sure.
Then I suggest you read back up on books such as the SoB Codices or the Inquisitor and Necromunda games, which go into some depth regarding civilian life. Hell, even the rulebooks talk about it. It's hard not to talk about civilians at all when describing a nation, much more when you are describing its priests whose sole purpose is to interact with said civilians.
1hadhq wrote:They gak all over? I would question the advertisement pamphlet and your lack of love for BL. The early days of the IoM are already given to BL and FW. Its too late to escape them...
Sure I can escape them. I can ignore them just like GW does. Or other BL authors.
I read BL novels because of the stories they tell, not because they add detail to the world. Because the only world they add detail to is the world represented in that one book (or series of books). I value consistency too much to bother with that sort of stuff.
I still have an email in my inbox from my editor, asking “Why didn’t you reference X in your novel?”
I also have my reply. It says, quite simply, “Because X sucks, and so does the guy who wrote it.” -- Aaron Dembski Bowden
1hadhq wrote:WHFB has HRRDN and medieval britain/france. You really claim the IG is less evolved than this?
Again with "the IG".
There is no "the IG". There are countless regiments from countless different worlds, all with different uniforms, different customs, different tactics ... and get this, a different level of education!
And yeah, when the Codex talks about "feral tribes", I'd say that does sound a little less involved than medieval Britain/France.
1hadhq wrote:Guess the major recrutement sources are worlds whose recruts can read and the fact their populations suggest that the few uneducated regiments are rare. Because the sources of 'barbarians' are just about 12% of the imperial worlds, the educated ones about 50%.
Maybe your guess is right, maybe (see that 2E Codex quote) it's not. I still don't see why you simply discard those 12% - which would actually amount to a whole lot of regiments on a galactic scale.
Just as a reminder, I never said "all of the IG can't read", I said there will be some regiments who don't. Which for some reason you are dead-set against.
1hadhq wrote:Its also neccessary they understand signs and maps, the IG moves them around a lot and has the time to educate them in transit.
Necessary? Not at all. It is necessary that they fight and die. The rest is up to the Officers and Commissars in charge.
1hadhq wrote:so no, the GW's carry 3 lines as I said earlier. Feel free to disbelieve me.
Why should I? You're just repeating what I said all along.
Quick recap: I said the IIUP is as good as any BL novel. Then you said that, for some reason, "it's more important" and attempted to prove this by GW apparently selling it in their shops, to which I replied that they also sell novels in shops.
So ... what exactly are you trying to say now?
1hadhq wrote:The IG codex has a pic, but lists all these different patterns so how did you identify the lasgun when there are 7 of them mentioned?
The IG Codex mentions several patterns of lasguns (including the Mars which is featured in the IIUP), but singles out the Triplex as the one having a charge slider. Which is 100% consistent with the Inquisitor RPG. The IIUP thus contradicts both these GW sources.
1hadhq wrote: This saves your army too.
Apart from my army being a Minor Order of my own making, and thus having 0% representation in GW fluff, the Sisters of Battle do now show any signs of trouble regarding their continued existence. Much like, say, the Ultramarines or the Valhallans. The number of armies who appear "threatened" is actually extremely low, though even excommunication would not necessarily just "kill off" the Flesh Tearers. They could survive and simply become a rogue Chapter like the Sons of Malice. But many people would probably still not like being pushed into the Chaos camp.
Or are you referring to the Imperium's existence as a whole? Because I'm not amongst those who believe that the entire Imperium of Man would somehow cease to exist in M42. All signs are just pointing at a tough time ahead, but that could mean anything.
By the way, just got my hands on Index Astartes IV - the article about Rogue Space Marine Chapters is rather interesting as it details how exactly the process of excommunication works and how the Imperium acts in such events, or what it takes to get on the Inquisition's target list. Very recommendable.
Regarding the immunity, you were happy to chime in, though. What was it you said ... ah, yes:
"The original subject of this thread, the Blood Angels, would send Mephy to meet the =I=. Stare at him/her. See them leave in a hurry to never return into imperial space. Case closed. "
Am sorry, missed the message we are restricted to super-serious replies. Can't have dakkanauts posting anything but canonical facts.
Lynata wrote: I think it's you who is missing something -
again, no. I see where you attempt to steer the debate to and I am trying to keep it on track.
Lynata wrote: Then I suggest you read back up on books such as the SoB Codices or the Inquisitor and Necromunda games, which go into some depth regarding civilian life.
Somehow, I feel that WD dex doesn't contain much about the civilian life...
Plus your thing of no BL means I am going to discard the specialist games and 3rd party stuff
1hadhq wrote:Guess the major recrutement sources are worlds whose recruts can read and the fact their populations suggest that the few uneducated regiments are rare. Because the sources of 'barbarians' are just about 12% of the imperial worlds, the educated ones about 50%.
Maybe your guess is right, maybe (see that 2E Codex quote) it's not. I still don't see why you simply discard those 12% - which would actually amount to a whole lot of regiments on a galactic scale.
Maybe the game had a reboot at 3rd ed? Maybe we could use material the majority of readers has access to? So lots of may-be 's... To discard the importance of 12% of the sources when said sources got a low population and point out the ( 5th ed IG ) billions of regiments
are most likely founded where a regiment can be aquisitioned without too much extra effort of the munitorum needs explanation?
Fine, think about the available pool of recruts at the 50% of the more advanced sources. Consider the possibility industrialized worlds may equip them at a higher standard and surely without additional training to know how to hold that lasgun they all seem to get.
Compare that to the 12% with low standards and a limited pool of recruts. Plus the fact some of those worlds are handed to the astartes, who indoctrinate them and thus their new members are able to read.
The overwhelming mass of regiments will come from the 50% is not a bad guess IMO. Half of the IoM contributing 50+x% seems correct to me and there is almost nothing to make the exception ( a few regiments from the 12% ) having any significant influence at the picture of
" average joe guardsmen " .
Lynata wrote: I never said "all of the IG can't read", I said there will be some regiments who don't.
'sorry, your claim was average joe guardsmen can't read. I take it you retract that imprecise statement?
1hadhq wrote:Its also neccessary they understand signs and maps, the IG moves them around a lot and has the time to educate them in transit.
Necessary? Not at all. It is necessary that they fight and die. The rest is up to the Officers and Commissars in charge.
So hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen ( per cruddys take on the size of regiments ) are led around by a few officers and commissars ( which are so far in the minority if we run with cruddys take on the structure of the IG ) and don't need to understand what they see?
Fine, they don't even get to the battlefield because of their inabitlity. Isn't it unfair to deny them their chance to serve?
Lynata wrote: You're just repeating what I said all along.
Quick recap: I said the IIUP is as good as any BL novel. Then you said that, for some reason, "it's more important" and attempted to prove this by GW apparently selling it in their shops, to which I replied that they also sell novels in shops.
So ... what exactly are you trying to say now?
OK. youre unwilling to accept the way it is.
Am saying that anything running with a GW code is different from things jut sporting ISBN code.
But I doubt you are interested in this..
1hadhq wrote:So what is it now ? Flesh Tearers or general space marines of all flavors?
This sub-section of our debate was concerning the Flesh Tearers. You said the 3E fluff contradicts with the 6E fluff. I'm still waiting on you explaining how, because I don't see it.
1hadhq wrote:Why should I taunt you with every other post?`
I don't know, I'm asking you. I've noticed that a (small) number of posters here like to bash another poster's favourite army whenever they disagree on something.
1hadhq wrote:Am sorry, missed the message we are restricted to super-serious replies. Can't have dakkanauts posting anything but canonical facts.
In a discussion about canonical facts?
Perhaps you should use a disclaimer like "this post is not intended to contribute to the topic at hand" or something then.
1hadhq wrote:again, no. I see where you attempt to steer the debate to and I am trying to keep it on track.
Oh? Where am I trying to steer the debate? All I did was pointing out that Marine Chapters in general aren't as immune to Inquisitorial/Imperial authority as a lot of people seem to think. You disputed this, so you were opening up this sub-section for debate.
We can "agree to disagree" anytime. Just give the word. Otherwise I'll continue to point out what it says in GW's fluff any time you make a claim that contradicts it.
1hadhq wrote:Somehow, I feel that WD dex doesn't contain much about the civilian life...
Plus your thing of no BL means I am going to discard the specialist games and 3rd party stuff
3rd party stuff, yes, of course. Specialist Games are GW, however.
And I can't change anything about your feelings, I can only point out that the fluff goes into quite some detail when it comes to the interaction between the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial citizenry.
1hadhq wrote:Maybe the game had a reboot at 3rd ed? Maybe we could use material the majority of readers has access to? So lots of may-be 's...
So you're saying that we are supposed to drop any fluff before 6th Edition now?
1hadhq wrote:'sorry, your claim was average joe guardsmen can't read. I take it you retract that imprecise statement?
Please read my posts more carefully. I said:
"Hell, there's gotta be countless regiments whose troops cannot even read" (14th post on page 3) which carries quite a different connotation to what you are trying to put into my mouth.
1hadhq wrote:So hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen ( per cruddys take on the size of regiments ) are led around by a few officers and commissars ( which are so far in the minority if we run with cruddys take on the structure of the IG ) and don't need to understand what they see?
Fine, they don't even get to the battlefield because of their inabitlity. Isn't it unfair to deny them their chance to serve?
Why should they "not even get to the battlefield"? Spatial and aerial (re)deployments are handled by the Imperial Navy, though even if they march on foot (like many other regiments do, considering that they're not all mechanized or mounted), it only takes a single person with a compass (to be found in the HQ section) to get them wherever they're needed.
Hell, the first study of literacy in the British Army in 1858 found that only 1/3 of all soldiers was to some degree literate. Obviously it did not pose a serious issue. I'm not sure that you truly realise that there is a vast difference between the level of autonomy required from modern day soldiers to their comrades throughout the past couple centuries, or various regiments hailing from a similar culture in 40k. In the 41st millennium, there's not even a truly uniform language across these regiments, which would obviously carry over into the written material. Why do you think a Sororitas translator is required for greater campaigns that involve forces from a multitude of worlds?
1hadhq wrote:OK. youre unwilling to accept the way it is.
Am saying that anything running with a GW code is different from things jut sporting ISBN code.
But I doubt you are interested in this..
Why should they "not even get to the battlefield"?
Can't prod them like cattle 24/7 , given Cruddys idea of organization.
Lynata wrote: it only takes a single person with a compass (to be found in the HQ section) to get them wherever they're needed.
No.
Lynata wrote: I'm not sure that you truly realise that there is a vast difference between the level of autonomy required from modern day soldiers to their comrades throughout the past couple centuries, or various regiments hailing from a similar culture in 40k.
So this irrelevant autonomy has what to do with the fact of the IG commonly deployed away from their home turf?
With the fact that an overall command can move millions of them without translators?
With the fact that even the lowliest level of technology increases the benefits of the ability to read on its way further up to a point where those inable to are near useless. I think you should accept the fact the IG operates on a mix of WW1 tactics and design plus hi-tech weapons.
Not a place for napoleonic era line infantry, nor ancient phalanx or any other example you will come up with.
May also point to the supply of the IG ,the munitorum, which is able to interact with the IG Galaxy wide and as they are as bureaucratic as anyone else in logistics, they will insist in filled forms, in correct identifications of any goods and there is no way in hell an illiterate bunch of savages gets any food, water, ammo , fuel if they don't deal with them as expected.
And I stop now because this is so far off-track, I can only congratulate you to this effort to turn a pointless thread into a open can of worms.
1hadhq wrote:Nice attempts. But sorry not interested enough to deal with it that late ( 0100 ).
I apologize if I accidentally bashed anything you hold dear.
No worries. People have different things they like/dislike, so it's more or less inevitable that it carries over into a debate on some level, like my constant yammering about the Space Wolves' plot armour.
Still waiting on that supposed contradiction, though. Or are you retracting that comment? Because what I am holding dear is my reputation as fluff-nut.
1hadhq wrote:None of my claims contradicted GW. They do however share a certain level of incompatibility with your views.
Oh? Do point them out, please.
1hadhq wrote: Right now, its the 1st of September the new dawn of 40k, confirmed by GW'S launch of the starter, all hail 6th ed! So please get off of that path to a troll-cave. We both know that I did not say you should drop 3rd , 4th and 5th ed.
No, actually I don't know why you brought it up in the first place. That's why I was asking.
People around here all have different ideas what qualifies as a "valid" source, after all, so clearing up what we go by is important for any debate.
1hadhq wrote:Can't prod them like cattle 24/7 , given Cruddys idea of organization.
You can tell them "go there" or "camp", though. How do you think it works for Ogryns?
1hadhq wrote: No.
Yes.
1hadhq wrote:So this irrelevant autonomy has what to do with the fact of the IG commonly deployed away from their home turf?
Nothing. What has literacy or lack thereof to do with this fact?
1hadhq wrote:With the fact that an overall command can move millions of them without translators?
Source pls.
1hadhq wrote:With the fact that even the lowliest level of technology increases the benefits of the ability to read on its way further up to a point where those inable to are near useless.
Obviously, the fact that a single trooper's literacy or lack thereof is rather meaningless if he's never going to hold a book in his hand anyways, when all of these things are dealt with by other, more suitable personnell.
You really must think that all Imperial worlds have some sort of school system where people learn their alphabets. Since you already brought up Hive worlds as a vast source of manpower: Do you honestly believe that all those gangs of underhive street thugs that get turned into IG regiments train their youngsters in the art of reading in the midst of their gang wars? Because it's oh-so important for their pitiful lives that have them beg for scraps on the streets, harvest people for organs or wither away in some giant manufactorium where they screw cogs all day long? If so, I'm sorry, but I just don't see it that way.
1hadhq wrote:I think you should accept the fact the IG operates on a mix of WW1 tactics and design plus hi-tech weapons. Not a place for napoleonic era line infantry, nor ancient phalanx or any other example you will come up with.
I think the Mordian Iron Guard and the Asgardian Rangers would like to have a word with you, to name just two examples. You can find more in the 3E Guard Codex; it has a rather impressive list of how diverse the Imperial Guard can be. The Patrians look a bit like Maya, even.
1hadhq wrote:May also point to the supply of the IG ,the munitorum, which is able to interact with the IG Galaxy wide and as they are as bureaucratic as anyone else in logistics, they will insist in filled forms, in correct identifications of any goods and there is no way in hell an illiterate bunch of savages gets any food, water, ammo , fuel if they don't deal with them as expected.
And this requires the common soldier in that regiment to be literate how ...?
1hadhq wrote:And I stop now because this is so far off-track, I can only congratulate you to this effort to turn a pointless thread into a open can of worms.
I am open to continue this via private message, too. I just can't stand what I am convinced are false claims to be posted where everyone can see them. People might end up actually believing it. I'm sure you feel likewise, else you wouldn't have gone through all this effort yourself.
BlaxicanX wrote:Logan Grimnar literally slaughtered both a Grey Knights grandmaster and an Inquisitor Lord shortly after that, in The Emperor's Gift.
Okay, a novel then. I'll keep that out of my personal interpretation, as I think there would be repercussions for this.
What some people who like to keep bringing this up often forget is who did the cutting. It was Logan Grimnar who did it. Not some wet behind the ears Bloodclaw. This guy has been the Chapter master (Great Wolf) of the entire Space Wolves organization for over 700 years. Who knows how long he was in the service of the IOM before making that title. His heroic deeds and selfless servitude to the IOM is legendary. The Sagas of his deeds fill entire rooms in the Great Hall of the Fang.
That makes precisely zero difference. The only thing, IMO, that prevented the annihilation of the SW was the fact that Inquisitor in question was extremely unpopular, to the point where an organised 'resistance' had sprung up within the Inquisition ranks with the aim of assassinating him. The situations surrounding the various infractions by the SW must also be taken into account. Teleporting onto the bridge of an enemy warship actively engaged in a bombardment on your homeworld and killing the enemy commander is a very different situation to murdering an Inquisitor in cold blood.
The Inquisition has the capacity to eradicate chapters of Marines, regardless of their history or standing in the Imperium, and has done so in the past. The SW in particular are vulnerable, having isolated themselves from the Ecclesiarchy as well as the Inquisition and Administratum. None of the heavy hitters in the Imperium are going to defend them, if the decision were made to excommunicate them.
1hadhq wrote:With the fact that an overall command can move millions of them without translators?
Source pls.
See this great range of products of GW&co ? I doubt you have a chance to miss a source in that big pile.
Lynata wrote: Obviously, the fact that a single trooper's literacy or lack thereof is rather meaningless if he's never going to hold a book in his hand anyways, when all of these things are dealt with by other, more suitable personnell.
Obviously, the trooper not holding a book in his hands is punished ( see IIUP ).
Seems you like running in circles.
I just can't stand what I am convinced are false claims to be posted where everyone can see them. People might end up actually believing it.
Since there are zero false claims in posts I wrote ( as everything seen on the web must be right ) and the chance people believe me are low, where is the risk? That one could make a mistake? Really? In a world of humans, mistakes are inevitable. Who says otherwise is a liar.
^ this website actually hosts the Index Astartes article I mentioned earlier. Well worth a read!
to quote this source:
The long and proud history of these and other ancient chapters has to date shielded them from the attentions of the Ordo Hereticus, but other, less renowned chapters are not so immune to the Inquisition's scrutiny, and they may find themselves under investigation should an Inquisitor suspect serious heresy.
Found where the idea of increased protection may come from.
1hadhq wrote:It will save his life, so he has something to offer to the Emperor, maybe ?
It may also save his life if he actually wears a flak vest, yet some regiments go into battle bare-chested.
If may also save his life going into battle with a weapon, yet some regiments don't receive a sufficient number of them.
It may also save his life not stepping on a mine, yet some regiments are used to clear minefields for tanks.
It may also save his life sitting inside an armoured vehicle, yet some regiments ride into battle on horses.
Welcome to the Imperial Guard.
1hadhq wrote:to quote this source:
The long and proud history of these and other ancient chapters has to date shielded them from the attentions of the Ordo Hereticus, but other, less renowned chapters are not so immune to the Inquisition's scrutiny, and they may find themselves under investigation should an Inquisitor suspect serious heresy.
Yes, the important bit being "to date". Which is obvious, given that no investigation has happened so far.
Unless you include BL novels, which is when the whole house of cards comes crashing down, as they escalate the latent potential for conflict to a level not taken into consideration by GW.
1hadhq wrote:Found where the idea of increased protection may come from.
Which I never objected, if you'd read my posts carefully.
There is no way to alter my image of the trooper in question so I am willing to grant you a chance to leave. One time offer. Free and no compensation expected before hell freezes over.
It may also save his life if he actually wears a flak vest, yet some regiments go into battle bare-chested.
If may also save his life going into battle with a weapon, yet some regiments don't receive a sufficient number of them.
It may also save his life not stepping on a mine, yet some regiments are used to clear minefields for tanks.
It may also save his life sitting inside an armoured vehicle, yet some regiments ride into battle on horses.
Welcome to the Imperial Guard.
- welcome to john rambo the movie.
- welcome to bad writing
- welcome to more bad writing
- welcome to the UK. They still have Horses...
Yes, the important bit being "to date". Which is obvious, given that no investigation has happened so far.
Did it not happen? the codex BA suggested it did...
But we have more in this Lynata approved source :
On occasion, it may be an Inquisitor who moves against a chapter. Such action would only be considered in the most extreme of circumstances, as an entire chapter of Space Marines is a foe that few armies could hope to challenge.
It can be estimated however, that as many as a dozen chapters may have been completely destroyed
Such an event is of such import as to attract the attention of the High Lords of Terra themselves, and no Inquisitor would bring such accusations without very convincing evidence indeed.
On other occasions, it may be sufficient for Inquisitor to approach the Masters of other chapters. To a Space Marine the very notion of a brother exceeding his Emperor-given mandate is anathema, it is to disobey the direct word of the Emperor himself, and so a simple word in the ear of a Chapter Master may bring about the censure or outright subjugation of the chapter in question.
Thus its rare ( a dozen ) and not dished out lightly ( attention of high lords = consent? ) and another chapter may take action also ( relatives? ).
Reduces the number of chapters who have failed and IMO some should drop their idea of the inquisition handing out purges like there is no tommorrow.
1hadhq wrote:Did it not happen? the codex BA suggested it did...
For the Blood Angels? That would be weird. Can you point out where?
1hadhq wrote:Thus its rare ( a dozen ) and not dished out lightly ( attention of high lords = consent? ) and another chapter may take action also ( relatives? ).
Reduces the number of chapters who have failed and IMO some should drop their idea of the inquisition handing out purges like there is no tommorrow.
You seem to have missed that part where it says that in addition to this dozen there are some more who have been excommunicated but are "still at large". The Sons of Malice would be an obvious example. Also, there would be those cases of Marine Chapters that have not been officially excommunicated, but still destroyed by the Inquisition in some dick move, such as the Celestial Lions.
And no, the attention of the High Lords does not amount to a need for consent. The Inquisition stands apart from the Imperial Senate and acts on the Emperor's own authority. In this, I suppose one could say they are on somewhat equal footing, yet specialising on different areas where they exert their power and influence. Ultimately, even a High Lord can find himself under investigation. The Ordo Hereticus was founded with specifically this intention in the wake of Vandire's madness.
Still, the High Lords have much influence themselves. Due to the Inquisition's internal rivalries, placing their weight behind another Inquisitor who would accuse his or her brethren of treason would undoubtedly influence how the Inquisition as a whole deals with the matter at hand. Even if the accused is a particularly powerful individual with lots of connections, in a direct bid for power I think the High Lords would come out on top as long as they present a unified front. After all, the Inquisition's resources are largely borrowed from other organisations. Hence it is in the Inquisition's own interest that notorious troublemakers are dealt with. This does not only concern accusations made against the Space Marines, by the way. The Witch Hunters Codex also contains an interesting story about Karamazhov and how other Inquisitors reacted to the Ecclesiarchy's protests against him imprisoning a potential Saint.
And this is why connections are important for Space Marines as well, by the way. I believe the Blood Angels will find many supporters in other organisations, simply due to their history and because (as far as I recall) they haven't given anyone else the finger. However, what if an Inquisitor accuses the Space Wolves? How many High Lords would protest, and how many would lean back and watch in satisfaction, or perhaps even use their own political weight to block any attempts to aid them?
That being said, these considerations would actually only play a role if a conflict stretches out over a prolonged time. As we have seen, an Inquisitor has the necessary authority to order an attack on a Chapter they deem guilty. It would take weeks if not months for the High Lords to notice, let alone intervene (again, see Karamazhov). Hence, I'd assume that it all depends on how an Inquisitor would approach the matter. Will he cautiously attempt to investigate, or will he try to force his way in? If the Chapter ends up destroyed but the Inquisitor survives, will he be able to deal with the backlash from his peers, or will he be hailed as a heroic uncoverer of taint? Very circumstancial, and depending on the Inquisitor's own pull and influence as much as that of his enemies (some of whom could have a good working relationship with the Marines).
I don't think an Inquisitor would approach the "relatives" of a Chapter he or she wishes to attack, though. Inquisitors likely have a list of "reliable" forces, amongst them a number of Adeptus Astartes Chapters who have proven themselves loyal and untiring destroyers of the taint of Chaos. In the CJ Strikeforce article, it was even pointed out that involving another Chapter is an option usually shunned and that the Battle Sisters are preferred, since some Marines may pick their brethren over the Imperium. In many cases, it'd be a risk not worth taking, I guess. But again, very circumstancial. Here, it would depend on the Chapters in question, how obvious the corruption is, what history the accused and the allied Chapter share, etc.
And no, the Inquisition isn't handing out "purges like there's no tomorrow" - but at the same time they do not flinch back from doing what they deem as necessary, as should also be obvious from the article. There's not a lot of Chapters around, so even if excommunication only happens every few centuries, that's still a rather big setback for the IoM, considering what they'd lose in the accused Chapter itself.
Lynata wrote: That being said, these considerations would actually only play a role if a conflict stretches out over a prolonged time. As we have seen, an Inquisitor has the necessary authority to order an attack on a Chapter they deem guilty. It would take weeks if not months for the High Lords to notice, let alone intervene (again, see Karamazhov). Hence, I'd assume that it all depends on how an Inquisitor would approach the matter. Will he cautiously attempt to investigate, or will he try to force his way in?
OTOH, scrounging up the forces to attack a Chapter stronghold will also take time and require preparations. Time and warning enough that I'd guess many inquisitors don't manage to pull it off before someone else gets wind of it and maybe does something. After all, a responsible inquisitor won't just try to requisition a battleship group with a full IG siege army onboard without considering where those assets are going and what the results will be if they don't get there. And any ally of the Chapter might hear of this gathering of forces and send his veto.
My point being that attacking a Chapter is a serious matter, and one that a single inquisitor isn't likely going to either wish to be responsible for or able to pull off. It would take several of them working together to smooth over the effects of collecting the forces for it and to keep others from interfering.
SaintTom wrote: When it happens to the Space Wolves, then the Blood Angels would have to worry about being next, til then its because they're from the original legions and plot armor.
So if you're from the original legions, you can commit heresy just fine?
I only say that because for all intents and purposes, the Death company *are* heretics.
And just look at this guy:
I mean. That's a mutant. Right there. Clearly a bad egg to boot.
On the contrary, Astorath is like the Grim Reaper, and he handles all of the death company that don't die on the battlefield.
The Blood Angels police themselves with him and with the chaplains so that they don't all go crazy.
Spetulhu wrote:OTOH, scrounging up the forces to attack a Chapter stronghold will also take time and require preparations. Time and warning enough that I'd guess many inquisitors don't manage to pull it off before someone else gets wind of it and maybe does something.
Depends. How would anyone else get wind of it? Sure, if the Inquisitor makes a big show of how he's going to return with a battlegroup, or goes around asking other Marine Chapters (which, according to the CJ Strikeforce article, most Inquisitors dislike to do as their reaction may not exactly be foreseeable) ... but otherwise?
Spetulhu wrote:After all, a responsible inquisitor won't just try to requisition a battleship group with a full IG siege army onboard without considering where those assets are going and what the results will be if they don't get there.
Depends on the individual - I think many would. But let's just say they ask, they still wouldn't have to reveal what they plan to do with these troops.
Spetulhu wrote:My point being that attacking a Chapter is a serious matter, and one that a single inquisitor isn't likely going to either wish to be responsible for or able to pull off. It would take several of them working together to smooth over the effects of collecting the forces for it and to keep others from interfering.
Absolutely, which is why I believe that most such efforts are done by a conclave of Inquisitors as opposed to an individual. It's just safer this way and eliminated the potential for inside sabotage.
On the other hand, this would indeed come with the risk that one of them might tip off a rival of the leading Inquisitor... or even the accused Chapter itself.
But lone Inquisitors seem perfectly capable of pulling such things off themselves, as we can see with the Sons of Malice. Unfortunately we do not know what would have happened to her if Inquisitor Pietas had actually survived this incident, but the Imperium obviously felt obliged to heed the excommunication, seeing that further troops were diverted to finish the job left by her quickly assembled yet defeated strike force. Maybe that was one of her mistakes - she pressed the issue and didn't want to wait any longer. Not even until she had the necessary military strength required for a successful assault.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:How are Death Company heretics?
I suppose some people think they qualify as heretics/mutants. In the strictest sense, it's true, but the Blood Angels seem to have them well in hand so that things don't get out of control. Their reputation thus makes the Imperium just "look the other way" as long as this stability is maintained.
At least that was my impression.
Lynata wrote: You seem to have missed that part where it says that in addition to this dozen there are some more who have been excommunicated but are "still at large".
These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.
1hadhq wrote:These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.
"a thousand Chapters" lost would wipe out the Astartes as any meaningful force in the galaxy. They are already a far cry from being the pillar of the Imperium's existence they were during the Great Crusade - a role now taken over by the Imperial Guard - but this would pretty much finish them off.
As far as the dozen purges (and the couple more excommunicated but surviving Chapters) go, no, these numbers aren't significant. Just proof that the Inquisition will act when a bunch of Marines like, say, the Flesh Tearers, cross the line.
The Blood Angels on the other hand I still see as being save from investigation, as they are quite simply not as "conspicuous" in their geneseed flaw but pretty much have it under control. Coupled with the Chapter's glorious history, the Imperium as a whole would simply not see any reason to involve themselves in it It's an internal matter, so to say. Much like the cannibalistic practices that seem to be relatively common throughout the Astartes (Pietas condemning the Sons of Malice for it would thus likely qualify as overzealousness by her more moderate brethren within the Inquisition).
1hadhq wrote:The =I= isn't important for the game nor the background. Guess who could be destroyed by a dick move of GW?
So no, dick moves don't count.
Are you mixing the fluff with real world company policies again? That's not how this works, so yes, dick moves "do count". Unless you simply want to ignore the Celestial Lions' fate as having not happened in your interpretation of the 'verse.
1hadhq wrote:I'd say index astartes IV is clear they may not flinch but they seem to know that even they are not untouchable.
"Untouchable"? That really depends on how you define this term. The only person in the Imperium having any authority to order an arrest or execution on an Inquisitor would be ... yup, another Inquisitor.
Of course anyone could just kill them, but this means (a) getting to them first and (b) potential further consequences, depending on the Inquisitor in question.
What the Index Astartes article talks about is that a successful attempt to excommunicate a Marine Chapter takes some foresight and careful collection of evidence and political allies. As I said, any Inquisitor could still just flash his rosette and attack just like Pietas did, but this would not necessarily be a good move for their career, regardless of whether or not this attack was successful. I suppose a successful purge would make things easier, for any survivors would surely call in a lot of contacts and favours to see this Inquisitor himself investigated ... or they could simply flee like the Sons of Malice did, thus confirming any suspicions regarding their affiliation.
Lynata wrote: You seem to have missed that part where it says that in addition to this dozen there are some more who have been excommunicated but are "still at large".
These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.
Yeah, but so what? The point remains that the Inquisition can, has, and will annihilate Marine chapters as it sees fit.
The fact that it doesn't happen very often has no bearing on the matter.
1hadhq wrote:I'd say index astartes IV is clear they may not flinch but they seem to know that even they are not untouchable.
"Untouchable"? That really depends on how you define this term. The only person in the Imperium having any authority to order an arrest or execution on an Inquisitor would be ... yup, another Inquisitor.
Of course anyone could just kill them, but this means (a) getting to them first and (b) potential further consequences, depending on the Inquisitor in question.
Exactly. Like any authority throughout history, the individuals maintain their power by maintaining a monopoly on sanctioned violence. This is not to say that the individual maintains that monopoly. That would be impossible. The individual has limits, and can be killed.
But while an individual Inquisitor is vulnerable, his organisation is not. And since that organisation is comprised of individual Inquisitors who each want to live long and successful lives, not one of them will want to tolerate an attack on an Inquisitor. They don't want anyone to think that killing an Inquisitor is something that can be done without consequences, no matter who is doing the killing. Chapter masters, High Lords, no one is exempted. You kill an Inquisitor and the entire Inquisition, and by extension the entire Imperium, is going to come down on you like the fist of an angry god.
Because the individual Inquisitor is so vulnerable, he relies on the might of the rest of his organisation to support him. And the Inquisition, by way of requisitioning any asset it wants, is mighty indeed.
1hadhq wrote:These "more" aren't really significant numbers. Have a 1000 chapters around and lost in transit or lost in battle the major threat to a chapters existance. Then compare this to a dozen purged on a scale of 10.000 years.
"a thousand Chapters" lost would wipe out the Astartes as any meaningful force in the galaxy. They are already a far cry from being the pillar of the Imperium's existence they were during the Great Crusade - a role now taken over by the Imperial Guard - but this would pretty much finish them off.
I think i worded so absymally bad... 2nd try: 1000 chapters, losses replaced by a 25 foundings, so basically more than 1000 in total.
A dozen isn't much. Just 0,1 % of this.
Lynata wrote:Much like the cannibalistic practices that seem to be relatively common throughout the Astartes
Common how? Where?
Lynata wrote:Are you mixing the fluff with real world company policies again?
No. Relating content to intend.
A chaos release for example will see fluff written to support a move from loyal to traitor like this index astartes article was written specifically to tell us more. What we get, does not depend on any expectations of the fanbase.
Lynata wrote:The only person in the Imperium having any authority to order an arrest or execution on an Inquisitor would be ... yup, another Inquisitor.
Whenever the old man gets up from his golden toilet, he will not be happy with this ignorance towards him. A inquisitor who attempted to get uninvited into the throne room would be arrested or executed without anyone ordering it.
There are still orders of a level the =I= has no access to.
Kaldor wrote:
Yeah, but so what? The point remains that the Inquisition can, has, and will annihilate Marine chapters as it sees fit.
The fact that it doesn't happen very often has no bearing on the matter.
The fact that something as rare as this means its not common practice.
So yes, the point still is, the inquisition isn't watching the astartes all day long to find those 0,1% or less since they got enough on their hands with the traitor, the psyker and the xeno. And their record, if we look upon the latest treachery of badab, isn't so good.
Kaldor wrote:
... not one of them will want to tolerate an attack on an Inquisitor. They don't want anyone to think that killing an Inquisitor is something that can be done without consequences, no matter who is doing the killing. Chapter masters, High Lords, no one is exempted. You kill an Inquisitor and the entire Inquisition, and by extension the entire Imperium, is going to come down on you like the fist of an angry god.
Not really.
some inquisitors are behind the scenes, deep down under cover. They face opposition who does not care about the inquisition like xenos and demons. They face the ones who are so desparate to risk to kill the investigator to keep themselves secure.
The inquisiton is also not a monolithic block, so 'accidents' may happen.
Inquisitors have turned to chaos too.
Plenty of opposition that doesn't fear them or has to deal with one who is no longer loyal.
So it can be done without consequences. Because the rule of the IoM isn't unchallenged. And to come down on someone isn't happening if you don't know who it was. Its not believable that an Imperium can lose track of whole worlds but will never lose track of individuals.
Kaldor wrote:Yeah, but so what? The point remains that the Inquisition can, has, and will annihilate Marine chapters as it sees fit.
The fact that it doesn't happen very often has no bearing on the matter.
The fact that something as rare as this means its not common practice.
Well yes and no. Police shootings are a tiny, tiny fraction of the overall death rate, but if you resist arrest and give them a reason, they'll shoot you. It's not common practice to simply shoot people, but it happens. Same with Inquisitors and Astartes. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. The Inquisition has the authority, the ability, and they've done it before and can do it again.
Kaldor wrote:
... not one of them will want to tolerate an attack on an Inquisitor. They don't want anyone to think that killing an Inquisitor is something that can be done without consequences, no matter who is doing the killing. Chapter masters, High Lords, no one is exempted. You kill an Inquisitor and the entire Inquisition, and by extension the entire Imperium, is going to come down on you like the fist of an angry god.
Not really.
some inquisitors are behind the scenes, deep down under cover. They face opposition who does not care about the inquisition like xenos and demons. They face the ones who are so desparate to risk to kill the investigator to keep themselves secure.
The inquisiton is also not a monolithic block, so 'accidents' may happen.
Inquisitors have turned to chaos too.
Plenty of opposition that doesn't fear them or has to deal with one who is no longer loyal.
So it can be done without consequences. Because the rule of the IoM isn't unchallenged. And to come down on someone isn't happening if you don't know who it was. Its not believable that an Imperium can lose track of whole worlds but will never lose track of individuals.
Well, yes obviously in cases where the perpetrator is unknown, or the act covered up, or records are otherwise lost, or an operative is deep undercover then consequences can be avoided. But that's not a free pass to murder Inquisitors. The Inquisition maintains it's power by maintaining the safety of it's individuals, and it maintains the safety of it's individuals by the threat of overwhelming vengeance against those who would do them harm.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:How are Death Company heretics?
I suppose some people think they qualify as heretics/mutants. In the strictest sense, it's true, but the Blood Angels seem to have them well in hand so that things don't get out of control. Their reputation thus makes the Imperium just "look the other way" as long as this stability is maintained.
At least that was my impression.
Well mostly in check. But, that's if you count the Flesh Tearers as them as well. Which may be a bit of a stretch, though I'd still think founding legions would still maintain at least some control over their successor chapters.
Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes...but they can kill chapter's who are made to fill the gaps in the =I= story ...
DarthMarko wrote: Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes
I don't think that's a fact. I think it's like anything in life, the more important something is, the more attention people pay. So you have to really make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's. But if concrete evidence of deep-seated Heresy could be found within the ranks of the Ultramarines, or Dark Angels or any other second founding Chapter then that Chapter would face the same penalties as anyone else. And any other Chapters who, once confronted with that concrete evidence, still side with the Heretical Chapter are guilty by association.
I think that, even without that concrete evidence, most Chapters would abstain from a conflict. They know it would only end in escalation, and that they cannot match the escalation of the Inquisition who has at their beck and call the entire Imperial Guard, the Sisters of Battle, Titan Legions, the Navy, Officio Assassinorium, the Arbites, and every other Imperial organisation. Further, most Chapters would be smart enough to realise they don't have access to all the facts and that the people who do have access to all the facts (the Inquisition) have made the decision that this Chapter needs to be punished.
I think there would certainly be an amount of status granted by being a part of the second founding, but I think all that status would grant is transparency in the process. Other Chapter Masters would want to be convinced that the punishment was warranted, and the Inquisition would, if it wanted to avoid a conflict, be required to show their evidence.
DarthMarko wrote: Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes
I don't think that's a fact. I think it's like anything in life, the more important something is, the more attention people pay. So you have to really make sure you cross your t's and dot your i's. But if concrete evidence of deep-seated Heresy could be found within the ranks of the Ultramarines, or Dark Angels or any other second founding Chapter then that Chapter would face the same penalties as anyone else. And any other Chapters who, once confronted with that concrete evidence, still side with the Heretical Chapter are guilty by association.
I think that, even without that concrete evidence, most Chapters would abstain from a conflict. They know it would only end in escalation, and that they cannot match the escalation of the Inquisition who has at their beck and call the entire Imperial Guard, the Sisters of Battle, Titan Legions, the Navy, Officio Assassinorium, the Arbites, and every other Imperial organisation. Further, most Chapters would be smart enough to realise they don't have access to all the facts and that the people who do have access to all the facts (the Inquisition) have made the decision that this Chapter needs to be punished.
I think there would certainly be an amount of status granted by being a part of the second founding, but I think all that status would grant is transparency in the process. Other Chapter Masters would want to be convinced that the punishment was warranted, and the Inquisition would, if it wanted to avoid a conflict, be required to show their evidence.
Hi Kaldor! Last night I discussed why the =I= doesn't maul the Blood Ravens(half a legion + chapter master going bad)?Your opinion...
The Inquisition maintains it's power by maintaining the safety of it's individuals, and it maintains the safety of it's individuals by the threat of overwhelming vengeance against those who would do them harm.
they cannot match the escalation of the Inquisition who has at their beck and call the entire Imperial Guard, the Sisters of Battle, Titan Legions, the Navy, Officio Assassinorium, the Arbites, and every other Imperial organisation.
There is no overwhelming vengeance to be found in the background. So don't you think you are overestimating this "beck and call" ?
The IoM has a delicate balance of power. No one is going to ruin the show and live, not even the =I=.
PS: Its fascinating how we have no evidence of "it" and don't know what this "it" is but we are at page 4 yet....
What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?
Sort of a waste to kill it off entirely if there are small tumours to cut out instead.
1hadhq wrote:1000 chapters, losses replaced by a 25 foundings, so basically more than 1000 in total.
A dozen isn't much. Just 0,1 % of this.
12 of 1025 would be something around 1.2%, actually.
Going by this statistic, (very) roughly about one in a hundred Space Marines (not counting incomplete purges or unofficial death marks) gets killed by the Inquisition and the forces requisitioned to do the dirty work, mostly Adepta Sororitas Strike Forces. Sounds a lot more now, doesn't it?
1hadhq wrote:Common how? Where?
I don't know, that's what the fluff about the incident regarding the Sons of Malice said.
Supposedly, many Chapters tend to adopt such practices from the native population they recruit from. I've also seen something like this mentioned in the 2E SoB Codex ("practice crude acts of blood sacrifice") ... you sure it isn't mentioned somewhere in any of the Marine codices as well? I'd expect it to be so.
1hadhq wrote:No. Relating content to intend.
A chaos release for example will see fluff written to support a move from loyal to traitor like this index astartes article was written specifically to tell us more. What we get, does not depend on any expectations of the fanbase.
Just that things don't work this way. Unlike some novels which don't care much about what other authors wrote, GW books are not contradicting themselves left and right just because they focus on a different faction. They have a different focus and will showcase/highlight different incidents or legends, perhaps even exaggerate them, but it is a lot more rare that book A outright contradicts book B.
Also, Index Astartes wasn't an Inquisition release. The Armageddon campaign wasn't an Inquisition release.
1hadhq wrote:A inquisitor who attempted to get uninvited into the throne room would be arrested or executed without anyone ordering it.
There are still orders of a level the =I= has no access to.
And this is relevant to the topic how?
I think we all know that the Emperor is above the Inquisition. That is the one level in the hierarchy where this is true. They operate in His name, after all.
Supposedly, the Inquisition is also denied access to the Ecclesiarchy's Vault of Origins, though I have no idea how this works. I'd assume the Inquisition goes there anyways, it just doesn't ask but rather infiltrates to prevent the Ministorum from flipping out and throwing a hissy fit in the Senate.
1hadhq wrote:The fact that something as rare as this means its not common practice.
Chapters like the Flesh Tearers aren't exactly a common example, either.
As I've/we've been saying all along, there is a line to cross, and once you do not even the status of belonging to the Astartes will save your genetically enhanced hide. Nothing more, nothing less. And yes, this would logically apply to First Founding Chapters as well.
DarthMarko wrote:Fact - Inqusition can't kill first founding legion/chapter without a major support of adeptus astartes...
How is that a "fact"? Where did you read this?
1hadhq wrote:There is no overwhelming vengeance to be found in the background. So don't you think you are overestimating this "beck and call" ?
Again, see the Sons of Malice example.
One Inquisitor goes there and flips out as she sees the Marines eating human flesh. She condemns them as heretics (obviously an excessive move) and assembles a quick strike force to attack them.
The attack goes awry and the Inquisitor is killed. What does the Imperium do? Sends in the Guard and exterminates the entire native population left behind by the Chapter as it fled to escape Imperial retribution.
1hadhq wrote:The IoM has a delicate balance of power. No one is going to ruin the show and live, not even the =I=.
I'd say it works the other way around. "No one is going to ruin the show and live, not even the Space Marines".
Heretics and traitors are dealt with, and those that shelter them also. That's the theme.
1hadhq wrote:PS: Its fascinating how we have no evidence of "it" and don't know what this "it" is but we are at page 4 yet....
No evidence? I think we've seen enough.
n0t_u wrote:What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?
1hadhq wrote:1000 chapters, losses replaced by a 25 foundings, so basically more than 1000 in total.
A dozen isn't much. Just 0,1 % of this.
12 of 1025 would be something around 1.2%, actually.
Going by this statistic, (very) roughly about one in a hundred Space Marines (not counting incomplete purges or unofficial death marks) gets killed by the Inquisition and the forces requisitioned to do the dirty work, mostly Adepta Sororitas Strike Forces. Sounds a lot more now, doesn't it?
The foundings after the first one kept the size at a 1000 chapters. Dunno, did it look like i was posting 1000+25 ?
And yes, i know you love this idea of purging SM ...
Sure, you can try to make it sound "more" but who knows maybe 1% is better than almost every other group of indivuduals can claim.
you sure it isn't mentioned somewhere in any of the Marine codices as well? I'd expect it to be so.
Must be Ultramarines... *ducks*
Doubt there is a practice mentioned that is 'not cool' since the plan is to sell the army to the customer as non-chaos.
Also, Index Astartes wasn't an Inquisition release.
You see, I said CHAOS related article / release , so inquisition has no place in it beyond the fluff. And even then, there was no real success to be had as the aim of the game was to establish renegade / chaos marines , not to deny any chance to switch sides by an "all seeing" =I=.
Supposedly, the Inquisition is also denied access to the Ecclesiarchy's Vault of Origins, though I have no idea how this works. I'd assume the Inquisition goes there anyways, it just doesn't ask but rather infiltrates to prevent the Ministorum from flipping out and throwing a hissy fit in the Senate.
access denied isn't uncommon. Can't get everywhere on Mars too...
As I've/we've been saying all along, there is a line to cross, and once you do not even the status of belonging to the Astartes will save your genetically enhanced hide. Nothing more, nothing less. And yes, this would logically apply to First Founding Chapters as well.
Its still not the same line. They have their own.
IA is pretty specific on this... you pointed to it , now live with it.
Plus, we have a new starter set. With un-purged traitors. And Who's gonna stop them? the inquisition? or the real defenders of the IoM, the DA . Therefore those with a dark secret provide more dark vengeance than these shady creatures of the =I=.
n0t_u wrote:What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?
The two missing Legions?
The missing Legions have been replaced with new ones?
1hadhq wrote:The foundings after the first one kept the size at a 1000 chapters. Dunno, did it look like i was posting 1000+25 ?
Uhh, my bad. I took 25 foundings -> 25 new Chapters founded, but now it dawns to me that you meant the big founding events that sometimes saw more than one new Chapter created.
That being said, in this case you are missing that there weren't 1.000 Chapters created by the Second Founding. We only know that right now it's 1.000 Chapters.
I mean, if around the Horus Heresy there were 20 Legions, and about half of them went to Chaos, whereas the other half was "mostly divided into fewer than five Chapters each" (Index Astartes) ... you do the math. To me, it seems rather likely that the number of Chapters was increased over time rather than simply maintained to replace losses.
1hadhq wrote:And yes, i know you love this idea of purging SM ...
I'm merely providing a counter-balance to those fans who think SM are invincible.
1hadhq wrote:Doubt there is a practice mentioned that is 'not cool' since the plan is to sell the army to the customer as non-chaos.
"Cool" is in the eye of the beholder.
Isn't it still in GW's fluff that Space Marines can eat brains of slain enemies to gain their memories? I vaguely recall they had an app ... err, an organ for that.
1hadhq wrote:You see, I said CHAOS related article / release , so inquisition has no place in it beyond the fluff. And even then, there was no real success to be had as the aim of the game was to establish renegade / chaos marines , not to deny any chance to switch sides by an "all seeing" =I=.
I'm sorry, I still can't follow you. The fluff is the fluff, and nobody cares what release it belongs to.
Games Workshop promulgates one setting, and the Inquisition is a part of it.
What are we even talking about here if not the fluff? Why should we talk about Inquisition minis?
1hadhq wrote:Its still not the same line. They have their own.
Again: Nobody in here has disputed this. Stop getting so defensive about things that aren't even put into question.
1hadhq wrote:Plus, we have a new starter set. With un-purged traitors. And Who's gonna stop them? the inquisition? or the real defenders of the IoM, the DA . Therefore those with a dark secret provide more dark vengeance than these shady creatures of the =I=.
See, that's what I was referring to earlier about the taunting. Stuff like this doesn't help the discussion.
1hadhq wrote:The missing Legions have been replaced with new ones?
What? Where?
Legions got split up into Chapters, they were not replaced. Their records have been deleted after the Heresy, which (together with the fact that all the actual Traitor Legions got labeled Excommunicate Traitoris) kind of implies that someone wanted to eradicate a dirty piece of history from after the Emperor's Ascension to the Golden Throne.
Isn't it still in GW's fluff that Space Marines can eat brains of slain enemies to gain their memories? I vaguely recall they had an app ... err, an organ for that.
Ah.... now you are calling them zombies...
Could mention again the ones who did this in a BL publication. But not this time.
Because usually those who dare to confront the Adeptus Astartes should be considered not the brightest as they make that mistake, so who wants to taste such brains?
Or, to run with the background , every organ was created for a reason. Too bad GW just uses technobabbel like everyone so there won't be a sufficient explanation why they got this that will be accepted by you.
Their records have been deleted after the Heresy, which (together with the fact that all the actual Traitor Legions got labeled Excommunicate Traitoris) kind of implies that someone wanted to eradicate a dirty piece of history from after the Emperor's Ascension to the Golden Throne.
Its not after the ascension. The Legions gone 'missed' before the Siege and the one who erased their history is marked as 'unknown' at every single chart GW printed into codices. So how about evidence? How about a reliable source ?
1hadhq wrote:Ah.... now you are calling them zombies...
Could mention again the ones who did this in a BL publication. But not this time.
Because usually those who dare to confront the Adeptus Astartes should be considered not the brightest as they make that mistake, so who wants to taste such brains?
Phase 8 - Omophagea This is a complicated implant which really becomes part of the brain, but is actually situated within the spinal cord between the cervical and thoracic vertebrae. Four nerve sheaths called neuroclea are implanted between the spine and the preomnoral stomach wall. The omophagea is designed to absorb genetic material generated in animal tissue as a function of memory, experience or innate ability. This endows the Marine with an unusual survival trait: He can actually learn by eating. If a Marine eats a part of a creature, he will absorb some of the memories of it. This can be very useful in an alien environment. Incidentally, it is the presence of this organ which has created the various flesh eating and blood drinking rituals for which many Chapters are known, as well as giving the names to Chapters such as the Blood Drinkers, Flesh Tearers, etc. -- Sources: Index Astartes I, 5E Space Marine Codex, etc ...
You know, there are times where I actually feel I know more about the Adeptus Astartes than most Space Marine fans, like when I once again remind people they're not 8+ feet tall.
But on the other hand I guess it's much more likely that we just specialise in different areas (I think the only two armies where I'd actually claim detailed insight would be the SoB and IG) and favour different sources (like me sticking solely to GW background whereas others may know stuff from countless novels). Most of what I picked up about the Astartes after I stopped collecting them was more or less by accident, be it because I actually wanted to read about something else, because I was curious about technical details, or because it was quite simply an interesting read.
1hadhq wrote:Too bad GW just uses technobabbel like everyone so there won't be a sufficient explanation why they got this that will be accepted by you.
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you are inferring here.
1hadhq wrote: Just a " counter balance ".... Thats too regular amongst vocal parts of certain allegiance.
Not as vocal as the more numerous parts of another certain allegiance.
1hadhq wrote:Its not after the ascension. The Legions gone 'missed' before the Siege and the one who erased their history is marked as 'unknown' at every single chart GW printed into codices. So how about evidence? How about a reliable source ?
There's only two sorts of people who can erase this sort of data from history - the Inquisition and (maybe) the High Lords. Take your pick.
Also, we don't actually know for sure whether or not these two Legions have gone missing before the Siege or after. Unless you want to delve into Black Library interpretations, of course.
Do you not think it suspicious that they have been completely removed from history rather than simply marked as "destroyed" or "excommunicated"?
You know, there are times where I actually feel I know more about the Adeptus Astartes than most Space Marine fans, like when I once again remind people they're not 8+ feet tall.
Didn't request this quote but nice to see.
OtoH we have a metric system, far superior to feet.... but thats most likely heresy, to ask for scale and consistency.
Lynata wrote: Not as vocal as the more numerous parts of another certain allegiance.
the commonly short posts of your " group" and its usual low post count should have told me. Must admit, considered a thread about the chosen allegiance and how vocal posters are once.
Lynata wrote: There's only two sorts of people who can erase this sort of data from history - the Inquisition and (maybe) the High Lords. Take your pick.
Also, we don't actually know for sure whether or not these two Legions have gone missing before the Siege or after. Unless you want to delve into Black Library interpretations, of course.
Do you not think it suspicious that they have been completely removed from history rather than simply marked as "destroyed" or "excommunicated"?
I take N3 thanks. the god emperor himself. The other two may excommunicate, he alone may remove completly.
Again, order of events does sink your boat.
- chart gathered after the heresy, based on incomplete material. ( official, multiple codices )
- currently, the story of the heresy is given to BL, and FW will chime in too. So basically ignoring both leads to 0 heresy era fluff available as GW is keeping it out of codices then and the BRB is vague enough to be nigh useless for such small details.
- accepting the HH series and the hints given, the Legions existed but ceased to exist before Dorn sent Legions to Isstvan.
- so in a worldwide sold series, the Emperor himself requested an oath of his sons to never speak of these 2 again.
- without this series, there is no date given, so your assumption of who did it has no basis and contradicts publications created to shed a light on this era.
- its up to you to stand on that box and shake your fist towards GW for their decisions. But there are too many who have fun with this, so secluding yourself will not alter the path.
1hadhq wrote:OtoH we have a metric system, far superior to feet.... but thats most likely heresy, to ask for scale and consistency.
Naturally, I like metres more, too. It's a bit*h converting stuff back and forth again, but that's what we have google for.
It's a British game, so we can only adapt.
1hadhq wrote: the commonly short posts of your " group" and its usual low post count should have told me. Must admit, considered a thread about the chosen allegiance and how vocal posters are once.
Huh? I'm sorry, care to elaborate?
1hadhq wrote:I take N3 thanks. the god emperor himself. The other two may excommunicate, he alone may remove completly.
Given that the Emperor wasn't around Post-Heresy, he could have hardly ordered these records deleted. Well, unless you think he actually still gives orders rather than just vegetating on the Golden Throne and keeping the Astronomican alight.
1hadhq wrote:currently, the story of the heresy is given to BL, and FW will chime in too. So basically ignoring both leads to 0 heresy era fluff available as GW is keeping it out of codices then and the BRB is vague enough to be nigh useless for such small details.
That's just not true. The rulebooks and codices may not go into as much detail as your conflicting novels, but there's quite a bit of fluff to be found.
1hadhq wrote:without this series, there is no date given, so your assumption of who did it has no basis and contradicts publications created to shed a light on this era.
"The names and histories of Chapters 2 and 11 were deleted from Imperial records following the Horus Heresy." - Codex Imperialis
Granted, this choice of words could also mean that the deletion was somehow linked to the Heresy, even when it occurred after it, and when it still throws up the question as to what made these two Legions so special. I suppose it is quite intentional that things are kept as vague as they are, given that GW obviously wishes to leave some things relatively open for players to fill with their own ideas. In this, I fear the two Legions are a dead end and thus not qualify as a good example after all. They could be, but that theory is just as much dependent on individual interpretation as the opposite, and as such not worth debating.
Lynata wrote: Well, unless you think he actually still gives orders rather than just vegetating on the Golden Throne and keeping the Astronomican alight.
OH oh. Lost your faith? Maybe he stopped talking, but there are other ways to communicate.
Lynata wrote: The rulebooks and codices may not go into as much detail as your conflicting novels, but there's quite a bit of fluff to be found.
Is that so? Consider a new recrut to the hobby. Surely the BRB and a codex are a start?
But then , the heresy era has not much detail there and usually codices focus at 1 Legion so until this is a chaos dex , there is fluff about
5 Legions in 5 codices. Isn't something missing? Maybe fluff for 4 Legions and the 2 lost ones?
I think there is a common mistake made , that everyone has access to everything published ever and /or is in a hobby since the wheel was invented. The modern age helps , internet ressources and all that.
In this case however, its just not fair to the new recrut to ignore half of the recent releases and throw ancient fluff around just because it was valid once ( pre bronze age that is ). There is a title and there is a sticky. Both do not recommend to ignore certain products of GW.
So IMHO, restrictions of the usable sources are only ok if limits are set in the OP. Not somewhere in the thread by a few, who have no Admin or modquisition powers. However I will respect the choices of any Dakkanaut for personal use of fluff.
Maybe I am just to interested and curious to refrain from reading whatever is posted. Maybe its too entertaining to refrain from in-universe comments. But I am not going to drive this further off of the subject.
Thus end of story:
- there is nothing that wasn't known since 10000 years.
- the gene-seed is tested by the mechanicum as agreed upon after the heresy
- the loyalitiy is without doubt
- their theme is one of resisting and ending their service in battle
- collateral damage is acceptable in the IoM > no reason to get away, no matter what this "it" may be.
Take it or leave it , doubt there is more than 'buisness decisions' and 'plot armor' left beyond that.
1hadhq wrote:OH oh. Lost your faith? Maybe he stopped talking, but there are other ways to communicate.
Unlike some, I take an almost sadistic pleasure in knowing how rotten the IoM is. I'm embracing the Grimdark. And no, I don't buy into the whole "the High Lords are interpreting the Emperor's will" BS. They do what they want and I think you know it.
Or do you really believe that everything is going according to plan? I mean, that would be one valid interpretation, too. I'd just find it somewhat ironic, given that this would mean that the High Lords' words truly are the Emperor's will, to be followed by the Space Marines as if He Himself would've given the word.
1hadhq wrote:I think there is a common mistake made , that everyone has access to everything published ever and /or is in a hobby since the wheel was invented. The modern age helps , internet ressources and all that.
In this case however, its just not fair to the new recrut to ignore half of the recent releases and throw ancient fluff around just because it was valid once ( pre bronze age that is ).
Why is it not fair to point to older studio material (whose validity, let's face it, is put into question solely by yourself and not GW), but totally okay to point them to a bunch of novels? I could understand if you'd limit your criticism to the availability of fluff, but here you are simply attempting to replace one source with another that is just as "hard" to get.
1hadhq wrote:There is a title and there is a sticky. Both do not recommend to ignore certain products of GW.
You mean in this forum? I actually think the sticky should point out that - as per these novels' very own authors - these books are different interpretation than the codices. Parallel worlds. Maybe you get one that's a perfect mirror and fits nicely to what GW tells us. Or maybe you get one where Space Marines carry multilasers, Battle Sisters flirt with Commissars, and lobotomised Navigator-Servitors steer spaceships with contradicting crew numbers through the Warp. *shrug*
All I'm saying is that discussions of fluff require a common ground, and when I have to decide between GW books or novels, it's not hard for me to pick. You can continue preferring the alternative, as long as you can deal with future codices disregarding what individual freelance writers make up. Like you, I respect (well, try to respect) such a choice - at least now that I'm aware that all fluff is equally valid. But I can't help but point out the drawbacks of such a policy when it comes to actually talking about things.
1hadhq wrote:- there is nothing that wasn't known since 10000 years.
- the gene-seed is tested by the mechanicum as agreed upon after the heresy
- the loyalitiy is without doubt
- their theme is one of resisting and ending their service in battle
- collateral damage is acceptable in the IoM - no reason to get away, no matter what this "it" may be.
Take it or leave it , doubt there is more than 'buisness decisions' and 'plot armor' left beyond that.
That's referring to the Blood Angels or the Flesh Tearers?
I've made my opinions clear concerning both, though I should probably reiterate that yes, even for the BA it would depend on what "it" is. For "it" may very well raise these as-of-yet nonexistent doubts about their loyalty, and even with collateral damage it greatly depends on who is involved. It's not only the Space Marines who have political clout, you know. You seem to continue to demand some sort of untouchability for one side whilst completely disregarding the other.
The only thing to keep in mind is that all the "it's" that have actually happened so far are indeed of no consequence.
Business decisions and plot armour should be left out of fluff debates, though, for reasons of consistency.
Why is it not fair to point to older studio material (whose validity, let's face it, is put into question solely by yourself and not GW), but totally okay to point them to a bunch of novels? I could understand if you'd limit your criticism to the availability of fluff, but here you are simply attempting to replace one source with another that is just as "hard" to get.
Counter question:
Why would a actual line of products have no place in 40k background whilst out of print ( or deleted from their website ) products should
count as valid source?
So availability is part of what I am trying to say. The background moves on, it doesn't integrate all that has been before and it may just put things on a , as I will call it: reserve pile. It is not lost, just unused. This also has the effect that a change can happen without replacing the former background per 'official decree'.
So a certain actual setup created from old and new is there, just look at the effort put into linking the background of rulebooks, codices and expansions. This leads to a setting that has less issues when we accept that the image they sell is based on their current line of products.
But there are also changes in the design team, the take on the 40k verse may have a general course but i doubt it is set in stone and the "replacements" may influence the compatibility of the background.
So yes, I tend to stick with the most recent imagination to keep it close to what is known by as many actually active Hobbyists as possible.
- For "it" may very well raise these as-of-yet nonexistent doubts about their loyalty,
- with collateral damage it greatly depends on who is involved.
I see you agree that:
- we didn't get a definition of "it" from the OP.
- there is no doubt about their loyality in a period from the time of the Legions to M42.
But you think the victim of the collateral damage would matter, to which my reply is: did you see the common saying in those rulebooks about how much one will be missed? Sure you have specific victims in mind, but even then 'blue vs blue' accidents may happen in 40k. Generally imperials have a pretty good f/f identify system in place it seems. So IMO it had to be intended not-so-collateral damage to make this count against them.
You seem to continue to demand some sort of untouchability for one side whilst completely disregarding the other.
'untouchability' sounds interesting...
or to make this a useful response, there is no 100% immunity if you are not the God-Emperor himself. Still, this all depends who is your opponent as any 'untouchability' only applies when we think of loyal subjects of the imperium.
1hadhq wrote:Counter question: Why would a actual line of products have no place in 40k background whilst out of print ( or deleted from their website ) products should count as valid source? So availability is part of what I am trying to say.
You prefer availability, I prefer consistency.
1hadhq wrote:The background moves on, it doesn't integrate all that has been before and it may just put things on a , as I will call it: reserve pile. It is not lost, just unused. This also has the effect that a change can happen without replacing the former background per 'official decree'.
Define "the background". Even as per the various authors who write those novels that you hold dear, there is no singular version of the setting but numerous different interpretations. Even GW's own books are very open to interpretation (ironically, this makes them less prone to deviating from licensed material as they often omit details that various novels then present conflicting accounts of), but at the end of the day Gav Thorpe made it clear that the company is "cherrypicking" what stuff from the Black Library they actually want to fit into the studio vision (and which subsequently gets printed in GW books as well), and what to dismiss.
So, yes, the background moves on and it indeed does not integrate all that has been before. Contrary to your interpretation of this condition, however, it seems to me that it is largely Black Library novels and other licensed products that get ignored. On the other hand, even the oldest GW fluff gets reprinted from time to time. How often do we see people actually complaining about straight copypasta from older codices? Speaking of which, here's an interesting fact: The designer's notes for the WH Codex, an article which appeared in the White Dwarf, outright stated that the writers went back even up to the 1st edition Rogue Trader fluff to craft an image of the Ecclesiarchy and its forces that was consistent for over 15 years, including a reference to that image of "Sister Sin" shooting "Brother Vermillion".
1hadhq wrote:But there are also changes in the design team, the take on the 40k verse may have a general course but i doubt it is set in stone and the "replacements" may influence the compatibility of the background. So yes, I tend to stick with the most recent imagination to keep it close to what is known by as many actually active Hobbyists as possible.
It's true, small changes happen - see the Grey Knights or the Necrons for the most recent examples. I still don't see why you'd think that the imagination of countless individual novel writers should necessarily line up with the imagination of the team at GW? Do you see this happening here on the forums?
In the end, you'll still end up with a separate interpretation, a different pair of goggles to witness the world with.
I guess this is something we can only agree to disagree on, though. There is no "right" or "wrong" with this question, just priorities and perception.
1hadhq wrote:I see you agree that:
- we didn't get a definition of "it" from the OP.
- there is no doubt about their loyality in a period from the time of the Legions to M42.
Agreed on the latter. For the former, I simply assumed that OP was referring to the Blood Angels' geneseed corruption and its effects on their Battle Brothers. In which case I already said I don't agree that their situation requires outside intervention. My last comment on this was merely borne out of you seemingly ruling out any consequence "regardless of what 'it' is". Basically: if "it" will change in M42, their situation would have to be re-evaluated.
We both know that this will never happen due to timeline constraints, but in the spirit of the fluff, it should still be mentioned.
1hadhq wrote:But you think the victim of the collateral damage would matter, to which my reply is: did you see the common saying in those rulebooks about how much one will be missed? Sure you have specific victims in mind, but even then 'blue vs blue' accidents may happen in 40k. Generally imperials have a pretty good f/f identify system in place it seems. So IMO it had to be intended not-so-collateral damage to make this count against them.
Yes, "blue vs blue" happens all the time, involving nearly all of the Imperial Adepta. Still, some people are worth more than others, and this does not apply solely to Space Marines. The difficult thing is just that, compared to an Astartes Chapter's history and reputation, an Inquisitor's influence and allies as well as his rivals are largely concealed in the shadows, making it harder to assess how much weight his words would have. I could very well imagine that some Inquisitors would resort to sabotaging another's investigation just to discredit them within the organisation, and possibly see them accused themselves. At least this is how I imagine the Inquisition to work - their internal control mechanisms often being abused for petty squabbles on the lower levels, which may at times lead to the loss of millions of Guardsmen, or an entire Chapter of Astartes, fallen victim to political rivalries without even knowing it.
Such is life in the Imperium of Man. Grimdark.
Hey, apart from what sources we go by, we actually agree on stuff now!
n0t_u wrote:What's to say it hasn't happened in the past, been cleaned up and then hidden in order to keep the flawless appearance the founding chapter had managed to build itself over the years?
The two missing Legions?
Meant more as in heresy within chapters such as the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, etc.
They can't be as immune as the GK; perhaps they are as close as the SoB which would make sense somewhat. But, they do have pride in their history so I don't doubt if some were to fall within they'd have the issue dealt with and then possibly hidden.
n0t_u wrote:Meant more as in heresy within chapters such as the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, etc. They can't be as immune as the GK; perhaps they are as close as the SoB which would make sense somewhat. But, they do have pride in their history so I don't doubt if some were to fall within they'd have the issue dealt with and then possibly hidden.
Oh, you mean individuals or small groups? Yeah, of course that happens. Off the top of my head, I recall a bunch of Space Wolves who signed up with Huron Blackheart after killing their own brethren. About half of the original First Founding Legions turned to Chaos, it'd be naive to assume the rest would be immune to its temptations.
This wouldn't fall back on the entire Chapter, though, unless it'd become somewhat common and thus hint at something not being right. I could see the Inquisition helping out with keeping individual renegades a secret from the public, but given that all of this would not taint the Chapter as a whole it's not really relevant for the debate at hand. Now that you mention it, though, none of the First Founding Chapters have ever been sent on a punitive crusade, have they? That we know of, anyways.
And I wouldn't compare them to the SoB in this regard. The Adepta Sororitas practice a notably more altruistic lifestyle, embracing humility and sacrifice over honour and pride - not to mention that they are indoctrinated from infancy whereas Space Marines still have a "normal" childhood, often in feral conditions, which may slowly seep into a Chapter's own culture. The Sisters being way more resilient to Chaos is one of their major and oft-repeated themes, and pretty much their narrative "trade-off" for lacking the Astartes' genetic enhancements.
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they."
Mainly because to purge the blood angels would be a massive waste of resources and ~half the space marines on the galaxy would want to put your nuts in a vice
n0t_u wrote:Meant more as in heresy within chapters such as the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, etc. They can't be as immune as the GK; perhaps they are as close as the SoB which would make sense somewhat. But, they do have pride in their history so I don't doubt if some were to fall within they'd have the issue dealt with and then possibly hidden.
Oh, you mean individuals or small groups? Yeah, of course that happens. Off the top of my head, I recall a bunch of Space Wolves who signed up with Huron Blackheart after killing their own brethren. About half of the original First Founding Legions turned to Chaos, it'd be naive to assume the rest would be immune to its temptations.
This wouldn't fall back on the entire Chapter, though, unless it'd become somewhat common and thus hint at something not being right. I could see the Inquisition helping out with keeping individual renegades a secret from the public, but given that all of this would not taint the Chapter as a whole it's not really relevant for the debate at hand. Now that you mention it, though, none of the First Founding Chapters have ever been sent on a punitive crusade, have they? That we know of, anyways.
And I wouldn't compare them to the SoB in this regard. The Adepta Sororitas practice a notably more altruistic lifestyle, embracing humility and sacrifice over honour and pride - not to mention that they are indoctrinated from infancy whereas Space Marines still have a "normal" childhood, often in feral conditions, which may slowly seep into a Chapter's own culture. The Sisters being way more resilient to Chaos is one of their major and oft-repeated themes, and pretty much their narrative "trade-off" for lacking the Astartes' genetic enhancements.
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they."
Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...
And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...
DarthMarko wrote:Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...
They bear the Mark of Chaos on their armour, that makes them CSMs in my book.
DarthMarko wrote:And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...
Are you trying to taunt me?
Unlike some people, I fully embrace the greyness and imperfection of the factions in this Grimdark setting and don't try to see my favoured army as some infallible almighty entity that is able to claim moral or martial superiority in all things. It's much more fun this way, at least for me.
DarthMarko wrote:Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...
They bear the Mark of Chaos on their armour, that makes them CSMs in my book.
DarthMarko wrote:And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...
Are you trying to taunt me?
Unlike some people, I fully embrace the greyness and imperfection of the factions in this Grimdark setting and don't try to see my favoured army as some infallible almighty entity that is able to claim moral or martial superiority in all things. It's much more fun this way, at least for me.
Well ,maybe not, but you still use =I= point of view, and defend them like they are ultimate IoM weapon - which they are not, and will always be beneath mighty adeptus astartes...
First thing I would do in IoM is crush\burn the fanatics,leave the =I= how it was in the begining(real secret) and bring back SM to preech IT ....now tell me - would world then be a better place?
DarthMarko wrote:Well ,maybe not, but you still use =I= point of view, and defend them like they are ultimate IoM weapon
No. I use the "=I= point of view" because that is how the Imperium operates. Because that is the perspective through which top-decisions must be seen to be understood. Because that is quite simply how the setting works.
DarthMarko wrote:First thing I would do in IoM is crush\burn the fanatics,leave the =I= how it was in the begining(real secret) and bring back SM to preech IT ....now tell me - would world then be a better place?
Yes. But why on Earth would I want 40k to be less grimdark? And this novel-spawned "Imperial Truth" has no effect on Chaos; we've already had that discussion before.
Also, the "ultimate weapon" would be the Imperial Guard, the Hammer of the Emperor. Scalpels are undoubtedly useful, but if the IoM would have to choose between the two ... it could do without the Space Marines, but it could not do without the billions of Guardsmen tasked with holding front lines which stretch across entire star systems.
DarthMarko wrote:Well ,maybe not, but you still use =I= point of view, and defend them like they are ultimate IoM weapon
No. I use the "=I= point of view" because that is how the Imperium operates. Because that is the perspective through which top-decisions must be seen to be understood. Because that is quite simply how the setting works.
DarthMarko wrote:First thing I would do in IoM is crush\burn the fanatics,leave the =I= how it was in the begining(real secret) and bring back SM to preech IT ....now tell me - would world then be a better place?
Yes. But why on Earth would I want 40k to be less grimdark? And this novel-spawned "Imperial Truth" has no effect on Chaos; we've already had that discussion before.
Also, the "ultimate weapon" would be the Imperial Guard, the Hammer of the Emperor. Scalpels are undoubtedly useful, but if the IoM would have to choose between the two ... it could do without the Space Marines, but it could not do without the billions of Guardsmen tasked with holding front lines which stretch across entire star systems.
You mean they could do without SoB and the semi autonomus human Inqusitors and so called Cardinals, but no way without AA...IoM would would be like a headless chicken
I really don't like how people keep saying this as it's ignoring the simple and obvious fact that the Custodes, probably the ONLY faction that knows and sticks to the Emperor's plans and his will, both attempted to peacefully resolve the Age of Apostasy by leaving several of their own members as hostages with the Brides of the Emperor and then publically spoke up in support of them to the rest of the High Lords, knowing full well what kind of political pull they have.
If the Emperor was going to have them all burned then the Custodes would have done so long ago or even simply ignored them during the AoA and let the rest of the Imperium do it for them.
I really don't like how people keep saying this as it's ignoring the simple and obvious fact that the Custodes, probably the ONLY faction that knows and sticks to the Emperor's plans and his will, both attempted to peacefully resolve the Age of Apostasy by leaving several of their own members as hostages with the Brides of the Emperor and then publically spoke up in support of them to the rest of the High Lords, knowing full well what kind of political pull they have.
If the Emperor was going to have them all burned then the Custodes would have done so long ago or even simply ignored them during the AoA and let the rest of the Imperium do it for them.
That doesn't change the fact that in time of great crusade when Emp walked they would have been mauled without a flinch...and again I said Emp - not Custodes
DarthMarko wrote: That doesn't change the fact that in time of great crusade when Emp walked they would have been mauled without a flinch...and again I said Emp - not Custodes
30,000 years is a long time ago and you are basing it all off how he was 10,000 years prior to current.
And besides, that outlook was simply to keep everyone in the dark about Chaos.
We saw how well that worked out.
As it stands, the Custodes are the only faction around to offer any insight into the Emperors current wants and wills, and they fully support the Sisterhood as an establishment. force and faction.
And you know, Alicia and her officers of the-then Brides of the Emperor have stood before the Golden Throne and something actually happened in there as their hair was snow-white as they left and they had each seen a vision of where they should direct their future. I'm certain that counts as 'supporting' them also.
Ergo, Emperor supports the Sisters.
Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...
And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...
Hmm, let's see. Total number of Sisters of Battle that has willingly joined Chaos: 1. Total number of Space Wolves or Space Wolf descendants that have joined Chaos: >1.
As for the bolded part: Grey Knights. Enough with the "Space Wolves are the bestest!" already, we get it, you like Space Wolves. Just stop spouting unsubstantiated hyperbole about how good they are.
Again and again and again, Wolf brothers were gene tempered instable sucessor Chapter - not the original Sons of Russ (who can't be corrupted IMHO,yeah that's right I've said that ),and they went renagade, not C-style...
And closer you are to fanaticism,like SoB - you are closer to chaos(one way or another)....Like Tadashi said, if you ignore and rationalize C-gods and existance of any GOD you are on the good path - SoB,Cardinals and rest of them are not...
P.S.If the Emp was alive he would burn them...
Hmm, let's see. Total number of Sisters of Battle that has willingly joined Chaos: 1. Total number of Space Wolves or Space Wolf descendants that have joined Chaos: >1.
As for the bolded part: Grey Knights. Enough with the "Space Wolves are the bestest!" already, we get it, you like Space Wolves. Just stop spouting unsubstantiated hyperbole about how good they are.
I'm comparing preheresy adeptus astartes and the Emperor with corrupt system which is now....I'm not bringing wolves into the discussion (althou they did hammer the worms once or twice)...
Now if you want to say something speak how much their extreme mesures of repression and fanatism are bringing favor from C-gods...
DarthMarko wrote:You mean they could do without SoB and the semi autonomus human Inqusitors and so called Cardinals, but no way without AA...IoM would would be like a headless chicken
Uhm, no?
The Imperium could do without the Adepta Sororitas as well as without the Adeptus Astartes. Neither is a military force that is of critical importance. They're both nice to have as they can change the course of a battle, but they are too few to come remotely close to the necessity of the Imperial Guard and the Navy.
Inquisitors and Cardinals are necessary for maintaining politial stability. Maybe the Imperium could do without Inquisitors (by installing alternate safeguards like granting the Arbites more power) - but regarding the Cardinals, to me it seems obvious that humanity in this setting is too dependent on belief in a higher power. The Imperial Creed unites the people and aids them in overcoming incredible odds by boosting their morale.
I suppose if people wouldn't grow up believing the Emperor is a god, they might be much more susceptible to the lure of the Dark Powers. After all, with whom would you rather throw in your lot ... the mere human High Lords on faraway Terra who have no idea your planet even exists, or the Chaos Gods whose cultist emissaries may offer you "true power" right here and right now? Just believing that the Emperor is much more than a vegetable shackled to the Golden Throne, and that he actually cares about your fate and may extend his hand in a divine interpretation to help you adds a lot of stability to people's lives, no matter the truth. And that's even before you factor in the effect of people fearing what would happen to them (or their "immortal souls") if they disappoint Him-on-Earth.
Someone is bad, very bad. The risk of "someone"... * switches into 
should start a thread about the correct faith... 
Right now, its the 1st of September the new dawn of 
no 
And Who's gonna stop them? the inquisition? or the real defenders of the 
group" 
god emperor himself. The other two may excommunicate, he alone may remove completly.
