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Post by: Frakhead
So you guys know that I am looking for some models 'juves' to count as Rattlings, this has got me some ribbing from some people I know.
Now I have seen Nazi Orks, and know of one occasion when a passer by complained about someone's Tallarn army, saying it was racist.
So the question is: How far can one go before the invisible line is crossed?
This whole game is based around a Grim Dark future, the bloodiest regimes imaginable. Remember that Innocence Proves Nothing, and in fact does not exist as everyone is guilty of something... which is kind of true IRL... and gives the background some much captivating depth.
So what's your take?
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Post by: Horst
The line is the more extremist slaaneshi armies. I've heard of armies fielding sex toys with legs as defilers... while funny, its not really appropriate.
Nazi orks, Nazi guard, whatever. Just don't do it for shock value, it has to be well done. You can't just slap some nazi symbols or dildos on an army and call it a day.
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Post by: Ascalam
The line , being invisible, is redrawn by each person 
I have some juvie orks as gun crew (old Rt/2nd ed ones that are tiny) as well as grots (some are child-like, if green) and no-one complains.
Humans will be a bit more provoking to some, but it's going to vary.
As long as your models looks to be at least teenager, i don't see a proble, though infants/kids with guns might be a touch over the line
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Post by: Agent_Tremolo
Remember Necromunda: Some gang fighters were clearly modeled as kids in their mid-late teens.
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Post by: Purifier
What's the worst a person can think about you when you model your army with X?
Are you ok with them thinking that of you?
Do you care about the opinions of those that would think that?
Ask yourself these, and you'll know how far you can go. It's fine and well to say you only care about what you think, but that's not the reality of society. We care about what others think. But not what ALL others think. I, for example, do not care if people think I'm a pervert for having a model with a tit hanging out, because the people that would think like that are not people I am interested in having in my circle of friends. I do, however, care if my friends think I'm MFA, so I do not model in a way that gives me any kind of advantage.
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Post by: Peregrine
The line, IMO, is drawn where you bring offensive real-world elements into the army. The nazi army is offensive (outside of historical WWII games) because it's a reminder of a horrible war that many people still suffer the effects of. For example, if your grandparents were murdered by the nazis do you really want to play against someone who thinks it's just a cool color scheme? Or worse, that the shock value is funny?
And no, the fluff doesn't have the same effect, because nobody real was killed by the Imperium/tortured by DE/whatever. There's a line separating fiction and reality, and it's important to keep it there.
 Horst wrote:The line is the more extremist slaaneshi armies. I've heard of armies fielding sex toys with legs as defilers... while funny, its not really appropriate.
Why not? Why is this any worse than the vast amounts of fluff (and models) depicting brutal torture, genocide, and an endless variety of horrible individual deaths?
Though, TBH, I'd probably object to the army because the models were poor quality (I imagine this wasn't an awesome conversion), just like I'd object to an IG army that used a bunch of $5 plastic toys as its tanks and a bag of green army men for its troops.
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Post by: AndrewChristlieb
Horst wrote:The line is the more extremist slaaneshi armies. I've heard of armies fielding sex toys with legs as defilers... while funny, its not really appropriate.
Nazi orks, Nazi guard, whatever. Just don't do it for shock value, it has to be well done. You can't just slap some nazi symbols or dildos on an army and call it a day.
There would have to be a good conversion for me to accept this, if you wanted to have phallus like power maces for instance id be all for it, but just putting legs on a toy does not fly imo.
*of course keep this to the adult players! I dont want my daughter coming up to play and seeing this!!
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Post by: Purifier
 Peregrine wrote:And no, the fluff doesn't have the same effect, because nobody real was killed by the Imperium/tortured by DE/whatever. There's a line separating fiction and reality, and it's important to keep it there.
Really? And where is that line?
People, right now, are in wars, being shot at. Being tortured. And here we sit, playing at war, with little weapons. Guns and swords. The most easily identifiable images of war and suffering there could ever be. There are models with torturing tongs. Something that people living right now has seen and experienced at the receiving end. I can't even begin to imagine how horrible that must be. But you draw the line at nazi symbols, not the symbols of war and death for thousands of years?
Think on it.
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Post by: Ailaros
Peregrine wrote:The line, IMO, is drawn where you bring offensive real-world elements into the army.
I agree. I would also include bringing in elements from non- 40k worlds as well. Nazi orks and brony space marines and chibi daemons are all roughly equally appalling in my mind.
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Post by: Decio
^ Nazis are more specific than guns, swords, nooses, and such.
For instance, Nazis were terrible and playing against Nazi orks when you have the dead grandparents as mentioned as an example, but I'm sure my own relatives were shot at and injured and such, but guns are everywhere. I don't want to say that I don't want to play against an army that has guns because I feel that it is too raw and emotional or something. Why would you even say that guns and swords were the line when that is what 40k uses most?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops, meant to point up at Purifier's post, not your Ailaros
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Post by: Purifier
 Decio wrote: Why would you even say that guns and swords were the line when that is what 40k uses most?
Because that was exactly my point. I find it ridiculous to be fine with playing at war, but all of a sudden be abhorrent to nazis, as if nazis are the only evil in the world.
We're already knee deep in evil, and then you find one turd flowing in the river of the swear filter is here for a reason, please don't bypass it.Reds8n and you get offended by it.
I think it's a cruddy choice for army because it doesn't suit the fluff, but I think people that feel violated by it should really look at themselves and what it is they are saying.
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Post by: Decio
^ Ah, misunderstood your point. Sorry. Though I think the line is, as mentioned in other posts, more of a personal preference thing. You'd still have to be passionate to not play against Nazi Orks though. Just try to pound them with righteousness if you don't like Nazis.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
^ Ah, misunderstood your point. Sorry. Though I think the line is, as mentioned in other posts, more of a personal preference thing. You'd still have to be passionate to not play against Nazi Orks though. Just try to pound them with righteousness if you don't like Nazis.
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Post by: kronk
I love to see a well painted army.
But, I would rather see a crapishly painted Cadian army than a Golden Deamon award winning Space Marine army painted like Space Nazis.
In fact, I'd refuse to play such an army because of a number of assumptions and beliefs I'd have about the player/painter.
Edit: If we're playing an historical WWII game, that's fine naturally.
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Post by: Baronyu
It is a game, yes, you're right, but you're playing against actual people, what do you gain for upsetting someone? Isn't the point of WH40k to actually play with your army? If you want to show just how cool and rebellious that you are, how you do not need to follow society's rules because you're just so cool, you could do that for free by running around the street nazi saluting people or whacking people across the face with a dildo like some sorta RL saints row, why bring it to a tabletop game? Do you honestly think someone will go "Holy batman, look at this brave young man, proudly showing his fearlessness toward society's standard, how he cared not about what others think! He is truly a beacon of hope in this time of darkness!!"?
The line is different for everyone, but just apply common sense, even a cave dweller, such as myself, can tell what the common things people get offended about are: nazi, extreme adult themed(ie dildo with legs posted above), etc... I make a lot of sexist, racist and generally offensive jokes around my friends, but I'd never do it in front of people I barely know, because I have the common decency to not offend someone if I can help it. There is a place and time for your dildo and nazi salutes, and public is definitely not one of those.
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Post by: Testify
Common sense dude. If you don't see why putting swastikas on space marines is inappropriate, you have problems.
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Post by: Polonius
Part of being morally developed person is knowing what is appropriate for any given situation.
Society has rules, but every adolescent knows that the rules are not correct 100% of the time. Morally, one becomes an adult when you have the judgment to know when and where to break the rules.
that is why threads like these get bogged down by endless "why is X ok, when it's clearly no better than Y, which is not ok" type comments. A lot of people, well meaning I'm sure, simply don't have the moral judgment to understand the subtleties.
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Post by: Peregrine
 Purifier wrote:Really? And where is that line?
People, right now, are in wars, being shot at. Being tortured. And here we sit, playing at war, with little weapons. Guns and swords. The most easily identifiable images of war and suffering there could ever be. There are models with torturing tongs. Something that people living right now has seen and experienced at the receiving end. I can't even begin to imagine how horrible that must be. But you draw the line at nazi symbols, not the symbols of war and death for thousands of years?
Think on it.
Why is it so hard to understand the line between fantasy and reality? Yes, there are guns and swords in real life, but a space marine with a magic sword has no connection to a specific act of real violence with a sword. Think of it like a horror movie: you watch it, bad things happen, but in the end you know it's entirely fiction and there's no reason to bring real life events into it. The nazi orks, on the other hand, narrow it down to a specific real-world event and make it impossible to ignore the real-life impact of that event. That might not be a problem if you have plenty of emotional distance from WWII, but there are still a lot of people who don't.
Also there's a huge difference in that nazi images are a political symbol, of a very specific ideology. A gun, on the other hand, is politically neutral. Or compare it to Steel Legion IG, which draw a lot of design inspiration from the WWII German army. The difference is the Steel Legion troops just take the hardware, and can be considered just another historical army in space. Nazi orks, by including that political symbol, specifically refer to the ideology of stuff like racism, industrialized genocide, etc. It's the difference between equipping your real-world army with surplus WWII German equipment and putting a nazi symbol on your uniforms.
Finally, don't forget that, unlike historical games, there is no fluff that includes nazi symbols (or any other real-world ideology), so there's no excuse that you're "just making it authentic". That means that anyone who makes an army like the nazi orks either:
1) Approves of the nazi ideology and wants to proudly represent it in their army.
or
2) Thinks that it's funny to shock people with it.
Group #1 are obviously disgusting people who should be kicked out of the hobby, while group #2 are just  s who don't care who they offend as long as it's "funny". And I don't know about you, but I don't want to play against s or approve of their immature behavior.
 Ailaros wrote:Peregrine wrote:The line, IMO, is drawn where you bring offensive real-world elements into the army.
I agree. I would also include bringing in elements from non- 40k worlds as well. Nazi orks and brony space marines and chibi daemons are all roughly equally appalling in my mind.
I disagree. Brony space marines are silly and I'd certainly hate to have them become so common that half my games are against some variety of joke army, but they're not offensive. The nazi orks, on the other hand, are.
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Post by: kronk
They might not be offensive to you, but they certainly are to me.
Seriously. Leave your MLP fetish and Nazi Space Marines at home.
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Post by: DemetriDominov
I Loled at the Dildo defiler, I think that was an extremely creative way of modeling slaanesh.
Purifier has a point, it's why I've spent so much time writing fannon and not published it.
Your army makes a personal statement, as does your writing. Give it to but one other person and it immediately becomes immortal because they will carry it for as long as they live. The more of an impression you make upon someone, the further and deeper your image will go.
I support the idea of modeling child soldiers, nazi's, slaves, torture, and other horrific and unethical things no sane person would truly support because to me at least, it shows the true brutality and grotesqueness of war. I want people to shy away from parts of my fiction and say,
"That's horrible, why would you do such a thing?"
I would reply that we play a war game. We are emulating the grimness of the 41st millenium, where the living nightmares of today are everyday occurrence. There exists a multitude of horrific things in the world today, from boy soldiers in multiple parts of Africa who taste the flesh of those they slay, to governments and nations that have brought the systemic ruin of people both within their own borders and without.
Warhammer is a hobby, but it is also a statement many leave unsaid. As bad ass as the universe is made to be, I see it as a warning, a true omen of things to come should humanity forget the bloody and horrific history that continues to shape us - one that we are as futile from shaking as the the base emotions we let control us.
I'd also like to expand on your idea of the Nazi symbol as it brings up a good point. Remember that the Eagle is an integral part of Nazi symbolism, as it is the U.S., Imperial Russia, the Roman Empire. Yet we're fine with the Aquilla and the Death Korps of Kreig who are a mixture of WWI and WWII German sculpture. They also happen to be one of the most popular armies. Vostroya is based upon the Cossacks, the personal and terrifying guard of the Tzar of Imperial Russia, responsible for butchering entire towns in pre-soviet Russia. Valhalla is Stalinist Russia (arguably even more horrifying than Hitler due to him outright slaying tens of millions of his own people.)
Catachan's are US troops, some were responsible for things we'd normally believe American's were not capable of during war - and before you explode in nerdrage, let me say this: it all boils down to how INSANE war truly is. Rulers, governments, people in general, justifying murder over a realitively short list of things: the most common, someone else has something you don't, but want.
What image does the AK-47 impress upon you? Its leathality, durability, and widespread availability is virtually the same as the Lasgun. It can and has been fired by children in both reality and in the lore. This craziness happens, and it happens because we (yes we) as commanders - those in power - are telling our armies to march across the board and murder those who stand in our way. That's what war is. And that is why I love warhammer, because it allows me to imagine humanity's ultimate nightmare - a war without end or hope of victory - and unless we wake up (and in the case of extreme symbolism) shocked at what we continue to do to each other, a future like this may be what's in store if we ever get off Earth in the first place.
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Post by: TheAngrySquig
Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's, I don't give a rat's ass. Its not like I won't play against a Valhallan army because my relative bit it under who they were based off of. You can't justify that there is a line that should separate this game from the real world because so many of the official fluff-based armies are from real armies or events in history.
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Post by: DonerStoom
The line is everything in 40k is fantasy. It's just an idea. We enjoy things that kill and burn and main because its a fun game to play.
We roll some dice and laugh as a daemon prince stomps all over imperial guard cause its a good laugh.
Nazis actually killed millions of people. No if no buts no coconuts, that's not cool.
I'd rather only be reminded of the guards deaths when I go to have fun thanks.
Models that have a Nazi look without actually being covered. In swastikas I imagine would be fine.
Just some mean looking well dressed dudes, but I won't be looking to the SS for painting ideas.
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Post by: Testify
 DemetriDominov wrote: I also support the idea of modeling child soldiers, nazi's, slaves, torture, and other horrific and unpopular things because to me at least, it shows the true brutality and grotesqueness of war.
Then watch the news.
40k is about brightly coloured ultramarines, not drunk soldiers raping civilians. Automatically Appended Next Post:  TheAngrySquig wrote:Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's
You mean like 90% of Europe? The second world war was a "recent" memory, even as I was growing up, and I'm 23.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
Its odd where the line can be at times...but the general point made above is that the "line" exists at that fine point between modeling for aesthetic and modeling to make an inappropriate statement.
One of the first guard armies I ever saw, back in the late 90s was a Tallarn army done up as Mujahidin from the Soviet-Afghan War. Fantastically done up, visually stunning, and fitting a a theme. He has not taken that army out of its box since around Christmas time 2001, simply because people who do not know him (or when his models were painted) assume that he is being disrespectful to our efforts over seas or supportive of the Taliban. Its a weird world.
Anyway, if something is done tastefully I see no real problem.
As to your juves issue. In the 40k universe teenagers can serve as white shields on Cadia. Space Marines are drafted and inducted in their teens. I see no reason why a teenage soldier would be out of place in a 40k army...especially guard.
As an example of where I see the line:
Orks/Guard done up in nazi/ss aesthetics...cool
Guard/Orks plastered with nazi icons...not cool
But if people want to get all high and mighty about offending someone with an army. Think of this.
What would someone from Japan think of ww2 American guardsmen/aircraft?
Why are people not offended by Crusader symbols, possibly one of the most shameful events in Western and Church history?
The list goes on...but apparently the line is Nazis.
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Post by: Baronyu
 Testify wrote: DemetriDominov wrote: I also support the idea of modeling child soldiers, nazi's, slaves, torture, and other horrific and unpopular things because to me at least, it shows the true brutality and grotesqueness of war.
Then watch the news.
40k is about brightly coloured ultramarines, not drunk soldiers raping civilians.
... Ohhhh... crap.... I'm fleeing to another country then, been playing 40k all wrong!! !!![/badjokes]
I'd just like to add to what Testify said and say:
It's not that we think the world is made of lollipops, ice creams, unicorns and faeries dancing around pretty flowers, that the reality is just too scary to face, it's more that there is no reason to do something that could possibly upset someone. We all enjoy a few insensitive jokes here and there, but there is a place and time for that, just as you wouldn't go and use a dildo in public; yes, we know it's for sex, but we don't want to see you use it. So, if you really want to go with something offensive, leave it in your private group of friends who know you well and wouldn't be offended by it, what possibly could you gain by going with a dildo army at a family-friendly game(for example)?
If you honestly think that Nazi is a "good" way to represent yourself, then go ahead and do it, just don't expect anyone mature to shake your hand and thank you for enlightening them with your infinite wisdom, how they couldn't have possibly known that wars are terrible without you generously showing them with painted miniatures in a fantasy tabletop wargame, more than likely though, they'd see you as what Peregrine has described.
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Post by: TheNameless
My IG armored company are Nazi "themed" and I'v never heard a complaint about it. Maybe it's because there are no swastikas though, even i have to admit that that would be out of taste.
The Germans invented the tank numbering scheme that everybody uses in 40k during ww2 (you know, 111, 112, 113 ect)
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Post by: Rakeeb
I don't care, at all, AT ALL, about the mindset of the game. You play the game with people in the 21st century, so you need to keep their sensibilities in mind.
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Post by: DemetriDominov
Testify wrote:
40k is about brightly coloured ultramarines, not drunk soldiers raping civilians.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheAngrySquig wrote:Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's
You mean like 90% of Europe? The second world war was a "recent" memory, even as I was growing up, and I'm 23.
1. It's about brightly colored ultramarines curbstomping Orks = glorified violence, though entertaining, is completely pointless in solving much other the most unethical quandaries (my point entirely).
2. It's only "recent" memory because it takes multiple generations to forget an event like that. People still talk about the mason dixie line here, you can visibly see the divide of the US in our parties and rampant racism is prevalent across the country.
Bottom line, if you didn't fight a war, don't, and don't worry about the problems people create to fight one.
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Post by: Lobokai
Purifier wrote:What's the worst a person can think about you when you model your army with X?
Are you ok with them thinking that of you?
Do you care about the opinions of those that would think that?
Ask yourself these, and you'll know how far you can go.
+1 Lots of other good points too, by a lot of wise people...
To me, the line is when a person might sit down and see something unexpected across the table that isn't part of the 40k setting that is offensive. I don't expect to see nazi's, sex parodies, or pedophile references when sitting down to play 40k. Nor do I think its reasonable for someone to be subjected to that if they find any of those offensive. We all know the fluff and lore, and things contained within that using models that keep the theme of the GW stuff could present us. Most of us are offended when someone willfully puts something in front of us that is out of place. If what you're contemplating goes there, don't go there, or at least be ready to reap the whirlwind if you do.
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Post by: Darth Bob
Oh look it's this thread again.
Whether or not it's morally right or wrong is irrelevant. The fact is: it's your army, you payed for it, and you can model it however you want. Unfortunately, you need to be open to the possibility that there are going to be people out there who aren't terribly fond of your Nazi Orks. They will judge you. They will not be accepting. They probably won't even want to play you. Do I blame them? Nope. I wouldn't play you either.
You might not be a Nazi, but you are bringing unnecessary subject matter into the already grimdark universe of 40k for the sake of shock value. It's not appropriate in most social circles. If you are interested in the background of the Nazi subculture, as many historians are, then that's fine! I would recommend a game like Flames of War. But please, let's keep the 40k universe to Daemons, Aliens, and oppressive religious empires shall we?
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Post by: AndrewChristlieb
Nazi orks? Personally i dont have a problem with this. Mind you my family and I have taken some gak from people over our German ancestry including having our property vandalized with swastikas and threats made against us so i wouldnt say im distanced from this either, even here in the states there are enough people who hate everything about what happened that this sort of thing can happen. If your going to do something like this tho i belive you should have a reason for it some fluff or something. Even something as simple as this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_of_Force_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)
Dont come upto me tho and say your doin it because you thought it would be funny, because it isnt, and please dont say its because you respect the nazi beliefs or ideals thats just absurd.
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Post by: valace2
This is cowboys an Indians for adults an I love it. That being said I would have to seriously question the motives of anyone who would paint swastikas on their armies, an I don't think I would want to game with them.
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Post by: Decio
^ and teens. Youths make up a good number of players too, just sayin.' Why is this whole thread about Nazi themed armies and why Nazis are bad and your reactions to such a thing.
Possibly, the OP meant the line where your entire CSM army is covered in mounds of gore and mutilated Guardsmen and such? I mean, the line was about modelling in game with game fluff and not themed in real life.
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Post by: DemetriDominov
TheAngrySquig wrote:Speaking as someone who is connected to people who died under Stalin and to the Nazi's, I don't give a rat's ass. Its not like I won't play against a Valhallan army because my relative bit it under who they were based off of. You can't justify that there is a line that should separate this game from the real world because so many of the official fluff-based armies are from real armies or events in history.
That's what I'm saying, there really isn't a line when it comes between real life and 40k in terms of how futile a military struggle is.
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Post by: Ratbarf
Pretty much do model your army however you want, as long as you realize that there will be consequences when you model an army that some people might find distasteful. As long as you are ready to accept such consequences there is no reason why you should not.
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Post by: Motograter
This thread take several million. The idea of nazi orks or guard is absurd course it is but again its your army do what you want. People will complain as thats just how people are.
While there is a certain shock value and while some do model the army they chose to offend or they believe the stupidity of what the nazis done there is also a factor overlooked. A fully painted and a well painted army be it nazi orks or guard does look very good on tge table bad taste or not.
A question, if a player who was hindu came to your store with an army covered in swastikas would you play them?
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Post by: Makumba
Purifier wrote:
Because that was exactly my point. I find it ridiculous to be fine with playing at war, but all of a sudden be abhorrent to nazis, as if nazis are the only evil in the world.
We're already knee deep in evil, and then you find one turd flowing in the river of sh*t and you get offended by it.
I think it's a cruddy choice for army because it doesn't suit the fluff, but I think people that feel violated by it should really look at themselves and what it is they are saying.
this is the list of my closest family killed by the nazis durning WWII. both my grand mothers [father side] brother , their wife , one 6 month child , one 4 year old child . My grand grand father burned alive durning Warsaw uprasing , by Waffen SS that didnt let him go out of a burning building . On my mother side . My grand grand father , my grand grand dad [more or less whole village was pacified, there were 206 people killed on a single day some of them further family] , my grand dads 15 year old sister . My grand dad lived but had his hand cut off [he was 8 years old at the time] .On my mother side her mother had her village burned twice[first germans , then Russians] . Her 17 old brother was shot , because he went out of the house to look at driving german troopers
.And you claim that nazis or nazi stuff is on the same level ? closest thing you get to stuff like that is 90s balkan wars , somalia and maybe kongo/Ruanda , but it was on a much smaller scale .
But then again you are swedish . you guys have a different look on the whole nazis thing . You traded with them , you joined they ranks . So I can imagine why you think that it is ok to make nazi models .
A question, if a player who was hindu came to your store with an army covered in swastikas would you play them?
you know that this is a wrong asked question . First of all outside of UK there is no large hindu community in europe . Second of all hidus as a group are neutral to most of the world [pakistan/ UK/Aus/parts of africa and that is more or less it] . Nazis are not neutral , they never were and it will be a tragic day , if they ever will be .
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Post by: SalamanderMarine
I think that to solve the problem of the war is brutal thing is to remember the old star trek original series in the episode where the 2 civilisations wage war with computers and their citizens voluntarily kill themselves so they don't suffer damage to their buildings or culture, without the horrors of war there is nothing to make it horrible so it would continue, The horrors of war make for peace.
Also
"You can't just slap some nazi symbols or dildos on an army and call it a day."
Laughed at this.
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Post by: Purifier
Makumba wrote:And you claim that nazis or nazi stuff is on the same level ? closest thing you get to stuff like that is 90s balkan wars , somalia and maybe kongo/Ruanda , but it was on a much smaller scale .
But then again you are swedish . you guys have a different look on the whole nazis thing . You traded with them , you joined they ranks . So I can imagine why you think that it is ok to make nazi models .
What an assumption to make!
Actually, I'm half Danish and I have atleast 3 members of my close family that were killed for being in the resistance and being found out. They were killed using guns. The trademark of violence. Well, except for the one that was thrown out of a window.
I claim that the Nazis weren't just marching around with swastikas, everyone in the second world war killed eachother most with weapons much like those we have thrown about on every one of our troops. And in the first world war they were even worse. The disgusting death in the trenches by mustard gas and other inane tools of death that we now pretend to be using on plastic figurines for fun. I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?
The only reasonable person that has replied against it has been this:
 Polonius wrote:Part of being morally developed person is knowing what is appropriate for any given situation.
Society has rules, but every adolescent knows that the rules are not correct 100% of the time. Morally, one becomes an adult when you have the judgment to know when and where to break the rules.
that is why threads like these get bogged down by endless "why is X ok, when it's clearly no better than Y, which is not ok" type comments. A lot of people, well meaning I'm sure, simply don't have the moral judgment to understand the subtleties.
My problem with this is that it's social constructs. And if someone were to say "no, I won't play against it because it has swastikas" I'd completely understand it, but I would still challenge that person to think about what it is he is saying if that's possible without insulting him to his face, because I think it's important that people realise how their reasoning is only because of what society has told them. Guns, weapons and war are completely fine even though logically, by the same logic as Nazi emblems not being fine it shouldn't be. But we've been fed, because of our society supporting wars in general, with the image that this part of it is fine. Many people even turn their nose up at mothers disallowing their children toys that are, or are shaped as, weapons. That's silly, they say.
So yes, I understand the social implications of adult morality and I play by those rules in the social situations that require it. But I don't agree with it. It's just a way to not ruffle feathers. But this is a discussion board, and therefore I invite to discussions. I like to try to make people measure things objectively instead of from their own viewpoint.
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Post by: Peregrine
Purifier wrote:I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?
Because the nazi swastika is a specific political symbol. It's not a tool of war that could be used by any side of any conflict, it's a clear, direct reference to arguably the most thoroughly evil ideology our world has ever put into power.
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Post by: Purifier
Peregrine wrote: Purifier wrote:I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?
Because the nazi swastika is a specific political symbol. It's not a tool of war that could be used by any side of any conflict, it's a clear, direct reference to arguably the most thoroughly evil ideology our world has ever put into power.
I see what you are saying, but are you saying war can ever be a good thing? Weapons have, throughout time, done much much more damage than just what Hitler made them do. They are images of nothing but killing other people.
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Post by: Peregrine
Purifier wrote:I see what you are saying, but are you saying war can ever be a good thing? Weapons have, throughout time, done much much more damage than just what Hitler made them do. They are images of nothing but killing other people.
Specific. Political. It's not that complicated.
A gun is generic. It could appear on any side of any conflict. Good, bad, real, fictional, they can have guns. A nazi swastika is NOT a generic symbol, it's a specific reference to a real-world ideology.
A gun is a tool of war. If you're going to play a modern or future wargame, there will be guns of some form. A nazi swastika is NOT an inherent part of war, it's purely a political symbol.
I really don't see why it's so hard to see that guns are just part of a fictional wargame while nazi symbols are a reference to a subject that a lot of people don't want involved in their entertainment.
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Post by: Purifier
Peregrine wrote: Purifier wrote:I see what you are saying, but are you saying war can ever be a good thing? Weapons have, throughout time, done much much more damage than just what Hitler made them do. They are images of nothing but killing other people.
Specific. Political. It's not that complicated.
A gun is generic. It could appear on any side of any conflict. Good, bad, real, fictional, they can have guns. A nazi swastika is NOT a generic symbol, it's a specific reference to a real-world ideology.
A gun is a tool of war. If you're going to play a modern or future wargame, there will be guns of some form. A nazi swastika is NOT an inherent part of war, it's purely a political symbol.
I really don't see why it's so hard to see that guns are just part of a fictional wargame while nazi symbols are a reference to a subject that a lot of people don't want involved in their entertainment.
You're missing the point COMPLETELY. I'm saying that all war is abhorrent and that there is no "generic war". There is no "Good" side in a conflict. Seriously. Everyone is evil in war.
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Post by: Peregrine
Purifier wrote:You're missing the point COMPLETELY. I'm saying that all war is abhorrent and that there is no "generic war". There is no "Good" side in a conflict. Seriously. Everyone is evil in war.
Sorry, but if you can't see the difference between, say, the US forces liberating occupied Europe and an ideology dedicated to industrialized genocide, and how someone could be perfectly fine with fictional war but not with someone displaying the symbols of the genocidal government that killed their family, well, there's just no hope for you.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
Purifier:
Your missing peregrines point. We all acknowledge that war, in general is bad, and that weapons are symbols of that. What the majority of the group take issue with is taking a political symbol (with major negative implications) and plastering it all over some plastic toys.
We all have to live with war, its a fact of life, but people don't need to be reminded of past transgressions better left forgotten. Especially when they have no reason to be dredged up, such as during a game of toy space soldiers
Also, your whole line about playing by societal norms just so that you dont get bothered by people, but then claiming to have some objective special knowledge that lets you bypass the basic reasoning of social convention/morality is:
1. The slippery slope of sociopathic logic
2. A line of hipster/Ayn Rand bull, no one is objective, personal and group experience defines everything. Its why things are natively offensive to huge groups of people, because they become imbued with meaning through past action and usage. You cannot divorce the history of a symbol, object or word from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on the topic as a whole:
The line exists in the same place as it does in terms of the social contract vs free will.
A line has been crossed when player As self expression interferes with player Bs enjoyment of the game.
Dont misunderstand, but everything you do to/with your models is a form of self expression. Although it is good to remember that Aesthetics and Symbolism are two very different things.
Its perfectly ok to co-opt somethings look, but it is frowned upon to apply its meaning where it does not belong.
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Post by: Dragonzord
long thread is long..
the imperium often does exterminatus, how are they any worse than the holocaust?
Sure, theres the whole real vs not real thing... But while the holocaust actually happened, i really doubt any 40k players were actually involved on either sides. So to us, its about as real as exterminatus imo..
Edit: I'm not advocating the nazi's, or dare saying that it didnt happen. But like 40k, these days its just stuff in a book we read, or a movie, or a story we're told. Just like 40k.
Also, black templars... They seem to have a very iron cross-like image painted on them. Yet i see no issue here?
Edit 2: When i watched iron sky at the cinemas, we had one dude storm out yelling at us for enjoying a 'nazi propaganda' movie in this day and age. That got me thinking... If we forget that ww2 happened, or try to ignore that it did, then we're sure to make it happen again... So i really dont care how people paint their models... Its an entertainment hobby, do what entertains you.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
Dragonzord wrote:long thread is long..
the imperium often does exterminatus, how are they any worse than the holocaust?
Sure, theres the whole real vs not real thing... But while the holocaust actually happened, i really doubt any 40k players were actually involved on either sides. So to us, its about as real as exterminatus imo..
Careful with statements like that, some folk may take that very much the wrong way.
As it stands there is a huge difference between the fictional destruction of a planet from space because it would not join your empire/prevent the spread of evil....and the real, systematic and industrialized elimination of a few specific groups of people. Its not the scale of the murder that matters, its the gravity and the intent.
Treating the past like a story weve been told is how we start to forget the lessons we learned.
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Post by: Polonius
Purifier wrote:
Polonius wrote:Part of being morally developed person is knowing what is appropriate for any given situation.
Society has rules, but every adolescent knows that the rules are not correct 100% of the time. Morally, one becomes an adult when you have the judgment to know when and where to break the rules.
that is why threads like these get bogged down by endless "why is X ok, when it's clearly no better than Y, which is not ok" type comments. A lot of people, well meaning I'm sure, simply don't have the moral judgment to understand the subtleties.
My problem with this is that it's social constructs. And if someone were to say "no, I won't play against it because it has swastikas" I'd completely understand it, but I would still challenge that person to think about what it is he is saying if that's possible without insulting him to his face, because I think it's important that people realise how their reasoning is only because of what society has told them. Guns, weapons and war are completely fine even though logically, by the same logic as Nazi emblems not being fine it shouldn't be. But we've been fed, because of our society supporting wars in general, with the image that this part of it is fine. Many people even turn their nose up at mothers disallowing their children toys that are, or are shaped as, weapons. That's silly, they say.
So yes, I understand the social implications of adult morality and I play by those rules in the social situations that require it. But I don't agree with it. It's just a way to not ruffle feathers. But this is a discussion board, and therefore I invite to discussions. I like to try to make people measure things objectively instead of from their own viewpoint.
Well, yes, the simple, general rules are social constructs. That's a not unimportant realization. It's related to the understanding that the rules aren't always correct. That doesn't mean they are bad, in fact very few moral rules, no matter how simple, will lead a truly immoral end.
What you don't' seem to have grasped is the underlying ethical principle behind those rules. So, you see adherence, or maybe the expectation that others adhere, to the taboo against casual nazism as quaint, and even naive. I mean, it's just a taboo, right?
I could right lengthy paragraph explaining why Nazi symbolism is more offensive in the West than generic depictions of war (and even more so in northern/western europe and the North america), but I don't have the time. But it clearly is. Now, you'd want to argue why that is illogical, and that it's just a "social construct." Maybe you're right (although I don't entirely think you are, although as generations go by the taboo does become less grounded in fear), but that misses some of the point of morality. It's good that you play by rules you don't agree with to avoid ruffling feathers. You would like if people wouldn't just look from their point of view, although you don't mention looking at situations from theirs. And that's the missing component: adherence to the Nazi taboo at this point is about respecting the sensitivities of others.
That level of respect isn't given carte blanche, and not over everything. But enough people are bothered by, say, Nazi IG, to make it a factor. We can go on and on about the artificiality of the taboo, or we can ask ourselves, "what is the good in making this army, and what is the good in making other's more comfortable?"
Moral dilemmas, like a really good Star Trek episode, often come down to balancing tests between opposing values. Here, it's the value that a person should create freely, express himself, and have an individual arm against the value that we should not offend people with depictions of nazism, out universe influences, etc.
The answer to that balancing test is going to be different. A hypothetical person whose grandfather served in the Wehrmacht and want's to create an IG army that reflects that accurately would arrive at a very different answer than a person that thinks putting swastikas on tanks is "edgy."
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Post by: Dragonzord
yeah, edited twice 
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Post by: Polonius
Purifier wrote:
You're missing the point COMPLETELY. I'm saying that all war is abhorrent and that there is no "generic war". There is no "Good" side in a conflict. Seriously. Everyone is evil in war.
That is incredibly absolutist thinking, to the extent of being nihilist. The problem with a moral argument like that is that it does not alter the moral stakes for aggressive violence.
By this logic, an invading army bent on conquest and destruction is morally equivalent to an army attempting to prevent annihilation. In a world were conflict is inevitable, you might as well be the guy doing the invading and conquering!
Not all evil is equal. All humans engage in some evil. We just judge those that go too far.
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Post by: UberhAxTHC
What if someone modeled up IG nazis, just for the sake of creating the "ultimate bad guy army", that almost anyone could have fun in stomping the face off of? As in, they did it not because they like nazis, not because they're racist, not for the shock value, but because they want an opponent who will gladly play them and make snarky comments about how they're putting down nazi swine? The best way to make someone feel good about killing someone, is to give them a very good reason for wanting them dead. I'd say having Nazi guard would be a very good way to do that. And perhaps someone just wants to run an army that is so evil in game, that not even Chaos comes close to inspiring as much angry nerd game smack talk? Maybe they have more fun if their opponent is that much more committed to beating them? Maybe they like having their opponents go all out, and feeling like they absolutely, positively, MUST win this battle?
This is my opinion on the matter. If I were to ever run an army like this, it wouldn't be the for the shock value, it wouldn't be because I'm a racist (I'm totally not, btw), it wouldn't be just to make someone mad. It would be because I wanted an army that was so immediately recognizable as evil that my opponent would savor each and every kill from my army like a fine wine. And when playing 40k, one big thing that everyone always forgets is that you should always do your very best to make sure your opponent enjoys the game just as much as you do. And in a weird way, this goes toward that.
Also, as far as fluff goes, who's to say there wouldn't be a space hitler in the year 40,000 who has decided to rebel against the imperium and start a genocidal war? Come to think of it, the imperium is actually quite racist as it is (at least towards aliens...) so it's really not even that big of a leap.
The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.
Also, before anyone says anything ridiculous to me, I am a Jew, and my ancestors were in concentration camps during WW2. And I'm not crazy.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
Drgonzord:
The Black Templars use the Maltese Cross (Symbol of the Knights Hospitaler/Of Malta/Of St John) which is very different than the Cross Patte (symbol of the Teutonic Order and the Knights Tempar) that the Iron Cross is based off of.
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Post by: UberhAxTHC
Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.
Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?
And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
 UberhAxTHC wrote:Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.
Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?
And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?
Yes. The patron saint of the Knights Templars was Mary, the patron sainf of the Knights Hospitallers was St. John the Baptist and the patron saints of the Teutonic Knights were Mary, St. Elizabeth of Hungary and St. George. As such, painting Jesus on the cross on the Templar banners would be all sorts of wrong. 
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
UberhAxTHC wrote:Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.
Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?
And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?
Eh, I'd think it's out of place.
Sisters of Battle on the otherhand, being more like old Medieval style Catholicism. "Is that a relic? Tear it apart and spread it to the others, everyone shall have a holy relic of X!" I could understand.
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Post by: Jidmah
I'd like to point out that neither the swastika nor the nazi ideology are a thing of the past and forgotten. If you field an army of imperial guardsmen carrying aquilas, latin slogans and other roman symbolic, that's funky, but doesn't say anything about your stance on imperialism and slavery.
However, If you model your army to bear swastikas, fascist German slogans and other nazi symbolism, that's you taking a pretty clear stance on racism, mistreatment of minorities, as well as the mass-murder of those during the holocaust. The nazis weren't considered evil because they started and fought a war. You're right on that, many did that before and after them. They are considered evil because of what they've done after the war has long moved on. There were industrial-scale operations in areas far from the front lines doing nothing but killing people for no reason. The scale of their genocide is unprecedented in history, and has little to do with medieval barbarism during wartime. There is a reason why wearing a swastika in public is a crime in Germany.
If you were really interested in representing a historical German WW2 army, your army should not bear a lot of swastikas anyways - because the Reich's army didn't either. If you paint nazi symbolism all over your hobby, you're stating that you think that nazis are awesome - as well as everything they've done.
Maybe you simply can't relate to that, due to different cultural background. How about an ork klan wearing nothing but white hoods and using crucified dark-skinned imperial soldiers as boss poles? That's making about the same statement.
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Post by: Purifier
 Lightcavalier wrote:Purifier:
Your missing peregrines point. We all acknowledge that war, in general is bad, and that weapons are symbols of that. What the majority of the group take issue with is taking a political symbol (with major negative implications) and plastering it all over some plastic toys.
We all have to live with war, its a fact of life, but people don't need to be reminded of past transgressions better left forgotten. Especially when they have no reason to be dredged up, such as during a game of toy space soldiers
Also, your whole line about playing by societal norms just so that you dont get bothered by people, but then claiming to have some objective special knowledge that lets you bypass the basic reasoning of social convention/morality is:
1. The slippery slope of sociopathic logic
2. A line of hipster/Ayn Rand bull, no one is objective, personal and group experience defines everything. Its why things are natively offensive to huge groups of people, because they become imbued with meaning through past action and usage. You cannot divorce the history of a symbol, object or word from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on the topic as a whole:
The line exists in the same place as it does in terms of the social contract vs free will.
A line has been crossed when player As self expression interferes with player Bs enjoyment of the game.
Dont misunderstand, but everything you do to/with your models is a form of self expression. Although it is good to remember that Aesthetics and Symbolism are two very different things.
Its perfectly ok to co-opt somethings look, but it is frowned upon to apply its meaning where it does not belong.
1. Trying to imply I act like a sociopath for keeping an objective mind is really dangerous.
2. a) you obviously haven't read Ayn Rand as it doesn't even remotely relate and b) no one is truly objective but you can try to see things from someone else's perspective, or you can completely ignore trying to do that. Like the Nazis did and every other extremist group in history.
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Post by: Jidmah
UberhAxTHC wrote:The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.
There is a difference between a WW2 themed army and a nazi themed army. Just have a look at the Flames of War minis representing Germany's WW2 army. You'll see the difference. In addition, unlike games like Return to Castle Wulfenstein, Doom or similar games suggest, not every German soldier was a nazi. There are more red badges with swastikas in each of those game than you could find in most large cities. It's not like you could refuse going to war back then.
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Post by: Ss5fenix
 Jidmah wrote: UberhAxTHC wrote:The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.
There is a difference between a WW2 themed army and a nazi themed army. Just have a look at the Flames of War minis representing Germany's WW2 army. You'll see the difference.
In addition, unlike games like Return to Castle Wulfenstein, Doom or similar games suggest, not every German soldier was a nazi. There are more red badges with swastikas in each of those game than you could find in most large cities.
It's not like you could refuse going to war back then.
I agree. it comes down to the fact that its your hobby and your army so do with it as you will. If someone refuses to play with you because they are offended then move on.
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Post by: Polonius
UberhAxTHC wrote:
The most important thing to remember here, is that IT IS JUST A GAME. Owning a Nazi themed guard army does not automatically make you a Nazi. That concept is far and beyond ridiculous. Playing any WW2 themed first person shooter and picking a Nazi character does not make you a Nazi. It is just a game. JUST A GAME.
That's a great point.
It's just a game.
I'd agree that there is less moral signifigance to things in games (but not no signifigance).
The problem is that there is a reason for less moral significance: games simply aren't that big a deal. Which means that the positive value of any action in a game is likewise diminished. So sure, people shouldn't be as offended by a depiction in a game as in, say, the street. But whatever artistic, political, personal, or moral statement made by a person is diminished because it's in a game. If it's really just a game, and really doesn't matter...then why make armies that offend people?
And comparing a Nazi 40k army to Call of Duty or Flames of War is only superficial. Yes, both are depictions of hte german army from WWII in a game. There are many, many differences. COD and FOW both minimize the "nazi element", to a historically accureate level, as is always pointed out. A Nazi 40k army would exaggerate that quality. More importantly: what good is a WWII game without nazis? What is the value to a sci fi game without Nazis?
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Post by: The_Solitaire
Personally I love these threads just because everyone has an opinion and it's always different from someone else's.
Do I think slapping swastikas all over your army is racist? You bet and I wouldn't play you. Is theming your army around the WW2 German army racist? No, sometimes people just like the aesthetic qualities and if you had modelled it well and it looked good I would be more than happy to play against you (ie. the DKoK, that's what I'm talking about). Just because you like those aesthetics doesn't mean your racist/nazi/etc. It has nothing to do with personal ideology, just art and what you like looks nice. Sure there are times when these two cases overlap, and that's usually where it's up to us as individuals to make judgement calls.
Personally I draw the line at modelling your Commissar into Col. Klink. Any further and I'll have to have a good think if I want to play against you.
As for you OP, juves as snipers? I think it's a great idea, it fit's perfectly into the established fluff of the 40k universe and you wouldn't have to use those ridiculous ratling models.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
Purifier wrote: Lightcavalier wrote:
1. Trying to imply I act like a sociopath for keeping an objective mind is really dangerous.
2. a) you obviously haven't read Ayn Rand as it doesn't even remotely relate and b) no one is truly objective but you can try to see things from someone else's perspective, or you can completely ignore trying to do that. Like the Nazis did and every other extremist group in history.
1. My appologies for that, you came off a little odd and I was very tired at the time of posting. Anyway here is not the place to discuss that.
2. I am actually very familiar with the works of Ayn Rand. You may have meant something different, but the way you spelled it out was almost pulled straight from Atlas Shrugged. Anyway that is a discussion for another time.
I understand your point about seeing things from an alternate point of view, and that works for most things. Take the Stars and Bars for example, many see it as a symbol of states rights, while others see it as a symbol of racism and slavery. Personally I would enjoy a confederate themed IG army, but other people might get mad. Its understandable. But in what alternate point of view is Nazi symbolism ok?
As well, my comments about the intrinsic value of symbols were not meant as closed minded. Symbols have absolutely no meaning outside of historical context and usage connotation. As such, it is possible for something to be intrinsically offensive...such as the tilted swastika. In literature (and symbols) there is the idea of a triangle which exists between the reader (viewer), the author (creator), and the world. The only thing connecting the Reader and the Author is the text itself and the world. It is through the context of our collective history/culture that we must view anyone communication, and this is how meaning is generated. Its why words change from positives to negatives, or how symbols change from ones of warding to ones of worship etc. Its why people who read Starship Troopers seem to think Heinlein is a Fascist, when he is, in fact, a Libertarian.
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Post by: DonerStoom
To put it simply.
Are you ok with people assuming you are a Nazi sympathizer/supporter?
Do you want your force to say that about you? Really? Because people won't just think its painted up nice.
The world of 40k is perfect to put a brutal dictator as the head of your army but you don't need to carbon copy Nazis.
No great leader has stolen the identity of one who cameabefore them.
I just don't see why you would run the risk of causing such offense.
I was asked to cover or remove my t shirt that had a very bold anti religious statement in GW because it was offending a younger player.
I obliged, as it is my right to wear such an item, but I see no reason to throw it in a kids face when we were both there to have fun.
Personally I would refuse to play a Nazi army.
It's un imaginative and its offensive.
Same goes for something based on the IRA or Taliban or other murder organization.
And I play chaos/demons, so I love to "slaughter the innocent", but that's just on the table, and I in no way condone actually talking a life.
That's where I see the line.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
 The_Solitaire wrote:Personally I love these threads just because everyone has an opinion and it's always different from someone else's.
Do I think slapping swastikas all over your army is racist? You bet and I wouldn't play you. Is theming your army around the WW2 German army racist? No, sometimes people just like the aesthetic qualities and if you had modelled it well and it looked good I would be more than happy to play against you (ie. the DKoK, that's what I'm talking about). Just because you like those aesthetics doesn't mean your racist/nazi/etc. It has nothing to do with personal ideology, just art and what you like looks nice. Sure there are times when these two cases overlap, and that's usually where it's up to us as individuals to make judgement calls.
Personally I draw the line at modelling your Commissar into Col. Klink. Any further and I'll have to have a good think if I want to play against you.
As for you OP, juves as snipers? I think it's a great idea, it fit's perfectly into the established fluff of the 40k universe and you wouldn't have to use those ridiculous ratling models.
Best thing I ever saw, and probably where the line should be drawn....Tallarn Mujaheddin, with the Demo charge specialist troopers as suicide bombers. Incredibly un- PC, and has not seen the table since 2000, but it was done up by a Major in the US Army.
Again to the OP...juve snipers... totally ok, and very fitting.
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Post by: Goat
It all comes down to a personal level. Me, I'm morally bankrupt so if you want to field nazi's, ninja's, barbies, dildos, or any other stupid thing. Fine. But I am also a purist. If it doesn't belong in the 40k universe I will smash that model off the table with all my firepower to the point of it losing me the game. Example: My little Pony Nobz on Bikes(Ponies)
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Post by: Frakhead
Well some very interesting thoughts put forwards.
The jibes I got for wanting to use 'juves' were in good fun, just thought I would clarify that.
The Ork army was actually a great parody, Orkifying (for want of a better word) the theme. But then skinheads and Orks have a lot in common, imo, and such a parody is a good way of poking fun at them. It was some years back though, and haven't seen it since.
The line seems to me to be down to personal perceptions, taste and sensitivity. As far as I see it, as long as there is a particular idea and/or narrative, anything goes in 40K.
Edit:
Okay, a friend has just put forward an idea that even I would say is crossing the line, as far as what I would even consider playing against let alone have the audacity to put together. Lets just say it is a Slaanesh theme and leave it at that.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
The scale of their genocide is unprecedented in history, and has little to do with medieval barbarism during wartime. There is a reason why wearing a swastika in public is a crime in Germany.
You mean just like people can't model things based around Stalion's Soviet Union?
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm
Or Mao Ze-Dong of Red China? ?
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
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Post by: Polonius
Since the inevitable "Nazi Atrocities are roughly the same as others" argument has come up, I feel the need to explain why it's Nazism, and not the others, that bother people.
It's the concept of the other. Name genocides commited by industrialized, white, protestent christian governments against other white people. I'll give you as long as you'd like.
The reason Nazism is the terror to Europe and America is because Germany is not that different than us. They're educated, industrial, christian, and western. For a country that similar to us to go down that path shows that there is a dark heart lurking anywhere.
Russians killing russians? Nobody really understands Russia (except maybe russians). China is the embodiment of the East. Seeing genocide and atrocities there is expected, as they are "different" cultures.
That's not the case in Germany. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.
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Post by: Frakhead
Polonius wrote:Since the inevitable "Nazi Atrocities are roughly the same as others" argument has come up, I feel the need to explain why it's Nazism, and not the others, that bother people.
It's the concept of the other. Name genocides commited by industrialized, white, protestent christian governments against other white people. I'll give you as long as you'd like.
The reason Nazism is the terror to Europe and America is because Germany is not that different than us. They're educated, industrial, christian, and western. For a country that similar to us to go down that path shows that there is a dark heart lurking anywhere.
Russians killing russians? Nobody really understands Russia (except maybe russians). China is the embodiment of the East. Seeing genocide and atrocities there is expected, as they are "different" cultures.
That's not the case in Germany. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.
I am not sure that agree, but then again I am from a country that was in it from the beginning. The first French republic was genocidal, and the Americans had no qualms about siding with them.
As I say, it must be a perspective thing.
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Post by: Decio
What an assumption to make!
I claim that the Nazis weren't just marching around with swastikas, everyone in the second world war killed eachother most with weapons much like those we have thrown about on every one of our troops. And in the first world war they were even worse. The disgusting death in the trenches by mustard gas and other inane tools of death that we now pretend to be using on plastic figurines for fun. I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?
Um, there isn't mustard gas in 40k on our plastic figurines Inane tools of death? Mostly it was gas, rifles, artillery, machine guns, not some queer spinning saw blade launcher. And we don't throw guns like the ones IRL on our troops (unless you were referring to IRL but modern time), lasguns don't exist right now.
The images of WWII fade with each generation, the more recent event is 9 11. it certainly wouldn't be insulting to use a Tallarn army in battle (that's actually what I do)
because the Taliban had no real uniform. And 9/11 was terrible, I was only a toddler at the time, but just a couple days ago in history we watched some 9/11 videos where I felt kinda sickened. Still, Tallarns are A-Ok.
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Post by: captain collius
 AlmightyWalrus wrote: UberhAxTHC wrote:Sorry for the repeat post so soon, but I just had a random thought.
Do you guys think it would be crossing the line, if someone who played Black Templars decided to freehand a bunch of portraits of Jesus on their army banners?
And I don't mean the weird crying angels you see all over BA. I mean, like on the cross Jesus. Is that too far?
Yes. The patron saint of the Knights Templars was Mary, the patron sainf of the Knights Hospitallers was St. John the Baptist and the patron saints of the Teutonic Knights were Mary, St. Elizabeth of Hungary and St. George. As such, painting Jesus on the cross on the Templar banners would be all sorts of wrong.
OHHH HISTORICAL BURN!
seriously good point walrus.
To the original point war is not evil. The people who start a war for selfish or evil reasons are. Hitler was evil because he wanted to create a large purely Aryan state and he was going to do it through genocide. Also those who committed crimes against humanity under orders from the Nazi party structure are evil. Stalin was evil because he exterminated millions of his own people because of his paranoia. The Japanese military command of World war was evil because they executed prisoners and then worked them to death in condition similar to Nazi death camps. Saddam hussein was Evil because his men hunted and murdered Kurds for no reason. There are a million more examples of this throughout history.
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Post by: TheNameless
Peregrine wrote: Purifier wrote:I'm wondering why if the swastika insults you, why doesn't the other images of war that the Nazis carried? And that every other army killing children and raping has used throughout time?
Because the nazi swastika is a specific political symbol. It's not a tool of war that could be used by any side of any conflict, it's a clear, direct reference to arguably the most thoroughly evil ideology our world has ever put into power.
You could say the same thing about the Aquila. In fact, I do.
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Post by: Lightcavalier
The Imperial Aquilla (from 40k) is specifically modified and is an established part of the 40k universe.
The Swastika is not.
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Post by: Dragonzord
Lightcavalier wrote:Drgonzord:
The Black Templars use the Maltese Cross (Symbol of the Knights Hospitaler/Of Malta/Of St John) which is very different than the Cross Patte (symbol of the Teutonic Order and the Knights Tempar) that the Iron Cross is based off of.
heyy, i hadnt even thought of that. Thats a very damn good point
apologies for that mistake!
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Post by: Lightcavalier
Not to mention that the eagle as a symbol is used by at least 25 modern countries. As well as countless historical ones. And the 2 headed eagle is a Russian thing. Automatically Appended Next Post: Dragonzord wrote: Lightcavalier wrote:Drgonzord:
The Black Templars use the Maltese Cross (Symbol of the Knights Hospitaler/Of Malta/Of St John) which is very different than the Cross Patte (symbol of the Teutonic Order and the Knights Tempar) that the Iron Cross is based off of.
heyy, i hadnt even thought of that. Thats a very damn good point
apologies for that mistake!
Always a pleasure.
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Post by: Purifier
Polonius wrote:Since the inevitable "Nazi Atrocities are roughly the same as others" argument has come up, I feel the need to explain why it's Nazism, and not the others, that bother people.
It's the concept of the other. Name genocides commited by industrialized, white, protestent christian governments against other white people. I'll give you as long as you'd like.
The reason Nazism is the terror to Europe and America is because Germany is not that different than us. They're educated, industrial, christian, and western. For a country that similar to us to go down that path shows that there is a dark heart lurking anywhere.
Russians killing russians? Nobody really understands Russia (except maybe russians). China is the embodiment of the East. Seeing genocide and atrocities there is expected, as they are "different" cultures.
That's not the case in Germany. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.
I feel really self rightous saying this, but that sounds quite a bit racist to me. It's like you can just shrug off genocide if it's done by "those primitive folks"
I have quite a few Chinese friends. They are not getting mass murdered over there, you know? It's not a democracy, but that doesn't mean their leader has his foot on their throats.
I can't help but see people as the same either way. If the chinese are capable of it, so are we. I don't need the nazis to tell me that.
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Post by: DemetriDominov
DonerStoom wrote:To put it simply.
No great leader has stolen the identity of one who cameabefore them.
Hercules -> Leonidas -> Minos -> Alexander the Great -> Napoleon (He worshiped Alexander) -> Hitler (He also worshiped Alexander) -> Stalin -> Pol Pot -> Kim Jong ill -> Kim Jong un (His son) -> The Bush Dynasty -> Obama -> The Next President.
(That's just one line.. there are thousands)
Here's another:
Horus (the Egyptian God of the sun), 3000BCE (messiah of the sun), died brought into the underworld and is resurrected each morning -> Krishna (Hindu God of around 1500BCE) Born of a virgin, -> Mythra (of Zoroastrianism ~ 2000-1000 BCE) allowed people to enter into heaven after a sacred blood sacrifice, also became deity of the sun -> Buddha (400BCE) Meditated for 40 days and 40 nights to discover the universal truth, ->Jesus Christ, The Messiah, son of God born of a virgin who by his blood and flesh his followers may enter heaven, left into the desert (and presumably met buddists after 40 days and nights in the desert. Died, went to the underworld and was risen.
So no, EVERY great leader has stolen the identity of those who came before them. After all, where do you think the inspiration to do great things came from in the first place?
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Post by: Polonius
Purifier wrote:[I feel really self rightous saying this, but that sounds quite a bit racist to me. It's like you can just shrug off genocide if it's done by "those primitive folks"
I have quite a few Chinese friends. They are not getting mass murdered over there, you know? It's not a democracy, but that doesn't mean their leader has his foot on their throats.
I can't help but see people as the same either way. If the chinese are capable of it, so are we. I don't need the nazis to tell me that.
Not to get sanctimonious, but you need to take your own advice, and look at things from the perspective of others.
Virtually everybody is racist to a varying degree. And you don't need to be a racist to hold the completely rational viewpoint that the USSR in 1930 is radically different from your own country. By and large, people are willing to think that other groups are capable of worse things then their own group. Look at political parties, or high school cliques, or any time groups compare themselves to each other.
And even if you were some sort of supremely enlightened being utterly without bias, that makes you such a rarity that to imagine that your expeirence is anytyhing like the norm is laughable. Although, as a general rule, the phrase "I don't have any biases" is simply never true.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Frakhead wrote:I am not sure that agree, but then again I am from a country that was in it from the beginning. The first French republic was genocidal, and the Americans had no qualms about siding with them.
As I say, it must be a perspective thing.
The first French republic was neither industrial nor educated. I have more in common with the average resident in Tehran today than I do France in 1800.
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Post by: Purifier
I have loads of biases. Never said I didn't. But I don't shrug off genocide as "those other people"
I still think your distancing of yourself from anything that doesn't fit your argument is REALLY weird. "Doesn't count, because it's not white supremist" or whatever. Then how about Ku Klux Klan? It's been repeated that it's not the war but the politics that apparently makes the thing reprehensible, and I think most people indeed would be offended by a Ku Klux Klan army, so then that is the equal of Hitler in the way you are describing it, or do you mean that their death toll wasn't high enough?
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Post by: Backspacehacker
As many people here have already said the line is never the same. The thing is this is a game and people will make up an army of what ever they want.
As for the nazi army it all depends on the guy playin them. If he is a skin head then yeah its like cmon dude. But if its just some guy who did it because he love the colors and uniforms then aure why the hell not. If he can give a good story behind the colors and symbols go for it. Im not going to lie i think the old nazi colors and uniforms are one of the shapest uniforms in history. Does this mean i practice nazi ideals? No i just appreciate they looked good. It my be a little distasteful but hey they can do what they want.
On a side note dildo difiler= all the lawlz
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Post by: Polonius
Purifier wrote:
I have loads of biases. Never said I didn't. But I don't shrug off genocide as "those other people"
That's noble of you.
I didn't say people shrug off genocide. I'm saying that it's easy to look at something like, say, the Armenian Genocide, and see the ways in which the society commiting it is different from our own. It's harder to do that with Nazi atrocities. What you do isn't horribly relevant, it's what the people being offended, or looking to avoid offending others, think. And it's a pretty well established fact in sociology that race, religion, and culture are huge factors in how a person relates personally to the actions of another.
I still think your distancing of yourself from anything that doesn't fit your argument is REALLY weird. "Doesn't count, because it's not white supremist" or whatever. Then how about Ku Klux Klan? It's been repeated that it's not the war but the politics that apparently makes the thing reprehensible, and I think most people indeed would be offended by a Ku Klux Klan army, so then that is the equal of Hitler in the way you are describing it, or do you mean that their death toll wasn't high enough?
I have no idea what you're saying here. I'm pretty sure I've never used the term white supremicist. You seem oddly fixed on racism.
There many ways that nations differ. Race is one, but language, culture, religion, etc. are all factors. Yes, most Westerners can't relate well to China in the 1950s. That's not because of racism (we can relate well ot Japan and South Korea today), but because the culture is shockingly different. Same with 1930's USSR. Russians are white people, but they have a distinct culture from Western Europe/America.
The KKK actually buttresses my point: for a person in, say, Sweden, it might not be horribly offensive. That's a country without a long history of lynching. In the US, we're only a few generations out from slavery, and people still alive remember the nadir of racism in the 1920s. I worked with a black attorney who grew up during the Civil Rights era. The memory of the KKK is very much alive in the US. The actual Klan is, technically, alive, but not like it used to be. Still, it's offensive because it actually happened. Here, in the US. Intelligent, prominent, and respected men violently enforced racist ideology.
Would it be a raw and vivid thing even in Canada? Probably not. People might think it in poor taste, but there isn't the fear and guilt still alive in the community.
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Post by: purplefood
You can have a similar style to the SS without drawing Nazi symbols on everything.
If you start drawing Nazi symbols on everything you have gone too far.
Unless of course it's a WWII game...
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Post by: Backspacehacker
Ok well to make this thread short no matter what you do or paint some one will find something wrong with it. Paint what you want and hate what you want at the end of the day does the color of the model really effect the fun of the game?
/thread
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Post by: TheAngrySquig
The main thing is that there are fluff established regimes that directly copy recent horrible times. Stalinist Russia was worse than Hitler's Germany, because at least Hitler convinced people to believe in his reason, Stalin just straight up shot you. But nobody bitches about playing Valhallans. In WHFB people base armies on Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler and nobody bitches about it. People are just unnecessarily touchy about Hitler/Nazis
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Post by: Darth Bob
If you want to play an army of genocidal sociopaths, play The Purge. Those crazy motherfethers systematically exterminated 14 billion people in less than a month.
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Post by: Krauser1
 Backspacehacker wrote:Ok well to make this thread short no matter what you do or paint some one will find something wrong with it. Paint what you want and hate what you want at the end of the day does the color of the model really effect the fun of the game?
/thread
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Post by: Dezstiny
Really its as simple as.
If you have to ask yourself for justification " WILL THIS OFFEND SOMEONE?''
the answer is probably 99.99 % of the time yes. It's common sense and part of what it is to be an adult.
In additon to the said point.
As much as "what I do reflects upon me and not others", this kind of attitude is wrong, for it does reflect on
the store for allowing you to have it in the shop displaying it to the public. It reflects on the people in the shop
as coming off as o.k. or ignorant of that person haveing such an offensive symbolism. And it reflects on the community
as a whole as "Hey i went into that shop with the awesome looking models but when I went in there, they were laughing at the
idea of dildo models, and allowing nazi schemed armies. As much as I like the models, I dont want to join a community which protects
the "freedom of speech" for something which is deemed so offensive. YEA YOUR'E RIGHT MAN (I'LL MAKE SURE TO TELL THE GUYS")
and word spreads and the hobby dies.
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Post by: Peregrine
To clarify: DKoK are based off WWI French uniforms, with some elements of other WWI stuff thrown in (as you'd expect for an army that's essentially WWI in space). Steel Legion are the closest thing to a WWII German army, but they obviously just use some of the uniform and equipment style with none of the political designs.
TheAngrySquig wrote:The main thing is that there are fluff established regimes that directly copy recent horrible times. Stalinist Russia was worse than Hitler's Germany, because at least Hitler convinced people to believe in his reason, Stalin just straight up shot you. But nobody bitches about playing Valhallans.
That's because the Valhallans don't have the political symbols. They use some of the uniform elements, but there's nothing at all in the model design that says "Stalinism".
In WHFB people base armies on Ivan the Terrible and Vlad the Impaler and nobody bitches about it. People are just unnecessarily touchy about Hitler/Nazis
That's because you're talking about people from 500 years ago. Unless you research your family tree in detail you're incredibly unlikely to know that one of them killed someone in your family, and you're incredibly unlikely to meet someone who has personal ties to those events and would be offended by the army.
This is NOT the case with the nazi army. There are still people alive right now who survived the nazi genocide. There are still people alive right now who lost parents/children/etc to the nazi genocide. There are still many people alive right now who have a strong emotional connection to those events, and good reason to be bothered by someone displaying nazi images.
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Post by: Polonius
Peregrine wrote:. There are still people alive right now who survived the nazi genocide. There are still people alive right now who lost parents/children/etc to the nazi genocide.
I work with a guy that lost a big chunk of his family tree in the Holocaust. His father came over from Poland in the 30's, left a bunch of brothers behind...
I can understand why he'd be a bit touchy about the subject.
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Post by: Frozen Ocean
There's a distinct line between an army theme and direct support. No, a Nazi-themed 40k army isn't in good taste, but it's not racist. There's nothing inherently racist about the look of a Nazi uniform. Their ideology and actions? Definitely. But it's not racist, just like it's not racist to play any Imperial army - because that faction, albeit fictional, is extremely racist - to the point of genocide, even. That doesn't make the player racist, not unless, say, "I play Black Templars because I relate to how much they want to kill other races". Totally different. Playing Tyranids doesn't mean I actually want to eat everyone, nor would playing Sisters of Battle make me a devout Catholic or something.
However; dressing up your army as Nazis/some other real-world faction is silly. The first thing that would cross my mind would be "Why?". Sure, the ideology fits into 40k, and the Nazis have no monopoly on the colours grey and black. But as actual Nazis? What's the point? It doesn't fit thematically into 40k. MLP armies, Halo armies, whatever - I can understand those, because they have fandoms, and they aren't meant to be taken seriously. Unless you're a Nazi fan (which I highly doubt any painters of Nazi-themed armies actually are, and the theme doesn't suggest as such), there's little motivation to do something like this. If you're doing it for lulz and shock value then you're a tasteless fool. I would experience similar indifference with any other faction, say the IRA - which calls for an anecdote.
I live in Northern Ireland. I also run an RP site. An American member of said RP site (the setting is on an entirely different world, mind, so the following makes even less sense) wrote a character application, listing his character as having "Real IRA training". I didn't get offended or angry. I laughed, actually, because it's ridiculous. Firstly - what training? Unlike what people seem to believe, the Real IRA are not a super-awesome spec ops organisation. Secondly - it makes absolutely no sense in context. There's no IRA of any kind in our setting, and there's no reason to be inspired by them to make one.
The only conceivable method of having a legitimate reason for having a Nazi-themed IG army is if you're a hardcore WWII tabletop gamer (games which I will never understand the appeal of) and you play Germany. Even so, it only shows a terrible lack of imagination and attachment on your part.
Finally - this thread is stupid. 'Juvie' snipers are a-okay. Doesn't a codex even talk about child soldiers? Besides, in 40k, the rules of war are totally out the window. What happens to the civilians when the manly Imperial Guard or Space Marines fail to defend a world from Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, Necrons? In situations like those, there's nothing wrong with a child using a gun - it's simply practical. Like in LoTR when they get every boy who could possibly fight at all because they're extremely desperate and if they lose, they all die anyway. Young soldiers fits the Imperial Guard just fine. Nazis? Not so much.
I'd also like to point out that the swastika was not created by the Nazis nor is it a Nazi symbol. The Japanese didn't invent the circle, either, but that is also part of their flag.
What really gets me is when people write stories and portray things like rape as totally okay, even good. 40k fanfiction makes my skin crawl. Background fluff for an army that is totally not Nazi-themed but portrays Nazi ideology as a good thing is different - and I'm not talking about "Well done soldier, you killed some Eldar, Eldar are scum for being Eldar", because that's simply how the Imperium works, and whether or not the character whose POV the story is written from agrees or disagrees is immaterial.
Also, I just want to say - Purifier, I love you.
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Post by: Dark
Eh, without the red bands with swaticas on their arms, I'd totally field a SS looking like army.
Why? 'Cause it's hard to get classier than Hugo Boss designs on the battlefield~
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Post by: MarsNZ
Nazi Orks and Dildo Defilers wouldn't phase me in the slightest, I personally wouldn't do it but don't care if others want to wreck their expensive models in that way. I'm sure some people would be offended by contemporary US Army Space Marines, or Soviet IG, or Japanese style Tau etc etc. Everyone has their own boundaries and to push your moral values on another is the height of arrogance.
I've had people raise eyebrows when they see my Waffen-SS. It's a WW2 game for crying out loud ><
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Post by: Frakhead
So the old rule of no religion or politics please, prevails as a line.
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Post by: Frozen Ocean
But everything is religion or politics!
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Post by: Frakhead
Well with big brass knobs on.
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Post by: Frozen Ocean
How unsavoury of you!
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Post by: yeri
sorry if this is a bit old, but if you want WWII germans for a 40k army why not the Afrikacorps? my great uncle was actually captured by them and he's got some stories about how they were generally decent people who realized they were in the wrong, but kept fighting to keep their homeland from being destroyed.
there's actually a story about when they were first captured they were brought before Rommel and he saw a Star of David pendant one of them was wearing. he yanked it off the guy's neck threw it on the ground and burred it with his foot before telling the man: "you never had this, understood?"
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Post by: fishy bob
I'm currently working on a prophet Muhammed themed army.
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Post by: Frakhead
 yeri wrote:sorry if this is a bit old, but if you want WWII germans for a 40k army why not the Afrikacorps? my great uncle was actually captured by them and he's got some stories about how they were generally decent people who realized they were in the wrong, but kept fighting to keep their homeland from being destroyed.
there's actually a story about when they were first captured they were brought before Rommel and he saw a Star of David pendant one of them was wearing. he yanked it off the guy's neck threw it on the ground and burred it with his foot before telling the man: "you never had this, understood?"
May work for Imperial Guard. Rommel wasn't a Nazi, never went with the party line and never gave the party salute. Shame he didn't serve in Europe, as I am sure he would not have allowed Roma conscripts to have been taken to the concentration camps.
[Boring history lesson] Roughly 50% of Europe's Roma were murdered in the holocaust, and as an after thought, and are still subject to persecution in some eastern and southern parts of Europe today. /[boring history lesson] Automatically Appended Next Post:
So that would be lots of priests and SOB then. Not really original imho.
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Post by: Jidmah
 Dark wrote:Eh, without the red bands with swaticas on their arms, I'd totally field a SS looking like army.
Why? 'Cause it's hard to get classier than Hugo Boss designs on the battlefield~
I guess most people(including me) would even be fine with red bands without any further symbolism. That's pretty much what regular Comissars, DKoK or models like Zagstrukk etc look like anyways.
I've actually seen an SS-looking IG that had all their badges, flags and arm bands bearing symbols looking like this:
It still had the look he wanted, no one was offended, and he even got congratulated for the idea and nice looking army. Win-Win.
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Post by: yeri
Unless Muhammed is an empty base with a couple of footprints, or a sculpting blank painted stark white (how Muslims portray him in historical illustrations) please do not post that here. honestly with what happened this week, you probably shouldn't make the army at all. if a low budget troll can get a bunch of people killed, that army will at least get the game a fatwa, so please don't.
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Post by: Frakhead
yeri wrote:
Unless Muhammed is an empty base with a couple of footprints, or a sculpting blank painted stark white (how Muslims portray him in historical illustrations) please do not post that here. honestly with what happened this week, you probably shouldn't make the army at all. if a low budget troll can get a bunch of people killed, that army will at least get the game a fatwa, so please don't.
I know your from the US, but as one that comes from a country that has suffered American backed terrorism, I can only say that your lip needs stiffening.
* GW Nottingham receives Fatwa, new signs put out side GW stores topped with an Aquilla*
or more likely
That is the problem with you Americans. You make speak the language, but you never inherited the backbone.
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Post by: Frozen Ocean
What happened this week?
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Post by: Niner009
I think a good example is to reference the source but not necessarily copy it straight down...for instance, in the transfer sheets for the guard tanks there are some symbols that look like a hammer from the communist flag, which are designed to be included with a soviet/red army theme, but they aren't the true sickle and hammer so no one can claim offense to it....if you want to do Nazis, maybe do a plus sign instead of a swastika, or maybe the knight's cross.....as for kids....children fight, its a fact of war...even in the source material there are guardsmen who are under 18 (i think the main character from 15 hours was 17)
I think the cutoff for the nazis was 14....so I think that would be all right....don't make them wee lads, but I don't see an issue with teens
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Post by: yeri
an Egyptian copt trolled Islam on youtube with a movie called "the inoccence of muslims" (I won't even gratify it by capitalizing it) now a mob stormed our embassy in Libya and killed our ambassador and smeared his blood on the walls. they're storming our embassies all across the middle east right now.
Also I'm normally not one for being PC, but seriously these people don't know the rules of the internet, or even that free speech can't be controlled by the government. they see a troll and feed him with blood.
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Post by: reds8n
Frakhead wrote: yeri wrote:sorry if this is a bit old, but if you want WWII germans for a 40k army why not the Afrikacorps? my great uncle was actually captured by them and he's got some stories about how they were generally decent people who realized they were in the wrong, but kept fighting to keep their homeland from being destroyed.
there's actually a story about when they were first captured they were brought before Rommel and he saw a Star of David pendant one of them was wearing. he yanked it off the guy's neck threw it on the ground and burred it with his foot before telling the man: "you never had this, understood?"
May work for Imperial Guard. Rommel wasn't a Nazi, never went with the party line and never gave the party salute. Shame he didn't serve in Europe, as I am sure he would not have allowed Roma conscripts to have been taken to the concentration camps.
I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense.
The idea of Rommel being, essentially, " a nice Nazi-lite" has been comprehensively debunked seval times now.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1097643/The-real-Rommel-Enduring-myth-decent-Nazi-debunked.html
He was an out and out nazi, who stongrly supported the party line.
He only had his position due to the Nazi regime.
The German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel achieved a rare feat for any military commander - he became a legend in his own lifetime - and he remains the best known German general of World War Two in the English speaking world.
In fact, Rommel was acutely aware of the power of propaganda in developing his career and reputation. He assiduously courted the German government's media machine, the Ministry of Information and Propaganda run by Joseph Goebbels. Rommel's interest arose from the fact that his position in the German army was entirely dependent on Hitler's patronage. Since he had never been staff trained, the normal professional route to high command was not open to him.
His book Infantry Attacks, however, which detailed his extraordinary feats of bravery in World War One, caught Hitler's attention, and the Führer gave him the command of his bodyguard battalion during the Polish campaign of 1939
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Post by: Frakhead
 reds8n wrote:Frakhead wrote: yeri wrote:sorry if this is a bit old, but if you want WWII germans for a 40k army why not the Afrikacorps? my great uncle was actually captured by them and he's got some stories about how they were generally decent people who realized they were in the wrong, but kept fighting to keep their homeland from being destroyed.
there's actually a story about when they were first captured they were brought before Rommel and he saw a Star of David pendant one of them was wearing. he yanked it off the guy's neck threw it on the ground and burred it with his foot before telling the man: "you never had this, understood?"
May work for Imperial Guard. Rommel wasn't a Nazi, never went with the party line and never gave the party salute. Shame he didn't serve in Europe, as I am sure he would not have allowed Roma conscripts to have been taken to the concentration camps.
I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense.
The idea of Rommel being, essentially, " a nice Nazi-lite" has been comprehensively debunked seval times now.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1097643/The-real-Rommel-Enduring-myth-decent-Nazi-debunked.html
He was an out and out nazi, who stongrly supported the party line.
He only had his position due to the Nazi regime.
The German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel achieved a rare feat for any military commander - he became a legend in his own lifetime - and he remains the best known German general of World War Two in the English speaking world.
In fact, Rommel was acutely aware of the power of propaganda in developing his career and reputation. He assiduously courted the German government's media machine, the Ministry of Information and Propaganda run by Joseph Goebbels. Rommel's interest arose from the fact that his position in the German army was entirely dependent on Hitler's patronage. Since he had never been staff trained, the normal professional route to high command was not open to him.
His book Infantry Attacks, however, which detailed his extraordinary feats of bravery in World War One, caught Hitler's attention, and the Führer gave him the command of his bodyguard battalion during the Polish campaign of 1939
Have you got information that does not come from a tabloid? nothing wrong with the Daily Mail per se, but it is quite sensationalist. Monty is said to have admired Rommel, which is good enough for me. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Niner009 wrote:I think a good example is to reference the source but not necessarily copy it straight down...for instance, in the transfer sheets for the guard tanks there are some symbols that look like a hammer from the communist flag, which are designed to be included with a soviet/red army theme, but they aren't the true sickle and hammer so no one can claim offense to it....if you want to do Nazis, maybe do a plus sign instead of a swastika, or maybe the knight's cross.....as for kids....children fight, its a fact of war...even in the source material there are guardsmen who are under 18 (i think the main character from 15 hours was 17)
I think the cutoff for the nazis was 14....so I think that would be all right....don't make them wee lads, but I don't see an issue with teens
In the UK it is 16, and has been since forever as far as I know.
Background wise I have 8 year olds as PDF, which is pretty much the medieval age of non-front line troops. Training starts at 3, which is taken from the age that Kung Fu and other martial arts were taught (maybe they still are), you are picked at birth to actually do military service.
The Orks that I saw had a Orky skull in the centre, as I said, the whole theme was orkyfied (is there an actual word for making things Orky?) Automatically Appended Next Post: yeri wrote:
an Egyptian copt trolled Islam on youtube with a movie called "the inoccence of muslims" (I won't even gratify it by capitalizing it) now a mob stormed our embassy in Libya and killed our ambassador and smeared his blood on the walls. they're storming our embassies all across the middle east right now.
Also I'm normally not one for being PC, but seriously these people don't know the rules of the internet, or even that free speech can't be controlled by the government. they see a troll and feed him with blood.
What? I heard a Jewish business man was involved in the mix as well as that nut job priest you have in the states... The one that was going to burn books (no good can come from a guy who wants to burn books)
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Post by: yeri
I am also a bit suspicious of this article, the author's source seems to be mostly speculation. also if this is the Allan Hall that I think it is there is no way he could have written that article, he was dead for almost seven years when this article was published.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Hall
Unless the author is Molly Squidpidge or a pseudonym it couldn't have been Allan Hall.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yeri wrote:
an Egyptian copt trolled Islam on youtube with a movie called "the inoccence of muslims" (I won't even gratify it by capitalizing it) now a mob stormed our embassy in Libya and killed our ambassador and smeared his blood on the walls. they're storming our embassies all across the middle east right now.
Also I'm normally not one for being PC, but seriously these people don't know the rules of the internet, or even that free speech can't be controlled by the government. they see a troll and feed him with blood.
What? I heard a Jewish business man was involved in the mix as well as that nut job priest you have in the states... The one that was going to burn books (no good can come from a guy who wants to burn books)
the producer a shady copt said that he had been given 5 mil to make the film by 100 Jewish contributors (if that doesn't raise the troll flag what does 2/10) and that nut job priest promoted the film.
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Post by: Testify
reds8n wrote:Frakhead wrote: yeri wrote:sorry if this is a bit old, but if you want WWII germans for a 40k army why not the Afrikacorps? my great uncle was actually captured by them and he's got some stories about how they were generally decent people who realized they were in the wrong, but kept fighting to keep their homeland from being destroyed.
there's actually a story about when they were first captured they were brought before Rommel and he saw a Star of David pendant one of them was wearing. he yanked it off the guy's neck threw it on the ground and burred it with his foot before telling the man: "you never had this, understood?"
May work for Imperial Guard. Rommel wasn't a Nazi, never went with the party line and never gave the party salute. Shame he didn't serve in Europe, as I am sure he would not have allowed Roma conscripts to have been taken to the concentration camps.
I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense.
The idea of Rommel being, essentially, " a nice Nazi-lite" has been comprehensively debunked seval times now.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1097643/The-real-Rommel-Enduring-myth-decent-Nazi-debunked.html
He was an out and out nazi, who stongrly supported the party line.
He only had his position due to the Nazi regime.
The German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel achieved a rare feat for any military commander - he became a legend in his own lifetime - and he remains the best known German general of World War Two in the English speaking world.
In fact, Rommel was acutely aware of the power of propaganda in developing his career and reputation. He assiduously courted the German government's media machine, the Ministry of Information and Propaganda run by Joseph Goebbels. Rommel's interest arose from the fact that his position in the German army was entirely dependent on Hitler's patronage. Since he had never been staff trained, the normal professional route to high command was not open to him.
His book Infantry Attacks, however, which detailed his extraordinary feats of bravery in World War One, caught Hitler's attention, and the Führer gave him the command of his bodyguard battalion during the Polish campaign of 1939
He is mainly well regarded because of the treatment of British POWs. My graddad fought in the 8th Army and always spoke highly of Rommel, though he was never captured himself. He was also associated with the anti-Hitler plot, so people assume he was anti-nazi.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Censorship is obscene.
Paint your army however you want them to look.
You can not please everyone so please yourself. Those that mind do not matter, and those that matter do not mind.
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Post by: Oggthrok
I actually had to sign up an account to post in this thread
As luck would have it, I have an Imperial Guard army based on a WW2 era German "Heer" army. The paint schemes and uniforms are clearly inspired by history. So why do this, and how do you keep it from being tasteless?
1. First, Wargames Factory makes that great Shock Troop box set, as seen here: http://wargamesfactory.com/webstore/alien-suns/shock-troops-sci-fi-greatcoat-troopers . They're not as good as GW kits, but they fill the long desired "greatcoat" guard look nicely. And, the helmets and uniforms are clearly inspired by German aesthetic.
2. I grew up reading "Finescale Modeler", which runs articles every month on painting miniature tanks. And, for whatever reason, in the 1/35 scale miniature kit world, German subjects were dominant through the 70s, 80s, and 90s. (Thankfully, there's a lot more variety now) Thus, most of the painting guides were for getting just the right "Dunkelgelb." So, it's a natural extension of that modeling world to bring those techniques to the 40k designs.
3. In spite of these inspirations, this is not intended to represent a "nazi" army, in two different ways.
First, the national socialist party of Germany is anachronistic to the 40k setting; in my personal fluff these are regiments are raised from Hive Volkholm, capital city of the Vulcanheim industrial core that provides munitions to Cadia prior to Volkholme's fall to Chaos during the 13th Black Crusade. In spite of the dunkelgelb paint schemes and feldgrau great coats, no non- 40k symbols appear in this army. While I do not agree with the degree of self-censorship evident in this thread, I agree that symbols like the Swastika imply direct connection with the literal real-world Nazis, a connection that implies either historical recreation or support of nazi ideology.
Second, even historically the German army of the second world war was not comprised of "nazis" as we think of them. The majority of the forces fighting were general "heer" or army units, undertaking a war of conquest that, while vile, was on par morally with WWI or even the Napoleonic wars; an act of aggression to claim power and property, and to settle past grudges and pride.
Alongside this common army are the party members, and the SS units, who are the nazis we think of when think of WW2. From them we get the death camps and the holocaust, which I think is really the stomach turning part of the war, the part that shocked the outside world to the core and has remained an enduring symbol of what evil is for the majority of a century to follow. War has always been hell, but this was something different to western eyes, something far, far worse.
Consequently, I wouldn't make a 40k army inspired specifically by the SS, anymore than I would make cutesy little "death camp" terrain to be fought over. There's a reason the History channel used to get German and US tank commanders together in the same room to discuss their experiences and the merits of the tanks and tactics used, rather than packing the German commander off to a war crimes trial the moment he turned up - the activities of the SS and the German armed forces were distinct. One was guilty of nationalism and war mongering, something altogether common in European history. The other, unforgivable, industrialized genocide.
For further examples of what I've tried to do with my Imperial Guard army to skirt this line, consider the Fantasy Flight game "Dust Tactics," which features an alternate World War 2 that invites players to take on the role of the Axis, piloting giant robots and mutant apes against the Allies. How did they get the German aesthetic, without encouraging players to play Nazis? Essentially, they built up an alternate history in which a cabal of mystics and super-scientists assassinate Hitler, purge the Nazi party from the government, and set about renewing the war effort for reasons only they are really privy to. (It involves an imminent alien invasion that is Germany's fault) I think Dust nicely captures the two-fisted Weird War version of history, without the really icky parts, and it's this style I hope to emulate in my own army.
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Post by: A Kvlt Ghost
Horst wrote:You can't just slap some nazi symbols or dildos on an army and call it a day.
This thread has been very educational imho.
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Post by: reds8n
Frakhead wrote: reds8n wrote:
Have you got information that does not come from a tabloid? nothing wrong with the Daily Mail per se, but it is quite sensationalist. Monty is said to have admired Rommel, which is good enough for me.
If you read the article concerned you'll see it's about an exhibition in Germany from a few years back, it's not a random article written "just because".
.. Which given the Mail's history is exceptionally unlikely.
as to the idea that he's dead ..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Allan+Hall
looks like it's a different person/persons seeing as articles under this name are appearing in this very week.
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