Russ would do worse than Sang in my opinion, probably charge in all reckless-like and get cut down by the (semi)mortal embodiment of Chaos.

+1 to the Emperor pulling his punches though, if he'd gone aboard Vengeful Spirit with the intention of just killing Horus well, he wouldn't be sitting in that throne right now.

As a SW fan, I think that the only difference would be that the Emperor would find Horus with a badly swollen eye, but that's all and the final outcome the same.

Another thing to consider is that Sanguinius was completely exhausted after fighting Ka'Bandha. So the question remains if Russ would have been able to defeat Ka'Bandha and then have the strength to fair any better against Horus.

The Daemon would return to plague the Blood Angels again during the Battle of Terra, where it yet again challenged the Angel Primarch to battle. Attacking the Primarch when his back was turned, the daemon quickly cast Sanguinius to the ground. But, unlike Signus Prime, this time Sanguinius rose to his feet once again, and calling upon the last of his strength, hefted the Daemon by the neck, raised it above his head, and with a last display of might, broke Ka'Bandha's back over his knee, before hurling the Greater Daemon back into the heretic army and finally retreating back to the safety beyond the walls of the Eternity Gate

Edit for spelling mistakes.

djones520 wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Russ wouldn't fair any better here, the point is that only the Emperor could best the Dark Son and even he struggled to do it and depending on what version of the lore, with the aid of Horus himself.

The Emperor only struggled because of his emotional attachement to Horus. When he truly unleashed his full power he sent the Chaos Gods themselves into flight. Had the gloves come off right away, Horus never would have stood a chance, never would have even wounded the Emperor.

So like I said then. We have the version where Horus holds back the Chaos Gods long enough for the Emperor to deliver the killing blow (Visions) and the version where he doesn't and the Emperor just delivers the whammy (Bill King).

If Horus wasn't able to contain the Gods then the Emperor could have been finished off.

Unfortunately, we don't know the particulars of how Sanguinius' fight went with Horus. If it really was a matter of an instant thrashing, then I don't see how Russ could have fared any better.

Knowing Sang,he probably first tried to bring back Horus to the light, then went to fight - with Russ,hmmm, probably bezerk style (like Horus spiting in his beer madness),he hated words(remembrancer with guns,remeber)...

Orblivion wrote:
Unfortunately, we don't know the particulars of how Sanguinius' fight went with Horus. If it really was a matter of an instant thrashing, then I don't see how Russ could have fared any better.

We know that it wasn't an instant thrashing, and we can guess that is was a battle of words as much as a battle of weapons, lasting a fair amount of time;

Lexicanum wrote:Even in the pit of Horus's tainted and mutated Chaos fuelled Battle Barge did Sanguinius try to revert his brother to the side of the Emperor, using their old friendship as a lever. Horus would not listen to or agree with any of Sanguinius' words and the two argued and tried to sway the other to the side of the heresy they stood upon. Sanguinius was eventually struck down by Horus, the only damage Sanguinius doing was creating a small dent in Horus' armour.

To me, this paints an image of the two circling one another, lightly testing each other's defences while their attention lies more on their words to one another than their actual duel. Then, when they know it's a hopeless cause, they go in for the kill. I suspect that this second phase of the battle was over pretty quickly, with Sanguinius landing his glancing blow at the expense of letting Horus through his defence, at which point Horus simply struck the Angel down.

I'm not that clued up on what Russ' relationship with Horus was... but I'd imagine that the whole first phase of trying to turn each other would be skipped and Russ would simply charge in anger at Horus, possibly landing a wound on him before biting the dust - this is not the Horus that was defeated in a sparring match.

Finally, the Ka'Bandha point is valid. He had already broken Sanguinius' legs earlier in the war, and no doubt drained the Primarch of a portion of his strength at Eternity Gate, just prior to the assault on the Vengeful Spirit. So, those would have to be taken into cosideration, too.

Actually, Russ might have done better, but the end result would have been worse. Because Horus and Russ had no love for each other, so Horus would have just mutilated him, and the Emperor didn't love Russ as much as Sanguinius, so it would have taken more for him to realize Horus was one bad melon-fether and in that time Horus could have full out killed him rather than just opening him up several new donkey-caves

Yes,no and no...Russ respected Horus and vice versa,but you have to understand Emp didn't love any other primarch as much as Horus - I think Emp didn't even like Sanguinius that much (based on a facts from fear to tread, when Sang is terrified to show red thirst the Emp fearing for his and his legion life)....Sang was beloved by all primarchs (maybe not Angron,Curze or Perturabo),and men - but Emp had only one favorite child above others and doesn't matter who laid in the pool of blood under Horus...besides thats a little insulting to say that Emp loved more Sang then Russ(who was his executioner),with none of the clear facts...

 Anfauglir wrote:

I'm not that clued up on what Russ' relationship with Horus was... but I'd imagine that the whole first phase of trying to turn each other would be skipped and Russ would simply charge in anger at Horus, possibly landing a wound on him before biting the dust - this is not the Horus that was defeated in a sparring match.

This is true, but then again, Russ wouldn't be going into this as held back he would a sparring match. I'll still give the match to corrupted Horus, though.
And Russ is *not* the mindless berserk a lot of people seem to think he is - that niche is and always has been, Angron's. Russ was actually highly intelligent, otherwise he couldn't have had the victory tally that he did.
He's *not* the 40K incarnation of Wolverine. Russ' (and by extension the Space Wolves') headstrong attitude might get him into a lot of fights, but once there, he fights with cold fury and controlled ferocity, not as a mindless berserk who cares nothing for his own defence in favour of landing a blow.

We'll have to wait for the new HH series to reach the fight between Horus and Sanguinius, but I think Fear to Tread made it very obvious that the current version of Horus has no intention of converting Sanguinius. There would be little, if any, conversation between the two at this point IMO.

To answer the question though, I don't think Russ would have done any better to be honest. The feeling I get from the current fluff is that Horus dispatched Sanguinius with little to no trouble, I just don't see how any other primarch would have been able to survive the encounter.

Orblivion wrote:
We'll have to wait for the new HH series to reach the fight between Horus and Sanguinius, but I think Fear to Tread made it very obvious that the current version of Horus has no intention of converting Sanguinius. There would be little, if any, conversation between the two at this point IMO.

To answer the question though, I don't think Russ would have done any better to be honest. The feeling I get from the current fluff is that Horus dispatched Sanguinius with little to no trouble, I just don't see how any other primarch would have been able to survive the encounter.

Ironicaly ,when Horus was jesting how he would plucked Sang wings out and later if the trap failed, he will kill him himself - he did....

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

I'm not that clued up on what Russ' relationship with Horus was... but I'd imagine that the whole first phase of trying to turn each other would be skipped and Russ would simply charge in anger at Horus, possibly landing a wound on him before biting the dust - this is not the Horus that was defeated in a sparring match.

This is true, but then again, Russ wouldn't be going into this as held back he would a sparring match. I'll still give the match to corrupted Horus, though.
And Russ is *not* the mindless berserk a lot of people seem to think he is - that niche is and always has been, Angron's. Russ was actually highly intelligent, otherwise he couldn't have had the victory tally that he did.
He's *not* the 40K incarnation of Wolverine. Russ' (and by extension the Space Wolves') headstrong attitude might get him into a lot of fights, but once there, he fights with cold fury and controlled ferocity, not as a mindless berserk who cares nothing for his own defence in favour of landing a blow.

that, anyone that read the HH space wolves novels understand that Russ is smart. Even the wolves are smart when they get over Blood Claws rank and start controlling their beast better. Russ was a butcher, but he would never rush in like an idiot into something he could not win if there was a better option avaible. The SW were driven by their old viking like manners, but the Jarls were smart warmasters and so was Russ. After all, a good Butcher is a smart one.

Horus would win though, corrupted Horus was way stronger than "clean" Horus.

 Serder wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

I'm not that clued up on what Russ' relationship with Horus was... but I'd imagine that the whole first phase of trying to turn each other would be skipped and Russ would simply charge in anger at Horus, possibly landing a wound on him before biting the dust - this is not the Horus that was defeated in a sparring match.

This is true, but then again, Russ wouldn't be going into this as held back he would a sparring match. I'll still give the match to corrupted Horus, though.
And Russ is *not* the mindless berserk a lot of people seem to think he is - that niche is and always has been, Angron's. Russ was actually highly intelligent, otherwise he couldn't have had the victory tally that he did.
He's *not* the 40K incarnation of Wolverine. Russ' (and by extension the Space Wolves') headstrong attitude might get him into a lot of fights, but once there, he fights with cold fury and controlled ferocity, not as a mindless berserk who cares nothing for his own defence in favour of landing a blow.

that, anyone that read the HH space wolves novels understand that Russ is smart. Even the wolves are smart when they get over Blood Claws rank and start controlling their beast better. Russ was a butcher, but he would never rush in like an idiot into something he could not win if there was a better option avaible. The SW were driven by their old viking like manners, but the Jarls were smart warmasters and so was Russ. After all, a good Butcher is a smart one.

Horus would win though, corrupted Horus was way stronger than "clean" Horus.

Sorry if I gave off the impression that I think Russ isn't smart and just a brainless beserker - that's not the case. I'm just saying that, if I were to envision Russ is that specific situation at that specific time, his approach to dealing with Horus would be less about trying to talk Horus down and more about wanting to smash his face in for dragging the Imperium into a massive war. I think he'd last about the same amount of time as Sanguinius would, except in place of the chit-chat before killing blows were exchanged, Russ would skip straight to the nitty gritty fighting. I may be wrong if they were friends on a similar level to Horus and Sanguinius.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Yes,no and no...Russ respected Horus and vice versa,but you have to understand Emp didn't love any other primarch as much as Horus - I think Emp didn't even like Sanguinius that much (based on a facts from fear to tread, when Sang is terrified to show red thirst the Emp fearing for his and his legion life)....Sang was beloved by all primarchs (maybe not Angron,Curze or Perturabo),and men - but Emp had only one favorite child above others and doesn't matter who laid in the pool of blood under Horus...besides thats a little insulting to say that Emp loved more Sang then Russ(who was his executioner),with none of the clear facts...

Well obviously they respected each other, but not as much as Horus and Sanguinius. And of course Sanguinius was scared of what the Emperor would do if he found out about their mutation! It didn't work too well for II/XI

See again, I do get that you are BA fan,but you can't put Sangunius on top of the other primarchs - chaos Horus scattered all the potential threats,and sending Russ to kill TS was the best move he pulled on the whole damn Heresy (on his behalf)
+ Istvaan mascre...btw Horus respected Sanguinius as much as Russ respected Magnus....

 DarthMarko wrote:
See again, I do get that you are BA fan,but you can't put Sangunius on top of the other primarchs - chaos Horus scattered all the potential threats,and sending Russ to kill TS was the best move he pulled on the whole damn Heresy (on his behalf)
+ Istvaan mascre...btw Horus respected Sanguinius as much as Russ respected Magnus....

Russ respected the one eyed mutant warcaster a lot! Oh wait...

Jokes aside, I thought I had read in some of the HH novels that Sanguinus was giving some counsel to Horus when their legions were fighting side by side. I'ts beena while since I read an HH novel though so I might be wrong.

That does seem to ring a bell somewhere, and from the first few books in the series it certainly seems as though Horus respects Sanguinius' leadership skills at least more than the other Primarchs, at one point even stating that he (Sanguinius) should have been Warmaster.

There's a difference between that respect and Sanguinius being better in cc than Russ though. Again, I can see Russ doing more damage to Horus regardless of whether there's banter beforehand.
I could even see Russ holding his temper in check and wait for the Emp to arrive before going in the throne room together (would tactically be a good decision...).

I can't see Russ defeating corrupted Horus mano a mano.

Bran Dawri wrote:
That does seem to ring a bell somewhere, and from the first few books in the series it certainly seems as though Horus respects Sanguinius' leadership skills at least more than the other Primarchs, at one point even stating that he (Sanguinius) should have been Warmaster.

There's a difference between that respect and Sanguinius being better in cc than Russ though. Again, I can see Russ doing more damage to Horus regardless of whether there's banter beforehand.
I could even see Russ holding his temper in check and wait for the Emp to arrive before going in the throne room together (would tactically be a good decision...).

I can't see Russ defeating corrupted Horus mano a mano.

not a single primarch could've done it. IIRC, sanguinus kills himself (figuratively, because he knwe that if he engaged Horus, he was going to get killed) to wound Horus so that the Emperor could win. That means that not wounded Horus was a match for the Emperor in Sanguinus visions and the emperor sent Russ flying with a back hand slap when they first met...

 Serder wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
See again, I do get that you are BA fan,but you can't put Sangunius on top of the other primarchs - chaos Horus scattered all the potential threats,and sending Russ to kill TS was the best move he pulled on the whole damn Heresy (on his behalf)
+ Istvaan mascre...btw Horus respected Sanguinius as much as Russ respected Magnus....

Russ respected the one eyed mutant warcaster a lot! Oh wait...

Jokes aside, I thought I had read in some of the HH novels that Sanguinus was giving some counsel to Horus when their legions were fighting side by side. I'ts beena while since I read an HH novel though so I might be wrong.

They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Serder wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
That does seem to ring a bell somewhere, and from the first few books in the series it certainly seems as though Horus respects Sanguinius' leadership skills at least more than the other Primarchs, at one point even stating that he (Sanguinius) should have been Warmaster.

There's a difference between that respect and Sanguinius being better in cc than Russ though. Again, I can see Russ doing more damage to Horus regardless of whether there's banter beforehand.
I could even see Russ holding his temper in check and wait for the Emp to arrive before going in the throne room together (would tactically be a good decision...).

I can't see Russ defeating corrupted Horus mano a mano.

not a single primarch could've done it. IIRC, sanguinus kills himself (figuratively, because he knwe that if he engaged Horus, he was going to get killed) to wound Horus so that the Emperor could win. That means that not wounded Horus was a match for the Emperor in Sanguinus visions and the emperor sent Russ flying with a back hand slap when they first met...

He was drunk,when he fought the Emp:-)and I don't buy that chink in a armor thingy - it's just silly - Pious or xxx Custodian sounds much more real....

besides that's very much questions emperor's omnipotence and his love for the Horus

 DarthMarko wrote:
Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....

Where did you hear/read this?

And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.

As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....

Where did you hear/read this?

And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.

As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.

That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...

 DarthMarko wrote:


They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)

I havent read the codex, so i cannot comment on that and I am not subbed to WD (I prefer investing in models than in a subscription)

But, I recall in Prospero Burns, Russ gives multiple chance to Magnus to surrender. Once the beast is unleached, though he and his legion looks like savage, they do things with surgical precisions. The example of the company who attacked a Xenos base and, while the euipment was rendred useless by eh wolves, everything was still scalvagable by the Mechanicum.

Also, if Russ was souch a mindless incontrolalble beast, he would not have been the one charged of security during Magnus trial since he would be too unpreditable if something went wrong (aka Magnus getting very very angry).

So again, I think the HH wolves were more of a tactical strike then Angron's berserkers (forgot his Legion's name). They would go in, do the job, enjoy the fight and challenge since they are primarily warriors but not overdo it. They made sure the job was done, but they never overdid it. They just didn,t leave anything to chance.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....

Where did you hear/read this?

And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.

As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.

That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...

I thought I read in one fo the books that Russ managed to win a sparring match versus Horus... Or I might mix him with another primarch that won a match vs Horus ( I know one did)

 DarthMarko wrote:
That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...

Is there any particular reason that you did not answer my question?

As it stands, the only Primarch to make Horus his nancy is Lorgar, who did so psychically.

 DarthMarko wrote:
but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)

It can be both.
Russ is still very much portrayed as cunning and incredibly loyal, whilst we have nothing to suggest he wasn't close to the Emperor IMHO. Russ is far more than a juggernaut and executioner; these are images that he/the Wolves want you to believe.
He's still an open book, but I'm of the belief he's willing to be anything the Emperor needs him to be; meaning he'll often act like a juggernaut or executioner but is actually cunning, jovial and self-aware beneath the surface, much like the modern Space Wolves Chapter.


As far as Russ vs. Horus, I can see no reason to believe he'd fare any better than Sanguinius.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...

Is there any particular reason that you did not answer my question?

As it stands, the only Primarch to make Horus his nancy is Lorgar, who did so psychically.

O that it's in the old index astartes(I'm older than you.yeah) I can't say for sure but I'll bet my ayes that I've read it... If I remember right, there was a story about Russ and Horus sparring , Russ got pissed off and pommel him to the ground and the big E had to rip him off of Horus...
I'll try to dig the whole story...

 DarthMarko wrote:


They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)

That's easy; the BL authors writing about the Wolves didn't like them very much. I recall Dan Abnett, at least, stating as much outright. Missed opportunity there, I think.

Bran Dawri wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:


They were arguing always over tactical deployment (which is normaly among demigods) - but one thing bugs me about Russ
codex-index and WD Russ is noble,cunning and very close to the Emperor (when he came to the terra Emp gave him a vision(WD))
books - Russ is juggernaut who will only stop when there's no one to kill - doesn't think just acts (similar to Angron)

That's easy; the BL authors writing about the Wolves didn't like them very much. I recall Dan Abnett, at least, stating as much outright. Missed opportunity there, I think.

But he later became a fan:-)He even uses small axe when he writes...
Here is a mild version of Russ attacking Horus from "Wolf's honor" (old one says he mauled him on the floor when Emperor stepped)

Even if Russ got knocked out again:-) Who in the Pete sake had the balls to straight punch the Emperor

 DarthMarko wrote:
O that it's in the old index astartes

No it isn't.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
O that it's in the old index astartes

No it isn't.

Ok if you say so - I'm not gonna feed your SW hate - you don't even know 1/32 stories from the WD,so you are not relevant to this thread, now start another hate post or go weeping...

I asked you where you read that, and you haven't provided any evidence of your claim, which is in fact somewhat relevant to this thread.

I've read Index Astartes, and Horus vs. Russ is never brought up. Not once.

It's in IA, dude. Check article 3.

I don't think that Leman Russ would fair any better than Sanguinus in the battle versus Horus. We can go ahead and look at his closest battle to fighting Empowered Horus which would be fighting Magnus on Prospero. While Leman Russ was victorious over Magnus, the battle was a raging brawl and not one sided at all. Magnus wasn't even a CC monster and was able to stand up to Leman Russ in CC decently enough, and that is only with one Chaos God at his side (that he didn't even fully embrace at that point). If we take that in context, than compare that Horus was not only more skilled in CC than Magnus but he was essentially four times more powerful (all 4 Gods) AND fully embracing his powers....I can't see Leman Russ standing much of a real chance.

Now here is where I feel Leman Russ might have even done worse. While the battle might have, or almost surely would have lasted longer and been more of a brawl than a duel I'm not sure if Leman Russ is self-less enough to do what Sanguinus did. I see Sanguinus as giving his life selflessly to create a weakness that could be exploited by the Emperor. One thing we do know about Leman Russ is that he was proud like all the other Space Wolves. I do not know if he would have come to such a conclusion, I think he would have fought with everything he had rather than make any move that would ensure utter defeat on his part. I think Sanguinus was able to see the bigger picture and act on that, where as Leman Russ may have been able to see it but would not have acted on it...convincing himself that he could best the war master without sacrificing himself needlessly or seeing such an act as dishonoring himself and his pride.

Can someone please explain to me how the hell "chink in the armor" can affect a psykic blow from a most powerful being in the universe....? Did Horus removed his helmet to see the scratch and then the Emp puffed him in the head?
Besides that puts a whole different perspective on the fight,meaning that Emp wanted Horus dead,but couldn't kill him....not to mention whole Emp loved Horus story + Pious and random Custodian - BL writers need to decide well in the incoming battle what they will write...

I think it was a physical psychic attack that went through the armor chink. Sort of like The Blood Lance power from the BA codex

 Serder wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Bare in mind he did' beat him in sparing....so he knows little more of him then Sang....

Where did you hear/read this?

And Leman Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did. No Primarch can touch Chaos Horus in power.

As for there being no evidence that says Sanguinius could be better than Leman Russ, it is the opinion of Corax that Sanguinius is the only Primarch that may have a chance with Angron in martial combat, along with Horus.

That is one liner, from one book based on the one primarch opinion - so do the math...

I thought I read in one fo the books that Russ managed to win a sparring match versus Horus... Or I might mix him with another primarch that won a match vs Horus ( I know one did)

The Emperor's Chief Custodian managed to beat Horus in a sparring match, perhaps you are confusing him with Russ, or perhaps Horus is just being used to prove how badass everyone is.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think it was a physical psychic attack that went through the armor chink. Sort of like The Blood Lance power from the BA codex

Hm, that sounds ok then...but still puts a question mark on whole Emp holding back thing...

 DarthMarko wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how the hell "chink in the armor" can affect a psykic blow from a most powerful being in the universe....? Did Horus removed his helmet to see the scratch and then the Emp puffed him in the head?
Besides that puts a whole different perspective on the fight,meaning that Emp wanted Horus dead,but couldn't kill him....not to mention whole Emp loved Horus story + Pious and random Custodian - BL writers need to decide well in the incoming battle what they will write...

Its a popular myth that Blood Angel supporters (in fluff) like to tell themselves so that Sanguinius death wasnt in vain. It doesnt make sense though.

The Emperor was more than a match for Horus but he PURPOSELY HELD BACK because he didnt want to hurt his favorite son. This is made CLEAR in the fluff. Horus had no so limit on him and went all out. After Ollanius Pious/IF Terminator/Custodian dies, the Emperor sees that there is no way to save Horus and simply uses his mind to literally rip the Chaos gods out of Horus. This is done with his mind, a piece of terminator armor isnt going to stop the Emperor from doing this.


Sanguinius death was a tragedy that was unavoidable, it was not a honorable sacrifice to save the day because he failed to accomplish anything that would do any real good in the fight.

^Not so much. Horus' armor was blessed by the Dark Gods. These blessings included anti-magic wards. So if those wards werent broken by say, a chink caused by a flying golden vampire angel demi-god, then it is possible that the attack could have been repelled and Horus could be swinging his mace like a happy little child in a china shop

The chink in the armor thing has never made any sense to me simply because Horus is never depicted as wearing a helmet. Who needs to focus their attacks on a damaged section of armor when the guy's entire head is exposed?

In regards to Russ beating Horus in a duel, I really think this was simply a fan statement that has just built into "fact". I've seen it mentioned many times with multiple variations, and all anyone has ever been able to cite as a source is "an old White Dwarf". Until someone actually gives me an issue #, I call fake.

Sanguinius put a chink in his plot armor, that make more sense?

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Sanguinius put a chink in his plot armor, that make more sense?

Yep :-)

Always glad to help with my well thought out and reasonable points

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Always glad to help with my well thought out and reasonable points

Hats down to you sir...

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
^Not so much. Horus' armor was blessed by the Dark Gods. These blessings included anti-magic wards. So if those wards werent broken by say, a chink caused by a flying golden vampire angel demi-god, then it is possible that the attack could have been repelled and Horus could be swinging his mace like a happy little child in a china shop

If this anti-psyker ward is so powerful that it can prevent the most powerful psyker there is (a being who gives the Chaos gods pause) from standing up to Horus, a small little crack in the armor isnt going to effect the anti-pskyer ward effectiveness.

The fluff has made it clear, the Emperor could EASILY have taken Horus on. It is written in that WD article way back that the Emperor couldnt bring himself to fight Horus at all, all the Emperor was doing was being defensive. Once the Emperor decides to go all out, he simply does it without any issue. There is no mention anyway that "Because of Sanguinius scratched the paint on Horus' armor, the special anti-psyker wards completely failed to operate when the Emperor decided to use his psyker powers."



I just always considered this idea that Sanguinis was the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus because of a single lucky blow kind of dumb. Besides, how would anyone even know that he did it? The only people who believe it are people who worship the man (in fluff) but they would have no way of knowing if that is true sense the only living witness of the battle was the Emperor and he never said anything about that sense even he didnt know about it

I do agree with Galdos - this is BA point of view and I don't think IoM shares the same opinion... there are to much "if" - if that was true notion...

besides maybe he did bent Lupercals armor - but in the end didn't matter...

We need something to hold onto, we're a bunch of bloody edwards in power armor. Let us have our moment

Buttons wrote:

The Emperor's Chief Custodian managed to beat Horus in a sparring match, perhaps you are confusing him with Russ, or perhaps Horus is just being used to prove how badass everyone is.

I have never found the source of this and people who have posted this have never been able to provide it either. Can you Buttons?

 Galdos wrote:
I just always considered this idea that Sanguinis was the only reason the Emperor was able to defeat Horus because of a single lucky blow kind of dumb. Besides, how would anyone even know that he did it? The only people who believe it are people who worship the man (in fluff) but they would have no way of knowing if that is true sense the only living witness of the battle was the Emperor and he never said anything about that sense even he didnt know about it

It's clearly not the only reason, but it seems to have been the opening or the weakness that the Emperor used to strike the killing blow.

Whether or not it is an actual chink in Horus armour or a break in his mental fortitude I am not sure, personally I think it bought up that last bit of humanity in him which held the Chaos Gods back or gave him that moment of clarity at what his father must do.

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
I don't think that Leman Russ would fair any better than Sanguinus in the battle versus Horus. We can go ahead and look at his closest battle to fighting Empowered Horus which would be fighting Magnus on Prospero. While Leman Russ was victorious over Magnus, the battle was a raging brawl and not one sided at all. Magnus wasn't even a CC monster and was able to stand up to Leman Russ in CC decently enough, and that is only with one Chaos God at his side (that he didn't even fully embrace at that point). If we take that in context, than compare that Horus was not only more skilled in CC than Magnus but he was essentially four times more powerful (all 4 Gods) AND fully embracing his powers....I can't see Leman Russ standing much of a real chance.

I don't think anyone's claiming Russ could singlehandedly defeat corrupted Horus.
I know I've repeatedly stated that this match goes to Horus in a one-on-one.
As for the Russ vs Magnus battle, I do believe that a large part of Magnus holding his own was due to his psychic powers -if not it's just really bad writing (a common fault in BL writing, sadly).

@BRAN DAWRI




Russ shruged fat bastards most powerful Tzeenches imbued psykic attack...and bend him over the knee...
No matter which perspective you choose (and codex or book view ) - end result is the same = red dude in the wheelchair

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I am not sure, personally I think it bought up that last bit of humanity in him which held the Chaos Gods back or gave him that moment of clarity at what his father must do.

That would actually be okay in my eyes. Because than it would be Horus who is fighting to redeem himself. It doesnt really allign with the WD version of the story but thats okay because it actually tells a good story. Horus is disgusted at what he became and as the Emperor launches his last attack, the good part of Horus reacts to help the attack succed by slowing his body reflexes down or something.

That works in my eyes, the BA thing doesnt

 Galdos wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I am not sure, personally I think it bought up that last bit of humanity in him which held the Chaos Gods back or gave him that moment of clarity at what his father must do.

That would actually be okay in my eyes. Because than it would be Horus who is fighting to redeem himself. It doesnt really allign with the WD version of the story but thats okay because it actually tells a good story. Horus is disgusted at what he became and as the Emperor launches his last attack, the good part of Horus reacts to help the attack succed by slowing his body reflexes down or something.

That works in my eyes, the BA thing doesnt

But what if it was the death of his best friend at his own hand that is the catalyst, the realisation of the betrayal that causes his humanity to stir. There might still be love there and it might be that love that drives Horus to try and bring Sanguinius under his banner before he murders him.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how the hell "chink in the armor" can affect a psykic blow from a most powerful being in the universe....?

It could be metaphorical. He may have lowered or otherwise deflected some of Horus' Psychic Defense with his death. If Sanguinius can feel when his sons die due to their connection (and vice versa), perhaps the same is true with Sanguinius and his brother primarchs. Doubly so if that brother primarch is the one that killed him.

Just a thought. Not one I put much stock in, though.

Not a chance in hell.

Also, no one has ever been able to provide a source for this supposed sparring match.

 Omegus wrote:
Not a chance in hell.

Hi friend !!! I was just expecting you to tell me how Russ would rip Horus head off and you disapoint me like this..Next I'll think that you don't like the SW at all:-):-)

 Galdos wrote:

Its a popular myth that Blood Angel supporters (in fluff) like to tell themselves so that Sanguinius death wasnt in vain. It doesnt make sense though.

Well, Sanguinius himself pretty much says the same thing from his vision of the future.

The chink in the armor makes perfect sense if you consider the armor to be warded against psychic powers. Think of a warding circle, or hexagrammic wards, which if disturbed/interrupted, lose their efficacy.

I see no reason to believe Russ would have had any more chance of doing damage to Horus. I'll go against the grain and say that Russ would have done worse. I have no evidence to support this of course, but it's just an opinion.

 Ignatius wrote:
I see no reason to believe Russ would have had any more chance of doing damage to Horus. I'll go against the grain and say that Russ would have done worse. I have no evidence to support this of course, but it's just an opinion.

I agree. Minus that he'd probably show less remorse/restraint than Sanguinius (or the Emperor).

The question is not just Martial Prowess, but also outsmarting whom you fight. In this case Horus was an exceptional Fighter even before his fall to Chaos, so with this in mind he was devastating after he sided with Chaos. Russ was also an exceptional fighter with great martial pride and was also very tough aswell. He also had cunning and was not as stupid or reckless as people are led to belive. Sang sacrificed himself so the Emperor could defeat him. Russ wouldnt have done that as his martial pride would have taken over and he would've fought him to the death. Russ would've lost but I belive he would've lasted longer albeit he would not have beaten him though, as Horus had far too much power at this point and only the Might of the Emperor could ever have had a chance in winning.

Why would he last longer than Sanguinius? Other than the fact that you play Space Wolves?

For that matter, how would Russ fare against Ka'Bandha?

 Omegus wrote:
Why would he last longer than Sanguinius? Other than the fact that you play Space Wolves?

For that matter, how would Russ fare against Ka'Bandha?

That point never comes up for some reason

 Omegus wrote:
Why would he last longer than Sanguinius? Other than the fact that you play Space Wolves?

For that matter, how would Russ fare against Ka'Bandha?

Russes jimmies would be thoroughly rustled if he went up against KB. Even if on the ground he had a fraction of a chance, which he would, the guy fought like a maniac, Ka could jump up into the sky at any time he wanted and be totally fine

Let it be known that, as Pilau Rice said, Valdor beating Horus in a duel also has never been proven, only claimed.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Russ shruged fat bastards most powerful Tzeenches imbued psykic attack...and bend him over the knee...
No matter which perspective you choose (and codex or book view ) - end result is the same = red dude in the wheelchair

I like how you use the outdated, legend-based Index Astartes description of the fight, rather than the book one, where Magnus spends most of his fight with the upper hand Russ and the hit to the eye was the result of Russ flailing blindly. Oh, and you ignore how Magnus was also diverting his psychic power towards destroying the surface of Prospero and devastating the Space Wolves legion.

Having a fist driven through your heart, being impaled by a psychic blade, being scalded by Warpfire, and generally battered bloody does not equate to shrugging off.

Also, let it be known that I personally think Leman Russ has a decent chance of taking Ka'Bhanda. Lorgar beat An'ggrath after all.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Let it be known that, as Pilau Rice said, Valdor beating Horus in a duel also has never been proven, only claimed.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Russ shruged fat bastards most powerful Tzeenches imbued psykic attack...and bend him over the knee...
No matter which perspective you choose (and codex or book view ) - end result is the same = red dude in the wheelchair

I like how you use the outdated, legend-based Index Astartes description of the fight, rather than the book one, where Magnus spends most of his fight with the upper hand Russ and the hit to the eye was the result of Russ flailing blindly. Oh, and you ignore how Magnus was also diverting his psychic power towards destroying the surface of Prospero and devastating the Space Wolves legion.

Having a fist driven through your heart, being impaled by a psychic blade, being scalded by Warpfire, and generally battered bloody does not equate to shrugging off.

Also, let it be known that I personally think Leman Russ has a decent chance of taking Ka'Bhanda. Lorgar beat An'ggrath after all.

You also forgot the two enormous thunderwolves that Russ had helping him that got punted into the next county. Anyway, it's pointless to argue with the self-admitted troll. He makes inflammatory remarks like that, and when countered, immediately falls back on the "oh ur a fanboi! i is older and has read moar books then you! i keep citing old WD index astartes articles because I don't realize they are all online and can be double checked and my claims refuted!" line. Seriously, don't bother.

As for Lorgar, considering he impressed even Angron with his new-found martial prowess, and he is the second-strongest psyker among the Primarchs, I would say a fight between him and Russ would be practically even money, with the edge going to Russ due to experience.

 Omegus wrote:

As for Lorgar, considering he impressed even Angron with his new-found martial prowess,

Not to side-bar, what what book was this?

Butcher's Nails. In the same book, Lorgar also ruminates on Angron's fate and catches a glimpse of what he will become.

Aurelian.

Lorgar beat the ever-loving gak out of Fulgrim.

Well, that one doesn't really count because it's Daemon Fulgrim.

Lorgar auto-wins against Daemons even more than Lord Draigo.

Psychically you might be right, but why would he auto win against them in terms of beating the crap out of them with his mace?

Lorgar's exposure to the Eye/his favored status among the Powers/the arcane lore they funneled into his mind during his pilgrimage seem to give him a certain influence over daemons. Think evil cleric dominating undead.

Beating him with a mace shouldn't have accomplished much, Fulgrim suffered far worse from his own Legion and couldn't care less. Yet the daemon positively cowered and sniveled in front of Lorgar, and begged him to recognize their kinship.

only reason Russ was able to defeat Magnus was because he was cowardly hiding behind sisters of silence all the time, thus forcing him into 1on1 brawl, which was doggies turf, if Magnus could use all his warp powers on him, Russ would be running with tail between his legs in no time

The Sisters were either mostly dead or otherwise preoccupied, since they didn't seem to have much effect (or any) on Magnus' power. The Warp was spilling over Prospero, and Tzeench himself is present. Russ has his own anti-psyker juju anyway.

The rank-and-file Wolves, though, we're losing extremely badly before the Sisters got involved.

I think first and foremost, the idea that the Emperor loves some primarchs more than others is hilariously stupid and i would like a reference on this one.

next, Russ was a savage child and refussed to accept the emperor at first but his tenacity turned sour and he tricked the emperor into even thinking he wasn't his son until he fought with a gambit of pretending to be drunk and suddenly exploding into a fury. I think this similar tactic would have worked on Horus to a degree Sang would have spoke of honor duty and betrayal. I feel like Russ would have started fighting earlier but he would have pretended to be beaten and unleashed a 2nd wind. Ultimately Russ ... or ANY primarch for that matter couldn't have been horus... why? Plot

BUT I think Russ would have given him a run for his money and fought much harder than i can envision the lofy angel man. Again the result would have been the same but GW choose to make sang murdered because not much more speaks of good vs evil when angelmen are dead.

These are glaring generalization but probably true regardless

Flare or Fury take you pick of primarch.

sidcom wrote:
only reason Russ was able to defeat Magnus was because he was cowardly hiding behind sisters of silence all the time, thus forcing him into 1on1 brawl, which was doggies turf, if Magnus could use all his warp powers on him, Russ would be running with tail between his legs in no time

Magnus seems largely immune to the effects Blanks have on normal psykers.

Even that huge ass mountain that was basically a giant Warp deadzone could not block Magnus's power.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
I think first and foremost, the idea that the Emperor loves some primarchs more than others is hilariously stupid and i would like a reference on this one.

next, Russ was a savage child and refussed to accept the emperor at first but his tenacity turned sour and he tricked the emperor into even thinking he wasn't his son until he fought with a gambit of pretending to be drunk and suddenly exploding into a fury. I think this similar tactic would have worked on Horus to a degree Sang would have spoke of honor duty and betrayal. I feel like Russ would have started fighting earlier but he would have pretended to be beaten and unleashed a 2nd wind. Ultimately Russ ... or ANY primarch for that matter couldn't have been horus... why? Plot

BUT I think Russ would have given him a run for his money and fought much harder than i can envision the lofy angel man. Again the result would have been the same but GW choose to make sang murdered because not much more speaks of good vs evil when angelmen are dead.

These are glaring generalization but probably true regardless

Flare or Fury take you pick of primarch.

That is my point of the thread - Russ had some kind of dirty cunning (that's why I love him some much) and he could go against any primarch and use it...
It's even stated in TS on Nikea - While Russ was always searching weakness, Sang was always searching for a strength (that's why Sang is good guy and Russ was executioner),I love Sang but he was just to good for 30k...

P.S. Ty you for Intelligent reply

Russ was not the only Primarch to not accept the Emperor when they first met him. Vulkan, Mortarion and Angron all railed against the Emperor before they bowed to him.

That tactic would have had no effect on Horus. Horus knew his brothers better than any others and he too possessed a natural cunning. Who was it that duped Russ into attacking the Thousand Sons with such ferocity.

Sanguinius had the distinct advantage of being able to fly, the images we have from The Outcast Dead and Fear to Tread seem to show him darting about. If he had met Horus head on the fight would have been over quicker, Horus was a monster at this time.

Russ did not exactly find Magnus a push over on Prospero and by the time Horus and Russ would have met, Horus would have transcended the power of Magnus.

Okay, so we've discussed Sang Vs Russ... But you're all forgetting who Horus is.... He was THE single most trusted and powerful marine theEmporer created, thus explaining how the Heresy was as effective as it was. Horus would have gone toe to toe with any Loyalist Primarch and the outcomewould hae been the same. Mabe if Russ and Sang had both engaged Horus.... And also another factor to consider is that Horus was imbued with the Dark Powers of the Chaos Gods, who each united behind Horus, an Emporer/Saint is powerful... But a God wil outmatch him any day of the week.... And so ends my input. I hope it hs balanced out the argument slightly.

Dave

I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

Sanguinius was more skilled then Russ. Sure, Russ is a drunken space-viking that goes really angry, but he was less agile.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

Sanguinius was more skilled then Russ. Sure, Russ is a drunken space-viking that goes really angry, but he was less agile.

This is cannon, it was said that Horus and Sangy were the only two primarchs who could beat Angron one on one

Considering the grand scale of everything in 40K, I'm sure he would have plenty of space to use his wings, it just wouldn't matter.

Anyway, from the HH novels, Russ isn't shown to be an amazing 1v1 combatant. He is a cunning and ferocious warrior, but when other Primarchs speak of the best among them, his name doesn't really come up. If we think back, he fought the Lion to a stand-still, and the Lion was punked by Curze. Curze was more or less on the level of Corax, who was terrified to death of Angron, and felt only Sanguinius and Horus would stand a chance against him.

After all, Russ struggled against Magnus, who was just a big pansy after all, right?

I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think thats been the general agreement. Horus could fight and win against anything in the galaxy bar the Emperor at the peak of his powers

Yep but I compare Sang because he wasn't dirty enough to fight Mr Devil Himself and like Mek said - Bl or GW showed what they think of angels by making a short work of him..Sad but thats 30k,btw I never once said Horus wouldn't win,just that Russ would be a lot tougher to chew and beloved Sanguinius couldn't fly much on a space ship....

Sanguinius was more skilled then Russ. Sure, Russ is a drunken space-viking that goes really angry, but he was less agile.

This is cannon, it was said that Horus and Sangy were the only two primarchs who could beat Angron one on one

If you are referring to the musings of Corax in Ravens Flight then he changes his tune in Deliverance Lost, and that's all it is in Ravens Flight, a musing. Vulkan might not agree, or Dorn might have a different opinion.

With the Primarhs there is no definitive clear winner, one is not better than the other. But Horus at end of the Heresy before he fought the Emperor was the most powerful being in existence, behind or equal to the Emperor. We do not know how powerful Horus becomes in the Heresy series but from what we do have, we now he is a beast.

If the Horus armour in the new Imperial Armour Heresy book is anything to go by

EDIT: Removed image and amended sentence

The Emperors psychic powers wouldn't have done much good and this to me is a good indication that Sanguinius sacrifice did achieve something and there was a chink made in Horus Armour.

 Omegus wrote:
Considering the grand scale of everything in 40K, I'm sure he would have plenty of space to use his wings, it just wouldn't matter.

He's able to keep out of Horus reach, it's when Horus is able to lay hands on Sanguinius and chokes him to death that he has a problem, being his death.

 Omegus wrote:
After all, Russ struggled against Magnus, who was just a big pansy after all, right?

A point I also made earlier.

 Omegus wrote:
Considering the grand scale of everything in 40K, I'm sure he would have plenty of space to use his wings, it just wouldn't matter.

Anyway, from the HH novels, Russ isn't shown to be an amazing 1v1 combatant. He is a cunning and ferocious warrior, but when other Primarchs speak of the best among them, his name doesn't really come up. If we think back, he fought the Lion to a stand-still, and the Lion was punked by Curze. Curze was more or less on the level of Corax, who was terrified to death of Angron, and felt only Sanguinius and Horus would stand a chance against him.

After all, Russ struggled against Magnus, who was just a big pansy after all, right?

Magnus wasn't pansy, not at all - pit Angron against him -strange but I think Magnus would kill him ...Why? IMHO Angron would go TO MUCH bezerk ,while Magnus would stay cool and smart...
with primarchs there isn't A>B>C - A>C - just like ADB said on his blog...Sanguinius is more Agile but Russ is more tougher so it's very depends on other factors (fear,rage, fighting arena,motive etc.) There are different RPG elements on every primarch....so it really depends...


Pilau Rice you read my mind second time...

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

The thing is, if it were the BA and Sanguinius who were sent after Magnus, the burning of Prospero would have never happened. The Blood Angels wouldn't roll up on an undefended planet belonging to their brothers, and then just start exterminating every living thing in sight. Even if Horus gave the kill order, Sanguinius would still try to talk to Magnus and get him to come back willingly.

If they were to fight, I agree, Sanguinius would probably win, but it depends on just how resistant Russ really was to psychic powers. If it was a significant level of resistance, without that additional layer of protection, Sanguinius could very well find himself plucked.

Pilau Rice wrote:
The Emperors psychic powers wouldn't have done much good and this to me is a good indication that Sanguinius sacrifice did achieve something and there was a chink made in Horus Armour.

Exactly, the whole "disrupting the hexagrammic wards/protective runes/whatever" thing I mentioned earlier.

Well it isn't just "disrupting the hexagrammic wards" (it's just silly for me),it's like putting a shade on whole Emperor loved Horus thingy and his psykic might...

btw I' dont know why are people using that one liner rant from Corax to compare primarchs...Like Rice said some Primarchs would have different opinion...

 Omegus wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

The thing is, if it were the BA and Sanguinius who were sent after Magnus, the burning of Prospero would have never happened. The Blood Angels wouldn't roll up on an undefended planet belonging to their brothers, and then just start exterminating every living thing in sight. Even if Horus gave the kill order, Sanguinius would still try to talk to Magnus and get him to come back willingly.

If they were to fight, I agree, Sanguinius would probably win, but it depends on just how resistant Russ really was to psychic powers. If it was a significant level of resistance, without that additional layer of protection, Sanguinius could very well find himself plucked.

I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

DarthMarko wrote:
and sang had 3 major fights - first he lost, second he won, and the third he lost..so I don't think he is the best fighter - Fulgrim would make him a new one any day of the week

He won the first fight, too, and was about to finish the daemon off, when it played the old "haha, your bestest friend and brother betrayed your darkest secret and is plotting to kill your father, neener neener!" ploy, and used the moment of shock/hesitation to unleash a pulse from the ragefire to knock Sanguinius down. In their second find, the daemon didn't have any crazy revelations/ragefires to help him out, and even though Sanguinius was wounded and had been fighting all day, the birdman stomped the the bat again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

Well, Russ had the "advantage" of having dog DNA, for whatever that's worth.

and Magnus had a Chaos God at his side - so they are even...

 Omegus wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

Well, Russ had the "advantage" of having dog DNA, for whatever that's worth.

Clearly it gives him the advantage. Tzeentch, who was fueling Magnus' already insane power, looked upon Russ and couldn't supply as much power as he would have in any normal fight. Why was this? Nobody quite knows, but it is said that through the cacophony of the Warp, the Emperor heard a voice saying "Aww look at the cutsie widdle puppy, who's such a good boy?" with no explanation.

Squig you're a funny guy...but the fact stays - Snoop vs Magnus and Tzeench - Snoop wins (and roles a fat one aftewards)

DarthMarko wrote:and Magnus had a Chaos God at his side - so they are even...

From what we see in the book, Magnus rejected Tzeench's advances (otherwise Russ and his whole Legion would be warp dust) until he spoke the final supplication that transported him and his Sons to the planet of the Sorcerers. Given the bitterness between the two brothers, I think Magnus would probably want to handle this one on his own, rather than running for help to the being he just realized set all this up. We could just as easily say Tzeench was behind the (lucky?) swing that damaged Magnus' eye, considering he orchestrated the whole thing and everything went "just as planned".

Magnus didn't step out of his tower because he suddenly felt absolved of his guilt, he stepped out seething over his brother seemingly taking such relish in destroying his beautiful world, killing all of his people, and burning every scrap of hard-earned knowledge. He is furious at the same judgmental attitude that almost saw them come to blows on Shrike, or that Sanguinius mentions in Fear to Tread.

DarthMarko wrote:Squig you're a funny guy...but the fact stays - Snoop vs Magnus and Tzeench - Snoop wins (and roles a fat one aftewards)

Snoop Dogg or Snoop Lion? If its the latter, he already had a few rolled and Magnus and Tzeench die from all the second-hand smoke.

Dave, Master of Muppets wrote:
Okay, so we've discussed Sang Vs Russ... But you're all forgetting who Horus is.... He was THE single most trusted and powerful marine theEmporer created, thus explaining how the Heresy was as effective as it was. Horus would have gone toe to toe with any Loyalist Primarch and the outcomewould hae been the same. Mabe if Russ and Sang had both engaged Horus.... And also another factor to consider is that Horus was imbued with the Dark Powers of the Chaos Gods, who each united behind Horus, an Emporer/Saint is powerful... But a God wil outmatch him any day of the week.... And so ends my input. I hope it hs balanced out the argument slightly.

Dave

Horus honestly doesn't seem to be anything special combat-wise in the HH series, psychically Lorgar, who is demonstratively inferior to Magnus, makes Horus his nancy.

But with the buff from Chaos, no Primarch can touch him, Russ goes down just as easily as Sanguinius did.

Hm I think not - (codex disagrees)IMHO first call to Tzeench was when he stepped up in slippers to face the music...anyway we can't know when he was on energy chaos drink... Accoriding to old codex I like to think he was gone to chaos moments before the title match....btw I emphasize "that's my opinion"

btw that punch in the eye could only be from cunning Russ who was always watching weaknesses like no other primarchs (according to book) - Well damn me if I say this, but pit any other primarch against Magnus (except maybe Curze or Dark Elf Fulgrim) they are toast....

He was ready to throw down with Russ on Shrike without anyone's help.

From what I can recall, the fight was basically a bunch of pyrotechnics and explosions DBZ style, with only glimpses of the combatants. From what we see, it goes down something like this:

Magnus punches Russ' breastplate into Russ' heart.
Russ shatters Magnus' arm.
Magnus creates a psionic blade and stabs Russ in the chest.
Russ cries out in pain and his two giant wolves jump on Magnus.
Magnus dispatches the wolves.
There's a flash of light and Russ cries out in pain again, but throws out a swing that catches Magnus in the eye.
Magnus reels back, regenerating his arm and eye, his psionic mantle temporarily down.
Battered Russ takes advantage of this opportunity to rush Magnus and go all Zangief on his ass.
Russ grabs his sword again to finish Magnus off, but Magnus casts his spell and dissolves.

Just like we don't know whether Magnus was sippin' on that Chaos sizzurp, we don't know whether Russ got a lucky hit in, whether it was guided by Tzeench, or whether it was intentional. The latter is certainly possible, since the "blind flailing" was seen from Ahriman's point of view, who is hardly a master of close combat to be able to judge a Primarch.

As for the codex disagreeing, we have to determine which sources we are using for our discussion. The latest codex is silent on the subject, glossing over the Wolves' role in the Horus Heresy in a few paragraphs. The 3rd edition book mentions nothing about it. I sadly don't have the 2nd edition book handy, and I vaguely remember something in the old SW Index Astartes about Magnus beseeching Tzeench for help, but he was also a real cyclops back then, too.

I have the 2nd edition Codex at home. When I get back at the end of next week I'll look it up.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I think that the SW were the perfect legion to go against the TS. They were smart and cunning, but they were also determined to fill out their job. The BA might have fought less ferociously for fear of damaging the hallowed knowledge on prospero, but the Wolves knew that it wasn't as important. That being said, Sanguinius could have beaten Magnus just as hard if not harder

The thing is, if it were the BA and Sanguinius who were sent after Magnus, the burning of Prospero would have never happened. The Blood Angels wouldn't roll up on an undefended planet belonging to their brothers, and then just start exterminating every living thing in sight. Even if Horus gave the kill order, Sanguinius would still try to talk to Magnus and get him to come back willingly.

If they were to fight, I agree, Sanguinius would probably win, but it depends on just how resistant Russ really was to psychic powers. If it was a significant level of resistance, without that additional layer of protection, Sanguinius could very well find himself plucked.

I think Sanguinius had a similar resistance to psychic powers as Russ. Something to do with each Primarch being carried by a different Chaos God. Khorne took Sangy, Khan, Lion, Dorn, Angron, Russ, and Kurze. Tzeentch took Magnus, Alpharius, Corax, Guilliman, and Lorgar. Nurgle took Mortarion, Perterabo, Ferrus Manus, and Vulkan. Slaanesh took Fulgrim and Horus. Idk if thats cannon or a fan thing, but I remember hearing about it somewhere

It's likely that all the Primarchs had some form of resistance to psychic powers, if the events in Reflection Crack'd are anything to go by a Primarch can shrug off possession pretty easily, which is no simple feat. If Horus armour is anything to go by, it's likely that, the Emperor knowing of psychic powers, had each suit of power armour with this in mind. Think of Auramagma's attack against Russ, it rebounded off his armour and burnt him to a crisp.

 Omegus wrote:

As for the codex disagreeing, we have to determine which sources we are using for our discussion. The latest codex is silent on the subject, glossing over the Wolves' role in the Horus Heresy in a few paragraphs. The 3rd edition book mentions nothing about it. I sadly don't have the 2nd edition book handy, and I vaguely remember something in the old SW Index Astartes about Magnus beseeching Tzeench for help, but he was also a real cyclops back then, too.

Well, each telling is correct i guess, from the view of a Space Wolf. If there was a Codex: Thousand Sons I'm sure the story would favour their Primarch and tell the story in a different light, much like the Index Astartes articles.

Sanguinius being less resistant to psyking?
Dude, he was an awsome psyker himself!

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's likely that all the Primarchs had some form of resistance to psychic powers, if the events in Reflection Crack'd are anything to go by a Primarch can shrug off possession pretty easily, which is no simple feat. If Horus armour is anything to go by, it's likely that, the Emperor knowing of psychic powers, had each suit of power armour with this in mind. Think of Auramagma's attack against Russ, it rebounded off his armour and burnt him to a crisp.

Every Primarch has enormous psychic potential, and similarly, a great deal of resistance to psychic powers.

Though, I wouldn't really take the abilities of Horus's armour seriously, in the context of the HH series. That fancy armour did nothing to stop Lorgar from psychically controlling him (Though, I can't recall if he was wearing his Terminator armour in Aurelian).

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's likely that all the Primarchs had some form of resistance to psychic powers, if the events in Reflection Crack'd are anything to go by a Primarch can shrug off possession pretty easily, which is no simple feat. If Horus armour is anything to go by, it's likely that, the Emperor knowing of psychic powers, had each suit of power armour with this in mind. Think of Auramagma's attack against Russ, it rebounded off his armour and burnt him to a crisp.

True enough. Then again, the Emperor knew about Chaos, too, yet chose to take no precautions. Of course, if you buy the whole idea that the Emperor struck a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs, one of the deal's stipulations could be to let the Primarchs choose their own fate. Maybe that's why the Heresy happened the way it did even though the Emperor was fully aware of that possibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Though, I wouldn't really take the abilities of Horus's armour seriously, in the context of the HH series. That fancy armour did nothing to stop Lorgar from psychically controlling him (Though, I can't recall if he was wearing his Terminator armour in Aurelian).

Unlike his Legion’s sea-green
ceramite, Horus stood clad in layered, dense armour of charcoal
black, adorned with the glaring cadmium Eye of Terra on his
breastplate. This last sigil, the symbol of his authority as master
of the Imperium’s armies, had its black core refashioned into a
slitted serpent’s pupil.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Sanguinius being less resistant to psyking?
Dude, he was an awsome psyker himself!

He had visions, not actual battle magic. Which actually probably added to the resistance, sort of a Warp callous

Sang had just gotten out of a fight with the greatest of Khornes blodthirsters. He wasn't up to a serious throwdown at that point. So I don't think it was a good test of his true combat capabilities. That being said, there was no loyalist primarch (even on there best day) that was gonna beat Thee Arch Traitor.

Russ's results wouldn't have been any better. Horus LET Sang come to him. Sang was Horus's favorite brother, one of his inner circle said that in the first or second book. More over Sang was a mutant and the 2nd most powerful psycher next to Magnus. Horus wanted him on his side, believed with the power of all the gods of chaos he could bend the mutant Sang to his will. Horus was unable to break him. I don't know if Russ could have resisted that, the price of wich was eternal, debalitating madness for all future inheritors of his gene seed.

I'd say Lorgar is probably the most powerful psyker of the Primarchs short of Magnus. Even before his psychic powers fully blossomed after his battle with Corax, he was capable of impressive feats like devouring the psychic messages sent by an Astropath and manipulating them. For his underlings to achieve the same effect in his absence, they had to regularly and ritually sacrifice many psykers.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
He had visions, not actual battle magic. Which actually probably added to the resistance, sort of a Warp callous

He wields a Force Sword, so he seems to be capable of using his psyker abilities in battle.

New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

Assuming that scenario really could ever occur (It wouldn't, Leman Russ is nothing compared to Horus with the full backing of Chaos), the Emperor proceeds to kill Leman Russ.

The Emperor has beaten him before in purely physical combat, going all-out? Lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
He had visions, not actual battle magic. Which actually probably added to the resistance, sort of a Warp callous

He wields a Force Sword, so he seems to be capable of using his psyker abilities in battle.

A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

Wolves join chaos, end of story


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

Wolves join chaos, end of story

according to the storys though Leman russ was only beaten by the emperor because Leman was drunk and stuffed from food, though it was probably just a child making excuses. All and all Leman would have been a much cooler slug-fest

 Omegus wrote:

True enough. Then again, the Emperor knew about Chaos, too, yet chose to take no precautions. Of course, if you buy the whole idea that the Emperor struck a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs, one of the deal's stipulations could be to let the Primarchs choose their own fate. Maybe that's why the Heresy happened the way it did even though the Emperor was fully aware of that possibility.

I think that this is in a way, what the chaos powers wanted. Imagine if the Primarchs had never left Terra and the Emperor had been able to mould each to his own designs, if the Primarchs were as doggedly loyal to him as the Custodian.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

according to the storys though Leman russ was only beaten by the emperor because Leman was drunk and stuffed from food, though it was probably just a child making excuses. All and all Leman would have been a much cooler slug-fest

If he was not to be given the chance, how could he prove his mettle? If all that would greet him was derision and scornful laughter. How could he welcome this warrior, so fond of his mead, as his lost child? Driven by disappointment, the wanderer called Leman Russ a drunkard and a glutton, Able to achieve nothing more than filling his face and bellowing hollow boasts.

The Wanderer is the Emperor, he derided Russ to try and get him into a fight that he could win, rather than who's the biggest pie eating booze hound.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

True enough. Then again, the Emperor knew about Chaos, too, yet chose to take no precautions. Of course, if you buy the whole idea that the Emperor struck a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs, one of the deal's stipulations could be to let the Primarchs choose their own fate. Maybe that's why the Heresy happened the way it did even though the Emperor was fully aware of that possibility.

I think that this is in a way, what the chaos powers wanted. Imagine if the Primarchs had never left Terra and the Emperor had been able to mould each to his own designs, if the Primarchs were as doggedly loyal to him as the Custodian.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

according to the storys though Leman russ was only beaten by the emperor because Leman was drunk and stuffed from food, though it was probably just a child making excuses. All and all Leman would have been a much cooler slug-fest

If he was not to be given the chance, how could he prove his mettle? If all that would greet him was derision and scornful laughter. How could he welcome this warrior, so fond of his mead, as his lost child? Driven by disappointment, the wanderer called Leman Russ a drunkard and a glutton, Able to achieve nothing more than filling his face and bellowing hollow boasts.

The Wanderer is the Emperor, he derided Russ to try and get him into a fight that he could win, rather than who's the biggest pie eating booze hound.

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

Hm - Russ going WULFEN scenario - maybe then he could rip warmasters head or do more damage...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

powerfist again...

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

If anything a pissed off Sanguinius is more deadly than a pissed off Russ. Russ is quick to anger and wears it on his sleeve, Sanguinius is a volcano, after Fear to Tread, he's totally miffed. I think as well that Angrons butchers are more ferocious than the Sons of Russ.

Your point on Russ beating Horus might be true if it was just Horus, but it isn't, it's Horus with 4 Chaos Gods at his back and lord knows what other Warp Entities wanted a piece of the action.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

If anything a pissed off Sanguinius is more deadly than a pissed off Russ. Russ is quick to anger and wears it on his sleeve, Sanguinius is a volcano, after Fear to Tread, he's totally miffed. I think as well that Angrons butchers are more ferocious than the Sons of Russ.

Your point on Russ beating Horus might be true if it was just Horus, but it isn't, it's Horus with 4 Chaos Gods at his back and lord knows what other Warp Entities wanted a piece of the action.

Well you opinion for the SW is well known so http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

exactly, yet strangely we find his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights and even then I would say they are blow for blow equals. Regardless of character flaws or backgrounds Leman was a rivaled brother to Sang and their main differences where not how well they fought but HOW they fought. Horus was suppose to be uber leet and no primarch could beat him so simply as a 1 on 1. BUT if you were to ask me who would take more with him before dying? Probably Leman because he wouldn't care if he had to kill another one of his primarch bothers if it meant the tennat he learned of Fenris; Survival. Meanwhile Sang would have been more concerned with the ramifications of killing one of the emperors favored sons and his well being.

The idea of the primarchs is great an all but someone had to loose trying to bash Leman isn't making any better of a case for him putting up as good of a fight. He was a viking while sang was a christian that is about the main difference between these two children of humanity. they acted according to their faiths persay. One would dispair at the corruption of Horus the other would worry about killing him before giving him a forethought. Neither one would have been victorious but just saying.

If anything a pissed off Sanguinius is more deadly than a pissed off Russ. Russ is quick to anger and wears it on his sleeve, Sanguinius is a volcano, after Fear to Tread, he's totally miffed. I think as well that Angrons butchers are more ferocious than the Sons of Russ.

Your point on Russ beating Horus might be true if it was just Horus, but it isn't, it's Horus with 4 Chaos Gods at his back and lord knows what other Warp Entities wanted a piece of the action.

Well you opinion for the SW is well known so http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

My opinion on the Space Wolves is no different from from that of any other Chapter or Legion and each have the same amount scrutiny applied to them. If there is evidence for or against I will use it and apply it where necessary, the events involving Leman Russ strongly suggest that he would do no better than Sanguinius did against Horus.

I actually use the full resources of material I have available to me, not just the bits that portray a Legion or Chapter at their best.

Pilau's right. He's about the most objective poster in this subforum IMHO.

Darth, you appear to be biased towards Space Wolves, whilst Omegus/Void Dragon/Tadashi are favoured towards Thousand Sons and against Space Wolves.
That's how I see it.

Personally, I'm a Space Wolves fan, but that doesn't mean I can't try and be objective and understand the opinion of others.

 Just Dave wrote:
Pilau's right. He's about the most objective poster in this subforum IMHO.

Darth, you appear to be biased towards Space Wolves, whilst Omegus/Void Dragon/Tadashi are favoured towards Thousand Sons and against Space Wolves.
That's how I see it.

Personally, I'm a Space Wolves fan, but that doesn't mean I can't try and be objective and understand the opinion of others.

No,he's OK, just somethimes I think he is too harsh with his pragmatism and somethimes likes to point something up with a negative connotation - but I do respect his opinion
- just I don't agree with him on the impartial basis - that's the problem...It's not just our beloved wolves - It's basically whole damn 40k:-) but again it's internet - people tend to disagree..

P.S. Tadashi is cool - he is a TS fan and him and me are agreeing on a regular basis...

 RedAngel wrote:
Sang had just gotten out of a fight with the greatest of Khornes blodthirsters. He wasn't up to a serious throwdown at that point. So I don't think it was a good test of his true combat capabilities. That being said, there was no loyalist primarch (even on there best day) that was gonna beat Thee Arch Traitor.

Russ's results wouldn't have been any better. Horus LET Sang come to him. Sang was Horus's favorite brother, one of his inner circle said that in the first or second book. More over Sang was a mutant and the 2nd most powerful psycher next to Magnus. Horus wanted him on his side, believed with the power of all the gods of chaos he could bend the mutant Sang to his will. Horus was unable to break him. I don't know if Russ could have resisted that, the price of wich was eternal, debalitating madness for all future inheritors of his gene seed.

None of that is true. Sanguinius' psychic powers are relatively passive, channeling energy through his sword being the extent of it. Lorgar would take the 2nd place spot.

As for Horus wanting to turn his brother, he actually actively sabotaged the plan that could have brought the entire Blood Angels Legion over to Chaos (it is hinted he did so because he did not want the competition/felt threatened by Sanguinius unlike any of his other brothers). And I think Russ would be even more unlikely to turn against the Emperor, considering he has additional DNA splicing to make him particularly loyal, and Sanguinius could be manipulated via his sentimentality (he was ready to sacrifice himself to become the Red Angel in order to save his Legion).

And that sentimentality is probably why it would have been terrible if Russ was the one to find Horus on his flagship. Sanguinius knew he was walking to his death, and concentrated on putting the chink in Horus' defenses. He sacrificed himself to give the Emperor his chance at victory. Russ, on the other hand, would not fight with such considerations in mind. He would be fighting to win, pure and simple. The battle may last longer, but the end result would be the same, except now Horus would have no weakness to exploit.

 Dakkadood wrote:
New scenario:

Full on feral Russ battered and bruised comes on top, kills Horus, Emperor arrives to find the really-savage (it was full on instinct or death in that fight) Wolf-Primarch sitting in a pool of his favorite son's blood and blames him for executing and not trying to bring back Horus from Chaos...

What happens next?

Russ isn't Wolverine, nor is he a werewolf.

...

That'd be a fight to see though - one of the cc Primarchs vs Wolverine.
Preferably from a safe distance, say, a the next continent or a geostationary orbit.
And for the title fight, Magneto vs Horus. My money's on Mags.

 Omegus wrote:

As for Horus wanting to turn his brother, he actually actively sabotaged the plan that could have brought the entire Blood Angels Legion over to Chaos (it is hinted he did so because he did not want the competition/felt threatened by Sanguinius unlike any of his other brothers). And I think Russ would be even more unlikely to turn against the Emperor, considering he has additional DNA splicing to make him particularly loyal, and Sanguinius could be manipulated via his sentimentality (he was ready to sacrifice himself to become the Red Angel in order to save his Legion).

I definitely think that this is the case at the time of Fear to Tread, but as Horus victory is slipping through his fingers at the time of the Siege of the Place, he did try to bring Sanguinius on board as a last resort, whether this is out of love for Sanguinius or fear that somehow he could be defeated by him, we don't know yet. Imagine the implications it would have had if Sanguinius had sided with Horus.

Also that point about Russ is a pretty good too.

 DarthMarko wrote:


No,he's OK, just somethimes I think he is too harsh with his pragmatism and somethimes likes to point something up with a negative connotation - but I do respect his opinion
- just I don't agree with him on the impartial basis - that's the problem...It's not just our beloved wolves - It's basically whole damn 40k:-) but again it's internet - people tend to disagree..

I might have missed your point here but the reason why I might seem critical is because the Wolves and Thousand Sons are the most talked about Legions on this forum, barring maybe the Blood Ravens.

Maybe if we talked about the Best Legions out there, the Emperors Children or the Imperial Fists, you would see a difference

Would you also have everyone agree all the time? What would the point of this forum be if we all were in accord on every subject, there would be no point to it

I think Sanguinius is 10x more emphatic and emotional than Horus so he would be a greater prize for the Chaos if he could be turned + he could probably channel more warp energy being a potent psyker...but Horus "I think" never considered Sanguinius as competition in chaos chair... Ranting of a deamon in "Fear to tread" cool Horus just replayed that he is going to kill Sang himself if he could not be turned - and he did....

There is a lot of deamon trash talk which can be looked in a dual manner - like that - when deamon presenting himself as Tzennch tells Magnus that he was a first choice for leading chaos NOT HORUS - I can agree - but also not...

 DarthMarko wrote:
I think Sanguinius is 10x more emphatic and emotional than Horus so he would be a greater prize for the Chaos if he could be turned + he could probably channel more warp energy being a potent psyker...but Horus "I think" never considered Sanguinius as competition in chaos chair... Ranting of a deamon in "Fear to tread" cool Horus just replayed that he is going to kill Sang himself if he could not be turned - and he did....

There is a lot of deamon trash talk which can be looked in a dual manner - like that - when deamon presenting himself as Tzennch tells Magnus that he was a first choice for leading chaos NOT HORUS - I can agree - but also not...

I don't think it's competition, I think it's a more mortal thing than that, jealousy. Sanguinius is everything in Horus eyes that he wants to be, he might be loved adored by countless followers but he will never be the Angel. He doesn't want someone on the Chaos Throne who he himself thinks could do the job better.

Daemons do like to trash talk

All Daemons are falsehood. They are lies given the shape of creatures by the power of Chaos. Fear the Daemons of Khorne for this reason and then fear them once more.
- Inquisitor Covenant

But Ka'bandha tells the truth to the Angel, so who's wrong, the Inquisition or the Daemon

It was not only a daemon, but Erebus also, and Horus did admit that he was right, but after all, "he's Horus, and it's his hot bodeh and he does what he want!"



Then he made him eat his parents...er, cut off his face.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

What would have been interesting to see is Russ team up with the guy that went toe to toe with him for a week, then knocked him out, and had those other-dimensional watcher hanging about. Namely Lion El'Jonson, going in with Russ against Horus would have been interesting. Just a (random) thought...

 Wight Lord wrote:
What would have been interesting to see is Russ team up with the guy that went toe to toe with him for a week, then knocked him out, and had those other-dimensional watcher hanging about. Namely Lion El'Jonson, going in with Russ against Horus would have been interesting. Just a (random) thought...

Horus wins.

No matter the Primarch, the outcome would have been the same. The whole point of the story is that the only person who is capable of defeating Horus is his father, the Emperor.

 Wight Lord wrote:
What would have been interesting to see is Russ team up with the guy that went toe to toe with him for a week, then knocked him out, and had those other-dimensional watcher hanging about. Namely Lion El'Jonson, going in with Russ against Horus would have been interesting. Just a (random) thought...

Yeah - if Horus sits and begins to laugh at Lion then he will also get sucker punched probably - because Lion don't like people laughing at him...

his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:

his children being the best and most fercious of all space marines in CC perhaps other than BA and grey knights.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

and you needed 1 time edit to write simple haha - genius


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

Trained psykers =/= offensive psykers. Its a channeling device for his energy


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 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

C'mon now. Angron is definitely more ferocious and its stated that he was the best fighter barring Horus and Maybe Sanguinius in the fluff. I would put the order as 1) Horus. 2) Sangy-Angron tie. 3) Russ. 4) Kurze

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

Trained psykers =/= offensive psykers. Its a channeling device for his energy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

C'mon now. Angron is definitely more ferocious and its stated that he was the best fighter barring Horus and Maybe Sanguinius in the fluff. I would put the order as 1) Horus. 2) Sangy-Angron tie. 3) Russ. 4) Kurze

Not in my book - people always use that one sentence from Corax as ULTIMATE fluff statment in ranking primarchs...
Now , if in the next book Dorn said that Khan or Vulkan were the best fighters - would you overrule your statment ?
Angy is to predictible for my taste (lacks cunning what Russ has) and he never fought a primarch (his equal)...for me Fulgrim was no.1 just by the facts.....

 DarthMarko wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
A force sword is an energy channel. You dont need to be able to use battle magic for that

"Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers."
- 6e rulebook, page 60

Trained psykers =/= offensive psykers. Its a channeling device for his energy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I laughed at that one, too. Angron, Sanguinius or Curze would have made Russ their little bitch.

In TS movie fantasy - maybe...and btw http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

C'mon now. Angron is definitely more ferocious and its stated that he was the best fighter barring Horus and Maybe Sanguinius in the fluff. I would put the order as 1) Horus. 2) Sangy-Angron tie. 3) Russ. 4) Kurze

Not in my book - people always use that one sentence from Corax as ULTIMATE fluff statment in ranking primarchs...
Now , if in the next book Dorn said that Khan or Vulkan were the best fighters - would you overrule your statment ?
Angy is to predictible for my taste (lacks cunning what Russ has) and he never fought a primarch (his equal)...for me Fulgrim was no.1 just by the facts.....

Fulgrim was so good due to a blade that enhanced his abilities, if you still peg that as his abilities than maybe you are right. And while you can rebuttal the fluff by saying "if the fluff contradicted itself, what would you believe than?!" but ultimately....in this regard it hasn't. The information we are given from the fluff has been stated. If you want to just pretend it didn't exist or say that it doesn't count, "well that is just your opinion man". But either way, until something else comes along it's the best indicator we have.

Codex SW 2nd Ed wrote:Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior, fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies.

It's not ignoring Corax's statement. It's recognizing that it is just the opinion of one person in universe. And one person who has a Captain from his own Legion make a bet saying that Russ will be the one to kill Horus. We also have Lorgar using Russ and Khan to threaten Angron in Butcher's Nails. Knowing full well that the SWs are weakened after Prospero.

So one person saying that only Horus and Sanguinius are the only one that can beat Angron. doesn't mean much when viewed through a wider lens.

Russ fought the Lion for a week and got knocked the feth out. Curze painted the floor with the Lion's brains after the Lion sucker-stabbed him.

Who is indulging in fantasy now?

And the Lion puts Curze in a coma their next meeting ~ Prince of Crows. Curze, is still a Primarch and don't mistake a combination of desperation and luck as a measure of the man. He was loosing that fight.

 Omegus wrote:
Curze painted the floor with the Lion's brains after the Lion sucker-stabbed him.

This being after Lion was down-right embarrassing Curze with his sword, forcing him to turn it into a brawl where he could actually do damage.

Context brah.

Curze would probably beat Russ as badly as he did Lion were it an actual fisticuffs brawl, but with actual weapons, lol.

 Omegus wrote:
Russ fought the Lion for a week and got knocked the feth out. Curze painted the floor with the Lion's brains after the Lion sucker-stabbed him.

Check your facts, Because Russ stopped fighting and started laughing after realising how stupid the fight was. Lion, being incapable of a sense of humour, then suckerpunched him. He did not knock Russ out during the fight,
Russ would make Curze his bitch, and Sanguinius too. Only primarchs who could hold a candle to Russ in cc were Horus and Angron, and Russ beat one of them in a training bout, while the other was lobotomised...

Frankly I think Leman Russ would murderstomp Konrad Curze, honestly. While Curze might hold an advantage in h2h, I doubt it would come to that, and Russ is by showings physically more dominant.

Sanguinius? Probably not. They are at least peers in h2h, only Sanguinius has some amount of psychic advantage, and is faster due to his wings.

Also, Leman Russ never beat Horus in a duel, cease this mummer's farce. That claim has been circulating Dakka and the web for ages, yet has never once been proven. Just like "Doombreed is the strongerest Daemon Prince" or the similar "Valdor beat Horus in a duel."

Sanguinius could wipe Russ. They would duel for a little, Russ would go crazy eyes, Sangy would go volcano on his ass and cut off several body parts

 Stonerhino wrote:

Codex SW 2nd Ed wrote:Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior, fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies.

It's not ignoring Corax's statement. It's recognizing that it is just the opinion of one person in universe. And one person who has a Captain from his own Legion make a bet saying that Russ will be the one to kill Horus. We also have Lorgar using Russ and Khan to threaten Angron in Butcher's Nails. Knowing full well that the SWs are weakened after Prospero.

So one person saying that only Horus and Sanguinius are the only one that can beat Angron. doesn't mean much when viewed through a wider lens.

Finally - some intelligence in the thread...again,dudes let's not stick to one opinion as ULTIMATE GUIDE in ranking primarchs

btw Dorn thought that he could put down Angron - checked Dorn > Angron
random captain said that Russ could kill Horus - checked Russ > Horus
Magnus thought that he can feth the chaos gods - cheked Magnus > Chaos Gods
just jesting,but think - like ADB said with primarchs there isn't A>B>C>D its like D>A or C>A and mentioning sucker punch from Lion its pretty low Omegus,even by your standards...

btw Russ would bite off Sanguinius wings and spit the feathers - it would be like weasel in the chicken house :-)


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Bran Dawri wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Russ fought the Lion for a week and got knocked the feth out. Curze painted the floor with the Lion's brains after the Lion sucker-stabbed him.

Check your facts, Because Russ stopped fighting and started laughing after realising how stupid the fight was. Lion, being incapable of a sense of humour, then suckerpunched him. He did not knock Russ out during the fight,
Russ would make Curze his bitch, and Sanguinius too. Only primarchs who could hold a candle to Russ in cc were Horus and Angron, and Russ beat one of them in a training bout, while the other was lobotomised...

He knows that - he is just trying to get us pissed...

It will be interesting if forgeworld go into detail on this in their new releases, Angron being granted the title The Undefeated seems fairly cool

spam deleted.
Reds8n

spam deleted.
Reds8n

well, this be a real mature conversation I've walked into.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:

Check your facts, Because Russ stopped fighting and started laughing after realising how stupid the fight was. Lion, being incapable of a sense of humour, then suckerpunched him. He did not knock Russ out during the fight

Since when does starting to laugh maniacally in a fight spells the end of the fight? He opened up, and the Lion landed an easy knockout. That's not a suckerpunch, that's being an idiot.

 DarthMarko wrote:
He knows that - he is just trying to get us pissed...

Sanguinius is one of the most highly regarded Primarchs in martial combat, you really have no basis to believe Leman Russ would easily school Sanguinius, or even beat him at all.

If you are going to childishly mock and deride anyone with an opinion that dissents from your own, why post on a board meant for discussion?

spam deleted.
Reds8n

Please don't spam the boards. Especially with juvenile rubbish.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
well, this be a real mature conversation I've walked into.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:

Check your facts, Because Russ stopped fighting and started laughing after realising how stupid the fight was. Lion, being incapable of a sense of humour, then suckerpunched him. He did not knock Russ out during the fight

Since when does starting to laugh maniacally in a fight spells the end of the fight? He opened up, and the Lion landed an easy knockout. That's not a suckerpunch, that's being an idiot.

Being an idot is unable to reckognize when someone STOPS fighting and smiles, thinking that he mocks you...
and it was brotherly brawl (non lethal) nothing else...Funny for once Russ is mature while Lion is oversensitive douchebag...

 DarthMarko wrote:

and it was brotherly brawl (non lethal) nothing else...Funny for once Russ is mature while Lion is oversensitive douchebag...

It was not a brotherly brawl, none of the instances that the Lion and Russ came to blows over were brotherly signs of affection. Sure, the end of the encounter on Dulan was a sign of, I guess, forgiveness on Russ' behalf, but you could argue as the instigator of the fight he was the over sensitive douchebag in the first instance.

From the Space Wolves description of events yeah, Russ was right to smack the Lion in the chops, from the Dark Angel telling, Russ was being a whiny girl.

:-)Yeah, but still it's a damn miracle that Russ is the one who stopped fighting and came to reason....If it was a vice-versa situation everybody would piss on Russ with ease (like calling him dirty prick or something)

 DarthMarko wrote:
:-)Yeah, but still it is a damn miracle that Russ is the one who stopped fighting and come to reason....if it was a vice versa situation everybody would piss on Russ with ease (like calling him dirty prick or something)

Language Timothy

It does seem to be a personality flaw with the Lion, that he can't judge anyone's character at all.

Also two sides of a coin Russ is fast to anger, fast to forget, Lion is slow to anger, slow to forget.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Lion is slow to anger, slow to forget.

which makes you not to mess with him - because he can hit you when you least expect and just like the guy from CSI - walk away,
btw that's why he was tactical genius...but big ego maniac and paranoid ....

I think he was a sociopath personally.

The Lion? I don't know if I'd go so far as to call him a sociopath. He's definitely the socially awkward kid in the class though.

Hmm, that'd be an interesting comparison. Which high school stereotype is each Primarch?
Horus: Best of Class, obviously
Lion: The loner. He just doesn't get people, so he'd rather be left alone.
Russ: The jock who's good at everything. Strangely, he and emo-kidm are best friends. Arrogant son of a gun though, so not everyone likes him.
Guilliman: The wannabe.
Angron: the dumb jock, who's angry at everyone else for being smarter than him.
Mortarion: The kid without a shower.
Magnus: The nerd.
Sanguinius: The pretty jock who everyone likes and is actually a genuinely nice guy.

Okay, someone else come up with the rest.

Magnus can only really be considered a "nerd" if "nerds" where you are from are both giants among men and built like trains, lol.

Leman Russ would clearly be a book-dumb jock, I mean, he perpetuates a culture that disallows writing and reading and burns libraries. Cunning, but not educated.

Also, the Lion is a disloyal, traitorous slime, lacking empathy for anyone or anything.

Bran Dawri wrote:
The Lion? I don't know if I'd go so far as to call him a sociopath. He's definitely the socially awkward kid in the class though.

Hmm, that'd be an interesting comparison. Which high school stereotype is each Primarch?
Horus: Best of Class, obviously
Lion: The loner. He just doesn't get people, so he'd rather be left alone.
Russ: The jock who's good at everything. Strangely, he and emo-kidm are best friends. Arrogant son of a gun though, so not everyone likes him.
Guilliman: The wannabe.
Angron: the dumb jock, who's angry at everyone else for being smarter than him.
Mortarion: The kid without a shower.
Magnus: The nerd.
Sanguinius: The pretty jock who everyone likes and is actually a genuinely nice guy.

Okay, someone else come up with the rest.

Hmmm, let me take a crack at it.

Horus: Best in Class
Sanguinius: The pretty jock who everyone likes and is actually a genuinely nice guy.
Magnus: The nerd.
Lion: The weird kid who takes everything to heart.
Russ: The jock who is always very intense.
Guilliman: The by the book guy who always follows the rules
Angron: The bully who is always looking for a fight.
Mortarion:
Dorn:
Kurze: The creepy guy.
Lorgar: The preachy guy.
Fulgrim: The pretty boy always needing to have the best stuff
Pertuabo:
Ferrus: The techie geek.
Vulkan: The guys who is good at shop.
Corax:
Alpharius Omegon: Twins\friends that are always pulling pranks.

These are the ones I can come up with at the moment.

Khan's the exchange student.

Primarchs 2 and 11 are the one that are always sick/not in class.

Bran Dawri wrote:
. Only primarchs who could hold a candle to Russ in cc were Horus and Angron, and Russ beat one of them in a training bout, while the other was lobotomised...

Until you can provide a reference for that duel, I label you liar and rabid fanboy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Also, the Lion is a disloyal, traitorous slime, lacking empathy for anyone or anything.

That's clearly not how he is caracterised, tho. He is an elitist, so he has plenty of empathy, just not for everyone. It might change with time, I haven't red the entire crapola that is the HH, but in the first novel in which he appears he is clearly concerned by the wellfare of his men, and of the future of his planet.

Later on, when he was contemplating siding with Guilliman, or trying to make a move for himself, he clearly stated that there would be no Empire without the Emperor at it's head. Which should be proof enough of his loyalty...

And as far as traitorous... well... He isn't a traitor, right?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Also, the Lion is a disloyal, traitorous slime, lacking empathy for anyone or anything.

That's clearly not how he is caracterised, tho. He is an elitist, so he has plenty of empathy, just not for everyone. It might change with time, I haven't red the entire crapola that is the HH, but in the first novel in which he appears he is clearly concerned by the wellfare of his men, and of the future of his planet.

Later on, when he was contemplating siding with Guilliman, or trying to make a move for himself, he clearly stated that there would be no Empire without the Emperor at it's head. Which should be proof enough of his loyalty...

And as far as traitorous... well... He isn't a traitor, right?

Dude did you read ANY "crapola" about Lion ??? Only sympathy from him is towards his legion,not the IoM...read "the Lion" and "Savage Weapons",then make assumptions....or read them again...
I kind of like it that Lion is complexed guy (like Magnus) -At least we can discuss about him (unlike Angron who is one dimensional)

 DarthMarko wrote:
Dude did you read ANY "crapola" about Lion ??? Only sympathy from him is towards his legion,not the IoM...

His Legion or his planet, which he spent his early life making a better place, not to acheive power, but to actually give a better life to his people. Yes, he doesn't care much about the rest of the universe, which is in my opinion a great character trait, since it's perfectly normal.

read "the Lion" and "Savage Weapons",then make assumptions....or read them again...
I kind of like it that Lion is complexed guy (like Magnus) -At least we can discuss about him (unlike Angron who is one dimensional)

I red Descent of Angels. In which he shows a good side of himself, especially in that conversation with Zahariel. Like I said, his character probably changed over time/when represented by different authors.

Also, you really should clean up your writing. It's really cringe-worthy right now.

First, English isn't my first language so I do apologize to the GRAMMAR POLICE...
Second, read some books before posting conclusions...

 DarthMarko wrote:
First, English isn't my first language so I do apologize to the GRAMMAR POLICE...

English isn't my primary langage either, and yet I do efforts. On top of things, it isn't so much your grammar, as it is your whole sentences that are hard to make sense of.

Second, read some books before posting conclusions...

This is your counter? I've just stated a reference to a book which illustrate how he isn't a huge douche, but actually cares about his fellows. I've even allowed the possibility that he could change character throughout the serie. Instead of trolling, you could, if you wanted to actually contribute to these threads, give references to back your own point.

I don't think that Primarchs are much different in cc abilities ... Russ is widely considered one of the best cc fighters while the Lion is considered a tactical one... still, the two proved to be equal in cc prowess... So I seriously doubt that ANY primarch could have fared better than Sang... The Corrupted Horus was simply too much a badass...

@Kovnik Obama
I did tell you,"the Lion" and "Savage weapons" - read that, it will change your perspective about him...maybe...

P.S.
I do not agee with Void_Dragon always (TS vs SW crap) but this time I share his opinion....

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
That's clearly not how he is caracterised, tho. He is an elitist, so he has plenty of empathy, just not for everyone. It might change with time, I haven't red the entire crapola that is the HH, but in the first novel in which he appears he is clearly concerned by the wellfare of his men, and of the future of his planet.

Later on, when he was contemplating siding with Guilliman, or trying to make a move for himself, he clearly stated that there would be no Empire without the Emperor at it's head. Which should be proof enough of his loyalty...

And as far as traitorous... well... He isn't a traitor, right?

Only at the end of Descent of Angels, it is made painfully clear how utterly lacking he is of empathy, when he cuts his legion in half because the others fell out of favor with him (For what reason I honestly can't say, though he also seems to dislike psykers since IIRC every Librarian was sent) and sent them back to Caliban, and beyond that, he apparently was aware that Caliban is the way it is because it houses a powerful Greater Daemon. Yet he sent those without his favor (Including Luther and protagonist Zathariel) there anyway, seemingly to die. Oh, and for someone who cared oh so much about his world and its people, he didn't do gak to stop the industrialization and soiling of it, which numerous people in his legion alone disliked.

He also began conspiring to have himself placed as the future Warmaster over anything else, the moment the Heresy began he tried to butter up Perturabo to support his bid to Warmaster with siege weapons (Only for buddy Perturabo to make him look like a colossal tool).

That isn't proof of loyalty. He just didn't believe that the Imperium would survive without the Emperor heading it. Though admittedly, if there is one other person he has loyalty to besides himself, it would be the Emperor.

That last part is suspect, and we will have to wait for the Dark Angels subplot to unfold in full to be sure on whether Jonson really was loyal to the core, or if he was just waiting to see who the victor is.

The Lion is a plotting, conniving snake, treating people as tools to be used and discarded.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Only at the end of Descent of Angels, it is made painfully clear how utterly lacking he is of empathy, when he cuts his legion in half because the others fell out of favor with him (For what reason I honestly can't say, though he also seems to dislike psykers since IIRC every Librarian was sent)

Making a reserve out of your less favored troops isn't lacking empathy, and isn't sociopathic. It's being a good general.

he apparently was aware that Caliban is the way it is because it houses a powerful Greater Daemon.

That's implied, let's remember no one knew about Chaos pre-Heresy.

Yet he sent those without his favor (Including Luther and protagonist Zathariel) there anyway, seemingly to die.

That's completely backward. He sent back his reserve to their homeworld.

Oh, and for someone who cared oh so much about his world and its people, he didn't do gak to stop the industrialization and soiling of it, which numerous people in his legion alone disliked.

Lot's of them also disliked waging a war against all the monsters, and yet it was still warranted. A lot of Calibanese (sp?) were stupidly attached to their romantic vision of a warlike life-style.

He also began conspiring to have himself placed as the future Warmaster over anything else, the moment the Heresy began he tried to butter up Perturabo to support his bid to Warmaster with siege weapons (Only for buddy Perturabo to make him look like a colossal tool).

I still don't get why it would make him a douche. He refused to acknowledge another unknown general as his superior, and decided he would be better at the job. He had ambition. In the end he was perfectly vindicated.

That isn't proof of loyalty. He just didn't believe that the Imperium would survive without the Emperor heading it. Though admittedly, if there is one other person he has loyalty to besides himself, it would be the Emperor.

And yet here you are calling him a conniving snake... In comparison to about 50% if not more of the other primarch, he was certainly a much better person than you give him credit for.

Yes, the Lion loves his planet and his legion. That's why he allowed the Imperium to turn his planet into an industrial hell-hole where natives were second-class citizens, and later bombed it into oblivion, and why he condemned his closest warriors to ignominious garrison duty after a single campaign.

The Lion acknowledges no one above himself except the Emperor, and cares only for his own aggrandizement and station. He is no traitor; if he wouldn't acknowledge Horus as the Warmaster, he wouldn't accept him as a King.

And killing that librarian just for following Emp's decree +his paranoia over his brothers (not helping iron hands,negotiating with traitors) and the whole "fallen" thingy....