He really let that happen again? And then didn't send the required notice to the copyright office until the actual trial had started?

czakk wrote:
He really sat on another letter for months? And then didn't send the required notice to the copyright office until the actual trial had started?

Yes. Yes he did. I'm sure that Mr. Moskin has some 'excuse' such as, "my dog ate it," or "aliens abducted me and I was replaced by a pod person." But regardless of the excuse, he did the EXACT thing he was already sanctioned for doing. The only salient thing that is different is that THIS registration was for a shoulder pad with an ARROW on it instead of a shoulder pad with a CROSSED ARROW on it. Big surprise the USCO felt similarly about it...Big surprise Moskin managed to somehow not tell anyone about it...

 Miguelsan wrote:

But Mr Merrel said that GW sculptors never ever need resources outside GW. They even created Tau from scratch, from their minds and stuff...

Personally, as son as he said that, I would have shown the Jury that album cover with the very Tau fire warrior looking helmet on it.

Hmmm.

Given the summary judgment on the issue (shoulder pads copyrightable), as far as the actual trial goes, the fugitive letter doesn't do much. CHS was precluded from introducing the copyright letters into evidence iirc?

----

There are some side issues, ethics for one (and the can of worms that opens as far as discovery goes) , and failure to give proper notice to the copyright office.

Double post error.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

But Mr Merrel said that GW sculptors never ever need resources outside GW. They even created Tau from scratch, from their minds and stuff...

Personally, as son as he said that, I would have shown the Jury that album cover with the very Tau fire warrior looking helmet on it.

Or any Japanese anime type cartoon/comic/manga/whatever dealing with gundam/robots/armore suit soldiers.

What album cover is that? Is it by a decent band

In the original designer notes of the Tau, they were stated to have taken inspiration from mediaeval Chinese and Japanese armour designs. The similarities are very obvious to anyone who has ever looked at samurai armour, for instance. The lamellar appearance of the armour plates. The large shoulder guard.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In the original designer notes of the Tau, they were stated to have taken inspiration from mediaeval Chinese and Japanese armour designs. The similarities are very obvious to anyone who has ever looked at samurai armour, for instance. The lamellar appearance of the armour plates. The large shoulder guard.

You mean the same design elements that Dr. Grindley mentioned in his testimony about armor in general?

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In the original designer notes of the Tau, they were stated to have taken inspiration from mediaeval Chinese and Japanese armour designs. The similarities are very obvious to anyone who has ever looked at samurai armour, for instance. The lamellar appearance of the armour plates. The large shoulder guard.

You mean the same design elements that Dr. Grindley mentioned in his testimony about armor in general?

I've been busy and haven't had a chance to read GWs latest motion in detail, but I think they try to discredit his testimony again. This is what, their fourth kick at that cat?

He may well have mentioned Japanese shoulder armour in relation to the general concept of large shoulder armours, however the Tau thing was that the designers specifically used Chinese and Japanese armours for reference material. This was discussed in the articles put out by GW when the Tau were new.

I thinkpeople don't realize that as of wright now gw has a monopoly and their way over inflated prices show that.
If chapterhouse wins then 3rd party material will come out and gw will be forced to compete for our money.
Why would I buy 5 terminators for 50, when there's an equally nice equivalent for 35 or 40.
I love how GW is saying its to protect their HIGH quality.....you know its just to protect their insane profits.

GW have a monopoly of official GW models for 40K.

There are plenty of competing models on the market if you want cheaper models.

tanker19 wrote:
I thinkpeople don't realize that as of wright now gw has a monopoly and their way over inflated prices show that.

Well, they DO have a monopoly on their game system. Which makes sense. Monopolies generally allow the producer to dictate prices to the consumer because they are the sole source of supply.

What is hilarious, and represents the ineptitude of GW in this sphere, is that even in spite of their monopoly on items within their game system, they have allowed other companies--mostly studios much, much smaller than they--to create a cottage industry supplying models that GW does not make or allow easy access to.

GW has used its monopolistic power to ... charge $0 for models/production that it decided not to make. This is just 'Derp-face'. It's like having a 10 point Terminator option in your codex as a troop choice and not taking it in any lists.

But they dont have a monopoly... There are other game companies that produce miniature based games. GW just owns the 40k Universe and that is where I think people get crossed up.

 Ammobunkerdean wrote:
But they dont have a monopoly... There are other game companies that produce miniature based games. GW just owns the 40k Universe and that is where I think people get crossed up.

Which is why people were saying that they own the monopoly on their own game .

Holy Cow! Reading the transcript!

Does Alan Merrit know what perjury is? I've talked to GW sculptors going way back to the early 90's at GW events. WAY before all this started. They were all given reference materials, medieval arms books and tons of other stuff.....He is absolutely lying his ass off.....

That level of lying in an American court room is not all that common by a corporate functionary.

There might have been some uncomfortable questions about the reference materials from the sculptors workshop that we haven't seen.

So was it meant to be this weekend that they deliberated and gave a verdict? I thought someone said there was only this week to go earlier this week. My memory may be off though.

STUCARIUS wrote:
Holy Cow! Reading the transcript!

Does Alan Merrit know what perjury is? I've talked to GW sculptors going way back to the early 90's at GW events. WAY before all this started. They were all given reference materials, medieval arms books and tons of other stuff.....He is absolutely lying his ass off.....

That level of lying in an American court room is not all that common by a corporate functionary.

I'm loving where they try to NOT admit that GW figures are multi-pose and convertable (page 425 I believe)

 judgedoug wrote:

STUCARIUS wrote:
Holy Cow! Reading the transcript!

Does Alan Merrit know what perjury is? I've talked to GW sculptors going way back to the early 90's at GW events. WAY before all this started. They were all given reference materials, medieval arms books and tons of other stuff.....He is absolutely lying his ass off.....

That level of lying in an American court room is not all that common by a corporate functionary.

I'm loving where they try to NOT admit that GW figures are multi-pose and convertable (page 425 I believe)

Tournaments don't award prizes for army appearance!

Q. Going back to -- just a second. I think we can move on.
4 You're familiar with the concept of a conversion kit in
5 the world of miniatures, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that means making changes to a miniature to be different
8 from the standard model that's sold, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in order to do that, you need to make sure that whatever
11 you're adding to it is the right size to fit, correct?
12 A. It kind of depends, but yes, I suppose.
13 Q. You talked a bit about how Warhammer 40K is played. We had
14 a little demo. It's true that one aspect of the game is
15 personalizing parts for use in the game, right?
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. And it's accurate that during competition players are
18 awarded points for the appearance of their army?
19 A. It varies from competition to competition. It's certainly
20 not a standard feature of competitions, and it's certainly not
21 universal.
22 Q. But in some competitions points are awarded for appearance?
23 A. That may very well be true. For some competitions, that is
24 one of the things that you get points for.

 Alfndrate wrote:
What album cover is that? Is it by a decent band

I've been trying to remember what the band was to post it here. You used to see it posted every now and then when someone would start on how 'original' GW is...

Monopoly is a bad word to use for this situation. The do not have a monopoly at all. What they do have is years of ingrained behavior, by causing the customer to believe that GW games cannot be played with anything, but GW official miniatures and terrain. This, as many of us know, is a falsehood. Some who did not know are now learning it as well.

GW used to enforce this with the official tournament rule of "ONLY GW MODELS". They no longer have an official tournament circuit. ALL tournaments and Cons, except Gamesday are independently run now. Most, if not all, get no prize support from GW. So GW has created a false belief, through years of dominating the hobby, that if they do not make it then you cannot use it.

Many IGuard players now use minis from another company, Many ork players now use models and bits from another company AND now that Chapterhouse has threaten GW's cash cow, SPACE MARINES, with producing LARGE amounts of bits and accessories, GW jumps up and down and throws a tantrum.

All the other stuff didn't even cause GW to flinch, but as soon as CH started producing more and more space marine stuff, GW jumped into action and now that is going to bite them in the hind end, I hope.

More variety can never be a bad thing. People do not want to sit opposite of the same army that they have and most people do not have the time or skill to convert stuff from scratch. If GW actually listened to their customer base, they would know this and act accordingly. As it is, I hope they loss this lawsuit and it causes more companies to produce more bits and accessories.

And it is laughable to hear GW employees claim that all inspiration comes from a designers head. I honestly hopes GW losses just to see some of the arrogance of that company get smacked out of them.

czakk wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

STUCARIUS wrote:
Holy Cow! Reading the transcript!

Does Alan Merrit know what perjury is? I've talked to GW sculptors going way back to the early 90's at GW events. WAY before all this started. They were all given reference materials, medieval arms books and tons of other stuff.....He is absolutely lying his ass off.....

That level of lying in an American court room is not all that common by a corporate functionary.

I'm loving where they try to NOT admit that GW figures are multi-pose and convertable (page 425 I believe)

Tournaments don't award prizes for army appearance!

Q. Going back to -- just a second. I think we can move on.
4 You're familiar with the concept of a conversion kit in
5 the world of miniatures, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that means making changes to a miniature to be different
8 from the standard model that's sold, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And in order to do that, you need to make sure that whatever
11 you're adding to it is the right size to fit, correct?
12 A. It kind of depends, but yes, I suppose.
13 Q. You talked a bit about how Warhammer 40K is played. We had
14 a little demo. It's true that one aspect of the game is
15 personalizing parts for use in the game, right?
16 A. Oh, yes.
17 Q. And it's accurate that during competition players are
18 awarded points for the appearance of their army?
19 A. It varies from competition to competition. It's certainly
20 not a standard feature of competitions, and it's certainly not
21 universal.
22 Q. But in some competitions points are awarded for appearance?
23 A. That may very well be true. For some competitions, that is
24 one of the things that you get points for.

Name a single GW official tourney that didn't have a "Best Painted" or "Best Army" category? Hell Golden Daemon is ONLY about conversions and appearance.

He said that GD is mainly about painting, not converting. He wouldn't lie under oath...

I also wonder if they dug a little bit more into this:

Now, Ms. Stevenson, as you recall, you testified that
this chart was put together at your direction by Games
Workshop's hobby team, and they painted and posed the Games
Workshop figures on the right column to look like the colors
and poses of the Chapterhouse products, is that right?
A Almost. The hobby team didn't put the chart together, but
they did build and paint the model.
Q And you said that you found this confusing when you see
them side by side like this?
A I find it compelling.
Q You said you found it confusing, correct?

I don't have any big legal insight into it, but telling the jury that you posed and painted your product to look similar to the product you think is infringing has got to have them scratching their heads a bit.

If anyone has serious beliefs GWs designers lied and has proof like a statement in WD written by that individual to the contrary... I think it'd be nice for them to post some references.

As far as monopoly goes, I think GW effectively had a monopoly and just in the narrowness of their game and setting. GW's business averages in the hundreds of millions of dollars, meanwhile until more recently the rest of the industry combined would have been less than 1/2 of that. In many teachings on the subject depending on distribution a monopoly is possible with a little as 60% of market control and that it really depends on how the dominating company carries itself... And simply GW acts like it has a monopoly.

 aka_mythos wrote:
If anyone has serious beliefs GWs designers lied and has proof like a statement in WD written by that individual to the contrary... I think it'd be nice for them to post some references.

Merritt admitted to not being a designer and that he can't actually testify that there are no outside influences ever used, just that the designers are under instructions to stick to internal sources for ideas. So I hardly see an actual lie (much less one by a designer) here, just proof that Merritt doesn't know that sometimes you need to take ideas from outside when doing things like building a new race from scratch. He comes off as out of touch with what is done with the company honestly more than anything.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
What album cover is that? Is it by a decent band

I've been trying to remember what the band was to post it here. You used to see it posted every now and then when someone would start on how 'original' GW is...

I thought it was a book cover, not an album.

Eric

 aka_mythos wrote:
If anyone has serious beliefs GWs designers lied and has proof like a statement in WD written by that individual to the contrary... I think it'd be nice for them to post some references.

As far as monopoly goes, I think GW effectively had a monopoly and just in the narrowness of their game and setting. GW's business averages in the hundreds of millions of dollars, meanwhile until more recently the rest of the industry combined would have been less than 1/2 of that. In many teachings on the subject depending on distribution a monopoly is possible with a little as 60% of market control and that it really depends on how the dominating company carries itself... And simply GW acts like it has a monopoly.

I think Monopoly is the wrong term. Market Dominance is more appropriate. Of course different jurisdictions define it in different ways and getting anyone to agree what a specific and clear definition is, very hard.

 MagickalMemories wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
What album cover is that? Is it by a decent band

I've been trying to remember what the band was to post it here. You used to see it posted every now and then when someone would start on how 'original' GW is...

I thought it was a book cover, not an album.

Eric

Is this it?



Cover art made for an Atari game called Brataccas.

That cover image was also used for an Uriah Heep album in 2001. Same year that the Tau were released.

STUCARIUS wrote:
Holy Cow! Reading the transcript!

Does Alan Merrit know what perjury is? I've talked to GW sculptors going way back to the early 90's at GW events. WAY before all this started. They were all given reference materials, medieval arms books and tons of other stuff.....He is absolutely lying his ass off.....

That level of lying in an American court room is not all that common by a corporate functionary.

To be fair.. surely this is just common sense? I'm not sure what he is trying to prove.

Well .. have to say that's my illusion of a giant of the industry shattered in Merrett. In between this and the not touching CHS miniatures (on the grounds that they are 'poisonous'), have to say he is not coming out of this very well..

So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

Personally I'm hoping for a win for GamesWorkshop. Never really been satisfied with Chapterhouse's stuff; at times the stuff I got from them felt more like something I was able to do, and thats the bottom level of amateur.

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

Personally I'm hoping for a win for GamesWorkshop. Never really been satisfied with Chapterhouse's stuff; at times the stuff I got from them felt more like something I was able to do, and thats the bottom level of amateur.

So you're hoping that GW wins not because Chapterhouse have broken a law but because you personally don't like their products?

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

Personally I'm hoping for a win for GamesWorkshop. Never really been satisfied with Chapterhouse's stuff; at times the stuff I got from them felt more like something I was able to do, and thats the bottom level of amateur.

... We are the public, if these are the pieces of the transcript that were filed, that's all we're going to get... There's not conspiracy to make GW out to be the bad guy by anyone on these boards. What we were presented with was edited down by the courts most likely.

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

Personally I'm hoping for a win for GamesWorkshop. Never really been satisfied with Chapterhouse's stuff; at times the stuff I got from them felt more like something I was able to do, and thats the bottom level of amateur.

Wait. so instead of just not buying there stuff, like a normal person would do if they dislike something. You think screw case law, GW should win anyways. Hope you never end up in front of a jury with poeple like you on it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

Personally I'm hoping for a win for GamesWorkshop. Never really been satisfied with Chapterhouse's stuff; at times the stuff I got from them felt more like something I was able to do, and thats the bottom level of amateur.

... We are the public, if these are the pieces of the transcript that were filed, that's all we're going to get... There's not conspiracy to make GW out to be the bad guy by anyone on these boards. What we were presented with was edited down by the courts most likely.

We are seeing portions of transcripts that CHS attached to a motion in order to support their argument. Definitely not the whole story, but also not doctored or edited.

czakk wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

Personally I'm hoping for a win for GamesWorkshop. Never really been satisfied with Chapterhouse's stuff; at times the stuff I got from them felt more like something I was able to do, and thats the bottom level of amateur.

... We are the public, if these are the pieces of the transcript that were filed, that's all we're going to get... There's not conspiracy to make GW out to be the bad guy by anyone on these boards. What we were presented with was edited down by the courts most likely.

We are seeing portions of transcripts that CHS attached to a motion in order to support their argument. Definitely not the whole story, but also not doctored or edited.

Wouldn't it by definition be "edited" even if that editing is done completely within the scope of what they need to for the motion?

It's edited in that they're only using pages relevant to their motion, but the content of the pages is not edited.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
So you're hoping that GW wins not because Chapterhouse have broken a law but because you personally don't like their products?

Oh no, I hope the courts rule in favor of GamesWorkshop because I do feel Chapterhouse has broken the law. I mean on their site they make no attempt to convince people that their bits and products are meant for anything but GamesWorkshop products.

I also happen to not like Chapterhouse, because the product I have gotten from them in the past has been sub par at best.

Alfndrate wrote:
... We are the public, if these are the pieces of the transcript that were filed, that's all we're going to get... There's not conspiracy to make GW out to be the bad guy by anyone on these boards. What we were presented with was edited down by the courts most likely.

My point is, who's putting them up and are they biased to one side or the other? And as you pointed out, what we have here has been edited, can you be absolutely certain that it was the courts that did that editing? Is it possible that whoever put this stuff up might not have done it?

Noir wrote:Wait. so instead of just not buying there stuff, like a normal person would do if they dislike something. You think screw case law, GW should win anyways. Hope you never end up in front of a jury with poeple like you on it.

Wow, mind putting your torch and pitchfork down or should I help you put that noose around my neck?

And nothing personal but I would rather a jury of myself than a jury of you. You and I do not know each other, but you seem to feel the need to jump down my throat and assume you know me and how I think; and while I don't know you any better I most certainly do not want to be judged by others who will make a judgment of me after all of two sentences.

darkreever wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
So you're hoping that GW wins not because Chapterhouse have broken a law but because you personally don't like their products?

Oh no, I hope the courts rule in favor of GamesWorkshop because I do feel Chapterhouse has broken the law. I mean on their site they make no attempt to convince people that their bits and products are meant for anything but GamesWorkshop products.

But, as has been pointed out many times in this thread, that isn't against the law.

Just like I can make cases to fit iPhones or ground effect kits to fit a Honda, and I can advertise either as being exactly what they're for.

darkreever wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
So you're hoping that GW wins not because Chapterhouse have broken a law but because you personally don't like their products?

Oh no, I hope the courts rule in favor of GamesWorkshop because I do feel Chapterhouse has broken the law. I mean on their site they make no attempt to convince people that their bits and products are meant for anything but GamesWorkshop products.

I also happen to not like Chapterhouse, because the product I have gotten from them in the past has been sub par at best.

While they may not make any attempt to denote that their product is for things other than GW products, they are in no way attempting to state that these are official GW products, or officially licensed GW products.

Alfndrate wrote:
... We are the public, if these are the pieces of the transcript that were filed, that's all we're going to get... There's not conspiracy to make GW out to be the bad guy by anyone on these boards. What we were presented with was edited down by the courts most likely.

My point is, who's putting them up and are they biased to one side or the other? And as you pointed out, what we have here has been edited, can you be absolutely certain that it was the courts that did that editing? Is it possible that whoever put this stuff up might not have done it?

It was pointed out a few posts above yours that I was incorrect, I recognize my failing, and will be sure to correct it.

darkreever wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:
... We are the public, if these are the pieces of the transcript that were filed, that's all we're going to get... There's not conspiracy to make GW out to be the bad guy by anyone on these boards. What we were presented with was edited down by the courts most likely.

My point is, who's putting them up and are they biased to one side or the other? And as you pointed out, what we have here has been edited, can you be absolutely certain that it was the courts that did that editing? Is it possible that whoever put this stuff up might not have done it?

the textual excerpts posted are copy-pasted from the official pdf court transcripts released by the court.

 judgedoug wrote:

darkreever wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:
... We are the public, if these are the pieces of the transcript that were filed, that's all we're going to get... There's not conspiracy to make GW out to be the bad guy by anyone on these boards. What we were presented with was edited down by the courts most likely.

My point is, who's putting them up and are they biased to one side or the other? And as you pointed out, what we have here has been edited, can you be absolutely certain that it was the courts that did that editing? Is it possible that whoever put this stuff up might not have done it?

the textual excerpts posted are copy-pasted from the official pdf court transcripts released by the court.

Like judgedoug said - these are pdfs filed with the court via the pacer system. I am paying the fee to download them and then uploading them here and at the recap site:

http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.docket.html

Czakk, you are an awesome human being for making that financial contribution out of the goodness of your heart to help all of us in the community stay educated on this proceeding.

Here are some kudos; I'm sorry their not actually worth anything.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 MagickalMemories wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
What album cover is that? Is it by a decent band

I've been trying to remember what the band was to post it here. You used to see it posted every now and then when someone would start on how 'original' GW is...

I thought it was a book cover, not an album.

Eric

Is this it?

Spoiler:

Cover art made for an Atari game called Brataccas.

Don't know. That pic is blocked from me at work. : (

Eric

czakk wrote:

Like judgedoug said - these are pdfs filed with the court via the pacer system. I am paying the fee to download them and then uploading them here and at the recap site:

http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.docket.html

Indeed as Saldiven said, thank you for the contribution in making sure these are available to all of us.

Though everyone might want to keep in mind that this thread is four to five thousand posts long; thats not exactly an easy or short slog through. Perhaps it might be a good idea for someone with the ability to do so to update the first post? That way anyone coming in can look at that and then go to the later pages and be relatively caught up. That way some of the older and more veteran members don't come down on newer ones like a hammer.

Rehosted it. My personal site so it's unlikely to be blocked.

darkreever wrote:

Oh no, I hope the courts rule in favor of GamesWorkshop because I do feel Chapterhouse has broken the law. I mean on their site they make no attempt to convince people that their bits and products are meant for anything but GamesWorkshop products.

I also happen to not like Chapterhouse, because the product I have gotten from them in the past has been sub par at best.

It seems legal (notwithstanding the result of this case) what they are doing. Boring, (not legally) derivative,seriously lacking imagination and a spark of creativity and riding the coat tails of a more successful, more imaginative and better funded company, but legal.

darkreever wrote:
Though everyone might want to keep in mind that this thread is four to five thousand posts long; thats not exactly an easy or short slog through. Perhaps it might be a good idea for someone with the ability to do so to update the first post? That way anyone coming in can look at that and then go to the later pages and be relatively caught up. That way some of the older and more veteran members don't come down on newer ones like a hammer.

Sorry, but not going to happen. The amount of information in the thread is very large; trying to create some sort of synopsis for new arrivals to the thread is more work than I care to do.

Bottom line, if you're really interested in the topic, you'll need to read the thread. Otherwise, you can wait for the verdict, which should be along soon enough.

darkreever wrote:
My point is, who's putting them up and are they biased to one side or the other? And as you pointed out, what we have here has been edited, can you be absolutely certain that it was the courts that did that editing? Is it possible that whoever put this stuff up might not have done it?

You have the same access to the materials as anyone who is posting excerpts from the filings. Rather than casting doubt on those who are posting excerpts, why not go read the material yourself? It was linked in the last page or two.

darkreever wrote:

Oh no, I hope the courts rule in favor of GamesWorkshop because I do feel Chapterhouse has broken the law. I mean on their site they make no attempt to convince people that their bits and products are meant for anything but GamesWorkshop products.

Then obviously you do not understand the law. There is no legal requirement for CHS to "convince people that their bits and products are meant for anything but Games Workshop products". None. None whatsoever....

CHS does the exact opposite of your requirement by saying that their parts ARE designed to fit GW models which, again, is perfectly legal. Also perfectly legal is making pieces to fit products made by other companies as evidenced by aftermarket car parts, phone cases and millions of other common consumer items.

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

Personally I'm hoping for a win for GamesWorkshop. Never really been satisfied with Chapterhouse's stuff; at times the stuff I got from them felt more like something I was able to do, and thats the bottom level of amateur.

Hmmm, recent registration, low post count limited to one thread, minority viewpoint that runs contrary to what the facts suggest to be the case, casts aspersions on others motives...

If it looks like a sockpuppet....

Or is this Mandlebonder?

I would disagree with both your desired outcome and the reasons why. I have two SR extension kits, 3 or 4 magnetised turrets (for SR or RB) one of their LR extra armour kits, several of the combo weapons and a handful of other bits, and can't fault any of it. Not to mention that Nick is a great chap who dealt very efficiently with issues arising from transatlantic postage.

Aside from all that, going after a company that requires the consumer to purchase your own product before what they produce is of any relevance is just lunacy. I'm just glad this is one of those cases where it looks like the letter of the law could well result in a logical and fair outcome in the main. Jury brainfart not withstanding.

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

The bits we have access to are part of CHS' request for Directed Verdict and were likely edited down by them. So naturally it's all the stuff that highlights the wost of what GW said.

czakk wrote:
I also wonder if they dug a little bit more into this:

Now, Ms. Stevenson, as you recall, you testified that
this chart was put together at your direction by Games
Workshop's hobby team, and they painted and posed the Games
Workshop figures on the right column to look like the colors
and poses of the Chapterhouse products, is that right?
A Almost. The hobby team didn't put the chart together, but
they did build and paint the model.
Q And you said that you found this confusing when you see
them side by side like this?
A I find it compelling.
Q You said you found it confusing, correct?

I don't have any big legal insight into it, but telling the jury that you posed and painted your product to look similar to the product you think is infringing has got to have them scratching their heads a bit.

I do not understand how deliberately attempting to confuse the jury by creating, for litigation, products that do not exist and which are specifically designed to COPY the opposing party's own artwork can be acceptable as evidence of trademark confusion.

'See, well, in theory, our products COULD look like this. And, well, if someone ELSE made these, just like this, and photographed them JUST LIKE THIS, and then RE-SOLD them, then someone MIGHT possibly be confused into thinking that CHS is endorsed or licensed by GW.'

How in the was that allowed into evidence?!? Appellate point number 56.

See, even if the JURY is confused by the images, that is NO PROOF AT ALL of likelihood of confusion, because the jurors, who know nothing about Games Workshop, are not the relevant market. If they were, GW would have no case at all.

Edit: In fact, if anything, it should be more relevant as evidence of GW infringing on CHS's trademarks, as GW copied artwork from the CHS website, and publicized those images in a public trial. But then again, Stevenson does say that due to the lawsuit, confusion between the two companies is not likely...wtf GW?

So are GW transcripts for Directed verdic up? And are they just as" twisted" as the Chs ones? Of course they would be as that's the whole point of them pick the bits that help you take them out of context and show the other in a bad light, that's lawyers for you.

ClockworkZion wrote:

darkreever wrote:
So these tidbits we have seen so far, has the rest been made public or is this all just cherry picked to make things look better/worse than they may actually be?

The bits we have access to are part of CHS' request for Directed Verdict and were likely edited down by them. So naturally it's all the stuff that highlights the wost of what GW said.

Not necessarily the worst, but just used to re-quote testimony to another witness or for the jury.

Skullhammer wrote:
So are GW transcripts for Directed verdic up? And are they just as" twisted" as the Chs ones? Of course they would be as that's the whole point of them pick the bits that help you take them out of context and show the other in a bad light, that's lawyers for you.

GWs motion wasn't accompanied by transcripts unfortunately.

Skullhammer wrote:
So are GW transcripts for Directed verdic up? And are they just as" twisted" as the Chs ones? Of course they would be as that's the whole point of them pick the bits that help you take them out of context and show the other in a bad light, that's lawyers for you.

GW's JMOL is what it is. There are no attached transcripts, and paltry few transcript quotes in the motion.

weeble1000 wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
So are GW transcripts for Directed verdic up? And are they just as" twisted" as the Chs ones? Of course they would be as that's the whole point of them pick the bits that help you take them out of context and show the other in a bad light, that's lawyers for you.

GW's JMOL is what it is. There are no attached transcripts, and paltry few transcript quotes in the motion.

So, is it fair to assume that this is a knee jerk reaction to CHS's JMOL, or is it common to submit them unsupported?

azreal13 wrote:
Hmmm, recent registration,

Well if you checked out my intro thread, I did say I had come here recently to get a feel for another place rather than just the one I currently inhabit.

azreal13 wrote:
low post count limited to one thread,

Actually its three, my intro thread, an army list I put up where other members of Dakka have been of some great help, and this one here where some of the semi older members have jumped down my throat for not supporting Chapterhouse. Now I know I'm new, but having to support them, or at least be anti GamesWorkshop, isn't part of the rules is it?

azreal13 wrote:
minority viewpoint that runs contrary to what the facts suggest to be the case,

Happens, we don't all agree on everything.

azreal13 wrote:
casts aspersions on others motives...

Well considering some of the semi older members, though only in this thread mind you, have assumed to know me, my intentions, and come close to putting words in my mouth, should I be thanking them?

azreal13 wrote:
If it looks like a sockpuppet....

Or is this Mandlebonder?

Seriously, your insinuating I am trolling; how am I supposed to take that? Honestly, take a step back and look at it: older members being dickish to a newer one because they have differing opinions on the outcome of Chapterhouse vs GamesWorkshop?

ClockworkZion wrote:
The bits we have access to are part of CHS' request for Directed Verdict and were likely edited down by them. So naturally it's all the stuff that highlights the wost of what GW said.

See this is what I was wondering, if Chapterhouse had a hand in getting this information made public then there is a bias to make GamesWokshop appear to be or be doing worst than they may very well be. I'd be asking the exact same thing if it appeared to be skewed in favor of GamesWorkshop.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Cover art made for an Atari game called Brataccas.

Was also the cover of the two CD set of Uriah Heep - Remasters





Image is a bit dark.



Edit: crap, ninja'd

Can one of the Lawyer's on this thread explain to me why the quote below is NOT the end of the case?

IT IS HEREBY FOUND, ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED THAT:
A. Judgment is entered for Chapterhouse and against Games Workshop on Games
Workshop’s claims of copyright infringement by the works set forth in paragraph 10, excluding
product 110 – Hell Hound. Games Workshop withdraws without prejudice its claims for
copyright infringement, trademark infringement and related claims under state law regarding
product 110, with leave to renew such claims should Chapterhouse commence marketing or sales
of such a product. Judgment is entered for Chapterhouse and against Games Workshop as to all
claims of infringement of the alleged trademarks set forth in paragraphs 12 and 13, and such
claims against Chapterhouse are dismissed with prejudice.
B. No appeal shall be taken by any party from this Partial Consent Judgment, the
right to appeal being expressly waived by all Parties.
C. Each party shall bear its own costs and attorney’s fees.
D. This final Partial Consent Judgment shall be entered hereto, forthwith, without
further notice.
Case: 1:10-cv-08103 Document #: 377 Filed: 06/04/13 Page 4 of 6 PageID #:21761
The Clerk is directed to enter this final Partial Consent Judgment forthwith.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
Dated: June 4, 2013 __________________________________
The Honorable Matthew Kennelly
United States District Judge

This is from item #377 on the case docket site.
http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.docket.html

This sounds pretty final to me, but I'm not a lawyer.

darkreever wrote:

Seriously, your insinuating I am trolling; how am I supposed to take that? Honestly, take a step back and look at it: older members being dickish to a newer one because they have differing opinions on the outcome of Chapterhouse vs GamesWorkshop?

You're supposed to take notice of the laughing emoticon and realise I was teasing.

Take your chop busting like a man noob.

Besides, you've stated your opinion in a thread about a matter of law

There are bona fide legal types in this thread suggesting that you're well off base in that opinion.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Can one of the Lawyer's on this thread explain to me why the quote below is NOT the end of the case?

IT IS HEREBY FOUND, ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED THAT:
A. Judgment is entered for Chapterhouse and against Games Workshop on Games
Workshop’s claims of copyright infringement by the works set forth in paragraph 10, excluding
product 110 – Hell Hound. Games Workshop withdraws without prejudice its claims for
copyright infringement, trademark infringement and related claims under state law regarding
product 110, with leave to renew such claims should Chapterhouse commence marketing or sales
of such a product. Judgment is entered for Chapterhouse and against Games Workshop as to all
claims of infringement of the alleged trademarks set forth in paragraphs 12 and 13, and such
claims against Chapterhouse are dismissed with prejudice.
B. No appeal shall be taken by any party from this Partial Consent Judgment, the
right to appeal being expressly waived by all Parties.
C. Each party shall bear its own costs and attorney’s fees.
D. This final Partial Consent Judgment shall be entered hereto, forthwith, without
further notice.
Case: 1:10-cv-08103 Document #: 377 Filed: 06/04/13 Page 4 of 6 PageID #:21761
The Clerk is directed to enter this final Partial Consent Judgment forthwith.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
Dated: June 4, 2013 __________________________________
The Honorable Matthew Kennelly
United States District Judge

This sounds pretty final to me, but I'm not a lawyer.

That was in regards to stuff agreed before hand. They are listed a few pages back.

darkreever wrote:
Actually its three, my intro thread, an army list I put up where other members of Dakka have been of some great help, and this one here where some of the semi older members have jumped down my throat for not supporting Chapterhouse. Now I know I'm new, but having to support them, or at least be anti GamesWorkshop, isn't part of the rules is it?

It's not that you're not supporting Chapterhouse, and while this is a long thread, you're ignoring massive amounts of prior discussion that shows that CHS has just as much right to sell their product as a company that sells aftermarket products for cars, bikes, skateboards, computers, etc... Without the primary product (the space marine), Chapterhouse has no business.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Can one of the Lawyer's on this thread explain to me why the quote below is NOT the end of the case?

IT IS HEREBY FOUND, ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED THAT:
A. Judgment is entered for Chapterhouse and against Games Workshop on Games
Workshop’s claims of copyright infringement by the works set forth in paragraph 10, excluding
product 110 – Hell Hound. Games Workshop withdraws without prejudice its claims for
copyright infringement, trademark infringement and related claims under state law regarding
product 110, with leave to renew such claims should Chapterhouse commence marketing or sales
of such a product. Judgment is entered for Chapterhouse and against Games Workshop as to all
claims of infringement of the alleged trademarks set forth in paragraphs 12 and 13, and such
claims against Chapterhouse are dismissed with prejudice.
B. No appeal shall be taken by any party from this Partial Consent Judgment, the
right to appeal being expressly waived by all Parties.
C. Each party shall bear its own costs and attorney’s fees.
D. This final Partial Consent Judgment shall be entered hereto, forthwith, without
further notice.
Case: 1:10-cv-08103 Document #: 377 Filed: 06/04/13 Page 4 of 6 PageID #:21761
The Clerk is directed to enter this final Partial Consent Judgment forthwith.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
Dated: June 4, 2013 __________________________________
The Honorable Matthew Kennelly
United States District Judge

This is from item #377 on the case docket site.
http://ia700405.us.archive.org/18/items/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791/gov.uscourts.ilnd.250791.docket.html

This sounds pretty final to me, but I'm not a lawyer.

It is a partial consent judgement, and I only italicize that word for emphasis, not any reflection on you personally. Only some of the claims were dealt with. Many, many more went to the jury and are being considered even now.

Thanks guys.

So let me try to summarize my noobly understanding...GW listed a whole bunch of CHS stuff that GW claims has infringed upon their IP. Later, both parties agreed that some of things did not infringe the GW IP and one thing (the Hellhound) DID infringe. So CHS agreed to stop selling the Hellhound and GW agreed to drop the non-infringing things from the complaint.

Since there are still items that GW is complaining infringes their IP, the matter went before a jury and now we're waiting for a verdict?

CHS never made a Hellhound product, thus it was removed iirc.

GW pulled a lot of their claims over the last 2 years, but a ton still exist.

Almost Grug, the hellhound was dropped because CHS do not currently sell anything that does infringe hence dropped without prejudice so GW could reflile if CHS do start selling something. The other items were dropped with prejudice so GW cannot refile and basically is admitting that CHS are free to use them.

 Aerethan wrote:
CHS never made a Hellhound product, thus it was removed iirc.

GW pulled a lot of their claims over the last 2 years, but a ton still exist.

Ok...Thanks for the clarification. It kind of feels like (surprise!) GW is acting like a big friggin' bully.

darkreever wrote:

See this is what I was wondering, if Chapterhouse had a hand in getting this information made public then there is a bias to make GamesWokshop appear to be or be doing worst than they may very well be. I'd be asking the exact same thing if it appeared to be skewed in favor of GamesWorkshop.

Neither side is leaking or making stuff public.

The US federal court system uses an electronic filing system. Anything that is filed in the GW v CHS case (other than things sealed by the court) is available to the public. You can access the court files through the PACER (Public Access to Court Electronic Records) system.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Thanks guys.

So let me try to summarize my noobly understanding...GW listed a whole bunch of CHS stuff that GW claims has infringed upon their IP. Later, both parties agreed that some of things did not infringe the GW IP and one thing (the Hellhound) DID infringe. So CHS agreed to stop selling the Hellhound and GW agreed to drop the non-infringing things from the complaint.

Since there are still items that GW is complaining infringes their IP, the matter went before a jury and now we're waiting for a verdict?

There was no Chapterhouse Hellhound product (to my knowledge), which is probably the reason it was removed. Remember, GW claimed dozens and dozens and dozens of trademarks including things like skulls, arrows, roman numerals, medieval weapons (halberd), the chaos star, military marking, military unit names (imperial guard), including many that Chapterhouse never used (Hellhound). So Chapterhouse didn't dispute Hellhound and has no problem not making a Hellhound product. Many of the generic things were thrown out early on, and from what I remember, included many of the things that GW had never actually registered trademarks on, and several more were removed by the judge with prejudice (so GW cannot sue Chapterhouse again for those terms). The actual trial is much narrower in scope.

 azreal13 wrote:

darkreever wrote:

Seriously, your insinuating I am trolling; how am I supposed to take that? Honestly, take a step back and look at it: older members being dickish to a newer one because they have differing opinions on the outcome of Chapterhouse vs GamesWorkshop?

You're supposed to take notice of the laughing emoticon and realise I was teasing.

Take your chop busting like a man noob.

Now now, I can see you both are quite new to dakka, so I would just like to remind you of rule #1:

1. Rule #1 is Be Polite! It's easy!

No need for the name calling in a 160 pg. thread about legal matters.

 azreal13 wrote:
Besides, you've stated your opinion in a thread about a matter of law

There are bona fide legal types in this thread suggesting that you're well off base in that opinion.

Yes, this case is a CLEAR slam dunk for CHS, that's why it's still ongoing despite being started before you where even a member of dakka...

And I would like to mention that he isn't alone in thinking that CHS is in the wrong here. In my local group we all feel that CHS is truly just leeching off GWs IP and are at the very least morally in the wrong here.


But I won't start arguing my position further in this thread - I think we should all leave our personal opinions rest until after the judgement (which should be soon!) and for now let the great members that have been updating us keep doing their great work - thanks to you all!

darkreever wrote:

See this is what I was wondering, if Chapterhouse had a hand in getting this information made public then there is a bias to make GamesWokshop appear to be or be doing worst than they may very well be. I'd be asking the exact same thing if it appeared to be skewed in favor of GamesWorkshop.

Yup CHS may have compiled those pages, but everything contained in those pages is stuff that GW's representatives said. If it makes them look bad its not CHS to blame.

So, since it's late in the day on Friday... I don't know how these things work, is the jury about to go into deliberations (do they work over the weekend?) or will there be more testimony next week, etc?

According to BOLS the jury has reached a verdict but no details on what yet.

With the number of claims I think a verdict this soon would be pointing to a slam dunk either way but you never know.

 RiTides wrote:
So, since it's late in the day on Friday... I don't know how these things work, is the jury about to go into deliberations (do they work over the weekend?) or will there be more testimony next week, etc?

Closing arguments should have been yesterday or this morning, and deliberation would have been this afternoon assuming schedule didn't fall behind.

That said, I'm quite sure once there is a verdict it will spread like wildfire, and I imagine I'll be rubbing a few points in the faces of some local friends.

 Gorlack wrote:

A bunch of stuff indicating a sense of humour failure

I was taking the piss out of a new user, as I indicated by use of a smiley, then further explained explicitly in a subsequent post, in which I used another smiley, which, by that point, I assumed would be obvious I was being light hearted.

Evidently not.

I'm pretty sure that the Jury retires for another round of deliberations after closing statements, since some of the more hard-punch points typically come from the closing statements.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the Jury retires for another round of deliberations after closing statements, since some of the more hard-punch points typically come from the closing statements.

Word has it that closing statements where on the 11th.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:

A bunch of stuff indicating a sense of humour failure

I was taking the piss out of a new user, as I indicated by use of a smiley, then further explained explicitly in a subsequent post, in which I used another smiley, which, by that point, I assumed would be obvious I was being light hearted.

Evidently not.

Yes yes, you where quite hilarious...

On topic:

BoLS owner Larry Vela posted on the BoLS lounge that the verdict is in (but not know yet):

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?32996-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Trial&p=318979&viewfull=1#post318979

EDIT: Damn, ninjaed... But at least I have the link

Also, Asrael and I took further zing'ing and other taunts to PM to avoid OT

Fingers crossed. This has been a long thread and a long case.

 Gorlack wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:

A bunch of stuff indicating a sense of humour failure

I was taking the piss out of a new user, as I indicated by use of a smiley, then further explained explicitly in a subsequent post, in which I used another smiley, which, by that point, I assumed would be obvious I was being light hearted.

Evidently not.

Yes yes, you where quite hilarious...

What happened to rule 1? I would think patronising someone fall under that, practice what you preach my friend!

On topic:

BoLS owner Larry Vela posted on the BoLS lounge that the verdict is in (but not know yet):

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?32996-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Trial&p=318979&viewfull=1#post318979

Back on topic, but 15 minutes late I'm afraid, poster several entries up already mentioned that.

I don't see the moral difference between CHS leeching off GW, and GW leeching off Aliens, Michael Moorcock, WW1, Dune, WW2, the modern US army, Starship troopers, Nazis, Soviets, the Roman Catholic Church, Samurai, Templars, the Greek alphabet, ancient Egyptians, Mediaeval Europe, Bram Stoker, simple signs like an arrowhead, et al... ad nauseum...

Something uploaded, but the public is not permitted to download it:

06/13/2013 395 JURY Notes. (lp, ) (Entered: 06/14/2013)

One thing I don't get is how long will it take before we can get the verdict?

It's been almost 1½ hour since Larry posted the verdict was in.

If no one is present at the court room to hear the result, how long before Czakk or some other guy can find it online? Could it be days? (I dread!)

EDIT:

You answered before I posted is it normal it isn't public or is this an indication of something?

In all honesty I don't really see any moral or ethical issue with a bits maker for Warhammer. Customization and personalization is what mini gaming is about after all. Well, not completely, but it's a significant enough part of it. It's no more reprehensible than someone modifying their own helbrute to fit an underwater diver theme and then later selling that helbrute imo.

Of course, were GW to actually make all the bits, models, customizations, etc instead of the simple baseline product, that's might be different.

Edit: In fact, isn't a big part of what GW encourages with this game is customization of your own army? Your own space marine chapter, for example.

It doesn't make sense in a business setting for GW to mold, create, package, and sell Angry Marines, for example. Why is someone else filling that niche a bad thing?

Presumably one of the parties or their lawyers will post up a news update. Someone over at BOLS might be at the courthouse as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gorlack wrote:


You answered before I posted is it normal it isn't public or is this an indication of something?

I believe jury notes are questions from the jury to the court. "We don't get X, please explain again" or "We need more water" etc..

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't see the moral difference between CHS leeching off GW, and GW leeching off Aliens, Michael Moorcock, WW1, Dune, WW2, the modern US army, Starship troopers, Nazis, Soviets, the Roman Catholic Church, Samurai, Templars, the Greek alphabet, ancient Egyptians, Mediaeval Europe, Bram Stoker, simple signs like an arrowhead, et al... ad nauseum...

Without getting into a long debate it comes down to that Games Workshop takes smaller bits as ideas and often ends up changing them. Original Genestealers? Xenomorph inspire. Modern ones? I'd say a lot less so (extra set of arms, no tail to speak of, two different kinds of heads, the fact that they have visible eyes).

Chapterhouse though was only taking GW's works (namely art as has been admitted) and tweaking them very slightly. There was never a collection of sources, just one that they have clearly stated that they were trying to keep as close to as possible without toeing over the legal line. This case is just their best chance at making it 100% legal by breaking GW's IP.

What I see if CHS slam-dunks this is a massive repackage and rebrand on everything GW can't protect anymore. The models likely won't change but I'd expect a whole slew of new packaging, new names, new trademarks, ect. And the bill for all of this would be passed onto the consumer. Yay us.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't see the moral difference between CHS leeching off GW, and GW leeching off Aliens, Michael Moorcock, WW1, Dune, WW2, the modern US army, Starship troopers, Nazis, Soviets, the Roman Catholic Church, Samurai, Templars, the Greek alphabet, ancient Egyptians, Mediaeval Europe, Bram Stoker, simple signs like an arrowhead, et al... ad nauseum...

That's because there isn't.

It's like the makers of green army men trying to sue other makers of green army men.

Given the number of counts, it might take a while just to read the jury's verdict, which would explain the delay.


And to track down all the lawyers from the bar down the street and get them into court


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BOLS has the verdict here:

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict


Automatically Appended Next Post:

------

Based on that, looks like GW won some battles but lost the war. 25k in damages but CHS won on the shoulder pads.

Verdict: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict

There's more still coming, but CHS seems to have won the majority of claims including the shoulder pads, but have been ordered to pay GW $25k. So CHS still seems to be OK to continue with some items removed, and GW has lost a lot of money.

Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

Hm... Combining these two quotes from Larry Vela:

-The ruling of no infringement for the use of the underlying shape and size of GW shoulderpads is now on the legal record.
-Possibly more important is not guilty verdicts on the use of GW trademarks and terms on the CHS website.
-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

Damages Awarded:
CHS ordered to pay GW damages of $25,000 USD

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

We have a verdict!

Some initial notes:
This is a Jury Verdict, and has not yet become a Final Judgement

Breaking down the counts along the different categories we have:

Copyright Claims
160 claims alleged against CHS
-GW won on 1/3 of the claims, including items such as CHS' Powerfists
-CHS won on 2/3 of the claims, including the use of the underlying shape and size of GW Shoulderpads.

General Trademark Claims
9 claims alleged against CHS
-CHS won all 9 claims, including either no infringement, or fair use of the GW trademarks on CHS' website.

Disputed Trademark Claims
21 disputed trademark claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 11 claims
GW won 10 claims

GW Trademarks ruled "Previously Used in Commerce" Claims
61 claims alleged against CHS
CHS won 35 claims
GW won 27

Notable Trends and Individual Products Under Dispute
CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

CHS won on some individual products including:
-Jetbike
-Super-heavy walker model
-Lizard Ogre

Damages Awarded:
CHS ordered to pay GW damages of $25,000 USD

Both sides may appeal the ruling.

Thoughts and Implications:
It's looking like however CHS as an entity comes out of this ruling, the implications for the 3rd party industry are profound.

-The ruling of no infringement for the use of the underlying shape and size of GW shoulderpads is now on the legal record.
-Possibly more important is not guilty verdicts on the use of GW trademarks and terms on the CHS website.
-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

More as we get it...

From the guy's comments on BOLS:

-While certain CHS products themselves may disappear from the Earth in the aftermath of this case, it looks like the verdict may have provided a clear blueprint for the 3rd party accessory bits market. One that allows legal use of certain GW trademarks and terms in a way that goes way beyond what Nottingham themselves ever wished to allow.

This is the clincher, I think what most people wanted to know without the nitty gritty and name calling; there are still going to be 3rd party parts for Games Workshop games/miniatures, and now a level precedent has been established that means GW can't just flippantly throw C&D letters at anyone and everyone.

What justifies the damages that GW were awarded? See, while GW don't like people doing anything to their stuff, I don't see how they suffered any loss due to CHS other than all the money they three at this case. $25K damages for a case they've blown what, hundreds of thousands on?

BOLs seems to be slowing down, so I thought I'd grab this before their server melts.

It's nothing but the first post from the link provided.

Yeah, I think establishing a safe harbour for 3rd parties is the last thing GW wanted to come out of this.


So, in my jurisdiction the next big battle would be over who pays whose legal costs - although I gather down in the states that's not necessarily the case.

 Gorlack wrote:

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

They were making $100k/year according to one of the reports, so $25k is 3 months income. Maybe that's all changed now, but I don't think the fine will sink them.

I'm sure crowd funding could easily take care of the fine though, I'd happily kick in a few bucks.

Me too.
Should Chapterhouse set up a fundraiser I will kick in some too.

Very interesting! Thanks for the summaries so far, guys. So doomseer No, shoulderpads Yes. Odd that powerfists didn't get cleared, though?

I can't believe the jurors sifted through all that that fast.

czakk wrote:
So, in my jurisdiction the next big battle would be over who pays whose legal costs - although I gather down in the states that's not necessarily the case.

Yeah, barring a few scenarios involving assertions of bad faith litigation tactics, each side is generally responsible for its own costs. And given the apparent mixed nature of the decision, the only obvious place to address legal fees are around the actions that Moskin was already sanctioned for (and I believe the court addressed the costs issue as part of that ruling).

So for millions of dollars in legal fees, Games Workshop receives 25,000 dollars and safe harbor for 3rd party sites to not only sell shoulder pads/other bits--but to use Games Workshop trademark "Eldar, Space Marine compatible bits" on their sites? Sounds like a catastrophe to me.


What happens if Games Workshop sues Moskin and company for malpractice and wins?

morkian wrote:
Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

It'll be hard for even GW to spin spending 1 million dollars to prove that anyone in the wargaming industry can do this:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Herzlos wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

They were making $100k/year according to one of the reports, so $25k is 3 months income. Maybe that's all changed now, but I don't think the fine will sink them.

I'm sure crowd funding could easily take care of the fine though, I'd happily kick in a few bucks.

In profits or in money going in before costs etc? Because there is a biiig difference

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
What justifies the damages that GW were awarded? See, while GW don't like people doing anything to their stuff, I don't see how they suffered any loss due to CHS other than all the money they three at this case. $25K damages for a case they've blown what, hundreds of thousands on?

Damages likely were awarded on the basis of similar products that CHS might have produced to GW that "stole" customers as a result.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

I think that probably means the "Dark Elf Arch Tortress" miniature that CHS sells. The thingy with the arms.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Not sure if GW wants to take Disney/Marvel on about that trademark with Thor 2 coming out soon.

darkreever wrote:

Noir wrote:Wait. so instead of just not buying there stuff, like a normal person would do if they dislike something. You think screw case law, GW should win anyways. Hope you never end up in front of a jury with poeple like you on it.

Wow, mind putting your torch and pitchfork down or should I help you put that noose around my neck?

And nothing personal but I would rather a jury of myself than a jury of you. You and I do not know each other, but you seem to feel the need to jump down my throat and assume you know me and how I think; and while I don't know you any better I most certainly do not want to be judged by others who will make a judgment of me after all of two sentences.

How is wishing you a jury that looks at the law, over there personal opinion a bad thing. Law should be used to enforce personal views, guess we just see it differently.

It means if you want to make some Dark Elf figures for tabletop wargames you will have to call them Night Elves or Swart Elves or something like that.

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It means if you want to make some Dark Elf figures for tabletop wargames you will have to call them Night Elves or Swart Elves or something like that.

I'm very curious to see how the final ruling actually reads, for precisely this reason. Hasbro owns D&D, which makes miniatures, and "Drow" == "Dark Elf" for a really long time.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Use a different term than "Dark" to describe your elves? "Drow" is taken, fyi.

timd wrote:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict

Yeah, we know!

Is there something specific there that you wanted to point out or discuss in detail?

 Gorlack wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Gorlack wrote:

It might mean that the 3rd party market will be a lot more open now, but that chapterhouse will fold under that fine. Without knowing his company I can't imagine he has 25,000$ to spend on fines, and will have to go into bankruptcy.

Perhaps CHS will be a martyr for the rest of the 3rd party bit makers...

They were making $100k/year according to one of the reports, so $25k is 3 months income. Maybe that's all changed now, but I don't think the fine will sink them.

I'm sure crowd funding could easily take care of the fine though, I'd happily kick in a few bucks.

In profits or in money going in before costs etc? Because there is a biiig difference

I think it was revenue rather than profit, so it's a significant figure but I don't think it'll be enough to force them into bankrupcy.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It means if you want to make some Dark Elf figures for tabletop wargames you will have to call them Night Elves or Swart Elves or something like that.

I think it's a reference to a specific CHS product, not to "dark elf" in general.

So GW made back equivalent of around 333 landraiders in fines? (EDIT NOTE: I screwed up the decimal earlier so 333 is roughly correct now instead of off by factor of 10)

That said, I think the 25k in fines will put off some potential garage/hobby shed manufacturers who won't want to chance it.

Understood the case lays down a path for 3rd party stuff---but the bottom line loss in time and fines will help keep the masses from getting too high in their aspirations.

Now then, what are the chance of appeal on either/both sides?

privateer4hire wrote:
So GW made back equivalent of around 3333 landraiders in fines?

Well you have to subtract the likely 28,000 land raiders for legal fees

weeble1000 wrote:

morkian wrote:
Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

It'll be hard for even GW to spin spending 1 million dollars to prove that anyone in the wargaming industry can do this:

They tried to spin shutting down the facebook group as good for the consumer as it meant more face to face interaction in stores.

I think we'll get a statement something along these lines.

"This judgement and the award of $25,000 shows that GW were correct to pursue this case and we feel vindicated that the court has agreed that CHS were infringing on GW intellectual property. We can now move forward knowing we have a legal precedent to go after other manufacturers and can take legal action against them knowing we are correct."

Those who actually look at the case may realise the actual implications but the award allows them to spin it enough to those who don't, and I fully expect them to spin like mad to justify what this has cost them in legal fees.

You missed a "This is great news!' at the end there.

Wow, I've been following this from the get go. I almost can't believe it's done.

privateer4hire wrote:
So GW made back equivalent of around 3333 landraiders in fines?

That said, I think the 25k in fines will put off some potential garage/hobby shed manufacturers who won't want to chance it.

Understood the case lays down a path for 3rd party stuff---but the bottom line loss in time and fines will help keep the masses from getting too high in their aspirations.

Now then, what are the chance of appeal on either/both sides?

'round my neck of the woods its only 267 landraiders, not sure where you got your three thousand land raiders from.

Well, this has smashed the gates, though they still stand. Someone could easily come at them now with a crow bar and pry them open wider. My understanding is the experts weren't focusing on the fantasy stuff so much, so if push came to shove with some new manufacturer that produced dark elves... well... I don't think it would go well for GW. As it stand I can't imagine either side wanting to appeal this, as I think GW came out with more than should have been expected, and CHS got a slap on the wrist, so I don't think they'd want to risk paying more for getting the same result.

This sets a definite legal precedent for what is absolutely allowed. It'll provide a major shield for other 3rd party companies, which I think is a great thing. More variety in the market only serves to make it better for us, the consumer.

25k really is nothing. GW's spin is... hilarious and sad.

 Lint wrote:
Wow, I've been following this from the get go. I almost can't believe it's done.

this chapter might be done, but, rest assured, it isn't done. There's the immediate fallout still needing dealing with, and then there's the market fallout as well.

It's called jacking up the decimal
So that would be 333 LandRaiders----even more pathetic.

GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

JWhex wrote:
GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

It won't make a difference? In a year's time, when you google "Space Marine Accessories" you won't get a GW website at the top of the search results.

As much of a focus as there is on the Space Marine side of things, I think there's a significant portion in the xenos side of the game as well.

Weapon options currently unavailable due to old casts of models? Warp spiders, for example, without power blades and instead with... I dunno, a spinneret rifle.

Tyranid models that might actually have biomorphs?

JWhex wrote:
GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

i'm sorry, and their shareholders are goign to be jumping with joy when they find out that the hold over the market has been diluted?

And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

morkian wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

morkian wrote:
Without knowing the full details it looks like CHS generally came off the better but GW probably have enough to spin it as a total victory for everything they said.

It'll be hard for even GW to spin spending 1 million dollars to prove that anyone in the wargaming industry can do this:

They tried to spin shutting down the facebook group as good for the consumer as it meant more face to face interaction in stores.

I think we'll get a statement something along these lines.

"This judgement and the award of $25,000 shows that GW were correct to pursue this case and we feel vindicated that the court has agreed that CHS were infringing on GW intellectual property. We can now move forward knowing we have a legal precedent to go after other manufacturers and can take legal action against them knowing we are correct."

Those who actually look at the case may realise the actual implications but the award allows them to spin it enough to those who don't, and I fully expect them to spin like mad to justify what this has cost them in legal fees.

Yeah, but that's for the laymen. No matter how GW want to spin it, it's gone down the way it has in legal records. This will be a reference case for likely many future cases under common law following the law of precedent cases.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

After following this thread(and reading it) since before I made an account here, it's good to see it finally settled after 165+ pages. Does anyone have any information as to when the final judgement will be known? Or was this the final judgement? It was made to seem to be the jury's verdict.

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

Was it 400k a year? I thought it was 400k over four years.

Either way, I'm sure that bankruptcy won't be a problem. 25k really is not that much money today.

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

Yeah, it's not nothing, and hitting all at once is not good either. But it's not millions in statutory damages and destroy all your moulds please.

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

I thought his Overseas partner, was the one taking in 3,000, while he was taking in 7,000.

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Use a different term than "Dark" to describe your elves? "Drow" is taken, fyi.

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

Then again, I believe all new releases have been on hold for quite some time. Assuming Nick hasn't just sat on his hands this whole time, its quite possible there's a whole bunch of new stuff ready to go, or designed at least, which could help generate some fresh income.

 Breotan wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

CHS lost on some individual products including:
-Doomseer
-Dark Elf

What does this mean for... Fantasy/Norse Folklore in general if GW has the trademark on 'Dark Elf'?

Use a different term than "Dark" to describe your elves? "Drow" is taken, fyi.

You do know that the term "Dark Elf" wouldn't pertain to every use of it ever, and only in realms GW actually has a trademark for it (without trying to look it up I'm guessing this is pretty strictly tabletop wargames), right?

JWhex wrote:
GW wont spin this, they dont really have a need to make any kind of announcement. The overwhelming majority of their customers dont really care.

A few more people may start to offer 3rd party kits which is good but in the broad scheme of things is not going to make any difference. If anything these kits drive GW sales up not down because you need the basic space marine model to put the shoulder pads on.

In an odd way this could help GW sales because say some one makes a White Scars set of accessories, it may cause some White Scars fans to take the plunge and make an army. GW never understood this possible outcome because they are control freaks.

I actually agree with you here.. I don't think this will make that much difference.

Most people (or the 'casual' purchaser perhaps) will continue to buy the standard kits, and not even be aware of the existence of the likes of CHS or other companies.

For the more experienced and avid collector they will simply be able to continue buying the alternative bits that they always have.. and as you say, those shoulder pads still need marines to sit on. Somewhat ironically, now a precedent has been set and the situation 'stabilised' to a degree, more people might make the plunge and actually start to get back into the GW core games because of the extra and more diverse options open to them.. although of course this will be nothing like enough to offset the rather incredible amount of money and effort that GW has sunk into this case for the past few years.

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

That was what he was making for personal income from CHS, with a partner making $2k (iirc). Personal income doesn't necessarily equal out to total business profit per month. It's hard to judge off of just those two things how much the business is actually bringing in over costs, since you generally want to set aside some of that profit to help grow the business.

If you can't have the dark, then...

Gentlemen, I propose that in the future all malevolent elven aliens covered in spiky bits be called Grim Elves.

In the grim darkness of the future, there are only elves...

 Specs wrote:
If you can't have the dark, then...

Gentlemen, I propose that in the future all malevolent elven aliens covered in spiky bits be called Grim Elves.

worse comes to worse, we'll give all of the elves fedoras and cigarettes, and call them Noir Elves.

 derek wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

That was what he was making for personal income from CHS, with a partner making $2k (iirc). Personal income doesn't necessarily equal out to total business profit per month. It's hard to judge off of just those two things how much the business is actually bringing in over costs, since you generally want to set aside some of that profit to help grow the business.

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Heh. Just thought of something. 25k is the small claims limit in my jurisdiction.

czakk wrote:
Heh. Just thought of something. 25k is the small claims limit in my jurisdiction.

what;s your jurisdiction? I think it's $20K in alberta....

ClockworkZion wrote:


Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross and was putting out $5k between him and his partner.

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

It's not awesome - but, for instance, if the $25K is tax deductible (it would be up here), it could be carried back to previous profitable years. It doesn't totally disappear, but say Chapterhouse LLC's tax rate is 30%, he gets a third knocked off the judgment right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 poda_t wrote:

czakk wrote:
Heh. Just thought of something. 25k is the small claims limit in my jurisdiction.

what;s your jurisdiction? I think it's $20K in alberta....

Ontario. The 25k award would have terrible cost consequences for GW up here. Forcing a full trial with a jury and not getting more than 100k in damages would mean a massive costs award. But I digress...

ClockworkZion wrote:

 derek wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

czakk wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

25k fine with 400k a year in revenues? It's not great, but shouldn't be the end of the world.


Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

That's his gross, remember he said he was taking in $3,000 a month NET. $25k could be pretty painful when you factor in that it's an additional charge on top of the things he's already paying for (materials, server costs and shipping for example).

That was what he was making for personal income from CHS, with a partner making $2k (iirc). Personal income doesn't necessarily equal out to total business profit per month. It's hard to judge off of just those two things how much the business is actually bringing in over costs, since you generally want to set aside some of that profit to help grow the business.

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
After following this thread(and reading it) since before I made an account here, it's good to see it finally settled after 165+ pages. Does anyone have any information as to when the final judgement will be known? Or was this the final judgement? It was made to seem to be the jury's verdict.

And, for the legal types, is there generally much difference between the jury's verdict and the final judgement?

I don't think this will change too much. There were loads of sites selling stuff designed to be used with 40k models, they just changed the names. Now they no longer have to change the names...well gosh.

No flame-baiting, please. --Janthkin

 Dysartes wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
After following this thread(and reading it) since before I made an account here, it's good to see it finally settled after 165+ pages. Does anyone have any information as to when the final judgement will be known? Or was this the final judgement? It was made to seem to be the jury's verdict.

And, for the legal types, is there generally much difference between the jury's verdict and the final judgement?

For starters, I think we still have to wait for the judge to rule on two motions (unless he did it orally, and we missed it). That could change things.

And all this time and effort for $25k is like the NFL winning a dollar in damages from the USFL.

I think paying 25k for a solid 3rd party safe harbour in the US might end up being the deal of a century. But we still need to get the full verdict and the final judgment

 BryllCream wrote:
I don't think this will change too much. There were loads of sites selling stuff designed to be used with 40k models, they just changed the names. Now they no longer have to change the names...well gosh.

I predicted GW would lose on the shoulder pad and the fair use issues, and they did.

They also lost financially, as that money can't really be claimed as "protecting their IP" since they actually lost a lot of what they claimed was theirs.

You can ostrich all you want, GW lost here.

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

I have not. I only have access to the same exact info everyone else in this thread has. Before you go jumping down my throat about something not I was offering an opinion based on limited facts. I never claimed it to be the way it was actually going to be, just how it looks.

AFAIK you can pay judgments for damages over time. And I believe CHS will be getting a lot of people ordering bits now, as support. When GW released the Eldar, and I bought the book, I offset it by ordering the Farseer and Warlock kits from CHS

ClockworkZion wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

I have not. I only have access to the same exact info everyone else in this thread has. Before you go jumping down my throat about something not I was offering an opinion based on limited facts. I never claimed it to be the way it was actually going to be, just how it looks.

Just trying to figure out what authority you base this opinion on. You have no basis to comment on anything about what it looks like if you have no access to real financials to know the impact (or not) of what $25k would be or how it will be handled. Seem like it's a worthwhile investment knowing exactly where the line is and isn't at this point. It makes marketing and operations a whole lot easier if you don't have to step around what could or could not be trouble.

I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Incidentally, was there a ruling on the Thunderwolf models? I've not really been following the case.

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

Fair enough point. I can't imagine this not hurting at least a bit though considering he took in $400k gross (over 4 years) and was putting out $5k between him and his partner (a month).

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

Reviewed his financials have you? What qualifies you to make such a bold statement?

I have not. I only have access to the same exact info everyone else in this thread has. Before you go jumping down my throat about something not I was offering an opinion based on limited facts. I never claimed it to be the way it was actually going to be, just how it looks.

Just trying to figure out what authority you base this opinion on. You have no basis to comment on anything about what it looks like if you have no access to real financials to know the impact (or not) of what $25k would be or how it will be handled. Seem like it's a worthwhile investment knowing exactly where the line is and isn't at this point. It makes marketing and operations a whole lot easier if you don't have to step around what could or could not be trouble.

1. Quit appealing to authority if you disagree with me. Just disagree with me straight up so we can all move on with our lives.
2. An opinion doesn't need an official basis. It's an opinion not a fact. Stating that I don't think it looks great for CHS fiscally is my opinion. What actually happens will be fact. Stop making an arguement where there isn't one.
3. You have no more of an idea if that $25k will kill CHS anymore than I do, sure this might make it easier for other companies, but the point of fact was that I didn't see it helping CHS as much if it takes them down fiscally.

And lastly, next time you want to tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. I don't appreciate you attacking my lack of credentials for something when I've never put forth a claim that I had them.

Spend hundreds of thousands over the course of several years on expensive lawyers.

Win a very small fraction of the money spent (practically spare change for a company GW's size) and also have your bluff called on several trademark claims.

THIS IS GOOD NEEEEEEEEEWS!

No one was tring to strip GW of their IP - so nothing in the win column for GW for it not happening.

Long time lurker, first time poster in this thread. First off, I'm surprised that CHS didn't win on more of the claims, but as of yet, we don't have all the specific breakdowns of what exactly was won/lost aside from the few that were mentioned. I know overall this is still a win for CHS.

As it is, I see reasons for both sides to file for an appeal, GW more than CHS though. GW lost so much on these rulings that I will be extremely surprised if they don't appeal. CHS doesn't have as much to gain by appealing, but if they could even avoid coughing up $25k they might take that chance (assuming they would get pro bono representation for the appeal as well).

Once the final judgements are made, what sort of time frame would the more knowledgeable people in this thread say that GW/CHS would have in order to comply with the rulings? Will CHS have a chance to do a Doomseer blowout sale or would it be effective immediately that they could no longer sell that particular model? Also, how would either side appealing these decisions affect such things?

[wild speculation&musing]
It would be very interesting if a bunch of 3rd party SM shoulder-pads were to be produced between the end of this trial and the rulings overturned on appeal, thus shutting them down again (3rd party SM shoulder-pads, not CHS).
[/wild speculation&musing]

 BryllCream wrote:

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Incidentally, was there a ruling on the Thunderwolf models? I've not really been following the case.

It's relevant for other bits makers out there - since GW is unlikely to shoot first with C&Ds now, and the line of what's acceptable to courts has been drawn.

I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

In contrast, UBS was fined £160m, ~2% of their yearly revenue, for fixing the LIBOR rates. Chapterhouse has hardly got a slap on the wrist here, even if they get some sort of crowd sourcing thing going.

 Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

As it is, I see reasons for both sides to file for an appeal, GW more than CHS though. GW lost so much on these rulings that I will be extremely surprised if they don't appeal. CHS doesn't have as much to gain by appealing, but if they could even avoid coughing up $25k they might take that chance (assuming they would get pro bono representation for the appeal as well).

IANAL but you can't just go out into the parking lot and shout APPEAAAAAAAAAAL!!!! and expect to get a re-roll. They need good, solid evidence that the court/jury/judge somehow fubar-ed in order to expect their appeal to be taken seriously and previous rulings overturned.

Topic, folks. A jury verdict does not provide a reason for gloating, attacking other posters, or wandering off into new discussions within this thread.

For reference, now that the jury verdict is in, if the Judge was sitting on any judgments as a matter of law, this would be the time he would wheel those out. (Judges often wait until the verdict is in to give the court something to fall back on, if an appellate court overturned the lower court's rulings.)

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

Depending on timeline for payment, tax code, and the simple fact that CH can get a short-term business loan at ridiculous interest rates, $25k very likely is something that can be shrugged off.

Added to that how CH business has just been legitimized and a great deal of uncertainty has been removed from their biz model, not to mention the free advertising they're now gaining by every single 40k fansite tossing this or links to this into the blogosphere, it's hardly like they didn't receive any benefit whatsoever from that spend.

ClockworkZion wrote:


1. Quit appealing to authority if you disagree with me. Just disagree with me straight up so we can all move on with our lives.

I suggest you learn what appeals to authority actually are if you are going to claim them. Your comment here

So we have $25K in their pay a year (collectively) out of $100k each year. Add in taxes, server costs, ect. Even if he has a sort of expense account he's putting extra money into "just in case" I don't see it being all that great for CHS fiscally.

is a fine example of just that. You have no basis for stating what you see.

2. An opinion doesn't need an official basis. It's an opinion not a fact. Stating that I don't think it looks great for CHS fiscally is my opinion. What actually happens will be fact. Stop making an arguement where there isn't one.

If you are stating an opinion as fact, then it does. It was unclear what you were basing that on. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about now.

3. You have no more of an idea if that $25k will kill CHS anymore than I do, sure this might make it easier for other companies, but the point of fact was that I didn't see it helping CHS as much if it takes them down fiscally.

I made no claim that it would or would not so I have offered no opinion. I know the actions I would take if I were in there stead based on what I know of the case and $25k would be fairly easy to come up with.

And lastly, next time you want to tell me I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. I don't appreciate you attacking my lack of credentials for something when I've never put forth a claim that I had them.

If you have no credentials (and you state you have none), there's nothing for me to attack. I don't know if you are wrong. I don't have enough knowledge of their financial position to make a statement. Neither do you.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Incidentally, was there a ruling on the Thunderwolf models? I've not really been following the case.

It's relevant for other bits makers out there - since GW is unlikely to shoot first with C&Ds now, and the line of what's acceptable to courts has been drawn.

Personally I don't think that's all that likely. I imagine GW might continue on as they always have, handing C&D notices out to everyone like candy and calling for nothing less than their complete destruction and the surrender of all their property and profits, and bank on the fact that their next victim(s) might not be so lucky as to acquire pro-bono legal aid so that they stand a fighting chance.

I mean is there anything stopping them, really? Even if the result of this case did set precedents and give all third parties a more clear line to avoid crossing GW can still rely on their old bullying tactics and screw people over who can't afford lawyers, can't they? In the end I don't feel that GW "won" this, and hopefully Chapterhouse will come out okay after paying the $25,000, but I'm a cynical melon-fether and I don't see this changing anything but GW's release schedule.

Mmm, melons.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And so it ends. Not with a bang, for either party, but with a grumble and a lot of settling dust. Will be interesting to see if CHS can avoid bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy wouldn't matter in the least. Bankruptcy doesn't mean a company disappears or has its assets liquidated. For a business, it can merely mean the company's obligations are restructured. The business in question really doesn't have much in the way of assets for a bankruptcy trustee to determine must be sold to meet an obligation. If CHS did file Ch11, more than likely, GW's award would largely be avoided, and CHS would come out smelling like a rose on the other side.

12thRonin wrote:And all this time and effort for $25k is like the NFL winning a dollar in damages from the USFL.

That's actually backwards the USFL won $1(3) from the NFL, but yes it is like that.
And an excellent reference.

12thRonin wrote:

If you have no credentials (and you state you have none), there's nothing for me to attack. I don't know if you are wrong. I don't have enough knowledge of their financial position to make a statement. Neither do you.

I'm cutting it down to that, just to distill this down as much as possible. I have enough information to make an educated guess. That guess can be completely wrong, but I can make a guess. That's what I did. I have every right to do so, and the fact that you have taken such a great interest in my saying that means you've ignored all the other people who have said the same thing (like BoLS when they put it up). Frankly I'm not the only one thinking this and attacking me over it was frankly stupid. I offered my opinion, based on a small number of facts, that this could hurt CHS as they stand now. If they change something or dump a whole slew of new products online that changes the facts and can offer a new conclusion, but the point is that you attacked me because you disagreed with my layman's assesment instead of just offering a different viewpoint.

This could have been a gentlemen's discussion about our different viewpoints on this and how CHS will react to the cost of the damages but you attacked me and devolved this into something less than that. Congrats, you lessened the potential depth of this conversation to that of a mud puddle.

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

GW can still pass out C&D's like candy and hope their opponenets buckle, but now they have to measure the risk verses reward ratio more closely.

What's the point of putting some garage operation out of buissiness if it's costs 1000 times more in legal fees than actual lost revenue ?

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me

 judgedoug wrote:
AFAIK you can pay judgments for damages over time. And I believe CHS will be getting a lot of people ordering bits now, as support. When GW released the Eldar, and I bought the book, I offset it by ordering the Farseer and Warlock kits from CHS

I will be placing an order for a couple things i have been holding off on tonight. Hooray for us. A bit painful for CHS but i think they will overcome with community assistance.

GW isn't going to say a damn thing about this. Not to the pulblic.

 BryllCream wrote:

Syraphym wrote:
I wouldn't even call it a win for GW, let alone a glorious one.

It's not a win for GW. Nor has it stripped them of their IP. It's irrelevent really to anyone who doesn't shop at Chapterhouse, since GW have already stopped releasing rules without models (a concequence of the case rather than the verdict).

Actually, it's pretty big for people who have been sitting on the sidelines wanting to sell their "after market" creations. This case provides a some clarity on what can be done and what would infringe.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's relevant for other bits makers out there - since GW is unlikely to shoot first with C&Ds now..

I don't see this as being the case at all. GW will still fire off C&Ds each and every time they feel something touches "their" h-h-hobby. Clarity will simply allow after market guys to be bolder in certain areas.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me

Nobody 'stole' anything. You are aware that the overwhelming majority of CHS catalogue requires a purchase from GW to be of any use whatsoever?

How very dare they! I mean, spotting a gap in the market and exploiting it, despite the fact the multimillion pound PLC who had total control for over a quarter of a century utterly failed to capitalise on the very same opportunity!

Any sign of a Final Judgement yet? Or any more documents?

There is no risk for GW to send out as many C&D letters as before. The risk begins when they decide to pursue legal remedy. Also, they as well as Chapterhouse have some idea on what is defendable, so they could just wait until someone crosses that particular line, then get aggressive.

As far as people gloating over all the money GW spent, it wouldnt surprise me if most or even all of that is tax deductible as a business expense but I am just guessing.

25K is probably rather painful to CHS but I bet they can weather that if they were financially healthy before. You cant even buy a new SUV for that price.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me

I'm not flaming you at all. Your position (and GW's for that matter) just doesn't mesh with US IP law, no matter how much you think things should be different.

Your "stole your tv" analogy is completely inaccurate. CHS didn't steal anything. As has been repeated over, and over, and over, and over (ad nauseum) in this thread, it's perfectly OK to make aftermarket parts for another manufacturer's product. It has been for decades. And, the trial shows that this interpretation was largely correct.

czakk wrote:
[quote=Agamemnon2 355433 5739813 9f36407ead0629fc166f14dde7970f68.jpg

Are legal fines tax deductible in the states? Might even be able to carry it back and get some relief that way.

No. Fines and penalties are never tax deductible.

 BryllCream wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

?

No one is saying that $1,000,000 is a "lot of money" for GW. We're saying it was a bad investment for them to spend that much money to only get an award of $25,000.

They could have instead have worked out a licensing agreement with CHS and actually made money on the situation and gained a degree of control over CHS's work.

Sending a nice clear message to people that if they get successful enough at piggy backing GW's IP, they'll be rewarded with a partnership deal? From GW's point of view they're trying to stop CHS from profitting off GW's intellectual property. You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you? This is how GW would see it...please do not flame me

The problem now, from a possible GW perspective, is that by not having a means of licensing they have now a nice clear message sent that you can piggy back all you want in most of the regards they were trying to protect..

Having licensing available - not just to CHS but to others - would have meant having a secondary revenue stream from companies that would much rather pay a licensing fee than spend time in court, and could have a nice snazzy logo of 'officially licensed from GW', like Armorcast and Epic Cast of old.

In some regards it is similar to the Kingdoms of Kalamar situation in regards to OGL and GSL licensing.

The OGL and D20 STL gave a nice logo to announce compatibility and a safe harbor to produce legally sanctioned material in support of the game, and allowed WotC to demonstrate control of their properties without risking money on court cases.

The 4e GSL tried to bring all properties back under WotC's direct control, and reduce the size of the safe harbor - but a 4e compatible version of KoK was still produced, without the use of that license.

Where the D20 OGL and d20 STL traded some freedoms by manufacturers they allowed other freedoms in their place.

The GSL, by comparison, gave nothing in return for following the edicts of the license - so there was a bloody great hole that allowed more savvy companies to produce products without WotC being able to exercise any control whatsoever.

WotC, to their credit, did not try to take on a case that they would likely fail. Kenzer & Co still has the 4e compatible KoK available.

Back to GW, rather than having a license that would have allowed at least a semblance of control over the contested IP GW has now lost both the semblance and actuality of control.

A Pyrrhic victory at best.

GW's besetting sin in this instance was hubris - and was something that they could have avoided.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The problem now, from a possible GW perspective, is that by not having a means of licensing they have now a nice clear message sent that you can piggy back all you want in most of the regards they were trying to protect..

Picking up on this point, what actual products were ruled in CHSs favour? Was there any pattern to it or was it on a case-by-case basis? If it's the latter then that doesn't set much of a precedant, other than the specific products that were ruled in CHS's favour.

 BryllCream wrote:
You don't offer a partnership to the dude who stole your tv, do you?

If you're in the business of stealing appliances, and the dude who stole your tv shows that he can make a decent return stealing tvs from places that you couldn't be bothered stealing from yourself, then yes, you very well might.

 BryllCream wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
The problem now, from a possible GW perspective, is that by not having a means of licensing they have now a nice clear message sent that you can piggy back all you want in most of the regards they were trying to protect..

Picking up on this point, what actual products were ruled in CHSs favour? Was there any pattern to it or was it on a case-by-case basis? If it's the latter then that doesn't set much of a precedant, other than the specific products that were ruled in CHS's favour.

The first, most obvious, and most important has been known since before the jury trial - GW does not have sole right of manufacture for Space Marine shoulder pads.

Other than that...

We know that Jetbike has been lost as GW IP.

The walker has been lost

The Lizard Ogre.

All three were poor choices for GW to pursue - there were clear precedents that predated GW's incorporation, let alone WHFB or WH40K.

I am looking forward to seeing the specifics as well.

Much of this could have been avoided by having a 3PP license in place, much like GW had in the past, and that they still have in regards to role playing products.

And, personal opinion only here, I actually suspect that in the long term GW losing their claimed properties in so many regards will actually be healthy for the company - that the 3PP products help the industry, and broaden the financial base of GW.

Short term... I expect that GW stock may take a hit, but that it will be recovered in a relatively short time.

In short.. This is Great News!... though I doubt that GW will agree with that, at least in the short term.

The Auld Grump... I seem to be overly fond of the word 'short' in the last few sentences....

Didn't CHS have a warchest funded before they obtained Pro Bono? I wonder if there's any money left in that?

Cheers

Andrew

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

xxvaderxx wrote:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

Sorry, but the cock is crowing a little soon here. We don't have the final judgement, we don't have the list of what GW did and didn't lose and we certainly don't know if GW is going to fold under. They didn't lose on everything and frankly we don't know how bad they really did lose.

Also, if GW goes under so do all those other little minature companies who can be affected by the same problems.

Oh, and this ruling only works in the US. All other court cases will have to be handled in their respective country.

So what are you crowing about again?

Heh, Heh, Heh.... Looks like the old man in the walker called it correctly to the results (at this moment) concerning the verdict. It is not Quite over yet, at least what I know from experience dealing with court cases.

Pyrrhic victory for Games Workshop? Not sure. I personally believe that they got more than they should in their verdict so (in my eyes) it is a win for them. I'm expecting once this court case is over there be more C&D letters going out to 3rd party companies. I'm also expecting their stock to go up soon and the massive spin doctoring to commence.

In some regards it is similar to the Kingdoms of Kalamar situation in regards to OGL and GSL licensing....

Again posted this concept previously on this topic, though it is nice for others to show people the concept of OSL licensing.

I agree with Mr Longwalker.

GW seem to have won on a surprising number of points, but without the details we can't know the impact.

I am disappointed about the Doomseer and Torturess. I see why the jury would have come to that decision, though.

However if GW will now produce a female Farseer, it will make a lot of players happy.

xxvaderxx wrote:
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I new this would blow up on gw face sooner or later!!!!!!!

Bring on:
Heat weapon compatible with space marines
Rocket launcher compatible with space marine
Flamethrower compatible with spacemarines
Legion X shoulderpad compatible with spacemarines

Ad fething infinitum

This added to the advent of 3d printing and gw days are numbered

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can. Like seriously? What's going to happen to your hobby if GW goes under? Or do you not even play, and are just going around spouting the GW haterade just 'cuz you simply don't like them, and want to show everyone that fact? And I think we already established in the other thread that 3D printing isn't going to put GW out of business. Also as ClockworkZion stated, if it kills GW, it'll kill everything else.

It won't kill GW. If anything, it will help them so long as people have to buy GW kits to put the 3rd party conversion parts on.

What would be a problem is if people could make entire Space Marine lookalikes cheaper, but that is not the effect of the verdict if I have understood it properly. That is, GW seem to have lost on things like the shape and size of the shoulder-pad, and generic SF names like jetbike, and they won on things like the Doomseer which are much closer to whole core products.

 BryllCream wrote:
I love how £1m is a huge amount of money for GW, but $25k, a quarter of Chapterhouse's yearly revenue, is something they can just shrug off .

In contrast, UBS was fined £160m, ~2% of their yearly revenue, for fixing the LIBOR rates. Chapterhouse has hardly got a slap on the wrist here, even if they get some sort of crowd sourcing thing going.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

Is there any idea of how the figure of $25,000 was arrived at?

Herzlos wrote:


I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

GW spent several times more than $1 million... CHS their representation spent in the ballpark of 3-4 times that... And they estimated based on the seniority of GW's attorney's and all the travel involving their witnesses GW spent more than they did. GW's legal team was also larger. This is the most expensive pro-bono case ever for the firm representing CHS.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

GW spent several times more than $1 million... CHS their representation spent in the ballpark of 3-4 times that... And they estimated based on the seniority of GW's attorney's and all the travel involving their witnesses GW spent more than they did. This is the most expensive pro-bono case ever for the firm representing CHS.

Gotta say though, it's a pretty landmark case, and it probably looks good for them too.

There were several other firms waiting on the side wanting the opportunity for that glory too. This is only to say many firms feared an outcome where completely GW won. Even with 2/3 win, CHS will likely feel pressure to appeal.

Are there going to be any taxes owed for that Pro Bono legal help? That could be a real bitch if there is.

JWhex wrote:
There is no risk for GW to send out as many C&D letters as before. The risk begins when they decide to pursue legal remedy. Also, they as well as Chapterhouse have some idea on what is defendable, so they could just wait until someone crosses that particular line, then get aggressive.

Yes.. I suppose they might be a bit more wary, in that there will always be a chance that the garage-business in question will 'call their bluff' as it were, and get legal representation. While GW can no doubt afford another dozen cases like this, it's the uprooting of their main design staff and personnel to go and sit in court-rooms for days on end and no doubt weeks of preparation for it. I can't imagine any of those guys being particularly fond of having to do this all again...

And, to those who are speaking of winning and losing? As always, there are only one group of winners, and that is the legal companies involved in this whole sorry affair - those who have profited from a company simply not understanding its own product and its position in the industry and wider scheme of things, and its inability to simply communicate and come to some sort of compromise without wasting years of their lives (and no doubt getting a few grey hairs) worrying about this sort of gak.

 aka_mythos wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


I don't think anyone is saying it's a huge cost for GW but not for CHS. But spending (very conservatively) $1,000,000 and a lot of good will to get $25,000 in damages is a pretty poor return on investment.

GW spent several times more than $1 million... CHS their representation spent in the ballpark of 3-4 times that... And they estimated based on the seniority of GW's attorney's and all the travel involving their witnesses GW spent more than they did. GW's legal team was also larger. This is the most expensive pro-bono case ever for the firm representing CHS.

Yeah GW easily spent more than $1 million, and it'll be hard to get an actual figure due to the way it's been accounted away over a couple of years, but that just goes to make the ROI even worse. What else could they have spent those millions on instead of wasting court time?

Herzlos wrote:

What else could they have spent those millions on instead of wasting court time?

Hookers and Blackjack?


I think that if they actually learn anything from this very expensive process that in the future we'll actually see more specific C&D action rather than them taking companies straight to trial. I think the C&Ds will be much more focused on the specific details of what they find objectional and offer discussion, maybe a little less Hulk voice of: Grah! GW sue NOW!! I was pretty shocked that I'd recieved no contact from GW prior to being thrown into the midst of a suit, a 5 minute phone call could have saved a lot of time and money on their end, but I guess they have hundred dollar bills to spare whenever they need to warm up the fire. ::shrug::

With them dropping the line about having some 200 companies on file that they are considering action against I think we'll defiantely still see them go after companies, but they'll likely put in proper leg work before their next run. (At least if they want actual results). Spending that type of money and time to get a mixed "win" I don't see the any practical application for. Seems that always playing the hard-ass card has cost them quite a tidy sum. A little bit of communiation instead of mashing the "Hulk Smash!" button can go a very long way and it certainly costs a lot less.

Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. Gillian Stevenson is probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

[Speculation here as we don't know what is in the final verdict.]

It appears that spare parts are okay, complete figures aren't, isn't that a loss for other companies specialising in 'not' figures, for example the Celtic Knight range?

[/speculation]

Cheers

Andrew

Who's Gillian Stevenson?

Well people it is time to help CHS order today, to make the fine go away!

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I'm not going to argue all the points here, but Kennelly seems to deal largely in IP cases if his current docket is anything to go by, so I'd assume he does know what he's doing more than the average 40k player does in that regard.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Well people it is time to help CHS order today, to make the fine go away!

Yeah, no thanks. I honestly don't have a thing against 3rd party companies like Scribor who make new things that are compatible with 40k models (Tojan Helmeted Heads come to mind), but in CHS' case I always felt they weren't really doing anything original. Hell a fair amount of the time they were making "not X" of something GW has (Iron Hand Shoulder Pads come to mind). So no, I don't like their attitude in how they conduct buisness. If they'd stuck to things like new kinds of shoulder pads (chapters who don't have them for instance) or conversion kits (as much as I see it being kind of useless the Stormraven Conversion kit was one of their better bits) I'd be a lot more for supporting them.

 AndrewC wrote:
[Speculation here as we don't know what is in the final verdict.]

It appears that spare parts are okay, complete figures aren't, isn't that a loss for other companies specialising in 'not' figures, for example the Celtic Knight range?

It would only be a problem where those figures look enough like GW's. And, of course, where the company producing them isn't in Poland, Russia, or China...

And the winners in this case is!

US

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

So there's still a chance for Kennelly to pull his finger out and re look at the actual case before both sides put in there appeals?

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

 Ouze wrote:
Who's Gillian Stevenson?

GWs in house counsel.

http://www.thelawyer.com/games-workshop-wins-legal-manager-from-roythorne/132198.article

czakk wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Who's Gillian Stevenson?

GWs in house counsel.

http://www.thelawyer.com/games-workshop-wins-legal-manager-from-roythorne/132198.article

The thing that caught my eye was that last paragraph in the article talking about the revenue and pre tax income GW reported back in 2008.

czakk wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Who's Gillian Stevenson?

GWs in house counsel.

http://www.thelawyer.com/games-workshop-wins-legal-manager-from-roythorne/132198.article

Well, 5 years was a good run for her. I'd be interested in the timing of the onslaught of C&Ds and her appointment....

http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/gill-stevenson/13/933/526

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

Word of friendly advice. Just be careful. Think clearly on how you proceed with your venture. Get solid legal advice from people who deal in your scope of business.

And above all good luck. Perhaps if the stuff you are wanting to produce is what I'm looking for I'll go and purchase some.

Adam

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

Word of friendly advice. Just be careful. Think clearly on how you proceed with your venture. Get solid legal advice from people who deal in your scope of business.

And above all good luck. Perhaps if the stuff you are wanting to produce is what I'm looking for I'll go and purchase some.

Adam

Sound advice but even that may not save you since CHS received legal advice before they started and wound up in court anyway.

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I can't comment on the capabilities of the Judge nor presume on Ms Stevenson but clearly you have a different definition of butt kicking in Louisiana than here in Blighty.

Is only the home run of a large cash judgement considered a victory or are there other qualitative objectives that could be desired as well. I think that there are merits to the latter that some might not have considered.

Dr. Grindley touristing in Chicago (just cause I'm trawling around looking for word of the case):

@cjgrindley 10 Jun
aaaahhhhhhhhhhhg!!!!! done.

@cjgrindley 10 Jun
Going dark until after the trial, wish me luck.


@cjgrindley 10 Jun
On my way to court


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 notprop wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I can't comment on the capabilities of the Judge nor presume on Ms Stevenson but clearly you have a different definition of butt kicking in Louisiana than here in Blighty.

Is only the home run of a large cash judgement considered a victory or are there other qualitative objectives that could be desired as well. I think that there are merits to the latter that some might not have considered.

A 25k judgment is terrible but we really have to wait for the actual judgment before we figure out the qualitative stuff (the quality of GWs copyrights / trademarks in the US) .

 notprop wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Expensive is a subjective term, GW could well think it is worth the money if their little world is now better defined from a legal or commercial standpoint.

This may well see a further tightening of the secrecy strings, more complete releases or even (whisper it) a return of a bits service?

In any case I do not see the final judgement changing GWs approach to contacting other companies/individuals and issuing C&D letters. GW will only see the successful elements of this judgement if their "This is great news!" mentality is as ingrained as some would have you believe.

From what I understand, Gillian Stevenson was nearly in tears when the verdict was read. GW is not considering this a win by any sense of the word. She's probably afraid she'll get fired. I think she should be. This case was bungled by GW from day 1. If it was her recommendation to pursue it, she should be fired, immediately. All she has done is damage GW's ability to enforce its "IP" in the manner the company believes it should be able to. And it cost a huge amount of money. 1 million+ is not small change for GW, not at all. GW is not the kind of company that can piss away 1 million dollars on nothing.

GW got lucky in getting a judge that did not give a crap, did not do his job, and did not actually look at the facts before making his decisions. The appellate court will sort that mess out if Judge Kennelly does not take the jury's verdict as an indication to fix a few problems post verdict.

GW got its butt kicked by a guy spin casting in his garage. That's the situation. Games Workshop got dragged all the way to a jury verdict by Chapterhouse Studios. Just getting to that point was a win for Nick Villacci. Getting this type of verdict, that is a huge win.

I can't comment on the capabilities of the Judge nor presume on Ms Stevenson but clearly you have a different definition of butt kicking in Louisiana than here in Blighty.

Is only the home run of a large cash judgement considered a victory or are there other qualitative objectives that could be desired as well. I think that there are merits to the latter that some might not have considered.

The money isn't even a factor in deciding victory for this case.

GW sued for 160 counts, and they lost on 65% of them. Look at it like a game: GW 56 points, CHS 104 points. That is a right spanking. CHS lost money on the points they didn't win, but they will most likely appeal those(as GW will appeal the 104 items they lost on).

And the 104 points that CHS won are not trivial matters, the biggest point in there being the shoulder pad which we now have a clear legal stance on what we can do with them which is basically use them as we want provided we don't have GW iconography 1:1 on them.

 agnosto wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

I don't know why you're so anti-GW in every single thread you can.

I'll tell you why I, personally, am anti-GW in this particular thread: Dark Reign, the site I now own, has received C&D letters in the past. Further, with this apparent defeat, at least on the areas relevant to me, I can now invest in my business without fear of serious loss and start that line of bits and ships I had been meaning to, and have a legal leg to stand on if they come calling again.

Word of friendly advice. Just be careful. Think clearly on how you proceed with your venture. Get solid legal advice from people who deal in your scope of business.

And above all good luck. Perhaps if the stuff you are wanting to produce is what I'm looking for I'll go and purchase some.

Adam

Sound advice but even that may not save you since CHS received legal advice before they started and wound up in court anyway.

Unfortunately that is the nature of doing business. Sooner or later you are probably going to go to court for one reason or another.

 Aerethan wrote:


GW sued for 160 counts, and they lost on 65% of them. Look at it like a game: GW 56 points, CHS 104 points. That is a right spanking. CHS lost money on the points they didn't win, but they will most likely appeal those(as GW will appeal the 104 items they lost on).

I would say the ability of CHS to appeal will likely hinge on whether they keep pro-bono legal representation. If a firm takes your case pro bono, are they obligated or is it commonly done good form to continue free representation for an appeal?

 insaniak wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
[Speculation here as we don't know what is in the final verdict.]

It appears that spare parts are okay, complete figures aren't, isn't that a loss for other companies specialising in 'not' figures, for example the Celtic Knight range?

It would only be a problem where those figures look enough like GW's. And, of course, where the company producing them isn't in Poland, Russia, or China...

Or look small enough to kick around with no real chance of defending themselves....

The Auld Grump

 warboss wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:


GW sued for 160 counts, and they lost on 65% of them. Look at it like a game: GW 56 points, CHS 104 points. That is a right spanking. CHS lost money on the points they didn't win, but they will most likely appeal those(as GW will appeal the 104 items they lost on).

I would say the ability of CHS to appeal will likely hinge on whether they keep pro-bono legal representation. If a firm takes your case pro bono, are they obligated or is it commonly done good form to continue free representation for an appeal?

Really the margin is bigger when you consider GW dropped 1/3 of its initial claims before it got in front of a jury.

They aren't obligated. CHS had other concerned law firms interested in representing them for both this trial and any appeals. Even if CHS current representation decides they don't want to or can't pursue an appeal, they'll assist whatever firm ends up taking lead on the appeal.


As far as the judge goes, my impression is that 99% of the cases that come before him settle out of court and so he sees anything that makes it this far as a nuisance.