Ideasweasel wrote: My hope is the faction doesn’t burn for lucius’s sins
If skittles go shooting it in points and turn to ash because of the solar flare ima be sad
Is 20 rangers in graia or agripinaa a problem
Nope
I’m in team #blameLucius
Yeah Lucius can get much of the blame, the faction traits are just too good, and the relic + warlord trait are bonkers as well. The problem is Lucius' traits are good in all situations, it's a blanket bonus. Mars has the same but it's much more balanced, first because Canticles have to be decided for the whole army, and then because the reroll is per unit, so it's limited. All the other traits happen under conditions (having charged, being half-range, shooting with Assault weapons, etc.).
My problem with Lucius is that it's evidently too good when, whenever I'm writing a list, every battle plan is improved by using Lucius. Pteraxii ? Why, a +1 save and 15" flamers are pretty swell. Fist Bots ? Solar Flare is really convenient. Radium Rumba ? Eeeh you know that +3" and +1 save... You catched my drift. Only Ironstriders seem to not benefit much from it, or Kataphrons.
Though I don't know what I would change to balance it. Maybe change the Solar Flare to only work under a certain unit size ? Teleporting a unit of 10 Corpuscarii is less frightful than 20.
Yes, Lucius is the easiest Forge World to have success with because it provides durability at no cost and allows the player to punch first with units teleporting or deep striking. The solar flare is not broken because Necrons have the exact same thing, hell even marines with 2 devastator squads sharing a drop pod can accomplish similar results. Nerfing t 3 4+ potentially 3+ save models doesn't make sense. It's like saying battle sisters are too durable. One unit will have transhuman on it but the opponent knows which unit so they can choose to shoot something else. The units that deep strike in due to the Lucius stratagem will not benefit from abilities such as transhuman, +1 ap, or turning -1 or -2 into ap 0 because it happens in the command phase.
I think Lucius has competition Mars mortal wound stratagem is great, Ryza is great, I think Stygies provides the greatest alpha strike potential allowing you to put vanguard or rangers in the perfect position with their stratagem.
Lucius is strong because it's ridiculously durable and has the best beta strike capability in the game, which makes it obscenely consistent because you are going to be hitting them really hard regardless of whether you're going first or second.
Mars and Metalica are also very strong. They definitely hit harder than Lucius, but they are less competitive in this meta. I made a ton of lists the week after the codecci was spoiled, and it became super obvious to me that it's hard to say no to Lucius. Mars is definitely the competitive Budgethammer option, since it can run dual Ferrumite Disintegrators or Icarus Dunecrawlers (yes, those are the two options).
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Aaranis wrote: Jeez Pteraxii are ENORMOUS. Only built one so far but I'm glad I only bought one box, a unit of 10 might be hard to place. Or transport.
IMO, they are still best with Mars. Being able to drop in and Wrath, instantly making back their points, is what makes them valuable.
I think there's lots of gold options in there. Yes essentially all our Skitarii Rangers and Vanguards are 10 ppm but they've got a 5++, +1 A and +1 Ld. We have a costly stratagem to have +1 to Wound with two units on a single target, one to give +1A to charging attacks (hello Dragoons and Sicarians), a 5+ FNP on a unit that's about to lose a wound for a full phase, and one to advance and charge.
These open a LOT MORE of synergies and buffs for Ryza it's amazing. Dragoons that advance and charge can make a reliable T1 charge with Ryza and their +1" charge. Ruststalkers or Infiltrators can have +2 attacks with the base stratagem and this new one.
I like it a lot and will probably be trying this out, maybe as soon as Saturday if my opponents agree.
bmsattler wrote: Pretty sure you pay 2 points-per-model for that and a couple other things, no free about it. I'm going to give the Skitarii veterans a pass.
You're also locked out of a 2nd manipulus which means no 2 units can get the range or ap ever. Which is very significant even without stacking.
The +1 A on Vanguard and Rangers is mostly irrelevant
The +1 Ld is a nice boon
but the real meat and pretty much only reason that justifies the price is the 5++.
2 pts doesnt sound much, but it adds up very, very quickly. I guess a 2k list pays roundabout 200pts for that.
Aaranis wrote: These open a LOT MORE of synergies and buffs for Ryza it's amazing. Dragoons that advance and charge can make a reliable T1 charge with Ryza and their +1" charge. Ruststalkers or Infiltrators can have +2 attacks with the base stratagem and this new one.
I like it a lot and will probably be trying this out, maybe as soon as Saturday if my opponents agree.
I agree, I think Ryza benefits the most because of the +1 attack and 5++. Lucius was already getting a 5+ or better from things like Intercessor's bolter fire, now other Forge Worlds can pay to have similar durability. Ryza vanguard can punch hard 41 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's vs marines with re-roll's to hit and wound with proper buff usage. 20 extra attacks, 5++, and immunity to blast weapons is worth 40 points in my opinion. It is also a fair trade-off 40 points is an entire squad, only 1 manipulus hurt's damage output so I can't see other factions complaining too much.
Toughness 3 models will hate Ryza vet vanguard in cc, charge me I am wounding you on 2's.
Aaranis wrote: These open a LOT MORE of synergies and buffs for Ryza it's amazing. Dragoons that advance and charge can make a reliable T1 charge with Ryza and their +1" charge. Ruststalkers or Infiltrators can have +2 attacks with the base stratagem and this new one.
I like it a lot and will probably be trying this out, maybe as soon as Saturday if my opponents agree.
I agree, I think Ryza benefits the most because of the +1 attack and 5++. Lucius was already getting a 5+ or better from things like Intercessor's bolter fire, now other Forge Worlds can pay to have similar durability. Ryza vanguard can punch hard 41 attacks hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's vs marines with re-roll's to hit and wound with proper buff usage. 20 extra attacks, 5++, and immunity to blast weapons is worth 40 points in my opinion. It is also a fair trade-off 40 points is an entire squad, only 1 manipulus hurt's damage output so I can't see other factions complaining too much.
Toughness 3 models will hate Ryza vet vanguard in cc, charge me I am wounding you on 2's.
Yeah all they need is a bit of AP in CC to be truely threatening against MEQ. Though I'm wondering if I should still worry about MEQ so much in my meta, I think there's a lot of everything so I should think more about TAC lists. Marines are not the great boogiemen anymore. Sisters, AdMech, Drukhari, all of these are T3, maybe the new Orks will shake things up if the codex is good, T5 infantry means less efficient Rangers and more useful Vanguards.
The more I read the Skitarii Veteran Cohort rules the more I see it fitting on anything but Lucius. You really want to use the +1A you pay for and so use your infantry agressively, never hesitating to charge a unit to contest and finish it off on the charge. Might be worth it to add a Taser Goad to the Alpha ? 3-4 attacks at S6 AP-1, hitting on 4+/3+, it can add a bit of punch considering you'll wound everything on 3s or 2s if you play Ryza.
I think Rangers are not very desirable in this army though, paying an extra for troops that won't see close combat is a bit of a waste in my opinion. And Vanguards are encouraged to run in big units due to ignoring the Blast rule.
I'm going to start writing a list. I just hope these rules are here to stay all edition. Might make me arm swap one or two Alphas.
You'll still need rangers.
Vanguard have no longer ranged firepower and falter if you dont give them enriched rounds and/or manipulus support. And especially the latter will be rare.
If taken in MSU, rangers are superior as they are nice to hold objectives and are still quite durable with their auto-cover. Stick in an Arquebus and you have a somewhat durable, somewhat cheap unit that can perform actions in your backfield and has some firepower, especially with Mars.
Yes, they dont gain much from the +1 A, but LD 8 base makes them all but immune to attrition which is an issue with blobs.
I still think one big blob of Vanguard is desireable, maybe a few MSU ones, but about the same amount in models in rangers as MSU is almost required.
Vanguards are not a melee unit in the first place, but a good supporting unit if an actual melee unit makes contact as well. That has always been their role imo.
For obvious reasons I have the Skitarii Veteran Cohort available and my current 1500 pts list that I plan to run has 1 Vanguard blob, 4 MSU rangers with Arquebi to reach out and touch stuff.
So a more general question...
How do you guys handle expected assault armies in list building?
E.g. how many counter charge threats do you put in? How many screening units? What are those?
Cause currently I play a lot against SWs and its tough keeping them away with all the melee threats they get and the prevalence of obscuring terrain and limited overwatches.
Thairne wrote: So a more general question...
How do you guys handle expected assault armies in list building?
E.g. how many counter charge threats do you put in? How many screening units? What are those?
Cause currently I play a lot against SWs and its tough keeping them away with all the melee threats they get and the prevalence of obscuring terrain and limited overwatches.
personally I am trying out 2x5 Hydro/Arc Breachers, 3 Dragoons, and some Rusties/Infiltrators as my melee force, I am also using 5-man skitarii squads (2 minimum) as screens if needed (note I still have 1 blob of 20 skitarii choice of which varies - but prefering the rangers). but I am not trying to go for tournaments here.
I only have 20 rangers & 20 vanguard without specials and I am not planning on getting more as I prefer the Cult Mech stuff anyways, this also mostly excludes me from running the veteran cohort AoR except in smaller games though due to lack of models.
The other half is a fusilave, a couple of onagers, some HQ's, 4 Ironstriders, and some pteraxii/serberys.
I have found on smaller boards in 9th Melee is really useful to have. the 10 Breachers can also double up as anti-vehicle, and the Infiltrators can double up as scouting units/CA for backfield objectives/secondaries etc. too.
as I said, it may not be ultra-competative, but plenty enough for a FLGS especially as I run Lucius (and have done since before Engine War...)
I've kind of run into the opposite problem. I've been playing the local shop's Crusade league, which plays 1000pts (50 PL) on a full 60x44 table. I've been undefeated, and it's almost always a tabling or concession on turn 3. I'm speed painting an Eldar army for the next league to give them a break. Similar to the 1500-2000pt lists I've advocated, I've been running this:
House Raven Superheavy Auxiliary [Knights of the Iron Cog] 3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns [+1 regen per turn, re-rolls, move speed, etc.]
I wasn't trying to crush their souls with this list, it was just the models I had to make a fully painted army. The principle culprits have been the Warglaives; they're hard to deal with at 1000pts, and the addition of canticles push them so far over the edge. I wanted to include some Infiltrators, some Raiders, and maybe a Fusilave, but my motivation dried up a bit. I don't want to be 'that guy', even if I'm running something relatively off meta.
My point is, you really don't need to worry too much about being competitive; you could put most units in the book together and end up with something decent.
I agree with Forgemaster's assessment, personally I run half my army as Knights and still include Raiders and Infiltrators. More than half my army can hold its own in melee.
Thairne wrote: So a more general question...
How do you guys handle expected assault armies in list building?
E.g. how many counter charge threats do you put in? How many screening units? What are those?
Cause currently I play a lot against SWs and its tough keeping them away with all the melee threats they get and the prevalence of obscuring terrain and limited overwatches.
My main opponents are SW and DA. for SW I've found dragoons to be great to get the charge first and help dictate the fight a little more and then blow them up to deal extra damage. For other things Bombers have been great, two bomb one squad to weaken it so i's less scary when it gets in and then use the slow down bomb on another squad to slow them down.
I've only played 1000pts at 9th but thats 3 key melee threats weakened and at that size game its a huge deal, its not perfect but it helps.
DarkHound wrote: I've kind of run into the opposite problem. I've been playing the local shop's Crusade league, which plays 1000pts (50 PL) on a full 60x44 table. I've been undefeated, and it's almost always a tabling or concession on turn 3. I'm speed painting an Eldar army for the next league to give them a break. Similar to the 1500-2000pt lists I've advocated, I've been running this:
House Raven Superheavy Auxiliary [Knights of the Iron Cog]
3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns [+1 regen per turn, re-rolls, move speed, etc.]
I wasn't trying to crush their souls with this list, it was just the models I had to make a fully painted army. The principle culprits have been the Warglaives; they're hard to deal with at 1000pts, and the addition of canticles push them so far over the edge. I wanted to include some Infiltrators, some Raiders, and maybe a Fusilave, but my motivation dried up a bit. I don't want to be 'that guy', even if I'm running something relatively off meta.
My point is, you really don't need to worry too much about being competitive; you could put most units in the book together and end up with something decent.
I agree with Forgemaster's assessment, personally I run half my army as Knights and still include Raiders and Infiltrators. More than half my army can hold its own in melee.
I think the real soul crushing was the FAQ that nerfed nothing. Keep your ad mech at home until they get the druk "point increase treatment". I really hope my orks are not the next soul crushing army out there, and hope they get the sista treatment and not the ad mech / druk treatment.
To all of you ad mech players feeling like they are That Guy when they effortlessly win turn 2 or 3, I sympathise. Ad mech has a cool concept for rules and great models, it truely is a shame they are so OP !
yeah I kinda agree - and then its a high skill floor, high skill ceiling thing.
I built the nastiest 1k Lucius list I can manage and played SW on Sunday - ended up 65/72.
No way near a Turn 2 or 3 table, it was a almost completely even matched game until the end.
So either I'm very bad, which in this case I dont think I was, or its the truth that admech is a codex with a lot of cogs and wheels, but you really have to keep the sand away for it to consistently click. Its rather hard to play good with this and mistakes punish you.
Naturally, experienced tournament players get the most out of it while we casual games dont get the same power out of it - which is worrying if nerfs come home.
Admech gets so overblown by the community its not even funny. They arent nearly on drukhari level and then bringing up sisters who were 2-4% under their winrate for the first month without even morven vahl is funny
Main problem is that all those powerful abilities are usually seen on optimal circumstances.
Therefore they make a far better impression than reality does.
Someone today on the discord was like
"1+/5++/5+++ Ignore AP 1/2, Transhuman Skitarii that auto wound on a hitroll of 4? Can they really be so broken?"
Well, yes. But you need to invest a LOT. And it leaves the rest of your army pretty barren to protect... 8 pts models.
If you read the above tho, you'll get mad. rightly so. But only if you ignore what needs to be done to get ONE unit on that level.
Ideasweasel wrote: One thing that made me pause was the art of war folks declaring fusilaves ‘dead’
To my mind they are fantastic not only in the mirror match but with sisters drukhari and orks all useful targets one would think they have some play
I guess I can see their thinking - in mirror matches striders can take them down fairly easily, as they are rather large and are tricky to hide... but they are also really useful too. I will be taking one in most of my listsa now anyways (a replacement for a Skorpius for non-LOS targets mainly)
DarkHound wrote: I've kind of run into the opposite problem. I've been playing the local shop's Crusade league, which plays 1000pts (50 PL) on a full 60x44 table. I've been undefeated, and it's almost always a tabling or concession on turn 3. I'm speed painting an Eldar army for the next league to give them a break. Similar to the 1500-2000pt lists I've advocated, I've been running this:
House Raven Superheavy Auxiliary [Knights of the Iron Cog]
3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns [+1 regen per turn, re-rolls, move speed, etc.]
I wasn't trying to crush their souls with this list, it was just the models I had to make a fully painted army. The principle culprits have been the Warglaives; they're hard to deal with at 1000pts, and the addition of canticles push them so far over the edge. I wanted to include some Infiltrators, some Raiders, and maybe a Fusilave, but my motivation dried up a bit. I don't want to be 'that guy', even if I'm running something relatively off meta.
My point is, you really don't need to worry too much about being competitive; you could put most units in the book together and end up with something decent.
I agree with Forgemaster's assessment, personally I run half my army as Knights and still include Raiders and Infiltrators. More than half my army can hold its own in melee.
Just tracking back a bit to this. What i've seen in lists is that at 2k points you push your list over a certain threshold that allows you to cover just about any threat and achieve just about any scenario. 1000-1500 is just not quite enough to reach that point. 1000 is pretty much, you have one plan and a medicore backup and you cant afford to buff that one unit into oblivion because you dont have the support to back it up. 1500 is borderline, you can have your uber unit but all you're really doing is doubling down on what you had at 1000. At 2000 that extra 500 is the straw that breaks the camels back balance wise imo. Its 500 points of 'extra' our army is pretty cheap points wise so we've just about covered all bases at 1500, we can choose to make them better at 2k or just add distractions and/or create a second backup uber unit.
Other factions are expensive, at 1500 they're just about reaching what we manage at 1500 utility and objective wise, at 2k they're comfortable. ALl the lesser aspects we used to have arent really there in lucious, we're all over durable, still shoot well, have invulns out the wazoo, above average melee and all the tricks to get them into combat and extra special weapons that give us an edge. We're overall really good, but at 2k we have the opportunity to go crazy.
How is the breachers v destroyers thing going? I know that destroyers got a little better and slightly more viable but am I right in thinking breachers are still the better choice?
Olthannon wrote: How is the breachers v destroyers thing going? I know that destroyers got a little better and slightly more viable but am I right in thinking breachers are still the better choice?
Destroyers might have use in a mirror-match - AP-3 on the main guns gets past the Logi buff, and Grav guns are not too bad either and relativly cheap - lots of shots and you are not really paying much for additional wasted strength.
but yes Breachers are generally seen as more competative at the moment (esp with Hydro Claw/Arc Rifle) due to being cheap(er) tanky units that do not need much support to function fine. I would not currently say either are truly competative though - the meta is more skitarii blobs at the moment.
In my opinion, there's no reason to run more tham a single unit of 3-5 Breachers. And with the Skitarii Veteran Cohort coming out, you can't run any in some lists.
Suzuteo wrote: In my opinion, there's no reason to run more tham a single unit of 3-5 Breachers. And with the Skitarii Veteran Cohort coming out, you can't run any in some lists.
I've yet to run Breachers with the new codex, i just look at the heavy arc rifle and i'm like....3dmg to vehicles? and only two shots? with no support? Torsion is worse but at least when that goes through i'm almost certainly wounding on 3s and dealing 4dmg if they fail an ap -4 invuln save instead of the ap -2 on arc rifle. The regular arc rifle is so much better imo, almost the same range, benefits from manipulus buffs and the same damage and ap!
It does amuse me that Breachers in melee are now power sword blenders though lol Just a shame they hit on 4s....with the little support Kataphrons have now you'd think they could have at least given them BS/WS 3 or provide some kind of Mindlock improvement. especially for 6PL per MSU thats approaching me considering taking a Disintigrator instead, with Torsion it's probably worth it because thats a 48" melta shot, but heavy arc just seems garbage now, rather take an arc rifle in a vanguard or ranger squad.
You misunderstand.
You dont take breachers for their firepower, but because they're 2+/6++ 3W T5, T6 if you use indentured machines while being obsec and able to get shroudpsalm.
They're cheap and hard to dislodge for their cost and do what they do without needing much or any support. And if you get into melee with them, you deal with Thunder Hammers basically. For 35 pts.
Torsions are usually a 1-off per unit in mars lists because they can leverage that hit reroll mars gives. And with Benediction of the Omnissiah can hurt really bad.
Noone takes them for Arc Rifles - they're just a nice bonus.
The dominus is there to give rerolls to cult mech units. A fringe case in this codex, but RR1 on Fulgs and Corpuscarii isnt that bad, especially on the latter as they roll a lot of dice.
And if you give him a relic, he can actually punch a bit in melee.
In my 2k list, I run a Marshal supporting a Ranger blob, a Manipulus to support a Vanguard blob and a Dominus to support Fulgs/corps. Luckily 10 (11) of them and a Dominus no fit inside one transport
Since Deadelosus hasn't been FAQ or removed had anyone been putting him in lists? his +1 to hit aura could still be great with a lot of the stuff in the codex and could fill some gaps left in the transition from 8th to 9th.
Ok, got a game tomorrow. Just a 500 point friendly beat em up against necrons or space wolves.
My planned list:
Lucius forge world
Dominos with volkite and macro stubber, and Solar Flare. WLT luminescent blessing, gentle
10 Rangers with arc rifle, plasma and arquebus, onmispex.
10 vanguard with arc rifle and plasma.
3 breaches with heavy arc rifles and arc claws.
5 fulgirmites.
Last time we played he managed to slaughter me in turn 2 on my own melee phase. I made some errors that let that happen, but any general tips you can give would be appreciated
Well you can't take the Arc, Plasma, and sniper all in just a 10 man squad. Go back and reread the section in the codex. It is a bit tricky, but reading that wargear section in the Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard data sheet will be valuable.
I see three separate "for every 10" statements, and a "9 or fewer" statement, so I'm 98% sure I can do it. I don't really see how you can read that in any other way.
certainly, battlescribe agrees with that interpretation, as i wrote the list on BS. I know thats not conclusive, but still......
I see three separate "for every 10" statements, and a "9 or fewer" statement, so I'm 98% sure I can do it. I dont really see how you can read that in any other way.
laam999 wrote: Since Deadelosus hasn't been FAQ or removed had anyone been putting him in lists? his +1 to hit aura could still be great with a lot of the stuff in the codex and could fill some gaps left in the transition from 8th to 9th.
Yeah its kinda ridiculous how they phased out almost all of the Cult mech side. The ONLY thing the Dominus now is good for is... RR1 for E-Priests.
Wow.
laam999 wrote: Since Deadelosus hasn't been FAQ or removed had anyone been putting him in lists? his +1 to hit aura could still be great with a lot of the stuff in the codex and could fill some gaps left in the transition from 8th to 9th.
Because they are archaeologists hunting for lost archaeotech. It does make sense because the archaeology in this case is STCs or lost tech on worlds across the galaxy. Its still archaeological in nature and they are presumably excavating it for retrieval and further study. Perhaps an archaeotechnologist would be involved once the stuff has been found and brought back on board, part of the Logi priesthood as opposed to artisans? Don't know why they put archaeologists with artisans to be honest..
Sci-fi tends to struggle a bit with archaeology, mainly because writers have zero idea what they actually do and make it more like 1920s antiquarians. More like Indiana Jones or Tomb Raider rather than say what I do for a living which is considerably more mundane
So really they're relying on the player to think up notions of tomb delving and hunting for lost artefacts when they use the term "technoarchaeologist". I guess also with 40k they want to give it a more archaic feel.
Looking at expanded my modest forces, I'm planning to get some infiltratiors. What do you guys recommend? Power swords for the sport or tasers for the higher str?
my most likely opponent for the foreseeable future runs Space wolves and Necrons, if thats a consideration. His mrs is starting to collect the Sisters, as well, which will be fun when she is ready.
at the moment, i'm leaning towards the power swords. I feel the higher AP is more valueable against the high saves my oppo will have than wounding on 3s is likely to be on his T4 troops, but i havnt math'd it out, so its more gut feeling...
xerxeskingofking wrote: Looking at expanded my modest forces, I'm planning to get some infiltratiors. What do you guys recommend? Power swords for the sport or tasers for the higher str?
my most likely opponent for the foreseeable future runs Space wolves and Necrons, if thats a consideration. His mrs is starting to collect the Sisters, as well, which will be fun when she is ready.
at the moment, i'm leaning towards the power swords. I feel the higher AP is more valueable against the high saves my oppo will have than wounding on 3s is likely to be on his T4 troops, but i havnt math'd it out, so its more gut feeling...
xerxeskingofking wrote: Looking at expanded my modest forces, I'm planning to get some infiltratiors. What do you guys recommend? Power swords for the sport or tasers for the higher str?
my most likely opponent for the foreseeable future runs Space wolves and Necrons, if thats a consideration. His mrs is starting to collect the Sisters, as well, which will be fun when she is ready.
at the moment, i'm leaning towards the power swords. I feel the higher AP is more valueable against the high saves my oppo will have than wounding on 3s is likely to be on his T4 troops, but i havnt math'd it out, so its more gut feeling...
I did the maths a while ago:
Spoiler:
First are the tasers, second are the power swords. Tasers are actually better against T4-T5 3+. They can also be buffed in more various ways, you can give them +1AP from a few different sources, more exploding hits on 5+ with stratagem, hit on S7 if you give them +1S with stratagem... Tasers are more polyvalent.
Indeed. And Infiltrators arent meant to do anything other than apply pressure. If you want something dead in melee you take Ruststalkers, if you want something dead at range even Vanguard will be better than Infiltrators.
Infiltrators are all about positioning and early screening. They still die as easily as our regular troops and cant be buffed as well as Vanguard or Rangers for shooting and if you're taking Ruststalkers one of your host of the intermediary and artefactorum goes on them for Fire Point Telemetary Cache + Temporcopia ideally.
Infiltrator counterpart in the army is really Raiders for their purpose and Raiders actually have much better staying power and better more useful shooting and mobility.
I definitely think thats underselling infiltrators, they're excellent at playing the mission, objectives, and everything not related to murder, but they can also punish your opponent for the sin of not going first so hard the game just ends immediately. 2x10 is the minimum I take in lists, and I generally wish I had more.
From todays WarCom Metawatch: "expect to see a FAQ release for Adeptus Mechanicus tomorrow dealing with some of the sharpest ends of their collective stick – in particular, large blocks of Skitarii troops and some of the interactions over-tuning Ironstrider Ballistari."
Maybe a scaling cost per ranger or vanguard? 5 man = 8 points. 6-10 = 9 points, 11+ = 22 points.
I think that most of the problems with AdMech lie in the Lucius buffs, not the units themselves. Moderately nerfing Lucius and maybe adding a scaling CP cost to the offensive troop strats would go a long way toward evening them out without making them bad.
Bluntly, what exactly did they expect from allowing 20 model squads and removing the ability for 10 model squads to double or triple up on Special Weapons?
If Plasma was such a frigging problem, they could have locked it onto Vanguard only.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Modifying vehicle strats to not affect Ironstriders would be the GW way of doing things - rules on top of rules to fix rules.
Easier just to errata 'Core' away from them.
I think taking core away from ironstriders is a viable solution but that is a serious nerf. They could give them a 5-10 point increase as they did to drukhari raiders. I think a 20 point increase to the logi order will also work basically the Chief Apothecary treatment. Enriched Rounds is our transhuman stratagem every army has/deserves a stratagem where you just are like damn that's strong, so I don't see them doing anything to it.
Those seem to be reasonable changes that still give a boost but not to the levels that were causing problems before. +50% output instead of 100% for the Galvanic Volley Fire, Enriched Rounds go down 33% and up in CP...
I'm pretty impressed, those seem to be very reasonable.
Dragoons losing core is pretty horrible, all the rest is kind of on par. Dragoons now benefit from nothing but don't do enough in the first place to warrant their points.
I'm pretty sure Lucius still comes out on top even without also benefiting from cover. We're still talking 2-3+ saves on everything.
Balistarii not being core at least brings our other anti armour into the light a little. Though they're still dead cheap by comparison.
Just started building up an AM army and of course stuff got nerfed so kinda sucks as I just bought a bunch of models :( Anyway, I bought 3 of the getting started boxes last year and am plowing through them now. I'm considering making a Skitarii Veteran Cohort and am leaning heavily to making all of my getting started bodies into vanguards over rangers. What's the general consensus about Skitarii Veteran Cohort in general? I also ordered 5 ironstriders on ebay yesterday :( Still competitive just not broken?
necron99 wrote: Just started building up an AM army and of course stuff got nerfed so kinda sucks as I just bought a bunch of models :( Anyway, I bought 3 of the getting started boxes last year and am plowing through them now. I'm considering making a Skitarii Veteran Cohort and am leaning heavily to making all of my getting started bodies into vanguards over rangers. What's the general consensus about Skitarii Veteran Cohort in general? I also ordered 5 ironstriders on ebay yesterday :( Still competitive just not broken?
Everything is still good, it's just now being severely held back from greatness. We lost a whole bunch of utility on our anti-armour which was the reasons we werent taking the other anti-armour options. Now have nothing to buff any anti-tank weapons. Engineers are a superficial buff we dont really need when a dogma can replace them in a turn where it counts the most and i'm not about to spend points on something to give one single model +1 to hit for the same reason we didn't take datasmiths when a stratagem replaces them.
We didn't really get hit too hard, but other than Fusilaves taking any of our vehicles now just feels a bit 'meh' Balistarii are still good but they're a bit of a blunt force object rather than a tool with options.
I dont think i'd take a squad of 20 vanguard now, but I would take 20 rangers now we get 50% more shots at full range, Rangers actually came out of it better than they went in imolol.
Vineheart01 wrote: tbh the only things that got nerfed severely severely needed it.
The one exception being Dragoons imo.
Admech are still lethal, just not comically lethal.
yhea, i feel like dragoons were collateral for the nerfs to iornstriders, which is a shame. I quite like the model, but they suffer so much form being the alt build of what is still one of our best units.
Yeah, i need to review what still affects them since i have 4 of them and i love the models so i insist on using them.
But even i wont use a model thats total dead weight. Same reason my killakanz have a thick layer of dust on them.
Good changes. Yeah, that brings up the relative value of Kataphrons and the Heavy Support slots. Ironstriders are still probably the most efficient output, but at least Dunecrawlers have an argument for durability now. My list hasn't changed at all.
Engineseer helps out with dense cover though, and I just like having a character sit back and then charge furiously when some deepstrike or fast units inevitably want to gain ground and close objectives
I think you guys are too sanguine about this nerf. It was pretty brutal. They nerfed everything that stands out in this army.
Keep in mind that Sisters and Drukhari are still landslide win ratio armies, and they haven't been touched.
The Acquisition nerf was the hardest and least expected change. Adding 1 to CP, sure, I could see that being fair. Capping it at 1? That means we cannot rely on blobs as a firebase anymore. (My guess is that we will see units of 10 in Drills from now on.)
I think Lucius is now a supporting Forgeworld now. There's no way to buff any of its firebase units.
Mars and Metalica probably are the best Forge Worlds now because Chickens losing Core doesn't matter as much; Mars run 6 of them solo anyway, and Metalica lets them advance and shoot without problems.
I think you're right, Suzuteo, I don't think people are really understanding all of the implications from these nerfs just yet. They may seem fine all on their own. But combined, it is pretty hard. I'm kind of in awe of how much negative outcry there was over AdMech when DEldar are still on top and Sisters are right there with them. I find it odd when AdMech definitely have clear weaknesses and require very intellectual play to make the most of their strengths...
Right. I think the only people who don't think this is a kick to the crotch plate are the people who don't actually build their lists around fundamental math.
Take Enriched Rounds by way of example. People forget that we get 6+ autowounds already with AdMech. We're paying 1 CP to go to 4+ autowounds, which is balanced by the 0 AP on the base guns. Now they want us to pay 2 CP to go to 5+ autowounds?? Not viable at all. No reason to take Vanguard as anything but MSUs now.
EXACTLY. We had 3 Strats which were army defining. Now you're just going to see 1 blob of 20 Rangers in comp lists thanks to the nerf to enriched rounds + acquisition.
We have fairly poor morale, especially considering 20 man units. With essentially only 2 morale negating strats now, I seriously doubt we'll see more than 2 large squads anymore.
Then they had the gall to not update the CP costs to volley fire for small units, which is annoying for my crusade games since I don't play hardcore lists.
Crusade lists have it relatively easy. You can still get a 20 man Vanguard blob free Enriched Rounds every round using the weapons upgrade and a couple of Archeotech pieces.
Also, take a couple tech-priests with Holy Orders - you get the CP cost reduction on strats and pay for the Holy Order upgrade with RP, not CP, so you come out ahead.
Careful, on any other platform you will get downvoted to hell and beyond. I agree so much though. Even just stating that other autowound strats are now straight up better ( they are mostly on weapons with higher ap and D, and work against vehicles) will get responses like "Id even pay 3 cp for it and it will still be busted" Some just dont understand basic maths. The rangers stratagem too, was basically double shoot ( which plenty units have), but with the twist that you have to be within half range but ignoring the movement penalty.
GW also promoted core as something to build more flavorful armies, with the example that a captain shouldnt be able to inspire a tank. And then we cant do that with ironstriders, which are basically just big cavalry units with a skitarii on top.
I think its weird when most things could have been simple points increases, but apparently GW wants Admech to be a horde faction since 8th, which is just a weird concept when you have the combination of cybernetics transhumanism and a tech-monopoly hoarding the best stuff.
The lucius change was great, enriched rounds could have been a simple 1/2 cp, same change should have been made for rangers
I definitely think that the take that Vanguard are now bad and enriched rounds is now unusable is really silly, a 20 man squad now pays 2cp to get 20 auto wounds, and still has 40 other shots to resolve, that is Quite Strong still, for sure. All the other nerfs are completely reasonable, I personally still think this faq didn't hit us hard enough, skitarii should not be 8ppm, infiltrators shouldnt be 17, etc etc
Just Reddit. But most of the people on WarhammerCompetitive talking about AdMech don't really play AdMech as their main army. They don't spend hours every week thinking of how to wring more efficiency out of their lists.
This was a gut punch. We're basically starting over in 9E because these changes totally hollow out the core of existing armies. The people saying "this is fine" have not caught on to that yet, but give it a day or two, and people will realize how much we've lost.
In any case, wondering if I want a Mars Brigade or a Mars Patrol and Outrider now. Wrath of Mars spam is basically replacing Enriched Rounds. Rangers, Raiders, Infiltrators backed by 3x1 Dunecrawlers (or Ferrumites?) and 4x2 Las Ironstriders.
Gores wrote: I definitely think that the take that Vanguard are now bad and enriched rounds is now unusable is really silly, a 20 man squad now pays 2cp to get 20 auto wounds, and still has 40 other shots to resolve, that is Quite Strong still, for sure. All the other nerfs are completely reasonable, I personally still think this faq didn't hit us hard enough, skitarii should not be 8ppm, infiltrators shouldnt be 17, etc etc
I definitely think you need to do your math.
If you don't spend the 2 CP, you still get 10 autowounds. But why bring 20-man units at all if you're not going to use the stratagem? 4x5 is much more durable and performs just as well. Especially in a faction like Mars that relies more on the dogma to confer armywide buffs.
Suzuteo wrote: Right. I think the only people who don't think this is a kick to the crotch plate are the people who don't actually build their lists around fundamental math.
Take Enriched Rounds by way of example. People forget that we get 6+ autowounds already with AdMech. We're paying 1 CP to go to 4+ autowounds, which is balanced by the 0 AP on the base guns. Now they want us to pay 2 CP to go to 5+ autowounds?? Not viable at all. No reason to take Vanguard as anything but MSUs now.
Gores wrote: I definitely think that the take that Vanguard are now bad and enriched rounds is now unusable is really silly, a 20 man squad now pays 2cp to get 20 auto wounds, and still has 40 other shots to resolve, that is Quite Strong still, for sure. All the other nerfs are completely reasonable, I personally still think this faq didn't hit us hard enough, skitarii should not be 8ppm, infiltrators shouldnt be 17, etc etc
I definitely think you need to do your math.
If you don't spend the 2 CP, you still get 10 autowounds. But why bring 20-man units at all if you're not going to use the stratagem? 4x5 is much more durable and performs just as well. Especially in a faction like Mars that relies more on the dogma to confer armywide buffs.
Sure, if you don't factor in any other buffs like only paying 5 points to ignore cover on 20 dudes in one squad of 20 instead of 20 points to ignore cover on 4 squads of 5, or the manipulus buff which is still incredibly powerful on 20 mans, or ignoring depreciation, or any of the other buffs we can put on 20 guys. Doubling the amount of auto wounds you get for 2cp is completely fair, haha
Edit: no idea why i can't get this to quote properly!
Suzuteo wrote: We're paying 1 CP to go to 4+ autowounds, which is balanced by the 0 AP on the base guns. Now they want us to pay 2 CP to go to 5+ autowounds?? Not viable at all. No reason to take Vanguard as anything but MSUs now.
Stopped reading right here, enough with jokes
1/2 CP for 4+ autowound in 1-9 and 10+ units would have been fair. Or 1 CP for 5+ autowound. It's because the Vanguard already have 6+ autowound built in. The math looks poor even in 20-man units. 7 additional saves at AP1 is like 2 more damage against a weaker target.
Gores wrote: Sure, if you don't factor in any other buffs like only paying 5 points to ignore cover on 20 dudes in one squad of 20 instead of 20 points to ignore cover on 4 squads of 5, or the manipulus buff which is still incredibly powerful on 20 mans, or ignoring depreciation, or any of the other buffs we can put on 20 guys. Doubling the amount of auto wounds you get for 2cp is completely fair, haha
Edit: no idea why i can't get this to quote properly!
Unless you are Metalica and really cannot afford the slots, I cannot imagine running 20 Vanguard at all at this point. Actually looking at 10-man units with a Plasma Caliver and Arc Rifle and MSUs with just a Plasma Caliver right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking of how to play Mars in the post-nerf era:
Solo Las Chickens seem to be the best way around the loss of Core. Benediction and the Mars rerolls pretty must obviate the need for Exemplar, and Canticles don't have a Core requirement, so you can have that turn one Shroudpsalm and Bulwark. On the plus side, you have a lot more freedom of movement here as well. On the downside, you do have to pay 3 CP for the Outrider.
Not going Veterans because I don't think I can afford it with how tight points and CP are. So Vanguard blobs are out. Focusing on Rangers and Raiders for pregame moves. They are also good Wrath spam targets.
Fusilaves for anti-hoard, Infiltrators for scout deploy and grabbing objectives early.
Questions:
1. Can Benediction and the Mars rerolls be used consecutively? As in, can I reroll a hit reroll?
2. What does everyone think is the best HQ mix? I went with a Manipulus and two Marshals, but maybe a Technoarchaeologist with Artisans makes more sense? EDIT: I gave it some thought, and yeah, probably better. Updated the list.
You can never re-roll a re-roll for any reason. I don't think you need to go solo-chickens. With the built in re-roll, Benediction, and 2+ doctrina, squads of 2 will have enough re-roll for both. I agree that Manip, Techno, and Marshall is probably the right mix. Maybe you take a second Manip instead of the Techno by preference.
I think your proposed list can at least save a CP by combining the Chickens and going to a second Patrol. I want to figure out some way to make the slots fit to save more CP, but you are just really cramped on fast attack slots.
You should also consider going with Skitarii Veterans, not for the buffs to the infantry, but for access to their strategems and effects. Getting extra turns of your chosen doctrina, or mixing them, is extremely clutch (not to mention surprise Advance and Charge on turns with your extra D6 drop the lowest canticle).
I will consider the Veterans. It is quite a few points I'd be adding in. Might go down to two Ranger units. But I am up to 9 CP, which makes me a lot more comfortable about getting some more toys.
Aren't you still hitting the rule of 3 with that list? It's 3 per army, not per detachment. Honestly, you could just go 2x3 and condense the army, saving 2 more CP. Spend the points saved from dropping the 2 Ironstriders to upgrade all the infantry to veterans.
I think the optimal version is still a Lucius + Mars combo, like we've been seeing in all the tournaments. That helps justify the extra CP spent on detachments and lets you maximize your 3x2 Ironstrider spread. You just have to take a naked Marshall to lead the Spearhead, as the least bad option. Then the rest of the army in the Lucius Battalion can have the Manip, relic Marshall, and the Techno.
Ooh, I see. Well, that's good for game balance. Yeah, then I think you have to go Veteran if you're going all Mars. From a hyper-competitive standpoint, I think you're leaving power on the table unless you're either Mars + Lucius or Mars/Lucius Veterans. I'm hearing some rumblings about Stygies Veterans, but I haven't seen a competitive Stygies list since the first round of tournaments. There was also the ~40 Lucius Siccarrian list that ran over a tournament recently, so Infiltrators will probably replace the bulk of the horde for non-Veteran armies.
All this being said, I did see an interesting top 4 finish with a Lucius Battalion and one House Raven Knight Crusader (taking +2 wound WLT and 2+ armor relic). Knight have been placing really well recently because AdMech hordes struggle against them and the Las chickens are often insufficient. Worth a consideration as a replacement for Fusilaves to supplement a lower number of chickens.
From my personal experience, a Crusader with the extra 2 wounds and regeneration is extremely difficult to finish off; it'll often out trade its threats and limp into the late game on Machine Spirit Resurgent and out-heal any remaining chip damage. I had a game where it ate 20 damage through its 4++, but regenerated and was repaired for 6 from the Manipulus (due my Metalica+Raven synergy), resulting in it staying at top bracket. Over the course of the game, it stayed in its top bracket despite receiving over 30 damage, with only one turn spent on Resurgent and one double repair.
But I think I will go back to the drawing board on this one.
I have heard about Stygies, Ryza, and Radsat Veterans too, but I am not so sure now, especially with the Acquisition nerf.
Can I see that Raven list? I really want to run a Knight, and I have no idea where to begin. So many seeming suboptimalities right off the bat. But I too have been looking at the math of Magaeras and Crusaders, and they look very good. All of the Magaera's weapons deal 3 damage.
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Raven
+ Stratagems +
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader [26 PL, 520pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord Trait (Raven): Blessed by Metalica
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber
++ Total: [103 PL, 5CP, 1,996pts] ++
I hadn't even noticed the Crusader went with the Battlecannon, and didn't even bother to take Metallica's significantly better relic version. It's certainly a list that doesn't look like it should work, and it really leans on the power of the Skitarii horde core. There are a lot of different directions it could go to adapt to the changes.
Wait, I just figured out the Battlecannon. It's a specific tech against Lucius hordes and it absolutely murders them. The new Raven strat Hammerblow makes it remain stationary, but gives full re-rolls with Blast weapons against units of 6+ models. This also applies to the Ironstorm Missilepod. All of its weapons skirt the Lucius bonus, and their combined fire averages 15.3 dead Skitarii. So, yeah, it deletes a Lucius block per turn and is virtually immovable.
It's interesting, in Lloyd's list the Crusader doesn't get much benefit from Canticles so Metallica is less important. The biggest benefit for Knights is Benediction on big melta weapons, which literally doubles their average damage. Secondarily, the extra advance and charge is handy but the Crusader is mostly forced to stand still. It turns out just to not be a great fit.
Your Mars veterans list seems really solid. I don't think there's much to improve on it. That's roughly the shape I expect competitive lists to take.
I'm at a weird impasse with my Metalica list. I think I'm going to keep my block of 20 Vanguard with the Manipulus because it's fluffy and fun, but if I wanted to go harder then I'd drop most of my infantry. I think this is the most disgusting I can make my list.
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
The Dunecrawlers and Ironstriders pick up the slack of mulching infantry from the absent Vanguard, while the Knights dominate any heavy armor. This kind of skew list would present hilarious problems for the current meta, similar to the top placing Knight lists. Nobody has the weapons to deal with it, and it's got guns for everybody. The worst match-ups might be ork hordes (we'll see if they even exist), but then the double whammy of Metalica+Fusilave movement restrictions kicks in and they become easy pickings for Pack Tactics Warglaives.
So he takes Sainted Ion and Blessed by Metalica, but not Canticles? Lol.
In any case, I am thinking Magaera (because it's the best Knight against AdMech), which can use more of the Canticles and is not as CP hungry. Wants to get stuck in, and Electromancer helps a lot.
Nice list. I actually have been thinking about this approach, but I have only 2 Warglaives and a ton of Chickens, so maybe this for me:
Spoiler:
Raven Knight Lance - 760 1x Questoris Knight Magaera - Knight of the Cog (-1 CP), Warlord: Blessed by Metalica, Armour of the Sainted Ion
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun
I'm not seeing how the knight's RFBC is picking up Lucius infantry. It's AP2 and they ignore that. Unless they are ignoring that unit and shooting at the others?
Here is my Metallica- Raven list im taking to my next major. I save CP by making the knight the warlord, but it's a trade because that takes admech relics and Warlord traits off the table.
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Raven
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Warglaives [21 PL, -1CP, 420pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
Knight Moiraxes [16 PL, -1CP, 310pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar
Questoris Knight Magaera [24 PL, -1CP, 480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: The Helm Dominatus, Knight of the Iron Cog, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
. Hekaton Siege Claw and Twin Rad-Cleanser
Suzuteo wrote: So he takes Sainted Ion and Blessed by Metalica, but not Canticles? Lol.
In any case, I am thinking Magaera (because it's the best Knight against AdMech), which can use more of the Canticles and is not as CP hungry. Wants to get stuck in, and Electromancer helps a lot.
Nice list. I actually have been thinking about this approach, but I have only 2 Warglaives and a ton of Chickens, so maybe this for me:
Spoiler:
Raven Knight Lance - 760 1x Questoris Knight Magaera - Knight of the Cog (-1 CP), Warlord: Blessed by Metalica, Armour of the Sainted Ion
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun
1x Armiger Warglaive - Meltagun
Well, he's Lucius, so he can't. It's funny that he takes Blessed by Metallica just for the extra 2 wounds without the opportunity to repair, but it makes sense; nothing else will improve that specific performance against Skitarii hordes and it pushes the wounds just high enough to give typical 6 Laschicken lists trouble killing it in one go.
In your list, you still need to pay CP for each of the Warglaives or else you lose all your canticles anyway. They're a regular Super Heavy Detachment, so they don't get Knights of the Cog for free. Just 2 Warglaives at 2k isn't quite enough, I feel. I'd just drop them and bring the Knight alone. I don't think you need Armor of Sainted Ion when you have Shroudpsalm and a 5++ in close combat, so I'd just skip the relic to save a CP. Then you can take another 5 Skitarii and bump up to a Battalion to split up the Chickens and take more stuff. You probably need a close combat threat, like a block of Ruststalkers.
bmsattler wrote: I'm not seeing how the knight's RFBC is picking up Lucius infantry. It's AP2 and they ignore that. Unless they are ignoring that unit and shooting at the others?
Exactly, they can only buff one unit, and the gun has a 72" range so you just pick another. The important thing is that it gets 12 shots and it's not damage 1. It's there to kill the 80-100 Skitarii lists, less so the 40 mans.
Fishborne wrote: Here is my Metallica- Raven list im taking to my next major. I save CP by making the knight the warlord, but it's a trade because that takes admech relics and Warlord traits off the table.
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Raven
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Warglaives [21 PL, -1CP, 420pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
Knight Moiraxes [16 PL, -1CP, 310pts]: Knight of the Iron Cog
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar
. Knight Moirax: 2x Graviton Pulsar
Questoris Knight Magaera [24 PL, -1CP, 480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: The Helm Dominatus, Knight of the Iron Cog, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
. Hekaton Siege Claw and Twin Rad-Cleanser
You're wasting a CP by taking the AdMech in a Battalion instead of a Patrol. The Magaera is overloaded because it won't often be able to provide both Helm and Landstrider to the Armigers. I find the Armigers are faster and want to get away to do their own thing anyway; they don't need the buffs (especially if they have Canticles) and it frees the Knight up the act more optimally.
bmsattler wrote: I'm not seeing how the knight's RFBC is picking up Lucius infantry. It's AP2 and they ignore that. Unless they are ignoring that unit and shooting at the others?
Yes. You can also use Fusilaves and your own Skitarii.
DarkHound wrote: In your list, you still need to pay CP for each of the Warglaives or else you lose all your canticles anyway. They're a regular Super Heavy Detachment, so they don't get Knights of the Cog for free.
Oh damn. It is Auxiliary only. This is a lot more restrictive than I'd thought. I guess I understand why he did it this way with Lucius now.
So from what I gather, Crusader is the best choice if you want to park your Knight in the backfield as a super-heavy artillery piece, and Magaera is the best choice if you want to rush them with the Knight as a Distraction Carnifex?
Suzuteo wrote: So from what I gather, Crusader is the best choice if you want to park your Knight in the backfield as a super-heavy artillery piece, and Magaera is the best choice if you want to rush them with the Knight as a Distraction Carnifex?
No, not really. The best pure Knight lists have often been 4 House Krast Crusaders. It turns out that Titanic Feet are about the right profile for virtually all infantry targets, so the Crusader is just fine in melee. In fact, you really want to engage in melee as much as possible to wring maximum efficiency out of that 500 point investment. The pure artillery Knight is the Castellan, whose worse speed and 4+ melee hit dissuade close combat.
The Magaera, on the other hand, isn't really a distraction Carnifex either. If you want that, then the Gallant or Lancer are still better. (I've been hearing and seeing a lot of great things from the Lancer, easily the best Cerastus chassis.) Anyway, the Magaera is just better at being versatile than any of the other Questoris. The Magaera is a better than the Warden, Perceptor, and Paladin against their supposed ideal targets, while also being better in close combat than them.
Suzuteo wrote: So from what I gather, Crusader is the best choice if you want to park your Knight in the backfield as a super-heavy artillery piece, and Magaera is the best choice if you want to rush them with the Knight as a Distraction Carnifex?
No, not really. The best pure Knight lists have often been 4 House Krast Crusaders. It turns out that Titanic Feet are about the right profile for virtually all infantry targets, so the Crusader is just fine in melee. In fact, you really want to engage in melee as much as possible to wring maximum efficiency out of that 500 point investment. The pure artillery Knight is the Castellan, whose worse speed and 4+ melee hit dissuade close combat.
The Magaera, on the other hand, isn't really a distraction Carnifex either. If you want that, then the Gallant or Lancer are still better. (I've been hearing and seeing a lot of great things from the Lancer, easily the best Cerastus chassis.) Anyway, the Magaera is just better at being versatile than any of the other Questoris. The Magaera is a better than the Warden, Perceptor, and Paladin against their supposed ideal targets, while also being better in close combat than them.
Right, I was speaking in the context as a supplement to AdMech. I have been impressed by the math on the Magaera's dual S7 D3 weapons as well as its ability to fight in addition to shooting.
I feel Titanic Feet fall really short against Gravis profiles. That is why I think of the Crusader as more of an artillery piece. You pretty much are trying to force your opponent to try to shoot it anyway. (Taking Metalica's Blessing without Metalica is weird, but I get it. With Resurgent, 1W is all you really need.)
But yeah, is the Crusader more relevant in this meta? If so, I think we would need to go Lucius to have a more durable midboard. If we go Metalica, we probably want something that can fight as well as shoot? That or bring Rusties in Boats or something.
My point about Krast Crusaders was to break the perception that they're artillery. They absolutely want to get into close combat, you just have to pick things they can bully. In most match-ups, they should just walk over and kick anything within 2d6". Only one or two units in most lists will give a Knight pause.
On your other point, I guess how much Gravis are you running into? I started and gave up on a third paragraph saying "now that the Gravis plague is over I think Mageara's claw is overated" but it felt unnecessary. The only Gravis I see are 3 to 6 Eradicators, and those are not dealt with by Knight melee. I definitely don't see many 3 wound heavy lists in the tournament reports, outside of Deathwing (and obviously Death Guard Terminators are resilient so don't count). Plus, if you are worried about Gravis, go with a Raven Crusader and take their relic battlecannon which is flat 3 damage.
From all my thinking about it, I don't think Metalica is good enough by itself. The other factions already find enough ways to ignore heavy/assault penalty, and none of their Warlord traits or Relics are anything to write home about. The unique benefit for Metalica is giving Canticles to Knights. At which point, you want to maximize the Knights and Canticles, and you take a Patrol of AdMech to get board control and ObSec. All my ideas lead back to exactly the style of list I play.
Otherwise I think you come back to Lloyd's list; Lucius and Mars are the better core AdMech factions, and a Knight is a tech choice or plugs a hole in your offense. If Gravis spam is really prolific, then Magaera makes sense. If you need a spearhead, a Lancer or Gallant is better than Ruststalkers in a Boat or Dragoons. A Crusader, obviously, can be equipped for a lot of roles. Honestly, though, maybe the Castellan is a better pick. If you're going to spend 5CP on a single model, spend more points.
@DarkHound
Well, the Lightning Cannon profile is also very strong in the mirror to kill Ironstriders. Also does Raiders pretty well. (S7 is the new S8.) Overall, I think we're all just looking to plug in the hole left by Ironstriders losing Core. We want 500 or so points of shooting with good rerolls. Right now, it seems like the solution is to run multiple units of 2-3x Ironstriders in Mars or to bring a Knight.
Metalica has a lot of interesting combat tricks actually. Especially all those -1T auras, which make Rangers and Ruststalkers pretty ridiculous once you give them reroll 1s to wound. But yes, in this context, the repairs and Canticles are what Metalica brings to the table, and the Enriched Rounds nerf really hurts them since we can't do Veteran Cohort here.
Quite frankly, I don't think a Castellan has the right profile. And it's very expensive, especially if you want to use the Raven stratagems.
But I think I will look into the Lucius + Knight Crusader list. May also consider looking at Mars and Stygies. Thanks for the feedback!
Honestly, the more I think about the Castellan, the more I want one for myself. A while ago I crunch the numbers on the 3CP Order of Companions and it yields at 61% damage increase against T7 3+ or 4.5 wounds per CP spent. If you're worried about 3W, you can take the relic Plasma Decimator and get flat 3 damage (you probably should anyway, it's an insanely strong relic).
That math doesn't include Cawl's Wrath (just multiply the plasma by 1.5) and doesn't account for Benediction. It's not a big change because there are so many weapons, but it can smoothe out expected results or bump the Shieldbreaker's average by 50%. The choice between Warlord traits is interesting: Ion Bulwark averages to +7 wounds, so Blessed by Metalica is better if you can heal 6 wounds (ie survive 3 turns). Plus, you can still actually invest in the 4++ if it matters (case in point in a minute).
Alright, so here's my funny idea, the same exact thing but bigger:
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Castellan, 635 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Cawl's Wrath]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
Looking at the Mars lists we've theory crafted so far, I ran the math for the mirror-match. If you spend 3CP on Rotate or Kolossi Eternal (4++) and use the Canticle to 5+++ vs Mortals, then 6 Benedicted Las Chickens, 2 Fusilaves, and Wrath of Mars plus Galvanic Fire on the Rangers with all the buffs gets something like 32 average wounds. Whoops. Turns out, you're better off spending 4 CP to reserve the damn thing for the same effect. It does still arrive on turn 2 and drops Order of Companions to kill all the Chickens and reign over the board uncontested from then on.
Anyway, there's two things to note: firstly, Mars' chickens are stronger and the addition of Wrath of Mars is uniquely suited to the task. Lucius, by comparison, yields 26 average wounds so would need to allocate literally every other stubber and small arm to get the kill. The second point is that this is the heaviest shooting available in the meta, and it almost survives. Against any other army (except maybe pure Knights), it would be uncontested.
DarkHound wrote: Anyway, there's two things to note: firstly, Mars' chickens are stronger and the addition of Wrath of Mars is uniquely suited to the task. Lucius, by comparison, yields 26 average wounds so would need to allocate literally every other stubber and small arm to get the kill. The second point is that this is the heaviest shooting available in the meta, and it almost survives. Against any other army (except maybe pure Knights), it would be uncontested.
That and forcing your opponent to dump that much firepower into a single extremely tough unit, and if he rolls even slightly cold, he's @#$%ed.
Sidebar: Someone just pointed out to me that Cache is "entirely within or on" for MODELS, not UNITS. Which is dumb because there is no difference between "within" and "entirely within" when it comes to models. So it basically is "within." Meaning it's trivially easy to get Rusties +3 to saves.
DarkHound wrote: Honestly, the more I think about the Castellan, the more I want one for myself. A while ago I crunch the numbers on the 3CP Order of Companions and it yields at 61% damage increase against T7 3+ or 4.5 wounds per CP spent. If you're worried about 3W, you can take the relic Plasma Decimator and get flat 3 damage (you probably should anyway, it's an insanely strong relic).
I'm quite a big fan of the Castellan personally! I haven't been pairing it with admech recently, just the magera and I guess the majority knights list I'm currently playing, but he's got a lot of guns and the math on him into a lot of targets is pretty good
Sadly, no. the Daedalosus sheet was officially retired in the latest FAQ.
Id go with a Techno-Archeologist to go with a squad of Kataphrons and let them shoot and perform actions, and screen deepstrikers to 12 inches, but honestly none of our HQ's really help a Cult Mechanicus heavy list very much.
LOS can be from wings tips but I’ve always played bombs from the base only. Am I being harsh to myself and missing flying over unsure with wings?
I am not a (rules) lawyer, but my take is the Fusilave does not have any rules about 'measuring from the hull' (like hover vehicles) so the bomb rack should be measured from base. You don't even have to think about it for infantry with fly-by grenades, you obviously assume base. It also makes sense, the bomb rack isn't mounted in the wings.
I've been re-inspired to work on my AdMech, so I got in two simulator games at 2k with my new vehicle skew list. The first game I ran this previously posted one with the Ironstriders.
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
I went up against an Iron Hands list with some commanders, 20 troops, 10 Bladeguard, 6 Eradicators, a Leviathan and 2 Redemptors. The first thing I noticed was I had a hard time finding targets for the Ironstriders. They're a tiny bit better against MEQ than the Phosphor Crawlers, and a tiny bit worse against T7 3+ than the Warglaives, but I already had enough of each to cover those targets. They're also the weak link in defensive profiles. They just didn't click for me. Meanwhile, I've been playing these same 5 Rangers in my local Crusade league for a couple months now and I can't get them to do much, let alone work as ObSec.
Anyway, the game was a little brutal. I got first turn, so the Raiders moved 30" (+3"M doctrina applies to pregame move) and had their choice of charging anything that survived my shooting phase. As usual, the Fusilaves moved 50", the Crusader moved 20" (Flanking Maneuver), the Warglaives and Ironstriders moved ~18", the Dunecrawlers and Infiltrators moved 11"; I had my pick of targets, so I killed the Leviathan and Redemptors. He started his turn 1 with about 1200pts, a third of which were stuck in combat with Raiders, Infiltrators, and a Full Tilted Warglaive. It took a while to grind him down, and he continued to score the objectives the whole time, but I capped my primary points on turns 4 and 5 and completed most of my secondaries.
My next game was against Dark Eldar: your typical Wyches and Incubi in Raiders, with some board control Reavers and anti-tank Scourges. I switched my list a bit to this, removing the Ironstriders and Rangers for 2x10 Vanguard:
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
This game cemented my opinion that I didn't need the Ironstriders. They're ideal for killing Raiders, but I had enough anti-tank to kill every visible Raider without them anyway. I killed 3 on turn 1 going second, again due to advance and shooting the Knights; the Crusader ran 20" around a u-shaped building and merc'd a Raider by itself. I reserved the Vanguard, and used the Infiltrators and Raiders to keep the fast attack from charging any vehicles (which were all on the edge of my deployment zone). On my turn, a lot of the Wyches and Incubi got dismounted midfield and there was nothing to charge except the Warglaives. The characters and Incubi chewed through the Warglaives, but then the Vanguard pulled up and hosed them down. My opponent killed 3 Warglaives and a Dunecrawler, but he just didn't have enough stuff left to keep fighting.
I'm extremely pleased with the armor skew. It's easy enough to reserve or hide the infantry, and they're fast enough to still contribute. The army is especially good at shutting out chip damage between army-wide 2+ armor, all the regen/repair, and 2 strats to ignore profile degradation (the AdMech and Knight ones are separate). I had totally written off my Dunecrawlers, with the Phosphor especially, but they are so consistent and they always have something useful to shoot. The change to Fusilave bombs against tanks makes a world of difference too. The list is so consistent and doesn't need to rely on the Vanguard blob, which often felt like a weak underbelly.
I can't quite play this list IRL yet, but I know what I'm doing with my store league winnings.
DarkHound, I don't understand how you're getting doctrina in those lists as having a super heavy detachment, not a super heavy aux, will remove access to canticles and doctrinas (unless I'm missing something).
It's from the Warzone Charadon Act 1: Book of Rust supplement for Metalica. The stratagem Knights of the Iron Cog lets Forgeworld Metalica give House Raven Knights Canticles for 1 CP (and Skitarii keep their Doctrinas too). That's the 3 CP I spent at the top of the Super Heavy Detachment. So yeah, not only do we keep our buffs, those Knights are running around with Benediction of the Omnissiah re-rolling their whole Thermal Lance.
I've been re-inspired to work on my AdMech, so I got in two simulator games at 2k with my new vehicle skew list. The first game I ran this previously posted one with the Ironstriders.[spoiler]Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
I went up against an Iron Hands list with some commanders, 20 troops, 10 Bladeguard, 6 Eradicators, a Leviathan and 2 Redemptors. The first thing I noticed was I had a hard time finding targets for the Ironstriders. They're a tiny bit better against MEQ than the Phosphor Crawlers, and a tiny bit worse against T7 3+ than the Warglaives, but I already had enough of each to cover those targets. They're also the weak link in defensive profiles. They just didn't click for me. Meanwhile, I've been playing these same 5 Rangers in my local Crusade league for a couple months now and I can't get them to do much, let alone work as ObSec.
Anyway, the game was a little brutal. I got first turn, so the Raiders moved 30" (+3"M doctrina applies to pregame move) and had their choice of charging anything that survived my shooting phase. As usual, the Fusilaves moved 50", the Crusader moved 20" (Flanking Maneuver), the Warglaives and Ironstriders moved ~18", the Dunecrawlers and Infiltrators moved 11"; I had my pick of targets, so I killed the Leviathan and Redemptors. He started his turn 1 with about 1200pts, a third of which were stuck in combat with Raiders, Infiltrators, and a Full Tilted Warglaive. It took a while to grind him down, and he continued to score the objectives the whole time, but I capped my primary points on turns 4 and 5 and completed most of my secondaries.[/spoiler]
My next game was against Dark Eldar: your typical Wyches and Incubi in Raiders, with some board control Reavers and anti-tank Scourges. I switched my list a bit to this, removing the Ironstriders and Rangers for 2x10 Vanguard:
Spoiler:
Total 2000pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
This game cemented my opinion that I didn't need the Ironstriders. They're ideal for killing Raiders, but I had enough anti-tank to kill every visible Raider without them anyway. I killed 3 on turn 1 going second, again due to advance and shooting the Knights; the Crusader ran 20" around a u-shaped building and merc'd a Raider by itself. I reserved the Vanguard, and used the Infiltrators and Raiders to keep the fast attack from charging any vehicles (which were all on the edge of my deployment zone). On my turn, a lot of the Wyches and Incubi got dismounted midfield and there was nothing to charge except the Warglaives. The characters and Incubi chewed through the Warglaives, but then the Vanguard pulled up and hosed them down. My opponent killed 3 Warglaives and a Dunecrawler, but he just didn't have enough stuff left to keep fighting.
I'm extremely pleased with the armor skew. It's easy enough to reserve or hide the infantry, and they're fast enough to still contribute. The army is especially good at shutting out chip damage between army-wide 2+ armor, all the regen/repair, and 2 strats to ignore profile degradation (the AdMech and Knight ones are separate). I had totally written off my Dunecrawlers, with the Phosphor especially, but they are so consistent and they always have something useful to shoot. The change to Fusilave bombs against tanks makes a world of difference too. The list is so consistent and doesn't need to rely on the Vanguard blob, which often felt like a weak underbelly.
I can't quite play this list IRL yet, but I know what I'm doing with my store league winnings.
So did you find the move to the 2 x 10 to be useful? Or would you try something else next time? I really envy people who have the time and presence of mind to play 2k matches, so many points to do what you want with we just play at a much slower pace that 2k takes us at least half a day lol
I really like armigers, just a great balance of everything.
Yeah, I realize I didn't say it explicitly but the Vanguard were game winning. They were the last little piece that pushed my anti-infantry firepower over the edge, and a 10 block with auto-advance 6" actually works as ObSec. The first list could not take an objective off an opponent unless it killed everything. In my experience, ObSec only makes a difference once or twice a game. Typically the Warglaives charge the defenders with the Vanguard behind to control the objective. The big bases of the Knights or Fusilaves will block out responses while the Vanguard will score despite being whittled down. By the time the Vanguard are dead, the vehicles will have also killed the defenders.
I should point out how ridiculously good Metalica Fusilaves are at denying enemy ObSec by slowing movement. I would go so far as to say if you're running Metalica, a Fusilave is mandatory to make Deafening Assault work. Seismic bombs cut the Dark Eldar Wyches ~18" advance and charge to 6" advance and unable to charge. Bombing a unit even 12" from an objective stops them. The Metalica strat is significantly less good by itself (the same Wyches would still have 15"), but having the additional stratagem to tag secondary targets further away reduces the opponent's chances of getting somebody to the objective. If -3" move makes the charge 10" instead of 7, they'll still probably fail, and the total distance traveled remains ~6 inches.
As for playing 2k points consistently, I think you have to externalize as many tasks as possible. I have a notebook with tons of stuff, but you can keep it very simple. At the minimum, I'd say have a guide for your turn pre-planned, have your stratagems listed by phase, and have your unit stat-blocks handy. Personally, I also have each unit's average damage against typical profiles, my list of pertinent secondary objectives, and guidelines for deployment for each unit. I also add notes to everything, such as benchmarks to be on track for scoring secondaries, and how to deploy units based on distance from objectives or enemies.
I've built up these notes principally by asking 'why did this unit die?' Don't say 'that's the nature of the game' (even though it is). For me, it's usually that I didn't think ahead to my opponent's response, which I could have mitigated. Most mistakes can be found by pursuing that question.
My typical game starts with double checking my notebook for the secondaries. I look at my deployment guidelines, and deployment takes 10-15 minutes. Then at the start of each turn I glance over my turn guide. Before I move models, I spend several minutes pre-measuring and planning my turn by looking at the secondaries scoring page and the damage outputs. There's usually only one way to be on pace for scoring, and the planning is fiddling around with mitigating my opponent's response. Then execution is automatic: in my mind, I've already allocated my command points, my shooting, and my charges. The first couple turns should take about 15 minutes each, and the last couple only a few minutes. My games tend to be 2.5 to 3 hours.
I'm definitely excited the raven+metalica combo is popular around here! Ive only got a couple of games in with it so far, but its been crushing fun. My version is a bit more extreme though, and starts with 4cp
I see what you're going for. I'm leery of spending 2 CP just to get a fifth plane, and a third Fusilave in particular seems redundant. I've experienced that Fusilaves can run out of targets to bomb. I also wouldn't worry about the planes being flimsy; with Chaff Launchers they can pop smoke for another -1 to hit, which can really screw up anti-aircraft weapons. You could drop one, save 2 CP, and go 3x2 Ironstriders for maximum output.
At that point, you can also drop the second Marshal, since you probably won't need him. You definitely want Firepoint Telemtry Cache in there. Instead of a second Marshal, you could take a Technoarc with Artisan, covering the utility of both Multitasking Cortex and Programmed Retreat. Then you can take Firepoint Telemetry Cache as your WLT and essentially net an additional 3 CP with the Artisan bonus. You can drop the spare 5 Rangers to make the points work out.
You should consider going with a Veteran cohort, too. It's a much high skill and knowledge requirement, but the additional stratagems and Doctrina manipulation are extremely powerful. That would warrant some list rebuilding though.
The last thing I'm a bit concerned about is the lack of assault options. You may want to switch those Infiltrators to Ruststalkers or something. You don't really need the board control when half your army has 50" move. Maybe you've just got enough shooting though.
For Secondaries, the AdMech Uncharted Sequencing and Eradication of Flesh are extremely good. Definitely practice or look up some discussions on Uncharted Sequencing because it can be tricky to maximize. It's an easy 9 points, usually.
With my changes, the list would be something like this:
That’s really detailed feedback. One reason I’m not running the cohort is personal opinion on expansion books. It’s one area where I feel the value for money is shocking so I refuse to pick one up (vote with my wallet) and since most GT’s in my area insist on having the books it scuppers me.
Just personal preference I know it would be stronger using it. Funny enough I forgot about my rangers brick having FTC so that was in there.
I have been a bit nervous to try the admech secondaries but I’ll give them a go in my warm up games the evening before
@DarkHound
Very similar to my own Mars list (double Patrols), only I did not bring Stratoraptors; I used Rusties in Boats instead.
I am also a big fan of 5- or 10-man Vanguard units. I think 20-man Vanguard units are the worst of all worlds for a non-Veteran Metalica unit.
I also think 2x Fusilave is mandatory in Metalica and Mars lists nowadays. The combination of Las Chickens (or Warglaives, in your case) and Fusilaves handle a lot of threats, especially with a Knight being a shooting magnet for them.
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, I realize I didn't say it explicitly but the Vanguard were game winning. They were the last little piece that pushed my anti-infantry firepower over the edge, and a 10 block with auto-advance 6" actually works as ObSec. The first list could not take an objective off an opponent unless it killed everything. In my experience, ObSec only makes a difference once or twice a game. Typically the Warglaives charge the defenders with the Vanguard behind to control the objective. The big bases of the Knights or Fusilaves will block out responses while the Vanguard will score despite being whittled down. By the time the Vanguard are dead, the vehicles will have also killed the defenders.
I should point out how ridiculously good Metalica Fusilaves are at denying enemy ObSec by slowing movement. I would go so far as to say if you're running Metalica, a Fusilave is mandatory to make Deafening Assault work. Seismic bombs cut the Dark Eldar Wyches ~18" advance and charge to 6" advance and unable to charge. Bombing a unit even 12" from an objective stops them. The Metalica strat is significantly less good by itself (the same Wyches would still have 15"), but having the additional stratagem to tag secondary targets further away reduces the opponent's chances of getting somebody to the objective. If -3" move makes the charge 10" instead of 7, they'll still probably fail, and the total distance traveled remains ~6 inches.
As for playing 2k points consistently, I think you have to externalize as many tasks as possible. I have a notebook with tons of stuff, but you can keep it very simple. At the minimum, I'd say have a guide for your turn pre-planned, have your stratagems listed by phase, and have your unit stat-blocks handy. Personally, I also have each unit's average damage against typical profiles, my list of pertinent secondary objectives, and guidelines for deployment for each unit. I also add notes to everything, such as benchmarks to be on track for scoring secondaries, and how to deploy units based on distance from objectives or enemies.
I've built up these notes principally by asking 'why did this unit die?' Don't say 'that's the nature of the game' (even though it is). For me, it's usually that I didn't think ahead to my opponent's response, which I could have mitigated. Most mistakes can be found by pursuing that question.
My typical game starts with double checking my notebook for the secondaries. I look at my deployment guidelines, and deployment takes 10-15 minutes. Then at the start of each turn I glance over my turn guide. Before I move models, I spend several minutes pre-measuring and planning my turn by looking at the secondaries scoring page and the damage outputs. There's usually only one way to be on pace for scoring, and the planning is fiddling around with mitigating my opponent's response. Then execution is automatic: in my mind, I've already allocated my command points, my shooting, and my charges. The first couple turns should take about 15 minutes each, and the last couple only a few minutes. My games tend to be 2.5 to 3 hours.
That's really helpful for me actually, it occurs to me my actual game-day planning is pretty minimal other than the plan for what my list is good at and what its weakness is. Very much fly by the seat of my pants lol. I think alot of the time comes from my always playing with close friends, the temptation (especially atm when we dont see each other often) to chew the cud and chat is usually the biggest time factor I think. Battlefield positioning is definitely one of my weaker areas as well and where I find myself making most of my mistakes where i'll end up sacrificing a unit I could really have done with not doing.
I'd totally forgotten about deafing assault as weell, I somehow presumed it was an infantry only strat lol
@Darkhound I can’t get a techno painted up on time for this GT but I have a second one coming up in a month at BrewDog HQ (for any beer lovers) will make changes then
Secondaries
I was planning on engage and retrieve oculus data. But have been giving some thought to banners
@octovol I’m also terrible at deployment and game plan
Anyone else looking at the 2ksons codex and wondering why they don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops and have arbitrary restrictions applied to get their good stuff? lol I was worried this would happen with subsequent codexes. The complexity in our codex isnt always rewarded (see: anything that isn't skitarii infantry) and the rest of the book suffers for it.
Meanwhile 2ksons and even GK to a degree everything is just buffed without all the restrictive covenants on use of stuff. Where's their janky faction nonense? lol
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Ideasweasel wrote: @Darkhound I can’t get a techno painted up on time for this GT but I have a second one coming up in a month at BrewDog HQ (for any beer lovers) will make changes then
Secondaries
I was planning on engage and retrieve oculus data. But have been giving some thought to banners
@octovol I’m also terrible at deployment and game plan
Aberdeen is a bit far for me, I keep meaning to enter some tournaments, you'd think there'd be a bunch around Nottingham, just to incentivize me to paint my stuff. I'm a very reluctant painter, its not like I don't want my stuff to look good and I like the results, I'm not a terrible painter. But it takes so so long and id rather spend that time playing games lol
I am also a very slow painter with the added bonus of being bad too haha.
Got factions for my 39 man GT this weekend. And I am the only admech player somehow! I shall look forward to bringing down the win rate to avoid further faction nerfs
Octovol wrote: Anyone else looking at the 2ksons codex and wondering why they don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops and have arbitrary restrictions applied to get their good stuff? lol I was worried this would happen with subsequent codexes. The complexity in our codex isnt always rewarded (see: anything that isn't skitarii infantry) and the rest of the book suffers for it.
All these people trying to rationalize us getting double nerfed and seriously thinking GW isn't going to power creep even more later.
I am also a very slow painter with the added bonus of being bad too haha.
Got factions for my 39 man GT this weekend. And I am the only admech player somehow! I shall look forward to bringing down the win rate to avoid further faction nerfs
You are all welcome
That's because we have nothing left to easily abuse I bet there are a lot of Sisters, they're gonna be really strong now, especially with GK and 2ksons slinging spells everywhere.
All we need is Kataphrons as core and we'd be a billion times more interesting than we are now post-neutering. I look at the non-fw-specific Tech-Priest warlord traits and relics and I'm like...oh they all require cult mech core? pass. Even most of the advanced Holy orders, most have are cult mech core. Even Crusade most of the custom arcana are cult mech core. We're feeling the pain Drukhari had the last edition where everything was linked but intrinsically separated.
Ah well, could be worse. Could be Necrons (so i'm told) lol
I am also a very slow painter with the added bonus of being bad too haha.
Got factions for my 39 man GT this weekend. And I am the only admech player somehow! I shall look forward to bringing down the win rate to avoid further faction nerfs
You are all welcome
That's because we have nothing left to easily abuse I bet there are a lot of Sisters, they're gonna be really strong now, especially with GK and 2ksons slinging spells everywhere.
All we need is Kataphrons as core and we'd be a billion times more interesting than we are now post-neutering. I look at the non-fw-specific Tech-Priest warlord traits and relics and I'm like...oh they all require cult mech core? pass. Even most of the advanced Holy orders, most have are cult mech core. Even Crusade most of the custom arcana are cult mech core. We're feeling the pain Drukhari had the last edition where everything was linked but intrinsically separated.
Ah well, could be worse. Could be Necrons (so i'm told) lol
'cron still have some gnarly stuff (and variety to boot), but yeah, I just played a game against a 'cron player Sunday and beat him 35-9, conceded in Turn 4.
Kataphrons having core would not upset the balance too much- no Kataphron blob is going to out-do the damage output of Skitarii or Laschickens in Mars. The one thing I can think would be an issue is being able to buff stack and have a nigh unstoppable core of 2+ tankboys rolling around for Obsec who can ALSO shoot well.
I think the best way to do it would be to give Core to Kataphrons in certain Forge Worlds- Metalica or Mars would make sense.
Having a Techno give it to them like the datasmith does robots would limit the amount of core floating around. Be nice if Enginseers could give core to a vehicle as well seeing as awaken machine is dead underwhelming even if it is on a dead cheap HQ. That does say something though, i'm sure other factions would kill for a +1 to hit on vehicles.
I'm kinda hoping they do Knights really well at this point to give us some nice options and flavour.
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
1) Nothing I know of. Maybe someone else here can answer this one.
2) The Skitarii Veteran Cohort Army of Renown lets Veteran Skitarii Vanguard ignore Blast. That is the only source as far as I know.
3) Correct, Doctrina are army-wide selections.
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
1) Nothing I know of. Maybe someone else here can answer this one.
2) The Skitarii Veteran Cohort Army of Renown lets Veteran Skitarii Vanguard ignore Blast. That is the only source as far as I know.
3) Correct, Doctrina are army-wide selections.
Much appreciated! Looks like my opponent omitted the 2 points per model for vets and was loosey-goosey with his other rules.
Can an admech flier legally fit in anyway on a dawn of war deployment map in 9th edition such as scorched earth
I’ve never paid too much attention but measuring them it looks like they are over no matter what the angle
FAQ clarified this:
DEPLOYING LARGE MODELS
Some large models, typically Aircraft, have wings and other parts that extend significantly beyond their base, this can make it difficult for them to fit wholly within a mission’s deployment zone, and whilst the deployment sequences of mission packs clearly state that no part of the model can overhang the edge of the battlefield, the edge of your deployment zone is not mentioned. For clarity, such models can overhang a deployment zone if it is not possible to set them up otherwise (i.e. if it is not possible to set them up without them overhanging their deployment zone), but when setting them up on the battlefield their base must still be wholly within their deployment zone.
I need some help as I am finally trying to wrap my head around fighting this book and a few things popped up from my last game.
What is giving Lucius Transhuman outside the command phase?
What is giving the protection from Blast weapons?
Doctrina are table wide and can not be chosen unit by unit, correct?
1) Nothing I know of. Maybe someone else here can answer this one.
2) The Skitarii Veteran Cohort Army of Renown lets Veteran Skitarii Vanguard ignore Blast. That is the only source as far as I know.
3) Correct, Doctrina are army-wide selections.
Much appreciated! Looks like my opponent omitted the 2 points per model for vets and was loosey-goosey with his other rules.
Cantic thrall net vet cohort trait allows you to pick a doctrina for any Skitarii core unit that applies in addition to your army wide doctrina if you have one. Or just for that unit if you havent activated a doctrina that turn.
Whoops, sorry to hear that. At least you recognize the mistakes you made. Do you have any examples to learn from? I know it's often easy to talk about in a vacuum, but it's hard to remember all the nuance when you're at the table.
So some games it was poor secondary choices and either not executing a plan to obtain them. Ie taking Raise Occulus Data but then being aggressive with infiltrators then struggling to get the last 2 quarters.
Or picking assassinate against an opponent who manages to screen out characters long enough to grind the game down.
My list to did really well when I went first. Like one game was a massacre against a friend. I actually ended up playing 3 people from our group in a 40 man 6 game tournament
I imagine I will be in goonhammer as a ‘how did he f this up’ in a few days time haha
I unfortunately had a game I 100% was going to win but clocked out. 2.45 for the game was just too tight for me. I needed that extra 15 minutes. Other GT’s I’m used to play 3 hour rounds but man even setting up deployment in record time for me was a struggle.
I also didn’t really know the nuance of the list. Like I made it. Thought about it, but hasn’t practiced enough with it for it to flow well. Sisters of battle and drukhari are not armies I get to play against often so was kinda shooting blind.
And as I was playing 5 planes what I was finding was this. I was killing stuff left right and centre. But was sometimes chasing games just by not having a physical boots on the ground presence.
Down to 4 planes I think.
Some take aways where infiltrators and serberys raiders were amazing when I played them right. Choosing smarter canticle/doctrina picks is essential. Not just having shroudsalm & +1sv turn or +bs & benediction turn. I also need to pay attention to the possible threats.
One game I over extended and got punished. Another I turtled up a bit and ended up losing on primaries and being penned in
One of my regular sparing partners ended up getting 5th so I know I can occasionally fumble a win but I just need to be more consistent
Practice makes perfect I guess ☺️
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I toyed with a Lucius/Mars combo and also tried to find space for vet cohort. Not sure how many troops I need. I’m kinda bored with rangers in large volume. I’d like one big squad for buffs bit fiddly moving through ruins and just rolling the damned dice takes ages. Some games I also only actually needed a minimum squad of 5 to sit still so 15 was wasted. Infiltrators and raiders were way more useful
It’s actually possible to do badly with admech if you are bad
Don't feel bad. I make an arse of every first game I play with a new list in this codex. AdMech is very high skill floor now. Especially if you play horde, which requires quick, deliberate play.
Sicarian Infiltrators [4 PL, 85pts] . Infiltrator Princeps (Stub/Sword)
. 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Stub/Sword): 4x Power Sword, 4x Stubcarbine
++ Total: [99 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
I took engage in all fonts, and grind them down most of the games. Followed by psychic ritual when they didn't have any psykers, or raise the banners against the death guard.
Canticles are solid gold on Knights! The Metallica strats for auto advancing 6",expanding the radiation 6" and enriched rounds are the big money makers. Hats off to my opponents for being amazingly great men. I had a blast all weekend!
So I had a quick pick up game on Wednesday against a pretty typical 1500 pts of Drucharii.
I don't have all the details because I didn't ask and nothing sounded sus, except for his explanations of the charge phase which I'll come to later. I'm still getting to grips with the new codex and my list is more of a crusade list on the competitive side than attempt to win any kind of GT, so humour me
Drucharii was rought:
Triple Patrol: Black heart, poisoned tongue, cult of strife.
10 x wyches with succubus (whip + blood dancer) in a dark lance Raider
10 true born warriors in a dark lance Raider
Archon + court (4 x slyth, 3 x ur-ghuls, 1 Lhamaen) in a dark lance Raider
Drahazar + 5 incubi in a Venom
5 x warriors in a Venom
at least 8 Reavers, as many heat lances as he could fit in that squad.
5 x Mandrakes
Think that was it, I was so late to the venue didn't have much time to prep or chew the cud lol
My list was:
Metallica Battalion
Manipulus + first-hand field testing on lance
Manipulus with Lance
Enginseer
10 x Rangers, 1 x arquebus, 1 x arc rifle
10 x Rangers, 1 x arquebus, 1 x arc rifle
5 x Vanguard
5 x Vanguard
5 x Vanguard
Datasmith with Uncreator Gauntlet + Ashrunner wlt (yes, you read that right)
10 x Ruststalkers with FPTC + Temporcopia
9 x Sterylizors
7 x Raiders
7 x Raiders
2 x Fistellans with Incendines
Disintegrator with Belleros
Mission was Priority Target (Take and hold primary) essentially 5 objectives, one in each corner and one in the middle, with limited movement of of them aside from the middle one that stays where it is. he arranged the mission in advance so I had no idea what I was getting into in advance but I think it suited me pretty well.
Secondaries
I picked the mission secondary (each person designates one of the objectives on their side as a priority, 3 pts for holding one of them, 5 for holding both per turn)
retrieve octarius data
Eradication of the flesh
Spoiler:
I figured eradication of the flesh would be a good bet given DE are pretty flimsy and there'd be a decent amount of bodies, but as it turned out most infantry was in a transport until the end of turn two so I got nothing for the first two turns but scored it pretty easy for the remaining 3. Mission secondary was almost a no-brainer, I parked my disintegrator with its enginseer babysitter on the objective most in my deployment mostly out of LoS and scored at least 3pts for every turn bar the last one as he failed to get enough dark lances to bear on it before I killed them. Managed to get it down to 1 wound turn 2 but I just double healed it next turn and he gave up on it after that as most of his raiders were either not in a position to target or down brackets so they couldnt hit well enough.
My gameplan was essentially keep robots and datasmith as a counter charge for the center objective and out of LoS of the dark lances until I could thin them out. I got first turn so I pre-moved + move and advance one squad of raiders onto the middle and another onto one of his objectives. I then advanced my ruststalkers onto my own other objective, popped FPTC and they stayed there the entire game being out of the way enough and tough enough for regular weapons to do anything.
The reavers tried to clear my raiders off the middle objective, he charged them trying to force me to vacate it with obliqua so he could move on, but this backfired as I moved towards his priority objective and scored the full 5 for that secondary in a subsequent turn. He didn't have any deep strikers bar the Mandrakes which he was using for RoD as well (He got all 4 quarters) so I steadily moved all my troops forward, being able to move all rangers without any penalty gave me so many options. I essentially replaced raiders on the middle objective with vanguard each time he cleared them off.
Turn 3 was his biggest play. He tried to move his raider full of wyches to get my ruststalkers, but I dropped the pteraxii down near the center, popped the raider with flamers plus other stuff then had the robots just flame the enter squad into nothing. A single squad of 5 vanguard took out the succubus which i'm sure felt not so great. Then Draz and his incubi essential cleared every pteraxii and troop off the center, but by turn 4 i'd already maxed my primary so I didn't need it at that point and still held 3 of the 5 without it, I just had to make sure he didn't have more than me at any point. Unfortunately, he'd dropped the 5-man on his other objective and I had nothing to get them off from that distance, the raiders there were gone by turn 2 but had done their job of stalling and holding an objective to lessen the pressure on keeping the centre, everything else was tied up dealing with the rest of the army, but that was the same story with my ruststalkers for him. So he held that one til the end.
When he reached my priority objective I had a squad of rangers and vanguard on there as well so he only managed to only contest til the last turn where there was one slyth left with the archon and a venom vs my disintegrator and enginseer, I just had to kill the slyth to contest it so he didn't get the 5 points that would have won him the match.
Turn 4 I'd already maxed primary so moved my ruststalkers to do ROD in his corner, I only got 3 in total, didn't manage to get any infantry into the bottom corner.
Take aways:
- Turns out a couple of untargetable Manipulus with str 7/8 ap -3 3/4 dmg 36" range weapons that hit on 2s are pretty good at consistently plinking out vehicles that dont have high invulns and just about anything else as well, also almost immune from being targeted by just about anything with the range they can sit and plink from with their ranger bodyguards. Arc rifles and arquebus in ranger squads also contributed significantly. Especially ap -3 arc rifles at 3 dmg.
- Datasmith was there as he's intended to be my fluffy Crusade leader with his retinue of robots, he plinked a few things with his gamma pistol but also mulched straight through a venom on the center objective dealing 12 wounds in one round of combat! Not super competitive I know but I need to try it out.
- I had intentionally not taken maybe warlord traits and relics for my HQs, Having an untargetable str 8 -3 4dmg gun that hits on 2s at 36 was surprisingly useful. But I wanted to see what the army could do with minimal support. I think going forward I'd take something to allow some form of fallback and shoot as there were numerous situations I could have done with being able to fallback and still do something. Metallica has lots of great relics and wlt, but they're all quite...in your face, which two manipulus buffing rangers dont want to be, so I think I can save some cp there. I might take necromechanic on the enginseer or something to allow the disintegrator to fall back and fire as thats a lot of firepower to not get to use as it's almost all blast.
- I'm not sure i'll take a full squad of sterylizors again, the flamers are great, but it's so hard to find space to fit them all and they're pretty damn expensive points wise too. Ive thought about infiltrators and while I think they'd be useful, they're quite inflexible in their forward deployment and quite expensive if you compare them to raiders. A raider squad can easily move 25" first turn if you need them to, or you can not pre-game them and hold them back. They have options, infiltrators as good as they are you either deployment forward and hope they dont die before they do anything or you keep thtme in your deployment, which seems a waste.
-The belleros...I dunno it didn't do loads and would do even less actively if I could have hidden it completely. But It gives me the option of eradication of the flesh every game if there's nothing easier. And everyone hates stuff that hides and shoots stuff with impunity
Overall result was 78 - 73 I think, so pretty damn close, was a great game. We both made loads of mistakes so there was a lot of leeway given on both sides.
I forgot rad saturation even existed for the entire game which would have made a big difference against Drucharii lol I think I used an Omnispex to ignore dense cover as well >.> Oh well.
Ironstriders are still very good, especially in Mars. Closer to Dunecrawlers though if you want a bit more staying power (and awakening 2 of those with Mars is not that bad either).
Vanguards are decidedly MEH now imo, the strat is basically worthless. What was the math.. 2 CP for 7 wounds?
Nah. The double nerf was too much.
Thairne wrote: Ironstriders are still very good, especially in Mars. Closer to Dunecrawlers though if you want a bit more staying power (and awakening 2 of those with Mars is not that bad either).
Vanguards are decidedly MEH now imo, the strat is basically worthless. What was the math.. 2 CP for 7 wounds?
Nah. The double nerf was too much.
2cp for 2-5 wounds on average targets for me, when you take into account hits that would wound anyway
Yeah, the math on Enriched Rounds is decidedly mediocre. That being said, I've found that units of 10 are easier to maximize the CP-efficiency and the strat is actually (almost exclusively) worthwhile against orks. Likewise, units of 10 have an easier time being eligible for Acquisition At Any Cost now that it requires "wholly within".
Vanguard are still better than Rangers at helping units capture objectives: they can advance and shoot to get to objectives faster, and can charge to provide Rad Saturation for real assault units. That doesn't shine in typical builds of Mars and Lucius, but it's much stronger in Metalica and Ryza.
Vanguard are still easily our best chaff clearer and much better at doing what they're designed to do which is run forward and put pressure on while still being able to shoot accurately.
I feel like they work better in MSU as enriched might still be double the chance to auto wound, but that chance was only 18% to begin with, if they were MW it'd be a different story.
I like Ironstriders still, but you need to give your opponent other targets because they die really really easily. The type of weapons targetting them we have no real defense against, only takes 1 or 2 anti-armour weapons and they're gone. Even primaris bolters can easily take them down in the right phase.
Be nice if we had a proper sturdy tank that had some great guns; Instead of one or the other lol
well there's the onager for that.. 11W and T7 is not stellar, but a 5++ with repairs is nice. And for 125 pts with a Neutron Laser he's not half bad - especially if you stick an enginseer behind two to repair and awaken them.
It's not great. By themselves, Sulphur Hounds don't fit into the strongest builds because they're worse at anti-infantry than Rangers. Assuming you're interested in Luminary Suffusion, there's anti-synergy because its effect is mutually exclusive with Radiant Disciples.
After you've invested your faction traits and enough Sulphurhounds to implement the combo, what's your pay off? You're investing all this to improve your anti-infantry capacity, when you could just take more anti-infantry units.
That being said, Sulphurhounds are not bad units in themselves. I could see a horde of Hounds with some Mars Striders being perfectly reasonable. Another amusing factor is that Kastelans can benefit from Radiant Disciples to be functionally T8.
On the point of tanks, I will second that Onagers with Neutron Lasers and Phosphor have performed extremely well for me. They don't have the upfront damage of the Ironstrider, but they are awful nuisance to kill.
I'm currently building up some more skitarii. What's the consensus on loadouts now?
I've noticed a lot of the 20 hordes not having anything.
I'm thinking of running 10 rangers, 10 vanguard, 5 vanguard.
Is the arquebus still seeing action for rangers? I know the arc rifle got a decent buff in the new codex, is it worth taking or is it still less compared to plasma?
Razerous wrote:But as a 70pt missile you can launch at a problem unit to reduce T by 1. Guaranteed 18"
It's offensive / defensive buffs aren't mutually exclusive, the thing you challenge doesn't have to be next to the thing that will return fire.
But they are expensive and feel slow without that free scout move. Oh and no sabres
It begs the question, how valuable is -1 T on an infantry unit compared to just getting more guns?
28 Rangers without Rad Saturation: 18.76 wounds against T4 before saves
vs
20 Rangers with Rad Saturation: 17.956 wounds against T4 before saves
3 Hounds with Rad Saturation: 9.2795 wounds against T4 before saves
That's a 45% damage improvement, which actually surprised me. So maybe the strategy has legs. There are two problems: first, the Fast Attack slots are pretty crowded, but there are several ways around this. Secondly, the top builds have demonstrated overwhelming firepower without this combo so it's almost certainly redundant. Still, it seems fun.
You probably want the Sulphurhounds in their own detachment so you can pick a more useful dogma for the rest of the army. That's not terrible because most lists were already taking a couple patrols. So, a minimum Patrol is a Marshall, 5 Vanguard, and 2x3 Hounds for 225 points and 2 CP. Maybe you take 3x5 Vanguard, for a total of 305 points. That's really not a bad package; each component is already pulling their own weight, and you'd spend 2CP for a 45% damage improvement as a stratagem.
Olthannon wrote:I'm currently building up some more skitarii. What's the consensus on loadouts now?
I've noticed a lot of the 20 hordes not having anything.
I'm thinking of running 10 rangers, 10 vanguard, 5 vanguard.
Is the arquebus still seeing action for rangers? I know the arc rifle got a decent buff in the new codex, is it worth taking or is it still less compared to plasma?
Right now, Rangers really want to be in hordes of 20 without any special weapons in order to maximize their stratagem. The Arquebus is just awful, don't even bother with it. The Vanguard are in a weird place, but throw-away units of 5 or 10 aren't unreasonable. Their stratagem got dumpstered, so special weapons may have some uses. The Arc Rifle is particularly interesting for its stratagem's utility, but there's some anti-synergy on Vanguard since it's not an Assault weapon.
Are you finding las chickens to be valuable at the moment?
I speak to some people and they suggest i cut them all from my lists. But then I play against an army like ironhands dread spam and regret not taking any
I’m still tinkering flier lists between 4-6 to try and squeeze more things in. I might just go back to that list you and I spoke about the other week
If you only face dreadnaught spam lists weapons designed to kill them will overperform and are worth more things that kill other things are worth less. This is called local meta it can have a huge impact.
Advice most players give is general - assuming I face a variety of opponent's and units based on the global meta what will be the better weapons this will skew away from dreadnaught spam (e.g. I played a six round tourney a couple of weekends ago and encountered only 2 dreadnaughts in a single round.) Optimising for dreadnaughts would weaken my list
So yes skewing your list to a local meta will help you win games but it won't help if you go to a more competitive environment or a different location.
I'm not keen on the multiple flyer list I played against a varient of it and its pretty vulnerable a lot of missions you really want to hold the midboard and I feel like you get more shooting efficiency out of our other vehicles
I’ve got a GT list deadline in a couple of days and I just can’t make up my mind
But I’m running 4+ fliers for sure cause it’s the best painted things in my army and they are fairly new.
I’m ok with it being a bit of a handicap just looking to try and optimise a bit. General list advice is welcome. Do people find Mars las chickens useful these days I wonder
Automatically Appended Next Post: And do we need melee counterpunches as admech or can we just gunline our way to the win?
Razerous wrote:But as a 70pt missile you can launch at a problem unit to reduce T by 1. Guaranteed 18"
It's offensive / defensive buffs aren't mutually exclusive, the thing you challenge doesn't have to be next to the thing that will return fire.
But they are expensive and feel slow without that free scout move. Oh and no sabres
It begs the question, how valuable is -1 T on an infantry unit compared to just getting more guns?
28 Rangers without Rad Saturation: 18.76 wounds against T4 before saves
vs
20 Rangers with Rad Saturation: 17.956 wounds against T4 before saves
3 Hounds with Rad Saturation: 9.2795 wounds against T4 before saves
That's a 45% damage improvement, which actually surprised me. So maybe the strategy has legs. There are two problems: first, the Fast Attack slots are pretty crowded, but there are several ways around this. Secondly, the top builds have demonstrated overwhelming firepower without this combo so it's almost certainly redundant. Still, it seems fun.
You probably want the Sulphurhounds in their own detachment so you can pick a more useful dogma for the rest of the army. That's not terrible because most lists were already taking a couple patrols. So, a minimum Patrol is a Marshall, 5 Vanguard, and 2x3 Hounds for 225 points and 2 CP. Maybe you take 3x5 Vanguard, for a total of 305 points. That's really not a bad package; each component is already pulling their own weight, and you'd spend 2CP for a 45% damage improvement as a stratagem.
Olthannon wrote:I'm currently building up some more skitarii. What's the consensus on loadouts now?
I've noticed a lot of the 20 hordes not having anything.
I'm thinking of running 10 rangers, 10 vanguard, 5 vanguard.
Is the arquebus still seeing action for rangers? I know the arc rifle got a decent buff in the new codex, is it worth taking or is it still less compared to plasma?
Right now, Rangers really want to be in hordes of 20 without any special weapons in order to maximize their stratagem. The Arquebus is just awful, don't even bother with it. The Vanguard are in a weird place, but throw-away units of 5 or 10 aren't unreasonable. Their stratagem got dumpstered, so special weapons may have some uses. The Arc Rifle is particularly interesting for its stratagem's utility, but there's some anti-synergy on Vanguard since it's not an Assault weapon.
I've also since realised it's an either or with the 3" anti-toughness or the Sacrificing Weaponary.. and an extra +1 Str & AP for Vanguard wins hands down.
Enriched Rounds is 1CP per 10 auto wounds, per 10 models, taken off your successful hits. That the auto wounds come with AP-1 (or AP-2) is all the better!
Volley Fire is made for Wrath of Mars. You can go down to 15-strong rangers (casualties) & with a simple marshal (no doctrinas) max out 6 MW. At 30-42" range
Ideasweasel wrote: I’ve got a GT list deadline in a couple of days and I just can’t make up my mind
But I’m running 4+ fliers for sure cause it’s the best painted things in my army and they are fairly new.
I’m ok with it being a bit of a handicap just looking to try and optimise a bit. General list advice is welcome. Do people find Mars las chickens useful these days I wonder
Automatically Appended Next Post: And do we need melee counterpunches as admech or can we just gunline our way to the win?
Melee in some form is useful again for holding an objective. I mean we have raiders/electropriests/hoplites pure gunline is gonna lose those primarys and often struggle with secondary if your opponent doesn't offer aa kill mission
Point for point Raiders are easily our best objective takers imo. T4, 4+, 5++ 2W assault weapons 4/5 attacks each at str 4 ap -1. And on top of that they can still be buffed by a Manipulus for extra range and ap on their sniper weapons and advance and charge and still shoot at no penalty.
They're not putting out the volume Rangers and Vanguard are and they're not obsec or able to perform most actions, but you can worry about that while they're holding the objective they just moved 30" T1 to claim. They're certainly pose enough of a threat that the rest of your army loses some heat.
Ah, I've not experienced Raiders as great objective takers. Their melee profile is decent for bullying Guardsman, and that's not nothing. However, you into a catch 22 with objectives involved. The things they can actually bully are almost always ObSec so you don't win the objective. Units holding objectives that aren't ObSec are usually tough hombres that'll beat the Raiders.
Right now, AdMech have such tremendous fire superiority that they can afford to forego actual melee units. Raiders and Infiltrators are fine skirmishers for finishing off crippled units, but principally they're there to control space. The act as speed bumps against enemy melee to buy time for the Rangers/Ironstriders. They don't actually cause damage as a melee threat.
If the meta shifts, or nerfs come in, such that overwhelming firepower doesn't work, then we'll see more Ryza and Stygies assault units. We do have serious melee units in Ruststalkers and Fulgerites (and maybe even Ryza Dragoons), but they've just been unnecessary so far.
DarkHound wrote: Ah, I've not experienced Raiders as great objective takers. Their melee profile is decent for bullying Guardsman, and that's not nothing. However, you into a catch 22 with objectives involved. The things they can actually bully are almost always ObSec so you don't win the objective. Units holding objectives that aren't ObSec are usually tough hombres that'll beat the Raiders.
Right now, AdMech have such tremendous fire superiority that they can afford to forego actual melee units. Raiders and Infiltrators are fine skirmishers for finishing off crippled units, but principally they're there to control space. The act as speed bumps against enemy melee to buy time for the Rangers/Ironstriders. They don't actually cause damage as a melee threat.
If the meta shifts, or nerfs come in, such that overwhelming firepower doesn't work, then we'll see more Ryza and Stygies assault units. We do have serious melee units in Ruststalkers and Fulgerites (and maybe even Ryza Dragoons), but they've just been unnecessary so far.
6-7 Raiders prevent any other models from getting on an objective, so you don't initially need them to be obsec. They can also still fire and charge after that 30" of movement so the usual 3-5 marine squads and flimsy T3 obsec you can thin out quite well before you have to really worry about them getting on the objective. Your opponent cant control an objective if they're not on it, regardless of obsec
It does depend on what you're up against as to how much of a swiss army knife Raiders are, but for their points they're decent against anything and anything T3 or T4 they still have the volume and ap to do something about and the saves and wounds to stay put. Even against high toughness they still have volume of shots and MW on wounds of a 6 to tip towards being more useful. But yeah their greatest asset is for them to be wherever you need them to be when you need them to be and still do something when they get there.
So in a slightly bizarre turn of events I’m somehow doing ok in my local gaming league. I’ve beaten some good players too. Hopefully it continues
I have another GT in a few days and I’m taking the below.
Has anyone had much experience with the codex specific secondaries and how successful have you been finding them. I tend to sometimes take flesh but am wary of the others
So far I’ve been sticking with my staple of Engage Rod and a pick depending on my fancy. But I’ve been lucky with grind occasionally, sometimes I think I need a guaranteed 3rd locked in
I'm sure it's obvious , but the plan here is to start the infiltrators mid field, move up the board with rangers supported by manipulus and marshal and breachers supported by technoarcheologist.
Technoarcheologust turns on advanced ready for t2 onwards to give the breachers a 6+++, rangers have save from canticles and doctrina and move and shoot at full stat.
dragoons hang back as counter charge, cover back lines and bully the middle if needed.
Dunecrawers sta back but move to fire babysat by engineseer show can repair and awaken twice a turn if needed.
Bombers bomb, take all fronts for me and slow down priority threats.
The list is supposed to be reasonably durable, versatile and packs both melee and shooting punch. Assassin is for teleport homers as he can be very tanky and hard to shift.
I've yet to play 2k on the tabletop in 9th due to covid so I'm very down on actual experience ATM.
You're using 2 x HQs, 2 x WLT a relic and Holy order that you can only use on one squad in your army? lol I think you might be overcommitting. As soon as that blob of 20 rangers is gone all those buffs are useless.
If I were up against that i'd be ignoring the breachers because HAR are naff this edition and Breachers couldn't hit a barn door with a bazooka. Literally the first things to die in your list will be those rangers and the infiltrators.
Eeven with a 2+ and ignoring ap1-2 they're priority target number 1 so dedicating a significant portion of firepower is a no brainer. Then you're left with a single slow-moving breacher squad per turn to do all your actions. You need more infantry pressure imo.
I'm sure it's obvious , but the plan here is to start the infiltrators mid field, move up the board with rangers supported by manipulus and marshal and breachers supported by technoarcheologist.
Technoarcheologust turns on advanced ready for t2 onwards to give the breachers a 6+++, rangers have save from canticles and doctrina and move and shoot at full stat.
dragoons hang back as counter charge, cover back lines and bully the middle if needed.
Dunecrawers sta back but move to fire babysat by engineseer show can repair and awaken twice a turn if needed.
Bombers bomb, take all fronts for me and slow down priority threats.
The list is supposed to be reasonably durable, versatile and packs both melee and shooting punch. Assassin is for teleport homers as he can be very tanky and hard to shift.
I've yet to play 2k on the tabletop in 9th due to covid so I'm very down on actual experience ATM.
Cheers lads.
There's too much bone and not enough meat on this list.
Cut a unit of Breachers, a Crawler, and the Culexus. Add 10 Ruststalkers (you need something to fight and not just countercharge) and another blob of Rangers (you need more than one unit to buff). With the spare points, maybe a MSU of Vanguard?
Further cuts are the other unit of Breachers for 10x Pteraxii or 9x Raiders. Mars is strong because of its ability to spam mortal wounds on demand at any time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, this is how I feel about competitive at this point: https://youtu.be/D20d7-7j1bQ
Hhe, I can't stand his voice but on the occasions I could suffer through it he does make a lot of good points. I have a similar love/hate relationship with Commisar Gamza
Octovol wrote: I have a similar love/hate relationship with Commisar Gamza
Something something 3D printing. Something 3D printing.
That said, I did get some 3D printed Sicarian legs and am working on more Rusties. They are brittle though. It's mostly held together by the gesso, paint, and a layer of glossy varnish then matte varnish. Haha.
FWIW, if you play ITC, FLG's 40k Championship FAQ has ruled that a Knight of the Cog counts as Adeptus Mechanicus for the purpose of the GT2021 Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment rules. So it costs only 1 CP to take a Knight in any ITC events. (Double check with the TO to see if they conform to the FLG rulings. Historically, they have, such as the "no LOS on first floor" ruling or the "if it does not sit, it does not fit" ruling.)
On that note, Castellan or Crusader? I am thinking of converting an Ordinatus to count as a Castellan. Trying to make sure all the weapon mounts are compatible.
As a knights player this really makes me sad to ask this....but what does he bring you that you can’t just do better by taking 300-600 points of ironstriders
I wish you every success but games workshop ruined knights with this edition
I’m still grieving
Automatically Appended Next Post: The obscuring rule can go suck a chode
LOW: Cerastus Knight Castigator [23PL, 460pts] Knight Lance Character, Warlord – Blessed by Metalica, Relic - Armour of the sainted Iron, Knight of the Iron Cog
LOW: Knight Preceptor [22PL, 410pts] Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Multi Laser, Exalted Court – Ion Bulwalk, Heirloom of the House – Spirit of Kolossi, Knight of the Iron Cog
LOW: 3x Armiger Warglaive [21PL, 420pts] 3 Meltagun, Knight of the Iron Cog
And there different chickens win if what you want is a straight shoot out.
I don't want that I want to hold the middle and that means I want melee capability
Also being team I don't have to worry about being on a dense terrain table
Ideasweasel wrote: As a knights player this really makes me sad to ask this....but what does he bring you that you can’t just do better by taking 300-600 points of ironstriders
Glorious melee combat, access to rerolls, a T8 4++ profile, and does not use Fast Attack slots? Oh, and the psychological boost that comes with having a giant robot with guns the size of small vehicles?
I mean, you're going to have to spend 2-3 CP on just the slots to run Chickens anyway. Might as well?
(Keep in mind that I have 10 magnetized Chickens too.)
Ideasweasel wrote: Have you found dragoon’s to work at all this edition or just too squishy?
Their durability is fine; reliable -1 to hit is rare. However, the loss of Core hurt them more than the Ballistarii. They lack a Sergeant, so they don't have as many ways to stack buffs for melee anymore. So they're ideal for use in support of a unit of Rusties (BSDT gives the Rusties Data-tether), but they can get stuck behind your infantry if you do that. Taking them in trios helps; you only need to get the lead Dragoon within 1" then.
Dominus Ashrunner, The Metallican Lung
Mechanicus Locum (-1CP), Archeotype Specialist (-1CP)
Manipulus
Engineseer Necromechanic
Mechanicus Locum (-1CP)
20x Rangers Omnispex
5x Vanguard
5x Vanguard
5x Vanguard
5x Vanguard
5x Vanguard
5x Infiltrators Tasers/Flechette
5x Infiltrators Tasers/Flechette
5x Infiltrators Tasers/Flechette
10x Rusties Transonic Blades
9x Rusties Transonic Blades
9x Raiders Data Tether
House Raven Super Heavy Aux. Detachment (-3 CP)
Castellan Cawl’s Wrath, Ion Bulwark
Knight of the Iron Cog (-1CP), Hierloom (-1CP), Exalted (-1CP)
So I think this dovetails nicely with the posts above. IMO, if you are taking a Castellan, the one thing you are actively choosing to give up is the Skitarii Veteran Cohort. Thus, you have to build a list that does not really incorporate elements that derive their strength from these things.
Sicarian spam is one such element. They are good primarily because of the ability to charge with +2 attacks after advancing, not to mention all of the buffs you can put on them from the Veteran Cohort. Without that, you might be better off with a variety of different threats.
That said, if you are going to spam Sicarians, you will need to bring a Dunerider or 2-3x Dragoon unit. This is for Broad Spectrum Data-tether to give your Sicarians the Data-tether keyword.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is a new list I came up with. It's a counter-meta Beta Strike concept, and I think it might do well against Metalica and Drukhari lists. But I am not sure. It's questionably bad? Haha.
I spend 2 CP right off the bat to deploy the Rusties directly into the midboard and the 20x Vanguard behind them. On the first battle turn, I move out the Raider blob to another objective. I then used Veiled Hunter put my Chickens into reserve if I am going first, as I usually will have nothing to shoot at. Otherwise, I use it to rearrange my deployment and push my other units further up.
The Sicarians and a Vanguard blob are basically a forward-deployed anvil. Extremely difficult for Metalica to punish because given the weird Fight Last rules; neither side wants to charge into the other's Temporcopia. Their Rusties only have a threat radius of 17" plus the charge roll, so it's unlikely they will be able to effectively contest the midboard until turn two.
Turn two is where the magic happens though. Metalica lists are constrained to use Sicarians because they take the Veteran Cohort. Meaning they will only ever have one Fight Last rule. This list has Ryza Fulgurites, which have the more reliable Electro-Shocked stratagem to confer Fight Last. (Remember, the two key weaknesses of Temporcopia are that it can only make one unit fight last, and it has a 3" range based on the bearer.) Overall, the idea of 20 deep-striking Fulgurites with a 91% chance to make a 9" charge due to the Vengeance Canticle is terrifying. The fact that attacks are effectively S9 without the +1S Canticle, S11 with it, means your opponent cannot expect to just rush out into the midboard without exposing himself to getting rolled.
Breachers are an odd filler unit. I sorta just had the points left over and wanted to make use of the Archy. I briefly considered using Plasma Destroyers, but I could not think of a situation where they would be preferred over more Las Chickens. I still might end up cutting them. Maybe put a Dunerider in to give BSDT to the Rusties and to move the Vanguard MSUs up.
Well the knights list took the toughest match up got slaughtered in most rounds but it was team format and the team took 2nd place so I happy with that
Nah. Concept list. Stygies Anvil and Ryza Hammer. Get into the midboard first and then punish them for contesting it when you Beta Strike with Chickens and Fulgurites.
U02dah4 wrote: Is it any more weird than guard having a couple of units with and the rest without.
Feels weirder when the majority do and a couple dont when it's not confered by wargear as such. I mean it's not like we're expecting to get it for free. If the two skorpius variants and 3 archeopter variants had the Onager's invuln they'd get an appropriate points increase. Having said that a bunch of units this edition got better invulns than they had before, all serbyrus and sicarians now have a 5++ instead of the 6++ they had before.
I'd be interested to hear why you're 'wrong' though, is it wrong because they don't think it's weird a couple of models in a 30+ strong roster don't have it? Or are you wrong because they think we're good enough already and our vehicles having invulns is too much? We already have a tank with a 5++, it's not unusual, I mean even Servitors get a 6++ but our best tank and only transport don't? From a lore and battlefield point of view, it makes no sense at all. From a point of view of not giving us all the toys, sure, we're in a pretty good place; But it's still annoying to have units without an invuln when the majority do.
They think my logic is flawed. They do all hate the admech strength and are normally a bit bias in the anti admech sentiment...however this case is purely the logic of well 95% of the roster have why can’t the 5%
They cited eldar factions as a counter.
Tbh I’m happy with me being wrong but it personally sits weird with me but I like structure so it’s probably that hehe
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m glad you feel the same octovol
But Eldar is the other way round isnt it? 95% of their roster has no invuln at all. In fact I can only think of Warwalkers and Warlocks/Farseers. So I don't really see what their 'logic' is. Eldar are technologically advanced but dont have invulns so no one else should?
Necrons are the same though, no invulns there either.
Dark eldar get theirs from power from pain, which all their vehicles get now anyway.
And harlequins get theirs from being super acrobatic, which vehicles aren't. They can all be explained.
Ours is from everything being built with augmentations and failovers so you blow an army off and the other systems keep working etc. That logic is no different when applied to a vehicle.
The only argument against is likely that Onager and Robots both get theirs from pieces of wargear, but I mean they just invented 'Enhanced Bionics' to give some units a 5++ in 9th. Bionics doesn't necessarily apply to non-organics hence the 'fields' but whether it's easy to argue one way or another doesn't change that all but 2~ units have invulns and it bugs me lol
I mean i'll take our 6+++ on everything from 7th back if they like And our 4++ on Onager
Octovol wrote: But Eldar is the other way round isnt it? 95% of their roster has no invuln at all. In fact I can only think of Warwalkers and Warlocks/Farseers. So I don't really see what their 'logic' is. Eldar are technologically advanced but dont have invulns so no one else should?
Necrons are the same though, no invulns there either.
Dark eldar get theirs from power from pain, which all their vehicles get now anyway.
And harlequins get theirs from being super acrobatic, which vehicles aren't. They can all be explained.
Ours is from everything being built with augmentations and failovers so you blow an army off and the other systems keep working etc. That logic is no different when applied to a vehicle.
The only argument against is likely that Onager and Robots both get theirs from pieces of wargear, but I mean they just invented 'Enhanced Bionics' to give some units a 5++ in 9th. Bionics doesn't necessarily apply to non-organics hence the 'fields' but whether it's easy to argue one way or another doesn't change that all but 2~ units have invulns and it bugs me lol
I mean i'll take our 6+++ on everything from 7th back if they like And our 4++ on Onager
Only basic skitarii had 6+++, sicarians had 5+++, priests had 5+++ alongside the 5++ ( which could be upgraded to better invulns), cawl could reroll that 5+++ and was nigh unkillable
Octovol wrote: But Eldar is the other way round isnt it? 95% of their roster has no invuln at all. In fact I can only think of Warwalkers and Warlocks/Farseers. So I don't really see what their 'logic' is. Eldar are technologically advanced but dont have invulns so no one else should?
Necrons are the same though, no invulns there either.
Dark eldar get theirs from power from pain, which all their vehicles get now anyway.
And harlequins get theirs from being super acrobatic, which vehicles aren't. They can all be explained.
Ours is from everything being built with augmentations and failovers so you blow an army off and the other systems keep working etc. That logic is no different when applied to a vehicle.
The only argument against is likely that Onager and Robots both get theirs from pieces of wargear, but I mean they just invented 'Enhanced Bionics' to give some units a 5++ in 9th. Bionics doesn't necessarily apply to non-organics hence the 'fields' but whether it's easy to argue one way or another doesn't change that all but 2~ units have invulns and it bugs me lol
I mean i'll take our 6+++ on everything from 7th back if they like And our 4++ on Onager
Only basic skitarii had 6+++, sicarians had 5+++, priests had 5+++ alongside the 5++ ( which could be upgraded to better invulns), cawl could reroll that 5+++ and was nigh unkillable
Hah, wow and all that on top of the warcom nonsense? No wonder they nerfed us in 8th lol. I started collecting admech at the end of 7th so I only had a start collecting at the time. I knew we were absurdly resilient though.
Only thing that made us halfway competetiv was weird formations which basically gave away tons of wargear options for free, ruststalkers used to cost like 34 points and rangers 13 which were basically all snipers.
We were and imo should be more of an elite type of army with some horde aspects like skitarii/servitors/skulls/zealots mixed in.
But with 8th GW drastically changed everything to make us basically guard 2.0 they changed that slightly in 9th by giving weapon buffs, primarily to skitarii.
Discovered that you cannot take Relentless Wrath in a SHAD because you do not have a House Raven Warlord while mustering the army. (The timing of the Exalted Court stratagem is before the first round.) So this is the next best thing IMO.
Ion Bulwark because I'm not made out of CP. (Using Order of Companions more than once hurts enough.) My only great fear with a Castellan is that he won't be as useful against a horde list.
Discovered that you cannot take Relentless Wrath in a SHAD because you do not have a House Raven Warlord while mustering the army. (The timing of the Exalted Court stratagem is before the first round.) So this is the next best thing IMO.
Ion Bulwark because I'm not made out of CP. (Using Order of Companions more than once hurts enough.) My only great fear with a Castellan is that he won't be as useful against a horde list.
Yeah, it depends on the rest of the AdMech list. However, the math on the Rapid-fire Battle Cannon is god awful. I went and found my math on all the guns from... 15 months ago.
Spoiler:
kills vs hordes (10+ models 1W sv5+): Battlecannon (6.7) >= Avenger = Las (T3 6.7 or T4 5.4) > Thermal (3.3)
wounds vs T4 W2 3+: Avenger (7.2) > Battlecannon (3.5) > Thermal (3.2) > Las (2.8)
wounds vs T8 3+: Thermal (7.1 at 18" or 5.5 at 36" ) > Las (5.5) > Battlecannon = Avenger (3.5)
The only reason you'd take the Battlecannon is to target Lucius Skitarii specifically (or to take one of the good relic replacements). The Battlecannon is bad against everything but light infantry, and in that case it's overpriced. If you just want an Avenger, you can save 75 points taking a Warden. Otherwise 35 points for a Thermal Cannon over a chainsword is a bargain. Plus, all Knights come with a Battlecannon built in (their feet), and even then the feet always get 12 attacks instead of 2d6!
Cold Eradication really only has a spot with a Thermal Cannon. The top picks are usually Ion Bulwark first, then First Knight (Krast), Paragon of the Omnissiah/Blessed by Metalica, and Cunning Commander. Landstrider is useful for particular strategies, like House Raven or Knight Gallants with Full Tilt.
Endless Fury is a good pick for a relic if you need anti-MEQ, and provides essentially 50% more Avenger damage. Most of the weapon relics are fine, but Knights don't really lack damage. Therefore, the top picks are usually Armor of Sainted Ion and Sanctuary.
My thinking is that AdMech are pretty weak against T8. We've only got Lascannons, and they're stretched thin being our sole anti-tank. An Errant or a Crusader's Thermal Cannon go a long way to fixing that. In that case, House Raven stands out due to Fury of the Keep and Lockstep Advance to juice damage. The relic is a 57% damage increase at range, and the strat is a further 28%, to average 11 damage before invul. Slap on Ion Bulwark and you have a build.
On the other hand, the Castellan is not something you casually incorporate. Of course it demands Ion Bulwark, and Cawl's Wrath is extremely strong. The real trouble for list building is House Raven's Order of Companions is like a 60% damage increase across the board. It's probably the most efficient use of CP in the game. You'd need to have a really specific and important reason to take otherwise. Amusingly, the Castellan does not benefit very much from Canticles so the Raven + Metalica synergy isn't a consideration.
Having said all that, yeah, I think a Castellan is probably the best pick. If you want to go insanely competitive, I think just a Lucius Skitarii carpet with a single Castellan instead of any other vehicles would ruin opponents. There are no weak spots in the list, no easy place for guns to go.
@DarkHound
You're right. A vanilla RFBC sucks. For a Crusader, Thermal Cannon is probably the way to go.
I actually think Lucius is a bit overrated now that the dogma does not stack with cover. People are sleeping on how good Stygies is. Especially Veiled Hunter and its ability to hide two units of Las Chickens or Grav Destroyers. Mars is also really strong (due to Wrath spam mostly).
On that note, I was wondering what to pair with a Knight, and I think the three-legged stool looks like this:
1. Knight Castellan or Crusader
2. Skitarii Horde: ~60 Rangers and Vanguard, 10-20 Sicarians, 9-10 Raiders
3. 2x5 Grav Destroyers
Grav Destroyers are interesting because they fill the gap between Skitarii and the Knight and are superior as a strike package type of unit. Volume AP3 fire is as good as it is rare these days. Their blind spot are T6+ multi-wound enemies with a poor save. So, Raiders. But a Knight just absolutely wrecks those. The Skitarii and Sicarians are good at holding ground and playing objectives, not to mention screening out enemies.
(Though if I were to specialize just for the mirror, probably just bring the Skitarii carpet, like you said. 2x20 Rangers and 4x20 Vanguard or something. Maybe some Las Chickens for redundancy as well.)
Suzuteo wrote: Discovered that you cannot take Relentless Wrath in a SHAD because you do not have a House Raven Warlord while mustering the army. (The timing of the Exalted Court stratagem is before the first round.) So this is the next best thing IMO.
Ion Bulwark because I'm not made out of CP. (Using Order of Companions more than once hurts enough.) My only great fear with a Castellan is that he won't be as useful against a horde list.
Oh, dang. So I guess you can't exalted court and then Headsman's Mark on a Krast knight either.
Suzuteo wrote: Discovered that you cannot take Relentless Wrath in a SHAD because you do not have a House Raven Warlord while mustering the army. (The timing of the Exalted Court stratagem is before the first round.)
Oh, dang. So I guess you can't exalted court and then Headsman's Mark on a Krast knight either.
I disagree with this reading. The regular relics also require you have an Imperial Knights Character as your Warlord, but we agree implicitly that Heirlooms of the Household ignores that restriction despite not mentioning it. If the phrase "can have one Heirloom of the Noble Houses" ignores "If your army is led by an IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Warlord", then why wouldn't it ignore "If your army is led by a HOUSE RAVEN WARLORD"? Otherwise, absolutely rules-as-written, you can't give Relics with the strat unless your Warlord is a Knight. But nobody's ever played it that way.
Granted, I made a similar argument with the original Holy Orders back before they got FAQ restricted to "your real Warlord only". GW's justification then broke the language of every WLT stratagem, so they could arbitrarily FAQ any way they want. But they haven't yet.
Suzuteo wrote:Grav Destroyers are interesting because they fill the gap between Skitarii and the Knight and are superior as a strike package type of unit. Volume AP3 fire is as good as it is rare these days. Their blind spot are T6+ multi-wound enemies with a poor save. So, Raiders. But a Knight just absolutely wrecks those. The Skitarii and Sicarians are good at holding ground and playing objectives, not to mention screening out enemies.
(Though if I were to specialize just for the mirror, probably just bring the Skitarii carpet, like you said. 2x20 Rangers and 4x20 Vanguard or something. Maybe some Las Chickens for redundancy as well.)
Mm, I think that messes up the target de-saturation. It makes sense if you're running a Crusader, which can't be your sole anti-tank. Then you still need some chickens, and at that point put anything else in. That being said, I'm not sure we need Grav weapons in particular. Rangers are just fine against MEQ.
With just a Castellan and a horde of infantry, the mid strength multi-damage weapons have no where to go. You can easily field 60 Skitarii, 3x3 Raiders, and about 20 Ruststalkers. Or if you really want to starve their mid strength weapons, go pure Skitarii with no multi-wound models. The real trick is, like we theory crafted before, in some match-ups you'd need to reserve the Castellan to avoid a coin flip loss if they have enough alpha-strike.
Suzuteo wrote: Discovered that you cannot take Relentless Wrath in a SHAD because you do not have a House Raven Warlord while mustering the army. (The timing of the Exalted Court stratagem is before the first round.)
Oh, dang. So I guess you can't exalted court and then Headsman's Mark on a Krast knight either.
I disagree with this reading. The regular relics also require you have an Imperial Knights Character as your Warlord, but we agree implicitly that Heirlooms of the Household ignores that restriction despite not mentioning it. If the phrase "can have one Heirloom of the Noble Houses" ignores "If your army is led by an IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Warlord", then why wouldn't it ignore "If your army is led by a HOUSE RAVEN WARLORD"? Otherwise, absolutely rules-as-written, you can't give Relics with the strat unless your Warlord is a Knight. But nobody's ever played it that way.
You can take Headsman's Mark if you use Exalted Court first; normal Heirlooms require you to have a Metalica Warlord "before the battle." The problem is just for the Metalica relics, which require you to have the Raven warlord when "mustering," which means while list-building.
EDIT: Now I can sorta see what you mean. I just reread my Metalica supplement and noticed that these relics are considered Heirlooms, so the stratagem works on them.
DarkHound wrote: With just a Castellan and a horde of infantry, the mid strength multi-damage weapons have no where to go. You can easily field 60 Skitarii, 3x3 Raiders, and about 20 Ruststalkers. Or if you really want to starve their mid strength weapons, go pure Skitarii with no multi-wound models. The real trick is, like we theory crafted before, in some match-ups you'd need to reserve the Castellan to avoid a coin flip loss if they have enough alpha-strike.
This is a fair point. Reserving a Castellan is a bit ridiculous though. But I guess the idea of the high-low mix is that any army that has enough anti-vehicle to kill the Castellan probably doesn't have enough to kill the horde.
Actually, it should be particularly good against the typical Mars + Lucius tournament lists. They often have about 600 points invested in Laschickens and anti-tank, which are almost useless against the horde. By reserving the Castellan, you're playing basically a mirror match for one or two turns. Then the Castellan shows up and glasses the opposition and reigns unopposed for the rest of the game.
I'm also not sure they have the same luxury of reserving their alpha strike to counter attack. If the Castellan comes in first, it can still vaporize a couple squads of Skitarii. It makes me think if alpha striking the Castellan is the right play often enough, then maybe you take Cold Eradication for a 28% damage bump and not worry about its survival beyond that.
Putting a Castellan into reserves does seem like a pretty cool way to avoid it getting alpha'd off the board, but 4 command points is a pretty real price. 28% increase from cold eradication, how much is that on top of using Order of Companions?
Are Castellans, overall, not nerfed into the ground any more? I had one when they were 605 points and 6 months later they were 700. Now that they are 635, are they reasonable?
If you're bringing a Castellan, it's going to use all your command points. Order of Companions is an average 67% damage increase over all. With Cold Eradication, you could call it a 115% damage increase. At that point, the Volcano Cannon has an average 26 damage before invuls. Bear in mind, you can get the effect of Cold Eradication with the Raven strat Lockstep Advance for 3CP. You can just keep pouring CP into the Castellan and it will continue to get stronger.
Order of Companions: Plasma 7.8775632 2 Siegebreakers 4.85576 Volcano 20.360106 Shieldbreaker 2.37276 ==35.5
Castellans are tentatively good again. There have been several top 4 placements by Raven Castellans lately, both mixed and pure Knight. The most important part of their success is that the top armies (AdMech and DE) are bad against T8. If Space Marine Eradicators were ever meta again, the Castellan would be hard to justify. The worst match-up right now would probably be Sisters of Battle, but I have basically no experience playing against them to theorize anything. The trouble is that they're basically a glass cannon (if you could call any Knight that). They're only 2 wounds tougher than a Crusader or Magaera for 33% more points.
DarkHound wrote: The trouble is that they're basically a glass cannon (if you could call any Knight that). They're only 2 wounds tougher than a Crusader or Magaera for 33% more points.
Yeah, I definitely feel this. One of the main players in my group of friends almost always takes an eldar Scorpion superheavy grav tank, which can of course be put into cloudstrike reserves for something like 1 command point, and that is a concern for any knight I take.
Knight of the Iron Cog, from Metallica, that is essentially the same as regular Knight of the Cog, but you get canticles in return for having to be specifically Metallica and pay 1 command point?
You're correct about Knights of the Iron Cog, with the caveat that it can affect all the Knights in a Super Heavy Detachment (paying 1CP each). Compared to Knights of the Cog which only affects one Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment.
DarkHound wrote: Actually, it should be particularly good against the typical Mars + Lucius tournament lists. They often have about 600 points invested in Laschickens and anti-tank, which are almost useless against the horde. By reserving the Castellan, you're playing basically a mirror match for one or two turns. Then the Castellan shows up and glasses the opposition and reigns unopposed for the rest of the game.
I'm also not sure they have the same luxury of reserving their alpha strike to counter attack. If the Castellan comes in first, it can still vaporize a couple squads of Skitarii. It makes me think if alpha striking the Castellan is the right play often enough, then maybe you take Cold Eradication for a 28% damage bump and not worry about its survival beyond that.
But 4 CP. Oof. At least a Crusader is only 3 CP to reserve. And if we're bringing Stygies, it's 1 CP for Veiled Hunter to reserve two units of Chickens.
I don't really like the castellan as an answer to admech specifically, if you reserve him the opposing chickens also just sit behind obscuring terrain and if your opponent doesnt have 630 points of chickens hes playing with more points than you while your cast and his chickens do nothing, then when the cast hits the board they just stay behind the obscuring terrain and shoot your cast with impunity because they can benefit from obscuring and the cast can't. He'll get to pick up a squad of something then get shot from behind obscuring till dead. Obv this is all terrain dependent
The trouble with your analysis is that the game isn't decided by the Chickens vs Castellan shoot-out. It only matters in so far as you can affect the infantry actually scoring objectives. The chickens are extremely slow at killing infantry (about 1 per lascannon), and they can't fight in melee to help contest objectives, unlike the Castellan which kills 20 per turn.
It takes 8 chickens to kill a Castellan in one round, and they're usually taken in 6 or 9. If the Castellan can see even one squad, its Volcano Cannon alone kills 2 and essentially buys it an extra turn of shooting infantry. If the Chickens say 'screw it' and come forward to help kill the infantry, the Castellan can kill virtually all of them in one shooting phase. That leaves it the rest of the game to kill a block of infantry per turn. Therefore, the chickens have to hide far out of LoS from any table edge, which limits their ability to kill infantry early.
If the opponent has 6 chickens (which is the more common build), you just play conservatively on turn 1. On turn 2 the Castellan shows up and glasses a horde. On turn 3, it glasses another and you're comfortably ahead on bodies. The difference maker is that Chickens can't kill or contest infantry fast enough. You should score max primary on turns 4 and 5.
If the opponent does run the full 9 Chickens, you do the same thing, except the opponent has one less horde and the Castellan kills one less horde. You still end up ahead on bodies and scoring going into turns 4 and 5.
@Gores
1. There is no way someone can hide 8-9 Chickens from an outflanking Castellan.
2. Nobody is bringing 8-9 Chickens at this point because they are too afraid to fall behind on infantry.
@DarkHound
3. I'm not sure if reserving the Castellan is worth it, even if they have 8-9 Chickens. I would just spend the CP on the infantry portion of my army, which is 2/3s of the army. Plus, it's 50/50 that I go first and get to wipe a block of infantry off the board. Two if the Chickens flub their rolls.
Suzuteo wrote: @DarkHound
You're right. A vanilla RFBC sucks. For a Crusader, Thermal Cannon is probably the way to go.
I actually think Lucius is a bit overrated now that the dogma does not stack with cover. People are sleeping on how good Stygies is. Especially Veiled Hunter and its ability to hide two units of Las Chickens or Grav Destroyers. Mars is also really strong (due to Wrath spam mostly).
On that note, I was wondering what to pair with a Knight, and I think the three-legged stool looks like this:
1. Knight Castellan or Crusader
2. Skitarii Horde: ~60 Rangers and Vanguard, 10-20 Sicarians, 9-10 Raiders
3. 2x5 Grav Destroyers
Grav Destroyers are interesting because they fill the gap between Skitarii and the Knight and are superior as a strike package type of unit. Volume AP3 fire is as good as it is rare these days. Their blind spot are T6+ multi-wound enemies with a poor save. So, Raiders. But a Knight just absolutely wrecks those. The Skitarii and Sicarians are good at holding ground and playing objectives, not to mention screening out enemies.
(Though if I were to specialize just for the mirror, probably just bring the Skitarii carpet, like you said. 2x20 Rangers and 4x20 Vanguard or something. Maybe some Las Chickens for redundancy as well.)
I like the thinking on Stygies. Gives the Skitarri portion of the list a little staying power as well as some movement shenanigans. Going to try the following this week.
Spoiler:
Stygies VIII Battalion (-2 CP)
Manipulus Artisans, Veiled Hunter
Warlord
Marshal Exemplar’s Eternity, Firepoint Telemetry Cache
Mechanicus Locus (-1CP)
Castellan Cawl’s Wrath, Ion Bulwark
Knight of the Cog, Hierloom (-1CP), Exalted (-1CP)
Thoughts? Thinking burn 2CP pre game to infiltrate the two squads of Rusties. Between the Infiltrators, Rusties and Raiders, should be able to pressure the mid-board and the opposing deployment zone pretty quickly.
I am still trying to figure out Stygies. But I think a Stygies list would want:
1. Raven Crusader or Warden, since the starting CP is even lower than you would see with a Mars + Raven. Maybe even a Krast Magaera.
2. 2x3 Las Chickens, which can be placed in reserve with Veiled Hunter.
3. Multiple Skitarii units, maybe 10x Vanguard units with Omnispexes. They're surprisingly resilient with Dense Cover. (Reminds me of Lucius hordes a few months ago.)
So, I have friend that plays mostly drucharii covens, I've no idea whathe's actually playing but I thought i'd check what I might be up against....So Prophets of Flesh. Thats for real right? They intentionally gave the entire army free transhuman and all their important stuff gets a free wound heal once per turn as well? And people are still pointign the finger at us...like wow. They could give us back all the stuff thats been nerfed since 9th and it not even come close to free army wide transhuman lol
Edit: Dont one of the ork factions get this as well, if memory serves?
Which is just about everything that isn't a lascannon or melta, 90% of all army factions weapons AND melee attacks are forced to wound on a 4+. Every weapon you'd want to shoot at anything that isn't a Raider or Talos can only wound on a 4+. I know they're supposed to be somewhat durable, but they already have 6++/5+++ and are as tough as marines. At least their regular saves are crap so rangers with a manipulus will force save on the obsec stuff. But Talos....those things are gonna be tough to take down.
I guess we throw Ruststalkers, maybe robots, priests and bombs at everything, again. Or we're just expected to blanket everything with a crapload of shots again and rely on the numbers to get failed saves and fnps, which is really getting to be a tiresome 'tactic' it was boring with robots it's still boring now. The RNG should be a mitigating factor, not a mechanic we rely on. I suppose I should be grateful we actually have the tools to deal with it this time around instead of it just being a hard counter. Just irks me all the hate we get when stuff like that is ignored. Maybe its not as big a deal as I think but I know for sure its a huge deal when we do it to a single T3 unit with Lucius so having a whole army like that, for free, with no thought involved. Tactics are out the window there.
Razerous wrote: Is there no love for Sacrified Weaponary with Rad-Saturated forge worlds?
A nunch of Str 4/5 AP-1/-2 radium carbines at 8ppm.
Seems really good? Folk don't seem to go for it.
Its mainly because most of our army-power comes from the relics, wlt and strategms of the main forgeworlds. The Dogmas are nice and helpful but mostly just icing of Forgeworld-specific cakey goodness. The ones that do work are when you have a bunch of stuff that doesn't benefit all that much or ising going to be using the FW specific stuff. Like a data-hoard servo focused auguries detachment full of chickens and stratoraptors for instance. Our troops need quite a lot of support, so if you put them in a specific detachment to benefit from custom fw traits you lose the ability to buff them, and if you make it your main detachment you lose all the buffs.
The main issue with the custom forgworlds is that they dont come with their own set of custom relics, wlts and strategms and the basic ones aren't good enough and/or don't support the custom FW playstyles enough to warrant losing access to the main FW ones. The best of our FW are when the dogma, relic, wlt and strategm are all themed and work together to support a certain playstyle. Its why Mars (reliable quality shooting + canticles), Metallica (high mobility debuffs) and Lucius (high flexibility and resilience) are so popular everything works well together. The custom forgeworlds are very niche in their function and only really work as secondary detachments for units that dont benefit from a main FW but specifically benefit from the custom fw.
Scarifying weaponry in particular can be done in Metallica with a master anhiliator warlord manipulus if it was a key part of your strategy, and that also allows your vanguard to advance and fire at no penalty AND auto advance 6". You cant do it to a whole bunch of units like the custom fw, but you also then dont get the mobility you get from Metallica and you dont really need that many Vanguard units imo. They're only one more shot than rangers, which you can get from a strategm anyway, so the targets for our Vanguard are those with high T and good invulns that rangers struggle to wound.
I see that reasoning as being counter intuitive as you're advocating the use of a WLT to replicate a free detachment wide benefit, whilst suggesting the FW options instead.
The options are either WoM (which is insanely good, plan on using it), and anything Lucian (Trait, relic, WLT). Also the non-locked options seem plenty good?
My thoughts is that the 18" range of Vanguard could be too small, hence why you see massed blocks of Rangers? That firepower though, do some heavy lifting.
Razerous wrote: I see that reasoning as being counter intuitive as you're advocating the use of a WLT to replicate a free detachment wide benefit, whilst suggesting the FW options instead.
The options are either WoM (which is insanely good, plan on using it), and anything Lucian (Trait, relic, WLT). Also the non-locked options seem plenty good?
My thoughts is that the 18" range of Vanguard could be too small, hence why you see massed blocks of Rangers? That firepower though, do some heavy lifting.
Did I? Maybe i'm not explaiing myself well enough. What I mean is that most of the bonuses from custom FW have better versions from wlt, relics and holy orders and you generally dont need them army wide as only a few units benefit from the custom ones. Whereas the named FW tend to have a more cohesive structure to the dogma/relic/wlt combinations. For example the expansionist FW gives +1 ap in melee when you charge and heavy weapons can be fired without penalty when moving. But assault weapons still have that penalty for advancing unless they're on a vehicle. Whereas the Metallica FW allows all units to advance and fire assault at no penalty and move and fire all heavy weapons without penalty. There are other less reliable ways to improve melee AP, but generally the units that you actually want to buff for fighting already have good ap (Ruststalkers, Infiltrators, Fulgurites, Robots) and the ones that would benefit from more ap after charging you generally won't be charging with (Sterylizors, Raiders, Corpuscarii)
So there are some very niche benefits for the custom FW, but are often more of a flavour preference than a competitive edge and losing access to the main FW wlt and relics rarely makes competitive sense and can often be overcome using a strategm or something for the rare occasion you actually need a buff on a specific unit.
So I've been having some issues up against IF marines and occasionally DE where I can't seem to damage his units while my own drop like flies. I'm certain I'm just doing something wrong but was hoping you guys could give some of your thoughts on what I'm thinking of using.
Spoiler:
Lucius Battalion Detachment - 1500
HQ - 150 Skitarii Marshal - Exemplar's Eternity
Tech Priest Manipulus - Logi, The Solar Flare, Luminescent Blessings
Your list looks solid, nothing out of place. You should try to take Firepoint Telemetry, even though you're Lucius, for the extra +1sv when on terrain.
I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that you're committing to moving forward too early. A lot of inexperienced players feel like if they aren't moving forward, they're making a mistake by wasting time. You have time to get capped scores, even if you only start scoring on turn 3. Instead, those players come forward and their army can't attack ideal targets, therefore it fights inefficiently. Their forces are now in range of the enemy, who can bring their whole army forward and fight the right targets at full efficiency. Thus, you end up on losing trades.
Make sure your opponent can't attack their preferred targets and wait, even at the expense of some primary scoring. Practice timing your counter-attacks around the arrival of your reinforcements on turn 2. You can reserve 2x10 Vanguard for 1 CP, potentially use Circuitous Assassins on the Ruststalkers for another, and Deepstrike the Sterylizors. Then you only have to hide the two units of Rangers, and keep the Ironstriders far in the back. With the addition of Solar Flare, you should have all the ability in the world to alpha strike your opponent on turn 2.
Once you've sprung your trap, target the enemy units that would retaliate against your infantry. Again, you don't need to be ahead on points the entire game, you have time to cap your scores later (if you plan for it). Skitarii hordes win attrition matches with a decisive opening salvo that cripples their opponent's ability to kill infantry fast enough.
Ah, yup, the same consequence and solution. Yeah, I started playing pure Craftworld Eldar for my local league the past couple months (second place!) and it reinforced my views on patience and reserves. I'm playing my AdMech again to practice for the league start next week. I play Metalica with House Raven Knights, so I've got similar mobility to my Eldar, but the power difference is night and day.
With the Eldar, I use reserves, LoS ignoring weapons, and Fire and Fade to poke and prod. With careful positioning, I can kill enough and avoid any retaliation. Then I can commit and start winning on turn 3. With my AdMech, everything coming in on turn 2 and getting their ideal targets is backbreaking and the opponent's usually near-tabled on turn 3.
In some match-ups, I'm spending 4 CP to reserve my Knight Crusader and my infantry. It honestly makes me reconsider Fusilaves since I can't hide them, and they can't bomb from reserve. But in practice, really only Mars Laschickens can deal with them, so eh.
New "quarterly " rules update, which has new points values for admech. I haven't worked out what's changed but I assume some of our toys have been priced up.
Niiai wrote: How much point increasesare that in a competetive army in a ballpark estimate?
Well you can only take 3 flyers now so max +60 from that lol. Probably save some points bringing more cheaper models in from elsewhere.
The raider increase hits me pretty hard. 20ppm for a model that dies to a stiff breeze makes them less appealing, especially if you compare them to the 19ppm of sicarians.
But Knight remains unchanged, so it became relatively stronger as a shooting platform.
I dont think a Raider is worth more than double a Ranger tbh, but they were certainly too cheap before. a similar +2ppm increase as sicarians would have been appropriate instead of the +4 mammoth increase.
I'm also not jazzed about a 10pt Omnispex, 10pt data tether I can see because it has huge wide-reaching benefits even above the standard +1 ld, but 10pts to ignore Light cover? There are so many cheaper ways to increase AP that it feels too much imo.
I'm also not convinced Infiltrators are equivalent to Ruststalkers. 18ppm for Infiltrators I think.
I'd have liked to have seen Core go on Kataphrons, or at least make the cult AoR give it them or something, while they could interact with the rest of the army the 4+ bs/ws was not great but serviceable, without the ability to buff them they're just an expensive meatshield.
We don't know what they've done to everyone else in CA though, so if everything is going up across the board then stuff like Raiders might make sense.
I'm also a little annoyed there's no PL increases. I play crusade with my friends and my 49PL Crusade force went from 1051 to 1140 whereas my friends Drucharii is 50PL but 250pts less than mine. For a system thats supposed to make it generally easier to balance quickly they dont seem to bother making it fair. Just because it's not in a comoetitive scene doesnt mean it should be unbalanced.
Eh, the only change I'm annoyed about is the +5 on Data-tether and Omnispex. I liked the models and 10pts is too much. My list with only 1000pts of AdMech went up 100 points. I wasn't taking the meta configuration, but basically every unit I did use got hit. I just have to keep in mind it's 5% change, or just over 4% after I compensated, so nothing to get bent out of shape over.
I don't think we are actually back to the drawing board. The stuff that was too good is still good enough, outside of very specific spam lists (mostly 27 Raiders or 4+ flyers).
Spoiler:
Total 1995pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, Meltagun, 480 [Warlord; Ion Bulwark; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
My list basically went -1 Fusilave, +10 Vanguard, which was something I was already considering. The second Fusilave wasn't bad, but I've been struggling with ObSec and was considering the change anyway. With the Knights counting as extra bodies, I expect to have a massively easier time scoring primary. There were a lot of situations where my opponents could kill just enough Vanguard to flip the objective. Hell, I can even just dip a Vanguard's toe into an objective held by the Crusader and make it awful to retake.
For secondaries, I think the Knight change also puts Strangehold back on the menu alongside Engage. I need to experiment more with Banners, but RoD has been reliable with the two Infiltrators. Then I've got Grind Them Down, Bring It Down, and No Prisoners depending on the opponent.
In my experience, even a token Raider unit disrupts the enemy's deployment plans by threatening a turn 1 charge. If they lose the roll-off, I pop +3" move Doctrina and zip into their backline to tag some anti-tank. I'm playing an armor skew list, so they can't afford to waste a turn falling back. If they do bubble wrap, that'll often hamper their ability to move into the midfield. I don't think I want 2 units, because they're otherwise just Engage fodder or bubble wrap. Pre-nerf, I've had two turn games where the Infiltrators and Raiders get in immediately and the Knights advance around the edges with Benediction. The opponent starts his turn 1 with slagged Dreadnoughts and infantry stuck in fruitless melee, with only time to clear the shock troops before the Knights arrive.
So....I was looking at a Mechanicus force as a narrative thing, and more than anything I kind of want to do a legio cybernetics style force.
A spearhead of 3 x 6 robots, each with a datasmith and a dominus in charge fits 2000 points pretty well but does seem unwieldy just with functionally only having 3 game pieces.
If I was to try it, does anyone have any advice on general tactics, weapons loadout, forge world/army of renown, relics and warlord traits based on that model set?
locarno24 wrote: So....I was looking at a Mechanicus force as a narrative thing, and more than anything I kind of want to do a legio cybernetics style force.
A spearhead of 3 x 6 robots, each with a datasmith and a dominus in charge fits 2000 points pretty well but does seem unwieldy just with functionally only having 3 game pieces.
If I was to try it, does anyone have any advice on general tactics, weapons loadout, forge world/army of renown, relics and warlord traits based on that model set?
If you want to go robot heavy and narrative-wise strong, I suggest running 3 very different robots, because their style changes a lot with different load out and protocols despite the similar look.
One shooting unit that later on plants on a middle / back objective + a datasmith and dominus perhaps
One flexible unit with Flame, Phosphor and a fist + a datasmith and maybe Cawl / Dominus supporting where needed
One melee unit with fists and flamers rund straight and cause mayham, characters probably cant follow if you arent lucius.
Edit: Depending on points you may need to drop a few robots ( one that you dont want to buff as much, like the melee threat one) to fit some troops and other flexible units (I suggest one deepstriking, and one forward deployment one, as control is your main issue and gives you some flexibility and fun in tactics)
I was thinking on going for one maximum dakka, one melee focus and one balanced, and I agree that the latter us going to be my crisis piece so it makes sense to use the dominus with that one as it'll get rerolls via the domins/datasmith pairing.
2 datasmith dominus pairs is so.thing I hadn't thought of, and us probably better than 1 dominus and a datasmith per unit.
I do get the suggestion of other stuff, and throwing in kataphron servitors is a much better tactial choice, I suspect because troops. I'm just not sure I want to.
Edit:
heh.
That works nicely.
One squad 2 x fist and flamer
One 2 x phosphor and fist
One 3 x phosphor
Datasmith/Dominus pair each for the latter two whilst the first runs at people to punch them and for the sake of it an auxiliary detachment with UR-205
Razerous wrote: Does the Solar Flare relic impact units firing heavy weapons?
Appreciate the strategems does, as it deploys the unit as per strategic reserves.
Thanks
Yes. Units coming on as reinforcements always count as having moved (rules for reinforcements, in the move phase section). The wording of The Solar Flare is "unit...can be removed form the battlefield and set back up...". I would say that makes it clear they come on following the same rules as other units coming on via deep strike rules.
Soooo what's everybodys opinion on a Raven Castellan with Metallica giving him full cabticles. What would a decent list look like considering how much more expensive our toolbox got?
We've discussed the Castellan a lot in the past few pages. You can control F it and go page by page for more information.
I play Raven+Metalica and the big draw is Benediction of the Omnissiah and Invocation of Machine Vengeance. The Castellan doesn't really benefit from either of these. I honestly don't think it's worth the CP.
You bring a Knight Castellan to use Order of Companions. The strat is +60% damage, it's the most efficient use of CP in the game. Consequently, you have to warp your AdMech build around all that CP investment, including relics and traits for the Knight.
The Castellan has a new benefit: now that Mechanicus' anti-tank is nerfed, none of the top builds can kill a Knight in one turn. I would even skip Ion Bulwark for Cold Eradication.
For the AdMech side of the build, I don't know what's best now. It might be worth skewing target saturation by going all infantry with just the Knight. All their mid strength weapons get wasted. Or you can double down on vehicles and overload them that way. I think the latter takes better advantage of the metagame, but I might be biased since that's what I already play.
DarkHound wrote: We've discussed the Castellan a lot in the past few pages. You can control F it and go page by page for more information.
I play Raven+Metalica and the big draw is Benediction of the Omnissiah and Invocation of Machine Vengeance. The Castellan doesn't really benefit from either of these. I honestly don't think it's worth the CP.
You bring a Knight Castellan to use Order of Companions. The strat is +60% damage, it's the most efficient use of CP in the game. Consequently, you have to warp your AdMech build around all that CP investment, including relics and traits for the Knight.
The Castellan has a new benefit: now that Mechanicus' anti-tank is nerfed, none of the top builds can kill a Knight in one turn. I would even skip Ion Bulwark for Cold Eradication.
For the AdMech side of the build, I don't know what's best now. It might be worth skewing target saturation by going all infantry with just the Knight. All their mid strength weapons get wasted. Or you can double down on vehicles and overload them that way. I think the latter takes better advantage of the metagame, but I might be biased since that's what I already play.
Thx, completely missed that section.
Anyways: Had a game today
The above mentioned Raven Castellan w cold eradication + the Stygies section :
6x5 skitarii,
2 Marschalls,
2x5 infiltrators
1x10 + 1x5 Ruststalker
2x1 ac-chickens
2x1 Fusilave
Didn't know what I would be playing against: ended up to be Guard with
3 tank commanders
3 basilisks
3 inf squads
2 chimera
1 hellhound
1 knight paladin
We rolled for the mission and got vital intelligence
I got first turn and got some charges off w the rusties binding stuff in combat for quite a few turns. Castellan did kill 1,5 Leman russ, that was it.
But big misplay from me moving him up front to get better line of sights, which resulted in the paladin charging him in his 1st turn after he already got some heavy damage from the basilisks and remaining plasma russes. Reaper chainsword did bring him down.
So... End of round 1 and I lost more than 1/4 of my army and most of my firepower. Yikes.
Over the course of the game all I killed was his infantry, 1 tank commander and the 3 chimera chassis. Also I got tabled in turn 5
Did Win 83:62 tho got full primary and middle range scoring on Rod, engage and bring it down while denying him any primaries until turn 4.
In this case Stygies saved my mechanical @$$
What are people's thoughts on the Skitarii Warlord Traits? What's good?
Is it a good idea to equip data tethers to multiple squads, when running 2-3 bog blobs, to allow you to mix & match the buffs. This is in conjunction with the Host strategem.
And is the Raiment a must have relic? And is this in addition to the Battle-sphere or instead?
All the traits are useful, though some are more niche. The most universally useful is Firepoint. Battle-sphere and Retreat are next most useful, but you can get their effects else where. Usually you just need one source of the effect, so I don't usually see Raiment and Battle-sphere.
You're not generally mixing and matching buffs, but you do want tethers for easier access to Marshall and Veteran Cohort buffs. You don't usually need to stack more than 2 on a unit, typically provided by themself and a Marshall.
What do we think about the new secondaries? I have to shift some points around to fit a sixth Infiltrator on each squad or combine them to 10 for the new Retrieve Data. I'm not sure any other changes demand a shake up, but I haven't dug in yet.
I currently have an army composition that includes a trio of skitari troop blobs (3x20) supported by characters. Lucius FW.
I want to field a trio of Amegier Warglaives, acting as a tough mobile counter punch. To me they seem cost efficient enough to justify the 3CP, lack of house benefits & not getting AdMech synergies. Do you folks agree or have better suggestions?
I think 3 are great, but I'm biased: I run 4. Bear in mind, GT rules added a clause that Super Heavy Aux cost 1cp if the detachment shares a specific faction keyword. The point was to let Tau, Orks, IG, etc. run their super heavies. Most major tournaments have ruled Knights of the Cog counts as sharing a keyword for that rule. I think RAW it doesn't quite work, but ask your opponents and tournament organizers.
They don't get their house benefits, but you can make one a Freeblade and they get access to stratagems. You'll want to mark Warglaives as Krast or shooting Armigers as Vulkner for their stratagems. The Freeblade can be ObSec, and all the Armigers count as 5 models since the last patch (they just don't get ObSec unless they're pure Knights).
Really review the strats, they'll take a lot of practice to maximize. Flanking Maneuver and Full Tilt will catch a lot of opponents unaware. Pack Hunters and Pack Tactics are critical, and I could go on, but I've talked at length in the Knights thread.
Yeah, it's different tools for different tasks. I had a couple matches tonight at 50PL because the first game was brutally short. It was a perfect example of the first turn charge tricks I talk about. My opponent deployed conservatively, as you can see. However, I won the roll-off and selected Invocation of Machine Vengeance and Aggressor Doctrina. My Raiders on the right flank moved 30" directly in front of his right Leman Russ, butchered the infantry and charged the tank. My Knight and Warglaive both advanced for pretty easy Full Tilt charges. The combined fire of my Knights killed his Demolisher commander. Then my Warglaive made the easy charge to tag his remaining Russ and Chimera.
I swear, it sounds like I tell this story every time. He started turn 1 with his tanks destroyed or in melee, and still more Knights were just outside his deployment zone. He got to move an infantry squad and fall back a little bit. Then I tabled him on the top of turn 2. Invocation of Machine Vengeance is absolutely busted with Full Tilt. The combination of speed on the Warglaives and Raiders demands truly ridiculous deployment concessions. You could get a similar effect with instead more Raiders, some Stratoraptors, and Ironstriders using Dunestrider, with Ruststalkers as a second wave pressure.
Yeah, I was just having a conversation about this with some folks in my local area (as I'm sure many are doing today). It seems the local reaction is (1) at least its only 1 shot that can hopefully miss (2) vehicles aren't meta right now and the submunition strategem can only be used once per turn, or (3) looks like we might need to start using more reserves/reinforcements/infiltrate/deepstrike/etc to try to ensure our anti-armor can get atleast 1 round of shooting off at it.
Tbh I hate that it exists at all. The railgun should be awesome, but to put something like that on a 72" range unit that flies can have its BS improved and gets an inbuilt RR1 is frankly just breaking an already broken ruleset. They may as well just throw the rule book out at this point for what good it does anyone. 6-12 unsavable wounds for rolling 2 dice and getting a 3+ on both? And they can have 3 of those? If anything that one gun alone puts all other vehicles firmly out of meta. At least light vehicles can be plausible given most new anti tank weapons can reliably deal 4-6dmg anyway so they're not hit as hard. But transports, knights all dreadnaughts and any other battle tank might as well not be there.
Hey guys, I'm tinkering with some changes to my army list and I'd like some input. I'm trying to add more LoS ignoring options to compliment my aggressive opening playstyle (you can see in my last post above). I've been playing a lot of games against Custodes and Crusher Stampedes where I can't just over-run them with the first turn. In these cases I can generally out maneuver and soften them up. I'm trying to lean into that with a Belleros Disintegrator and an Ironstorm launcher on the Knight, in addition to my Fusilave.
I don't have a Disintegrator and don't have much experience with it. Statistically, the three units are just enough to cripple Hive Guard and make their double shooting strat inefficient. Beyond that, the three will significantly pressure small units scoring Engage or actions. I'm just not sure about the Belleros. I'd normally run a second Phosphor Dunecrawler, and they perform extremely well for me.
Spoiler:
House Raven Super-heavy Detachment
Crusader, Meltagun, Ironstorm, 495 (Warlord: Ion Bulwark; Fury of the Keep) [Knight of the Iron Cog -1 CP]
2 Warglaives, Meltagun, 280 [Knight of the Iron Cog -1 CP]
2 Warglaives, Meltagun, 280 [Knight of the Iron Cog -1 CP]
1055
The list is an irrelevance its pre changes and drops just over 180pts. That's a huge power drop if you wanted to take essentially the same list again Post changes even a player that skilled will see a big drop in performance
U02dah4 wrote: The list is an irrelevance its pre changes and drops just over 180pts. That's a huge power drop if you wanted to take essentially the same list again Post changes even a player that skilled will see a big drop in performance
What are you talking about? Here's the list he ran, it's using the current points.
Coincidentally, it does answer my question about Belleros Skorpiuses.
Anyway, no, this list is not indicative of some hidden well of potential. Siegler designed it to play extremely well into the precise meta of one particular tournament and it is not a flexible TAC list otherwise. If you took this to your local shop, you'd get stomped relentlessly, partly because it's difficult to pilot, and mostly because it lines up awfully into anything BESIDES Custodes/Wracks/Tyranids.
Amusingly, I think Siegler's list would do terribly against Armiger spam.
That better not be his list, because those Rangers and Vanguard are not listed as "Veterans"...and it's mandatory to do so in a Skitarii Army of Renown. This is how it should be reading. Total Models: 93 Total PL: 96
Kanluwen, the list you wrote is totally wrong. What I posted isn't literally the official transcript he turned into the LVO. However, the list payed the correct points for everything. Your list has the wrong number of models, upgrades, and power levels. A 5 man Veteran squad doesn't gain a PL, and a 19 man squad (which both of his big blocks are) only gain 1 PL. Plus two of his Ruststalker squads have 8 models and the Manipulus is a Logi.
And yeah. We settled this elsewhere. I had the wrong numbers on some of it, that's why it looked wrong. Because I don't expect people to just go one model shy of the cap on Rangers and bare minimum on Vanguard.
Additionally, you'd still be bumping the PL by 1 for the Veterans keyword on Vanguard.
I listed the PL correctly in all cases, and mentioned the +1PL in my last post. There is no rule that increases the PL of a 5 man squad. That online tool is hilariously wrong. You can't trust official GW apps to be correct. It shows the Veterans squads as being 3 PL at 5 men, 6 PL at 10, 9 PL at 15, and 12 PL for 20. If we disagree about anything else, we know that it should be 10PL for 20, therefore the tool is wrong.
I'm only really feeling the nerfs with the PL changes. I've been playing Crusade almost exclusively for a while now, and in fact I'm the event organizer at the local store after the staffer running it switched jobs. The PL nerfs to non-Troops just brought them in line with the points, fine. The PL nerfs to Skitarii are egregious. Even variants of my Matched Play list suffer since it's more difficult to use reserves.
The silver lining is that I was already thinning my Skitarii down to 3x5 since the Armigers' counts-as-5-models made additional bodies less relevant than one model with ObSec. In missions where I need it, I can still reserve 3 squads for 1 CP to do actions.
My Metalica with Knights is still running rampant. I almost tried a Metalica Veterans Cohort in this latest league, but I realized how un-fun it would be for all involved. You can pile every buff in the world on 20 Skitarii and they'll run 15" up the board, charge another ~9", then shoot and punch everything to death. Then you add on all the Crusade buffs...
Anyway, I have this new (non-Veterans) Stygies list I'm cooking up to add some variety. It has a Vindicare Assassin I'm custom building as a Skitarii sniper to show off the arquebus.
If I was paying CP instead of Crusade's Requisition Points, I probably wouldn't take Eyes of the Omnissiah. I'd think twice about Firepoint too. I think I'll frequently use the Stygies strat to forward deploy the Marshall with the Infiltrators. The Veiled Hunter is just too cool not to use. It should ensure the Dunecrawlers always have optimal deployments, or may let me reserve the whole army in a pinch.
I've been struggling with all the NERFs, I don't really play META lists and playing the stuff I like now it's far too easy to die.
I'm ay an event on the 19th so I'm going to try a defence cohort list,
Dominus with obsec WL trait for robots
Technoarcheologist with action+shoot WL trait
2x Datasmith, one with Logi to transhuman robots
2x5 Robots, Half single fist and phosphors half double fist and flamers.
3x4 Breachers, Heavy Arc and Hclaws.
Galant with +1 attack and 5++ in melee (Taranis to have the possibility to come back)
Plan is to be v hard to shift off objectives with -1 damage and obsec. Hit hard in melee with fists and claws to stop me getting bullied off and using obsec on these to try and keep as much of the objectives as possible.
Lost works out 2k pts on the nose and 131PL.
I'm fully expecting to loose all 3 games simply due to lack of table time in 9th, I've only managed 1 2K game at a table with my AdMech
DarkHound wrote: I'm only really feeling the nerfs with the PL changes. I've been playing Crusade almost exclusively for a while now, and in fact I'm the event organizer at the local store after the staffer running it switched jobs. The PL nerfs to non-Troops just brought them in line with the points, fine. The PL nerfs to Skitarii are egregious. Even variants of my Matched Play list suffer since it's more difficult to use reserves.
The silver lining is that I was already thinning my Skitarii down to 3x5 since the Armigers' counts-as-5-models made additional bodies less relevant than one model with ObSec. In missions where I need it, I can still reserve 3 squads for 1 CP to do actions.
My Metalica with Knights is still running rampant. I almost tried a Metalica Veterans Cohort in this latest league, but I realized how un-fun it would be for all involved. You can pile every buff in the world on 20 Skitarii and they'll run 15" up the board, charge another ~9", then shoot and punch everything to death. Then you add on all the Crusade buffs...
Anyway, I have this new (non-Veterans) Stygies list I'm cooking up to add some variety. It has a Vindicare Assassin I'm custom building as a Skitarii sniper to show off the arquebus.
If I was paying CP instead of Crusade's Requisition Points, I probably wouldn't take Eyes of the Omnissiah. I'd think twice about Firepoint too. I think I'll frequently use the Stygies strat to forward deploy the Marshall with the Infiltrators. The Veiled Hunter is just too cool not to use. It should ensure the Dunecrawlers always have optimal deployments, or may let me reserve the whole army in a pinch.
Your Armiger's only get obsec if your entire army is Imperial Knights though? So each just counts as a 5 man non-obsec squad. Admittedly it's better than a vehicle sat on objective but a single troops choice will take the objective from you.
Right, my point is that I only need 1 Skitarii model to counter their ObSec, rather than needing a bunch of Skitarii bodies to control the objective. If both players have any ObSec, control is determined by the number of models again, so one or two Armigers is plenty. It's hard for the enemy to get additional bodies in range around the Armiger's big bases (let alone the Knight's). Often I just need one turn to break their control by charging a couple Armigers, followed by Skitarii using Aggressor Doctrina and March to War.
So, how crazy is a list based around cult mechanicus stuff?
Lots of kataphrons, LOTS of electropriests, and robots?
I've been thinking Ryza for the melee boost and the strat for plasmaphrons.
The heart and soul of the list 60 priests (3x10 of both fulgurites and corpuscarii), 3 fighty robots, 3 units of 5 breachers 2 torsion cannons in each, and then as many kataphron destroyers as can be fit.
Mechanicus Defense Cohort is putting up relatively consistent top GT finishes. Gavin Heritage took 3rd at Void Hammer GT, then 4th at the OPG GT, with 15 Kataphron Breachers and 10 Kastelan Robots. Ben Warrior came in 4th at the Adelaide Uprising major with this list:
Just going Cult Mechanicus without the Defense Cohort isn't bad. It's never been a bad army for casual play, just worse than Skitarii, then Skitarii Veterans. You're going to struggle against Tau and Custodes, but that's inevitable.
I recently played with 12 robots and 15 kataphrons and went 2-1. It's a fun list and defiantly has some plus sides, it could do a lot better than I did (I've only played 5 2k games in 9th and 3 where on the same day with this list).
I had planned to take a Galant but found out close to the event it breaks the defence cohort so added in more robots and kataphrons.
Just looking for some advice on my ad mech, had them since 2016 and got back in just before the newest codex, even at release ive never won a game currently on a 35+ (lost count) loss streak. so the constant nerfs are just making it worse for me.
ive been told its because i dont focus my builds enough, i have almost 1 of each squad at base numbers e.g. 10 rangers, 10 vanguard. we play at 2k points. i get tabled every game by every army (local astra militarum player is on a 72+ win streak) they just cant kill anything either the BS sucks or the weapon STR is abysmal.
am i effectively being forced to have to spend £££'s to even get a single win? im not wanting to win every game but being tabled constantly isnt fun. i even take a knight sometimes that doesnt last till turn 4. ive spent ages and dragged games out checking my codex for what i can do each phase and badgering the opponent for every stat of their models and stratagems they can use. nothings working.
were a small group of 8 players and arnt interested in tournaments or meta lists so im not going against the latest overpowered army or list.
There's a guy at our local shop that sounds pretty similar. It sounds like you've got issues at every level: knowing your rules, building your list, and executing a gameplan. You should never need to dig through your rulebook looking for something you missed to save you. It sounds like your army has no focus, which probably also means you don't have a plan to win the game. I could give you a competitive army list, but it wouldn't help you yet.
If you want to get better at the game, you have to study and plan. There's plenty of resources on Youtube from top tournament players on how they plan and play. My go-to content creators are Art of War 40k, Tabletop Titans, and Daniel Brewster. I also read up on Goonhammer.com. Here, read this entire catalogue of articles on the basics of playing well.
To give you an idea of the preparation I take when playing Matched Play: I start by taking a look at the missions and secondary objectives. When I build an army list, I'm building toward those objectives. I have 3 or 4 secondary objectives that my army is designed to score easily. I have a notebook where I write down my secondaries and how I plan to achieve them.
In that notebook, I also keep a shorthand list of my unit's abilities and stratagems in each phase. I don't look at my rulebook; I have a one page flowchart of my abilities. Beyond that, I have a written plan for how I'm going to generally spend command points to achieve the objectives.
My notebook also has a shorthand profile for each of my units, and I've done the math for average results of their attacks against typical targets. Since I know what my average damage is, and I can quickly calculate my opponent's damage, I can estimate what the board will look like after each of our turns and plan for it.
The list building portion of the game is as important as the game itself.
You need to work out what you want you want your army to do and acquire units to do that.
Taking a scatter gun approach will never work. You don't need to spend a huge amount to have a list that can win sometimes but 40k is a strategy game
Think of it this way an army of just infantry makes their anti tank guns fairly useless an army of just walkers makes their anti infantry weak. Takeing one of everything means all their guns have an optimal target.
You should be looking at every unit in your army and saying why am I taking it how does it help me do the objectives I'm going to pick, would another do it better.
And if you don't have those units buy them it's not an ultra cheap hobby but as with any hobby golf, hockey, mtg, esports there is a cost.
Your currently saying I want to be a winner but I don't want to put the effort in.
Between my last tourney and this I theory crafted about 3 lists then a gwfaq change meant I crafted another 5 then I finalised one. Only at thar point I obtained another unit, kitbashed a character and hit my bits box to change some guns net I paid £25 I have a very different force for my next event.
greavous wrote: Just looking for some advice on my ad mech, had them since 2016 and got back in just before the newest codex, even at release ive never won a game currently on a 35+ (lost count) loss streak. so the constant nerfs are just making it worse for me.
ive been told its because i dont focus my builds enough, i have almost 1 of each squad at base numbers e.g. 10 rangers, 10 vanguard. we play at 2k points. i get tabled every game by every army (local astra militarum player is on a 72+ win streak) they just cant kill anything either the BS sucks or the weapon STR is abysmal.
am i effectively being forced to have to spend £££'s to even get a single win? im not wanting to win every game but being tabled constantly isnt fun. i even take a knight sometimes that doesnt last till turn 4. ive spent ages and dragged games out checking my codex for what i can do each phase and badgering the opponent for every stat of their models and stratagems they can use. nothings working.
were a small group of 8 players and arnt interested in tournaments or meta lists so im not going against the latest overpowered army or list.
a few comments:
1) as others have said, you need to focus your army build more. yes, this will mean spending a bit of cash, but if it leads to a better army, then its worth it. look at each unit in your army and work out what it does for you. Does it shoot good? does it fight well? can it sit on an objective and be hard to kill? is it cheap and disposable? they all have their place in the army list. if you find that you end up relying on a few units in your games, then maybe invest in more. since you already have a "wide" range, its worth getting some "depth" to your army, and having more than 2k in units just means that you have options. Ideally, you should be turning up to the game with a rough idea of how your army is going to win the game. is it going to sit back, let the enemy rush the centre, then counterattack crush them? are you going to aggressively deploy forward to pressure the enemy? use a few cheap "chaff" units as a sacrifice to pull the enemy out of cover?
2) also, learn your codex, and what tricks you have. may i suggest getting the datacards? they help you keep track of things like the canticles and doctrines, and also can act as a quick reference guide for strats. if your struggling to keep it all straight, maybe consider writing a "cheat sheet" with a few of the most useful for you strats on it for easy reference. something like "tech priest dominus gives re-rolls 1s to hit in 6 inches", or "infiltrators with taser goads can get 2 extras hits on 5+ for 1cp". in battle, try to focus your fire on a few units each turn, and really "overkill" them. the sheer number of dice rolls means that you need to assign a lot more firepower to a task than you might think. for rangers with galvanic rifles to kill a single 2 wound intercessor, for example, takes 12 shots, (12 shots, 67% hit, 50% wound, 50% get through armour), but in protector imperative (ie when your rangers are BS2+) it drops to 10 shots.
3) it sounds like that while your local scene is not tournament centric, they aren't bad players, either. have you considered asking them what your doing wrong, at least form a tactics perspective? It might be illuminating to hear about how they perceive the situation, and it might start getting you to realise mistakes your making.
4) if your getting overwhelmed at 2k points, maybe ask your regular opponents if they would consider a 1k game instead. That narrows the focus down for both sides, and lets you experiment with a more focused list, and maybe with fewer units and combos to remember, you'll "get your feet" a bit better.
As an example - I'm a player with two second place trophies for the last codex with mechanicus/IK. However recently I have been playing another faction SoB. So I'm coming back to this codex now due to a team event where i cant run sisters
So I'm going agripinaa because of the survivability strat for servitors, eye of xi relic, broken vs vehicles and a bit more AP because who doesn't want their Non LOS energy cannons to be better
When I look at my list I pick 2 HQs (the minimum) my choices are the enginseer because +1 to hit is always nice and the technoarcheologist because with eldar coming I want something to hold back deep strike shenanigans I'm going to pile on what kataphron buffs I can.
Finally, I'm going to take an inquisitor because we are slow I don't want to play board control to heavily so I need a psychic objective and a radical inquisitor is the most effective as they can reroll the test and I want to do so as cheaply as possible (oh and in creating that he gets a free relic so -1 to wounds because he's so important let's keep him alive).
Next two breacher units with +1T to maximise survivability given players may be loading up on anti custodes weapons
and one shooty which will deploy via deepstrike
3 units of hoplites because they are great counterpunchers and survivable for their cost
1 servitor as a cheap objective holder and deep strike denier
two units of Raiders to character snipe early objective hold and act as a delay one with defence buff and reroll A and a slightly smaller one to get in close with the skull of elder nikolai
finally, 3 disintegrators to provide some fire support from behind terrain. Boosted by the enginseer
Mission wise im always taking psychic interrogation, then either accretion of knowledge or uncharted sequencing, the final one is dependent on mission/opposing army
I'm inexperienced with the new codex and I'm not holding this as a top list it's not if I had time before the event I would go mechanicus cohort but I don't have time so ill go with what I've got.
My point is there is thought behind each of those units i didn't just take 1 of each in fact I only have a small fraction of our available choices
I know I'm engaging in ranged combat and holding the minimum objectives counter punching with the hoplites when they come to me. I know I want a tight formation with Serberys as a mote to delay the enemy and score me uncharted sequencing T1 on a distant objective that I will promptly lose and ignore
Nothing is in there randomly or just to take up space
Until my last few games I've always brought dunecrawlers, if you bring two with a necromechanic engineseer he can make both hit on 2+ for 1cp and he can heal up to 6w a turn, making them pretty annoying to shift.
They're not as top tier now they don't rr1 for the invuln but they look cool and are fun. That's how I run them at least.
Is there any workable way to play with Serberys and dunecrawlers?
I would like to play with skitarii with a little more variety than spam the same unit
my understanding is that the serberys raiders, with thier scout move, ability to move out of charges, and very low points cost, see regular play in a "spanner in the works" role to hold up the enemy and force him to expend effort on a cheap but suprisingly durable unit.
I think it means we can take both a mechincus knight and a freeblade and keep out faction stuff, but that's 6cp without the extra warlord traits/relics.
How are people finding AdMech ATM?
I've been struggling since our NERFs and had my best luck with a defence cohort list (12 robots, 12 breachers and 3 destroyers) but I've not tried that since the latest balance for marines (my usual opponents).
Last report I heard from admech is 26% WR the last week.
Considering how complicated the army is, it's entirely shelved for me until something changes.
I bet there are a lot of Sisters, they're gonna be really strong now, especially with 
And our 4++ on Onager 
