I'm thinking it's a decent list, but the points values are still unsure.
My tactics; rangers hold backfield objectives and snipe characters with Mars reroll. Ironstriders go for flanking objectives and locate new firing angles. Vanguard act as a screens for vehicles, while moving to midfield.
Spoiler:
- Belisarius cawl gives full reroll to kastellan robots
- datasmith gives kastellan robots 'core'keyword
- tech-priest (magi) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots exploding 6s
- tech-priest (artisans) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots +1 S
Turn 1: doctrine protector (+1bs/-1ws), canticle shroudpsalm (+1sv)
Turn 2: doctrine bulwark (+1sv/-3mv), canticle benediction (reroll one hit/wound/dmg)
Turn 3-4: no doctrine, canticle (melee buffs)
Turn 5: no doctrine, canticle (roll extra d6 for advance/charge, discard lowest)
It's good to think about your Doctrina/Canticles in advance, but I would keep an open mind because the best combination is going to change for each match-up and specific situation. I think the list is most of the way there, however you're missing some key strengths by splitting up your squads so much. The Vanguard would be stronger as 20 so you could use Enriched Rounds more effectively. You should combine the squad of Ironstriders so you can use Dunestrider and other buffs more effectively.
There's also a lot of points bloat. You don't need all these data-tethers, since you're never going to pick a 5 man Ranger squad to ignore the Doctrina malus. I'm not such a fan of special weapons in general, but you'll have to try it. I do think the Powerswords and extra stubbers are a waste. I also don't think the Infiltrators even benefit from that trait, since their weapons are pistols.
laam999 wrote:I've been thinking of a list for myself to try, this should come to 1985 (based on the reddit spreadsheet)
Spoiler:
Brigade - Mars
HQ Dominus
Engineseer
Marshal
Troops
Vanguard (5) x3
Rangers (5) x3
Elites
Infiltrators (5) x2
Ruststalkers (5)
Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)
Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2
Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2
This will let me test a huge range of stuff and still have a list that LOOKS like an army. I never played Mars in 8th as I disliked their static style. I'm hoping for big things with them in 9th.
If needed I can drop the extra stubbers on crawlers for holy orders, I'll test this out first I think.
I have similar issues with this list. It seems like you're going to Brigade for its own sake, and you're not utilizing the central AdMech mechanic of buff stacking. All this work only nets you an extra Scorpius or Dunecrawler, and they're not even particularly good. If you drop one, you can combine some squads and still take a Battalion, then invest in your buffs. Get some 20 man Skitarii squads and some Holy Order traits.
Here is a big question on my mind right now. Will Secutarii get core? If not RIP my 30 hoplites. If they do though, definite chance of skitarii horde for me. As ryza, probably 60 vanguard, 30 hoplites rolling around with a manip and a marshal. Then have dragoons harass flanks. Then maybe some robots and/or dunecrawlers, as I don't have gun-chickens.
DarkHound wrote: It's good to think about your Doctrina/Canticles in advance, but I would keep an open mind because the best combination is going to change for each match-up and specific situation. I think the list is most of the way there, however you're missing some key strengths by splitting up your squads so much. The Vanguard would be stronger as 20 so you could use Enriched Rounds more effectively. You should combine the squad of Ironstriders so you can use Dunestrider and other buffs more effectively.
There's also a lot of points bloat. You don't need all these data-tethers, since you're never going to pick a 5 man Ranger squad to ignore the Doctrina malus. I'm not such a fan of special weapons in general, but you'll have to try it. I do think the Powerswords and extra stubbers are a waste. I also don't think the Infiltrators even benefit from that trait, since their weapons are pistols.
Hey thanks, you're right about sicarian traits, i'll swap that with Marshall's one, and data tether is in key role for traits. It allows any Skitarii units with it ignore move-and-shoot penalty (rangers), and other allows fall-back-and-shoot, anywhere onboard with data tether (including onagers and ironstriders).
The stratagem for Vanguard is strong, and i'll might try it at some point with 20-man squad, however, it makes them vulnerable to blast weapons, and Mars reroll is more efficient with smaller squads (looking at plasma overcharge). And for that same reason, the ironstriders are single model units.
The power swords can be dropped, they're included just because of points, but stubber is mandatory in the datasheets (atleast in 8th edition codex)
Ah, your points values are slightly off. The Neutron Dunecrawler is 120 now, so I thought you payed 5 more points for the extra stubber.
With regards to the Data-tethers, I just don't see the value in using the Warlord traits on the Rangers. If they get assaulted, they're probably dead, and if some survive do you really care about shooting with two or three models? Likewise, you're almost certainly going to use Battle-sphere Uplink on advancing Vanguard or Ironstriders instead, since it affects a more valuable unit.
For the Vanguard, the Marshall is necessarily going to be near them so they won't need a Data-tether (he's certainly not going to keep up with the Ironstriders). You're right that two squads double dips on Canticles and Mars dogma, but the Marshall gives them re-rolls anyway. They're more vulnerable to blast, but meaningful blast effects are pretty rare right now and the squad can better use Firepoint Telemetry Cache (which you absolutely need to include in the army). Personally, I'd drop Programmed Retreat for Firepoint. You can even take all 3 traits, using Mechanicum Locus on the Marshall and Host of the Intermediary twice on the Alphas (then the Vanguard may want a Data-tether). In fact, you can take another Cult Warlord trait on the Enginseer; you should probably take Panegyric Procession to triple up on a re-rolls or cover for your Robots.
You make a fair point about splitting up the Ironstriders for re-rolls, especially if you don't plan to pile buffs on them. I think over-all that piling buffs on them is better than doing the same to Robots, but we'll have to see how things play out.
So I just saw a battle report from Glasshammer Gaming of the new admech vs the new Drukhari. Drukahi were were being mowed down a ton initially by all the admech shooting. But from turn 2 onwards, once all the melee charges went in, Admech started falling behind.
One charge by a squad of 10 Hellions killed an entire squad of 5 ironstriders in melee in just one round. (strategems were used of course). And it was overkill cos there was a charge by a master succubus as well into that unit. The Drukhari then caught up in points from that point and ended up winning by a big margin by turn 5.
Which brings me to my next point. I think competitive Admech lists needs to have some screening and countercharge ready. Against armies like Druhari, where they can have multiple raiders in the midboard on turn 1, units like Hellions around too. Turn 2, you can easily expect their infantry to be able to reach your backline with a move advance and charge if they are unobstructed. You absolutely need to be able to screen effectively. Because I am not sure if you can position ironstriders so far back they are out of charge range on turn 2. Even with screens its not a gauranteed thing. Even screens can be removed by shooting so its not foolproof, but at least its something.
Because while ironstriders are an amazing unit (which I bet almost every competitive admech list will have), they are vulnerable to melee. Against such a fast mobile army like Drukhari, you can't afford to have nearly 400 points of a unit removed by a charge on turn 2. And shooting them all off the table isn't really always gonna work. Units like Hellions can hide behind obscuring on turn 1 on the midboard and then make a big advance move and charge on turn 2. And also because raiders are cheap and the infantry inside them are fairly cheap too. You might be able to shoot two or three raiders off the table in one shooting phase, but not five or six. And that probably goes for the contents in those raiders too. Like if you could remove six raiders and their cargo from one shooting phase, sure you probably won that match. But I don't think even admech shooting can do that right now... lol
I think that list is really far off from what competitive AdMech is going to look like. It has no melee threats, no blocks of Skitarii for concerted anti-infantry, and not a lot of buff overlaps for the Ironstriders. I don't think sprinkling in Kataphrons is very valuable; they'll probably be strong in a dedicated list, either the army of renown or a custom forgeworld (or simply gearing all the Holy Order traits toward them).
Even all that being said, he made a disastrous blunder by teleporting his premier shooting unit practically point blank to the enemy melee on the first turn. There weren't any Raiders in front screening them, though he could have set that up with the pregame moves. Ideally in that situation, he could measure the distance so disembarking troops could not possible charge the Ironstriders. Then he could coordinate to kill only those two Raiders, then their contents, and then chew through the midboard which are now too far away to contest the Ironstriders.
Nothing against the player, of course. He knew it wasn't an optimized list, and it's a lot of new stuff; they said he didn't remember he could teleport the Ironstriders until just then, so didn't plan around it. Lucius is a particularly tricky faction to play. Still, I think he screwed up on turn 1 and was never able to get back into the game.
I think that list is really far off from what competitive AdMech is going to look like. It has no melee threats, no blocks of Skitarii for concerted anti-infantry, and not a lot of buff overlaps for the Ironstriders. I don't think sprinkling in Kataphrons is very valuable; they'll probably be strong in a dedicated list, either the army of renown or a custom forgeworld (or simply gearing all the Holy Order traits toward them).
Even all that being said, he made a disastrous blunder by teleporting his premier shooting unit practically point blank to the enemy melee on the first turn. There weren't any Raiders in front screening them, though he could have set that up with the pregame moves. Ideally in that situation, he could measure the distance so disembarking troops could not possible charge the Ironstriders. Then he could coordinate to kill only those two Raiders, then their contents, and then chew through the midboard which are now too far away to contest the Ironstriders.
Nothing against the player, of course. He knew it wasn't an optimized list, and it's a lot of new stuff; they said he didn't remember he could teleport the Ironstriders until just then, so didn't plan around it. Lucius is a particularly tricky faction to play. Still, I think he screwed up on turn 1 and was never able to get back into the game.
Correct. It was this battle report. He did say it wasn't an optimised list, and he was just playing with the admech units they had available. But yeah, the importance of screening with admech cannot be understated. Hence my post.
Yeah, Raiders exist to bubble wrap shooting units. That's why Spearheads of them kept showing up in all sorts of competitive lists since their release, even outside of AdMech. Any competitive list will probably have 3x3 of them.
I think that game does highlight an important skill to play AdMech well: the army needs LoS angles, and you need to plan to achieve them immediately and consistently. The Solar Flare play can be excellent, and I expect it to menace some tournaments. You can achieve similar effects with Dunestrider and +3"M Doctrina.
I'll reiterate my earlier point, the movement Doctrina is more valuable than +1 BS, particularly when going first. Increasing BS is great, but first you need to be able to see. I think the effect of -1 sv is overblown in a lot of situations. For example, that Dark Eldar list only has 7 Dark Lances to threaten the Ironstriders. Even if all of them could shoot into the Ironstriders, it'd only kill two on average. In practice, those fast Ironstriders could kill a couple and be out of reach from most of the rest.
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, Raiders exist to bubble wrap shooting units. That's why Spearheads of them kept showing up in all sorts of competitive lists since their release, even outside of AdMech. Any competitive list will probably have 3x3 of them.
I think that game does highlight an important skill to play AdMech well: the army needs LoS angles, and you need to plan to achieve them immediately and consistently. The Solar Flare play can be excellent, and I expect it to menace some tournaments. You can achieve similar effects with Dunestrider and +3"M Doctrina.
I'll reiterate my earlier point, the movement Doctrina is more valuable than +1 BS, particularly when going first. Increasing BS is great, but first you need to be able to see. I think the effect of -1 sv is overblown in a lot of situations. For example, that Dark Eldar list only has 7 Dark Lances to threaten the Ironstriders. Even if all of them could shoot into the Ironstriders, it'd only kill two on average. In practice, those fast Ironstriders could kill a couple and be out of reach from most of the rest.
Ironstriders can handle being shot at just fine. I wouldnt be quite worried about them getting shot at. Its getting charged in melee that will totally shut them down. Hence why screening is extremely important for admech.
DarkHound wrote: Ah, your points values are slightly off. The Neutron Dunecrawler is 120 now, so I thought you payed 5 more points for the extra stubber.
With regards to the Data-tethers, I just don't see the value in using the Warlord traits on the Rangers. If they get assaulted, they're probably dead, and if some survive do you really care about shooting with two or three models? Likewise, you're almost certainly going to use Battle-sphere Uplink on advancing Vanguard or Ironstriders instead, since it affects a more valuable unit.
For the Vanguard, the Marshall is necessarily going to be near them so they won't need a Data-tether (he's certainly not going to keep up with the Ironstriders). You're right that two squads double dips on Canticles and Mars dogma, but the Marshall gives them re-rolls anyway. They're more vulnerable to blast, but meaningful blast effects are pretty rare right now and the squad can better use Firepoint Telemetry Cache (which you absolutely need to include in the army). Personally, I'd drop Programmed Retreat for Firepoint. You can even take all 3 traits, using Mechanicum Locus on the Marshall and Host of the Intermediary twice on the Alphas (then the Vanguard may want a Data-tether). In fact, you can take another Cult Warlord trait on the Enginseer; you should probably take Panegyric Procession to triple up on a re-rolls or cover for your Robots.
You make a fair point about splitting up the Ironstriders for re-rolls, especially if you don't plan to pile buffs on them. I think over-all that piling buffs on them is better than doing the same to Robots, but we'll have to see how things play out.
I'm not yet familiar with the trait names, what are battle sphere uplink and firepoint telemetry? I've had games with guard, tau and necrons before, and I know the value of fall-back-and-shoot with gunline armies, so the programmed retreat is a must-have.
The rangers are optimal choice for keeping backfield objectives and shoot, and with data tether they can be supported (most importantly, they can move-and-shoot without penalty, so they're able to re-position).
I'll have to wait for the codex to arrive, because i've seen in multiple sources different points values for onagers.
Battlesphere Uplink is 'move and shoot without penalty', Firepoint Telemetry Cache is 'unit has light cover, and an infantry unit in terrain gets an additional +1 sv'. Keep in mind, you can only target one unit with these effects per turn. You can't just wave your hand and say "these effects are good" or "they can be supported" without considering specifically how they'd be implemented.
Imagine you've got a 50 point Ranger squad with an Arquebus by itself. Would you pay 20 points and a CP so they'll get to ignore the heavy penalty? You're paying 40% of a squad's cost for sometimes getting an 11% buff. That's what you're investing because you don't know which squad is going to get the buff, so you have to consider the total cost paid for the opportunity. Worse, you're probably not going to use it on the Rangers even if they move, since you'll prioritize using it on the Vanguard or Ironstriders. It's 20 points for a small chance to ignore the penalty.
Programmed Retreat is worthwhile only if you've got large blocks of shooting elements, like a 20 man block of Skitarii or two, or a pack of Ironstriders. Like I said, if Rangers get charged then they're probably dead anyway, and at best shooting with one or two models is not worth the investment. A 10 man Vanguard squad is closer to worthwhile, but they're still going to lose half their squad in the fight. Your most important shooting unit is the Robots (which can shoot into melee combat), but they can't even benefit from Programmed Retreat; they aren't Skitarii, and can't move when in shooting mode anyway.
laam999 wrote:I've been thinking of a list for myself to try, this should come to 1985 (based on the reddit spreadsheet)
Spoiler:
Brigade - Mars
HQ Dominus
Engineseer
Marshal
Troops
Vanguard (5) x3
Rangers (5) x3
Elites
Infiltrators (5) x2
Ruststalkers (5)
Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)
Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2
Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2
This will let me test a huge range of stuff and still have a list that LOOKS like an army. I never played Mars in 8th as I disliked their static style. I'm hoping for big things with them in 9th.
If needed I can drop the extra stubbers on crawlers for holy orders, I'll test this out first I think.
I have similar issues with this list. It seems like you're going to Brigade for its own sake, and you're not utilizing the central AdMech mechanic of buff stacking. All this work only nets you an extra Scorpius or Dunecrawler, and they're not even particularly good. If you drop one, you can combine some squads and still take a Battalion, then invest in your buffs. Get some 20 man Skitarii squads and some Holy Order traits.
To be honest yeah, this won't be a hyper competitive list, but it'll let me test a large variety and as you said I get to use a brigade for the sake of it.
Secondaries: (AdMech) Eradication of Flesh. Engage on all fronts & Deploy Scramblers probably.
Lucius - because the defence/deployment combo is great.
Inquisitor - for CP refund generation as well as a Warp Charge 4 ignore morale (or smite if needed - e.g. additional phase for Ctan's etc), as well as a Ld boost - with data tethers most units are Ld10 - great for the 20block rangers etc.
Technoarchaeologist - he can allow a unit of core or servitors to perform actions without loosing shooting if needed. the +1S Artisan boost on the rangers. & potentail repairs on the vehicles/destroyers.
Marshal & Manipulus - boost the rangers mostly for Transhuman & ignore AP-1 & -2, 39" (Lucius boost + Manipulus), S5 (with Technoboy) AP-2 D1, 40 shots (80 in 19" for 2CP) rerolling 1's to hit & wound. And a 1+ in cover before doctrinas against D1 weapons.
Breachers, mainly for holding primary objectives & taking out vehicles with arc rifles, Hydraulic claws because who doesn't want thunder hammer armed obsec terminators.
Destroyers - because I have the models, and it is additonal high strength firepower.
Vanguard - these are split - for actions options as well as board control/deep-strike prevention- to cover the backfield etc, the larger unit so that enriched rounds might be worth it.
Infiltrators forward deploy - preventing units from counter-deploying too close to my lines, giving space to my shooting units & space for raiders to move up too. turn 1/2 maybe move towards the board edge for CA to go for backfield units etc.
Sterylizor - because 15" flamers (Lucius bonus) out of deep strike is funny, and could be used for scramblers/engage if needed - hopefully booster thrust remains ok in a few weeks.
Ironstriders - because Ironstriders (I only own 4 - sad face...)
the other HS vehicles - because of NMNR secondary, and they have a bunch of shooting too. Technoboy would repair these if needed.
EDIT: also, I do not own planes, nor do I want to. not a fan of the model, I have most other units though, so feel free to recommend alternatives (this list though has the max number of skitarii with basic weapons I have and max number of Ironstriders too).
Heavy Support
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
240 Total Points
Overall
195 HQs 630 Troops
510 Fast Attack
240 Heavy Support
1,995 Total Points
Not sure how well the formatting will work, but hopefullt it's legible! For those who don't want the Google Doc link.
Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)
Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2
Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2
It seems like you're going to Brigade for its own sake, and you're not utilizing the central AdMech mechanic of buff stacking. All this work only nets you an extra Scorpius or Dunecrawler, and they're not even particularly good. If you drop one, you can combine some squads and still take a Battalion, then invest in your buffs. Get some 20 man Skitarii squads and some Holy Order traits.
To be honest yeah, this won't be a hyper competitive list, but it'll let me test a large variety and as you said I get to use a brigade for the sake of it.
Sure thing, but I think you'll have more fun dropping a Heavy Support to take blocks of 20 Skitarii instead. It feels really good to plan your buffs and execute this huge swing turns.
Still wrapping my head around a lot of 9th edition, so if I missed obvious stuff or anything - that is why!
Your list seems decent, it looks like you're covering all your bases. Your points are off, the Knight Crusader is actually 475 base now. I'd probably invest in the Ion Bulwark Warlord trait for it even though you're short on CP. It pays for itself the first time you'd want to Rotate Ion Shields then effectively earns a CP each time after.
Chaff launchers are a tough take because you lose the Electro-whatever-filament to turn off aura effects. Reducing damage isn't actually that important since you often want to detonate the Fusilave in their lines with Vengeance of the Machine Spirit. That threat alone can often make enemies leery of shooting them down.
I also think the Enginseer isn't doing much. The Dunecrawlers aren't quite worth buffing or repairing. You could justify another HQ by taking a Technoarcheologist with Logi to buff the Vanguard and help them complete actions. Otherwise you could probably drop it and scrounge up points for another Dragoon or something.
Heavy Support
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
240 Total Points
Overall
195 HQs 630 Troops
510 Fast Attack
240 Heavy Support
1,995 Total Points
Not sure how well the formatting will work, but hopefullt it's legible! For those who don't want the Google Doc link.
This is certainly different. All those Ryza Kataphrons, but no Plasma Destroyers? Your list is pretty focused, it's either going to work or it's not, and only testing will tell. I think the Dunecrawlers aren't doing that much with Phosphor Blasters. You'll want to find somewhere to cut points for Holy Order traits. Maybe, because you have so many small Kataphron squads, you'd be better off trading a Manipulus for a Dominus to buff all of them. I haven't thought very much about Kataphron spam, so I don't know what combination of Warlord traits, Relics, and other buffs are best.
DarkHound wrote:Did I post here about the Relentless Wrath + Cold Eradication Knight Paladin I was considering? I eventually swung around to the Fury of the Keep and Blessed by Metalica for two reasons. Blessed by Metalica gives the Manipulus a little more to do (plus dramatically improves the Knight's survivability), and you can get the effect of Cold Eradication through Lockstep Advance if you need it. Relentless Wrath is definitely good, but Fury of the Keep gets significantly more benefit from the re-roll Canticle. The Canticle pushes Fury up to averaging a dead Plagueburst Crawler or Redemptor Dreadnought, which is tremendous. By the way, you didn't pay for Knight of the Iron Cog on that Crusader.
I think the best hybrid Knight is the Magaera. The claw and rad flamer come free now; the former has a profile strictly better than feet.
And yeah, I forgot to list the Knight of the Iron Cog CP cost.
DarkHound wrote:As a general note, I realized I'm uncomfortable playing lists without some small squads for actions. In particular, your Lucius and Metalica lists may run into awkward situations for secondaries, since they can't quite fall back on Scramblers.
I am actually realizing this as well. There are definitely cases where the Scramblers might come in handy.
What do people think about WWSWF? The 2x5 Ironstrider lists seem to be able to do it very well. Mars also has those unkillable Booster Bats. Lol.
DarkHound wrote:I'm not totally sure about the double Dunecrawlers, but I like their math against cheap vehicle spam like Raiders and that new Necron list. They add autocannons to compliment my otherwise Meltagun based anti-tank. Maybe trading one for another Fusilave is better depending on the meta.
I have been thinking of where double Crawlers fit in, and I think it's probably in lists that don't have great shooting options, and they cannot set aside HQs to babysit them. So Metalica and Ryza.
I actually think the Twin Phosphor Blasters have the best math though. Ignore Dense Cover is also more useful than anti-Aircraft. That said, Icarus Array can now split fire...
JNAProductions wrote:First poke at a Ryza list, found here on a Google Doc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heavy Support
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
240 Total Points
Overall
195 HQs 630 Troops
510 Fast Attack
240 Heavy Support
1,995 Total Points
Not sure how well the formatting will work, but hopefullt it's legible! For those who don't want the Google Doc link.
I'm not so sure Ryza works until they Kataphrons get Core. Plasma Destroyers sorta suck. And Breachers are pretty much useless for their primary job if they don't have a Techno nearby.
DarkHound wrote:Did I post here about the Relentless Wrath + Cold Eradication Knight Paladin I was considering? I eventually swung around to the Fury of the Keep and Blessed by Metalica for two reasons... The Canticle pushes Fury up to averaging a dead Plagueburst Crawler or Redemptor Dreadnought, which is tremendous.
I think the best hybrid Knight is the Magaera. The claw and rad flamer come free now; the former has a profile strictly better than feet.
And yeah, I forgot to list the Knight of the Iron Cog CP cost.
I agree and that's what forced me to take the Crusader, which justifies its existence only by being different enough. For anyone considering adding a Knight, unfortunately you really only have those 2 options right now. You could hypothetically take a Castellan, though it's a huge CP investment before you even consider House Raven's Order of Companions. There is an outside consideration for the Cerastus Knight Lancer, which is apparently great, but costs $300 from Forgeworld.
Suzuteo wrote: What do people think about WWSWF? The 2x5 Ironstrider lists seem to be able to do it very well. Mars also has those unkillable Booster Bats. Lol.
I actually think this is a really strong consideration for AdMech. Ironstriders are far enough away and fast enough to run and preserve themselves. It's easy to include Cawl, booster bats, or even a token Disintegrator to enable While We Stand. That's just 15 points in some matchups without strong alpha-strikes, like hordes.
Suzuteo wrote: I actually think the Twin Phosphor Blasters have the best math though. Ignore Dense Cover is also more useful than anti-Aircraft. That said, Icarus Array can now split fire...
This has been bugging me, so I finally did the math.As usual, it's a toss up between the Icarus and the Neutron depending on what you need. The Neutron is generally better (though unreliable), but the Icarus is significantly better against Raiders and any aircraft. The Eradication Beamer continues to fail to justify its existence compared to the Neutron Laser. The Phosphor Blaster isn't an anti-tank gun, but amusingly it keeps up with the Neutron against Raiders.
Now here's the thing about the Dense Cover rule for Phosphor. Dense cover reduces damage by a third, so rather than multiply every other stat by 3/4, it's easier to multiply Phosphor by 4/3 to get the new rankings (just not the actual damage amount). In that case Phosphor gets:
3.18/3.18;5.96/4.81
So, hilariously, when in dense cover it beats other anti-tank except the Neutron against T7 no invul. Now, it still doesn't beat the Icarus by very much in any category: it's an average 8% damage increase. It's amusing, but not practical.
DarkHound wrote: This has been bugging me, so I finally did the math.As usual, it's a toss up between the Icarus and the Neutron depending on what you need. The Neutron is generally better (though unreliable), but the Icarus is significantly better against Raiders and any aircraft. The Eradication Beamer continues to fail to justify its existence compared to the Neutron Laser. The Phosphor Blaster isn't an anti-tank gun, but amusingly it keeps up with the Neutron against Raiders.
Now here's the thing about the Dense Cover rule for Phosphor. Dense cover reduces damage by a third, so rather than multiply every other stat by 3/4, it's easier to multiply Phosphor by 4/3 to get the new rankings (just not the actual damage amount). In that case Phosphor gets:
3.18/3.18;5.96/4.81
So, hilariously, when in dense cover it beats other anti-tank except the Neutron against T7 no invul. Now, it still doesn't beat the Icarus by very much in any category: it's an average 8% damage increase. It's amusing, but not practical.
Wait what? T6-7? Most of the targets I was thinking of are T3 or T5-6.
Kabalites, Wracks, and Incubi are T3 without an invulnerable save. Though I think Wracks have a 5+++? Venoms are T5 4+/5++ and Raiders are T6 4+/5++.
That said, I do think Icarus are very strong, and they shouldn't really be firing all their guns at the same target.
Oh, actually taking them for anti-infantry work? Yeah, we were on way different wave-lengths. I just assumed the plethora of melee options and hordes of Skitarii we were already bringing covered that by default.
Against Venoms, the Phosphor performs basically the same as an Icarus at ~4.8.
The Icarus has the option to split fire, I'm just not sure how practical that is. I guess you could shoot the autocannon at W2 models, and fire the rockets into chaff, and send the missile at a vehicle. But actually the autocannon is the best part for anti-tank, and the missile would be wasted on infantry, so actually you're just firing rockets at chaff. That's fine, but the rockets are actually pretty good against T6 targets too, which is why you took an Icarus Array. So most of the time I think the weapons are still going into the same target.
DarkHound wrote: Oh, actually taking them for anti-infantry work? Yeah, we were on way different wave-lengths. I just assumed the plethora of melee options and hordes of Skitarii we were already bringing covered that by default.
Against Venoms, the Phosphor performs basically the same as an Icarus at ~4.8.
The Icarus has the option to split fire, I'm just not sure how practical that is. I guess you could shoot the autocannon at W2 models, and fire the rockets into chaff, and send the missile at a vehicle. But actually the autocannon is the best part for anti-tank, and the missile would be wasted on infantry, so actually you're just firing rockets at chaff. That's fine, but the rockets are actually pretty good against T6 targets too, which is why you took an Icarus Array. So most of the time I think the weapons are still going into the same target.
Oh, I see your point. Yeah, for anti-vehicle and anti-monster, Icarus is the way to go. Neutron is still only good against high toughness targets with no invulnerable save, like Guard vehicles.
DarkHound wrote: Your list seems decent, it looks like you're covering all your bases. Your points are off, the Knight Crusader is actually 475 base now. I'd probably invest in the Ion Bulwark Warlord trait for it even though you're short on CP. It pays for itself the first time you'd want to Rotate Ion Shields then effectively earns a CP each time after.
Chaff launchers are a tough take because you lose the Electro-whatever-filament to turn off aura effects. Reducing damage isn't actually that important since you often want to detonate the Fusilave in their lines with Vengeance of the Machine Spirit. That threat alone can often make enemies leery of shooting them down.
I also think the Enginseer isn't doing much. The Dunecrawlers aren't quite worth buffing or repairing. You could justify another HQ by taking a Technoarcheologist with Logi to buff the Vanguard and help them complete actions. Otherwise you could probably drop it and scrounge up points for another Dragoon or something.
I appreciate the feedback. I have been really digging into the new Codex and trying to find a list I want to play, want to build/paint, but also one that won't kill my wallet (lol in this hobby).
So I reworked it taking into account your notes but also just generally tinkering.
The chaff can be tossed if I find it does wind up being less optimal - in that, I could add Logi to the Technoarcheologist and pad out the Ranger squad with a dude.
How does that look? I think it has synergy and will be fun on the table without being a pushover. One thing I am concerned with is how slim it is on CP. Not sure how to remedy that though by its nature. At least the Artisan saves me a CP.
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, Raiders exist to bubble wrap shooting units. That's why Spearheads of them kept showing up in all sorts of competitive lists since their release, even outside of AdMech. Any competitive list will probably have 3x3 of them.
How is everyone using Raiders now that Obliqua was nerfed? We can't really intentionally bait people to charge then run away anymore.
Raiders are less of a screen, partly to a change of their profile, partlyto tactica oblica being... suboptimal now...
To me they seem like a tool to prevent aggressive deployment of strong shooty elements.
With a 12" pregame move and a 12" normal move you can cross from your deploy into his deploy T1. And anything that is within 6" of that has a reasonable chance to be tagged and taking out the heavy guns for a turn while they fall back or try to shoot the threat off of them.
Thairne wrote: Raiders are less of a screen, partly to a change of their profile, partlyto tactica oblica being... suboptimal now...
To me they seem like a tool to prevent aggressive deployment of strong shooty elements.
With a 12" pregame move and a 12" normal move you can cross from your deploy into his deploy T1. And anything that is within 6" of that has a reasonable chance to be tagged and taking out the heavy guns for a turn while they fall back or try to shoot the threat off of them.
Yeah. You run them to an objective and prevent your opponent from outflanking or deep striking. Obliqua is used to protect themselves, not other units.
They are also a good target for Wrath of Mars, since each 6 will be 2 mortal wounds with their sniper rules. They can become insanely tough with Mars letting them combine Shroudpsalm with the +1 save Doctrina, and they make good caddies for some of the relics and wargear that we can give Skitarii units now.
I'm looking to run a single unit of 9 with the fight last relic as part of a Mars Outrider detachment.
Got to keep building those Vanguard for 20man blobs - some Ork previews dropped today - the basic boys are now T5. I guess this is why we can take the Enriched Rounds strat...
yes, rangers seem suddenly a good bit less strong now by that simple reveal....
at this point im starting to feel sorry for marines and especially necrons.
Vanguards are more economic in a way, they still have loads of shots and can wound everything for just 1CP. Rangers must pay 2CP for their stratagem, which is more focused on armoured foes (with the AP buffs we can give them) than generalist like the Radium one is, who relies on weight of dice. Shooting Mortarion with 90 4+ to Wound shots is going to be fun.
Not feeling sorry for Marines though, they have EVERY TOOL at their disposal to deal with ANYTHING, they just need to build better lists to cover this new meta. Their codex is big enough.
While writing a list I figured we could teleport a unit of Kastelan with the Lucius Relic, as they're <Base> so long as they're within range of the Datasmith. So, 4 Robots with double fists, flamers, a Dominus for reroll 1s to Hit, teleport both and boom, 28 wounds of rage anywhere on the board at 9" from the enemy. Can't ignore that. Slap Binharic when it's your Charge phase and reroll charges, should be reliable enough for a T1 charge.
4 Robots with double fists, flamers, a Dominus for reroll 1s to Hit, teleport both and boom, 28 wounds of rage anywhere on the board at 9" from the enemy. Can't ignore that. Slap Binharic when it's your Charge phase and reroll charges, should be reliable enough for a T1 charge.
If they teleport with the Dominus they won't be Core any more so they won't get reroll 1's to hit
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I appreciate the feedback. I have been really digging into the new Codex and trying to find a list I want to play, want to build/paint, but also one that won't kill my wallet (lol in this hobby). So I reworked it taking into account your notes but also just generally tinkering. Take Two: Metalica and House Raven
The chaff can be tossed if I find it does wind up being less optimal - in that, I could add Logi to the Technoarcheologist and pad out the Ranger squad with a dude.
How does that look? I think it has synergy and will be fun on the table without being a pushover. One thing I am concerned with is how slim it is on CP. Not sure how to remedy that though by its nature. At least the Artisan saves me a CP.
It looks good, it looks like it does a bit of everything well. I don't think Infiltrators really need Temporocopia. You'll get to deploy them last, so you can avoid being charged by anything of consequence. They're a bully unit, they can't go toe to toe with real threats. That's what the Dragoons are for.
I'm still adamant that the Fusilaves are better without chaff launchers, and that would also get you Logos on the Technoarcheologist effectively buying you a CP (we need to come up with an abbreviation for him). You'd effectively go back to starting with 7.
Ideasweasel wrote: As someone who loves the models and wishes to field a few fliers
Is the age of the Martian airwing over?
Nah, not even close. Richard Siegler has been running 3 Fusilaves, and the Stratoraptor has seen some play elsewhere.
4 Robots with double fists, flamers, a Dominus for reroll 1s to Hit, teleport both and boom, 28 wounds of rage anywhere on the board at 9" from the enemy. Can't ignore that. Slap Binharic when it's your Charge phase and reroll charges, should be reliable enough for a T1 charge.
If they teleport with the Dominus they won't be Core any more so they won't get reroll 1's to hit
Oh yeah you're right ! Better to give it to the Datasmith then, they won't get rerolls but can be repaired, and he's handy in a fight too. The Dominus will buff the shooty guys then.
No, Bombers are the best non-LOS we have now. (You could Awaken two Disintegrators, but S5 is nowhere close to as good as S6.)
I know your right about the Disintegrators but with the lock down I have never fielded them and... and I want to haha so I will try them out for a bit, a pair of them and a pair of the bombers.
I really like the double mars patrol you suggested, the overlapping cover of the buffs from the HQ seems super cool, I have used what I have available to fill the slots/pts but can't wait to run it.
Also I need to build up more other options like more Ballistarii which will be the next buys.
I'd like to take a second to ask everyone to send an email to the 40kFAQ address over the wording on the Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard.
There's a few photos in the book showing doubled-up arquebi on 10 man Ranger teams and the wording is apparently fairly different to the other factions' more restrictive options, given that we have the "9 or fewer" and separate to that is the 3 options "for every 10 models".
Kanluwen wrote: I'd like to take a second to ask everyone to send an email to the 40kFAQ address over the wording on the Skitarii Ranger/Vanguard.
There are a few photos in the book showing doubled-up arquebi on 10 man Ranger teams and the wording is apparently fairly different to the other factions' more restrictive options, given that we have the "9 or fewer" and separate to that is the 3 options "for every 10 models".
Isn't it exactly the same wording as DE Wyches and DG Plague marines except we get one weapon for below 10? I honestly think people are reading too much into everything, they've convinced themselves it's way more complicated than it actually is and just worked themselves up into a state of confusion.
Also, i'm pretty a re-used picture of Rangers from 8th doesn't constitute rules confusion, for all they know it's two squads of 5, which would absolutely be allowed.
Isn't it exactly the same wording as DE Wyches and DG Plague marines except we get one weapon for below 10? I honestly think people are reading too much into everything, they've convinced themselves it's way more complicated than it actually is and just worked themselves up into a state of confusion.
From what I've been able to get from a readout on Wyches, their setup is a "one stop shop" while ours is broken up into 3 distinctive bulletpoint options for every 10 models after the "one stop shop" of the 9 or less bullet point.
Any pictures I've found of the datasheets have just been the box info which didn't have an immediately spottable "1:10" or whatever.
Also, i'm pretty a re-used picture of Rangers from 8th doesn't constitute rules confusion, for all they know it's two squads of 5, which would absolutely be allowed.
Maybe, maybe not. At least one of the images can be argued as being Crusade perks if it truly is meant to be 1:10 superseding the 9 or fewer. Things get weird though in that I could not find any actually showing 1 of each in a 10 model unit.
Anyways, it hurts literally nobody for the question to get asked to the FAQ team. If it gets asked in enough volume, we might even get a definitive answer!
its slightly confusing, but pretty clear.
Its written in a kinda programming way...
There is no way around it, they intended it that way and that way it is.
If you want to spam special weapons, you're best of with min squads of 5 since then you can double and triple up on the weapons, but forgo buffs.
Why anyone would do that with how things are currently tho...
Ranger Supported Bomb
- Marshal
- Exemplars Eternity relic
- Wrath of Mars strat
- Battle-Sphere uplink (quality of life) WLT (also consideration for an ability to
This all fits nicely into a double Patrol or Batallion & Patrol. The first two completely fill up the minimum requirements for a patrol detachment. The 3rd gives you an easy way to proc Wrath of Mars (i.e. 36+ hits).
All 3 are face meltingly good. AlL 3 fit together well (I think folk will agree, double patrol or batallion & patrol for those extra slots is useful!).
And all 3 are not over investments - whilst you can double down and apply multiple character buffs.. do you need to?
Thairne wrote: its slightly confusing, but pretty clear. Its written in a kinda programming way... There is no way around it, they intended it that way and that way it is.
It really isn't clear though. This isn't laid out in a common sense way, where it would say:
For every 10 models in the unit, you can take 1 of each of the following: Arc Rifle, Plasma Caliver, Transauranic Arquebus. If the unit numbers 9 or fewer models, you can take 1 of the above choices.
That's "pretty clear". As it stands?
We have two distinctive things going on: "For 9 or fewer models in the unit" and then we have the 3 tags that say "For every 10 models in the unit"
The two are not exclusive, and there is not really any superseding like we should be seeing in a "clear" answer.
But yeah. Like I said, it doesn't hurt anyone to ask.
Thairne wrote: its slightly confusing, but pretty clear.
Its written in a kinda programming way...
There is no way around it, they intended it that way and that way it is.
It really isn't clear though. This isn't laid out in a common sense way, where it would say:
For every 10 models in the unit, you can take 1 of each of the following: Arc Rifle, Plasma Caliver, Transauranic Arquebus.
If the unit numbers 9 or fewer models, you can take 1 of the above choices.
That's "pretty clear".
As it stands?
We have two distinctive things going on:
"For 9 or fewer models in the unit"
and then we have the 3 tags that say
"For every 10 models in the unit"
The two are not exclusive, and there is not really any superseding like we should be seeing in a "clear" answer.
But yeah. Like I said, it doesn't hurt anyone to ask.
They are exclusive, though? How do you figure that your 10 man squad still counts as having 9 or fewer models in the unit? As soon as you hit 10 models, the first clause is meant to be ignored because it no longer applies to that unit.
But they ARE exclusive.
You cannot have "9 or fewer" and then for every 10"
its pretty basic math - 10 <= 9 is wrong
So as soon as you cross the 10 model threshold, the first bullet point is not usable any longer. Which means you get 1 of each special weapon.
If you reach 20, you can apply those bullet points again because.. well... 20 is 2x10 and the "for every 10" applies twice.
In a programmers mind, thats a rather basic if-else statement.
If (models <= 9)
take 1 any
else if (models >= 10 and models <= 19)
take 1 arc rifle
take 1 plasma caliver
take 1 arquebus
else if (models == 20)
take 1 arc rifle
take 1 plasma caliver
take 1 arquebus
Been thinking a lot about how to play AdMech and 9E, and I think the ultimate winner of my deliberations is Lucius.
Three primary reasons:
1. We're moving more toward being an infantry army, and Lucius dogma pretty much makes infantry immune to chip damage and common anti-horde weapons. Putting Transhuman and Logi on top of the dogma makes any brick of infantry into a solid wall. Remember: These bonuses apply to ANY attack, not just ranged. Thus, Lucius's defensive attributes are strictly superior to those of Stygies.
2. +3" range is really useful for a deep-striking army. Corpuscarii can come in 5 deep and still shoot all of their guns at 15"; Infiltrators can do 4 deep because of their larger bases.
3. Infiltrators do everything you would want out of a Stygies unit, and The Solar Flare is strictly superior to Veiled Hunter. Then you have two more deep strike bombs you can drop on the following turn; you can also deep strike Skitarii, which is something Cartogrammist cannot do.
Unit Choices The Marshal is my Warlord, mostly because he can camp near the Ballistarii to turn off Doctrina negatives, give them cover in the open, and give them the best anti-tank math in the entire game of 40K right now. In a pinch, he can also run forward to give other Skitarii rerolls, but he's generally to be kept safe.
I was considering how to use my other two HQ slots. I went with Manipulus and Dominus and set them up in this manner for maximum flexibility. On turn one, the Manipulus can up-gun the Vanguard, and then the Dominus can then teleport them with himself into range of the enemy. They can then output 60x auto-wound on 4+ shots while rerolling 1s. The Manipulus meanwhile will be advancing to try to get within 9" for next round to up-gun them again. He also has plenty of time to get in range to use Artisans on units that can charge cycle; Dragoons and Infiltrators can both benefit, and in the case of Corpuscarii, you can also cycle shooting without any penalties.
Two 20x units of Vanguard because they have the best math straight out of deep strike, and they are a lot more prickly to charge into with that -1T and -1S aura, which makes them valuable as a screen and support for my other melee units. I also have 2 MSUs of Rangers for backfield objectives and screening; one carries Cortex to allow my blobs to set up Banners, the other Engagements to give my Raiders and Dragoons fight first as needed.
Infiltrators forward deploy onto an objective to claim it turn one. They can also move and charge on turn one if necessary, though I would probably not intentionally deploy them that far out in case you are going second. They are specced for melee though, with Temporcopia giving them charge protection. You can actually put quite a few stratagems on them to put those Tasers to work. (Without any buffs aside from Chain-Taser Protocols and Assassin Constructs, you are outputting 34.44 S6 AP1 wounds.)
Raiders give you the option to open another flank, which is very important for Uncharted Sequencing. They can move 24" in your first turn without advancing.
NGL, Autocannon Ballistarii are probably more competitive. But I love Dragoons, so that nudged the scales. I use them as the hammer to my infantry's anvil. Their shock and awe effect also cannot be denied; they tend to be a bullet magnet if history has anything to say about it. If you are going second, Bulwark and Telemetry get them to a T6 1+/6++ profile with -1 to hit. If your opponent has a bevy of AP2 D2-3 guns, Logi might be worthwhile as well.
For the Ballistarii, I went with the Lascannons because this army does not really struggle with anti-infantry. They are used to pop transports and tanks.
Secondaries Lucius seems to be the FW best situated to play the objectives game, and that is going to be how we're taking secondaries. The times of building around WWSWF are probably behind us, since we can't just park Disintegrators in our deployment anymore, and our Skitarii cost more anyway.
Uncharted Sequencing or Engage On All Fronts
I dropped bombers from this build to focus more on infantry, so Engage On All Fronts is less attractive. It is, of course, still very good, but I worry that it might be hard to get such large units wholly into three quarters, not to mention that it might be bad to spread the units out too much. Uncharted Sequencing is great because it is a progressive objectives secondary that checks at the end of your turn. It also helps you preplan and focus your efforts.
Raise the Banners High or Retrieve Octarius Data
If I'm up against something without pre-deploy, Raise the Banners is pretty safe. Otherwise, the new version of Deploy Scramblers seems to work well with Uncharted Sequencing for 12 reliable points.
Eradication of Flesh or No Prisoners or Bring It Down or Assassinate or Abhor the Witch
This list only brings two Ironstrider units for vehicles, so Eradication is a very strong pick against infantry-heavy armies. If not that, then any of the killy secondaries will do.
Not a huge fan of To The Last. This list wants to get stuck in. Not even sure if it's possible to play AdMech in the old castle style.
That looks absolutely filthy.
I'd be worried a bit for a lack of real AT.. The Chickens definately will get the Reaper's toll, but from T2 onwards, they will be absolute priority if they can be targeted at all. Dragoons are nice, but take a turn or two to get into threat range - it's a trade off for sure, but the CP requirements seem to be quite high, especially if you consider that you used quite a few CP for pregame strats. So I'm not sure they can take on T8 targets that reliably.
Granted, most 9th codex want to spam infantry as it seems, so that problem might get less and less important as more 9th codexes come out.
How are you getting a tether onto infiltrators for them to benefit from engagements? They dont have an EDT so you'd have to keep a vehicle, Dragoon in this case as a babysitter to be able to use it.
Thairne wrote: But they ARE exclusive.
You cannot have "9 or fewer" and then for every 10"
its pretty basic math - 10 <= 9 is wrong
So as soon as you cross the 10 model threshold, the first bullet point is not usable any longer. Which means you get 1 of each special weapon.
If you reach 20, you can apply those bullet points again because.. well... 20 is 2x10 and the "for every 10" applies twice.
In a programmers mind, thats a rather basic if-else statement.
Spoiler:
If (models <= 9)
take 1 any
else if (models >= 10 and models <= 19)
take 1 arc rifle
take 1 plasma caliver
take 1 arquebus
else if (models == 20)
take 1 arc rifle
take 1 plasma caliver
take 1 arquebus
That's not how bullet points work though. Bullet points denote a list with options presented within.
In any case, if you're right? Cool. But if you're not right...then we just got the tripled up special moved to 20 models.
Like I said, repeatedly now, it hurts literally nobody to make them answer the question.
That list looks absolutely tough, so I'm imagining how I'd approach it with mine.
Spoiler:
Total 1998pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, Ironstorm, 490 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270 2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270
The match-up feels very much in your favor, because your Vanguard are impossible to kill efficiently and murder all other infantry. However, you don't a lot of anti-tank, which is the only advantage I can leverage. If I can kill the Dragoons and Ironstriders, my armor gets free reign (to flounder against your infantry).
I think the math says your Ironstriders average 20 wounds against Knight's my 4++, but I think I win if you commit to it rather than killing other vehicles. Once I've killed your vehicles, my Knight isn't very effective against the infantry. I'm pretty sure in most board configurations I can kill the Ironstriders turn 1, and the Dragoons on turn 2. The Ironstriders will probably kill the Fusilave and maybe a Warglaive, and if the Dragoons can charge they'll kill another Warglaive. A lot of it will hinge on who gets first turn; if I can go first and use the Fusilave and kill some Ironstriders or Dragoons, my life gets a lot easier.
After that, the only thing I can think to do is hold 10 primary per round. My vehicles really don't hurt your infantry, so I guess I use their huge bases to screen my objectives and hope for the best. I'm never taking you off any of your objectives, which probably means you can max Domination/Stranglehold and Raise the Banners. I actually don't think I can win unless everything goes right for me, which probably means I need to take another look at my list design...
You know, if I drop the Raiders to minimum sized and swap a Dunecrawler for another Fusilave, I could reserve both flyers and stand a better chance. The Fusilaves can actually grind out your infantry. That's probably the move that gives me some hope.
You can get 5x Ironstriders with Lascannon for 375? Drop a couple Lascannon down to Autocannon in a squadron and you can get three 5-chicken units for around 1000 points. Then add three 20-man blobs of infantry and characters to support.
I feel like that would shoot anything off of the table, but would be hard to collect the models.
Thairne wrote:That looks absolutely filthy.
I'd be worried a bit for a lack of real AT.. The Chickens definately will get the Reaper's toll, but from T2 onwards, they will be absolute priority if they can be targeted at all. Dragoons are nice, but take a turn or two to get into threat range - it's a trade off for sure, but the CP requirements seem to be quite high, especially if you consider that you used quite a few CP for pregame strats. So I'm not sure they can take on T8 targets that reliably.
Granted, most 9th codex want to spam infantry as it seems, so that problem might get less and less important as more 9th codexes come out.
I did say that Autocannon Ballistarii are probably more competitive than Dragoons. Only downside is that it's hard for one Marshal to manage both. I do expect to use the fighting Doctrina eventually.
Ideasweasel wrote:@suzuteo
Lucius does look strong. I think Mars is nice buffs but defensive trickery reigns king.
Can you explain the inclusion of a dominus. I’ve been a bit down on how useful he seems compared to just taking another marshal or manipulus
Yeah, it was a bit of a tough call. But I figure that since I can only buff one Vanguard blob at a time, it would be better to just have buffs for one Manipulus. Besides, even with all of the defensive buffs, they can't not attack the infantry brick sitting in midboard. Worst comes to worst, I can keep the second blob in reserves until the first one gets damaged.
Octovol wrote:How are you getting a tether onto infiltrators for them to benefit from engagements? They dont have an EDT so you'd have to keep a vehicle, Dragoon in this case as a babysitter to be able to use it.
My mistake. I meant the Raiders. (These are the units with no native source of fight last, so they probably want to stay near the Corpuscarii and Infiltrators.)
DarkHound wrote:That list looks absolutely tough, so I'm imagining how I'd approach it with mine.
Spoiler:
Total 1998pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, Ironstorm, 490 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270
2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270
The match-up feels very much in your favor, because your Vanguard are impossible to kill efficiently and murder all other infantry. However, you don't a lot of anti-tank, which is the only advantage I can leverage. If I can kill the Dragoons and Ironstriders, my armor gets free reign (to flounder against your infantry).
I think the math says your Ironstriders average 20 wounds against Knight's my 4++, but I think I win if you commit to it rather than killing other vehicles. Once I've killed your vehicles, my Knight isn't very effective against the infantry. I'm pretty sure in most board configurations I can kill the Ironstriders turn 1, and the Dragoons on turn 2. The Ironstriders will probably kill the Fusilave and maybe a Warglaive, and if the Dragoons can charge they'll kill another Warglaive. A lot of it will hinge on who gets first turn; if I can go first and use the Fusilave and kill some Ironstriders or Dragoons, my life gets a lot easier.
After that, the only thing I can think to do is hold 10 primary per round. My vehicles really don't hurt your infantry, so I guess I use their huge bases to screen my objectives and hope for the best. I'm never taking you off any of your objectives, which probably means you can max Domination/Stranglehold and Raise the Banners. I actually don't think I can win unless everything goes right for me, which probably means I need to take another look at my list design...
You know, if I drop the Raiders to minimum sized and swap a Dunecrawler for another Fusilave, I could reserve both flyers and stand a better chance. The Fusilaves can actually grind out your infantry. That's probably the move that gives me some hope.
Looking at your list, I am immediately going to prioritize keeping my Ballistarii safe. Deploy them out of LOS as best I can.
I can use Benevolence to essentially cut your Fusilave's MWs in half, so I am not particularly worried about it; in fact, I sorta expect you to use those MW against the Vanguard, not my vehicles. This is because they will be camped in the backfield waiting for Flare, so you will probably not be able to shoot first with your infantry, even with your magic advance. So weakening their volume of fire will be key.
I would try to keep your Knight out of Full Tilt range with the Infiltrators and Raiders. I doubt I can prevent them from shooting. Probably only lose 2-3 Ballistarii if I use Transhuman on them: 8x Thermal Lance shots, 5.33 hits, 2.665 wounds, 1.77*3.5= 6.22 damage, plus another 2.5 MWs from the plane. Crusader can finish one and might be able to take another out. I don't expect the Dunecrawlers to be able to shoot them at all, given their low movement; they will probably look for the Vanguard. Not sure if people realize how crazy Lucius's Transhuman is yet. It basically takes any weapons targeting a single unit and reduces it to the toughness of the target, which can be any Core unit. (Really, the big question mark for me is whether or not I want to use it on my Vanguard blob or the Ballistarii that I know you need to focus on.) Anyhow, cutting down the damage on the wound step is the most important thing you can do in stopping any-tank weapons. I actually would expect that you would shoot at my Dragoons instead. Probably can kill all of them.
The new Lascannons are fierce: 10 shots, 9.72 hits, 7.56 wounds, 3.78*5 = 18.9 damage on your Knight if I get to shoot first. I probably would not bother though. I would focus on killing the plane first (assuming it did not bail) and then 2 Warglaives. Flare my Vanguard blob into your infantry and start blasting. If you weakened the Vanguard blob, it will not be a blowout, but then I will be charging with my Infiltrators and Raiders, which will always fight first (and probably wipe your MSUs each time). If my Dragoons are still alive, they will pop an additional Warglaive a turn, but I doubt they will be.
Turn two, you probably will get both the Ballistarii and the Dragoons. But then I drop the Corpuscarii and Vanguard deathballs to swarm the objectives with infantry that I know you cannot kill fast enough. And then it becomes an inevitable structural victory after that point. You will have 2 Warglaives, a Knight, and 2 Crawlers. I will have pretty much everything but my Ironstriders, maybe one chewed up Vanguard unit that I will be looking to tarpit your Crawlers with.
only changes that affect us directly on those FAQs was they changed Secutarii to form 8th ed canticles to doctrina imperitives, apart form that i cant see anything. of note, the Secutarii are non-CORE, so cant benefit form many of the doctrinia, unless i am mistaken (?).
Charging counts as a "fight first" rule and such rules do not stack. So anything that charges a unit that says they fight first the charging player starts with their unit and then they alternate.
I dont recall any Fight First in our codex, but it does enable us to charge Fight First gits and still actually swing before them.
Basically, two Marshals to disable the negatives twice. Raiment to remove shooting penalties even further; you can run Rangers in this build, but I am not so sure you can afford the CP. Technoarchaeologist is an aura caddy that shuts down deep strike and enables charge-cycling.
Charging counts as a "fight first" rule and such rules do not stack. So anything that charges a unit that says they fight first the charging player starts with their unit and then they alternate.
I dont recall any Fight First in our codex, but it does enable us to charge Fight First gits and still actually swing before them.
Yup. Finally settled. There is now a soft initiative system in the game.
Fight First - Active Player's Initiative
Fight Normally - Inactive Player's Initiative
Fight Last - Active Player's Initiative
Charge is also considered a form of Fight First. So that means Archived Engagements is not too great anymore. Temporcopia and Electro-Shocked are the way to go.
DarkHound wrote:That list looks absolutely tough, so I'm imagining how I'd approach it with mine.
Looking at your list, I am immediately going to prioritize keeping my Ballistarii safe. Deploy them out of LOS as best I can.
Spoiler:
I can use Benevolence to essentially cut your Fusilave's MWs in half, so I am not particularly worried about it; in fact, I sorta expect you to use those MW against the Vanguard, not my vehicles. This is because they will be camped in the backfield waiting for Flare, so you will probably not be able to shoot first with your infantry, even with your magic advance. So weakening their volume of fire will be key.
I would try to keep your Knight out of Full Tilt range with the Infiltrators and Raiders. I doubt I can prevent them from shooting. Probably only lose 2-3 Ballistarii if I use Transhuman on them: 8x Thermal Lance shots, 5.33 hits, 2.665 wounds, 1.77*3.5= 6.22 damage, plus another 2.5 MWs from the plane. Crusader can finish one and might be able to take another out. I don't expect the Dunecrawlers to be able to shoot them at all, given their low movement; they will probably look for the Vanguard. Not sure if people realize how crazy Lucius's Transhuman is yet. It basically takes any weapons targeting a single unit and reduces it to the toughness of the target, which can be any Core unit. (Really, the big question mark for me is whether or not I want to use it on my Vanguard blob or the Ballistarii that I know you need to focus on.) Anyhow, cutting down the damage on the wound step is the most important thing you can do in stopping any-tank weapons. I actually would expect that you would shoot at my Dragoons instead. Probably can kill all of them.
The new Lascannons are fierce: 10 shots, 9.72 hits, 7.56 wounds, 3.78*5 = 18.9 damage on your Knight if I get to shoot first. I probably would not bother though. I would focus on killing the plane first (assuming it did not bail) and then 2 Warglaives. Flare my Vanguard blob into your infantry and start blasting. If you weakened the Vanguard blob, it will not be a blowout, but then I will be charging with my Infiltrators and Raiders, which will always fight first (and probably wipe your MSUs each time). If my Dragoons are still alive, they will pop an additional Warglaive a turn, but I doubt they will be.
Turn two, you probably will get both the Ballistarii and the Dragoons. But then I drop the Corpuscarii and Vanguard deathballs to swarm the objectives with infantry that I know you cannot kill fast enough. And then it becomes an inevitable structural victory after that point. You will have 2 Warglaives, a Knight, and 2 Crawlers. I will have pretty much everything but my Ironstriders, maybe one chewed up Vanguard unit that I will be looking to tarpit your Crawlers with.
It's really interesting to hear the opposite thought process, thank you. We both forgot stuff and made different assumptions, so it's great to see the game can't be played entirely in theory. Honestly, I totally forgot about Lucius Transhuman. On my end, the shooting re-roll canticle basically doubles all the damage. The Knight can get 20" movement, and the Warglaives can advance, which makes hiding from them difficult.
The Lascannons versus Warlgaives is an interesting problem. 6 buffed Lascannon shots deals 11.3 average damage to a Warglaive with Rotate Ion Shields, so slightly worse than 50% chance to kill. 4 Lascannons into a 5++ Warglaive only deal 10.1 on average. You have to allocate the shots first, then I can pick which to buff, so I can even dodge the coin flip and Shield the 4 shots to ensure only 1 dies. It would be really hard to kill two. I assumed I'd have to hide from your shooting, so that's also why this theorizing is great; in practice I'd know to deploy aggressively anyway.
Anyway, you're right it would come down to the infantry. Hell, maybe I should just spend 3 CP to reserve everything and wait until the vehicles start to make a dent. It's definitely an interesting puzzle, and I'll keep an open mind about drastic reserve plays in the future.
DarkHound wrote: It's really interesting to hear the opposite thought process, thank you. We both forgot stuff and made different assumptions, so it's great to see the game can't be played entirely in theory. Honestly, I totally forgot about Lucius Transhuman. On my end, the shooting re-roll canticle basically doubles all the damage. The Knight can get 20" movement, and the Warglaives can advance, which makes hiding from them difficult.
The Lascannons versus Warlgaives is an interesting problem. 6 buffed Lascannon shots deals 11.3 average damage to a Warglaive with Rotate Ion Shields, so slightly worse than 50% chance to kill. 4 Lascannons into a 5++ Warglaive only deal 10.1 on average. You have to allocate the shots first, then I can pick which to buff, so I can even dodge the coin flip and Shield the 4 shots to ensure only 1 dies. It would be really hard to kill two. I assumed I'd have to hide from your shooting, so that's also why this theorizing is great; in practice I'd know to deploy aggressively anyway.
Anyway, you're right it would come down to the infantry. Hell, maybe I should just spend 3 CP to reserve everything and wait until the vehicles start to make a dent. It's definitely an interesting puzzle, and I'll keep an open mind about drastic reserve plays in the future.
Aside from the Fusilaves, which I think would be a huge mistake to try to use on the Ironstriders because of the AdMech Benediction stratagem, I think your thinking is correct. You need to deploy aggressively, even if it means taking it on the chin if you go second because if you don't get into firing positions, you'll be locked out of the midboard AND you will be behind on shooting.
Note that in the competitive version of this list, I would probably be packing 10 Ballistarii, so it's not as easy a problem to unwind. Your comments do make me wonder if it's better to run them as two units of 3x Lascannons and 2x Autocannons each rather than 5x Lascannon and 5x Autocannon separately.
Ultimately, I think Lucius is going to be very competitive simply because of structural advantages. I have forward deployment tools to reserve an 18" area of the board between my deployment and an objective. I can see who wins the roll off before applying defensive buffs to control the flow of the first turn. I can control where my Flare unit is going to be. I have great counter-charging with multiple ways to force the opponent to fight last. I have bombs to reinforce my infantry as needed.
What do we think of the wording on the 'Assassin Constructs' strategm:
until that fight is resolved, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit.
No mention of phases, does that mean as long as they remain in engagement range they retain that +1 to Attacks? And if so, if I charge the unit in my charge phase, use the strategm, and my opponent then charges something else into them in their charge phase, I can use the strategm again to give them an additional +1? Is there any precedent for what 'until the fight is resolved' means?
That's similar to how their transonic weapons used to work in 7th where after the first round of combat they just stayed better until they charged something or were charged again.
Well, since the only change to Secutari is they get Doctrina instead of Canticles, but DIDNT get core, they seem pretty dead now, especially since hoplite weapons didn't get the new arc rule. Sad, I really like the models and have... 30... of them........
Not unexpected. Secutarii are titanguard and dont follow the regular skitarii things.. They dont get a dogma, they dont get CORE... They're a fringe FW model and will probably remain that way until they go poof or legends...
Onagers and Balistarii are two sides of the same coin.
Neutron laser is still the best loadout sans against flyers, but it is a good chunk more durable than ballistarii.
You could say a Onager is a beefed up Balistarii with the point difference going into defenses.
Unfortunately, Dunecrawlers are only more durable out of context from the rest of the book. Ironstriders are core units, which means they get access to all the buffs: Firepoint Telemetry Cache, Logos ignore AP-1 and 2, Lucius Transhuman. This is the way the book is going to be for a couple years, so it's probably worth investing in 4 or 5 of them.
thats true, but you wont always have those things available as they're limited supply and all in all sometimes costly in pts.
Onagers are more of a "stand alone" thing that can stand on its 4 legs without support.
Are chickens better? Definately. But that doesnt mean you cant stack chickens and onagers if you happen to need those buffs for other things that are important. En contraire, if you stack all those buffs on chickens, the enemy is somewhat likely to ignore those and shoot the rest of your army. And it cant hurt if the rest of your army has at least some resilience left.
You can buy Helverins and convert them into Ballistarii if you want them slightly cheaper.
I have my 10 from way back, so I know what I will be running.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, the new Core Rulebook FAQ has a new ruling for Rare Rules stating that when it comes to "Defensive Rules that Apply to Attacks with Specific Characteristics." The bullet point rule added to Core Rules is that we always use the modified damage characteristic (regardless of timing) of such attacks. So Lucius Bombers with Chaff Launcher get +1 to save against D2 weapons now.
So that means I need to modify my list again. 2+ against D1 and D2 weapons on top of Hard to Hit sounds glorious...
Considering the Chaff launcher is pretty expensive and it removes the anti-aura ability it better be.
But that means pretty much only single-shot anti-tank is good against those and thats some good news!
I don’t know if this is just me and it’s anecdotal evidence but I always found seismic bomb to be the more useful trick.
Even pre aura nerfs the amount of times I excitedly wanted to turn something off - only to be told “it’s not an aura it’s a contagion etc” meant I thought bugger it the damn thing has such finite applications I’m not fussed
bombers with a chaff launcher served me well until the codex comes out, I plan to try and keep these going ahead. They soak up fire, score engage on all fronts, deal mortal wounds and slow down a lot of fast/scary targets.
Seems there's a lot of weird debate about the ruling. I honestly don't see the problem. But apparently, there are three interesting questions:
1. Does Lucius dogma apply to D2 attacks when they are allocated to a target with Chaff Launcher?
2. Does Lucius dogma apply to Grav-gun? Corollary: Does Grav-gun go to DD3 because of Lucius dogma?
3. Does Chaff Launcher apply to Grav-gun?
All of this is resolved neatly if you assume we apply all of the modifications to the attacks first before checking if defensive abilities apply to them, but people love the Sisphyean task of trying to make GW rules make sense.
Suzuteo wrote: Seems there's a lot of weird debate about the ruling. I honestly don't see the problem. But apparently, there are three interesting questions:
1. Does Lucius dogma apply to D2 attacks when they are allocated to a target with Chaff Launcher?
2. Does Lucius dogma apply to Grav-gun? Corollary: Does Grav-gun go to DD3 because of Lucius dogma?
3. Does Chaff Launcher apply to Grav-gun?
All of this is resolved neatly if you assume we apply all of the modifications to the attacks first before checking if defensive abilities apply to them, but people love the Sisphyean task of trying to make GW rules make sense.
1) I think so, with the new FAQ.
2-Nitpick) Aren't Grav Guns D2 against 3+ targets, not Dd3?
2) Grav Guns go off the save characteristic. Lucius doesn't modify that-it only adds to the save roll.
Suzuteo wrote: Seems there's a lot of weird debate about the ruling. I honestly don't see the problem. But apparently, there are three interesting questions:
1. Does Lucius dogma apply to D2 attacks when they are allocated to a target with Chaff Launcher?
2. Does Lucius dogma apply to Grav-gun? Corollary: Does Grav-gun go to DD3 because of Lucius dogma?
3. Does Chaff Launcher apply to Grav-gun?
All of this is resolved neatly if you assume we apply all of the modifications to the attacks first before checking if defensive abilities apply to them, but people love the Sisphyean task of trying to make GW rules make sense.
it's pretty straight forward after that FAQ, the people questioning it either havent read it or have disregarded it. Apply all modifiers first, then determine abilities. Easy. They're caught up on this 'at allocation' step and seem to refuse to acknowledge any alteration to it.
Yet we're all happy that 'fight last after all eligible units from your army' is functionally equivalent to 'fight last' despite the wording difference.
Finally got my new codex and wow, I'm absolutely blown away at the amount of synergy and the sheer breadth of builds that seem possible. I love it, but the codex is laughably complex in some ways
That being said I'm wondering if this would be a viable, not tourney winning but at least competent, 1500pt list to start off with while I build up to a 2K list which will probably require more chickens or something.
The idea behind my HQ choices is that the marshall can give the rerolls to most of my force so the enginseer can focus on handing out the logi buff and/or buffing an onager. I chose programmed retreat so that my marshall can give a free fall back to either blob if they get tied up.
Troops -3x breachers
heavy arc rifles and hydraulic claws
-20x rangers
tether and omnispex
-20x vanguard
tether and omnispex
-10x rangers
I went for one blob of vanguard and one of rangers to take advantage of both stratagems and because who doesn't want skitarii hordes? I took the unit of 10 rangers as a backup unit to still make decent use of the rapid fire or wrath of mars strats if the big blob gets removed but maybe I would be better served by 2 units of 5 to play objectives? The breachers are just a bodyguard for the enginseer and marshall who can take pot shots from behind my wall of skitarii.
Elites -5x infiltrators with taser goads
These are here to perform actions or sit on objectives, maybe some light chaff clearing duties as well.
Fast Attack -Ironstrider with las
-Ironstrider with las
-9x raiders
tether
I decided to run each chicken individually as I don't have enough of them in my collection to maximize buffs in a large unit and the solo chickens can take advantage of mars and canticle rerolls. I decided on a unit of 9 raiders because with wrath of mars they should reliably snipe characters and they can screen and kill chaff fairly effectively too.
Heavy Support -Onager
neutron, 2 stubbers
-Onager
neutron, 2 stubbers
-Onager
icarus
To be honest I just want to use my three onagers, they were pretty expensive IRL and I can't afford to replace my heavy support with the newer models. They're here as a bit of extra anti-tank and to potentially capitalize on the "eradication of flesh" objective by being tanky.
Agents of the Imperium -Eversor Assassin
I spent a long time converting an eversor assassin to look like Revenant from Apex legends so I kind of just wanted an excuse to use him but he still seems relatively decent as a distraction carnifex who can clear chaff or kill unprotected weaker characters.
My main questions are would it be better to run the squad of 10 rangers as 2 of 5 and is it worth giving any of my alphas warlord traits or relics? Any tips or feedback would be very helpful!
That all seems perfectly reasonable. The Rangers should definitely be 2 units of 5 so you can spread out ObSec and complete more actions. The only thing I worry about is your list has very little melee ability. You may run into situations where you can't push an enemy off an objective.
You should definitely take Firepoint Telemetry Cache and Battle-sphere Uplink on the 20 man squads (doesn't matter which, they can exchange them with the tether). That gives you cover and ignore Heavy and Assault penalties. I'm not so big on giving Skitarii relics, but the Skull of Elder Nikola on the Raiders would be a hilarious spoiler pick when going first against vehicle heavy armies like Drukhari.
The list would benefit tremendously from upgrading the Enginseer to a Manipulus. The Skitarii are some of your biggest damage dealers, so that buff performs way better than +1 BS on one Dunecrawler. You can make the point difference by dropping the extra stubbers on the Neutron Dunecrawlers and dropping one Raider.
Thanks for the feedback! That makes a lot of sense, to be honest I had completely overlooked the manipulus and that ability seems incredibly strong on the rangers, I will definitely find the points for that.
And yeah I was worried about the lack of melee too and when I expand to 2k I was thinking about adding priests but for now I can probably clear chaff in combat alright with the raiders' newly improved melee abilities.I think the eversor can fill that role too if I use it as more of a countercharge piece against agrressive lists rather than a distraction. Since he makes 8 attacks on the charge with bonus attacks for every model killed and a fight twice stratagem he can kill hordes quite well and with his power sword he can probably kill some tougher things. In fact he seems pretty good against a skitarii blob actually
Octovol wrote: it's pretty straight forward after that FAQ, the people questioning it either havent read it or have disregarded it. Apply all modifiers first, then determine abilities. Easy. They're caught up on this 'at allocation' step and seem to refuse to acknowledge any alteration to it.
Yet we're all happy that 'fight last after all eligible units from your army' is functionally equivalent to 'fight last' despite the wording difference.
Agreed. I don't know why they are complicating things. This isn't like MTG where logic is hardwired into the game.
DarkHound wrote: You should definitely take Firepoint Telemetry Cache and Battle-sphere Uplink on the 20 man squads (doesn't matter which, they can exchange them with the tether). That gives you cover and ignore Heavy and Assault penalties. I'm not so big on giving Skitarii relics, but the Skull of Elder Nikola on the Raiders would be a hilarious spoiler pick when going first against vehicle heavy armies like Drukhari.
Is Battle-sphere Uplink worth it? I suppose it would be if I ran Rangers? Firepoint Telemetry Cache and Multitasking Cortex are my mandatory picks. The former to give Ballistarii cover in the open, and the latter to make Banners viable for a horde.
Temporcopia on an Infiltrator unit is great. Combined with Corpuscarii, you have two big units that can force fight last.
This seems like a good opportunity to ask:
The big five brick of ironstriders. Did you encounter issues getting LOS/maneuvering through terrain and the like? Did you just string them across the back of the field? How effective were they and would autocannons instead have been more effective in this match?
I'm trying to figure out how I want to set up my units and whether I want 2x3 lascannon with 1x4 autocannon, or just go nuts with 3x5 lascannons. I'm just a bit concerned about the logistics of pushing those units of huge bases around.
Oh I didn't accuse you of tailoring.
I wasn't intending to accuse you of anything.
Its just that Tyranids are in a pretty bad position right now and bringing a very strong admech list against a struggling army is almost guaranteed for him to have a bad time.
But after a 6/6 he probably can stomach the steamroll, thats fair
Well gotta say the new codex gives a lot of interesting choice for metalica, especially combined with the new Charadon book. Just wish I could actually get a codex to read.
For those folks who can actually play, have you found it worthwhile to bring raven knights with Metalica or are they not worth it? Torn between an auxilary iron cog detachment with a magaera or 3 warglaive. Both seem solid, but the 4cp investment to get them not so much. This codex eats CP at an alarming rate before you even hit the table, so Im trying to avoid running extra bits I dont need.
Other than that, Im struggling to find a character that I like with the iron lung and perhaps radioactive emanations. About the only thing that makes sense is a Manipulus, but he doesnt give the movement buff anymore so Im not quite as tempted to run him up. A dominus is the other option, but hes not exactly tough in melee either.
That said, I really like everything I see so far and honestly my biggest complaint is figuring out what on earth Im going to run due to all these options. The onager and kastelans seem a bit underwhelming too but Im sure Ill figure something out
So I'm between a rock and a hard place of Vanguard vs Rangers and I'll tell you for why.
I'm looking at taking 2 blobs of 20 with support (Marshall w/Raiment & BSU, Dominus w/Logi Initial & Manipulus w/Magi Advance)
The additional shot on the carbine is great, the auto wound is wonderful (partnering with Magi advance for a further wound roll) however the lower range makes camping a bit less enticing - Obviously mitigated by the Manipulus Galvanic Field - However the lower strength with weight of attacks meaning a 4 doesn't wound 4T and gives us a -1 with the Manipulus.
one less attack on the rangers obviously cuts their damage output by a third (more so with the Magi additional damage) - Now against 4T though, the damaging on 4's is pretty big as well as wounding T7 on 5's instead of 6's. Stacking to give -2 AP is also lubbly
The additional range on the rangers is great, camping a position with effective 36" range is pretty nifty.
Coupling with this I'm unsure even what forge world to take... The whole tentative list is in the spoiler tags, I'm also undecided on which dogs to take. Give a brother some advice
Ideasweasel wrote: If you are sold on those models Mars or Lucius jumps out to me
I couldn't imagine what else I'd want to take at this point in time? It seems like it does a job - Only things in question would be electropriests but I really like them. So those are the two I'm mainly debating between - Solar Blessing seems absolutely bonquers to me but there is this classic Mars thing which sits in the back of your head.
tigerstyle wrote: So I'm between a rock and a hard place of Vanguard vs Rangers and I'll tell you for why.
Spoiler:
I'm looking at taking 2 blobs of 20 with support (Marshall w/Raiment & BSU, Dominus w/Logi Initial & Manipulus w/Magi Advance)
The additional shot on the carbine is great, the auto wound is wonderful (partnering with Magi advance for a further wound roll) however the lower range makes camping a bit less enticing - Obviously mitigated by the Manipulus Galvanic Field - However the lower strength with weight of attacks meaning a 4 doesn't wound 4T and gives us a -1 with the Manipulus.
one less attack on the rangers obviously cuts their damage output by a third (more so with the Magi additional damage) - Now against 4T though, the damaging on 4's is pretty big as well as wounding T7 on 5's instead of 6's. Stacking to give -2 AP is also lubbly
The additional range on the rangers is great, camping a position with effective 36" range is pretty nifty.
Coupling with this I'm unsure even what forge world to take... The whole tentative list is in the spoiler tags, I'm also undecided on which dogs to take. Give a brother some advice.
Aren't you over buffing 8point models?
Some simple power sword wielding CC dudes will mulch Skitarri troops.
30" is a giant threat range now boards are smaller and being able to move into the middle of the board, means the +6" is kind of wasted on rangers.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Personally I think 3 big squads is the magic number when you consider = 1) to hold the vanguard strategem, 2) Holds the ranger strategem (either Wrath and/or Volley Fire) & 3) Holds the buffs. And fully buffed Vanguard seem lovely!
The ideal feels to be 1-2xVanguard in a rad-saturated patrol (Manipulus & maybe Marshall) & 1x Ranger in a Mars whatever detachment..having a reliable way to triggering a full Wrath of Mars seems golden.
Razerous wrote: Some simple power sword wielding CC dudes will mulch Skitarri troops.
with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn, that means the power swords wound on a 4+ at best and they still get a 5+ which is better than their native 6++ being able to autotank 1/2 of all wound and them make 1/3 of all saves, even if they hit you with 40 attacks and hit every single one, only 20 wound and you save 6-7, not amazing, but off the top of my head I don't know a unit that can deal 40 power sword attacks in a single turn.
It's just a thought, I played my first game with new codex (1000pts) and was shocked how durable skitarii are now.
Hey guys, the other day I hosted my first live stream with two awesome guests who are top end players within the Admech community and we had a fantastic discussion about the new Codex and where it stands as well as what people can expect from it.
The complexity of the codex is through the roof and it has enough depth that we'll be discovering things for a long time to come but I thought you might enjoy listening to it as well. Something I found very interesting is the increase in people mixing Skitarii and Kataphrons in lists now, as it occurred in the past but was rather rare, and now it appears to be trending towards a common feature.
with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn.
200 points of lightning claw BA vets? No CP usage. Kills 11 in assault doctrine.
I get they're not immortal, but trading 88pts of models to tie up 200pts of models seems like it could be a good trade, especially if you have something to shoot them off the board with if you fall back next turn (which it seems AdMech now have in abundance).
There is so much in the codex the more I read and theory craft the more unique and nasty lists I see. I didn't get round to using everything in the 8th codex and I played a lot, I think there will be a lot in 9th I never get to try.
with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn.
200 points of lightning claw BA vets? No CP usage. Kills 11 in assault doctrine.
I get they're not immortal, but trading 88pts of models to tie up 200pts of models seems like it could be a good trade, especially if you have something to shoot them off the board with if you fall back next turn (which it seems AdMech now have in abundance).
There is so much in the codex the more I read and theory craft the more unique and nasty lists I see. I didn't get round to using everything in the 8th codex and I played a lot, I think there will be a lot in 9th I never get to try.
What I'm saying is the 200pts of melee can still trade with 200pts of AdMech. You'll likely lose most of the squad and HQ after morale and any other synergies the BA player may have.
The point being, don't over-buff skitarri toops.. they are already incredible. When I say overbuff, a single squad with strategems, two HQ's, doctrinas / canticles.. sure possible but overkill.
with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn.
200 points of lightning claw BA vets? No CP usage. Kills 11 in assault doctrine.
I get they're not immortal, but trading 88pts of models to tie up 200pts of models seems like it could be a good trade, especially if you have something to shoot them off the board with if you fall back next turn (which it seems AdMech now have in abundance).
There is so much in the codex the more I read and theory craft the more unique and nasty lists I see. I didn't get round to using everything in the 8th codex and I played a lot, I think there will be a lot in 9th I never get to try.
What I'm saying is the 200pts of melee can still trade with 200pts of AdMech. You'll likely lose most of the squad and HQ after morale and any other synergies the BA player may have.
The point being, don't over-buff skitarri toops.. they are already incredible. When I say overbuff, a single squad with strategems, two HQ's, doctrinas / canticles.. sure possible but overkill.
Played my friend's Salamanders list. The usual suspects: 2x5 Assault Intercessors in Impulsors, an Incursor squad, a Bladeguard Veteran Squad, 3x5 Aggressors, and outflanking 2x5 Eradicators.
Secondaries were Banners, Eradication, and Sequencing.
I won pretty handily, but I did not take notes or anything because it was a new codex, and I had to spend a lot of time explaining things; he wanted to know what AdMech could do just as much as I did. So this data is mostly just what I can remember. I think the big takeaway is that Lucius is just able to totally dominate the midboard right away, and there was no good way for him to take it back with one giant blob of nearly unkillable infantry parked there or another. Once his Bladeguard went down on turn two, that was pretty much it.
Lessons:
1. 2x5 Infiltrators might be better than a unit of 10x. I got to deploy first, and I put them right on top of the center objective. They were all killed via shooting without doing a thing on turn 1; he went first. But they did their job and left plenty of room to Solar Flare and then Deep Strike.
2. Vanguard are ridiculously strong. A unit of 20 Vanguard killed 4 Aggressors through their Unyielding stratagem with Enriched Rounds on turn one. And with Logi, Transhuman, and Solar Blessing, he pretty much did not even bother shooting at them turn one; they were forced to on turn two, and with the Bladeguard, they killed all but 5 of them, but that was pretty much the turn. And that leads me to my next point.
3. Without buffs, your infantry die very, very fast. I mean, these are Salamanders, but holy crap did I have to scoop up lots of my dudes. Deep striking is also not as great for squishy units because they don't get any of the Command Phase bonuses. I used Protector Doctrina on turn 1, mostly because he didn't really have the range to threaten me until turn 2, when I used my Bulwark. I cleared two Aggressor units on my turn 1 because they moved out of cover to shoot my Infiltrators. And my Corpuscarii and Vanguard managed to paste the Bladeguard Veteran Squad on turn 2. But then the Corpuscarii were wiped out in response; my second Vanguard unit fared better, but mostly because his attention was on making sure those Corpuscarii did not survive to see another turn. I began buffing the Vanguard on turn 2 after that.
4. Lucius probably cannot make good use of Dragoons. Might be the deployment, but the army balled up on objectives, which made moving these units up to the frontline a bit challenging. They did eventually get stuck in against some Eradicators, but the game was well in hand by then. If they were Ballistarii, they would have been able to contribute more on turn 1; the Ballistarii were just hammering him all game, and there was not much he could do about it; he had to fight for objectives.
5. Infoslave Skull makes it pretty hard for Eradicators to outflank against the Ballistarii; I cannot believe the restriction is AdMech Core and not AdMech Infantry. This makes it pretty easily screen them out entirely; they come within 12" of the Ballistarii, they get deleted. Having 2x5 Ballistarii would expand this net even wider. They eventually did come in and shoot the Dragoons, but the dice were cold, so my Dragoons, Raiders, and Vanguard just overwhelmed them.
6. Lucius is all about the objectives game now. Multitasking Cortex feels mandatory for Banners flexibility; Raiders, Vanguard, and Ironstriders all benefit. And Acquisition is the most powerful stratagem in AdMech right now. It's pretty much 1 CP to keep a banner up.
7. In terms of secondaries, Uncharted Sequencing and Engagement are both bit trickier than I'd thought with this list, but that probably is something that can improve over time with more practice. Also considering WWSWF with the Ballistarii units and a unit of Breachers or something. Might mean I have to break up the Corpuscarii bomb though.
laam999 wrote: Are you not tempted to Solar flare the dragoons to use them as a distraction carnifex?
They don't really have an immediate impact unless they make the 9" charge, so not really. If I had Solar Flared them, they would just be standing there waiting to be charged.
Suzuteo wrote: 1. 2x5 Infiltrators might be better than a unit of 10x. I got to deploy first, and I put them right on top of the center objective. They were all killed via shooting without doing a thing on turn 1; he went first. But they did their job and left plenty of room to Solar Flare and then Deep Strike.
Yup, I felt that too running 1x8 (points limit prevented 10). That's why I was suspicious of all this Temporcopia non-sense: in practice the Infiltrators are not shock troops, they're board control. They score objectives and complete actions, because if you deploy a giant block of them up close, your opponent is going to delete them. Honestly, I think deploying them too far ahead isn't always warranted either, and the utility of their Infiltration can just be that they deploy last so you have full information. You can always take advantage of Circuitous Assassins to reposition them later.
Suzuteo wrote: 1. 2x5 Infiltrators might be better than a unit of 10x. I got to deploy first, and I put them right on top of the center objective. They were all killed via shooting without doing a thing on turn 1; he went first. But they did their job and left plenty of room to Solar Flare and then Deep Strike.
Yup, I felt that too running 1x8 (points limit prevented 10). That's why I was suspicious of all this Temporcopia non-sense: in practice the Infiltrators are not shock troops, they're board control. They score objectives and complete actions, because if you deploy a giant block of them up close, your opponent is going to delete them. Honestly, I think deploying them too far ahead isn't always warranted either, and the utility of their Infiltration can just be that they deploy last so you have full information. You can always take advantage of Circuitous Assassins to reposition them later.
My thinking as well. There are better melee units if you want them, but in general, absorbing charges with mass and then falling back so your guns can open up on targets seems more reliable for AdMech.
I think it's fine to deploy them aggressively. Just don't expect to see them on your turn.
I also do think that Infiltrators are mostly useable for Deploy Scramblers and/or get a lucky charge of and take a backfield objective to force the enemy to commit something to come back and hold it.
I've been looking at a 10 man unit of Ruststalkers quite longingly for now - they really seem like they can pack a punch.
A 10 man has unbuffed 31 S5 -3 D1 attacks which is nothing to scoff at. The real kicker imo is that if you spend some CP on them they can get Temporcopia and be immune to charges. If you splurge another CP on them for Host you can give them Firepoint Telemery which gives them an always-on 2+ save, or a 1+ when in terrain. Mind that their Wasteland Stalkers rule also works when in Dense Cover or Heavy Cover. An unsuspecting opponent might find himself pretty surprised if one goes second and suddenly these guys end up not only taking an objective from you, but requiring a good bit of firepower to remove them from it as well.
That way they are resilient to shooting, can take a light counterpunch in stride, blend many things they touch and might be a real PITA to remove.
Thairne wrote: I've been looking at a 10 man unit of Ruststalkers quite longingly for now - they really seem like they can pack a punch.
A 10 man has unbuffed 31 S5 -3 D1 attacks which is nothing to scoff at. The real kicker imo is that if you spend some CP on them they can get Temporcopia and be immune to charges. If you splurge another CP on them for Host you can give them Firepoint Telemery which gives them an always-on 2+ save, or a 1+ when in terrain. Mind that their Wasteland Stalkers rule also works when in Dense Cover or Heavy Cover. An unsuspecting opponent might find himself pretty surprised if one goes second and suddenly these guys end up not only taking an objective from you, but requiring a good bit of firepower to remove them from it as well.
That way they are resilient to shooting, can take a light counterpunch in stride, blend many things they touch and might be a real PITA to remove.
My primary concern is delivery. I mean, you could foot slog them, but they aren't especially fast, and they won't beat 10 Bladeguard Vets. But they are more point efficient, all things considered.
That said, if you are playing Lucius like me... do we need a fighting unit at all? A lot of stuff can just fall back and shoot in this army now. That or act as a tarpit all on their own.
I think the great part is that ruststalkers can kill a unit that is holding and blocking an objective, while at the same time take control of that objective.
Exactly.They might not beat 10 Bladeguard, but that is a tall order in itself. If you apply a CP and assume a 2+ WS, they do kill 4 on avg though.
But expecting 170 pts to kill 350pts of Bladeguard is a bit of a harsh metric
They do take it away from a lot of things and are relatively tough to remove, like I said.
Delivery might be a problem - or not, depending on where the objective is. They're not likely to take an obj in the enemy deploy, but a midfield objective can be reached with aggressive deployment (and with a potential 1+ with bulwark, that is not unreasonable).
Honestly with the durability buffs you can stack on them with FTPC getting a 2+ whenever they want, a 1+ save in terrain (and possibly -1 to hit in dense cover), and possibly Bulwark Imperative turn 1 they are probably fine just walking up the board and taking advantage of terrain. They're a lot more durable than you'd expect them to be, getting a shiny new 5++ definitely helps. And an 8" move is fast enough IMO especially if they're just advancing turn 1 anyway they probably won't have an issue getting into combat with something by turn 2 at latest. And if you're worried about them getting jumped throw Temporcopia on them to negate your opponent's charge. Plus Bladeguards are a max unit size of 6 anyway, I can see a unit of 10 handling them pretty well especially with Marshal rerolls to hit and wound and Assassin Constructs for +1A.
always measure to the base if it exists unless a rule says otherwise.
Some units that for some reason have a normal base instead of a flyer base have a rule that says use the hull anyway
Broke the Infiltrators into 2x5 units and reduced the Raiders to a 5x unit. Their job is to forward deploy, carve out space for Deep Strikes, deny outflanking, and score Engage.
Combined the Ranger MSUs and upgraded them to a 20x unit because now I have two Infiltrator MSUs. Still got two Vanguard blobs. Going to pick one unit one turn one to Flare forward with Bulwark protection; regardless of my choice, the Rangers will be able to shoot without penalty thanks to Raiment. The others will footslog from behind and pile onto objectives. Corpuscarii are the deep striking bomb; they have better durability and firepower than Kataphrons still. I take Cartogrammist because I always intend to Deep Strike the Corpuscarii and want to still have the option to Deep Strike two other units, such as the Vanguard.
Giant firebase of 2x5 Ballistarii to delete vehicles and trouble units that the infantry may struggle against.
Currently debating these points:
1) Separate Lascannon and Autocannon units or to two units with 3x Lascannon and 2x Autocannon each? Keeping them separate seems to be the better call because I can choose which I need to protect more.
2) There's not much melee in this army because I didn't really feel a need for it. Nothing I have seems to be able to beat a dedicated melee unit, so my plan is to absorb a charge with a Vanguard blob, then fall back and shoot the melee off the board.
3) Do I even want to bother with Rangers? If I drop them, I don't even need the Raiment really. Should I try Breachers or Destroyers?
So 6 flier lists. I’m thinking of taking the plunge and mixing Mars and Lucius goodness. All the usual Lucius tricks like solar flare infantry bricks etc with the Mars reroll trickery for chickens and planes
Am I crazy? How long will I get before one rule change renders my army useless (like a points hike or fliers can’t get canticles)
I'm not sure about blocks of 20 Rangers outside of Mars. Unless you spend CP on relics or traits, you really get stung by the Heavy penalty; it's hard to get LoS with all 20 guys even if (especially if) they stand still. With Mars they make sense because they're the most reliable way to hit 6 mortals on Wrath (Vanguard aren't ideal since they often skip the wound roll). Without buffs (since they apply fairly evenly and I don't wanna calculate more) 20 Vanguard spending 1 CP for Enriched inflicts an average 11 wounds againist T4 3+, while 20 Rangers spends 2 CP for Rapid Fire to inflict 13.4 wounds. Rangers do 20% more damage, but at significantly higher CP cost. Without buffs, Rangers and Vanguard do pretty close to the same damage (6.5 vs 6.7 at T4 3+).
I think you definitely should go 3 Las + 2 Autocannons for the Ironstriders. You get the option to lose autocannons first no matter what the opponent targets.
Ideasweasel, I don't think you're at any risk of a nerf ruining fliers. The only things to watch out for are the jump pack troops getting their stratagem nerfed, and maybe Wrath of Mars eating a nerf.
DarkHound wrote: I'm not sure about blocks of 20 Rangers outside of Mars. Unless you spend CP on relics or traits, you really get stung by the Heavy penalty; it's hard to get LoS with all 20 guys even if (especially if) they stand still. With Mars they make sense because they're the most reliable way to hit 6 mortals on Wrath (Vanguard aren't ideal since they often skip the wound roll). Without buffs (since they apply fairly evenly and I don't wanna calculate more) 20 Vanguard spending 1 CP for Enriched inflicts an average 11 wounds againist T4 3+, while 20 Rangers spends 2 CP for Rapid Fire to inflict 13.4 wounds. Rangers do 20% more damage, but at significantly higher CP cost. Without buffs, Rangers and Vanguard do pretty close to the same damage (6.5 vs 6.7 at T4 3+).
Yeah. I was doing the math, and I think Vanguard are generally better just because: 1) Move and shoot without penalty. 2) Not as vulnerable to being ripped into shreds by melee. 3) Most threats they would be facing are non-vehicle and that Enriched Rounds is crazy good value with reroll 1s to hit.
DarkHound wrote: I think you definitely should go 3 Las + 2 Autocannons for the Ironstriders. You get the option to lose autocannons first no matter what the opponent targets.
I am thinking so as well. Simplifies my defensive situation and lets me have a sixth Lascannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Follow-up question: One thing that I was considering doing was to buff the guns on my Raiders. 18x S5 AP2 D1 sniper shots is pretty sweet.
That said, in practical terms, I never really had a chance to do it because I only had one Manipulus, and he was babysitting Vanguard. =\
Cool I think I might go for it. And funny enough I just listened to a pod cast with archmagos rickard nilson and he said he thinks a Lucius 6 flier list might just be the strongest thing we have just now
Do we think we could improve on that? I like raiders but I’m not sure what a single minimum squad brings to the table
Is also be likely to swap out a breacher squad for 20 rangers that i would have in deep strike maybe use the 5 points extra to upgrade the manipulus gun
While I understand the six aircraft list, I think it's impractical to have that many, especially if your opponent can lock you out of objectives early or deep strike. I think Infiltrators are a must, and maybe 4 planes would be easier to manage?
Also, I cleaned up my list and incorporated suggestions:
I’ve got my hands on the new codex but am yet to play a game, reading all these insights into the book has been very interesting and helpful so thank you to everyone who has been contributing. The book definitely seems more complex to play than our last which is great but in finding it difficult to theory craft without getting some games in.
Lucius seems strong, particularly as it helps our Troops be effective and adds general durability but does anyone have any thoughts on what makes a good Mars list? Controlling Doctrinas and Canticles is obviously going to be key to success but which units are well equipped to take advantage of this while still playing well to the mission?
I maybe needed coffee but can’t you just legio teleportarium them?
Or did you have 2 other teleport targets and you want to deep strike 3 units?
Yeah, I wanted the option to teleport two other units.
Another debate I am having is whether I should run 2x Fusilaves or a second unit of Ballistarii. Both are hard to hide, but the Fusilave is essentially indirect shooting.
I have an unrelated question: what do you think about taking Data-tethers on 20 man Skitarii without a Marshall? My squad has consistently lost models to morale. Obviously the best solution is Acquisition at any Cost, but that's not always available. I'm thinking 5 points investment, then some awareness to keep an Enhanced Data-tether nearby might alleviate this problem until they reach an objective. That pushes 6 casualties to a 50% success instead of a 16%. I've begun to think Data-tether and Omnispex are mandatory on 20 man units.
DarkHound wrote: I have an unrelated question: what do you think about taking Data-tethers on 20 man Skitarii without a Marshall? My squad has consistently lost models to morale. Obviously the best solution is Acquisition at any Cost, but that's not always available. I'm thinking 5 points investment, then some awareness to keep an Enhanced Data-tether nearby might alleviate this problem until they reach an objective. That pushes 6 casualties to a 50% success instead of a 16%. I've begun to think Data-tether and Omnispex are mandatory on 20 man units.
I think it's worthwhile if they have no other source of Ld.
This is why I think that Acquisition is the best stratagem in AdMech though. I certainly got more value out of it than any other stratagem. I also take steps to hide as many of my infantry in reserve as possible.
I think if you want to run a 20 man blob you have several options.
First a singular vanguard blob for enriched rounds that dont need much support.
Second option is you take a manipulus in which case you should have a second blob imo, as he can only buff a few specific units.
Omnispex is great on both 10+ units I think. Datatether should be used on 10+ units that are far away from our Hqs and BSDT like ironstriders etc. that also give LD.
If you are running a flyer without chaff launcher it might also give great ld bonus, for the first turn at least.
I am seriously considering an Inquisitor with Psychic Fortitude Psy Power for my 20-man squads.
1. He grants a LD 9 Aura to nearby units as standard. not sure about the combo with Data-Tether (would they go to LD 10?)
2. He can prevent morale tests on a WC4 power for a turn.
thinking about the Xenos/CP Refund/Bio-Toxins/Force Sword version - free CP refunds on a 5+? maybe 1/2 additional CP too.
I'm thinking adding a small AdMech contingent to an Imperial soup, most likely Rangers over vanguard because I prefer the models, the Warlord is most likely not going to be in this contingent, so no relic, WLT or funky army-locked rules. I'm looking at which forgeworld to get most use of the troops without breaking the bank points- and CP-wise, with only the base trait and the strat.
"Defensive" options for backfield / objectives / actions:
Lucius
Better resilience to small arms fire, extra range for backfield camping, one squad possibly in DS
Marshall (for the wound reroll)
2x5 Rangers with Plasma (backfield)
DSIng: 1x10 Vanguard? Or just 1x5 for objectives / engage / scramblers ?
Stygies VIII
Better resilience in backfield, strat to occupy the board at deployment
Technoarcheologist (for actions'n'shoot)
1x5 Rangers with Arquebus (backfield)
1x5 Rangers/Vanguard to deploy forward for board control
"Offensive" options for more fun:
Metalica
Makes Rangers suddenly mobile, sweet for the Arquebus
Strat is cool to have
Marshall
2x5 Rangers with Arquebus - they benefit most to be able to reposition to find angles
Alternatively:
Manipulus with Magnarail: he becomes mobile as well so can follow the squad.
Special weapons improve:
Arcrifle: 1 shot at 36", double-taps at 18" with S6 AP-3 Dd3 & haywire
Plasma turns AP-4 and 36" range, Arquebus to AP-3 and mobile
So either:
1x10 Rangers with weapons
1x 15 Rangers naked for the RF strat: 60 shots at 18" S4 AP-2 D1
1x 15 vanguard for the 24" range and AP-1. Can advance without losing accuracy but tricky to keep the Manipulus in range
Agripinaa
Builds similar as Metalica, trading accuracy on the move for extra AP.
Strat has no use
Marshall
2x5 Rangers with Arquebus - not much need to move, Arquebus is AP-3 at 30", Rangers turn AP-2 at 15" for that tidbit extra teeth if the oppoenent tries to come and dislodge them
Alternatively:
Manipulus with Magnarail: hits on 3+ if moving but rail is AP-4 at 18"
Special weapons improve:
Arcrifle: 1 shot at 36", double-taps at 18" with S6 AP-4 Dd3 & haywire
Plasma is AP-5 at 18" (overkill...), Arquebus to AP-4 at 33"
So either:
1x10 Rangers with weapons
1x 15 Rangers naked for the RF strat: 60 shots at 18" S4 AP-3 D1
1x 15 vanguard for AP-1 at 24" and AP-2 at 12"
Compared to Metalica, the AP bonus to special weapons loses efficiency, but the naked Rangers/Vanguard can turn nasty with the Manipulus
are they all "bad" now? I have 15 of each skitarii infantry (planning to get more), every type of HQ choice, 6 ironstriders (could make more but they are troublesome conversions), and only 3 cavalry and 5 unbuilt infiltrators.
Just kind of generally wondering which direction I should focus with making more stuff.
You will have a hard time going wrong with Rangers and Vanguard, Ironstriders, and then other units to taste. Maybe two of the Marshals and Manipulus as they are worth doubling up on. Electropriests, infiltrators, rust-stalkers, fliers (other than the transport), the Petraxi infantry, and the cav are all good.
are they all "bad" now? I have 15 of each skitarii infantry (planning to get more), every type of HQ choice, 6 ironstriders (could make more but they are troublesome conversions), and only 3 cavalry and 5 unbuilt infiltrators.
Just kind of generally wondering which direction I should focus with making more stuff.
Robots are fine, especially if you can do some surgery and replace the arms. The trend seems to be one fist and one gun, but I'm not an expert. Pure shooting robots are probably still fine. Robots are also probably the best target for repeated Canticle stacking with Cawl and/or the stratagem.
Dunecrawlers and Disintegrators are fine too, but competing for the same job (backline objective holder). You probably won't run more than one or two of them total, though. I've been having success with both Icarus and Neutron Laser Dunecrawlers.
Given what you've got, bump the Vanguard up to 20 men and bring a few squads of 5 Rangers for objective holding/actions and you're good to go. A block of Ironstriders with a Marshall to support it, a Manipulus guiding the Vanguard, some robots and a couple tanks, and the Infiltrators and cavalry for disruption; it's a well-rounded list.
I'm thinking adding a small AdMech contingent to an Imperial soup, most likely Rangers over vanguard because I prefer the models, the Warlord is most likely not going to be in this contingent, so no relic, WLT or funky army-locked rules. I'm looking at which forgeworld to get most use of the troops without breaking the bank points- and CP-wise, with only the base trait and the strat.
Spoiler:
"Defensive" options for backfield / objectives / actions:
Lucius
Better resilience to small arms fire, extra range for backfield camping, one squad possibly in DS
Marshall (for the wound reroll) 2x5 Rangers with Plasma (backfield) DSIng: 1x10 Vanguard? Or just 1x5 for objectives / engage / scramblers ?
Stygies VIII
Better resilience in backfield, strat to occupy the board at deployment
Technoarcheologist (for actions'n'shoot) 1x5 Rangers with Arquebus (backfield) 1x5 Rangers/Vanguard to deploy forward for board control
"Offensive" options for more fun:
Metalica
Makes Rangers suddenly mobile, sweet for the Arquebus Strat is cool to have
Marshall 2x5 Rangers with Arquebus - they benefit most to be able to reposition to find angles
Alternatively:
Manipulus with Magnarail: he becomes mobile as well so can follow the squad. Special weapons improve: Arcrifle: 1 shot at 36", double-taps at 18" with S6 AP-3 Dd3 & haywire Plasma turns AP-4 and 36" range, Arquebus to AP-3 and mobile
So either: 1x10 Rangers with weapons 1x 15 Rangers naked for the RF strat: 60 shots at 18" S4 AP-2 D1 1x 15 vanguard for the 24" range and AP-1. Can advance without losing accuracy but tricky to keep the Manipulus in range
Agripinaa
Builds similar as Metalica, trading accuracy on the move for extra AP. Strat has no use
Marshall 2x5 Rangers with Arquebus - not much need to move, Arquebus is AP-3 at 30", Rangers turn AP-2 at 15" for that tidbit extra teeth if the oppoenent tries to come and dislodge them
Alternatively:
Manipulus with Magnarail: hits on 3+ if moving but rail is AP-4 at 18" Special weapons improve: Arcrifle: 1 shot at 36", double-taps at 18" with S6 AP-4 Dd3 & haywire Plasma is AP-5 at 18" (overkill...), Arquebus to AP-4 at 33"
So either: 1x10 Rangers with weapons 1x 15 Rangers naked for the RF strat: 60 shots at 18" S4 AP-3 D1 1x 15 vanguard for AP-1 at 24" and AP-2 at 12"
Compared to Metalica, the AP bonus to special weapons loses efficiency, but the naked Rangers/Vanguard can turn nasty with the Manipulus
AdMech don't really soup well because so much of their power is tied up Doctrinas and Canticles, which require a pure faction. My experience has been that special weapons are bad, and you either take the units at 5 men to do actions, or 20 men to maximize stratagems. A Manipulus is better than a Marshall for large units, and the Marshall kind of sucks without access to Warlord traits or Doctrinas. No matter which direction you go, you're missing out on a lot of power on top of the CP cost for the detachment.
Nostro wrote: I'm thinking adding a small AdMech contingent to an Imperial soup, most likely Rangers over vanguard because I prefer the models, the Warlord is most likely not going to be in this contingent, so no relic, WLT or funky army-locked rules. I'm looking at which forgeworld to get most use of the troops without breaking the bank points- and CP-wise, with only the base trait and the strat.
So... you want an AdMech unit that has no Canticles or Doctrina. Hm...
My first instinct is to suggest 20 Vanguard with a Manipulus that has Solar Flare, Luminescent Blessing, and Logi. It is a brutally efficient anti-non-vehicle strike package that can redeploy anywhere on the board on turn one. Also has Objective Secured, so it's almost impossible to unseat them from any objective they land on unless they want to burn all of their shooting and fighting to do so.
If you really want Rangers, then you probably want Mars. Even without Doctrina and Canticles, access to Wrath of Mars is essential to making them work. The Relic you would want is Raiment to let them move and shoot without penalty. Also take Logi, skip the WLT since Canticles does not work at all if your army is not entirely AdMech.
Finally, have you considered Graia? People used to splash it all the time for the deny stratagem. It has a nice WLT that allows for 6" Heroic Intervention on any Core unit. I guess you would have to take Vanguard though to get that Rad-Saturation aura into play.
ph34r wrote: So the Adeptus Mechanicus big boyes of yesteryear:
are they all "bad" now? I have 15 of each skitarii infantry (planning to get more), every type of HQ choice, 6 ironstriders (could make more but they are troublesome conversions), and only 3 cavalry and 5 unbuilt infiltrators.
Just kind of generally wondering which direction I should focus with making more stuff.
Robots are dead until they make them cheaper.
You can take two Dunecrawlers or Disintegrators with an Enginseer (spend 1 CP per turn to give both +1 to hit). Preferably in a Mars list for the per-unit rerolls (for the missiles usually). The idea here is that you bring 5x Ballistarii, 10x Sterylizors, and 5-9x Raiders in the FA slots, then two tanks in Heavy Support.
Question! The Solar Flare relic for Lucius says that you use it 'in the movement phase' but not 'at the end of the movement phase.' Would it be possible to use that relic on a unit before it moves, then have the unit move normally after redeploying?
"The Solar Flare: Lucius Model only. Once per battle, in your Movement phase, the bearer can use this Relic. If it does so, the bearer's unit and up to one friendly Lucius Core unit within 3'' of the bearer can be removed from the battlefield and set back up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9'' away from any enemy models. If two units are set back up on the battlefield using this relic, both units must be placed wholly within 6'' of each other."
i wouldnt say the dunecrawler or skorpius is 'bad' now, just not optimal. To be fair its really really hard to compare to ironstriders atm. They are so bonkers good i'd be shocked if they dont get nerfbat'd soon somehow. Somehow the entire codex buffs them and they already have a great cost vs effectiveness ratio.
'bad' usually means if you use it at all you are asking to get tabled. I dont think admech have any units that bad atm.
bmsattler wrote: Question! The Solar Flare relic for Lucius says that you use it 'in the movement phase' but not 'at the end of the movement phase.' Would it be possible to use that relic on a unit before it moves, then have the unit move normally after redeploying?
"The Solar Flare: Lucius Model only. Once per battle, in your Movement phase, the bearer can use this Relic. If it does so, the bearer's unit and up to one friendly Lucius Core unit within 3'' of the bearer can be removed from the battlefield and set back up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9'' away from any enemy models. If two units are set back up on the battlefield using this relic, both units must be placed wholly within 6'' of each other."
No. You cannot move after teleporting. You can move and then teleport though.
Another neat trick is that you can teleport units out of a fight in lieu of falling back. Then you can try the 9" charge.
Nostro wrote: I'm thinking adding a small AdMech contingent to an Imperial soup, most likely Rangers over vanguard because I prefer the models, the Warlord is most likely not going to be in this contingent, so no relic, WLT or funky army-locked rules. I'm looking at which forgeworld to get most use of the troops without breaking the bank points- and CP-wise, with only the base trait and the strat.
So... you want an AdMech unit that has no Canticles or Doctrina. Hm...
My first instinct is to suggest 20 Vanguard with a Manipulus that has Solar Flare, Luminescent Blessing, and Logi. It is a brutally efficient anti-non-vehicle strike package that can redeploy anywhere on the board on turn one. Also has Objective Secured, so it's almost impossible to unseat them from any objective they land on unless they want to burn all of their shooting and fighting to do so.
You can't give AdMech extra warlord traits and relics unless your Warlord is AdMech. The only exception is that you can give Skitarii a Relic, but that's not much consolation. Like I said, allied AdMech don't get access to almost any of their power.
DarkHound wrote: You can't give AdMech extra warlord traits and relics unless your Warlord is AdMech. The only exception is that you can give Skitarii a Relic, but that's not much consolation. Like I said, allied AdMech don't get access to almost any of their power.
True. But honestly, AdMech went from having some of the worst WLTs and relics to some of the best.
Oh, and don't forget that RAW, AdMech transports can load ANY infantry. 2x5 Assault Centurions, anyone?
Yeah don't try this for real if you don't want to be that guy, most translations have the <Forge-World> keyword included and it's pretty obvious it's meant to be this way
DarkHound wrote: You can't give AdMech extra warlord traits and relics unless your Warlord is AdMech. The only exception is that you can give Skitarii a Relic, but that's not much consolation. Like I said, allied AdMech don't get access to almost any of their power.
True. But honestly, AdMech went from having some of the worst WLTs and relics to some of the best.
Oh, and don't forget that RAW, AdMech transports can load ANY infantry. 2x5 Assault Centurions, anyone?
yeah.... that has a 99.9% chance of getting faq'ed.
Sorry for interrupting the conversation I just reviewed the Adeptus Mechanicus codex and you guys have the strongest codex in the game hands down. I am in awe of this codex the audacity of GW to release something this strong. WOW!!!!!
No, we don't.
The codex seems strong in theory until you actually play against it. Lots of moving parts which require the starts to align to work - one strong offensive and one strong defensive turn and then the codex falls of drastically.
So please stop spreading such hyperbole - its simply not true and gives a factually false impression of the codex.
It’s funny how none of the games top players see the admech codex as overpowered
Yet many local game store grognards are gnashing their teeth over it. You would think if it was so ‘ironhands/drukhari’ levels of bs that it would be the talk of the town by some of the ITC prominent figures right?
wish i could play with the new codex but GW has been shafting my local gaming store.
They got the sisters codex but refuse to send the admech ones for some damn reason. Grrr...
I went out and picked up 1 more box of skitarii when the codex dropped. which took me up to 20 rangers & slightly over 20 vanguard (with additional models holding various special weapons) (now all painted too). but that will be my limit I think. esp as I really still like the look of Lucius Breachers as some other troops choices.
Personally I think the codex is strong, but there are obvious weak points too. AdMech will really fear the sniper for instance (and SM Eliminators have dropped to 25ppm...). there is a lot of Synergy required for our units to perform well on the tabletop.
Thairne wrote: No, we don't.
The codex seems strong in theory until you actually play against it. Lots of moving parts which require the starts to align to work - one strong offensive and one strong defensive turn and then the codex falls of drastically.
So please stop spreading such hyperbole - its simply not true and gives a factually false impression of the codex.
The only thing holding this codex back from sheer dominance is the financial cost. The current Mech players will get the models they need soon enough as GW is having a hard time with their supply because of covid. When you guys get what you want/need miniature-wise and practice you will see that out of five turns you will always be stronger in at least two of those turns. The one strong offensive turn as you put it is one of the strongest alpha strikes I have seen in 40k history. Canticles and imperatives work at the start of the battle round which means you know who is going first or second so that one strong defensive/offensive turn will be used in the turn when the player can get the maximum value out of it.
While reviewing the codex at the beginning I was impressed with the Imperatives which is a selective buff that adds extreme value which can be given to a unit from a model that only costs 45 points! Even the flyers are strong they have the ability to drop bombs, reduce movement, and turn off auras.
This codex is one of the strongest codexes in 40k history! 80 str 4 ap 2 shots bs 2 re-roll 1's to hit and wound! At least that combo requires resources but the vanguard one where a 1 point stratagem allows 60 str 4 shots to wound on a 4+ is amazing. Without any buffs with 1 command point 160 points forces 30 saves before you roll to wound! I will stop with the troop choices because it only gets stronger the more you dive into the codex.
I am not a hater, I just believe this codex is coming and coming hard. There will always be a codex at the top and I believe it will be this 9th edition Mech codex. If my Grey Knights don't pass my eye test you will have another Mech player.
Nah, I think 60 is going to be close to the norm. Good time to practice speed painting them. I don't intend to field more than 30 with my Knights, but still I've gotten my Battle Ready recipe to ~30 minutes.
Vineheart01 wrote: wish i could play with the new codex but GW has been shafting my local gaming store.
They got the sisters codex but refuse to send the admech ones for some damn reason. Grrr...
If playing with the rules is the part holding you back, Wahapedia just updated the AdMech section. Personally, I don't bring my codex to games anyway. I keep a notebook with all the pertinent info: stat blocks, weapons, abilities, stratagems and buffs by phase, statistics against typical targets.
DarkHound wrote: Ah, and I had forgotten why I put CKO on ignore.
I don't even know who you are, but everyone is entitled to have an opinion. I am a very aggressive player and the combos in this codex match my style perfectly. I also play Necrons we have protocols which is a much worse version of canticles. You get to see who goes first then you get to select a canticle. Necrons have to arrange their version of canticles in turn order before the game starts and the protocols only work if you are within range of a noble. If you want your defensive protocol in turn 3 but you put it in turn 4 you are out of luck, mech doesn't have that problem. Small things like that add up and that is why this codex is so strong. From a Necron player's perspective canticles and imperatives are what protocols should be. That is one of the reasons I am very impressed with canticles and imperatives, not because it's OP but because that's how protocols should be. The forge world dogmas are strong, giving a horde army plus one to save against anti-horde weapons is not to be taken lightly. The buffs from the hqs and stratagems work well together, I love your codex.
I actually think AdMech's greatest strength is in its beta strike. We can weather the first shooting turn really well. Mars with armywide Bulwark and Shroudpsalm, Lucius with Bulwark, the dogma, and hiding stuff in reserves or behind ruins with the Solar Flare relic.
This means we can position with impunity and delete midboard assets for a structural advantage that most armies struggle to overcome.
I do think Lucius is the strongest of the FWs because of that dogma. Shroudpsalm and Bulwark are only one turn, but Solar Blessing is forever. People severely underestimate its impact on even things like Corpuscarii. The dogma and cover get him to 4+/5++/5+++, which is better than 3+/4++ against D1.
I am a noob to this codex, I am a bit confused with the canticles. Mars gives Skitarii units the canticles, why wouldn't they have it in the first place? They have the Adeptus mechanics keyword.
CKO wrote: I am a noob to this codex, I am a bit confused with the canticles. Mars gives Skitarii units the canticles, why wouldn't they have it in the first place? They have the Adeptus mechanics keyword.
I believe now the canticles by default only effect "CULT mechanicus" rather than all "ADEPTUS mechanicus".
Everything is "Adeptus Mechanicus", but skitarii have "SKITARII" and servitors/priests have "CULT mechanicus".
So, canticles only by default effect your servitors, tech-priests, robots, and basically anything that isn't crewed by a Skitarii.
So Cult units are struggling and I find myself looking at the Mechanicus Defense Cohort again. I appreciate that losing access to the strongest units in the book might not be the best way to improve the under-performing ones, but leave no stone unturned, eh? Admittedly, I have very little experience with Cult units.
The Cohort functionally replaces the Dogma for Kataphrons and Robots, but other units still get their Dogma, and everyone can still benefit from Forgeworld stratagems.
I'm thinking Lucius is a strong contender due to Luminescent and Deepstrike. The former is obviously a big deal for Kataphrons with Disgustingly Resilient, and the latter helps alleviate the core units' mobility issues. Of course the dogma is not very useful for Electropriests.
Obviously Agripinaa is the servitor faction and it pays dividends to bump huge blocks of Disgustingly Resilient Breachers to T6. Their Relic is just great, probably one of the best available. And what's more the Dogma is a pretty huge buff to Cartogramist deepstriking Corpuscarii.
I just recently played a game with some Lucius Breachers. They were very tanky - couldn’t hit to save their lives but as unit that didn’t want to die they were great
DarkHound wrote: So Cult units are struggling and I find myself looking at the Mechanicus Defense Cohort again. I appreciate that losing access to the strongest units in the book might not be the best way to improve the under-performing ones, but leave no stone unturned, eh? Admittedly, I have very little experience with Cult units.
The Cohort functionally replaces the Dogma for Kataphrons and Robots, but other units still get their Dogma, and everyone can still benefit from Forgeworld stratagems.
I'm thinking Lucius is a strong contender due to Luminescent and Deepstrike. The former is obviously a big deal for Kataphrons with Disgustingly Resilient, and the latter helps alleviate the core units' mobility issues. Of course the dogma is not very useful for Electropriests.
Obviously Agripinaa is the servitor faction and it pays dividends to bump huge blocks of Disgustingly Resilient Breachers to T6. Their Relic is just great, probably one of the best available. And what's more the Dogma is a pretty huge buff to Cartogramist deepstriking Corpuscarii.
I think it might be best to Mix-n-Match with the forgeworlds if going this route. e.g. take a Ryza Patrol - of Plasma Destroyers (for the strat), 20x Fulgurites, 1x Technoboy/Enginseer with Cartogrammist WL Trait - deepstrike the Fulgurites with an 8" charge, and maybe with canticles on T2 - 3D6 drop lowest charge too.
then take the rest of your list in Lucius or Agrippina probably with a bunch of breachers and kastellans.
Lucius
Mars
Stygies
Ryza
Metallica
Agripinaa
Graia
Presumably a Lucius list will be the first to top a GT. As a fan of Mars I find myself souping in Lucius. As we have no super doctrine do we think this will last. A lot of marine players I know are grumbling that we don’t lose anything
Although I think enough people complaining we have no chance of keeping it. Was the same with tactica oblique. Too many people cry about something then GW folds to the pressure
Although I think enough people complaining we have no chance of keeping it. Was the same with tactica oblique. Too many people cry about something then GW folds to the pressure
Similar ability for marines got the restriction for not doing both in one turn in the latest FAQs, so I would almost put money on it:
*Page 104 – Guerilla Tactics
Add the following onto the end of this Stratagem:
‘That unit cannot arrive from Strategic Reserves in the same turn
it is placed into Strategic Reserves.’
I don't mind if Booster Thrust goes. Not even the most OP example of RAW because it costs 2 CP per turn to do. That would be stacking Galvanic Fields. (It's not an aura ability, so you can get two Manipulii to boost a Lucius Ranger unit to 45" S4 AP3.)
Until I see the FAQ though, not going to act on any of the weird, seemingly broken interactions. But if they miss it, then it's fair game as far as I am concerned.
i thought it was a general rule that if a unit is affected by multiple instances of the same rule they dont stack, only if theres different rules that have the same effect?
Do you lose canticles or imperatives if you take different Forge Worlds? I just put in my application to be the next Fabricator General for my Forge World! I am playing Ad Mech instead of Necrons.
If you made a mix it would break them. So you could take a Mars patrol and a Lucius patrol and get the benefits of both specifically to the eligible units
Played against new admech today with my tournament death guard meta list. There was a ton of obscuring terrain on the table.
He got first turn and killed almost 900 points worth of stuff. Deleted Mortarion with ease, then bombed hidden Blightlords with two planes, charged in with teleported robots, and a smattering of other things, and the game was over.
Turn two he cleaned up the rest. The poster above was right, admech has the nastiest alpha strike I've seen in my 10+ years in the hobby. This codex does everything you want and more. Yeeeeeesh. The guy I was playing wasn't even try harding the game. He was just messing around rolling dice, and it obliterated my strongest army in two turns. :O
Vineheart01 wrote: i thought it was a general rule that if a unit is affected by multiple instances of the same rule they dont stack, only if theres different rules that have the same effect?
That rule pertains specifically to Aura abilities, which were more broadly defined in 8E, but in 9E, are explicitly labeled. Galvanic Field has not been labeled an Aura ability.
But I am going to wait until they release their FAQ to use (abuse?) this.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Played against new admech today with my tournament death guard meta list. There was a ton of obscuring terrain on the table.
He got first turn and killed almost 900 points worth of stuff. Deleted Mortarion with ease, then bombed hidden Blightlords with two planes, charged in with teleported robots, and a smattering of other things, and the game was over.
Turn two he cleaned up the rest. The poster above was right, admech has the nastiest alpha strike I've seen in my 10+ years in the hobby. This codex does everything you want and more. Yeeeeeesh. The guy I was playing wasn't even try harding the game. He was just messing around rolling dice, and it obliterated my strongest army in two turns. :O
Ah man, I'm sorry that was a rough game. Death Guard have an awful match-up against AdMech: they're just not durable in the right way. Vanguard in particular are purpose built to kill high toughness units, and overwhelm armor with damage 1 hits. I had a similar match tonight in my local 50PL Crusade league against Nurgle Daemons. Killed his big beautiful Great Unclean One turn 1, then mopped up his army and tabled him on turn 3. I felt so bad for the guy, he only killed 4 infantry models.
There are other armies that can weather the storm and then we run out of gas. I've had really rough games against orks and Harlequins where my early lead doesn't last long enough.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Played against new admech today with my tournament death guard meta list. There was a ton of obscuring terrain on the table.
He got first turn and killed almost 900 points worth of stuff. Deleted Mortarion with ease, then bombed hidden Blightlords with two planes, charged in with teleported robots, and a smattering of other things, and the game was over.
Turn two he cleaned up the rest. The poster above was right, admech has the nastiest alpha strike I've seen in my 10+ years in the hobby. This codex does everything you want and more. Yeeeeeesh. The guy I was playing wasn't even try harding the game. He was just messing around rolling dice, and it obliterated my strongest army in two turns. :O
I also think this has more to do with matchup than anything. AdMech has great answers to everything DG has to offer.
Played my new list into a friends tournament winning tyranids list. (He recently won an RTT)
I went first and he conceded start of his T1. Admech are strong if we go first and get our buffs off
But going second needs more testing. Vanguard and enriched rounds is going to get itself removed. Naughty vanguards flying too close to the sun
Anyone else hate how GW make rules. They release something amazing (probably too strong) the person who plays the army gets excited and uses it. The opponents hate it and resent you.
GW then nerf into oblivion and undo the excitement of a new book. And the opponent still has PTSD and resents you
If only they just tested their game to begin with and didn’t do this
Ideasweasel wrote: Played my new list into a friends tournament winning tyranids list. (He recently won an RTT)
I went first and he conceded start of his T1. Admech are strong if we go first and get our buffs off
But going second needs more testing. Vanguard and enriched rounds is going to get itself removed. Naughty vanguards flying too close to the sun
Anyone else hate how GW make rules. They release something amazing (probably too strong) the person who plays the army gets excited and uses it. The opponents hate it and resent you.
GW then nerf into oblivion and undo the excitement of a new book. And the opponent still has PTSD and resents you
If only they just tested their game to begin with and didn’t do this
Unfortunately this is how the "meta" works in every single game ever, it isn't a problem singular to Games Workshop. It is difficult to create a balance when people go over everything until they find whatever is the screwiest most over powered list and then use it and tell everyone to use it. Then people go and complain that this thing breaks the game. It's up to people playing the game to opt not to be arseholes.
Otherwise the company response will always be "Damn, yep that is overpowered, easy fix is nerf it into nothing". The endless cycle of they are using this list so I need to use an equally screwy list if I want to win just devolves the game into nothingness. Why play if that is the end result every time?
To me, GW's fault lies in actually promoting that kind of play with that "meta-watch" thing. Games shouldn't be balanced because that makes fun play, but the overpowered things need to be difficult to use and require skill and have potential for disaster if used poorly.
Edit: I should point out I have zero interest in tournament style play, just not for me at all. So I have to ask - you set up all your models, you play half of a turn and your mate concedes? What did you do afterwards, did you play a game? That's not me trying to be crappy, I'm genuinely interested.
In 8E, I was matched against my teammate in a tournament. I was playing AdMech. He was playing Deathwatch. Even before the game began, it was pretty clear that I was going to win. He literally could not leave ruins without getting pasted. I just had to sit and wait him out with my Breachers on objectives. So I decided to make it fair and intentionally moved my gunline closer. He managed to make his charges, and I gunned down half of his army in Overwatch. (This was during that period of time where Cawl + Raiment + Cognis Overwatch was cancer.) He DSed and killed my Knight. We ended up playing a really fun and close game. He won by 3 points.
Anyhow, we always should try to bring our best to a competitive event, and we should always take full advantage of the tools we have. But at the end of the day, it's a game where we push toy soldiers around and roll dice. Sometimes, it's fine to not to take winning too seriously.
Both practicing for upcoming events so we both know the script. We would of probably re-racked again but just feel the list just currently counters his army too effectively
Not sure how much we could learn from the encounter.
He’s not salty at all for reference just didn’t really see the point. Usually going for a beer also takes precedence. That as he puts up with a serious amount of my proxies haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: @suzuteo I remember you telling that story. Good sport ☺️ I totally agree
Having fun takes is more important than winning for me too
Cool! That all makes sense. And yeah beer totally takes precedence! Your mate must have more patience than me, if I'd spent all that time putting down nids I'd want them to at least rip apart a few robots for revenge.
Don't get me wrong I totally get the enjoyment for competitive play, I used to play in a couple of local tourneys years back but I went in for the experience, I don't think I was ever going all out to win. I'd certainly want to play well but to me that is different to winning, if that makes sense.
I struggle with the minmaxing/power gaming sort of thing because to me it stifles enjoyment. It forces other people to adopt the same tactics or else you can't hope to succeed. Even if your objective isn't necessarily to win, you at least want a close fun game.
When we used to play WHFB, me and my mate used to play skaven v orcs and gobbos. It was just ludicrous at times. That's the magic of warhammer that I think of so fondly.
I'm keen to play some crusade and try to rekindle that. Not sure if I'll ever play anything competitive though anymore, like I say, zero interest these days.
Yeah I think I’m kinda the stage before that. Our group started fluffy but we have had 3 years of a nuclear arms race that has gotten more and more ruthless.
I can see some of the group getting burned out and missing that initial magic that pulled us in.
If they hadn't increased Ranger and Vanguard squad sizes to 20 they'd still be good with those new tools, but not the overbearing target of ire they're set to become at the moment.
Thats the worst thing, they're good tools, but having a unit that size benefit from it for such a small cp cost is daft. The problem is if they increased them to 2cp for over 10 i'm not sure people would use them. They'd likely stick with groups of 10 anyway to carry on using it for 1cp.
It's certainly a weird balancing point. It's strong at 1CP for 20 members. If you decrease the squad size, then Enriched Ammunition doesn't really do enough. It's still a good stratagem in a vacuum, but it's not impactful enough in play. For 10 Vanguard, against T4/5 Enriched is an extra 6.5 saves, and against T3 it's an extra 5. That's pretty much on par with the 1CP 3 mortal wounds strats that nobody uses. If you bump the CP cost to 2, it's the same effect.
I still think Enriched is strong, but fine as is. 20 Vanguard are extremely fragile to damage, blasts, charges, and morale. They pretty much get one round of shooting before bleeding members. After that, Enriched Rounds stops being efficient enough to use except against T6+ non-vehicles (and there aren't that many of those). It's pretty much on theme with AdMech: it's strong once.
Secondaries: (AdMech) Eradication of Flesh. Engage on all fronts & either Raise Banners or ROD probably. - would you reccomend differently?
Technoarchaeologist - he can allow a unit of core or servitors to perform actions without loosing shooting if needed. the +1S Artisan boost on the rangers. & potentail repairs on the vehicles. he has the Solar Flare because he is the most expendible HQ.
Marshal & Manipulus - boost the rangers mostly for Transhuman (possibly the Ironstriders if needed with Defencive buffs) & ignore AP-1 & -2, 39" (Lucius boost + Manipulus), S5 (with Technoboy) AP-2 D1, 40 shots (80 in 19" for 2CP) rerolling 1's to hit & wound. And a 1+ in cover before doctrinas against D1 weapons.
Breachers, mainly for holding primary objectives & taking out vehicles with arc rifles, Hydraulic claws because who doesn't want thunder hammer armed obsec terminators.
Vanguard - these are split into 3x5 squads - for actions options as well as board control/screening/deep-strike prevention- to cover the backfield etc.
Infiltrators forward deploy - preventing units from counter-deploying too close to my lines, giving space to my shooting units & space for raiders to move up too. turn 1/2 maybe move towards the board edge for CA to go for backfield units etc.
Sterylizor - because 15" flamers (Lucius bonus) out of deep strike is funny, and could be used for scramblers/engage if needed - hopefully booster thrust remains ok after the FAQ
Ironstriders - because Ironstriders
Dragoons - for some melee counter-punch (and the chance for mortals on the charge is useful against phase-locked damage)
Onagers - because of NMNR Eradication of Flesh, and they have a bunch of shooting too. Technoboy would repair these if needed.
I changed my mind on flyers after looking at the rules a bit more, 16 stubber shots and the bombs are not bad for the points, also another vehicle for NMNR.
I do have the option for Autocannons on the Ironstriders, would it be worth it? I have plenty of other Anti-Tank.
Anything else you might change?
Spoiler:
Secondaries it gives up:
12 points for Bring it Down - but this is ALL the vehicles, If I loose these the game is not going in my favor anyways
85 wounds for No Prisoners (i.e. 8 victory points). - again probably will not be taken against the list.
max 10 Victory points for Assassination, but the characters will likely be hidden most of the game either by large squads or behind cover
i.e. there is not a lot of killing secondaries that would work well.
DarkHound wrote: It's certainly a weird balancing point. It's strong at 1CP for 20 members. If you decrease the squad size, then Enriched Ammunition doesn't really do enough. It's still a good stratagem in a vacuum, but it's not impactful enough in play. For 10 Vanguard, against T4/5 Enriched is an extra 6.5 saves, and against T3 it's an extra 5. That's pretty much on par with the 1CP 3 mortal wounds strats that nobody uses. If you bump the CP cost to 2, it's the same effect.
I still think Enriched is strong, but fine as is. 20 Vanguard are extremely fragile to damage, blasts, charges, and morale. They pretty much get one round of shooting before bleeding members. After that, Enriched Rounds stops being efficient enough to use except against T6+ non-vehicles (and there aren't that many of those). It's pretty much on theme with AdMech: it's strong once.
Interesting then in what ways can you make it strong twice?
Over investing screening / sacraficial units to buy another turn of shooting - melee units without focusing or an investment in killing, just delaying?
The short of it is that it's not worth more investment to protect one squad. (Besides Logos from an obligatory Manipulus, if there's nothing better to protect.) Instead you just need to bring more squads and hope one of them is healthy enough for Enriched Rounds. Skitarii are expendable, Vanguard doubly so. Send a wave in, douse the enemy in radiation, and repeat until the field is clear.
DarkHound wrote: It's certainly a weird balancing point. It's strong at 1CP for 20 members. If you decrease the squad size, then Enriched Ammunition doesn't really do enough. It's still a good stratagem in a vacuum, but it's not impactful enough in play. For 10 Vanguard, against T4/5 Enriched is an extra 6.5 saves, and against T3 it's an extra 5. That's pretty much on par with the 1CP 3 mortal wounds strats that nobody uses. If you bump the CP cost to 2, it's the same effect.
I still think Enriched is strong, but fine as is. 20 Vanguard are extremely fragile to damage, blasts, charges, and morale. They pretty much get one round of shooting before bleeding members. After that, Enriched Rounds stops being efficient enough to use except against T6+ non-vehicles (and there aren't that many of those). It's pretty much on theme with AdMech: it's strong once.
The argument then becomes, should we be expected to rely on 1cp strategm efficiency for something to make an impact? We were SO reliant on strategms in 8e to actually compete, we're less reliant now, most of our best stuff for force multipliers is in wlt and relics which is how it should be imo. I still think 1cp to wound any non-vehicle on a 4 with a 90pt unit that puts out 30 shots is worth it if the situation arises but not so good that we rely on it for just taking something out that anti-toughness like auto cannons should be doing. That's the slippery slope here imo, that strategms become a way for any particular unit to just kill anything instead of improving what it already does well. That's how units become outmoded when you can just pay 1cp to make one unit more useful than any that has a specific job.
I think you've got both points backwards. The strategem is the thing that's not efficient unless it's 1 CP, not that the Vanguard are inefficient without it. The Vanguard are anti-infantry shooting first, and also killing monsters is incidental. The buff against <T6 is significant, but not unreasonable. The fact is that T6+ non-vehicles are uncommon, and it's a fluffy interaction, so I'm not sure it's a huge point of balance.
If GW thinks it's a problem, they could do all sorts of stuff, like add a clause that it only works on a 5+ against T6+, but they probably won't. Maybe they'll knock it down to a 5+ generally (which halves the effect the same as reducing squad size or changing CP cost).>
Yeah, that's a good solution too. They could put the exception to Monsters on the stratagem but not the gun. That way you'd still get 6s going through, which would be fluffy and not oppressive. Blasting biologicals with radiation should be effective.
Ok so this may be a rookie question and I think I may know the answer already but am hoping I'm wrong.
In terms of taking a knight, or in my case Armiger Warglaives, is it possible to take knights without either giving up their knightly household rules or losing your canticles and doctrinas?
My understanding is knight of the cog allows one super heavy auxiliary detachment to be taken without nullifying canticles and doctrina and that superheavy auxiliary stops the knights in it from benefitting from knightly households.
Am I missing something here? Is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible to take 3 armiger warglaives and have them benefit from knightly households without losing canticles and doctrinas on my admech? Without households the armiger seem a bit underwhelming...
TheArchmagos wrote: Ok so this may be a rookie question and I think I may know the answer already but am hoping I'm wrong.
In terms of taking a knight, or in my case Armiger Warglaives, is it possible to take knights without either giving up their knightly household rules or losing your canticles and doctrinas?
My understanding is knight of the cog allows one super heavy auxiliary detachment to be taken without nullifying canticles and doctrina and that superheavy auxiliary stops the knights in it from benefitting from knightly households.
Am I missing something here? Is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible to take 3 armiger warglaives and have them benefit from knightly households without losing canticles and doctrinas on my admech? Without households the armiger seem a bit underwhelming...
Unfortunately right now that seems to be the case.
Admech rules for allowing knights w/o breaking things is specifically auxiliary detachments, which deny house rules. So a Super Heavy Detachment would not get Knight of the Cog, breaking canticles/doctrines This MIGHT change when the knight dex drops where the aux detachment doesnt deny it, but i doubt it.
I feel your pain, i liked running a knight + 2 warglaives in the past. Since the cp cost i stopped doing that of course, but all the knights w/o house rules just feel....pathetic right now. I have even LESS urge to paint my other armigers now (the dakka variant, been so long since ive even looked at them i forget their name lol)
I have a question and hopefully this is the right place.
I am preparing for a Crusade campaign. Crusade rules state that I can not select a warlord trait or relic unless I buy the specific requisition. The rules also say I can't use stratagems to upgrade units. Both Artefactorum and Host of the Intermediary state that I give a Skitarii Alpha or Princeps model a relic/warlord trait.
According to the relic requisitions, I can only use the requisition when I add or upgrade a <Character> model to my Order of Battle. I see no further explanation or rules in the Admech codex on additional Crusade rules for those strategems.
Looking at RAW, I am unable to ever use those two strategems to upgrade a Skitarii model with a warlord trait/relic.
Am I interpreting this correctly or am I missing something?
RaptorHunter wrote: I have a question and hopefully this is the right place.
I am preparing for a Crusade campaign. Crusade rules state that I can not select a warlord trait or relic unless I buy the specific requisition. The rules also say I can't use stratagems to upgrade units. Both Artefactorum and Host of the Intermediary state that I give a Skitarii Alpha or Princeps model a relic/warlord trait.
According to the relic requisitions, I can only use the requisition when I add or upgrade a <Character> model to my Order of Battle. I see no further explanation or rules in the Admech codex on additional Crusade rules for those strategems.
Looking at RAW, I am unable to ever use those two strategems to upgrade a Skitarii model with a warlord trait/relic.
Am I interpreting this correctly or am I missing something?
Seems right to me.
But talk to the people you're playing with. Work something out with them.
TheArchmagos wrote: Am I missing something here? Is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too? Is it possible to take 3 armiger warglaives and have them benefit from knightly households without losing canticles and doctrinas on my admech? Without households the armiger seem a bit underwhelming...
There is exactly one way to do it: take a Super-heavy Detachment of House Raven, and an Adeptus Mechanicus detachment of Forgeworld Metalica, and pay 1 CP for each Knight unit to give them Knights of the Iron Cog. Not an ideal situation, I know. Still, it also gives the Knights canticles and I can attest its efficacy; the Knights make much better use of them than most AdMech units.
RaptorHunter wrote: Looking at RAW, I am unable to ever use those two strategems to upgrade a Skitarii model with a warlord trait/relic.
Am I interpreting this correctly or am I missing something?
The rules actually only say "No model in your Order of Battle can have a Relic or a Warlord Trait unless you have purchased the appropriate Requisition." It does not specify that the appropriate requisition is always "Warlord Trait" or "Relic". In this case, "Specialist Reinforcements" activates a stratagem (Artefactorum and Host of the Intermediary) that would give a squad a new ability or upgrade.
I 100% have never played crusade rules. But if it helps at all the only requisition strategem you can us use that doesn't require an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS warlord is Artefactorum
Slim on CP out of the gate (to say the least!), but that is the price to pay for maintaining the House Raven rules and not breaking the AdMech. Not sure if it will do well, honestly, but it looks fun, has a lot of my favorite models, and hopefully won't roll over to anything but like top tier stuff.
VirtualJiva wrote: I 100% have never played crusade rules. But if it helps at all the only requisition strategem you can us use that doesn't require an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS warlord is Artefactorum
The Crusade rules skirt around this with a clause that you can ignore detachment and organization requirements for the requisitions. For example, a stratagem that says 'your Warlord must be AdMech to use this' has to ignore that requirement to work, since you don't have a Warlord while writing your roster.
[1997]Slim on CP out of the gate (to say the least!), but that is the price to pay for maintaining the House Raven rules and not breaking the AdMech. Not sure if it will do well, honestly, but it looks fun, has a lot of my favorite models, and hopefully won't roll over to anything but like top tier stuff.
Feedback is appreciated, folks!
That's kind of similar to my own (of course having the same factions will do that). There's a bunch of small errors, for instance Warglaives are 135 base now, and Neutron Lasers add 5 points to the Dunecrawler since they come with a Stubber. If I'm reading this right, you're taking a Super-heavy Detachment for 6 CP, paying 1 for Exalted Court, and paying 3 for Knights of the Iron Cog, all so that you can keep Firepoint Telemetry Cache on the Marshall? That's 10 CP. Swap those around, make the Knight the Warlord and trade Firepoint for 5 more CP (you can make the Battalion into a Patrol, since the TechnoArch doesn't use an HQ slot). I also really recommend bringing a third or fourth Warglaive to maximize Pack Tactics. You can probably squeeze another in at the expense of a Dunecrawler, just put it in one of the existing Warglaive units to save a CP.
Here's what I run at 2k:
Spoiler:
Total 1996pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, 475 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
That's why I post for more eyes on my lists. I get in this mode where I am hung up on the idea and miss the obvious ways to execute it best. I'm also probably using some older books too because I'm trying to get back into 40k and keeping up with everything after a couple years is a chore... And I'm too stubborn to get the app. (Should I just get the damn app?!)
I like that list you got but I really want to bring the Breachers. I'll tinker some more and see what I can do. It'll look very much like yours I'm sure as we're both heading in the same direction.
For Infiltrators, are taser goads actually preferable to power swords? I know probably everyone has them built with taser goads, but I'm building a unit I've had on sprue for ages, and I wonder.
ph34r wrote: For Infiltrators, are taser goads actually preferable to power swords? I know probably everyone has them built with taser goads, but I'm building a unit I've had on sprue for ages, and I wonder.
Yes, my maths have shown they're overwhelmingly better than swords, and can be buffed further with the exploding 5s stratagem. Any buffs on AP is better on Taser Goads than Power Swords, also.
Here's the maths, it's in French but I think it's understandable:
And then there's the fact that ruststalkers have power swords as well.
Thats why I built my Infils as anti-horde with tasers and ruststalkers as anti-elite with swords. Well, except that the razors were better, but noone cares how long the thing actually is on those spindly hard to discern things from a distance anyway
RaptorHunter wrote: I have a question and hopefully this is the right place.
I am preparing for a Crusade campaign. Crusade rules state that I can not select a warlord trait or relic unless I buy the specific requisition. The rules also say I can't use stratagems to upgrade units. Both Artefactorum and Host of the Intermediary state that I give a Skitarii Alpha or Princeps model a relic/warlord trait.
According to the relic requisitions, I can only use the requisition when I add or upgrade a <Character> model to my Order of Battle. I see no further explanation or rules in the Admech codex on additional Crusade rules for those strategems.
Looking at RAW, I am unable to ever use those two strategems to upgrade a Skitarii model with a warlord trait/relic.
Am I interpreting this correctly or am I missing something?
Seems right to me.
But talk to the people you're playing with. Work something out with them.
yeah we house ruled any unit upgrades can be done using the standard wlt and artifact requisitions. We have one specifically for holy orders so that's covered as well. but RAW you cant use artefactorum or host of the intermediary in crusade, which may get an faq if they feel so inclined, but as it's not matched play you're at liberty to do what you want with your group anyway.
So given that i cant get a marshal atm (thanks GW for shafting local gaming stores...) and my admech collection is mostly infantry-based...
Am i missing something and the marshall ISNT mandatory for the doctrinas? I know hes super crucial to a skiitari heavy list but apparently im not gonna get one for awhile. (Friend said he was gonna get it for me for my bday but because of the delays and GW shafting local games stores on shipments it missed my bday, so im not just ordering one)
My collection kinda doesnt condone non-infantry spamming tactics lol
Spoiler:
3 dominus 1 manip 3 techpriests 1 Dr. D proxy 30 Rangers 30 Vanguard --> in addition, 4 rangers with arc rifles, 4 with transbus, 2 with plasma 4 vanguards with plasma 3 Destroyers/Breachers (magnetized) with 6 more still in a box 10 Electropriests 20 Hoplites 10 Ruststalkers 10 Skystalkers 10 Sterylizers 6 Sulfurhounds 4 Dragoons w/ taser lances 2 Autocannon ironstriders 2 Datasmiths (one was kitbashed to a techpriest) 6 Robots (magnetized fists/shoulder gun) 3 Dunecrawlers (magnetized all guns) 2 Skorpius/Transports (kitbashed to swap between the two) 1 Termite drill
Really feels like the lists i can concoct with this DEMAND a marshal inclusion lol....
The Marshall has very little impact on Doctrinas in practice. I've been playing a couple games a week without him. You play around the Doctrina's negative effect anyway, so ignoring it with a unit or two tends not be crucial. The units that would benefit most from his ignore-malus effect (Sicarrians) don't have data-tethers to access it anyway.
Ideasweasel wrote: I’d argue our troops is probably the strongest of choices just behind las chickens
Bombers and sicarians are also good. Marshall and Manipulus is great
But I’m struggling to see how OP everything is after that. Sisters, Orks, Grey Knights and recently changed Drukhari are all on the horizon
Probably a bit too early to be panicking about admech running away with it
I don''t think Admech are going to run away with it. One key thing it boils down to in the current meta is "Can Admech counter Drukhari?". Drukhari are the accepted top tier army right now. In order to run away with it, Admech has to be able to counter or beat Drukhari well. The question is "Does it?". I mean, Admech is obviously in a strong place right now. You would probably stomp on many other armies. But do you stomp Drukhari?
Let me raise a battle report I just saw on youtube from tabletop tactics. So Lawrence from tabletop tactics took a cut throat list he is planning to take to a GT and played against Stigg's admech list. Now, I would be the first to say that it wasn't a fair matchup. Stigg is clearly not the level of player that Lawrence is, and player skill matters a ton in 9th edition. However, as it stands, if Admech can counter Drukhari well, it shouldn't have been such a one sided match. But it was. By the end of Drukhari turn 2, there was very little admech forces left. The game was literally over by the end of turn 2.
Now, leaving aside the difference in player skill, which was a big factor. Stigg's admech army wasn't utterly bad either. It had 6 ironstriders (whom we all know are super good right now). It had one big blob of max 20 vanguard. It had doggos for running away and move blocking, it had the flying Pteraxii and then it had a whole bunch of other stuff, which was still good. It even had some melee, so its not like it was utterly powerless in close combat. But Lawrence's Drukhari list just demolished him.
So, I am throwing this out here. How does Admech handle Drukhari? Because Drukhari list will have raiders, and lots of cheap but deadly units in them like Incubi and Wyches. So, against Admech.
1) Their raiders are flying, so they are not move blocked by doggos.
2) Turn 1, with enhanced ether sails, its quite possible they can get one raider or venom close enough to charge into and lock out one of your shooty units from close combat. (This is what Lawrence did).
3) Their dark lances can be taken in enough qualities and are deadly enough to put a dent in admech shooting.
4) Even without taking out all of admech shooting, their raiders can still hug terrain cover while moving up the board on turn 1
5) On turn 2, when everything in those raiders advance and charge out of combat. Its lights out if you took a purely shooting army (no matter how many rangers or vanguard you take). You can only buff one vanguard unit, you can't buff all of your troops enough, and lets face it, once vanguard or rangers are locked in melee. They are neutralised. So, its only a matter of time before they die even if they don't die immediately to the million attacks coming from a wych or incubi, or master succubus, etc.
The key problem is that Admech is a primarily shooty army. That's where its strengths lies. Drukhari are the masters of getting the charge in on turn 2. And its just very difficult to prevent Drukhari from getting that game winning mass melee charges in on turn 2.
JNAProductions wrote: How do you charge after using Advanced Aethersails? Doesn't that count as advancing? Because DEldar don't get Advance and Charge till T2.
Lawrence was playing Black Heart. Black Heart treats the power from pain table as one turn higher. So, they get to advance and charge on turn 1 instead of turn 2. Now, granted this is only if you take Black Heart. But Black Heart is a pretty common choice for Drukhari anyway.
JNAProductions wrote: How do you charge after using Advanced Aethersails? Doesn't that count as advancing? Because DEldar don't get Advance and Charge till T2.
Lawrence was playing Black Heart. Black Heart treats the power from pain table as one turn higher. So, they get to advance and charge on turn 1 instead of turn 2. Now, granted this is only if you take Black Heart. But Black Heart is a pretty common choice for Drukhari anyway.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don''t think Admech are going to run away with it. One key thing it boils down to in the current meta is "Can Admech counter Drukhari?". Drukhari are the accepted top tier army right now. In order to run away with it, Admech has to be able to counter or beat Drukhari well. The question is "Does it?". I mean, Admech is obviously in a strong place right now. You would probably stomp on many other armies. But do you stomp Drukhari?
Let me raise a battle report I just saw on youtube from tabletop tactics. So Lawrence from tabletop tactics took a cut throat list he is planning to take to a GT and played against Stigg's admech list. Now, I would be the first to say that it wasn't a fair matchup. Stigg is clearly not the level of player that Lawrence is, and player skill matters a ton in 9th edition. However, as it stands, if Admech can counter Drukhari well, it shouldn't have been such a one sided match. But it was. By the end of Drukhari turn 2, there was very little admech forces left. The game was literally over by the end of turn 2.
Now, leaving aside the difference in player skill, which was a big factor. Stigg's admech army wasn't utterly bad either. It had 6 ironstriders (whom we all know are super good right now). It had one big blob of max 20 vanguard. It had doggos for running away and move blocking, it had the flying Pteraxii and then it had a whole bunch of other stuff, which was still good. It even had some melee, so its not like it was utterly powerless in close combat. But Lawrence's Drukhari list just demolished him.
So, I am throwing this out here. How does Admech handle Drukhari? Because Drukhari list will have raiders, and lots of cheap but deadly units in them like Incubi and Wyches. So, against Admech.
1) Their raiders are flying, so they are not move blocked by doggos.
2) Turn 1, with enhanced ether sails, its quite possible they can get one raider or venom close enough to charge into and lock out one of your shooty units from close combat. (This is what Lawrence did).
3) Their dark lances can be taken in enough qualities and are deadly enough to put a dent in admech shooting.
4) Even without taking out all of admech shooting, their raiders can still hug terrain cover while moving up the board on turn 1
5) On turn 2, when everything in those raiders advance and charge out of combat. Its lights out if you took a purely shooting army (no matter how many rangers or vanguard you take). You can only buff one vanguard unit, you can't buff all of your troops enough, and lets face it, once vanguard or rangers are locked in melee. They are neutralised. So, its only a matter of time before they die even if they don't die immediately to the million attacks coming from a wych or incubi, or master succubus, etc.
The key problem is that Admech is a primarily shooty army. That's where its strengths lies. Drukhari are the masters of getting the charge in on turn 2. And its just very difficult to prevent Drukhari from getting that game winning mass melee charges in on turn 2.
So, how does Admech handle Drukhari?
In a mechanical voice, "I also received word of the loss of our brother The Stig to the Drukhari race. I analyze the battle and there were several mistakes made by the Tech-Priest in command of those forces. I am 87.5% sure that my suggestions would have turned the battle around, The Stig's army had everything he needed to win with a few changes he could have won, if I may have your attention?"
First off he did not use the Serbery's raiders as movement blockers their scout move should have denied the first turn charge. The Serbery's raiders and better deployment would have protected his kataphron units from the first-turn charge. He needed those units to put in work and they did not even get a chance due to bad deployment.
The admech player forgot several stratagems that would have given him a better chance at winning the game. When Drazhar killed a walker (1:09:10 mark) he should have activated machine spirit's revenge stratagem it makes vehicles auto explode. One mortal wound would have killed an incubus from each squad resulting in 6 fewer attacks into the dragoon unit. Secondly, he should have put all attacks into one unit instead of splitting the 4 attacks each (1:15:20 mark). Lastly, he should have placed the marshall in a position where the dragoons could have benefited from his Exemplar's Eternity. He also rolled bad no 5 or 6's out of 8 dice. However with the re-roll, he would have gotten two re-rolls to hit each having a 33% chance of exploding, and with the Marshall nearby they would have almost guaranteed to wound with the re-roll 1's to wound.
During our turn, we activate protector imperative and we kill the enemy in the name of the Omnissiah! First use the desperate breakout stratagem with the dragoons to fall back matter of fact everything falls back. Falling back would leave the incubi, drazhar, and wyches exposed. The Sterylizors could come in and flamed one unit of incubi (should easily kill that unit especially with the Marshall), have the infiltrators come on near the HQ units, and shoot that incubi unit (easily killing that unit especially with the Marshall). Have the dominus in range to give the 5 rangers galvanic field move them up and spend 4 cp on Drazahar. Rapid-fire 2 and 6's to wound causes mortal wounds with re-rolls and ap 2 those 20 shots will kill him. That would have eliminated all of the incubi and drazhar he would have to deal with raiders, wyches, and warriors and the opponent had no cp at that point.
It's a shame he could not get more out of the kataphrons he really needed those guys that is why Spyder targeted them first. Stig did a poor job of keeping units in the range of his HQ units to receive buffs.
I know I shouldn't share my forge world secrets but imagine what would happen to Spyder's 2 or 3 Raiders if a 5 man squad of dragoons come in using the Cartogrammatist stratagem and you activate Invocation of Machine Vengeance? Rolling 3d6 taking away the lowest on the charge, combine that with 5+ exploding taser stratagem and Conqueror Imperative to hit on 2's, how many do you think he can kill?
did not notice the keyword with cartogrammatist cannot do this, however outflanking with the dragoons can accomplish the same thing. That was an epic fail but lets see if this secret is better. 10 Infiltrators Mars doing the same thing except deep striking for free and they have access to a +1 atk/str stratagems and they can use the taser 5+ exploding.First 50 str 3 shots, followed by 31 str 7 exploding on 5+ taser attacks will hurt vehicles.
I know I shouldn't share my forge world secrets but imagine what would happen to Spyder's 2 or 3 Raiders if a 5 man squad of dragoons come in using the Cartogrammatist stratagem and you activate Invocation of Machine Vengeance? Rolling 3d6 taking away the lowest on the charge, combine that with 5+ exploding taser stratagem and Conqueror Imperative to hit on 2's, how many do you think he can kill?
You can't cartogrammatist dragoons, only works on cult mech core, you cant do it to robots either because until they're on the table they don't have core. It's another example of a cult mech ability that pretty much only works on priests :|
There are other ways to pull off the same thing if you don't go Mars (mars is really a false crux now I think) Hell you can just put them in standard reserves tbh, and programmed retreat can be used on dragoons or ballistarii so they can fallback and shoot and charge for free wherever they are on the board if needed. No cp cost, no penalties.
I might watch the report later, but it's so time consuming and ultimately frustrating seeing suboptimal lists and choices as an outsider so I tend to just look at the list and judge from that whether it's worth me watching it lol
I don't think the list was that terrible to be honest. Like I said, it had quite a few of Admech's top tier units, and the rest weren't bad either. Now, again, the difference in player skill was definitely a factor. But let's put it this way, if Admech was so top tier meta good, it should have much less problems against Drukhari who are the top dog right now. But that doesn't quite seem to be the case.
I raised several points why I think Drukhari ultimately have an advantage in a matchup against Admech. Won't repeat them. Scroll up and see what I said.
Cartogram trait to me feels like its a 1cp any forgeworld 'strat' to deepstrike one of the 2 priest units.
Theyre cult, theyre core, they always want to deepstrike.
Which in general i am fine putting that 'warlord trait' on a techpriest. Literally no impact if he dies by losing that 'trait' lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Cartogram trait to me feels like its a 1cp any forgeworld 'strat' to deepstrike one of the 2 priest units.
Theyre cult, theyre core, they always want to deepstrike.
Which in general i am fine putting that 'warlord trait' on a techpriest. Literally no impact if he dies by losing that 'trait' lol
I did not notice that keyword, essentially vineheart is right! Outflanking with the dragoons and using Invocation of Machine Vengeance is still a nasty combo if you are using Mars.
i'm focusing on Ryza just becuase i usually played a half-gunline half-assault admech list anyway. Which is funny because previously that was Lucius, especially with the +1 invul canticle they had previously.
Lucius now to me feels like something my locals wont be able to handle. At all. Theyre pretty bullheaded in changing their tactics around so if something counters what they normally do they almost never adapt. Some because they simply cant, dont have the funds to get more models that quickly. Some are just that dense lol
And yeah, i noticed the priests fit perfectly with that cartogram trait immediately. And i was ecstatic because now i dont need a damn transport to do it in a forgeworld that doesnt have access to such strats. Its only one unit but thats all i got anyway. Or even want to run. Though i admit i might want to get some of the shockgaunt priests now, but i wouldnt wanna run both.
Well...initially i didnt like the idea of putting Skiitari traits on Alphas because you cant really protect them, but i just noticed one that i seriously wanna do now. (what i mean by cant protect them is while the alpha specifically is immune to being sniped, the unit can just be freely shot at)
Programmed Retreat.
Sterylizors already can fall back and charge but they cant shoot, and being loaded with D6 assault flamer shots thats annoying. The Alpha for a measly 1cp allows them to fall back, shoot, and charge. Yeesh lol
Ideasweasel wrote: So I think the world and his dog can see Lucius is the strongest FW Ie what would form the core of a solid Mars list do we reckon
If we look past all the transhuman vanguard trickery that Lucius provides
I’m almost reluctant to play Lucius as it’s just going to be the defacto standard
I just can’t see past it lol
Honestly I can't see past Mars. Partly because having canticles on skitarii makes the game less complex and also because it gives them another way to stay alive in shroudpsalm.
Wrath of mars also just seems incredible for 1cp on practically any unit you would use it on. You can easily max out the 6 mortal wounds on rangers or infiltrators and that's nothing to sniff at.
Also am I wrong to think that wrath of mars on raiders stacks with their innate mortal wounds so that each 6 to wound would do 2 mortal wounds in addition to the regular wound at ap-1? If so then in addition to being a valuable screen I think a unit of 9 is a serious threat to enemy characters from the top of turn 1 if they don't completely hide them away. Seeing as they have a pregame 9'' move, can auto advance 6'' with the dunestriders strat and still shoot with no penalty that's a 45'' threat range. So if you go first I think you can just delete a lot of support characters since even 2 6s would do 4 wounds, then you just fall back if they charge you with the strat.
How many Ironstriders are enough? I feel like two-walker units with lascannon are on the edge of regularly picking up a tank, and three-walker units would guarantee those vehicles going down. I'm just theory-crafting though. What have peoples experiences been with these units?
Ideasweasel wrote: So I think the world and his dog can see Lucius is the strongest FW Ie what would form the core of a solid Mars list do we reckon
If we look past all the transhuman vanguard trickery that Lucius provides
I’m almost reluctant to play Lucius as it’s just going to be the defacto standard
I just can’t see past it lol
Honestly I can't see past Mars. Partly because having canticles on skitarii makes the game less complex and also because it gives them another way to stay alive in shroudpsalm.
Wrath of mars also just seems incredible for 1cp on practically any unit you would use it on. You can easily max out the 6 mortal wounds on rangers or infiltrators and that's nothing to sniff at.
Also am I wrong to think that wrath of mars on raiders stacks with their innate mortal wounds so that each 6 to wound would do 2 mortal wounds in addition to the regular wound at ap-1? If so then in addition to being a valuable screen I think a unit of 9 is a serious threat to enemy characters from the top of turn 1 if they don't completely hide them away. Seeing as they have a pregame 9'' move, can auto advance 6'' with the dunestriders strat and still shoot with no penalty that's a 45'' threat range. So if you go first I think you can just delete a lot of support characters since even 2 6s would do 4 wounds, then you just fall back if they charge you with the strat.
I love Mars and Lucius my list will be a combination and I am using two units of Sereby Raiders in my list. They are not simple move blockers anymore. The problem is our fast attack choices are slammed full of amazing units. Another character sniping unit is Mars Sterylizors, using the Wrath of Mars stratagem. This will require the enemy making an mistake or simply shooting away their protection than flaming them with 6's causing mortal wounds.
DarkHound wrote: The Marshall has very little impact on Doctrinas in practice. I've been playing a couple games a week without him. You play around the Doctrina's negative effect anyway, so ignoring it with a unit or two tends not be crucial. The units that would benefit most from his ignore-malus effect (Sicarrians) don't have data-tethers to access it anyway.
I can't say that I am taking him wholly for the imperative manipulation, I'm taking him for rr1s on hit and wound in a 55 point package.
Vineheart01 wrote: So given that i cant get a marshal atm (thanks GW for shafting local gaming stores...) and my admech collection is mostly infantry-based...
Am i missing something and the marshall ISNT mandatory for the doctrinas? I know hes super crucial to a skiitari heavy list but apparently im not gonna get one for awhile.
(Friend said he was gonna get it for me for my bday but because of the delays and GW shafting local games stores on shipments it missed my bday, so im not just ordering one)
My collection kinda doesnt condone non-infantry spamming tactics lol
Spoiler:
3 dominus
1 manip
3 techpriests
1 Dr. D proxy
30 Rangers
30 Vanguard
--> in addition, 4 rangers with arc rifles, 4 with transbus, 2 with plasma 4 vanguards with plasma
3 Destroyers/Breachers (magnetized) with 6 more still in a box
10 Electropriests
20 Hoplites
10 Ruststalkers
10 Skystalkers
10 Sterylizers
6 Sulfurhounds
4 Dragoons w/ taser lances
2 Autocannon ironstriders
2 Datasmiths (one was kitbashed to a techpriest)
6 Robots (magnetized fists/shoulder gun)
3 Dunecrawlers (magnetized all guns)
2 Skorpius/Transports (kitbashed to swap between the two)
1 Termite drill
Really feels like the lists i can concoct with this DEMAND a marshal inclusion lol....
All the HQs have DOCTRINA ASSEMBLER keywords, so you always have Imperatives as an option. Control Edict doesn't really do that much(it is 1 unit/Marshall with either limited range or additional points upgrade to the desired unit); so unless you also really want the reroll to-wounds of 1 Aura; you can do without him(Don't get me wrong, the aura is great, but you have to choose whether he will be granting t to ranged or melee units, and ranged ones waste his profile/wargear)
As for getting the model: I plan to build one from skitarii bits from my Skorpius + kitbashing. I did this for my daedelosus/technarcheologist already(engineseer + bits)
DarkHound wrote: The Marshall has very little impact on Doctrinas in practice. I've been playing a couple games a week without him. You play around the Doctrina's negative effect anyway, so ignoring it with a unit or two tends not be crucial. The units that would benefit most from his ignore-malus effect (Sicarrians) don't have data-tethers to access it anyway.
I can't say that I am taking him wholly for the imperative manipulation, I'm taking him for rr1s on hit and wound in a 55 point package.
What, besides souping in Knights? If you soup in a non-Knights of the Cog detachment, you'll lose Canticles and Doctrinas, but keep dogmas, holy orders, and stratagems.
So how does that work if I take say 3 crusaders as how raven
Then take a small Metallica patrol. My warlord is a crusader and I want to use the book of rust stratagem to give a knight canticles for the whole game
Would that mean a knight could get canticles but effectively my admech detachment couldn’t?
Man they really f’d up the handling of knights this edition haven't they
What? No. Knights of the Iron Cog includes this clause: (the inclusion of this unit in your army does not prevent ADEPTUS MECHANICUS units in your army from using any rules that require every model in your army to have the ADEPTUS MECHANICUS keyword). You have to give each Crusader the stratagem, but then the entire army counts as pure AdMech the same way Knights of the Cog does.
So guys I'm going to a tournament in September. I haven't had more than 2 games of 9th since release but I've got the whole summer to practice. I'm not going there in with a WAAC mindset and want to play the models I own and I like, so the 4 Kastelan Robots are staying no matter what.
That said I'd like opinions on my draft list. Theory-tactica below.
Cartogrammist to tp Fulgurites, Solar Flare to tp Robots and Datasmith, Sterylizors deep strike. Binharic Override on Robots at the Charge phase for Conqueror Protocol. Use the 3d6-discard-lowest charge Canticle and try and get the charge with all. Robots can reroll charges, Fulgurites have Canticles, and Pteraxii have tactical reroll if needed.
If there's too much screen I delay the Sterylizors one turn and use the Sulphurhounds to kill screens. Then the Sulphurhounds can charge something to apply Irradiation if needed. So if all goes well turn 1 I've got 4 Robots, 10 Sterylizors and 10 Fulgurite engaged in various places.
With Programmed retreat I can engage a unit, and if it wants to disengage I lock it with the stratagem. Come my turn I disengage, shoot them with my 15" flamers and charge another target. The Robots will be a pain to remove and can't be ignored as they can reliably kill a Knight without buffs, and shoot their flamers at point blank. The Fulgurites will try to swarm an objective and deal with the objective holders, they can kill anything provided I roll 6s.
Meanwhile in my backline, I keep the 2x5 Rangers and the Onager on objectives, as well as the Ironstriders. The Onager is fat enough to cover an objective and require either to destroy it or engage it in melee to contest. Ironstriders can do a similar trick. The Dominus will sit there giving rerolls and repairing a bit. The Vanguards will advance behind and secure objectives, screen, perform actions or whatever is needed at the moment.
As for the Manipulus and the Marshal, I'd like to have them up in the field supporting the Pteraxii and other elements, my problem is how to get them there. Just advancing is slow and unreliable. I can get a Dunerider to transport a part of the Vanguards and both HQ maybe ? Also I need to think of what enhancements to give them, an Ordo or a relic to buff the melee units if I can.
I don't have other loadouts for the Ironstriders so can't use more Lascannons or something. I haven't bought yet 5 Fulgurites and the 10 Pteraxii, and could get more Skitarii if I buy the SC with the Dunerider.
Also struggling to chose a Forgeworld. Lucius give me resilience, +3" and Solar Flare (this FW is way too good), but Mars could give me the Canticles for all my force for more reliable charges and buffs. But then I'd lose the deep striking Bots and have to footslog them. Ryza is also a nice contender for +1 to charge and +1 to Wound on charge, which would go very well with the Pteraxii with their cycle charges.
bmsattler wrote: How many Ironstriders are enough? I feel like two-walker units with lascannon are on the edge of regularly picking up a tank, and three-walker units would guarantee those vehicles going down. I'm just theory-crafting though. What have peoples experiences been with these units?
Three kills most vehicles. Two kills lighter vehicles. I bring 2x5 Ballistarii in 3x Lascannon and 2x Autocannon squadrons with Marshal to grant reroll 1s to hit and wound. The first unit tends to spread the damage out. The second one secures the kills.
Aaranis wrote: So guys I'm going to a tournament in September. I haven't had more than 2 games of 9th since release but I've got the whole summer to practice. I'm not going there in with a WAAC mindset and want to play the models I own and I like, so the 4 Kastelan Robots are staying no matter what.
That said I'd like opinions on my draft list. Theory-tactica below.
I think you want at least one 20x unit of Vanguard. They pretty much delete heavy infantry, monsters, and Primarchs; can be used a deep striking bomb in Lucius; and they can turn any objective into a tarpit.
Corpuscarii are more reliable than Fulgurites IMO. You get to shoot with them and then attempt the charge. They do not fight as well as Fulgurites, of course, but the ability to interact in multiple phases is very valuable. However, if you are going to run them as Fulgurites, consider starting them out on the board and using Flare to get them into charge range. They need Logi to stick until they can get a kill for 4++. After that, you don't need to give them Logi anymore. (Downside is that you cannot use the Flare for your Robots, which is a problem.)
Not so sure if it is worth going up to 6x Ballistarii. Lots of nasty Blast weapons out there that will put the hurt on them, and maneuvering them in pairs is difficult.
I would also consider at least one 5x unit of Infiltrators. It helps to establish a bit of a beach head in the midboard. You can also use them to capture objectives and complete secondaries. Definitely MVPs in terms of scoring.
Heading to a post pandemic beerhammer with some buds. Decided to take my pandemic project army, but as I have no play experience, I have no clue if this list is any good. Would love some pointers.
The plan-
Fulgurites and Dominus us Lucius strat to port in. Hopefully Luminescent Beings keeps them around a bit. Artisans seems awesome to allow a charge every turn. (Solar flare would be sweet for T1 charge, but then I'd lose the fight last)
Enginseer hangs back and buffs one or both tanks
Marshal and Manipulus buff vanguards as they move up.
Flyer for debuff strats
Is this any good?
I had another idea of running 2x 11 corpuscarii in twin termites for supreme annoyance. Maybe as Ryza. Lol
Blocking AP stacking effects is a bit of a drastic change, not really something they do for post-release faq/erattas.
Though i do agree that strat is gonna goto 5+ OR become a 2cp. Kinda baffles me that its a 1cp strat more than its effect, since the strat right below it for rangers is nowhere near as lethal but is 2cp for some reason.
CountCyrus wrote: Heading to a post pandemic beerhammer with some buds. Decided to take my pandemic project army, but as I have no play experience, I have no clue if this list is any good. Would love some pointers.
Looks perfectly fine. I could quibble about fine tuning, but it's a fairly strong list.
Xenomancers wrote: Whats the toughts on the upcoming immediate hotfixes? At the very minimum.
No souping forge worlds or lose imperatives.
Stratagems nerfed - 4+ auto wounds goes to 5+.
AP bonues do not stack. Max -1 AP from buffs/stratagems.
I cannot find any rumors and leaks about this. Are you proposing these ideas as a hotfix? I think they're entirely unnecessary.
Vineheart01 wrote: Though i do agree that strat is gonna goto 5+ OR become a 2cp. Kinda baffles me that its a 1cp strat more than its effect, since the strat right below it for rangers is nowhere near as lethal but is 2cp for some reason.
The difference is that the Ranger's strat literally doubles their damage. The Vanguard's strat only doubles their damage in the context of T6+ models (against which they're otherwise ineffective), and provides progressively less benefit against lower toughness enemies.
Vanguard's strat is more than double vs T6, it vastly improves it vs any toughness. High armor is the only thing that radium shots suffer against when compared to galvanics.
Its an autowound on a HIT roll of a 4+, which completely negates the wound roll. Thats even better than making them suddenly S20 since the wound cannot fail. Its literally an every-turn strat, even against T3 things its still significantly improving the total wounding. Unless youre hitting a 2+ save target where the AP1 makes a difference 10 vanguard will cause like 6-8 more wounds than rangers. Big difference though is the vanguard one stays almost the same against any toughness, ranger one tapers off even against T5. Theyre both good i just find it odd that the vanguard one is 1cp when it is clearly better.
Between the two strats, what GW has to contend with is that in practice Rangers have more avenues for buffs which have an cumulative effect.
With their strat, BS2+, re-roll 1s to hit and wound, and an extra AP, the Rangers inflict:
20 wounds to T7 3+
30 wounds to T4 3+
50 wounds to T3 4+
With the same buffs, Vanguard deal:
19.7 wounds to T6+ 3+
22 wounds to T4/5 3+
32 wounds to T3 4+
It may seem like excessive support skews the results, but frankly everyone includes a Manipulus and Marshall with its relic anyway. It's not hard to apply two auras to the Rangers on the turn you plan to spend 2CP. What's more, the strat works on any kind of target: Rangers can vaporize any tanks that stray too close, while Vanguard won't scratch the paint.
That being said, I do think the Ranger strat should be 1/2 for 5+ PL. Two CP to double a 10 man squad's output is extremely steep.
Aaranis wrote: So guys I'm going to a tournament in September. I haven't had more than 2 games of 9th since release but I've got the whole summer to practice. I'm not going there in with a WAAC mindset and want to play the models I own and I like, so the 4 Kastelan Robots are staying no matter what.
That said I'd like opinions on my draft list. Theory-tactica below.
I think you want at least one 20x unit of Vanguard. They pretty much delete heavy infantry, monsters, and Primarchs; can be used a deep striking bomb in Lucius; and they can turn any objective into a tarpit.
Corpuscarii are more reliable than Fulgurites IMO. You get to shoot with them and then attempt the charge. They do not fight as well as Fulgurites, of course, but the ability to interact in multiple phases is very valuable. However, if you are going to run them as Fulgurites, consider starting them out on the board and using Flare to get them into charge range. They need Logi to stick until they can get a kill for 4++. After that, you don't need to give them Logi anymore. (Downside is that you cannot use the Flare for your Robots, which is a problem.)
Not so sure if it is worth going up to 6x Ballistarii. Lots of nasty Blast weapons out there that will put the hurt on them, and maneuvering them in pairs is difficult.
I would also consider at least one 5x unit of Infiltrators. It helps to establish a bit of a beach head in the midboard. You can also use them to capture objectives and complete secondaries. Definitely MVPs in terms of scoring.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm holding my breath on Vanguards as I'm sure they'll get their strat changed before the tournament. If they don't, I'm totally including a unit and will deep strike them. Can we deep strike T1 now ?
I won't use Corpuscarii, I don't have any and own 5 Fulgurites so it'll complete my existing squad. I also like the mortal wounds output, great for those invulnerable saves. But you're right that Corpuscarii are easier to play with and have a great damage output.
Blast weapons on units of 6 is usually the average roll anyway, but yeah, if playing 5 can allow for some 1s and 2s to be rolled that's great. Also easier to move around the board. Also one Ironstrider fewer I have to paint.
Infiltrators are fine to include, they're great in 9th. I'll put some if I can. What's your thoughts on the Pteraxii ?
I’m loathe to try them until after the faq. Just to see what is intended. I don’t have much experience with them to be honest other than a couple of test games on TTS.
In real life I’ve been having lots of fun with infiltrators. They provide a bit of an overlap. Some contrast sure but I’ve been getting by using infiltrators instead
I feel like there's not much they can do to nerf us at this point, not without rewriting a large chunk of our codex. If Enriched Rounds gets nerfed, then we will just use Rangers.
two changes I'd like to see:
Enriched Rounds and Volly Fire go to 1CP for x PL, 2 CP for y PL.
Makes it more well rounded in one case and a slight nerf on the other.
I somehow really feel that Kastelans need to remain core if their Datasmith performs an action... removing the AURA from the ability would already suffice.
Wrote a list for fun with an Irradiated Forge-World. It could be quite effective, I'd definitely try this if I had the models.
Spoiler:
Batallion: Irradiated Forge-World
- Primary trait: If a Base unit is shot at from more than 12", the shot has -1S
- Secondary trait: +1S & +1AP on Radium weapons
Every Vanguard squad is inside a Skorpius, the Manipulus and the Marshal are embarked in separate transports as well. Infiltrators start hidden mid-field if they can. The Dominus camps behind with the Ironstriders, and the Fulgurites come on round 2 when the screens have been cleared. I could give Multitasking Cortex or something to the Marshal to keep a maximum of firepower.
Math-wise, we're looking at 162 S4, AP-1 Radium shots, 10 Arc shots, 72 S4 AP0 shots, 10 Lascannon shots, 50 S3 AP0 shots, + the charges from the Infiltrators and the Fulgurites. Could be a nice list, flooding the board with Vanguards that have essentially irradiated Bolt Rifles.
I wanted to check with folks to make sure I wasn't just missing something. Did the Cognis weapons lose their overwatch at full BS benefits when we moved to the new codex?
Thairne wrote: So we're gonna get a Skitarii Veteran Cohort.
....
oh noes I might not be able to use cult mechanicus units whatever will I doooooooooooooooooooo...
Oh. Yes. I remember.
Hopefully it's more interesting than making them BS2 like the DE ones.
My vote would go to:
Vanguard: auto wound on 5+ to hit but without the vehicle caveat.
Rangers: Full pre-game normal move. or give them back the ignoring of look out sir and sniper rules like raiders.
I could see both of them being limited to one squad and 10 per unit as well, just because they'd be WAY too powerful. They're already amazing without adding more to them. Unless they have a penalty somewhere worked into it.
You guys are forgetting something.
If it follows the pattern of the MDC, you will not have access to a manipulus. No range and AP increase.
You will not get access to a dogma. So no canticles or +1sv. To be even remotely useful it will have top top Mars and Lucius by a considerable margin.
Yeah whatever it's going to be forbidden in Matched Play 5 seconds later anyway. And I'm not happy if they boost Skitarii so much that everyone will call nerf on them and we'll lose every fun thing we have in punishment.
Aaranis wrote: Yeah whatever it's going to be forbidden in Matched Play 5 seconds later anyway. And I'm not happy if they boost Skitarii so much that everyone will call nerf on them and we'll lose every fun thing we have in punishment.
We already lost most of the really fun things to begin with. Squadroned Onagers, multi-weapon squads, etc.
*glares at the Cult Mechanicus players who couldn't figure out how to run their own army pre-8E*
I am not sure if it will be hit with the nerf bat because, in a lot of the battle reports I have seen, people just don't know what to do with the canticles and imperatives. Sure, the plus one bs one is obvious but after that most players are lost. What I am getting at is that this army is not as easy to pilot as Dark Eldar. Even if a tournament player comes along with a great list it will be hard to duplicate his result because of all the choices you have with canticles and imperatives. The codex is strong but it is not I buy x and I win so I doubt it will be nerfed as I originally thought.
Frankly, it needs an unnerf NOW with regards to the special weapons language.
The more time I've had to go over it, the more time I've had to realize that whoever wrote it has zero idea how to actually present something in a meaningful way(Bullet points/listing matter when writing out ranked choice lists, dangit!) and basically was told to make it so that taking plasma couldn't be done easily in 10 model units.
The MDC was just a single detachment, so this is likely to be the same. But it'll be the same Forgeworld so I dont see how a manipulus in a regular lucius detachments galvanic field wouldn't work on whatever special detachment this is. Sure they lose dogmas and canticles, thats not a big deal if they're buffed anyway. if they both get BS2 + something flavourful then we dont really need dogmas for them because they only benefit from 2 of them anyway and we can always Transhuman and logi them still.
The MDC didnt forbid you from having SKITARII in the detachment - it forbid you from having SKITARII in your ARMY.
So it is fair to assume you will be locked out of CULT MECHANICUS for your army in this detachment.
Vineheart01 wrote: Blocking AP stacking effects is a bit of a drastic change, not really something they do for post-release faq/erattas.
Though i do agree that strat is gonna goto 5+ OR become a 2cp. Kinda baffles me that its a 1cp strat more than its effect, since the strat right below it for rangers is nowhere near as lethal but is 2cp for some reason.
It's not even about the CP. There are situations where You would spend your entire CP bank of 9/12 to use it. Because it can literally 1 shot Magnus or Belekor. A push to 2 CP would make absolutely no difference. You'd still see the exact same list popping up. It is a big problem - insofar as these units are essentially unplayable due to the stratagems existence. Really any big infantry brick other than admech infantry became unplayable. When it comes to facing multimelta on your tanks or having 2 infantry units a turn auto deleted from 2 1 cp stratagems - people will chose to face the melta on their tanks every day. Meltas roll few enough dice they will fail to kill your tank sometimes.
AP stacking restrictions is and has already been a thing. Space marine doctrines do not stack with other stratagems that give you more bonus AP. I can't think of any other situations because getting stacking of negative AP is actually pretty rare - necrons get get a -2 on mephrite with their dynasty trait and a command protocol - I'd be more than happy to see that go away it really doesn't matter much going from ap-3 to ap-4 but going from 0 to -2 is huge. The reason it is an issue is because of the exponential potential with other buffs and stratagems. I think modifier maxes are a really good idea. It really fixed the - to hit nonsense that eldar were famous for - it can fix these issues now.
Vineheart01 wrote: Blocking AP stacking effects is a bit of a drastic change, not really something they do for post-release faq/erattas.
Though i do agree that strat is gonna goto 5+ OR become a 2cp. Kinda baffles me that its a 1cp strat more than its effect, since the strat right below it for rangers is nowhere near as lethal but is 2cp for some reason.
It's not even about the CP. There are situations where You would spend your entire CP bank of 9/12 to use it. Because it can literally 1 shot Magnus or Belekor. A push to 2 CP would make absolutely no difference. You'd still see the exact same list popping up. It is a big problem - insofar as these units are essentially unplayable due to the stratagems existence. Really any big infantry brick other than admech infantry became unplayable. When it comes to facing multimelta on your tanks or having 2 infantry units a turn auto deleted from 2 1 cp stratagems - people will chose to face the melta on their tanks every day. Meltas roll few enough dice they will fail to kill your tank sometimes.
AP stacking restrictions is and has already been a thing. Space marine doctrines do not stack with other stratagems that give you more bonus AP. I can't think of any other situations because getting stacking of negative AP is actually pretty rare - necrons get get a -2 on mephrite with their dynasty trait and a command protocol - I'd be more than happy to see that go away it really doesn't matter much going from ap-3 to ap-4 but going from 0 to -2 is huge. The reason it is an issue is because of the exponential potential with other buffs and stratagems. I think modifier maxes are a really good idea. It really fixed the - to hit nonsense that eldar were famous for - it can fix these issues now.
Every 9th edition codex has 2-3 really powerful stratagems. Transhuman physiology cuts the damage output of units like Magnus and Mortarion in half. Deathguard pox walkers dish out mortal wounds. As far as rules that rival canticles and imperatives Deathshroud with Putrifiers buff and Arch-contaminator literally can dish out 10+ mortal wounds easily. Succubus doing Succubus things. Permanent Transhuman on Dark Angel Objective Secured Terminators. When it comes to damage output or defensive traits there are things that match or beat the 2 stratagems that make the skitarii troop choices viable.
As a Necron Player if you were to complain about how easy the canticles and imperatives work that is one thing as our version sucks. We Necron Players have disintegration capacitors which does the exact same thing except on 6's with weapons that have ap 2 or better naturally. 20 Warriors with buffs regardless if the unit is transhuman or not is still killing a lot of Skitarii, maybe not the entire squad but enough to fail the morale save on anything but a one. Once Lychguard gets into the fray the troop choices are going to be dead. You know which unit is receiving the durability buffs just shoot something else or charge it.
At the end of the day, the skitarii troop choices are like all the other 9th edition codexes troop choices. With buffs and stratagems, they can do some nasty stuff. WIthout the buffs and stratagems do you think a Lucius Skitarii troop choice is better than a Valorous Heart battle sister?
I would be shocked if AP stacking is allowed, that's silly and goes against the establish set of rules that are similar in nature.
Any love for the Terrax Pattern Termite at the moment? Still seems fairly solid at 180 points, particularly as it has the Skitarii keyword and Doctrina Imperatives (how long that will last is anyone’s guess). My thoughts are it helps save a Warlord Trait when using Priests, or can save a CP for Ruststalkers by not needing Circuitous Assassins for one turn to get them into position and is a good fit for deepstriking in turn 2 when we’ve probably got Protector Doctrina active (and likely Benediction or Invocation in Mars lists). The Melta cutter is a pretty nasty weapon to drop on the board and free heavy flamers are a nice addition as well.
While I’m still lacking some of the newer units like Archaeopters and Serberys cavalry I think I might use one or two. The Skorpius tanks I was using last edition don’t seem nearly so useful now and are actually looking pretty lacklustre this edition. This has left me with a big points gap to fill in my 2000 points lists. Seems like it would be a decent fit for Mars particularly.
I've been debating adding the drill back into my list, I need a LOT more games to playtest thing first however. Personally I think it's currently a little underrated.
The transport aspect is just a nice bonus IMO. If you're playing mars having 5 meltas that deepstrike hitting on 2+ with 2rr it could be a devastating, then there is always potential for a nasty charge and shooting again next turn should you survive. 180pts for a great distraction carnifex isn't too bad.
Like I said, I need to play a lot more 9th before I settle on an opinion.
My current thinking is unless whatever you're putting in that transport doesn't need command abilities or doesn't need them the turn it arrives then transports aren't worth it.
If you can get by with auras and strategms in the turn you arrive then they could work, but the majority of our power now comes from those command abilities + strategms, so you miss out on a lot of it using a transport.
xlDuke wrote: Any love for the Terrax Pattern Termite at the moment? Still seems fairly solid at 180 points, particularly as it has the Skitarii keyword and Doctrina Imperatives (how long that will last is anyone’s guess). My thoughts are it helps save a Warlord Trait when using Priests, or can save a CP for Ruststalkers by not needing Circuitous Assassins for one turn to get them into position and is a good fit for deepstriking in turn 2 when we’ve probably got Protector Doctrina active (and likely Benediction or Invocation in Mars lists). The Melta cutter is a pretty nasty weapon to drop on the board and free heavy flamers are a nice addition as well.
While I’m still lacking some of the newer units like Archaeopters and Serberys cavalry I think I might use one or two. The Skorpius tanks I was using last edition don’t seem nearly so useful now and are actually looking pretty lacklustre this edition. This has left me with a big points gap to fill in my 2000 points lists. Seems like it would be a decent fit for Mars particularly.
Hi. I usually judge a unit by how upset my opponent is to see it, and so far my terrax drill has been met with a bit of disdain, which is excellent.
I've only used it twice with the new codex, bit delivering Fulgarites in it with a buffing character giving rerolls to hit in combat, its proven useful. The shooting hasn't been quite what I wanted, but the close combat threat had really solidified a flank both times.
I think my biggest thoughts on this, are Pteraxii still viable as 1 turn only units: a squad of 5 drop in from reserves turn 2/3 score you ROD and Engage points then probably die. if they survive a turn booster thrust away and drop in again in another quarter for the same?
for ROD I'd prefer infiltrators. They're cheaper.
Sterylizors are imo better at taking backfield objectives from T3 troops and forcing a response since they're better at shooting, which makes them a more reliable threat to clear of 5 man from an obj.
All in all, a good FAQ. The cheese got nerfed, they acknowledged the problematic wording of Wrath of Mars, and they cleaned up some redundancies and omissions. Only stain is the unnecessary nerf to Secutarii.
well, now im even less inclined to use hoplites.
Kinda felt like they were moderate quality compared to the new shinies. But now that i cant put them in a dunerider....yeesh...
There seems to be a very clear "FW models only work with other FW models and dont get all the toys" kinda philosophy. Which I can understand because the codexes are likely not written with them in mind. So it limits the abuse-holes and weird interactions.
It's funny because every man and their dog was shunning duneriders for drills not too long ago, now they're less desireable for anything other than priests FW or no and people are considering taking drills as a tank! lol
I thought it was a pretty good FAQ. All the things we all knew (deep down inside for some) were going to be toned/adjusted/clarified/fixed were included and nothing was unduly broken that isn't key or core to the army.
I can only assume that we'll get a balance patch later with a CA to adjust things like enriched rounds once they have more data to work with.
Edit: still think Kataphrons should have been given core, or corpuscarii become troops or....something to make a cult mech force more viable. I mean it's not for me, the skitarii side is way more interesting at the moment, but cult mech did get royally shafted.
Skinnereal wrote: OK, I'm lost. Where is 'Biker' defined?
Is the benefit mentioned here just because they are not 'Infantry'?
BIKER isnt really defined, its just another keyword like INFANTRY, VEHICLE, IMPERIUM, XENOS, or HERATIC ASTARTES.
the benefit is the "-1 to shoot if you move" rule for heavy weapons is keyed off the INFANTY keyword, so if do not have that (by being a VEHICLE or BIKER, for example), you dont suffer it.
Skinnereal wrote: OK, ... Where is 'Biker' defined?
Is the benefit mentioned here just because they are not 'Infantry'?
BIKER isnt really defined, its just another keyword like INFANTRY, VEHICLE, IMPERIUM, XENOS, or HERATIC ASTARTES.
the benefit is the "-1 to shoot if you move" rule for heavy weapons is keyed off the INFANTY keyword, so if do not have that (by being a VEHICLE or BIKER, for example), you dont suffer it.
That's what I thought, thanks. It is the way people are stating "Biker" as a fix for everything, but not explaining why.
Skinnereal wrote: OK, ... Where is 'Biker' defined?
Is the benefit mentioned here just because they are not 'Infantry'?
BIKER isnt really defined, its just another keyword like INFANTRY, VEHICLE, IMPERIUM, XENOS, or HERATIC ASTARTES.
the benefit is the "-1 to shoot if you move" rule for heavy weapons is keyed off the INFANTY keyword, so if do not have that (by being a VEHICLE or BIKER, for example), you dont suffer it.
That's what I thought, thanks. It is the way people are stating "Biker" as a fix for everything, but not explaining why.
Yhea, I've found myself making these sort of straight explanations a lot recently on several platforms, it seems be out of fashion these days to just answer the damm question without snark....
Sorry, grognard rant over. I've just been too many times in the boat of asking a question, getting snarky answers and having to re ask several times before I get a clear answer. Like, when did passing on knowledge become passe?
That seems optimistic. The first Drukari FAQ was just to fix the really broken unintended stuff. After a month or two they came back and updated points costs and some of the other stuff to soften some of the hard edges for the codex. I would expect to see something similar for the AdMech book. At a minimum, I think the Balistarii are under costed.
If it feels like it's going to be adjusted, it probably will be.
For example, I'm expecting a similar points increase on Baslistarii the same as DE Raiders got. If they did it to Raiders to curb the spam of medium toughness anti-tank spam, surely we should expect that for Ballistarii?
Maybe 10pts on a las chicken to 85? Autocannon ones maybe 5pts to 70? They do certainly feel incredibly cheap for what they bring in all aspects of the game.
I'm not sure dragoons need that increase though so hopefully they don't get blanket adjusted.
Just pick something that works, is fun to play and go for it. A points adjustment won't change how good something is, just how many of them you can field. I dont think there are any rules that are obviously broken now though, but Lucius does feel unfeasibly strong overall, it may get an adjustment. It's too much work to bring the other FW up to the same standard.
You're never safe from an impromptu adjustment lol
Edit: Looking quickly at one or two others its not uncommon to see points costs adjustments in an FAQ. Necron nightbringer and reanimators were adjusted up and down in points respectively.
One potential saving grace for us is that although Balistarii are amazing and cheap and a lot of people are taking them in larger numbers. it's not the only way for us to win. A recent GT admech winner only took 3 of them for example.
At least that combo requires resources but the vanguard one where a 1 point stratagem allows 60 
I will stop with the troop choices because it only gets stronger the more you dive into the codex.
