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Oh I didn't accuse you of tailoring.
I wasn't intending to accuse you of anything.
Its just that Tyranids are in a pretty bad position right now and bringing a very strong admech list against a struggling army is almost guaranteed for him to have a bad time.
But after a 6/6 he probably can stomach the steamroll, thats fair

He’s a good sport for sure.

I quite like his nids list. It’s got all the usual suspects in there lots of bodies, dimas, hive guard flyant etc

But yes the codex creep is very real. He hopes to get a book sometime in the next 2 years haha

Well gotta say the new codex gives a lot of interesting choice for metalica, especially combined with the new Charadon book. Just wish I could actually get a codex to read.

For those folks who can actually play, have you found it worthwhile to bring raven knights with Metalica or are they not worth it? Torn between an auxilary iron cog detachment with a magaera or 3 warglaive. Both seem solid, but the 4cp investment to get them not so much. This codex eats CP at an alarming rate before you even hit the table, so Im trying to avoid running extra bits I dont need.

Other than that, Im struggling to find a character that I like with the iron lung and perhaps radioactive emanations. About the only thing that makes sense is a Manipulus, but he doesnt give the movement buff anymore so Im not quite as tempted to run him up. A dominus is the other option, but hes not exactly tough in melee either.

That said, I really like everything I see so far and honestly my biggest complaint is figuring out what on earth Im going to run due to all these options. The onager and kastelans seem a bit underwhelming too but Im sure Ill figure something out

So I'm between a rock and a hard place of Vanguard vs Rangers and I'll tell you for why.

I'm looking at taking 2 blobs of 20 with support (Marshall w/Raiment & BSU, Dominus w/Logi Initial & Manipulus w/Magi Advance)

The additional shot on the carbine is great, the auto wound is wonderful (partnering with Magi advance for a further wound roll) however the lower range makes camping a bit less enticing - Obviously mitigated by the Manipulus Galvanic Field - However the lower strength with weight of attacks meaning a 4 doesn't wound 4T and gives us a -1 with the Manipulus.

one less attack on the rangers obviously cuts their damage output by a third (more so with the Magi additional damage) - Now against 4T though, the damaging on 4's is pretty big as well as wounding T7 on 5's instead of 6's. Stacking to give -2 AP is also lubbly

The additional range on the rangers is great, camping a position with effective 36" range is pretty nifty.

Coupling with this I'm unsure even what forge world to take... The whole tentative list is in the spoiler tags, I'm also undecided on which dogs to take. Give a brother some advice

If you are sold on those models Mars or Lucius jumps out to me

 Ideasweasel wrote:
If you are sold on those models Mars or Lucius jumps out to me

I couldn't imagine what else I'd want to take at this point in time? It seems like it does a job - Only things in question would be electropriests but I really like them. So those are the two I'm mainly debating between - Solar Blessing seems absolutely bonquers to me but there is this classic Mars thing which sits in the back of your head.

tigerstyle wrote:
So I'm between a rock and a hard place of Vanguard vs Rangers and I'll tell you for why.

Spoiler:

I'm looking at taking 2 blobs of 20 with support (Marshall w/Raiment & BSU, Dominus w/Logi Initial & Manipulus w/Magi Advance)

The additional shot on the carbine is great, the auto wound is wonderful (partnering with Magi advance for a further wound roll) however the lower range makes camping a bit less enticing - Obviously mitigated by the Manipulus Galvanic Field - However the lower strength with weight of attacks meaning a 4 doesn't wound 4T and gives us a -1 with the Manipulus.

one less attack on the rangers obviously cuts their damage output by a third (more so with the Magi additional damage) - Now against 4T though, the damaging on 4's is pretty big as well as wounding T7 on 5's instead of 6's. Stacking to give -2 AP is also lubbly

The additional range on the rangers is great, camping a position with effective 36" range is pretty nifty.

Coupling with this I'm unsure even what forge world to take... The whole tentative list is in the spoiler tags, I'm also undecided on which dogs to take. Give a brother some advice.

Aren't you over buffing 8point models?

Some simple power sword wielding CC dudes will mulch Skitarri troops.

30" is a giant threat range now boards are smaller and being able to move into the middle of the board, means the +6" is kind of wasted on rangers.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Personally I think 3 big squads is the magic number when you consider = 1) to hold the vanguard strategem, 2) Holds the ranger strategem (either Wrath and/or Volley Fire) & 3) Holds the buffs. And fully buffed Vanguard seem lovely!

The ideal feels to be 1-2xVanguard in a rad-saturated patrol (Manipulus & maybe Marshall) & 1x Ranger in a Mars whatever detachment..having a reliable way to triggering a full Wrath of Mars seems golden.

Razerous wrote:
Some simple power sword wielding CC dudes will mulch Skitarri troops.

with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn, that means the power swords wound on a 4+ at best and they still get a 5+ which is better than their native 6++ being able to autotank 1/2 of all wound and them make 1/3 of all saves, even if they hit you with 40 attacks and hit every single one, only 20 wound and you save 6-7, not amazing, but off the top of my head I don't know a unit that can deal 40 power sword attacks in a single turn.

It's just a thought, I played my first game with new codex (1000pts) and was shocked how durable skitarii are now.

Hey guys, the other day I hosted my first live stream with two awesome guests who are top end players within the Admech community and we had a fantastic discussion about the new Codex and where it stands as well as what people can expect from it.

The complexity of the codex is through the roof and it has enough depth that we'll be discovering things for a long time to come but I thought you might enjoy listening to it as well. Something I found very interesting is the increase in people mixing Skitarii and Kataphrons in lists now, as it occurred in the past but was rather rare, and now it appears to be trending towards a common feature.

 laam999 wrote:

with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn.

200 points of lightning claw BA vets? No CP usage. Kills 11 in assault doctrine.

Razerous wrote:

 laam999 wrote:

with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn.

200 points of lightning claw BA vets? No CP usage. Kills 11 in assault doctrine.

I get they're not immortal, but trading 88pts of models to tie up 200pts of models seems like it could be a good trade, especially if you have something to shoot them off the board with if you fall back next turn (which it seems AdMech now have in abundance).

There is so much in the codex the more I read and theory craft the more unique and nasty lists I see. I didn't get round to using everything in the 8th codex and I played a lot, I think there will be a lot in 9th I never get to try.

 laam999 wrote:

Razerous wrote:

 laam999 wrote:

with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn.

200 points of lightning claw BA vets? No CP usage. Kills 11 in assault doctrine.

I get they're not immortal, but trading 88pts of models to tie up 200pts of models seems like it could be a good trade, especially if you have something to shoot them off the board with if you fall back next turn (which it seems AdMech now have in abundance).

There is so much in the codex the more I read and theory craft the more unique and nasty lists I see. I didn't get round to using everything in the 8th codex and I played a lot, I think there will be a lot in 9th I never get to try.

What I'm saying is the 200pts of melee can still trade with 200pts of AdMech. You'll likely lose most of the squad and HQ after morale and any other synergies the BA player may have.

The point being, don't over-buff skitarri toops.. they are already incredible. When I say overbuff, a single squad with strategems, two HQ's, doctrinas / canticles.. sure possible but overkill.

Razerous wrote:

 laam999 wrote:

Razerous wrote:

 laam999 wrote:

with Lucius however they can be comfortably buffed to a 2+ save along with transhuman each turn.

200 points of lightning claw BA vets? No CP usage. Kills 11 in assault doctrine.

I get they're not immortal, but trading 88pts of models to tie up 200pts of models seems like it could be a good trade, especially if you have something to shoot them off the board with if you fall back next turn (which it seems AdMech now have in abundance).

There is so much in the codex the more I read and theory craft the more unique and nasty lists I see. I didn't get round to using everything in the 8th codex and I played a lot, I think there will be a lot in 9th I never get to try.

What I'm saying is the 200pts of melee can still trade with 200pts of AdMech. You'll likely lose most of the squad and HQ after morale and any other synergies the BA player may have.

The point being, don't over-buff skitarri toops.. they are already incredible. When I say overbuff, a single squad with strategems, two HQ's, doctrinas / canticles.. sure possible but overkill.

That's a fair way to look I'd say.

Played my friend's Salamanders list. The usual suspects: 2x5 Assault Intercessors in Impulsors, an Incursor squad, a Bladeguard Veteran Squad, 3x5 Aggressors, and outflanking 2x5 Eradicators.

My list:

Secondaries were Banners, Eradication, and Sequencing.

I won pretty handily, but I did not take notes or anything because it was a new codex, and I had to spend a lot of time explaining things; he wanted to know what AdMech could do just as much as I did. So this data is mostly just what I can remember. I think the big takeaway is that Lucius is just able to totally dominate the midboard right away, and there was no good way for him to take it back with one giant blob of nearly unkillable infantry parked there or another. Once his Bladeguard went down on turn two, that was pretty much it.

Lessons:

1. 2x5 Infiltrators might be better than a unit of 10x. I got to deploy first, and I put them right on top of the center objective. They were all killed via shooting without doing a thing on turn 1; he went first. But they did their job and left plenty of room to Solar Flare and then Deep Strike.

2. Vanguard are ridiculously strong. A unit of 20 Vanguard killed 4 Aggressors through their Unyielding stratagem with Enriched Rounds on turn one. And with Logi, Transhuman, and Solar Blessing, he pretty much did not even bother shooting at them turn one; they were forced to on turn two, and with the Bladeguard, they killed all but 5 of them, but that was pretty much the turn. And that leads me to my next point.

3. Without buffs, your infantry die very, very fast. I mean, these are Salamanders, but holy crap did I have to scoop up lots of my dudes. Deep striking is also not as great for squishy units because they don't get any of the Command Phase bonuses. I used Protector Doctrina on turn 1, mostly because he didn't really have the range to threaten me until turn 2, when I used my Bulwark. I cleared two Aggressor units on my turn 1 because they moved out of cover to shoot my Infiltrators. And my Corpuscarii and Vanguard managed to paste the Bladeguard Veteran Squad on turn 2. But then the Corpuscarii were wiped out in response; my second Vanguard unit fared better, but mostly because his attention was on making sure those Corpuscarii did not survive to see another turn. I began buffing the Vanguard on turn 2 after that.

4. Lucius probably cannot make good use of Dragoons. Might be the deployment, but the army balled up on objectives, which made moving these units up to the frontline a bit challenging. They did eventually get stuck in against some Eradicators, but the game was well in hand by then. If they were Ballistarii, they would have been able to contribute more on turn 1; the Ballistarii were just hammering him all game, and there was not much he could do about it; he had to fight for objectives.

5. Infoslave Skull makes it pretty hard for Eradicators to outflank against the Ballistarii; I cannot believe the restriction is AdMech Core and not AdMech Infantry. This makes it pretty easily screen them out entirely; they come within 12" of the Ballistarii, they get deleted. Having 2x5 Ballistarii would expand this net even wider. They eventually did come in and shoot the Dragoons, but the dice were cold, so my Dragoons, Raiders, and Vanguard just overwhelmed them.

6. Lucius is all about the objectives game now. Multitasking Cortex feels mandatory for Banners flexibility; Raiders, Vanguard, and Ironstriders all benefit. And Acquisition is the most powerful stratagem in AdMech right now. It's pretty much 1 CP to keep a banner up.

7. In terms of secondaries, Uncharted Sequencing and Engagement are both bit trickier than I'd thought with this list, but that probably is something that can improve over time with more practice. Also considering WWSWF with the Ballistarii units and a unit of Breachers or something. Might mean I have to break up the Corpuscarii bomb though.

Are you not tempted to Solar flare the dragoons to use them as a distraction carnifex?

 laam999 wrote:
Are you not tempted to Solar flare the dragoons to use them as a distraction carnifex?

They don't really have an immediate impact unless they make the 9" charge, so not really. If I had Solar Flared them, they would just be standing there waiting to be charged.

 Suzuteo wrote:
1. 2x5 Infiltrators might be better than a unit of 10x. I got to deploy first, and I put them right on top of the center objective. They were all killed via shooting without doing a thing on turn 1; he went first. But they did their job and left plenty of room to Solar Flare and then Deep Strike.

Yup, I felt that too running 1x8 (points limit prevented 10). That's why I was suspicious of all this Temporcopia non-sense: in practice the Infiltrators are not shock troops, they're board control. They score objectives and complete actions, because if you deploy a giant block of them up close, your opponent is going to delete them. Honestly, I think deploying them too far ahead isn't always warranted either, and the utility of their Infiltration can just be that they deploy last so you have full information. You can always take advantage of Circuitous Assassins to reposition them later.

 DarkHound wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
1. 2x5 Infiltrators might be better than a unit of 10x. I got to deploy first, and I put them right on top of the center objective. They were all killed via shooting without doing a thing on turn 1; he went first. But they did their job and left plenty of room to Solar Flare and then Deep Strike.

Yup, I felt that too running 1x8 (points limit prevented 10). That's why I was suspicious of all this Temporcopia non-sense: in practice the Infiltrators are not shock troops, they're board control. They score objectives and complete actions, because if you deploy a giant block of them up close, your opponent is going to delete them. Honestly, I think deploying them too far ahead isn't always warranted either, and the utility of their Infiltration can just be that they deploy last so you have full information. You can always take advantage of Circuitous Assassins to reposition them later.

My thinking as well. There are better melee units if you want them, but in general, absorbing charges with mass and then falling back so your guns can open up on targets seems more reliable for AdMech.

I think it's fine to deploy them aggressively. Just don't expect to see them on your turn.

I also do think that Infiltrators are mostly useable for Deploy Scramblers and/or get a lucky charge of and take a backfield objective to force the enemy to commit something to come back and hold it.

I've been looking at a 10 man unit of Ruststalkers quite longingly for now - they really seem like they can pack a punch.
A 10 man has unbuffed 31 S5 -3 D1 attacks which is nothing to scoff at. The real kicker imo is that if you spend some CP on them they can get Temporcopia and be immune to charges. If you splurge another CP on them for Host you can give them Firepoint Telemery which gives them an always-on 2+ save, or a 1+ when in terrain. Mind that their Wasteland Stalkers rule also works when in Dense Cover or Heavy Cover. An unsuspecting opponent might find himself pretty surprised if one goes second and suddenly these guys end up not only taking an objective from you, but requiring a good bit of firepower to remove them from it as well.
That way they are resilient to shooting, can take a light counterpunch in stride, blend many things they touch and might be a real PITA to remove.

 Thairne wrote:
I've been looking at a 10 man unit of Ruststalkers quite longingly for now - they really seem like they can pack a punch.
A 10 man has unbuffed 31 S5 -3 D1 attacks which is nothing to scoff at. The real kicker imo is that if you spend some CP on them they can get Temporcopia and be immune to charges. If you splurge another CP on them for Host you can give them Firepoint Telemery which gives them an always-on 2+ save, or a 1+ when in terrain. Mind that their Wasteland Stalkers rule also works when in Dense Cover or Heavy Cover. An unsuspecting opponent might find himself pretty surprised if one goes second and suddenly these guys end up not only taking an objective from you, but requiring a good bit of firepower to remove them from it as well.
That way they are resilient to shooting, can take a light counterpunch in stride, blend many things they touch and might be a real PITA to remove.

My primary concern is delivery. I mean, you could foot slog them, but they aren't especially fast, and they won't beat 10 Bladeguard Vets. But they are more point efficient, all things considered.

That said, if you are playing Lucius like me... do we need a fighting unit at all? A lot of stuff can just fall back and shoot in this army now. That or act as a tarpit all on their own.

I think the great part is that ruststalkers can kill a unit that is holding and blocking an objective, while at the same time take control of that objective.

Exactly.They might not beat 10 Bladeguard, but that is a tall order in itself. If you apply a CP and assume a 2+ WS, they do kill 4 on avg though.
But expecting 170 pts to kill 350pts of Bladeguard is a bit of a harsh metric

They do take it away from a lot of things and are relatively tough to remove, like I said.
Delivery might be a problem - or not, depending on where the objective is. They're not likely to take an obj in the enemy deploy, but a midfield objective can be reached with aggressive deployment (and with a potential 1+ with bulwark, that is not unreasonable).

Honestly with the durability buffs you can stack on them with FTPC getting a 2+ whenever they want, a 1+ save in terrain (and possibly -1 to hit in dense cover), and possibly Bulwark Imperative turn 1 they are probably fine just walking up the board and taking advantage of terrain. They're a lot more durable than you'd expect them to be, getting a shiny new 5++ definitely helps. And an 8" move is fast enough IMO especially if they're just advancing turn 1 anyway they probably won't have an issue getting into combat with something by turn 2 at latest. And if you're worried about them getting jumped throw Temporcopia on them to negate your opponent's charge. Plus Bladeguards are a max unit size of 6 anyway, I can see a unit of 10 handling them pretty well especially with Marshal rerolls to hit and wound and Assassin Constructs for +1A.

Very noobish question and I’m not
sure I have been playing this wrong...

But when fusilaves do a bombing run it’s counted from the base passing over a model not the wings as well right?

I’ve been playing it with a tight footprint of just the base passing over to be eligible

Is that correct?

The datasheet lacks the rule that tells you to measure to hull, so you instead measure to base.

always measure to the base if it exists unless a rule says otherwise.
Some units that for some reason have a normal base instead of a flyer base have a rule that says use the hull anyway

Thankyou

I thought so but had begun to doubt myself. I take it electro filament stratagem is the same

Thinking of how to adjust my army:

Broke the Infiltrators into 2x5 units and reduced the Raiders to a 5x unit. Their job is to forward deploy, carve out space for Deep Strikes, deny outflanking, and score Engage.

Combined the Ranger MSUs and upgraded them to a 20x unit because now I have two Infiltrator MSUs. Still got two Vanguard blobs. Going to pick one unit one turn one to Flare forward with Bulwark protection; regardless of my choice, the Rangers will be able to shoot without penalty thanks to Raiment. The others will footslog from behind and pile onto objectives. Corpuscarii are the deep striking bomb; they have better durability and firepower than Kataphrons still. I take Cartogrammist because I always intend to Deep Strike the Corpuscarii and want to still have the option to Deep Strike two other units, such as the Vanguard.

Giant firebase of 2x5 Ballistarii to delete vehicles and trouble units that the infantry may struggle against.

Currently debating these points:
1) Separate Lascannon and Autocannon units or to two units with 3x Lascannon and 2x Autocannon each? Keeping them separate seems to be the better call because I can choose which I need to protect more.
2) There's not much melee in this army because I didn't really feel a need for it. Nothing I have seems to be able to beat a dedicated melee unit, so my plan is to absorb a charge with a Vanguard blob, then fall back and shoot the melee off the board.
3) Do I even want to bother with Rangers? If I drop them, I don't even need the Raiment really. Should I try Breachers or Destroyers?

@suzuteo Looks good.

So 6 flier lists. I’m thinking of taking the plunge and mixing Mars and Lucius goodness. All the usual Lucius tricks like solar flare infantry bricks etc with the Mars reroll trickery for chickens and planes

Am I crazy? How long will I get before one rule change renders my army useless (like a points hike or fliers can’t get canticles)

I just can’t help loving spam haha

I'm not sure about blocks of 20 Rangers outside of Mars. Unless you spend CP on relics or traits, you really get stung by the Heavy penalty; it's hard to get LoS with all 20 guys even if (especially if) they stand still. With Mars they make sense because they're the most reliable way to hit 6 mortals on Wrath (Vanguard aren't ideal since they often skip the wound roll). Without buffs (since they apply fairly evenly and I don't wanna calculate more) 20 Vanguard spending 1 CP for Enriched inflicts an average 11 wounds againist T4 3+, while 20 Rangers spends 2 CP for Rapid Fire to inflict 13.4 wounds. Rangers do 20% more damage, but at significantly higher CP cost. Without buffs, Rangers and Vanguard do pretty close to the same damage (6.5 vs 6.7 at T4 3+).

I think you definitely should go 3 Las + 2 Autocannons for the Ironstriders. You get the option to lose autocannons first no matter what the opponent targets.

Ideasweasel, I don't think you're at any risk of a nerf ruining fliers. The only things to watch out for are the jump pack troops getting their stratagem nerfed, and maybe Wrath of Mars eating a nerf.