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2021/05/28 11:21:35
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I'm thinking it's a decent list, but the points values are still unsure.
My tactics; rangers hold backfield objectives and snipe characters with Mars reroll. Ironstriders go for flanking objectives and locate new firing angles. Vanguard act as a screens for vehicles, while moving to midfield.
Spoiler:
- Belisarius cawl gives full reroll to kastellan robots
- datasmith gives kastellan robots 'core'keyword
- tech-priest (magi) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots exploding 6s
- tech-priest (artisans) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots +1 S
Turn 1: doctrine protector (+1bs/-1ws), canticle shroudpsalm (+1sv)
Turn 2: doctrine bulwark (+1sv/-3mv), canticle benediction (reroll one hit/wound/dmg)
Turn 3-4: no doctrine, canticle (melee buffs)
Turn 5: no doctrine, canticle (roll extra d6 for advance/charge, discard lowest)
It's good to think about your Doctrina/Canticles in advance, but I would keep an open mind because the best combination is going to change for each match-up and specific situation. I think the list is most of the way there, however you're missing some key strengths by splitting up your squads so much. The Vanguard would be stronger as 20 so you could use Enriched Rounds more effectively. You should combine the squad of Ironstriders so you can use Dunestrider and other buffs more effectively.
There's also a lot of points bloat. You don't need all these data-tethers, since you're never going to pick a 5 man Ranger squad to ignore the Doctrina malus. I'm not such a fan of special weapons in general, but you'll have to try it. I do think the Powerswords and extra stubbers are a waste. I also don't think the Infiltrators even benefit from that trait, since their weapons are pistols.
laam999 wrote:I've been thinking of a list for myself to try, this should come to 1985 (based on the reddit spreadsheet)
Spoiler:
Brigade - Mars
HQ Dominus
Engineseer
Marshal
Troops
Vanguard (5) x3
Rangers (5) x3
Elites
Infiltrators (5) x2
Ruststalkers (5)
Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)
Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2
Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2
This will let me test a huge range of stuff and still have a list that LOOKS like an army. I never played Mars in 8th as I disliked their static style. I'm hoping for big things with them in 9th.
If needed I can drop the extra stubbers on crawlers for holy orders, I'll test this out first I think.
I have similar issues with this list. It seems like you're going to Brigade for its own sake, and you're not utilizing the central AdMech mechanic of buff stacking. All this work only nets you an extra Scorpius or Dunecrawler, and they're not even particularly good. If you drop one, you can combine some squads and still take a Battalion, then invest in your buffs. Get some 20 man Skitarii squads and some Holy Order traits.
Here is a big question on my mind right now. Will Secutarii get core? If not RIP my 30 hoplites. If they do though, definite chance of skitarii horde for me. As ryza, probably 60 vanguard, 30 hoplites rolling around with a manip and a marshal. Then have dragoons harass flanks. Then maybe some robots and/or dunecrawlers, as I don't have gun-chickens.
2021/05/28 18:56:00
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
DarkHound wrote: It's good to think about your Doctrina/Canticles in advance, but I would keep an open mind because the best combination is going to change for each match-up and specific situation. I think the list is most of the way there, however you're missing some key strengths by splitting up your squads so much. The Vanguard would be stronger as 20 so you could use Enriched Rounds more effectively. You should combine the squad of Ironstriders so you can use Dunestrider and other buffs more effectively.
There's also a lot of points bloat. You don't need all these data-tethers, since you're never going to pick a 5 man Ranger squad to ignore the Doctrina malus. I'm not such a fan of special weapons in general, but you'll have to try it. I do think the Powerswords and extra stubbers are a waste. I also don't think the Infiltrators even benefit from that trait, since their weapons are pistols.
Hey thanks, you're right about sicarian traits, i'll swap that with Marshall's one, and data tether is in key role for traits. It allows any Skitarii units with it ignore move-and-shoot penalty (rangers), and other allows fall-back-and-shoot, anywhere onboard with data tether (including onagers and ironstriders).
The stratagem for Vanguard is strong, and i'll might try it at some point with 20-man squad, however, it makes them vulnerable to blast weapons, and Mars reroll is more efficient with smaller squads (looking at plasma overcharge). And for that same reason, the ironstriders are single model units.
The power swords can be dropped, they're included just because of points, but stubber is mandatory in the datasheets (atleast in 8th edition codex)
Wh40k, necromunda, Mordheim
2021/05/28 23:19:53
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Ah, your points values are slightly off. The Neutron Dunecrawler is 120 now, so I thought you payed 5 more points for the extra stubber.
With regards to the Data-tethers, I just don't see the value in using the Warlord traits on the Rangers. If they get assaulted, they're probably dead, and if some survive do you really care about shooting with two or three models? Likewise, you're almost certainly going to use Battle-sphere Uplink on advancing Vanguard or Ironstriders instead, since it affects a more valuable unit.
For the Vanguard, the Marshall is necessarily going to be near them so they won't need a Data-tether (he's certainly not going to keep up with the Ironstriders). You're right that two squads double dips on Canticles and Mars dogma, but the Marshall gives them re-rolls anyway. They're more vulnerable to blast, but meaningful blast effects are pretty rare right now and the squad can better use Firepoint Telemetry Cache (which you absolutely need to include in the army). Personally, I'd drop Programmed Retreat for Firepoint. You can even take all 3 traits, using Mechanicum Locus on the Marshall and Host of the Intermediary twice on the Alphas (then the Vanguard may want a Data-tether). In fact, you can take another Cult Warlord trait on the Enginseer; you should probably take Panegyric Procession to triple up on a re-rolls or cover for your Robots.
You make a fair point about splitting up the Ironstriders for re-rolls, especially if you don't plan to pile buffs on them. I think over-all that piling buffs on them is better than doing the same to Robots, but we'll have to see how things play out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/28 23:22:37
So I just saw a battle report from Glasshammer Gaming of the new admech vs the new Drukhari. Drukahi were were being mowed down a ton initially by all the admech shooting. But from turn 2 onwards, once all the melee charges went in, Admech started falling behind.
One charge by a squad of 10 Hellions killed an entire squad of 5 ironstriders in melee in just one round. (strategems were used of course). And it was overkill cos there was a charge by a master succubus as well into that unit. The Drukhari then caught up in points from that point and ended up winning by a big margin by turn 5.
Which brings me to my next point. I think competitive Admech lists needs to have some screening and countercharge ready. Against armies like Druhari, where they can have multiple raiders in the midboard on turn 1, units like Hellions around too. Turn 2, you can easily expect their infantry to be able to reach your backline with a move advance and charge if they are unobstructed. You absolutely need to be able to screen effectively. Because I am not sure if you can position ironstriders so far back they are out of charge range on turn 2. Even with screens its not a gauranteed thing. Even screens can be removed by shooting so its not foolproof, but at least its something.
Because while ironstriders are an amazing unit (which I bet almost every competitive admech list will have), they are vulnerable to melee. Against such a fast mobile army like Drukhari, you can't afford to have nearly 400 points of a unit removed by a charge on turn 2. And shooting them all off the table isn't really always gonna work. Units like Hellions can hide behind obscuring on turn 1 on the midboard and then make a big advance move and charge on turn 2. And also because raiders are cheap and the infantry inside them are fairly cheap too. You might be able to shoot two or three raiders off the table in one shooting phase, but not five or six. And that probably goes for the contents in those raiders too. Like if you could remove six raiders and their cargo from one shooting phase, sure you probably won that match. But I don't think even admech shooting can do that right now... lol
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/29 05:24:05
2021/05/29 05:36:11
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I think that list is really far off from what competitive AdMech is going to look like. It has no melee threats, no blocks of Skitarii for concerted anti-infantry, and not a lot of buff overlaps for the Ironstriders. I don't think sprinkling in Kataphrons is very valuable; they'll probably be strong in a dedicated list, either the army of renown or a custom forgeworld (or simply gearing all the Holy Order traits toward them).
Even all that being said, he made a disastrous blunder by teleporting his premier shooting unit practically point blank to the enemy melee on the first turn. There weren't any Raiders in front screening them, though he could have set that up with the pregame moves. Ideally in that situation, he could measure the distance so disembarking troops could not possible charge the Ironstriders. Then he could coordinate to kill only those two Raiders, then their contents, and then chew through the midboard which are now too far away to contest the Ironstriders.
Nothing against the player, of course. He knew it wasn't an optimized list, and it's a lot of new stuff; they said he didn't remember he could teleport the Ironstriders until just then, so didn't plan around it. Lucius is a particularly tricky faction to play. Still, I think he screwed up on turn 1 and was never able to get back into the game.
I think that list is really far off from what competitive AdMech is going to look like. It has no melee threats, no blocks of Skitarii for concerted anti-infantry, and not a lot of buff overlaps for the Ironstriders. I don't think sprinkling in Kataphrons is very valuable; they'll probably be strong in a dedicated list, either the army of renown or a custom forgeworld (or simply gearing all the Holy Order traits toward them).
Even all that being said, he made a disastrous blunder by teleporting his premier shooting unit practically point blank to the enemy melee on the first turn. There weren't any Raiders in front screening them, though he could have set that up with the pregame moves. Ideally in that situation, he could measure the distance so disembarking troops could not possible charge the Ironstriders. Then he could coordinate to kill only those two Raiders, then their contents, and then chew through the midboard which are now too far away to contest the Ironstriders.
Nothing against the player, of course. He knew it wasn't an optimized list, and it's a lot of new stuff; they said he didn't remember he could teleport the Ironstriders until just then, so didn't plan around it. Lucius is a particularly tricky faction to play. Still, I think he screwed up on turn 1 and was never able to get back into the game.
Correct. It was this battle report. He did say it wasn't an optimised list, and he was just playing with the admech units they had available. But yeah, the importance of screening with admech cannot be understated. Hence my post.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/29 05:47:40
2021/05/29 06:04:39
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Yeah, Raiders exist to bubble wrap shooting units. That's why Spearheads of them kept showing up in all sorts of competitive lists since their release, even outside of AdMech. Any competitive list will probably have 3x3 of them.
I think that game does highlight an important skill to play AdMech well: the army needs LoS angles, and you need to plan to achieve them immediately and consistently. The Solar Flare play can be excellent, and I expect it to menace some tournaments. You can achieve similar effects with Dunestrider and +3"M Doctrina.
I'll reiterate my earlier point, the movement Doctrina is more valuable than +1 BS, particularly when going first. Increasing BS is great, but first you need to be able to see. I think the effect of -1 sv is overblown in a lot of situations. For example, that Dark Eldar list only has 7 Dark Lances to threaten the Ironstriders. Even if all of them could shoot into the Ironstriders, it'd only kill two on average. In practice, those fast Ironstriders could kill a couple and be out of reach from most of the rest.
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, Raiders exist to bubble wrap shooting units. That's why Spearheads of them kept showing up in all sorts of competitive lists since their release, even outside of AdMech. Any competitive list will probably have 3x3 of them.
I think that game does highlight an important skill to play AdMech well: the army needs LoS angles, and you need to plan to achieve them immediately and consistently. The Solar Flare play can be excellent, and I expect it to menace some tournaments. You can achieve similar effects with Dunestrider and +3"M Doctrina.
I'll reiterate my earlier point, the movement Doctrina is more valuable than +1 BS, particularly when going first. Increasing BS is great, but first you need to be able to see. I think the effect of -1 sv is overblown in a lot of situations. For example, that Dark Eldar list only has 7 Dark Lances to threaten the Ironstriders. Even if all of them could shoot into the Ironstriders, it'd only kill two on average. In practice, those fast Ironstriders could kill a couple and be out of reach from most of the rest.
Ironstriders can handle being shot at just fine. I wouldnt be quite worried about them getting shot at. Its getting charged in melee that will totally shut them down. Hence why screening is extremely important for admech.
2021/05/29 14:43:07
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
DarkHound wrote: Ah, your points values are slightly off. The Neutron Dunecrawler is 120 now, so I thought you payed 5 more points for the extra stubber.
With regards to the Data-tethers, I just don't see the value in using the Warlord traits on the Rangers. If they get assaulted, they're probably dead, and if some survive do you really care about shooting with two or three models? Likewise, you're almost certainly going to use Battle-sphere Uplink on advancing Vanguard or Ironstriders instead, since it affects a more valuable unit.
For the Vanguard, the Marshall is necessarily going to be near them so they won't need a Data-tether (he's certainly not going to keep up with the Ironstriders). You're right that two squads double dips on Canticles and Mars dogma, but the Marshall gives them re-rolls anyway. They're more vulnerable to blast, but meaningful blast effects are pretty rare right now and the squad can better use Firepoint Telemetry Cache (which you absolutely need to include in the army). Personally, I'd drop Programmed Retreat for Firepoint. You can even take all 3 traits, using Mechanicum Locus on the Marshall and Host of the Intermediary twice on the Alphas (then the Vanguard may want a Data-tether). In fact, you can take another Cult Warlord trait on the Enginseer; you should probably take Panegyric Procession to triple up on a re-rolls or cover for your Robots.
You make a fair point about splitting up the Ironstriders for re-rolls, especially if you don't plan to pile buffs on them. I think over-all that piling buffs on them is better than doing the same to Robots, but we'll have to see how things play out.
I'm not yet familiar with the trait names, what are battle sphere uplink and firepoint telemetry? I've had games with guard, tau and necrons before, and I know the value of fall-back-and-shoot with gunline armies, so the programmed retreat is a must-have.
The rangers are optimal choice for keeping backfield objectives and shoot, and with data tether they can be supported (most importantly, they can move-and-shoot without penalty, so they're able to re-position).
I'll have to wait for the codex to arrive, because i've seen in multiple sources different points values for onagers.
Wh40k, necromunda, Mordheim
2021/05/29 16:49:46
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Battlesphere Uplink is 'move and shoot without penalty', Firepoint Telemetry Cache is 'unit has light cover, and an infantry unit in terrain gets an additional +1 sv'. Keep in mind, you can only target one unit with these effects per turn. You can't just wave your hand and say "these effects are good" or "they can be supported" without considering specifically how they'd be implemented.
Imagine you've got a 50 point Ranger squad with an Arquebus by itself. Would you pay 20 points and a CP so they'll get to ignore the heavy penalty? You're paying 40% of a squad's cost for sometimes getting an 11% buff. That's what you're investing because you don't know which squad is going to get the buff, so you have to consider the total cost paid for the opportunity. Worse, you're probably not going to use it on the Rangers even if they move, since you'll prioritize using it on the Vanguard or Ironstriders. It's 20 points for a small chance to ignore the penalty.
Programmed Retreat is worthwhile only if you've got large blocks of shooting elements, like a 20 man block of Skitarii or two, or a pack of Ironstriders. Like I said, if Rangers get charged then they're probably dead anyway, and at best shooting with one or two models is not worth the investment. A 10 man Vanguard squad is closer to worthwhile, but they're still going to lose half their squad in the fight. Your most important shooting unit is the Robots (which can shoot into melee combat), but they can't even benefit from Programmed Retreat; they aren't Skitarii, and can't move when in shooting mode anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/29 16:51:53
laam999 wrote:I've been thinking of a list for myself to try, this should come to 1985 (based on the reddit spreadsheet)
Spoiler:
Brigade - Mars
HQ Dominus
Engineseer
Marshal
Troops
Vanguard (5) x3
Rangers (5) x3
Elites
Infiltrators (5) x2
Ruststalkers (5)
Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)
Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2
Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2
This will let me test a huge range of stuff and still have a list that LOOKS like an army. I never played Mars in 8th as I disliked their static style. I'm hoping for big things with them in 9th.
If needed I can drop the extra stubbers on crawlers for holy orders, I'll test this out first I think.
I have similar issues with this list. It seems like you're going to Brigade for its own sake, and you're not utilizing the central AdMech mechanic of buff stacking. All this work only nets you an extra Scorpius or Dunecrawler, and they're not even particularly good. If you drop one, you can combine some squads and still take a Battalion, then invest in your buffs. Get some 20 man Skitarii squads and some Holy Order traits.
To be honest yeah, this won't be a hyper competitive list, but it'll let me test a large variety and as you said I get to use a brigade for the sake of it.
Approx armies
9000pts AdMech (Main army)
7000pts Black Templars (original army)
3500pts Death Guard (lazy side project)
2000pts Imperial Knights (extension of AdMech)
2000pts Harlequins (fun side project)
2021/05/29 18:35:46
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Secondaries: (AdMech) Eradication of Flesh. Engage on all fronts & Deploy Scramblers probably.
Lucius - because the defence/deployment combo is great.
Inquisitor - for CP refund generation as well as a Warp Charge 4 ignore morale (or smite if needed - e.g. additional phase for Ctan's etc), as well as a Ld boost - with data tethers most units are Ld10 - great for the 20block rangers etc.
Technoarchaeologist - he can allow a unit of core or servitors to perform actions without loosing shooting if needed. the +1S Artisan boost on the rangers. & potentail repairs on the vehicles/destroyers.
Marshal & Manipulus - boost the rangers mostly for Transhuman & ignore AP-1 & -2, 39" (Lucius boost + Manipulus), S5 (with Technoboy) AP-2 D1, 40 shots (80 in 19" for 2CP) rerolling 1's to hit & wound. And a 1+ in cover before doctrinas against D1 weapons.
Breachers, mainly for holding primary objectives & taking out vehicles with arc rifles, Hydraulic claws because who doesn't want thunder hammer armed obsec terminators.
Destroyers - because I have the models, and it is additonal high strength firepower.
Vanguard - these are split - for actions options as well as board control/deep-strike prevention- to cover the backfield etc, the larger unit so that enriched rounds might be worth it.
Infiltrators forward deploy - preventing units from counter-deploying too close to my lines, giving space to my shooting units & space for raiders to move up too. turn 1/2 maybe move towards the board edge for CA to go for backfield units etc.
Sterylizor - because 15" flamers (Lucius bonus) out of deep strike is funny, and could be used for scramblers/engage if needed - hopefully booster thrust remains ok in a few weeks.
Ironstriders - because Ironstriders (I only own 4 - sad face...)
the other HS vehicles - because of NMNR secondary, and they have a bunch of shooting too. Technoboy would repair these if needed.
EDIT: also, I do not own planes, nor do I want to. not a fan of the model, I have most other units though, so feel free to recommend alternatives (this list though has the max number of skitarii with basic weapons I have and max number of Ironstriders too).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/29 18:51:13
Praise the Omnissiah
About 4k of .
Imperial Knights (Valiant, Warden & Armigers)
Some Misc. Imperium units etc. Assassins...
About 2k of
2021/05/29 18:50:09
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Heavy Support
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
240 Total Points
Overall
195 HQs 630 Troops
510 Fast Attack
240 Heavy Support
1,995 Total Points
Not sure how well the formatting will work, but hopefullt it's legible! For those who don't want the Google Doc link.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/29 20:57:45
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
2021/05/29 21:28:59
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)
Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2
Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2
It seems like you're going to Brigade for its own sake, and you're not utilizing the central AdMech mechanic of buff stacking. All this work only nets you an extra Scorpius or Dunecrawler, and they're not even particularly good. If you drop one, you can combine some squads and still take a Battalion, then invest in your buffs. Get some 20 man Skitarii squads and some Holy Order traits.
To be honest yeah, this won't be a hyper competitive list, but it'll let me test a large variety and as you said I get to use a brigade for the sake of it.
Sure thing, but I think you'll have more fun dropping a Heavy Support to take blocks of 20 Skitarii instead. It feels really good to plan your buffs and execute this huge swing turns.
Still wrapping my head around a lot of 9th edition, so if I missed obvious stuff or anything - that is why!
Your list seems decent, it looks like you're covering all your bases. Your points are off, the Knight Crusader is actually 475 base now. I'd probably invest in the Ion Bulwark Warlord trait for it even though you're short on CP. It pays for itself the first time you'd want to Rotate Ion Shields then effectively earns a CP each time after.
Chaff launchers are a tough take because you lose the Electro-whatever-filament to turn off aura effects. Reducing damage isn't actually that important since you often want to detonate the Fusilave in their lines with Vengeance of the Machine Spirit. That threat alone can often make enemies leery of shooting them down.
I also think the Enginseer isn't doing much. The Dunecrawlers aren't quite worth buffing or repairing. You could justify another HQ by taking a Technoarcheologist with Logi to buff the Vanguard and help them complete actions. Otherwise you could probably drop it and scrounge up points for another Dragoon or something.
Heavy Support
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
240 Total Points
Overall
195 HQs 630 Troops
510 Fast Attack
240 Heavy Support
1,995 Total Points
Not sure how well the formatting will work, but hopefullt it's legible! For those who don't want the Google Doc link.
This is certainly different. All those Ryza Kataphrons, but no Plasma Destroyers? Your list is pretty focused, it's either going to work or it's not, and only testing will tell. I think the Dunecrawlers aren't doing that much with Phosphor Blasters. You'll want to find somewhere to cut points for Holy Order traits. Maybe, because you have so many small Kataphron squads, you'd be better off trading a Manipulus for a Dominus to buff all of them. I haven't thought very much about Kataphron spam, so I don't know what combination of Warlord traits, Relics, and other buffs are best.
DarkHound wrote:Did I post here about the Relentless Wrath + Cold Eradication Knight Paladin I was considering? I eventually swung around to the Fury of the Keep and Blessed by Metalica for two reasons. Blessed by Metalica gives the Manipulus a little more to do (plus dramatically improves the Knight's survivability), and you can get the effect of Cold Eradication through Lockstep Advance if you need it. Relentless Wrath is definitely good, but Fury of the Keep gets significantly more benefit from the re-roll Canticle. The Canticle pushes Fury up to averaging a dead Plagueburst Crawler or Redemptor Dreadnought, which is tremendous. By the way, you didn't pay for Knight of the Iron Cog on that Crusader.
I think the best hybrid Knight is the Magaera. The claw and rad flamer come free now; the former has a profile strictly better than feet.
And yeah, I forgot to list the Knight of the Iron Cog CP cost.
DarkHound wrote:As a general note, I realized I'm uncomfortable playing lists without some small squads for actions. In particular, your Lucius and Metalica lists may run into awkward situations for secondaries, since they can't quite fall back on Scramblers.
I am actually realizing this as well. There are definitely cases where the Scramblers might come in handy.
What do people think about WWSWF? The 2x5 Ironstrider lists seem to be able to do it very well. Mars also has those unkillable Booster Bats. Lol.
DarkHound wrote:I'm not totally sure about the double Dunecrawlers, but I like their math against cheap vehicle spam like Raiders and that new Necron list. They add autocannons to compliment my otherwise Meltagun based anti-tank. Maybe trading one for another Fusilave is better depending on the meta.
I have been thinking of where double Crawlers fit in, and I think it's probably in lists that don't have great shooting options, and they cannot set aside HQs to babysit them. So Metalica and Ryza.
I actually think the Twin Phosphor Blasters have the best math though. Ignore Dense Cover is also more useful than anti-Aircraft. That said, Icarus Array can now split fire...
JNAProductions wrote:First poke at a Ryza list, found here on a Google Doc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heavy Support
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
120 Onager Dunecrawler: Twin Onager Heavy Phosphor Blaster, Cognis Heavy Stubber
240 Total Points
Overall
195 HQs 630 Troops
510 Fast Attack
240 Heavy Support
1,995 Total Points
Not sure how well the formatting will work, but hopefullt it's legible! For those who don't want the Google Doc link.
I'm not so sure Ryza works until they Kataphrons get Core. Plasma Destroyers sorta suck. And Breachers are pretty much useless for their primary job if they don't have a Techno nearby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/30 05:54:52
2021/05/30 07:13:13
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
DarkHound wrote:Did I post here about the Relentless Wrath + Cold Eradication Knight Paladin I was considering? I eventually swung around to the Fury of the Keep and Blessed by Metalica for two reasons... The Canticle pushes Fury up to averaging a dead Plagueburst Crawler or Redemptor Dreadnought, which is tremendous.
I think the best hybrid Knight is the Magaera. The claw and rad flamer come free now; the former has a profile strictly better than feet.
And yeah, I forgot to list the Knight of the Iron Cog CP cost.
I agree and that's what forced me to take the Crusader, which justifies its existence only by being different enough. For anyone considering adding a Knight, unfortunately you really only have those 2 options right now. You could hypothetically take a Castellan, though it's a huge CP investment before you even consider House Raven's Order of Companions. There is an outside consideration for the Cerastus Knight Lancer, which is apparently great, but costs $300 from Forgeworld.
Suzuteo wrote: What do people think about WWSWF? The 2x5 Ironstrider lists seem to be able to do it very well. Mars also has those unkillable Booster Bats. Lol.
I actually think this is a really strong consideration for AdMech. Ironstriders are far enough away and fast enough to run and preserve themselves. It's easy to include Cawl, booster bats, or even a token Disintegrator to enable While We Stand. That's just 15 points in some matchups without strong alpha-strikes, like hordes.
Suzuteo wrote: I actually think the Twin Phosphor Blasters have the best math though. Ignore Dense Cover is also more useful than anti-Aircraft. That said, Icarus Array can now split fire...
This has been bugging me, so I finally did the math.As usual, it's a toss up between the Icarus and the Neutron depending on what you need. The Neutron is generally better (though unreliable), but the Icarus is significantly better against Raiders and any aircraft. The Eradication Beamer continues to fail to justify its existence compared to the Neutron Laser. The Phosphor Blaster isn't an anti-tank gun, but amusingly it keeps up with the Neutron against Raiders.
Now here's the thing about the Dense Cover rule for Phosphor. Dense cover reduces damage by a third, so rather than multiply every other stat by 3/4, it's easier to multiply Phosphor by 4/3 to get the new rankings (just not the actual damage amount). In that case Phosphor gets:
3.18/3.18;5.96/4.81
So, hilariously, when in dense cover it beats other anti-tank except the Neutron against T7 no invul. Now, it still doesn't beat the Icarus by very much in any category: it's an average 8% damage increase. It's amusing, but not practical.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/30 07:57:19
DarkHound wrote: This has been bugging me, so I finally did the math.As usual, it's a toss up between the Icarus and the Neutron depending on what you need. The Neutron is generally better (though unreliable), but the Icarus is significantly better against Raiders and any aircraft. The Eradication Beamer continues to fail to justify its existence compared to the Neutron Laser. The Phosphor Blaster isn't an anti-tank gun, but amusingly it keeps up with the Neutron against Raiders.
Now here's the thing about the Dense Cover rule for Phosphor. Dense cover reduces damage by a third, so rather than multiply every other stat by 3/4, it's easier to multiply Phosphor by 4/3 to get the new rankings (just not the actual damage amount). In that case Phosphor gets:
3.18/3.18;5.96/4.81
So, hilariously, when in dense cover it beats other anti-tank except the Neutron against T7 no invul. Now, it still doesn't beat the Icarus by very much in any category: it's an average 8% damage increase. It's amusing, but not practical.
Wait what? T6-7? Most of the targets I was thinking of are T3 or T5-6.
Kabalites, Wracks, and Incubi are T3 without an invulnerable save. Though I think Wracks have a 5+++? Venoms are T5 4+/5++ and Raiders are T6 4+/5++.
That said, I do think Icarus are very strong, and they shouldn't really be firing all their guns at the same target.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/30 08:12:25
2021/05/30 08:38:10
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Oh, actually taking them for anti-infantry work? Yeah, we were on way different wave-lengths. I just assumed the plethora of melee options and hordes of Skitarii we were already bringing covered that by default.
Against Venoms, the Phosphor performs basically the same as an Icarus at ~4.8.
The Icarus has the option to split fire, I'm just not sure how practical that is. I guess you could shoot the autocannon at W2 models, and fire the rockets into chaff, and send the missile at a vehicle. But actually the autocannon is the best part for anti-tank, and the missile would be wasted on infantry, so actually you're just firing rockets at chaff. That's fine, but the rockets are actually pretty good against T6 targets too, which is why you took an Icarus Array. So most of the time I think the weapons are still going into the same target.
DarkHound wrote: Oh, actually taking them for anti-infantry work? Yeah, we were on way different wave-lengths. I just assumed the plethora of melee options and hordes of Skitarii we were already bringing covered that by default.
Against Venoms, the Phosphor performs basically the same as an Icarus at ~4.8.
The Icarus has the option to split fire, I'm just not sure how practical that is. I guess you could shoot the autocannon at W2 models, and fire the rockets into chaff, and send the missile at a vehicle. But actually the autocannon is the best part for anti-tank, and the missile would be wasted on infantry, so actually you're just firing rockets at chaff. That's fine, but the rockets are actually pretty good against T6 targets too, which is why you took an Icarus Array. So most of the time I think the weapons are still going into the same target.
Oh, I see your point. Yeah, for anti-vehicle and anti-monster, Icarus is the way to go. Neutron is still only good against high toughness targets with no invulnerable save, like Guard vehicles.
2021/05/31 02:49:41
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
DarkHound wrote: Your list seems decent, it looks like you're covering all your bases. Your points are off, the Knight Crusader is actually 475 base now. I'd probably invest in the Ion Bulwark Warlord trait for it even though you're short on CP. It pays for itself the first time you'd want to Rotate Ion Shields then effectively earns a CP each time after.
Chaff launchers are a tough take because you lose the Electro-whatever-filament to turn off aura effects. Reducing damage isn't actually that important since you often want to detonate the Fusilave in their lines with Vengeance of the Machine Spirit. That threat alone can often make enemies leery of shooting them down.
I also think the Enginseer isn't doing much. The Dunecrawlers aren't quite worth buffing or repairing. You could justify another HQ by taking a Technoarcheologist with Logi to buff the Vanguard and help them complete actions. Otherwise you could probably drop it and scrounge up points for another Dragoon or something.
I appreciate the feedback. I have been really digging into the new Codex and trying to find a list I want to play, want to build/paint, but also one that won't kill my wallet (lol in this hobby).
So I reworked it taking into account your notes but also just generally tinkering.
The chaff can be tossed if I find it does wind up being less optimal - in that, I could add Logi to the Technoarcheologist and pad out the Ranger squad with a dude.
How does that look? I think it has synergy and will be fun on the table without being a pushover. One thing I am concerned with is how slim it is on CP. Not sure how to remedy that though by its nature. At least the Artisan saves me a CP.
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, Raiders exist to bubble wrap shooting units. That's why Spearheads of them kept showing up in all sorts of competitive lists since their release, even outside of AdMech. Any competitive list will probably have 3x3 of them.
How is everyone using Raiders now that Obliqua was nerfed? We can't really intentionally bait people to charge then run away anymore.
2021/05/31 08:40:24
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Raiders are less of a screen, partly to a change of their profile, partlyto tactica oblica being... suboptimal now...
To me they seem like a tool to prevent aggressive deployment of strong shooty elements.
With a 12" pregame move and a 12" normal move you can cross from your deploy into his deploy T1. And anything that is within 6" of that has a reasonable chance to be tagged and taking out the heavy guns for a turn while they fall back or try to shoot the threat off of them.
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2021/05/31 10:28:47
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Thairne wrote: Raiders are less of a screen, partly to a change of their profile, partlyto tactica oblica being... suboptimal now...
To me they seem like a tool to prevent aggressive deployment of strong shooty elements.
With a 12" pregame move and a 12" normal move you can cross from your deploy into his deploy T1. And anything that is within 6" of that has a reasonable chance to be tagged and taking out the heavy guns for a turn while they fall back or try to shoot the threat off of them.
Yeah. You run them to an objective and prevent your opponent from outflanking or deep striking. Obliqua is used to protect themselves, not other units.
2021/05/31 11:44:54
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
They are also a good target for Wrath of Mars, since each 6 will be 2 mortal wounds with their sniper rules. They can become insanely tough with Mars letting them combine Shroudpsalm with the +1 save Doctrina, and they make good caddies for some of the relics and wargear that we can give Skitarii units now.
I'm looking to run a single unit of 9 with the fight last relic as part of a Mars Outrider detachment.
AdMech (Main army)
Black Templars (original army)
Death Guard (lazy side project)
Imperial Knights (extension of AdMech)
Harlequins (fun side project)
