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 Suzuteo wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, this is the most tryhard list I have come up with so far:

Spoiler:

Mars Patrol Detachment - 1370

HQ - 155
Tech-Priest Dominus - Logi (35)
Skitarii Marshal A - Warlord, Firepoint Telemetry Cache

Troop - 170
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex

Elite - 85
5x Sicarian Infiltrator

Fast Attack - 700
5x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
5x Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Lascannon

Flyers - 260
1x Archaeopter Fusilave
1x Archaeopter Fusilave

Mars Patrol Detachment - 629 (-2 CP)

HQ - 140
Tech-Priest Manipulus - Magnarail Lance, Artisans (25)
Skitarii Marshal B - Programmed Retreat (-1 CP), Exemplar's Eternity

Troop - 170
20x Skitarii Ranger - Enhanced Data-tether, Omnispex

Fast Attack - 319
10x Pteraxii Sterylizors - The Skull of Elder Nikola (-1 CP)
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether

Total: 1999 points
8 CP

Infiltrators to scout deploy to a far objective. Raiders will go to back them up and screen a flank.

Two blobs of Rangers move up on turn one under Bulwark and Shroudpsalm. Manipulus and Marshal B babysit them with rerolls and the ability to fall back and shoot. They also have data-tether so Marshal A can give them cover at will.

Double Archaeopter bomb the enemy and slow enemy units.

Dominus and Marshal A babysit the firebase, which is a massive deathball of chickens with rerolls. Logi will be used to give them even more durability.

Pteraxii will abuse Booster to jump around spitting shots and MWs. Tesla Skull also looks like great value.

Neat List //shudders//. what about adding Temporcopia relic for fights last on either the raiders or infiltrators to keep them safer early game? also what do you think about runnning this list as Lucius for the durability buffs instead? having a bunch of better saves instead of a relativly small amount of rerolls when the list does not have that many units (and those units rely on massed firepower instead of a small amount of big guns) might be useful?

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Also where do you get your 5++ for Dragoons ? They're 6++ base.

The Bionics were upgraded for the Sicarians, Pteraxii, Serberys, and Ironstriders. It's 5++ now.

Ironstriders didn't get enhanced bionics, they're still on a 6++ but they're both on a 3+ basic save instead of the 4+ they used to have. Sicarians, Pteraxii and Serbyrus are the only ones that got enhanced bionics. Oh and the Enginseer got a huge statline upgrade too.

 The Forgemaster wrote:
Neat List //shudders//. what about adding Temporcopia relic for fights last on either the raiders or infiltrators to keep them safer early game? also what do you think about runnning this list as Lucius for the durability buffs instead? having a bunch of better saves instead of a relativly small amount of rerolls when the list does not have that many units (and those units rely on massed firepower instead of a small amount of big guns) might be useful?

Instead of fighting first, which is pretty meh for a list that wants to shoot, my thinking is that you have two ways to fall back and shoot, so why not use them?

That said, I've been trying to fit Dragoons into a Mars list with Temporcopia and Archived Engagements, mostly because they are my personal favorite model. That version of the list will use Vanguard blobs (which can use Wrath and the auto-wound on 4s). My guess is also that Booster will get nerfed quickly. That stratagem is too ridiculous. If so, I will probably drop them to break the Raider unit into 2x5 (or just go Battalion) and consider taking an Inquisitor or even a Dunecrawler.

Octovol wrote:
Ironstriders didn't get enhanced bionics, they're still on a 6++ but they're both on a 3+ basic save instead of the 4+ they used to have. Sicarians, Pteraxii and Serbyrus are the only ones that got enhanced bionics. Oh and the Enginseer got a huge statline upgrade too.

Oh damn. You're right. I must have just gaslit myself into thinking only the Vanguard and Rangers were 6+.

 Suzuteo wrote:

These are just effective hits. As in, how many successful hits you land against a target without any minus to hit modifiers. In just this step, you end up with twice as many Dragoon hits as you would Robot hits.

Dragoons have exploding hits. On a natural 5, it's +2 attacks. On a natural 6, it's +3 attacks. These are due to the Dragoon and Skitarii-specific buffs that the Robot does not have access to.

Yeah my maths included the exploding attacks on 6, and the damage of both units, because hitting something is cool but it has to wound and damage it too to have valuable data in my eyes, and Dragoons don't perform the same without more buffs.

 Suzuteo wrote:

These days, everyone loves melta-type weapons.

Ah yeah forgot about those, 1d6+3 right ? Well, 1W is 1W.

 Suzuteo wrote:

You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\

On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.

Though I agree we'll mostly use Binharic Override because the system is still clumsy as hell.

Would it be silly to have my Marshal and Manipulus following the block of 20 vanguard around, to give them immunity to -1/-2AP (with holy order), an extra -1AP and 6” range on their carbines, and re-roll 1’s to wound? Or should I have them helping out other stuff?

 Aaranis wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\

On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.

Though I agree we'll mostly use Binharic Override because the system is still clumsy as hell.

If you start switching protocol in T1 you lose the Core keyword on your robots until AFTER the command phase of T2, meaning any time you manually switch your robots you lose Core for the turn when your new protocol comes into effect where you actually want to use them with buffs. Which is either an absurdly huge oversight or just bad design. I honestly can't believe it's intentional lol

Octovol wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\

On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.

Though I agree we'll mostly use Binharic Override because the system is still clumsy as hell.

If you start switching protocol in T1 you lose the Core keyword on your robots until AFTER the command phase of T2, meaning any time you manually switch your robots you lose Core for the turn when your new protocol comes into effect where you actually want to use them with buffs. Which is either an absurdly huge oversight or just bad design. I honestly can't believe it's intentional lol

Agreed, lets hope for a quick FAQ to sort it out.

Okay maybe I'm dense but I don't see the problem. Following the rules for the reprogramming;

- Turn 1, I move my Kastelan Robots, I move my Datasmith within 3" of them;
- End of Turn 1 Movement Phase, I start reprogramming my Robots in Conqueror Mode;
- Turn 2, end of my Command Phase, the Action is completed;
- The action completed, I get my Datasmith's aura back;
- Movement phase, I move my Robots and my Datasmith, my Conqueror Protocols are active, and as long as they're within 3" of each other I have my <Core> aura;

It's bothersome but it's not unplayable ?

 deffrekka wrote:


All id like to see is the strat cost 2CP and remove the action interaction. Everything about it is fine, its only 1 unit of Pteraxii.

So basically... you think the strat costs half as much as it should and that it shouldn't allow the strongest thing it currently allows...but "otherwise" it's fine?

I'm not sure we disagree.

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah my maths included the exploding attacks on 6, and the damage of both units, because hitting something is cool but it has to wound and damage it too to have valuable data in my eyes, and Dragoons don't perform the same without more buffs.

I don't think you did include the exploding attacks.

To break it down: ((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

These are the raw number of attacks from the Dragoons. 4 models, each with 4 attacks. I made a typo earlier where one was 20.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Exploding 6s.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Exploding 5s.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Roll to hit.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Reroll to hit.

In summary, the Dragoons get roughly double the hits, then they get to reroll 1s to wound. They also get to fight first and in many cases, make the opponent fight last. These are all huge advantages.

 Aaranis wrote:
Ah yeah forgot about those, 1d6+3 right ? Well, 1W is 1W.

It's generally S8+ and DD6+. I guess Robots break even on the durability. Dragoons get -1 to hit, but Robots have one more point on the inv. save. T6 and T7 make no difference when the standard is S8 and up.

 Aaranis wrote:
On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.

Assuming you pick Shroudpsalm, yes. Not a problem. But in cases where you want to pick Vengeance for the advance and rely on the Mars WLT to give Shroudpsalm to the Robots, it can be a problematic.

I don't have the Codex yet-if someone can give me the stats on the Bots and Dragoons, I can double check all the math.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I don't think you did include the exploding attacks.

To break it down: ((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

These are the raw number of attacks from the Dragoons. 4 models, each with 4 attacks. I made a typo earlier where one was 20.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Exploding 6s.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Exploding 5s.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Roll to hit.

((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518

Reroll to hit.

In summary, the Dragoons get roughly double the hits, then they get to reroll 1s to wound. They also get to fight first and in many cases, make the opponent fight last. These are all huge advantages.

Yeah if you use 1CP for the exploding 5s, + a Marshall + rerolls to hit (from the Marshal ?) + rerolls 1s to wound (Marshal's relic ?) of course you're going to do more damage, I was comparing them bare bones because that's less variables and it's a more accurate comparison.

But let's say your Marshal is dead or couldn't keep up, you ran out of CP, and the Dragoons are on their own, they do 16 hits on average (because it's 0/6 + 0/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 3/6 = 6/6 so 16 hits). And when you want to actually hurt something in these conditions they do less damage than Bots in the same conditions, in quote for ease of reading:

3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T6-7-8-9 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(4/6) = 8,33 wounds *(5/6) = 6,94 unsaved wounds *3D = 20,83 total damage (against any medium-heavy tank or Knight)
3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T5 or less and 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(5/6) = 10,42 wounds *(5/6) = 8,68 unsaved wounds *3D = 26,04 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis, so 300 pts of Kastelan kill 8,66 Gravis)

4 Dragoons vs T5-7 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(4/6) = 10,66 wounds *(4/6) = 7,11 unsaved wounds *2D = 14,22 total damage (remembering that each Gravis would need two unsaved Wounds to die)
4 Dragoons vs T8 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(3/6) = 8 wounds *(4/6) = 5,33 unsaved wounds *2D = 10,66 total damage

Now with rerolls 1s to hit (both), rerolls 1s to wound (Dragoons) stratagems (5+ exploding) and such, and they're Ryza too:

3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T9 or less and 3+ : 15*(5/6+1/6*5/6) = 14,58 hits *(5/6) = 12,15 wounds *(5/6) = 10,13 unsaved wounds *3D = 30,38 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis, so 300 pts of Kastelan kill 10 Gravis)

4 Dragoons vs T5-7 3+ : 16*(8/6+1/6*8/6) = 24,89 hits *(5/6) = 20,74 wounds *(4/6+1/6*4/6) = 16,13 unsaved wounds *2D = 32,26 total damage
4 Dragoons vs T8 3+ : 16*(8/6+1/6*8/6) = 24,89 hits *(4/6) = 16,59 wounds *(4/6+1/6*4/6) = 12,90 unsaved wounds *2D = 25,80 total damage

So buffed to the brim, charging with Ryza (+1 to Wound), rerolling 1s to Hit and to Wound with a Relic, using a CP for exploding 5s, they barely outdamage Robots that can't reroll wounds and don't have exploding hits.

In conclusion:

The Dragoons have a waaaay better mobility, no contest there, but they need their Marshal with relic within 6", +1CP to have their full damage potential. Their footprint is way larger too, which is nice to roadblock but can be a pain to manoeuver at the same time.

Durability-wise yeah they're about the same with the -1 to be Hit, however they're T6 3+/6++ 6W vs T7 3+/5++ (vs shooting only) 7W. The better invulnerable has its value too.

Damage-wise, they're excessively dangerous to their targets and will likely wipe them out on the charge if the conditions are right. They have the advantage against Bots if their target has an invulnerable save. If you have Temporcopia the enemy fights last, but that requires the bearer within 3", so you're right that the Raider Alpha is perfect for this role.

Robots need only their protocol changed and a reroll from the Warlord to be at their best, so less CP and relic hungry, they can essentially do their thing on their own if needed and still be brutal. If their Datasmith is within 3", use 1 CP and the enemy (save Monsters and Vehicles) fights last too. Also as a bonus they have a cool gun or flamer for the first turn.

So I don't see the dilemma as clear-cut as you, it's a question of tools for the right tasks. Both are a big distraction and can't be ignored, both can wreck stuff easily. It depends on the list you build in the end.

anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol

well, your not the only one, this popped up in my youtube feed about a half hour ago.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taHWRk0uTAI

(link to youtube video by auspex tactics, entitled "Horde admech incoming", discussing running a skitarii horde admech list)

Meh, kinda?

I expect to be running between 65-90 depending on which forgeworld. Lucius you'll generally see 80-90 (4x17-20, 2x5).

Mars or other ones I can't see more than 65 or so because they are much more vulnerable in that space. So you just have them as trading pieces instead of them being the core of the list. Granted the best part is that the "Core" of even a lucius list is only 720pts

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah if you use 1CP for the exploding 5s, + a Marshall + rerolls to hit (from the Marshal ?) + rerolls 1s to wound (Marshal's relic ?) of course you're going to do more damage, I was comparing them bare bones because that's less variables and it's a more accurate comparison.

To be clear, the math only accounts for reroll 1s, and Robots also get reroll 1s. And yes, 1 CP to have exploding 5s and a relic for exploding 6s. The problem with Robots is that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to make them work, but there's not much stratagem or relic support for them.

Marshals by default have reroll 1 to wound for Skitarii Core. The relic lets them reroll hits as well, but a Dominus can give that reroll too.

 Aaranis wrote:
But let's say your Marshal is dead or couldn't keep up, you ran out of CP, and the Dragoons are on their own, they do 16 hits on average (because it's 0/6 + 0/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 3/6 = 6/6 so 16 hits). And when you want to actually hurt something in these conditions they do less damage than Bots in the same conditions...

Skitarii Marshals can grant buffs like cover in the open and fight first regardless of the distance between them and Dragoons. In fact, in this area, it's Robots that have the disadvantage. You need to keep a Dominus within 6" and a Datasmith within 3" just to get reroll 1s...

--

 Vineheart01 wrote:
anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol

Yes. I think 40 Skitarii in two Patrols is as few as you will see in a competitive list. Much more likely to see 45-60.

We're also a much faster and fightier army than before. Lots of movement tricks, most of our Canticles, Doctrinas, and WLTs are to help us get stuck in as early as possible.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol

Yes. I think 40 Skitarii in two Patrols is as few as you will see in a competitive list. Much more likely to see 45-60.

We're also a much faster and fightier army than before. Lots of movement tricks, most of our Canticles, Doctrinas, and WLTs are to help us get stuck in as early as possible.

I'll second this. I think +3 movement is one of our strongest Doctrinas. If you go first, Raiders effectively get 30" movement and can still charge. With that distance, you can charge the enemy board edge. Short of serious bubble wrapping, you can shut down the enemy guns, and at no opportunity cost to yourself. If you don't get first, then you don't pick +3" and you use your redeploy to move into cover instead.

My experience with skirting enemy obscuring terrain with Knights can be replicated with the Ironstriders too. You can get them moving 19" with the Dunestrider stratagem, and that'll let you get around a lot of terrain and get unexpected firing arcs. This new book is all about managing power spikes, and it's going to reward bold plays.

Is there an aura that gives vehicles +1 to hit, or is it a strategem?

Razerous wrote:
Is there an aura that gives vehicles +1 to hit, or is it a strategem?

An Enginseer can give 1 Vehicle +1 to Hit

2 vehicles if you spend 1 CP on a strat

What I'm most aggrieved about is that Kataphrons can't do actions. Why?!

Razerous wrote:
What I'm most aggrieved about is that Kataphrons can't do actions. Why?!

Their arms are too short.

But with the Techno-Archeologist you can give a unit of Kataphrons within 6" the Infantry keyword and the ability to make Actions if you really want it.

Razerous wrote:
What I'm most aggrieved about is that Kataphrons can't do actions. Why?!

Nearby Technoarcheologist can grant them that ability

Octovol wrote:

Razerous wrote:
What I'm most aggrieved about is that Kataphrons can't do actions. Why?!

Nearby Technoarcheologist can grant them that ability

Game changer.

I love the models, but am not fussed by canticles or DI. Plus I want to soup in AM tank commanders

Honestly, being part of Mars, and having a Marshal, makes Cantacles and Doctrina look really interesting. With the +1WS one, the +1S strat and a group of Vanguard charging in, they seem to be able to do a pretty decent job in melee after chucking a bunch of carbine shots into a unit first. Could be a great way to finish weakened units.

I made maybe a couple dozen lists this week. Here's what I got, best I can think of for each FW:

Mars: Heavy emphasis on Skitarii Core. No tricks, just lots of army-wide buffs.

Lucius: Ranger and Corpuscarii bombs. Very durable.

Stygies VIII: Forward deployed melee deathball supported by a ton of chickens

Metalica: Fast advancing army with lots of slows. Skitarii meatwall goes first, backed by a shooty knight and chickens.

Off the top, I think those lists all look good. Between them, I think Mars and Lucius look the strongest, but there's plenty of tweaking that only game experience can provide. I've got the most opinion about Metalica, of course.

Did I post here about the Relentless Wrath + Cold Eradication Knight Paladin I was considering? I eventually swung around to the Fury of the Keep and Blessed by Metalica for two reasons. Blessed by Metalica gives the Manipulus a little more to do (plus dramatically improves the Knight's survivability), and you can get the effect of Cold Eradication through Lockstep Advance if you need it. Relentless Wrath is definitely good, but Fury of the Keep gets significantly more benefit from the re-roll Canticle. The Canticle pushes Fury up to averaging a dead Plagueburst Crawler or Redemptor Dreadnought, which is tremendous. By the way, you didn't pay for Knight of the Iron Cog on that Crusader.

As a general note, I realized I'm uncomfortable playing lists without some small squads for actions. In particular, your Lucius and Metalica lists may run into awkward situations for secondaries, since they can't quite fall back on Scramblers.

I've taken my game experience at 1500 and I've figured out my 2000pt list. For anyone curious:I realized I needed to be more flexible for achieving secondaries. I think the Knights could conceivably score While We Stand in some match-ups. I also realized I probably won't get to dump CP into a squad of 10 Infiltrators, so they're better off being flexible for actions. The 5 Rangers are straight up there for actions, and potentially be an ObSec missile with March to War.

I'm not totally sure about the double Dunecrawlers, but I like their math against cheap vehicle spam like Raiders and that new Necron list. They add autocannons to compliment my otherwise Meltagun based anti-tank. Maybe trading one for another Fusilave is better depending on the meta.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Lucius: Ranger and Corpuscarii bombs. Very durable.

That Lucius list seems dope .

I'm still working on my 2k Mars list, with some caution about points values, here's the current build;



I'm thinking it's a decent list, but the points values are still unsure.

My tactics; rangers hold backfield objectives and snipe characters with Mars reroll. Ironstriders go for flanking objectives and locate new firing angles. Vanguard act as a screens for vehicles, while moving to midfield.

- Belisarius cawl gives full reroll to kastellan robots
- datasmith gives kastellan robots 'core'keyword
- tech-priest (magi) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots exploding 6s
- tech-priest (artisans) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots +1 S

Turn 1: doctrine protector (+1bs/-1ws), canticle shroudpsalm (+1sv)
Turn 2: doctrine bulwark (+1sv/-3mv), canticle benediction (reroll one hit/wound/dmg)
Turn 3-4: no doctrine, canticle (melee buffs)
Turn 5: no doctrine, canticle (roll extra d6 for advance/charge, discard lowest)

I've been thinking of a list for myself to try, this should come to 1985 (based on the reddit spreadsheet)

Brigade - Mars

HQ
Dominus
Engineseer
Marshal

Troops
Vanguard (5) x3
Rangers (5) x3

Elites
Infiltrators (5) x2
Ruststalkers (5)

Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)

Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2

Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2

This will let me test a huge range of stuff and still have a list that LOOKS like an army. I never played Mars in 8th as I disliked their static style. I'm hoping for big things with them in 9th.

If needed I can drop the extra stubbers on crawlers for holy orders, I'll test this out first I think.

Err, if I remember correctly, a Brigade needs 3 HQ, 6 troops, and also 3 elites, 3 FA and 3 heavy support. So, I think you are abit short.

You can run a Battalion fine with your list. Unless I misunderstand what your list consists of. Ah sorry, I did misunderstand. You have 4 heavy support instead of two. lol Sorry.