Ruststalkers are going up to AP-2 on Razors and AP-3 on Blades. I wonder what that means for the Chordclaws and the mortal wound rule. Previously, the Chordclaw's additional mortal wounds, and multiwounds against Marines, pushed them ahead in basically all cases. An additional APand strength on Razors probably means they're stronger except against high invulns. It may be the case that Chordclaws are still the pick despite being worse in most cases; they'll likely be sufficient to meet the need while also being better in key match-ups against invulns.
They're already a staple of my army, serving principally as cheap, mobile wounds for scoring secondaries. Circuitous Assassins lets them score Scramblers and Teleport Homers on turn 1, and trying to prevent that can really mess with an opponent's deployment plans.
What's more, I was crazy enough to go all-in on them as an actual assault unit: Expansionist Forgeworld for AP-1, supported by a Magos Manipulus with Omniscient Mask, and charging alongside Vanguard to actually use that T-1. They already were spewing enough mortals to chew through tough targets. If the cost remains similar, and they retain their mortals, then they're just getting ~66% damage increase. I think my math with buffs was ~10 average wounds to Primaris, which is roughly 50% chance to wipe a unit in one turn; 16 average wounds makes that 90%+ to wipe Marines holding an objective.
What do we think about Torsion now being 48" range and D3+3 damage?
Also plasma culverins now only dealing 1MW on a 1 when overcharging is nice but still doesn't make plasma worth taking in 9th without significant external buffs imo.
I'm on the fence about the galvanic rifle change, it sort incentivises us yet to again to sit back like a pill box and fire. Really boring.
Torsion cannons are a poor mans lascannon now. On durable troop units that can melee at least a bit.
Whats not do like? Its a downright upgrade that kills Gravis in one wound.
Plasma is worth it as long as there's stuff that is not a 3+ save or has higher toughness. Then plasma wins out.. thats plenty of reason for me, although the rando shots can always screw you over.
Galvanic Rifle change is fantastic. Rangers were always a sitting bull unit and now are more than double as effective at ranges 15"+. The range also meshes with the new Arc Rifle, although that one now is a toss up for vanguard as well. More options in the end for everyone!
really curious what the heavy arc rifles are now, since the base one has its profile now (flat3 instead of D6 damage, autowound on 4+ though so i'll take it)
Vineheart01 wrote: really curious what the heavy arc rifles are now, since the base one has its profile now (flat3 instead of D6 damage, autowound on 4+ though so i'll take it)
They could make Rangers ignore hit penalties, atm they don't have any special rule whilst Vanguard do and its not like there isnt already a Troop unit in the game that already ignores to Hit modifiers, Incursors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leucaruth wrote: Im wondering about hoplites and their Arc Lances... if they are upgrading all arc weapons, will they change too?
It would make them really good in combat and shooting, both against elite units and vehicles in general
I hope they do, have FWFAQ any of the compendium stuff this edition for Space Marines, Necrons and Deathguard? I know Dark Eldar are waiting for the Reaper and Tantalus to get a FAQ.
im curious what they will do with the Infiltraitors. they are a bit of a bad unit at the moment, they dont really have a niche or purpose ever since Engine War let Ruststalkers do infiltration moves.
Given they arent changing the models, we're stuck with the current weapon options, so unless they do something really funky with the flechette blaster & stubcarbine, its really a question of what special rules they may add to them to give them a purpose. Im tempted to say they'll take away the ruststalker infil strat, and maybe give the infiltraitors a "always in cover" rule or strat to boost survivability(fluff it as their "screw with senses feild" working to cloak them).
xerxeskingofking wrote: im curious what they will do with the Infiltraitors. they are a bit of a bad unit at the moment, they dont really have a niche or purpose ever since Engine War let Ruststalkers do infiltration moves.
To start, they need a -1 to hit aura for shooting and melee, and not something useless like 6-8". Maybe within 12"?
I'm not optimistic about taser goads, they're getting a slight buff yes but there's no way we're going back to modifiable hit roll triggers as GW just seems to be done with that as a game mechanic even outside of taser weapons specifically, and without that they aren't doing anything a power sword won't do better. Power swords can work as we have S4 to start with, but they're obviously competing with Ruststalkers in that loadout while not having as many attacks and probably lacking whatever MW dealing special rules they'll have as well.
I think what I really need from this edition is for GW to break out Concealed Positions deployment to the broader meta, as in pre-first battle round mid-field deployment, instead of continuing to lump units that set up in such a manner in previous editions into the "Deepstrike" deployment pile. Infiltrators would be the #1 candidate in our army to get such a deployment rule.
xerxeskingofking wrote: im curious what they will do with the Infiltraitors. they are a bit of a bad unit at the moment, they dont really have a niche or purpose ever since Engine War let Ruststalkers do infiltration moves.
Given they arent changing the models, we're stuck with the current weapon options, so unless they do something really funky with the flechette blaster & stubcarbine, its really a question of what special rules they may add to them to give them a purpose. Im tempted to say they'll take away the ruststalker infil strat, and maybe give the infiltraitors a "always in cover" rule or strat to boost survivability(fluff it as their "screw with senses feild" working to cloak them).
I think Infiltrators might get a situational fight last ability like Incubi. Currently their aura is just bad, and in the past it actually made people fight worse. This would give our army access to fight last like every other army that has been released for 9th (excluding supplements)
well, apparently the cover art (and thus the contents) of our combat patrol box have been leaked online. I heard about it thought Auspex Tactics (link to the youtube video here)
assuming it retails at the same price as other combat patrols, is about a 30% reduction on separate purchases, and about 400ish points worth, so a bit less than the standard 500 points (proof once more that the admech have a poor pounds to points ratio).
xerxeskingofking wrote: well, apparently the cover art (and thus the contents) of our combat patrol box have been leaked online. I heard about it thought Auspex Tactics (link to the youtube video here)
assuming it retails at the same price as other combat patrols, is about a 30% reduction on separate purchases, and about 400ish points worth, so a bit less than the standard 500 points (proof once more that the admech have a poor pounds to points ratio).
what are your thoughts on this?
I heard this so many times. We are getting point increases 100%. We are at a higher tier and points efficiency in general. A lot of bad weapons got huge buffs, but otherwise we get buffs too. We'll most likely see an addition of 1-2 army wide rules. Surprisingly the Engineseer stays an HQ, with the upcoming marshal he has to have a different niche that isnt just cheap HQ. Overall good for new players, not so for veterans. On the long run that might mean an increase in popularity for admech, which means we get more releases.
I heard this so many times. We are getting point increases 100%. We are at a higher tier and points efficiency in general. A lot of bad weapons got huge buffs, but otherwise we get buffs too. We'll most likely see an addition of 1-2 army wide rules. Surprisingly the Engineseer stays an HQ, with the upcoming marshal he has to have a different niche that isnt just cheap HQ. Overall good for new players, not so for veterans. On the long run that might mean an increase in popularity for admech, which means we get more releases.
hmm, that does make some sense, but a 10-20% increase in our base troops? seems kinda steep, honestly. Im not saying that we are bad, or inefficient on a point for point basis, just that 100 points of admech cost more than 100 points of many other armies. Im not complianing if that means i can build up my army for cheaper, but i hope it doesnt go overboard and push us too far down the tier listings.
Im guessing they went with the enginseer as hes kinda our default "cheap LT" choice, and most of the other combat patrol boxes have had a LT or other "secondary" HQ type (librarian/chaplain) rather than a Captain/capt equivalent. Also it makes sense if GW thinks they can get more money by selling the Dominus or the new Marshal separately. Im guessing the marshal has skitarii focused buffs and the Enginseer more robot/vehicle focused buffs.
I heard this so many times. We are getting point increases 100%. We are at a higher tier and points efficiency in general. A lot of bad weapons got huge buffs, but otherwise we get buffs too. We'll most likely see an addition of 1-2 army wide rules. Surprisingly the Engineseer stays an HQ, with the upcoming marshal he has to have a different niche that isnt just cheap HQ. Overall good for new players, not so for veterans. On the long run that might mean an increase in popularity for admech, which means we get more releases.
hmm, that does make some sense, but a 10-20% increase in our base troops? seems kinda steep, honestly. Im not saying that we are bad, or inefficient on a point for point basis, just that 100 points of admech cost more than 100 points of many other armies. Im not complianing if that means i can build up my army for cheaper, but i hope it doesnt go overboard and push us too far down the tier listings.
Im guessing they went with the enginseer as hes kinda our default "cheap LT" choice, and most of the other combat patrol boxes have had a LT or other "secondary" HQ type (librarian/chaplain) rather than a Captain/capt equivalent. Also it makes sense if GW thinks they can get more money by selling the Dominus or the new Marshal separately. Im guessing the marshal has skitarii focused buffs and the Enginseer more robot/vehicle focused buffs.
Our 8th edition codex gutted us which resulted in up to 50% points decreases, so we are still under the former norm.
I wouldnt call engineseers second in command nor LTs, they are relic caddies at best.
Troops do not a price increase at all.
9 pts already feels to much fo skitarii. They are wet noodles and hit as such. Just today I had a game with 40 skitarii against an almost all infantry SoB army at 1500. I conceded after T2.
Skitarii litterally do nothing and might as well be guardsman most of the time.
A price increase? For what? The ability to shoot 2 shots at 30", yet have -1 to hit if you're forced to move?
Price increases definately are not in the book for me, especially considering how killy e.g. drukhari are now and how comparatively low durability our units are. Dunerider chassis still has no invuln. Everything is, in most cases, a 5++.
Thairne wrote: Troops do not a price increase at all.
9 pts already feels to much fo skitarii. They are wet noodles and hit as such. Just today I had a game with 40 skitarii against an almost all infantry SoB army at 1500. I conceded after T2.
Skitarii litterally do nothing and might as well be guardsman most of the time.
A price increase? For what? The ability to shoot 2 shots at 30", yet have -1 to hit if you're forced to move?
Price increases definately are not in the book for me, especially considering how killy e.g. drukhari are now and how comparatively low durability our units are. Dunerider chassis still has no invuln. Everything is, in most cases, a 5++.
Thats why i agree with Thairne that the troops arent going up.
2 shots at 30" S4 AP1 (without the potential AP2 either) with heavy penalties isnt gamebreaking. Its good enough where they actually do something outside the 2-3 special weapons theyre toting around.
That is ALL i believe isnt going up though. No comment on Vanguard since we dont know any leaks about them, but the other stuff we do know is simply too big a boost to not get a couple points bumped.
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats why i agree with Thairne that the troops arent going up.
2 shots at 30" S4 AP1 (without the potential AP2 either) with heavy penalties isnt gamebreaking. Its good enough where they actually do something outside the 2-3 special weapons theyre toting around.
That is ALL i believe isnt going up though. No comment on Vanguard since we dont know any leaks about them, but the other stuff we do know is simply too big a boost to not get a couple points bumped.
Kataprhon weapons might get some adjustments, but even they i think are expensive compared to marines. If anything rangers and vanguard should go down in pts, not up. A Kabalite warrior has an identical profile to a ranger/vanguard a better standard weapon and more bonuses and support to be better than either for 8ppm.
I don't know why everyone thinks improvements mean points increases, I guess because historically thats been the way? I haven't looked into it specifically but both DE and DG 9th ed codexes nothing really changed in points, did it? Maybe even points decrease? certainly, troops' costs didn't change, and as far as I can see weapons are the same as well. I think this is mainly because the last blanket assignment of 5 or 10pts for weapon options was heavy-handed and made most weapons too expensive so now with the upgrades the weapons are actually more worth it.
I'm so frustrated with the pushing of the Enginseer tbh, it's so not fitting for the army to have a human in power army running things. They're essentially a mechanic, that's all, they're humans and super-humans (in the case of Tech-marines) taught to maintain specialised vehicles/equipment so the more senior, respected, Tech-priests can focus on the pursuit of that precious knowledge. Imagine a garage where the mechanics run the place while the foreman and managers just don't really give a crap or get involved to improve things. Abusive managers, which would actually be ironically expected of them lol. That's where we're at right now.
Having said that if the RR1 aura was moved from Dominus to Enginseer and they gave us something worthwhile on Dominus/Manipulus then at least the rules better fit the secondary leadership role they got shoehorned into. Doesn't stop me hating that they're not an admech model though
Vineheart01 wrote: Thats why i agree with Thairne that the troops arent going up.
2 shots at 30" S4 AP1 (without the potential AP2 either) with heavy penalties isnt gamebreaking. Its good enough where they actually do something outside the 2-3 special weapons theyre toting around.
That is ALL i believe isnt going up though. No comment on Vanguard since we dont know any leaks about them, but the other stuff we do know is simply too big a boost to not get a couple points bumped.
We have also dont have the full picture, like no where near close really. Rangers could have a special rule bolted on like a premove, ignoring negatives, raider style sniping. Rad Satuation could also increase to 3" range and Radium Carbines getting enhanced. But I dont think that warrants a pts increase. Dogmas, warlord traits and characters abilities would also make or break a lot of our units. Rangers could be absolutely monsters if the codex supports them properly and thats all I can hope for.
would they actually be worth that?
I mean Heavy 2 5 -1 1 looks nice for 9 pts... Definately beats out Fire Warriors, but only by-1 AP and if you get the canticle.
Well ok and 1 better BS.
Thairne wrote: would they actually be worth that?
I mean Heavy 2 5 -1 1 looks nice for 9 pts... Definately beats out Fire Warriors, but only by-1 AP and if you get the canticle.
Well ok and 1 better BS.
But us that actually spammable?
BS3 and Cawl rerolls puts them on an entirely different plane, but Fire Warriors are 30" Rapid Fire 1 (Rifle) or 18" Assault 2 (Carbine), so Rangers have 12-15" more range.
Yeah if you add 270 pts to it You gotta give that to the Tau too then, otherwise its a bit shrewd And yes, while the new fully buffed profile under optimal circumstances is probaby the best troop weapon in the game - is that enough reason to spam it tho?
Because it takes, with Cawl and the canticle, 17 rangers (153 pts) to kill 5 MEQ out of cover or 25,5 rangers (230 pts) if the MEQ are in cover. Thats a lot of points.. not even considering gravis here. And thats not very efficient.
Against T3 the S increase doesnt matter and the -1 AP most of the time doesnt either since harlequins e.g. have an invul to fall back to anyway. Dunno about Drukhari, but all in all their shooting is still inefficient, points wise. Especially considering how easy they keel over themselves, how immobile they are and what other options we have.
Olthannon wrote: I'd like the new codex to mean that you don't have to pick Cawl if you want to get anywhere.
If Master Archon/Succubus/Haemonculus is anything to go by we might get an Arch Magos upgrade option, I'm never a fan of named characters with no generic equivalent. Especially when they're tied to faction keywords. Named versions should provide the same fundamental battlefield role but offer flavourful alternative that suits the faction.
Thairne wrote: Yeah if you add 270 pts to it You gotta give that to the Tau too then, otherwise its a bit shrewd
Well, right now, you're going to take Cawl if you're going Mars anyway. Just like you're going to take Shadowsun if you play Tau. The difference is that Shadowsun does not benefit Fire Warriors nearly as much as Cawl just incidentally benefits Rangers by just existing.
Thairne wrote: And yes, while the new fully buffed profile under optimal circumstances is probaby the best troop weapon in the game - is that enough reason to spam it tho?
Uh... yes? Lol. They're cheap, they are efficient, they have ObSec... what is not to love? Every army that has efficient troop choices seems to spam them. Why would you expect us to be different?
Thairne wrote: Because it takes, with Cawl and the canticle, 17 rangers (153 pts) to kill 5 MEQ out of cover or 25,5 rangers (230 pts) if the MEQ are in cover. Thats a lot of points.. not even considering gravis here. And thats not very efficient.
Against T3 the S increase doesnt matter and the -1 AP most of the time doesnt either since harlequins e.g. have an invul to fall back to anyway. Dunno about Drukhari, but all in all their shooting is still inefficient, points wise. Especially considering how easy they keel over themselves, how immobile they are and what other options we have.
Again, Cawl is a sunk cost. And I don't think spamming Rangers would be efficient to kill Marines. Better to just hold ground with lots of MSUs and let your planes and heavy guns do the work for you. Which is the meta as of this very moment anyway. Many popular lists seem to gravitate toward spamming infantry and/or planes.
They are not that durable tho. Compared to the almighty MEQ, you pay the same pts per wound, but at a worse s+ and worse T.
Maybe I've my glasses coloured in anti-skitarii layers since my last game where spamming skitarii led to a T2 defeat..:
What do you consider "spamming" though? Taking MSU rangers as troops to fulfill batt/brig - thats naturally a good thing because they are the most efficient troops in firepower. But if you spam them, which for me means like.. 30 or more, I feel it detriments heavily from everything else because they do not hold your back objective if you dont give the opponent with actual teeth to worry about.
It would depend on the rules. My guess is 6-12 units of 5. But who knows? Maybe they have have incentives for units of 10.
I don't think MEQs are actually that popular though. And instead of comparing Skitarii to MEQS, why not another infantry unit like Necron Warriors? They are T4 and have the Reanimation gimmick, but strictly inferior guns.
Other than some fluffmongers i dont know a single marine player that brings more than the absolute minimum troop-grade marines, with the new heavy intercessors being the only exception and even then its like 1 more squad than you absolutely need to play. Except when a certain doctrine is active they dont really do anything anyway, 5-10 bolters is not threatening at all at their price level. They just spam the more elite ones, which cannot compare to any trooper let alone ours.
So comparing anything to a MEQ is kinda pointless (posterchild syndrome aside as well)
Well, I just bow to your far, far superior experience and skill and take what you say as truth.
I can't imagine it working out, but thats probably me not playing right/not seeing the things in the right way/building bad lists. So far I'm just avoiding skitarii if I can because they dont kill stuff, they dont defend stuff, they cant screen stuff and obj sec doesnt matter if you're dead anyway.
Come to think of it, I'm currently planning to basically get close to completion of my admech army and have a new 1500 pts tac list I'm building towards. Not hyper competetive, but something I feel has enough teeth to not be pushed over by most non-tourney-netlists you'd see.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 11CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++
Forge World Choice . Forge World: Stygies VIII
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Dominus: Macrostubber, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Volkite Blaster, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Engine War): Divinations of the Magos
Kastelan Robots . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon
+ Dedicated Transport +
Skorpius Dunerider
Skorpius Dunerider
Not optimal, but at 1500pts I think I have all that I need with this. Assault package, non-LOS shooting, anti tank, anti infantry, screening in form of the Phrons...
2k would see more priests, a fusilave, Destroyers instead of vanguard and more Balistarii added - or a switch to Mars with Cawl for the real pain.
Skitarii do sorta suck right now, though they are used in Stygies/Lucius infantry spam lists. I think Hertel's recent list was basically three units of Vanguard, one of Corpuscarii, and two of Fulgurites.
And really, I expect things to change with the new codex. I am just saying that if nothing changes, and they only ADD to Skitarii capability, then spamming Ranger MSUs might be a thing. The infantry in plenty of armies have gotten huge buffs. (But who knows? Maybe Kataphrons or Electro-Priests will get even bigger buffs.)
I tried a 1000 pts game on Sunday with 35 skitarii and 10 breachers. end of t2 I was way ahead however due to the immense lack of durability skitarii have I was tabled on t4 and had about half the points of my opponent. This was a friendly game to test out how a ObSec heavy list would play against a regular list.
They both have 3 attacks now too and up to movement of 6". The breacher melee weapons are immense too, essentially arc claw is a power sword and hydraulic claw a thunder hammer!?
6" on phosphor blaster too. it's a nice overall buff. Plasma is still plasma, Grav is still grav. Torsion is still a long range melta-lite. Just need to see what support rules they get now.
Its also interesting that all the arc ranged weapons have a more standardised profile now. All of them seem to be str 6 ap -2.
The Heavy arc is 2 dmg base now vs the D3 of the arc rifle, but that works as it's an average of the old D3. I just wonder what it gets for it's vehicle dmg upgrade. The arc rifle being D3 base and 3 dmg against vehicles means the heavy version starting at flat 2 dmg has no dice roll to max out on. Hopefully it's 2+D6, 2 + D3 feels odd and underwhleming compared to the arc rifle. Even if it went to flat 4, that would be good, but doesnt feel like much of an improvement over the arc rifle.
Flat 6...now thats the dream right there. Or maybe it's 2 + D3 MW? Hmm.
Octovol wrote: Its also interesting that all the arc ranged weapons have a more standardised profile now. All of them seem to be str 6 ap -2.
The Heavy arc is 2 dmg base now vs the D3 of the arc rifle, but that works as it's an average of the old D3. I just wonder what it gets for it's vehicle dmg upgrade. The arc rifle being D3 base and 3 dmg against vehicles means the heavy version starting at flat 2 dmg has no dice roll to max out on. Hopefully it's 2+D6, 2 + D3 feels odd and underwhleming compared to the arc rifle. Even if it went to flat 4, that would be good, but doesnt feel like much of an improvement over the arc rifle.
Flat 6...now thats the dream right there. Or maybe it's 2 + D3 MW? Hmm.
I wonder if the Arc weapons will retain their mortal wounds on 6 to wound, but in the case of the heavy arc rifle, they may just have it double its damage to 4 against vehicles.
Aaranis wrote: Their profiles were previewed a few months ago:
Spoiler:
I don't remember Arc Weapons dealing MWs on 6s ?
They didn't, they never have. Maybe they're confusing transonic weapons? We're obviously missing a lot of rules text from these datasheets which is key to exactly how useful they'll be a long with what army rules they'll interact with.
Flat 4 dmg on Heavy arc vs vehicles i'm not super keen on, but it does kinda follow thats it's the average on a D6dmg roll so seems like it would be quite likely. Plus that keeps the pts cost down vs the new lascannons and Torsion.
Two Torsion/HAR breachers with a 2+ save vs 1 chicken (3+ save) with a twin cognis lascannon is actually a pretty tough decision at this point. The twin cognis autocannon however is an awesome crowd thinner, 12 autocannon shots almost makes robots obsolete imo. I do hope they buff robots enough in the right places.
As long as they make them worthwhile in CC I'm happy, been playing 4 of them with Fists and Flamers and while they were always useful, there was probably better ways to play the same role.
Aaranis wrote: As long as they make them worthwhile in CC I'm happy, been playing 4 of them with Fists and Flamers and while they were always useful, there was probably better ways to play the same role.
It's gonna have to be something special to make them worthwhile in CC, Breachers are now a much better choice. Same attacks, better save, same damage, 1 less ap. OR less damage, same AP but always wound vehicles on a 4+ and probably 2-3 dmg with exploding 5s to hit lol
We'd need Kastellan fists to do double the dmg, more ap or double the number of attacks to even come close to being better lol
Especially when you consider the breacher also gets Either. Torsion cannon or heavy arc rifle as well as all that, both of which i'd take over robots current HPB output. I'd take cognis auto cannon ballistarii for my WoM spam now, for 20pts more than a robot you currently get 12 assault autocannon shots they can fire at full BS in overwatch and with +1 to wound. Robots need some serious love after the teasers we've seen.
Edit: got a little overexcited and wrongly assumed the cognis autocannon was twin at 12 when it's twin at 6 lol
I'm going a bit stir-crazy waiting for the book. I'm sitting on a couple unassembled kits waiting to see which way the wind blows.
I'd really love to use my Infiltrators again, since they're modeled after the Skitarii Praetorians from the novel Titanicus, which inspired the army in the first place. The fact that we heard about Ruststalkers but not Infiltrators worries me a little. I have a creeping feeling that this is a monkey's paw situation where Infiltrators become the backbone of a Dark Eldar-like dominance and I'll be a jerk for fielding them.
It's weird though: at what price are they worth running again? When you compare them to Reivers and Mandrakes, it looks like GW really values that Power Sword at 5 points per model. I think to be competitive (without changing any stats), they'd have to be brought in line with Mandrakes at 15ish points. I'd even like the Flechette/Taser to be a point cheaper. I'd play them as-is at 18 points, though I wouldn't like it.
DarkHound wrote: I'm going a bit stir-crazy waiting for the book. I'm sitting on a couple unassembled kits waiting to see which way the wind blows.
I'd really love to use my Infiltrators again, since they're modeled after the Skitarii Praetorians from the novel Titanicus, which inspired the army in the first place. The fact that we heard about Ruststalkers but not Infiltrators worries me a little. I have a creeping feeling that this is a monkey's paw situation where Infiltrators become the backbone of a Dark Eldar-like dominance and I'll be a jerk for fielding them.
It's weird though: at what price are they worth running again? When you compare them to Reivers and Mandrakes, it looks like GW really values that Power Sword at 5 points per model. I think to be competitive (without changing any stats), they'd have to be brought in line with Mandrakes at 15ish points. I'd even like the Flechette/Taser to be a point cheaper. I'd play them as-is at 18 points, though I wouldn't like it.
I dont think i'd take them at all at the moment regardless of points, unless I really liked the models and it was for thematic purposes. Their rules are just not good enough. Skystalkers do their shooting with the same deep strike but with the benefit of awesome bombs as well. Ruststalkers, corpuscarii, Sterylizors all are better in melee with much more utility.
I could see Infiltrators getting that 3rd attack back, same as Destroyers got that extra one. What really needs to change is that aura. And if they could be deployed forward like scouts that would at least give them some utility we dont have elsewhere.
Aaranis wrote: Looks like the Belleros is losing one point of Strength:
Spoiler:
So I guess their design philosophy for these weapons is they're only meant to take out chaff hidden in ruins or something? Feels like the only consideration that would result in a lowering of str on a weapon like this.
I'm more disappointed the Dunerider didn't go up to T7 to match the disinitigrator. If we look at the DE Raider the Dunerider needs to drop in points considerably.
Everything needs to drop in points significantly if we compare it to broken undercosted stuff like the raider.
The belleros isnt meant for chaff anymore according to GW as its gotten worse against T3, now its primarily anti T4 multiwound targets without much armor.
However as its our only los ignoring weapon, and the purpose of los ignoring weapons generally being anti glasscannons and units holding objectives behind cover, its gotten considerably worse as its mostly T3 you want to shoot at.
So a concerning thought - what happens if almost all our vehicles do not get the CORE keyword and therefore are excempt from rerolls?
A Dominus would be nigh worthless since he could basically buff Skitarii or Kataphrons.
While for the later it would be neat, it feels like the Dominus would be pretty suboptimal. The Manipulus would overtake him significantly, reducing us to basically 1 and a half HQ... again.
What that means for Cawl is another thing tho...
But what would that mean for our tanks? Kastelans without any access to rerolls sans the strats, assuming they stay?
Onagers with their RND shots on the neutron, hitting on 3s with no RR?
Disintegrators with their weakend belleros?
And not to mention las and AC chickens?
Feels like that would be a very significant nerf to the entire army.. making vehicles not CORE in a faction that is basically about machines seems odd. It could be a net loss of 16-33% of our shooting efficiency... thats not something a +1 sv can catch up.
Core was meant to limit lists that go against the fluff and the way GW wants an army to play, main offender being the space marine captain buffing their vehicles ( lmao almost everything else has core including dreadnoughts).
Admech wont have any core keyword. It wouldnt make sense for many reasons. First of all our Techpriests are one of the few that should be able to buff vehicles and weve got enough keywords that separate our factions and rules interplay as is. Cybernetica, Vehicles, Infantry, Skitarii, Cult, Tech-priest.
Your argument makes sense to me. It would be unnecessary and against the fluff... I mean I could see edge cases like Kastelan being excluded but for the sole purpose of having a use for Datasmiths.
Lets hope they dont, but is there a 9th that does not make use of CORE? All the SM ones do, naturally, Necrons do, Drukhari do, DG do, Sisters will.... I dont see them sparing us the CORE nerf.
I am quite worried right now that that change alone might break the army.
I could see however bringing in the Marshal for SKITARII units and using TPs for all other units.
How did we get to being so worried that our vehicles won't get re-rolls? 8th-9th is about increasing output and offering MORE options for different play styles, making less useful units more useful.
I guess if vehicles didn't get as many options for re-rolls but our infantry became more lethal, both melee and shooting, then that balances out and overall we just become better at everything.
Lets be honest here, robots and kataphrons aside, every single other unit we have is either hitting on 2s or re-rolling everything at the moment. We have virtually no trouble hitting things, our struggles come in battlefield options and flexibility. Even if all our vehicles lost re-rolls that only hits robots, everything else still has enough options to still hit on 2s regardless.
I've seen enough batreps of DE to have an understanding that facing them now is just like facing them in 8th, they die real easy and can get to where they need to be to get their primary and secondaries. That hasn't changed. What has changed, abusive rules-loopholes aside, is that now once they get to you they can actually do some damage like they were always supposed to.
Our challenge has never been killing them, we can do that easy. What we struggle with is overcoming their oppressive battlefield positioning. You really gotta be smart about which targets you kill. We already kill them easy with our 8th stuff and we're set to be even more lethal and damaging in 9th? Yeah killing them is not the issue.
Thairne wrote: So a concerning thought - what happens if almost all our vehicles do not get the CORE keyword and therefore are excempt from rerolls?
A Dominus would be nigh worthless since he could basically buff Skitarii or Kataphrons.
While for the later it would be neat, it feels like the Dominus would be pretty suboptimal. The Manipulus would overtake him significantly, reducing us to basically 1 and a half HQ... again.
What that means for Cawl is another thing tho...
But what would that mean for our tanks? Kastelans without any access to rerolls sans the strats, assuming they stay?
Onagers with their RND shots on the neutron, hitting on 3s with no RR?
Disintegrators with their weakend belleros?
And not to mention las and AC chickens?
Feels like that would be a very significant nerf to the entire army.. making vehicles not CORE in a faction that is basically about machines seems odd. It could be a net loss of 16-33% of our shooting efficiency... thats not something a +1 sv can catch up.
Maybe Dominus do more that just reroll 1s to hit in shooting like they should do? He can mess around with Machine Spirits in the lore yet hes a worse Captain/Canoness
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Thairne wrote: Your argument makes sense to me. It would be unnecessary and against the fluff... I mean I could see edge cases like Kastelan being excluded but for the sole purpose of having a use for Datasmiths.
Lets hope they dont, but is there a 9th that does not make use of CORE? All the SM ones do, naturally, Necrons do, Drukhari do, DG do, Sisters will.... I dont see them sparing us the CORE nerf.
I am quite worried right now that that change alone might break the army.
I could see however bringing in the Marshal for SKITARII units and using TPs for all other units.
It think some vehicles will be core, Ballistarii/Dragoons and Onagers. Onagers have always been described as the backbone workhorse of the army where data is collected and beamed back into orbit and data from the fleet is sent back down and distributed by the Onager. Seems pretty key to the Admech war machine.
only reason im worried about vehicles not getting rerolls is it falls in line with other armies, even though it makes no sense for ours.
Admech are THE vehicle army, to the point you could argue a lot of our "infantry" are vehicles.
Fully expect something really dumb involving core to mess with us though. That mechanic feels like it should not have been anywhere except on Marines, sicne their codex is so massive. It irritates the crap out of me as necrons.
Glad they've at least added SOME flavour back into the army! Should be at least a couple of articles this week maybe, one for the marshall and one for what doctrinas are, maybe one of those will include a preview to what they're doing with canticles or dogmas.
Also looks like we're set to see some pts increase based on the PL they estimate the combat patrol at. They say it's 20PL, but the models in there at the moment only amount to 18. My money ios on an improved enginseer and I guess it's probably expected that kataphrons would go up given the number of improvements we've already seen. I guess the enginseer could stay the same useless 2PL and the increase could be on our troops across the board...not looking forward to that, havent see anything in the weapons and datasheets so far to indicate rangers would be due a pts increase.
Wow, lots of stuff to get into here. Some thoughts:
- Looks like Mars is getting the new Master Artisans ability (reroll one hit roll) instead of double canticles and Skitarii apparently don't come with Canticles. I guess either they get nothing or Doctrina Imperatives like others have mentioned before? They also capped WoM to 6 MWs, as expected.
- Lucius is pretty interesting, basically gives All is Dust to the army (except the moving and shooting Heavy weapons part of it) and additional range.
- Like the Agripinaa strat more than the old one. Up to 2 T6 Kataphron units sounds pretty juicy. The relic also seems to have gotten better as well. Don't really like the implication that Kataphrons aren't Core though. Hopefully they get something to make up for it if that's the case like Mindlock to give +1 BS/WS if they're near a tech priest.
- Stygies VIII I like, thought it would get nerfed harder than it actually did. Also seems to imply some Vehicles might get Core (Ironstriders? Kastelans?). Also looks like they brought back the old Clandestine Infiltration but it only works on Core Infantry. Maybe throw some Electropriests or Sicarians up field behind obscuring or out of LOS terrain?
- Ryza, holy crap. So instead of rerolling 1's to wound, they basically become Blood Angels with +1 to wound and adding to it +1 to charge? I like this a lot, we have a lot of good melee units that would love this (Dragoons, Electropriests, etc.). Plasma Specialists got nerfed as expected, basically becomes Weapons of the Dark Age which is fine by me, 3 damage plasma culverins/calivers is still pretty spicy.
- Looks like we're getting 4 primary forge worlds from the 3 that were in Engine War. Excited to see what they're about in the future.
An interesting thing I noticed is that a lot of the dogmas seem to combine things from the current holy order warlord traits and custom dogmas.
My theory on canticles is that it'll work like synapse in that you'll need to be within range of a tech priest to get it, but mars units get it regardless. That fits with their superiority complex
My guess is Canticles only comes on certain units and Mars just gives it to the ones that lack it. I'm sure all the Cult Mechanicus units will but maybe stuff like boats or onagers won't normally.
Madjob wrote: My guess is Canticles only comes on certain units and Mars just gives it to the ones that lack it. I'm sure all the Cult Mechanicus units will but maybe stuff like boats or onagers won't normally.
i retract my previous theory as someone on a Facebook page pointed out that this is potentially a move back towards 7th ed rules where Skitarii had doctrinas and cult mech units had canticles. So the mars dogma means that all Skitarii units also benefit from canticles as well as their doctrinas. So a variant on having double canticles. I guess you could say that only skitarii get double canticles instead of all units, so it's actually a bit of toning down of canticles for Mars. But we dont know how they work yet, also could be interesting if each FW gets a custom doctrina and canticle which would give us more options for swapping 'canticles' than we do now.
Glad they've at least added SOME flavour back into the army! Should be at least a couple of articles this week maybe, one for the marshall and one for what doctrinas are, maybe one of those will include a preview to what they're doing with canticles or dogmas.
Also looks like we're set to see some pts increase based on the PL they estimate the combat patrol at. They say it's 20PL, but the models in there at the moment only amount to 18. My money ios on an improved enginseer and I guess it's probably expected that kataphrons would go up given the number of improvements we've already seen. I guess the enginseer could stay the same useless 2PL and the increase could be on our troops across the board...not looking forward to that, havent see anything in the weapons and datasheets so far to indicate rangers would be due a pts increase.
This is all good stuff; the faction rules mostly keep the shape of the old rules and add to them. I feel like the big winners so far are Agripinaa, Ryza, and probably Mars depending on the canticles.
Metalica is also pretty interesting. Move and shoot heavy weapons matters a lot more since Rangers are Heavy 2 now. The "enemies within engagement range count as half strength" line is extremely enticing with Omnissiah's Exaltation (-1 to combat attrition tests for 1 CP). It'll very rarely come up, but it's great tool to have in your back pocket.
I'm interested to see how Canticles will play with Knight of the Iron Cog. That'll probably be the point of going Metalica, if it works well.
Metalica's strats from Sixty Dollar Book of This Was Not Playtested are so extremely good, and it's book strat is also the best they previewed, so it's hard to look beyond it IMO, even if the doctrine rules themselves may not be as good as some of the others.
Yeah, you know that strat didn't initially stand out, but I think you're right that it's actually the strongest one. You can run a Metalica Fusilave into the enemy and halve movement for 2 units, then turn off their auras and re-rolls. That's a lot of disruption.
So hey, maybe Metalica ends up strong too. Maybe Infiltrators will have more morale shenanigans that combine with the attrition tests and I'll get everything I ever wanted: my converted Skitarii Praetorians and combined arms with Knights.
So it seems Skitarii don't get Canticles, and Kataphrons are not Core. That may imply Skitarii get Doctrinas.
LOL. GW still trying to make Red Axe happen. I mean, at least it's not awful now, I guess?
And it seems GW really does not want us infiltrating vehicles. Fair enough...
I expected many of these nerfs. Can't say I'm pleased, but I would need to see Canticles and keywords before making sense of this. Also, we wanted diversity. That meant nerfing Mars. If all of the Forgeworld specific dogmas and stratagems are more average, and Canticles/Doctrina are excellent and accessible to all FWs, it balances out.
That said, Metalica with its extra rules looking good right now...
Is there any reason to treat a unit as under half strength other than forcing to flee on a 1 or 2 instead of just 1?
Personally, i never cause leadership checks at all unless i broke that threshold in the first place.
Vineheart01 wrote: Is there any reason to treat a unit as under half strength other than forcing to flee on a 1 or 2 instead of just 1?
Personally, i never cause leadership checks at all unless i broke that threshold in the first place.
Exactly, it is extremely niche, but your opponent will sometimes hit an unlucky 6 and you'll get an extra model or two to flee. A Ld7 unit only needs to lose 2 models to potentially drop several more from morale. It seems like something you don't plan around (unless Infiltrators are good).
Honestly, they should just do away with attrition or make it all-or-nothing. Lots of rules just waste time, and people forget to track it all the time.
Vineheart01 wrote: Is there any reason to treat a unit as under half strength other than forcing to flee on a 1 or 2 instead of just 1?
Personally, i never cause leadership checks at all unless i broke that threshold in the first place.
Exactly, it is extremely niche, but your opponent will sometimes hit an unlucky 6 and you'll get an extra model or two to flee. A Ld7 unit only needs to lose 2 models to potentially drop several more from morale. It seems like something you don't plan around (unless Infiltrators are good).
VERY niche indeed. Though honestly I'm leaning towards Graia since just ignoring morale entirely is great for 10 man Skitarii units.
Vineheart01 wrote: Is there any reason to treat a unit as under half strength other than forcing to flee on a 1 or 2 instead of just 1?
Personally, i never cause leadership checks at all unless i broke that threshold in the first place.
Exactly, it is extremely niche, but your opponent will sometimes hit an unlucky 6 and you'll get an extra model or two to flee. A Ld7 unit only needs to lose 2 models to potentially drop several more from morale. It seems like something you don't plan around (unless Infiltrators are good).
VERY niche indeed. Though honestly I'm leaning towards Graia since just ignoring morale entirely is great for 10 man Skitarii units.
You don't ignore it entirely, but you do limit your losses to maximum 1 model a turn from morale tests.
Suzuteo wrote: Honestly, they should just do away with attrition or make it all-or-nothing. Lots of rules just waste time, and people forget to track it all the time.
No, i am perfectly fine with how morale works right now.
Its dangerous enough to be a problem for most units, but the ones that the old morale rule (which was "simpler") completely freaking butchered can actually exist now. Nothing more frustrating than having someone kill literally 1 grot and i lose 4-5 more to morale.
Its a little slower than the old way for sure, but its whats needed to avoid completely screwing over horde units while barely if at all affecting elite units. It affects them all equally now, slightly more for horde since more dice being rolled always means more fails.
Well, there is also the oldest way where the unit falls back toward your own board edge until they can rally. That would be absolutely crippling in this (superior) objective-centric game. Hell, it was too powerful back then too so everyone was Fearless or otherwise Ld10.
Nah, I like this as middle ground and it's better than 8th edition's rule.
That too.
No idea how many times Marine players would 'forget' they still fall back, they just auto rally afterwords. If you went off the board edge you still ran away.
Which is why i was one of the few people that actually used tankshock commonly. The amount of times ive sent a squad of marines off the table because they were dumb enough to hug the backfield edge is comical lol.
Colonel Cross wrote: Just LOL at the article today. What a joke haha. You'd have thought with an extra month, they'd have come up with some decent articles for us.
This is standard fare for a preorder week though. Faction article, filler article, tongue-in-cheek article via Regimental Standard(which we already got two of to be honest), then another faction article, and rounding off with a modeling showcase or the like.
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Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i had to facepalm at that article lol.
"Five releases that changed how Admech do the thing!"
....literally the last 5 things we released!! Duh!!
I'd hoped they would have had six and included the Marshal.
But they didn't include the gent from Combat Arena/Escalation, which is amusing.
The Canticles of the Omnissiah might not sound like music to flesh-ears, but the warriors of the machine god love ‘em, and they belt them out in the midst of battle to fan the flames of their fervour. These chants grant special boons to any units that include the Canticles of the Omnissiah ability, like Servitors and Tech-Priests.
The dulcet tones of the Canticles just don’t cut it for the Skitarii, however, so a judicious Tech-Priest or Skitarii Marshal has to take a firmer hand. That’s where the Doctrina Imperatives come in. Think of these override subroutines like orders handed down to the troops, except they can’t even think about saying no.
They're chosen at the beginning of a battle round though, an awfully awkward time to issue orders imo. Especially if they are issued from an HQ model, what if they're in a vehicle? That's manipulus-levels of pain-in-the-ass all over again.
Though I guess when things affect your movement stat it has to be before movement.
The doctrina info could mean that the galvanic field on manipulus is gone, but they have special rules to either ignore deprecations or improve the range at which they can issue imperitives. Or the number of imperitives maybe.
Interesting indeed. I really hope the issuing of the imperitives isn't too awkward, we already have to deal with a negative modifier associated with receiving the buff without it being restrictive to issue them.
Wait...if the Skitarii keyword is all that's needed to receive an imperative...does that mean vehicles can have a 2+ save or 2+ BS? Before buffs!? And Mars ones can also re-roll one hit, wound and damage roll? So many questions now! Exciting.
Being chosen at the beginning of the battle round means you can reliably engage Bulwark against an enemy's first turn shooting. That's absolutely worth a trade-off for a little awkwardness with transports.
Mars definitely looks like one of the strongest factions now, and will certainly be the premier Skitarii faction. This also makes Metalica strong too as a split faction with Knights.
I have to assume Shroudpsalm got turned into Bulwark, which is why Kataphrons' base armour improved. I'll be interested to see what defensive canticle will exist. Anything that improves an invul will be exceptionally strong on Knights.
i wonder if that decision stemmed from how much necrons complain about if they go 2nd they have a full turn of missing a TON of defensive boosts, which can easily cost the game.
Battleround means that never happens, but it does make it wonky.
Vineheart01 wrote: i wonder if that decision stemmed from how much necrons complain about if they go 2nd they have a full turn of missing a TON of defensive boosts, which can easily cost the game.
Battleround means that never happens, but it does make it wonky.
It kinda reflects the times you choose canticles, so not really a change in mentality. And in 7th you chose both at the beginning of the battle round as well.
I'm still curious what they have planned for the datasmith. They're a cult unit so no imperatives to issue, there are so many things they could do. I'm still kind of in shock at the scope of the changes we've seen so far, other armies got improvements here or there, but ours, it's like they just threw most of it out and started again!
Mars is definitely looking like the meta forgeworld from just benediction alone. Much more of the codexes firepower is on the Skitarii side of things, and that's where you want something as potent as those rerolls. Not to mention - Mars already has an inherent hit reroll. So they get 2 hit rerolls, 1 wound reroll, and 1 damage reroll for each unit when benediction is up.
Ha, Lucius Infantry have a 2+ save against small arms fire when in cover and under the bulwark imperative. Thats gonna my arquebus very difficult to remove.
Hell, Balistarii have a 2+ save and ignore ap -1 as well while under this imperative.
Mars ones are even more powerful though...2+ save, re roll 2 hits, 1 wound and 1 dmg. Crap lol.
I wonder if shroudpsalm still exists as a canticle to add +1 to that 2+ save from Bullwark. Dragoons are hopefully still -1 to hit as well, makes them stupidly hard to take out.
Aaranis wrote: Ugh I just hope Mars won't be the no-brain go-to sub-faction again
I think the other subfactions like Agripinaa and Ryza have shown enough to be viable, and we still don't know about the custom FWs. That being said Skitarii getting Canticles and the extra hit reroll to go along with Benediction of the Omnissiah is pretty significant. For me, Mars is top 2 in my mind alongside Ryza, but a lot of that will be dependent on your army composition, not to mention we don't have all the rules yet.
Even if Cawl is unlocked from Mars (and we don't even know what he'll do in the new rules), I think Mars is a strong contender for #1. Ryza could be quite good too, it depends on what the other imperatives are like (Conqueror is obvious, but that leaves one other) and what our melee units look like once we see the full data sheets and points.
From what we've seen so far, I don't think Mars can be the no-brainer choice just because the other factions bring meaningfully different angles for advantage. Ryza pushes a melee angle, and our Fulgerites have been some of the best melee units in the game previously. Agripinaa pushes the Breachers, already a meta staple, harder than Mars. Lucius can easily be souped in for insanely tough ObSec Skitarii and teleportation. Metalica's extra supplement rules might push it to be a strong spot, and are obviously the best way to run Knights now.
The only ones that seem to lag behind are maybe Stygies and definitely Graia.
Holy crap, so skiitari are getting an Orders-type mechanic now?
Our rangers/vanguard can hit on 2s in shooting rofl....
Funny how I was talking about reasons why we would take full-sized Skitarii units earlier, and here we are.
Anyhow, Mars might just be the best Forge World again because of how ridiculous Benediction is for something like Dunecrawlers. Need to wait for more details though.
i just pray that these Docrina don't turn out to be similar in implementation to the Necron Command Protocols....I refuse to use them and don't know a single Necron player that even uses Command Protocols.
Lord Clinto wrote: i just pray that these Docrina don't turn out to be similar in implementation to the Necron Command Protocols....I refuse to use them and don't know a single Necron player that even uses Command Protocols.
Firstly, they won't because they're chosen in each command phase. Secondly, why on Earth wouldn't you use Command Protocols? They're a strong mechanic if you're willing to plan ahead.
Holy crap, so skiitari are getting an Orders-type mechanic now?
Our rangers/vanguard can hit on 2s in shooting rofl....
Funny how I was talking about reasons why we would take full-sized Skitarii units earlier, and here we are.
Anyhow, Mars might just be the best Forge World again because of how ridiculous Benediction is for something like Dunecrawlers. Need to wait for more details though.
I think the other FWs have viability depending on army composition. Melee Ad Mech and Plasma Destroyer spam want Ryza, Kataphron blobs want Agrinpinaa, massed Skitarii infantry like Lucius, Stygies' dogma is still good, and Metalica still has a bunch of extra rules and good strats from Book of Rust to keep it viable. Mars feels like a great generalist FW that's jack of all trades, which feels right for them. Mars definitely makes the Neutron Laser more viable but I feel like the Icarus Array might still be the go to option for Dunecrawlers especially if they get rid of the -1 to hit vs ground targets. Still only d3 shots is pretty bad and right now I can't think of a reason to take it over twin cognis lascannons on Ironstriders. It needs more than just going to S12 and d3+3 damage, something like if it stays stationary it goes to flat 6 damage like the Valdor Tank Hunter (which also has a neutron laser!) or successful wounds deal MWs like with the heavy rail cannon.
Kanluwen wrote:Joke's on you Suzuteo, I only take my Skitarii in full sized units!
You are a braver man than I then. o7
Mr. Funktastic wrote:I think the other FWs have viability depending on army composition. Melee Ad Mech and Plasma Destroyer spam want Ryza, Kataphron blobs want Agrinpinaa, massed Skitarii infantry like Lucius, Stygies' dogma is still good, and Metalica still has a bunch of extra rules and good strats from Book of Rust to keep it viable. Mars feels like a great generalist FW that's jack of all trades, which feels right for them. Mars definitely makes the Neutron Laser more viable but I feel like the Icarus Array might still be the go to option for Dunecrawlers especially if they get rid of the -1 to hit vs ground targets. Still only d3 shots is pretty bad and right now I can't think of a reason to take it over twin cognis lascannons on Ironstriders. It needs more than just going to S12 and d3+3 damage, something like if it stays stationary it goes to flat 6 damage like the Valdor Tank Hunter (which also has a neutron laser!) or successful wounds deal MWs like with the heavy rail cannon.
Yeah. That's true. But if we're going to do the usual toolkit-style list, having the flexibility to focus Canticle picks on the most relevant part of your arsenal has historically been super good.
I personally hope I am wrong though. I want to play Ryza and field 9-10 Dragoons once more.
Mr. Funktastic wrote:I think the other FWs have viability depending on army composition. Melee Ad Mech and Plasma Destroyer spam want Ryza, Kataphron blobs want Agrinpinaa, massed Skitarii infantry like Lucius, Stygies' dogma is still good, and Metalica still has a bunch of extra rules and good strats from Book of Rust to keep it viable. Mars feels like a great generalist FW that's jack of all trades, which feels right for them. Mars definitely makes the Neutron Laser more viable but I feel like the Icarus Array might still be the go to option for Dunecrawlers especially if they get rid of the -1 to hit vs ground targets. Still only d3 shots is pretty bad and right now I can't think of a reason to take it over twin cognis lascannons on Ironstriders. It needs more than just going to S12 and d3+3 damage, something like if it stays stationary it goes to flat 6 damage like the Valdor Tank Hunter (which also has a neutron laser!) or successful wounds deal MWs like with the heavy rail cannon.
Yeah. That's true. But if we're going to do the usual toolkit-style list, having the flexibility to focus Canticle picks on the most relevant part of your arsenal has historically been super good.
I personally hope I am wrong though. I want to play Ryza and field 9-10 Dragoons once more.
Mars and Ryza are top 2 in my mind, we have a lot of good melee units and basically becoming Blood Angels and getting +1 to charge (+2 with a Manipulus) is pretty damn great. Dragoons getting an overall buff in their taser lances and statline is big, they'll basically wound anything T7 and below on 2+. Ruststalkers with AP on their weapons are also looking viable, I'm hoping there's more to the razor and chordclaw because blades look like the better pick straight up right now. And Plasma Destroyers are looking pretty good even if Plasma Specialists got nerfed, 3 damage plasma culverins are still no joke (and safer to overcharge now) and with the amount of -1 damage stuff out there these days 2 damage and d3 damage won't cut it.
Lord Clinto wrote: i just pray that these Docrina don't turn out to be similar in implementation to the Necron Command Protocols....I refuse to use them and don't know a single Necron player that even uses Command Protocols.
Even if they are similar in that you need to be within range of a qualifying character to use them, they'll still be miles better than Command Protocols because the problem with CP (other than the whole 'choose the order before the battle ) is that they're very restrictive to implement and the buff is laughably minor even if you do bother to use it.
Canticles could very well have the same limitations they have now. Can't be repeated. The blessing is nice for Mars, but it could be available for only one turn. Also, if you are going second, you will have to telegraph your intention to your opponent.
Mars is great, and it "needs" to be as its the the allrounder of all those forge worlds.
The intent seems to be to have Mars as a generalist that allows you to take whatever you want, mixing units as you see fit.
All the other FWs push a different angle.
Ryza, as mentioned. Agripinaa is Servitor. Lucius is durability. Metallica is mobility. Graia is fethed. Stygies is sneaky and anti-gunline.
The odd one out is Graia for me, as that one just appears weak. Every other FW has some unique traits that reward a certain army composition and playstyle.
I'll still run mostly Mars because its "comfortable", but its easy to branch out.
And noone said you cant mix detachments to get Canticles on Skitarii and your Fulgs ride in a Ryza detach....
Thairne wrote: Mars is great, and it "needs" to be as its the the allrounder of all those forge worlds.
The intent seems to be to have Mars as a generalist that allows you to take whatever you want, mixing units as you see fit.
All the other FWs push a different angle.
Ryza, as mentioned. Agripinaa is Servitor. Lucius is durability. Metallica is mobility. Graia is fethed. Stygies is sneaky and anti-gunline.
The odd one out is Graia for me, as that one just appears weak. Every other FW has some unique traits that reward a certain army composition and playstyle.
I'll still run mostly Mars because its "comfortable", but its easy to branch out.
And noone said you cant mix detachments to get Canticles on Skitarii and your Fulgs ride in a Ryza detach....
I'm still expecting mixed detachments to be locked down like other codexes before us, but not every army has to play the same way. Even though it doesn't appeal to me; They've already shown that they're not afraid to shake things up. So far they've literally gone back to 7th and worked from there rather than building on the shakey foundations of 8th. Taken a few of the good things from 8th but generally just improved 7th like they should have done in the first place. Lessons learned I guess. But yeah, I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket for mixed detachments, because the trend of 9th edition so far is moving away from min-maxing army benefits.
I support the Mars is the generalist approach, the problem is that the other forgeworlds so far dont double down on their niche enough for them to override Mars generalist position. I'm still hoping for a generic arch magos upgrade and for us to be able to specialise them in some way.
A little something that I noticed in the Crusade Rules Preview: "Adeptus Mechanicus Infantry or Monsters..."
Either we are getting a new unit not yet revealed, or Robots are going back to being Monsters.
I, personally, Hope it is the latter; Robots as Monsters instead of Vehicles takes the sting out of Haywire, enemy Arc, and similar specialized anti-tank (but makes DEldar still a little scarier).
I noticed that too and thought it could perhaps be about Kastelan Robots but after considering the context I think that they’ll remain vehicles and perhaps Cawl will gain the Monster keyword. As the text is to do with interacting with a pseudo objective I think that makes the most sense.
They're a hard nerf on the old ones, having exploding 6s only on one unit and then only from turn 2 on (if I interpret "action" correctly), but I can totally see Vanguards with a Manipulus going upfield, advancing, shooting 21" without penalty because metalica, explode on 6s, D2 on 6s...
The 1 CP saved reduces the pts cost in comparison. And metalica got an extra epic deed strat with charadon...
They really seem to love Metalica right now.
Artisan seems more underwhelming, although going back to ye olde times of S8 autocannons and S10 Lascannons without canticles and not running Mars and permanently at that is nice as well.
Looks like Holy Orders are chapter command style point upgrades now instead of WLTs. Some interesting stuff including a one time -1 CP to a specific category of stratagems depending on the Order (free/1 CP Wrath of Mars? 1 CP Plasma Specialists?) and 2 types of auras, one persistent that's effective at the start of the game or an advanced one that overrides the first one after you do an action to activate it. I'm gonna guess Enginseers are gonna get a bigger role now as cheap Holy Orders aura givers. Either way, there's a lot of things to keep track of while playing Ad Mech now.
The word "warlord" is not in that entire article. You must be thinking of the original Holy Order which for some randomass reason was limited to your actual warlord, despite the wording being identical to all warlord traits. It does say "Tech-Priest" a lot though.
There's nothing in the article that suggests they have to be your Warlord anymore, so we can't assume that. Plus, if you want to use the Advanced part of the Progressive Ability, you apparently need to perform an action, which shuts off auras. Perfect for an Enginseer since they don't have a valuable reroll aura (Master of Machines might count as an aura but I think it's probably a worthwhile tradeoff).
Vineheart01 wrote: The word "warlord" is not in that entire article. You must be thinking of the original Holy Order which for some randomass reason was limited to your actual warlord, despite the wording being identical to all warlord traits.
It does say "Tech-Priest" a lot though.
Because "Engine War" gave you the ability to grant a Warlord Trait to someone who was not your Warlord via the "Mechanicus Locum" stratagem, so they made it such a way that you could do a Warlord Trait but not a Holy Ordos which are Warlord Traits but not.
Thats not the issue.
The issue is how they did it.
The wording literally says that stratagem doesnt work for any trait, as every trait says "warlord"
Everyone took it as "No holy order" because the alternative is just beyond stupid.
Kataphron Destroyer datasheet leak, in French unfortunately. Seems like Kataphrons are Bikers now, Heavy Grav Cannons do flat 2 damage instead of d3 against save 3+, Phosphor Blasters seems to ignore Dense Cover instead of Light Cover now, and it looks like they can traverse terrain as if they were infantry despite being bikers. Unit size is also capped at 6. Still Troops so they get Ob Sec but this locks them out of doing Shadow Operations secondaries.
Well, the issue was that the wording in the stratagem and the Holy Order explanation text was exactly the same as every other book and stratagem's language. GW decided to write an FAQ instead of an Errata to change the ruling, but of course RAW either their FAQ is wrong or it breaks literally every extra Warlord trait strat for every book. Neither of the rules that you can only take one Holy Order trait or that it must be on your actual Warlord are supported by the rules. (I was very invested in this argument at one point.) So we take it as an idiosyncrasy and move on.
I think this is a great use of the rule though. The Holy Order traits had an interesting mechanic and narrative that should be preserved. They were too strong and so closed up the design space for other Warlord traits. Now we'll be able to see other Warlord traits in play.
It's interesting that Logi is the most expensive one, since its original effects were by far the worst. I wonder how they'll have reworked it.
By the way, has anyone figured out the rhyme or reason to how GW categorizes stratagems? What the hell is the difference between a Strategic Ploy and a Battle stratagem?
Now that Kataphrons are Bikers now I'm wondering what the purpose of the Heavy Combat Servitor ability is since they're not Infantry so they can already shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.
i was hoping the holy order was a marking point for all warlord traits to become something like that. Not as many of them, but extremely diverse ones that can be toggled around. Maybe for the statboosting ones lower the amount of togglable effects and provide a static boost as well. I always found it weird how so many warlord traits are extremely lackluster except in a specific time...well if its in a togglable group of auras then long as youre paying attention that time comes around you switch to it and boom, benefits!
Sadly that didnt happen and were back to boring warlord traits. Least the Holy Orders are somewhat still alive, just not in warlord trait form.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Now that Kataphrons are Bikers now I'm wondering what the purpose of the Heavy Combat Servitor ability is since they're not Infantry so they can already shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.
It lets them interact with Breachable terrain as if they were infantry.
These seem like a variation on space wolf sagas, lesser ability for free and a better one after performing some form of action.
I like it, as long as there's synergy between all these abilities we seem to be able to stack on our tech priests now. Warlord trait, relic, hold order, canticle, imperative. The potential for stacking is huge.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Now that Kataphrons are Bikers now I'm wondering what the purpose of the Heavy Combat Servitor ability is since they're not Infantry so they can already shoot Heavy weapons without penalty.
It lets them interact with Breachable terrain as if they were infantry.
That's the Track Mobility rule, they still have the Heavy Combat Servitor rule that reads the same ignore Heavy weapon penalties for moving wording. It seems like an oversight to me, maybe it was supposed to be something like advance and shoot heavy weapons or something.
Yeah there's loads of leaks in Italian, but the author translated most if not all of it. Check the Kastelan !
Spoiler:
In short:
- Each Robot can have a HPB, Flamer and one Fist at the same time, and the dorsal HPB is now a Kastelan Phosphor Blaster, which is 36" and D1, while the ones on the arm are 24" but D2
- Combustor is now AP-2
- Each Fist now gives +1A, so 5A with both
- Protector mode give BS 3+ and can't move
- Conqueror mode gives reroll charges and WS 2+ (!!!)
- Aegis mode gives a 2+
- They explode for 1MW only and in a 3" zone now
- They have 7W now and are still Vehicles
Damn I hoped for a buff on Melee bots and I got it. And they told me I was crazy to build 4 Fistelans !
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, the complaints about the "underpowering" of the Cult Mechanicus components over on Reddit is fuelling me better than caffeine right now.
Weren't DE players complaining right before their codex released? I'm holding my breath since we have such massive changes and lots of things that intertwine we can't see until we get the full codex in our hands. I am a little disheartened though, it definitely feels like we're being pushed towards skitarii units but my favorite models were cult mechanicus. We'll know more tomorrow.
Suzuteo wrote: I remember when people were saying they won't get the Disintegrator because it didn't have an invulnerable save.
People catastrophize a lot. Lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reading the new Manipulus gives 6" and AP1 to Radium and Arc weapons.
Skitarii also get Doctrinas and can be taken in units of 20.
Graia makes them immune to attrition just about.
HERE COMES THE RED RAIN, HERE COMES THE RED TIDE!
Oh the doom saying and salt on facebook and Reddit is absolutely hilarious. Its the biggest comedy sketch ever. The cries of 'hard nerf' are just comical. Basically whats happend is everything is now focussed, we have to actually choose what we want to buff, everything is better by default and we can only selectively make stuff powerful. But because we cant buff our entire army at once and apply zero thought to the whole process it's a 'hard nerf'.
I cannot wait for the book, so excited, everything i've seen so far has been great.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh my, they added a generic Technoarcheologist! So Dr D is in the codex! He's not the same but it's another HQ.
Also for every Manipulus, Dominus or Cawl we can include an enginseer or technoarcheologist without taking up an HQ slot!
Yeah, there is a "spoiler mania" phase where everyone hyperfocuses on a few details before the entire picture comes out, and they think they've been nerfed. I remember Drukhari players crying too.
The only people who seemed to not think this was Necrons players, but that is because they were already so beaten down that any change could only be an improvement.
SYDONIAN DRAGOONS: 70 points, 4 attacks (6 on hit=+2 attacks. Procs on 5+ with 1CP), 3+ and -1 to hit them
IMPERIAL KNIGHTS: We can add a questor mechanicum IK without paying normally paying the superheavy detach CP cost, but we dont lose canticles and forge world dogma. [FIXED, sorry for the error]
KASTELAN ROBOTS and DATAMSITH: 100 points with fists, 110 with phosphors. Weapon on the back is always free. Changing protocol is a datasmith action that is completed the next command phase (and we kept the strat too). The Datasmith also gives CORE to Kastelans within 3"!!!
BELISARIUS CAWL now is supreme commander. Base 5++ but, if he's Warlord, he gets 4++ and -1 dmg
SKITARII MARSHAL: 45 points. With a relic, CORE Skitarii within 6" reroll 1 to hit and to wound
SKITARII RANGERS/VANGUARDS 8 points base and teams of 5-20
STRATAGEMS (page 1/4, got only this for now)
Elimination Volley: 1CP, kataphron shooting within half range auto-wound on 6s to hit
1CP: Techpriest can deal MW to vehicles in melee: roll d6, 1=nothing, 2-5= d3 MW, 6=d3+3 MW
1CP: +1S in close combat to a skitarii unit
2CP: electropriest in melee gets auto-wound on 6 to hit
1CP: serberys and ballistari auto-advance +6", heavy weaps becomes assault and they dont get -1 for advancing and shooting with assault weapons
1CP: Sicarian gets +1A in the first turn of combat
1CP: vehicle gets 4+++ against MW
1CP: target an enemy unit within 12" of electropriests. Roll D6 (-1 for characters): 2-5 D3 MW, 6 2D3 MW
Kastelan Robots with Fists are getting immensely better and are getting cheaper. I'm going to have so much fun with Ryza.
Skitarii Rangers and Vanguard apparently costing 8 pts/model ? Hard to believe, it seems way too good.
Kanluwen wrote: I saw that and don't believe it, hence not reposting.
The "Skitarii are going to units of 20" is the reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaallly? moment for me, lol.
That plus the supposed strat for a unit of rangers to go to rapid fire 2 for a phase. You're telling me these 8 point troop choices could fire 80 shots on 2+, with rerolling 1s, at 18" with AP-2, buffed to S5, and rerolling 1s to wound. Like, just dropping 20 MEQ in one troop unit's shooting phase? To say nothing of how quickly it deletes anything with a 5+ save or worse...
Kanluwen wrote: I saw that and don't believe it, hence not reposting.
The "Skitarii are going to units of 20" is the reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaallly? moment for me, lol.
They went down to 8ppm too. Vanguard auto-wound on hit rolls of 6. Manipulus gives them extra AP1 and 6" range. Marshal gives them reroll 1s to hit and wound and Doctrinas. Very spicy.
Ironstriders are CORE Skitarii too! Both got a better armor save. Dragoons have native -1 to hit and an extra attack as well; there is a stratagem to get them +2 attacks on 5+ to hit. Probably best to run those as Dragoons for the +1 to wound and charges. Marshal also gives them reroll 1s to hit and wound and Doctrinas.
If you play Kataphrons, you would probably run Archaeotech (Daedalosus replacement) to make them infantry and also Enginseers give +1 to hit to a unit.
Infiltrators forward deploy! And it seems they shutdown rerolls.
Yeah it seems really unlikely to me, it never was the case and we're not a horde army by definition. The book's design seem intent on buffs on specific units to deal damage or utility in a specific way very efficiently, as opposite to army-wide buffs like the big Cawl bubble of yore and such. Buffing a 20 man unit of Rangers or Vanguards with all we can muster in characters, stratagems, doctrinas and canticles combined seems a tad excessive.
The part about limiting special weapons at 1 under 11 is what makes me believe this info to be an hoax too. I mean, are we supposed to make a 20 man squad of Rangers to use our 2 Transuranic Arquebuses now ? Unlikely.
EDIT: A bit disappointed by the Marshal's pistol, I expected something a little bit more... exotic than a single shot radium carbine. It's weird that the sword is decorative but his rod is way better than a power sword, and he has a magnificient WS 3+ as I had hoped.
Frankly I believe, from my first impressions, that a melee AdMech army will be terrifying. Not because of the Marshal's rod I mean, but as a whole.
I am tremendously surprised we kept Shroudpsalm. That makes Mars really scary, and it makes Metalica+Raven Knights even stronger.
I'm really surprised the Enginseer got bumped up, but good for him. I was already planning to main him as a cheap HQ, but this is a welcome surprise. And hey, his pistol got an upgrade! 2 shots, S4 AP-2.
What I don't get is the "you can take one without using an HQ slot per Dominus/Manipulus" for the Enginseer and Technoarchaelogist. I guess maybe an extra Enginseer or two is worth-while to juice and repair your tanks, but then you're spending a whole lot of points on HQs. Maybe there's some good combination of Warlord Traits and you just go all in on HQs and Holy Orders.
Datasmith giving robots Core might just be the big enough reason to bring one.
Depending though. Admech so far has been sprinkling a lot of other requirements not just core.
On that point, it feels like most buffs are only for Core units, which so far are Rangers/Vanguard and Robots. I have to assume Electropriests and Sicarians have Core. Even if Sicarians do, they'll typically be operating on their own and won't be in range for buffs. EDIT: "Skitarii Vanguard and Rangers, both serberys, both pteraxii, electropriests, dragoons and ballistari. Unluckly not the Sicarian!" It's really hard to visualize all these different buffs and their specific requirements and applications, but that's a point in favor of the codex. AdMech should be fiddly and weird.
That being said, it does seem like all these buffs stack up really well on our troops. That makes me think the 20 max size leak isn't non-sense. It seems like you'll want to coordinate your buffs and stack them on to the biggest squads available. That is probably going to be Ballistari and Robots, since they're the biggest Core units and massed Skitarii are still unproven.
The Marshal seems pretty bad, or at least you'll always take a Manipulus first. Ignoring the malus of Doctrinas is extremely situational, since you're already trying to get into a position where the malus doesn't apply (sit on objective, +1sv so -3"m doesn't matter, etc.).
I think the Technoarcheologist is either going to be build-enabling for action secondaries, or dead on arrival.
If the rumors are true, my initial instinct is to take Ryza and fill it to the brim with choppy Skitarii, especially Raiders, Dragoons, and Infiltrators, backed by 2x20 Vanguard and maybe 20x Rangers.
The firebase will a Krast Crusader or Magaera. This is because all of the HQ/Doctrina/Canticle support will be dedicated to the Skitarii in the field.
Same idea, but with Metalica and Raven: Front-line Armiger Warglaives, supported by Infiltrators, Raiders, and Vanguard, with a backline Dunecrawler. We'll see how the points and specifics work out for HQs, but at least an Enginseer, maybe a Manipulus, and possibly both. AdMech is looking like it can field an extremely fast in your face army.
My trouble is I read 40 different things on reddit or wherever and not sure where to plant myself. Guess I'll just wait for that new codex and build the rest of my army accordingly. The good news is I have enough spares to make some fistibots to back up my dakka ones and I can go gold either way.
Olthannon wrote: My trouble is I read 40 different things on reddit or wherever and not sure where to plant myself. Guess I'll just wait for that new codex and build the rest of my army accordingly. The good news is I have enough spares to make some fistibots to back up my dakka ones and I can go gold either way.
Pick one unit you want to build your army around and just try it out.
I am going to focus on the 10 Dragoons I have on my shelf.
I have access to a full codex leak in French from one of my FB groups. Ask away your questions !
For now I can confirm Rangers and Vanguards going to units of 20 ! One special weapon under 10, and two special weapons at 10+ models, same for Omnispex or Data-tether. And they're both 8 pts/model too !
Arquebus loses its no move rule, it's a regular Heavy now, good news.
Great... Now I hàve to reconfigure all of my squads and rip models apart to conform to such stupidity. GW must think it's player base is to stupid to plan out different combinations of weapons from what comes in the box. every edition there is less and less modeling/squad variation and more paper variation (strata/dogmas, etc.)
The book overall sounds great but I just wish variation in units and models was still a thing.
Based on reviews/previews, I think my biggest disapointment from this book seems to be the lack of CultMech <CORE>. I wish kataphrons still had <CORE>...
Aaranis wrote: One special weapon under 10, and two special weapons at 10+ models, same for Omnispex or Data-tether.
Actually, if I read the blurry text from the above review right, it looks like you can have 1 arc rifle per 10 models, 1 plasma caliver per 10 models and 1 arquebus per 10 models. So in a 10 man squad you can have 3 special weapons, but basically only one of each, like how it comes in the box.
Aaranis wrote: I have access to a full codex leak in French from one of my FB groups. Ask away your questions !
Do you have to pay CP for the extra Knight detachment you can take with each AdMech detachment?
It doesn't say, it justs reads "For each detachment in your army with this ability, you can chose an Auxiliary Super-Heavy Questor Mechanicus in your army. The models of this detachment gain the Knights of the Cog keyword."
And you're right Redemption, I read too fast. It's limited to one of each special weapons per 10 models.
Also, Irradiation aura within Engagement range is -1S and -1T, it's a nice boost for survivability when S4 models hit our Vanguards at S3.
Worth mentioning that Serberys (both variants), Sicarians (both variants), Pteraxii (both variants) have their invulnerable upped to 5+ ! A nice buff indeed. 6++ felt almost useless.
Oh and the Skorpius allows 12 Infantry passengers now !
Aaranis wrote: It doesn't say, it justs reads "For each detachment in your army with this ability, you can chose an Auxiliary Super-Heavy Questor Mechanicus in your army. The models of this detachment gain the Knights of the Cog keyword."
Yeah, it looks like it was just meant so that you can include a knight without losing the buffs from Doctrina Imperatives and Canticles of the Omnissiah - which you would normally lose if your army isn't entirely AdMech - not to save you the CP cost.
Its to conform with what the kit supplies.
I have 6 arquebi standing around - and I dont think more than 3 will EVER see the light of the table ever again.
Fortunately I only have to rip 6 heads off.. 3 from arc rifles so I get 3 ranger heads, 3 vanguard heads from plasma so I can just swap these around and have 3 of each weapon with ranger and vanguard heads.
I just.. dont see me using vanguards with Sniper rifles.
Kanluwen wrote: The point was that they did not seem to understand why Arquebus were the "default" choice for Ranger squads.
Really should have just locked them in as Ranger only and let Rangers take 1 per 5 Arquebus, and then a special per 10.
*stares in visable confusion...*
but....but the box only has one. how can you equip a unit with something thats not in the box?!? IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE!!!1![/sarcasm]
jokes aside, if the comments on that goonhammer review are correct, both the Arc Rifle and the Plasma caviler now have the range to be viable with regular rangers (30"), so will
Now, i aggree their was absolutely no reason to limit options to just what is in the box. I kinda-sorta maybe understood it with plague marines where it was possible to build illegal unit compositions if you didnt pay attention/ didnt know better (or so im told), buts thats not the case here. I dont understand why we're being hit with the Curse of Just the Box Options, its not like our arquebusiers were setting the meta on fire by ignoring look out sir, or people were running in fear of our plasma cavaliers.
it seems like we are getting smeared with the results of some high level directive to make datasheet options match box options extactly. i cannot fathom what is driving this (after all, the previous datasheet encouraged buying multiple boxes of the unit to maximise special weaponry!)
Fortunately I only have to rip 6 heads off.. 3 from arc rifles so I get 3 ranger heads, 3 vanguard heads from plasma so I can just swap these around and have 3 of each weapon with ranger and vanguard heads.
I just compromised and used the "bear headed" heads for my special weapons guys so i could deploy them either way. I just found it a cleaner way to do it.
I think it's the result of feedback from the playtesters from the tourney side of things. A lot of the known ones have always been vocal about "BUT MUH BOX DOESN'T HAVE THE PARTS!!1!" in the past, using it to justify their constant praise heaped upon 3rd party "inspired by" bits sellers.
It sure sucks for us but it's way friendlier for new players that want to go into competitive builds. Back in the days it was "plasma everywhere" then "arc weapons everywhere" then "plasma everywhere" again so it can feel a little overwhelming when you want to build 4x2 plasma and have to buy 80 Skitarii.
Skitarii Rangers/Vanguard as a kit were and are some of the easiest to acquire at a discount thanks to them being in all the "starter" products with AdMech in them at this point. If you're not swimming in Skitarii at this point? You were playing Cult Mechanicus in 7th.
Yeah Starter sets are usually nice but after having 3 Onagers and 60 Dominus you run out of reasons to buy them. Though the current Start Collecting with a Skorpius instead is nice I guess, I'd buy these instead of just the Skorpius box (didn't buy a single box yet as 60€ for less than 100 pts for the transport version is mad I believe).
Aren't units of 20 still kinda prone to dying excessively fast ? I played 2 games of 9th months ago so no experience, but Blast is still a thing, and getting a 20 unit stuck in melee or something is more bothersome.
Personnaly I don't think I'll run more than 10 but that's mainly because I have 33 Vanguards, and 6 of them are Alphas and 3 of them Plasma gunners.
Aaranis wrote: Aren't units of 20 still kinda prone to dying excessively fast ? I played 2 games of 9th months ago so no experience, but Blast is still a thing, and getting a 20 unit stuck in melee or something is more bothersome.
Personnaly I don't think I'll run more than 10 but that's mainly because I have 33 Vanguards, and 6 of them are Alphas and 3 of them Plasma gunners.
You can stack so many +sv on them that I don't think they will. Take Logos Holy Order to ignore AP1 and 2, then +1 Sv Doctrina, and maybe slap on Shroudpsalm if you're Mars. You can get them very beefy for a turn or two.
Hey, by the way, what's the deal with the successor Forgeworld. Goonhammer said they get the Dogma, Stratagems, and Warlord traits of a main one, but not the relics? So... what do they get in return? Why not just say "counts-as-Mars" for your homebrew?
Aaranis wrote: Yeah Starter sets are usually nice but after having 3 Onagers and 60 Dominus you run out of reasons to buy them. Though the current Start Collecting with a Skorpius instead is nice I guess, I'd buy these instead of just the Skorpius box (didn't buy a single box yet as 60€ for less than 100 pts for the transport version is mad I believe).
I wonder when we'll get Secutarii rules.
you mean secutarii hoplites and peltasts? that got 9th ed rules in the Imp armour compendulam last year?
Aaranis wrote: Aren't units of 20 still kinda prone to dying excessively fast ? I played 2 games of 9th months ago so no experience, but Blast is still a thing, and getting a 20 unit stuck in melee or something is more bothersome
And then dont forget that ruins usually are defensible, so you get set to defend and overwatch on a 5+... charging those 20 guys is not something to be taken lightly. Depending on the strat, if you can do the RF2 thing on them in Overwatch too, that's gonna hurt most things.
I haven't played in over a year (thanks Covid!) And my poor Metallica army has been in a display case figuratively gathering dust. Now I hear they'll be viable and I really am excited!
Can someone elaborate on their interaction with House Raven? I need very little excuse to build and paint knights, so nudge me in that direction please.
As far as I know the gist of it was that a HOUSE RAVEN KNIGHT could be taken in your army and it would gain canticles and the AdMech Keyword and could be repaired by a METALICA TP just as well as a standard AdMech vehicle via a WLT.
But it looks like the new AdMech Codex already throws that out of the window and gives it to basically every FW.
Not precisely. House Metallica and House Raven work together a little better than other combinations. AdMech let's you take a Knight Superheavy Aux Detachment without losing their canticles, but that's about it.
Metallica can give a House Raven Knight the Knight of the Iron Cog ability, or more than one Knight at 1 CP each. This lets the Knight not disrupt canticles AND benefit from the canticles as it it were an AdMech unit itself. There is also a warlord trait for Raven knights that gives the Knight +2 wounds and allows AdMech units to repair the Knight as it it were an AdMech unit (usually 1d3 wounds restored instead of a flat 1).
Other than that, Metallica offers some really useful strategems that help Knights, such as turning off rerolls in combat to a nearby unit or turning off a units ability to benefit from Aura abilities.
More broadly, Knights offer a shock or battle-line unit to AdMech. AdMech can do similar things with the chicken-tasers or bit units of Kataphrons, but Knights are probably a little tougher than those and can stick around on an objective longer.
Aaranis wrote: Aren't units of 20 still kinda prone to dying excessively fast ? I played 2 games of 9th months ago so no experience, but Blast is still a thing, and getting a 20 unit stuck in melee or something is more bothersome.
Personnaly I don't think I'll run more than 10 but that's mainly because I have 33 Vanguards, and 6 of them are Alphas and 3 of them Plasma gunners.
You can stack so many +sv on them that I don't think they will. Take Logos Holy Order to ignore AP1 and 2, then +1 Sv Doctrina, and maybe slap on Shroudpsalm if you're Mars. You can get them very beefy for a turn or two.
Hey, by the way, what's the deal with the successor Forgeworld. Goonhammer said they get the Dogma, Stratagems, and Warlord traits of a main one, but not the relics? So... what do they get in return? Why not just say "counts-as-Mars" for your homebrew?
Yeah but if you make them resilient with all these buffs, they're not getting their shooting/melee buffed in the meantime. There's still many many weapons and units that can obliterate 20 T3 4+ wounds. But we'll have to see after a few months of data of course.
Build some more rangers - I have a bunch unbuilt in boxes which I have never really needed to use, but only somthing like 7 non-special weapons/non-alphas built (plus another 15 or so basic vanguard - again I have more with special weapons) (Mainly play cult mech).
Ordered some more corpuscarii (to take me up to a squad of 10) & 5 pteraxii for the deep strike, action/shoot jump away... (in addition to codex/marshall/cards/dice)
Locate where my 10 infiltrators, 5 ruststalkers & 4 Dragoons have been boxed away due to the previous codex...
bmsattler wrote: Will the Termite Drills need any kind of keyword FAQ updates to remain relevant in the new codex, or are they good to go as is?
They're good to go as-is. They are non-Core Skitarii vehicles.
But damn are Ironstriders good at everything now or what? I am definitely running 5x Autocannon Ballistarii and 5x Dragoons, perhaps with 2x Neutron Crawlers. Mars for the shooting, and a Ryza Patrol for my melee options.
I'm a little nervous about autocannons. People are turning to dreadnoughts for anti-Drukari, and Deathguard is a thing in my area.
Speaking of Cognis weapons, do they automatically use full ballistic skill for overwatch, or are they -1 to hit, or is that a strategem? I'm away from my books right now, apologies.
Trying to understand the wording on the skitarii special weapons.
can someone please clarify/confirm how many specials you can take at the following squad sizes:
So, just curious, are there any dogmas or strategems or such that would be great on say a Castellan or knight if you included it in your admech army under the new rules ? Like can I have a Knight with a 2+ save or -1 to hit from doctrines or something?
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, just curious, are there any dogmas or strategems or such that would be great on say a Castellan or knight if you included it in your admech army under the new rules ? Like can I have a Knight with a 2+ save or -1 to hit from doctrines or something?
Only with exactly Forgeworld Metalica and Knight House Raven. Metalica can spend 1cp per unit of Knights to give them Canticles, so they get buffed by things like Shroudpsalm along with the rest of your mechanicus cult. At lower points I plan to spend 4 CP to bring 3 Armigers in a Superheavy Auxiliary detachment and use that strat on the combined unit. At higher points I'll make the Knight my Warlord in a Superheavy Detachment, and pay 2 CP for my AdMech patrol and 3 CP for Canticles on each.
Besides that, for each detachment of AdMech you can also take one Superheavy Auxiliary detachment of Knights with the Mechanicus Oath and keep your Canticles/Doctrina (they otherwise require pure AdMech). That doesn't let the Knights use those buffs, and you still have to pay 3 CP for the Aux detachment. Bear in mind, Knights in an auxiliary detachment don't get their House Tradition (but do get stratagems and you can pay for relics and traits).
Really specifically, House Raven is the only House that can justify a Castellan because Order of Companions is so strong on it (I think my math showed like a 60% damage increase). Adding Canticles to it would make it nuts. If your main force was AdMech, you'd spend 3 CP to bring the Aux detachment, 1 on Knights of the Iron Cog for canticles, then 2 more for Ion Bulwark trait and Cawl's Wrath relic gun for 6 total. Then you'd plan to spend 3 CP per turn on Order of Companions. It's not bad, per say, but you gotta plan your turns out.
Dominus + Marshal A move down field to provide rerolls and bonuses for the melee. Marshal B hangs back to give the Ballistarii rerolls and to remove any penalty from Doctrina.
Raiders fulfill more a support role. They scout move to get ahead of the Dragoons, can snipe characters, and have a new stat line with 5++, an extra attack each, and T4 W2. Temporcopia lets them make an enemy within 3" fight last. They also got Tactical Obliqua, which you can cheapen to 1 CP with Logi.
Dragoons are amazing again. In addition to the bonuses from Ryza, they also have great stratagem synergy:
-First turn Dunestriders to catch up with the Raiders
-Logi to ignore AP1-2; with Bulwark Protocol (Marshal cancels the Deprecation penalty) and Incense Cloud, it's extremely undesirable to shoot
-Archived Engagements to fight first
-Reroll 1s to hit and wound from Dominus and Marshal
-Citation to get AP2
-Omniscient Mask and Chain-Taser Protocols to explode 2 hits on 5s, 3 hits on 6s to hit
-Machine Superiority to get S9
-Crushing Weight for a reliable 4 MW after a successful charge
Fulgurites and Drills are the only units in this list with Canticles, and they both make good use of any of them. I sorta expect the Drill to either lose the Skitarii keyword or lose Canticles for Doctrina in the future (fine either way). Fulgurites lost the ability to fight twice, but there is a stratagem now to make a unit they are in melee with to fight last.
Las Ballistarii are my firebase unit. I will use them to snipe enemy transports and vehicles and let my melee do the heavy lifting in the midfield.
Sicarian Infiltrator for forward deploy (protects me from a lot of shenanigans) and Circuitous Assassin abuse.
Still trying to figure out what my Troop composition will look like. Right now, it's a bunch of MSUs to hold objectives, maybe outflank three units for secondaries. There is a chance I might use Corpuscarii or even more Vanguard instead of Fulgurites because it might be harder to get the buff on them, which was nerfed. Enriched Rounds (auto-wound against non-vehicles on 4+ to hit) is also ridiculous if I have a giant blob of Vanguard. Almost no chance I run Plasma Kataphrons. Did the math, not worth it without some sort of rerolls, and the new Plasma Specialists is extremely expensive for its effect.
Secondaries will pretty much always be Eradication of Flesh, Engage On All Fronts, and Raise the Banners High.
You can assign up to two relics for squad leaders, with a stratagem. That's intresting set with Ryza, though unfortunate for Kataphron units, they are miles behind their former glory. The agripinaa seems a strong contester for Kataphron gunline, perhaps combined with warzone: charadon rules.
I'm considering a 9-man Raider unit with Mars. You can get them to a 2+ save pretty easily that can also ignore AP 1 and 2. Throw Wrath of Mars on them to combine with their native mortals on 6 to wound, and they can threaten a lot of tough things with plink mortals.
Flamer units like Sulphorhounds and the Sterylizors would also be interesting for Wrath, and they have their own tricks they can do as well.
20-man infantry blobs look kinda scary now, with some deep-strike opportunities to get them suddenly into position.
This covers most of the models i've got, i'll still have to wait for the codex so I could make 2k lists, but so far, it seems that Mars dogma wants to play with msu units.
Heavy Support - 385
Onager Dunecrawler (Neutron + 2 Stubbers)
Onager Dunecrawler (Icarus)
Skorpius Disintegrator (Belleros)
Total: 2000
Game Plan:
Spoiler:
Probably also take 2 Skitarii relics, not sure on which units yet:
MultiTasking Cortex (Shoot while doing actions) or Archived Engagements (for fight first)
Firepoint Telemetry Cache (Free cover/boosted save)
The Marshal sits with the Ironstriders/rangers (probably putting these buffs on the ironstriders, who get (before the skitarii WL Traits)
Transhuman (cannot be wounded on 1-3)
rerolling a hit roll & a wound roll of 1
+3" range & +1 to save vs Damage 1
ignoring the downside of the Doctrina that is active
Ignoring AP -1 & -2
putting out 24 autocannon shots per turn
The Enginseer is close enough to the Ironstriders for LOGI ignoring AP boost, but still near the other Tanks for boosted BS on those.
The Manipulus runs around with the corpuscarii/vanguard boosting their guns. Probably teleporting in the corpuscarii & solar flare the vanguard.
raiders & Infiltrators go for actions or picking off weak targets
Pteraxii, because of their stratagem for flying away - mainly actions e.g. engage on all fronts etc.
Onagers/Skorpius/Enginseer/Destroyers are the firebase.
Breachers roll forward to hold primaries (they have a 1+ save in the open vs damage 1 0+ with shroudpsalm)
Secondaries will pretty much always be Eradication of Flesh, Engage On All Fronts, and Raise the Banners High.
Considering swapping out 1 Breacher model to put in another small squad, possibly servitors, for action monkeys.
I would also consider swapping out the Destroyers for more Rangers (& other undecided skitarii), but I need to pick up some more of them first as most of my unused skitarii either have arquebus or are built as vanguard instead...
Tiberius501 wrote:Anyone think Dragoons are worth using now? Or is it just: spam Rangers/Vanguard and Ballistarii?
See my Ryza post. I would not run Ryza without a unit of 5.
Razerous wrote:So is the data horde forge world a dead duck now?
It doesn't have the super exploding Arc weapons anymore.
Aaranis wrote: How do you use Temporcopia on the Raiders ? It's a relic, they're not characters ?
There is a stratagem for to give Princeps and Alphas a relic.
Temporcopia is really good as a charge screening tool because even if the Raiders are charged, at the start of any Fight phase, you can make an enemy unit attack last. (Correct me if I am wrong, but the rule is that if they have an ability that makes them attack first, they cancel out and it's resolved in the non-charging fight order?)
Since we're sharing lists, I'll throw my hat in the ring because a few people have asked about Knight allies. My group typically played at 1500, so here's my rebuilt half Knight, half AdMech list:
Spoiler:
Total 1496pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, Ironstorm, 490 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270 1 Warglaive, Stubber, 135
The idea is the Crusader, Vanguard, and Manipulus are a rock solid firebase together. The Vanguard are sturdy due to Logos and screen for the Crusader, and the Crusader can be repaired by the Manipulus. The Warglaives are the spearhead and principle assault threat, while the Raiders and Infiltrators provide board control and the Dunecrawler sits at the home objective.
The list should be really flexible and fast. Pretty much everything can advance and shoot, which helps positioning after a conservative deployment. It can go Shroudpsalm to weather an alpha strike, or it can deliver one with Benediction. It can also reach waaaay out to touch somebody with Invocation of Machine Vengeance and Full Tilt for 2D6dl advance and 3D6dl charge: an average of 27" charge before re-rolls. Hell, the Vanguard can also get launched like a missile to steal an objective, potentially moving 15" with auto-advance 6" and +3" from the Doctrina.
I'm not sure how I'd expand it up to 2000pts. I could either add a second Knight, or a fourth Warglaive and a Fusilave and some infantry. I'm also really considering a Marshall, but I have a strong feeling I can play around the Doctrina negatives without all that investment.
Razerous wrote: What forge world / rules work best with Kataphron Servitors now?
Not a lot. you have the odd stratagem, some Holy Order buffs maybe one or two other abilities.
regarding which Forgeworld dogma works:
Mars might work well with Torsion breachers, low shots with high swing values vs rerolls.
Lucuis Breachers become really hard to kill with anti-infantry fire, and can deep strike
Agrippina relic - eye of xi-lexum for rerolling wounding against vehicles - haywire breachers will thank you here.
Stygies - the dense cover is a decent buff.
Ryza - boosted melee for hydraulic claw breachers (wounding knights on 2+ on the charge...), and plasma boost for destroyers
the other forgeworlds (including custom ones) do not really help much
So for skitarii troops, the comp is getting shifted a lot.
Vanguard: Plasma/Arc msu. Assuming alpha can still take base squad rifle, 4 radium + special. Otherwise I think go big. 60 radium shots for 160 points seems decent, though I think Rangers are just better at anti-infantry.
Rangers: MSU just seems better, either 5 galvantic or 4+ arquebus. Though having a pair of 10 galv squads for anti-infantry could be really good. For MegaOverkill5000 20 galvantic then use the rapid fire strat.
For my Ryza I'll probably do 2x5 vanguard with plasma, 2 5x rangers with an arquebus. Do my best to have the vanguard keep pace with ruststalkers and/or dragoons, or even punchbots. I sadly think relying on skitarii troops to do anything but touch objectives or finish off units here or there is all we're getting. I might finally have to get Kataphrons...
Is it me or has admech now suddenly become a very melee capable army? @@ Dragoons can fight really well, so can electropriests, just to name two units.
And its not like we lose our other shooting if we take these two types of units. We don't even have to swarm the whole board with these. I think some dragoons plus some of our troops for obsec is quite capable of playing Hammer and going up one flank and taking the objectives along one flank. The other flank just needs to play Anvil and hold the line, and that would be our primary objectives solved.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Is it me or has admech now suddenly become a very melee capable army? @@ Dragoons can fight really well, so can electropriests, just to name two units.
And its not like we lose our other shooting if we take these two types of units. We don't even have to swarm the whole board with these. I think some dragoons plus some of our troops for obsec is quite capable of playing Hammer and going up one flank and taking the objectives along one flank. The other flank just needs to play Anvil and hold the line, and that would be our primary objectives solved.
Yes. The big question in my mind is if we want to run Ryza for more wounding power or Mars/Lucius for more durability.
Mars battalion, Ryza patrol seems like a very obvious starting point for AdMech right now. I’m sure plenty of more nuanced builds will come out of the codex but really good shooting with a dash of super lethal melee makes pretty good sense
I REALLY like the look of Mars and getting to use Canticles. It seems really fun to me.
Even though they’re best in Ryza, I want to use Dragoons anyway. It’s kind of a shame that Rangers seem better than Vanguard with their strat to get Rapid Fire 2(!)
astro_nomicon wrote:Mars battalion, Ryza patrol seems like a very obvious starting point for AdMech right now. I’m sure plenty of more nuanced builds will come out of the codex but really good shooting with a dash of super lethal melee makes pretty good sense
I am not so sure. This army is very CP hungry at muster. Every list I have burns 3-4 CP for the extra relics and WLTs.
Tiberius501 wrote:I REALLY like the look of Mars and getting to use Canticles. It seems really fun to me.
Even though they’re best in Ryza, I want to use Dragoons anyway. It’s kind of a shame that Rangers seem better than Vanguard with their strat to get Rapid Fire 2(!)
Vanguard aura got buffed to -1S and -1T to enemies in melee. They also have a stratagem to auto-wound on 4+ to hit. I think they are clearly the better option for Ryza because even a single MSU is crippling.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Basic Dragoons statline and strategems make them good anyway. Ryza makes them better, but I don't think they will be bad even in Mars.
Ryza gives them +1 on charges, +1 to wound, additional AP1. (This is pretty much all at once too.)
Mars gives them Canticles (cover in open, +1S in melee, or roll an extra D6 and discard the lowest result on charge) and a single reroll to hit.
On that note, here's a weird list. I made it mostly as a way to experiment with Cawl. He's not bad. He's also VERY different than how he has always been used. He's not a Mars HQ anymore. He's the lynchpin of a multi-FW army, which has to have one Mars detachment with Robots or a big blob of Corpuscarii.
Dragoons in Mars. Marshal gives him fight first and rerolls. Canticles are used to buff the Dragoons; Cawl switches himself and the Robots to Shroudpsalm.
Ballistarii are in the Stygies unit to get Dense Cover, they are parked behind Cawl and the Warlord Marshal to get reroll 1s to hit and 1s to wound. Datasmith uses first turn Magi on the Dragoons, then switches immediately to Advanced to buff the Robots; he also grants Core to the Robots, which is how this is build is possible. Both Marshals stay close to their respective Ironstriders to turn off negatives as needed.
The two Stygies Vanguard blobs are forward deployed. The Warlord Marshal can make them shoot while putting banners and scramblers up from home, where he is buffing the Ballistarii.
What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.
EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.
Aaranis wrote: What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.
EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.
Not as good as Dragoons. Skitarii Core just makes them so punishingly strong. And there is a way for them to fight first with any Marshal. It's no contest really.
Aaranis wrote: What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.
EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.
Not as good as Dragoons. Skitarii Core just makes them so punishingly strong. And there is a way for them to fight first with any Marshal. It's no contest really.
Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.
And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?
The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!
Aaranis wrote: What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.
EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.
Not as good as Dragoons. Skitarii Core just makes them so punishingly strong. And there is a way for them to fight first with any Marshal. It's no contest really.
Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.
And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?
Raider Alpha with wlt and relic can keep up pretty easily. Plus as Dragoons havea broad spectrum data tether you can buff them with a Skitarii WLT from anywhere on the table.
Robots are pretty dead to me now unless you want to keep them in Aegis or only ever change protocol to Super-fists mode with the strat, because changing the protocol with the datasmith is even worse now that it was before!
KillswitchUK wrote: The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!
They are far more mobile than priests since they are movement 10. And they are Str 8 now (with lances), with an additional attack. Plus a strategem to give them exploding taser lances on 5s. It would take a lot to bog them down. As for not being able to hide them once they come out into the open. Their incense cloud gives them -1 to hit against both ranged as well as melee. And there are ways to improve their armour save from 3+ to 2+. They are Skitarii core as well. There are a ton of buffs and stuff you can throw on them. These Dragoons are hard to kill, hit super hard, and fast to boot. I honestly rate them higher than Electropriests now. They have everything a strong melee unit wants to have, resilience, lethality and mobility.
KillswitchUK wrote: The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!
They are far more mobile than priests since they are movement 10. And they are Str 8 now (with lances), with an additional attack. Plus a strategem to give them exploding taser lances on 5s. It would take a lot to bog them down. As for not being able to hide them once they come out into the open. Their incense cloud gives them -1 to hit against both ranged as well as melee. And there are ways to improve their armour save from 3+ to 2+. They are Skitarii core as well. There are a ton of buffs and stuff you can throw on them. These Dragoons are hard to kill, hit super hard, and fast to boot. I honestly rate them higher than Electropriests now. They have everything a strong melee unit wants to have, resilience, lethality and mobility.
Sorry I didn't mention priests, I meant Ruststalkers. For 170pts, Stygies for a garenteed turn 1 charge, they are pretty rutal being str 6 -3ap 1D with 41 attacks for 2CP?
I guess each has its advantages. I would say Dragoons are more versatile because str 8 can handle just about anything, including all manner of vehicles and dreadnaughts. They are also a lot tougher than Rust Stalkers. They are of course more expensive in points too.
Rust Stalkers seem to me like a one shot missile. They hit and hopefully kill what they come into contact with. A counter charge or shooting will probably clear them.
Dragoons are what you can use to literally move onto a midboard objective and bully whatever is on it and stay on it after that daring anyone to try and take that objective away from you.
I can see a squadron of Dragoons storming down a flank, taking objectives and even ending up in opponent's deployment zone by turn 4 or 5 and killing their heavy support or tanks. I just don't see Rust Stalkers being able to do that.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I guess each has its advantages. I would say Dragoons are more versatile because str 8 can handle just about anything, including all manner of vehicles and dreadnaughts. They are also a lot tougher than Rust Stalkers. They are of course more expensive in points too.
Rust Stalkers seem to me like a one shot missile. They hit and hopefully kill what they come into contact with. A counter charge or shooting will probably clear them.
Dragoons are what you can use to literally move onto a midboard objective and bully whatever is on it and stay on it after that daring anyone to try and take that objective away from you.
I can see a squadron of Dragoons storming down a flank, taking objectives and even ending up in opponent's deployment zone by turn 4 or 5 and killing their heavy support or tanks. I just don't see Rust Stalkers being able to do that.
The str is the only real factor here imo, but there're definitely tradeoffs, you can't ignore either.
170pts of Rusties is 20 2+/5++ t3 wounds you can zip from one side of the board to the next for 1cp and 41 str 5 ap -3 attacks.
210pts of Dragoons is 18 2+/6++ t6 wounds that only moves 2" faster and cant teleport around the place, and puts out a lot less attacks (even with improved explode) at less ap but higher str and more dmg per hit.
Really depends on your targets, personally i'd take both and priests and still find different targets for them. the sneak attack potential of Ruststalkers is pretty undervalued imo if your opponent is trying to keep something back for actions.
Dragoons have the problem most stuff like them have in 9th - an expensive premium melee unit without ridiculous survivability and no way to bypass screens is of limited worth in what is fundamentally a trading game. They also suffer from another 9th edition problem, which is that they pay points for survivability but don't pay enough to be actually resilient, just like they pay points to be killy but not quite enough to actually be super killy.
All-rounders generally struggle when lethality is high and the game becomes about trading, because the way to trade efficiently is generally not to be paying points for something you're not getting value from.
Finally, there's a surprising amount of stuff they bounce off against for a premium melee unit: anything that can ignore AP -1 and -2, anything with a 1+ base save, anything with -1 damage. It's actually a pretty small slice of the game that they are really effective at killing, but that they don't overkill and therefore trade down into.
yukishiro1 wrote: Dragoons have the problem most stuff like them have in 9th - an expensive premium melee unit without ridiculous survivability and no way to bypass screens is of limited worth in what is fundamentally a trading game. They also suffer from another 9th edition problem, which is that they pay points for survivability but don't pay enough to be actually resilient, just like they pay points to be killy but not quite enough to actually be super killy.
All-rounders generally struggle when lethality is high and the game becomes about trading, because the way to trade efficiently is generally not to be paying points for something you're not getting value from.
Finally, there's a surprising amount of stuff they bounce off against for a premium melee unit: anything that can ignore AP -1 and -2, anything with a 1+ base save, anything with -1 damage. It's actually a pretty small slice of the game that they are really effective at killing, but that they don't overkill and therefore trade down into.
I kinda agree which is why mine are mostly small units of 2-3. They hit hard enough against smaller stuff and are resilient enough that you should get value and be able to maneuver but not so big that it feels like trash when a super succubuss picks them up.
They made them better for sure but when I look at Mortifiers I still cry for what could have been.
Aaranis wrote: Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.
And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?
My calculator tells me there is no situation where Dragoons don't absolutely clobber Robots in a head to head.
I mean, setting aside all Forgeworld bonuses and Holy Orders, but counting the unique Skitarii and Cult WLTs and relics, this is what we have:
Durability: 3x T7 W7 3+/5++ (vs ranged only)
Mobility: M8" (has to stay within 3" of Datasmith)
Output: 15x S10 AP3 D3, BS2+, reroll 1s to hit
Durability: 4x T6 W6 2+ (1+ with Doctrina)/5++, -1 to hit
Mobility: M10" (+3" with Doctrina), can advance up to 19" reliably
Output: 20x S9 AP2 D2, BS2+, +2 hits on 5s (Chain-Taser Protocol) to hit and +3 hits on 6s (Omniscient Mask), reroll 1s to hit and to wound, fight first
Dragoons trade 1T for -1 to hit and 5++ in both ranged and melee as well as Light Cover on demand, on top of 24 gross wounds to the Robots' 21. Dragoons win handily here.
Dragoons are clearly faster than Robots, and they don't even need to be near their Marshal to get the WLT buffs.
Dragoons massively outdamage Robots. It's not even a contest. They trade 1S, AP1, and 1D to gain +103% effective hits. Note that Robots output 14.5833 effective hits after accounting for BS and the reroll 1 to hit. Dragoons output 29.63 effective hits. (Which is actually less than what they used to do, but still close to the glory days.)
Here's the math there, in case my calculations are mistaken:
Robots: (15*1/6*5/6+15*5/6) = 14.5833
Dragoons: ((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+20*1/6*2)*5/6) = 29.63
EDIT: Realized I was using 5x Dragoons in my calculator.
KillswitchUK wrote: The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!
This is a good point to consider. It might be safer to run them in 4s so they can move in a 2x2 block. You can also reserve then for 2 CP.
If you take Ryza, then your dragoons can get +1 to wound, -1 AP and +1 charge. That solves most AP problems because then their lances become -2AP, which is probably enough to bring most armour saves to their invulnerable saves anyway.
I totally support that Dragoons and rust stalkers are very different roles in our army. Rust stalkers are used to trade. Dragoons are not used to trade, cos we want them to stay on the table and dominate that flank we throw them down.
In a way, they are kind of like Electropriests once they have killed something and gotten their high invul (except that got slightly nerfed now).
Admech is still super good at shooting. So, the question is, if a typical opponent is facing an admech army, would they devote their shooting to reduce some of the more shooty elements, or would they actually try and kill T6W6 vehicles with a -1 to hit and possibly 2+ armor save.
I think any melee unit without fly can potentially be temporarily blocked by throwing cheap sacrificial units in their way. But look at how much better rangers now. We should now totally have the mass number of small shots to clear away chaff.
So, I am not saying rely only on Dragoons. But they are a really interesting hammer style unit that can really force their way down a flank and create huge problems now. You can go in single file through narrower gaps that might even give tanks problems and you can run them down the flanks which usually gives you more space anyway. There is zero reason not to advance, so you are moving 10+d6 inches every turn (and don't forget the +3 potential move you can give them). If they don't put a unit in your way to fight you, you could very well be at their deployment zone at the end of your second move even if they are at the extreme edge of one side of the board.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If you take Ryza, then your dragoons can get +1 to wound, -1 AP and +1 charge. That solves most AP problems because then their lances become -2AP, which is probably enough to bring most armour saves to their invulnerable saves anyway.
Dragoons have native AP2 now. So Citation gets them to AP3.
Ironstriders are honestly so strong that I am afraid that the next Muni is going to revise them up 10 points. That or they revise Robots down 10 points.
I really hope FAQ gives Kataphrons Core. They need it so badly.
Dragoons won't "stay on the table and dominate that flank," though; you'll usually just end up trading them unfavorably. Melee units can't do their thing without exposing themselves to a counterstrike (except for the handful of stuff that can move after fighting or something like that), and they aren't near tanky enough to survive the counter-punch. -1 to hit T6 3+/6++ 6W is not a particularly resilient profile for a 70 point model. Any decent hammer unit will happily pick them straight up unless you take a big unit, and if you do take a big unit, that just makes it more unwieldy and even juicier to take off the board.
They're in that classic tight spot in 9th in that they pay points for everything, but don't specialize in anything - they pay points for a 10" move, but don't have fly or infantry so terrain does them dirty and they can't jump over screens; they pay points for a decent defensive profile, but not a great one, and they pay points for strongish offense, but not overwhelming offense.
They're not terrible or anything, but I can tell you they aren't the part of the book that scares me as an opponent, and I'd be be happy to see them as an opponent because it means I'm seeing less of the really effective stuff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Wow, I forgot they now AP2 in the new book now! Ok, then seriously? AP is hardly an issue for them in that case isn't it? lol
It's an issue in that they'll bounce against stuff that can ignore AP2, and against SS termies as well to some extent. Having the ability to make them 3AP with the Ryza trait makes them much better, though it could be kinda awkward to put on them since it's w/in 6" at the start of the fight phase, not the command or movement phase, so you basically have to expose your warlord to use it. Still makes them much more viable, though, IMO.
Considering its 65 to 70 points for 6W, that works out to 11 to 12 points per wound. That's cheap to me, on something that is -1 to hit and can go to potentially 2+ armor save. Plus its on separate models, so if you end up with 1 model that is on 1 wound, you still need to fire an anti tank weapon at it to take off that last wound because small arms fire isn't going to do much to them.
They are great for the new admech secondary "eradication of the flesh" too. Because your opponent will need to kill the entire squadron to count as killing a unit of these vehicles. Same for the Ironstriders. It is far easier to kill an admech tank than it is to kill an entire squadron of these.
The tanks are pretty terrible in the new book, you definitely don't want to be taking those.
Ironstriders are one of the S-tier units for sure. Which is sorta the issue with dragoons. Hard to see why you'd want them when you can just take ironstriders instead and do more or less the same thing, but from somewhere you can protect them.
yukishiro1 wrote: The tanks are pretty terrible in the new book, you definitely don't want to be taking those.
Ironstriders are one of the S-tier units for sure. Which is sorta the issue with dragoons. Hard to see why you'd want them when you can just take ironstriders instead and do more or less the same thing, but from somewhere you can protect them.
I would take both! lol No reason why you can't take both! lol The way I envision them, you just need a squad of 4 or 5 of them in your whole army and thats enough. You just need to Hammer one flank, you don't need to melee pressure the entire board. And for one flank, just one squadron of these will do fine. This allows you to take ironstriders for the other two slots. Seriously, how many ironstrider Squadron do you want to spam anyway? In a bigger unit, they are more efficient when you put strategems and stuff on them.
In any case, a proper Hammer flank won't be just the squadron by itself. It will be supported by other stuff too. Be it shooting or obsec or other units. If you think 200 over points of a unit by itself is enough to power through one flank, that's wishful thinking. But a decent sized squadron of these, supported by shooting and other units ... I can definitely see it.
Again, I would challenge the premise that a squadron of Dragoons will not survive on the battlefield. They can fight anything and have a good chance of coming out ahead. Yes, anything can be killed if you direct enough anti tank shots at it. But in the context of an admech army, will they really be the priority target number one that you direct all of your anti tank at? You got admech flier/s in the air, you got shooty ironstriders which are lethal at range, and everything else in a traditionally shooty faction. Will you actually instead direct all of your shooting at a Dragoon unit that cannot shoot? Press X to doubt.
yukishiro1 wrote: The tanks are pretty terrible in the new book, you definitely don't want to be taking those.
Ironstriders are one of the S-tier units for sure. Which is sorta the issue with dragoons. Hard to see why you'd want them when you can just take ironstriders instead and do more or less the same thing, but from somewhere you can protect them.
Taking two tanks is not bad... if they are in Mars for Benediction Canticle and backed by an Enginseer spamming Tech-Adepts every turn to give them both +1 to hit.
Yeah, I think the principle benefit to the tanks is that they're durable for their points. The Disintegrator can hide, and the Dunecrawler has a 5++. Good for plinking at 48" and scoring objectives. You only need one or two for that though.
Hey, here's a selfish question: what loadout are you taking for the Infiltrators? I'm kind of leaning Power Sword and Carbine, but I haven't done much math on it. The shooting damage seems roughly equivalent so an extra 6" range is a tiebreaker.
I'm also considering throwing the Skull of Nikola on them. If they can hit even two tanks, that's an average of 3 mortals and that's roughly worth a CP. I'm leery of matchups where it won't do literally anything, but woe betide any parking lot that gets charged by them...
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, I think the principle benefit to the tanks is that they're durable for their points. The Disintegrator can hide, and the Dunecrawler has a 5++. Good for plinking at 48" and scoring objectives. You only need one or two for that though.
Hey, here's a selfish question: what loadout are you taking for the Infiltrators? I'm kind of leaning Power Sword and Carbine, but I haven't done much math on it. The shooting damage seems roughly equivalent so an extra 6" range is a tiebreaker.
I'm also considering throwing the Skull of Nikola on them. If they can hit even two tanks, that's an average of 3 mortals and that's roughly worth a CP. I'm leery of matchups where it won't do literally anything, but woe betide any parking lot that gets charged by them...
I prefer to take them with Flechette Blaster and Taser Goad. For Mars, you want the Flechette for Wrath. For Ryza, the Power Swords might be better, since you can give them +1S with that stratagem (S6 AP3), but if you aren't investing in them as a fighting unit, then Tasers are better (S6 AP1).
Nikola seems like a really circumstantial pick. But sure, it can work.
The skull seems like a pretty good pick given the meta. Drukhari are all rocking at least 4, usually more, hulls, a lot of Death Guard are rocking more Daemon Engines as counter drukhari builds, same with some space marine builds and various flavors of dreadnoughts, Dark Angels love their talon masters, and if you face the mirror match then there’s quite the possibility for good use as well
Elder Nikola's relic on a unit of pteraxii with booster thrust stratagem: drop in shoot/relic or do an action (if needed) then fly away to reserves again, without the enemny being able to hurt them, and it can get the skull to where you want it to be...
Aaranis wrote: Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.
And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?
My calculator tells me there is no situation where Dragoons don't absolutely clobber Robots in a head to head.
I mean, setting aside all Forgeworld bonuses and Holy Orders, but counting the unique Skitarii and Cult WLTs and relics, this is what we have:
Durability: 3x T7 W7 3+/5++ (vs ranged only)
Mobility: M8" (has to stay within 3" of Datasmith)
Output: 15x S10 AP3 D3, BS2+, reroll 1s to hit
Durability: 4x T6 W6 2+ (1+ with Doctrina)/5++, -1 to hit
Mobility: M10" (+3" with Doctrina), can advance up to 19" reliably
Output: 20x S9 AP2 D2, BS2+, +2 hits on 5s (Chain-Taser Protocol) to hit and +3 hits on 6s (Omniscient Mask), reroll 1s to hit and to wound, fight first
Dragoons trade 1T for -1 to hit and 5++ in both ranged and melee as well as Light Cover on demand, on top of 24 gross wounds to the Robots' 21. Dragoons win handily here.
Dragoons are clearly faster than Robots, and they don't even need to be near their Marshal to get the WLT buffs.
Dragoons massively outdamage Robots. It's not even a contest. They trade 1S, AP1, and 1D to gain +103% effective hits. Note that Robots output 14.5833 effective hits after accounting for BS and the reroll 1 to hit. Dragoons output 29.63 effective hits. (Which is actually less than what they used to do, but still close to the glory days.)
Here's the math there, in case my calculations are mistaken:
Robots: (15*1/6*5/6+15*5/6) = 14.5833
Dragoons: ((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+20*1/6*2)*5/6) = 29.63
EDIT: Realized I was using 5x Dragoons in my calculator.
KillswitchUK wrote: The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!
This is a good point to consider. It might be safer to run them in 4s so they can move in a 2x2 block. You can also reserve then for 2 CP.
I have no idea how you made your calculations, what are they fighting ? Do they have rerolls of some kind ? I don't understand your formula. Here's my maths (with my wife's help to be honest, she's into maths for work):
With no WL trait, relic, stratagem or anything:
3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T5-7 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(4/6) = 8,33 wounds *(5/6) = 6,94 unsaved wounds *3D = 20,83 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis)
4 Dragoons vs T5-7 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(4/6) = 10,66 wounds *(4/6) = 7,11 unsaved wounds *2D = 14,22 total damage (and each Gravis needs two unsaved Wounds to die)
Also where do you get your 5++ for Dragoons ? They're 6++ base. Each 3D weapons that wounds them means two of these kill a Dragoon, a Robot would need three (I think most anti-tank weapons do between 3 and 6 damage but I'm a bit out of touch with the game).
If you make them move 13" you have a 4+/6++ unless you commit the Marshal but he's not free of charge. Though of course I agree Dragoons have the mobility against Robots no contest. I'd argue that they only need to be near the Datasmith on the turn prior to the charge for the protocol change. Afterwards they only need him if they want to have <Core> or to be repaired.
So tell me where I'm wrong but I don't see the Dragoons "clobber Robots", all I see are different tools for different purposes. Dragoons to massacre elite infantry (or whatever dares having 2W), be a roadblock anywhere on the board and be a pain in the backside to remove. Robots for heavy-demolition duty, anything with 3 wounds or more, more of a middle of the board distraction due to less movement.
Please keep in mind I'm not looking to be confrontationnal or anything, I'm genuinely curious as to your view on the subject (it's hard to convey tone on the internet).
JNAProductions wrote: Minor math nitpick, Aaranis-Robots do better against T5, since they're wounding on 2s. They're S10, right?
Oh yeah you're right, at first I was just doing the maths for T7 and then figured Gravis entered the same category of targets they'd hunt, you're right they'll wound on 2s
I played a match this morning before work on TTS against my buddy's Death Guard to try out the new codex. It was an insane blood bath. Here's how it went down.
Death Guard:
Spoiler:
1500pt, 10CP (I'm pretty sure this is correct, though I may have mistakes)
The Inexorable Battalion
Death Guard Daemon Prince, Miasma of Pestilence, Rotten Constitution, Foetid Wings, Hellforged sword, 185 [Warlord; Suppurating Plate]
Tallyman, 70 [Tollkeeper -1 CP]
Malignant Plaguecaster, Putrescent Vitality, Curse of the Leper, Ferric Blight, 95 [Plaguechosen -1CP]
12 Poxwalkers, 60
10 Poxwalkers, 50
10 Poxwalkers, 50
8 Blightlord Terminators, 1 Flail, 1 Blightlauncher, 330
3 Deathshroud Terminators, Champ w/ double gauntlets, 155
3 Deathshroud Terminators, Champ w/ double gauntlets, 155
Plagueburst Crawler, 2 Entropy Cannons, 175
Plagueburst Crawler, 2 Entropy Cannons, 175
Knights and AdMech:
Spoiler:
Total 1496pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, Ironstorm, 490 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270
1 Warglaive, Stubber, 135
We played a simple Battle Lines game. His secondaries were Bring It Down, Spread the Sickness, and Vital Ground. I went with Engage on All Fronts, Grind Them Down, and Vital Ground.
He deployed quite conservatively and hid all but the Poxwalkers behind obscuring terrain. His shooting threats were LoS ignoring, so I deployed quite aggressively. We used the Invictor Warsuit's rules for the Infiltrator's new deployment.
I won first turn and activated +3" movement and shooting re-rolls for the Knights. The Raiders and Infiltrators were point blank with his army, while everything else advanced. I used March to War to get the Vanguard 15" movement. The Crusader advanced 17" and the 3 Warglaives advanced ~18" into view (and half range) of the Crawlers. His deployment ended up counting for nothing because every unit got to move to their perfect target.
Then the shooting phase started. He used Cloud of Flies on the Blightlords. I used Enriched Ammunition on the Vanguard, split my fire between the two Deathshroud squads and killed 4. The Warglaives and Crusader each barely killed their target Crawler, but the extra damage re-rolls came in clutch both times (I also CP re-rolled the Crusader to 5 shots). After shooting everything else into the Poxwalkers, then charging them with the Infiltrators (who had Order in Anarchy) and Raiders, only a few remained.
On the start of his turn 1, he was down to 10 Terminators, 2 characters, the Daemon Prince, and a handful of zombies. The Terminators shot and killed a quarter of my Vanguard, and the Daemon Prince leapt in to finish them off. It lost 2 wounds to overwatch, but killed the squad to half strength. Fortunately I had daisy chained on to the objective and used the new Acquisition At Any Cost to auto-pass morale. The Terminators assaulted into the zombie brawl and killed everything, though amusingly the Infiltrator aura turned off their plague weapons and the 5++ gave him a rough time.
My turn 2 was basically clean up. The Crusader incinerated the Daemon Prince and killed the rest of the zombies. The Warglaive lances popped the straggling Deathshroud, then they piled into the BlightLords with Pack Tactics and killed 5. With only 5 models on the board, my opponent conceded.
I should stress that my rolls were average to mediocre. We used a significant amount of LoS blocking terrain, and I think he wanted to go second so I'd have to come forward and expose myself. But my entire army moved a third of the board length. I think this was a fairly poor match-up for him anyway. I think if he gets the first turn and gets his buffs rolling, it'll take twice as long to do the damage, but the result is the same on turn 4.
I was entirely surprised by how lethal the Vanguard are; they can easily kill their points back against tough armies. My principle take-away is that I miss having spare infantry to complete actions. I felt really constrained picking secondaries. I could always rely on my 3x5 Vanguard and Ruststalkers to secure 10+ points. I may have to cut back on the Raiders and Infiltrators for two squads of Rangers.
There was 0 chance. The Raiders moved 30" and the Infiltrators deployed <18" away and moved 11". He was trying to bubble wrap the Crawlers anyway, so he couldn't completely hide them or push them to the back of his deployment. The fact that I charged the Poxwalkers was him denying the first turn charge.
If I were to do a core of a Tech-priest Dominus, a Marshal, a block of 20 vanguard with 2 arc and 2 plasma, 2 units of 10 Rangers with an Arquebus each, and a unit of 3-5 Dragoons, does that look good?
I think I’ll be an idiot and use Onagers as my anti-tank, because I don’t own other things, and I’m thinking of using a chunk of 10 Sterylizors too since they still seem pretty killy, remaining the same.
If you go with blocks, go with a manipulus instead. That extra AP comes in more handy. The Marshal has all the RR you need already.
Arc rifles also feel bad RN, they're neither assault nor the range to be useful at anything more than 12" for that extra shot.
Arquebi seem to be dead dead, 2 arquebi dont have the power to snipe anything.
The problem with a large stack of Sterylizors, I think, is that you'll have a tough time actually fitting them somewhere with their ridiculous wingspan...
I don't think the special weapons are particularly good because you lose synergy with the buffs and stratagems. Vanguard with Enriched Rounds are truly insane. While taking special weapons preserves disproportionate firepower as the unit is killed, I don't know if they're literally worth the points. You can spend those extra points on another Ironstrider or something. I could see the argument for Arc Rifles on some minimum sized Rangers specifically to trigger the stratagem, but even that's a stretch.
As far as HQs, I don't think the Marshall is worthwhile to buff Vanguard since their power is in ignoring the wound step. The Manipulus is stronger than the Dominus, but taking both makes sense.
If you're going with huge blocks, just use the default weapons and plan to buff them. Preferably bring a couple blocks so you can buff the largest one after casualties. If you're not, then spam minimum sized squads to capture objectives and complete actions.
DarkHound wrote: I don't think the special weapons are particularly good because you lose synergy with the buffs and stratagems. Vanguard with Enriched Rounds are truly insane. While taking special weapons preserves disproportionate firepower as the unit is killed, I don't know if they're literally worth the points. You can spend those extra points on another Ironstrider or something. I could see the argument for Arc Rifles on some minimum sized Rangers specifically to trigger the stratagem, but even that's a stretch.
As far as HQs, I don't think the Marshall is worthwhile to buff Vanguard since their power is in ignoring the wound step. The Manipulus is stronger than the Dominus, but taking both makes sense.
If you're going with huge blocks, just use the default weapons and plan to buff them. Preferably bring a couple blocks so you can buff the largest one after casualties. If you're not, then spam minimum sized squads to capture objectives and complete actions.
A 1000points list:
I know it is not overly popular in comparison to 2k, but I enjoy playing smaller games occasionally and figured maybe starting smaller with the new codex to see what works? your thoughts?
Spoiler:
My 1st draft 1k list is roughly:
Manipulus + LOGI holy order trait
Marshal
5 Infiltrators
5 Breachers ArcRifle/HydraulicClaw
10 rangers + EDT (no other upgrades)
10 Vanguard (No Upgrades)
4 Ironstriders + Autocannons
5 Raiders + EDT
5 Pteraxii
in a battalion.
Lucius Dogma - to stack defensive buffs (grants +1 to save rolls against 1 damage weapons.
Relics: Take Exemplar Eternity on the Marshal, and with CP possibly either Skull of Nikola on the Pteraxii or Temporcopia on the Infiltrators/raiders, or Lucius Solar Flare (this second relic I could probably leave if needed).
Warlord: Marshal + Firepoint Cache (SKitarii trait) (to double down on defence).
additional WL Traits: Manipulus has Lucius Luminescant Blessing (1CP), and probably 1 more skitarii WL trait on the ranger/vangard alpha (1CP).
Lots of movement/deepstrike options here so can really play to secondary objectives in missions etc. really hard to kill too - without the boost from one of the dogma, you can get 1+ save (roll of 2 still fails though but allows a 2+ even against -1AP), on the rangers in cover. the Breachers have similar against 1 damage weapons. the Lucius WL trait can give 1 unit (i.e. either rangers or Ironstriders ideally) the option to not be wounded on anything less than 4+ which is really nasty againt high strength firepower. the LOGI Holy order can give 1 unit ignores AP -1 & -2 too.
the Pteraxii (with 1 CP) can use Booster Thrust. step 1: start them in reserve. step 2: bring them on as reinforcements and either shoot stuff or complete an action secondary like engage on all fronts (which completes at the end of the turn. step 3: use Booster thrust to go back into reserve at the end of the turn to avoid taking any casualties. repeat for as many times as needed.
the Marshal gives rerolls 1's to hit & wound via aura. put this on the ironstirders or rangers for excellent firepower. the Manipulus gives either the rangers or vanguard +6" range on their guns (stacking with the +3" from the Lucius forgeworld dogma) and -1AP, so you can get rangers with 36" guns at S4 AP-2 and 20 shots rerolling 1's to hit & wound for instance.
most units have a data tether (EDT) or have one built in (like the ironstriders). this allows the Skitarii WL traits to effect units on the other side of the board if needed to remove the need for castling up too much.
raiders harrass characters (snipers) or other small units in the backline, can be used to move-block units preventing them from reaching objectives or your gunline.
Infiltrators start partway up the board so again push back enemny units into their deployment zone. and might be able to do action secondaries from turn 1 (e.g. start in a different zone or on an objective etc.) I would probably go taser/flachette. there are plenty of stratagems that can also help them in melee. and they turn off rerolls for enemny units which is really good. if given Temporcopia then they will nearly always get to fight first too.
Ironstriders can put out a ton of autocannon shots, with the boost from the Marshal, you probably do not need any more heavy firepower at this level of game - the Breachers also have you covered against heavy vehicles. the breachers roll forward onto objectives and target heavy vehicles as first priority due to their arc rifles. the hydraulic claws are great damage dealers in melee too, if combined with infiltrators w/temporcopia could do some serious damage before being hit back.
I think that list doesn't look bad. I'll reiterate I'm of the opinion you want to either go 20 Skitarii for buffs or 5 for objectives and actions.
I also feel like the Infiltrators, Raiders, and Pteraxii are competing for the same job. Plus you already have access to Deepstriking stuff that normally can't Deepstrike. It feels like you're missing an opportunity to dump Fulgerites into the enemy line or something.
Thairne wrote: If you go with blocks, go with a manipulus instead. That extra AP comes in more handy. The Marshal has all the RR you need already.
Arc rifles also feel bad RN, they're neither assault nor the range to be useful at anything more than 12" for that extra shot.
Arquebi seem to be dead dead, 2 arquebi dont have the power to snipe anything.
The problem with a large stack of Sterylizors, I think, is that you'll have a tough time actually fitting them somewhere with their ridiculous wingspan...
Thanks this makes a lot of sense. I’ll probably still take the arc rifles, cos they’re cool and it’s just 2. But changing to the manipulus is a good idea (I assume hanging with the 20 man vanguard?) and taking out the arquebuses.
Would you say 2 units of 5 Sterylizors, or just 1 lot of 5 is still a good option? Or are Sterylizors in general too unwieldy?
Sterylizors are great. Richard Siegler dunked all over Nick Nanavati's Death Guard with them today. They bounced around nuking the chaff Poxwalkers and such. I'd go 10 to maximize the effect of the CP spent redeploying them. A link to the match for your viewing pleasure.
They certainly are right now, but that's the sort of interaction I wouldn't bank on surviving an FAQ. I am really not sure they intended to give out a 1CP strat that lets you drop a unit and pick it up on the same turn, thereby nearly completely avoiding any ability for your opponent to interact with it.
yukishiro1 wrote: They certainly are right now, but that's the sort of interaction I wouldn't bank on surviving an FAQ. I am really not sure they intended to give out a 1CP strat that lets you drop a unit and pick it up on the same turn, thereby nearly completely avoiding any ability for your opponent to interact with it.
Nick's Death Guard list literally had almost no answers to RIchard's Admech. It was a total pummeling! @_@
It was like, hey, who needs melee units! I will just shoot everything to death!
Yeah I’m not sure I want to rely on bouncing around with a disgusting strat that’s likely going to be FaQed for Sterylizors to be good. Are they good without the strat?
Also, when arming Skitarii, would you give squads of 10 (I know it’s not the optimal) Rangers a plasma? Or just stick them with their basic rifles?
I think we can give a special weapon to min squads, and starting from units of 10 using the strats to either make them RF2 or wound on 4+ might be better and cheaper.
yukishiro1 wrote: They certainly are right now, but that's the sort of interaction I wouldn't bank on surviving an FAQ. I am really not sure they intended to give out a 1CP strat that lets you drop a unit and pick it up on the same turn, thereby nearly completely avoiding any ability for your opponent to interact with it.
Armies can interact with it, they will just have to change to do so. Unless they are Lucius, you can still Auspex/EoW/Infoslave skull them. Forewarned can do it aswell with no 12" limit. Dark Eldar can vect that strat so suddenly it's 2CP each time which really starts to eat away at the admech players CP pool. We have a lot of good strats and we use 3-4 CP before the game, when it starts costing 2CP a turn you really have to think about whether or not you can afford it. Any Imperial army can take a Callidus Assassin to again really mess with our CP.
The strat is good but I wouldn't jump to calling it broken. Some interactions like doing actions will most likely get FAQd away but atleast it's only Pteraxii. Imagine if this was Plasma Inceptors. And anyway Sieglar was cheating a lil bit, probably by mistake, the Princeps doesn't get a Phosphor Torch, so he had 3-4 extra D6 over the course of the game.
And really this problem was accentuated by Nick. No screening at all. He didn't even read the Admech Codex. So it was a perfect storm for the Pteraxii. If your not prepared for it, it'll feel broken. Screen them out, bring tools to manipulate CP usage, have intercept ready.
All id like to see is the strat cost 2CP and remove the action interaction. Everything about it is fine, its only 1 unit of Pteraxii.
Aaranis wrote: I have no idea how you made your calculations, what are they fighting?
Do they have rerolls of some kind ? I don't understand your formula. Here's my maths (with my wife's help to be honest, she's into maths for work):
With no WL trait, relic, stratagem or anything:
3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T5-7 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(4/6) = 8,33 wounds *(5/6) = 6,94 unsaved wounds *3D = 20,83 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis)
4 Dragoons vs T5-7 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(4/6) = 10,66 wounds *(4/6) = 7,11 unsaved wounds *2D = 14,22 total damage (and each Gravis needs two unsaved Wounds to die)
These are just effective hits. As in, how many successful hits you land against a target without any minus to hit modifiers. In just this step, you end up with twice as many Dragoon hits as you would Robot hits.
Dragoons have exploding hits. On a natural 5, it's +2 attacks. On a natural 6, it's +3 attacks. These are due to the Dragoon and Skitarii-specific buffs that the Robot does not have access to.
Aaranis wrote: Also where do you get your 5++ for Dragoons ? They're 6++ base.
The Bionics were upgraded for the Sicarians, Pteraxii, Serberys, and Ironstriders. It's 5++ now.
Aaranis wrote: Each 3D weapons that wounds them means two of these kill a Dragoon, a Robot would need three (I think most anti-tank weapons do between 3 and 6 damage but I'm a bit out of touch with the game).
These days, everyone loves melta-type weapons.
Aaranis wrote: If you make them move 13" you have a 4+/6++ unless you commit the Marshal but he's not free of charge. Though of course I agree Dragoons have the mobility against Robots no contest. I'd argue that they only need to be near the Datasmith on the turn prior to the charge for the protocol change. Afterwards they only need him if they want to have <Core> or to be repaired.
You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note, this is the most tryhard list I have come up with so far:
Fast Attack - 319 10x Pteraxii Sterylizors - The Skull of Elder Nikola (-1 CP)
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether
Total: 1999 points 8 CP
Infiltrators to scout deploy to a far objective. Raiders will go to back them up and screen a flank.
Two blobs of Rangers move up on turn one under Bulwark and Shroudpsalm. Manipulus and Marshal B babysit them with rerolls and the ability to fall back and shoot. They also have data-tether so Marshal A can give them cover at will.
Double Archaeopter bomb the enemy and slow enemy units.
Dominus and Marshal A babysit the firebase, which is a massive deathball of chickens with rerolls. Logi will be used to give them even more durability.
Pteraxii will abuse Booster to jump around spitting shots and MWs. Tesla Skull also looks like great value.
Tiberius501 wrote: Yeah I’m not sure I want to rely on bouncing around with a disgusting strat that’s likely going to be FaQed for Sterylizors to be good. Are they good without the strat?
Also, when arming Skitarii, would you give squads of 10 (I know it’s not the optimal) Rangers a plasma? Or just stick them with their basic rifles?
It probably depends on whether the plasma actually has a 30" range or not; that was the biggest reason I only used them with my vanguard.
Fast Attack - 319 10x Pteraxii Sterylizors - The Skull of Elder Nikola (-1 CP)
9x Serberys Raiders - Enhanced Data-tether
Total: 1999 points 8 CP
Infiltrators to scout deploy to a far objective. Raiders will go to back them up and screen a flank.
Two blobs of Rangers move up on turn one under Bulwark and Shroudpsalm. Manipulus and Marshal B babysit them with rerolls and the ability to fall back and shoot. They also have data-tether so Marshal A can give them cover at will.
Double Archaeopter bomb the enemy and slow enemy units.
Dominus and Marshal A babysit the firebase, which is a massive deathball of chickens with rerolls. Logi will be used to give them even more durability.
Pteraxii will abuse Booster to jump around spitting shots and MWs. Tesla Skull also looks like great value.
Neat List //shudders//. what about adding Temporcopia relic for fights last on either the raiders or infiltrators to keep them safer early game? also what do you think about runnning this list as Lucius for the durability buffs instead? having a bunch of better saves instead of a relativly small amount of rerolls when the list does not have that many units (and those units rely on massed firepower instead of a small amount of big guns) might be useful?
Aaranis wrote: Also where do you get your 5++ for Dragoons ? They're 6++ base.
The Bionics were upgraded for the Sicarians, Pteraxii, Serberys, and Ironstriders. It's 5++ now.
Ironstriders didn't get enhanced bionics, they're still on a 6++ but they're both on a 3+ basic save instead of the 4+ they used to have. Sicarians, Pteraxii and Serbyrus are the only ones that got enhanced bionics. Oh and the Enginseer got a huge statline upgrade too.
The Forgemaster wrote: Neat List //shudders//. what about adding Temporcopia relic for fights last on either the raiders or infiltrators to keep them safer early game? also what do you think about runnning this list as Lucius for the durability buffs instead? having a bunch of better saves instead of a relativly small amount of rerolls when the list does not have that many units (and those units rely on massed firepower instead of a small amount of big guns) might be useful?
Instead of fighting first, which is pretty meh for a list that wants to shoot, my thinking is that you have two ways to fall back and shoot, so why not use them?
That said, I've been trying to fit Dragoons into a Mars list with Temporcopia and Archived Engagements, mostly because they are my personal favorite model. That version of the list will use Vanguard blobs (which can use Wrath and the auto-wound on 4s). My guess is also that Booster will get nerfed quickly. That stratagem is too ridiculous. If so, I will probably drop them to break the Raider unit into 2x5 (or just go Battalion) and consider taking an Inquisitor or even a Dunecrawler.
Octovol wrote: Ironstriders didn't get enhanced bionics, they're still on a 6++ but they're both on a 3+ basic save instead of the 4+ they used to have. Sicarians, Pteraxii and Serbyrus are the only ones that got enhanced bionics. Oh and the Enginseer got a huge statline upgrade too.
Oh damn. You're right. I must have just gaslit myself into thinking only the Vanguard and Rangers were 6+.
These are just effective hits. As in, how many successful hits you land against a target without any minus to hit modifiers. In just this step, you end up with twice as many Dragoon hits as you would Robot hits.
Dragoons have exploding hits. On a natural 5, it's +2 attacks. On a natural 6, it's +3 attacks. These are due to the Dragoon and Skitarii-specific buffs that the Robot does not have access to.
Yeah my maths included the exploding attacks on 6, and the damage of both units, because hitting something is cool but it has to wound and damage it too to have valuable data in my eyes, and Dragoons don't perform the same without more buffs.
You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\
On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.
Though I agree we'll mostly use Binharic Override because the system is still clumsy as hell.
Would it be silly to have my Marshal and Manipulus following the block of 20 vanguard around, to give them immunity to -1/-2AP (with holy order), an extra -1AP and 6” range on their carbines, and re-roll 1’s to wound? Or should I have them helping out other stuff?
You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\
On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.
Though I agree we'll mostly use Binharic Override because the system is still clumsy as hell.
If you start switching protocol in T1 you lose the Core keyword on your robots until AFTER the command phase of T2, meaning any time you manually switch your robots you lose Core for the turn when your new protocol comes into effect where you actually want to use them with buffs. Which is either an absurdly huge oversight or just bad design. I honestly can't believe it's intentional lol
You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\
On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.
Though I agree we'll mostly use Binharic Override because the system is still clumsy as hell.
If you start switching protocol in T1 you lose the Core keyword on your robots until AFTER the command phase of T2, meaning any time you manually switch your robots you lose Core for the turn when your new protocol comes into effect where you actually want to use them with buffs. Which is either an absurdly huge oversight or just bad design. I honestly can't believe it's intentional lol
Okay maybe I'm dense but I don't see the problem. Following the rules for the reprogramming;
- Turn 1, I move my Kastelan Robots, I move my Datasmith within 3" of them;
- End of Turn 1 Movement Phase, I start reprogramming my Robots in Conqueror Mode;
- Turn 2, end of my Command Phase, the Action is completed;
- The action completed, I get my Datasmith's aura back;
- Movement phase, I move my Robots and my Datasmith, my Conqueror Protocols are active, and as long as they're within 3" of each other I have my <Core> aura;
All id like to see is the strat cost 2CP and remove the action interaction. Everything about it is fine, its only 1 unit of Pteraxii.
So basically... you think the strat costs half as much as it should and that it shouldn't allow the strongest thing it currently allows...but "otherwise" it's fine?
Aaranis wrote: Yeah my maths included the exploding attacks on 6, and the damage of both units, because hitting something is cool but it has to wound and damage it too to have valuable data in my eyes, and Dragoons don't perform the same without more buffs.
I don't think you did include the exploding attacks.
To break it down: ((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*5/6) = 28.518
In summary, the Dragoons get roughly double the hits, then they get to reroll 1s to wound. They also get to fight first and in many cases, make the opponent fight last. These are all huge advantages.
Aaranis wrote: Ah yeah forgot about those, 1d6+3 right ? Well, 1W is 1W.
It's generally S8+ and DD6+. I guess Robots break even on the durability. Dragoons get -1 to hit, but Robots have one more point on the inv. save. T6 and T7 make no difference when the standard is S8 and up.
Aaranis wrote: On first turn you don't really care for having an aura, the <Core> on Robots doesn't help them survive (except maybe the Magos trait but who shoots at AP-2 on Robots ?) and the other applications are very specificly orientated for shooting. After turn 1 you have <Core> again no problem.
Assuming you pick Shroudpsalm, yes. Not a problem. But in cases where you want to pick Vengeance for the advance and rely on the Mars WLT to give Shroudpsalm to the Robots, it can be a problematic.
In summary, the Dragoons get roughly double the hits, then they get to reroll 1s to wound. They also get to fight first and in many cases, make the opponent fight last. These are all huge advantages.
Yeah if you use 1CP for the exploding 5s, + a Marshall + rerolls to hit (from the Marshal ?) + rerolls 1s to wound (Marshal's relic ?) of course you're going to do more damage, I was comparing them bare bones because that's less variables and it's a more accurate comparison.
But let's say your Marshal is dead or couldn't keep up, you ran out of CP, and the Dragoons are on their own, they do 16 hits on average (because it's 0/6 + 0/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 3/6 = 6/6 so 16 hits). And when you want to actually hurt something in these conditions they do less damage than Bots in the same conditions, in quote for ease of reading:
3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T6-7-8-9 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(4/6) = 8,33 wounds *(5/6) = 6,94 unsaved wounds *3D = 20,83 total damage (against any medium-heavy tank or Knight)
3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T5 or less and 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(5/6) = 10,42 wounds *(5/6) = 8,68 unsaved wounds *3D = 26,04 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis, so 300 pts of Kastelan kill 8,66 Gravis)
4 Dragoons vs T5-7 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(4/6) = 10,66 wounds *(4/6) = 7,11 unsaved wounds *2D = 14,22 total damage (remembering that each Gravis would need two unsaved Wounds to die)
4 Dragoons vs T8 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(3/6) = 8 wounds *(4/6) = 5,33 unsaved wounds *2D = 10,66 total damage
Now with rerolls 1s to hit (both), rerolls 1s to wound (Dragoons) stratagems (5+ exploding) and such, and they're Ryza too:
3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T9 or less and 3+ : 15*(5/6+1/6*5/6) = 14,58 hits *(5/6) = 12,15 wounds *(5/6) = 10,13 unsaved wounds *3D = 30,38 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis, so 300 pts of Kastelan kill 10 Gravis)
So buffed to the brim, charging with Ryza (+1 to Wound), rerolling 1s to Hit and to Wound with a Relic, using a CP for exploding 5s, they barely outdamage Robots that can't reroll wounds and don't have exploding hits.
In conclusion:
The Dragoons have a waaaay better mobility, no contest there, but they need their Marshal with relic within 6", +1CP to have their full damage potential. Their footprint is way larger too, which is nice to roadblock but can be a pain to manoeuver at the same time.
Durability-wise yeah they're about the same with the -1 to be Hit, however they're T6 3+/6++ 6W vs T7 3+/5++ (vs shooting only) 7W. The better invulnerable has its value too.
Damage-wise, they're excessively dangerous to their targets and will likely wipe them out on the charge if the conditions are right. They have the advantage against Bots if their target has an invulnerable save. If you have Temporcopia the enemy fights last, but that requires the bearer within 3", so you're right that the Raider Alpha is perfect for this role.
Robots need only their protocol changed and a reroll from the Warlord to be at their best, so less CP and relic hungry, they can essentially do their thing on their own if needed and still be brutal. If their Datasmith is within 3", use 1 CP and the enemy (save Monsters and Vehicles) fights last too. Also as a bonus they have a cool gun or flamer for the first turn.
So I don't see the dilemma as clear-cut as you, it's a question of tools for the right tasks. Both are a big distraction and can't be ignored, both can wreck stuff easily. It depends on the list you build in the end.
anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol
Vineheart01 wrote: anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol
I expect to be running between 65-90 depending on which forgeworld. Lucius you'll generally see 80-90 (4x17-20, 2x5).
Mars or other ones I can't see more than 65 or so because they are much more vulnerable in that space. So you just have them as trading pieces instead of them being the core of the list. Granted the best part is that the "Core" of even a lucius list is only 720pts
Aaranis wrote: Yeah if you use 1CP for the exploding 5s, + a Marshall + rerolls to hit (from the Marshal ?) + rerolls 1s to wound (Marshal's relic ?) of course you're going to do more damage, I was comparing them bare bones because that's less variables and it's a more accurate comparison.
To be clear, the math only accounts for reroll 1s, and Robots also get reroll 1s. And yes, 1 CP to have exploding 5s and a relic for exploding 6s. The problem with Robots is that you have to jump through a lot of hoops to make them work, but there's not much stratagem or relic support for them.
Marshals by default have reroll 1 to wound for Skitarii Core. The relic lets them reroll hits as well, but a Dominus can give that reroll too.
Aaranis wrote: But let's say your Marshal is dead or couldn't keep up, you ran out of CP, and the Dragoons are on their own, they do 16 hits on average (because it's 0/6 + 0/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 3/6 = 6/6 so 16 hits). And when you want to actually hurt something in these conditions they do less damage than Bots in the same conditions...
Skitarii Marshals can grant buffs like cover in the open and fight first regardless of the distance between them and Dragoons. In fact, in this area, it's Robots that have the disadvantage. You need to keep a Dominus within 6" and a Datasmith within 3" just to get reroll 1s...
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Vineheart01 wrote: anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol
Yes. I think 40 Skitarii in two Patrols is as few as you will see in a competitive list. Much more likely to see 45-60.
We're also a much faster and fightier army than before. Lots of movement tricks, most of our Canticles, Doctrinas, and WLTs are to help us get stuck in as early as possible.
Vineheart01 wrote: anybody else feel like admech is kinda shifting into a horde army?
I feel compelled to run a ton of rangers/vanguards now. Before i'd have ~40 of them typically but now i feel like i should be fielding around 100+ lol
Yes. I think 40 Skitarii in two Patrols is as few as you will see in a competitive list. Much more likely to see 45-60.
We're also a much faster and fightier army than before. Lots of movement tricks, most of our Canticles, Doctrinas, and WLTs are to help us get stuck in as early as possible.
I'll second this. I think +3 movement is one of our strongest Doctrinas. If you go first, Raiders effectively get 30" movement and can still charge. With that distance, you can charge the enemy board edge. Short of serious bubble wrapping, you can shut down the enemy guns, and at no opportunity cost to yourself. If you don't get first, then you don't pick +3" and you use your redeploy to move into cover instead.
My experience with skirting enemy obscuring terrain with Knights can be replicated with the Ironstriders too. You can get them moving 19" with the Dunestrider stratagem, and that'll let you get around a lot of terrain and get unexpected firing arcs. This new book is all about managing power spikes, and it's going to reward bold plays.
Razerous wrote: What I'm most aggrieved about is that Kataphrons can't do actions. Why?!
Their arms are too short.
But with the Techno-Archeologist you can give a unit of Kataphrons within 6" the Infantry keyword and the ability to make Actions if you really want it.
Honestly, being part of Mars, and having a Marshal, makes Cantacles and Doctrina look really interesting. With the +1WS one, the +1S strat and a group of Vanguard charging in, they seem to be able to do a pretty decent job in melee after chucking a bunch of carbine shots into a unit first. Could be a great way to finish weakened units.
Off the top, I think those lists all look good. Between them, I think Mars and Lucius look the strongest, but there's plenty of tweaking that only game experience can provide. I've got the most opinion about Metalica, of course.
Did I post here about the Relentless Wrath + Cold Eradication Knight Paladin I was considering? I eventually swung around to the Fury of the Keep and Blessed by Metalica for two reasons. Blessed by Metalica gives the Manipulus a little more to do (plus dramatically improves the Knight's survivability), and you can get the effect of Cold Eradication through Lockstep Advance if you need it. Relentless Wrath is definitely good, but Fury of the Keep gets significantly more benefit from the re-roll Canticle. The Canticle pushes Fury up to averaging a dead Plagueburst Crawler or Redemptor Dreadnought, which is tremendous. By the way, you didn't pay for Knight of the Iron Cog on that Crusader.
As a general note, I realized I'm uncomfortable playing lists without some small squads for actions. In particular, your Lucius and Metalica lists may run into awkward situations for secondaries, since they can't quite fall back on Scramblers.
I've taken my game experience at 1500 and I've figured out my 2000pt list. For anyone curious:
Spoiler:
Total 1998pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, Ironstorm, 490 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270
2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270
I realized I needed to be more flexible for achieving secondaries. I think the Knights could conceivably score While We Stand in some match-ups. I also realized I probably won't get to dump CP into a squad of 10 Infiltrators, so they're better off being flexible for actions. The 5 Rangers are straight up there for actions, and potentially be an ObSec missile with March to War.
I'm not totally sure about the double Dunecrawlers, but I like their math against cheap vehicle spam like Raiders and that new Necron list. They add autocannons to compliment my otherwise Meltagun based anti-tank. Maybe trading one for another Fusilave is better depending on the meta.
I'm thinking it's a decent list, but the points values are still unsure.
My tactics; rangers hold backfield objectives and snipe characters with Mars reroll. Ironstriders go for flanking objectives and locate new firing angles. Vanguard act as a screens for vehicles, while moving to midfield.
- Belisarius cawl gives full reroll to kastellan robots
- datasmith gives kastellan robots 'core'keyword
- tech-priest (magi) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots exploding 6s
- tech-priest (artisans) perform action to advanced part of order, and gives kastellan robots +1 S
Turn 1: doctrine protector (+1bs/-1ws), canticle shroudpsalm (+1sv)
Turn 2: doctrine bulwark (+1sv/-3mv), canticle benediction (reroll one hit/wound/dmg)
Turn 3-4: no doctrine, canticle (melee buffs)
Turn 5: no doctrine, canticle (roll extra d6 for advance/charge, discard lowest)
I've been thinking of a list for myself to try, this should come to 1985 (based on the reddit spreadsheet)
Brigade - Mars
HQ Dominus
Engineseer
Marshal
Troops
Vanguard (5) x3
Rangers (5) x3
Elites
Infiltrators (5) x2
Ruststalkers (5)
Fast
Sulphurhounds (5)
Sterylizors (5)
Dragoons (4)
Heavy
Neutron dunecrawler with extra stubber x2
Skorpius with energy canon x2
Flyers
Fusilave with chaff x2
This will let me test a huge range of stuff and still have a list that LOOKS like an army. I never played Mars in 8th as I disliked their static style. I'm hoping for big things with them in 9th.
If needed I can drop the extra stubbers on crawlers for holy orders, I'll test this out first I think.
Err, if I remember correctly, a Brigade needs 3 HQ, 6 troops, and also 3 elites, 3 FA and 3 heavy support. So, I think you are abit short.
You can run a Battalion fine with your list. Unless I misunderstand what your list consists of. Ah sorry, I did misunderstand. You have 4 heavy support instead of two. lol Sorry.
) is that they're very restrictive to implement and the buff is laughably minor even if you do bother to use it.
