id heard the seige weapon part, though admittedly form Total War games (the torsion powered catapults were called that, as they "had a kick like a Onager") Ballista (as in our Ironstrider Ballistarius) is another weapon based on similar principles with a different mechanism (basically, two arms pulling a string like a bow, not one arm throwing in a arc.)
its also worth noting that in addition to the latin-based "high gothic" naming common to most Imperials (ie any "ii" ending words, the use of "maniples" as a formation, etc), the ADmech seem to have quite a bit of greek-based names in thier units. things like "Kataphron", which is devrived form kataphraktos/Cataphract ("fully armoured", roughly), a type of heavy armoured cavalry. Or the Sydonian Dragoons, with Cydonia being both a region on Mars and a ancient city state on Crete (the Martian area being named after the long extinct city state). "Pteraxii" is a weird mix of a greek first sylable but a latin ending. "Dominus" was a late roman title, often used by the Emperors towards the end of the Empire (the early emperors tended to prefer "princeps", form which we get "prince" and "principal") Serberys/Cerberus was the many headed guard dog that patrolled the Greek afterlife (and the basis for "Fluffy" in the 1st harry potter book)
the character naming generator given for the Admech in Killteam also favours greek and peusdo-greek letters for it character naming.
I just feel it adds a little to the Admech, helping to emphasise that they are Different, almost an empire unto themselves within the greater Imperium. it also has shades of the Eastern Roman/ Byzantine Empire, which also had this mix of roman and greek elements in it.
Don't forget the Skorpius is probably in reference to the siege weapon named the Scorpio/Scorpion as well. Granted, it doesn't make as much sense for the Dunerider as it was essentially a giant crossbow mounted on a tripod, but I'm guessing the name just carried over from the Heavy Support build due to the base model being the same.
"The Onager was a siege engine that draws its name and concept from the mules of Earth, and was designed by the tech priests of Mars. Who from the moment they understood the weakness of their flesh, it disgusted them. They craved the strength and certainty of steel, aspiring to the purity of the blessed machine. Your kind cling to your flesh as if it will not decay and fail you. One day the crude biomass you call a temple will wither and you will beg my kind to save you..."
The plan is to be durable and try and max secondarys.
The Dominus 3 characters head up with breachers to grab and hold an objective (manipulus for speed, Dominus and Dr D for firepower and forgeworld to get a lot of shots) flyers slow down fast melee targets like wulfen and get me engage on all fronts. Tanks are all pretty mobile and should be able to help with engage on all fronts and attrition. Boat and hoplites are to harass anything that need harassing and help with engage on all fronts.
Assassin is to drop in and either tank a LOT of shots to die or sit there grabbing me repair teleport homers.
I've had 1 game with a version of this list and it was the only game of 9th I've won (none crusade) but some CC would be appreciated.
Problem with Crawlers is that they pretty much always lose out to Disintegrators. I would take Belleros over Icarus and Ferrumite over Neutron any day. :(
Suzuteo wrote: Problem with Crawlers is that they pretty much always lose out to Disintegrators. I would take Belleros over Icarus and Ferrumite over Neutron any day. :(
The 5++ rerolling 1 along with the 6+++ from the datahorde makes crawlers really tough to shift, they can absorb more firepower than the skorpius. every list I've made without them I've always regretted it.
Suzuteo wrote: Problem with Crawlers is that they pretty much always lose out to Disintegrators. I would take Belleros over Icarus and Ferrumite over Neutron any day. :(
The 5++ rerolling 1 along with the 6+++ from the datahorde makes crawlers really tough to shift, they can absorb more firepower than the skorpius. every list I've made without them I've always regretted it.
Being slightly more durable against AP3 is not worth losing out on double the firepower. Not to mention the 1W and non-LOS shooting. Even the Ferrumite outperforms Neutron against Gravis AND Knights, with better averages and less inconsistency.
Haha. It’s funny cause a friend lent me the novel forges of mars over a year ago. And she keeps asking if she can read it if I am not reading it.
So you never know. I got her and my son a box of troops. He is painting up some rangers and she is painting daemonettes. I think she wants to swap to worshiping the machine god instead
Suzuteo wrote: Problem with Crawlers is that they pretty much always lose out to Disintegrators. I would take Belleros over Icarus and Ferrumite over Neutron any day. :(
The 5++ rerolling 1 along with the 6+++ from the datahorde makes crawlers really tough to shift, they can absorb more firepower than the skorpius. every list I've made without them I've always regretted it.
Being slightly more durable against AP3 is not worth losing out on double the firepower. Not to mention the 1W and non-LOS shooting. Even the Ferrumite outperforms Neutron against Gravis AND Knights, with better averages and less inconsistency.
That's fair, the d3 shots is a harsh pill to swallow at time, hence the redundancy, the better ap and d6min3 damage makes it good for taking a lot of marines vehicles down. I do like the skorpius, which is why I still have two in there. With the extra durability it helps with attrition. Is there anything else you think I could change? I'm not 100% set on hoplites due to lack of forgeworld, but I can't think of a better unit for the price.
While I think the Disintegrator is the best pick in most cases, I do think the Dunecrawler with Icarus Array is perfectly fine as well. As discussed in the video as well, I think people are overlooking the Eradication Beamer in many cases as the Neutron laser appears to be better at first glance but in reality is much more comparable on average.
Haha. It’s funny cause a friend lent me the novel forges of mars over a year ago. And she keeps asking if she can read it if I am not reading it.
So you never know. I got her and my son a box of troops. He is painting up some rangers and she is painting daemonettes. I think she wants to swap to worshiping the machine god instead
I have to start reading more often again, as I picked up that trilogy and have so far gotten only a few chapters in. It's actually a rather interesting story.
Slaanesh Daemons is good right now but Admech is way more fun. If she wants to run female models check out some of the conversions out there using Sisters of Battle and Night Haunt to make female Admech. The robes on Sister's models look great with Ranger hoods.
I read the Forges of Mars books and loved them, it just makes me wsh we had more options for our HQ's I love a Secutor like Dahn to surround himself with skitarii troops.
I'm not in the middle Servants of the Machine God. So far most of the stories are ok, pretty much all about knights, not what I was expecting however.
I would also LOVE and Alpha Primus model. It would add a psychic option to our army and being a semi primarch clone he could be a total beatstick. I want to kitbash him but I'm not that good a modeller.
laam999 wrote: That's fair, the d3 shots is a harsh pill to swallow at time, hence the redundancy, the better ap and d6min3 damage makes it good for taking a lot of marines vehicles down. I do like the skorpius, which is why I still have two in there. With the extra durability it helps with attrition. Is there anything else you think I could change? I'm not 100% set on hoplites due to lack of forgeworld, but I can't think of a better unit for the price.
Fulgurites are more expensive, but they are extremely good in the current meta because of the S+1 Canticle. Mortal wounds on the charge, then S6 AP2 DD3, which converts to mortals on wound rolls of 6. Throw in Prime Hermeticon for even more consistency. Then you can fight a second time.
The fact that they can deal damage outside of the Fight phase is also pretty important against Necrons, where that Ctan is limited to losing 3 wounds per phase.
Anyhow, ideally you run them Stygies so you can infiltrate them right behind some Raiders. Next best is Lucius for the +1 invulnerable save. Then Mars for the double Canticle.
Hoplites are just because I can't afford the points for priests. I love to drop them in a drill and charge up (I played stygies exclusively in 8th) but the data hoard FW just makes the secondary's easier to get.
The plan is to use the durability and repairs to help with attrition, engage on all fronts from flyers and then vehicles maybe kataphrons and use the assassin for repair teleport homers.
If I lose the hoplites and boa it frees up 200pts, but I'm not sure what 200 pts is worth having over them.
Without transports priests die too quickly, sterlyisorz could work, it would double the wounds and give me some deep striking flamers. Their ability to tie up units could also prove useful, I may test that out instead, having the ability to deepstrike could help with engage on all fronts if the flyers get removed too quickly.
Yeah. I did something similar in early 9E. It works, especially since you can reserve Prime Hermeticon for the Breachers who will actually hold the ground. I would still recommend Stygies though. Getting there first is pretty important.
That said, Fulgurites are one of the only ways for us to deal with the Nightbringer Shard, so food for thought.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone else left wondering why we are getting a new engine war instead of a codex?
Seems an odd fit
My assumption is that all the armies in the campaign book will have new codexes along side them. Deathguard and Dark Eldar are both getting new codexes so it is within reason to predict that the other factions will too. Because what could they do for Admech in this campaign book that a new codex cant do or wont override?
I cant imagine that it will only have updates rules for Metallica. I just dont see them as a crazy popular Admech force... Mars, Stygies, Ryza all seem like more popular forces to base a campaign off. And I dont think it will be more stratagems, we are literally swamped in strats right now with the codex, enginewar and now this warzone.
If a codex comes out after this campaign book, we know engine war will be invalidated as seen by Space Marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels, will the same be true for this campaign book?
I think it's a smarter move to release a codex with the campaign book like seen with Deathguard and Dark Eldar so we have a fresh start and be inline for 9th edition, instead of having rules upon rules bolted on to an extremely old 8th edition codex, with only Grey Knights being older than us.
So, I have been getting an Admech army painted. I've basically used this as a conversion project, and making an army that "looks cool" to me rather than built to the rules.
How would an army built around a bunch of Kataphron Destroyers, a blob of Kastellan Robots, and 2 Dunecrawlers do on the tabletop?
cuda1179 wrote: So, I have been getting an Admech army painted. I've basically used this as a conversion project, and making an army that "looks cool" to me rather than built to the rules.
How would an army built around a bunch of Kataphron Destroyers, a blob of Kastellan Robots, and 2 Dunecrawlers do on the tabletop?
It would probably do ok, and if you're fine with making them Kataphron Breachers it can be very good as those tend to be a core unit with Kastelans and Dunecrawlers being fine heavy units.
Here's a list with plenty of Breachers and Kastelans that placed 4th in a 32 player tournament for reference:
cuda1179 wrote: So, I have been getting an Admech army painted. I've basically used this as a conversion project, and making an army that "looks cool" to me rather than built to the rules.
How would an army built around a bunch of Kataphron Destroyers, a blob of Kastellan Robots, and 2 Dunecrawlers do on the tabletop?
Sounds good. You can get a lot of mileage out of Lucius with those units.
Here was my list:
Spoiler:
Lucius Battalion Detachment
HQ - 135 [8] 1x Tech-priest Dominus [5] - Warlord, Learnings of the Genetor, Solar Flare
1x Daedalosus [3]
Heavy Support - 500 [24] 4x Kastelan Robot [24] - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Agents of the Imperium - 75 [4] 1x Ordo Malleus Inquisitor [4] - Inferno Pistol, Force Staff, Psychic Mastery (-1 CP), Blackshroud
Total: 1995 points [101] 11 CP
The idea is to spend 2 CP to reserve your Destroyers and Robots to protect them from being picked off. Then on your second turn, you drop them in a safe spot, teleport your HQ using Solar Flare, and lay waste to their army. You can probably cut 3 Destroyers, 4 Raiders, 2 Vanguard, and the toys on the Inquisitor to fit in double Crawlers.
Consider magnetizing the Destroyers so you can make them Breachers.
I suppose that’s a good point. I could probably cut a drill and squad of zappy hands.
I only own one drill anyway so that saves me money. I really wish there was a way I could have all the fun of Mars with effective delivery of fulgrite priests too.
The gunship fliers don’t really appeal to me as much. Mostly because the mortal wound output has been so useful from the fusilaves.
My ideal list would be able to combine everything and then do mortal wounds in the movement, shooting, charge, and fight phases
But I haven’t quite worked out a way to squeeze it all in. I love the bombers, love the raiders, and want all the priests lol. I considered just ditching ironstriders and the Disintegrators but wasn’t sure what sort of fire base to bring
Any thoughts Suzuteo? My local meta has seen a shift. Where as before quality AT was gold, now it’s mass volume of fire to deal with necrons etc but still being able to drop knights, iron hand dreads, Stygies Admech breacher lists, harlequins, deathguard etc. Surprisingly enough I’m not really bothered so much about marines in general
HQ - 205 1x Mars Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos
1x Stygies VIII Tech-priest Manipulus - Prime Hermeticon (-1 CP), Anzion's Pseudogenetor
1x Daedalosus
Troop - 140 5x Mars Skitarii Vanguard
5x Mars Skitarii Vanguard
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard - Enhanced Data-tether
Elite - 340 10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Transport - 380 1x Mars Terrax-Pattern Termite - 2x Heavy Flamer
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
Fast Attack - 485 5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
5x Stygies VIII Serberys Raiders
5x Stygies VIII Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 450 1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
I guess particular to your situation, you would drop the Ballistarii and Skitarii in favor of Jazz Hands. Maybe even go Patrol and drop a Disintegrator for double Bombers?
How many Breachers do you own? You could add a Data-hoard with a Manipulus in charge. Move the Bombers to that detachment.
It's that time of week again, a new video is up. This one took way longer than I expected to produce but it was a lot of fun to make. Comments and criticisms are always welcome, especially in this case as I wasn't sure how in depth I should go with certain things or if the format of this would be optimal.
Description: In this video we take a look at different ways to design a 500 point army list, whether it be a budget list, a midrange list, or an experimental list. This exercise is intend to get others thinking about how they'd approach building their first 500 point list, as opposed to being a collection of optimized lists. Each list tries to have a different Forge World option and unit composition for the benefit of diversity in possible builds.
In the next video we'll continue with different ways to build a 1,000 point army list.
vecuu wrote: Are Duneriders Riders too expensive for most cargo? Is their durability too low?
Are 10man 3xCuliver Squads too weak of a payload?
No, no, yes
Duneriders are still our cheapest transport, and they are pretty average compared to other armies' transports.
Their durability is fine. In fact, they are very good for protecting T3s and drawing fire from T6-7.
3x Calivers is pretty weak unless you're doing some Scarifying Weaponry build. I think the best cargo for a Boat right now is 10x Fulgurites. They do so much work in this meta and pair great with Raiders.
Ideasweasel wrote: Zero kataphrons of any description just now. I know that they and fulgurite priests are a real force just now.
My collection is lacking in kataphrons and the steralizers sadly. Not sure if I want to buy those. And they aren’t cheap
I probably have to be realistic and choose something’s to drop
Sterylizors and Breachers are not necessary. But FWIW, 2x3 Raiders goes a very long way.
Definitely consider Forgeworld Soup though. Infiltrating the Boat with Fulgurites, paired with Raiders, is incredibly strong.
Mixed lists remain impossible for me - the national tourney circuit requires that different subfactions be painted differently, base rims etc aren't enough. And no way in hell am I repainting my army over and over each time the meta or my list changes haha.
So with that out of the way, what are modern pure Stygies lists looking like? I ran Stygies for a lot of 8th (after learning with Mars and then messing around with Graia gimmicks), but I think 9th's shorter board makes it seem even riskier for the pregame forward movement - seems like suiciding stuff into melee a lot of the time, or providing stepping stones for enemies to wrap and trap you (becoming immune to shooting or else wasting your CP), or just to get closer to your guns than they would have otherwise. And does Stygies still use the strat during Deployment (ie before you know who's going first) and then moves pregame (after you know who's going first)?
I've been running this rudimentary Mars list recently:
Skorpius Disintegrator [8 PL, 150pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, Broad Spectrum Data-tether, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Disruptor Missile Launcher
Skorpius Disintegrator [8 PL, 150pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, Broad Spectrum Data-tether, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Disruptor Missile Launcher
+ Dedicated Transport +
Skorpius Dunerider [5 PL, 100pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Total: [102 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++
The sniping is mostly because there's a lot of Sisters players in this city and I need to be able to remove Imagifiers asap. Otherwise it's fairly standard:
FNP Breachers roll up to mid-board objectives with the Manipulus in tow.
Servitors hang back to deny deepstrikes, hold an objective, and score Deploy Scramblers on turn 3.
X-101 walks forward from the deployment edge and scores Deploy Scramblers turn 1, then trundles over hiding and trying to help score Engage on All Fronts.
Skystalkers drop into the enemy deployment zone to score Deploy Scramblers turn 2, then try to hide or occasionally finish off a survivor on an enemy objective, while hoping to help score Engage.
Belleros try to pick off softer hiding stuff or just add weight of fire to priority targets.
Ironstriders stay as hidden as possible and then act as the main firepower battery.
Onager helps out where it can, especially against jump pack stuff.
Dunerider moves onto an objective with 5 Vanguard inside it, who get out for free when it dies or when an ObSec unit takes that objective from the boat.
10 Corpuscarii sit in Strategic Reserves for 1CP to countershoot-then-1-inch-charge anything attacking the Belleros Boats, otherwise can help score Engage and/or fire off some nasty AP2 to stuff in the middle where possible.
The final Vanguard squad is also in Strategic Reserves for no extra CP to provide a small amount of targeted overcharged plasma, has been hugely helpful to finish off 2W marines holding objectives here and there.
The Raiders...
Well, I guess I'd appreciate advice on the Raiders. They haven't been very useful in most of my games so I assume I'm just using them wrong. In my last game I ran them up pregame to hide behind some stuff, then got first turn and so was able to block off an objective from my opponent turn 1. They then immediately died, but they were able to stop them moving onto that objective. I guess if I had two I could've repeated this on turn 2? Unless they were move blocked from doing so themselves, of course. But when I go second, they just end up hiding, being seen, then dying for no reason. I guess I'd appreciate a basic thought process of what you aim to do with them pregame and turn one, depending on whether you go first or second!
The raiders, for the points, blocking an objective turn 1 & requiring non-trivial firepower is pretty decent?
The mobiliy and semi good firepower seem strong.
Just think of a player with a blast-profile unit, be wary of being charged. Now, before you even deploy, the mere presence of these fast mobile units is disrupting your opponents plans.
I’m not sure this is good advice but I can tell you where they have been useful in my games.
Where I have gone first I have been able to move 24” and box units in the opponents deployment zone or restrict movement.
Getting them up and onto objectives if I want to support them with juicier targets. Then my opponent might not have the firepower to deal with everything
Using them as a stung out screen for board edges to stop reserves coming in a preferable board edge
As a character bully for T3/T4 enemy characters.
And both going first and second - stretching them out across the board to create distance between my gunline and enemy melee units.
I had a game versus a slaanesh player who credited two squads of 5 dogs on hammer and anvil style deployment as single handedly winning me the game. Was able to screen out and create enough distance and time to hose him with gunfire
I imagine the more tactically minded amongst us will be able to correct me or add to the discussion but that’s when I’ve found them effective.
It should be noted I’m never bringing less than 10. Often 15 in 3 squads of 5. I’d wager using only 3 might be tricker for them to make their use known
@Pomguo
There was a Stygies list that did okay in a GT awhile back. I think it was a Battalion and a Patrol with Dominus, Manipulus, Daedalosus, and 8x5 Vanguard (with 2x Calivers and Omnispex) in 4x Boats. Backed by 3 Ferrumite Grators and 2 Icarus Crawlers (with Stubbers). No Raiders because the entire army infiltrates and because this was back in early 9E when people did not have any.
A more modern take:
Spoiler:
Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment
HQ - 205 1x Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos
1x Tech-priest Manipulus - Prime Hermeticon (-1 CP), Anzion's Pseudogenetor
1x Daedalosus
Re:the above Stygies list, it’s interesting to see. I’m actually moving away from Ferrumites back to Belleros just because there’s so little high T in my meta these days thanks to all the cheap melta, but my biggest concern with that list is that I can’t see how it scores objectives that well. It can make a push at Engage if it gets first turn but may be stuck in midboard otherwise without a way to get anything securely in the other half, and if the whole army’s pushing forward and nothing’s deepstriking it seems tough to score Scramblers... and besides those two, I haven’t really found anything that easy for Admech to score so far.
What Secondaries would you be aiming for with that list? I’m still fumbling a bit in that department.
I'm not much of a fan of the Ferrumite either. It's by no means a bad weapon but it does have competition in the form of Lascannons on things like Stratoraptors or Ironstriders, while the Belleros brings something unique to the table in the form of ignoring line of sight that we can't get anywhere else in our army at this time.
It just seems like having the ability to clear off cheap reserved objective holders, hiding behind terrain, which we've seen in lists in the form of Sslyth, Death Cult Assassins, and even our own X-101, or even just other units hiding behind terrain, is better than having another big gun.
Re:the above Stygies list, it’s interesting to see. I’m actually moving away from Ferrumites back to Belleros just because there’s so little high T in my meta these days thanks to all the cheap melta, but my biggest concern with that list is that I can’t see how it scores objectives that well. It can make a push at Engage if it gets first turn but may be stuck in midboard otherwise without a way to get anything securely in the other half, and if the whole army’s pushing forward and nothing’s deepstriking it seems tough to score Scramblers... and besides those two, I haven’t really found anything that easy for Admech to score so far.
What Secondaries would you be aiming for with that list? I’m still fumbling a bit in that department.
This is definitely more of a midboard list. You basically spend 4 CP to immediately shove four Boats forward; the idea is to get your Fulgurites activated, and the Boats and Raiders (not to mention Stygies dogma and Shroudpsalm) are there to make sure they get to fight before the opponent does. Once you capture the midboard, you spend all of your CP on maintaining Shroudpsalm and Acquistion.
So maybe Domination or Engage On All Fronts / Raise the Banners High / and a kill objective. Deploy Scramblers otherwise. If you bring an Inquisitor like Coteaz, maybe even Psychic Ritual. Lol...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Techpriest_ wrote: I'm not much of a fan of the Ferrumite either. It's by no means a bad weapon but it does have competition in the form of Lascannons on things like Stratoraptors or Ironstriders, while the Belleros brings something unique to the table in the form of ignoring line of sight that we can't get anywhere else in our army at this time.
It just seems like having the ability to clear off cheap reserved objective holders, hiding behind terrain, which we've seen in lists in the form of Sslyth, Death Cult Assassins, and even our own X-101, or even just other units hiding behind terrain, is better than having another big gun.
Ferrumite is very reliable in the current meta. S6 and S8 are basically the magic numbers right now.
The idea of the list is to completely dominate the midboard before the opponent even gets there. 1250 points of this army gets a 9" infiltration move that is mostly immune to being tar-pitted (Nurglings and Scouts are snacks for Fulgurites) or counter-charged. The Bomber is there to further slow them down, especially something like Plaguebearers, Pink Horrors, or Boyz. In this context, S6 artillery is not very important at all. You need a gun that can reliably kill tougher midboard targets before they reach you.
I will have a game vs Dark Angels this sunday and i would appreciate any advice as it is my 2nd game with AdMech, my 9th game this edition and also the 9th game since 5th edition xD so im still quite rusty on tactics etc...
my list will be this:
Spoiler:
Stygies
Double Patrol, purely to squeeze that 4th HS slot in
HQ:
1xDominus (exploding 6s trait)
1xDaedalosus
Agents of the Imperium:
1x Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
Troops:
3x5 Vanguard
1x6 Vanguard (1plasma)
Elite:
1x10 Corpuscarii
1x10 Fulgurite
Fast Attack:
1x4 Ironstrider w lascans
1x3 Serverys Raiders
1x3 Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support:
1x2 Kastelan Robots
1x Skorpius w belleros
1x Skorpius w belleros
1x Skorpius w belleros
Dedicated Transport:
2x1 Dunerider (for the priests)
2000pts
there is basically not much i could change, skorps and chickens are magnetized tho, but besides this all i have is some more skitarii infantry and a squad of infiltrators
I have no clue what he has in his DA arsenal so could be anythin that space marines/DAs do offer but my opponent can propably be called "that guy" so i expect the worst lots of inner circle Deathwing shenanigans is my guess...
My hope is that, as he didnt play lots of 9th, he will probably screw up on secondaries (by simply forgetting them)
Transport - 380 1x Terrax-Pattern Termite - 2x Heavy Flamer
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Fast Attack - 160 5x Serberys Raiders
5x Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 750 3x Kastelan Robot - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
3x Kastelan Robot - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
Actually quite a bit of pleasing symmetry to this list.
Cawl for the essential rerolls and reliable double Canticles. This list mixes fighting and shooting to make the best of them. Manipulus carries Magos WLT to improve the shooting, but he can also take Prime Hermeticon if I need to fight more.
Two Vanguard in the Drill to do Deploy Scramblers and Linebreaker. Drill is a good Distraction Carnifex, with good durability and S9 Melta and S6 Heavy Flamers. There's always something in the backfield that doesn't want to get melted.
Raiders to rush the midfield. Fulgurites in Boats coming behind them. They are slower than Stygies, but honestly, with the Raiders, it's not too big a difference.
2x3 Robots are the artillery support. 3x is the minimum for a good Wrath of Mars volley. Two units so they can cover two sides of a LOS-blocking feature. NOWHERE TO HIDE.
I’ve been strongly considering 2x3 Robots for the double angle coverage for a while now... especially in the Sisters-heavy meta I live in, they just wreck. And Aegis Mode is actually a solid survivable deterrent earlygame. In some matchups I might not root them till very late, if at all.
Why data tethers on the Vanguard over Omnispexes? A reroll of morale on a 5 man unit doesn’t seem so great, and their guns don’t justify a Doctrina strat surely. But cover pierce means they have a decent chance at chipping a shot or two past a save.
Pomguo wrote: I’ve been strongly considering 2x3 Robots for the double angle coverage for a while now... especially in the Sisters-heavy meta I live in, they just wreck. And Aegis Mode is actually a solid survivable deterrent earlygame. In some matchups I might not root them till very late, if at all.
Why data tethers on the Vanguard over Omnispexes? A reroll of morale on a 5 man unit doesn’t seem so great, and their guns don’t justify a Doctrina strat surely. But cover pierce means they have a decent chance at chipping a shot or two past a save.
Because in the three games I have played with them in the Drill, they have never fired a single shot. One comes out to Deploy Scrambler. Then the other and they hide in some ruins. Lol...
Gona be Honest, i been running my robots in groups of 3 to 5 depending on game size, and almost always with the Phosphor blasters and also the flamers. despite the loss of longer range the flamers get put to good use. huge charge deterrent and also shooting in combat on your turn is nice. I feel like i might keep my robots with 2x blasters 1 x flamer format for the entire edition barring some big changes in the codex.
I will have a game vs Dark Angels this sunday and i would appreciate any advice as it is my 2nd game with AdMech, my 9th game this edition and also the 9th game since 5th edition xD so im still quite rusty on tactics etc...
my list will be this:
Spoiler:
Stygies
Double Patrol, purely to squeeze that 4th HS slot in
HQ:
1xDominus (exploding 6s trait)
1xDaedalosus
Agents of the Imperium:
1x Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
Troops:
3x5 Vanguard
1x6 Vanguard (1plasma)
Elite:
1x10 Corpuscarii
1x10 Fulgurite
Fast Attack:
1x4 Ironstrider w lascans
1x3 Serverys Raiders
1x3 Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support:
1x2 Kastelan Robots
1x Skorpius w belleros
1x Skorpius w belleros
1x Skorpius w belleros
Dedicated Transport:
2x1 Dunerider (for the priests)
2000pts
there is basically not much i could change, skorps and chickens are magnetized tho, but besides this all i have is some more skitarii infantry and a squad of infiltrators
I have no clue what he has in his DA arsenal so could be anythin that space marines/DAs do offer but my opponent can propably be called "that guy" so i expect the worst lots of inner circle Deathwing shenanigans is my guess...
My hope is that, as he didnt play lots of 9th, he will probably screw up on secondaries (by simply forgetting them)
either way, thanks in advance.
So I'll give a short summary of the game anyways.
His list was something like
2 bike squads with attack bike + 1 captain and apoth on bike. Lt. With veteransquad im droppod
2 big devastator squads
1 max size deathwing knight squad.
I had first turn and killed most of his bikes with my castle while the dune riders and raiders advanced on both flanks.
His turn next. So this is where the fun begins, as mentioned before, being that guy and stuff... He insisted on being able to use the combined assault stratagem in turn one which meant he dropped his huge knightsquad 6"away from my gun line. He charged my robots and one knight died in overwatch but the robots were being demolished. Luckily he couldn't consolidate into anything afterwards.
Now: I did choose the rr 1s in shooting canticle and tried to get Los with as many units as I could onto them. Daedalosus used his +1hit ability on the knights, yet after all my shooting, including lots of exploding extra shots 4 knights survived. 1+save only wounding on 4s and having 3w is horribly tough. It took the fulgurites charging them and double fighting to eventually wipe the unit out. He played his second turn and conceded as loosing such a large chunk of his army + most of his bikes meant I would have all the firepower remaining to pick the rest apart while quickly running away on objectives.
Make use of reroll and exploding 6s bubble as long as you can before a new codex will take it away from us xD
I will have a game vs Dark Angels this sunday and i would appreciate any advice as it is my 2nd game with AdMech, my 9th game this edition and also the 9th game since 5th edition xD so im still quite rusty on tactics etc...
my list will be this:
Spoiler:
Stygies
Double Patrol, purely to squeeze that 4th HS slot in
HQ:
1xDominus (exploding 6s trait)
1xDaedalosus
Agents of the Imperium:
1x Ordo Xenos Inquisitor
Troops:
3x5 Vanguard
1x6 Vanguard (1plasma)
Elite:
1x10 Corpuscarii
1x10 Fulgurite
Fast Attack:
1x4 Ironstrider w lascans
1x3 Serverys Raiders
1x3 Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support:
1x2 Kastelan Robots
1x Skorpius w belleros
1x Skorpius w belleros
1x Skorpius w belleros
Dedicated Transport:
2x1 Dunerider (for the priests)
2000pts
there is basically not much i could change, skorps and chickens are magnetized tho, but besides this all i have is some more skitarii infantry and a squad of infiltrators
I have no clue what he has in his DA arsenal so could be anythin that space marines/DAs do offer but my opponent can propably be called "that guy" so i expect the worst lots of inner circle Deathwing shenanigans is my guess...
My hope is that, as he didnt play lots of 9th, he will probably screw up on secondaries (by simply forgetting them)
either way, thanks in advance.
So I'll give a short summary of the game anyways.
His list was something like
2 bike squads with attack bike + 1 captain and apoth on bike. Lt. With veteransquad im droppod
2 big devastator squads
1 max size deathwing knight squad.
I had first turn and killed most of his bikes with my castle while the dune riders and raiders advanced on both flanks.
His turn next. So this is where the fun begins, as mentioned before, being that guy and stuff... He insisted on being able to use the combined assault stratagem in turn one which meant he dropped his huge knightsquad 6"away from my gun line. He charged my robots and one knight died in overwatch but the robots were being demolished. Luckily he couldn't consolidate into anything afterwards.
Now: I did choose the rr 1s in shooting canticle and tried to get Los with as many units as I could onto them. Daedalosus used his +1hit ability on the knights, yet after all my shooting, including lots of exploding extra shots 4 knights survived. 1+save only wounding on 4s and having 3w is horribly tough. It took the fulgurites charging them and double fighting to eventually wipe the unit out. He played his second turn and conceded as loosing such a large chunk of his army + most of his bikes meant I would have all the firepower remaining to pick the rest apart while quickly running away on objectives.
Make use of reroll and exploding 6s bubble as long as you can before a new codex will take it away from us xD
Make sure you draw his attention to the wording on the strategm, it's WHEN you setup using the Teleport Strike ability, not instead of. Teleport Strike still doesn't allow a turn one deep strike. AND he had to set them up within 6" of one of his biker squads. Glad you won anyway as if marines need to cheat to win at the moment lol
Transport - 380 1x Terrax-Pattern Termite - 2x Heavy Flamer
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Fast Attack - 144 9x Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 675 3x Kastelan Robot - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1999 points 11 CP
I am planning this out now because with hordes becoming more prevalent, especially Orks, Necrons, Daemons, and to a lesser extent, Sisters and Guard, combined with incoming DG buffs and the existing Primaris+Gravis meta, D2 is becoming less appealing. So 3x Disintegrators and 5x Ballistarii is not going to be as relevant as it used to be.
So what should the firebase be? I can take any one of the following:
• 5x Ballistarii + 3x Disintegrator (becoming obsolete?)
• 3-4x Robots + 5x Ballistarii (fragile?)
• 3x Robots + 2x Disintegrator (safe, but not enough output?)
• 2x3 Robots (can fit into a Patrol!)
The Robots are much better at killing hordes and high save enemies. The Ballistarii are fast and good at deleting single units, especially vehicles. But I think Drill does mostly the same job, only on turn two. Disintegrators are tanky and have good output, but are not particularly specialized for anything.
So I am beginning to think 3x Robots + 2x Disintegrator?
Recent top list ran max Raiders, and I am thinking more and more that this is the correct call. You can block a massive front with 9 Raiders, and you have only one Obliqua stratagem. As Mars, you can also use Wrath and nuke a character right off the bat.
One squad of raiders sounds risky. Interesting but risky. You not a fan of the fliers Suzuteo?
I’m struggling to make lists that don’t have 2-3 squads of raiders and 2 bombers.
against necrons recently I killed 14 warriors in a double
Bombing run and it was glorious.
The S5 stubbers did the rest with a small bit of help from chaff fire from a skoprius tank.
Totally agree on the -1 damage ruining my and everyone’s fun. Means a lot of our units are now subpar in a few match ups
I have a flyer and am even thinking of acquiring a second one, but I have mixed feelings about it. In some games, it feels subpar. In others, glorious.
Colonel Cross wrote: The bombers should be pretty clutch against any Plaguemarine blobs, right?
Yup. I remember watching a battle report early on where it was Admech vs. Death Guard and the Admech player had two Bombers that just crippled the Death Guard blobs before they could get into range to threaten the backlines. Between the mortal wounds and Seismic Bomb the bomber does a lot of work against comps like that.
Colonel Cross wrote: The bombers should be pretty clutch against any Plaguemarine blobs, right?
Yup. I remember watching a battle report early on where it was Admech vs. Death Guard and the Admech player had two Bombers that just crippled the Death Guard blobs before they could get into range to threaten the backlines. Between the mortal wounds and Seismic Bomb the bomber does a lot of work against comps like that.
Transport - 380 1x Terrax-Pattern Termite - 2x Heavy Flamer
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Fast Attack - 144 9x Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 685 3x Kastelan Robot - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Ferrumite Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Ferrumite Cannon
Total: 1999 points 11 CP
This is coming from my gradual realization to the fact that the Belleros Disintegrator profile is pretty bad against most meta targets now, and there is pretty much no reason to run that over Fusilave with Chaff. I mean, what exactly is 3-9x S7 AP1 D2 supposed to be killing? At least 3x S9 AP3 D3 can put serious hurt on Gravis, Breachers, Sisters vehicles, Guard vehicles, etc.
Anyhow, the follow-up thought to this is: Why not double Fusilave then?
Ideasweasel wrote: Oh. Spring could work. Ferumite is ok. Only issue is with LOS. Would you not just be best squeezing in some kastellan robots and having done with it
I find the profile is nice for ferumite (apart from deathguard turning that into -2 damage lol) but the beauty of the tanks is firing ignoring LOS.
It’s a shame we don’t have a higher AP non LOS weapon like an Admech basilisk
Yeah its a shame we dont have some Order Reductor units, I was hoping the IA Compendium would have some 30k Mechanicus stuff in it for us as Reductor and Myrmidon are still Orders in 40k but I guess GW is just scared to give Admech their 30k units even though SM have all theirs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: I think they are updating the codexes in roughly the same release order? So we're probably going to be updated next year in the spring?
Anyhow, here is another list I was thinking about:
Transport - 380 1x Terrax-Pattern Termite - 2x Heavy Flamer
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Fast Attack - 144 9x Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 685 3x Kastelan Robot - 3x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Ferrumite Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Ferrumite Cannon
Total: 1999 points 11 CP
This is coming from my gradual realization to the fact that the Belleros Disintegrator profile is pretty bad against most meta targets now, and there is pretty much no reason to run that over Fusilave with Chaff. I mean, what exactly is 3-9x S7 AP1 D2 supposed to be killing? At least 3x S9 AP3 D3 can put serious hurt on Gravis, Breachers, Sisters vehicles, Guard vehicles, etc.
Anyhow, the follow-up thought to this is: Why not double Fusilave then?
Problem here is that it is hard to justify having Cawl in this list, but he is pretty necessary to make good use of the Mars dogma.
My guess is Spring too. I think all the factions in the new campaign book will have new codexes along side it. We already know DG and DE are getting codexes so it would make sense for Admech to get a new book alongside it. We are one of the oldest books in the game, with only GKs being older and even though we've had numerous updates the book is very dated in certain aspects.
I’m currently building stuff and have a sneaky suspicion I should be magnetising for the inevitable changes that will arrive.
I hope our codex is either soon or years away.
I should magnetise
Im very much in the same boat as you! I just wanna know when even if it was a rough guideline like Q2/Q3. I have a vast Ork and Admech force but ive been selling a lot of them (rushed paint schemes for tournaments years ago) and rebuying them to redo and put more effort into making them unique with conversions. custom transfers and bases. But I dont know what to build my units with anymore. My Onagers have always had Neutron but I had spares for the Icarus arrays. My Skitarii have 3 of every special weapon (3x3 plasma for Vanguard, 3x3 arc for Rangers, 2x2 trans for Rangers) and other units that have options. I dont really magnetise that much stuff unless its for transport purposes but now that im redoing the army from scratch id just like to know where the codex is heading.
New video is up, in this one we look at a set of tournament lists that have preformed in events. Some are probably familiar to you by now while others might be a little bit of a surprise. Let me know what you think.
Of all your recent lists this one I hope works for you the most. I really like it. (Double bomber)
What secondaries would you go for? Linebreaker for the drill. WWSWF if your feeling lucky and a flexible pick based on your match ups?
I really wish we could have a chapter approved fire sale slash in unit points again (I know the points inflation was bad in 8th) just so I can squeeze all the things I like into 2K.
I know GW wants to speed up the game etc but I preferred being able to fit more in. I’m also aware I’m weird and probably alone on this haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: @techpriest.
Cool video. I like the use of pictures when list describing. It’s a nice visual tool that keeps it tight. Good job
So I have my painted army in a case and I see it there... Sad. Not updated in years. Neglected. Truly a shame but also this stuff is expensive as hell and I'm stretched thin on money, SO! Here is my attempt to update and spend as little as I can and I'd love some feedback!
Spoiler:
Adeptus Mechanicus - Strike Force - Eternal War ( 11CP - 2000PT - 0PT )
Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1975PT )
SUB-FACTION: Mars
Total Command Points: 4/15
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/2000
To get this list up and running would be doable. I have most of it and am actually excited to add the raiders because they look rad. Not sure I can afford two flyers or a slew of boats though.
Of all your recent lists this one I hope works for you the most. I really like it. (Double bomber)
What secondaries would you go for? Linebreaker for the drill. WWSWF if your feeling lucky and a flexible pick based on your match ups?
I really wish we could have a chapter approved fire sale slash in unit points again (I know the points inflation was bad in 8th) just so I can squeeze all the things I like into 2K.
I know GW wants to speed up the game etc but I preferred being able to fit more in. I’m also aware I’m weird and probably alone on this haha
I would need a second bomber to actually play it. Haha.
You can't really take WWSWF when you are playing the Drill. But then again, I am already using Cawl anyway.
I prefer smaller armies. I actually think the tournament standard should be 1250 points or something.
Cool video. I like the use of pictures when list describing. It’s a nice visual tool that keeps it tight. Good job
Thanks. I'm rather happy the list images turned out ok, but in some cases they do end up being a little too compact as I'm trying to get everything on one screen, which I'd like to balance more in the future. The actual idea for image based lists came to me before I even started a channel, as I wanted a good way to present lists in a visual fashion that extended beyond the normal text dump of Battlescribe, though the original idea was a bit different than what you see here, and I do intend to make an incarnation of that idea once I have enough models painted to make it look nice. Though as I have a unique paint scheme, I don't think it would work for videos that are a bit more of a general introduction.
Correct me if i'm wrong but we wont be able to Seismic Bomb DG after their new codex right? Their new version of inexorable advance says they ignore any and all affects to their movement.
Octovol wrote: Correct me if i'm wrong but we wont be able to Seismic Bomb DG after their new codex right? Their new version of inexorable advance says they ignore any and all affects to their movement.
On the plus they can no longer DR mortal wounds
Yeah that is correct, however as far as we know DG dont really have ways of boosting their movement, advance or charge rolls so they wont be getting anywhere that quickly as it is.
Sure the Noxious Blightbring helps with advancing, but DG dont exactly advance and charge. Plus, like you said, the MWs are great vs DG now. Sure they have 2 wounds, but they dont have a way of mitigating it now that we know of.
Kataphron lists are basically anvil and hammer. You got a big mass of durable and efficient infantry crawling toward the midboard backed by more mobile and hard-hitting elements.
I think the big problem is that everyone thinks you need to run like 30 Kataphrons. But I think the maximum should be 20. Beyond that, you are sacrificing more and more mobility.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: So I have my painted army in a case and I see it there... Sad. Not updated in years. Neglected. Truly a shame but also this stuff is expensive as hell and I'm stretched thin on money, SO! Here is my attempt to update and spend as little as I can and I'd love some feedback!
Adeptus Mechanicus - Strike Force - Eternal War ( 11CP - 2000PT - 0PT )
Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 1975PT )
SUB-FACTION: Mars
Total Command Points: 4/15
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/2000
To get this list up and running would be doable. I have most of it and am actually excited to add the raiders because they look rad. Not sure I can afford two flyers or a slew of boats though.
Heavy Support - 300 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1994 points 11 CP
Castle is Cawl, Enginseer, 5x Ironstriders, and 2x Disintegrators. The key modification is that I dropped the third Disintegrator and Vanguard for a unit of 4x Breachers, a Raider, and upgraded my Enginseer to a Manipulus. The way I see it, the Breachers hold objectives better, have better anti-vehicle shooting than the Disintegrator, and they can fight in a pinch. A big unit of 9x Raiders is a ridiculously strong anti-character threat; with the EDT, you can advance and then use Doctrina for BS2 shooting. You can reliably kill Apothecaries, Wolf Priests, Smash Captains, Troupe Masters, Shadowseers, Imagifiers, etc. Manipulus helps get these guys out the gate with 2" advance or 6" extra shooting on turn one.
The rest is as it was before. Assault teams of 2x10 Fulgurites in Boats, strike package of 2x5 Vanguard in a Drill for Scramblers and Linebreaker.
@Ideasweasel
I think I will need to get a second Fusilave. Every time I bring one, it's the first thing that dies. Now, being an AdMech player, I don't mind a bullet magnet (after all, we're all about that threat saturation), but it sucks not getting any bombs in.
I've only used the flyers on TTS (only games I've played this year) but they 100% need to be brought in pairs.
the bombing and seismic bomb are great and the getting engage on all fronts is ace, when mixed with the -1 to hit and 6+++ from data horde they're a great bullet sponge, they'll filled the hole left by dragoons nerf in my list (with less of the "I can kil your entire army if these hit you" threat) and absorb a great deal of firepower t1.
laam999 wrote: I've only used the flyers on TTS (only games I've played this year) but they 100% need to be brought in pairs.
the bombing and seismic bomb are great and the getting engage on all fronts is ace, when mixed with the -1 to hit and 6+++ from data horde they're a great bullet sponge, they'll filled the hole left by dragoons nerf in my list (with less of the "I can kil your entire army if these hit you" threat) and absorb a great deal of firepower t1.
Dragoons were definitely my favorite unit. My Gangbusters list in 8E had 4 Robots, 4 Las Chickens, 6 Dragoons. It was pretty epic.
Watched one of those Eternal Conquerers Necron lists totally dismantle a Salamanders list. The combination of 3x9 Scarabs and 3x5 Wraiths in an Outrider with 6" pregame move and ObSec makes for a ridiculously mobile and strong assault army that just passes through terrain like it's nothing. You pretty much cannot get to objectives first, and even if you do, they will outnumber you for ObSec. So the only real solution I see, barring new rules, is to shoot them off and charge the survivors. Problem is, Scarabs cost only 3.75 points per wound; chewing through 108 of them is really tough.
So it got me thinking: What about switching our firebase to MSUs of Mars Grav Destroyers? Good math against Gravis, Wraiths, Breachers, etc., passable for Scarabs. Glassy, but threat overload is how AdMech has always played. Hide them behind obscuring terrain and pop in (or out) to shoot through windows.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment
HQ - 270 1x Belisarius Cawl - Static Psalm-Code (-1 CP)
1x Tech-priest Manipulus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos, Raiment of the Technomartyr
Troop - 387 3x Kataphron Destroyer - Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Gun
3x Kataphron Destroyer - Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Gun
3x Kataphron Destroyer - Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Gun
2x Disintegrators or 2x Fusilaves? The former is nice for WWSWF and targeting hidden units. The latter for Engage and thinning hordes. Leaning toward Fusilaves because Engage is more generally pickable, and reliable mortal wounds are never anything to scoff at, especially since you can drop bombs on things Fulgurites are fighting.
Ideasweasel wrote: How have you been finding destroyers? Are they doing the work?
No opportunity to play. My area is locked down pretty tight. But in my past experience, they were VERY good. Once my opponent saw how much damage they output, he would go out of his way to wipe them off the board. In any case, it's still relatively easy to hide them as MSUs, and you can spend 2 CP to outflank 2x3 of them--perhaps with the Servitors. If your opponent does not get rid of them quickly, their damage really piles up. And that's the entire notion of threat saturation. Everything in the list pretty much is a must-kill with better output efficiency than durability.
Cause BS4 worries me. Cawl has been saving my bacon recently with reroll of misses.
If and when core shafts the army and rerolls I may be sad. But if they just remove rerolls and improve our units then I’m ok
Generally speaking, in 9E, the board is small, so you can pretty easily get Cawl in range for BS4 if you outflank.
I think what will happen is that all the Troops and Cult Mechanicus units will get Core, and Cawl and Dominus will affect them. Meanwhile, the Skitarii will get rerolls from the Primus HQ.
Cause BS4 worries me. Cawl has been saving my bacon recently with reroll of misses.
If and when core shafts the army and rerolls I may be sad. But if they just remove rerolls and improve our units then I’m ok
Generally speaking, in 9E, the board is small, so you can pretty easily get Cawl in range for BS4 if you outflank.
I think what will happen is that all the Troops and Cult Mechanicus units will get Core, and Cawl and Dominus will affect them. Meanwhile, the Skitarii will get rerolls from the Primus HQ.
I think that depends on whether they got the marine or chaos route. With chaos, they just made all the daemon engines BS3 but they don't get re-rolls as they're not core. For marines stuff like dreadnaughts are still core, so robots would still be core and benefit from re-rolls. Personally, i'm hoping for a combination of the two. I HATE BS4 when there's no compensating factor for it. BS4 in other armies works because the models are dirt cheap to field and there's more of them with more shots. What we have are a handful of really expensive units with BS4 that we have to pile buffs on to make useful. Which is why daemon engines were changed because they have neither or relied on disco lords to do anything at all, which is something GW is moving away from now, forces should be balanced not rely on a single crux to make them playable. We tow the line there greatly, a lot of our good units are only good because of how they're supported, get rid of the support and the threat becomes nominal. They should still be good on their own, but even better with support.
@Octovol
I mean, Skitarii are BS3 and Cult are BS4. This really seems like the most logical route to take... which probably means I will be wrong.
That said, I am most looking forward to new Forge World rules. We have suffered from Early Codex Syndrome for way too long. Given how well Necrons have been treated, I have reason to be optimistic.
Also, how the hell are we dealing with the DG-sized elephant in the room? PBCs got buffed, and they are basically unkillable to our current weapons. Unless we're going to start bringing Neutron Crawlers, Drills, or Las Chickens. Maybe Stratoraptors in some Forge Worlds. Lol.
Cause BS4 worries me. Cawl has been saving my bacon recently with reroll of misses.
If and when core shafts the army and rerolls I may be sad. But if they just remove rerolls and improve our units then I’m ok
Generally speaking, in 9E, the board is small, so you can pretty easily get Cawl in range for BS4 if you outflank.
I think what will happen is that all the Troops and Cult Mechanicus units will get Core, and Cawl and Dominus will affect them. Meanwhile, the Skitarii will get rerolls from the Primus HQ.
Really a Tech-Priest Dominus should effect Skitarii. At any point he can control them and get the most out of his resources, this used to be our army wide imperatives which is now a pretty dull stratagem that effects 1 unit in the shooting/fighting phase. If anything the Primus should do something totally different. He should inspire his men (if we base it off anything like Skitarius with Stroika). Where the Dominus is more cold and see's his forces as expendable, the Primus would be more attached.
Personally I dont want just the standard reroll 1s to wound aura. Id like something unique or new, maybe like some kind of My Will Be Done/Relentless March. As what will be core, well I have no idea. Skitarii are literally and army by themselves and what is core for them shouldnt be core for Cult and vice versa. Space Marines have too many things and core and Necrons barely have anything. The fighting core of the Skitarii should be its Infantry and its Walkers, so Onagers. In Skitarius Onagers play a mass role in the Skitarii War Machine. Not only are they a mobile firebase but they provide infomation to the units and also gather it like a tick and beam it back into orbit where the fleet is. They are essential to the whole data gathering process of the Admech. Skorpius, planes, Pteraxii and the cav probably wont be core.
The cult side of things? They are just such a small set of units to even know what will be core outside of Breachers and Destroyers. For all we know the Dominus could get a totally different ability (he should, being someone that studies war as a profession, reroll 1s to hit in shooting always felt super flat as some hyper analyst of battle) I dont think Kastelans should be core but I can also see them loosing double shoot (seems the direction GW is going except with Eradicators for whatever stupid reason).
Many changes in the recent FAQ drop:
1) WWSWF is now units, not models
2) Bring It Down is 1 VP for <11, 2 VP for 11-20, 3 VP for 20+. So... Archaeopters now give up only 1 VP.
3) Servitors go to 30 points for a unit of 4x. Their Meltas go down to 15 points each.
4) Fusilaves can fly into a board edge and drop bombs before being taken off the table.
5) You can now deploy Archaeopters with their wings overhanging the deployment line. (More a clarification than a change.)
Basically, Stratoraptors and Fusilaves suddenly became our best firebase units by far. The ability to build armies that do not give up any secondaries is a huge difference.
Example list:
Spoiler:
Data-hoard Patrol Detachment
HQ - 80 1x Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos
@deffrekka
Skitarii, Kataphrons, Servitors, Electro-Priests, and Kastelan Robots would make a fine core IMO. Especially if non-Troop Skitarii are still buffed by Mask and Primus.
Heavy Arc Rifles explode additional hits on unmodified 5+ hit rolls. Which in terms of the math, is equivalent to Cawl aura. With a Dominus, it's better than Cawl aura. Works in melee too.
Vehicles also get FNP. So those planes have Hard to Hit, Chaff Launchers, FNP, and repairs.
Suzuteo wrote: Many changes in the recent FAQ drop:
1) WWSWF is now units, not models
2) Bring It Down is 1 VP for <11, 2 VP for 11-20, 3 VP for 20+. So... Archaeopters now give up only 1 VP.
3) Servitors go to 30 points for a unit of 4x. Their Meltas go down to 15 points each.
4) Fusilaves can fly into a board edge and drop bombs before being taken off the table.
5) You can now deploy Archaeopters with their wings overhanging the deployment line. (More a clarification than a change.)
Basically, Stratoraptors and Fusilaves suddenly became our best firebase units by far. The ability to build armies that do not give up any secondaries is a huge difference.
Example list:
Spoiler:
Data-hoard Patrol Detachment
HQ - 80 1x Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos
@deffrekka
Skitarii, Kataphrons, Servitors, Electro-Priests, and Kastelan Robots would make a fine core IMO. Especially if non-Troop Skitarii are still buffed by Mask and Primus.
Id love Kastelans to be core but I just cant see it. If we look at Cult as their own mini faction, like Coven or Wyches inside Dark Eldar, they have such a small unit roster to go from. Dominus, Manipulus, Enginseer, Datasmith, Kataphrons, Electro-Priests and finally Kastelans. If all that is core then that means its the Skitarii side that will loose out on what isnt core which is a bit unfair really. I can see Kastelans and Electro-Priests not being core along with Desintegrators, Pteraxii, the planes and the possibly the Balistarii.
Really I dont see how core should be used with Admech, we never had the problems like the Space Marines where we were swimming in rerolls and auras. We have the Dominus' reroll 1s for shooting, Cawls rerolls all for shooting (if you play as Mars which im sure not all of us do, I dont), the Manipulus and then the odd sprinkling of Warlord Traits from like Graia and Metalica plus Prime Hemeticon and the Omniscient Mask. Other than that we have our healing which looking at Tech-Marines it wont be core locked. Then also we have our Canticles (which I hope get improved) which can give us rerolls 1s to shooting army wide again. So its like what does core actually do for us? Stops our characters rerolling 1s to hit with their guns they barely used? Unless we get revamped with new auras I dont see what would be core or not, as we dont really loose out on anything except Cawls aura.
Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.
What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol
Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.
What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol
Unless we get unique Lascannons or a Las Talon, I doubt we will get 4 lascannon shots from the Stratoraptor
Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.
What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol
Unless we get unique Lascannons or a Las Talon, I doubt we will get 4 lascannon shots from the Stratoraptor
The thing is though, with the weapon rebalancing ours have to be rebalanced too ( except if they just dont bother). Generally and foremost we are the imperial faction with superior tech and lots of specialists, which GW confirmed in a lot of summary texts for our faction, and which is great in relation to the lore. Melta, power weapons etc. got stronger so our variants need to be stronger than them.
Ironstriders and kataphron should imo get 2 and 1 more wound too ( or we have movie marines for the whole of 9th edition)
Quick analysis of Stratoraptors and why I think they're now the superior firebase choice to Disintegrators.
So Stratoraptors have always had solid math. However, people have always preferred Disintegrators. A part of this is model availability. Another is just slots and the ability to use the Disintegrators for WWSWF.
With the new missions, Disintegrators are no longer really great candidates for WWSWF. Not unless you want to give up things like 5x Breachers or 5x Ballistarii. Meanwhile, Archaeopters only give up 1 VP, which is a big deal. Once your army is reduced to less than 12 VP, players stop considering it an auto-take against you. Less than 10 VP, and they won't bother at all.
First up is shooting potential. To make comparing less tedious, I just assumed their expected values and rounded down:
When we switch to Stratoraptors, we get lascannons, which have higher strength, AP, and range than the missiles, and the math is superior against T5 W3, most tanks, and anything that reduces damage by 1; the heavy phosphor blasters are superior to the the mortar against W1 enemies and anything 3+ or better in cover; fewer Stubber shots, but we all know Stubbers are a tax in 9E. Basically, the Stratoraptor loadout is more specialized, but perhaps more relevant against incoming 9E codex armies.
On the durability front, Stratoraptors have 2 less wounds, but they have -1 to hit, reduce incoming damage by 1, and can only be charged by flyers. Downside is that everyone can shoot at it because it's elevated; LOS is a double-edged sword. So if you take a Stratoraptor, you must adopt a threat saturation and redundancy strategy and bring two.
Stratoraptors clearly have Disintegrators beat for mobility. They can pretty much go anywhere on the map, meaning they can score Engage and enemies cannot really hide from them. With the double pivot, they can easily stay within range of Cawl's 9" aura. They can also body block large chunks of the board from charges with their Knight bases. Not to mention, you can switch them to hover to charge enemies, forcing vehicles to shoot at them instead of more important targets. (Also, the Stratoraptor is WS5, if you want to use those claws.) Rage when it dies for explosive mortals that pretty much hit half their army. Finally, you can always fly off the board and pop up somewhere else to shoot, which is useful in the later turns.
All this for 20 points more.
--
Also, the other thing that was changed was the Servitors packing cheaper Multi-Meltas. If you were unaware, Multi-Meltas got buffed. Profile is now 24" Heavy 2 S8 AP4 DD6, DD6+2 when half-range. The clever strategy is to spend 1 CP to outflank 3x4 Servitors (3*2=6 PR), packing 6 Multi-Meltas, with a Daedalosus (3 PR). They come in, Mars Canticle buffs their guns to S9 and eliminates the move penalty; Daedalosus buffs them to BS4; points at a target to hit on 3s. You can melt a Leman Russ with 3 Servitors. So you pretty much can delete two vehicles and force your opponent to redirect fire at these Servitors.
Only real downside is that this eats 3 Elite slots, so if you are running 2x10 Fulgurites, you would need a Battalion and a Patrol.
The servitors do sound strong, but there are a couple more downsides than eating Elites slots. Outflank is subject to screening much more so than deep-striking. You're also paying what... 265 or so points for a suicide unit that will fold under a few bolters? And while you can split the Servitor's fire, you can't split Daedalosus's buff as well. Still likely to do some damage, but only once, and to things that the opponent sets out to screen their valuables.
bmsattler wrote: The servitors do sound strong, but there are a couple more downsides than eating Elites slots. Outflank is subject to screening much more so than deep-striking. You're also paying what... 265 or so points for a suicide unit that will fold under a few bolters? And while you can split the Servitor's fire, you can't split Daedalosus's buff as well. Still likely to do some damage, but only once, and to things that the opponent sets out to screen their valuables.
180 points and 55 for the Daedalosus. I did the math, and it's pretty straightforward to make the points back in a single turn. There's not really any competitive army that totally lacks melta targets.
Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.
What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol
Unless we get unique Lascannons or a Las Talon, I doubt we will get 4 lascannon shots from the Stratoraptor
The thing is though, with the weapon rebalancing ours have to be rebalanced too ( except if they just dont bother). Generally and foremost we are the imperial faction with superior tech and lots of specialists, which GW confirmed in a lot of summary texts for our faction, and which is great in relation to the lore. Melta, power weapons etc. got stronger so our variants need to be stronger than them.
Ironstriders and kataphron should imo get 2 and 1 more wound too ( or we have movie marines for the whole of 9th edition)
But why would our Lascannons have more shots than a standard Lascannon? I can see Phosphor weaponary getting an improvement (its only really good on Kastelans and tbh, they should name the weapon different for them and have the Onager and Stratoraptor have a heavier version) and our Cognis weapons getting a change to make them more inline with 9th ed rules, but no way in hell would a Cognis Lascannon just be 2 shots flat.
Kataphrons should be 4 wounds, I agree on that and our Alphas need there second wound back. I think Balistarii and Dragoons are honestly fine how they are, you dont want them to be too expensive and I doubt 2 extra wounds will save them from the damage 2 and Melta spam thats out their now. I think a lot of stuff just needs to revert back to pre 8th ed stats. Plasma Calivers back to Assault 3, Arc weaponary getting Haywire back (Tyranids and Harlies/Deldar Haywire does MWs, ours doesnt), Radium doing extra wounds on 6s instead of extra damage, Galvanic weapons being AP1 instead of the 6 to wound gives an AP. Galvanic used to be AP4 before 8th, the same as Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and other weapons that went from AP4 to AP1. For whatever reason they decided Galvanic weapons shouldnt be AP1, would it be OP? No. Its all these little things that were taken from us we should get back, then we can improve on things like Neutron Lasers, Eradication weapons, Phosphor and Heavy Stubbers.
As a faction that is famed for its superior tech, game wise we dont really have those equipment. Space Marines outclass us in weapon options and lethality, we are just better at shooting natively. We dont have multiple types of Las/Autocannon/Bolt/Melta weaponary. I also dont think improving our melee weapons will do much either, we arent really a melee army with a couple exceptions like Fulgurites. Would you take an Arc Maul on a Alpha if it was Str+3 instead of Str+2? A Taser Goad if it had AP1? The units that carry these melee weapons are just too flimsy. Id love to see Ruststalkers be great in melee, but they will still fold in combat unless they give them sort of mechanic where after they attack they can move out of combat like some units in AoS can do so that they dont just get beaten up by the stragglers that survived.
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo have you had any tabletop simulator games using mars transports loaded with stick priests?
I know the current hot trend is to throw them forward with clandestine infiltration either as pure stygies or hipster mixed lists.
I just wondered how tricky it was moving them slowly up the board.
I havent tried yet. Kinda wondered if mars lists can get away with being mostly shooty still and forgo the priests
I have played live games with them in a Mixed list.
It's not too bad. In fact, you don't even need to infiltrate them most of time as long as you have Raiders. They basically make it so that it is impossible for your opponent to get the first charge off. The only time you do want to infiltrate them is when you are going second against a particularly slow list. But whether or not it is worth losing access to double Canticles is a big question mark.
On that note, Mars cannot be a mostly shooting army. It really throws away the primary draw of Mars, which is excellent versatility and the ability to access higher strength values army wide. Consistently being able to use that second Canticles is worth 2 CP every turn. Armywide cover in the open, +1S to Heavy and no infantry move penalty, +1S to melee, and reroll melee are all immensely valuable. You must aim to take full advantage of both melee and shooting.
That’s fair advice. I just wish we had big points drops as Cawl is so good but at 200 points he is expensive. I’m greedy but would love some points drops across the board to help me squeeze everything in lol
Ideasweasel wrote: That’s fair advice. I just wish we had big points drops as Cawl is so good but at 200 points he is expensive. I’m greedy but would love some points drops across the board to help me squeeze everything in lol
200 points is a bargain for what he gives us. Again, think of an extra Canticle as being worth 2 CP per turn.
Suzuteo wrote: I think Dragoons need to explode on an unmodified 5 or 6. They got nerfed way too hard.
Id like to see Dragoons get an extra attack and to have their incense be active all the time in shooting and melee instead of having to pay a CP for it to work in melee. I have literally no clue what they will do to the Jezzail, no one has ever taken it ever in the history of Skitarii being an army. It feels more like a weapon the Ballistarii would use but even then thats underwhelming too. Another change would to also have the Phosphor Serpenta be free instead of being a 2pt upgrade youd only take when you have a handful of pts left over at the end of list building. They could also give it an advance and charge mechanic built into it so that feels more unique to the Ballistarii. Exploding 5s I dont think will happen, I havent seen any Tesla style weapon in 9th gone that way, have them at 4 attacks or even 5 on the charge with advance and charge too and just a flat -1 to hit always. They wont be as great as their golden 4+ exploding Tesla days but its a step towards something good.
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Ideasweasel wrote: That’s fair advice. I just wish we had big points drops as Cawl is so good but at 200 points he is expensive. I’m greedy but would love some points drops across the board to help me squeeze everything in lol
I think Cawl is probably worth 180-190pts as it is now in the current state of the game. He is great but over time he as deminished in the wider world of characters. He will probably see some changes come our codex, maybe he will finally find a Conversion Field in his pile of junk But 200pts now is fine for what he does for us currently. However he is very much an 8th edition character with his rules, profile and wargear. Its a testament to how well we have aged over the years that we can still be viable in the meta, we just have a few core issues from our old codex, something I doubt the campaign book would fix.
I agree with you that Id love some pts drops, we kinda got kicked pretty hard when our 9th ed pts came out, more so than other armies did except like Dark Eldar haha. We still have the eternal struggle of Ruststalkers and Infiltrators just being borderline bad, though they can be great when used well. Then with Skystalkers and Sterylizors added to the Sicarian mix we have a whole mess of kind of expensive and not that impactful "elite" flimsy infantry that all fight for the same role.
I would disagree with this, the Dragoons aren't great right now but they're not unplayable. I think the biggest issue is with all of the changes they compete with Fulgurites a bit too much as they can no longer provide the extreme explosive alpha strikes as we've seen in the past. I can imagine that as the meta evolves someone will find some use for Dragoons that we're not expecting, as we recently saw Melta-Servitors see action, which I didn't expect.
operkoi wrote: How viable are kataphrons (both flavours) right now? Thinking of making an elite army with them as the bulk of my troop choices.
*edit: meant to say kataphron servitors
If you're looking at Breachers, they're rather good and can build in a ton of different directions. The Destroyers on the other hand are ok but have so far failed to show up in high ranking tournament finishes.
If you're interested, check out my video looking at Kataphron lists as I try to show a good mix of cool lists that have done well within tournaments. The previous video about overall 2,000 point lists includes another variation of Kataphrons, but it's more focused on non-Kataphron lists:
I would disagree with this, the Dragoons aren't great right now but they're not unplayable. I think the biggest issue is with all of the changes they compete with Fulgurites a bit too much as they can no longer provide the extreme explosive alpha strikes as we've seen in the past. I can imagine that as the meta evolves someone will find some use for Dragoons that we're not expecting, as we recently saw Melta-Servitors see action, which I didn't expect.
operkoi wrote: How viable are kataphrons (both flavours) right now? Thinking of making an elite army with them as the bulk of my troop choices.
*edit: meant to say kataphron servitors
If you're looking at Breachers, they're rather good and can build in a ton of different directions. The Destroyers on the other hand are ok but have so far failed to show up in high ranking tournament finishes.
If you're interested, check out my video looking at Kataphron lists as I try to show a good mix of cool lists that have done well within tournaments. The previous video about overall 2,000 point lists includes another variation of Kataphrons, but it's more focused on non-Kataphron lists:
I tend to have the same opinion with them. I think they are just a little out dated and need some love to bring them inline with 9th edition. The Lances are fine, its more of the platform, they could do with an extra attack and some more defense, be it a -1 to hit in melee in addition to shooting that isnt tied to CP. Fulgurites are bound to get changed when we get a new codex, I very much doubt they will get access to a 2++ anymore and I have a strong feeling that their 3++ will go to a 4++. They could have some buffs too but I think they wont be the same unit as they are now. As Admech we have quite a few melee specialists in the army but they all kind of step on each others toes a little bit. Ruststalkers, Infiltrators, Sterylizors, Dragoons, Kastelans with fists and Fulgurites. The first 3 are very close to each other in what they do, 1 is cheap with a chance of MWs, another has a greater volume of attacks any a (crap) debuff aura and the last has superior mobility, ok flamers and ok melee. However none are melee super stars. Dragoons had a niche, and that was they were actually alright at tackling MEQ and light vehicles in melee but thats dropped off now due to Taser becoming unmodified 6s. Kastelans have always had a weird thing going with fists. With Conqueror Protocol them look pretty threatening but damn do they give up a lot for it. 115pts is pushing a Dreadnought/Deffdread cost and they have only just more attacks but arent as durable or as accurate. Yeah they can be in a big squad with Prime Hermeticon rerolls but thats a lot of pts for not really that much impact.
Then there is Fulgurites. Relatively well priced, MW generation like Ruststalkers, durable, pretty good melee weapons outside of MWs, can be pretty quick when used with transports and they arent really in a competitive force org slot with them being Elites. The only things that make me not use them is 1.) they arent Skitarii and 2.) their models are ugly as hell in my eyes.
deffrekka wrote: another has a greater volume of attacks any a (crap) debuff aura
How the hell did I miss that for so long?! I mostly play against marines and the new way moral works they're a lot more vunerble to moral, this is making me think they have a bit of extra value I didn't realise.
deffrekka wrote: another has a greater volume of attacks any a (crap) debuff aura
How the hell did I miss that for so long?! I mostly play against marines and the new way moral works they're a lot more vunerble to moral, this is making me think they have a bit of extra value I didn't realise.
Probably because they didnt live long enough to use it or when you could use it nothing would happen anyway. Morale isnt that big in 9th ed, it used to be this prior to 8th "All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Initiative and Leadership." Not only did the aura drop 3" but it lost all the best parts! Also, before this 9th ed codex for Marines, they could reroll their Morale anyway so it wasnt that huge. I used Infiltrators quite aggressively throughout last edition (I liked Stubcarbines and Power Swords as hunter killer units, I played as Stygies for the most part so no Wrath of Mars) and Im pretty certain the -1 Leadership did nothing the entire time I used them, especially in situations where they actually survived a combat and beat the opponent pretty soundly.
A -1 to hit aura would be fine on them or have them effect attrition so when the enemy do fail Morale its more inpactful.
2++ on fulgrites I could see them changing but capping out at 4++?
I hope our codex isn’t just a series of nerfs. That would corrupt my cogitators
We are only survivable on the strength of a handful of units and some engine war buffs. If they gut what’s good that could be rough.
My biggest hope is whoever wrote the OG section on relics and warlord traits was soundly thrashed and made an example of in the GW dungeon. Codex 2.0 having fun and flavourful traits to pick needs to happen
I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now
0XFallen wrote: I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now
We used to be the toys over boys army. Then WarCon came around, and it was toys WITH boys.
I would love for relics to be ridiculously good again. Improve the profiles of Dominus (+1 attack) and Manipulus (+1 WS, wound, attack) and give us better WLTs and stratagems so that it would justify shelling out for lots of relics on 3x Dominii and/or Manipulii.
0XFallen wrote: I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now
If you've been keeping up with the Death Guard Codex; That's the kind of codex I want, there's so much flavour and thought gone into that codex, at least on the surface. Could be more hidden nerfs yet like with Necrons lol
I too also decided on Admech because of how interesting their rules and units were, I don't want an army anyone can pick up and faceroll to victory like Marines. I want quirky interesting ways to play that might not always work but when they do they're devastating.
Admech are pretty blessed right now. We've legit got 4 sub par units, 2 mediocre units and the rest range from good to great. There are literally 3+ play styles for the army and sub groups of those styles are insanely diverse. I only expect the horses to get nerfed and possible breachers nerfed thru changes (i.e. 6+ exploding shots). Overall Admech are in a weird spot. They are an army that isn't blowing up tables but is expensive. So that means GW generally leaves it alone. Not realizing that the admech cost is why they haven't really been an army of the month.
I generally consider admech a top 3 codex and depending on how you rate it it could be anywhere from 1-3. I'm happy with what we have but given how much better every army has gotten with their 9th ed codex I have high hopes for ours.
Hulksmash wrote: Admech are pretty blessed right now. We've legit got 4 sub par units, 2 mediocre units and the rest range from good to great. There are literally 3+ play styles for the army and sub groups of those styles are insanely diverse. I only expect the horses to get nerfed and possible breachers nerfed thru changes (i.e. 6+ exploding shots). Overall Admech are in a weird spot. They are an army that isn't blowing up tables but is expensive. So that means GW generally leaves it alone. Not realizing that the admech cost is why they haven't really been an army of the month.
I generally consider admech a top 3 codex and depending on how you rate it it could be anywhere from 1-3. I'm happy with what we have but given how much better every army has gotten with their 9th ed codex I have high hopes for ours.
I mean, yes we are A tier right now, just below marines. I dont really care too much if our army is good or not in that sense ( as long as its not too high or low). Id agree though that I hope our codex will have a lot of flavor and thought put into it. Fluff, quirky, a feeling of superior and weird tech.
Looking like mixed detachments are on their way out. DG codex has the same rules for battleforged detachments marines and necrons have, no more than one chapter/fw/dynasty/plague company per detachment.
Ideasweasel wrote: 2++ on fulgrites I could see them changing but capping out at 4++?
I hope our codex isn’t just a series of nerfs. That would corrupt my cogitators
We are only survivable on the strength of a handful of units and some engine war buffs. If they gut what’s good that could be rough.
My biggest hope is whoever wrote the OG section on relics and warlord traits was soundly thrashed and made an example of in the GW dungeon. Codex 2.0 having fun and flavourful traits to pick needs to happen
How many units have a 3++ save in 9th edition though? There has been a pretty big culling of 3++ invuns down to a 4++ (and a splash of added bonuses like +1 armour save). From the top of my head all I can think of is Vicatrix Guard who kept their 3++, Harlies with access to their stratagem that adds +1, ourselves with Fulgurites, Magnus with a psychic power. Its becoming increasingly rare and we are seeing more limitations on modifiers too for example Sisters being capped at a 4++ and Lucius' Canticle having the same 4++ cap. That doesnt mean they cant buff Electro-Priests in some other way, like making them 2 wounds each (like seriously they are beefy boys, larger than most 1 wound infantry in the game) and just a 4++ base instead of having to siphon it first.
Looking at the Deathguard Codex Im really hoping for that level of care and power. They had a revamp. Whilst the units might have the same role, the army feels different. Granted we will probably see the same stuff where are Skitarii's loadout is now fixed just like Plague Marines and Blightlords though I hope thats not the case, ive been through enough with my Orks loosing things throughout the editions.
Canticles should be vastly improved, we should have some type of rule that makes us crazy around objectives, they could very well make Acquisition at all Costs just a base rule, it wouldnt be overpowered. Looking at Deathguard, they are swimming in army rules where as we have 2, Canticles and Obsec on troops. Our Warlord Traits I can see becoming fairly unique too, Space Wolves have their Sagas, Deathguard have theirs that can effect Contagions and I believe they were testing the waters with Holy Orders for us. Having a series of Warlord Traits that are adaptable would be pretty unique to us as they are already from Engine War. I really reaaaaalllly want worth while and flavourful relics. Im fed up of just taking the Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or the Solar Flare. We have 6 melee relics, 2 ranged relics and they are all kinda bad or not worthwhile on our characters because they just arent combat characters.
Honestly give us a Deathguard/Necron style codex and ill be happy, I dont care about being Marine level of silliness.
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0XFallen wrote: I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now
I fully agree, id like to see use return to our pre 8th edition days, we had the best plasma, the best anti tank, great anti infantry firepower and a powerful first turn with our movement benefits (if you were Skitarii, this is the way ), now we have transports but id like to see that mobility come back. But like you said we feel like Guard/Scions with a bit of flair now. We lost some pretty key things that defined us. Stasis/Conversion fields went poof, we lost Scout, Relentless and Crusader then on top of that our Onager is now just a worst Leman Russ. Every vehicle ignores the heavy penalty and most heavy battle tanks have some extra rule where as the Onager doesnt, Fire Prisms, Gunwagons, Leman Russes. These all fire their turret weapons twice, the Repulsor Execution lost that but gained a +1 to hit with it. What is unique about the Onager? an Invun? Not exactly fair when the other tanks have either more wounds or toughness. Then why doesnt our Skorpius and Archaeoptors have atleast a 6++? Just breaks the pattern haha.
Tech-Priests should be beasts in their field of expertise. A Dominus is all about war and battle, but he isnt great at combat or shooting. A Manipulus is about the motive force, but he can only effect our units when everything has the motive force so he should have some options to debuff enemy units too. I could go on but the jist of it is they should go crazy with flavour and uniqueness. Just look at Deathguard, they are a completely different army than their 8th ed counterpart.
Not sure how many of you have been gaming recently. My games seem to just be on tabletop simulator just now, which is a shame. I've been doing the alpha league - a mini tournament league of sorts and made it to the play off's with mars. (watch me lose my next game)
So far bombers and raiders have been the MVP's in the last 6 games. either unit pretty much single handedly winning it for me.
Dark angels, Slaanesh, Eldar, Chaos Knights, Tyranids, Iron hands for reference
Not sure how many of you have been gaming recently. My games seem to just be on tabletop simulator just now, which is a shame. I've been doing the alpha league - a mini tournament league of sorts and made it to the play off's with mars. (watch me lose my next game)
So far bombers and raiders have been the MVP's in the last 6 games. either unit pretty much single handedly winning it for me.
Dark angels, Slaanesh, Eldar, Chaos Knights, Tyranids, Iron hands for reference
Yeah. If I had to go to a tourney tomorrow, I would bring the most recent iteration of my Pure Mars list. It basically drops Disintegrators to deny Bring It Down, and it replaces them with Grav Destroyers and double Fusilaves.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment
HQ - 270 1x Belisarius Cawl - Static Psalm-Code (-1 CP)
1x Tech-priest Manipulus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos, Raiment of the Technomartyr
Troop - 387 3x Kataphron Destroyer - Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
3x Kataphron Destroyer - Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
3x Kataphron Destroyer - Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
Note that Fulgurites in Boats are still our primary win condition though. They kill all sorts of infantry because of the sheer number of mortals they output. They also are really hard to remove with the Acquisition save. And Ballistarii are our kills-everything option. Even Mortarion goes down in two turns of Wrath+Pattern Ballistarii. That said, I probably will need to change over to Lascannons or something... maybe Chicken Meme list actually will be a thing??
I've just been trying tothink about what units compare to dragoons...like what other army has a unit like that? Singing spears? Custodes? We dont use it at the moment because we relied on volume of attacks rather than quality of attacks that they dont have any more.
So what would make dragoons good again? What would we want them to do? For me i want a unit like raiders but are actually a force in combat.
Maybe -2 or -3 ap 2dm but 3-4dm on a charge or something give them some impact. At the moment they're weak to counter combat but dont have the impact to do what they need to when they charge.
Giving them ap-2, D3 and damage spilling over on the charge could be cool. They are also really squishy. Compare it to a sentinel, or the new primaris bikes ( which imo should just have less wounds attacks, speed the list goes on), where was I going? Oh yeah, dragoons are pretty big so why do they only have 6 wounds? I get that they are spindly, but they dont have increased movement for losing on armor, wounds, toughness. 10" is average I believe regarding vehicles.
0XFallen wrote: Giving them ap-2, D3 and damage spilling over on the charge could be cool. They are also really squishy. Compare it to a sentinel, or the new primaris bikes ( which imo should just have less wounds attacks, speed the list goes on), where was I going? Oh yeah, dragoons are pretty big so why do they only have 6 wounds? I get that they are spindly, but they dont have increased movement for losing on armor, wounds, toughness. 10" is average I believe regarding vehicles.
I'm ok with their toughness if when they get to actually charge they obliterate whatever they hit. Like Khorne Berzerkers, for example, they are pretty easy to dispatch, but you let them get in your face and you're in for a world of hurt. It also amuses me that the literal definition of a dragoon is mounted cavalry yet they are vehicles.
What I think would be a cool and dynamic ability would be that they never actually end up IN combat. A constantly moving hit & run unit that charges as if it can fly. For example, they behave like any other ground-based unit, but when they charge whatever charge roll they make is doubled, but all models in the unit have to pass over and be able to move all the way through the unit they selected for the charge to be positioned on the other side outside of engagement range. Like a lance should be used, you don't stay in combat with a lance, ever.
It would allow them to remain as light vehicle's that are hard to hit, but still allow them to engage a target with their lances without them just getting destroyed to counter-melee, which is what happens now. It also gives them a powerful tool for breaking through screening units.
Hey friends, how do AdMech stack up vs the new DG codex? I’m fighting my friend tomorrow (I’m AdMech, he’s DG) and I’m curious if it’s an okay matchup for friendly games?
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, how do AdMech stack up vs the new DG codex? I’m fighting my friend tomorrow (I’m AdMech, he’s DG) and I’m curious if it’s an okay matchup for friendly games?
Id say they are slow but tough, so raiders are a must have. He wont be able to get onto objectives for at least 2 turns
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, how do AdMech stack up vs the new DG codex? I’m fighting my friend tomorrow (I’m AdMech, he’s DG) and I’m curious if it’s an okay matchup for friendly games?
He got totally destroyed. Even after vastly up-gunning his army with Las Chickens and Ferrumite Cannons, he was just not able to remove models quickly enough. I think he needs to bring more Fulgurites and more firepower, such as Robots, Grave Destroyers, or Drills.
That said, Siegler did not play very well. He played extremely passively. Pretty much threw away his Raiders and Corpuscarii without moving up his threats, and he did not use his CP much at all; he had 8 by the end of the game. I chalk this up to it being a new list.
We both didn’t roll particularly well, but I have a feeling maybe I was built to handle him a little better than he was me. We’ll play more games soon and I’ll let you know how they go.
There's vague rumors floating around about new AdMech rules, possibly associated with a campaign? I'd be interested in hearing more if there are more concrete sources.
bmsattler wrote: There's vague rumors floating around about new AdMech rules, possibly associated with a campaign? I'd be interested in hearing more if there are more concrete sources.
The best guess is that our codex will come in the Spring lineup. This is because they seem to be releasing the stuff that they spoiled last year in the 9E preview first: https://youtu.be/2nlnfxNgcAg
So Sisters, DG, Drukhari, AdMech, Orks.
And yeah, Marines. Lots of Marines. Just when you think they are done, another pops up.
bmsattler wrote: There's vague rumors floating around about new AdMech rules, possibly associated with a campaign? I'd be interested in hearing more if there are more concrete sources.
The best guess is that our codex will come in the Spring lineup. This is because they seem to be releasing the stuff that they spoiled last year in the 9E preview first: https://youtu.be/2nlnfxNgcAg
So Sisters, DG, Drukhari, AdMech, Orks.
And yeah, Marines. Lots of Marines. Just when you think they are done, another pops up.
Could also be the new flashpoint in February's WD, we're involved in that along with DG + others.
That Skitarii character is definitely on the way though, they've teased it twice in videos now. Cant be far off now surely! lol
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, how do AdMech stack up vs the new DG codex? I’m fighting my friend tomorrow (I’m AdMech, he’s DG) and I’m curious if it’s an okay matchup for friendly games?
He got totally destroyed. Even after vastly up-gunning his army with Las Chickens and Ferrumite Cannons, he was just not able to remove models quickly enough. I think he needs to bring more Fulgurites and more firepower, such as Robots, Grave Destroyers, or Drills.
I watched that batrep too and honestly I think Admech stood a chance it was just Siegler playing them weird, worried too much about the DG that he just shut off and stayed back. On one of the turns it looked like the Ballistarii could get the drop on one of the PBCs early on but Siegler decided to hide them most of the game up until they pretty much died. He could of used Dunestrider and the Manipulus to launch himself to an extreme angle to get some line of sight, popped Protector and Pattern Identification and would of most likely blasted 1 of the PBCs off.
As you said he has 8CP at the end of the game and he didn't really use them except for like 1 turn. To me it feels like he was being too worried about the DG which is fine, but he had the speed and firepower to do something about it but he decided to play the waiting game with 2 PBCs which I think was a mistake.
That said, Siegler did not play very well. He played extremely passively. Pretty much threw away his Raiders and Corpuscarii without moving up his threats, and he did not use his CP much at all; he had 8 by the end of the game. I chalk this up to it being a new list.
I just had a really terrible thought. The new Death Guard codex brought with it a really annoying weapon options list for Plague Marines, based on what they get in their box.
Do... do you think we’re gonna get wrecked by that? No more 3 of the same gun in a unit of 10, but 1 of each type? God... please don’t.
Tiberius501 wrote: I just had a really terrible thought. The new Death Guard codex brought with it a really annoying weapon options list for Plague Marines, based on what they get in their box.
Do... do you think we’re gonna get wrecked by that? No more 3 of the same gun in a unit of 10, but 1 of each type? God... please don’t.
That would totally destroy the current arquebus. I hope not, its weird that they did that for them but not SM
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey friends, how do AdMech stack up vs the new DG codex? I’m fighting my friend tomorrow (I’m AdMech, he’s DG) and I’m curious if it’s an okay matchup for friendly games?
He got totally destroyed. Even after vastly up-gunning his army with Las Chickens and Ferrumite Cannons, he was just not able to remove models quickly enough. I think he needs to bring more Fulgurites and more firepower, such as Robots, Grave Destroyers, or Drills.
I watched that batrep too and honestly I think Admech stood a chance it was just Siegler playing them weird, worried too much about the DG that he just shut off and stayed back. On one of the turns it looked like the Ballistarii could get the drop on one of the PBCs early on but Siegler decided to hide them most of the game up until they pretty much died. He could of used Dunestrider and the Manipulus to launch himself to an extreme angle to get some line of sight, popped Protector and Pattern Identification and would of most likely blasted 1 of the PBCs off.
As you said he has 8CP at the end of the game and he didn't really use them except for like 1 turn. To me it feels like he was being too worried about the DG which is fine, but he had the speed and firepower to do something about it but he decided to play the waiting game with 2 PBCs which I think was a mistake.
That said, Siegler did not play very well. He played extremely passively. Pretty much threw away his Raiders and Corpuscarii without moving up his threats, and he did not use his CP much at all; he had 8 by the end of the game. I chalk this up to it being a new list.
His list wasn't very good by the standards of what we can put out. Additionally they are a very defensive group of guys in how they play and that doesn't play to the current admech strengths. I think admech match up super well to DG and look forward to an increase in DG armies once we can all crawl out of our holes.
Hulksmash wrote: His list wasn't very good by the standards of what we can put out. Additionally they are a very defensive group of guys in how they play and that doesn't play to the current admech strengths. I think admech match up super well to DG and look forward to an increase in DG armies once we can all crawl out of our holes.
I agree. I think his list and play are both too timid. If you're going to try to out-defense DG without a codex... good luck. Right now, I am thinking Grav Destroyers, Kastelan Robots, and Fulgurites all the way.
I haven't used my plasma destroyers since they die on an overcharge of 1. I love the models, since I got the wargames exclusive dudes to represent my destroyers so I want to use them more. What do you think it would take in our codex, that is in the realm of possibility, that would make them viable again?
Tiberius501 wrote: I just had a really terrible thought. The new Death Guard codex brought with it a really annoying weapon options list for Plague Marines, based on what they get in their box.
Do... do you think we’re gonna get wrecked by that? No more 3 of the same gun in a unit of 10, but 1 of each type? God... please don’t.
That would totally destroy the current arquebus. I hope not, its weird that they did that for them but not SM
Yeah I really hope they don’t unless they change all the guns to work well with each other. Even then I enjoy having my differently equiped squads -_-
Hulksmash wrote: His list wasn't very good by the standards of what we can put out. Additionally they are a very defensive group of guys in how they play and that doesn't play to the current admech strengths. I think admech match up super well to DG and look forward to an increase in DG armies once we can all crawl out of our holes.
I agree. I think his list and play are both too timid. If you're going to try to out-defense DG without a codex... good luck. Right now, I am thinking Grav Destroyers, Kastelan Robots, and Fulgurites all the way.
I'm riding breachers, Corpuscarii, and skystalkers to the promised land. Oh, and 10 fulgurites.
Colonel Cross wrote: I haven't used my plasma destroyers since they die on an overcharge of 1. I love the models, since I got the wargames exclusive dudes to represent my destroyers so I want to use them more. What do you think it would take in our codex, that is in the realm of possibility, that would make them viable again?
I think our codex could conceivably have them take a mortal wound instead of slaying the model outright, and that would make them a lot more playable..
Also if you want to play with your models try taking a Ryza patrol with Daedalosus and a squad of 5-6 plasmaphrons and putting them in strategic reserves. Then pop up on turn 3 and delete whatever the scariest thing your opponent still has on the board.
Tiberius501 wrote: Is using the Mars Wrath of Mars strat good on a flock of 10 Sterylizors? Potentially some nice mortal wound output against some tougher targets.
Yes. Alternatively, you can run them Stygies and play a bit more cagey.
FAST ATTACK
- 10x Sterylizors
- 3x Dragoons (Lances, Pistols)
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
My main opponents are DG, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Angels. We’re doing narrative mostly so I’m more curious if it can just keep up with them and not get slaughtered. I imagine the Dragoons will be fairly useless against the DG.
FAST ATTACK
- 10x Sterylizors
- 3x Dragoons (Lances, Pistols)
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
My main opponents are DG, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Angels. We’re doing narrative mostly so I’m more curious if it can just keep up with them and not get slaughtered. I imagine the Dragoons will be fairly useless against the DG.
Thanks
You might also want to split your Vanguard into units of 5. If you have any Breachers or Destroyers, I would run them instead of extra Skitarii, which are pretty fragile.
Dragoons got nerfed pretty hard in the 9E update. Might have to wait until we get a codex to see if they will improve. If you magnetized them, run them as Ballistarii.
FAST ATTACK
- 10x Sterylizors
- 3x Dragoons (Lances, Pistols)
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Dunecrawler (Neutron Laser)
My main opponents are DG, Tyranids, Necrons and Dark Angels. We’re doing narrative mostly so I’m more curious if it can just keep up with them and not get slaughtered. I imagine the Dragoons will be fairly useless against the DG.
Thanks
You might also want to split your Vanguard into units of 5. If you have any Breachers or Destroyers, I would run them instead of extra Skitarii, which are pretty fragile.
Dragoons got nerfed pretty hard in the 9E update. Might have to wait until we get a codex to see if they will improve. If you magnetized them, run them as Ballistarii.
Thanks for the reply. Yeah I can’t say Dragoons really inspire me, that nerf to their extra hits really did make them lame. I just love the models. I’ll change them to Belistarii though for now. Auto cannons?
Tiberius501 wrote: Thanks for the reply. Yeah I can’t say Dragoons really inspire me, that nerf to their extra hits really did make them lame. I just love the models. I’ll change them to Belistarii though for now. Auto cannons?
They used to be great. I slowly collected 10 over time.
Lascannons are probably more versatile at 1000 points. Any chance you have a Disintegrator? Would complement Ballistarii quite well.
Tiberius501 wrote: Thanks for the reply. Yeah I can’t say Dragoons really inspire me, that nerf to their extra hits really did make them lame. I just love the models. I’ll change them to Belistarii though for now. Auto cannons?
They used to be great. I slowly collected 10 over time.
Lascannons are probably more versatile at 1000 points. Any chance you have a Disintegrator? Would complement Ballistarii quite well.
Unfortunately I don’t, and their kit is mighty pricey haha. I just have 3 Dunecrawlers.
Tiberius501 wrote: Unfortunately I don’t, and their kit is mighty pricey haha. I just have 3 Dunecrawlers.
Hm... are they magnetized? If so, might want to run an Icarus Crawler with Lascannon Ballistarii. If not, I guess Neutron Crawler with Autocannon Ballistarii will do, even though this is very vulnerable to a durable infantry list like DG.
Generally speaking though, the only time I want to run Crawlers over Disintegrators or Ballistarii is in Lucius lists, where they are tough as nails with 3+/4++ RR1 and ignore AP1.
Tiberius501 wrote: Unfortunately I don’t, and their kit is mighty pricey haha. I just have 3 Dunecrawlers.
Hm... are they magnetized? If so, might want to run an Icarus Crawler with Lascannon Ballistarii. If not, I guess Neutron Crawler with Autocannon Ballistarii will do, even though this is very vulnerable to a durable infantry list like DG.
Generally speaking though, the only time I want to run Crawlers over Disintegrators or Ballistarii is in Lucius lists, where they are tough as nails with 3+/4++ RR1 and ignore AP1.
Ive gone for this style of build lately, I used to be a Stygies boi but then with the caps to modifiers and dense terrain being a thing in 9th, I gravitated more towards Lucius for the added durability. AP is becoming more and more an issue in 9th, with AP1 just cropping up like weeds. Ive never really been a fan of Mars if im honest, it may work for others but I just found them lacking (I can also see Wrath of Mars getting a hard cap like in with other MW strats in 9th).
With Shroudpsalm and ignoring AP1, it makes Onagers, Breachers, Kastelans, Ballistarii and even Skitarii fairly durable (unless its Dev Doctrine but then you can just go for the +1 invun Canticle). You trade lethality with durability, so you might not have as potent of an opening salvo like Mars with Cawl, but you will sustain that firepower for longer and healing up where possible you save assets for longer. Its a totally different playstyle than Mars, you need a lot of restraint because things will still die, but saving the odd extra Heavy Bolter or Chainsword here and there due to ignoring that AP1 could be crucial, and with Admech if you dont kill something, you know itll get healed up to still be a thorn in their side at some point.
Thanks to the generosity of friends, I can now count a bunch of mechanicus bits among my list of fledgling mini-armies. Given that I mostly have partially-incomplete ranger/vanguard sprues, I imagine that they'll likely end up getting painted brown and serving as a heretech/dark mechanicus army.
So with that in mind, any tips on how to make the most of an army composed primarily of skitarii infantry? I'm not opposed to adding some cult mechanicus stuff to my army, but the money cost of castellans and breachers is pretty daunting. Plus, I just like the look of the skitarii side of things more.
Any specific forgeworlds or overall army styles I should keep in mind? My mechanicus opponents have always favored lots of breachers and castellans over skitarii infantry, so I imagine that going skitarii-heavy isn't exactly a popular army build right now.
Wyldhunt wrote: Thanks to the generosity of friends, I can now count a bunch of mechanicus bits among my list of fledgling mini-armies. Given that I mostly have partially-incomplete ranger/vanguard sprues, I imagine that they'll likely end up getting painted brown and serving as a heretech/dark mechanicus army.
So with that in mind, any tips on how to make the most of an army composed primarily of skitarii infantry? I'm not opposed to adding some cult mechanicus stuff to my army, but the money cost of castellans and breachers is pretty daunting. Plus, I just like the look of the skitarii side of things more.
Any specific forgeworlds or overall army styles I should keep in mind? My mechanicus opponents have always favored lots of breachers and castellans over skitarii infantry, so I imagine that going skitarii-heavy isn't exactly a popular army build right now.
As someone who's just getting into Admech as a third army (and is currently over 1k dollars USD deep and not done yet), if you're cost-conscious this may not be the army for you. Cheap points cost+high dollar-per-point models: one of the most expensive armies to field.
I was noticing that with the cavalry units, I really like them but damn they are pricey for being cheap as heck to field.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best set up for dune crawlers, it used to be the Icarus ones, is that still the case ? I've always been more a fan, theme wise of the neutron laser.
Just curious from the gear heads. Ad Mech is sort of a pet project army of mine where I have a lot of this and that and slowly grew it over the years.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I was noticing that with the cavalry units, I really like them but damn they are pricey for being cheap as heck to field.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best set up for dune crawlers, it used to be the Icarus ones, is that still the case ? I've always been more a fan, theme wise of the neutron laser.
Just curious from the gear heads. Ad Mech is sort of a pet project army of mine where I have a lot of this and that and slowly grew it over the years.
The Serberys Raiders and the Ironstriders are the worst offenders IMO- You want at least 6 Raiders most of the time, and 4-5 Ironstriders, and they're 50-60 bucks a box. You can (and I have) blown near 500 just filling out my fast attack slots.
The standard "magnetize your Dunecrawler" answer applies here, but I use the Neutron Laser for single-unit deletion ability. The Icarus is rad for blobs though.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I was noticing that with the cavalry units, I really like them but damn they are pricey for being cheap as heck to field.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best set up for dune crawlers, it used to be the Icarus ones, is that still the case ? I've always been more a fan, theme wise of the neutron laser.
Just curious from the gear heads. Ad Mech is sort of a pet project army of mine where I have a lot of this and that and slowly grew it over the years.
Icarus is still a favourite, even more so now with the heavy weapon vehicle changes. but nobody is ever worried about a Dunecrawler these days, the only time they'll become a target is if you make them a target with WWSWF. Otherwise everything else will go first.
Ya know what's probably going to suck when our codex comes out? I bet the dmg on neutron laser just goes to 3 + D3 like every other faction seems to be getting on their D6dmg weapons. Seems to be a real push to normalize things again, which in most cases improves stuff, but in our case dumbs everything into obscurity.
When terminators with storm shields are tougher than any tank to take down to the extent that a str 10, ap -4 D3 +3 dmg weapon is actually pretty favourable to take them out, we've gone a bit awry on the balance somewhere. I'd like to see a modified version of the old ap rules combined with the current blast rule, not to the extent that you simply cant wound a tank with assault or RF weapons, but put them at a severe disadvantage.
Two new keywords maybe: HEAVY VEHICLE and ANTI-TANK.
For example, I'd like to see all rapid-fire and assault weapons wound HEAVY VEHICLES starting on a 6+ regardless of str.
Conversely, all ANTI-TANK weapons should HIT an infantry squad of fewer than 11 models starting on a 6+ regardless of BS and probably be -1 to hit a vehicle that isn't a HEAVY VEHICLE so that light vehicles can actually have some chance of surviving in these days of increased lethality. A small squad or light vehicle is agile and small enough to just sidestep massive heavy weapons designed to pierce meter-thick tanks.
What we've done there is made RF and assault weapons plink off heavy vehicles as they should, still useful against light vehicles and they're unaffected shooting infantry.
Meanwhile heavy weapons designed for big targets struggle to find their mark on small infantry squads, but will still obliterate an infantryman if they hit, are less effective against small vehicle but are your only reliable way of taking out heavy tank-like vehicles.
Then you can increase the number of shots on RF and assault weapons to counter tougher infantry and light vehicles without giving them an even bigger advantage than they already do against heavy stuff.
Neutron laser would then obviously be ANTI-TANK
Eradication ray should work like a prism cannon imo, one ANTI-TANK profile and one not, then you can increase the shots on the non-ANTI-TANK profile to make it a tough infantry and light vehicle tool and also make it useful but not amazing against heavy tanks, like its supposed to be imo.
Same story with heavy phosphor, increase damage to 3 and it's a heavy infantry and light vehicle murder weapon without being as effective against tanks.
Meanwhile the Icarus can have a mix as it does now and be a general allrounder.
So, 6 is the sweet spot for raider units ? I have picked up a couple boxes of them and was thinking two squads of 3, but I can see where the firepower would be too light to have much worth with it.
Only picked up a pair of the iron striders over the years as yeah, I just can't bring myself to get them near full price it just feels too much of a rip.
The raiders I might buff out their squad sizes because I just love cavalry.
Thoughts feelings ? Worth it ? From what I gather they are good for scouting, skirmishing units, disruption with the chance to do something useful in shooting is that accurate for my thoughts on their use ?
Any help is much appreciated and thank you so far for the responses.
as far as I can gather, Raiders are one of the best units admech has right now.
Dakkabots, Kataphrons and Raiders which are extremely cheap (pts wise) for the number of wounds you get. Also very good add screening and annoying your opponent.
I would want a really good reason for going to 6, as 5 lets you avoid Blast and coherency restrictions. If you're going to go over 5, you may as well go larger.
Well considering you can't buy them in exact numbers to make 5 I meant more as in getting more boxes to have enough for 6 and 6, even if you only would field say 5 at a time.
I'd want them small enough to be mobile but large enough to get things done and not melt away to the first shots directed their way.
bmsattler wrote: I would want a really good reason for going to 6, as 5 lets you avoid Blast and coherency restrictions. If you're going to go over 5, you may as well go larger.
The blast 'weakness' is less of an issue until you're over 10 models imo. Getting a minimum of 3 shots on blast weapons on a D6 is the average anyway, sure they could roll less and get an extra 1-2 shots but math-wise a D6 shot weapon against a 6 model unit is no better off being blast than not. But if you find that margin is too high for you then by all means stick to 5.
Unit coherency on the other hand is going to be more of an issue with 6 than if you took 9 for example. One of the greatest tricks a unit of Raiders can pull is to contest an objective from the front placing models as close to your opponent as you can while leaving conga of models out the back to still be in the 3", then if they get charged Tactica Oblique backwards to make them fail their charge but still remain on your objective. You can still do it with 6 but your conga needs to be 2-wide at the back instead of 1 and you cant conga them forward as far or spread out as wide to screen.
When I bought my Raiders I assumed i'd be taking 3 squads, so bought 5 boxes to have 3 squads of 5 exactly, but thats a lot of FA slots so I'm finding I just dont use them all now anyway :| The detachment restrictions are a killer for us as we have a lot of good FA choices but dont really want to spend cp and hq tax to include an outrider.
edit: Oh and I wouldn't worry about them doing anyting damage-wise, treat them as more mobile bare-bones rangers. There purpose is not killing stuff, but the od kill here and there is a bonus.
bmsattler wrote: I would want a really good reason for going to 6, as 5 lets you avoid Blast and coherency restrictions. If you're going to go over 5, you may as well go larger.
The blast 'weakness' is less of an issue until you're over 10 models imo. Getting a minimum of 3 shots on blast weapons on a D6 is the average anyway, sure they could roll less and get an extra 1-2 shots but math-wise a D6 shot weapon against a 6 model unit is no better off being blast than not. But if you find that margin is too high for you then by all means stick to 5.
Unit coherency on the other hand is going to be more of an issue with 6 than if you took 9 for example. One of the greatest tricks a unit of Raiders can pull is to contest an objective from the front placing models as close to your opponent as you can while leaving conga of models out the back to still be in the 3", then if they get charged Tactica Oblique backwards to make them fail their charge but still remain on your objective. You can still do it with 6 but your conga needs to be 2-wide at the back instead of 1 and you cant conga them forward as far or spread out as wide to screen.
When I bought my Raiders I assumed i'd be taking 3 squads, so bought 5 boxes to have 3 squads of 5 exactly, but thats a lot of FA slots so I'm finding I just dont use them all now anyway :| The detachment restrictions are a killer for us as we have a lot of good FA choices but dont really want to spend cp and hq tax to include an outrider.
edit: Oh and I wouldn't worry about them doing anyting damage-wise, treat them as more mobile bare-bones rangers. There purpose is not killing stuff, but the od kill here and there is a bonus.
Not quite. It increases the average from 3.5 shots to 4.
It's not a big bump, but it does increase average damage.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I was noticing that with the cavalry units, I really like them but damn they are pricey for being cheap as heck to field.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best set up for dune crawlers, it used to be the Icarus ones, is that still the case ? I've always been more a fan, theme wise of the neutron laser.
Just curious from the gear heads. Ad Mech is sort of a pet project army of mine where I have a lot of this and that and slowly grew it over the years.
For as long I've had Onagers its been Neutron Lasers from the very beginning. I think its more a personal preference thing really, I've seen people scream Icarus Arrays are the way but thats never been true to me. I find them rather lacking, but maybe im just blessed with Neutron Lasers because they never let me down. Ive started to use the Eradication Beamers more and more but its just a poor mans Battle Cannon, I wish they were better and that close range profile wasnt so... close range.
Id like to see what our new Codex does for the Onager.
deffrekka wrote: For as long I've had Onagers its been Neutron Lasers from the very beginning. I think its more a personal preference thing really, I've seen people scream Icarus Arrays are the way but thats never been true to me. I find them rather lacking, but maybe im just blessed with Neutron Lasers because they never let me down. Ive started to use the Eradication Beamers more and more but its just a poor mans Battle Cannon, I wish they were better and that close range profile wasnt so... close range.
Id like to see what our new Codex does for the Onager.
Well, Icarus Arrays were strictly better in 8E because of how much Fly there was.
That said, Neutron Lasers are wonderful when they connect. But sometimes, they don't. And that feels really bad. When they whiff two turns in a row, you wonder why you even bring them. And statistically, that is likely to happen eventually.
Well I love being let down, so neutron sounds like the way to me.
That said their first use for me was running neutron vs tau. Kept trying to knock out a riptide. Who played against was just forever making them invulns. Was supremely irritating.
Eventually I killed the riptidet though, only took like all game and let most of my troops die in the process but by the end I had my HQs left, one group of rangers and the Onager just walking around trying to plink away the last fire warriors loitering around, good times.
The pair of subbers on it was great for working down the troops. So I did gain some respect for heavy stubbers that day.
I have 15 breachers, 6 raider, 3 of each vehicle 4 ironstrider and 7 robots.
I know my list isn't the current AdMech meta list, but I don't like a Mars as it doesn't suit my playstyle.
I used to play stygies but dragoon nerfs and lack on -2 to hit hurt my lists hard. I think this gives me the fleaxbility to do what I need.
I really don't get why people don't like dunecrawlers, 5++ rr1 and ability to repair is great, adding a 6+++ makes them very hard to shift for the points, and never having to worry about wound profile is great.
I like Crawlers too, especially at lower points. I would do Icarus Crawlers though. IMO, you don't need Neutron Lasers if you have a sufficient number of Data-hoard Breachers; souped up Heavy Arc Rifles have comparable output to Lascannons. (Plus, if you are going up against Blood Angels, Icarus Crawlers will have a surfeit of Flying targets.)
The rest is pretty straightforward. Drills+Priests behind some Raiders, and a Bomber to harass.
Looks like a good list but I just don't think it'll suit my play style as well. Thanks for the feedback however. I'll let yous know how it goes, fingers crossed.
Ok so another question for debate. I have 9 Kataphrons but I made my lists long ago with most all skittari, as I love them. My question is what is the best set up uses for Kataphrons ?
I'm a big fan of plasma, however I see and hear many use the breachers over destroyers. Why is that ? Is it just the armor increase ?
Feed me some knowledge more knowledgeable amigos. I'm a very experienced player but playing my Ad mech I've not done much as I have more armies than I'd like to admit so I get around to using them when I can and the model build, paint and use process has been slow for them.
I believe Breachers are popular because of the better save, lower points cost, and melee weapon, compared to Destroyers. Also, the custom forge world that lets arc weapons score additional hits on 5s and 6s has lead to some lists that spam Breachers, so they seem to get a lot more play.
That being said, grav-destroyers seem to have increased in popularity because of the Space Marine meta.
I'm not sure if the change to plasma rules or the various mission changes from 8th to 9th are responsible, but plasma destroyers just don't seem as good as they were before.
Quick question regarding this new Exorcists trait:
Does that mean it bypasses re-roll abilities for wounds? As in attackers don't get to re-roll their 1 or 2 to wound because it's an unmodified roll of 1 or 2 auto-fails? Is that how transhuman is worded as well?
Octovol wrote: Quick question regarding this new Exorcists trait:
Does that mean it bypasses re-roll abilities for wounds? As in attackers don't get to re-roll their 1 or 2 to wound because it's an unmodified roll of 1 or 2 auto-fails? Is that how transhuman is worded as well?
No. It's worded the same as Transhuman, I believe, and that doesn't stop rerolls, only modifiers.
So if you're being shot at by a S5 weapon with +1 to-wound, 1s and 2s on die will fail, despite 2s normally succeeding. But if you can reroll all wound rolls, you can still reroll the 1s and 2s.
laam999 wrote: Looks like a good list but I just don't think it'll suit my play style as well. Thanks for the feedback however. I'll let yous know how it goes, fingers crossed.
Here is the list I'll be playing against tonight, never heard of those tanks before so I'm a little worried about them tbh.
Played last night on TTS. I got first turn and pretty much devastated his army, I felt bad as it was my first time playing this guy but it was a game to learn from. Next time I won't be as focused and enjoy the game more to show him more tricks AdMech have.
laam999 wrote: Looks like a good list but I just don't think it'll suit my play style as well. Thanks for the feedback however. I'll let yous know how it goes, fingers crossed.
Here is the list I'll be playing against tonight, never heard of those tanks before so I'm a little worried about them tbh.
Played last night on TTS. I got first turn and pretty much devastated his army, I felt bad as it was my first time playing this guy but it was a game to learn from. Next time I won't be as focused and enjoy the game more to show him more tricks AdMech have.
So was his plan to just walk all those troops up the field and hope the storm shields protected them? Imagine if you'd taken robots lol. I do love Breachers as an alround safe, useful troops choice. Those tanks of his have no invuln so I imagine neutrons just wasted them without too much concern?
That would be an interesting neutron upgrade tbh. We all want it to be more reliable, because that 1 shot you almost always end up with often just falls to whatever invuln anything you want dead has. if the neutron could bypass invulns then at it's current profile it'd be a real threat to everything, not just stuff without an invuln.
And keep the spiral rolling.
You basically want it to shoot MWs.
Which you only want because everything has an invul now.
Which only happened because everything has AP now.
Which only happened because they wanted the game to be more deadly.
Ignoring invuls is a terrible, terrible mechanic which is just the next step for the power creep....
I think he just didn't make the best use of the terrain and since I had bombers and a drill he didn't know how to handle them. It was a learning experience for him as he's pretty new to the game but he's got a good track record to date.
We'll have another game next week and instead of both building blind lists I think we'll agree on them first. I think I'm going to take robots to show him them next game lol
Thairne wrote: And keep the spiral rolling.
You basically want it to shoot MWs.
Which you only want because everything has an invul now.
Which only happened because everything has AP now.
Which only happened because they wanted the game to be more deadly.
Ignoring invuls is a terrible, terrible mechanic which is just the next step for the power creep....
I mean there are already weapons that ignore invulns and a Psychic power that does it in a radius as well. Whether it's a good idea is another matter, but the mechanics are already there. I just want my uber laser to be worth taking again and to actually be scary to people. At the moment a Ferrumite cannon is a much better option.
understandable - but that should be done via different measures.
Ignoring rules your opponent paid for in points is generally not a good thing. And as much fun it is for you (and me) to delete a unit with no saves - as unfun is it to have no defense whatsoever except maybe a FNP for your opponent.
Give it more damage, more shots, less rng to make it actually work some of the time... cause D3 MW on a 4+ in addition etc (albeit still ignoring invuls, flat out ignoring them is really painful)
Yeah really feels like that -1 Damage for deathguard is going to get a whole lot of mileage in the game currently. Where regular marines will feel like their two wounds count for less and less.
Suzuteo wrote: I am always nervous when they buff things... though I am pretty sure they won't change the points too much?
Also, IMO, D2 is worse than DD3 in a -1D environment.
But a bonus for MW on Fulgurites, which honestly is more or less what we're taking them for. Without that MW component we probably wouldn't run them.
I'm ok with a slight nerf to Fulgs as long as there's a proportionate buff to our other melee options. At the moment Fulgs are just so good they blow most other factions elite melee options out of the water and maker it so that every other option we have is just not as good. I'd like for there to actually be a choice to make.
Edit: Disappointing their WS is still only 4+ on Corps
I'm thinking it might be a Secutarii, given that we have the Transvector able to carry them but Secutarii are not (as of the last time I looked at Peltasts and Hoplites) able to be carried because of unit sizes.
Not happening imo. Unless they're also re-releasing hoplites and Peltasts in all-plastic. Which would be cool. Peltasts another troops option hoplites another elite option.
It looks like we're getting old formations from 7e back in the form of armies of renown as well.
Realistically it's a vanguard alpha primus, if you read between the lines they appear to be introducing a leutenant model for most factions where it makes sense.
The weirdest thing here is that the book of rust includes a supplement for House Raven and Forgeworld Metalica and neither of those factions will have a 9e codex at the time the book comes out.
Ehh...it's just as likely as it being a "Vanguard". Difference is that "Secutarii" got specifically called out as being able to get transported in the flyers and Duneriders.
We have known since the initial preview with the "New Year, New Models" teaser that it seems to be a "lieutenant" styled model.
With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont see why it would be a Secutarii character from GW when theyre all FW.
Totally fair, but it's still unusual for a non-GW unit to get a rules shoutout before a FAQ. That's all I'm harping on about.
Plus it's not like there is not a specific type of Secutarii field commander...
Secutarii Axiarchs were a type of battlefield commander used by the Mechanicum's Secutarii guard. These officers displayed perfect dedication and application to the Secutarii's art of war, but also have served on a battlefield where a fallen Titan have been successfully recovered or protected from the enemy. This is the most holy task a Secutarii can perform, and as such the Axiarch's are seen as blessed by the Omnissiah.
Once this criteria has been met, an Axiarch is remade and upgraded into a being that is inumanely stalwart and nigh-indestructible. They were typically equipped with an Arc Maul, Radium Pistol as well as Refractor Field and Titanshard Armour.
As far as I'm aware(which might be missing some current info from novels or the like, do we know what happened to the Secutarii post-Heresy? Having Secutarii getting used as the basis for a Skitarii HQ would not be entirely unreasonable.
My money is its either a named character Ranger-type or a generic that can be a Ranger-type or Vanguard type with different auras about them.
If it's anything specifically Skitarii, I'd doubt it's tied to any one specific type.
Kanluwen wrote: Ehh...it's just as likely as it being a "Vanguard". Difference is that "Secutarii" got specifically called out as being able to get transported in the flyers and Duneriders.
We have known since the initial preview with the "New Year, New Models" teaser that it seems to be a "lieutenant" styled model.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...transports got updated so they can all take Secutarii in engine war didn't they? What's that got to do with this character? What benefit is there to having a Secutarii model/keyword when Hoplites and Peltasts also have the Skitarii keyword and there are already Skitarii keyword-based rules? It would be extremely odd to get a Secutarii-specific HQ to support two extreme-minority FW units when a large portion of the army already has the Skitarii keyword and our other HQ options dont support them. What we need is for Peltasts and Hoplites to get that Forgeworld keyword so our existing rules can support them. Not an overly restrictive new HQ model, we already have plenty of those!
Unless you're just coming from a thematic angle because you like the Secutarii? Which is fine, but rules-wise is totally not relevant at the moment. Releasing a model for purely thematic reasons is the territory of FW, not GW.
I could see there being both Ranger and Vanguard heads, the silhouette is clearly Vanguard though (or Secutarii I guess) but it'll all depend on what weapon options it gets. No sane person would take a Ranger alpha over a vanguard one, with what we currently know of the rules, if you're forced to take a pistol and melee weapon. Unless Rangers actually get something back from what they lost in the move from 7th. Be cool if they get the same rule as Serbyrus for targeting characters like they used to have.
Kanluwen wrote: With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.
I think you missed the point here. The book of rust for the charadon warzone, a new campaign book, has listings for a codex supplement for Cult of Strife (Drucharii), Metalica (Admech), and House Raven (IK) A SUPPLEMENT to a codex being released BEFORE the actual codex? Not weird?
Also, what's so special about Raven and Metalica that they need a supplement? At least Lelith Hesperax is from the Cult of Strife, there are no unique units for Metalica/Raven that I'm aware of unless this new model is Metalica only? That would suck. I'm so over faction-specific characters without a generic alternative. Course if you can also build the model as a generic version, then i'll eat my words lol
Charadon was, imo supposed to come after the factions received a new codex.
But Covid fethed their schedule up beyond redemption, so they decided to release the longer-done and clogging-warehouse charadon basically in tandem with the Drukhari codex.
I would expect to have AdMech/IK shortly after, maybe in summer... that would make the most sense to me as admech also is one of the oldest codex from 8th and needs some new rules to rule in some outliers (dakkabots) , elevate basically the rest of the codex and do something with the godawful relics, basic wlt's and canticles.
Kanluwen wrote: Ehh...it's just as likely as it being a "Vanguard". Difference is that "Secutarii" got specifically called out as being able to get transported in the flyers and Duneriders.
We have known since the initial preview with the "New Year, New Models" teaser that it seems to be a "lieutenant" styled model.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...transports got updated so they can all take Secutarii in engine war didn't they? What's that got to do with this character? What benefit is there to having a Secutarii model/keyword when Hoplites and Peltasts also have the Skitarii keyword and there are already Skitarii keyword-based rules? It would be extremely odd to get a Secutarii-specific HQ to support two extreme-minority FW units when a large portion of the army already has the Skitarii keyword and our other HQ options dont support them. What we need is for Peltasts and Hoplites to get that Forgeworld keyword so our existing rules can support them. Not an overly restrictive new HQ model, we already have plenty of those!
Unless you're just coming from a thematic angle because you like the Secutarii? Which is fine, but rules-wise is totally not relevant at the moment. Releasing a model for purely thematic reasons is the territory of FW, not GW.
I could see there being both Ranger and Vanguard heads, the silhouette is clearly Vanguard though (or Secutarii I guess) but it'll all depend on what weapon options it gets. No sane person would take a Ranger alpha over a vanguard one, with what we currently know of the rules, if you're forced to take a pistol and melee weapon. Unless Rangers actually get something back from what they lost in the move from 7th. Be cool if they get the same rule as Serbyrus for targeting characters like they used to have.
Kanluwen wrote: With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.
I think you missed the point here. The book of rust for the charadon warzone, a new campaign book, has listings for a codex supplement for Cult of Strife (Drucharii), Metalica (Admech), and House Raven (IK) A SUPPLEMENT to a codex being released BEFORE the actual codex? Not weird?
Also, what's so special about Raven and Metalica that they need a supplement? At least Lelith Hesperax is from the Cult of Strife, there are no unique units for Metalica/Raven that I'm aware of unless this new model is Metalica only? That would suck. I'm so over faction-specific characters without a generic alternative. Course if you can also build the model as a generic version, then i'll eat my words lol
Secutarii originally had to be taken in 10s the other transports could take them but didn't have the capacity
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...transports got updated so they can all take Secutarii in engine war didn't they? What's that got to do with this character? What benefit is there to having a Secutarii model/keyword when Hoplites and Peltasts also have the Skitarii keyword and there are already Skitarii keyword-based rules? It would be extremely odd to get a Secutarii-specific HQ to support two extreme-minority FW units when a large portion of the army already has the Skitarii keyword and our other HQ options dont support them. What we need is for Peltasts and Hoplites to get that Forgeworld keyword so our existing rules can support them. Not an overly restrictive new HQ model, we already have plenty of those!
Unless you're just coming from a thematic angle because you like the Secutarii? Which is fine, but rules-wise is totally not relevant at the moment. Releasing a model for purely thematic reasons is the territory of FW, not GW.
You're way too focused on the fact that I'm bringing up the Secutarii keyword, I think. I brought it up because it's a weirdly specific keyword that was in an official GW publication. The Axiarch that I copy/pasted information on was a Mechanicum unit.
AFAIK, we don't have info on where/what became of the Mechanicum concepts like Secutarii when it became the Adeptus Mechanicus. We do know that there is at least still a "Titan Guard" concept, per the Kill Team "Background Designation" table for Skitarii.
That's why I maintain it was so damned weird that they brought the Secutarii keyword into the game at all for the two transports. Secutarii had the "Skitarii" keyword, and could have been covered by that alone. By adding the keyword to the vehicles in Engine War(which was part of the build-up to 9E, mind you!), they futureproofed things a bit.
And now with the addition of the "Trueborn" to Drukari? We might be seeing "Secutarii" become a Command Pointed upgrade to our Rangers or Alphas to make them 'Veterans' of a sorts.
I could see there being both Ranger and Vanguard heads, the silhouette is clearly Vanguard though (or Secutarii I guess) but it'll all depend on what weapon options it gets. No sane person would take a Ranger alpha over a vanguard one, with what we currently know of the rules, if you're forced to take a pistol and melee weapon.
We know literally nothing of the rules. We have a silhouette.
We also have these:
Spoiler:
And sadly, it does seem very likely that we'll be forced to take a pistol+melee weapon, if we go by the Pteraxii, who were forced to take them on their squad leaders. Hopefully the rest of the army does not follow suit.
Unless Rangers actually get something back from what they lost in the move from 7th. Be cool if they get the same rule as Serbyrus for targeting characters like they used to have.
Are you talking about them getting Precision Shots via their Galvanic Rifles?
Because really, there's so much about Skitarii period that needs to be addressed that Precision Shots alone are not as big of a deal.
Kanluwen wrote: With regards to the supplements...eh. None of the previously released Marine supplements got updated beyond a FAQ.
I think you missed the point here. The book of rust for the charadon warzone, a new campaign book, has listings for a codex supplement for Cult of Strife (Drucharii), Metalica (Admech), and House Raven (IK) A SUPPLEMENT to a codex being released BEFORE the actual codex? Not weird?
And I think you missed the point:
Supplemental material can be done in such a way that you're able to release it before the next iteration of a book. Also, COVID is and has been a thing.
Also, what's so special about Raven and Metalica that they need a supplement? At least Lelith Hesperax is from the Cult of Strife, there are no unique units for Metalica/Raven that I'm aware of unless this new model is Metalica only? That would suck. I'm so over faction-specific characters without a generic alternative. Course if you can also build the model as a generic version, then i'll eat my words lol
Metalica is located in the Charadon Sector.
There's literally a heading on the table of contents called "Metalica Besieged" and another called "The Metalican Redoubt".
Raven is the Knight house sworn to Metalica.
just to throw out a different option, it might be possible that they could use these "armies of renown" to trial specific army concepts (for example, a admech variant list that focuses on skitarii at the expense of the robots elements, or visa-versa). give these ideas an extended playtest, almost.
Im not saying it IS the case, but it might be, and might explain why they are getting rules before the codex is ready (plus, y'know, pandemic)
Oh for sure these "Armies of Renown" are going to be specific lists. It sounds like it's going to be akin to the Legendary Legions in Lord of the Rings.
You give up access to certain units, heroes, and any alliance options but in return get some significantly impactful rules.
By tweaking their more mechanical creations to better hold the line at any cost, the defence cohorts of Forge World Metalica are able to shrug off damage that would fell a lesser automaton and more accurately lay down a storm of fire against the shambling hordes charging their lines. It’s so effective, in fact, that the idea can be picked up by any Forge World you might wish to choose.
While they might not have a new psychic discipline of their own, the Mechanicus Defence Cohort also gains new Stratagems and a powerful Relic to better push back the heretic hordes. By pre-preparing their defensive positions, the Tech-Priests are capable of bringing greater levels of durability to their forces than ever before.
As befits the sensibilities of the Mechanicus Defence Cohort, their units prepare extensively for the opening salvos of a battle when the enemy first comes into range. This Stratagem is perfect for maximising your first-turn shooting, or for catching any weak-willed cowards who spend their time hiding among your foe’s back lines.
While you’re setting up your pre-planned artillery strikes, make sure to also bolt a few spare plates here and there to any good cover you can find – with the thick plating and sturdy construction of the Kataphron at your command, a few solid walls will render your troops nigh-on invulnerable to enemy fire.
Any Tech-Priest worth their salt has tinkered with one or two pieces of hazardous technology to create wildly destructive weapons, but few still can match the awe-inspiring power of their most ancient Relics. Strap on this masterpiece of volkite technology and you’ll have the Omnissiah’s enemies fleeing for the hills in no time.
Yep, looks like Legendary Legions have made their way to 40k!
That looks tasty.
Kataphrons can become very tough if you stack a servitor maniple on top - 1+/5++, ressurectable, -1D, -1 to hit if you run stygies.
Kastellans benefit greatly from the -1D, overwatching on 5+.. not sure about that one, but with the amount of dakka it might be actually worth it to spend the CP.
Am I understanding it right that Extremis Sentinel Protocols allows any unit with it to Set to Defend or Holds Steady when charged regardless of whether or not they are in Defensible terrain? The wording isn't clear, it the way it's written it just seems to be repeating the normal effects of those actions, which is silly and pointless since it means you can still only take them while in Defensible terrain.
Also Forgefire seems like an actually decent relic, but only relative to our existing mostly terrible relic options. If the AM book fixes that, this will probably become useless.
I think the point is that its not INFANTRY only anymore - which means that entire text is just "Kastellan robots can now as well".
I'm really wondering why they're so hellbent on making buffbots shoot better....
Edit: Also just realised that its not only Vanguards and Rangers you cannot use - but everything with the keyword. That means your list condenses down to... HQ's, Kataphrons, Electropriests, Servitors, X-101, Kastellans.
Yea it's pretty terrible. You could maybe take a really fat Stygies Breachers squad and try to scout move it into a good spot but otherwise this army can't go anywhere and has no board control, losing on a lot of important types of firepower, just to get a bit of damage mitigation and a situational buff against melee squads.
Unfortunately, playing defensively wont win you games in 9th.
Its an absolute castle list... the -1D is basically army wide at that point and makes you very hard to dislodge from the objectives you do hold. I dont think one can easily outshoot this one, but assault armies will still run this over, push you back to your deployment and then go on and win from there.
thats fine....if the match scenarios allowed you to start on the objectives you need to defend. However, almost every one of the standard scenarios is a "meeting engagement" set up that forces the players to fight over objectives in the map centre....which this force is not constructed to do. Almost all of our attacking units have the skitarii keyword, with the exception of the electro-priests.....which will have to foot-slog into battle as the duneriders are skitarii...as are the skorpius and the dunecrawler.
so, all of the admechs fast attack choices, and all of its high mobility options, are blocked. your only offensive melee options for taking and holding a contested central objective are the electro-priests, and fist kastellens. now, both of these are good at that, i grant, but still, I think that such a list might only really work in scenarios where it deploys with control over most of the objectives and merely has to hold them with occasional counter-attacks.
my issue with that detachment is holy balls thats expensive...
Think about it. All thats legally allowed is our HQs (since none have Skitarii for some reason, forget if Dr.D has it though)
Kataphrons
Kastellans
Priests
Datasmiths
Even the Drill in FW has Skitarii keyword now so you cant bring a transport for the priests so likely you wont be using them.
Meaning either 12 robots, or a gak ton of kataphrons to fill the list up. My wallet hurts thinking of either of those lol
If you put in Cawl, Daedalosus and a Manipulus you can field 3x5 Phrons, 6 Dakkabots, 20 Priests and, I think even a smith, in 2k points.
I think all I'd need in that setup is 10 priests and 3 phrons...
But its a durable, shooty list with no tricks and mobility. I can see the phrons slog it out from deployment, advance slowly upon an objective and just sit there. Priests out of LOS as a countercharge unit, dakkabots in deployment and/or as melee AT with a smith in tow.
Heck, Smiths might even see use since you run out of models before you run out of points!
well its definately a very, very static playstyle. Probably wont win any tournaments, but it has some use. If you go against an enemy shooting army, the innate awesome shooting and durability that dakkabots and kataphrons provide, added with a army wide -1D, is pretty tough. Mobility is not as required as with Maelstrom, so I dont think it's as big as a detriment as it was before.
If you manage to get onto the objectives it will be very, very hard to shift you off via shooting.
It's worth an attempt if you have the models and I'll definately try it out if I get the chance. But the list is very skewed by design and might just not be fun to play against at all...
Edit: Melee will have some problems too, but ultimately win out. Although neutering Thunder Hammers is a very nice boon...
NOPE. Only against ranged. Melee will blow over this list without much trouble.
This would have been an amazing 8th edition army, but just ask the Tau how well an immobile gun line with no melee units fares in 9th edition.
Not only is this a poor army for 9th, it wouldn’t be any fun to play against. It probably wouldn’t be that much fun to play either. It’s at best interesting as a narrative scenario.
If this is the kind of rules writing we can expect for our codex we're in for an extremely rough 9th ed >.<
Both the DG and DE codexes seem to be extremely well written so far though, so there's hope yet. Just gotta hope that intern they let write the last one isnt involved lol
Octovol wrote: If this is the kind of rules writing we can expect for our codex we're in for an extremely rough 9th ed >.<
Both the DG and DE codexes seem to be extremely well written so far though, so there's hope yet. Just gotta hope that intern they let write the last one isnt involved lol
I mean the DG army of renown is similarly limiting for an underwhelming upgrade on the units it lets you take. So it may just be that the book is bad.
As expected we're the next book in line, with probably what is instantly in the top 3 cover art in the history of the game.
Skitarii Marshal is the name of our new HQ/Character, but as of yet not much info so far as rules go, beyond some vague promises of upgraded weaponry relative to other Imperial factions.
Madjob wrote: As expected we're the next book in line, with probably what is instantly in the top 3 cover art in the history of the game.
Skitarii Marshal is the name of our new HQ/Character, but as of yet not much info so far as rules go, beyond some vague promises of upgraded weaponry relative to other Imperial factions.
I think we might be as close as April as the article mentions more news in April and so did the binary apparently so thats cool.
Easier to count the number of things on that cover that do have models - there's 2. The new Skitarii Marshal, and you can make out an Archeopter silhouette or two in the sky. The rest are too off the wall to be easily pinpointed as specific models, yea it's a bunch of tech-priests but none of them have the generic loadout we see on tabletop. And I say GOOD. From the perspective of the quality of lore and artwork, this is exactly the sort of thing we need that we lacked for all of 7th and a good chunk of 8th thanks to an apparent mandate of, "No model, no rules, no artwork" where GW insisted all content produced in parallel to the models had to be wholly and exclusively in support of models that they currently sold. Completely and utterly creatively stagnant, artwork and lore sells the setting, the setting sells models, models sell rules.
Has anyone seen online if someone has taken a magnifying glass and too much free time to assess the video and pictures to see if anything new can be pinpointed?
It does really look like a Helverin, but GW's official model is blue and they tend to reuse models for pictures. Plus it's odd because they don't usually mix factions when showing off one.
I'd say the proportions are right: the hips are slightly wider than the armpits, the silver blur in the middle is about where the big collar should be, and the yellow-ish blur under that should be the head. If the silver streak pointing down is its left arm, that'd be about the length of a Helverin barrel. Then the blur on the left would be its right arm pointed toward the camera. The thing blocking the light on the top is probably the pintle-mounted gun.
They said all the weapons are getting an upgrade, there were a few that they named but we should hope for/expect marine+ for our weapon profiles as they tend to be a bit more useful to balance out our relative squishiness when compared to marines.
Interesting the marshal's offhand is called a control rod would seem odd to 'control' skitarii though, you'd expect control to be on the less able-binded like all the cult units.
I was thinking about what they've done with the DE Codex and combat drugs for Wych cults seemed like a really nice canticle re-work. Just have certain elligible units be permanently upgraded in some way. Maybe allow TP to change their upgrade once a turn to keep that element of flexibility.
Some of them would be too strong though, like permanent cover all the time...unless canticles would then not be available for non-infantry or something, or non core.
Maybe control rod allows the marshall to apply canticles to non-core? I dunno i'm theory crafting lol
Kanluwen wrote: Random guess for the Control Rod is that it's not for "controlling" Skitarii...but rather for Servitors and Robots.
or maybe its does control the skitarii, who are, after all, supposed to be constantly in comms with the tech priest for data-capture purposes. maybe the rod is just the tool that generates whatever aura bonus the Marshall grants to his troops.
Kanluwen wrote: Random guess for the Control Rod is that it's not for "controlling" Skitarii...but rather for Servitors and Robots.
or maybe its does control the skitarii, who are, after all, supposed to be constantly in comms with the tech priest for data-capture purposes.
Ehhh...the gist of what is supposed to be happening is not that they are "constantly in comms" but rather that there is a constant data inload to the Tech-Priest. You can be transmitting data and not necessarily be actively communicating.
maybe the rod is just the tool that generates whatever aura bonus the Marshall grants to his troops.
Maybe. Personal speculation on my end is, as I said, that it might be tied more to Servitors(as in the 'standard' Servitors that require a Techpriest to override their Mindlocks) and the Robots.
The video teaser seemed to hint at a lazy Techpriest, and what better way to be lazy than letting someone else babysit?
I honestly hope Kastellans either get BS/WS3+ or that they benefit from mindlock to get them to 3+ like regular servitors do. Maybe limit the size of a detachment as a balancing for them not needing quite as much of a crutch to be performant.
I seem to recall in Graham McNeil's books the skitarii do get shunted and controlled by their commanders under extreme circumstances in order to rapidly increase their tactical control. Maybe they are doing something like that with the control rod?
Or maybe it's servitor related like Kanluwen said. I always thought we could do with more servitors on the roster, would be cool to see some other creations..
Reading the goonhammer leaks, I feel like my faith in Metalica and house Raven is finally being rewarded. I doubt we're gonna be top tier, but theres a lot of love in there and it seems to heavily reward an aggressive, in your face playstyle that made the few bits of Metalica that worked before fun.
If only I wasnt about to leave for work for 6 months and not be able to play 40k whatsoever. Figures I finally get cool rules and I cant use them.
But yeah, red tide vanguard with Metalica could be really fun with the leaks Ive seen. Lots of debuff auras up close, movement buffing abilities, and the ability to tie Raven knights into our army, canticles and all, is really cool. Given how movement heavy 9th is Metalica may be worth actually considering now. My group is already laughing about how Im probably one of 5 people on the planet who played Metalica and Raven consistently for years before they were cool (with the exception of the order of companions Castellan of course)
MrMoustaffa wrote: Reading the goonhammer leaks, I feel like my faith in Metalica and house Raven is finally being rewarded. I doubt we're gonna be top tier, but theres a lot of love in there and it seems to heavily reward an aggressive, in your face playstyle that made the few bits of Metalica that worked before fun.
If only I wasnt about to leave for work for 6 months and not be able to play 40k whatsoever. Figures I finally get cool rules and I cant use them.
But yeah, red tide vanguard with Metalica could be really fun with the leaks Ive seen. Lots of debuff auras up close, movement buffing abilities, and the ability to tie Raven knights into our army, canticles and all, is really cool. Given how movement heavy 9th is Metalica may be worth actually considering now. My group is already laughing about how Im probably one of 5 people on the planet who played Metalica and Raven consistently for years before they were cool (with the exception of the order of companions Castellan of course)
Not to mention the whole 28w knight that you can heal as if it's any old vehicles so in our case a potenjtial 8w per turn
Olthannon wrote: I seem to recall in Graham McNeil's books the skitarii do get shunted and controlled by their commanders under extreme circumstances in order to rapidly increase their tactical control. Maybe they are doing something like that with the control rod?
McNeil's books came out before they started solidifying them on the tabletop.
Or maybe it's servitor related like Kanluwen said. I always thought we could do with more servitors on the roster, would be cool to see some other creations..
Random thinking over the time we've been in limbo has been making me think they'll add "Mindlock" to the Kataphrons as a way of potentially balancing out some new buffing to the 'intelligent' stuff like the Electropriests, Sicarian, and Skitarii.
Olthannon wrote: I seem to recall in Graham McNeil's books the skitarii do get shunted and controlled by their commanders under extreme circumstances in order to rapidly increase their tactical control. Maybe they are doing something like that with the control rod?
McNeil's books came out before they started solidifying them on the tabletop.
Or maybe it's servitor related like Kanluwen said. I always thought we could do with more servitors on the roster, would be cool to see some other creations..
Random thinking over the time we've been in limbo has been making me think they'll add "Mindlock" to the Kataphrons as a way of potentially balancing out some new buffing to the 'intelligent' stuff like the Electropriests, Sicarian, and Skitarii.
Sure enough, I just figure if they're calling the character a "marshal" and they have a control rod..
GW aren't exactly subtle with their naming conventions. Kind of suggests something along those lines and, although older books, Forges of Mars are a worthy thing to hark back too. This codex to me would suggest finally fully merging the disparate parts of the ad mech armies and making them more fluid for 9th ed.
Frankly, it just suggests to me they finally have realized it was a colossal cock-up blending the two in the first place.
Thing to note with regards to the idea you're talking about? That's what the "Alpha" grade Doctrina Imperatives were meant to be. They were supposed to represent the Techpriest in orbit overriding the noosphere and effectively 'assuming direct control'.
I genuinely do not know what to expect with regards to this Marshal. There seems to be some hinting/insinuations in the teaser that make me think it's truly meant to be an AdMech Lieutenant rather than a Skitarii HQ--if that statement makes sense?
The Marshal might do more for Skitarii than Servitors or Robots, but I definitely do feel like that might be the angle they're going for here.
Just in:
The Defense Cohort turns everything basically into Secutarii. You lose your Forge World Dogma for such units, albeit other units in the same detachment can still gain it.
But since the restriction is army wide....
That makes the EDH be like another FW that cannot take SKITARII units. It was debatable at best before and is now very close to utterly useless.
He will be serving us as a lieutenant, according to Warhammer community's statement.
Im also glad that he isnt an Alpha Primus, as he doesnt look crazily augmented, so lieutenant status works well for him. Looking still similiar to the baseline, but more ornate, slightly more plates, a weird pistol and I believe a mastercrafted powersword? Wouldnt make much sense to give him normal alpha equipment.
See, the biggest problem with the last codex is that it was developed with feedback from the tournament crowd, not the actual Skitarii players.
It's why Canticles lost the whole "effect scales on the number of units on the board" thing and why Doctrina Imperatives became stratagems. The tourney crowd only knew that ridiculous "War Convocation" bit, not the actual Skitarii army list.
Hence: Cult got everything they kept whining they needed on the tourney circuit("cheap troops! Kataphron are too expensive!" "Canticles become a flat thing!"), while Skitarii got basically everything unique to them gutted.
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, it just suggests to me they finally have realized it was a colossal cock-up blending the two in the first place.
Thing to note with regards to the idea you're talking about? That's what the "Alpha" grade Doctrina Imperatives were meant to be. They were supposed to represent the Techpriest in orbit overriding the noosphere and effectively 'assuming direct control'.
I genuinely do not know what to expect with regards to this Marshal. There seems to be some hinting/insinuations in the teaser that make me think it's truly meant to be an AdMech Lieutenant rather than a Skitarii HQ--if that statement makes sense?
The Marshal might do more for Skitarii than Servitors or Robots, but I definitely do feel like that might be the angle they're going for here.
Id like to see him have something different that isnt just reroll either 1s to hit or wound. Id like him to have an ability like our Holy Orders where he picks from a list of 3 imperatives each command phase. Something like an ability that helps with objectives, 1 for movement and 1 for shooting/combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
0XFallen wrote: He will be serving us as a lieutenant, according to Warhammer community's statement.
Im also glad that he isnt an Alpha Primus, as he doesnt look crazily augmented, so lieutenant status works well for him. Looking still similiar to the baseline, but more ornate, slightly more plates, a weird pistol and I believe a mastercrafted powersword? Wouldnt make much sense to give him normal alpha equipment.
When reading Skitariius, Haldron-44 Stroika doesnt seem that more heavily augmented to your standard Alpha. Yeah he has 4 arms of which 2 are stored away, 2 Arc pistols and 2 Arc Mauls but he isnt anymore augmented than that. He still has a Skitarii warframe but with a full rotable torso, less organics and more cogitators. The Marshal to me looks noticably different from Skitarii but still has ties to them which is what I would expect.
What wargear would you want an Alpha-Primus to have? Whilst Stroika is cool and all, I wouldnt want Arc weapons. A new Phosphor Serpenta is completely fine, itll atleast be better than a Phosphor Blast Pistol. I dont really care about the melee weapon, Skitarii will never compete with the really heavy hitters of other factions. A Skitarii's true power should come from his commanding abilities. The amount of data he can take in, battlefield predictions and figuring out weak points of the enemy, then relying that to his troops, thats his real power. He should be a super computer (just not like a Dominus) that is always 1 step ahead of the opponent.
I think the way 9E is probably going to work is that the Priests will buff Core units, which will be all of our infantry, maybe minus Servitors and Secutarii. The Marshal buffs Skitarii. The Datasmith buffs Robots.
Suzuteo wrote: I think the way 9E is probably going to work is that the Priests will buff Core units, which will be all of our infantry, maybe minus Servitors and Secutarii. The Marshal buffs Skitarii. The Datasmith buffs Robots.
And then its just a matter of waht of any Skitarii vehicles get Core. Talos are Core in the new Dark Eldar Codex so maybe Dragoons and/or Ballistarii will be Core too but the Onager and Skorpius wont. Personally I would love the Onager to get Core, its so distinct and thematic too our army and for a long time was our workhorse both in the lore and on tabletop. Sadly it got phased out a bit by the Disintegrator (I still use the Onager because it looks better and I love them more than anything... ) but it would create a nice distinction between the Onager having less guns but more support and the Disintegrator having more raw firepower but less synergies.
Suzuteo wrote: I think the way 9E is probably going to work is that the Priests will buff Core units, which will be all of our infantry, maybe minus Servitors and Secutarii. The Marshal buffs Skitarii. The Datasmith buffs Robots.
And then its just a matter of waht of any Skitarii vehicles get Core. Talos are Core in the new Dark Eldar Codex so maybe Dragoons and/or Ballistarii will be Core too but the Onager and Skorpius wont. Personally I would love the Onager to get Core, its so distinct and thematic too our army and for a long time was our workhorse both in the lore and on tabletop. Sadly it got phased out a bit by the Disintegrator (I still use the Onager because it looks better and I love them more than anything... ) but it would create a nice distinction between the Onager having less guns but more support and the Disintegrator having more raw firepower but less synergies.
To be fair, Talos are not vehicles. In any case, the only Core vehicle I can think of are the Robots. I don't think any Skitarii vehicles will get Core. I actually hope this is the case, actually, since it would help us diversify list-building. Right now, Mars is too damn good at everything because double Canticles and Cawl aura pretty much make everything viable.
Suzuteo wrote: I think the way 9E is probably going to work is that the Priests will buff Core units, which will be all of our infantry, maybe minus Servitors and Secutarii. The Marshal buffs Skitarii. The Datasmith buffs Robots.
And then its just a matter of waht of any Skitarii vehicles get Core. Talos are Core in the new Dark Eldar Codex so maybe Dragoons and/or Ballistarii will be Core too but the Onager and Skorpius wont. Personally I would love the Onager to get Core, its so distinct and thematic too our army and for a long time was our workhorse both in the lore and on tabletop. Sadly it got phased out a bit by the Disintegrator (I still use the Onager because it looks better and I love them more than anything... ) but it would create a nice distinction between the Onager having less guns but more support and the Disintegrator having more raw firepower but less synergies.
To be fair, Talos are not vehicles. In any case, the only Core vehicle I can think of are the Robots. I don't think any Skitarii vehicles will get Core. I actually hope this is the case, actually, since it would help us diversify list-building. Right now, Mars is too damn good at everything because double Canticles and Cawl aura pretty much make everything viable.
Talos are monsters, the lines between monster and vehicle have been blurred in 8th and 9th than it did in 7th and further back. The only distinction between the two now is keywords. Talos are more akin to Dreadnoughts and Deff Dreads, however they get to be in squads. To match them it would be Dragoons/Ballistarii, and if GW is crazy enough Kastellans. Mars are one form of the army and it shouldnt define the whole faction. What happens with Mars stays with Mars, it doesnt pass over into the other Forgeworlds. If anything all the Forgeworlds should be strong and thematic instead of Mars governing how we play and at the end of the day its how they change or rewrite Canticles. Onagers dont really gain much compared to the Skorpius. It doesnt have the number of shots to really benefit from Holy Orders, it can get reroll 1s to hit from Benediction of the Omnissah (if it doesnt change) so doesnt really need a Dominus. As I stated before it all depends on what happens to Mars and the other Dogmas.
I havent used Mars since the start of 8th and been Stygies and now Lucius and I dont miss being Mars or using Cawl. Id rather GW be fair when doing our Codex and not just cater to Mars as a definetion as to what happens to our army.
Suzuteo wrote: I think the way 9E is probably going to work is that the Priests will buff Core units, which will be all of our infantry, maybe minus Servitors and Secutarii. The Marshal buffs Skitarii. The Datasmith buffs Robots.
And then its just a matter of waht of any Skitarii vehicles get Core. Talos are Core in the new Dark Eldar Codex so maybe Dragoons and/or Ballistarii will be Core too but the Onager and Skorpius wont. Personally I would love the Onager to get Core, its so distinct and thematic too our army and for a long time was our workhorse both in the lore and on tabletop. Sadly it got phased out a bit by the Disintegrator (I still use the Onager because it looks better and I love them more than anything... ) but it would create a nice distinction between the Onager having less guns but more support and the Disintegrator having more raw firepower but less synergies.
To be fair, Talos are not vehicles. In any case, the only Core vehicle I can think of are the Robots. I don't think any Skitarii vehicles will get Core. I actually hope this is the case, actually, since it would help us diversify list-building. Right now, Mars is too damn good at everything because double Canticles and Cawl aura pretty much make everything viable.
The problem we've got is that most of our good stuff (Fulgurites aside) is all shooting and just about every buff we have makes shooting better and all the stuff around melee things is more awkward to deliver. Thematically they're reluctant to give us any kind of focus that isnt shooting, even though we actually have a butt load of melee units that are just totally sidelined and under utilised because they've pidgeon-holed us as a superior shooting army. I mean that's fine, we intentionallty have no psychic component either, but then neither do Necrons but they managed to work something flavourful into their codex.
If the DE codex is anything to go by I think they might finally be open to giving armies multiple options for getting stuff done. I'd like us to have some kind of cyberturgy, not just computer-based psychers though, something cleverer. I didn't start this army in 7th because it was simple to play, i wanted challenging complexity that when worked right gave quirky powerful results. i dont want copies of other army abilities just to 'fit in' I mean holy order WT could easily just be chants, like litanies for chaplains. That would give our characters some interesting flexible utility and still free up WT to give each model something cool.
Suzuteo wrote: I think the way 9E is probably going to work is that the Priests will buff Core units, which will be all of our infantry, maybe minus Servitors and Secutarii. The Marshal buffs Skitarii. The Datasmith buffs Robots.
The problem we've got is that most of our good stuff (Fulgurites aside) is all shooting and just about every buff we have makes shooting better and all the stuff around melee things is more awkward to deliver. Thematically they're reluctant to give us any kind of focus that isnt shooting, even though we actually have a butt load of melee units that are just totally sidelined and under utilised because they've pidgeon-holed us as a superior shooting army. I mean that's fine, we intentionallty have no psychic component either, but then neither do Necrons but they managed to work something flavourful into their codex.
If the DE codex is anything to go by I think they might finally be open to giving armies multiple options for getting stuff done. I'd like us to have some kind of cyberturgy, not just computer-based psychers though, something cleverer. I didn't start this army in 7th because it was simple to play, i wanted challenging complexity that when worked right gave quirky powerful results. i dont want copies of other army abilities just to 'fit in' I mean holy order WT could easily just be chants, like litanies for chaplains. That would give our characters some interesting flexible utility and still free up WT to give each model something cool.
I agree fully with everything youve said, also our armies is more vehicle focused than most, except Imperial Guard. As you've said we are shooting superiority army, its been that way since 7th but we also had some melee flexibility then too, now the focus is primarily shooting of which we are arguably the best in the game for that. The other problem which I hope gets resolved is we still have 2 identities in this 1 book, like DE with their 3 subfactions. Skitarii and Cult are different. Its hard to guess what GW would do looking at the prior 9th ed codexes where some have had revamps and others not much of a change except wargear.
The two codex identities are the same though. We don't have cult that's more melee focussed and skitarii that's more vehicle and shooting focused; They're both shooty-centric with the same smattering of melee and trickery. But it's going to take some sizeable re-writes to change that and that could potentially upset a lot of people who took their chosen Forgeworld or persuasion of admech for how they are now. It'd be a bit of a culture shift.
The only reason we have shooting superiority at the moment is that we have several units that just saturate a target with shots that we can apply a multitude of layered buffs and effects to. In a way, we're a horde army where the horde is the number of shots lol. Quality of shooting is only important up to a certain threshold, robots hit that, so do intercessors. High ap high damage doesn't work in 9th.
They need to do something to give us our niche back, because right now we're just weaker marines with better weapons that don't translate to more kills.
Oh I dunno, balistarri got assault lascannons and autocannons, an extra 2 shots in autocannon profile and the improved 3+ save. Rather fire 6 autocannon shots into combat that 4 of those lances. No engagement penalty either!
depends, the dragoon has 1 more S and 1 more AP in comparison. So, summed up, if we assume each one makes a difference, that is a 16.67% increase in efficiency on each layer and the dragoons might have retained their exploding 6's which makes it more like 5 attacks on avg.
So if you get it into melee and the S and AP matter it does outperform the autocannon for probably less points with the added benefit of being able to explode even further with lucky rolls. And if someone kills it you can explode it for added MWs.
Thairne wrote: depends, the dragoon has 1 more S and 1 more AP in comparison. So, summed up, if we assume each one makes a difference, that is a 16.67% increase in efficiency on each layer and the dragoons might have retained their exploding 6's which makes it more like 5 attacks on avg.
So if you get it into melee and the S and AP matter it does outperform the autocannon for probably less points with the added benefit of being able to explode even further with lucky rolls. And if someone kills it you can explode it for added MWs.
I mean everything you said is true. But taser lances are melee only, you cant taser lance someone from 48" away, but you can fire an autocannon with no penalty at point blank range. My interpretation of the extra shots on auto cannon is that we're due some toning down of all our no-brainer + to hit buffs so the extra shots compensate for that lesser buff. If the trade off is one less str and ap it's gonna come down to what you're throwing them at. They're still pretty fragile against any counter melee with a 3+/6++ unless the -1 to hit also works in melee, that would be nice.
It's a shame the jezzail isnt 2dmg as well, that would actually make it a pretty decent option. Hopefully phosphor gets some useful extra rule because that straight profile isnt worth taking any points on, it should be free with the lance imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some more leaks:
Raiders and Sulphurhounds went to 2W but T4
Sulphur breath is 12" str 4 ap2 now
Phosphor blast pistol has D3 shots
Galvanic carbines gained ap 1
Both gained an attack
Arc maul went to +3 str ap2
Also all true, but I'd like them to be balanced that way.
Getting them into melee is naturally harder than just shooting something, but you get an increased payoff for managing that.
Or you could consider Dragoons like offensive missiles, whereas Balistarii are a nice defensive screening unit.
That wound nerf and T buff hurt doggos bad. T4 2W is marine profile - its so common ´with marines and 2D weapons everywhere, they might as well be guardsmen with better movement at that point...
Thairne wrote: Also all true, but I'd like them to be balanced that way.
Getting them into melee is naturally harder than just shooting something, but you get an increased payoff for managing that.
Or you could consider Dragoons like offensive missiles, whereas Balistarii are a nice defensive screening unit.
That wound nerf and T buff hurt doggos bad. T4 2W is marine profile - its so common ´with marines and 2D weapons everywhere, they might as well be guardsmen with better movement at that point...
Yeah i mean if the idea is to buff new codexes inline with marine improvements, these are still inferior to marines in every way now. A single volley from just about any non-trash troop weapon will drop an entire squad of 6 of these, whereas you might still have had 3 or 4 left previously.
So far we're a net buff though I think:
Ballistarii buffed
Dragoons buffed
Raiders need to be obsec to be useful now.
Sulphurhounds buffed and are probably worth their points now if they stay the same.
Really could have done with that 3+ WS on both serbyrus units though.
Madjob wrote: Galvanic Rifles likely to follow suit with -1 AP by default? I don't see why the Carbines would have it and the Rifles not.
I'd expect so.
I hope the Sterylizor flamers gets a similarly impressive update like the sulphur breath, it would be pretty dull if it was the same as sulphur, phospor needs something to keep it competitive or i'm gonna be somewhat annoyed. I didn't magnetise my pteraxii or serbyrus because they're too fiddly and tiny. I have a whole load of raiders that are now not as useful as sulphurhounds on the surface and if sterylizors dont have some extra utility on their flamers or somewhere else then sulphurhounds are a better flamer option as well.
The Autocannon buff worries me. That and the Assault change tell me they are trying to break up Mars being good at everything. But it's happening a lot more aggressively than I'd thought...
If that was their goal, they'd just have to make Cawl forgeworld neutral and change the canticle/strat.
That would be the most sensible approach to fix Mars - changing autocannon profiles and all weapons around seems a bit excessive in comparison.
I think they changed it to assault not because of mars, but because they want their identity to be fragile, mobile firepower, a flanking force. And if you can advance and fire the autocannons, you achieved that goal. I mean thats a potential 16" move which would accomplish exactly that.
Suzuteo wrote: The Autocannon buff worries me. That and the Assault change tell me they are trying to break up Mars being good at everything. But it's happening a lot more aggressively than I'd thought...
I wouldnt be worried about Mars, this is just to give Cognis weapons their identity and purpose back instead of just being weird heavy weapons that didnt really do anything except on Ballistari, Duneriders and the Fusilave. Changing it to assault means Metalica gets to benefit from it, everyone can fire them in CC without the -1 to hit and we dont have some super ganky ruling that isnt really for 9th edition anymore.
And anyway we dont know if Forgeworld specific Canticles will stay around or be changed. As far as the trends have shown none of the PA content has stayed around when a new 9th ed Codex has came out with that related faction in, except Black Templars? And not all the content is merged into the new Codexes to, for example Space Wolves.
Really I would love all Forgeworlds to get changed, including Mars. Mars shouldnt define the book or what our units are equipped with. All Dogmas should be viable. I reckon the Codex will change quite drastically from what we have now, something akin to Dark Eldar.
The change to cognis is a nice indicator that someone is actually giving us some thought at least. Not just a rehash or tweak like our last codex.
Just a shame our only other cognis weapons are heavy stubbers lol Although...if they went to Assault 4 each thats our horde supression sorted! lol
Hmm did regular marine autocannons get more shots? Cognis lascannons stayed at 1 each.
Also just ocurred to me that sluphur breath on the hounds is now identical to luiquifier guns that Wracks just got in the new Drukharii codex, except in theory ours still ignore cover.
Octovol wrote: The change to cognis is a nice indicator that someone is actually giving us some thought at least. Not just a rehash or tweak like our last codex.
Just a shame our only other cognis weapons are heavy stubbers lol Although...if they went to Assault 4 each thats our horde supression sorted! lol
Hmm did regular marine autocannons get more shots? Cognis lascannons stayed at 1 each.
Also just ocurred to me that sluphur breath on the hounds is now identical to luiquifier guns that Wracks just got in the new Drukharii codex, except in theory ours still ignore cover.
Weve got cognis flamers too on our kataphron and those stubbers are everywhere so every buff hits us well
Do we know that these are still basic lascannons and not say las-talons or las-fusils? The Assault descriptor also means that they can be fired in melee without penalty unless I'm mistaken.
How are they handling points changes? Are they leaving the field manuals as the sole source for these? It would be nice to know if the serberys units are going up in points, for example.
bmsattler wrote: Do we know that these are still basic lascannons and not say las-talons or las-fusils? The Assault descriptor also means that they can be fired in melee without penalty unless I'm mistaken.
How are they handling points changes? Are they leaving the field manuals as the sole source for these? It would be nice to know if the serberys units are going up in points, for example.
most things will probably be costed higher.
Those are cognis class weapons from the lascannon
Octovol wrote: The change to cognis is a nice indicator that someone is actually giving us some thought at least. Not just a rehash or tweak like our last codex.
Just a shame our only other cognis weapons are heavy stubbers lol Although...if they went to Assault 4 each thats our horde supression sorted! lol
Hmm did regular marine autocannons get more shots? Cognis lascannons stayed at 1 each.
Also just ocurred to me that sluphur breath on the hounds is now identical to luiquifier guns that Wracks just got in the new Drukharii codex, except in theory ours still ignore cover.
Suppressors got 3 shot Autocannons, I think the Invictor got a 6 shot twin version. Their Heavy Stubbers are 4 shots too (and AP1)? Predator's Autocannon became 2D3 shots. The difference with Wracks is they can be Dark Techno to improve those Liquifiers further.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bmsattler wrote: Do we know that these are still basic lascannons and not say las-talons or las-fusils? The Assault descriptor also means that they can be fired in melee without penalty unless I'm mistaken.
How are they handling points changes? Are they leaving the field manuals as the sole source for these? It would be nice to know if the serberys units are going up in points, for example.
Im assuming this will be the how Lascannons will be from now one, its just that as Cognis they become Assault instead of Heavy which makes sense. The old Cognis was pretty much pseudo Assault but worse. Then with Engine war it made Mars Ballistarii better due to +1 strength to Heavy weapons. A Dark Lance used to trade range and strength for AP4 (and further back in the past counting AV 13+ as 12). Now they have D3+3 damage which is a huge difference to Lascannons and also Bright Lances (ill guess when Craftworlds get done they will get the same D3+3 damage change).
The points will be in the Codex when it comes out and then annual updates in the Chapter Approved Field Manual. My guess is preorder the 17th of April for our Codex, out by the 24th.
The Icarus appears to be unchanged, but that's fine cause it was in a good spot before (and it will probably lose it's -1 to hit against non-flying targets, but we gotta wait for that).
The Eradication beamer got a pretty tasty profile bump, but D6 shots still make me not too happy about it, though it might have an ability or strat that lets you reroll the number of shots or something.
The one I was most excited about was the Neutron Laser, which got a slight buff from D6(min3) damage to D3+3, and a strength improvement from 10 to 12. However like the Eradication Beamer, the D3 shots with it still kill the weapon for me.
the Twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster is looking real tasty, though
going from 6 attacks to 8, and D1 to D2 make it a pretty solid choice against marines. Also implies that Kastelan robots are going to 12 shots, S6, -2AP, D2 which is .d.i.s.g.u.s.t.i.n.g.
The Icarus appears to be unchanged, but that's fine cause it was in a good spot before (and it will probably lose it's -1 to hit against non-flying targets, but we gotta wait for that).
The Eradication beamer got a pretty tasty profile bump, but D6 shots still make me not too happy about it, though it might have an ability or strat that lets you reroll the number of shots or something.
The one I was most excited about was the Neutron Laser, which got a slight buff from D6(min3) damage to D3+3, and a strength improvement from 10 to 12. However like the Eradication Beamer, the D3 shots with it still kill the weapon for me.
the Twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster is looking real tasty, though
going from 6 attacks to 8, and D1 to D2 make it a pretty solid choice against marines. Also implies that Kastelan robots are going to 12 shots, S6, -2AP, D2 which is .d.i.s.g.u.s.t.i.n.g.
Iiiiiinteresting. Does look like all our heavy cognis stuff goes to assault, I wonder if cognis flamers will gain Blast or something given they're already assault...Neutron laser change is pretty irrelevant unless it can ignore invulns.
The heavy phosphor change though...if you ask me this all but confirms robot protocols are changing and they no longer double shoot. I'd wager they re-roll 1s in shooting, roll re-roll 1s in melee and if we're lucky aegis will stay the same. probably also means robots are getting more attacks, 4-5 minimum. if they also go to BS3+ that makes me very happy, less piling support on to a single unit to make it useful. Probably also means Robots won't be core as they'd be self-sufficient with their own re-rolls. This is all extrapolation of course. be nice if having a data smith nearby improved their protocols and they can switch in command phase.
Well Neutron Laser got slightly buffed. T6 targets will keel pretty quick since they tend to be around 6W. The extra min 1 dmg is nice, but all in all the Neutron Laser stayed kinda "eh" and didnt really win. Give it heavy 3 and we can talk.
Cognis stubbers tho... 4 shots assault? Run up your boats, still shoot with 16 shots? Thats a nice buff for clearing out hordes.
Eradication beamer seems to be the "close combat option", or rather, close support option. If you want to get the most of it, you have to move up and then its a pretty okish gravis killer. Again, random number of shots is absolutely terrible and swingy, but its the only weapon with 3D and negates almost the entire save of gravis. Thats a specific task you can gear your onagers for and that could help keep the opponent away.
Phosphor got way better - but if Dakkabots get the buff as well, I dont see why I should ever choose this weapon if there's downright a better version of it available and deprive myself of options.
I'm betting they remove double shoots from kastelans but make their guns damage 2. I certainly wouldn't mind it if the datasmith was given an actual job or something to do.
I like the beamer, with neutron lasers frankly not stacking up to lascannon Ballistarii, I think I'm going double Beamer on my dunecrawlers and not being shy about moving them up the board. S8 will occasionally force hard decisions on transhuman against space marine armies, and the extra ap typically translates to the same as the ignores cover on phosphor... assuming of course that's still how phosphor is going to work.
Thairne wrote: Well Neutron Laser got slightly buffed. T6 targets will keel pretty quick since they tend to be around 6W. The extra min 1 dmg is nice, but all in all the Neutron Laser stayed kinda "eh" and didnt really win. Give it heavy 3 and we can talk.
Cognis stubbers tho... 4 shots assault? Run up your boats, still shoot with 16 shots? Thats a nice buff for clearing out hordes.
Eradication beamer seems to be the "close combat option", or rather, close support option. If you want to get the most of it, you have to move up and then its a pretty okish gravis killer. Again, random number of shots is absolutely terrible and swingy, but its the only weapon with 3D and negates almost the entire save of gravis. Thats a specific task you can gear your onagers for and that could help keep the opponent away.
Phosphor got way better - but if Dakkabots get the buff as well, I dont see why I should ever choose this weapon if there's downright a better version of it available and deprive myself of options.
My guess is Kastellans get their own variant of Phosphor because lets be real, it looks nothing like the Heavy Phosphor Blasters on the Onager and Stratoraptor. That way their is a distinction between an Onager and a couple of Kastellans. 1 is mass damage 1 shots the other fewer damage 2 shots. The Kastellans are bound to loose double shoot but could be upped to BS3 standard or as a protocol.
Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.
Thairne wrote: Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.
Looking through the 9th edition Codexes, fire twice has sort of vanished just like 3++ invulns. Now Eradicators break that trend as they can still fire twice but everything else that had it has lost it or gain a different rule like +1 to hit (Executioner). I wouldnt mind loosing double shoot, if they made Kastellans more interesting in general.
Thairne wrote: Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.
Looking through the 9th edition Codexes, fire twice has sort of vanished just like 3++ invulns. Now Eradicators break that trend as they can still fire twice but everything else that had it has lost it or gain a different rule like +1 to hit (Executioner). I wouldnt mind loosing double shoot, if they made Kastellans more interesting in general.
There are at least 3 I can think of off the top of my head from the Drukhari codex, Master Archon ability is straight up just, choose to fight twice, once. Strife strat for wyches to fight twice. There'a standard strat to do the same for other units. There werent that many units that could do it as a regular ability anyway were there? what units have lost fight or shoot twice that had it as a natural ability?
Automatically Appended Next Post: personally i'd like to see robots move to two protocol mode. Durable and punchy or better at shooting. Because that halfway house aegis mode just seems pointless when nobody stays in it.
Or just flat give them a 2+/4++ without any protocol changes. They're already more expensive points and power-wise than most dreadnaughts and not as good.
Thairne wrote: Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.
Looking through the 9th edition Codexes, fire twice has sort of vanished just like 3++ invulns. Now Eradicators break that trend as they can still fire twice but everything else that had it has lost it or gain a different rule like +1 to hit (Executioner). I wouldnt mind loosing double shoot, if they made Kastellans more interesting in general.
There are at least 3 I can think of off the top of my head from the Drukhari codex, Master Archon ability is straight up just, choose to fight twice, once. Strife strat for wyches to fight twice. There'a standard strat to do the same for other units. There werent that many units that could do it as a regular ability anyway were there? what units have lost fight or shoot twice that had it as a natural ability?
Automatically Appended Next Post: personally i'd like to see robots move to two protocol mode. Durable and punchy or better at shooting. Because that halfway house aegis mode just seems pointless when nobody stays in it.
Or just flat give them a 2+/4++ without any protocol changes. They're already more expensive points and power-wise than most dreadnaughts and not as good.
Fight twice is a lot different from shoot twice and whilst it might be the same in regards to the unit activating twice, one is more powerful than the other. There are loads of fight twice mechanics in 9th, not so much for shoot twice any more. To name a couple a Repulsor Executioner lost shooting its turret twice, Aggressors also lost shooting twice if they stood still. Whilst combat might be easier to reach for some armies (like Dark Eldar), its generally easier to have those units that shoot again become oppressive, especially when you add in rerolls, synergies and little risk. Wyches mostly kill what they target now, fighting twice isnt really needed on them, Master Archons arent all that great in combat, sure with a Djinn Blade he is damage 3, but hes also Str 4, not exactly a world breaker.
Fight twice through out 9th edition Codexes have become more focused in who gets to do it instead of generalising it for the whole army but shooting twice has been more likely to be removed unless your Eradicators. One is oppressive the other not so much.
I'd really love them if they made them more durable, punchy bots more punchy, and shooty bois less shooty. I love the robots and have to either take only 2 or just leave them out of my lists because I don't want my friends to have any feels badsies. Though with my one friend who plays ultramarines and death guard kind of deserves it because I seriously struggle otherwise.
Pteraxii Skystalkers flechette carbine reduced range by 6" Why? No one was using them anyway how does that differentiate them from Infiltrators now? I dont get it, supposed to be increasing effectiveness and yet both Pteraxii stayed the same or got worse...
have to wait for abilities but it's gonna take Sterylizors getting the no-fallback talons ability for free and Skystalkers are really gonna need something more than those grenades to make them usable. Unless the grenades are as awesome as the voidbombers that is lol
Octovol wrote: Pteraxii Skystalkers flechette carbine reduced range by 6" Why? No one was using them anyway how does that differentiate them from Infiltrators now? I dont get it, supposed to be increasing effectiveness and yet both Pteraxii stayed the same or got worse...
have to wait for abilities but it's gonna take Sterylizors getting the no-fallback talons ability for free and Skystalkers are really gonna need something more than those grenades to make them usable. Unless the grenades are as awesome as the voidbombers that is lol
Maybe theyll get the reroll wound rolls back but I doubt it
Octovol wrote: Pteraxii Skystalkers flechette carbine reduced range by 6" Why? No one was using them anyway how does that differentiate them from Infiltrators now? I dont get it, supposed to be increasing effectiveness and yet both Pteraxii stayed the same or got worse...
have to wait for abilities but it's gonna take Sterylizors getting the no-fallback talons ability for free and Skystalkers are really gonna need something more than those grenades to make them usable. Unless the grenades are as awesome as the voidbombers that is lol
Maybe theyll get the reroll wound rolls back but I doubt it
As they're staying S3 I also doubt flechette is getting reroll wounds back.
What's the general thought on the current power-level of Dunecrawlers kited with Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays?
They seem pretty good on paper, and have performed really well for me in casual games, but I see pretty wide-spread ratings of them across various army rundowns, and never seem to see crab tanks in competitive lists.
Are the more buff-centric Ironstriders/Breachers/Kastellens really that much more lethal in shooting that Dunecrawlers are left in the dust?
We don't know enough yet about the new changes to say going forward.
Previously? Yeah, Icarus Array and Neutron Lasers just miss out on being useful. Ironstriders and Kastellens deal with everything else more efficiently.
I ran the math earlier in this thread. Fully buffed (Cawl, Mars, strats, Warlord traits), two Lascannon Ironstriders at 150 points deal 10.3 wounds to T7 3+. A Ferrumite Skorpius deals 9.6. A Neutron Laser Dunestrider deals 4.7 with full buffs, though most don't help. If you adjust for the point difference, a 155pt Dunecrawler would deal 5.8 damage. Icarus Arrays are worse than that, though not by much since more buffs apply. That's why the Array is better, since you're already buffing it to keep pace with the Neutron Laser, but you're also superior against any other targets. Of course, Kastellans are stronger still against non-vehicles than the Icarus Array.
The fewer buffs you have, the more competitive Dunecrawlers become. The problem with the current codex is that buffs can double the efficiency of some units. The rest of the book has to be balanced around that efficacy, which pigeon-holes you into playing those buffs to keep up.
Low rate of fire shots is always swingy. Neutron Lasers can and often do completely obliterate something, but can also very easily whiff and since the vehicle really has nothing else but that one gun it feels totally wasted if it whiffs (or pings off invuls) Theyre not bad but usually theyre a list filler not a main focus. They are cheap after all.
I think Icarus Arrays fell off favor in 9th, forget why but i never hear people talk about them.
I guess with the hit cap, flyers didnt really pose that much of a challenge for regular guns so that the advantage of the Icarus was outweight by the disadvantage of having that debuff when not shooting flyers. Taking dedicated AA was a net negative and therefore fell off...?
Makes sense.
It will probably change as other AA guns have to not mention that but only offer the +1 to hit against Aircraft rather than Fly. Wonder if we see it become favored again if that happens (since we know the stats atm but as with all of those in-box datasheet leaks they dont ever show special rules)
DarkHound wrote: We don't know enough yet about the new changes to say going forward.
Previously? Yeah, Icarus Array and Neutron Lasers just miss out on being useful. Ironstriders and Kastellens deal with everything else more efficiently.
I ran the math earlier in this thread. Fully buffed (Cawl, Mars, strats, Warlord traits), two Lascannon Ironstriders at 150 points deal 10.3 wounds to T7 3+. A Ferrumite Skorpius deals 9.6. A Neutron Laser Dunestrider deals 4.7 with full buffs, though most don't help. If you adjust for the point difference, a 155pt Dunecrawler would deal 5.8 damage. Icarus Arrays are worse than that, though not by much since more buffs apply. That's why the Array is better, since you're already buffing it to keep pace with the Neutron Laser, but you're also superior against any other targets. Of course, Kastellans are stronger still against non-vehicles than the Icarus Array.
The fewer buffs you have, the more competitive Dunecrawlers become. The problem with the current codex is that buffs can double the efficiency of some units. The rest of the book has to be balanced around that efficacy, which pigeon-holes you into playing those buffs to keep up.
This makes a lot of sense and echoes what I was beginning to understand in quick, simple, easy to understand terms with crisp math-hammer to back it up.
My anecdotal success must be based on me and my buddy not running optimized lists (and, admittedly, a string of likely very hot dice on a pair of Neutron Lasers).
I think the biggest benefit to the Icarus Array is the fact we have a strat that gives +2 to hit for a Skitarii unit, taking it from -1 to hit a non-flyer to +1 to hit. Assuming we lose the +2 bonus, Icarus Array loses a lot of efficiency.
Well, the Array is only one weapon so you can't split its fire to maximize each gun. The stats of each profile tend to result in the same average damage per gun against most targets, though the gattling rocket launcher usually lags a bit behind. It is very consistent through volume of fire though.
The biggest benefit is just how many ways it can be buffed. Mars +1, +2 stratagem, re-rolls, additional AP are all substantial improvements, and can surpass the Neutron laser against vehicles in many cases.
Huge boost to Arc rifles there, holy cow. I also appreciate the cognis flamer change.
Do we still like Arc Rifles on Rangers? Obviously the bump to 30" lets us use them as a bit of extra anti-vehicle leverage while they objective sit, but flat 3 damage and 4+ to wound against vehicles makes me really want to have them in rapid fire range which vanguard are better suited for.
