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The more I dig into Kataphron lists, the more interesting I find them. What do you guys think about these lists?

Kataphron lists are basically anvil and hammer. You got a big mass of durable and efficient infantry crawling toward the midboard backed by more mobile and hard-hitting elements.

I think the big problem is that everyone thinks you need to run like 30 Kataphrons. But I think the maximum should be 20. Beyond that, you are sacrificing more and more mobility.

Bumping for some assistance!

Considering a slight modification to my main list:


Castle is Cawl, Enginseer, 5x Ironstriders, and 2x Disintegrators. The key modification is that I dropped the third Disintegrator and Vanguard for a unit of 4x Breachers, a Raider, and upgraded my Enginseer to a Manipulus. The way I see it, the Breachers hold objectives better, have better anti-vehicle shooting than the Disintegrator, and they can fight in a pinch. A big unit of 9x Raiders is a ridiculously strong anti-character threat; with the EDT, you can advance and then use Doctrina for BS2 shooting. You can reliably kill Apothecaries, Wolf Priests, Smash Captains, Troupe Masters, Shadowseers, Imagifiers, etc. Manipulus helps get these guys out the gate with 2" advance or 6" extra shooting on turn one.

The rest is as it was before. Assault teams of 2x10 Fulgurites in Boats, strike package of 2x5 Vanguard in a Drill for Scramblers and Linebreaker.

Let us know if you miss the fliers.

Just played against a slaanesh opponent and once
Again the bombers were amazing

@Ideasweasel
I think I will need to get a second Fusilave. Every time I bring one, it's the first thing that dies. Now, being an AdMech player, I don't mind a bullet magnet (after all, we're all about that threat saturation), but it sucks not getting any bombs in.

I've only used the flyers on TTS (only games I've played this year) but they 100% need to be brought in pairs.

the bombing and seismic bomb are great and the getting engage on all fronts is ace, when mixed with the -1 to hit and 6+++ from data horde they're a great bullet sponge, they'll filled the hole left by dragoons nerf in my list (with less of the "I can kil your entire army if these hit you" threat) and absorb a great deal of firepower t1.

 laam999 wrote:
I've only used the flyers on TTS (only games I've played this year) but they 100% need to be brought in pairs.

the bombing and seismic bomb are great and the getting engage on all fronts is ace, when mixed with the -1 to hit and 6+++ from data horde they're a great bullet sponge, they'll filled the hole left by dragoons nerf in my list (with less of the "I can kil your entire army if these hit you" threat) and absorb a great deal of firepower t1.

Dragoons were definitely my favorite unit. My Gangbusters list in 8E had 4 Robots, 4 Las Chickens, 6 Dragoons. It was pretty epic.

Watched one of those Eternal Conquerers Necron lists totally dismantle a Salamanders list. The combination of 3x9 Scarabs and 3x5 Wraiths in an Outrider with 6" pregame move and ObSec makes for a ridiculously mobile and strong assault army that just passes through terrain like it's nothing. You pretty much cannot get to objectives first, and even if you do, they will outnumber you for ObSec. So the only real solution I see, barring new rules, is to shoot them off and charge the survivors. Problem is, Scarabs cost only 3.75 points per wound; chewing through 108 of them is really tough.

So it got me thinking: What about switching our firebase to MSUs of Mars Grav Destroyers? Good math against Gravis, Wraiths, Breachers, etc., passable for Scarabs. Glassy, but threat overload is how AdMech has always played. Hide them behind obscuring terrain and pop in (or out) to shoot through windows.


2x Disintegrators or 2x Fusilaves? The former is nice for WWSWF and targeting hidden units. The latter for Engage and thinning hordes. Leaning toward Fusilaves because Engage is more generally pickable, and reliable mortal wounds are never anything to scoff at, especially since you can drop bombs on things Fulgurites are fighting.

How have you been finding destroyers? Are they doing the work?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
How have you been finding destroyers? Are they doing the work?

No opportunity to play. My area is locked down pretty tight. But in my past experience, they were VERY good. Once my opponent saw how much damage they output, he would go out of his way to wipe them off the board. In any case, it's still relatively easy to hide them as MSUs, and you can spend 2 CP to outflank 2x3 of them--perhaps with the Servitors. If your opponent does not get rid of them quickly, their damage really piles up. And that's the entire notion of threat saturation. Everything in the list pretty much is a must-kill with better output efficiency than durability.

Would you then run Cawl to a board edge?

Cause BS4 worries me. Cawl has been saving my bacon recently with reroll of misses.

If and when core shafts the army and rerolls I may be sad. But if they just remove rerolls and improve our units then I’m ok

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Would you then run Cawl to a board edge?

Cause BS4 worries me. Cawl has been saving my bacon recently with reroll of misses.

If and when core shafts the army and rerolls I may be sad. But if they just remove rerolls and improve our units then I’m ok

Generally speaking, in 9E, the board is small, so you can pretty easily get Cawl in range for BS4 if you outflank.

I think what will happen is that all the Troops and Cult Mechanicus units will get Core, and Cawl and Dominus will affect them. Meanwhile, the Skitarii will get rerolls from the Primus HQ.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Would you then run Cawl to a board edge?

Cause BS4 worries me. Cawl has been saving my bacon recently with reroll of misses.

If and when core shafts the army and rerolls I may be sad. But if they just remove rerolls and improve our units then I’m ok

Generally speaking, in 9E, the board is small, so you can pretty easily get Cawl in range for BS4 if you outflank.

I think what will happen is that all the Troops and Cult Mechanicus units will get Core, and Cawl and Dominus will affect them. Meanwhile, the Skitarii will get rerolls from the Primus HQ.

I think that depends on whether they got the marine or chaos route. With chaos, they just made all the daemon engines BS3 but they don't get re-rolls as they're not core. For marines stuff like dreadnaughts are still core, so robots would still be core and benefit from re-rolls. Personally, i'm hoping for a combination of the two. I HATE BS4 when there's no compensating factor for it. BS4 in other armies works because the models are dirt cheap to field and there's more of them with more shots. What we have are a handful of really expensive units with BS4 that we have to pile buffs on to make useful. Which is why daemon engines were changed because they have neither or relied on disco lords to do anything at all, which is something GW is moving away from now, forces should be balanced not rely on a single crux to make them playable. We tow the line there greatly, a lot of our good units are only good because of how they're supported, get rid of the support and the threat becomes nominal. They should still be good on their own, but even better with support.

@Octovol
I mean, Skitarii are BS3 and Cult are BS4. This really seems like the most logical route to take... which probably means I will be wrong.

That said, I am most looking forward to new Forge World rules. We have suffered from Early Codex Syndrome for way too long. Given how well Necrons have been treated, I have reason to be optimistic.

Also, how the hell are we dealing with the DG-sized elephant in the room? PBCs got buffed, and they are basically unkillable to our current weapons. Unless we're going to start bringing Neutron Crawlers, Drills, or Las Chickens. Maybe Stratoraptors in some Forge Worlds. Lol.

If only the planes had decent guns.

Like flying tanks with super high AP and S would be good

As it stands the fighter variant is meh and I say this as someone who went out and bought 3 fliers haha

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Would you then run Cawl to a board edge?

Cause BS4 worries me. Cawl has been saving my bacon recently with reroll of misses.

If and when core shafts the army and rerolls I may be sad. But if they just remove rerolls and improve our units then I’m ok

Generally speaking, in 9E, the board is small, so you can pretty easily get Cawl in range for BS4 if you outflank.

I think what will happen is that all the Troops and Cult Mechanicus units will get Core, and Cawl and Dominus will affect them. Meanwhile, the Skitarii will get rerolls from the Primus HQ.

Really a Tech-Priest Dominus should effect Skitarii. At any point he can control them and get the most out of his resources, this used to be our army wide imperatives which is now a pretty dull stratagem that effects 1 unit in the shooting/fighting phase. If anything the Primus should do something totally different. He should inspire his men (if we base it off anything like Skitarius with Stroika). Where the Dominus is more cold and see's his forces as expendable, the Primus would be more attached.

Personally I dont want just the standard reroll 1s to wound aura. Id like something unique or new, maybe like some kind of My Will Be Done/Relentless March. As what will be core, well I have no idea. Skitarii are literally and army by themselves and what is core for them shouldnt be core for Cult and vice versa. Space Marines have too many things and core and Necrons barely have anything. The fighting core of the Skitarii should be its Infantry and its Walkers, so Onagers. In Skitarius Onagers play a mass role in the Skitarii War Machine. Not only are they a mobile firebase but they provide infomation to the units and also gather it like a tick and beam it back into orbit where the fleet is. They are essential to the whole data gathering process of the Admech. Skorpius, planes, Pteraxii and the cav probably wont be core.

The cult side of things? They are just such a small set of units to even know what will be core outside of Breachers and Destroyers. For all we know the Dominus could get a totally different ability (he should, being someone that studies war as a profession, reroll 1s to hit in shooting always felt super flat as some hyper analyst of battle) I dont think Kastelans should be core but I can also see them loosing double shoot (seems the direction GW is going except with Eradicators for whatever stupid reason).

Many changes in the recent FAQ drop:
1) WWSWF is now units, not models
2) Bring It Down is 1 VP for <11, 2 VP for 11-20, 3 VP for 20+. So... Archaeopters now give up only 1 VP.
3) Servitors go to 30 points for a unit of 4x. Their Meltas go down to 15 points each.
4) Fusilaves can fly into a board edge and drop bombs before being taken off the table.
5) You can now deploy Archaeopters with their wings overhanging the deployment line. (More a clarification than a change.)

Basically, Stratoraptors and Fusilaves suddenly became our best firebase units by far. The ability to build armies that do not give up any secondaries is a huge difference.

Example list:



@deffrekka
Skitarii, Kataphrons, Servitors, Electro-Priests, and Kastelan Robots would make a fine core IMO. Especially if non-Troop Skitarii are still buffed by Mask and Primus.

What’s so great about data horde?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
What’s so great about data horde?

Heavy Arc Rifles explode additional hits on unmodified 5+ hit rolls. Which in terms of the math, is equivalent to Cawl aura. With a Dominus, it's better than Cawl aura. Works in melee too.

Vehicles also get FNP. So those planes have Hard to Hit, Chaff Launchers, FNP, and repairs.

Sold!

 Suzuteo wrote:
Many changes in the recent FAQ drop:
1) WWSWF is now units, not models
2) Bring It Down is 1 VP for <11, 2 VP for 11-20, 3 VP for 20+. So... Archaeopters now give up only 1 VP.
3) Servitors go to 30 points for a unit of 4x. Their Meltas go down to 15 points each.
4) Fusilaves can fly into a board edge and drop bombs before being taken off the table.
5) You can now deploy Archaeopters with their wings overhanging the deployment line. (More a clarification than a change.)

Basically, Stratoraptors and Fusilaves suddenly became our best firebase units by far. The ability to build armies that do not give up any secondaries is a huge difference.

Example list:

Spoiler:

Data-hoard Patrol Detachment

HQ - 80
1x Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos

Troop - 350
5x Kataphron Breacher - Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc Claw
5x Kataphron Breacher - Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc Claw

Elite - 340
10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest

Transport - 200
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider

Fast Attack - 144
5x Serberys Raiders
4x Serberys Raiders

Flyer - 300
1x Archaeopter Fusilave - Chaff Launcher
1x Archaeopter Fusilave - Chaff Launcher

Data-hoard Patrol Detachment (-2 CP)

HQ - 70
1x Tech-priest Manipulus - Prime Hermeticon (-1 CP), Anzion's Pseudogenetor

Troop - 175
5x Kataphron Breacher - Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc Claw

Flyer - 340
1x Archaeopter Stratoraptor - Chaff Launcher
1x Archaeopter Stratoraptor - Chaff Launcher

Total: 1999 points
9 CP

@deffrekka
Skitarii, Kataphrons, Servitors, Electro-Priests, and Kastelan Robots would make a fine core IMO. Especially if non-Troop Skitarii are still buffed by Mask and Primus.

Id love Kastelans to be core but I just cant see it. If we look at Cult as their own mini faction, like Coven or Wyches inside Dark Eldar, they have such a small unit roster to go from. Dominus, Manipulus, Enginseer, Datasmith, Kataphrons, Electro-Priests and finally Kastelans. If all that is core then that means its the Skitarii side that will loose out on what isnt core which is a bit unfair really. I can see Kastelans and Electro-Priests not being core along with Desintegrators, Pteraxii, the planes and the possibly the Balistarii.

Really I dont see how core should be used with Admech, we never had the problems like the Space Marines where we were swimming in rerolls and auras. We have the Dominus' reroll 1s for shooting, Cawls rerolls all for shooting (if you play as Mars which im sure not all of us do, I dont), the Manipulus and then the odd sprinkling of Warlord Traits from like Graia and Metalica plus Prime Hemeticon and the Omniscient Mask. Other than that we have our healing which looking at Tech-Marines it wont be core locked. Then also we have our Canticles (which I hope get improved) which can give us rerolls 1s to shooting army wide again. So its like what does core actually do for us? Stops our characters rerolling 1s to hit with their guns they barely used? Unless we get revamped with new auras I dont see what would be core or not, as we dont really loose out on anything except Cawls aura.

@suzuteo

Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.

What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@suzuteo

Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.

What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol

Unless we get unique Lascannons or a Las Talon, I doubt we will get 4 lascannon shots from the Stratoraptor

 deffrekka wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@suzuteo

Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.

What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol

Unless we get unique Lascannons or a Las Talon, I doubt we will get 4 lascannon shots from the Stratoraptor

The thing is though, with the weapon rebalancing ours have to be rebalanced too ( except if they just dont bother). Generally and foremost we are the imperial faction with superior tech and lots of specialists, which GW confirmed in a lot of summary texts for our faction, and which is great in relation to the lore. Melta, power weapons etc. got stronger so our variants need to be stronger than them.
Ironstriders and kataphron should imo get 2 and 1 more wound too ( or we have movie marines for the whole of 9th edition)

Quick analysis of Stratoraptors and why I think they're now the superior firebase choice to Disintegrators.

So Stratoraptors have always had solid math. However, people have always preferred Disintegrators. A part of this is model availability. Another is just slots and the ability to use the Disintegrators for WWSWF.

With the new missions, Disintegrators are no longer really great candidates for WWSWF. Not unless you want to give up things like 5x Breachers or 5x Ballistarii. Meanwhile, Archaeopters only give up 1 VP, which is a big deal. Once your army is reduced to less than 12 VP, players stop considering it an auto-take against you. Less than 10 VP, and they won't bother at all.

First up is shooting potential. To make comparing less tedious, I just assumed their expected values and rounded down:

Skorpius Disintegrator
3x 36" S8 AP2 D2
6x 36" S7 AP1 D2 ignore LOS
9x 36" S5

Stratoraptor
2x 48" S10 AP3 D3
6x 36" S7 AP2 ignore cover
6x 36" S5

When we switch to Stratoraptors, we get lascannons, which have higher strength, AP, and range than the missiles, and the math is superior against T5 W3, most tanks, and anything that reduces damage by 1; the heavy phosphor blasters are superior to the the mortar against W1 enemies and anything 3+ or better in cover; fewer Stubber shots, but we all know Stubbers are a tax in 9E. Basically, the Stratoraptor loadout is more specialized, but perhaps more relevant against incoming 9E codex armies.

On the durability front, Stratoraptors have 2 less wounds, but they have -1 to hit, reduce incoming damage by 1, and can only be charged by flyers. Downside is that everyone can shoot at it because it's elevated; LOS is a double-edged sword. So if you take a Stratoraptor, you must adopt a threat saturation and redundancy strategy and bring two.

Stratoraptors clearly have Disintegrators beat for mobility. They can pretty much go anywhere on the map, meaning they can score Engage and enemies cannot really hide from them. With the double pivot, they can easily stay within range of Cawl's 9" aura. They can also body block large chunks of the board from charges with their Knight bases. Not to mention, you can switch them to hover to charge enemies, forcing vehicles to shoot at them instead of more important targets. (Also, the Stratoraptor is WS5, if you want to use those claws.) Rage when it dies for explosive mortals that pretty much hit half their army. Finally, you can always fly off the board and pop up somewhere else to shoot, which is useful in the later turns.

All this for 20 points more.

--

Also, the other thing that was changed was the Servitors packing cheaper Multi-Meltas. If you were unaware, Multi-Meltas got buffed. Profile is now 24" Heavy 2 S8 AP4 DD6, DD6+2 when half-range. The clever strategy is to spend 1 CP to outflank 3x4 Servitors (3*2=6 PR), packing 6 Multi-Meltas, with a Daedalosus (3 PR). They come in, Mars Canticle buffs their guns to S9 and eliminates the move penalty; Daedalosus buffs them to BS4; points at a target to hit on 3s. You can melt a Leman Russ with 3 Servitors. So you pretty much can delete two vehicles and force your opponent to redirect fire at these Servitors.

Only real downside is that this eats 3 Elite slots, so if you are running 2x10 Fulgurites, you would need a Battalion and a Patrol.

The servitors do sound strong, but there are a couple more downsides than eating Elites slots. Outflank is subject to screening much more so than deep-striking. You're also paying what... 265 or so points for a suicide unit that will fold under a few bolters? And while you can split the Servitor's fire, you can't split Daedalosus's buff as well. Still likely to do some damage, but only once, and to things that the opponent sets out to screen their valuables.

bmsattler wrote:
The servitors do sound strong, but there are a couple more downsides than eating Elites slots. Outflank is subject to screening much more so than deep-striking. You're also paying what... 265 or so points for a suicide unit that will fold under a few bolters? And while you can split the Servitor's fire, you can't split Daedalosus's buff as well. Still likely to do some damage, but only once, and to things that the opponent sets out to screen their valuables.

180 points and 55 for the Daedalosus. I did the math, and it's pretty straightforward to make the points back in a single turn. There's not really any competitive army that totally lacks melta targets.

 0XFallen wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@suzuteo

Are the planes enough of a firebase potential. Maybe I’m greedy but I think they should have 4 las shots each. Running the dice they don’t seem that offensive.

What happens if knights were to finally reemerge, could the list take down knights easy enough? Tbh as a knight player that this edition has unceremoniously been kicked into hiding...I can’t see you facing many knight players but you never know lol

Unless we get unique Lascannons or a Las Talon, I doubt we will get 4 lascannon shots from the Stratoraptor

The thing is though, with the weapon rebalancing ours have to be rebalanced too ( except if they just dont bother). Generally and foremost we are the imperial faction with superior tech and lots of specialists, which GW confirmed in a lot of summary texts for our faction, and which is great in relation to the lore. Melta, power weapons etc. got stronger so our variants need to be stronger than them.
Ironstriders and kataphron should imo get 2 and 1 more wound too ( or we have movie marines for the whole of 9th edition)

But why would our Lascannons have more shots than a standard Lascannon? I can see Phosphor weaponary getting an improvement (its only really good on Kastelans and tbh, they should name the weapon different for them and have the Onager and Stratoraptor have a heavier version) and our Cognis weapons getting a change to make them more inline with 9th ed rules, but no way in hell would a Cognis Lascannon just be 2 shots flat.

Kataphrons should be 4 wounds, I agree on that and our Alphas need there second wound back. I think Balistarii and Dragoons are honestly fine how they are, you dont want them to be too expensive and I doubt 2 extra wounds will save them from the damage 2 and Melta spam thats out their now. I think a lot of stuff just needs to revert back to pre 8th ed stats. Plasma Calivers back to Assault 3, Arc weaponary getting Haywire back (Tyranids and Harlies/Deldar Haywire does MWs, ours doesnt), Radium doing extra wounds on 6s instead of extra damage, Galvanic weapons being AP1 instead of the 6 to wound gives an AP. Galvanic used to be AP4 before 8th, the same as Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and other weapons that went from AP4 to AP1. For whatever reason they decided Galvanic weapons shouldnt be AP1, would it be OP? No. Its all these little things that were taken from us we should get back, then we can improve on things like Neutron Lasers, Eradication weapons, Phosphor and Heavy Stubbers.

As a faction that is famed for its superior tech, game wise we dont really have those equipment. Space Marines outclass us in weapon options and lethality, we are just better at shooting natively. We dont have multiple types of Las/Autocannon/Bolt/Melta weaponary. I also dont think improving our melee weapons will do much either, we arent really a melee army with a couple exceptions like Fulgurites. Would you take an Arc Maul on a Alpha if it was Str+3 instead of Str+2? A Taser Goad if it had AP1? The units that carry these melee weapons are just too flimsy. Id love to see Ruststalkers be great in melee, but they will still fold in combat unless they give them sort of mechanic where after they attack they can move out of combat like some units in AoS can do so that they dont just get beaten up by the stragglers that survived.

I think Dragoons need to explode on an unmodified 5 or 6. They got nerfed way too hard.