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Do we know that these are still basic lascannons and not say las-talons or las-fusils? The Assault descriptor also means that they can be fired in melee without penalty unless I'm mistaken.

How are they handling points changes? Are they leaving the field manuals as the sole source for these? It would be nice to know if the serberys units are going up in points, for example.

bmsattler wrote:
Do we know that these are still basic lascannons and not say las-talons or las-fusils? The Assault descriptor also means that they can be fired in melee without penalty unless I'm mistaken.

How are they handling points changes? Are they leaving the field manuals as the sole source for these? It would be nice to know if the serberys units are going up in points, for example.

most things will probably be costed higher.
Those are cognis class weapons from the lascannon

Octovol wrote:
The change to cognis is a nice indicator that someone is actually giving us some thought at least. Not just a rehash or tweak like our last codex.

Just a shame our only other cognis weapons are heavy stubbers lol Although...if they went to Assault 4 each thats our horde supression sorted! lol

Hmm did regular marine autocannons get more shots? Cognis lascannons stayed at 1 each.

Also just ocurred to me that sluphur breath on the hounds is now identical to luiquifier guns that Wracks just got in the new Drukharii codex, except in theory ours still ignore cover.

Suppressors got 3 shot Autocannons, I think the Invictor got a 6 shot twin version. Their Heavy Stubbers are 4 shots too (and AP1)? Predator's Autocannon became 2D3 shots. The difference with Wracks is they can be Dark Techno to improve those Liquifiers further.


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bmsattler wrote:
Do we know that these are still basic lascannons and not say las-talons or las-fusils? The Assault descriptor also means that they can be fired in melee without penalty unless I'm mistaken.

How are they handling points changes? Are they leaving the field manuals as the sole source for these? It would be nice to know if the serberys units are going up in points, for example.

Im assuming this will be the how Lascannons will be from now one, its just that as Cognis they become Assault instead of Heavy which makes sense. The old Cognis was pretty much pseudo Assault but worse. Then with Engine war it made Mars Ballistarii better due to +1 strength to Heavy weapons. A Dark Lance used to trade range and strength for AP4 (and further back in the past counting AV 13+ as 12). Now they have D3+3 damage which is a huge difference to Lascannons and also Bright Lances (ill guess when Craftworlds get done they will get the same D3+3 damage change).

The points will be in the Codex when it comes out and then annual updates in the Chapter Approved Field Manual. My guess is preorder the 17th of April for our Codex, out by the 24th.

Extra attack on the Cognis Heavy Stubber is neato

The Icarus appears to be unchanged, but that's fine cause it was in a good spot before (and it will probably lose it's -1 to hit against non-flying targets, but we gotta wait for that).

The Eradication beamer got a pretty tasty profile bump, but D6 shots still make me not too happy about it, though it might have an ability or strat that lets you reroll the number of shots or something.

The one I was most excited about was the Neutron Laser, which got a slight buff from D6(min3) damage to D3+3, and a strength improvement from 10 to 12. However like the Eradication Beamer, the D3 shots with it still kill the weapon for me.

the Twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster is looking real tasty, though
going from 6 attacks to 8, and D1 to D2 make it a pretty solid choice against marines. Also implies that Kastelan robots are going to 12 shots, S6, -2AP, D2 which is .d.i.s.g.u.s.t.i.n.g.

 Thairne wrote:

Extra attack on the Cognis Heavy Stubber is neato

The Icarus appears to be unchanged, but that's fine cause it was in a good spot before (and it will probably lose it's -1 to hit against non-flying targets, but we gotta wait for that).

The Eradication beamer got a pretty tasty profile bump, but D6 shots still make me not too happy about it, though it might have an ability or strat that lets you reroll the number of shots or something.

The one I was most excited about was the Neutron Laser, which got a slight buff from D6(min3) damage to D3+3, and a strength improvement from 10 to 12. However like the Eradication Beamer, the D3 shots with it still kill the weapon for me.

the Twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster is looking real tasty, though
going from 6 attacks to 8, and D1 to D2 make it a pretty solid choice against marines. Also implies that Kastelan robots are going to 12 shots, S6, -2AP, D2 which is .d.i.s.g.u.s.t.i.n.g.

Iiiiiinteresting. Does look like all our heavy cognis stuff goes to assault, I wonder if cognis flamers will gain Blast or something given they're already assault...Neutron laser change is pretty irrelevant unless it can ignore invulns.

The heavy phosphor change though...if you ask me this all but confirms robot protocols are changing and they no longer double shoot. I'd wager they re-roll 1s in shooting, roll re-roll 1s in melee and if we're lucky aegis will stay the same. probably also means robots are getting more attacks, 4-5 minimum. if they also go to BS3+ that makes me very happy, less piling support on to a single unit to make it useful. Probably also means Robots won't be core as they'd be self-sufficient with their own re-rolls. This is all extrapolation of course. be nice if having a data smith nearby improved their protocols and they can switch in command phase.

Well Neutron Laser got slightly buffed. T6 targets will keel pretty quick since they tend to be around 6W. The extra min 1 dmg is nice, but all in all the Neutron Laser stayed kinda "eh" and didnt really win. Give it heavy 3 and we can talk.

Cognis stubbers tho... 4 shots assault? Run up your boats, still shoot with 16 shots? Thats a nice buff for clearing out hordes.

Eradication beamer seems to be the "close combat option", or rather, close support option. If you want to get the most of it, you have to move up and then its a pretty okish gravis killer. Again, random number of shots is absolutely terrible and swingy, but its the only weapon with 3D and negates almost the entire save of gravis. Thats a specific task you can gear your onagers for and that could help keep the opponent away.

Phosphor got way better - but if Dakkabots get the buff as well, I dont see why I should ever choose this weapon if there's downright a better version of it available and deprive myself of options.

I'm betting they remove double shoots from kastelans but make their guns damage 2. I certainly wouldn't mind it if the datasmith was given an actual job or something to do.

I like the beamer, with neutron lasers frankly not stacking up to lascannon Ballistarii, I think I'm going double Beamer on my dunecrawlers and not being shy about moving them up the board. S8 will occasionally force hard decisions on transhuman against space marine armies, and the extra ap typically translates to the same as the ignores cover on phosphor... assuming of course that's still how phosphor is going to work.

 Thairne wrote:
Well Neutron Laser got slightly buffed. T6 targets will keel pretty quick since they tend to be around 6W. The extra min 1 dmg is nice, but all in all the Neutron Laser stayed kinda "eh" and didnt really win. Give it heavy 3 and we can talk.

Cognis stubbers tho... 4 shots assault? Run up your boats, still shoot with 16 shots? Thats a nice buff for clearing out hordes.

Eradication beamer seems to be the "close combat option", or rather, close support option. If you want to get the most of it, you have to move up and then its a pretty okish gravis killer. Again, random number of shots is absolutely terrible and swingy, but its the only weapon with 3D and negates almost the entire save of gravis. Thats a specific task you can gear your onagers for and that could help keep the opponent away.

Phosphor got way better - but if Dakkabots get the buff as well, I dont see why I should ever choose this weapon if there's downright a better version of it available and deprive myself of options.

My guess is Kastellans get their own variant of Phosphor because lets be real, it looks nothing like the Heavy Phosphor Blasters on the Onager and Stratoraptor. That way their is a distinction between an Onager and a couple of Kastellans. 1 is mass damage 1 shots the other fewer damage 2 shots. The Kastellans are bound to loose double shoot but could be upped to BS3 standard or as a protocol.

Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.

 Thairne wrote:
Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.

Looking through the 9th edition Codexes, fire twice has sort of vanished just like 3++ invulns. Now Eradicators break that trend as they can still fire twice but everything else that had it has lost it or gain a different rule like +1 to hit (Executioner). I wouldnt mind loosing double shoot, if they made Kastellans more interesting in general.

 deffrekka wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.

Looking through the 9th edition Codexes, fire twice has sort of vanished just like 3++ invulns. Now Eradicators break that trend as they can still fire twice but everything else that had it has lost it or gain a different rule like +1 to hit (Executioner). I wouldnt mind loosing double shoot, if they made Kastellans more interesting in general.

There are at least 3 I can think of off the top of my head from the Drukhari codex, Master Archon ability is straight up just, choose to fight twice, once. Strife strat for wyches to fight twice. There'a standard strat to do the same for other units. There werent that many units that could do it as a regular ability anyway were there? what units have lost fight or shoot twice that had it as a natural ability?


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personally i'd like to see robots move to two protocol mode. Durable and punchy or better at shooting. Because that halfway house aegis mode just seems pointless when nobody stays in it.

Or just flat give them a 2+/4++ without any protocol changes. They're already more expensive points and power-wise than most dreadnaughts and not as good.

Octovol wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
Well Kastellan had their protocol since their inception. The thing because people believe they might lose it is the 4 shots base from the Onager. If they keep their Heavy 3 S6 -2 1 there's no reason to change them. I mean they were fine since they existed and in this lethal meta they're tamer than ever.

Looking through the 9th edition Codexes, fire twice has sort of vanished just like 3++ invulns. Now Eradicators break that trend as they can still fire twice but everything else that had it has lost it or gain a different rule like +1 to hit (Executioner). I wouldnt mind loosing double shoot, if they made Kastellans more interesting in general.

There are at least 3 I can think of off the top of my head from the Drukhari codex, Master Archon ability is straight up just, choose to fight twice, once. Strife strat for wyches to fight twice. There'a standard strat to do the same for other units. There werent that many units that could do it as a regular ability anyway were there? what units have lost fight or shoot twice that had it as a natural ability?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
personally i'd like to see robots move to two protocol mode. Durable and punchy or better at shooting. Because that halfway house aegis mode just seems pointless when nobody stays in it.

Or just flat give them a 2+/4++ without any protocol changes. They're already more expensive points and power-wise than most dreadnaughts and not as good.

Fight twice is a lot different from shoot twice and whilst it might be the same in regards to the unit activating twice, one is more powerful than the other. There are loads of fight twice mechanics in 9th, not so much for shoot twice any more. To name a couple a Repulsor Executioner lost shooting its turret twice, Aggressors also lost shooting twice if they stood still. Whilst combat might be easier to reach for some armies (like Dark Eldar), its generally easier to have those units that shoot again become oppressive, especially when you add in rerolls, synergies and little risk. Wyches mostly kill what they target now, fighting twice isnt really needed on them, Master Archons arent all that great in combat, sure with a Djinn Blade he is damage 3, but hes also Str 4, not exactly a world breaker.

Fight twice through out 9th edition Codexes have become more focused in who gets to do it instead of generalising it for the whole army but shooting twice has been more likely to be removed unless your Eradicators. One is oppressive the other not so much.

I'd really love them if they made them more durable, punchy bots more punchy, and shooty bois less shooty. I love the robots and have to either take only 2 or just leave them out of my lists because I don't want my friends to have any feels badsies. Though with my one friend who plays ultramarines and death guard kind of deserves it because I seriously struggle otherwise.

Pteraxii Skystalkers flechette carbine reduced range by 6" Why? No one was using them anyway how does that differentiate them from Infiltrators now? I dont get it, supposed to be increasing effectiveness and yet both Pteraxii stayed the same or got worse...

have to wait for abilities but it's gonna take Sterylizors getting the no-fallback talons ability for free and Skystalkers are really gonna need something more than those grenades to make them usable. Unless the grenades are as awesome as the voidbombers that is lol

Octovol wrote:
Pteraxii Skystalkers flechette carbine reduced range by 6" Why? No one was using them anyway how does that differentiate them from Infiltrators now? I dont get it, supposed to be increasing effectiveness and yet both Pteraxii stayed the same or got worse...

have to wait for abilities but it's gonna take Sterylizors getting the no-fallback talons ability for free and Skystalkers are really gonna need something more than those grenades to make them usable. Unless the grenades are as awesome as the voidbombers that is lol

Maybe theyll get the reroll wound rolls back but I doubt it

 0XFallen wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Pteraxii Skystalkers flechette carbine reduced range by 6" Why? No one was using them anyway how does that differentiate them from Infiltrators now? I dont get it, supposed to be increasing effectiveness and yet both Pteraxii stayed the same or got worse...

have to wait for abilities but it's gonna take Sterylizors getting the no-fallback talons ability for free and Skystalkers are really gonna need something more than those grenades to make them usable. Unless the grenades are as awesome as the voidbombers that is lol

Maybe theyll get the reroll wound rolls back but I doubt it

As they're staying S3 I also doubt flechette is getting reroll wounds back.

What's the general thought on the current power-level of Dunecrawlers kited with Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays?

They seem pretty good on paper, and have performed really well for me in casual games, but I see pretty wide-spread ratings of them across various army rundowns, and never seem to see crab tanks in competitive lists.

Are the more buff-centric Ironstriders/Breachers/Kastellens really that much more lethal in shooting that Dunecrawlers are left in the dust?

We don't know enough yet about the new changes to say going forward.

Previously? Yeah, Icarus Array and Neutron Lasers just miss out on being useful. Ironstriders and Kastellens deal with everything else more efficiently.

I ran the math earlier in this thread. Fully buffed (Cawl, Mars, strats, Warlord traits), two Lascannon Ironstriders at 150 points deal 10.3 wounds to T7 3+. A Ferrumite Skorpius deals 9.6. A Neutron Laser Dunestrider deals 4.7 with full buffs, though most don't help. If you adjust for the point difference, a 155pt Dunecrawler would deal 5.8 damage. Icarus Arrays are worse than that, though not by much since more buffs apply. That's why the Array is better, since you're already buffing it to keep pace with the Neutron Laser, but you're also superior against any other targets. Of course, Kastellans are stronger still against non-vehicles than the Icarus Array.

The fewer buffs you have, the more competitive Dunecrawlers become. The problem with the current codex is that buffs can double the efficiency of some units. The rest of the book has to be balanced around that efficacy, which pigeon-holes you into playing those buffs to keep up.

Low rate of fire shots is always swingy. Neutron Lasers can and often do completely obliterate something, but can also very easily whiff and since the vehicle really has nothing else but that one gun it feels totally wasted if it whiffs (or pings off invuls)
Theyre not bad but usually theyre a list filler not a main focus. They are cheap after all.

I think Icarus Arrays fell off favor in 9th, forget why but i never hear people talk about them.

I guess with the hit cap, flyers didnt really pose that much of a challenge for regular guns so that the advantage of the Icarus was outweight by the disadvantage of having that debuff when not shooting flyers. Taking dedicated AA was a net negative and therefore fell off...?

Makes sense.
It will probably change as other AA guns have to not mention that but only offer the +1 to hit against Aircraft rather than Fly. Wonder if we see it become favored again if that happens (since we know the stats atm but as with all of those in-box datasheet leaks they dont ever show special rules)

Look you, leave my +1 against Fly alone!

 DarkHound wrote:
We don't know enough yet about the new changes to say going forward.

Previously? Yeah, Icarus Array and Neutron Lasers just miss out on being useful. Ironstriders and Kastellens deal with everything else more efficiently.

I ran the math earlier in this thread. Fully buffed (Cawl, Mars, strats, Warlord traits), two Lascannon Ironstriders at 150 points deal 10.3 wounds to T7 3+. A Ferrumite Skorpius deals 9.6. A Neutron Laser Dunestrider deals 4.7 with full buffs, though most don't help. If you adjust for the point difference, a 155pt Dunecrawler would deal 5.8 damage. Icarus Arrays are worse than that, though not by much since more buffs apply. That's why the Array is better, since you're already buffing it to keep pace with the Neutron Laser, but you're also superior against any other targets. Of course, Kastellans are stronger still against non-vehicles than the Icarus Array.

The fewer buffs you have, the more competitive Dunecrawlers become. The problem with the current codex is that buffs can double the efficiency of some units. The rest of the book has to be balanced around that efficacy, which pigeon-holes you into playing those buffs to keep up.

This makes a lot of sense and echoes what I was beginning to understand in quick, simple, easy to understand terms with crisp math-hammer to back it up.

My anecdotal success must be based on me and my buddy not running optimized lists (and, admittedly, a string of likely very hot dice on a pair of Neutron Lasers).

Thanks!

I think the biggest benefit to the Icarus Array is the fact we have a strat that gives +2 to hit for a Skitarii unit, taking it from -1 to hit a non-flyer to +1 to hit. Assuming we lose the +2 bonus, Icarus Array loses a lot of efficiency.

The biggest benefit to the Icarus Array is that it's a heck of a lot of weapons as a 'package'.

Well, the Array is only one weapon so you can't split its fire to maximize each gun. The stats of each profile tend to result in the same average damage per gun against most targets, though the gattling rocket launcher usually lags a bit behind. It is very consistent through volume of fire though.

The biggest benefit is just how many ways it can be buffed. Mars +1, +2 stratagem, re-rolls, additional AP are all substantial improvements, and can surpass the Neutron laser against vehicles in many cases.

The previews begin!

Some nice changes to the weapons for our troops, I think the look to be mostly an upgrade of course depending on the unit rules

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/04/13/praise-the-omnissiah-adeptus-mechanicus-guns-are-deadlier-than-ever/

Huge boost to Arc rifles there, holy cow. I also appreciate the cognis flamer change.

Do we still like Arc Rifles on Rangers? Obviously the bump to 30" lets us use them as a bit of extra anti-vehicle leverage while they objective sit, but flat 3 damage and 4+ to wound against vehicles makes me really want to have them in rapid fire range which vanguard are better suited for.

Its better than I'd hoped for, certainly. Their now good enough to actually want to take.

Guess I'm going to be modeling a few when I get my next skitarii box