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I agree. Dragoons are hot garbage now

@Suzuteo have you had any tabletop simulator games using mars transports loaded with stick priests?

I know the current hot trend is to throw them forward with clandestine infiltration either as pure stygies or hipster mixed lists.

I just wondered how tricky it was moving them slowly up the board.

I havent tried yet. Kinda wondered if mars lists can get away with being mostly shooty still and forgo the priests

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@Suzuteo have you had any tabletop simulator games using mars transports loaded with stick priests?

I know the current hot trend is to throw them forward with clandestine infiltration either as pure stygies or hipster mixed lists.

I just wondered how tricky it was moving them slowly up the board.

I havent tried yet. Kinda wondered if mars lists can get away with being mostly shooty still and forgo the priests

I have played live games with them in a Mixed list.

It's not too bad. In fact, you don't even need to infiltrate them most of time as long as you have Raiders. They basically make it so that it is impossible for your opponent to get the first charge off. The only time you do want to infiltrate them is when you are going second against a particularly slow list. But whether or not it is worth losing access to double Canticles is a big question mark.

On that note, Mars cannot be a mostly shooting army. It really throws away the primary draw of Mars, which is excellent versatility and the ability to access higher strength values army wide. Consistently being able to use that second Canticles is worth 2 CP every turn. Armywide cover in the open, +1S to Heavy and no infantry move penalty, +1S to melee, and reroll melee are all immensely valuable. You must aim to take full advantage of both melee and shooting.

That’s fair advice. I just wish we had big points drops as Cawl is so good but at 200 points he is expensive. I’m greedy but would love some points drops across the board to help me squeeze everything in lol

 Ideasweasel wrote:
That’s fair advice. I just wish we had big points drops as Cawl is so good but at 200 points he is expensive. I’m greedy but would love some points drops across the board to help me squeeze everything in lol

200 points is a bargain for what he gives us. Again, think of an extra Canticle as being worth 2 CP per turn.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I think Dragoons need to explode on an unmodified 5 or 6. They got nerfed way too hard.

Id like to see Dragoons get an extra attack and to have their incense be active all the time in shooting and melee instead of having to pay a CP for it to work in melee. I have literally no clue what they will do to the Jezzail, no one has ever taken it ever in the history of Skitarii being an army. It feels more like a weapon the Ballistarii would use but even then thats underwhelming too. Another change would to also have the Phosphor Serpenta be free instead of being a 2pt upgrade youd only take when you have a handful of pts left over at the end of list building. They could also give it an advance and charge mechanic built into it so that feels more unique to the Ballistarii. Exploding 5s I dont think will happen, I havent seen any Tesla style weapon in 9th gone that way, have them at 4 attacks or even 5 on the charge with advance and charge too and just a flat -1 to hit always. They wont be as great as their golden 4+ exploding Tesla days but its a step towards something good.


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 Ideasweasel wrote:
That’s fair advice. I just wish we had big points drops as Cawl is so good but at 200 points he is expensive. I’m greedy but would love some points drops across the board to help me squeeze everything in lol

I think Cawl is probably worth 180-190pts as it is now in the current state of the game. He is great but over time he as deminished in the wider world of characters. He will probably see some changes come our codex, maybe he will finally find a Conversion Field in his pile of junk But 200pts now is fine for what he does for us currently. However he is very much an 8th edition character with his rules, profile and wargear. Its a testament to how well we have aged over the years that we can still be viable in the meta, we just have a few core issues from our old codex, something I doubt the campaign book would fix.

I agree with you that Id love some pts drops, we kinda got kicked pretty hard when our 9th ed pts came out, more so than other armies did except like Dark Eldar haha. We still have the eternal struggle of Ruststalkers and Infiltrators just being borderline bad, though they can be great when used well. Then with Skystalkers and Sterylizors added to the Sicarian mix we have a whole mess of kind of expensive and not that impactful "elite" flimsy infantry that all fight for the same role.

How viable are kataphrons (both flavours) right now? Thinking of making an elite army with them as the bulk of my troop choices.

*edit: meant to say kataphron servitors

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I agree. Dragoons are hot garbage now

I would disagree with this, the Dragoons aren't great right now but they're not unplayable. I think the biggest issue is with all of the changes they compete with Fulgurites a bit too much as they can no longer provide the extreme explosive alpha strikes as we've seen in the past. I can imagine that as the meta evolves someone will find some use for Dragoons that we're not expecting, as we recently saw Melta-Servitors see action, which I didn't expect.

operkoi wrote:
How viable are kataphrons (both flavours) right now? Thinking of making an elite army with them as the bulk of my troop choices.

*edit: meant to say kataphron servitors

If you're looking at Breachers, they're rather good and can build in a ton of different directions. The Destroyers on the other hand are ok but have so far failed to show up in high ranking tournament finishes.

If you're interested, check out my video looking at Kataphron lists as I try to show a good mix of cool lists that have done well within tournaments. The previous video about overall 2,000 point lists includes another variation of Kataphrons, but it's more focused on non-Kataphron lists:

 Techpriest_ wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I agree. Dragoons are hot garbage now

I would disagree with this, the Dragoons aren't great right now but they're not unplayable. I think the biggest issue is with all of the changes they compete with Fulgurites a bit too much as they can no longer provide the extreme explosive alpha strikes as we've seen in the past. I can imagine that as the meta evolves someone will find some use for Dragoons that we're not expecting, as we recently saw Melta-Servitors see action, which I didn't expect.

operkoi wrote:
How viable are kataphrons (both flavours) right now? Thinking of making an elite army with them as the bulk of my troop choices.

*edit: meant to say kataphron servitors

If you're looking at Breachers, they're rather good and can build in a ton of different directions. The Destroyers on the other hand are ok but have so far failed to show up in high ranking tournament finishes.

If you're interested, check out my video looking at Kataphron lists as I try to show a good mix of cool lists that have done well within tournaments. The previous video about overall 2,000 point lists includes another variation of Kataphrons, but it's more focused on non-Kataphron lists:

I tend to have the same opinion with them. I think they are just a little out dated and need some love to bring them inline with 9th edition. The Lances are fine, its more of the platform, they could do with an extra attack and some more defense, be it a -1 to hit in melee in addition to shooting that isnt tied to CP. Fulgurites are bound to get changed when we get a new codex, I very much doubt they will get access to a 2++ anymore and I have a strong feeling that their 3++ will go to a 4++. They could have some buffs too but I think they wont be the same unit as they are now. As Admech we have quite a few melee specialists in the army but they all kind of step on each others toes a little bit. Ruststalkers, Infiltrators, Sterylizors, Dragoons, Kastelans with fists and Fulgurites. The first 3 are very close to each other in what they do, 1 is cheap with a chance of MWs, another has a greater volume of attacks any a (crap) debuff aura and the last has superior mobility, ok flamers and ok melee. However none are melee super stars. Dragoons had a niche, and that was they were actually alright at tackling MEQ and light vehicles in melee but thats dropped off now due to Taser becoming unmodified 6s. Kastelans have always had a weird thing going with fists. With Conqueror Protocol them look pretty threatening but damn do they give up a lot for it. 115pts is pushing a Dreadnought/Deffdread cost and they have only just more attacks but arent as durable or as accurate. Yeah they can be in a big squad with Prime Hermeticon rerolls but thats a lot of pts for not really that much impact.

Then there is Fulgurites. Relatively well priced, MW generation like Ruststalkers, durable, pretty good melee weapons outside of MWs, can be pretty quick when used with transports and they arent really in a competitive force org slot with them being Elites. The only things that make me not use them is 1.) they arent Skitarii and 2.) their models are ugly as hell in my eyes.

 deffrekka wrote:
another has a greater volume of attacks any a (crap) debuff aura

How the hell did I miss that for so long?! I mostly play against marines and the new way moral works they're a lot more vunerble to moral, this is making me think they have a bit of extra value I didn't realise.

 laam999 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
another has a greater volume of attacks any a (crap) debuff aura

How the hell did I miss that for so long?! I mostly play against marines and the new way moral works they're a lot more vunerble to moral, this is making me think they have a bit of extra value I didn't realise.

Probably because they didnt live long enough to use it or when you could use it nothing would happen anyway. Morale isnt that big in 9th ed, it used to be this prior to 8th "All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Initiative and Leadership." Not only did the aura drop 3" but it lost all the best parts! Also, before this 9th ed codex for Marines, they could reroll their Morale anyway so it wasnt that huge. I used Infiltrators quite aggressively throughout last edition (I liked Stubcarbines and Power Swords as hunter killer units, I played as Stygies for the most part so no Wrath of Mars) and Im pretty certain the -1 Leadership did nothing the entire time I used them, especially in situations where they actually survived a combat and beat the opponent pretty soundly.

A -1 to hit aura would be fine on them or have them effect attrition so when the enemy do fail Morale its more inpactful.

2++ on fulgrites I could see them changing but capping out at 4++?

I hope our codex isn’t just a series of nerfs. That would corrupt my cogitators

We are only survivable on the strength of a handful of units and some engine war buffs. If they gut what’s good that could be rough.

My biggest hope is whoever wrote the OG section on relics and warlord traits was soundly thrashed and made an example of in the GW dungeon. Codex 2.0 having fun and flavourful traits to pick needs to happen

I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now

 0XFallen wrote:
I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now

We used to be the toys over boys army. Then WarCon came around, and it was toys WITH boys.

I would love for relics to be ridiculously good again. Improve the profiles of Dominus (+1 attack) and Manipulus (+1 WS, wound, attack) and give us better WLTs and stratagems so that it would justify shelling out for lots of relics on 3x Dominii and/or Manipulii.

 0XFallen wrote:
I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now

If you've been keeping up with the Death Guard Codex; That's the kind of codex I want, there's so much flavour and thought gone into that codex, at least on the surface. Could be more hidden nerfs yet like with Necrons lol

I too also decided on Admech because of how interesting their rules and units were, I don't want an army anyone can pick up and faceroll to victory like Marines. I want quirky interesting ways to play that might not always work but when they do they're devastating.

Admech are pretty blessed right now. We've legit got 4 sub par units, 2 mediocre units and the rest range from good to great. There are literally 3+ play styles for the army and sub groups of those styles are insanely diverse. I only expect the horses to get nerfed and possible breachers nerfed thru changes (i.e. 6+ exploding shots). Overall Admech are in a weird spot. They are an army that isn't blowing up tables but is expensive. So that means GW generally leaves it alone. Not realizing that the admech cost is why they haven't really been an army of the month.

I generally consider admech a top 3 codex and depending on how you rate it it could be anywhere from 1-3. I'm happy with what we have but given how much better every army has gotten with their 9th ed codex I have high hopes for ours.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Admech are pretty blessed right now. We've legit got 4 sub par units, 2 mediocre units and the rest range from good to great. There are literally 3+ play styles for the army and sub groups of those styles are insanely diverse. I only expect the horses to get nerfed and possible breachers nerfed thru changes (i.e. 6+ exploding shots). Overall Admech are in a weird spot. They are an army that isn't blowing up tables but is expensive. So that means GW generally leaves it alone. Not realizing that the admech cost is why they haven't really been an army of the month.

I generally consider admech a top 3 codex and depending on how you rate it it could be anywhere from 1-3. I'm happy with what we have but given how much better every army has gotten with their 9th ed codex I have high hopes for ours.

I mean, yes we are A tier right now, just below marines. I dont really care too much if our army is good or not in that sense ( as long as its not too high or low). Id agree though that I hope our codex will have a lot of flavor and thought put into it. Fluff, quirky, a feeling of superior and weird tech.

Looking like mixed detachments are on their way out. DG codex has the same rules for battleforged detachments marines and necrons have, no more than one chapter/fw/dynasty/plague company per detachment.

Pre codex what are we thinking is stronger just now

Mars or Stygies?

Or why not take detachment of both

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Pre codex what are we thinking is stronger just now

Mars or Stygies?

Or why not take detachment of both

If I had to rank them in terms of pure competitiveness:

Tier 1
Data-hoard + Stygies
Mixed

Tier 2
Pure Mars
Pure Stygies

Tier 3
Data-hoard + Mars
Pure Lucius

That said, play what you are most familiar with.

Data horde + stygies. Interesting.

I’m guessing Stygies for a couple of duneriders filled with staff priests.

What are you taking in the data horde detachment? Breacher spam?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
2++ on fulgrites I could see them changing but capping out at 4++?

I hope our codex isn’t just a series of nerfs. That would corrupt my cogitators

We are only survivable on the strength of a handful of units and some engine war buffs. If they gut what’s good that could be rough.

My biggest hope is whoever wrote the OG section on relics and warlord traits was soundly thrashed and made an example of in the GW dungeon. Codex 2.0 having fun and flavourful traits to pick needs to happen

How many units have a 3++ save in 9th edition though? There has been a pretty big culling of 3++ invuns down to a 4++ (and a splash of added bonuses like +1 armour save). From the top of my head all I can think of is Vicatrix Guard who kept their 3++, Harlies with access to their stratagem that adds +1, ourselves with Fulgurites, Magnus with a psychic power. Its becoming increasingly rare and we are seeing more limitations on modifiers too for example Sisters being capped at a 4++ and Lucius' Canticle having the same 4++ cap. That doesnt mean they cant buff Electro-Priests in some other way, like making them 2 wounds each (like seriously they are beefy boys, larger than most 1 wound infantry in the game) and just a 4++ base instead of having to siphon it first.

Looking at the Deathguard Codex Im really hoping for that level of care and power. They had a revamp. Whilst the units might have the same role, the army feels different. Granted we will probably see the same stuff where are Skitarii's loadout is now fixed just like Plague Marines and Blightlords though I hope thats not the case, ive been through enough with my Orks loosing things throughout the editions.

Canticles should be vastly improved, we should have some type of rule that makes us crazy around objectives, they could very well make Acquisition at all Costs just a base rule, it wouldnt be overpowered. Looking at Deathguard, they are swimming in army rules where as we have 2, Canticles and Obsec on troops. Our Warlord Traits I can see becoming fairly unique too, Space Wolves have their Sagas, Deathguard have theirs that can effect Contagions and I believe they were testing the waters with Holy Orders for us. Having a series of Warlord Traits that are adaptable would be pretty unique to us as they are already from Engine War. I really reaaaaalllly want worth while and flavourful relics. Im fed up of just taking the Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land or the Solar Flare. We have 6 melee relics, 2 ranged relics and they are all kinda bad or not worthwhile on our characters because they just arent combat characters.

Honestly give us a Deathguard/Necron style codex and ill be happy, I dont care about being Marine level of silliness.


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 0XFallen wrote:
I hope we get someone that loves Admech and knows its essence writing our codex. I started playing warhammer in general because of admech in 7th. They had quirky rules, expensive but dangerous units that were just gutted to be guard 2.0 in 8th. In 9th we lost even more unique stuff vehicle wise ( invulns and the ignore penaltys part). I think we need a whole redo, mostly in the elite direction, even before GW decided to upscale everything a bit since marines got 2 wounds and a lot of guns got buffed. Currently we dont feel like we got the best tech in the imperium. Technology is our strength, yet even Cawl himself only has a measily 5++ and standard omnissian axe, even the solar atomiser is worse than a MM right now

I fully agree, id like to see use return to our pre 8th edition days, we had the best plasma, the best anti tank, great anti infantry firepower and a powerful first turn with our movement benefits (if you were Skitarii, this is the way ), now we have transports but id like to see that mobility come back. But like you said we feel like Guard/Scions with a bit of flair now. We lost some pretty key things that defined us. Stasis/Conversion fields went poof, we lost Scout, Relentless and Crusader then on top of that our Onager is now just a worst Leman Russ. Every vehicle ignores the heavy penalty and most heavy battle tanks have some extra rule where as the Onager doesnt, Fire Prisms, Gunwagons, Leman Russes. These all fire their turret weapons twice, the Repulsor Execution lost that but gained a +1 to hit with it. What is unique about the Onager? an Invun? Not exactly fair when the other tanks have either more wounds or toughness. Then why doesnt our Skorpius and Archaeoptors have atleast a 6++? Just breaks the pattern haha.

Tech-Priests should be beasts in their field of expertise. A Dominus is all about war and battle, but he isnt great at combat or shooting. A Manipulus is about the motive force, but he can only effect our units when everything has the motive force so he should have some options to debuff enemy units too. I could go on but the jist of it is they should go crazy with flavour and uniqueness. Just look at Deathguard, they are a completely different army than their 8th ed counterpart.

Hallo Tech Priests.

Not sure how many of you have been gaming recently. My games seem to just be on tabletop simulator just now, which is a shame. I've been doing the alpha league - a mini tournament league of sorts and made it to the play off's with mars. (watch me lose my next game)

So far bombers and raiders have been the MVP's in the last 6 games. either unit pretty much single handedly winning it for me.

Dark angels, Slaanesh, Eldar, Chaos Knights, Tyranids, Iron hands for reference

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Pre codex what are we thinking is stronger just now

Mars or Stygies?

Or why not take detachment of both

If I had to rank them in terms of pure competitiveness:

Tier 1
Data-hoard + Stygies
Mixed

Tier 2
Pure Mars
Pure Stygies

Tier 3
Data-hoard + Mars
Pure Lucius

That said, play what you are most familiar with.

Pre-codex I'd say data-horde + Mixed (Lucius & Mars)

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Hallo Tech Priests.

Not sure how many of you have been gaming recently. My games seem to just be on tabletop simulator just now, which is a shame. I've been doing the alpha league - a mini tournament league of sorts and made it to the play off's with mars. (watch me lose my next game)

So far bombers and raiders have been the MVP's in the last 6 games. either unit pretty much single handedly winning it for me.

Dark angels, Slaanesh, Eldar, Chaos Knights, Tyranids, Iron hands for reference

Yeah. If I had to go to a tourney tomorrow, I would bring the most recent iteration of my Pure Mars list. It basically drops Disintegrators to deny Bring It Down, and it replaces them with Grav Destroyers and double Fusilaves.


Note that Fulgurites in Boats are still our primary win condition though. They kill all sorts of infantry because of the sheer number of mortals they output. They also are really hard to remove with the Acquisition save. And Ballistarii are our kills-everything option. Even Mortarion goes down in two turns of Wrath+Pattern Ballistarii. That said, I probably will need to change over to Lascannons or something... maybe Chicken Meme list actually will be a thing??

I've just been trying tothink about what units compare to dragoons...like what other army has a unit like that? Singing spears? Custodes? We dont use it at the moment because we relied on volume of attacks rather than quality of attacks that they dont have any more.

So what would make dragoons good again? What would we want them to do? For me i want a unit like raiders but are actually a force in combat.

Maybe -2 or -3 ap 2dm but 3-4dm on a charge or something give them some impact. At the moment they're weak to counter combat but dont have the impact to do what they need to when they charge.

Giving them ap-2, D3 and damage spilling over on the charge could be cool. They are also really squishy. Compare it to a sentinel, or the new primaris bikes ( which imo should just have less wounds attacks, speed the list goes on), where was I going? Oh yeah, dragoons are pretty big so why do they only have 6 wounds? I get that they are spindly, but they dont have increased movement for losing on armor, wounds, toughness. 10" is average I believe regarding vehicles.

 0XFallen wrote:
Giving them ap-2, D3 and damage spilling over on the charge could be cool. They are also really squishy. Compare it to a sentinel, or the new primaris bikes ( which imo should just have less wounds attacks, speed the list goes on), where was I going? Oh yeah, dragoons are pretty big so why do they only have 6 wounds? I get that they are spindly, but they dont have increased movement for losing on armor, wounds, toughness. 10" is average I believe regarding vehicles.

I'm ok with their toughness if when they get to actually charge they obliterate whatever they hit. Like Khorne Berzerkers, for example, they are pretty easy to dispatch, but you let them get in your face and you're in for a world of hurt. It also amuses me that the literal definition of a dragoon is mounted cavalry yet they are vehicles.

What I think would be a cool and dynamic ability would be that they never actually end up IN combat. A constantly moving hit & run unit that charges as if it can fly. For example, they behave like any other ground-based unit, but when they charge whatever charge roll they make is doubled, but all models in the unit have to pass over and be able to move all the way through the unit they selected for the charge to be positioned on the other side outside of engagement range. Like a lance should be used, you don't stay in combat with a lance, ever.

It would allow them to remain as light vehicle's that are hard to hit, but still allow them to engage a target with their lances without them just getting destroyed to counter-melee, which is what happens now. It also gives them a powerful tool for breaking through screening units.

That is actually a very cool idea!

Hey friends, how do AdMech stack up vs the new DG codex? I’m fighting my friend tomorrow (I’m AdMech, he’s DG) and I’m curious if it’s an okay matchup for friendly games?