I am not sure why anyone would spam Dreads when there are so many better Marine options these days.
Fluff, actually. Iron Hands fluff was that they were a Dreadnought heavy faction. They had so much augmentation that they'd likely survive incapacitating damage, and then entombment into a machine body was an aspiration rather than a last resort.
To your point about outplaying such lists on objectives, I've often found there's a certain point where you can abandon fighting their anti-tank and essentially sacrifice your vehicles to kill their scoring units. Most tanks/anti-tank are terrible at scoring or attacking scorers, which eventually makes them a liability.
We can actually see this in the latest tournament result from the Your Hobby Place GT. The Goff Horde didn't really have dedicated anti-tank, just 2x3 MANz in trukks, Ghazz, and a Mega Big Mek; they're incidentally strong enough to mulch tanks, but not exclusively. Likewise, the 3rd and 4th Chaos lists had 2 Plague Burst Crawlers each, and a couple monstrous creatures, but otherwise no anti-tank.
He’s actually not a cutting edge meta chaser like I am haha
He just picked a theme cause he liked it and has had good success so far. He’s not been back into 40k long but he’s a better player than i so doing something right
Ah. Yeah. Nobody who understands how 9E works is planning on fighting tank battles. They're figuring out how to clear 400 points of Tactical and Gravis Armour on turn one.
@Vineheart01
I just mentioned that in my response to Octovol. Not sure if Raiders will change much. The Robodogs are much more flavorful IMO, but both seem meh to me in comparison to Boat Priests.
@Ideasweasel
It's true that when you play with Dakkabots, you need to be very cognizant of sight lines. But the problem with the Grators is that they cost 150 points and no longer punch hard enough to justify their
So a single.unit of Boatpriests can net you 13 Sulphurhounds or 15 Raider. That's quite a bit to chew through even at T3 3W. 20 wounds at vehicle profile versus 39 at the nice 3W sweet spot. Not saying better or worse but not a clear cut choice as you make it seem.
I have had fantastic experience running 12-18 dogs. They can get to an objective and punch people off of it because of their firepower. I play a lot of Marines because my local meta is always what is obviously powerful (Indomitus Marine stuff) and they kill Intercessors, chip wounds off Impulsors, dart in to kill key characters, and if my Skystalkers are dead they are an alright target for Wrath of Mars as their mobility allows me to place those mortals exactly where I need them.
I always see people complain about how "this unit gets blown off the board turn one!!1!1!!" The rule of Warhammer has always been, if you want one, bring two, if you want two, bring three.
Also my exact opposite expierence about the Grators. Ive played about 9 games with them and while they are expensive for their survivability Grators still hit very hard, especially considering they are only 25pts more than a single Kastelan, all that needs to be done is to give them the premium obscuring terrain piece in your deployment zone. A lot of lists you're going to see and that we are seeing are running Indomitus marines, two of the most egregious are 3W models. This makes the Grator with the Ferrumite a very solid choice. The Belloros is nice but I find the -1AP just lacks the punch to get through Marine armor. And let's not kid ourselves, we should be designing our lists to kill Marines, Harlequins, Custodes, and Death Guard.
Had my first game of V9 today, so long after release ! Was a friendly 1000 pts game against T'au, it was both our first time playing 9th and his first time playing T'au. I played what I had fully painted 'cause it's my resolution for this edition, so didn't optimise the list. It was:
- 3 Sulphurhounds with Carbine
- 5 Infiltrators with Swords
- Onager with Icarus
- 3 Kastelans Robots with Fists and Flamers
All in Lucius. Got to say the +1 invulnerable save canticle is awesome. Popped it turn 1 because he got first turn and it made my Onager 4++ and helped him tank most shots going his way, turn 1 and turn 3. Also repaired a lot in three turns too. The dogma wasn't really useful because he didn't have a lot of AP-1 but it's nice to have.
Two Robots died T1 against 3 Crisis with overcharged Ion guns so that hurt, but the last one managed to lock a unit for a turn and kill some guys, I made him explode too. He returned 3 MWs on a single volley from the 10 Breachers shooting at him that was nice.
The Sulphurhounds got a charge turn 1 but failed to kill the unit of 5 FW on the charge (they shot at something else before) but eventually claimed the objective and killed them later so that was good. Not sure if Raiders would've been as lethal against T3. I like having speed in AdMech it's refreshing.
I won because he conceded T3 as I killed most of his army and was good on points. Still have to learn how to pick the right secondaries though, Erosion is useless and I would've scored Kill the Warlord only on T4.
@Goldenemperor
IMO that sort of efficiency argument is the biggest trap in 9E. Yes, Raiders are efficient and difficult for many codexes to deal with. But they cannot compete with Marines, Harlequins, Custodes, or Death Guard in a big midboard scrum. (They are good for staying out of melee, but not slugging it out in melee.) In a competitive setting, we pretty much need to specialize in shooting options that allow us to kill the best elite infantry in the meta from outside their threat radius. Especially if we go second. In my experience, Raiders aren't it. It's the Elimination Volley combo of 4-5x Dakkabots and 4-5x Grav Destroyers that can do this.
100% agree that the durability argument is dumb. Bring redundancy instead.
Grators do not hit nearly as hard as a Dakkabot against the key targets while costing 20% more. And yeah, Ferrumite is underrated, but I still prefer high volume high AP or high volume mortal wounds. D2 Autocannons also become more relevant against W2 Marines, Nurglings, etc.
Obscuring terrain is a false promise. There is not enough of it in the recommended guidelines.
Suzuteo wrote: @Goldenemperor
IMO that sort of efficiency argument is the biggest trap in 9E. Yes, Raiders are efficient and difficult for many codexes to deal with. But they cannot compete with Marines, Harlequins, Custodes, or Death Guard in a big midboard scrum. (They are good for staying out of melee, but not slugging it out in melee.) In a competitive setting, we pretty much need to specialize in shooting options that allow us to kill the best elite infantry in the meta from outside their threat radius. Especially if we go second. In my experience, Raiders aren't it. It's the Elimination Volley combo of 4-5x Dakkabots and 4-5x Grav Destroyers that can do this.
100% agree that the durability argument is dumb. Bring redundancy instead.
Grators do not hit nearly as hard as a Dakkabot against the key targets while costing 20% more. And yeah, Ferrumite is underrated, but I still prefer high volume high AP or high volume mortal wounds. D2 Autocannons also become more relevant against W2 Marines, Nurglings, etc.
Obscuring terrain is a false promise. There is not enough of it in the recommended guidelines.
I'm sort of coming round to a lot of this, my biggest problem is this advice only exclusively works at 2k points. Even 1500 is not enough for us to have all the tools we need to deal with marines. So picking and choosing what I can fit in my 1000-1500 im finding extremely challenging. I've resolved that 2 x 5 Raiders is the most I'll likely ever need, they're almost sacrificial lambs that conditionally race to objectives, just so my oppoent does have free ranged to just drop on them or move onto them without a challenge. they're cheap, fast and flexibile. I dont have to move them up straight away, but the option is there.
I'm kinda hoping there's an update to Autocannons in the marine codex. I'm excited for a change to Lascannons, but I havea feeling it'll include an uprate in points as well. It's almost a shame that most of our weapons are specifically named and not generic imperium weapons as we're going to benefit not a lot from the global updates. 12" cognis flamer would be nice though.
I'll have to try running dakkabots again, but i'm sort of limited to 2 or 3 of them at most in that points bracket. I just cant rationalise in my head how 9-18 ap-2 1d shots cuts any kind of mustard for the 125pt price tag. it seems like loads. I'd likely have to make my balistarii lascannons instead of autocannons to cover my bases. 2-3 las ballistarii and 2-3 dakkabots would be my entire firebase. Everything else needs to be scoring points. 2k almost feels like cheating, you really dont have to consider your options too much with that amount of points available.
Suzuteo wrote: @Goldenemperor
IMO that sort of efficiency argument is the biggest trap in 9E. Yes, Raiders are efficient and difficult for many codexes to deal with. But they cannot compete with Marines, Harlequins, Custodes, or Death Guard in a big midboard scrum. (They are good for staying out of melee, but not slugging it out in melee.) In a competitive setting, we pretty much need to specialize in shooting options that allow us to kill the best elite infantry in the meta from outside their threat radius. Especially if we go second. In my experience, Raiders aren't it. It's the Elimination Volley combo of 4-5x Dakkabots and 4-5x Grav Destroyers that can do this.
100% agree that the durability argument is dumb. Bring redundancy instead.
Grators do not hit nearly as hard as a Dakkabot against the key targets while costing 20% more. And yeah, Ferrumite is underrated, but I still prefer high volume high AP or high volume mortal wounds. D2 Autocannons also become more relevant against W2 Marines, Nurglings, etc.
Obscuring terrain is a false promise. There is not enough of it in the recommended guidelines.
Completely disagree having tournamented last weekend your horses are not meant to win the scrum they are meant to block your opponent in their deployment zone so you can grab the middle.
@U02dah4
While that makes some sense, you would only need one unit of them for that use case; they need to block just long enough for better melee units to arrive.
Bringing more seems to be a risky plan that is easily foiled if they bring anything with Scout deployment.
I'm kinda hoping there's an update to Autocannons in the marine codex. I'm excited for a change to Lascannons, but I havea feeling it'll include an uprate in points as well. It's almost a shame that most of our weapons are specifically named and not generic imperium weapons as we're going to benefit not a lot from the global updates. 12" cognis flamer would be nice though.
.
they said all equivalent weapons will get an update including tau and eldar so here's hoping
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: @U02dah4
While that makes some sense, you would only need one unit of them for that use case; they need to block just long enough for better melee units to arrive.
Bringing more seems to be a risky plan that is easily foiled if they bring anything with Scout deployment.
its basically my only beef about them, they wounded everything i wanted them to attack on 4s or 5s so they never did enough damage. Now they wound on 3s/4s (T4/5 targets). Priests even if they dont roll 6s still shreded things for me because they were S5 AP2, so they wounded reliably regardless of the mortal potential.
at this point ive stopped paying attention to the cheese marines get. Most of the time the "op nature of the army" goes to the player's head and they do something stupid anyway. Got several guys that play ultrasmurfs around me that almost never win because they have 0 idea what theyre doing, theyre just fielding the powerhouse units lol. Funny thing is some of them play nonmarines and wreck face so its not just theyre noobs.
Legit, i keep running across people running those plasma flying gravis armor guys (i always forget their name) and overcharging them/firing at a T7/8 high wound model. And as a result, self-nuke 1-2 dudes lol. Im like "Why are you sending that crap after my big tanks? Those are elite killers not antitank weapons" and they just scoff at the idea of "overkilling" my elites....
Vineheart01 wrote: at this point ive stopped paying attention to the cheese marines get. Most of the time the "op nature of the army" goes to the player's head and they do something stupid anyway.
Got several guys that play ultrasmurfs around me that almost never win because they have 0 idea what theyre doing, theyre just fielding the powerhouse units lol.
This is true. It's almost never "make a good list." It's "practice your list until it gets good."
From the game I've played the other day, Infiltrators still feel really lackluster. They don't have enough attacks. I charged a unit of 5 (with Swords) at 2 Crisis and a few T'au Breachers and two died on Overwatch (5+ Overwatch still hurts) and then they killed two Breachers and just got shot the turn after. It's anecdotal evidence I know, but from my maths they're still not really good. In the end they still allowed me to block the Crisis from firing a turn and clean a bit around an objective, but I'd rather have had 10 Hoplites for that role. Or Ryza Ruststalkers with the AP-1 canticle, as they're cheaper and have more attacks.
Anyone tried Hoplites competitively? They seem just on the cusp of being a solid pick, only to get smacked down by their lack of Forgeworld keyword. I would really like to see them back on the table, their rules are just hindered inexplicably.
Goldenemperor wrote: Anyone tried Hoplites competitively? They seem just on the cusp of being a solid pick, only to get smacked down by their lack of Forgeworld keyword. I would really like to see them back on the table, their rules are just hindered inexplicably.
They're great as a defensive pick. But right now, I think Fulgurites are better for the meta because of how important fighting in the midboard is, and once you get the invulnerable save plus the Acquisition buff on them, they are absolute monsters.
breacher spam list came in 3rd at a 59 person event in Norway. Ran a trans node FW with 5x5 breachers and a dominus with genator backed by a mars spearhead with cawl, 3 robots and 2 onagers.
Surprised it did well but I believe this might be the best showing for admech so far in 9th?
Very surprising. Breachers worked in a meta dominated by vehicles. In this meta, they are outgunned and outmanned by every other army's elite infantry.
Suzuteo wrote: Very surprising. Breachers worked in a meta dominated by vehicles. In this meta, they are outgunned and outmanned by every other army's elite infantry.
It's not that surprising, 4+ BS aside, Heavy Arc Rifles are solid multi-wound infantry/non-vehicle killers. 2 x str 6, ap-2 D3 damage on any target. And exploding hits on a 5+ gives you a good chance of getting another shot on target. They're about as durable an infantry unit as we have and obsec as well. If you go all-in on them with trans node and genator you substantially increase their effectiveness. Plus adding aquisition to them makes them a 2+/5++/5+++ with your warlord nearby. I almost did this myself, almost wish I didn't have 15 doggos tbh, overestimated their usefulness I think. They're still better than barebones rangers and vanguard overall but pricier and not infantry, but you cant half-arse the use of trans node, it's an all or nothing kind of approach.
Suzuteo wrote: Very surprising. Breachers worked in a meta dominated by vehicles. In this meta, they are outgunned and outmanned by every other army's elite infantry.
It's not that surprising, 4+ BS aside, Heavy Arc Rifles are solid multi-wound infantry/non-vehicle killers. 2 x str 6, ap-2 D3 damage on any target. And exploding hits on a 5+ gives you a good chance of getting another shot on target. They're about as durable an infantry unit as we have and obsec as well. If you go all-in on them with trans node and genator you substantially increase their effectiveness. Plus adding aquisition to them makes them a 2+/5++/5+++ with your warlord nearby. I almost did this myself, almost wish I didn't have 15 doggos tbh, overestimated their usefulness I think. They're still better than barebones rangers and vanguard overall but pricier and not infantry, but you cant half-arse the use of trans node, it's an all or nothing kind of approach.
If my math is right each breacher squad with cawl re-rolls and exploding 5's kills average of 2 gravis models a turn. So 10 models a turn from 5 squads. Against regular 2 wound marines its a little better at 5 per squad. It's not..terrible? And they are relatively tough. I cant see myself buying 15 more breachers to try it out though.
I believe 15 doggos is too much. I like 10 right now but could see myself going down to a single squad. Only time I'd take 15 is as allies for knights.
I mean, 15 Breachers (525) deal 26.67 wounds to Gravis per turn. 4 Dakkabots (500) deal 38.5 wounds. This includes Cawl rerolls, HO WLT, and Wrath for the Dakkabots. If we give the Dakkabots +1 to hit, it goes to 45.63 wounds.
They are, however, much more durable:
T5 45W 2+
T7 24W 2+/4++ (5++ after rooting)
They also have ObSec, so the old strategy of just shoving 15 of them into the midboard and laughing is still valid. Albeit much less powerful without the ability to give them all 5++ and resurrect potentially two per turn.
That said, the king of anti-Gravis is still Grav Destroyers. 12 of them with Cawl rerolls deals a whopping average of 58.33 wounds! With +1 to hit it is 69.14 wounds.
Hence why my list features the Elimination Volley combo. It's riskier for sure, but I won't fall behind and lose just because I go second. Which is a huge problem right now.
Suzuteo wrote: I mean, 15 Breachers (525) deal 26.67 wounds to Gravis per turn. 4 Dakkabots (500) deal 38.5 wounds. This includes Cawl rerolls, HO WLT, and Wrath for the Dakkabots. If we give the Dakkabots +1 to hit, it goes to 45.63 wounds.
They are, however, much more durable:
T5 45W 2+
T7 24W 2+/4++ (5++ after rooting)
They also have ObSec, so the old strategy of just shoving 15 of them into the midboard and laughing is still valid. Albeit much less powerful without the ability to give them all 5++ and resurrect potentially two per turn.
That said, the king of anti-Gravis is still Grav Destroyers. 12 of them with Cawl rerolls deals a whopping average of 58.33 wounds! With +1 to hit it is 69.14 wounds.
Hence why my list features the Elimination Volley combo. It's riskier for sure, but I won't fall behind and lose just because I go second. Which is a huge problem right now.
TBH 15 breachers, 5 destroyers and 4 dakkabots seems like a list i wouldnt mind running.
Throw in some Lascannon Ironstriders and you've got something, for sure. You don't even need them to be Mars since they barely benefit from Mars effects.
DarkHound wrote: Throw in some Lascannon Ironstriders and you've got something, for sure. You don't even need them to be Mars since they barely benefit from Mars effects.
cawl, daedalosus, manipulus, 15 breachers, 5 destroyers, 4 dakkabots, 3 lascannon ballistari, 5 raiders and a fusilave are 2000pts on the dot.
The math bears out that Breachers with Arc custom trait are better than Cawl and the Mars canticle against most targets. More-over, Daedalosus, Extermination Volley, and a Dominus/rr1s canticle are the same as Cawl. Ultimately, Mars is only better if your Breachers are shooting T7 vehicles, and significantly worse against any other target.
The tournament list in question was something like: Battalion, Custom Forge World, Data-hoard, Arc weapons Dominus, Learnings of the Genetor, Autocaduceus Daedalosus 25 Breachers, Arc Rifle, Arc Claw Fusilave, Command Uplink
Mars is applying to all the important stuff that need the +1S to meet anti-tank breakpoints. It's pretty clever, honestly. I could only think of ways to make the list different, not better. It knows exactly what it's trying to do, and is very good at doing specifically that.
Amusingly, the Arc buff also applies to the Claw, and they end up being surprisingly formidable in assault. Give them re-roll 1s canticle, switch Learnings to the melee buff, and each Breacher inflicts 1.13 wounds to Gravis, or a lot more to anything T3 or worse armor. They're still not principally melee units, but they're more than equipped to finish off anything they've been shooting at.
You're right, I didn't notice that. That actually changes my view on the list quite a bit. I think the principle benefit is Cawl's full re-roll is most effective on BS4+, like the Dunecrawlers and Bots. Cawl's canticle manipulation only affects the first die for all the Breachers, so I don't think that's worth it compared to just picking the right canticle. Maybe Wrath of Mars is important for ignoring invuls in some matchups, but 3 Dakkabots are hardly a good recipient.
I'd rather drop Cawl and the bots for some Lascannon Ironstriders, like I said initially.
I still don't even know if 25 Breachers can beat a Marines list. If they bring 1000 points of Gravis armour, they outgun us by a wide margin (because we no longer have 5++ or resurrection). Salamanders with meltas and flamestorm gauntlets. Everyone else with boltstorm spam. And they can advance and shoot with no penalty; 12 S4 AP1 (AP2 for one turn) shots with 23″ threat radius and +1 to wound with a Chaplain.
Though I guess we have two advantages: ObSec. And we're still great against vehicles.
If the meta settles on "Bring the most efficient MEQ-killer units you can" we can assume Marines will do the same as they'll face mostly Marines themselves. So they'll play Damage 2 or 3 weaponry, Gravis to counter bolters etc. So isn't it a good idea to go against the tide and play lists that don't fit the MEQ model ? Breachers are like Gravis marines after all, Destroyers less resilient though. Graviton, plasma and melta will have a field day against them.
Wouldnt Skitarii Horde work decently ? I can see them played as Lucius to be quite fitting, as they'll ignore the bolters' AP-1 and waste any multi-damage shot their way. Pack them with a handful of plasma calivers, and prefer Vanguards to Rangers, and they can do honesy damage on their own. Try to submerge objectives with multiple units to have more models than the Marine player with ObSec (as Kataphrons aren't very numerous) and keep the classic Dakkabots and Ironstriders for the lethality.
Aaranis wrote: If the meta settles on "Bring the most efficient MEQ-killer units you can" we can assume Marines will do the same as they'll face mostly Marines themselves. So they'll play Damage 2 or 3 weaponry, Gravis to counter bolters etc. So isn't it a good idea to go against the tide and play lists that don't fit the MEQ model ? Breachers are like Gravis marines after all, Destroyers less resilient though. Graviton, plasma and melta will have a field day against them.
Wouldnt Skitarii Horde work decently ? I can see them played as Lucius to be quite fitting, as they'll ignore the bolters' AP-1 and waste any multi-damage shot their way. Pack them with a handful of plasma calivers, and prefer Vanguards to Rangers, and they can do honesy damage on their own. Try to submerge objectives with multiple units to have more models than the Marine player with ObSec (as Kataphrons aren't very numerous) and keep the classic Dakkabots and Ironstriders for the lethality.
Then, you will have multi damage weapons shooting at your dakkabots and ironstriders and their bolters aiming at your horde. Perfect for maximizing utility of their weapons.
If you saturate the board with multiwounds at least half the weapons of the adversary wouldn't be perfect for the target.
If I'd play horde, Id play horde. Take just two or three light vehicles and will be blown away turn one.
Im not a fan of bringing Cawl in mixed or split detachments. You either focus on his aspect which is shooting efficiency and list tailor that way or you go for priests and boats. not both.
If you arent rolling for his canticles you lose too much of his efficiency.
I am currently looking at pure mars double patrol including:
Secondaries tend to favour: EOAF, WWSWF, and a spare. Scramblers has worked and mission specifics.
Generally fan raiders on flanks and centre, moveblock with flyers and then push a unit of breachers up ahead of my boats(who use terrain) and a second unit behind flank ahead of striders. I just play keep away for the most part with corpuscarii threatening a flank with WoM / -2ap in from reserve to keep them honest. Breachers ive found are nice for denying zippy units to fly over and steal primary and their bases are big for denying board.
Suzuteo wrote: I still don't even know if 25 Breachers can beat a Marines list. If they bring 1000 points of Gravis armour, they outgun us by a wide margin (because we no longer have 5++ or resurrection). Salamanders with meltas and flamestorm gauntlets. Everyone else with boltstorm spam. And they can advance and shoot with no penalty; 12 S4 AP1 (AP2 for one turn) shots with 23″ threat radius and +1 to wound with a Chaplain.
Though I guess we have two advantages: ObSec. And we're still great against vehicles.
I mean, the list took 3rd at a grand tournament, so it's clearly up to snuff. All our quibbling is merely academic.
Suzuteo wrote: @DarkHound There is also the HO WLT, but you cannot fit 15 Breachers in the aura, so eh...
I'd cut Crawlers entirely. This is not like 8E where everything had Fly.
Also surprised that he did not take Mars Canticle. I mean, why not?
He needs the Holy Order trait to be in the Custom Forgeworld with the Breachers to apply to them, so no Mars canticle just isn't an option. The Crawlers are actually really really good against specific meta boogymen like Harlies and Dark Eldar: all their vehicles have fly but not Hard to Hit.
In short, the introduction of "Core" keyword to units like basic infantry, Terminators, bikes and such means that aura abilities may just affect those "Core" units. In the exemple they show a Repulsor no longer benefiting from rerolls from a Captain, or a Captain no longer boosted by a Lieutenant's Aura.
I sincerely hope they'll boost the Dakkabots' BS to 3+ or change their datasheet in another way as to compensate the loss of Cawl's aura, or even just the Dominus. I doubt they'll be core units. But in a way, IF THEY WRITE THE CODEX WELL, it will means less incentive to just play Cawl and friends and may encourage us to play other Forge-Worlds and builds. Seeing as the V9 dogmas look to be much more than just a short sentence (seeing the new Necrons for example) this could be great for diversity and so be less predictable in game, as we'll have more ways to play.
Yeah, that's a step in the right direction. You're right that we'll need to rebalance a lot of units with a new codex, but this will give GW better control over units' power. As it stands, they have to account for the strongest possible situation for a unit, and so its baseline power is often reduced to compensate for buffs. Consequently, the unit isn't powerful enough in other situations: see literally all of our vehicles without Mars canticle and Cawl.
It'll be a good change for the game eventually, but I expect the rollout to be extremely rocky.
DarkHound wrote: Though I guess we have two advantages: ObSec. And we're still great against vehicles.
I mean, the list took 3rd at a grand tournament, so it's clearly up to snuff. All our quibbling is merely academic.
I have seen weird lists luck out in matchmaking. Fact is, 40K at 2000 points is not great for a competitive format because of how few games you play, even at a GT. Other games can fit 10-14 games in such a long timeframe.
DarkHound wrote: He needs the Holy Order trait to be in the Custom Forgeworld with the Breachers to apply to them, so no Mars canticle just isn't an option. The Crawlers are actually really really good against specific meta boogymen like Harlies and Dark Eldar: all their vehicles have fly but not Hard to Hit.
Ah right.
Crawlers fall flat against Marines. I know I sound like a broken record, but I think we should specialize first against the most difficult to beat list there is and worry about the other lists later. Besides, Dakkabots are amazing against these targets. Grav Destroyers really suck though, since they have 5+ and 6+ saves and rely on invulnerables. I would just aim them at infantry.
That said, the new Core keyword takes some of the heat off of us. At least now we're sure that Marines will be spamming Core units. Lol.
Yeah I can't argue that a Fist Kastelan is worth the same as a Dakkastelan, and that a Dakkastelan is worth that much without Cawl. Well we won't have our codex until next year so plenty of time left. I hope we'll get our Primus sooner !
@Aaranis
Concerning Core units, I am not sure if AdMech will get the same treatment. We don't have nearly as wide an array of choices, and we're known for our vehicles. In fact, you pretty much cannot play AdMech with some degree of mechanization.
Suzuteo wrote: @Aaranis
Concerning Core units, I am not sure if AdMech will get the same treatment. We don't have nearly as wide an array of choices, and we're known for our vehicles. In fact, you pretty much cannot play AdMech with some degree of mechanization.
well, they have explicitly stated that "some" vehicles will be getting the CORE keyword. my guess is the smaller ones, things like SMurf bikes and such. Maybe some of the Fast Attack vehicle options IG Sentinels, or our own Ironstriders and Dragoons, could get the CORE keyword as well.
Seeing as terminators are getting CORE, its logical that some Elite unit choices might get it as well. for admech. we have the Secutarii (personally, not likely, as forge world), the Sicarians (possible, but im not sure they'd benefit much) or the Electro priests (given how popular they are, i'd say most likely), or possibly some new elite choice as part of codex buzz.
heavy support? im not sure. my gut says that SM Devastators will be CORE, so i expect some elements might be. but apart form the Dakabots, i cant think of anything that might get it.
It would be ironic if our infantry don't get Core.
But I honestly find it difficult for our codex specifically because we're technically two-and-a-half codexes smashed together.
Maybe all Skitarii and Cult units will get it. Or Maybe they will have Skitarii and Cult specific auras. Maybe Knights will be integrated into the codex finally, but not get Core.
I would hope the CORE keyword would depend more on the army style. I'm sure troops will get it by default but, with Admech being more themed around shooting, I would hope our tanks and shooty units would get it too. Otherwise it would make the few useful auras we have useless in some lists.
If GW is going after army "themes" then AdMech troops would not get the Core keyword. Our entire army is based around machine worship, so it would makes sense, thematically for the army not necessarily balance-wise, that most of our vehicles would get the Core keyword.
Tech Priests do not care at all about Skitarii or Kataphrons. I mean they use Skitarii as batteries in Dunecrawlers for Emperors sake haha.
But we know a Primus is coming, commander of Skitarii, and Skitarii are still good troops, they'll assuredly get "core". I think most of the foot units will get "core", with exceptions. Maybe our lightest vehicles will retain their rerolls if we follow the example of Tomb Blades getting it.
Aaranis wrote: But we know a Primus is coming, commander of Skitarii, and Skitarii are still good troops, they'll assuredly get "core". I think most of the foot units will get "core", with exceptions. Maybe our lightest vehicles will retain their rerolls if we follow the example of Tomb Blades getting it.
Yea, I suppose we will have to see. I am stoked for that Primus model stat line tho, finally a SKITARII HQ.
It would actually be pretty fluffy for our character auras to ignore this new Core keyword concept. Nobody in our army is inspiring anyone, they're all digital commands and sub-routines that affect all systems within their radius.
Would actually be a decent army rule, although I kinda would hope to get improved auras by restricting what they can effect.
By this train of thought then Tyranids should ignore it too, as well as T'au maybe. Drukhari are not really "inspired" by their leaders neither. I've always interpreted rerolls as the commander giving precise orders to the surrounding units, resulting in a more efficient shooting/assault, translating in rerolls in game. But there's got to be a frontier between fluff and crunch, otherwise there's a lot of things we can add to the complain bin.
I'm hoping for a complete rework of our codex (and the others too of course), rewriting faulty datasheets to make them more original, as well as stratagems, warlords traits, dogmas etc. I'd like characters to be less polyvalent in their auras, giving a better, more thematic buff but to a few units only.
For example a Datasmith would chose a bonus to give to a maximum number of Kastelan units around him, among a list of options. Could be +1 to WS, or +1 AP on their guns, something like that. A list to allow changes every turn to be more flexible. It would give the character a purpose at least.
A Primus could boost everything Skitarii, if using a list like I said above it could be a variant of our old Doctrinas to make them fight better, or shoot better, be unbreakable or something along these lines.
The Enginseer could boost vehicles. The Dominus be more suited to lead Servitors but still give a small aura to everything else.
I hope every codex is written like that but time will tell.
Like I said, applying auras broadly is how you end up with every unit being balanced around having Cawl, thus necessitating Cawl to be effective. We'll see what actually ends up happening, and how or even if they roll out <Core> to other factions before their new codex. We'll probably get our next book in the first half of next year, but that's still a long way away.
By the way, has anyone been playing Crusades? I've been having a blast. You end up playing very different from matched play games. While it's pretty easy to identify the most generically powerful upgrades, I've found that specializing units is more useful and more fun.
One unit of my Ruststalker units has Fleet of Foot to improve charge chances after using Circuitous Assassins, while the other has upgraded Chordclaws for chewing through MEQs (-1AP, +1 damage). Next, I'll probably upgrade the backfielders with ObSec and upgrade the midfielders' Razors with exploding 6s for hordes.
Each of my Warglaives has different upgrades to reflect some specialization and preference of the pilots. One's faster for Full Tilt, one's better against MEQ, one's better against vehicles.
For my Manipulus, I'm also planning on taking Monitor Malevolus, Laurels of Victory, and Tactical Experience (after you use a strat, on a 6 gain 1CP). You still can't gain more than 1 CP per battle round, but you can roll Monitor and Experience at the same time to gain CP more reliably. Just maximize CP for an extra 7 per game.
I'm also looking at building more snipers, even though they don't make the cut in normal games. I took 5 Rangers with 2 Arquebus because I have the models for Kill Team and I like them, but the Headhunters upgrade makes them shine. +1 wound roll causes Mortals on a 5. I might expand them to 10 with 3 rifles, and get +1 damage and -1AP on the next upgrade. I plan to do basically the same thing with my Raiders. That might make both of them a staple in my Crusades.
Yeah Crusade can be a lot of fun. You can create some monstrous things... just stacking enough battle honours on something can really create some insane things.
But aren't weapon upgrades for a single model?
As I recall the upgrade, it doesnt count for the unit.. because otherwise High Caliber (+1S for a ranged weapon) would be insane on... well anything. 10 Vanguard would suddenly outbolter marines with a fair margin...
Wow, you are right. I'm surprised my friends and I totally misunderstood the rules. I thought the upgrade applied to the unit and crazy OP stuff was just going to be the norm. At least it didn't affect the few games I played too much.
I suppose most infantry will be pretty unlikely to get more than 1 battle honor. After the first, it's inefficient to Mark them for Glory, and they'll take most of the Out of Action tests so lose experience most often.
My strategy was to Mark units that didn't score secondaries, so everybody hit Bloodied around game 3. Beyond that, I'm not sure what AdMech's best investments are.
Our HQs aren't really fighters, and there aren't too many support Honors: Tactical Experience, Laurels of Victory, and Inspiring Hero (I guess?). The best fighting HQ I could think of was a Manipulus with Prime Hermeticon, Psuedogenetor, and start stacking attacks with Deadly Charge and Frenzon Injector, but that still wasn't hugely impressive. For a shooting HQ, you can go Dominus with Phospheonix, Magos, and upgrade the Volkite with AP-1. That's about 3 wounds vs MEQs, which isn't awful, but still meh.
Ironstriders and Dakkabots pick up Armour Bane, and then like Improved Shielding or Blessed Hulls? Going for a gun enhancement on one model doesn't seem revolutionary, and the re-rolls are redundant.
I can see Icarus Dunecrawlers getting a big bump from +1S and Armour Bane. Disintegrators are also good, but you only upgrade half their weapons.
well it can make a fair bit of difference on vehicles or other low model count units.
Like going with a S8 Belleros Cannon or S10 Ferumite to tag T5 targets. Arquebi are a valid target as well to go to S8.
While I didnt start a crusade with admech, I did so with custodes - and my line troop has essentially a heavy bolter combi weapon.
Putting it on 1 of 3 units means he now wounds T3 on 2s instead of 3s which is significant. Same counts for Kastelan e.g. (if you run Mars) you now wound Marines on 2s.
There are some really neat relics IIRC on the later tiers that you could give your HQs for battle honours. Skitarii infantry however - yes, those guys are and will remain chaff.
Quick question, which is better: 2 x 5man squads of electro priests or one 10 man squad? Assuming elite slots are available, im curious if its better to have one big squad or two smaller ones that could potentially attack t we'r o objectives at once
xerxeskingofking wrote: Quick question, which is better: 2 x 5man squads of electro priests or one 10 man squad? Assuming elite slots are available, im curious if its better to have one big squad or two smaller ones that could potentially attack t we'r o objectives at once
As large a unit as possible for Priests. They are both very stratagem dependent. Fulgurites use Zealous Congregation and Acquisition At Any Cost. Corpuscarii use Electrostatic Overcharge.
another data horde breacher spam list took 4th at the brisbane GT. 5x5 breachers, 2 manipulus, dominus and 3 disintegrators and a stygies outrider with daedalosus, 3 squads of raiders and 2 units of sterylizors.
I can see the Disintegrators as an option to score While We Stand compared to the Dunecrawlers and Dakkabots of the other list. Stygies Raiders make sense just to cover for the Breacher's slowness. I can only imagine the Sterylizors are for fallback prevention, but I don't know how important that is. I also don't know what the second Manipulus is for. Does he really need the extra aura coverage?
"Cognis Overwatch" strat is called and paid for "before an Adeptus Mechanicus unit form your army fires Overwatch", to quote the strat text.
does this mean that to use it, i spend 1CP to call "Fire Overwatch", then a second CP to call "Cognis Overwatch", i.e. 2CP to get the benefit, correct? or is thier some other way of getting Overwatch that means i wont always have to spend 2 CP to get it?
That is correct, you have to pay 1CP for Overwatch then another 1CP for Cognis Overwatch. Currently, there is no other way to get Overwatch, which is a shame because we have a lot of things that modify Overwatch.
Played a second game this weekend, a 2000 pts game against Death Guard. Lost 73-61, so kinda close game, but very enjoyable. I'm really glad that Death Guard seems to be less boring to play against, even though their resilience is still hard to beat.
He played a CP-intensive list as he had a lot of PA stuff, he started the game with 4 CP ! From memory his list was: 1 Daemon Prince, 3 PBC (which had a 4++ with a relic on the WL), 1 Biologus, 1 Flamer guy, 1 Sorcerer, another character, a block of 20 Plague Marines, 20 Poxwalkers, 2 Rhinos, 2 squads of Plague Marines with melee weapons in the Rhinos and with two of the characters with them. His strategy was basically to keep the PBCs in the back out of LoS with the Lord to have them shoot with the Mortars and Entropic Cannons when they could, while enjoying a nice 4++. The big block of PM were moving towards my line while tanking the brunt of my army, with a -1 to Hit (psychic power), reroll 1s and 2s FnP with the Biologus and their natural resilience. The Rhinos were supposed to move on the other flank and deliver a squad that threw a load of boosted grenades that did MWs on important targets.
My list was written in a rush and with the models I had, as I did a replacement last-minute for his opponent, but still worked rather well considering the circumstances. It was:
- Cawl (WL)
- Manipulus
- Daedalosus
- 3x5 Vanguards with 1 plasma
- 5 Vanguards
- 2x5 Rangers with 2 arquebuses and Omnispex
- 4 Autocannon Striders
- 2 Lascannon Striders
- 3 Sulphurhounds with the carbine (I know but WYSIWYG)
- 2 Dakkastelans - 4 Fistelans with Flamers
My secondaries were Domination (bad choice with my list, and against Death Guard), Kill the Psykers and Bring them Down. Killed the two Psykers, 2 Rhinos (4 pts) and the Daemon Prince (2 pts) but didn't manage to finish off any PBC because of LoS issues and their resilience. My opponent had Raise the Banners, While we Fight we Stand and Domination, and his objectives worked out better than mine. I'll definitely try the Banners someday, it's just that I never tried it because it seemed to be lot of hassle for few things but it scores quite well in games like these where I had three objectives from start to finish save one turn.
DarkHound wrote: I can see the Disintegrators as an option to score While We Stand compared to the Dunecrawlers and Dakkabots of the other list. Stygies Raiders make sense just to cover for the Breacher's slowness. I can only imagine the Sterylizors are for fallback prevention, but I don't know how important that is. I also don't know what the second Manipulus is for. Does he really need the extra aura coverage?
disintegrators are just better in every way than crawlers and robots. Heavy terrain invalidates the their uses and 9th has ramped it up, they can split fire for better efficiency and they have artillery to threaten primaries. They also move 12" and can ignore cover while hitting on 2s.
25 breachers needs 2 manipulus for board presence, if he doesnt take midboard he cant get into the game.
Likewise, Stygies Raiders offers -1hit which is very important when your screens are what enables the above point.
Sterylizors have multiple value, you can pay to scout move and then, as infantry, they can breach ruins and tag with Deeply Sunk to invalidate an entire movement phase which enables the above. They can also deploy scramblers, Soar Away, score again on turn 3 and repeat to do the same on turn 5. They also have 12"move and can support raiders for Engage on All fronts.
Hey everyone long time removed player here trying to start again. I've been really trying to immerse myself in the current meta for admech before I go off spending 100's of dollars, and all the info im seeing online seems to run contradictory to what I see on here. Mars shooting castle w/ cawl and dakka bots, electro priests in transports, ironstriders with auto cannons, crawlers with icarus arrays and fusilaves seem like all the buzz on youtube, Google, etc but here it seems that data hoard breachers, destroyers, raiders, and disintegraters seem to be more praised while electro priests, dakkabots etc seem to be critically recieved. Its hard for me to decide which way to take my army. Seems to be very little info on flyers, has anyone done the math on these to see which is more efficient?
The math is good on every unit you've mentioned, in the right circumstances. It takes only a couple of seconds to check the math on units yourself. The trick is putting those units in those circumstances.
Two Data-hoard Breachers are the only thing that have placed well at tournaments, but those lists had little in common except the 25 Breachers. To be clear, we've just been discussing those tournament results the last couple pages. Go back further and you'll see we advocate all those other units too. Cawl with Ironstriders is the common thread of our theory crafting lately.
Part of AdMech's poor tournament showing has been that we're extremely dollar expensive per point and relatively difficult to play. Given the option, stronger players have gone with more accessible Space Marines. We'll see what changes as AdMech gets figured out.
On that note, the meta is going to shift faster than you can keep up with. It's better to build and play something you enjoy first. Your effort in practice and preparation is going to be more important than minor statistical differences. It isn't worth trying to build 25 Breachers if you quit out of boredom by the 15th, yeh?
For the flyers, the Transvector is universally reviled: it doesn't really have a purpose, but might become useful in a year if the Skitarii range get expanded more (imagine dropping special weapon teams, etc.). The Stratoraptor is just okay; perfectly fine to play, but the math isn't great and it doesn't do anything special. The Fusilave is the best of the bunch and well regarded for its utility and output.
DarkHound wrote: The math is good on every unit you've mentioned, in the right circumstances. It takes only a couple of seconds to check the math on units yourself. The trick is putting those units in those circumstances.
Two Data-hoard Breachers are the only thing that have placed well at tournaments, but those lists had little in common except the 25 Breachers. To be clear, we've just been discussing those tournament results the last couple pages. Go back further and you'll see we advocate all those other units too. Cawl with Ironstriders is the common thread of our theory crafting lately.
Part of AdMech's poor tournament showing has been that we're extremely dollar expensive per point and relatively difficult to play. Given the option, stronger players have gone with more accessible Space Marines. We'll see what changes as AdMech gets figured out.
On that note, the meta is going to shift faster than you can keep up with. It's better to build and play something you enjoy first. Your effort in practice and preparation is going to be more important than minor statistical differences. It isn't worth trying to build 25 Breachers if you quit out of boredom by the 15th, yeh?
For the flyers, the Transvector is universally reviled: it doesn't really have a purpose, but might become useful in a year if the Skitarii range get expanded more (imagine dropping special weapon teams, etc.). The Stratoraptor is just okay; perfectly fine to play, but the math isn't great and it doesn't do anything special. The Fusilave is the best of the bunch and well regarded for its utility and output.
Oh okay, i guess I didn't look back far enough haha. I wanted to be as *current* as possible. I understand. Yeah I see its really expensive, im still on the fence as to whether I want to start an admech or ork army haha. Admech have the coolest look though, probably going to go with them. Thanks for the info. Im pretty adaptable to play styles but playing a game where the conclusion is "oh, i lost because im admech." Or "oh, i lost because there's just no way to beat this army because these units are the worst my army has to offer" is no fun to me lol. Yeah Im starting with 1000 points. One quick question. Is sprinkling in a culexus assassin worth it for the anti psyker presence? I dont see anyone really doing it. Thanks for the info.
Yeah, AdMech is in a good spot where pretty much everything is workable for casual/narrative games. I'd say the worst units are Dragoons, Infiltrators, Kastellans with fists, and Transvectors. You could be more strict, but every other unit at least has an argument for being useful (though not all weapon loadouts are useful; looking at you, Dunecrawler).
Going by tournament and meta-analysis, AdMech is bumping around tier 2. As I said, most of our units are good, and if you put together exclusively the best stuff you can win events. The limiting factor is just that the truly tier 1 armies (Death Guard/Chaos Soup, Space Marines, Custodes) happen to be specialized for the demands of 9th edition. They've got extremely tough, versatile midfield brawlers with ObSec. It makes sense that AdMech's best tournament success have emulated those stat profiles.
I don't think a Culexus is necessary, as psykers are mostly punished by the Abhor the Witch secondary anyway. If you like the model and have CP to spare, it won't hurt you.
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, AdMech is in a good spot where pretty much everything is workable for casual/narrative games. I'd say the worst units are Dragoons, Infiltrators, Kastellans with fists, and Transvectors. You could be more strict, but every other unit at least has an argument for being useful (though not all weapon loadouts are useful; looking at you, Dunecrawler).
Going by tournament and meta-analysis, AdMech is bumping around tier 2. As I said, most of our units are good, and if you put together exclusively the best stuff you can win events. The limiting factor is just that the truly tier 1 armies (Death Guard/Chaos Soup, Space Marines, Custodes) happen to be specialized for the demands of 9th edition. They've got extremely tough, versatile midfield brawlers with ObSec. It makes sense that AdMech's best tournament success have emulated those stat profiles.
I don't think a Culexus is necessary, as psykers are mostly punished by the Abhor the Witch secondary anyway. If you like the model and have CP to spare, it won't hurt you.
yeah thats true I won't make it a huge point to include a cullexus then. If space marines/chaos/custodes seem to be tier 1 why are destroyers not taken as often? I feel like the grav weapon was made for 3+ AS units. Is it because theyre more fragile?
Grav Destroyers aren't bad at all, and there's not a lot of data yet on good AdMech lists. Before those two top 4 placements, it was hard to find the lists of AdMech players placing middle of the pack or lower at tournaments. The ones I did find were pretty bad; they looked like they were cobbled together from meager collections, rather than coherent competitive attempts. It's going to be a while yet before serious players put the time and effort into AdMech to show results.
Why weren't Grav Destroyers looked at from the get-go? They're more fragile, expensive, and bad in close combat. Breachers are better at actually being troops and holding objectives. The more of them you bring, the more incentivized you are to use the Custom Forgeworld, which in turn incentivizes more Breachers. Grav Destroyers are good at killing MEQ, but then again Breachers aren't bad either. By the time you have enough Breachers to do their primary job of holding objectives, you incidentally have enough anti-MEQ. Anything more is over-specializing.
To win an event, you need to beat every list, not just the top tiers. If you focus on T5 W3 3+, you'll get bent over by some infantry horde in round 2 and lose your chance for top placement. That's why repeated success is important, since lucky match-ups over 5 games do happen.
Data Hoard Dominus, 2x Manipulii, with Genetor and Hermeticon WLT. 25 Breachers with 5+ exploding Heavy Arc Rifles, 5+++, reroll failed hits in Fighting. 3x Mortar Grators.
Stygies Raiders and Sterylizors. Probably to rush ahead and grab objectives, as well as immediately get Engage On All Fronts.
Two important points:
1) This list was designed for point-scoring efficiency, and I don't think he cared at all for the killing power of his units. He pretty much denies most secondaries while completing a specific set of them. Namely, the McGowan took Engage On All Fronts, Deploy Scramblers, and Assassinate in EVERY game he played.
2) Looking at the rest of the competition, and there are no ridiculous Gravis spam lists. The winner of the GT spammed Nurglings, Plaguebearers, Beasts of Nurgle, and a Bloodletter bomb. So pretty much the same strategy as McGowan, only he gets to scout deploy instead of scout move. He beat McGowan pretty soundly, 74-56. The problem with McGowan's strategy is that it has very poor killing power, so he probably could not remove the Nurglings in time to come back. (IMO, any strategy that pretty much auto-loses against scout deploy, which Space Marines and Death Guard have in spades, is problematic.) McGowan also only barely beat the third place Tyranid list 92-87.
Still, I think the lesson learned from this is that being able to score 80 and up consistently is extremely important.
Heavy Support - 500 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
The Corpuscarii got cut because this list just ferociously eats CP. Once I am out, they severely underperform. I replaced them with two more Plasma Vanguard with Omnispex (10 spare points). They ride in the Boat with the Fulgurites. Pack a good punch, are plenty cheap, and they have ObSec.
Vanguards are great so far (from my impressions). They're decently costed, not too flimsy with the easy to get 3+ on top of the 6++, and shoot great. Their number of shots and possibilities of doing 2D is great against a lot of target, save really big vehicles or 2+ units. Giving each squad one or two plasma guns is great to be able to shoot at what they usually cannot, like what I said earlier. I'm not playing without at least 4x5 Vanguards, and plan to run 6x5 when they'll be re-painted.
Ideasweasel wrote: Holy face melting plasma juice Suzuteo you must of had a fair few skittles sprues laying around lol.
All the vanguards!
I now want to call my skitarii skittles.
now i want to buy and paint a bunch of them with multicoloured cloaks in the colours of skittles with a big white S on them. i haven;t got the skillz to make it look good.
Heavy Support - 500 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
The Corpuscarii got cut because this list just ferociously eats CP. Once I am out, they severely underperform. I replaced them with two more Plasma Vanguard with Omnispex (10 spare points). They ride in the Boat with the Fulgurites. Pack a good punch, are plenty cheap, and they have ObSec.
Nice to see a vanguard list. what made you decide robots + ironstriders +destroyers instead of disintegrators + raiders+ flyer or sterilyzors? Do you find better performance from the shooting rather than even more mobile units?
The only thing preventing me from spamming plasma vanguard like that is you only get 1 plasma per 10 dudes....and i really dont want Ork level numbers of vanguards lying around lol
Patrol Detachment, Forge World Psalimit, Expansionist, Rugged Explorators [-2 CP] Manipulus, 70 [Monitor Malevolus; Omniscient Mask; -2 CP] 10 Ruststalkers, 140 10 Ruststalkers, 140 10 Vanguard, Data-tether, 95 (spare 10 points; if the tether saves even one check then it's worth it, but it's an extremely marginal upgrade) 10 Vanguard, Data-tether, 95 4 Raiders, 64 Dunecrawler, Icarus, 115 Dunecrawler, Icarus, 115 Archaeopter Fusilave, 130 964
I found that 30 Vanguard weren't doing that much damage, and usually only one squad actually uses their ObSec. I also started experimenting with Circuitous Assassins to huge success, and you get a lot more mileage with multiple squads. You can essentially pass a deployment by putting a group of Ruststalkers on a table edge, then capitalize on your opponent's reaction. Double Ruststalkers has really impressed me with their ability to hold primaries and score secondary objectives. Now I just need to convert another batch in real life (ugghh...).
I also dropped the Chaff Launcher off the Fusilave. It runs out of targets if it survives to the end game anyway, and it doesn't really degrade in output or utility if it gets beat up early. Plus you get the added bonus of jamming auras (even if that's very niche). There is a funny synergy with the Dunecrawler's data-tether. If the Dunecrawler is in the back, and the Fusilave flies within 3", then the Fusilave becomes Ld10 and projects that out 6" (plus the base).
Esoteric wrote: Nice to see a vanguard list. what made you decide robots + ironstriders +destroyers instead of disintegrators + raiders+ flyer or sterilyzors? Do you find better performance from the shooting rather than even more mobile units?
I'm honestly a bit torn. Here is my dilemma:
A) Run Grators with mobile elements. Advantages in secondary scoring. But I lose the ability to come back if I go second; you can very easily fall behind on primaries and never catch up. Also, much weaker matchups, especially against Guard, which has the terrifying mix of tanks and fast ObSec troops.
B) Run Dakkabots, which forces me to build around them and play a much more static gunline with Grav Destroyers. Distinct disadvantages in secondary scoring, but if you screw up the positioning or get blown out early, you lose.
I went with B because it feels safer. There is never a meta where being able to reliably delete a large number of units early on is not an advantage. I don't feel like 9E plays anywhere close to as cagey as 8E. It's all about brute force efficiency, either in wounds output or durability. (The Breacher spam concept is definitely strong, but I fear it is not strong enough for Marines or DG.)
DarkHound wrote: It's funny that you dropped Priests for Vanguard. I went in the opposite direction and dropped Vanguard for more Ruststalkers.
I found that 30 Vanguard weren't doing that much damage, and usually only one squad actually uses their ObSec. I also started experimenting with Circuitous Assassins to huge success, and you get a lot more mileage with multiple squads. You can essentially pass a deployment by putting a group of Ruststalkers on a table edge, then capitalize on your opponent's reaction. Double Ruststalkers has really impressed me with their ability to hold primaries and score secondary objectives. Now I just need to convert another batch in real life (ugghh...).
I also dropped the Chaff Launcher off the Fusilave. It runs out of targets if it survives to the end game anyway, and it doesn't really degrade in output or utility if it gets beat up early. Plus you get the added bonus of jamming auras (even if that's very niche). There is a funny synergy with the Dunecrawler's data-tether. If the Dunecrawler is in the back, and the Fusilave flies within 3", then the Fusilave becomes Ld10 and projects that out 6" (plus the base).
Well, like I said, it boiled down to just running out of CP. Without Overcharge stratagem, Corpuscarii are pretty bad. But I have to feed my Dakkabots and my Fuglurites.
The annoying thing about Ruststalkers is that they use 40mm bases. I've only got 10 Infiltrators to proxy with.
People on FB and Reddit have been pushing for Stratoraptor spam. I personally think it's extremely output inefficient. Good luck trying to stop Nurglings with Poxwalker blobs backing them up...
One thing I think everyone needs to do more of is figure out a strike package for strategic reserves.
Here are some combinations that I have found especially good:
1CP: 3x5 Plasma Vanguard
2CP: 2x3 Grav Destroyers, Daedalosus
2CP: 3x5 Plasma Vanguard, 3x Grav Destroyers, Daedalosus
Suzuteo wrote: The annoying thing about Ruststalkers is that they use 40mm bases. I've only got 10 Infiltrators to proxy with.
People on FB and Reddit have been pushing for Stratoraptor spam. I personally think it's extremely output inefficient. Good luck trying to stop Nurglings with Poxwalker blobs backing them up...
If you'd like, try running one or two squads of 5 Ruststalkers and aim to score Shadow Operations and/or Battlefield Supremacy with them. Just tuck them out of LoS in the corner of your opponent's deployment zone and start scoring Scramblers (or Teleport Homer if you're bold).
I've also heard people having success with Stratoraptors, but I would have to see that on the table. Even using Strafing Fire and Doctrina to buff multiple Raptors per turn, their numbers just okay. You can Mars canticle them to deal ~5 damage to T7 3+, or they can kill about 2 Gravis suits per turn. Obviously that's not bad, but it's not setting the world on fire either. Eh, actually a pair with Chaff launchers in a Cawl list would be obnoxious for scoring While We Stand and Engage on All Fronts. Maybe there is something to it.
Esoteric wrote: I wonder if the assault drill + fulgurites + daed could be a deadly combo for tanks/etc. I'd be willing to try it out
Making a 9" charge is a 54% chance with a CP re-roll. That's 300 points on a coin flip. I can justify my Ruststalkers trying to charge after Circuitous Assassins if they're already scoring Engage on All Fronts or Linebreaker anyway, because they only cost 140 points. Otherwise, I would never plan on a unit assaulting from off the board.
Heavy Support - 450 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1999 points 11 CP
As far as strike packages go, 3x Grav Destroyers and 3x5 Plasma Vanguard with Daedalosus is the most flexible combination. Good mix of anti-Marine firepower and ObSec bodies.
I could also do 2x3 Grav Destroyers and go up to 2x5 Raiders, but I'm afraid that I'd be sacrificing firepower for a bit more mass in what is ultimately a skirmishing unit. (I feel this build is light on firepower as it is... not sure what to do if I run into a list that's 50% Gravis, Nurgling/Poxwalkers, Breachers, etc.)
Suzuteo wrote: The annoying thing about Ruststalkers is that they use 40mm bases. I've only got 10 Infiltrators to proxy with.
People on FB and Reddit have been pushing for Stratoraptor spam. I personally think it's extremely output inefficient. Good luck trying to stop Nurglings with Poxwalker blobs backing them up...
If you'd like, try running one or two squads of 5 Ruststalkers and aim to score Shadow Operations and/or Battlefield Supremacy with them. Just tuck them out of LoS in the corner of your opponent's deployment zone and start scoring Scramblers (or Teleport Homer if you're bold).
I've also heard people having success with Stratoraptors, but I would have to see that on the table. Even using Strafing Fire and Doctrina to buff multiple Raptors per turn, their numbers just okay. You can Mars canticle them to deal ~5 damage to T7 3+, or they can kill about 2 Gravis suits per turn. Obviously that's not bad, but it's not setting the world on fire either. Eh, actually a pair with Chaff launchers in a Cawl list would be obnoxious for scoring While We Stand and Engage on All Fronts. Maybe there is something to it.
Esoteric wrote: I wonder if the assault drill + fulgurites + daed could be a deadly combo for tanks/etc. I'd be willing to try it out
Making a 9" charge is a 54% chance with a CP re-roll. That's 300 points on a coin flip. I can justify my Ruststalkers trying to charge after Circuitous Assassins if they're already scoring Engage on All Fronts or Linebreaker anyway, because they only cost 140 points. Otherwise, I would never plan on a unit assaulting from off the board.
You're right, I think it'd be better used by 2 5 man vanguard squads with 2 plasmas and a Daedalosus.
Heavy Support - 450 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1999 points 11 CP
As far as strike packages go, 3x Grav Destroyers and 3x5 Plasma Vanguard with Daedalosus is the most flexible combination. Good mix of anti-Marine firepower and ObSec bodies.
I could also do 2x3 Grav Destroyers and go up to 2x5 Raiders, but I'm afraid that I'd be sacrificing firepower for a bit more mass in what is ultimately a skirmishing unit. (I feel this build is light on firepower as it is... not sure what to do if I run into a list that's 50% Gravis, Nurgling/Poxwalkers, Breachers, etc.)
I think that list is better than your other one, but it might not stack up against the tournament meta. It's got a much better time scoring secondaries with Engage on All Fronts and While We Stand, but you're right: it is light on anti-Gravis. It'd be a great list if Phobos armour was the thing to beat, that's for sure.
I just don't know that Plasma spam and Belleros are the way to go. I think Ferrumite is going to serve you better; you jump your average Gravis kills from 0.9 to 1.5. You should also swap the outflanking units to 2x3 Grav Destroyers. With the Mars Canticle and Daedalosus, each Destroyer kills about 1 Gravis, so 6 kills a full Aggressor unit. You could even keep the third outflanking Vanguard squad to score secondaries.
@DarkHound
That's a good point. Ferrumite just smashes Gravis.
But I just realized something looking at the Power Rating table: 9-12x Breachers is 20 PR. Which means it costs 3 CP to respawn a giant blob of Breachers. Now, 12 might be bad because of Blast concerns, but 10 is perfectly sufficient.
I could cut 4 Raiders and 2x5 Plasma Vanguard to squeeze in a second unit of Fulgurites and give the remaining Plasma Vanguard Omnispexes. Might be worth it, actually.
Ah, that one feels like a case of 'because we can, not because we should'. The Breachers are sturdy ObSec, and they need to use both their shooting and melee profiles to get value. They only respawn in your deployment zone, so you give up their ObSec and melee. It's very unlikely they'll contribute to the game after respawning.
I'm also not sure where the Manipulus is going. He's not going to keep up with the Fulgerite's Dunerider, and he can't ride with them. If you did drop a Fulgerite to make space, he doesn't get his Movement aura since he isn't on the board at the start of the movement phase. Besides, you probably want the Agripinaa Dominus to be the Warlord for Genetor anyway.
I think the best use of Agripinaa is a block of 6 Grav Destroyers. If you're going to take Plasma, you should go Ryza. Grav Destroyers can at least contribute after their respawn. Of course, I still don't think that's very good.
That's true. Back in early 8E, when I tried Fresh Converts, it was mostly to respawn a shooting unit. But for the sake of argument, 10 Breachers with Eye of Xi Lexum is actually very good anti-vehicle.
Yeah, probably true that Manipulus would not do too much. It's like like a Solar Flare Dominus or anything.
I think 6 Grav Destroyers is too little. Sucks I cannot bump it up to 9 while staying under 20 Power. I feel like the rules writers could have done a better job here by at least looking at the codex and giving some of these Forge Worlds key units to build around.
Why strategic reserves aren’t points based, and gw insist on power level for GT play when nobody uses it is baffling. They need to just come up with a points counterpart and boom. Game much cleaner
That would make too much sense. IMO though, if we want to make 40k a more competitive game, we would rebalance around 1200 points and have players bring a 600 point main army and two 300 point sideboards. You always deploy your main army, and one of your two blocks. This allows for sideboarding. Getting games to the 100 minute mark should be a priority.
Anyhow, here is a Lucius concept list I cooked up. I actually might try it IRL, since I have all of the pieces:
Spoiler:
Lucius Patrol Detachment
HQ - 135 [8] 1x Tech-priest Dominus [5] - Warlord, Learnings of the Genetor, Solar Flare
1x Daedalosus [3]
Agents of the Imperium - 60 [4] 1x Inquisitor [4] - Warding Incantation
Total: 1990 points [98] 12 CP
Basically, I spend 2 CP to put the Destroyers and Robots in reserve. Turn one is basically me blitzing my Fulgurites and Raiders to objectives while setting up a landing zone. Fusilave will harass and get Engage On All Fronts. Turn two, I bring down the hammer. Solar Flare into position, deep strike the Robots and Destroyers, root the Robots (optional), turn on Elimination Volley, blast everything off the table and charge.
EDIT: My friend pointed out that Grav Destroyers are a Mars thing, so I dropped the Callidus to upgrade the guns to Plasma Culverins.
Things I am not sure about:
1. Is it worth losing the Abhor the Witch option to take the Inquisitor to give the Destroyer block 5++ (which goes to 4++)? Would Coteaz be better?
2. Should I drop the Fusilave for a unit of Corpuscarii? CP costs are a bit of a concern.
3. I am really light on ObSec. Would it be worthwhile to bring just some plain Vanguard?
Until Grey Knights or Thousand Sons are meta relevant, I don't think you have to worry about Abhor the Witch. Most armies are going to have 1 or 2 Psykers maximum, which doesn't make Abhor worth taking.
I would not bother teleporting the Destroyers or Robots. If you do, then where are the Dominus, Inquisitor, and Daedalosus going? I guess you can hide the Dominus and Solar Flare him into position, but Daedalosus and the Inquisitor are SOL. They can't ride in any transports, and can't use the Lucius teleport. Your guns have 36" range, so you don't need to get much closer. What are you giving up a turn of shooting to really gain?
With regards to ObSec, I have never been impressed with random squads of 5 Vanguard for actually contributing to objectives. They're not cheap since you've got to pay for a transport to get them to an enemy's objective. If the Vanguard are an after thought, better just to plan on the Fulgerites killing all opposition to secure the objective. You are right, though, this list has a huge weakness against ObSec hordes.
I recently played a game with my Tyranids against a Knight and Admech list and wrote about it. I was told that Admech players would probably enjoy the read as well. So here you go:
Huh, that game was a surprise. I can't comment too much on the Tyranids, but the Knight/AdMech list is... suboptimal. I don't agree with a lot of his plays either, but he pulled it off in the end.
If I can offer criticism, he should swap from a Vanguard to a Spearhead. Obviously the X-101 isn't a real pick. The Servitors aren't doing much either; any points spent on them are generally better spent adding bodies to other squads. Infiltrators are probably the worst unit in the book right now too; another 5 Ptexarii do their job better and complete the Spearhead.
The Enginseer should take Monitor Malevolus: it costs 1CP to add the Warlord trait and generates a CP on a D6 roll of 6 after either player uses a strat. It essentially nets you 2 extra CP on average if you've got a spare character.
Then there's the question of whether Stygies is the right Forgeworld. Pretty much all of his infantry are deepstriking and assaulting, rendering the Dogma and stratagem moot. The Ironstriders have a huge range and really don't need to move forward, so the stratagem is of minimal value to them. I'd say he's better off going Data-hoard with Cognis weapons bonus. It's defensively similar to Stygies, but with a massive damage increase.
I also run split Knights. I like that he's running 3 Warglaives: it gives him the opportunity to maximize Pack Tactics. I strongly dislike his Warden, though. The Thunderstrike Gauntlet is a damage decrease in all cases except against T8 targets. If he wants to run Landstrider+Sanctuary, he's probably better off with a Gallant. If he wants to keep a gun, he should probably take a Preceptor and use Helm of Dominatus since he has so many Armigers.
If he cleans it up, I actually like the list quite a bit. Decent assault threats in the Warglaives and Knight, solid backfield firepower in the Ironstriders and Helverins, plus some board presence and Shadow Operations opportunity from the infantry.
@DarkHound
Nids and various Chaos armies have enough Psykers to merit Abhorring.
But yeah, Lucius is an interesting list, but a durable list oftentimes just means you will have lots of units left over on the table when you lose. Lol.
In competitive terms, I still think pure Mars is the best army. I have been looking into more flexible and mobile builds:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment
HQ - 290 1x Belisarius Cawl - Static Psalm-Code (-1 CP)
1x Tech-priest Enginseer - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos, Raiment of the Technomartyr
1x Daedalosus
EDIT: So this idea bombed pretty hard. One downside to outflanking so many units is that they may be too far away from the midboard to help effectuate a comeback. So I guess I need to bring some ObSec with my Fulgurites. I revised the list with this in mind. Also, Raiders are pretty damn important.
You are right about the Boats being a problem though. Unless I am doing a Rad-saturated build, where the Boats are needed to block for a horde of Skitarii, I would be better served using strategic reserves to outflank my glass cannon infantry. For this, the most devastating 3 CP strike package I could come up with is Daeadlosus + 2x3 Grav Destroyers + 4x5 Plasma Vanguard; just drop them in one or two locations and delete units. A less specialized alternative are 4x3 Destroyers. The points freed up by this go into Raiders, which fill the role that Boats used to hold after disgorging their troops.
Only Boat I am keeping protects my Fulgurites. I have seen games with Raiders + Boat with Fulgurites inside, and the tricks are insane.
I also think I should give Ferrumite a shot. I mean, Autocannons and Belleros oftentimes feel like they're doing the same job. Ferrumite is great for W3 targets, including Gravis and Breachers. They also are great for dueling Guard tanks.
Just for the fun of it, here's my current intended list, still in the works as I paint up my models, but I think this would be the general idea of the final version of a competitive build:
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment - Forge World: Lucius. 0CP
HQ: Tech Priest Dominus - Warlord, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber, The Solar Flare, Divination of the Magos.
I might swap the Lucius detachment to something else and drop the Destroyers for another Heavy choice or the whatnot. I do like that I can essentially teleport in the Dakkabots, Priests, and Destroyers depending on the game, while positioning the Dominus with them as needed by means of Solar Flare. Still a rather early first draft but I think it's on the right path.
Techpriest_ wrote: Just for the fun of it, here's my current intended list, still in the works as I paint up my models, but I think this would be the general idea of the final version of a competitive build:
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment - Forge World: Lucius. 0CP
HQ: Tech Priest Dominus - Warlord, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber, The Solar Flare, Divination of the Magos.
I might swap the Lucius detachment to something else and drop the Destroyers for another Heavy choice or the whatnot. I do like that I can essentially teleport in the Dakkabots, Priests, and Destroyers depending on the game, while positioning the Dominus with them as needed by means of Solar Flare. Still a rather early first draft but I think it's on the right path.
You've got 3 huge inefficiencies before we even talk about unit choices. Firstly, if you're going to spam Breachers then they're begging to take Learnings of the Genetor. To do that, you need to make the Data-hoard detachment have your Warlord, which coincidentally solves your second inefficiency: it saves you a CP in detachment costs.
You're doing both to get the Lucius canticle, but it's not worth it. Increasing a 6++ to a 5++ is only a tiny amount better than adding a 6+++ through Data-hoard. That's the Ironstriders out. The Robots already have a 4++ a lot of the time. The Dunecrawler is okay, but nothing you should bend over backwards to support. So ultimately you're just helping the the Destroyers and Corpuscarii (and sometimes the Robots). That's already not a lot of benefit, and what's worse is you're not getting blanket coverage: the turn you pop that buff, they'll just fire their anti-tank guns at the Breachers to great effect instead.
You'd be best off saving 3CP and putting everything in the Data-hoard Battalion. Just reserve the Corpuscarii instead of Deepstriking them.
Techpriest_ wrote: Just for the fun of it, here's my current intended list, still in the works as I paint up my models, but I think this would be the general idea of the final version of a competitive build:
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment - Forge World: Lucius. 0CP
HQ: Tech Priest Dominus - Warlord, Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber, The Solar Flare, Divination of the Magos.
I might swap the Lucius detachment to something else and drop the Destroyers for another Heavy choice or the whatnot. I do like that I can essentially teleport in the Dakkabots, Priests, and Destroyers depending on the game, while positioning the Dominus with them as needed by means of Solar Flare. Still a rather early first draft but I think it's on the right path.
You've got 3 huge inefficiencies before we even talk about unit choices. Firstly, if you're going to spam Breachers then they're begging to take Learnings of the Genetor. To do that, you need to make the Data-hoard detachment have your Warlord, which coincidentally solves your second inefficiency: it saves you a CP in detachment costs.
You're doing both to get the Lucius canticle, but it's not worth it. Increasing a 6++ to a 5++ is only a tiny amount better than adding a 6+++ through Data-hoard. That's the Ironstriders out. The Robots already have a 4++ a lot of the time. The Dunecrawler is okay, but nothing you should bend over backwards to support. So ultimately you're just helping the the Destroyers and Corpuscarii (and sometimes the Robots). That's already not a lot of benefit, and what's worse is you're not getting blanket coverage: the turn you pop that buff, they'll just fire their anti-tank guns at the Breachers to great effect instead.
You'd be best off saving 3CP and putting everything in the Data-hoard Battalion. Just reserve the Corpuscarii instead of Deepstriking them.
While I think those are valid points, to an extent, a few counter points should be raised.
The first being that the Lucius Canticle actually works with the Bots despite them being in Aegis Protocol. This is something I missed initially as well, but the way the ability is worded is that it modifies the roll, not the save. In that the Bots always have a 5++ but in Aegis Protocol you add +1 to the roll, so with the canticle they actually go to a 4++ and gain +1 to the roll, giving them a 3++ save effectively. It's a bit of hidden utility.
The second thing would be that Legio Teleportarium isn't just for the Priests, but also the Dakkabots and Destroyers which I don't really like taking unless I have something like that. Sometimes you can deploy them on the table, but being able to keep them safe until you're ready to drop them in and get full effect off of them is critical. Strategic Reserves are more limiting in positioning and would be 2CP for the Dakkabots, but only 1 for the Destroyers and Priests after the Power Level updates I believe. There will probably be situations where the Ironstriders can be ported as well. In those cases the Solar Flare also helps as being able to port in bots, root them, then blink the Magos to them for 36 shots would give you 24 hits on average assuming you're not using the Bot-Destroyer stratagem. I originally also had three Bots but dropped it down to fit in other units.
I could see going a few directions with this though, I could drop the Bots and Destroyers, and swap to Mars or Stygies, depending on which artillery or screening units I want to go with. I don't really see going pure Data-Horde though, but maybe making them the Warlord group to save 1CP and give the Breachers the Feel No Pain buff. I could also drop some other picks and go heavier on the Bots for a bigger teleport bomb, maybe the Ironstriders are redundant for example, or the Fusilave isn't as useful.
That's true about the Bots getting to 3++. My point still stands that whenever you use the canticle, its recipients aren't threatening enough to warrant your opponent shoot at them anyway. Your opponent is already incentivized to shoot at your Breachers, since they're the thing that's going to win the game.
The way to think about it is Magos exploding 6s is essentially +1 to hit. Genetor's 5++ FnP is essentially +1 wound on the Breachers. If you're running Breacher spam, then your game plan is necessarily to wade into the midfield and sit on objectives. You need to be buffing some serious firepower before the Magos buff outperforms Genetor in these lists.
You're probably right, and looking at the data it does confirm that most who have placed with Breacher Spam did go for Learnings. That being said I do want to try this and refine it from that point.
Maybe I will ultimately go with Data-Horde main and Stygies for artillery support units, dumping the priests and bots. Then again I could also cut down the Breachers to three squads in a Patrol and make the Lucias more prevalent by taking on more bots and priests. There are a few ways of going forward after testing.
If you are doing Lucius, bring Destroyers, not Breachers. You can bring a Malleus Inquisitor to give your Destroyers 5++, which Lucius bumps to 4++. This is a very respectable save.
I also personally think that if you are running Lucius, you need to run 50% of your army as assault and the other 50% as a giant deep strike bomb.
U02dah4 wrote: I'm trying with an IK list with a Raider escort- what do we think are the best forgeworld options for raiders?
If it's just pure Raiders, Metalica. Metalica dogma lets you advance and shoot without penalty. Metalica Canticle gives you -1 to hit within 9" (for both fighting and shooting).
U02dah4 wrote: I'm trying with an IK list with a Raider escort- what do we think are the best forgeworld options for raiders?
If it's just pure Raiders, Metalica. Metalica dogma lets you advance and shoot without penalty. Metalica Canticle gives you -1 to hit within 9" (for both fighting and shooting).
Or the custom expansionist accelerated actuators and rugged explorers, which gives you the same ignoring of advance for assault weapons but also gives you an additional -1 ap in melee if you charge or are charged.
Yeah, I run that Explorators dogma and I'll vouch for it. You can't get the canticle, since a Knight needs to be your Warlord. If you don't absolutely need a Holy Order trait or Forgeworld canticle (usually because you're allied and both affect fewer models), then the custom Forgeworld dogmas can often be stronger.
For Raiders specifically, the AP-1 doesn't make them a good melee unit, but it does make them a great bully. They're much faster at killing random Guardsmen squads on objectives.
In tournament news, it looks like AdMech is suddenly placing top 4 all over the place. Pretty much everybody's got a core of Breachers and Raiders with a couple Dunecrawlers, Bots, or Disintegrators. Interestingly, nobody's gone in on Ironstriders yet.
Surprisingly, Jason McKenzie’s 4th Place at Red Rock looks like a conventional Mars castle.
Skorpius Disintegrator [8 PL, 150pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon [20pts], Broad Spectrum Data-tether, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber [15pts], Disruptor Missile Launcher
++ Total: [102 PL, 8CP, 1,998pts] ++
He went with Magos over Genetor, and only 9 Breachers. I suppose those Breachers and 15 Raiders is still 72 wounds to remove in the midfield. And that's a lot of tough vehicles to remove in the backfield.
Pretty much everybody's got a core of Breachers and Raiders with a couple Dunecrawlers, Bots, or Disintegrators. Interestingly, nobody's gone in on Ironstriders yet.
yeah i dont think we've seen a top placing running the 5-6 auto chickens unless im wrong. The 5-1 list at iron halo had 3 lascannon ones and he said they were good for him.
It looks like the very first Robot list I made this edition. Only I didn't have Raiders at the time, and so I was still using Hoplites in Boats.
Interesting how it adds a Patrol detachment for extra tanks instead of going with the Ballistarii.
Also, Chorister Technis instead of Daedalosus? Weird.
I have found that many of the top lists don't really invest as much in melee. Instead, they seem to be investing in either Breachers that are difficult to surround as a group or Raiders, which are okay in combat and even better at avoiding being charged.
I've got a game planned on Saturday, and I'm thinking going with a more agressive list than usual. I don't own Raiders or Duneriders or Hoplites so it'll be agressive vehicles
The idea is to have the Manipulus, Dragoons, Robots and Datasmith all together, boost their speed, and reroll charges with the Magos trait. Depending on the disposition of the enemy army and other details I'll probably start with the Lucius Canticle turn 1 to have 3++ Robots and 5++ Dragoons with -1 to be hit right in the middle of the board to block the access to objectives early on with the sheer size of the bases. The Datasmith is there to try and keep the Robots alive longer, with 1CP I can give 2-5 wounds back. Following them will be a few squads of Vanguards to secure the objectives for turn 2.
On the other side of the board I'll have my firing line with the Dominus, Daedalosus, Enginseer, Ironstriders and Onagers to eliminate threats from a distance. With the +1 to hit from Daedalosus and the reroll 1s from the Dominus it's essentially the same results as Cawl's rerolls. The rest of the Vanguards will screen and hold objectives on my side of the board.
I chose Chorister Technis because I'll want to have the Lucius Canticle up as often as I can. 4++ Onagers, 3++ Robots, and 5++ Ironstriders/Dragoons will be tough to crack. With the ignore AP-1 trait and a 5++ even Vanguards should hold their own respectably.
I'm thinking about dropping the Rangers entirely as well as a few elements to include an Assassin, either an Eversor or Callidus. I also own a Culexus but while it's a very cool model it rarely was useful. Now that for 2CP we can choose during deployment I'm considering this option, as I don't know which army I'll face. An Eversor to jump into the fray and tank a while (he can have a 4+++ on top of his 4++) while killing infantry sounds appealing.
Aaranis wrote: I've got a game planned on Saturday, and I'm thinking going with a more agressive list than usual. I don't own Raiders or Duneriders or Hoplites so it'll be agressive vehicles
The idea is to have the Manipulus, Dragoons, Robots and Datasmith all together, boost their speed, and reroll charges with the Magos trait. Depending on the disposition of the enemy army and other details I'll probably start with the Lucius Canticle turn 1 to have 3++ Robots and 5++ Dragoons with -1 to be hit right in the middle of the board to block the access to objectives early on with the sheer size of the bases. The Datasmith is there to try and keep the Robots alive longer, with 1CP I can give 2-5 wounds back. Following them will be a few squads of Vanguards to secure the objectives for turn 2.
On the other side of the board I'll have my firing line with the Dominus, Daedalosus, Enginseer, Ironstriders and Onagers to eliminate threats from a distance. With the +1 to hit from Daedalosus and the reroll 1s from the Dominus it's essentially the same results as Cawl's rerolls. The rest of the Vanguards will screen and hold objectives on my side of the board.
I chose Chorister Technis because I'll want to have the Lucius Canticle up as often as I can. 4++ Onagers, 3++ Robots, and 5++ Ironstriders/Dragoons will be tough to crack. With the ignore AP-1 trait and a 5++ even Vanguards should hold their own respectably.
I'm thinking about dropping the Rangers entirely as well as a few elements to include an Assassin, either an Eversor or Callidus. I also own a Culexus but while it's a very cool model it rarely was useful. Now that for 2CP we can choose during deployment I'm considering this option, as I don't know which army I'll face. An Eversor to jump into the fray and tank a while (he can have a 4+++ on top of his 4++) while killing infantry sounds appealing.
Off the bat, you've got 4 HQ choices and only 3 slots. Within that, your Manipulus needs to be marked as the Warlord to take Magos (only because the FAQ specifically says so).
The math on Chorister just isn't good. You've got a 31.11% chance to hit your target canticle. If you choose the Lucius canticle one turn, choose no other canticles, and re-roll exclusively for Lucius, then you've still only got an 78% chance to hit Lucius once over 4 turns. If you're already spending a CP for Chorister, then just spend one more CP and choose Lucius when you need it.
The Datasmith isn't any better at repairing Robots than the Manipulus. Once the Robots in range to switch from Aegis to Conqueror, they'll probably keep fighting and won't need to switch back. I say just drop the Data-smith.
I also don't think Daedalosus will get much use in the backfield. That 24" range on his buff is going to be a pretty tight leash, especially if you want to target your opponent's backfield. Same thing with Enginseer, he's not really contributing. I'd also switch the Dominus' relic to Raiment of the Technomartyr. You don't have anything to stop charges into your backline, but the Raiment makes the Ironstriders' cognis overwatch pretty nasty. Much more useful than 0.25 extra wounds repaired. On that note, you should combine your Ironstriders into a 6 man unit so you get more value out of applied stratagems. If you dislike the coherency rules, then drop an autocannon Strider for a unit of 5.
The 5 Rangers probably aren't going to do much since you have 2 Dunecrawlers to camp objectives. With those points saved, it's probably easiest to add more Vanguard and special weapons. I don't know what models you have available. You could probably stand to bring more Dragoons.
Yeah I felt something was wrong with the number of HQ, for some reason I confused it with the Brigade slots I guess. Yes Daedalosus won't be useful for long range shooting but I expect things to get in my face pretty quick, so I thought it would be nice to have, he's not that expensive and the d3 MWs he can throw once a game saved me the other day.
Huh I thought it was the other way for the Magos trait, it makes it less appealing to have my WL mid-field then. However as Slay the Warlord is a choice to pick now I'm less concerned about losing him.
Well I like those chances to get the Canticle I want to be honest, it's better than having to spend 2CP each turn to change them I think. This is a really experimental list so it's no biggie if things don't work
The Datasmith is a fighter that surprised me before with his Powerfist, and can heal the Kastelans while the Manipulus heals the Dragoons. I agree he's not a competitive pick but that's 1CP saved for the protocols and I like the flexibility it gives me, sometimes they last quite long in game depending on the army I face so being able to shoot later is good.
Good advice with the Raiment, it's sensible. I usually screen with a line or two of Vanguards depending on the deployment and try to stall the chargers long enough to shoot them afterwards. Given that we now can shoot in melee with Vehicles I'm not too scared about them getting engaged. Either they're destroyed on the charge or either the charging unit gets blasted at point blank. I'm a big fan of the repair twice stratagem and the Autocaduceus allows me usually to enhance a bad roll to give the vehicle a true repair. I might even use the Necromechanic trait to repair even more, I need my vehicles to last in this list.
Agree on the Rangers, hence why I wanted to change that. I like 2 units of snipers with Omnispex but I need more presence on the field so I'll probably swap for a 6th unit of Vanguards. Model-wise I can do 6x5 with 3 additional plasmas. I don't have more Dragoons and the Ironstriders are all I have too.
This is my problem with list building at 2000 pts, if I'm doing anything else than Mars I start to be short on models and the list loses focus. Other than what's in the list I got one more Onager, 3 Dakkastelans, 2x5 Infiltrators (one unit swords the other tasers), 5 Fulgurites, more Rangers, Cawl. I really need to buy myself two Start Collecting to get two transports and build Hoplites.
Aaranis wrote: Well I like those chances to get the Canticle I want to be honest, it's better than having to spend 2CP each turn to change them I think. This is a really experimental list so it's no biggie if things don't work
I'm a big fan of the repair twice stratagem and the Autocaduceus allows me usually to enhance a bad roll to give the vehicle a true repair. I might even use the Necromechanic trait to repair even more, I need my vehicles to last in this list.
This is my problem with list building at 2000 pts, if I'm doing anything else than Mars I start to be short on models and the list loses focus. Other than what's in the list I got one more Onager, 3 Dakkastelans, 2x5 Infiltrators (one unit swords the other tasers), 5 Fulgurites, more Rangers, Cawl. I really need to buy myself two Start Collecting to get two transports and build Hoplites.
Any opinion on Assassins ?
For the Canticles, you don't even need Lucius active every turn and Divine Chorus can only be used once. You can't know when (or even if) Chorister will give you Lucius, so it might proc on turn 5 when nothing matters. You'll get better results if you plan out when to use your canticles. Shroudpsalm is better for every unit except the Bots against anything short of AP3. Lucius is going to be better in very particular situations, so you need to be able to apply it on demand.
Same issue with the Autocaduceus. It makes the low-end roll happen less, but doesn't improve the average very much (2 vs 2.33). The Necromechanic isn't terrible, but there's just so many other better choices first. If you're going to spend a CP for better repairs, though, Necromechanic is an actual improvement unlike Autocaduceus.
If you've got more bodies, I'd use them. Take 30 Vanguard and another 10-20 Rangers. You need more scoring bodies to follow up with those Bots and Dragoons.
I don't put that much stock in Assassins, but you've got plenty of CP to spare so why not?
People are really big on Lucius for the durability bonus from the Canticle, but honestly, being able to deep strike big bomb units and teleport your WL to them is still the best reason why you should run them. Especially with the HO WLTs.
Things I have learn from mathing out Lucius:
1. Plasma Destroyers are amazing in Lucius. With a Malleus Inquistor, they have 4++, which makes them just as durable as Breachers in most circumstances.
2. Dakkabots AND Destroyers are even more amazing. Deep strike, hit on 3+, RR1, exploding 6s. Mix of S8 AP3 D2, S5 AP1, and S6 AP2 shots. What else more could you want?
3. The rest of your list should pretty much be Fulgurites in Boats.
Suzuteo wrote: People are really big on Lucius for the durability bonus from the Canticle, but honestly, being able to deep strike big bomb units and teleport your WL to them is still the best reason why you should run them. Especially with the HO WLTs.
Things I have learn from mathing out Lucius:
1. Plasma Destroyers are amazing in Lucius. With a Malleus Inquistor, they have 4++, which makes them just as durable as Breachers in most circumstances.
2. Dakkabots AND Destroyers are even more amazing. Deep strike, hit on 3+, RR1, exploding 6s. Mix of S8 AP3 D2, S5 AP1, and S6 AP2 shots. What else more could you want?
3. The rest of your list should pretty much be Fulgurites in Boats.
Yeah the ability to deepstrike anything we want is big. I used to love my Fistelans in Lucius with the Cybernetica Cohort as I could do 6" charges from Deepstrike and that was really great.
I don't have Kataphrons anymore (and don't plan on having any) however I agree, Plasma Destroyers were always very good.
Uuh this army is giving me a headache. Every edition I lack the models that are the best. You'll see, if I grab Duneriders and Hoplites/more Fulgurites they'll find a way to nerf them. Same for Raiders.
It's less a matter of playing the good units, and more playing your units in the best way you can. Fortunately, our worst units aren't outright bad, merely worse than other options. So you've got a bunch of Vanguard, Ironstriders, Robots, and Dunecrawlers. All of those are really good, you just need to use the rules that compliment them.
Honestly, your Lucius list looks like it would play similarly to my AdMech+Knights. Here's my take on optimizing it:
Sure, if you had the models the list would be improved by 5-10 Raiders, but this isn't at all bad. I think the army could be strong as either Lucius or Mars. 3 Dakkabots, 6 Ironstriders, and a Dunecrawler is plenty of firepower. The Fistellans and Dragoons can clear objectives, the latter are relatively fast and can get board control. The Manipulus is veratile: depending on the match-up, you can speed up the assault units or boost the shooting units, and you can Solar Flare between the two.
30 scoring infantry isn't a lot, but you can reserve and teleport them. I broke them into those squads so you could reserve 15 and teleport 10 for 2CP. With the infantry off the table, you just present a lot of T6/7 with a lot of defensive buffs. You could probably score Attrition pretty reliably.
Thanks for the list, I really appreciate the advice. I had written another list yesterday, I spent a bit of time hesitating between a plain Mars list and a Lucius list but I'll settle on Lucius anyway, I really want to test the durability. However I followed your advice from then and included more infantry, I've never played that much infantry and I think it'll be fun:
I start with 6CP, have 63 models on the table and 142 wounds. I just have to find a relic to use, might go with the Raiment or the +1CP Graia relic.
The strategy is to have a firebase made of the Tech-Priests, Ballistarii and Dakkabots that can move slowly if needed. If it can stay immobile I can boost the range, use Artisan and shoot at +1AP at 27" for the Ballistarii and 21" for the Dakkabots. If the range is right, I'll try to coordinate the Dakkabots with Daedalosus to mitigate the 4+ to Hit, along with the reroll 1s from Dominus.
I have so many infantry that I can safely screen the firebase from most deep-strike attempts, and afford to move a bit up the board if needed and leave some Skitarii to hold my objectives. Those with plasma will go up the board.
The Fistelans are going up the mid-board, followed by the Datasmith, which will activate the Protector Protocol for round 2. The idea being to be a big roadblock with a 4++ or 3++ turn 1, and round two if he wants my objective he'll need to eat twice my Overwatch. It can also act as a killzone of 24" diameter with 8d6 S5 AP-1 shots if he doesn't take care of them first. If the situation doesn't need all that of course I'll just switch to another protocol and see what's needed in the moment. If I need to punch some Gravis, Conqueror will be perfect.
I'll confess I've always been wary/skeptical/paranoid with regards to Reserves, and can't seem to plan around it. I don't like the idea of having important elements arriving later in the game. If they're shooty, it means one round of shooting lost, if they're punchy, it means a 9" charge and having a good landing zone. Also: interception stratagems. Plus the new anti-deepstrike within 12" rules from the whatever Marines. Having less targets on the table also means the opponent have less threat saturation on first turn and will focus fire more surely. I'd love to be able to use Reserves though, I'm just too scared or uninformed to do so.
Yeah, I like that list more. The Datasmith lost a lot of its power without the Cybernetica Cohort, but if you've got a lot of Robots then he makes sense to save multiple CP. I'd even give him Solar Flare to jump between them (or jump on to vacant objectives as usual).
The only thing bugging me about that list is you're spending 2CP to break your troops into minimum sizes. That's not a good return on investment. Fit them all into the Battalion by doing this:
Learning to manage reserves is an important skill to practice. You're right that it's inefficient to take large, important units out of the fight. However, Skitarii squads aren't contributing much damage output. Their only goal is to complete objectives. It's usually going to be safer to walk them on to the board later in the game when there's less firepower, and both players are scrambling to hold objectives with whatever's nearby. That's when fresh ObSec infantry will swing games.
Heavy Support - 500 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 1993 points 11 CP
Every iteration, there are more Raiders. Lol. Pair them with Boats full of Plasma Vanguard to grab objectives. Pretty much impossible to charge and a very flexible mix of combined arms. Daedalosus + Grav Destroyer strike package to paste Marines. Dakkabots to clear hordes, characters, light vehicles. Lots of CP, so Elimination Volley to one's heart's content. I can also burn 4 CP to outflank both the Robots and both Destroyer units, which is a nightmare for many lists to deal with.
Alternatively, I am considering a Patrol of 3x3 Data Hoard Breachers. The interesting thing is that you don't need to put them in an aura bubble or anything, and they still have high volume S6 AP2 DD3 shots. So Cawl can still park next to some Grators and Ballistarii while the Boats and Breachers go into the midboard.
--
As for Lucius, this was the list I settled on for them:
Spoiler:
Lucius Patrol Detachment
HQ - 135 [8] 1x Tech-priest Dominus [5] - Warlord, Learnings of the Genetor, Solar Flare
1x Daedalosus [3]
Agents of the Imperium - 68 [4] 1x Ordo Malleus Inquisitor [4] - Storm Bolter, Power Sword, Psychic Mastery (-1 CP), Blackshroud; Warding Incantation, Castigation
Total: 1998 points [98] 11 CP
Basically, 2x4 Raiders and 2x10 Fulgurites in Boats push aggressively for objectives. Fusilave goes to harass them.
Deep strike in the Dakkabot + Plasmaphron bombs into the midboard, teleport your Dominus to them, and wipe out a huge chunk of your opponent's army. Outflank or footslog the Inquisitor to give the Destroyers 4++ and do targeted Smites. Also got two Denies.
So my game today went really well, I won 72-61 against a thematic Raven Guard list with the Lucius list I posted previously. I went with the Raiment as a relic but it was useless sadly.
His list was, from memory:
Spoiler:
- Shrike (Warlord)
- Captain, Jump pack, the Burning Blade or something along these lines
- Captain Phobos
- Librarian, Jump pack
- Phobos Lieutenant, with relic sniper bolter (don't know the name)
- 3x5 Infiltrators
- 2x5 Incursors (not sure about the exact number of these two units)
- 8 Hellblasters
- 3x3 Eliminators
- 2 Invictors with flamers
His list is themed around snipers and character elimination, with few anti-tank besides the relic Captain, Hellblasters and the Invictors in CC. The strategy being charging T1 with Shrike and the Captain, Shrike preventing Overwatch and the Captain doing the heavy work, and hold my lines while killing my characters this way.
As secondaries he had Assassinate (had 4 characters), Deploy Scramblers and Linebreaker. Mine were Raise the Banners, Assassinate (he had 5 Characters), and While We Stand on my 3 Dakkastelans.
I didn't get first turn (as usual, just three times in a row after all), popped the Lucius Canticle and he put most of his character shooting at my Dominus but he tanked EVERYTHING like a boss (4++ is good, friends). He charged his two Invictors at my Fistelans, charged Shrike + Captain in the middle of my castle, engaging 5 Vanguards, 3 Dakkastelans, my Dominus, my 6 Ironstriders with Shrike, and the Captain engaged the Manipulus and the Ironstriders too. However Shrike failed horribly and just did 2 wounds to my Dominus thanks to the 4++ again. The Captain had more luck and killed the Manipulus. In return I kill Shrike. He also charged two of my far Vanguards with an Infiltrator squad and killed a few. I used 2 CP to make the Fistelans fight first and down an Invictor to 4 wounds. In return he kills one of my Bots, but at my second phase I bring the wounded one to 1 wound and hurt the other one.
Come my turn I use the Artisan disengage vehicle aura and disengage from the remaining Captain. I disengage with the Fistelans and the Vanguards too. Daedalosus deals his 3 MWs to the captain and I finish him in shooting with Vanguards. The Ballistarii move to shoot the charging Infiltrators and kill them alongside a few other models, including the Librarian. My Datasmith shoots down one the dying Invictor, but while I finish the other with the Arc Rifles, he explodes and kills 22 Skitarii by himself, annihilating my left flank infantry. A bit ridiculous to have d6 MWs but whatever.
His turn 2 (I roll and get Lucius Canticle again) he brings the Hellblasters on my left flank, as well as 3 Infiltrators and the Lieutenant from deep strike and kills my Datasmith and Dominus as well as a Dakkastelan and 3 wounds off another. He focuses on shooting down the rest of my Vanguards for the rest of the game to deny me Raise the Banners. I charge the Hellblasters with the Fistelans and kill them all. My Ironstriders continue whittling down his infantry and move up towards his side of the board.
Turn 3 he tries to hide his Lieutenant from the Fistelans but fails at keeping a safe distance from the wall without noticing. He deploys Scramblers with the Infiltrators to score a few points. My turn I charge the Lieutenant and the Infiltrators above him and kill them all in their two fight phases.
Afterwards it's essentially just me catching up with points and finishing off what remains of his army. I only have the Robots, Daedalosus and the 6 Ironstriders left alive most of the time. I manage to hold two objectives with the Ironstriders at some point and this gives me the edge I needed to win. He finishes the game with just his Phobos Captain, and 9 Marines alive. I end with 9 wounds of Dakkabots, 3 Fistelans, a 1W Daedalosus and 5 Ironstriders.
I think the list works quite well. The resilience from the Canticle made me win, no doubt about that. The explosion from the Invictor was a devastating blow and almost cost me the victory after thought. The Fistelans were incredible, killing everything they touch. The Dakkabots weren't overly performing but their shots were still nice to have to deal with models in cover. I lost their buffers early on so they couldn't perform well, often shooting at 4+ or 5+. But they drew fire and I know in another matchup they could prove really great too.
I'll try the same list next time I play at 2000 pts, I think it did great overall.
Grav went to flat 2 against 3+ in the marine book so most likely ours will follow. Averages out to the same but less variance. Another interesting thing is it seems all the marine anti air guns lost the -1 to hit against non fly. Could be big for icarus array
Khornatedemon wrote: Grav went to flat 2 against 3+ in the marine book so most likely ours will follow. Averages out to the same but less variance. Another interesting thing is it seems all the marine anti air guns lost the -1 to hit against non fly. Could be big for icarus array
Very promising.
What is the best way to bring an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor? I just realized that they can Scout deploy, and now I am salivating at the idea of forward deploying an anti-Psyker model.
The heaviest setup I could think of:
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in Terminator Armour
-Force Axe
-Stormbolter
-Blackshroud
-WLT: Psychic Mastery
-Alpha-class Psyker
Knows three powers, can cast twice, deny thrice. Tough as nails profile. Ideal melee weapon for fighting T6 3+/5++.
Khornatedemon wrote: Grav went to flat 2 against 3+ in the marine book so most likely ours will follow. Averages out to the same but less variance. Another interesting thing is it seems all the marine anti air guns lost the -1 to hit against non fly. Could be big for icarus array
Weren't they also changed to specifically only get the +1 against Aircraft?
Khornatedemon wrote: Grav went to flat 2 against 3+ in the marine book so most likely ours will follow. Averages out to the same but less variance. Another interesting thing is it seems all the marine anti air guns lost the -1 to hit against non fly. Could be big for icarus array
Weren't they also changed to specifically only get the +1 against Aircraft?
yes they were. the loss of the -1 against ground targets was most likely the more beneficial change, especially with the marine grav tanks losing fly.
Transport - 200 1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
Elite - 340 10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Fast Attack - 453 5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 450 1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1986 points 12 CP
Ballistarii and Grator firebase. Graia Vanguard to hold objectives, screen deep strike and outflank, and block Psykers in a pinch.
2 CP to infiltrate Boat Priests with the Raiders. Gotta get those objectives. Nilsson brought a Manipulus with Prime Hermeticon, but I chose to sacrifice some of my fighting for more shooting variety.
2 CP to outflank Ryzaphrons + Daedalosus. Plasma Specialists is still some crazy good math. Instantly melt tanks, Gravis, Breachers, you name it.
Thinking about taking one Ferrumite in this list. I have found the math of a single gun with +1 to hit and ignore cover to be excellent.
Okay, so he puts 10 Priests in a Dunerider, 9 in another alongside the Manipulus, and 7 Priests + 5 Stygies Vanguards in the Termite I suppose. I guess he picks While We Stand on the 3 Belleros and hangs them in his backline, safely hidden. The 2x3 Raiders deploy far away to annoy the frontlines for a turn I guess, allowing for the Autocannons to shoot at the priority targets while staying mobile with the Dominus.
The random Graia unit is there for psychic denying but I don't see it working very well, unless he hides it somehow, but that's not a given. It seems really random, I'd just shoot them if I really needed to pass a psy, and even then it's a 4+ strat. Weird but he has his reasons.
I can see his list getting countered hard by heavy armoured lists, he has max AP-1/-2 or -3 at half range for the Belleros but that's within 18". If his Priests get deleted or blocked somehow I wonder how he holds his objectives.
Maybe someone can shed some light on how this plays ? I don't even understand why he picks Mars at all, he can't use any dogmas, no double canticle, no EW canticle, and he doesn't play Cawl. Playing pure Stygies would help him I feel.
He said the Graia Vanguard actually won him a game by denying a Harlequin move.
He uses Mars for the +1S to Heavy weapons, which makes the Belleros and Autocannons much more dangerous than they otherwise would be. He also uses Wrath of Mars on the Ballistarii. (He picks Canticles every turn.)
I noticed the weakness to armor as well. The list I posted above brings 6x Ryzaphron to address the problem. I also do not think it is worthwhile to bring so many units of Fulgurites, as you may run out of easy fodder to feed to them to get their 3++.
Techpriest_ wrote: How did he get the random Graia unit in the mix? I thought you had to take a detachment to introduce another forgeworld, or did I just miss something?
I believe under the current codex rules, taking multiple Forgeworlds just means you lose the dogma. You can still get the stratagem and canticle.
Suzuteo wrote: He said the Graia Vanguard actually won him a game by denying a Harlequin move.
He uses Mars for the +1S to Heavy weapons, which makes the Belleros and Autocannons much more dangerous than they otherwise would be. He also uses Wrath of Mars on the Ballistarii. (He picks Canticles every turn.)
I noticed the weakness to armor as well. The list I posted above brings 6x Ryzaphron to address the problem. I also do not think it is worthwhile to bring so many units of Fulgurites, as you may run out of easy fodder to feed to them to get their 3++.
The victory due to the deny was more a lucky strike I think but I'm happy it happened anyway ! Always fun to have 5 Skitarii deny a powerful xeno psyker just because they don't want any of this eldritch nonsense.
Ah, I thought you had to be monofaction to replace a canticle, turns out you don't. Then yeah I can see the Belleros and Autocannons working. I don't have the book near me, does the custom canticle work for all your army even if it's mixed or not ? Having Mars Dakkabots with a 4++ from Lucius looks tasty.
They used to be filling up my Knight army (1 Castellan 2 crusader 2 Helverins)
And now I want to get some more stuff for the Admech to be more flexible when writing my lists with the final goal to someday be able to field mono Admech. But for a start the focus would be on supporting the knights.
I have absolutely no idea what would be a good/useful start to purchase the budget for now would be ~200€ if that's of any help.
They used to be filling up my Knight army (1 Castellan 2 crusader 2 Helverins)
And now I want to get some more stuff for the Admech to be more flexible when writing my lists with the final goal to someday be able to field mono Admech. But for a start the focus would be on supporting the knights.
I have absolutely no idea what would be a good/useful start to purchase the budget for now would be ~200€ if that's of any help.
Thanks in advance
Basically take lots of serberys raiders - fast, relatively durable, screening force, can pre-game move, fall back from charges, act as snipers, and probably have enough attacks (in large groups) to bully small squads (eg remenents of a guard squad), all for only 16ppm
Raiders cover pretty much everything the Knights are bad at. They can screen against charging enemies, provide board control through scout move and speed, and provide cheap bodies to hold objectives. They are ludicrously $ expensive, so I'd find ways to convert them instead.
Dunecrawlers are just more efficient than Helverins for camping backfield objectives. They've got slightly worse firepower, but the same defenses for 2/3s the price.
Infiltrators are not good, but you can make use of a single squad to pop in and help complete Shadow Operations secondaries.
You can't go wrong with a horde of Vanguard in Duneriders either. They just have to drive up on to objectives alongside the Knights, and then dump out ObSec if anything comes close. If I were you, I'd get two Start Collecting boxes to round out the core of your army. Then you can proxy some different units and see which direction you want to take your army.
Aaranis wrote: I don't have the book near me, does the custom canticle work for all your army even if it's mixed or not ? Having Mars Dakkabots with a 4++ from Lucius looks tasty.
They changed the FW Canticles to be locked to the FW keyword. So Mars Canticle only affects Mars models.
Fortunately, unless you are Mars, you can get away with just picking Canticles the entire time. Spend 2 CP if you need to. (It's an armywide buff, so it's worth it.)
So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?
Aaranis wrote: So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?
Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.
Basically take lots of serberys raiders - fast, relatively durable, screening force, can pre-game move, fall back from charges, act as snipers, and probably have enough attacks (in large groups) to bully small squads (eg remenents of a guard squad), all for only 16ppm
I was afraid lots of people would mention raiders and I actually do like the unit but that points for money ratio makes me wanna vomit even when ordering via Wayland games.
I have 21 of them. Currently in various forms of assembly. I really want to get another 2 boxes.
Money wise they are a rip off. I’m also slightly concerned that they are going to be on the receiving end of the nerf hammer soon. I’ve seen some people in tournaments playing custodes/sisters/marines and souping in outriders of Admech doggos....
That’s when you know the nerfs are coming. It was the same with the disintegrators. As soon as the world and his wife started souping in 3x belaros scorps I knew their goose was cooked haha
Aaranis wrote: So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?
Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.
Uuh the D2 Heavy Bolter ? The Multi-melta with two shots and d6+2 at half-range ? Cognis flamer at 12" ? I don't see any downsides so far. I really think they're something we can do with Servitors now.
not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.
xerxeskingofking wrote: not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.
Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.
Aaranis wrote: So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?
Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.
Uuh the D2 Heavy Bolter ? The Multi-melta with two shots and d6+2 at half-range ? Cognis flamer at 12" ? I don't see any downsides so far. I really think they're something we can do with Servitors now.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can tell they haven't actually faq'd those weapons for admech. (not seeing an updated faq for the admech codex, and the engine war one doesn't list the weapon changes)
xerxeskingofking wrote: not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.
Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.
Going from S4 to 5 is an over-all 34% damage buff against T4 and a 50% buff against T5. That's roughly 0.75 wounds per Sword Infiltrator against T4 3+ (plus 0.33 from the carbine), and 0.55 against T5 3+ (+0.22 from carbine). Against the same targets, each taser gets 0.44 wounds and each blasters get 0.36. Even buffed, that's really nothing to write home about.
Worse than the middling damage, the problem is always going to be that deepstriking assault units are terrible without charge buffs. They've got a ~28% chance to make a 9" charge, a 48% chance to succeed with a Command Re-roll. The cost of failure is stranding a 200 point unit in the open.
That's always going to be the bottleneck for Infiltrators: they pay a lot of extra points for Deepstrike and melee weapons, but can't use them together to recoup that value. They're just unreliable. Sterylizers are a better Deepstriking unit because more of their power is in reliable shooting attacks, and they still have competent melee as a backup.
Looks like they havnt put it up on the FAQ page for some reason...
That link i got through the news article where they linked all the faqs. But yeah i dont see it on the FAQ page itself weirdly enough
Vineheart01 wrote: Looks like they havnt put it up on the FAQ page for some reason...
That link i got through the news article where they linked all the faqs. But yeah i dont see it on the FAQ page itself weirdly enough
most likely, the left hand isnt speaking to the right, or in this case whoever is publishing the FAQs isnt speaking to whoever maintains the FAQ page of the website....
Going from S4 to 5 is an over-all 34% damage buff against T4 and a 50% buff against T5. That's roughly 0.75 wounds per Sword Infiltrator against T4 3+ (plus 0.33 from the carbine), and 0.55 against T5 3+ (+0.22 from carbine). Against the same targets, each taser gets 0.44 wounds and each blasters get 0.36. Even buffed, that's really nothing to write home about.
Worse than the middling damage, the problem is always going to be that deepstriking assault units are terrible without charge buffs. They've got a ~28% chance to make a 9" charge, a 48% chance to succeed with a Command Re-roll. The cost of failure is stranding a 200 point unit in the open.
yhea, like i said, a buff, but not a major change. I cant see them introducing a "charge form deepstrike" buff/strat for us, if only to stop to the melee-focused armies moaning about us having it and them not (though i;m sure some of them can, i wont pretend to know every factions tricks).
Lots of factions have ways to make Deepstrike charges more reliable, typically by adding inches to their charge move or roll 3d6. Sometime it's specific to actually charging off a Deesptrike like Blood Angel's Descent of Angels (I believe that's the 3d6 one). Otherwise things like Ork Evil Sunz kultur add an inch and can re-roll either die, making their charge chance more like 75% at 9".
Infiltrators still don't have a unique stratagem, so maybe a 3d6 charge would be fine. It'd give them an actual identity since they got outclassed by the Pteraxii.
fair enough. it doesnt help that the ruststalkers got a "flanking deepstrike" strat either, which really does rob the infiltrators of pretty much Their One Trick, by the alternate build of the same boxset, no less!
they might get such a charge bonus strat, but i cant see that happening without a points increase, and i honestly think it'd be still be a hard sell to take them over electro priest for a melee attack unit ( Though i might get a box just because i like the minis)
Aaranis wrote: So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?
Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.
Uuh the D2 Heavy Bolter ? The Multi-melta with two shots and d6+2 at half-range ? Cognis flamer at 12" ? I don't see any downsides so far. I really think they're something we can do with Servitors now.
Yes same as before take them with no guns and stick them on an objective. The gunned varients just underperform in comparison to equivalent units in other armies.
Sure its a boost on the flamer except unless your deep striking your still better with the ramgebof the alternative
xerxeskingofking wrote: not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.
Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.
The main reason to take them is still the mars strat and that means you want the number of shots to be 5 not 3. Sure its a nice buff but it isnt enough to justify them
Aaranis wrote: So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?
Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.
Uuh the D2 Heavy Bolter ? The Multi-melta with two shots and d6+2 at half-range ? Cognis flamer at 12" ? I don't see any downsides so far. I really think they're something we can do with Servitors now.
Yes same as before take them with no guns and stick them on an objective. The gunned varients just underperform in comparison to equivalent units in other armies.
Sure its a boost on the flamer except unless your deep striking your still better with the ramgebof the alternative
xerxeskingofking wrote: not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.
Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.
The main reason to take them is still the mars strat and that means you want the number of shots to be 5 not 3. Sure its a nice buff but it isnt enough to justify them
Someone gets it
They're basically incidental upgrades. Servitors will never be worth anything other than fodder and Infiltrators need to be the same price as ruststalkers to be worth taking over Sterylizors. The flamer increase is the only tangible increase and what SHOULD have happened is some actual updates to equivalent army weapons like they said they were going to do. Instead of what they've now said which is "Sorry you're SOL until your codex drops, just take it in the ass from marines until then"
What are Sulferhounds like? Worth using? I want to use some of these horse riding bros but I don’t really know what to use them for, same as the new winged bros. Flechette bros or flamers? I fight lots of power armour btw.
Tiberius501 wrote: What are Sulferhounds like? Worth using? I want to use some of these horse riding bros but I don’t really know what to use them for, same as the new winged bros. Flechette bros or flamers? I fight lots of power armour btw.
I love Sulphurhounds too model-wise, but sadly they underperform currently compared to their Serberys Raiders alternative. The Raiders have more utility overall, their strong point being able to have a pre-game move, giving them a great speed to go directly into enemy lines. Their weapons are not great, not bad, but can target characters. I'll give you a bit of maths to show their effectiveness, but they're certainly not beatsticks and against MEQ they're not great. Sulphurhounds are great against GEQ though.
5 Sulphurhounds shooting (all pistols, Alpha and flamers):
vs T3 5+: 8,05 wounds
vs T4 3+: 3,83 wounds
5 Sulphurhounds charging (Arc maul + claws):
vs T3 5+: 4,57 wounds
vs T4 3+: 1,88 wounds
5 Raiders shooting:
vs T3 5+: 4,26 wounds
vs T4 3+: 2,4 wounds
5 Raiders charging (6 Sabre attacks + claws):
vs T3 5+: 3,88 wounds
vs T4 3+: 1,63 wounds
You can see the Sulphurhounds are more effective, but due to being more expensive in points, they're less efficient and the Raiders have a slight advantage, combined with the perks I've said earlier.
However Sulphurhounds have their uses too, they ignore cover with all their ranged weapons, auto-hit with flamers (maybe they'll get boosted to 12" with our codex ?), and they give the Irradiation debuff which can be really useful to set up a charge by a more specialised assault unit. For example, combining a charge of Sulphurhounds with Hoplites on Marines will have the Hoplites wound them on 2+ (S6 vs T3).
For the Pteraxii I don't see any use for the Skystalkers save maybe replacing the Infiltrator + Wrath of Mars deep-strike combo due to their number of shots. Sterylizors on the other hand are a great unit offensively, and have surprisingly good stats on the charge. Given they also can lock a unit of Infantry in melee they can be really useful.
5 Sterylizors shooting:
vs T3 5+: 8,89 wounds
vs T4 3+: 3,87 wounds
5 Sterylizors charging (Taser + claws):
vs T3 5+: 6,66 wounds
vs T4 3+: 3,56 wounds
Their downside being they're quite flimsy and freaking huge at the same time, making it hard to place them and hide them.
yeah sulfurs suffer pretty badly due to not having the pregame move their raider brothers have.
They are technically not an optimal target for big guns, but due to how they work they are usually the first thing flat3 damage guns can hit and better to shoot them than not shoot at all.
I've gotten them to actually attack...once...in like 10 games lol. Every other game they die immediately to the first flat3 damage gun that has range on them.
I want them to work. The one time they got in range of infantry they just melted them, it was glorious...and immediately died afterwords lol. Due to how easily and efficiently they jsut get plastered they arent even worth their points in a distraction tactic.
Thanks guys, good to know. I’m trying to build a crusade roster, and the Sterylizors suit the roster fluff wise, so nice to know they’re also good at what they do.
Real shame about Sulpherhounds though, they look freaking awesome.
If you are going to spam Serberys, and I mean really spam, then 3x9 Raiders and 3x9 Hounds is actually quite scary mathwise.
I think all of the weapons are a wash for us.
Sword Infiltrators are better than Taser Infiltrators, but both are too expensive and lack the charge bonuses to make good bombs.
Servitors still suck. Data-Hoard Breachers are better in every way.
Plasma is safer against Dense terrain and anything with minus to hit. It is less safe to drop a bunch of them with a Daedalosus to melt things. (I actually think Plasma Culverins are going to see MORE use though. Because we did not get a buff to Heavy Grav, and we need a way to erase the torrent of Gravis spam that is incoming.)
Yeah I can’t say they really got me excited. But, after seeing the Necron and Marine books, I’m pretty keen for our 9th book.
I’m also tempted to use Hoplites in transports, they seem like a fun unit. Are they getting changed at all? I know there’s a forge world book coming at some stage (I assume we don’t really know when).
Nobody knows. Hoplites are pretty solid though if you want a defensive infantry pick. That said, we're at the point in the meta where you want mortal wounds, and Fulgurites fill this role well.
Transport - 200 1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
Elite - 340 10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Fast Attack - 453 5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 450 1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1998 points 12 CP
Raiders and Boats blitzed right out the gate and blocked out the midboard objectives before he could move (9" infiltration move, then 12+D6" advance). Autocannons with Wrath of Mars downed his Vulture. Grators did some damage to a Chimera. On his turn, the Chimeras were move-blocked by Raiders. All he could do was shoot them. They died well. Manticore blew up a Ballistarii. Next turn, the hammer came down really hard. Daeda+Destroyers outflanked and melted his Manticore and a second tank. Ballistarii and Grators popped two of his transports. I thinned the Guardsmen with Stubbers and gobbled them up in fighting for the save bonus. Pretty much nothing he could do after that; he was penned in his deployment by 19 Fulgurites. We basically traded firebase units; he killed my Destroyers and plinked uselessly at the Fulgurites; I killed his Chimeras one by one with the Ballistarii and Grators, then got my Fulgurites stuck in.
In retrospect, the game was really decided on turn one by the Raiders and Boats. The list is strong because Stygies stratagem and Mars Canticle are strong. Ryza Destroyers are really glassy. Not sure how to feel about them. They feel a bit win more. Any thoughts on what to do with 270 spare points?
Transport - 200 1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
Elite - 340 10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Fast Attack - 453 5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 450 1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1998 points 12 CP
Raiders and Boats blitzed right out the gate and blocked out the midboard objectives before he could move (9" infiltration move, then 12+D6" advance). Autocannons with Wrath of Mars downed his Vulture. Grators did some damage to a Chimera. On his turn, the Chimeras were move-blocked by Raiders. All he could do was shoot them. They died well. Manticore blew up a Ballistarii. Next turn, the hammer came down really hard. Daeda+Destroyers outflanked and melted his Manticore and a second tank. Ballistarii and Grators popped two of his transports. I thinned the Guardsmen with Stubbers and gobbled them up in fighting for the save bonus. Pretty much nothing he could do after that; he was penned in his deployment by 19 Fulgurites. We basically traded firebase units; he killed my Destroyers and plinked uselessly at the Fulgurites; I killed his Chimeras one by one with the Ballistarii and Grators, then got my Fulgurites stuck in.
In retrospect, the game was really decided on turn one by the Raiders and Boats. The list is strong because Stygies stratagem and Mars Canticle are strong. Ryza Destroyers are really glassy. Not sure how to feel about them. They feel a bit win more. Any thoughts on what to do with 270 spare points?
That's so gamey and i hate it, but can't argue with the results lol.
maybe a couple of Fusilaves instead of the destroyers? need no support.
Aaranis wrote: How do you think you would have fared with having second turn ?
Well, he would probably be ahead on primaries for the first few rounds because he would be able to get more of his Guardsmen into the midboard. He would probably do more damage to my firebase units too, since his artillery would be able to shoot more, but I think what happened on turn two would merely happen on turn three.
Also, in case you were wondering what he was running:
Something like that. Basically, ridiculously souped up tanks (his Warlord was unkillable because of the Astropath LOL) with non-LOS artillery and mechanized troops to grab objectives.
He could outflank the Scions for 1 CP. Rest of the army was in Chimeras.
I think the one thing we need to watch for is that Tank Ace Manticore. 2xD6 (rerolling shots) S10 AP3 D3 shots is nuts. He actually said he was going to swap out for 3x Manticore, even if they can't do 3x Tank Ace, they have a great profile against Gravis. His Demo Cannons are great for Gravis too, but they turned out to be overpowered for most other applications, and their short 24"+6" range was unhelpful, as my Ballistarii were just pummeling him from out of range. Fact is, when the midboard is clogged with stuff, tanks do not get to move very much, so 48" range and 12" move with the option to advance helps.
Also, I misremembered; I killed Vulture with Pattern and Doctrina, not Wrath. I just spent 2 CP and forgot.
Now that is a genuinely different list. It looks extremely CP hungry, so the first thing I want to do is fit Monitor Malevolus in there somehow. Probably drop 2 Fulgerites for an Enginseer. What is the CP consumption per turn like in practice?
I think the Ryza Destroyers are going to pay much bigger dividends against Gravis and Custodes, so don't count them out yet.
DarkHound wrote: Now that is a genuinely different list. It looks extremely CP hungry, so the first thing I want to do is fit Monitor Malevolus in there somehow. Probably drop 2 Fulgerites for an Enginseer. What is the CP consumption per turn like in practice?
I think the Ryza Destroyers are going to pay much bigger dividends against Gravis and Custodes, so don't count them out yet.
Just wondering, but someone insisted that you can take Monitor on Daedalosus with the Locum strat because he lacks a specified WLT. Is this correct?
Another option is a Xenos Inquisitor.
You spend 2-4 CP right off the bat; if you can hide the Destroyers, you should. You will spend a furious amount each turn. Probably 3-4 per turn. Dry by turn three.
Pulled my notes out. Reverse-engineering the CP count:
Functionally, Daedalosus cannot take a Warlord trait.
Mechanicum Locus specifies a "<Forge World> Character" can gain a Warlord trait. Daedalosus doesn't have a Forge World, so he can't be chosen. You can choose him as your Warlord to gain any trait. However, only your Warlord can take Holy Order traits (as per arbitrary FAQ). Also, Daedalosus can have Holy Order traits, but they don't work. All their effects specify affecting <Forge World> units, and he doesn't have a corresponding <Forge World>.
So Daedalosus can have Monitor if he's your Warlord and you're not taking a Holy Order trait or a Forge World canticle. (Except in Crusade where he gets a Warlord trait for free.)
With that expenditure, Monitor should be a net +1 or 2 CP by turn 4 depending on the opponent. Most likely net +2CP by turn 5. So is 2 extra CP in the late game worth more than 2 Fulgerites?
Thanks for the clarification. And no, not worth it.
Anyhow, I think maybe this?
Spoiler:
Mixed Battalion Detachment
HQ - 135 1x Mars Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos, Raiment of the Technomartyr
1x Daedalosus
Troop - 360 3x Mars Kataphron Destroyer - 3x Heavy Grav-Cannon, 3x Cognis Flamer
3x Mars Kataphron Destroyer - 3x Heavy Grav-Cannon, 3x Cognis Flamer
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard
Transport - 200 1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
Elite - 340 10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Fast Attack - 453 5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 450 1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Agent of the Imperium - 60 1x Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - Boltgun, Chainsword, Esoteric Lore (-1 CP)
Total: 1998 points 11 CP
I trade in the Ryza Plasma Destroyers for Mars Grav Destroyers, which I can deploy or outflank as necessary. I gain a 5+ CP recycler and have one less thing to spend CP on.
That said... Plasma Culverins are way more versatile than Heavy Grav. If I had Grav in that Guard game, they would not be doing nearly as much.
And I could cut a Graia Vanguard unit and the Cognis Flamers and have 59 extra points to spend. 32 of which should probably go to 2x5 Raiders. That said, the Graia Vanguard are pretty handy for performing actions, baby sitting objectives, and screening out outflank and deep strike. This list also has more Psyker defense for sure; Steel Logic and two denies with Alpha Psyker.
I think the "Super Friends" style of play may have a lot of merit to it as all you give up is the dogma really, but you pick up a lot of options in terms of stratagems. The biggest issue is it becomes incredibly CP taxing, but you're by no means obligated to use all of the abilities.
Obviously the Graia ability is very strong on a couple Vanguard squads, and the Ryza ability is still completely fine. Lucius and Stygies both have different methods of deploying into battle, and even Agrippina can see some use.
I actually started a guide for new players getting Admech recently, and the newest video is about Forge Worlds, but it only covered the top 4. The rest will be covered in the next video including building mixed detachments. If you're interested it can be found here, criticism is always welcome: https://youtu.be/rAqT15ShC1U
Personally, I'm hoping 9th ed codexes do away with mixed detachments entirely, for all armies.
The only reason they exist is because the books have been written so badly or are so inflexible that people feel they need to game the system to fill the gaps. Plus a lot of those forgeworld specific strategms arent all that fluffy anyway and should just be under general availability, save the specific strategms for one off fantastical turning point abilities.
The abilities we get from forgeworld choice are so niche and so narrow minded that you end up needing to pick several to make them relevant to your army as a whole or they're just not worth it.
I'd love for example one of the forgeworlds to give every infantry the radiation debuff and make vanguard and sulphurhounds super irradiated. Every forgeworld bonus should benefit the majority of your army but add further specialisation to key aspects.
The problem I think is that they keep writing these codexes in the space marine mindset that the benefits given would affect such a large number of units when they absolutely dont.
Yeah, I agree with U02dah4. Restrictions are less fun. I think the current system is pretty well balanced in principle (though obviously the Forgeworld rules themselves need an update). There's less opportunity for self-expression and creativity if you restrict the game to only what the designers envision. However, I agree that it's better for game balance (and thus healthier for the game over-all) if there are strong incentives for single faction detachments. Essentially, it's better to give players the opportunity to play whatever they want at a minor disadvantage.
As long as there is a tradeoff, I think it's fine to give people the option to do unconventional builds.
I mean, Mars and Data-hoard+Stygies is still more common than Forgeworld Soup right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Techpriest_ wrote: I think the "Super Friends" style of play may have a lot of merit to it as all you give up is the dogma really, but you pick up a lot of options in terms of stratagems. The biggest issue is it becomes incredibly CP taxing, but you're by no means obligated to use all of the abilities.
Obviously the Graia ability is very strong on a couple Vanguard squads, and the Ryza ability is still completely fine. Lucius and Stygies both have different methods of deploying into battle, and even Agrippina can see some use.
I actually started a guide for new players getting Admech recently, and the newest video is about Forge Worlds, but it only covered the top 4. The rest will be covered in the next video including building mixed detachments. If you're interested it can be found here, criticism is always welcome: https://youtu.be/rAqT15ShC1U
This is a pretty good video. One thing that I would point out though is that the Stygies VIII Canticle is underestimated. It is very useful to fall back and still shoot. Especially if you are spamming Plasma Vanguard. The recent change to plasma actually makes them stronger in this situation.
I respectfully disagree. The only reason this opinion becomes valid is if ignoring the bigger picture doesn't affect the game as a whole. It does. Otherwise, all we're doing is exploiting a bad system because of poor rules writing. We should be advocating for better.
If the rules were flexible we wouldn't have a need for absurd arrangements where members of 3 Forgeworlds within the same detachment is considered acceptable under the guise of it being "unconventional" and "people should be able to play (read: abuse the rules) how they want". It's bad for the game as a whole: Unclear detachments, it makes it overly complex for your opponent to visually know what you can and can't do. Slows the game down. Increases 'paperwork', it's just bad for the game to keep it how it is.
I'm not advocating restrictions for the sake of it, we already have those, I'm advocating structure that currently doesn't exist. The choices we have to make at the moment when building a list are horrible. They're not the choice between being better at one thing and worse at another, they are between having a fundamental ability/construct of the game and not. Not one of them considers our army as a whole, every choice is "make this one unit better" instead of choosing an impactful thematic playstyle. We can already see this is where they're heading in the Necron and SM codexes, Necron Warlords have to be the most senior HQ choice, SM detachments can only include one captain and 2 lieutenants. It's all measured choices to encourage a balanced way of playing. We can already expect our warlord hierarchy to be Cawl > Dominus > Manipulus > Enginseer based on current options.
That's what our codex is missing, structured thematic choices. If they ever want to streamline the way this game plays mixed detachments need to go, they are a necessity borne of how restrictive the current rules are. Nobody chooses to have a mixed detachment because it's fluffy or because it makes any sense at all, it's purely because of how badly the rules interact.
I can see both sides of the argument on this one, as on one hand I like having the ability to mix and match, especially when mixing doesn't create an over powered list. I can also see the argument that it does make things messy and can sometimes be hard to distinguish in a game with so many rules as is.
That being said, in terms of theme and lore, it's not abnormal for forge worlds to mix to some extent. For example, Triplex Phall has several Mars legions that follow their expeditions around and pester them. Luckily for Triplex Phall these Mars legions are often kept occupied with the many threats that Triplex Phall faces from Tyranids to Daemons. During the Heresy a lot of Admech also fled Mars and hid out on Ryza, then fought along side Ryza during the invasion from Dark Mechanicus forces.
More so, I believe in the game Mechanicus most of the tech priests are Mars based but Scaevola is actually a Stygies VIII representative, which is why she tends to be an outcast due to her Xenorite views. So there is precedence for members of different Forge Worlds to join forces, whether out of necessity, mistrust, or mutual benefit.
@Suzuteo: Thanks for the kind words, the reception the series has received so far has really made it worthwhile.
I do agree I may be under valuing the Stygie's canticle as I haven't played around with it much.
Techpriest_ wrote: I can see both sides of the argument on this one, as on one hand I like having the ability to mix and match, especially when mixing doesn't create an over powered list. I can also see the argument that it does make things messy and can sometimes be hard to distinguish in a game with so many rules as is.
That being said, in terms of theme and lore, it's not abnormal for forge worlds to mix to some extent. For example, Triplex Phall has several Mars legions that follow their expeditions around and pester them. Luckily for Triplex Phall these Mars legions are often kept occupied with the many threats that Triplex Phall faces from Tyranids to Daemons. During the Heresy a lot of Admech also fled Mars and hid out on Ryza, then fought along side Ryza during the invasion from Dark Mechanicus forces.
More so, I believe in the game Mechanicus most of the tech priests are Mars based but Scaevola is actually a Stygies VIII representative, which is why she tends to be an outcast due to her Xenorite views. So there is precedence for members of different Forge Worlds to join forces, whether out of necessity, mistrust, or mutual benefit.
@Suzuteo: Thanks for the kind words, the reception the series has received so far has really made it worthwhile.
I do agree I may be under valuing the Stygie's canticle as I haven't played around with it much.
Having multiple Forgeworlds, though I dislike from a personal point of view, I have no objection to and it's perfectly well represented by having multiple detachments. You can clearly show this with different paint schemes etc. and it makes sense to have a Forgeworld specialising in mech infantry and one in Artillery, for example, to work together in a single conflict. But even when forces fight alongside each other it's unlikely a Ryza force would be led by a Stygies Dominus and have a contingency of Mars tanks with a few squads of Lucius robots. Narratively they might end up like that during a large conflict due to combat losses but it would never be planned that way. You can attach any kind of narrative to explain why it might happen but to balance a complex game system with multiple overlapping and interacting rules, simplicity is king. And i'd rather the general rules were written with structure in mind rather than just letting everyone run wild for the sake of a minority narrative.
So as you say you can narrative anything even if you look at material such as the mechanicus computer game you have techpriests from multiple forgeworlds on the same ship. So there's no problem narratively. Common no but if your gonna pick holes based on what common the biggest hole is how many battles in the lore feature identical armies. I'm sorry guilliman I know we have a titan legion on the planet but there's only 2000pts of tanks so they won't fight.
From a mechanics perspective are there benefits yes otherwise people wouldn't do it are there draw backs yes loss of dogma and loss of synergy is any of that a problem no. Its not like mechanicus are winning 80% of games.
So really its preference. However I will always side with the person playing the way they want to and having fun over the person wineing that people are having fun the wrong way.
I do recognise that no one does this to be fluffy. However no one takes a battle company of tac marines from a single chapter just because it fits the lore (as it doesn't match the game rules in a functional way). Take a look at 99%of lists and they mot that fluffy. E.g. a circle of guard artillery around commissar yarick in an open position not fluffy at all but viable
Fluffy alternative bastions full of infantry with the artillery behind simulating a defensive position but it doesn't work because the games rules won't let you deploy the bastions as they are too near terrain.
New video is up in the starting Admech series, this one covers the remaining Forge Worlds: https://youtu.be/DxDFF2pKk8E
I think I covered most things in regards to the Forge Worlds and ranked them fairly. Do you agree with my rankings and opinions or would you argue I overlooked something?
I think I covered most things in regards to the Forge Worlds and ranked them fairly. Do you agree with my rankings and opinions or would you argue I overlooked something?
I liked it. Really covered the Forgeworld Soup concept well. One bit of feedback is that it is probably hard for newcomers to visualize how a list like that would look like. Furthermore, the undefeated list at that European tourney was notable because of how it showed thoughtful consideration on what to sacrifice to make the list greater than the sum of its parts.
Some quick points:
1) Mixing all of those Forgeworlds into one detachment saves 2 CP, which is important because the list is CP hungry.
2) Because your list is not all Mars, they won't all benefit from the Canticle, nor will they all be inside that big 9" bubble for rerolls. So you don't need to have Cawl. Taking a Dominus saves 120 points.
3) When you play such a list, you pick your Canticle every turn, Shroudpsalm, Mars, and the RR1 aura are what you use to have a strong opening.
Also, the partner of choice for Data-hoard is actually Stygies, since they struggle with early game mobility and actually are not very CP hungry.
You also forgot to mention that Luminary Suffusion allows the debuff to apply to vehicles, which is a big improvement.
Expansionist Forgeworld is one of the better options if you want to splash Raiders as allies into an Imperium Soup army.
Engine war brought a glimmer of hope. Renewed optimism and a spark of excitement for many.
9th is settling in now and covid restrictions aside, I don’t see Admech doing that well amongst the rest of the pack.
Anyone got an idea of what a competitive Admech list looks like aside from clearing the shelf and purchasing a car load of breachers?
Aside from the obvious problems with our 8th codex(poor units and terrible relics/warlord traits etc) what do you all think the army needs when it gets a refresh
I think I covered most things in regards to the Forge Worlds and ranked them fairly. Do you agree with my rankings and opinions or would you argue I overlooked something?
I liked it. Really covered the Forgeworld Soup concept well. One bit of feedback is that it is probably hard for newcomers to visualize how a list like that would look like. Furthermore, the undefeated list at that European tourney was notable because of how it showed thoughtful consideration on what to sacrifice to make the list greater than the sum of its parts.
Some quick points:
1) Mixing all of those Forgeworlds into one detachment saves 2 CP, which is important because the list is CP hungry.
2) Because your list is not all Mars, they won't all benefit from the Canticle, nor will they all be inside that big 9" bubble for rerolls. So you don't need to have Cawl. Taking a Dominus saves 120 points.
3) When you play such a list, you pick your Canticle every turn, Shroudpsalm, Mars, and the RR1 aura are what you use to have a strong opening.
Also, the partner of choice for Data-hoard is actually Stygies, since they struggle with early game mobility and actually are not very CP hungry.
You also forgot to mention that Luminary Suffusion allows the debuff to apply to vehicles, which is a big improvement.
Expansionist Forgeworld is one of the better options if you want to splash Raiders as allies into an Imperium Soup army.
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. To address some of your points:
1.) I agree, and I also agree with your points about having example lists. The intent is to have future videos being about the first 500 point list, the first 1,000 point list, and first 2,000 point list, each one being a full Video to help the player from building their first list to their final list. Granted, I could have probably thrown a quick example out there in this video as well which may have been useful.
2.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't everyone benefit from the canticle? As I understood it, all units benefit from a canticle as long as you chose to replace it, but the stratagem, dogma, and certain abilities like Cawl's rerolls are locked to a Forge World. I also agree about the Dominus point, and I could have mentioned it but the following parts of the series are intended to go into each unit type (HQ, Troops, etc) in more depth than covered in the Forge World section.
Good point on the Luminary buff, and what makes Expansionist good for the Raider splash? I haven't seen it too often yet so I haven't given it too much thought, and the list that placed in a top 4 that did it ran Lucius raider spam next to Knights.
Engine war brought a glimmer of hope. Renewed optimism and a spark of excitement for many.
9th is settling in now and covid restrictions aside, I don’t see Admech doing that well amongst the rest of the pack.
Anyone got an idea of what a competitive Admech list looks like aside from clearing the shelf and purchasing a car load of breachers?
Aside from the obvious problems with our 8th codex(poor units and terrible relics/warlord traits etc) what do you all think the army needs when it gets a refresh
Admech has done pretty well, but the majority has been mostly Breacher spam. That being said, something like Rickard Nilsson's list avoided Breachers and did place 3rd in the Hanseatic Open which had 101 players: https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s
Techpriest_ wrote: 2.) Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't everyone benefit from the canticle? As I understood it, all units benefit from a canticle as long as you chose to replace it, but the stratagem, dogma, and certain abilities like Cawl's rerolls are locked to a Forge World. I also agree about the Dominus point, and I could have mentioned it but the following parts of the series are intended to go into each unit type (HQ, Troops, etc) in more depth than covered in the Forge World section.
Mars Canticle only affects Mars units. So the idea is that you pick Canticles based on what you intend to do that turn. I usually do Mars/Shroudpsalm, RR1s to hit, Mars/Shroudpsalm.
Good point on the Luminary buff, and what makes Expansionist good for the Raider splash? I haven't seen it too often yet so I haven't given it too much thought, and the list that placed in a top 4 that did it ran Lucius raider spam next to Knights.
Expansionist + Rugged explorators allows your raiders to advance and fire at no penalty and if they charge or are charged etc get additional AP on their melee. There's quite a few things that benefit from it, Sterylizors, Fulgurites, Ruststalkers are the main beneficiaries, but not really an army-wide benefit like some of the main forgeworlds. If you were going for a melee-centric list it's a good alternative to Ryza and if you're not taking a lot of vehicles Metallica's canticle isn't all that useful so the Expansionist route is better than Metallica's dogma.
U02dah4 wrote: ap2 on the charge and no penalty to advance and fire would be nice without the boats
Add in an Artisan warlord for mortal wounds in addition against vehicles on a wound roll of 6 as well makes that str 6 and vehicle focus weakness less of an issue as well
Having said that my last Forgeworld purchase was a Knight Styrix, which also used to be pretty awesome...kinda not anymore. They don't appear to have ruined much with the first 2-4 9th books but it's early days given 3 of the first 4 were marine books. We'll see what they do with DG for a better metric of how biased they still are to marines.
Looks like hoplites are now 12ppm and peltasts are 9ppm, no changes other than them getting a 6" heroic intervention when next to a <titan legion> titanic unit.
On the plus side the Drill did go from D3 shots to 5 shots flat with the Melta weapon and it does D3+3 damage in melee now going up to D3+6 against vehicles.
New video is up as well from my channel, this time we take a deeper dive into HQ choices: https://youtu.be/DSRhQI3sadU
As a whole though, it's probably too many points now. I know we heard that before with the two Skorpius options, but those went from a must have 3 of, to strong options, whereas the Drill was strong but not mandatory like the Skorpius variants were before the points change.
More so, there's the issue that it's not just a matter of raw points increases but that how much any given unit costs. The Drill is now approaching Cawl in terms of points and comparatively Cawl provides way more to an army than the Drill does. Maybe I'm wrong and it will continue to be a decent choice, as five Melta shots are rather strong, as well as the transport capacity and other abilities.
There is no reason to pay 180 base points just for that stat line. You could get a Stratoraptor for that investment. More durable, more mobile, more firepower at longer range...
180pts is a lot for just a transport. The Termite how ever blurs the line between a transport and a tank. Its like a hyrbid of a Leman Russ with the toughness and the firepower (in shooting and melee). So it all depends on your list really whether it is worth it or not. If you just want a durable vehicle that gets your Skits/Priests into the thick of it, is it more effective at that role than the Dunerider? Or is it shoring up a weakness in your army?
I wouldnt use it for 180pts as a means of transporting my army, id rather have the 2 Duneriders instead. But if my army was lacking some punch, then sure.
Peltasts lose their indirect fire option.
Hoplites go up to 12ppm.
Neither get dogmas.
Styrix goes up to 475, but taking the siege claw and rad cleanser is free. It's stomping feet are now flat 3dmg instead of D3 and the Volkite Chierovile now inflicts 2 MW on a wound of 6 instead of 1
The drill is a mixed bag. Its now too expensive as a pure transport option imo. You almost have to think of it as a Land Raider-sized Dreadnaught thats not quite as good at hitting stuff but can hold 12 infantry in it's belly and deep strike. For 44pts more.
Well, saved me some money at any rate. I think i'd rather take Ruststalkers over Hoplites at 12ppm.
Peltasts lose their indirect fire option.
Hoplites go up to 12ppm.
Neither get dogmas.
Styrix goes up to 475, but taking the siege claw and rad cleanser is free. It's stomping feet are now flat 3dmg instead of D3 and the Volkite Chierovile now inflicts 2 MW on a wound of 6 instead of 1
The drill is a mixed bag. Its now too expensive as a pure transport option imo. You almost have to think of it as a Land Raider-sized Dreadnaught thats not quite as good at hitting stuff but can hold 12 infantry in it's belly and deep strike. For 44pts more.
Well, saved me some money at any rate. I think i'd rather take Ruststalkers over Hoplites at 12ppm.
is 12ppm confirmed cause outside of one reddit post the reviews ive seen look like they are still 10.
also the magaera seems very interesting to me with the improved stomp and 2 more shots on the lightning cannon
Its a bit difficult to read because of course the guys doing early review points the camera at the book at a STEEP ANGLE but that is clearly a 12 to me.
Side note, peltasts are 9ppm. Unfortunately that seems to be the one unit the guy completely flew over w/o showing so no idea if theyre any good.
Okay, so I got around to reading the sheets themselves.
Secutarii:
-Secutarii get the Titan Legion keyword, which functionally does nothing
-Secutarii can be taken in units of 5 now
-Hoplites went up to 12 ppm, which means they are worse than Corpuscarii
-Peltasts lost the only good profile they have
-Secutarii can no longer board Drills
Drills:
-GAINS SKITARII KEYWORD
-GAINS CANTICLES OF THE OMNISSIAH
-Melta got buffed from Assault D3 to Heavy 5 (Mars means S9!)
-Gained 4 wounds
-Lost 3 attacks and the MW grinder, but gained +D3 damage on the Drill and an additional +3 damage against vehicles
-Costs 180 base, but this INCLUDES weapons other than the Volkite Chargers, which are +5 points each
So I take back what I said about the Drills. This is a buff because of the Canticles. Having 5x S9 shots is ridiculously good. Being able to give it +1 to hit on demand due to the Skitarii keyword is also great; also funny because it benefits from Omniscient Mask now.
Ideasweasel wrote: So are we going to see the DeWalt meta I wonder. Insert total recall references
Not Gurren Lagann references? Row row fight the power.
But what to put inside?
The boring answer is 2x5 Mars Plasma Vanguard or 10-12x Mars Corpuscarii.
But if we're Souping, you could bring 3x4 Mars Servitors with 6x Multi-Meltas for 204 points. 35 points for a Lucius Enginseer to Solar Flare next to them. (They don't need to match Forgeworlds to get the +1 BS.)
EDIT: Here's a new Soup list:
Spoiler:
Mixed Battalion Detachment
HQ - 170 1x Mars Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos
1x Lucius Enginseer - The Solar Flare
1x Daedalosus
Transport - 380 1x Mars Terrax-Pattern Termite - 2x Heavy Flamer
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
Elite - 340 10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Fast Attack - 485 5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
5x Mars Serberys Raiders
5x Mars Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 450 1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 2000 points 12 CP
I give up 6x Ryza Destroyers for better scoring ability in the Drill and Lucius Enginseer. The combination of deep strike and infantry makes Engage On All Fronts/Linebreaker or Deploy Scramblers/Teleport Homer reliable secondary picks.
Two assault teams with 5 Raiders and 10 Fulgurites in a Boat to infiltrate and grab the near objectives on turn one.
Mars Drill + 2x5 Plasma Vanguard drops in on turn two to melt vehicles while being difficult to remove; the Vanguard can hide behind the Drill, which acts as a LOS blocker.
In terms of choices, I can also drop the Calivers, since the Vanguard really are there for scoring, and upgrade the Lucius Enginseer into a Stygies Manipulus with Prime Hermeticon. But I am not sure if the Manipulus can keep up to provide the aura on turn one though. Another option is to take an Inquisitor. The scout deploy stratagem is important to create a 18" bubble for my Boats to move through against things like Nurglings. There's also access to CP recycling through Mental Interrogation and Esoteric Lore and the ability to deny. (And Dominate. LOL.)
I'm sure those drills only used to be £70, the £84 they're priced at now seems like more than the marginal increase everything got a while back.
I'm gonna have to re-jig all my Crusade lists to fit in 2 more power's worth of transport now, at least I can potentially take out a tank or something and use the excess elsewhere lol
Oof those price hikes are a bit rough — both the hoplite points and the irl price increase on the drill. I was planning on converting up 10 hoplites but not so sure now.
On another note, and forgive me if this has been talked about already, but are Servitors suddenly a good anti-tank option?
I know, sounds silly, but hear me out With the updates to the multi-melta servitors might be our (somewhat poor) eradicator impression. If you take two units of 4 servitors with 2 multimeltas each you can outflank them and come in with the Mars canticle for 8 strength 9 melta shots, and they're long enough range that it's hard to screen out. Granted, you have to bring a techpriest of some kind along but that seems like a lot of fire power to me for 136pts + whatever priest you bring and it's still only 1cp to outflank them all.
so by the time you factor in the enginseer you have more points than eradicators and less firepower once you factor in bs and less endurance seems weak
Ok so bear with me here, I might be a late to the party with this one. Was reading through the pychic awakening for admech and noticed under the Fabrications of the Artisan Warlord trait, the Enhanced Engine Interface trait that lets vehicles fall back and shoot only says friendly Vehicle units, not <FORGEWORLD> Vehicle. The other two abilities in the same warlord trait very specifically call out <Forgeworld>.
If I'm reading that right it works for all vehicles right? So IG tanks, Knight Armigers, Space Marine vehicles, sisters of battle excorcists, etc.? I know most lists are avoiding allies due to CP costs but seems like a good trick to have in your back pocket, especially since you can take an admech warlord in addition to your main one.
U02dah4 wrote: so by the time you factor in the enginseer you have more points than eradicators and less firepower once you factor in bs and less endurance seems weak
True, it's not a trivial amount of points, and it lacks the *cough* OP *cough* efficiency of Eradicators but I think it might be worth it if you go all in on it. You can get 3 units of 4 servitors with 2 multimeltas each and Daedalosus for 259pts, together they're all 9pl so you can outflank the whole package for 1cp. With Daedalosus and the Mars canticle that's 12 strength 9 melta shots hitting on 3s. I'd say that can pretty reliably delete most high value targets. Sure they'll die pretty easily but it makes for a decent distraction from the rest of your force, and with their reasonably long range, who knows, they might get to fire more than once.
U02dah4 wrote: so by the time you factor in the enginseer you have more points than eradicators and less firepower once you factor in bs and less endurance seems weak
True, it's not a trivial amount of points, and it lacks the *cough* OP *cough* efficiency of Eradicators but I think it might be worth it if you go all in on it. You can get 3 units of 4 servitors with 2 multimeltas each and Daedalosus for 259pts, together they're all 9pl so you can outflank the whole package for 1cp. With Daedalosus and the Mars canticle that's 12 strength 9 melta shots hitting on 3s. I'd say that can pretty reliably delete most high value targets. Sure they'll die pretty easily but it makes for a decent distraction from the rest of your force, and with their reasonably long range, who knows, they might get to fire more than once.
I get where you're going with this idea, and I definitely thought about it when they first revealed Strategic Reserves, but ultimately the Servitors were better as low points objective sneaks.
That being said, you also have to consider that you can inversely take a mixed detachment with Ryza Plasma Destroyers and get insane output on a rather resilient body. I think the Ryza Destroyer squad in a mixed detachment is rather underrated right now and we'll see more of it in the future.
Techpriest, I just want too say thanks for your work and easy explanation! Keep it up.
I’ve learnt a lot and am going to start the new year 21 with Admech as I have all ways liked Admech but never started playing as others at the club had an Admech army and I didn’t want to play the same. But now i have an extensive force of CD and CSM with some flavor of 1kSons and feeling for a change.
I’m currently building myself and my girlfriend a house and it will be more or less done by new year’s so haven’t had time to play in 9th but got plenty of play in 8th and I heard that terrain is a thing but not much else had changed so I’ve built a list using BS and your advice.
Belisarius cawl
Daedalus
Manipulus
2x 3 Destroyer
1x 6 destroyer
1x 5 vanguard
1x 10 fulgulrite electropriest
1x 3 ironstrider
1 x 4 serberys riders
3 skorpius disintegrator
1skorpius dunerider
All of which is Mars.
I like too have a shooty list as that’s what I’m missing with my other army so thinking of adding dunecrawler and remove electropriest.
Some advice on units add/remove and tactics for 9th would be much appreciated!!
In terms of 9th Edition, the terrain changed but also the focus in terms of play changed a bit as well. In 9th Edition there's a much bigger focus on primary and secondary objectives, so becoming familiar with objectives and establishing a game plan is very important. Additionally, as objectives are so important now, gun lines have become a bit weaker, but they're still playable as deadliness of units has not decreased substantially.
The list you have isn't bad, but Destroyers are a bit on the questionable side right now. Especially the block of 6 you have there, I would highly suggest dropping it down to 5, as that's where you cross the blast weapon line and expose yourself to higher amounts of damage. With Destroyers being a priority target already, and not being the tankiest unit in the army, it's far more risky to take them in a block of 6 than most other units.
With the new stats on the Termite Drill I’m contemplating buying 2 more (I already own 3 from back when that was our only transport option) and running a list of 5, along with 3x10 Fulgurites and 4x5 vanguard alongside an engineseer with prime hermeticom and a Manipulus with Divinations of the Magos and the Omniscient Mask.
It’s mobile, relatively resilient, and hits hard at close range.
That leaves me 400 points to round out the list. I’ve considered 1-2 Skorpius w/Belleros, a block of 5 ironstriders, a Ryza patrol of Plasmphrons, a mars patrol of grav-kataphrons, a swarm of Serberys Raiders, and various combinations of the above, but I can’t settle on a choice.
Any of you more experienced Tech-Priests have any advice how to round out the list? I’ve got around 7k points of admech so I’ve got just about every option available.
In terms of 9th Edition, the terrain changed but also the focus in terms of play changed a bit as well. In 9th Edition there's a much bigger focus on primary and secondary objectives, so becoming familiar with objectives and establishing a game plan is very important. Additionally, as objectives are so important now, gun lines have become a bit weaker, but they're still playable as deadliness of units has not decreased substantially.
The list you have isn't bad, but Destroyers are a bit on the questionable side right now. Especially the block of 6 you have there, I would highly suggest dropping it down to 5, as that's where you cross the blast weapon line and expose yourself to higher amounts of damage. With Destroyers being a priority target already, and not being the tankiest unit in the army, it's far more risky to take them in a block of 6 than most other units.
I used to think we should be avoiding units above 5 as well, but it only really meaningfully affects single D3 shot weapons. On average a Single D6 will average 4 shots and with Blast against a unit with 6-10 model gets a minimum of 3, whereas a single D3 gets it's max 3 shots. 2D3 and 3D3 weapons, as well as 2D6 and 3D6, also benefit less from Blast units between 6-10 as 3D3 has a minimum of 3 anyway and 2D6 a minimum of 2. it's only when you go to units of 11 or more that Blast actually really makes a meaningful difference giving maximum shots from every dice.
Now if Blast against 6-10 gave minimum 3 per dice, that would be a different story.
While I agree that the blast changes shouldn't completely force you from taking squads over five models, I would advise against it (in a general sense, not absolute sense) on priority or soft targets that can be susceptible to heavier fire power, especially in cases like this where the player is taking multiple units of the same model and can move one from a six man to a smaller squad and keep all of them under six.
Vast majority of blast dont wanna hit squads of T3 models. Yeah theres some out there (aggressors) but most are rather big guns.
The only time blast has actually been painful is when its a multiwound unit like the cavalry. Its why i stopped trying to make sulfurhounds work, they just eat the first flat 3 damage gun out there and die stupidly quick.
Thanks for all the feedback! Forgot about blast weapons so going to split them into 4-5 man units. It’s good to hear that I’m not totally lost in my list tho. I have a few months left before I buy anything so things might change. I keep checking this tactica from time to time and come back to ask for more answers when it’s time.
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys, just curious how are the Cavalry performing in 9th edition? I love the models and wouldn't mind painting up a small force of them
The Raiders are one of our best units due to their points efficiency and utility in screening. Some top 4 lists of Imperial Knights have even splashed an Admech detachment with nothing but an Engineseer and three squads of Raiders.
Sulphur Hounds might be ok but haven't shown up yet in any top lists to my knowledge.
Anecdotal evidence but I love them. Finding it hard not include 3x5 raiders in every list I make.
The pregame push to get up the board and act as an unchargeable screen is so good.
I think playstyle is a big part but they are my favourite unit just now. Taken as Stygies or Lucius they are a suprising bullet sponge. Sure they fold to any serious shooting but with a 3+ Ignore AP1 they soak up fire
Its a bit difficult to read because of course the guys doing early review points the camera at the book at a STEEP ANGLE but that is clearly a 12 to me.
Side note, peltasts are 9ppm. Unfortunately that seems to be the one unit the guy completely flew over w/o showing so no idea if theyre any good.
Its a bit difficult to read because of course the guys doing early review points the camera at the book at a STEEP ANGLE but that is clearly a 12 to me.
Side note, peltasts are 9ppm. Unfortunately that seems to be the one unit the guy completely flew over w/o showing so no idea if theyre any good.
got my book today, they are still 10ppm
Weird, because I saw a much clearer shot of the points page and I'm almost dead certain it was 12ppm. Still, you have the book so cant really argue. Just need Plastic versions of them now and for Peltasts to be troops.
It's an AdMech vs Slannesh game but I'm at work and can't watch to see if we may have incoming news. I expect Slannesh tho since they have a new AOS box recently.
*edit* - I watched the lists last night, nothing new for AdMech there at least.
Another question, are the Blast Carbines worth it on the Sulphurhounds? They seem a tad expensive for what they do to be honest but I do like the increased threat range.
The Blast Carbine is probably too expensive for what you get. It's stronger than the pistol and has a much nicer range and amount of shots, but it's almost double the cost of the pistol load out and more importantly the breath is a pistol weapon so it conflicts with the Carbines.
Don't forget, you're also paying for their pistol ability most likely, whether or not you're running pistols. Who knows though, maybe someone can figure out something with the Carbine as the profile of it isn't bad.
Techpriest_ wrote: The Blast Carbine is probably too expensive for what you get. It's stronger than the pistol and has a much nicer range and amount of shots, but it's almost double the cost of the pistol load out and more importantly the breath is a pistol weapon so it conflicts with the Carbines.
Don't forget, you're also paying for their pistol ability most likely, whether or not you're running pistols. Who knows though, maybe someone can figure out something with the Carbine as the profile of it isn't bad.
I am a little confused as to how it would affect them negatively if they Advanced considering the carbine is an assault weapon? Couldn't you advance and shoot that still anyway?
Techpriest_ wrote: The Blast Carbine is probably too expensive for what you get. It's stronger than the pistol and has a much nicer range and amount of shots, but it's almost double the cost of the pistol load out and more importantly the breath is a pistol weapon so it conflicts with the Carbines.
Don't forget, you're also paying for their pistol ability most likely, whether or not you're running pistols. Who knows though, maybe someone can figure out something with the Carbine as the profile of it isn't bad.
I am a little confused as to how it would affect them negatively if they Advanced considering the carbine is an assault weapon? Couldn't you advance and shoot that still anyway?
You are correct, but I'm not sure what I said that implied the contrary.
The reason the carbine actually hurts them is threefold
1) its expensive for such a minor upgrade 2) its assault, rather than a pistol. They have a rule allowing them to fire pistols after advancing, and since the rule is specifically "fire with assault weapons after advancing at -1 to hit" and not a general -1, they suffer no penalty firing pistols after advancing but do suffer for the assault weapon. 3) They still have a pistol, and now they cant fire all their weapons.
Vineheart01 wrote: The reason the carbine actually hurts them is threefold
1) its expensive for such a minor upgrade
2) its assault, rather than a pistol. They have a rule allowing them to fire pistols after advancing, and since the rule is specifically "fire with assault weapons after advancing at -1 to hit" and not a general -1, they suffer no penalty firing pistols after advancing but do suffer for the assault weapon.
3) They still have a pistol, and now they cant fire all their weapons.
Number 3 wouldn't be an issue if the carbine replaced both pistols, as it stands you're paying for a pistol you cant fire.
And you cant fire the carbine while in engagement range either. If You ask me the carbine should be the same price as the two pistols together and should replace both. It's an acceptable choice/compromise to increase range and shots at the expense of mobility and flexibility. At the moment it just costs more and only has the range benefit.
I am looking to play my admech for the current and season beyond. Those of you that have been able to game, what things have you been finding? Anyone bucking the trend by not spamming breachers?
I am currently trying to make a 3 drill list with a load of priests work but havent quite figured out the rest. 3 squads of raiders always seems to be a staple of mine. Anyone had any success with the bombers?
Vineheart01 wrote: The reason the carbine actually hurts them is threefold
1) its expensive for such a minor upgrade
2) its assault, rather than a pistol. They have a rule allowing them to fire pistols after advancing, and since the rule is specifically "fire with assault weapons after advancing at -1 to hit" and not a general -1, they suffer no penalty firing pistols after advancing but do suffer for the assault weapon.
3) They still have a pistol, and now they cant fire all their weapons.
This could be avoided however by taking Metalica Forgeworld correct? Sorry for all the questions haven't played for a minute due to covid shenanigans and school but it does say "If a unit with this Dogma Advances it can ignore the penalty for firing assault weapons"
That part yeah but Admech largely doesnt use assault so thats kinda wasted perk.
Still wouldnt let you fire the flamer pistol though in conjuncture, when close enough
Vineheart01 wrote: That part yeah but Admech largely doesnt use assault so thats kinda wasted perk.
Still wouldnt let you fire the flamer pistol though in conjuncture, when close enough
So you would have to pick and choose is what you're getting at, seems like the really only reason to take the carbines is so you have hitting power before you get into pistol range but that probably doesn't justify the point cost
If ti was a free optional upgrade i'd probably use it, as thats generally a turn of shooting you'd get to offset the wonky close-range shooting. But its not free, its not even cheap. So hard no for me.
Not that sulfurhounds are even any good. Ive been trying to get them to work for quite awhile...they just die instantly as generally theyre the first thing the big guns see, and if they cant hit my robots/crawlers/tanks/striders i dont blame them for firing a big gun at a T3 model lol since it has 3 wounds. Mine arent painted yet, just primed, and im seriously tempted to rip their arms/heads off and switch them to rangers lol. Since i made the mount with the ranger mount anyway (looks better imo)
I agree with the hounds not being good, I LOVE the model but they're too easy to kill. I've had very little success with the raider too however. I do enjoy using sulphurhounds and dragoons as a t1 distraction to leave more of my army free to do its thing t2 onwards.
I have found sulphurhounds as better character hunters than raiders due to their advance and shoot and still being able to charge. They can burn through most screens allowing a charge on a character, the problem is they struggle to kill what they charge, but if backed up they can be useful. I still prefer them to raider for the model alone.
laam999 wrote: I agree with the hounds not being good, I LOVE the model but they're too easy to kill. I've had very little success with the raider too however. I do enjoy using sulphurhounds and dragoons as a t1 distraction to leave more of my army free to do its thing t2 onwards.
I have found sulphurhounds as better character hunters than raiders due to their advance and shoot and still being able to charge. They can burn through most screens allowing a charge on a character, the problem is they struggle to kill what they charge, but if backed up they can be useful. I still prefer them to raider for the model alone.
raiders arent for killing. they are for screening, move blocking, charge blunting, grabbing random objectives and general annoyance. If they can get some shots and do some damage, great, but thats not what i take them for. I've seen people pop protector doctrina and wrath of mars on a big squad to try and kill characters and it just never goes right.
I cant quite understand his list choices, some of it is obvious but some downright curious.
Of the vanguard squads only 1 is graia, the other 2 are listed as Stygies. I could understand if all 3 were Graia for redundancy or if he was pure Stygies for the -1 to hit. But cant see him scout moving 2 squads when he already will be scout moving 3 duneriders too.
I cant quite understand his list choices, some of it is obvious but some downright curious.
Of the vanguard squads only 1 is graia, the other 2 are listed as Stygies. I could understand if all 3 were Graia for redundancy or if he was pure Stygies for the -1 to hit. But cant see him scout moving 2 squads when he already will be scout moving 3 duneriders too.
Any thoughts?
1 is graia just to access the 4+ deny strat. He puts one of the stygies vanguard in the drill with the unit of 7 priests so he can jump them out and deploy scramblers with them. There are only 2 duneriders and they get filled with priests and scout moved. He was on art of war recently discussing his list.
Thanks for that. I’ll check out the podcast. I’m not a fan of breachers but looking to expand what Admech stuff I have. Stupidly bought 3 fliers and quite a few raiders and priests boxes.
Feel like I’m going to ebay half of that stuff. Nice to see some lists doing well that don’t rely on just taking tons of breachers
Thanks for that. I’ll check out the podcast. I’m not a fan of breachers but looking to expand what Admech stuff I have. Stupidly bought 3 fliers and quite a few raiders and priests boxes.
Feel like I’m going to ebay half of that stuff. Nice to see some lists doing well that don’t rely on just taking tons of breachers
All those are good units though. Probably dont need a 3rd flyer but the rest is solid.
I cant quite understand his list choices, some of it is obvious but some downright curious.
Of the vanguard squads only 1 is graia, the other 2 are listed as Stygies. I could understand if all 3 were Graia for redundancy or if he was pure Stygies for the -1 to hit. But cant see him scout moving 2 squads when he already will be scout moving 3 duneriders too.
Any thoughts?
I've actually spoken to him about it. A part of the weird lineup is because his European circuit has a house rule that allows the Manipulus to select auras while embarked.
If you want a list that is more US/UK standard though:
Spoiler:
Mixed Battalion Detachment
HQ - 205 1x Mars Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos
1x Stygies VIII Tech-priest Manipulus - Prime Hermeticon (-1 CP), Anzion's Pseudogenetor
1x Daedalosus
Troop - 140 5x Mars Skitarii Vanguard
5x Mars Skitarii Vanguard
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard - Enhanced Data-tether
Elite - 340 10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
Transport - 380 1x Mars Terrax-Pattern Termite - 2x Heavy Flamer
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
Fast Attack - 485 5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
5x Stygies VIII Serberys Raiders
5x Stygies VIII Serberys Raiders
Heavy Support - 450 1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
This is the latest iteration of my Forge World Soup list. If you are not familiar with the concept, basically, I give up dogmas to gain access to multiple stratagems without having to pay detachment taxes. The goal is to facilitate an aggressive board control strategy.
Mars Dominus because Cawl is too big an investment for this list given the lack of access to the Mars dogma. I just pick Canticles, especially the Mars Canticle, Shroudpsalm, and Machine Might. Daedalosus to help focus fire on midfield targets.
Stygies Manipulus with Prime Hermeticon to help push the Fulgurites into the midboard.
One unit of Graia Vanguard for turn one Scramblers and backfield screening and objective-holding.
Firebase consists of Mars Ballistarii and Disintegrators. This combination is very effective against a variety of enemies. With Magos, Doctrina, and Wrath, Ballistarii can take down W3 enemies and hordes alike. Disintegrators offer non-LOS fire, which is important in dense boards. They also serve as WWSWF targets that can hide behind terrain.
Two assault teams comprising 5x Raiders and 10x Fulgurites in Boats. Infiltrate all of them on turn one toward midfield objectives. Support them with the firebase; soften up targets and finish them off with the Fulgurites. Once they get their 3++ inv. saves, they become a nightmare to remove.
Strike package of a Drill with 2x5 Skitarii. The Drill has been buffed in the new Imperial Armour with +4W, Canticles, Skitarii keyword, and an upgrade of the Melta Drill to Heavy 5. Just drop this brick in the enemy deployment and start deleting their backfield vehicles. The Skitarii are there for scoring purposes. Hide behind the Drill to score Linebreaker and Deploy Scramblers. Your opponent may be forced to hold units back to screen the Drill, giving you an advantage in the primary.
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 375pts]
.Kastelan Robot
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters
.Kastelan Robot
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters
.Kastelan Robot
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters
I haven’t seen many people using the bombers. I had high hopes for their competitive utility
Sure. I actually did a write-up and copy-pasted it above.
Fusilave and Stratoraptor are both very playable. They reliably get Engage On All Fronts, and if you go first, they have these massive Knight bases that can block vehicle movement.
Mixed Vanguard
Lucius Manipulus w/Solar Flare - 70
10 Lucius Stick Priests - 170
2x Graia Servitors - 28(56)
3x17 Lucius Fisty Priests - 238 (714)
2x4 Mars Sulphyr Hounds - 88 (176)
It's silly flexible, gives up almost zero secondaries in any real numbers, and plays secondaries and missions insanely well. You could alternatively just turn the entire second detachment into Lucius for the extra -1 resilience and make the servitors instant scramblers.
Ideasweasel wrote: Well now that’s interesting. Cheers folks. I had missed some of those lists.
Maybe 3 fliers is excessive but perhaps I’ll try to work in 2
I am liking the appeal of throwing stick priests at the enemy with clandestine infiltration
It forces the opponent to deal with you and gives you a board presence.
I have found going second sometimes I can get penned in
Who knows, maybe the three Flyer thing can work, as we've seen two can work. They're the same cost as Disintegrators if you run them as Stratoraptors and a bit less as Bombers, so it's definitely possible we could see some list going hard on them.
One thing I should mention, mostly because I missed it while working on one of my videos, is that Clandestine Infiltration has changed from the codex printing and now it's just a 9" scout move as opposed to an actual infiltration. Still very good though.
Stratoraptors definitely can be strong. People have been taking as many as 4 as Mars with Chaff Launchers and setting them to hover around a Cawl and Magos Warlord. It's pretty close to running an Imperial Knight, actually. Except you trade the T8 and 4++ invulnerable save for Wave Serpent durability, aren't one unit and thus cannot get Jinxed/Doomed or whatever, and you can gain -1 to hit and spread out across the board, blocking people.
4x Stratoraptor is:
T7 W40 3+, -1 damage received
20" move, great height
BS3 shooting:
-32x 36" S5
-24x 36" S7 AP2, ignore cover
-8x 48" S10 AP3 DD6
Oh, you're right. I guess I had Wave Serpent spam on my mind. Maybe bring 3 and a Bomber. Fill out the Flyer slots and make it a nightmare for your opponent to kill anything or move anywhere.
Happens to the best of us. I had a 12 Lightning Locks Moirax list I was very excited about until a friend reminded me 4x3 is 12
4 fliers would be so fun. I played a friends ironhands list with 2-3 fliers before and enjoyed turning off his invulnerable bubble. And my fav was doing as you described. I parked myself front side of an objective, no physical way for his dread to claim an objective and with shroudpsalm and him not being in the Dev doctrine - meant I was hard to shift.
I wonder how shroudpsalm on fliers will work long term. I’m not advocating it be removed but when you think about it, it’s amusing to have a flier with a cover save. The upcoming codex and potential core stuff has me a little reluctant to fully assemble everything in case a lot of my builds become invalidated but I think I’ll look into magnetising and then I’m future proofed
laam999 wrote: I agree with the hounds not being good, I LOVE the model but they're too easy to kill. I've had very little success with the raider too however. I do enjoy using sulphurhounds and dragoons as a t1 distraction to leave more of my army free to do its thing t2 onwards.
I have found sulphurhounds as better character hunters than raiders due to their advance and shoot and still being able to charge. They can burn through most screens allowing a charge on a character, the problem is they struggle to kill what they charge, but if backed up they can be useful. I still prefer them to raider for the model alone.
raiders arent for killing. they are for screening, move blocking, charge blunting, grabbing random objectives and general annoyance. If they can get some shots and do some damage, great, but thats not what i take them for. I've seen people pop protector doctrina and wrath of mars on a big squad to try and kill characters and it just never goes right.
I get this the issue is that t3 means they die to a stiff breeze lol
I think the War zone Charadon will be more like the Vigilus books than engine war. So it will probably be some new detachments with specific unit restrictions, relics, and stratagems.
I'm kind of scared with Metalica being featured as fighting typhus. If I had to bet on anything we lose the fight because GW doesn't make our transfers and our rules suck, meanwhile typhus and DG are getting a new codex. We really needed a new codex and a better trait, relics, etc. I understand the base codex is great if you're mars or stygies but most of the traits and abilities are pretty terrible for other lists. The codex's age shows, so much in the book is absolutely terrible or just doesn't function how it's supposed to.
I was hoping with the skitarii alpha previewed we'd be seeing a new codex soon, but looks like another bandaid solution of formations and strategems. I want to run admech but sadly most of my units are bad or just dont work well with each other. Yanking Vigilus detachments really hurt my army, and I guess GW will charge me $50 for the privilege to get them back, before they charge me for a codex too of course. I hate being cynical, just frustrated because most of my collection is doing pretty poorly right now.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'm kind of scared with Metalica being featured as fighting typhus. If I had to bet on anything we lose the fight because GW doesn't make our transfers and our rules suck, meanwhile typhus and DG are getting a new codex. We really needed a new codex and a better trait, relics, etc. I understand the base codex is great if you're mars or stygies but most of the traits and abilities are pretty terrible for other lists. The codex's age shows, so much in the book is absolutely terrible or just doesn't function how it's supposed to.
Honestly, I'd be more concerned if it were Stygies. Metalica had a transfer sheet which they can make available again.
I was hoping with the skitarii alpha previewed we'd be seeing a new codex soon, but looks like another bandaid solution of formations and strategems. I want to run admech but sadly most of my units are bad or just dont work well with each other. Yanking Vigilus detachments really hurt my army, and I guess GW will charge me $50 for the privilege to get them back, before they charge me for a codex too of course. I hate being cynical, just frustrated because most of my collection is doing pretty poorly right now.
Real-talk:
I get this. But y'know what? Them taking a bit longer to get us our book actually makes me hopeful. We were an early 8th book. And it showed how much input their outside playtesters had because wow was it basically the "tournament player wishlist" when it came to how the books were "combined". I definitely think the "OMG THEY'RE SELLING US DLC!" attitude some are having is a bit early though. We have no idea what's in this book, ruleswise. I made a comment to that effect to the Community team. Hopefully we'll get a 'spotlight' article on what to kinda expect sooner rather than later.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote: I am waiting for the day when Red Tide becomes a thing again. Give us the Primus, increase Dunerider capacity to 11, drop Sicarian points.
I'm waiting for the day I can use my daggone Thanatar.
Interesting. We're #6 in the TIWP rating. (Basically, the rate at which we go 4-0 at GTs relative to our representation in lists.)
Also:
TiWP is also a way to spot player skill. Both the Adepta Sororitas and Adeptus Mechanicus have roughly double their expected TiWP percentage but possess a much lower win percentage than Harlequins. This suggests that these armies have a steeper learning curve, but can perform exceptionally in the hands of the right player or in the right circumstances. This means that player skill matters in Warhammer 40,000.
Heyo folks, some cooking advice would be appreciated...
I'd like to run a servitor maniple, a tech priest and dominus + a bunch of arc breachers (data hoard forge world!) and raiders.
I'd also like to run a seperate detachment of a couple of tank commanders and filler AM units.
Is this legal? Have I understood what's available correctly - I'm looking to start collecting but before I commit, I want to make sure I have it right.
Are there any restrictions from having a mixed army, two different detachments etc?
Specialist detachments, such as the Servitor Maniple, aren't allowed in some missions (such as all the 2020 Mission Pack missions).
If you're not using those missions, you should be OK, but I'd suggest talking with your opponent first to make sure you're on the same page.
As long as your AM units are in their own detachement, you can run them in the same army as your AdMech detachment. I'm not sure how good/competative that is, especially since it will cost you a couple of Command Points, but you can do it.
I wanted to use Jazz Hands priests as mars for Mortal wound output.
Do you think they are good coming out of a drill or should I just take as lucius and ignore the mortal wounds.
Ideally I could make a list that features 2 fliers, jazz priests, raiders and perhaps fulgurite priests and drills in some form but im struggling for space.
Anyone rocking Lucius or any off the wall weird lists right now?
Greetings! I've been reading this forum quite a while, but first time posting and soon gonna be my first 40k tournament. It will be a 18 CP 1500+1500 pts duo. Can you give some advices on my list? I have almost everything, except for cowboys and pteraxii. My list
ELITES1: C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer, Power of the C'tan: Gaze of Death, Sky of Falling Stars [18 PL, 350pts]:
FAST ATTACK1: 9x Canoptek Scarab Swarm (15) [6 PL, 135pts] FAST ATTACK2: 9x Canoptek Scarab Swarm (15) [6 PL, 135pts] FAST ATTACK3: 8x Canoptek Scarab Swarm (15) [6 PL, 120pts]
==Auxiliary Support Detachment -2CP (Necrons) [18 PL, 350pts, -2CP]== ELITES2: C'tan Shard of the Deceiver: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Insanity, Antimatter Meteor [18 PL, 350pts]
This is what I have so far. Trying to make mars drill spam with jazz hand priests work.
4 drills and 20 priests is 1k on the nose for half an army of deepstrike. Fliers to help thin hordes and tremor shells/turn off aura/help with engage on all fronts. Las chickens for T1 AT if needed. Doggos for screen/engage on all fronts. Troops cause left over points and backfield objective
Anyone have any thoughts on how to make this better?
Ideasweasel wrote: This is what I have so far. Trying to make mars drill spam with jazz hand priests work.
4 drills and 20 priests is 1k on the nose for half an army of deepstrike. Fliers to help thin hordes and tremor shells/turn off aura/help with engage on all fronts. Las chickens for T1 AT if needed. Doggos for screen/engage on all fronts. Troops cause left over points and backfield objective
Anyone have any thoughts on how to make this better?
Do you need all those lascannons with 20 deep striking melta shots? Depends what you're up against I guess but you could add chaff launchers to your Fusilaves and plasma to your vanguard if you switched them to Autocannons instead.
It probably has a little to do with my regular pool of opponents.
Admech stygies breacher spam
Chaos knights
Iron hands all dread list
Custodes
There tends to be a lot of AT packed in our area and I suspect partly to shut down my imperial knights for the last 3 years. Gotten a bit bored with knights so returning to admech.
But general rule of thumb is take as much AT as you can and then triple it lol
New content is up, finally all of the units are covered in the Admech forces. I also learned something about the Dunecrawler in terms of real world relation when looking up some info.
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 375pts]
.Kastelan Robot
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters
.Kastelan Robot
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters
.Kastelan Robot
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Skorpius Dunerider [5 PL, 100pts]
2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Dunerider [5 PL, 100pts]
2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
Total: [111 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts]
Admech has a crazy amount of build paths.
As someone facing ad mech, what "hard counters" me is those Serberys Raider you see in all the three lists you posted. These things are nightmares for melee focused armies. Worst scout unit ever conceived since 4th edition IMHO
Techpriest_ wrote: New content is up, finally all of the units are covered in the Admech forces. I also learned something about the Dunecrawler in terms of real world relation when looking up some info.
I'm at work and can't watch the video, what did you find out about the dunecrawler?
Techpriest_ wrote: New content is up, finally all of the units are covered in the Admech forces. I also learned something about the Dunecrawler in terms of real world relation when looking up some info.
I'm at work and can't watch the video, what did you find out about the dunecrawler?
So I knew in the lore the Dunecrawler was designed by a techpriest based on what he heard of mules on earth, as in the animal. I also knew that an Onager was a type of medieval siege weapon, but what I didn't know was that the Onager was named after a species of mule according to historical accounts as it made a kicking action that was reminiscent to the kind an Onager mule would make.
I just found that to be 4D levels of naming conventions and lore.
