U02dah4 wrote:
Your not trying to last the whole match just long enough

Uh... I've never won a tourney match on objectives without infantry at the end, have you?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
I love the dogs. It’s the first thing I’m looking at when making lists. The ability to make an opponent fail a charge is awesome

Yeah. Scout them out turn one, block the Gallant, Warptimed bombs, etc. Two boxes are just ugh so expensive...

Many but I have historically been more of an etc than itc style player and own multiple armies.

If you can score enough In the first three turns you can be tabled and your opponent can't catch up.

Of course having lots alive at the end is going to help and improve your tiebreaker but its not a requirement.

That list is trying to win consistently not win big

Its a spike vs timmy argument

Although personally I don't like the flyers inclusion or possibly cawls, but I can understand why they are there

In my opinion, any game plan that depends on scoring 6 (now 5) rounds worth of primary points in the first 3 rounds is not a 5-1 list. It doesn't even make sense because AdMech, as a gunline, tends to spend the first 3 rounds removing enemy threats with smart trades, then spends the last 3 rounds scoring points to catch up.

Anyhow, I watched the Richard Siegler game. First of all, I do not think this is a TAC list. He was specifically building an anti-Elites list that focuses on spamming mortal wounds and ignoring LOS. I am convinced that the Corpuscarii are useless without a Boat or Drill to move them around; Mark Perry pretty much wiped them in a lucky turn, which would not have happened if they were in a Drill. That said, Siegler's Fusilaves were BRUTAL. The double pivot makes it really easy to just zip them around to deal mortal wounds and hide out of range or behind LOS-blocking terrain (but remember that Obscuring does not apply to Flyers). The utility from the Tremor Shells was also important; he never shut down auras with them, but that is also a nice plus.

Finally, it's funny because his army looks exactly like mine. We both rock that sky blue color.

EDIT: So actually, I just made a new list that is my take on Siegler's list:


Might need Raiders though.

More I think about it, not really my style, but I think some of you guys might enjoy it.

Sigh, another edit. My friend pointed out that I do not need a Battalion anymore (8E habit). So I switched to a Spearhead. I can also fit in 3x Icarus Crawlers for a more well-rounded firebase.

That's a really scary list. Although you will lose cp with a spearhead as it has no command benefits like the patrol, bat and brigade. I also reckon Cawl will be a Supreme commander as mentioned by a playtestern on how to play admech in 9th on youtube

 0XFallen wrote:
That's a really scary list. Although you will lose cp with a spearhead as it has no command benefits like the patrol, bat and brigade. I also reckon Cawl will be a Supreme commander as mentioned by a playtestern on how to play admech in 9th on youtube

Right. Missed that about Spearheads. Anyhow, I did more tweaking to get a unit of Raiders in for skirmishing:


I am sure that we can win any gunline battle as long as we have 5 Ballistarii. But I actually don't think this list is the optimal list. Corpuscarii are only better than Hoplites when you use the Overcharge stratagem on them; without that, they are fragile and short-ranged. That CP is better spent on Dakkabots (which are super reliable mortal wounds) and Ballistarii. Which is ironic, since I went 4-2 with a Dakkabots and Ballistarii list awhile back; I feel like we're back to where we were after Castellans got nerfed. The only difference now is that taking Boats with infantry in them is probably smarter than taking a Krastsader. I think we need to really want to control the objectives.

So what about this list, which cuts the Crawlers for a Bomber and another Robot?


Not sure what to do with the last 30 points though.

We don't need more reasons to run Cawl. So in some ways, I don't want him to be SupCom. Unless they're willing to let us pick his Forge World?

I much prefer the second list. I think the first one didn’t really suit the playstyle you wanted to go for

So I think we have settled that Hoplites are generally more efficient than Fulgurites and Breachers when we're optimizing points and for the objective capture role (rather than optimizing every slot in a transport). But what about Hoplites vs. Corpuscarii? They are very similar in their profile (elites that can shoot and fight), though the roles seem a bit different.

Hoplites are cheap as hell and have 2x+1 attacks that are S6 AP-1 and Arc. They have 5++ that goes to 4++ against melee; natural 6s reflect a mortal in fighting. They can use Protector Doctrina, but really do not need to. They seem ideal for tying up T5 elites and T5-6 vehicles. I think they are ideal as inexpensive cannon fodder; MSU of 10x in a Boat.

Corpuscarii are a bit more expensive and have 3x S5 attacks that explode into 3 attacks on natural 6s. They got nerfed from 8E. The Overcharge stratagem gives them AP-2. They seem ideal for shooting T4 elites and maybe charging in to finish them off. I guess bring a 12x unit in a Drill as an aggressive Deep Striking threat?

So what do we think the new Skitarii character might be bringing?

Suzuteo wrote:So I think we have settled that Hoplites are generally more efficient than Fulgurites and Breachers when we're optimizing points and for the objective capture role (rather than optimizing every slot in a transport). But what about Hoplites vs. Corpuscarii? They are very similar in their profile (elites that can shoot and fight), though the roles seem a bit different.

Hoplites are cheap as hell and have 2x+1 attacks that are S6 AP-1 and Arc. They have 5++ that goes to 4++ against melee; natural 6s reflect a mortal in fighting. They can use Protector Doctrina, but really do not need to. They seem ideal for tying up T5 elites and T5-6 vehicles. I think they are ideal as inexpensive cannon fodder; MSU of 10x in a Boat.

Corpuscarii are a bit more expensive and have 3x S5 attacks that explode into 3 attacks on natural 6s. They got nerfed from 8E. The Overcharge stratagem gives them AP-2. They seem ideal for shooting T4 elites and maybe charging in to finish them off. I guess bring a 12x unit in a Drill as an aggressive Deep Striking threat?

For true melee purposes, which looks to be needed in 9th (still didn't get a game, just my undrestanding from batreps) Hoplites are superior. I'd say Corpuscarii have a mean shooting with a bonus CC in a pinch, and Hoplites have a mean CC with a bonus shooting. Hoplites are also more resilient (4+/5++) and cheaper, they have AP-1 and S6 means they can threaten Gravis and light vehicles. The mortal wounds on reflected hits is cherry on the cake, but never forget you can't let's say, roll 60 saves all at once, do 40 6s, and fail all the rest, killing the unit, to do 40 MWs. We have to roll dice per dice in this scenario, which can take a bit of time. At least that's my understanding, maybe you got tips on how to fast roll those.

Kanluwen wrote:So what do we think the new Skitarii character might be bringing?

I'm hoping, it's buffs to only <Skitarii> to make them more interesting. As I said a few pages ago, I'm hoping for a selectable aura that either gives bonus to CC or one that gives bonus to Shooting, something along these lines. Also hoping he's not a total wimp in CC like all our characters. AND T4.

Definitely hoping its a character that can hold his own in melee for once.
As been pointed out several times....tech priests (all flavors) suck for everythign except standing there with auras.

Apart from hating painting Skitarii... I need to wait for that Forgeworld update book before I decide if Hoplites are worth my time.

If they get access to Dogmas I'm totally in, if they don't....I'm probably going to stick to Breachers. Far more utility for the same points efficiency on a tougher model with actually useful guns for holding objectives and their weapons under trans node power cores make them better than Hoplites anyway, plus some other buffs, makes them a better move imo.

Breachers are obsec as well, so for the purpose of holding an objective and still being useful while they're there, Breachers seem like a better move imo.

As for the character....personally I hope we move away from having Skitarii specific things for no apparent reason. At the moment its there purely for thematic reasons, Skitarii cont get an inherant army benefit that non Skitarii do. Like if they added that all Skitarii could re-roll 1s to hit or something, then I'm all for having a thematic separation. At the moment its just a hinderance for me. Hopefully our 9th ed codex sorts out this jankey separation that's hanging around like a bad smell from 7th.

I thought so as well and then had my first game in 9th against guard.
LR with demolisher cannon and a Manticore on the opposite end of the table means your Kataphrons do jack feth.

Both wound on 2's, AP -2 upwards, flat 3D - even with Learnings of the Genetor and Graia they keeled over very, very quickly.

Rest to say I wont play Kataphrons against Guard anytime soom again

But I'm currently struggling to get lists done - very limited experience in 9th so far, so I'd appreciate some general advice.
I find myself struggling to fit anything that seems to be required - troops to hold objectives, guns to deal with the enemy threats. transports to actually get to the objective...

Earlier you'd went for min troops, build a castle and be done with it with Dragoons and Grators as your mobile element.
Now however, you need quite a lot of models to get the primary points which really eats into your ability to reduce the enemy or have transports.
It's like a magical triangle you never can satisfy all edges...

 Thairne wrote:
I thought so as well and then had my first game in 9th against guard.
LR with demolisher cannon and a Manticore on the opposite end of the table means your Kataphrons do jack feth.

Both wound on 2's, AP -2 upwards, flat 3D - even with Learnings of the Genetor and Graia they keeled over very, very quickly.

Rest to say I wont play Kataphrons against Guard anytime soom again

But I'm currently struggling to get lists done - very limited experience in 9th so far, so I'd appreciate some general advice.
I find myself struggling to fit anything that seems to be required - troops to hold objectives, guns to deal with the enemy threats. transports to actually get to the objective...

Earlier you'd went for min troops, build a castle and be done with it with Dragoons and Grators as your mobile element.
Now however, you need quite a lot of models to get the primary points which really eats into your ability to reduce the enemy or have transports.
It's like a magical triangle you never can satisfy all edges...

Manticores are Dd3, unless Tank Ace.

Demolishers are Dd6.

likely I'm remembering things wrong, I just remember after asking "damage?" getting a "flat 3" as an answer

That's a pretty specific scenario though. Not many things have D3 damage at that range with enough shots without LoS. You only have to knock a Guard tank down a bracket to all but take it out of the game anyway, 2 brackets and you can almost ignore a non character/ace.

Breachers, I see them as better anti elite with a side of anti light vehicle. Str 6 at ap -2 is the sweet spot and D3 dmg at decent range. And by the numbers the same melee as Hoplites under trans node power cores. We have plenty of other anti armour offerings and tough infantry is what it's gonna hold an objective. But you've gotta get them there and deal with the threats to keep them, there's not much that can just face tank whatever is thrown at them and live.

Everytime I look at Hoplites and Corpuscarii I can't help but feel like if I don't put them in a 100pt transport I might as well not take them at all. The transport gets them there in theory, they jump out and charge, take the objective and then get vaporised in your opponents shooting phase. That at least denied your opponent which is fine if you can score elsewhere. But they're never holding it long enough to score it.

And it hurts my head that even if they do get onto an objective they're then non combatants unless something charges them. They're more of a battering ram imo that needs to just keep ramming into stuff. If they stop they're dead.

Optimistically Breachers would stay there longer, but are dead slow by comparison. That's where raiders and Pteraxii come in imo. They get there and have to be dealt with while you're vehicles are less targeted and try to get rid of what threatens your objective holders. Then by turn 3 your Breachers are hopefully holding objectives with much less opposition and Raiders might have got you some points anyway.

I might just be being pessimistic because I don't have any Hoplites and trying to justify them to myself like this isn't working lol they are the most absurdly expensive unit ever money wise and to then have to put them into an absurdly expensive transport feels like a lot of work that I can't see paying off.

@Octovol
Honestly, I think Raiders are in 9E what Breachers were in 8E. Efficient wounds per point, and a move from midboard control to grind your opponent to death to a focus on objective control.

That is why I favor Boats. I can pile an objective with 1-3 Boats, body blocking enemies while shooting 12x S5 Heavy Stubbers each from afar. The Skitarii do nothing but hide inside the Boat. Which is why I want this package to be as cheap as possible. 200 for Boats+Hoplites, 190 for Boats+Vanguard.

Anyhow, I tweaked further. After my local lockdown ends, I will be playtesting this:


Watching those videos convinced me that I need some sort of non-LOS shooting. 2x Grators for that. 5x Ballistarii for anti-tank, 4x Dakkabots for anti-everything.

I pay for this by dropping one Boat+Hoplite unit. Basically, I will be relying more on my gunline to remove melee threats.

Still considering if I want to drop a Dakkabot for a Bomber. Those things are fearsome. Another option would be to drop the Enginseer to upgrade the Hoplites to Corpuscarii. Right now, the Enginseer is just a part of the Cawlstar.

4 dakkabots is just such consistent firepower but perhaps dropping to 3 is an acceptable trade.

I’m really looking forward to trying mine out on a game Thursday (scotland is doing quite well with virus stuff)

Think I’m up against either a strong death guard or sisters list.

I am struggling to finalise my list though. They always start easy. Cawl, 5 ballistari, some dogs...

And then I just never know which direction to take

My big question right now is what the best firebase is. I know that I am using a mix of Hoplites and Vanguard for my assault teams. Also know that I am using Cawl and Mars.

Personally, I favor either:
A) 5x Auto Balli, 4x Dakkabots, 2x Mortar Grator
B) 5x Auto Balli, 3x Mortar Grator, 2x Icarus Crawler, 1x Bomber

A has just amazingly strong output. B is consistent and tough as nails.

Would you feel confident dealing with hordes (option B)

Although less likely

 Suzuteo wrote:

Watching those videos convinced me that I need some sort of non-LOS shooting. 2x Grators for that. 5x Ballistarii for anti-tank, 4x Dakkabots for anti-everything.

---

Still considering if I want to drop a Dakkabot for a Bomber. Those things are fearsome. Another option would be to drop the Enginseer to upgrade the Hoplites to Corpuscarii. Right now, the Enginseer is just a part of the Cawlstar.

Do you have links for those videos? A quick YouTube search brought up a whole load of irrelevant stuff lol

So is the gameplan for the bomber, just swoop about diagonally and try and take out larger units of 1w models? With the occasional seismic bomb to slow something fast that's heading for an objective?

I'm coming round to the boat + cheap infantry way of thinking. Duneriders filled with bodies are not so easily removed.

I also have ideasweasel's affliction: Dominus, Daedalosus, doggos, sterylizors, balistarii and two big vehicles of some kind is what I'm working with atm. the numbers and variations of which fluctuate almost daily lol

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790684.page#10886728

Thats the current version of the SoB admech list I'm working on for the first Scottish tournament since covid in Sep

@Ideasweasel
Mortars are Blast now, and I will have a Bomber, so not too worried. Icarus Crawlers also always have had decent volume fire.

@Octovol
They just posted it on YT: https://youtu.be/KYYamZUbOyY

Yeah. Though if I had 5x Raiders, I would consider running that too. Those things are a very useful skirmishing tool. You only need one or two units of them too.

@Suzuteo how quickly do people in your area tend to pop transports?

In my area transports that dont deepstrike are virtually impossible to use. People tend to assume if there isnt something super lethal in them theres some secret trick up the owner's sleeve that they cant let happen, so they pop it anyway.
Dunno how many times I've brought a Dunerider and had it eat an unusually high amount of shots right off the bat. And I dont even own any hoplites yet so it's just plasma vanguards inside lol (if I run priests they use the drill)
Same goes for when I use orks. Multiple walkers and/or buggies? Nah, imma pop that trukk with boyz in it first. What the what? Lol.

This is probably clouding my personal value on dunerider. I just never seem them worth it but you always seem hell bent on them being the crutch to your tricks

@Vineheart
Yeah, that is normal. Transports are total bullet magnets. But everything dies; yet not everything can be made useful before dying. I always expect my Boats to be gone by round two, so advance them as far up the board as I can and position them to disembark their contents behind LOS-blockers. If they don't die, I park them on objectives (maybe drop 5 Vanguard off and then move on) and quietly score points while the rest of my army plays cagey to make smart trades. Given all the vehicles in my list are T6-7, it's quite easy to know what to trade for: kill anything with a S7-8 gun. Boats are also an element of threat saturation. In this case, I am forcing them to choose between exposing themselves to shoot my Boats, Ballistarii, or Dakkabots. It's funny, but they usually shoot my Boats for some reason. (This is even more obvious with the tanks list. Since they're all T7, if I hide my Ballistarii, people prefer to direct their S7 fire at the Boats.)

@U02dah4. Small world I stay in Aberdeen. Not many tournaments up here yet. I’m thinking of hosting one eventually. Have you heard of voidhammer in Elgin. That’s one I’m hoping to go to at some point.

Has Glasgow got a good tourney scene?

@Suzuteo ah my bad. I forgot belaros was blast

No real tournaments in Glasgow just clubs.

Almost all the big Scottish tournaments (barring voidhammer Andrew has tried to get me to go but its a little too far east) are based out of Common ground games in Stirling (with a couple of fluffier events in Dunfermline). Its a great venue with enough space and being central draws the players from accross Scotland. Glasgow doesn't really have anything comparable to it.

First tourney is Clan wars Sep 12th (but it sold out in 24 hours).

I play about 8 Scottish events and 2 English (BfEM and the LGT). a year

Ah cool. I’ve heard of common ground but have yet to attend. Maybe next year.

I met Andrew earlier in the year at a tournament. Nice guy and he offered me advice for me setting up a tourney.

8 events is a commendable number. I only really
Manage about 2-3 at most. Once things quiet down I hope to do more

@Ideasweasel
To be fair, Blast only makes a difference for Mortars at 11+. 3D3 always guarantees 3 shots.

Sooo, I recently came into possession of 15 dragoons.

Are dragoons out of favor now? Do they have a place in lists these days?

I plan on running all of them for a few games with friends to test them out against different armies.

Massed charges for the win! I plan on having 2 groups of 3 auto cannon ironstriders with them, 2 groups of hoplites in boats, a group of 5 raiders, and an engineseer as the rest of the list in an outrider detachment as the rest of the list. Comes out to 2k on the nose!

They got nerfed in 3 different ways in the transition to 9th they are fairly weak now

Yeah, sadly i dont see dragoons doing much.
Theyre not really resilient since their main strength was -2 to hit, which doesnt work now.
Theyre not that lethal as they have pitiful rate of attack for their cost, but at least could explode on 4+ for 3hits making them easily causing ~7-9 hits each. That got nerfed too to be unmodified, so now its only 6s.
They also cost a fair bit. They werent really cheap before either and they went up.

i have 4 of them, i loved running them and now theyre dead weight. I tried, but they simply dont do anything. I'd rather run priests with a drill at this point and theyre not exactly amazing either lol.

So I only just got the admech books I need but I don't have the latest chapter approved point costs or the 9th ed rulebook.

So far kastellan robots and the kataphron battle servitors. Seriously you could probably have solid anti infantry, anti-meq, and anti vehicle or anti monster without much issue just spamming different types of these units here and giving them the right combos. It might be a bit boring but intimidating to fight against. If 6 melee kastellans get in range youre about to have a really ugly time esp if they switched to melee priority mode.

Did 9th change any of this? If not I'll see if I can get a warlord that boosts kataphrons with a 5+ Fnp.

Yes and no - Mars Castle was clearly what the designers intended and if the game was a shootout they would be great

But a castle is not great in the new mission structure which craves mobility and those are amongst our slowest

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So I only just got the admech books I need but I don't have the latest chapter approved point costs or the 9th ed rulebook.

So far kastellan robots and the kataphron battle servitors. Seriously you could probably have solid anti infantry, anti-meq, and anti vehicle or anti monster without much issue just spamming different types of these units here and giving them the right combos. It might be a bit boring but intimidating to fight against. If 6 melee kastellans get in range youre about to have a really ugly time esp if they switched to melee priority mode.

Did 9th change any of this? If not I'll see if I can get a warlord that boosts kataphrons with a 5+ Fnp.

I can't really comment on Kataphrons but I have some experience using melee Kastelans (we call them Fistelans in this thread ) at least back in 8th, haven't played 9th yet. I used to play a unit of 4 with Fists and Combustors, and either played them as Lucius for the teleportation strat, Stygies VII for the scout move, or Ryza for the rerolls of 1 to Wound.

Well each game they did really well, they were rarely wiped off the table, and if they did it was after a few turns. I used them as a huge distraction to go threaten the big stuff while flaming the infantry around, alongside their Datasmith for the Vigilus +3" charge and repairs. Given they have a good invuln, they're mostly safe from shooting by footslogging as long as you keep them walking in Aegis mode. I only passed the Combat protocols with the stratagem to have them fight twice as soon as they start hitting, so that I could keep the 4++ in Overwatch.

However they suffer from a few problems. First: for the same cost (around 420 pts in 8th) I could have used easier ways to delete vehicles and/or infantry, and from a distance. It just that I wanted to play them this way but they're not the most efficient in this role. However if the "distraction" aspect of it in the form of 24W T7 2+/4++ spitting fire and punching tanks is worth anything, it's something.
Second, the paradox: they're a melee unit that hits on 4+, and have no invulnerable save in melee. That's a huge handicap when facing certain units. I once fumbled my hits against a Knight Gallant and it just killed them all in one Reaper swing. Smash Captains can cripple them easily too, or Daemon Princes and such. So they're best used against things that don't punch back, like tanks, transports, shooty elite units and such. The best rerolls you can give them is 1s to Hit with the Canticle and 1s to Wound when playing Ryza, and that's not reliable. My best uses of them was when I rolled hot in Combat protocols, other days they did jack sh**.
Third: they could get tarpitted. Got stuck fighting Cultists for 3 turns once and that sucked.

But in 9th, with the smaller boards, the need to get up close and personal, and the boosts to Vehicles ? I think they're worth considering. I'll try them as soon as I can get a game and keep you guys updated. Now that they can shoot in melee they're harder to bog down with cheap units, and D3 damage flat at S10 makes them good counters to heavy infantry like Gravis or the new Bikes (even if they're 4W, ugh). They have a huge footprint so can screen a side of the board while moving up.
However they keep their first and second problems as said earlier and this is why I hope the devs will think about them in their 9th Ed codex, I'm hoping for a rework of their datasheet or of the Datasmith to give them rerolls, the latter would make the Datasmith a more desirable choice too as for now he can be replaced by a CP.

Anyone heard of this 60 nurglings list that allegedly just teleports onto the objectives then sits there for 5 turns racking up points?

Myth? Real? Something we can handle?

can you honestly imagine that many people painting 60 bases of nurglings to a tabletop standard

Will someone run it outside tabletop simulator possibly

so how do you deal with that well the castle clears one objective at a time but probably struggles because its a bad list mission wise

but a skitarri horde just rocks up and kills them

There was talk of a very successful Tyranid list that ran 180 Termagants, so I could see 60 nurglings being easy to bring in comparison.

Big swarms seem to be a viable counter to primaris marines but at 9ppm I'm not sure how viable it is for admech.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Anyone heard of this 60 nurglings list that allegedly just teleports onto the objectives then sits there for 5 turns racking up points?

Myth? Real? Something we can handle?

I can see that with the scout move allowing them to pop 9" from your deployment zone, but they don't score the points at the end of the turn if I remember 9th missions well, only at their next Command Phase as you can't score most Primaries turn 1. So just... going out and shoot them ? Charge them ? They're T2, even Radium Carbines are weapons of mass destruction against them.60 Nurglings is 1080 pts, they can't have anything threatening left with 920 pts. If you have Raiders and the first turn you can also out-scout them.

It is 240 5++/semi 5+++ wounds.

Man, I could bang out 60 Nurgling bases in like an hour or two with my airbrush. Each box of Nurglings can build like 9 bases if you spread them out a bit. So it's not that bad, a couple hundred bucks of Nurglings. Agh, I might have to refurbish my original Nurgle CSM/Daemons army from back in 5th.

Anyway, sorry, off track. The trick to Nurglings is D2 weaponry. We actually have probably the best possible tools to deal with it in Kastelan Robots and Ironstriders with Autocannons. With Cawl, each Ironstrider kills a base and each Robot kills just under 2 bases. The Mars lists typically run 5 Ironstriders and 3 or 4 Bots, which is plenty to remove an entire Nurgling squad per turn. You just have to focus fire to prevent Nurgling Infestation and Disgusting Regeneration.

Now, 54 Nurglings is well over 1k points itself. That doesn't leave a lot of room for big scary daemons, so it's hard for that army to retake objectives. The other disadvantage is Nurglings aren't that many bases to contest with ObSec. I could see turn 1s where you hold your own objective, shoot the Nurglings off and take one, and throw bodies to contest another. The Nurglings maybe score 10 or 15 points on the first round, but you can quickly push it back to even scoring.

I definitely think a lot of armies won't have the tools to deal with it, so it'll get played. I think a more conservative army is normal Chaos shell with a patrol of 3x9 Nurglings bolted on. They just deploy on the forward objectives and score until backup arrives.

One-dimensional lists of that sort always crop up early in a meta, but they never last very long. But I'm sure we can handle it. Vanguard, Disintegrators, Ballistarii, Dakkabots. A lot of our shooting outputs mortal wounds or is D2.

Ultimately, lists like that are generally extremely boring and even if theyre technically the most OP thing ever they die out anyway.

You arent even playing the game at that point. Just sit your models down and roll defensive dice.
Its the kind of thing you might see someone do once or twice for the lulz and never again. Sorta like me running 30 meganobz as orks lol....

All this talk about horde lists really makes me want to play a lot of Lucius Corpuscarii that just teleport onto the field and melt things with their rather large amount of shots.

Edit: For those saying people won't like playing Nurgling swarms, well let's just say in any game there are those who love budget choices that are simply annoying, and with Nurglings you can build an army on the cheap and be annoying. In games like MtG a deck like Burn is very boring in theory, very cheap to build, and has a lot of people who just enjoy playing it despite it being "Deal 3 to your face for 1 Red mana" over and over.

If I didn't have funds, and wanted to get into the game, I'd have no issue dropping money on a boring cheap list and then expanding from there over time.

Just asking for an opinion, but would you guys think it would be okay to use my converted Fulgurites as Corpuscarii?

I'm sure nobody would mind one blue-skinned fanatic for another outside of a tournament.

Hey, speaking of the Fusilave earlier, it got me curious. I've been having great success refining my current list, so I wanted to try something different using the flyers. This list flies pretty contrary to the lessons I've learned in 9th so far:The Raiders were the last thing I added to fill points because they're new and shiny. They can Scout move on to objectives and hunker down. Maybe a Disintegrator or something would be better threat overload. Warglaive spam seems to be the name of the game for Knights in 9th, and they are gnarly with the PA updates.

The list should be heinously tough and fast. I genuinely have no idea how effective the list would be to play in 9th, though. It's got enough individual units to sit on each objective, but obviously no ObSec. If it can dive in and kill the anti-tank threats immediately (and I think it can), then maybe it's durable enough to win the long game anyway. I'll give it a simulated game eventually. What do you guys think of it?

60 nurglings and 200 conscripts are lists i've been hearing people bringing up on podcasts saying that they are boogeymen in 9th so I wouldn't be surprised to see people show up with them.

Sooo bit of wild speculation here but that invictor instruction manual inferred that its stubbers were 4 shots each. What if the reason stubbers went up to 5 points is cause they are going up a shot?

Gee, this is just like early 8E all over again. Conscripts, Nurglings, Plaguebearers, those annoying 30 point Psykers (forgot their dumb name)... EDIT: Malefic Lords! Screw those. Glad they got nerfed into the ground.

Well, we have Cognis Heavy Stubbers, so unless they update our codex, we will be stuck at 3.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So what do we think the new Skitarii character might be bringing?

I would like a character that supports our priests
It would be nice to be able to disembark from our drills and have a bonus of +2 for example to help reach our rival, getting a 9 on 2d6 is not always easy

Khornatedemon wrote:
60 nurglings and 200 conscripts are lists i've been hearing people bringing up on podcasts saying that they are boogeymen in 9th so I wouldn't be surprised to see people show up with them.

Sooo bit of wild speculation here but that invictor instruction manual inferred that its stubbers were 4 shots each. What if the reason stubbers went up to 5 points is cause they are going up a shot?

Conscripts is unlikely to be competitive because of the blast rule.

But it shouldn't be a surprise that in a mission structure based around holding objectives people consider units that are good at holding objectives

Hello,
I am reading that everyone is running with autocannon in your Ballistarii, I see autocannons as a weapon that is not good at anything, compared to the lastcannon. Let me explain, force 7 against vehicles in many cases makes you shoot at 5+ or 4+, against 3+ but the elite normally saves well so ap -1 is unnecessary, with the cantico de marte we can make it f8 but although in some cases we will go to 3+ the vast majority will be 4+, for these reasons it seems to me a weapon that is not very good against anything, on the contrary the autocannons will always go to 3+ and with their ap -3 I will assure you that the rival has to use invulnerable in case of having it. I know they are half the shots but for 10p is it worth using lastcannon? I would like you to help me change my mind.

The list I'm running on 9th is this:

I really notice that the heavy stubbers in the onager are unnecessary but I can't think of another way to use 10p.




++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [112 PL, -1CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars

+ HQ +

Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, 200pts]: Warlord, Warlord Trait (Mars): Static Psalm-Code

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, -1CP, 35pts]: Mechanicus Locum, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Warlord Trait (Engine War): Divinations of the Magos

+ Troops +

Kataphron Destroyers [10 PL, 129pts]
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 45pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger: 4x Galvanic Rifle

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 45pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger: 4x Galvanic Rifle

+ Elites +

Fulgurite Electro-Priests [8 PL, 170pts]
. 10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest: 10x Electroleech Stave

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii [12 PL, 225pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 500pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 135pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 120pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array

+ Flyer +

Archaeopter Fusilave [6 PL, 130pts]: 4x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Command Uplink

Archaeopter Fusilave [6 PL, 130pts]: 4x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Command Uplink

+ Dedicated Transport +

Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill [8 PL, 136pts]
. Storm Bolters: 2x Storm bolter

++ Total: [112 PL, -1CP, 2,000pts] ++

There's a Stratagem that gives Balistarii +1 to wound, and add the Warlord Trait for an extra -1 AP at half range, you get a weapon with more shots, wounds on the same number, almost the same AP, and for cheaper.

 Orodhen wrote:

Spoiler:

iamanbo wrote:
Hello,
I am reading that everyone is running with autocannon in your Ballistarii, I see autocannons as a weapon that is not good at anything, compared to the lastcannon. Let me explain, force 7 against vehicles in many cases makes you shoot at 5+ or 4+, against 3+ but the elite normally saves well so ap -1 is unnecessary, with the cantico de marte we can make it f8 but although in some cases we will go to 3+ the vast majority will be 4+, for these reasons it seems to me a weapon that is not very good against anything, on the contrary the autocannons will always go to 3+ and with their ap -3 I will assure you that the rival has to use invulnerable in case of having it. I know they are half the shots but for 10p is it worth using lastcannon? I would like you to help me change my mind.

The list I'm running on 9th is this:

I really notice that the heavy stubbers in the onager are unnecessary but I can't think of another way to use 10p.




++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [112 PL, -1CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars

+ HQ +

Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, 200pts]: Warlord, Warlord Trait (Mars): Static Psalm-Code

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, -1CP, 35pts]: Mechanicus Locum, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Warlord Trait (Engine War): Divinations of the Magos

+ Troops +

Kataphron Destroyers [10 PL, 129pts]
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 45pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger: 4x Galvanic Rifle

Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 45pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger: 4x Galvanic Rifle

+ Elites +

Fulgurite Electro-Priests [8 PL, 170pts]
. 10x Fulgurite Electro-Priest: 10x Electroleech Stave

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii [12 PL, 225pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 500pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 135pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 120pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array

+ Flyer +

Archaeopter Fusilave [6 PL, 130pts]: 4x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Command Uplink

Archaeopter Fusilave [6 PL, 130pts]: 4x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Command Uplink

+ Dedicated Transport +

Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill [8 PL, 136pts]
. Storm Bolters: 2x Storm bolter

++ Total: [112 PL, -1CP, 2,000pts] ++

There's a Stratagem that gives Balistarii +1 to wound, and add the Warlord Trait for an extra -1 AP at half range, you get a weapon with more shots, wounds on the same number, almost the same AP, and for cheaper.

Good point, I did not remember the song of mars + stratagem

I'm still intrigued by everyone's Fusilave inclusion. Are they a distraction Carnifex? I mean I know they're only a few more points than an Onager, but they feel like they'd only be any good vs hordes for a single run then get blown out of the sky lol

I've only had a few games with mine, but I absolutely love it. It is pretty soft, and not likely to last (mine has never seen turn 4), but I find it's typically worth it in 9th. So far, it seems like a MSU edition and that's where it really shines. Small 1 wound units (5 man First Born Marines, Raiders, Vanguard, CSM etc), really struggle. Against MSU I've found that, more often than not, I can bomb a unit in the movement phase, and then finish off whatever survives with its guns.

You also have the strat that damages an enemy unit's movement which is clutch in an edition where speed is key. Plus, I love Hind helicopters. LOVE them. And the design is just vaguely similar enough that converting mine to be slightly more reminiscent of that was really fun.

Where I've found it struggles is against hordes. It falls pretty quickly to massed small arms. The games so far where it's died the quickest was against large mobs of Ork boys. It's drawback is that it really isn't super tough.

Also, +1 for the Serberys Raiders. The first time I used them, I only had a single 3-man squad. They were still so good that I immediately bought another box, and will probably add one more. They're a really rare combination of an awesome model with great rules!

Greetings fellow Tech Priests!

Love the discussion in this post, me being a more recent convert to the Omnissiah I am soaking up all the knowledge as possible.

I was wondering if there was a resource where an AdMech player could go to in order to see strategy/tactics against army matchups (ie. what to watch out for, what units to focus fire on first etc.)

If not maybe a more experienced Tech Priest could lend insight in this post.

Due to the corona virus breaking out pretty much when I started playing my admech i've only been able to play against my Uncle and Cousin who play Eldar and Dark Eldar respectively so I only have games against those armies. When we are finally able to return to playing against others in hobby stores (at least in my area) it would be nice to not go into matchups completely blind.

I also realize that 9th just came out so lists are still changing.

Anyhow, glad this community (and community of admech players exists) and I will try to add anything I learn to this post as well.

Thanks everyone

Tycho wrote:
I've only had a few games with [my Fusilave], but I absolutely love it. It is pretty soft, and not likely to last (mine has never seen turn 4), but I find it's typically worth it in 9th.

That's what I was expecting too, but my Fusilaves were invincible in the games I played this morning (granted they had a lot of target saturation). I was able to get games on the simulator against a couple of buddies who also had time off. I found the Fusilaves with Chaff were particularly durable, and I never lost one. I ran a slightly different version of my aforementioned list against what I thought would be bad match-ups: horde orks and a Cadian Brigade. I figured they'd have lots of bodies to score objectives.The Ork Horde was ~90 Boyz, ~30 Lootas, and some buffs and stuff. They went first, the Lootas focused fire into one Fusilave and did 4 wounds, one of which healed automatically at the start of my turn. He was so surprised that we checked the numbers and he actually rolled high (avg is 1 damage per squad w/ Shroudpsalm). The 2 Fusilaves were able to bomb/shoot almost an entire Lootas squad each turn, and the Warglaives' Pack Tactics killed one entire mob of Boyz each turn. Like chewing an elephant, one squad at a time. The game was over by turn 3. He'd killed a Warglaive and was nearly tabled.

I asked my Cadian opponent to tailor a bit against the list. He went with a squadron of Hydras, three Demolisher Tank Commanders and ~60 infantry. He also went first. The Hydras deal one damage on average each to the Fusilaves, so I actually ignored them. The Demolishers did blow apart one Warglaive, heavily damaged another, and crippled a Dunecrawler. However, in retaliation, the Fusilaves and Dunecrawlers opened a path to the tanks, and the Warglaives were loose like foxes in a hen house. They killed two Demolishers immediately, and in return he left only one crippled Warglaive.

He won 15 primary points on the first turn while I focused on the tanks, and then lost every turn after. Each Fusilave could kill almost an entire Guard squad a turn. The Tank Commanders were gone at the end of turn 2, the infantry by the end of turn 3. I still had a pack of Raiders, 3 Dunecrawlers, and the 2 Fusilaves against his 3 Hydras. That game was my first 100 victory points. I maxed primaries on turns 3, 4, 5, and got maximum Engage on All Fronts, Bring It Down, and Attrition.

The Fusilaves are so good against one wound infantry it's ridiculous. And I think Chaff Launchers are a must take; too much AA is D2. I still don't know how I feel about Raiders, and maybe they aren't right for this list.

 Orodhen wrote:


There's a Stratagem that gives Balistarii +1 to wound, and add the Warlord Trait for an extra -1 AP at half range, you get a weapon with more shots, wounds on the same number, almost the same AP, and for cheaper.

Is the -1 AP at half range the best of the Ordos? I had assumed it was the extra hits on 6s but I haven't done the math. I play Mars as well for Cawl and usually grab his warlord trait for more rerolls, so I'm limited to just one other Warlord Trait.

@DarkHound
Something my friend pointed out to me is that the primary reason why you would take Command Uplink on the Bombers is to shut down Tau Saviour Protocols. But Tau is a garbage tier army now, so there's no good reason to not just take Chaff Launchers and laugh in binary as they try to stop the constant barrage of mortal wounds and Seismic Bombs.

@shamroll
Yes. If you are running a Cawlstar, you want Magos. But if you are running tanks, you want Artisan. Tanks are already high volume, high strength shooting on a durable platform. The extra AP1 at half range gets you to the desirable AP2, and fall back and shoot prevent them from getting pinned against something you don't want to shoot.

@darkhound, that list looks so fun to play

 shamroll wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:


There's a Stratagem that gives Balistarii +1 to wound, and add the Warlord Trait for an extra -1 AP at half range, you get a weapon with more shots, wounds on the same number, almost the same AP, and for cheaper.

Is the -1 AP at half range the best of the Ordos? I had assumed it was the extra hits on 6s but I haven't done the math. I play Mars as well for Cawl and usually grab his warlord trait for more rerolls, so I'm limited to just one other Warlord Trait.

It depends on your target and the weapons your boosting

The extra shots grants you a 1/6 improvement to everything

The extra AP gives a variable boost based on your existing ap and targets armour.

E.g. neutronaga gains almost no boost from going to AP5 so wants extra hits

However vanguard vs terminators double their successes so want AP


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Something my friend pointed out to me is that the primary reason why you would take Command Uplink on the Bombers is to shut down Tau Saviour Protocols. But Tau is a garbage tier army now, so there's no good reason to not just take Chaff Launchers and laugh in binary as they try to stop the constant barrage of mortal wounds and Seismic Bombs.

Really no evidence to support that.

Tau are a really strong army still but probably need an infantry focused build rather than a shield drone build

TheDudeAbides wrote:
Greetings fellow Tech Priests!

Love the discussion in this post, me being a more recent convert to the Omnissiah I am soaking up all the knowledge as possible.

I was wondering if there was a resource where an AdMech player could go to in order to see strategy/tactics against army matchups (ie. what to watch out for, what units to focus fire on first etc.)

If not maybe a more experienced Tech Priest could lend insight in this post.

Due to the corona virus breaking out pretty much when I started playing my admech i've only been able to play against my Uncle and Cousin who play Eldar and Dark Eldar respectively so I only have games against those armies. When we are finally able to return to playing against others in hobby stores (at least in my area) it would be nice to not go into matchups completely blind.

I also realize that 9th just came out so lists are still changing.

Anyhow, glad this community (and community of admech players exists) and I will try to add anything I learn to this post as well.

Thanks everyone

Hello and welcome on DakkaDakka and the AdMech tactica !

I don't know of a centralised spot where you could find informations, but by searching a bit I'm sure you can find mega-threads like this one on Reddit or something. Keep in mind it's the start of a new edition, and not a lot of games are being played save on TT Simulator or certain areas, this limits the amount of data we can count on. Nevertheless, don't hesitate to ask your questions here.

If you're playing in a certain meta like the one you're describing, with your uncle and cousin and their Aeldari, yes some choices can be made to avoid redundancy. For example, they're mostly made of low Toughness, fast bikes or vehicles that rely on an invulnerable save. Knowing that, bringing Autocannons instead of Lascannons is a sensible choice. But when you're going to play at your store and don't know what you'll be facing in a pick-up game (or a planned game against a stranger) it's safer to have a list that can do a job very well even if it means losing strength in some aspects. The perfect list that will win every mission against every list doesn't exist so don't try to do that. It's generally good advice to avoir writing TAC lists (take all comers) because you're not focusing on one or two strengths of your army and so have no strategy with it. A list must have a plan of action it will try to follow and adapt to the circumstances as best it can. Currently, AdMech looks to be in a good spot. Lists are often packing 4-5 Ironstrider Ballistarii with Autocannons because they're cheap, reliable, and with proper stratagem support can kill a lot of stuff. So you have one element of your firebase set. Now it's a game of objectives and you need mobility to claim objectives, for that we have the new Raiders that are popular due to their pre-game move and other assets. Skitarii in Duneriders are nice too, or even on foot are still useful and balanced when you plan your list around it a bit.

Hope this helped you a little, but don't hesitate to ask questions !

i just dont see how Tau even function in 9th.
The game is so heavily mosh-pit focused right now, Tau basically need to table you to win because you almost guaranteed will have a lot of points before they get to score any (primaries)

im glad i sold my Tau back when 8th was new. At least i got a good chunk of my money back off them lol

Mosh pit in the middle.

Whoever stays for the encore wins. 9th edition is metal AF

\m/ \m/

@U02dah4
Tau are neither the strongest nor durable gunline army anymore, and they cannot fight. I have no idea what GW expects them to do in 9E.

Aaranis wrote:

TheDudeAbides wrote:
Due to the corona virus breaking out pretty much when I started playing my admech i've only been able to play against my Uncle and Cousin who play Eldar and Dark Eldar respectively so I only have games against those armies. When we are finally able to return to playing against others in hobby stores (at least in my area) it would be nice to not go into matchups completely blind.

The perfect list that will win every mission against every list doesn't exist so don't try to do that. It's generally good advice to avoid writing TAC lists (take all comers) because you're not focusing on one or two strengths of your army and so have no strategy with it. A list must have a plan of action it will try to follow and adapt to the circumstances as best it can.

Hey Aaranis, welcome to the party. This is extremely valuable advice. There is a temptation and a reasoning to bring one of everything to deal with any hypothetical problem. In practice, that leaves you seriously under equipped to deal with any particular problem. Focus your whole army into one specific game-plan and it's much easier to adapt the gameplan as problems arise, rather than trying to come up with a gameplan with mis-matched pieces on the fly.

As you're new, you don't quite know what you like yet or what you want to try for. Definitely try out units by playing with proxies (empty bases, soda-cans for robots, small boxes for tanks). You can find a lot of video battle reports on Youtube. AdMech is really strong going into 9th edition, so a lot of good competitive players are making videos on them. I tend to watch battle reports on 2x speed and skip around to cut ~2 hours into ~30 minutes. Once you have an idea, even a thematic or narrative one, build your whole army toward that. Get something that you enjoy playing and try to make that good.

Once you get the hang of things, AdMech is a good faction to branch out and use allied factions. I'm partial to Imperial Knights, so my armies are typically only half AdMech. There are lots of interesting ways to combine AdMech with other factions.

Ideasweasel wrote:@darkhound, that list looks so fun to play

Thanks mate, it was probably the most enjoyable list moment-to-moment that I've played. Just enough interesting movement decisions without a bunch of fiddly models, and every unit was high impact all the time. I think I could use Raiders a lot better, but they're starting to make more sense. They've just got a massive skill ceiling. Like, I could probably assaulted into the Orks in my first game and used them as a screen against the counter-charge on the Warglaives, not just the Dunecrawlers.

 DarkHound wrote:

Aaranis wrote:

TheDudeAbides wrote:
Due to the corona virus breaking out pretty much when I started playing my admech i've only been able to play against my Uncle and Cousin who play Eldar and Dark Eldar respectively so I only have games against those armies. When we are finally able to return to playing against others in hobby stores (at least in my area) it would be nice to not go into matchups completely blind.

The perfect list that will win every mission against every list doesn't exist so don't try to do that. It's generally good advice to avoid writing TAC lists (take all comers) because you're not focusing on one or two strengths of your army and so have no strategy with it. A list must have a plan of action it will try to follow and adapt to the circumstances as best it can.

Hey Aaranis, welcome to the party. This is extremely valuable advice. There is a temptation and a reasoning to bring one of everything to deal with any hypothetical problem. In practice, that leaves you seriously under equipped to deal with any particular problem. Focus your whole army into one specific game-plan and it's much easier to adapt the gameplan as problems arise, rather than trying to come up with a gameplan with mis-matched pieces on the fly.

As you're new, you don't quite know what you like yet or what you want to try for. Definitely try out units by playing with proxies (empty bases, soda-cans for robots, small boxes for tanks). You can find a lot of video battle reports on Youtube. AdMech is really strong going into 9th edition, so a lot of good competitive players are making videos on them. I tend to watch battle reports on 2x speed and skip around to cut ~2 hours into ~30 minutes. Once you have an idea, even a thematic or narrative one, build your whole army toward that. Get something that you enjoy playing and try to make that good.

Once you get the hang of things, AdMech is a good faction to branch out and use allied factions. I'm partial to Imperial Knights, so my armies are typically only half AdMech. There are lots of interesting ways to combine AdMech with other factions.

Thanks for the replies! I've definitely been experimenting with different lists, luckily I did some research towards the end of 8th before I got into AdMech so I made sure to invest in units like Onager's and Dakkabots. Here is the list I rolled with last weekend:




I have been cycling between Mars and Stygies but I think I might try out Lucius for my next battle to try out that +1 invuln canticle for two turns and maybe a deepstrike bomb with Dakkabots and Kataphrons (plus the relic to get a dominus aura in there).

I've been trying to adapt a list to 9th edition and faq's to EW since I do like bringing a knight and the most efficient way of including one CP wise makes it so that I can't give a tech priest one of those holy order warlord traits unless I drop the warglaives (which I love lol) but at the same time having exploding 6's is missed. That one list you posted @DarkHound with the 4 warglaives in it looks nasty I need to get my hands on 2 more of them. Have you tried that list with the household tradition 'Hounds of War' that lets them fall back and charge or shoot? I'd be interested to know how effective that is!

The most concerning things to me now is just my unfamiliarity with other armies outside of Eldar/Dark Eldar which leads to the other thing which is what units to invest in next. I have some serberys raiders on the way but only have 1 Ironstrider so more of those would be nice. Also looking at Fusilaves and Corpuscarii since others are saying a lot of positive things.

TheDudeAbides wrote:

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [76 PL, -2CP, 1,170pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Stygies VIII

+ Stratagems +

Archeotech Specialist [-1CP]: Archeotech Specialist: 1 Extra Relic

+ HQ +

Daedalosus [3 PL, 55pts]

Tech-Priest Dominus [7 PL, -1CP, 80pts]: Macrostubber, Mechanicus Locum, Relic: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Volkite Blaster, Warlord Trait (Codex 1): Monitor Malevolus

+ Troops +

Kataphron Destroyers [20 PL, 215pts]
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster
. Kataphron Destroyer: Heavy Grav-Cannon, Phosphor Blaster

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Skitarii Vanguard: 4x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 45pts]
. 4x Skitarii Vanguard: 4x Radium Carbine
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 500pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 115pts]: Icarus Array

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 115pts]: Icarus Array


++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [43 PL, 830pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Taranis

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 155pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Heavy Stubber

Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 155pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Heavy Stubber

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 520pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Mark of the Omnissiah, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark


++ Total: [119 PL, -2CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I have been cycling between Mars and Stygies but I think I might try out Lucius for my next battle to try out that +1 invuln canticle for two turns and maybe a deepstrike bomb with Dakkabots and Kataphrons (plus the relic to get a dominus aura in there).

I've been trying to adapt a list to 9th edition and faq's to EW since I do like bringing a knight and the most efficient way of including one CP wise makes it so that I can't give a tech priest one of those holy order warlord traits unless I drop the warglaives (which I love lol) but at the same time having exploding 6's is missed. That one list you posted @DarkHound with the 4 warglaives in it looks nasty I need to get my hands on 2 more of them. Have you tried that list with the household tradition 'Hounds of War' that lets them fall back and charge or shoot? I'd be interested to know how effective that is!

The most concerning things to me now is just my unfamiliarity with other armies outside of Eldar/Dark Eldar which leads to the other thing which is what units to invest in next. I have some serberys raiders on the way but only have 1 Ironstrider so more of those would be nice. Also looking at Fusilaves and Corpuscarii since others are saying a lot of positive things.

Hah, you introduced yourself as a beginner but you can't be that new if you're playing 2000pts. Still, with the Knights you're a man after my own heart.

Your list is very unfocused. It seems like it'd be very hard to take objectives in competitive games; it's a weakness you won't experience against Eldar since they suck at holding objectives. To make the list better, you really need to pick a direction and devote the whole army to it. This many heavy weapons really calls for the Mars Canticle with the Artisan Holy Order, and probably Cawl too. In 9th, everything revolves around objectives so staying back and shooting makes it hard to actually score points. You need some dedicated element to take and hold objectives.

I think a lone Knight isn't very good, both as a unit and how it warps your list construction. Because Knights are an army, every player has to be prepared to deal with 2 or 3 of them. If you bring only one, then it's easier for them to handle, especially at 2000pts. You need to have a clear purpose for that Crusader. In my opinion, you either need to take a couple Knights and use the AdMech to cover their weaknesses, or else go heavy on the AdMech and just use a lance of Warglaives.

The Knights' competitive discussion is bending toward Warglaive swarms being the best choice for 9th. A third or fourth Warglaive will make a huge difference; you get so much more value from Pack Hunters and Pack Tactics. Taranis is also a pretty bad House in 9th, especially since you can't re-roll the Stratagem. Custom houses really benefit the Warglaives, but if you keep a Knight then Krast is fine too. To answer your question, I did run Hounds of War in this list (before the FAQ):The goal of the list is to rush forward, using the Knights as a battering ram. The AdMech infantry take and hold an objective the enemy is contesting (which the Knights can't do), while the Dunecrawlers hold backfield objectives (which Knights also have trouble with). Hounds of War is ideally good to let the Warglaives fall back so you can shoot into their target. I was a huge proponent of it until I got a couple games in. In practice, a lance of Warglaives are fast enough to get the initial charge and don't leave much alive. If they get counter-charged, it's usually by something that kills them anyway. The Warglaives are just better being proactive.

To be honest, I really prefer fast, aggressive armies. I don't have a lot of experience with Kataphrons and Kastelans, and I don't think very highly of them. My advice would steer you away from them, so for fairness' sake, I'll let somebody else get a word in first.

I'm reading that many of you play with units of 5 Raiders, my question is ... why two units of 5? and not two of 6 to get the most out of the 4 boxes

I've been polishing my roster to play against dark angels tomorrow and I'm still hesitating between:

1)
Kataphron x3 (Grav)
Ballistarii x3 (Lastcannon)
Onager x2 (Icarus+Laser)

2)
Kataphron x4 (Grav)
Ballistarii x3 (Autocannon)
Onager x2 (Icarus+Icarus)

3)
Kataphron x3 x3 or x6 (Grav)
Ballistarii x2 (Lastcannon)
Onager x2 (Icarus+Laser)


in this edition I think it will be common to have many marines as a rival with their vehicles or tanks.
against marines the grav I think they are a very good option and against their tanks the autocannons.

iamanbo wrote:
I'm reading that many of you play with units of 5 Raiders, my question is ... why two units of 5? and not two of 6 to get the most out of the 4 boxes

That is entirely because I intend to kitbash two boxes of Drakespawn Knights with a box of Rangers to get 10 badass dino-riding Raiders for ~$100 instead of 12 Raiders for ~$240. Pure economics.

Personally I'm running 2x9 or 3x9 depending on my FA slots id run more if I could


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i just dont see how Tau even function in 9th.
The game is so heavily mosh-pit focused right now, Tau basically need to table you to win because you almost guaranteed will have a lot of points before they get to score any (primaries)

im glad i sold my Tau back when 8th was new. At least i got a good chunk of my money back off them lol

Tau still have cheap troops and can spam an absolute ton of S5 firepower. Sure their anti vehicle durability took a big hit. But a list focused on strike teams, kroot, vespid, gun drones, kroot hounds is going to be a solid counter to the infantry board control lists we will see a lot of.

U02dah4 wrote:
Personally I'm running 2x9 or 3x9 depending on my FA slots id run more if I could


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i just dont see how Tau even function in 9th.
The game is so heavily mosh-pit focused right now, Tau basically need to table you to win because you almost guaranteed will have a lot of points before they get to score any (primaries)

im glad i sold my Tau back when 8th was new. At least i got a good chunk of my money back off them lol

Tau still have cheap troops and can spam an absolute ton of S5 firepower. Sure their anti vehicle durability took a big hit. But a list focused on strike teams, kroot, vespid, gun drones, kroot hounds is going to be a solid counter to the infantry board control lists we will see a lot of.

I get it.

My idea is to buy 4 boxes and run with them in two units of 6, in Europe the cost of these 4 boxes in a regular store with the usual discount is about £ 115

I don't usually buy unit spam and I am afraid that 4 boxes is a lot, maybe I start with 2 boxes and run with a 6 unit, I have never played them and I don't know who I could remove from my list to make room for them

from the 8th I still doubt the usefulness of weapons without ap, I know they have other utilities but do you take advantage of two large units of 5 or 6?

 DarkHound wrote:
Hah, you introduced yourself as a beginner but you can't be that new if you're playing 2000pts. Still, with the Knights you're a man after my own heart.

Your list is very unfocused. It seems like it'd be very hard to take objectives in competitive games; it's a weakness you won't experience against Eldar since they suck at holding objectives. To make the list better, you really need to pick a direction and devote the whole army to it. This many heavy weapons really calls for the Mars Canticle with the Artisan Holy Order, and probably Cawl too. In 9th, everything revolves around objectives so staying back and shooting makes it hard to actually score points. You need some dedicated element to take and hold objectives.

I think a lone Knight isn't very good, both as a unit and how it warps your list construction. Because Knights are an army, every player has to be prepared to deal with 2 or 3 of them. If you bring only one, then it's easier for them to handle, especially at 2000pts. You need to have a clear purpose for that Crusader. In my opinion, you either need to take a couple Knights and use the AdMech to cover their weaknesses, or else go heavy on the AdMech and just use a lance of Warglaives.

The Knights' competitive discussion is bending toward Warglaive swarms being the best choice for 9th. A third or fourth Warglaive will make a huge difference; you get so much more value from Pack Hunters and Pack Tactics. Taranis is also a pretty bad House in 9th, especially since you can't re-roll the Stratagem. Custom houses really benefit the Warglaives, but if you keep a Knight then Krast is fine too. To answer your question, I did run Hounds of War in this list (before the FAQ):

Spoiler:

1496, 9CP
Super Heavy Detachment, House Husak, Glorified History, Hounds of War
Preceptor, Multi-laser, Thunderstrike, Ironstorm, 425 [Warlord: Ion Shielded; Paragon Gauntlet]
3 Warglaives, 3 Stubbers, 465
890

Patrol Detachment, Forge World Psalimit, Expansionist, Rugged Explorators
Manipulus, Transonic Cannon, 70 [Magos]
9 Ruststalkers, Chordclaws, Princeps w/ Blades, 126
10 Vanguard, 90
10 Vanguard, 90
Dunecrawler, Icarus Array, 115
Dunecrawler, Icarus Array, 115
606

The goal of the list is to rush forward, using the Knights as a battering ram. The AdMech infantry take and hold an objective the enemy is contesting (which the Knights can't do), while the Dunecrawlers hold backfield objectives (which Knights also have trouble with). Hounds of War is ideally good to let the Warglaives fall back so you can shoot into their target. I was a huge proponent of it until I got a couple games in. In practice, a lance of Warglaives are fast enough to get the initial charge and don't leave much alive. If they get counter-charged, it's usually by something that kills them anyway. The Warglaives are just better being proactive.

To be honest, I really prefer fast, aggressive armies. I don't have a lot of experience with Kataphrons and Kastelans, and I don't think very highly of them. My advice would steer you away from them, so for fairness' sake, I'll let somebody else get a word in first.

My bad I should have noted that I am not new to 40k just new to playing AdMech as my main/only army lol.

I am a big fan of that list concept you have of an aggressive in your face type army, I know you said you didn't have much experience with Kastelans but do you think that running Lucius detachment with the 4 warglaives would work since you'd be able to deep strike those Dakkabots into midfield/close up? Having the +1 invuln canticle for a couple turns might also keep them as well as one of the warglaives alive a tad bit longer.

Something like:


That leaves ~272 points to play with in a 2k list or run it at 1750. 500 points is a lot for the Kastelans but deepstriking those 36 shots with exploding 6's has to be able to kill something right lol?

Wont go back to the original but someone wanted advice earlier in other factions. The other place to look is the 1d4 chan tactics threads there's one for each army but most arnt fully updated to 9e yet.


As to castellans the risk you have is its a huge portion of your shooting and if I zone them out of the middle all you've accomplished is missing a turn if shooting

I have a hard time making good games with kastelans outside of mars, not because of the stratagem but because I always play them next to claw so they can repeat dice.
since we know the new pa and the 9th rafters my head is making a mechanized list of lucius and saving the 200p of claw in other miniatures, the problem will be that 500 kastelans points will not be so lethal but maybe the solution is to play with 3 and not with 4

Or maybe give up on them altogether and play a more skitarii focused list

U02dah4 wrote:
Or maybe give up on them altogether and play a more skitarii focused list

Kataphron, Raiders, Ballistarii, Onager, (Skorpius?), Archaeopters...

U02dah4 wrote:
As to castellans the risk you have is its a huge portion of your shooting and if I zone them out of the middle all you've accomplished is missing a turn if shooting

Definitely understand that risk but with the 4 warglaives and 8 raiders, wouldnt that be enough to clear a nice pocket for them to come in? Maybe drop the bots down to 3 and use those points on more screen clearing?

iamanbo wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Or maybe give up on them altogether and play a more skitarii focused list

Kataphron, Raiders, Ballistarii, Onager, (Skorpius?), Archaeopters...

Raiders, vanguard, corpuscarii, hoplites

i just dont see how Tau even function in 9th.

Tau and GSC have it rough atm.


@Darkhound -

Thanks for posting that! Guess I'll have to consider the Chaff Launcher. It just didn't seem like it would be that big of a help on paper so I went with Uplink. Looks like I'll try it with Chaff next time!

I'm personally going 3 x 5 raiders, exactly 5 boxes. And also mainly because taking them to 6 in a unit causes me all sorts of headaches; They're susceptible to blast and at 6 models they have to be in two rows of 3 because of coherency checks needing to be 2 models instead of 1 within 2". Also 5 is a nice footprint to manoeuvre.

One thing I noticed that I dont see the Mars-massive raising as a big benefit is that Wrath of Mars isn't an unmodified 6 so the +1 to wound on Ironstriders makes the MW trigger on a 5+. If you combine that with the unmodified 6 for an additional hit from Magos on your 5 ironstriders you can get some serious work done on tough units. Combine that with your +1 str and you're wounding everything on a 2+, exploding 6s, full re-rolls and MW on a 5+ to wound.

TheDudeAbides wrote:
I am a big fan of that list concept you have of an aggressive in your face type army, I know you said you didn't have much experience with Kastelans but do you think that running Lucius detachment with the 4 warglaives would work since you'd be able to deep strike those Dakkabots into midfield/close up? Having the +1 invuln canticle for a couple turns might also keep them as well as one of the warglaives alive a tad bit longer.

Spoiler:

AdMech Battallion - Lucius

Dominus - Divinations of the Magos, The Solar Flare
Enginseer

5x vanguard
5x vanguard
5x vanguard

4x serberys raiders
4x serberys raiders

4x Kastelan Bots
Icarus Onager
Icarus Onager

Superheavy Detachment

4x Warglaives

That leaves ~272 points to play with in a 2k list or run it at 1750. 500 points is a lot for the Kastelans but deepstriking those 36 shots with exploding 6's has to be able to kill something right lol?

I think this list is much better. I'm still not a fan of little 5 man squads of Vanguard. By themselves, they're slow and vulnerable; they won't accomplish anything. It's like taking a 135pt handicap just to fill out a detachment. If you're going to take a unit, get something that directly contributes to your gameplan.

For example, I need the Vanguard to actually make it the enemy objective, so I took a Manipulus, the Magos trait, and the custom Forgeworld trait so they can move/advance ~13" and still shoot. I took them in blocks of 10 so they'd be a better target for Acquisition At Any Cost to hold the objectives (and actually the -1 AP FW trait with canticle buffs and Rad-Saturation make them decent in close combat).

If you're going to take blocks of 5 Vanguard, I think they should have Plasma Guns and a transport. Alternatively you could drop a Dunecrawler and Vanguard, make it a Patrol, and take Destroyers as your mandatory troop. To get up to 2k, you could run 2 Vanguard squads with 4 Plasma in a Dunerider, and take Destroyers as your third troop choice. And of course, always take Monitor Malevolus on your Enginseer.

I think Lucius is an interesting choice of Forgeworld for this list. You definitely don't need to deepstrike the Robots, they've got a 36" range so you just lose a turn of shooting. Mars is the obvious offensive choice, but you might deal more total damage by keeping your units alive longer. Plus the Solar Flare will come in clutch in the end game for teleporting to a vacant objective for 5 or 10 primary points.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the Armigers are your only tool for really heavy vehicles, and they're already pulling double duty as your objective takers and assault force. You may struggle to kill something like Imperial Knights, but maybe you'll outscore them anyway.

Hey Folks,

What do you think of the below? Better than my last?

The below split across 2 patrols

Cawl
Enginseer
Daedalus
Assassin

3x5 vanguard
3x5 raider dogs
3x bomber flyers
3x belaros tanks
1x5 autocannon balistari
1x13 jazz hands priests

I have the same problem with 3x5 Vanguard as stated above. Plus you're essentially paying 2CP for 1 Fusilave since the rest of the list fits in a Battalion. Three Fusilaves will start to run out of things to drop bombs on, too. Plus, what is a Fusilave doing that your Belaros isn't?

I also think Jazz Hand Priests are worse than Sticky Bois, since you already have good shooting anti-MEQ shooting and you lack good assault units. I'd do something like 2x5 Vanguard w/ 4 Plasma in a Dunerider, 5 Rangers (maybe w/ 2 Arquebus if you can swing it), and 8-10 Fulgerites in a Dunerider. I'd drop a bomber and a squad of Raiders. You might also consider taking Furremite Cannon or two, since the Belaros is mostly competing with the Fusilaves for targets.

 DarkHound wrote:
I think this list is much better. I'm still not a fan of little 5 man squads of Vanguard. By themselves, they're slow and vulnerable; they won't accomplish anything. It's like taking a 135pt handicap just to fill out a detachment. If you're going to take a unit, get something that directly contributes to your gameplan.

For example, I need the Vanguard to actually make it the enemy objective, so I took a Manipulus, the Magos trait, and the custom Forgeworld trait so they can move/advance ~13" and still shoot. I took them in blocks of 10 so they'd be a better target for Acquisition At Any Cost to hold the objectives (and actually the -1 AP FW trait with canticle buffs and Rad-Saturation make them decent in close combat).

If you're going to take blocks of 5 Vanguard, I think they should have Plasma Guns and a transport. Alternatively you could drop a Dunecrawler and Vanguard, make it a Patrol, and take Destroyers as your mandatory troop. To get up to 2k, you could run 2 Vanguard squads with 4 Plasma in a Dunerider, and take Destroyers as your third troop choice. And of course, always take Monitor Malevolus on your Enginseer.

I think Lucius is an interesting choice of Forgeworld for this list. You definitely don't need to deepstrike the Robots, they've got a 36" range so you just lose a turn of shooting. Mars is the obvious offensive choice, but you might deal more total damage by keeping your units alive longer. Plus the Solar Flare will come in clutch in the end game for teleporting to a vacant objective for 5 or 10 primary points.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the Armigers are your only tool for really heavy vehicles, and they're already pulling double duty as your objective takers and assault force. You may struggle to kill something like Imperial Knights, but maybe you'll outscore them anyway.

Good point about the anti tank, the warglaives cant be relied on to do everything and if they get taken out first that leaves the list pretty vulnerable.

What do you think about reducing the dakkabots to 3 and adding some laser ballistarius + adding more bodies to the vanguard?

something like:



8 lascannon shots would add some anti tank shooting with the ironstriders being fast with range across the board and you get more bodies in those vanguard squads.

Also, what do you think about adding 2 more warglaives to have 6 total instead of the ironstriders?

I definitely need to invest in more warglaives next so i can test these lists out lol

iamanbo wrote:
I'm reading that many of you play with units of 5 Raiders, my question is ... why two units of 5? and not two of 6 to get the most out of the 4 boxes

there's a couple of reasons, one being the new coherencey rules dont kick in on 5 models so you can string them out better. The other being less vulnerable to blast.

TheDudeAbides wrote:
What do you think about reducing the dakkabots to 3 and adding some laser ballistarius + adding more bodies to the vanguard?

Spoiler:

AdMech Battallion - Lucius

Dominus - Divinations of the Magos, The Solar Flare
Enginseer

10x vanguard
10x vanguard
5x vanguard

4x serberys raiders
4x serberys raiders
4x Ironstriders w/lascannon

3x Kastelan Bots
Icarus Onager
Icarus Onager

Superheavy Detachment

4x Warglaives

1993 pts

8 lascannon shots would add some anti tank shooting with the ironstriders being fast with range across the board and you get more bodies in those vanguard squads. Also, what do you think about adding 2 more warglaives to have 6 total instead of the ironstriders?

The problem with the Vanguard isn't only that you don't have enough bodies, they also aren't fast enough to impact the game. ObSec (Soldiers of the Machine God) only matters if you are an objective at the same time as an enemy. Most midfield objectives are going to be 12-14" away from your deployment zone. The enemy's objectives will be 20-24" away, or 30+" in their deployment zone. Vanguard move 9.5" per turn when advancing. You need to be within 3" of an objective to contest it. So, if you line the Vanguard at the edge of your deployment zone, there is still a 50/50 chance you don't reach the objectives on your own side of the field. It will probably take the Vanguard 3 turns to get to the enemy's objectives, by which point the game is almost over.

I get away with footslogging my Vanguard because I use a Manipulus and boost their advance rolls for 12.5" average movement. They are on my objective on turn 1, and are on the opponent's objective on turn 2. I can even charge the opponent's deployment zone objective on turn 2 for extra reach. My point is that my Vanguard aren't unsupported. Alternatively, a Dunerider moves 15.5" up the board on turn 1. Then Vanguard get out 3" further on turn 2 and can move 9.5" (28" total) or charge ~13" (31.5"). Same result, you get there in time to contest your opponent's scoring. If you go first, you can even stop them from scoring their own objectives on turn their turn 2 this way. That is a huge advantage and cripples their ability to earn points.

So if you're going to footslog them then upgrade that Enginseer to a Manipulus, or else get them a transport. Otherwise, you can consider 3x5 Rangers with 6 Arquebuses. They don't help you score much, but at least they're useful guns.

I don't think the Ironstriders help that much. They're not very good in Lucius, since they only have a 6++ and don't need to deepstrike. Maybe you can try the Dunecrawlers with Neutron Lasers for better anti-T8. I'd probably go for something like this:

Say if I run vanguard in my expansionist foreword- they can fire there weapons after advancing with no penalty.

Your correct midfield objectives are 12" away you can't score till T2 they move 12"+2d6 in that time

Unless I wish to charge in which case they move 12"+d6 + charge

You need to be within 3" to control an objectives which are 40mm big so only 8" of the you'll 12" walk you'll do that most of the time t1 just Replace yourself on the line and roll a 2+ advance

You average at 19" over 2 turns 20" gets you to your opponents objective if your opponent is on that objective 15.5 with a 4-5" charge

And none of that includes a manipulous


Also In only one mission do you need to hold the objectives in your opponents deployment zone to hold more its not that essential but if I can score it T4- T5 I have slaughtered my opponent

U02dah4 wrote:
You need to be within 3" to control an objectives which are 40mm big so only 8" of the you'll 12" walk you'll do that most of the time t1 just Replace yourself on the line and roll a 2+ advance

You average at 19" over 2 turns 20" gets you to your opponents objective if your opponent is on that objective 15.5 with a 4-5" charge

And none of that includes a manipulous

A 40mm base has a radius of ~0.8". That means if the model is on the edge of the deployment zone, you need to move 8.2" to be within 3" of the objective. You can only move whole amounts, so you'd need to roll 3+ to move 9" and score. You're right, I was mistaken; it's not a 50% failure, it's a 33% failure to hold your own objective.

The closest "enemy" objective markers in the GT book are 20" away, on Retrieval Mission and Priority Target. In those missions, an average 12"+2d6 gets you within range on turn 2. Still, you'll fail to get in range 1 in 6 games.

Every other mission is 22" or more. If you send the infantry in a straight line from the closest point in your deployment zone, technically your average movement just gets you in range. Of course, 41% of the time you don't meet that 7" average and don't get there. Plus, there's going to be stuff in the way and you probably won't get a perfect straight line. Even an extra inch makes it 58% likely you'll fail. If the objective is 24" away, you fail to get there 72% of the time in the best possible case.

In two missions, footslogging infantry can get there. In every other mission, it's a coin flip or worse. That is not an effective game plan.

If you add a Manipulus, your chance of failure becomes 0% at 20", 8% at 22" and 28% at 24". If you add the Magos trait, the odds of failure become vanishingly small.

Quick question, does anything stop me from using Legio Teleportarium on multiple squads? I can't find anything specifically preventing me from doing it.

If not, I'm going to be putting several Corpuscarii squads into teleport mode.

Yes, you can use the legio teleportarion strat on multiple squads.

Mariongodspeed wrote:
Yes, you can use the legio teleportarion strat on multiple squads.

I'm just surprised people aren't abusing this in 9th.

Corpuscarii can put out serious fire power while still being good in melee. In addition to people being more cagey in 9th during deployment, it seems like a very easy choice to just throw three squads of them into teleport mode as opposed running drills and the like.

Then you can just run Breachers/Destroyers as your troops as well as other weapons platforms to provide heavy fire power. After all, a squad of 9 Corpuscarii is only 1 point more than a single Dakka Bot.

 Techpriest_ wrote:

Mariongodspeed wrote:
Yes, you can use the legio teleportarion strat on multiple squads.

I'm just surprised people aren't abusing this in 9th.

Corpuscarii can put out serious fire power while still being good in melee. In addition to people being more cagey in 9th during deployment, it seems like a very easy choice to just throw three squads of them into teleport mode as opposed running drills and the like.

Then you can just run Breachers/Destroyers as your troops as well as other weapons platforms to provide heavy fire power. After all, a squad of 9 Corpuscarii is only 1 point more than a single Dakka Bot.

It's because of a few reasons, first they take space, teleporting three squads on T2 may be difficult to have them near their desired target as they take a bit of space. Second, there's a lot of armies with interception stratagems that work within 12" and will use it. Granted they can only use it once per turn but SM can easily destroy a quad if it lands within range of something shooty.Third, the stratagem that gives the Corpuscarii AP-2 can only be used once a turn too, on a single squad, so the rest will strike at AP0 and be way less lethal.

The other big argument is you can reserve them without forcing you into lucius which as a dogma provides no benefit to corpuscarii

Just saying, the Corpuscarii without the AP2 are just as inconsistent as they were in 8E. Good only against a narrow range of T4 targets.

Anyhow, I would turn what was said on its head: you can get a Dakkabot for the price of 9 Corpuscarii. Three times the range, S7, always AP2, ignores cover, Cawl rerolls and probably Magos aura too. The Corpuscarii do get double the shots as ONE Dakkabot, but they are going to be Deep Striked or disembarked up in your opponent's face. Furthermore, Dakkabots are more efficient at scale. Consider that if you are running Dakkabots, you will be running them in a unit of 3-5; you cannot run 27-45 Corpuscarii in a single unit.

So IMO, you probably just want to run one unit of Corpuscarii. Figure out what the most dangerous T4 threat you think is out there, calculate how many you need to kill it after Deep Striking, and run that.

Really, my internal debate is still trapped on this point:

A) 5x Auto Ballistarii, 4x Dakkabot, 2x Disintegrator
B) 5x Auto Ballistarii, 3x Disintegrator, 2x Icarus Crawler, 1x Fusilave

Which one? I have been playing solitaire on my table (quarantine life), and I have noticed that I pretty much cannot fit everything in my Holy Order WLT, so I always think I will be moving those Ballistarii out to as nearby objective; it is VERY easy to conga line one of them into the 9" Cawl Bubble. The rest stay in a tight ball and gun things down.

Another thought that I had was to cut the Crawlers and go back to running 4x Dunerider, 2x10 Hoplites, 4x5 Vanguard. How much melee do we need? Worst case scenario is parking 780 points on objectives doing not much other than plinking with the Stubbers.

I love dakkabots but I’ve played some pretty terrain heavy boards recently that they would have struggled on.

You never know what you are going to get in tournaments. I’ve played on planet bowling ball before and had a table so dense with terrain I couldn’t move a knight through most of it lol

 Aaranis wrote:

 Techpriest_ wrote:

Mariongodspeed wrote:
Yes, you can use the legio teleportarion strat on multiple squads.

I'm just surprised people aren't abusing this in 9th.

Corpuscarii can put out serious fire power while still being good in melee. In addition to people being more cagey in 9th during deployment, it seems like a very easy choice to just throw three squads of them into teleport mode as opposed running drills and the like.

Then you can just run Breachers/Destroyers as your troops as well as other weapons platforms to provide heavy fire power. After all, a squad of 9 Corpuscarii is only 1 point more than a single Dakka Bot.

It's because of a few reasons, first they take space, teleporting three squads on T2 may be difficult to have them near their desired target as they take a bit of space. Second, there's a lot of armies with interception stratagems that work within 12" and will use it. Granted they can only use it once per turn but SM can easily destroy a quad if it lands within range of something shooty.Third, the stratagem that gives the Corpuscarii AP-2 can only be used once a turn too, on a single squad, so the rest will strike at AP0 and be way less lethal.

Well, consider the following in regards to the three points,

1.) Yes the space is an issue, though with 9th being very objective focused it does open up more play space for targeting things outside of priority kill targets.

2.) Priests are rather resilient and with the Lucius canticle from EW go up to a 4+ Invul save, giving them a 4+ Invul and a 5+ Feel no pain.

3.) While true for slightly more points than a single Dakka Bot you get 30 shots out of a squad of 10, with on average 30 hits thanks to the explode mechanic they have. Then depending on their toughness and your strength (as you can take the +1S canticle if you're not taking the invul save) you're on average putting out 15-20 wounds, meaning 5-7 would go through on a 3+ save, assuming you're not using the -2 Strat. Not spectacular, but that's from a squad that costs 140 points and proceeds to be annoying with its invul/feel no pain saves, so if it soaks up fire power for your Auto-Chickens or whatnot that's still pretty good.

I should also mention you can also try to make the charge with that unit, triggering the Voltgheist Field and putting out two S5 punches per model. From what I can remember you can even throw a Solar Flare on a Manipulus and improve the charge range of one of the units if it's vital. It just seems like they are a rather versatile unit with decent to strong fire power, and can be rather annoying for your opponent.

 Techpriest_ wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

It's because of a few reasons, first they take space, teleporting three squads on T2 may be difficult to have them near their desired target as they take a bit of space. Second, there's a lot of armies with interception stratagems that work within 12" and will use it. Granted they can only use it once per turn but SM can easily destroy a quad if it lands within range of something shooty.Third, the stratagem that gives the Corpuscarii AP-2 can only be used once a turn too, on a single squad, so the rest will strike at AP0 and be way less lethal.

Well, consider the following in regards to the three points,

1.) Yes the space is an issue, though with 9th being very objective focused it does open up more play space for targeting things outside of priority kill targets.

2.) Priests are rather resilient and with the Lucius canticle from EW go up to a 4+ Invul save, giving them a 4+ Invul and a 5+ Feel no pain.

3.) While true for slightly more points than a single Dakka Bot you get 30 shots out of a squad of 10, with on average 30 hits thanks to the explode mechanic they have. Then depending on their toughness and your strength (as you can take the +1S canticle if you're not taking the invul save) you're on average putting out 15-20 wounds, meaning 5-7 would go through on a 3+ save, assuming you're not using the -2 Strat. Not spectacular, but that's from a squad that costs 140 points and proceeds to be annoying with its invul/feel no pain saves, so if it soaks up fire power for your Auto-Chickens or whatnot that's still pretty good.

I should also mention you can also try to make the charge with that unit, triggering the Voltgheist Field and putting out two S5 punches per model. From what I can remember you can even throw a Solar Flare on a Manipulus and improve the charge range of one of the units if it's vital. It just seems like they are a rather versatile unit with decent to strong fire power, and can be rather annoying for your opponent.

I agree that there may be space, depends on the table size in the first place, the opposing army if it's populous and terrain. There may very well be room for them/

If you're using the 4++ yeah their survivability goes up substantially compared to a 5++ that's also true, otherwise they're still T3 and easy to wound.

However you can't boost the strength of their shooting, it's fixed S5. It's a great spot to wound most infantry on 3+ but you won't up it to 2+.

And yeah charging with them afterwards might be an automatic choice if you can do it, given there's way less overwatch than before it's worth it to try and lock a unit in CC.

I think they're great don't get me wrong, I just believe they need to be either properly supported if you're building around multiple squads. Just one squad doing it's own thing and teleporting is cool if you were going to use Lucius, but I see the value of Lucius by placing a lot of dangerous units in the teleportarium and not just one, so that on turn two you can pop their +1 save canticle, all your reserves and shoot from short range or charge. Having a Manipulus on a key location just before they strike to give them a +1" charge if you're doing this might be a good idea to enhance the odds.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
I love dakkabots but I’ve played some pretty terrain heavy boards recently that they would have struggled on.

You never know what you are going to get in tournaments. I’ve played on planet bowling ball before and had a table so dense with terrain I couldn’t move a knight through most of it lol

Funny thing is that the tank build struggles as well because those Crawler dinner plate bases are tough to maneuver. And then there is the knight base of the Fusilave. Also, I am running 3 Duneriders ontop of this.

Cutting the Crawlers for another Dunerider would make the list much more space compact. It trades some firepower for more ability to contest objectives.

What are you doing with the last hundred pts or so? Assasin maybe?

@Ideasweasel
For that list, it would be the 10 Hoplites that go into the Dunerider and an Enginseer to give the Grators and Ballistarii AP2 (this list probably can sit all of them into the castle):

Has anyone attempted to magnetise their archeopter wings? I'm just staring at my options wondering if it's going to be enough to hold them.

That list is very snazzy, and it speaks to an issue I've noticed with the Fusilave: they run out of targets. In my game against the Guard, two Fusilaves killed all the infantry, sure, but then they were useless. They really do not damage vehicles, they don't hold objectives. You can use them to screen against charges, but that's finicky. I honestly think bringing two is a liability. And unfortunately, I think both of the other flyers are at least 20 points too expensive to be playable.

With that in mind, I think this is an improvement on my earlier list:I always tend to end up more of a Knight list than AdMech.

Fusilave can body block an objective almost entirely. You sit one on the enemy-side of an objective put something of yours benind it within controlling range and they'll have to kill what begins it with guns or move and charge round the Fusilave because although ground stuff ignores it they can't end a move on it.

And if they've run out of targets, then job done. They don't need to do something else in your army's job as well.

 Aaranis wrote:

 Techpriest_ wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

It's because of a few reasons, first they take space, teleporting three squads on T2 may be difficult to have them near their desired target as they take a bit of space. Second, there's a lot of armies with interception stratagems that work within 12" and will use it. Granted they can only use it once per turn but SM can easily destroy a quad if it lands within range of something shooty.Third, the stratagem that gives the Corpuscarii AP-2 can only be used once a turn too, on a single squad, so the rest will strike at AP0 and be way less lethal.

Well, consider the following in regards to the three points,

1.) Yes the space is an issue, though with 9th being very objective focused it does open up more play space for targeting things outside of priority kill targets.

2.) Priests are rather resilient and with the Lucius canticle from EW go up to a 4+ Invul save, giving them a 4+ Invul and a 5+ Feel no pain.

3.) While true for slightly more points than a single Dakka Bot you get 30 shots out of a squad of 10, with on average 30 hits thanks to the explode mechanic they have. Then depending on their toughness and your strength (as you can take the +1S canticle if you're not taking the invul save) you're on average putting out 15-20 wounds, meaning 5-7 would go through on a 3+ save, assuming you're not using the -2 Strat. Not spectacular, but that's from a squad that costs 140 points and proceeds to be annoying with its invul/feel no pain saves, so if it soaks up fire power for your Auto-Chickens or whatnot that's still pretty good.

I should also mention you can also try to make the charge with that unit, triggering the Voltgheist Field and putting out two S5 punches per model. From what I can remember you can even throw a Solar Flare on a Manipulus and improve the charge range of one of the units if it's vital. It just seems like they are a rather versatile unit with decent to strong fire power, and can be rather annoying for your opponent.

I agree that there may be space, depends on the table size in the first place, the opposing army if it's populous and terrain. There may very well be room for them/

If you're using the 4++ yeah their survivability goes up substantially compared to a 5++ that's also true, otherwise they're still T3 and easy to wound.

However you can't boost the strength of their shooting, it's fixed S5. It's a great spot to wound most infantry on 3+ but you won't up it to 2+.

And yeah charging with them afterwards might be an automatic choice if you can do it, given there's way less overwatch than before it's worth it to try and lock a unit in CC.

I think they're great don't get me wrong, I just believe they need to be either properly supported if you're building around multiple squads. Just one squad doing it's own thing and teleporting is cool if you were going to use Lucius, but I see the value of Lucius by placing a lot of dangerous units in the teleportarium and not just one, so that on turn two you can pop their +1 save canticle, all your reserves and shoot from short range or charge. Having a Manipulus on a key location just before they strike to give them a +1" charge if you're doing this might be a good idea to enhance the odds.

The more battle reports I watch for competitive games, the more spread out things seem just because of how important objectives are, so it generally looks like you'd have room, but not to put all three squads into one unit which wasn't the intent.

That was another reason that I was looking at Lucius, as Lucius seems to have a lot of minor gains that don't feel thrilling at first, but add up to enable a lot of interesting options. Even their dogma isn't that bad, but it's not as amazing as say Stygies.

Good point, I conflated the +1S to unit stats with the new Mars one which gives it to heavy weapons. Still, could be ok in melee.

That's another thing about Lucius that has a lot of benefit that adds up over time, if you make the Manipulus your warlord, and give him the Solar Flare, you can use his ability to move units with +1" and then teleport as the Solar Flare occurs at the end of movement, to help the charge of the Corpuscarii. You can also throw it on a Dominus to re-roll without having to jog him to location to buff a -2 Strat unit, but that seems more meh.

Really what I was thinking was a list that used Breachers/Destroyers for troops, a couple Crawlers and Autocannon Chickens, then three squads of teleporting Corpuscarii. That way you get all of the heavy fire power as well as the ability to put out massive amounts of shots from those three units that are still pretty strong in melee and can have cascading saves with a 4++ followed by a 5+++. Then having some Sterylizers as well for added deep strike, not like you have to commit to teleporting or swooping, you can set them up on the board if needed without using the CP. You could also use the teleports to secure out of the way objectives with Breachers or the like.

Octovol wrote:
Fusilave can body block an objective almost entirely. You sit one on the enemy-side of an objective put something of yours benind it within controlling range and they'll have to kill what begins it with guns or move and charge round the Fusilave because although ground stuff ignores it they can't end a move on it.

And if they've run out of targets, then job done. They don't need to do something else in your army's job as well.

Yeah. Boats serve the same purpose.

Hey guys. Haven't played Admech since War Convocation days, since then they have been in storage. Last 40k game was nearly three years ago, but wanting to get back into the hobby with the fresh edition.

I've skimmed this thread, and came up with the below list with the models I have. The only purchases I would need to make are the three Duneriders. Thoughts? Wondering if I should sacrifice some fire power for an addition squad of 2x5 Vanguard + Dunerider considering the new missions and the focus on objectives?

Also, I am seeing a lot of lists running Kastelans without Datasmiths. Is the typical strategy to move them first turn to an objective/advantageous position then Binharic Override at the beginning of the shooting phase to Protector Protocol and sit there the rest of the game? Should I free up the points for the Datasmith to have the option to move them past the first turn?


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [110 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars

+ HQ +

Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, -1CP, 200pts]: Mechanicus Locum, Warlord Trait (Mars): Static Psalm-Code

Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 35pts]: Warlord, Warlord Trait (Engine War): Divinations of the Magos

+ Troops +

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 70pts]: Omnispex
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard: 2x Radium Carbine
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 2x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 70pts]: Omnispex
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard: 2x Radium Carbine
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 2x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 70pts]: Omnispex
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard: 2x Radium Carbine
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 2x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 70pts]: Omnispex
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard: 2x Radium Carbine
. 2x Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): 2x Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 60pts]: Omnispex
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard: 3x Radium Carbine
. Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 60pts]: Omnispex
. 3x Skitarii Vanguard: 3x Radium Carbine
. Skitarii Vanguard (Plasma Caliver): Plasma Caliver
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine

+ Fast Attack +

Ironstrider Ballistarii [20 PL, 325pts]
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon
. Ironstrider Ballistarius: Twin Cognis Autocannon

+ Heavy Support +

Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 500pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 120pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array

Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 120pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array

+ Dedicated Transport +

Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 100pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber

Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 100pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber

Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 100pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [110 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

This list looks fine, if a little dull. The biggest issue I can see is you have no assault elements. You're going to struggle to take and score objectives, and you're vulnerable to enemy assault units. You should probably drop the last 10 Vanguard for a unit of Hoplites or priests. You should also consider Artisan instead of Magos so your vehicles can fallback and shoot.

FAQs
Q: Can the Mechanicus Locum Stratagem be used to give
characters other than your warlord one of the Holy Order
Warlord Traits?
A: No. The Character is only considered your Warlord for the
purposes of the Warlord Trait itself, not for what Warlord Traits
it has access to.

Does this mean that if we take claw we can't use it with another character?

You can take Cawl, just don't make him your Warlord. If another character is your Warlord, you can give them a Holy Order trait. You can then use Mechanicus Locum to give Cawl his Warlord trait back.

It's a really dumb FAQ for a lot of reasons.

New FAQs

They give us a power maul for 5 points, they probably mean the arc maul.

Knight magaera and styrix are now 435 and 420 points per model.
So a magaera with siege Claw got down from 545 to 490.
Styrix with Claw from 530 to 475.

Likewise, huge Power Level drops across the board. Almost everything went down by 1 or 2 points (and some things like Ruststalkers dropped 4 points!). That makes a world of difference for my Crusade Order of Battle.

Oh great, the Sulphurhounds costs one point more with the new Arc Maul. Also completely killed all Vanguards and Rangers alphas to make all their melee weapons 5 pts, good thing I changed mine to all have the basic rifle.

Also with the changes to the Look Out, Sir! rule we can't hide our characters with vehicles or monsters that have less than 10W now. It drastically changes how I planned on protecting my Characters, which is to have them walk with the Ironstriders and Kastelan Robots. I mean they can still work as long as they're 3 or more in the unit but before that you could have your Character protected with just one.

Note, that, the unit of 3 or more is specific "a unit of 3 or more models" so ironstriders and bots still protect characters until theyre down to 2 models.

Admech suffer from that change but nowhere near as much as say Orks do, since all ork light vehicles split upon deployment and dont have the wounds either.

Still a dumb rule overall. They shoudl have specified characters are exempt from triggering that rule so a character cant protect a character, because that was literally the problem (daemon princes)

 Aaranis wrote:
Also with the changes to the Look Out, Sir! rule we can't hide our characters with vehicles or monsters that have less than 10W now. It drastically changes how I planned on protecting my Characters, which is to have them walk with the Ironstriders and Kastelan Robots. I mean they can still work as long as they're 3 or more in the unit but before that you could have your Character protected with just one.

Ah... damn. That can be a problem as the game drags on. If they snipe Cawl, it's going to be really tough.

By the way, does this means Celestine and her two minions can block for other characters now?

 Suzuteo wrote:

By the way, does this means Celestine and her two minions can block for other characters now?

Nope. They're separate units of 1 and 2 models apiece, not a 3-model squad.

So I am down to two lists. At least until I decide to buy two boxes of Raiders.

Cawlstar:

The OG Mars list. 4x Dakkabots with triple force multipliers to just delete a ton of models right away. 5x Ballistarii to snipe vehicles. 2x Grators to pummel things cowering behind ruins. 10x Hoplites and 4x5 Vanguard in Boats for assault; generally speaking, their purpose is to die cheaply. All in all, a very spartan list.

Cawl's Moving Castle:

A variation of the 8E double triple tank line. I drop Daedalosus; though I have the points for him, I think the Artisan WLT is too good in this list because virtually everything I have is BS3 and AP1. 5x Ballistarii to snipe vehicles and grab objectives, since it's unlikely I can fit them inside the aura bubble. 3x Grators to pummel things cowering behind ruins. 2x Icarus Crawlers for anti-air and anti-infantry. 2x10 Hoplites and 2x5 Vanguard in Boats for assault; infantry are much less expendable in this list because I cannot rely on the knockout punch of Dakkabots to drop an entire horde. Much less killy than a Cawlstar build, but much more durable. Probably wins the mirror.

How do you feel about armies that can ignore AP1/2 with that second list Suzuteo?

Reckon you’ve got the volume of shots to hose sisters of battle and Custodes?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
How do you feel about armies that can ignore AP1/2 with that second list Suzuteo?

Reckon you’ve got the volume of shots to hose sisters of battle and Custodes?

Honestly, that is my dilemma. Cawlstar is the meta list IMO because mortal wound spam just hard counters the Elites meta. In matchups against ignore AP2, I can even pick Artisan to go to AP3 with my Robots. The tank line is something I am more comfortable with because I have experienced firsthand how hard it is to chew threw so many vehicles. But that may be 8E thinking. It may entirely be the case that I won't be able to shoot some armies off the table in time to win. I need to get games in, but this damn pandemic is keeping me indoors.

It’s the Bay Area you stay isn’t it? You guys still on lockdown?

Where I live was doing well and it’s looking like it’s going to shut down again. Tabletop simulator just doesn’t cut it.

I’m planning on running a game later today against an iron hands list.

batallion + patrol

Daedalus
Cawl
Enginseer

4x5 squads of vanguard
3x bombers
3x belaros tanks
2x5 raiders
1x4 raiders
5x Autocannon ballistari
10x jazz hands priests

Borrowing heavily* from that RS and his mars list plans.

*stealing

Will let you know how it goes



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’ve only had 4-5 games of 9th so far in person but objectives do really seem to be important. Standing on at least 2 for the game seems essential

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
How do you feel about armies that can ignore AP1/2 with that second list Suzuteo?

Reckon you’ve got the volume of shots to hose sisters of battle and Custodes?

Honestly, that is my dilemma. Cawlstar is the meta list IMO because mortal wound spam just hard counters the Elites meta. In matchups against ignore AP2, I can even pick Artisan to go to AP3 with my Robots. The tank line is something I am more comfortable with because I have experienced firsthand how hard it is to chew threw so many vehicles. But that may be 8E thinking. It may entirely be the case that I won't be able to shoot some armies off the table in time to win. I need to get games in, but this damn pandemic is keeping me indoors.

The problem is you define the meta with little evidence currently as to what that is. there seem to be 3 different prediction of what the meta is likely to be.

The vehicle meta - the idea of this one is that 9th is as killy as 8th maybe moreso with the loss of GF LOS blocking terrain on a lot of boards, the changes to blast rules and that many vehicles can now fire in combat - as a result players will focus on durability and shooting and that means tanks and artillery. While it seems obvious to new players this is unlikely to last long because from a mission perspective its weak and most of the experienced players I know are not building to it

The transport meta - put your troops in transports now they have the speed to get to objective and the durability so that they can hold them. This works better for elites but suffers from the problem of giving optimal targets for all your opponents guns your elites get more value from it and fast infantry like guard get less. Lots of players will try this and while a solid archetype it might not be dominant

The horde meta you want to win play the mission - killing the enemy is an irrelevance if you can hold the objectives for 3 turns you win and what's good at that a ton of bodies. Even better you write off half the enemy's anti tank guns. I know a fair few competitive players building to this.

Admech can build to all three approaches and personally I'm backing the skitarii infantry/cavalry horde as the meta choice. Its got the high volume low ap firepower to shoot through the infantry lists your likely to see, the bodies to hold objectives, sure it won't be great at killing vehicles but you beat those lists by winning on primary

@U02dah4
Oh, I agree that the meta is very nascent. And my thinking is similar, but slightly different:

1) Mechanized
Tanks and transports. This is definitely more of what we saw in 8E. Very much about deleting key threats, but also has some way to control objectives and push into the enemy deployment. AdMech is pretty much in this category by default.

2) Elites
A very well-rounded, but small army. Custodes and Death Guard immediately come to mind. My friends report that these lists give them the most trouble because they give up so few secondaries. I don't think we can compete in this meta directly; our elites are bullies, not fighters.

3) Spam
Spam highly efficient troops and win by piling them onto objectives faster than your opponent can shoot them off of them. AdMech can do this through Raiders, Breachers, and a few deep strike or artillery units to delete anti-infantry threats.

--

Anyhow, mortal wound spam and high volume shooting is just as good in 9E as 8E, perhaps even better because of our Engine War buffs. I think #2 is actually going to be the biggest threat. #3 might be strong in the short term, but I don't think it will last very long. I think Cawlstar is the meta list because it performs well against these two options. On paper, anyway. My tank line list would probably where I would go for #1.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@U02dah4
Oh, I agree that the meta is very nascent. And my thinking is similar, but slightly different:

1) Mechanized
Tanks and transports. This is definitely more of what we saw in 8E. Very much about deleting key threats, but also has some way to control objectives and push into the enemy deployment. AdMech is pretty much in this category by default.

2) Elites
A very well-rounded, but small army. Custodes and Death Guard immediately come to mind. My friends report that these lists give them the most trouble because they give up so few secondaries. I don't think we can compete in this meta directly; our elites are bullies, not fighters.

3) Spam
Spam highly efficient troops and win by piling them onto objectives faster than your opponent can shoot them off of them. AdMech can do this through Raiders, Breachers, and a few deep strike or artillery units to delete anti-infantry threats.

--

Anyhow, mortal wound spam and high volume shooting is just as good in 9E as 8E, perhaps even better because of our Engine War buffs. I think #2 is actually going to be the biggest threat. #3 might be strong in the short term, but I don't think it will last very long. I think Cawlstar is the meta list because it performs well against these two options. On paper, anyway. My tank line list would probably where I would go for #1.

Denial was a big thing in 8th itc I don't think its on the same scale in 9th.

I'm building most of my admech/soup list to not give more than 12 pts away in shooting objectives.

Your going to play lists where you can shoot for 15 and thats a bonus but as you point out there will be a number where you can't so you want your lists to be able to max or close to max secondaries without resorting to shooting. 3 will dominate over 2 for that reason

Ah new FAQ: they changed AGAIN the Look Out, SIr! rules and now we can hide behind a <10W Vehicle/Monster as before. Good change.

 Aaranis wrote:
Ah new FAQ: they changed AGAIN the Look Out, SIr! rules and now we can hide behind a <10W Vehicle/Monster as before. Good change.

Lol. So I guess I can take While We Stand and pick Cawl and two Grators? =

Heavy Flamers went up to 15. So Drills are 140 now. Guess they caught the mistake.

And the Power Maul stayed a Power Maul. Hm.

The Power Maul is the weapon of the Sulphurhound Alpha, that's why.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Ah new FAQ: they changed AGAIN the Look Out, SIr! rules and now we can hide behind a <10W Vehicle/Monster as before. Good change.

Lol. So I guess I can take While We Stand and pick Cawl and two Grators? =

Heavy Flamers went up to 15. So Drills are 140 now. Guess they caught the mistake.

And the Power Maul stayed a Power Maul. Hm.

Seems like a bad call your never protecting the graters when they are worth 5vp.

That mission is only good with cheap infantry horde lists where you can play protect the enginseer without effecting performance much

U02dah4 wrote:
Seems like a bad call your never protecting the graters when they are worth 5vp.

That mission is only good with cheap infantry horde lists where you can play protect the enginseer without effecting performance much

People I know report that it's a good pick because it's usually an all-or-nothing result. Given Grators are tough, can hide out of LOS, can be repaired, and there are a multitude of other high priority threats, it can actually be quite difficult to kill them. If people get past all of my assault teams and other gunline assets to kill Cawl and my Grators in the deployment zone, then I am probably going to lose anyway.

Maybe your terrain is different but with only ruins being obscuring and most terrain having holes in it and no gf LOS blocking its almost impossible to keep a model as big as a grator out of LOS especially with players taking high mobility lists.

In addition if your hiding out of LOS your not benefitting from the full firepower of 15% of your list which is going to hurt across the game

Also relying on your opponent to target other units may work against weaker opponents but stronger opponents will be more than happy to kill them at 5vp a piece especially as your probably vulnerable to bring it down making it more of an 8 vp swing

Its a good mission if you build to it. If you have zero vehicles so 3 cheap characters become your targets which you can actually hide in terrain and protect through other units and by losing the firepower of an engineer your not really costing anything

Ruins flatout block LoS if its 5" tall now.
Just dont park the grator INSIDE it and nobody can shoot you, even if theres a bigass doorway where youre clearly visible.
Its a bit easier to sneak around the side sometimes when you arent hugging the wall but its still forcing a lot of movement to happen instead of being gunlined down.

Personally im not a fan of hiding the grator because that mortar alone is not worth the pricetag. Its got a lot of dakka thats not being used if the grator is hiding.

Yes and if their are only two ruins on the board and the rest of the terrain is some combination of: craters, woods, industrial structures, ruined walls, hills and battlefield debris.

As I said one type of terrain has obscured

If its not a ruin heavy board mobile armies will just move round and shoot you when they don't have to shoot through terrain

E.g. If a big L ruin and you can't be in it your always exposed on 3 sides unless a separate ruin blocks a different angle

Assault armies will just run through it your far more vulnerable

Speculation:

Powerswords for marines are getting +1str apparently. Since they didnt mention its been rebranded, its probably safe to assume all powerswords are that way.

Infiltrators w/ Powerswords, unless they get a price hyke, feel a lot meaner now as they just crossed that strength threshold to hurt most things very reliably.

@U02dah4
Are we forgetting how hard it is to kill a Grator? I mean, sure, if the guy is bringing a Castellan or is some flavor of Eldar or Tau that is can easily get into your backline, don't pick While We Stand. But in many matchups, it sounds like a solid choice.

@Vineheart01
Imagine if you had the choice to immediately gain 15 VP in exchange for not shooting anything but the Mortar. What would you do?

um not very its like the only vehicle in the codex without an invul save. I mean as long your opponent is some sort of astartes, Knight, custodes, admech, guard, sob, elder, tau necron chaos, GSC or orks its tissue paper.

(I admit sisters of silence may find it a challenge as will players who stuck with nids through 7th and 8th but their a special type of person)

A lot of comp armies can kill a questoris Knight in 1 turn that has 24w and an invul save and often a 2+ not based on cover

As covered its too big a surface area a model to fully hide unless your board is 90% ruin and its squishy it won't stand much. all I need is a line that doesn't go over a ruin.

I mean one turn of 3 neutron onagers without buffs, or 6 dakka bots without buffs (in double fire) or 1 knight crusader or 20 hoplites coming on from a board edge without buffs, or 30 vannila vanguard for 2 turns without buffs etc etc

All of those can be in position to kill it t3 at the latest where ever you are on the board unless your literally sealed in a corner behind a ruin but not in it

Come on. I'm not saying Grators are indestructible; nothing can survive an entire army focusing fire on it. Indeed, the fact that Knights cannot hide behind ruins is the primary reason why they are actually less survivable than <18W models.

Yes. It is very hard to draw a line across a long distance without running into ruins if you position right behind them. That is one of the key takeaways of 9E. It is a lot easier to hide, but also a lot more punishing to not engage your opponent. And it's not as if my opponent can afford to totally ignore the rest of my firebase and assault teams as well. With Dakkabots, it is easy to cover sight lines for two objectives. (Still very difficult to shoot into my opponent's deployment like I used to be able to.)

But yeah, it is dependent on terrain. But if you're on Planet Bowling Ball, you would just not take that secondary.

I think one of the key take aways of 9th is its a lot harder if not impossible to hide large vehicles.

Things now classified as industrial structures and blocking los now don't while ruin walls only block true los so shame if they have holes in

So dense terrain boards of forests and industrial buildings give minimal los blocking.

Where their are ruins even if you have a nova L style long ruin (best case scenario) your still open on 3 sides and from across the board 2/3 of your opponents army will be able to draw a line not going over obscuring terrain


And yes small thing like engineers can effectively hide from LOS. They can also be surrounded by units that have to die first.

Whats tougher than killing a greator having to kill multiple units just to target the enginseer

Downside to using characters for the While We Stand is that you cannot really use any vehicles. Lol.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Downside to using characters for the While We Stand is that you cannot really use any vehicles. Lol.

Absolutely its a mission you build to and you have to balance that against not running vehicles.

Even then it may not be the best choice as that horde list has other choices.

Personally at the team tournament I'm going to in September
im considering it in 2/5 rounds as my 3rd choice and only if a kill mission is not available.

Ya know I'm only just coming to realise the power of those Fusilave bombs. I mean it's only D3 against a vehicle/riptide but once you're out of large model count units or there are some key characacter/vehicles left: it ignores saviour protocols, ignores cloud of flies, ignores lookout sir. Not to mention cant be charged by non-fly is -1 to hit, -1 to damage and its movement and mobility means it can be in and out of harms way.

The Archeopter is about the second toughest vehicle we have after Onager, maybe even equal to considering the -1 to hit vs more wounds and invuln.

Edit: Ignores LoS as well.

It still only does 1D6 4+ for a single mortal wound against characters. And it's not actually D3 mortals to vehicles/monsters, it's 3D6 4+ per mortal which is way, way worse. Your odds of 3 mortals on D3 are 33% which go down to 12.5% on 3D6 4+. Your 33% minimum 1 damage becomes a 12.5% chance for 0 damage. Your average damage comes down from 2 to 1.3.

Spending 150 points to do about 1 mortal wound is a really bad deal. I think the Fusilave is great, but only good when it can roll 10D6 for bombs. That means vehicle squadrons of 3, or squads of 10. If an opponent doesn't have either, the Fusilave doesn't have much to do but block movement.

It's going to be interesting to see how the new 2W Marines shake up Astartes list building. As it stands, Fusilaves are hot garbage against Marine lists, which are composed of 3 or 5 man squads with multiple wounds. If cheaper Tac marines means they field 10 man squads, then at least the Fusilaves will have a target.

Hey folks.


Anyone know how flyers - flying off the board works when they return? Are they free to fly off into strategic reserves. And when they fly back are they allowed a movement phase or do they plop back in after phase?

It's actually a little convoluted because the rule is spread out over 3 different sections. They can leave the board, no problem. Then they actually return on the next turn basically like they are deepstriking. They just get placed anywhere on the board, in any orientation, more than 9" from enemy models. They count as having moved and cannot make a charge move. This means the Fusilave can't bomb anything if it has to leave the board, and infantry can't disembark from a returning Transvector. Since our aircraft can make 180 degree turns, we should never have to leave the board.

I don't think the rule has any strategic benefits, I just think it's less punishing for less maneuverable aircraft. You lose a turn of action rather than the entire vehicle.

U02dah4 wrote:
Absolutely its a mission you build to and you have to balance that against not running vehicles.

Even then it may not be the best choice as that horde list has other choices.

Personally at the team tournament I'm going to in September
im considering it in 2/5 rounds as my 3rd choice and only if a kill mission is not available.

In any case, back on topic.

I saw that Orks won 3rd and 1st recently:
https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html

The 3rd place list was a Vehicles and Transports army. Given our tanks are wayyyy scarier than theirs, with superior firepower and durability, as well as comparable speed, I am sure that we have a viable option here.

But the fact that Chaos and the winning Orks list were both Spam lists (Tzaangors and Boyz backed by characters and heavies) points to a need for us to have firepower specialized large numbers of infantry. So I think Dakkabots are still the way to go. Push up to objectives in transports while positioning the Dakkabots to pop out and gun down their army, then remain rooted in place to cover approaches; as you said, unless there are Nova L's or some large obscuring feature in the center of the table, it is trivially easy for whichever side has superior firepower to control the midboard. Constantly pressure them with Grators and Ballistarii sniping the angles.

Do you guys reckon there's still a place for Rangers with Arquebuses ? I'm thinking the usual squad of 5 with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex. Haven't played a game yet so I'm wondering if they're easier to use or the opposite, and if the targeting rules against Characters make them redundant or not.

EDIT: Also just thought about that: Mars +1S Canticle makes them S8 AP-2 Dd3, wounding T4 on 2s looks appealing to me. The number of times I've rolled 2s to wound...

@Aaranis
I also considered them. But the problem is that we cannot move them while making the best use of them. It is important in 9E for infantry to be in the midboard, fighting over objectives.

Yeah but there's always a small portion of the army not going to the objectives, all the times I've used them they never moved an inch. I deployed them on a high position so as to cover the field and threaten any character going through. Either my opponent kill them or he have to think his moves differently. Had two units like this usually and the rest of my infantry went for objectives.

i dont see running the ork tactic being very valid for admech.
Orks are hybrid, even their crappy melee is still good enough to do something. And buggies are way faster than admech stuff.
Except the Dragoon/Fistbot, admech vehicles blow a fat one in melee and our ways of falling back and shooting are warlord or dogma-canticle locked.

When i run buggy lists as orks i actually want you to charge them because that generally over-extends your neck for my slower, deadlier melee behind the buggies to catch you. Nothing in admech rings a similar bell to me.

I'm going to do some maths tonight to see if playing Ryza is worth it. I really like the AP-1 Canticle, and as it gives help to plasma weapons too I'm thinking an agressive mechanised list might be the way to go. I'll keep you updated !

@Aaranis
Yeah, but just having 1-2 units of idle snipers is not actually enough to impact the game in an appreciable way. You need like 6-8 Arquebusiers at the very least.

I can totally see a list with Bombers, Raiders, and Boats with Plasma Vanguard and Electro-Priests. Alas, Stygies is still probably the way to go. You want to Scout move your entire army before turn one.

There's a quote from the US Civil War concerning the primary rule of maneuver warfare: "Get there first with the most men."

@Vineheart01
Well, tanks don't need 12" move, though our Duneriders do have that. That said, you are right that our vehicles do not ram nearly as well, but we also have way better guns, and this is 9E.

 Aaranis wrote:
Do you guys reckon there's still a place for Rangers with Arquebuses ? I'm thinking the usual squad of 5 with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex. Haven't played a game yet so I'm wondering if they're easier to use or the opposite, and if the targeting rules against Characters make them redundant or not.

EDIT: Also just thought about that: Mars +1S Canticle makes them S8 AP-2 Dd3, wounding T4 on 2s looks appealing to me. The number of times I've rolled 2s to wound...

Not really mostly because vanguard are the same points now so vanguard with arquebuses are better.

The only role I can see for rangers is in an expansionist fw in which they get the 6" ore game move to guarantee getting to objectives but even then egged explorers and vanguard is probably better

U02dah4 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Do you guys reckon there's still a place for Rangers with Arquebuses ? I'm thinking the usual squad of 5 with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex. Haven't played a game yet so I'm wondering if they're easier to use or the opposite, and if the targeting rules against Characters make them redundant or not.

EDIT: Also just thought about that: Mars +1S Canticle makes them S8 AP-2 Dd3, wounding T4 on 2s looks appealing to me. The number of times I've rolled 2s to wound...

Not really mostly because vanguard are the same points now so vanguard with arquebuses are better.

How do you figure that? The issue with Vanguard over Rangers has to do with Carbines just being an overall better gun to bring on troop fodder that needs to get out into the middle of the board compared to Galvanic Rifles, but the opposite is true on squads bringing Transarqs, because they don't want to move so at equal point cost between the two, having shots at 30" vs. not having shots at 30" I think is pretty clear cut.

On the subject of Vanguards, though, that D2 on 6s is making them look even better over Rangers for the aforementioned role now that the most common armies in the game are 2W minimum across the board. Makes me start thinking about Rad-Saturation worlds with Scarifying Weapons and Omnispexes.

Vanguard are better in CC

Vanguard are objectively better VS almost any target within 18"

Vanguard have assault weapons

Assuming you place your squad in terrain not against the back board your probably covering most or at least a good portion of the objectives. Which gives you targets

The extra range on the rangers giving you 3 Shots when your opponent is between 18-30 make very little difference. Because the guns are so ineffectual

U02dah4 wrote:
Vanguard are better in CC

You want your Transarqs exposed to CC why, exactly?

U02dah4 wrote:
Vanguard are objectively better VS almost any target within 18"

Vanguard have assault weapons

I don't know why you're talking about points I already acknowledged as being reasons to take Vanguard over Rangers for squads not bringing Transarqs. Neither of those are relevant for squads that do, as they will primarily be operating at ranges greater than 24".

U02dah4 wrote:
Assuming you place your squad in terrain not against the back board your probably covering most or at least a good portion of the objectives. Which gives you targets

Not for the 18" Carbines, though. I definitely don't put my Transarqs that far forward, there's no reason to, I have Vanguard in that position instead for the exact reasons you went over. They stay in my deployment zone, with good coverage for the snipers, preferably in terrain as you said, and once the opposing army has moved the galvanic rifles will get to make shots too.

U02dah4 wrote:
The extra range on the rangers giving you 3 Shots when your opponent is between 18-30 make very little difference. Because the guns are so ineffectual

I agree, three shots makes little difference, but it makes more difference than identical bodies that do absolutely nothing at 18-30".

With Marines going to 2W, there is no reason to bring Rangers in any context now.

You don't want them exposed to CC but many enemies will want to expose them to CC so in some games it may happen and in those games vanguard is better

My point was that they will primarily be operating within 18" with only the sniper rifle firing beyond so you clearly missed the point


You want them in terrain ideally an advance away from an objective so in the right situation you can make a last minute
grab at the expense of a sniper shot

You gain no advantage by having them back your not using them to their fullest and you cant get them far enough back on smaller board to really protect them

99% of games 18"covering 3 or 4 objectives will give you an enemy to target every round except t1 if your going first. 30" just gives you slightly more choice but one turn of vanguard firing is = 2-3 turns of rangers at 15-30

That said, Vanguard + Hoplites are amazingly good against T4 in melee. I mean, see how they compare to Assault Intercessors:

2x5 Assault Intercessors (200)
WS3+
32 S4 AP1 attacks
T4 10x2W, 3+

2x5 Vanguard (90) + 10x Hoplites (100)
WS3+
12 S3 attacks; -1T aura
21 S6 AP1 attacks
T3 10x1W, 4+
T3 10x1W, 4+/4++ with mortals on 6

Against shooty Intercessors, it's not even a contest. Once you're in melee, they're down and out.

Alright did a bit of maths to support my Ryza army idea and came with a few results. I calculated four ways: baseline, rerolls to Hit (either Omniscient Mask or Prime Hermeticon), rerolls 1s to Wound (Ryza), and rerolls 1s to Wound combined with +1AP (Ryza optional Canticle). I'll list them from best to worst and will post the result of the optimal conditions (tell me if you want the rest of the maths but I'm too lazy to write it here):

1st - 10 Fulgurite Electro-Priests (140 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 24,2 wounds, 5,79 pts/w

2nd - 5 Pteraxii Sterylizors (100 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T3 5+: 12,62 wounds, 7,62 pts/w (+ 8,89 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 4,65 pts/w)
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 7,37 wounds, 13,57 pts/w (+ 3,87 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 8,9 pts/w)

3rd - 5 Sicarian Ruststalkers (70 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 6,93 wounds, 10,1 pts/w

4th - 2 Sydonian Dragoons (140 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 10,37 wounds, 13,5 pts/w

5th - 5 Sicarian Infiltrators with Tasers (100 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T3 5+: 11,89 wounds, 8,42 pts/w (+ 5,56 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 5,63 pts/w)
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 5,7 wounds, 17,54 pts/w (+ 1,85 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 13,26 pts/w)

I place the Fulgurites 1st despite not having ranged weapons because of the sheer destructiveness they bring in CC. I didn't count the mortal wounds on the charge because it depends on the size of the unit, but for a unit of 5 you'd have 0,83 mw. With the optimal conditions, a unit of 10 wipes more than 10 Intercessors on the charge, and would do serious damage to units of Gravis, Terminators and such. Just beware that to give them rerolls to Hit you must use Prime Hermeticon, which only works on <Infantry> but if you don't plan on running Dragoons or benefitting Cavalry it's alright.

The Sterylizors come 2nd, these guys are really great to shred anything T3.They'd wipe whole squads of them easily, and have a lot of utility beyond that: Fly, able to lock an Infantry unit in CC with 1CP, ignore cover on the flamers... They're just better Infiltrators, and do more damage against MEQ, which the formers struggle to take down with Tasers. Don't forget you can theoretically put 10 of them in a Dunerider, if you manage to fit all 10 entirely within 3" of the transport when disembarking (don't know if it's possible).

Sicarian Ruststalkers take the 3rd place, at my pleasant surprise. They're so cheap now (70 pts for 10 wounds make them way cheaper than Vanguards, wounds-wise) that just having 2 units harassing the opponent from Reserves might be interesting in a Ryza list. I wouldn't care if my opponent shot at them given their price. The usual problems though is that they don't have shooting or innate DS, but both problems can be solved with the liberal usage of Duneriders once more. I noticed the two Swords did slightly more damage on average on MEQ than the Razor + Chordclaw.

At the 4th place come Sydonian Dragoons. Even if they've been severely nerfed by the loss of their exploding 4-5-6s and of the -2 to Hit, I can still see a use for them in a Ryza list, focused on pure aggressiveness. See, most of our assault elements are quite flimsy before they're engaged in CC but Dragoons still are cheap T6 6W platforms with a -1 to be Hit, and are FAST. Their huge footprint makes thems good to block the way. With S8 AP-1 (or-2 with Ryza) and 2D they can threaten a wider variety of targets and finish off vehicles and monsters. I'd use 2-3 of them in a single unit to go die gloriously somewhere that would bother my opponent. If you want to tarpit a bit don't forget they can spend a CP to be -1 to Hit in CC now.

And at last at the 5th place come Infiltrators (Tasers). Sadly the nerf to Tasers and the coming of Sterylizors made them pointless. Everything they do, Sterylizors do better. There might be a niche use for them with Power Swords, but they're only slightly better against MEQ, and even then they still don't fly, can't lock in CC, and don't ignore cover in shooting. There might be a use for them if their power Swords gain +1S like the Marines do, but nothing's certain yet.

Honourable mention: Secutarii Hoplites. I didn't include them in the ranking because sadly Ryza brings them nothing more due to the lack of <Forge-World> keyword. They're still really great and pack an average of 12,96 wounds against T3 E5, and 6,22 against T4 3+, in CC with rerolls to Hit. They're fairly durable, cheap, are a threat to everything under T6 and have the numbers to charge and contest an objective. I hope they'll see the addition of the <Forge-World> keyword in the future, but that'd warrant an increase in points I wager.

I prefer Hoplites as they are right now. Cheap and efficient as hell.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I prefer Hoplites as they are right now. Cheap and efficient as hell.

You don't want them to have exploding 5-6s to Hit ?

Not if it means they cost 13 ppm like they probably should.

That I can understand !

Anyway, I'll try to write one or two lists around Ryza and these units to see what I can come up with.

 Aaranis wrote:
Alright did a bit of maths to support my Ryza army idea and came with a few results. I calculated four ways: baseline, rerolls to Hit (either Omniscient Mask or Prime Hermeticon), rerolls 1s to Wound (Ryza), and rerolls 1s to Wound combined with +1AP (Ryza optional Canticle). I'll list them from best to worst and will post the result of the optimal conditions (tell me if you want the rest of the maths but I'm too lazy to write it here):

1st - 10 Fulgurite Electro-Priests (140 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 24,2 wounds, 5,79 pts/w

2nd - 5 Pteraxii Sterylizors (100 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T3 5+: 12,62 wounds, 7,62 pts/w (+ 8,89 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 4,65 pts/w)
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 7,37 wounds, 13,57 pts/w (+ 3,87 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 8,9 pts/w)

3rd - 5 Sicarian Ruststalkers (70 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 6,93 wounds, 10,1 pts/w

Spoiler:

4th - 2 Sydonian Dragoons (140 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 10,37 wounds, 13,5 pts/w

5th - 5 Sicarian Infiltrators with Tasers (100 pts):
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T3 5+: 11,89 wounds, 8,42 pts/w (+ 5,56 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 5,63 pts/w)
- RR to Hit + RR 1s to Wound + AP+1 vs T4 3+: 5,7 wounds, 17,54 pts/w (+ 1,85 wounds in shooting, which would bring them at 13,26 pts/w)

I place the Fulgurites 1st despite not having ranged weapons because of the sheer destructiveness they bring in CC. I didn't count the mortal wounds on the charge because it depends on the size of the unit, but for a unit of 5 you'd have 0,83 mw. With the optimal conditions, a unit of 10 wipes more than 10 Intercessors on the charge, and would do serious damage to units of Gravis, Terminators and such. Just beware that to give them rerolls to Hit you must use Prime Hermeticon, which only works on <Infantry> but if you don't plan on running Dragoons or benefitting Cavalry it's alright.

The Sterylizors come 2nd, these guys are really great to shred anything T3.They'd wipe whole squads of them easily, and have a lot of utility beyond that: Fly, able to lock an Infantry unit in CC with 1CP, ignore cover on the flamers... They're just better Infiltrators, and do more damage against MEQ, which the formers struggle to take down with Tasers. Don't forget you can theoretically put 10 of them in a Dunerider, if you manage to fit all 10 entirely within 3" of the transport when disembarking (don't know if it's possible).Sicarian Ruststalkers take the 3rd place, at my pleasant surprise. They're so cheap now (70 pts for 10 wounds make them way cheaper than Vanguards, wounds-wise) that just having 2 units harassing the opponent from Reserves might be interesting in a Ryza list. I wouldn't care if my opponent shot at them given their price. The usual problems though is that they don't have shooting or innate DS, but both problems can be solved with the liberal usage of Duneriders once more. I noticed the two Swords did slightly more damage on average on MEQ than the Razor + Chordclaw.

This is a good breakdown. I did similar math a dozen pages back. However, my math comes out different on the Ruststalkers. Given that Marines are moving up to W2 universally, I think you have to include the D3 damage rolls. Under your conditions, I got 7.8 wounds or 8.97 points per wound. Because the math gets finicky (some wounds are mortal, some are multi-damage, some are neither), here are my calculations:I think there are two important caveats that put Ruststalkers higher on the list for me. First being that shooting can easily put you out of charge range, especially if you used Deepstrike to arrive. This is an even bigger deal in 9th because charging is the most efficient way to clear and capture an objective in one turn. The second is related and specific to Sterylizors: your assault units will be charging objectives and will have to weather counter-charges. Sterylizors suck hard if they are not charging.

For dedicated objective taking assault units, I'd rank the top 3 as Fulgerites, Hoplites, and Ruststalkers. I think the 3 are pretty even, and different lists will tip the scales towards one or the other.

How many and how large should our assault teams be? Obviously, there are a variety of threats out there, but I often see efficient unit spam or elites backed by a horde.

I recently got the idea to move to a Spearhead:

The idea here is to try to fit five Serberys Riders in to screen melee. I am also trying to fit a second Hoplite unit in.

Downside is that I cannot bring force multipliers like Daedalosus and Enginseer with a HOWLT. In order to do that, I can drop the Grators for 2x Crawlers. Crawlers are much more efficient, but they sorta serve the same role as Dakkabots.

Another option is to drop a Ballistarii for an Enginseer and 2x Serberys Raiders.

I think 20 Hoplites is just enough at 2000pts, but you'll have to be precise about how you use them. That's not a criticism itself, it's just the nature of AdMech. You'll be able to assault two objectives during the game, almost certainly no more than that, so make them count.

That list is almost great looking, but the Spearhead as your only detachment bugs me. Is that second Disintegrator actually worth 3CP to bring? If you swap it out for a Fusilave 1 for 1, you gain 3CP and fit the entire 2000pt army in a Patrol (lol).

That is actually a hilarious suggestion.

And I should have 9 CP in that list above. Haha.

But here's how it looks as a Patrol:

Alright I made my first draft of a Ryza list, let me know what you think of it please:



I don't own half the models here so not gonna test it any soon but I wonder if it'd work. The idea would be to push all the assault elements early in the first turn under cover of Shroudpsalm, and on turn two, cracking the AP+1 Canticle, disembarking/DS and charging with the +1" charge from the Manipulus, who'll try to keep up to give rerolls too. The Dominus stays with the shooty vehicles and gives his reroll 1s to Hit + the +1AP at mid-range. The Plasma Vanguards can be used to bring additionnal pressure if needed with the Ryza plasma stratagem. I wanted to have 4 more plasma guns but needed the points the fit the Onagers.

@Aaranis
You might want 10x units of Vanguard with 3x Plasma Calivers since this is a Ryza army. Plasma Specialists is fierce. Omnispex might also matter.

You don't need an Outrider if you move the Balistarii and Sterilizers into the Batallion and one unit of Vanguard out. Make a Patrol instead. In fact, you can probably get away with two Patrols:


Saves you 1 CP and frees up 21 points because there's no deadweight Enginseer now; you free up one Raider, but take on 2x Caliver and 2x Omnispex. Serberys Raiders also can make better use of the Obliqua strategem. (I actually am seeing lists consolidate those units since they have lots of wounds and only one use of that key stratagem.)

Thanks for the advice, didn't think about the two Patrols but that's an excellent idea. I'm still learning with the new detachments and their CP cost.

As for the plasma, it's a question of "More plasma, or a better plasma ?" but you're right, ignoring cover and blasting 6 shots at S8 +1to Wound and 3D ought to make some damage in the right place.

Good idea about the Raiders, I was thinking two of 5 to cover more ground, but once more the use of the stratagem is better spent as you said.

What do you think about the list in itself though ?

 Aaranis wrote:
Thanks for the advice, didn't think about the two Patrols but that's an excellent idea. I'm still learning with the new detachments and their CP cost.

As for the plasma, it's a question of "More plasma, or a better plasma ?" but you're right, ignoring cover and blasting 6 shots at S8 +1to Wound and 3D ought to make some damage in the right place.

Good idea about the Raiders, I was thinking two of 5 to cover more ground, but once more the use of the stratagem is better spent as you said.

What do you think about the list in itself though ?

if you're not using Plasma specialists to its fullest is it worth looking at Expansionist forgeworld + Rugged Explorers?

Ryza is giving you the canticle for +1ap in combat, Expansionist Forgeworld gives you it any time you charge or are charged freeing your canticle choice to be +1 str for a turn your sterylizors didn't charge or to give them RR1s to hit. Rugged explorers allows your vanguard and Raiders to advance and still shoot at 3+ which for something like Raiders gives them a huge mobility benefit.

Not to mention the expansionist +1 ap free up your canticle to make Sterylizors Str 6 and ap -2 on the charge or when charged.

Octovol wrote:
if you're not using Plasma specialists to its fullest is it worth looking at Expansionist forgeworld + Rugged Explorers?

Ryza is giving you the canticle for +1ap in combat, Expansionist Forgeworld gives you it any time you charge or are charged freeing your canticle choice to be +1 str for a turn your sterylizors didn't charge or to give them RR1s to hit. Rugged explorers allows your vanguard and Raiders to advance and still shoot at 3+ which for something like Raiders gives them a huge mobility benefit.

Not to mention the expansionist +1 ap free up your canticle to make Sterylizors Str 6 and ap -2 on the charge or when charged.

That's a good idea, however the reroll 1s to Wound makes a decent amount of additional damage, especially with Fulgurites when rerolling a 1 into a 6 gives more MWs. But you're right that it'd be more reliable to have the additional AP as a trait rather than a Canticle. The secondary traits don't fit the idea of my list though, the Vanguards shouldn't have to Advance in this list (they're either in a Dunerider or charging alongside another assault unit) and the Raiders won't have many occasions to do it neither.

And I like the idea of having two units full plasma, it's a sort of joker card when I need a sudden boost in firepower somewhere. I don't want to include Ryzaphrons though, they need too much support to fit in the list.

I like the custom Forge-Worlds, there's really some interesting things in there. Another idea I had was a list with Dragoons, Ironstriders, Duneriders and all the vehicles you can fit and play the traits that give Vehicles a 6+++, maybe coupled with the Cognis weapons rerolling their hits at mid-range.

Never underestimate reroll wounds of any sort.
GW grossly undervalues it. Things that get it tend to be scarily lethal.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Never underestimate reroll wounds of any sort.
GW grossly undervalues it. Things that get it tend to be scarily lethal.

Indeed ! Which is why I'm hoping our future Skitarii Primus will give us rerolls to Wound if it doesn't give another cool effect (would love something more original then rerolls).

I did a bit more maths as I wanted to know if building a list around the explosive Arc weapons for Skitarii was worth it, and such compared them to Plasma calivers. First I did a quick comparison between Vanguards and Rangers to see which were more lethal, and Vanguards win against both GEQ and MEQ hand down. As long as they're the same price, you're always better off picking Vanguards over Rangers except if you have some niche use for them.

So the maths for a squad of 5 Vanguards including 2 of each special weapon:

Plasma caliver vs Arc rifle (all rerolls 1 to Hit and considering +1 AP at half-range with Artisan):
5 Vanguards with 2 Plasma calivers (standard) – 65 pts , vs E4 3+ : 3,82 wounds or 17,02 pts/wound
5 Vanguards with 2 Plasma calivers (overcharged) – 65 pts, vs E4 3+ : 6,94 wounds or 9,37 pts/wound
5 Vanguards with 2 Arc rifles – 55 pts, vs E4 3+ : 3,13 wounds or 17,57 pts/wound
5 Vanguards with 2 Arc rifles (exploding) – 55 pts, vs E4 3+ : 3,82 wounds or 14,4 pts/wound

As you can see the exploding Arc rifles are only better than the Plasma calivers when you're not Overcharging them, and considering we're shooting Marines here we'll overcharge them.

Other than that I'm surprised at the amount of damage 65 pts of Vanguards can do. Granted, here they're near a Dominus, and at half-range to have the additional AP, but it's surprising. Enhancing AP is one of the best ways to drastically improve a weapon.

In my Engine War book (in French) most of the auras for the Magos traits say "all MODELS within 6" of the bearer", is it the same in English ? If it is I should lower my enthousiasm as it's way harder to fit whole squads withing reach of the Artisan Magos.

Yes most effects target models not units

Wow i didnt even notice that. That pretty much doesnt affect the vehicle-castle but virtually makes the holy traits useless on infantry.
Thats...really dumb...

Yup. Goes to why I said that taking multiple Holy Order traits with Mechanicus Locum isn't that powerful. It's actually pretty hard to stack the damaging effects, and castling is punished in 9th. In practice, you'd rather have your traits spread out trying to utilize their modes properly to get value.

Post FAQ, Magos is the default because the exploding 6s is most widely applicable to our firebase. Artisan is a close second because the damage bonus is competitive with Magos, plus you get the Fallback utility.

The others were only borderline in 8th when we took way more HQs anyway. Genetor for Kataphrons is pretty much dead with the loss of specialist detachments. Logos is cool, but so niche. I'd love to have it as a pocket utility against psykers, but you'd never take it as the sole trait.

It still just bugs me that they wasted all this potential and design space they created.

HOWLTS are useless on big blobs of infantry. Very good for a concentrated firebase of vehicles though.

Anyhow, I would take an Enginseer over a Daedalosus in most cases because of Cawl rerolls and the broad applicability to your entirely firebase.

Generally speaking, you take Magos or Artisan if you run Robots. Artisan otherwise. I don't think that exploding hit is as good as the second point of AP in most of my firebase, which is light on AP and does not ignore cover. Robots are the exception here, as they are AP2 already and ignore cover.

After measurement there's still quite a few dudes we can fit within 6", they don't have to be entirely within neither so that's still doable for infantry. I hope they'll change that in our future codex though.

I think they do it on purpose to guide players toward their vision of what AdMech armies should look like. Most AdMech infantry just aren't powerhouse units that you care about buffing, especially compared to our other staples. Our best infantry are all melee units, and consequently the only damage buff that affects an entire unit is the melee buff in Genetor. In the rest of the book, the only other damage buffs that affect whole units are Prime Hermeticon and Omniscient Mask, both for melee.

Even if the buffs worked on infantry, who would you even bother buffing? You already see this with Cawl lists. We've basically just got Rangers, and they're not strong enough to build around. All you'd encourage is keeping the infantry castled with the tanks for a minor improvement. They don't want to encourage castling, and "per model" discourages it. Buffing infantry shooting is difficult, buffing melee infantry is easy. If your infantry are in melee, you aren't castling, and the game is more engaging for both players.

Oh yes I love the melee aspect of the game, and am trying to build towards it. I disagree with our infantry though, Rangers for one are worse than Vanguards, did the maths not long ago and they're worse against GEQ and MEQ at least, which are the two main profiles we'll encounter. Vanguards with plasma and some AP (given by either the Irradiated Forge-World or the Artisan) are really great for their cost. Sure they're no SM Veterans but building list around good, cheap infantry is possible I'd say.

But yeah our best infantry are melee and are Fulgurites and Hoplites, no questions. Now that Ryzaphrons are less desirable we've lost that too. I don't know if Breachers lists are still around or not. And now that we have cheap transports it doesn't surprise me that we're considered top meta in this early 9th edition. Though I bet Ironstriders and Raiders are what mostly carries us. Luckily they're cheap enough to justify bringing a handful whatever our list may be. I know I'll keep the Autocannons in a Ryza list, it needs ranged support and they're excellent, especially with the news that all MEQ are going up in wounds, the Autocannons with Artisan's AP are made for the job.

Lugging around a unit of 2-3 Kastelan Robots with HPB around the Artisan look interesting to me, now that they ignore the -1 for moving there's no reason to keep them pinned from T1. Have them move around and shoot at people in cover with S6/7(Mars) AP-2/3 guns is still a great way to whittle infantry down.

I'm glad we have so many options to ignore cover now, most of the new units and content in Engine War allows that, be it Phosphor weapons, Omnispex, the stratagem for the Disintegrator to ignore cover and get +1 to hit if it focus fire... With the emphasis on terrain and the fact that Raven Guards are still around it's good to have counters.

I think the ideal unit size for Kastelan Robots is 4.

This is because of Strategic Reserves, For 3 CP, you can hide your Robots for turn one and outflank them on turn two. Given how small the table is, there are many options to secure an outflanking position with good sight lines in two turns of movement with the rest of your army, which is relatively fast.


Oh, and for 1 more CP, you can also hide Cawl, an Enginseer, and an MSU of Vanguard.

So ive played a couple of games now, although at 1k because it doesnt take as much time.
The board for 1k games is too small though and I really struggled not only to deploy, but also to deepstrike. That and any above average in speed unit will be in combat turn one.

My other main takeaways will also be important for bigger games.
It might be worth to go with artisan over Magos, if you have a lot of blast and low AP weapons, like belleros boats. Otherwise Magos is great for damage, but also to advance better onto objectives if needed ( especially if your firebase gets focused down)

Units:
Vanguard will still be great for past reasons, but D2 will be good for marines too. Snacking front objectives away with obsec is great (eg. a Rhino is sitting on one and you rather direct your firepower into sth else)
Terrax Drill is great, especially with all those elite coming along. I will use mine with the D2 volkite chargers.
Fusilave with commanduplink, Skystalkers, sterilyzors and even ruststalkers are good if you take a single unit for their respective stratagems and engage on all fronts( ruststalkers, and x-101 is good to use for actions)
One unit of raiders is a must have for any non stygies list for charge deterrants.
One way I like to use my icarus crawlers now is just to use their big base sizes to block movement and along with their resilience they can just shoot into combat at a 4+.
Having a small unit of grav destroyers and lascannon ironstriders ( if you dont run martian autocannon squads) is great to have as they are easy to hide behind los blocks.

Have you guys been keeping up with the tournament results? Goonhammer's been doing good analysis of the data. AdMech's aggregating a winrate of ~44-46% depending on the source. That's made it harder to get ahold of the army lists for autopsy.

The couple pure AdMech army lists I've seen have been garbage, despite placing with (barely) winning records. They tend to use only a box or two of the new units, and are slap-dash composed of 3 man Kataphrons squads, a bunch of random 5 man Rangers, and a couple Kastellans and Disintegrators.

It's easy to say as an armchair general, but it seems like the AdMech lists just aren't trying and that win rate isn't reflective of the faction's power. They lists just aren't up to date for 9th or the Marine/Death Guard/Custodes meta.

I haven't seen Siegler post any results with AdMech. The highest scoring consistent player is Cullen Burns, but I haven't been able to find his army list.

Their are very few tournaments therefore much more than normal small events will be represented- however these don't represent the faction

There are different opinions on what will work the Mars shooty list is what the playtesters tested but truth is its terrible at the missions for all its killy. Myself im favouring infantry soup as it might not be as killy but its much more able to score VP. The truth is we need a lot of data to work whats best out and there just arnt enough events.

It also takes time for new units to be painted ive only just finished my 27 raiders if I'd wanted to use other units it would take me another few weeks.

I can't see any of the new units other than raiders routinely making it into my lists because their mediocre at best and I'm not wasting FA slots on anything that isn't a raider

U02dah4 wrote:
Their are very few tournaments therefore much more than normal small events will be represented- however these don't represent the faction

There are different opinions on what will work the Mars shooty list is what the playtesters tested but truth is its terrible at the missions for all its killy. Myself im favouring infantry soup as it might not be as killy but its much more able to score VP. The truth is we need a lot of data to work whats best out and there just arnt enough events.

It also takes time for new units to be painted ive only just finished my 27 raiders if I'd wanted to use other units it would take me another few weeks.

I can't see any of the new units other than raiders routinely making it into my lists because their mediocre at best and I'm not wasting FA slots on anything that isn't a raider

3 x 9? Thats a big investment for something that's not all that proven yet lol. I went for 3 x 5, but I only play 1000-1500 point battles so 3 x 9 is a lot of points for those matches. I was only comparing wound to points/power with the other people in my group and Admech comes out 30+ more wounds at 1000pts than any of the other factions (Orks, Drukhari, Tau, Death guard) 107 wounds in 1000pts lol.


In other news, I'm a little annoyed that everyone's flamers are going to 12", guarantee ours wont get anything added to them to keep their specialness. All these imperium weapon updates are doing is making our stuff less special :|

Low points per W

Decent character sniping

Very high mobility

It doesn't need to be proven its probably our best unit

for me they only have one problem, and that is that they are not line or infantry hahahahahaha

I would like to play 3x5 but I find a problem, the ballistarii are also very good and either we play outrider or we would have to play with less cps, this last option seems difficult to me since pure admech needs all the possible cps.

for me in this edition and right now raiders and ballistarii are the must of our army.

In my last games I made a mix between raiders, ballistarii, armiges warglaive and wardens.

two games, two victories against eldar and dark angels

Cawl is our best unit.

But seriously, a single unit of Raiders is probably all you need unless you intend to spam them for their wounds. The problem with them is that they are not Troops, not infantry, and are better at avoiding melee than they are fighting it.

Their a blocker and a character killer. If they are in the way you can slow the enemy down

Sure. But most armies won't need 240-432 points worth of them.

U02dah4 wrote:


I can't see any of the new units other than raiders routinely making it into my lists because their mediocre at best and I'm not wasting FA slots on anything that isn't a raider

if you mean the other fast attack slot new stuff I'd agree. Ballistari are still great otherwise. As for other new stuff the bomber has been ace so far. I can see why seigler wants to run 3

Hey guys, an overall question:

what to do against space marines? i played on sunday against them, ohhhhh boy....

he had first turn and i got wrecked, after that we played again, same deploy all the same but now i started, was much more playable but is the only thing to do against them to have first turn?

 Hesselhof wrote:
Hey guys, an overall question:

what to do against space marines? i played on sunday against them, ohhhhh boy....

he had first turn and i got wrecked, after that we played again, same deploy all the same but now i started, was much more playable but is the only thing to do against them to have first turn?

You might have to give us more than that lol

What did you have and what did they have?

KK =)

i thought there are general tips against them

My list:


Marines



My list works pretty well (for me), played some games with, because i want to go on tourney with, but i gernerally have problems with marines

And this was the deployment: (i guess you see my deployment fail on the left side =/ completly forgot the MoA)

my games against loyal marines are almost always against dark angels. The list you show us does not have bad units, but why don't you use a single battalion? are you using two different forge worlds? optimize cps, they are always needed with admech.
if you have any grav cannon I would include it, it works very well against them.

if you fight against vehicles you may need to put a laser instead of the icarus, the ballistarii are not enough if you want to do damage in turn 1 or 2

if you play a single battalion you save 135p from the skitarii

The electro priest in drill works very well but if you need points remember that for 1cp you can take them out on the edge of the table in T2

if you play claw you want to play kastelans, if not ... you can save 200p

In short, against marines, both the kastelans + belisarius and the grav cannon always do a lot of damage, if you fight against vehicles, put some laser to help the ballistarii and lower the skorpius to shoot without line of sight to the units that hide

Thx for reply,

kicking cawl could be a real option, but how could it be granted to get the mars canticle + shroudpsalm without +1/-1?

are there any experience? maybe chorister tecnis?

You don't have any damage 3 attacks, and that's a problem with AdMech in general. The game is going to revolve around how fast you can kill the Eradicators and Aggressors.

The fact that the most important targets are T5 ruins the breakpoint advantage of Mars' Str canticle. The highest placing AdMech I've seen in the GT summaries was actually allied Ryza Kataphrons allied to Salamanders. Kicking Plasma up to D3 makes them perfect against Gravis armor like Eradicators and Aggressors. It seems like that list was designed exclusively to kill other Marines. It may be that Mars is better against every other faction, but loses in a key matchup to the best army in the meta right now.

For pure AdMech, it's probably worth splitting the difference and taking a main force of Mars with a Patrol of Ryza Kataphrons. You can even put your melee elements like Fulgerites in Ryza to buff them.

As for things you can do with your army list right now? I'd take Artisan over Magos. The AP buff is more powerful against Marines than the extra shot. I'd also switch the Beleros to a Ferrumite Cannon. With Cawl, the Ferrumite kills 1.5 Gravis per turn, compared to the Belaros' 0.85.

iamanbo wrote:

Spoiler:

my games against loyal marines are almost always against dark angels. The list you show us does not have bad units, but why don't you use a single battalion? are you using two different forge worlds? optimize cps, they are always needed with admech.
if you have any grav cannon I would include it, it works very well against them.

if you fight against vehicles you may need to put a laser instead of the icarus, the ballistarii are not enough if you want to do damage in turn 1 or 2

if you play a single battalion you save 135p from the skitarii

The electro priest in drill works very well but if you need points remember that for 1cp you can take them out on the edge of the table in T2

if you play claw you want to play kastelans, if not ... you can save 200p

In short, against marines, both the kastelans + belisarius and the grav cannon always do a lot of damage, if you fight against vehicles, put some laser to help the ballistarii and lower the skorpius to shoot without line of sight to the units that hide

Your advice is mostly wrong. AdMech don't have any Grav Cannons (except one on the X-101). If he switches to a Battalion with his current list, he has to add 45 points of Skitarii, not save any. He also loses a Heavy Support slot and an HQ slot. Why would you ever pay 1 CP to deploy a Drill from a table edge when the Drill has built in Deepstrike? Cawl provides buff to everything, and a lot of his value is in his Canticle modifier, he's not more effective with Kastelans. It's the other way around: if you already have Kastelans, they get a big buff from Cawl.

The one piece of good advice was to use Neutron Laser Dunecrawlers. They are one of your best sources of damage 3, and actually have S10 to get the 2+ to wound vs Gravis and ignore their armor. Each Neutron Laser kills 1.5 of Gravis. Between 2 Neutron Lasers, 2 Ferrumites, 2 Disruptor Missiles you should kill 7 or 8 Eradicators in one turn. If you can charge the Aggressors with the Fulgerites (use Raiders to prevent his charge, then charge them first to absorb the overwatch), the Fulgerites with Prime Hermeticon and +1S Canticle will kill 5.86 Aggressors on average. After that, it is just a matter of mopping up Marines.

Maybe it is the language that was not understood well, the weapon I mean that is good against marines is Heavy Grav-Cannon

if you carry a single battalion you can carry only 3x5 skitarii, on your list there were 6x5 skitarii

the cp spends it to go out with the Fulgurite Electro-Priest in dr and thus save the points of Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill

Although, as I was saying, I also find a good combination of Terrax-pattern Termite Assault Drill + Fulgurite Electro-Priest and enter dr for free with the Drill ability, if drill is not buried, it usually dies easy

What is true is that with a single battalion you can not put more than 3 heavy, but if you want to kick hard the best is Kataphron Destroyer in ryza with plasma

Ah, right, Heavy Grav Destroyers. They're okay, but for only a few points more you could take Ryza Plasma Destroyers. Comparing Mars canticle Heavy Grav to Ryza stratagem Plasma, the Grav kills 0.92 Gravis models while the Plasma kills 1.2. The plasma is 30% more effective while 23% more expensive. Additionally, the Ryza is guaranteed while the Mars Canticle is not active 25% of the time: in that case the Grav kills 0.7.

In the best possible case, Grav Destroyers in range of Cawl with Mars canticle are equal to Plasma Destroyers with the stratagem and a Dominus; both kill 1.4 Gravis models.

The Plasma Destroyers are also more resistant to Transhuman Physiology. They kill 0.97 Gravis, which is 19% less damage. The Grav Destroyers fall from 0.92 to 0.7, a 25% decrease.

While we're discussing Plasma Specialists, it's also worth pointing out that Vanguard are almost as good as Plasma Destroyers. 10 Vanguard with 3 Plasma for 120 points kill 2.77 Gravis (which you can buff with re-roll 1s canticle and +1 to hit stratagem to kill a max of 4 Gravis). Compared to equal points worth of Plasma Destroyers, they are almost exactly as efficient. The downside, of course, is that you can pay more to buff more Plasma Destroyers.

With regards to his detachments, his list only has 2x5 Vanguard for Troops, one in each detachment. I don't know where you got 6x5. He'd need to do a pretty major list re-write to include Destroyers at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's an idea for an anti-meta Mars+Ryza hybrid:While the Cawl castle is straightforward, the rest of the army has a lot of tricks. 8 Destroyers should, on average, kill 11 Gravis, which is enough to get rid of all the Eradicators in most lists. The Skystalkers are a Wrath of Mars bomb. Since Wrath still triggers on a 6+, you can combine them with Daedalosus and +1 to hit Stratagem to get mortals on a 4+ (which is enough to kill a Knight in one round for 175 points and 3CP). Raiders, Kataphron Flamers Overwatch, and Ironstriders with Cognis Overwatch should be plenty of anti-assault, plus you can Artisan fallback in a pinch. The Fulgerites should be able to go toe to toe with any scary melee unit.

The list has plenty of tools to deal with hordes, elite armies, vehicle armies, Knights. The biggest downside is that a lot of the list is fragile. There'll be match-ups against other alpha-strike lists where you'll have to reserve and hide most of the army so you can get the initiative on turn 2.

Wrath of Mars triggers on 6+ to Wound, not 6+ to Hit, so Daedalosus and +1 to hit stratagem, will not let you kill a knight for 175 points and 3 CP.

Overall I like your list though.

Wrath of Mars is a to wound roll of 6+ not hit roll. The best you can improve the roll is with autocannon ballistarii to MW on a 5+

Ah bugger, somehow I had it in my head it was a hit roll all this time. Ah well, that does put a serious damper the Skystalkers. I'd definitely reconsider them, but this list isn't anything like what I build or play.

Wow thx guys for your input.

So overall i can say, i would need more 3dmg weapons against marines?

ATM for the tourney this is what played:
Space Marines: 6
Death Guard: 3
Imperial Knights: 3
Adepta Sororitas: 2
Adeptus Custodes: 2
Adeptus Mechanicus: 2
Eldar: 2
Astra Militarum: 1
Blood Angels: 1
Dark Angels: 1
Deathwatch: 1
Grey Knights: 1
Orks: 1
Space Wolves: 1
The Inquisition: 1
Thousand Sons: 1
Tyraniden: 1

@Hesselhof
In a meta where Marines are this strong, 75% of the lists are going to be Marines, and 25% of the lists are going to be anti-Marines.

Anyhow, Dakkabots are currently our best answer to Marines. Neutron Crawlers do not kill Marines fast enough, and they are not durable enough to make up for this. Destroyers get pasted pretty fast when they are up against Eradicators and Aggressors, which are more efficient. (This is why I think spam approaches won't work. We cannot wear them down as fast.)

Deploy the Dakkabots defensively and push your transports up as bait. Typically speaking, Eradicators won't be in range of your Robots to do serious harm, but worst comes to worst, you can put them into reserve. Move up into a good spot to watch objectives and just paste all of his Eradicators right off the bat. 4 Dakkabots with Cawl rerolls and Magos WLT kill 13 Eradicators when rooted with average dice.

Hm, but this would be a massiv change of my list hmmm.

Atm i have no clue what to kick for 4 dakka bots

So you mean for tourney, an "allround" list is not that good, i should go for an anit marines list? i like the idea XD

Problem here simply is time =/

@Hesselhof
I think 5x Ballistarii and 4x Dakkabots are a strong TAC firebase. But like I said, if you are not prepping for Marines, you are prepping to fail.

IMO, mechanized AdMech needs to build around accomplishing two secondaries regardless of the matchup. The two I favor are Engage On All Fronts and Deploy Scramblers.


I got one unit of Skitarii to Deploy the Scrambler in my deployment while the others zoom off into the other table quadrants and the center. Fusilave should dive into the far quadrant.

I have the aforementioned Ballistarii and Dakkabots. Also have a Grator to make use of the +1 to hit and ignore cover stratagem.

What are your experience with your list?

Their are different oppinions.

The problem as ever is cawl

He's really expensive so players that advocate him need lots of dakkabot type units to justify the expense. This locks them into a castle build that wins the shooting game but struggles with the objectives.


I am more of a soup player but personnally I think an infantry/cavalry list is the way to go. It wont be as shooty but will make up for it by controlling the board scoring more points but at the trade off that your opponent won't die as quickly. However this list won't take cawl and certainly no dakkabots.

Neither stratagy is terrible but they are different in terms of build. There hasn't been enough tournaments to really evidence the difference. My first is not for 2 weeks.

A tac list tends to have the worst of both worlds. It wont have enough models to reliably hold objectives and it wonf be able to clear your opponents

@Hesselhof
I am in lockdown, so I can only play it against myself or watch others play it on TTS to test their lists against AdMech. :(

But it is pretty fierce, especially once you realize that you can put 4x Robots in reserve and outflank them. There's not actually much most infantry-based lists can do against that except to kill Boats and hope to deny me my secondaries. For a faster list, like Eldar, they might try to kill Cawl or wrap my Ballistarii. So I guess watch out for that.

One Fusilave is a must though. It gets you Engage On All Fronts points, slows and hurts hordes (mortal wound spam is nice!), and is virtually unkillable with Chaff Launchers. It's our own Alaitoc Wave Serpent. Hoplites are also just solid gold. They are so damn cheap, and they threaten virtually everything in melee; it's unbelievable that they are only 10 ppm.

In general though, AdMech needs to fight for objectives right off the bat while protecting the firebase.

@U02dah4
Actually, I think the reverse is the case: it is very easy to overdo the assault teams and not have enough of a firebase left alive after turn one to outshoot your opponent. Especially if you are taking Raiders (which in practice are not that good for objectives, but great at screening) or a Fusilave.

My list dedicates 1360 points to shooting and support, and the rest is concentrated in extremely efficient melee in transports.

Whelp I have my first 9th casual match this Saturday. Only 1000pts/50PL so atm I just wanna try out some stuff. I'm planning:

Mars Outrider
Manipulus with Artisan
3 x 5 Raiders
1 x 10 Sterylizors
4 x Auto Ballistarii
1 x Fusilave
And either 1 Stratoraptor or 1 Belleros disintigrator, they kind of server the same purpose but I think the Disintigrator edges it on firepower but the Stratoraptor has the mobility and is much harder to take down.

I'll adjust after this, but 1000pts isn't a lot to play with to get a feel for the new stuff.

The problem I have with following a lot of the advice on here is there's virtually no way to find a balance for less points. You literally cant reduce the sizes of any of those units or not take the transports or anything and them still function. its' 2k or nothing the lists scale very poorly. Ballistarii is about the only exception as our greatest all round unit.

4 dakkabots + Cawl is 700 on it's own are we thinking we wont see many vehicles or high wound targets at the moment? Any less and its not even worth taking cawl imo, just too many points.

I know most of the marine meta is on gravis infantry atm, but just about any weapon will take those down, they're just tough marines in extremely small unit sizes.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@Hesselhof
I am in lockdown, so I can only play it against myself or watch others play it on TTS to test their lists against AdMech. :(

But it is pretty fierce, especially once you realize that you can put 4x Robots in reserve and outflank them. There's not actually much most infantry-based lists can do against that except to kill Boats and hope to deny me my secondaries. For a faster list, like Eldar, they might try to kill Cawl or wrap my Ballistarii. So I guess watch out for that.

One Fusilave is a must though. It gets you Engage On All Fronts points, slows and hurts hordes (mortal wound spam is nice!), and is virtually unkillable with Chaff Launchers. It's our own Alaitoc Wave Serpent. Hoplites are also just solid gold. They are so damn cheap, and they threaten virtually everything in melee; it's unbelievable that they are only 10 ppm.

In general though, AdMech needs to fight for objectives right off the bat while protecting the firebase.

@U02dah4
Actually, I think the reverse is the case: it is very easy to overdo the assault teams and not have enough of a firebase left alive after turn one to outshoot your opponent. Especially if you are taking Raiders (which in practice are not that good for objectives, but great at screening) or a Fusilave.

My list dedicates 1360 points to shooting and support, and the rest is concentrated in extremely efficient melee in transports.

I'm not taking a firebase as such and not trying to outshoot my opponent- thats why I argue those strategies are polar. Im trying to swarm the objectives using raiders to screen and block my opponents advance to try and hold objectives for 3 Turns+ to win

The admech list portion i use consists of vanguard corpuscarii raiders and if FW is permitted hoplites. I don't take any of the firebase units.

Conversely I agree that for the cawl list to function it needs to be havy on the firebase and that the middle ground is less effective

@U02dah4
Ah. So the Nurgling approach?

My concern there is that you might get out-swarmed or lose the battle of efficiency/attrition. But keep us informed. It worked for us in the past with Breacher spam, which is very similar to the current Gravis spam.