Hoplites are FW, theres no FW points yet you probably cant even technically use any FW until they do their update (presumably a month later).
Rangers/Vanguard at 9pts pretty much solidifies Rangers only as a sniper squad. I rarely used them anyway except when i was running out of Vanguard models, since the arc rifle was so cheap it could potentially do something. But now its back to 5pts....pass lol.
Other than rangers/arc rifles i dont think we got hit too hard.
Goonhammer has a write up on their feelings on the points changes of armies across the board. They categorize Admech as a So-So, not really a winnder or loser.
In my mind, the Skorpius Disintegrator change certainly sucks, but also there's been enough noise made about sight lines and terrain changes that you just had to guess something with indirect fire was going to get hit hard.
Outside the Disintegrator, I dont really think we were hit so bad. I haven't tallied up my points yet, but I think we'll be alright.
Vineheart01 wrote: Hoplites are FW, theres no FW points yet you probably cant even technically use any FW until they do their update (presumably a month later).
Rangers/Vanguard at 9pts pretty much solidifies Rangers only as a sniper squad. I rarely used them anyway except when i was running out of Vanguard models, since the arc rifle was so cheap it could potentially do something. But now its back to 5pts....pass lol.
Other than rangers/arc rifles i dont think we got hit too hard.
I'd argue Heavy Stubbers are the most painful. Mostly because they're everywhere and none of them is optional. Dunerider hiking to 100pts (20 in HStubbers!)is my big pain, Belleros to 150 (where 15pts are HS) likewise. Planes are also hit by HS costing 5pts.
i play orks. im used to that already with bigshootas. Bigshootas are all over the place on ork vehicles and only the wagon is allowed to not take it.
Yeah bigshootas are S5 but theyre also wildly inaccurate, they never do anything for me while stubbers somehow did. Accuracy makes a huge difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So after deleating my kasellans the remaining 1660pts became 1970 ( with hoplites/daedalosus subject to future change) quite a reduction
What good currently I can see is:
Hqs are relatively the same, Cawl got better and engineseer a bit worse for several reasons.
Troops mainly Vanguard and Grav+Phosphor destroyers seem good
Transport: Drill with heavy flamers
fast: Lascannon balistarii
heavy: Icarus crawlers
Worst:
Autocannon ballistarii, Cognis stubbers, flyers, sulphur hounds ( the alpha costs 30 points), most pistols and melee weapons, good old sicarians
Vineheart01 wrote: Hoplites are FW, theres no FW points yet you probably cant even technically use any FW until they do their update (presumably a month later).
Rangers/Vanguard at 9pts pretty much solidifies Rangers only as a sniper squad. I rarely used them anyway except when i was running out of Vanguard models, since the arc rifle was so cheap it could potentially do something. But now its back to 5pts....pass lol.
Other than rangers/arc rifles i dont think we got hit too hard.
i wonder why the autocannon strider went up but not the lascannon one.
10pt difference now. Does that make the autocannon side w/ Mars + bonus wound strat not as ideal, since the lascannon side wont need multiple stratagems to hurt big things?
Vanguard are looking really strong rangers being equal priced but worse are eliminated and the kataphrons remain overpriced maybe breachers can work in a neich build but with agripinaa nerfed unlikely .. So vanguard win
Winners corpuscarii already are strongest drop and fire unit thank you enginewar and tactical reserves now no point increase. Hoplite 1 points increase and a smaller ratio of increase to vanguard infiltrators was already marginally better at drop shoot and sacrifice than pteraxii and gained only 20 points to there 21
Middle fulgurite same problems has to kill reserves make it easier but lost points compared to other options servitor the i have a few extra pts unit data smith now a WL trait carrier when you run out of HQ slots peltast still meh
Losers rustalker was a tough call before now its not dirt cheap and it doesnt come close to hoplites x101 still not worth it
Winners Raider still broken lascannon balistarii actually cheaper
Losers sulphurhound i want to like them but raiders are better pteraxii it was close between them corpuscarii and infiltrators and the other two came out better autocannon ballistarii - it got more expensive while the lascannon varient got cheaper
Eliminated dragoon modifiers weakened its defense and lost a 3rd of its damage output it needed a pts reduction after such a heavy nerf it got a marginal increase
Heavy support dakkabot x 4 500 + neutronager 135+26 disintegrator 150+39
Middle while neutronagers and disintegrators got significant points increases the enginewar wl trait bubbles can boost their effectiveness overall its a loss but you now need to castle them to get value
Eliminated dakka kastellan i mean seriously pointed to oblivion
Flyers
Loser
Transvector - unplayable as cant transport 10
Fusilave 130+16 arguably better because it didnt increase as much as its competitors but its still not good at its job
Eliminated stratoraptor 160 +46 well it was a dubious take before with a huge points increase unplayable
If peltasts are the same points as vanguard/rangers, and we dont need as many troops as when we were running 2-3 detachments, I wonder if we will see Peltasts actually see play?
All they need is being able to shoot pistols in addition to other weapons IMO. The ork buggies already have this rule so it wouldn't be something completely out of left field.
The blast rifle would still be a bit pricey but ultimately it'd only cost you points then, and not cause these weird issues where that guy is worse than the rest.
Yeah I started off wanting to play WYSIWYG and all that but Jesus 15 pts for a niche weapon like that is hard to swallow. Yeah I might get lucky and kill 2 Intercessors with it but most of the time I'll do a wound tops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Check the FAQs section of the WHC, they released it for all factions it seems ! Starting to read ours now.
dadamowsky wrote: FAQsTLDR - all teslas are unmodified 6 to proc. Dunecrawlers can advance d6" as they've lost the Crawlers ability xD
You missed the part where they now only get 2 extra hits instead of 3. Massive nerf.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also missing any adjustments to morale abilities...whats the point in only having a single model flee when only a single model ever flees?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and Necron tesla carbines are unaffected. Still get 3 hits on a 6+ :| kick us while we're down why doncha lol
Man, they really brought the hammer down on my Wrath of Mars Infiltrator bomb. 20 points per model is absolutely insane, and Taser Goad was nerfed hard too. I can't believe the Skystalkers are 17 points for mostly the same thing but better.
At least I'm glad they differentiated the Disintegrator from the Dunecrawler. Now that the Neutron Laser is a 15 point bump over the Eradication Beamer, do you think the latter could find a place? Or is it still totally overshadowed by the Icarus Array?
DarkHound wrote: Man, they really brought the hammer down on my Wrath of Mars Infiltrator bomb. 20 points per model is absolutely insane, and Taser Goad was nerfed hard too. I can't believe the Skystalkers are 17 points for mostly the same thing but better.
At least I'm glad they differentiated the Disintegrator from the Dunecrawler. Now that the Neutron Laser is a 15 point bump over the Eradication Beamer, do you think the latter could find a place? Or is it still totally overshadowed by the Icarus Array?
There's literary no point in any other Onager than Icarus now. All the other weapons need a ground-up rework to be back to play.
U02dah4 wrote: Dakka castellans got redicullus 125pts a bot
Automatically Appended Next Post: So after deleating my kasellans the remaining 1660pts became 1970 ( with hoplites/daedalosus subject to future change) quite a reduction
Dakastellans seam like a steal to me; only going up 10 ppm and no longer being able to be shut down by being tagged in combat makes them a more attractive choice than they were in 8th edition. Am I missing something?
Automatically Appended Next Post: With Duneriders now at 100 points and Drills with heavy flamers at 130, I think my drills will be coming off the shelf.
The mission structure is against castleing they are too much of a points investment in a non castleing list especially given the not insignificant rise in other key castleing pieces. Mars got hit hard in general and i cant see them doing that well outside of mars
When everything is said and done, I think we actually got out of this pretty unscathed. Some armies just got totally shellacked. Especially for characters and vehicles.
WINNERS
Auto/Las Ballistarii at 65/75 and Icarus Crawlers at 115. Wow. Bring 5 of the former and 3 of latter in every list.
Vanguard at 9 makes them a winner by comparison because Rangers are also at 9; Plasma Vanguard cost is unchanged as well. Also very surprised about Breachers at 35 and Hoplites at 10.
SO-SO
Plasma Destroyers at 55. Still waiting word on if they instantly meltdown, but they are still viable.
Corpsucarii at 14 are looking good pointswise, but they are essentially replacing Infiltrators as DS bombs.
Dunerider at 100 seems shocking, but they are now average compared to other lists, especially once you look at our options for strike packages, especially Plasma Vanguard and Hoplites. Drills at 130 (with flamers instead of stormbolters) are also good alternatives to Duneriders now.
Robots at 125 is still reasonable.
Bomber at 130 is still looking useful.
LOSERS
Now that I think about it, Grators at 150 is pretty overpriced. They were ridiculously OP in 8E, but not 150 points OP. That said, it is possible that they misprinted and Belleros is 0 and Ferrumite is 5.
Fulgurites at 17 is way too expensive, given they have to be taken in 6+ units to remain effective; Hoplites are just strictly better now.
Dragoons at 70. LOL. Wow, way to kick em while they're down.
Gunship and Transport are just comically overpriced.
I'm starting to look into Ruststalkers, given that 14ppm isn't terrible for 2 wounds in this edition, and we need units to actually push enemies off objectives. My Infiltrators used to do the job, but that price hike is hard for me to justify. The math seems to bear out that Razor+Chord is equal to or better than Blades against most targets, and is especially better against Primaris. Depending on your Dogma/Relics/Traits/Canticle buffs, a squad of 5 kills about 2.5-3 Primaris a round. And I do think you want to run them in 5s to maximize the number of Princeps.
Since I'm dropping Infiltrators, I won't need Mars for Wrath (and I can't get the canticle because my Knight has to be the Warlord). Hell, I think I'll drop Daedalosus too. He can't take an Engine War trait, and his biggest benefit was Wrath on 5+. I'll just run a Dominus with Artisan instead.
I already run a big ball of Vanguard around a Magos Manipulus up the mid field. That speed boost is significant for the Ruststalkers, bringing them up to ~14" advance and a charge threat range of ~20". I'm going to run an Expansionist custom Forgeworld that ignores assault+advance penalties. I definitely didn't expect to end up with that combination.
I always liked the way ruststalkers looked, so Im not mad at the idea of them becoming useful. I'm really curious to see how they do, please share your experiences with them in 9th DarkHound!
Gremore wrote: I always liked the way ruststalkers looked, so Im not mad at the idea of them becoming useful. I'm really curious to see how they do, please share your experiences with them in 9th DarkHound!
If you take them in a detachment with rugged explorers having them at ap -1 for all those attacks is as good as the new assault intercessors. With the 6s being mortal they only lose toughness and save and gain an invul for a fraction of the price.
Heavy Support - 355 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launchers, Cognis Heavy Stubber
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launchers, Cognis Heavy Stubber
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launchers
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
One thing I like about 9E is that it really forces you to think about what is important.
For the firebase, I actually initially wanted to keep the 3x Grators, but 150 points really crowds out too much of my list (still think it's a mistake and they intended 130), so I decided to focus on the big winners for my firebase: 5x Auto Ballistarii and 3x Icarus Crawlers.
In terms of HQ, I went with Cawl and a Artisan Enginseer. The former for the rerolls to improve the consistency of Icarus Crawlers against ground units. The latter to improve their AP against tougher targets; an extra AP results in much better math than an extra hit on a natural 6. The ability to fallback and shoot like old school Fly is also a big deal.
As for the objective units, I dropped my Fulgurites for Hoplites, which are clearly better. They are loaded into two Flamer Drills, which will push up in front of my my Boats. In rare instances, I will Deep Strike them, but the smaller maps make vehicles movement much more impactful.
We have a little beer & pretzels tourney planned for next month at 1000 pts to have fun and try out this new edition. Considering how interesting Vanguards have become compared to Rangers I'm thinking trying the new custom FW traits to have the -1 AP on Radium weapons and use a lot of them in MSU. Ideally I'd have loved the Irradiation rule at 3" + -1AP but we can't do that sadly. For a Warlord trait I'm thinking the one that gives +1 shot on 6 to hit for them, considering they'll have a lot of shots. Still have to calculate/throw the dice to see if it gives an honorable boost or not. The -1 AP on half-range is nice too but I don't think being 9" away is going to be recurrent.
Haven't had a look at the secondaries neither, but I don't know if we'll use the GT rulepack or not, and if it has different secondaries.
Another interesting thought: Peltasts are actually decent now. They still cost the same as Vanguard, but the Mars Canticle boosts their Hammershot to S5 AP-2 D1 without any move and shoot penalty.
Suzuteo wrote: Another interesting thought: Peltasts are actually decent now. They still cost the same as Vanguard, but the Mars Canticle boosts their Hammershot to S5 AP-2 D1 without any move and shoot penalty.
Interesting... I still have a lot of Tau firewarrior breacher weapons, might need to replace some skitarii
Edit: Although they still dont benefit from most buffs, so Ill have to wait until the forgeworld version drops
So is anyone else tempted to run a few torsion cannons now that they're just 10 points each? I'm assuming the new primaris bikes will flood the tables so high ap and always d6 should be decent, no? Especially considering the range isn't as much of an issue anymore..
PiñaColada wrote: So is anyone else tempted to run a few torsion cannons now that they're just 10 points each? I'm assuming the new primaris bikes will flood the tables so high ap and always d6 should be decent, no? Especially considering the range isn't as much of an issue anymore..
Its definitely an option now.
I did some maths ( it was like 4 with torsion vs 5 with arc or something to have the same points)
Arc was generally better, except T7 vehicles without invulns. The difference wasnt very high though, and losing on a body might not be worth, they also have less range.
On some niche situations they might be worth, but not against bikes. You do 0.97 dmg per torsion cannon to a primaris bike and 0.89 with the arc rifle.
Competetively I wouldnt use them, however you can sprinkle one or two per squad if you so desire and not waste tons of points.
Yeah, that was my gut feeling. Not bad enough to shoot yourself in the foot anymore but not really worth it either per se. I guess if nidzilla lists become the norm (for some reason) then they might find a place in more lists..
What about hydraulic claws? they cost the same as arc claws now.
Trading -1 to hit for potentially +2 to wound and d3 dmg sounds nice except against anything that is a horde.
I don't know, this weapon has always been absurd. Hitting on 5+ ? S10 but AP-1 ? Is it made of radioactive butter ? I think the Arc Claw is still the better option.
Yeah, I'm not tempted to self impose a -1 to hit when you're starting on 4+. Unless everything in your meta is already -1 to hit in melee for some reason.
Its along the lines of the Wraiths with axes/shields, i dont understand why a weapon confers -1 if it isnt AP-FU (common term in my area for high ap) - no amount of strength bonus is a good trade unless it also has an AP worth mentioning.
I'd take hitting on 5s if it was a lethal attack that pretty much guarantees death if i can even hit iwith it. AP1 means a lot will just plink off armor anyway, despite the high strength.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, I'm not tempted to self impose a -1 to hit when you're starting on 4+. Unless everything in your meta is already -1 to hit in melee for some reason.
In a primaris meta I will use the hydraulic claws, we have enough dakka in skitarii and sicarians.
The problem is that -1 to hit is only really worth it if they have a powerfist statline, but those cost 10 points. Would you really spend 10 points per melee weapon on breachers?
The thing about Hydraulics is - we have means to reroll to hits in combat (1 or failed) but no, absolutely no way to reroll wounds (outside of Ryza at least). I've been running Hydraulics with Prime Hermeticon and they do work. Against Primaris, against monsters, against any vehicles - as they might hit on 5s but they have basically +1 to wound in comparison to Arc, and always have d3 damage.
On a side note - I'm making a closer look at Torsions now, to mix them with the Arcs in my 5 models MSU (1 or 2 Torsions per unit). At 10 points and with rerolls/noospheric they aren't looking that bad on paper. We want our obsec to be pushed mid anyway to get/deny points so the range isn't the issue either. At the same time, we might want to have D6 damage against everything and S8 on top.
Haha yeah whoever designed the AdMech melee weapons like that were just phoning it in. Belisarius Cawl's Arc Scourge is such an odd weapon profile, haha. Now that I'm looking at Cawl and his points, I just don't understand. A Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor with the Chapter Master upgrade looks like such a steal in comparison. I guess it's probably worth 100 points just to be able to manipulate canticles now that there is the Mars canticle powerhouse and Shroudpsalm may be really good in 9th.
Aaranis wrote: Anyone found if the points for the transuranic arquebus are up somewhere ?
Not that I have seen, but:
For the Time being, I am assuming 15 Points per in list building, but it might be going down to 10. Both follow the strange trends in the Points adjustments.
What is going to be your Troop choice from now on ? Speaking to a friend of mine that loves the competitive aspect he believes 9th will be all about taking and HOLDING objectives, meaning durability and speed are what we should be looking for in our lists. Of course, keeping the lethality necessary in dealing with the opponent's objective holders too.
Breachers are our most resilient Troop choice but don't do much outside of being resilient. Destroyers are the opposite, less tough but great for either anti-MEQ with Grav weapons or anti-all with the new Blast Plasma cannon. Then we have Skitarii with either Rangers or Vanguards. I prefer Vanguards due to the increased volume of fire that fits well with a few Warlord traits and stratagems combination, and the Irradiation rule that helps as a support unit in a brawl.
Well, I already have Vanguards and Rangers, and only a minimum Destroyers unit, so will probably buy a couple more boxes of Kataphrons for a unit of 4 and 5 of Destroyer/breachers, and Will have Rangers take-and-hold Near DZ objectives with Arqubi and Vanguards + Kataphrons moving out towards objectives afield.
While my eventual plans for my admech are to be able to field full-themed armies(Rad Saturated Vanguard, Expansionist Rangers, and Servitor/Cyborg maniple); I am currently fielding a mostly "ad-mech in a Blender" combined arms force.
There's an argument for having a bunch of kataphrons in the sense that they give up almost nothing in way of offensive secondaries for your opponent. Your opponent can score a point for every 10 models they kill or if they kill more units than you or for every vehicle they kill.
If you only have a couple of vehicles in the entire list then all those secondaries are crap, it should be noted that they don't have to choose one of them but in my limited playtesting they are some of the easier ones to score generally.
It'd also leave you with a bunch of tough, obsec troops which is great in 9th. If I owned 30-40 kataphrons I'd easily try it out. But for a more doable build I think a squad or two of breachers mixed in with some cheap squads of chaff are a good bet.
I've not run more than 18 Kataphrons in a game and without agripinaa being viable even with enginewar their just not surviveable enough especially as you cant bubble and score well and its no good stop your opponent scoreing if you give up scoreing to do so
Aaranis wrote: What is going to be your Troop choice from now on ? Speaking to a friend of mine that loves the competitive aspect he believes 9th will be all about taking and HOLDING objectives, meaning durability and speed are what we should be looking for in our lists. Of course, keeping the lethality necessary in dealing with the opponent's objective holders too.
Breachers are our most resilient Troop choice but don't do much outside of being resilient. Destroyers are the opposite, less tough but great for either anti-MEQ with Grav weapons or anti-all with the new Blast Plasma cannon. Then we have Skitarii with either Rangers or Vanguards. I prefer Vanguards due to the increased volume of fire that fits well with a few Warlord traits and stratagems combination, and the Irradiation rule that helps as a support unit in a brawl.
My friends who are playtesting on TTS say the exact same thing. Transports and melee got more expensive because they are extremely valuable.
I personally any sticking to the mechanized concept. 3x Boats and 2x Drills full of Hoplites and Blandguard; I might cut one Drill for a fourth Boat to free up points. Anyhow, the usual tactics apply. Get to the objectives with overwhelming force, with the infantry hiding inside or behind their transports. Gun down infantry with the firebase. Crush any vehicles with the Drills and Hoplites. Outlast your opponent.
Breachers aren't fast enough IMO. If you go that route, commit to a dominant strategy of occupying the midboard with a ton of Breachers and just killing everything.
Yeah I'm thinking going full Vanguards too, I don't own any Skorpiuses yet sadly but the idea to mechanise them was always on my mind. Probably going full MSU though, I don't trust big units so far. I'll try my draft list at 1000 pts as soon as I can to see what it's worth. Thinking of going 6x5 Vanguards if I manage to find enough bits to transform a few Rangers into Vanguards.
I might sprinkle a Plasma Caliver in a few squads, I'll see if it's worth it. They're still not excessively tough, though the -1S above 12" should help against bolters.
Gremore wrote:I always liked the way ruststalkers looked, so Im not mad at the idea of them becoming useful. I'm really curious to see how they do, please share your experiences with them in 9th DarkHound!
Suzuteo wrote: My friends who are playtesting on TTS say the exact same thing. Transports and melee got more expensive because they are extremely valuable.
Having played a couple simulator games now, and having watched a lot of battle reports, I think you need an assault element in your army in 9th.
I'm definitely leaning on Ruststalkers being quite good, with some caveats. The first being that they're very fragile because every member contributes to combat effectiveness. The second being they absolutely need supporting traits/dogamas/canticles/stratagems. They are a counter-charge unit and you shouldn't run them up the board for no reason. They should lurk around objectives and counter-assault enemies off them because they need the initiative to get their damage in.
After an iteration, this was the list I tested and settled on:
Spoiler:
1500, 7CP Super Heavy Detachment, House Husak, Glorified History, Hounds of War Preceptor, Multi-laser, Thunderstrike, Ironstorm, 425 [Ion Shielded, Paragon] 2 Warglaives, 2 Meltas, 320 745
I tried the Omnisicient Mask but it doesn't help since you want to springboard away from the Manipulus. You also need to use Conqueror Doctrine and Acquire at all Costs, so consequently they need to be 10 man squads. When they're all pumped up with +1S Canticle and -1AP Dogma, they're removing about 14 MEQ wounds (and something like 8 or 9 Primaris bodies with the Chordclaws). Or with re-roll 1s to hit, they get 23 wounds vs GEQs or ~20 vs Orks.
I was also very pleased with how fast the Vanguard were in this configuration. A 12" move makes the 18" guns go a long way. They could actually consistently use the Artisan's -1AP buff at 9" when clearing objectives.
If someone really wants a +1S on Ruststalkers then Blades are an answer. FW Canticles are way too precious to waste them for Rusties having a bit better wounding.
Issue with blades is they axe the Chordclaw, and whenever i run ruststalkers its honestly just the chordclaw that even does anything, since a 6 to wound with it tends to kill multiple models.
+1S doesnt help ruststalkers very much. They desperately need a baseline AP. Annoyingly the only way we can fix that causes mortal wounds instead of the damage anyway lol
Honestly I'd rather use Sterylizors to the job Ruststalkers want to do. 100 pts instead of 70 pts, but you have the same amount of attacks on the charge at least, innate -1 AP and S5 on the charge. Plus Fly, 12" move, a good pistol and 4 good flamers that ignore cover and have -1 AP.
And there's also the stratagem to lock an Infantry unit in CC on a 2+ which helps their survivability as long as they're not locked with Aggressors or something of course. For 30 pts I think it's worth it against a unit that REALLY needs 6s to Wound to do damage to anything that's not an Aeldari or Guardsmen profile.
Aaranis wrote: Honestly I'd rather use Sterylizors to the job Ruststalkers want to do. 100 pts instead of 70 pts, but you have the same amount of attacks on the charge at least, innate -1 AP and S5 on the charge. Plus Fly, 12" move, a good pistol and 4 good flamers that ignore cover and have -1 AP.
And there's also the stratagem to lock an Infantry unit in CC on a 2+ which helps their survivability as long as they're not locked with Aggressors or something of course. For 30 pts I think it's worth it against a unit that REALLY needs 6s to Wound to do damage to anything that's not an Aeldari or Guardsmen profile.
I like your thinking here, Sterylizors may just have found a way into my list. Love me some flexibility. Though Skystalkers may still win for their options and cheaper cost. Gah! lol.
The biggest thing stopping me use Ruststalkers is not their melee ability, it's not bad, its not great but they're cheap for a fast-moving 2w model. It's that that's their trick. That's all they have. No shooting, no extreme mobility, no shenanigans of any kind and for 2ppm more I can get Raiders. Even now being able to get them in range of their target easier and removing overwatch if that's ALL you were doing with them there are better alternatives. Corpuscarii are the same points cost now...which is kinda silly.
As far as durable melee options go...all our melee options are fragile. Breachers are as close as we get to durable but they're not exactly cheap and excel more at shooting. Even Fulgurites are fragile against normal weapons without you popping acquisition after killing something. I think i'd still rather take Breachers for sitting on Objectives though, they can at least do something while they're there.
Hoplites are on my radar for their synergy with Trans node power cores though. Bunch of breachers and Hoplites all exploding all their hits on 5s and 6s is a helluva incentive.
Aaranis wrote: Honestly I'd rather use Sterylizors to the job Ruststalkers want to do. 100 pts instead of 70 pts, but you have the same amount of attacks on the charge at least, innate -1 AP and S5 on the charge. Plus Fly, 12" move, a good pistol and 4 good flamers that ignore cover and have -1 AP.
And there's also the stratagem to lock an Infantry unit in CC on a 2+ which helps their survivability as long as they're not locked with Aggressors or something of course. For 30 pts I think it's worth it against a unit that REALLY needs 6s to Wound to do damage to anything that's not an Aeldari or Guardsmen profile.
I like your thinking here, Sterylizors may just have found a way into my list. Love me some flexibility. Though Skystalkers may still win for their options and cheaper cost. Gah! lol.
The biggest thing stopping me use Ruststalkers is not their melee ability, it's not bad, its not great but they're cheap for a fast-moving 2w model. It's that that's their trick. That's all they have. No shooting, no extreme mobility, no shenanigans of any kind and for 2ppm more I can get Raiders. Even now being able to get them in range of their target easier and removing overwatch if that's ALL you were doing with them there are better alternatives. Corpuscarii are the same points cost now...which is kinda silly.
As far as durable melee options go...all our melee options are fragile. Breachers are as close as we get to durable but they're not exactly cheap and excel more at shooting. Even Fulgurites are fragile against normal weapons without you popping acquisition after killing something. I think i'd still rather take Breachers for sitting on Objectives though, they can at least do something while they're there.
Hoplites are on my radar for their synergy with Trans node power cores though. Bunch of breachers and Hoplites all exploding all their hits on 5s and 6s is a helluva incentive.
Unfortunately, Hoplites don't get Dogmas, so they dont get exploding 5s and 6s. I am really hoping the new Forge World Index changes that.
U02dah4 wrote:Rust stalkers arnt good purely because hoplites and corpuscarii do the same role better +1S canticle is too big a penalty for the rest of the army
Aaranis wrote:Honestly I'd rather use Sterylizors to the job Ruststalkers want to do.
The math vs MEQs works out that, without any buffs, Corpuscarii, Sterylizers, and Ruststalkers all score 0.67 average wounds per model, while Hoplites score 0.45. Against Primaris, the Ruststalkers jump to 0.89 expected wounds because the D3 damage gets used. There's also a big caveat for the Styerlizers, because if they aren't charging they deal 0.34 wounds vs MEQ. That becomes a big liability when you're trying to hold an objective.
While most of those units have a shooting profile, you have to be careful when considering it. You won't always shoot, because you risk failing the charge by killing the closest models. Against MEQ, the Corpuscarii and Hoplites score 0.22 more wounds and the Sterylizers score a whopping 0.88.
You can see all the choices are actually fairly competitive. The Hoplites are the cheapest and also the weakest, slowest, and second most fragile. Corpuscarii are the most fragile for their points, but are slightly better offensively with their shooting. Ruststalkers are almost twice as durable as Corpuscarii, and are faster, for the same price. The Sterylizers are faster still and have great shooting, but are 40% more expensive and really suck if they aren't charging.
So there are pros and cons but, for taking an objective and then sitting on it, I think Ruststalkers are the best per point.
dadamowsky wrote:If someone really wants a +1S on Ruststalkers then Blades are an answer. FW Canticles are way too precious to waste them for Rusties having a bit better wounding.
Vineheart01 wrote:Issue with blades is they axe the Chordclaw, and whenever i run ruststalkers its honestly just the chordclaw that even does anything, since a 6 to wound with it tends to kill multiple models. +1S doesnt help ruststalkers very much. They desperately need a baseline AP. Annoyingly the only way we can fix that causes mortal wounds instead of the damage anyway lol
Yup, the math also bears out that the Chordclaw is like half the Ruststalker's damage, but two thirds of the damage still gets a meaningful boost from +1S. My list doesn't get that much value from Canticles (no FW ones, everybody's in range of the Dominus anyway), so I can easily use it on turn 2 or 3. If you can't, then you're not missing out that much. Most of the damage boost comes from the stratagems.
Octovol wrote: I like your thinking here, Sterylizors may just have found a way into my list. Love me some flexibility. Though Skystalkers may still win for their options and cheaper cost. Gah! lol.
The biggest thing stopping me use Ruststalkers is not their melee ability, it's not bad, its not great but they're cheap for a fast-moving 2w model. It's that that's their trick. That's all they have. No shooting, no extreme mobility, no shenanigans of any kind and for 2ppm more I can get Raiders.
I'll throw the rest on the math pile. Skystalkers get 0.22 wounds vs MEQ. Raiders get 0.29 wounds. Sulphurhounds get 0.3. Obviously these are shooting units, and they are not meant to be in close combat. Still, I want to make apparent the disparity, they're less than half as good as actual close combat units.
PiñaColada wrote: Goonhammer has confirmed that the arquebus is 10 points each by the way. Rejoice!
Oh thanks for the info, that's great news ! It helps soften the increase in cost for Rangers a bit. I may keep 2x5 units of 2 arquebuses and Omnispex in the future to hold ground in my backline.
Yeah all our melee is flimsy, save for Kastelan Robots, which are a pain to deal with if it's not locked with a Dreadnought or TH hero or something. I'm eager to try my 4x Fistelans unit in 9th, they may be a nice presence to add midfield to threaten lines or hold objectives. Otherwise, flimsiness can be mitigated with Duneriders, ideally our melee units don't get shot at before they're charged save for the eventual Overwatch. Advance the Duneriders, weather a turn of fire, and disembark-charge the next. Which is why it's important to keep multiple vehicles in our lists (not that it's hard to do) to give the opponent different threats to deal with his limited anti-tank weaponry. Will he focus on the Ironstriders, or the Duneriders ?
To get back to the Ruststalker question, I would never use a pure melee unit to hold an objective, that's asking for trouble. Let's say they're on their own in a corner of the map holding an objective and the opponent brings a shooty squad just close enough so as to shoot the Ruststalkers to whittle them down. Come your turn, do you leave the objective to charge them, or do you stay still and pray you'll tank the next salvo ? It's not a common scenario I admit, but it happens and it happened to me with different units. They're nice as a SUPPORT unit I think, as long the main objective holders (mainly, our Troops) are there they're great to intercept or finish off units threatening our control.
We need tough and/or cheap units that can defend themselves to hold objectives in 9th. Even Ironstriders can be an interesting choice in a pinch, they had a minimal points bump while gaining the abilities to shoot in CC and move without penalty. They'll finally be able to do what they're supposed to do: be a very mobile firing platform. Park 3-4 on an objective and with their sheer footprint they'll be hard to kick out.
Aaranis wrote: Even Ironstriders can be an interesting choice in a pinch, they had a minimal points bump while gaining the abilities to shoot in CC and move without penalty. They'll finally be able to do what they're supposed to do: be a very mobile firing platform. Park 3-4 on an objective and with their sheer footprint they'll be hard to kick out.
With the weirdly large increase in points for Autocannons, are Lascannon Ironstriders worth running?
I'm going to do the maths, but for 10 pts more they're still a cheap option for anti-tank that doesn't need much support. Thing is, Autocannons can be much more flexible, as long as we invest around them, be it in CPs or Warlord Traits. You'd have to see what your local meta is made of. I know I'll prefer Autocannons when facing Primaris armies. With the possibility to have them S8 for a turn, as well as having AP-2 at mid-range you're looking at a lot of dead Primaris quite often.
We can still give +1 to Hit to our Ironstriders, just 2 of them and this strat is 4 shots at 2+ to Hit/3+ to Wound AP-3 Dd6, it's a reliable anti-tank tool.
U02dah4 wrote:Rust stalkers arnt good purely because hoplites and corpuscarii do the same role better +1S canticle is too big a penalty for the rest of the army
Aaranis wrote:Honestly I'd rather use Sterylizors to the job Ruststalkers want to do.
The math vs MEQs works out that, without any buffs, Corpuscarii, Styerlizers, and Ruststalkers all score 0.67 average wounds per model, while Hoplites score 0.45. Against Primaris, the Ruststalkers jump to 0.89 expected wounds because the D3 damage gets used. There's also a big caveat for the Styerlizers, because if they aren't charging they deal 0.34 wounds vs MEQ. That becomes a big liability when you're trying to hold an objective.
While most of those units have a shooting profile, you have to be careful when considering it. You won't always shoot, because you risk failing the charge by killing the closest models. Against MEQ, the Corpuscarii and Hoplites score 0.22 more wounds and the Sterylizers score a whopping 0.88.
You can see all the choices are actually fairly competitive. The Hoplites are the cheapest and also the weakest, slowest, and second most fragile. Corpuscarii are the most fragile for their points, but are slightly better offensively with their shooting. Ruststalkers are almost twice as durable as Corpuscarii, and are faster, for the same price. The Sterylizers are faster still and have great shooting, but are 40% more expensive and really suck if they aren't charging.
So there are pros and cons but, for taking an objective and then sitting on it, I think Ruststalkers are the best per point.
dadamowsky wrote:If someone really wants a +1S on Ruststalkers then Blades are an answer. FW Canticles are way too precious to waste them for Rusties having a bit better wounding.
Vineheart01 wrote:Issue with blades is they axe the Chordclaw, and whenever i run ruststalkers its honestly just the chordclaw that even does anything, since a 6 to wound with it tends to kill multiple models.
+1S doesnt help ruststalkers very much. They desperately need a baseline AP. Annoyingly the only way we can fix that causes mortal wounds instead of the damage anyway lol
Yup, the math also bears out that the Chordclaw is like half the Ruststalker's damage, but two thirds of the damage still gets a meaningful boost from +1S. My list doesn't get that much value from Canticles (no FW ones, everybody's in range of the Dominus anyway), so I can easily use it on turn 2 or 3. If you can't, then you're not missing out that much. Most of the damage boost comes from the stratagems.
Octovol wrote: I like your thinking here, Sterylizors may just have found a way into my list. Love me some flexibility. Though Skystalkers may still win for their options and cheaper cost. Gah! lol.
The biggest thing stopping me use Ruststalkers is not their melee ability, it's not bad, its not great but they're cheap for a fast-moving 2w model. It's that that's their trick. That's all they have. No shooting, no extreme mobility, no shenanigans of any kind and for 2ppm more I can get Raiders.
I'll throw the rest on the math pile. Skystalkers get 0.22 wounds vs MEQ. Raiders get 0.29 wounds. Sulphurhounds get 0.3. Obviously these are shooting units, and they are not meant to be in close combat. Still, I want to make apparent the disparity, they're less than half as good as actual close combat units.
1) hoplites are cheaper in points than ruststalkers a simple model by model comparison is not fair 7 rust stalkers = 10 hoplites you cant just do a mode for modell damage comparison- but lets look at 7Ruststalkers VS 10 hoplites 4.6W vs 2w MEQ to vs 1W from the razor and 1.5 MW 0.5 hits go through at d3 dam and 3/4 MW from the chordclaw
so 4.6W from hoplite vs 4.25 from ruststalker point for point vs 2W MEQ but hoplites S6 and D3 dam vs vehicles makes them more effective vs a wider range of targets.
2) hoplites superior invul especially is huge when it comes to defence hoplites are much more survivable and will dish out 3ish MW in defence sure the rustalkers pt for pt get 4 extra W but come up against high AP and the rustalkers are tissue paper. I've seen Knight gallents take more damage from hoplites than they dealt to it that wouldn't be the case for rustalkers
3) hoplites have guns - that arn't bad after DS your essentially getting 10 extra A pushing that 4.6 up to 6.7 so about 33% more than the rustalkers not factory defensive W vs the units that rustalkers are optimised for
rustalkers are not almost twice as durable as corpuscarii vs a lot of weapons say my knight warden desides to unleash its gattleing cannon 3.95 dead corpuscarii 55pts ish 5.5 dead rustalkers or 77.7pts
Sure if you cherrypick 0AP mono damage weapons rustalkers are pretty resistant but the minute either of those things arnt true the gap closes and if both are true corpuscarii are more survivable
but just for good measure the hoplites lose 4.4 models at approximately 44 Pts from the same measure (we have a survivability winner)
So short your assessment is way off probably due to cherrypicking as a general rule on a point for point basis Hoplites are the most tanky and the best in melee while corpuscarii with the new strat cost the same as rustalkers but get great shooting
Ruststalkers only advantage is speed and that makes no difference when you are DS or objective camping
Aaranis wrote: Yeah all our melee is flimsy, save for Kastelan Robots, which are a pain to deal with if it's not locked with a Dreadnought or TH hero or something.
To get back to the Ruststalker question, I would never use a pure melee unit to hold an objective, that's asking for trouble. Let's say they're on their own in a corner of the map holding an objective and the opponent brings a shooty squad just close enough so as to shoot the Ruststalkers to whittle them down. Come your turn, do you leave the objective to charge them, or do you stay still and pray you'll tank the next salvo ? It's not a common scenario I admit, but it happens and it happened to me with different units. They're nice as a SUPPORT unit I think, as long the main objective holders (mainly, our Troops) are there they're great to intercept or finish off units threatening our control.
I should be clear, the point is to take an objective and hold it until it scores at the start of the next turn, then move on and let a shooting unit stay on it. For that reason, I don't think Ruststalkers do well if they're reserved to go backfield hunting (but I also don't think any of our units do that well). I'd even argue that with Acquisition at any Cost and cover (or Shroudpsalm), 20 2+ wounds is hard to remove.
The math bears out that Breachers are the weakest assault unit, but the most durable. I just don't see them performing that well as an objective taker. I also think Fulgerites are still in the running. They didn't get that much of a point increase. If you're running transports, you should probably be using Fulgurites. They have far and away the most damage, and are competitively durable when you get Siphon Vigour.
I think the top 3 assault units are Fulgerites, Ruststalkers, and Sterylizers, in that order.
Wait, why are we comparing Ruststalkers to Hoplites? 10 Hoplites do WAYYY more work than 7 Ruststalkers, especially against vehicles and after taking Acquisition At Any Cost into account. Better durability, higher volume of attacks, lower risk of loss. What more can you want?
If your only concern is Space Marines though, I would do Corpuscarii.
And yeah, Breachers are mediocre at fighting unless we significantly invest in them to fight. Which I do recommend if you are going to be bringing 3-6x5 of them.
Suzuteo wrote: Wait, why are we comparing Ruststalkers to Hoplites? 10 Hoplites do WAYYY more work than 7 Ruststalkers, especially against vehicles and after taking Acquisition At Any Cost into account. Better durability, higher volume of attacks, lower risk of loss. What more can you want?
If your only concern is Space Marines though, I would do Corpuscarii.
And yeah, Breachers are mediocre at fighting unless we significantly invest in them to fight. Which I do recommend if you are going to be bringing 3-6x5 of them.
i would say cost comparison but...hopilites come in packs of 10 per purchase so even accounting the FW tax they still come out less $$$ than 2 ruststalker boxes lol Which is an insanely bizarre concept to think of...
i might as well get some, been meaning to and now they sound really tasty, Especially since dragoons suck now.
If Hoplites get the Forgeworld keyword in the FW books that's gonna make my day and fully justifies putting them in either data-hoard/Trans node power cores detachment or a expansionist/rugged explorers detachment. Might even buy a drill for them lol.
Now it's just irking me I can't take rugged explorers and trans node power cores together as my custom FWlol
Octovol wrote: If Hoplites get the Forgeworld keyword in the FW books that's gonna make my day and fully justifies putting them in either data-hoard/Trans node power cores detachment or a expansionist/rugged explorers detachment. Might even buy a drill for them lol.
Now it's just irking me I can't take rugged explorers and trans node power cores together as my custom FWlol
I have 30 Hoplites and 2 Drills that are going to see play regardless, if only because I spent around $400 on the models and I refuse to let them sit on the shelf. (I've got another 10 hoplites that need to be assembled/painted but with the new blast weapon rules and rule of 3 those I'm in no hurry to finish them). With the massive points hike on Duneriders, I might end up buying a 3rd drill.
PiñaColada wrote: Goonhammer has confirmed that the arquebus is 10 points each by the way. Rejoice!
Does that mean they remain 19ppm same as in 8th? The best sniper rifle in the game and its NET cost went down lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, random thought: With hit modifiers capped at -1/+1 does that mean we can Advance with Cognis weapons and that -2 can only be reduced to a NET -1? Obviously, if we used protector or something on Ironstriders for +2 to hit we'd still end up a NET +0 after advancing but that adds some additional mobility for Ironstriders if you need something to get to an objective and still shoot.
U02dah4 wrote: Only problem is now ypu can DS hoplites im not sure drills are optimal
Maybe, but I rarely deep struck the drills anyway. 10- 12 Hoplites and a drill are a pretty decent force to hold an objective, and the Melta Cutter/ drill CC weapon complement the arc spears a lot better than the Heavy Stubbers from the Dunerider ever did.
Coming from the sides of the board can have its limitations though, they're more predictable and will be further from their goal. Drill can at least strike everywhere it has room. Otherwise the Lucius strat still works.
I never was too big on multiple dogmas lists, but reading the custom ones I wonder if they're any we can use for specific tasks. If Hoplites get dogmas anytime Transnodal generators will be really powerful, especially coupled with the Artisan Warlord to give exploding 6s to wound against Vehicles in a pinch. Or I'm thinking about a small detachment with the buffed Irradiation to use Sulphurhounds as fast suicidal debuffers to lower the Toughness of as many units as they can for our firing line. If we want to play a mechanised list and trade firepower for resilience, the Datathesauriser world (dunno how it's written in English sorry) have interesting traits too; 6+ FNP for vehicle, and auto-reparation means we can save up to 9 wounds on a vehicle at once with this + double repair + Necromechanic trait.
Uh-oh, looks like Vigilus Detachments will be illegal in Competitive Play. Leaks from the GT Rulepack here from Rumours thread: https://imgur.com/a/uH74BUw
Aaranis wrote: Uh-oh, looks like Vigilus Detachments will be illegal in Competitive Play. Leaks from the GT Rulepack here from Rumours thread: https://imgur.com/a/uH74BUw
Uh... where does it say that? These are images, and we can't search through them easily.
Seems like deployment is hugely in favor for the one who goes first.
In favor for first:
No prepared positions, 2nd player doesnt decide which deployment, which side and where the markers will be placed. He also doesnt have to deploy fully before the 2nd anymore.
Terrain rules and los blocks will at least keep some shooting at bay AND as we now score at the beginning of our turn we have to move to objectives and hold it, which means the first player will have to move into position first, and will be in range of most of the opponents guns.
0XFallen wrote: Seems like deployment is hugely in favor for the one who goes first.
In favor for first:
No prepared positions, 2nd player doesnt decide which deployment, which side and where the markers will be placed. He also doesnt have to deploy fully before the 2nd anymore.
Terrain rules and los blocks will at least keep some shooting at bay AND as we now score at the beginning of our turn we have to move to objectives and hold it, which means the first player will have to move into position first, and will be in range of most of the opponents guns.
Well, we still get Shroudpsalm.
But I think 8E at the end favored the player who goes second too much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thoughts about this list?
Heavy Support - 605 3x Kastelan Robot - 9x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
Been thinking about squeezing a small unit of Robots into a mechanized list. Before this, I ran an extra transport, including Drills. But I did the math, and this firebase shuts out all of my friends' Marine lists if they go first.
Heavy Support - 605 3x Kastelan Robot - 9x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
Been thinking about squeezing a small unit of Robots into a mechanized list. Before this, I ran an extra transport, including Drills. But I did the math, and this firebase shuts out all of my friends' Marine lists if they go first.
I think this list looks neat. Ballistarii Autocannons are definitely going to be one of our top dogs, the mobility combined with the range and all possible buffs makes them a fantastic unit. And given their costs I wouldn't even feel bad if they died.
5 Autocannon Ballistarii buffed with +1 to Hit, +1 to Wound, +1S and AP-2 will average 18,51 wounds against MEQ and the same thing against a Rhino chassis. Even Repulsors with the +1S. Though trusting my maths if I had to chose a single buff to apply them it would be the AP-2 for when dealing with something under T7.
Though I'm curious if the Icarus Crawlers are not redundant in the context of your list, you already have lots of S6-S7 shooting with the Ballistarii/Robots, and even more anti-infantry with the Duneriders and Hoplites. What do you think about dropping a Robot and switching the Icarus for Neutron Lasers ? It would help you against anything T8 like Mechanised Guard or Repulsors. You'd have some points left for upgrades or more units.
Aaranis wrote: I think this list looks neat. Ballistarii Autocannons are definitely going to be one of our top dogs, the mobility combined with the range and all possible buffs makes them a fantastic unit. And given their costs I wouldn't even feel bad if they died.
5 Autocannon Ballistarii buffed with +1 to Hit, +1 to Wound, +1S and AP-2 will average 18,51 wounds against MEQ and the same thing against a Rhino chassis. Even Repulsors with the +1S. Though trusting my maths if I had to chose a single buff to apply them it would be the AP-2 for when dealing with something under T7.
Though I'm curious if the Icarus Crawlers are not redundant in the context of your list, you already have lots of S6-S7 shooting with the Ballistarii/Robots, and even more anti-infantry with the Duneriders and Hoplites. What do you think about dropping a Robot and switching the Icarus for Neutron Lasers ? It would help you against anything T8 like Mechanised Guard or Repulsors. You'd have some points left for upgrades or more units.
It's actually quite hard to kill Ballistarii. They tend to be ignored when there is high threat saturation. Plus, they are mobile and can maintain that 48" distance.
With the +1S bonus and cap on -1 to hit, Icarus Crawlers are the clear winner in the Crawler lineup; remember that they essentially ignore -1 to hit versus ground because they give themselves the debuff. Besides, I use my Autocannon Ballistarii for T8 vehicles, and Knights got nerfed pretty hard (not that Neutron Lasers would be ideal for killing them anyway).
If the Grator weapons were a typo, and they actually cost 130, I might switch back to 3 of them.
Vineheart01 wrote: in fact,the icarus is even more tasty now that the -1 is capped and doesnt care where the source is from.
Fire it at stuff that already has a -1, and bam no effect (well, stubbers will but big deal)
I think this applies to our cognis weapons after advancing as well. The rule says its a -2 penalty. But it can only be -1 now. Also makes the rage against the machines and protector work the same for an advancing ironstrider.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also how in the hell is a storm bolter still only 2 points on a termite drill yet a heavy stubber is 5pts? They want me to believe that at 24" 5 shots from storm bolters (2 and a half storm bolters for 5pts) is the same as 3 shots at 36" from a stubber and at 12" 10 shots is still the same as those 3 heavy stubber shots? They've lost their minds on this one lol
Imagine if all our vehicles had storm bolters instead how much better and cheaper they'd be :|
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually maybe these werent there before and the points are still adjusted in the field manual... there were datasheets uploaded for the drill, peltasts and hoplites on the 16th, I couldn't see any changes to them so assumed they'd just updated the points. But maybe these documents weren't there before? Anyone else know that or can see if anything else changed?
Ideasweasel wrote: I think the drills for 130 with flamers are pretty cheeky. Definitely going to be fielding mine
The regular transport points hike makes them feel worth it
I believe its melta weapon is blast too? Overall seems like a steal in comparison to the dunerider now. For just 30 points you lose canticles, cognisstubbers and 2 wounds for 2T, the Drill, D3 multimelta, 2 heavy flamers and extra transport capacity
My thinking is that I don't want to invest 30 points to improve my transport's shooting or fighting. Instead, I want to invest in making my firebase a better firebase, and keep my transports as cheap, fast, and useful as possible for an objectives-focused mission. (30 points is not cheap either. I can have 4 Boats or 3 Drills. I prefer 4 Boats.)
Anyhow, you lose 4" Move and the ability to advance and shoot when you switch to Drills. Remember that Heavy Flamers are not Assault, and with capped modifiers, Cognis just converts a Heavy weapon into an Assault weapon.
Furthermore, while the melta and drill are cool when they get in range, the problem is that they have to get in range. Your opponent can totally ignore your Drills in the first round. And once you are at the objective, you cannot park it; the Drill has to get close to do anything. The Boats, on the other hand, are outputting 12x S5 shots their entire way up to board and while parked on the objective.
The best parallel is that it is like the difference between shooty and choppy Scouts in Marine lists.
The datasheets from the 16th show the drill as 130pts base, 2pts for each storm bolter, 8 for each volkite charger and 17pts each for the heavy flamers. So unless all those weapons now have a zero cost and I missed it...?
Suzuteo wrote: Heavy Flamers were zero in the spoiler, weren't they?
I've not seen the spoiler but these datasheets for Peltasts, Hoplites and the Drill were uploaded on the 16th. I dont recall if they're just newly uploaded or if they replaced existing ones though: https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/
I find it hard to believe heavy flamers would be listed as zero points and the base vehicle cost stay the same 130pts though. If they were normalising the wargear costs for it, the base would go up and the weapons would come down. Is a storm bolter still 2pts in the marine leaks? Volkite chargers dont exist anywhere else I dont think but 17pts for a heavy flamer seems high given an incendine combustor is 15pts. So those datasheets might just be copies of the old ones, but if so, why upload them now with old points when CA is due out this weekend.
Suzuteo wrote: Heavy Flamers were zero in the spoiler, weren't they?
I've not seen the spoiler but these datasheets for Peltasts, Hoplites and the Drill were uploaded on the 16th. I dont recall if they're just newly uploaded or if they replaced existing ones though: https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/
I find it hard to believe heavy flamers would be listed as zero points and the base vehicle cost stay the same 130pts though. If they were normalising the wargear costs for it, the base would go up and the weapons would come down. Is a storm bolter still 2pts in the marine leaks? Volkite chargers dont exist anywhere else I dont think but 17pts for a heavy flamer seems high given an incendine combustor is 15pts. So those datasheets might just be copies of the old ones, but if so, why upload them now with old points when CA is due out this weekend.
Those are the 8th edition points. They also uploaded new copies of the Hoplites and Peltasts without updating the points.
Striking Scorpions YouTube video where he read off the Forge World 9th edition points stated Heavy Flamer as zero, but I haven’t seen any actual pictures leaked of the points. It could just be an error when he read off the points, Or it could be an error by GW. it does seem unusual that the heavy flamer cost would be built in, but GW has done odder things (like putting an Imperial Knight Castellan at 620 points and and Chaos Knight Castellan at 730 points).
Suzuteo wrote: Heavy Flamers were zero in the spoiler, weren't they?
I've not seen the spoiler but these datasheets for Peltasts, Hoplites and the Drill were uploaded on the 16th. I dont recall if they're just newly uploaded or if they replaced existing ones though: https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/
I find it hard to believe heavy flamers would be listed as zero points and the base vehicle cost stay the same 130pts though. If they were normalising the wargear costs for it, the base would go up and the weapons would come down. Is a storm bolter still 2pts in the marine leaks? Volkite chargers dont exist anywhere else I dont think but 17pts for a heavy flamer seems high given an incendine combustor is 15pts. So those datasheets might just be copies of the old ones, but if so, why upload them now with old points when CA is due out this weekend.
Those are the 8th edition points. They also uploaded new copies of the Hoplites and Peltasts without updating the points.
Striking Scorpions YouTube video where he read off the Forge World 9th edition points stated Heavy Flamer as zero, but I haven’t seen any actual pictures leaked of the points. It could just be an error when he read off the points, Or it could be an error by GW. it does seem unusual that the heavy flamer cost would be built in, but GW has done odder things (like putting an Imperial Knight Castellan at 620 points and and Chaos Knight Castellan at 730 points).
Wargear costs being zero is normally only when it's the default or if its the only option. If all 3 options were considered equal but with a tactical choice then I could see them being zero. but there's no way heavy flamers are equivalent to storm bolters and volkite chargers. Maybe they are...but then you'd expect the base drill cost to go up just like every other vehicle/model, not stay the same lol.
It could also be something as simple as GW pricing the Heavy Flamer at zero points for the knight crusader and forgetting it’s an option on the Drill. It’s not like they’ve never made that kind of mistake before (Looking at you zero point heavy phosphor blasters in Engine War and 65 point Dakkabots).
Mariongodspeed wrote: It could also be something as simple as GW pricing the Heavy Flamer at zero points for the knight crusader and forgetting it’s an option on the Drill. It’s not like they’ve never made that kind of mistake before (Looking at you zero point heavy phosphor blasters in Engine War and 65 point Dakkabots).
Yeah I mean I don't doubt that that's a possibility, but for a heavy flamer? It's not exactly a super-niche weapon only a few units have, it's all over the place! Well, It won't be long I guess until someone properly has the book and can see the points.
I'm hoping GW gives me a better reason than "here's a list building tool" to sub to the app during this week's previews so I can decide where/how/if I'm buying the CA books. I'm pessimistic at best, but still, there's every chance they're holding out on us to stir up hype about it, (no such thing as bad publicity so to speak) only to release info on a cool feature that makes people forget what they're paying for. Apple does it all the time, there were a bunch of things missing and wrong with the earlier iPhones but there were also a handful of REALLY well-polished features that really shone, everyone forgets about the little things if there are a couple of really stonking things in there.
I'm anxiously waiting to see what happens the first time GW's app doesn't agree with their codexes or the latest chapter approved (inevitably there will be some niche cases with weapons availability or pricing) to see what takes precedence.
Same with volkite weapons. With the Dominus', the new variant and the Drills variant having similar but different effects. 2/3 do D2, 2/3 do mortal wounds
Suzuteo wrote: Keeping this in mind, I have no idea why the Belleros Energy Mortar is 20 points. Should be 0 and the Ferrumite Cannon 5 points.
I see your reasoning but I wonder why the Ferrumite isn't cheaper than the Belleros actually. It's NEVER taken as a weapon option and costs more, it's the Kastelan Fists syndrome again. And it might be a worthy weapon against Eradicators and other 3W units we see in game now.
Suzuteo wrote: Keeping this in mind, I have no idea why the Belleros Energy Mortar is 20 points. Should be 0 and the Ferrumite Cannon 5 points.
I see your reasoning but I wonder why the Ferrumite isn't cheaper than the Belleros actually. It's NEVER taken as a weapon option and costs more, it's the Kastelan Fists syndrome again. And it might be a worthy weapon against Eradicators and other 3W units we see in game now.
To be honest, it's actually a very, very good gun. When I pointed out to my friend that it was more much more point efficient than a Caladius (back when it was ridiculously OP), he was astounded; the only downside is that it did not have Fly.
Now that it's S9, it's even stronger. Ferrumite Grators beat Neutron Crawlers for anti-tank hands down. (Assuming that it comes down to 135 points, anyway.) The problem is that it competes with non-LOS shooting, which is just so much more valuable for us because we already have a bunch of amazing LOS shooting choices. Plus, there's also Autocannon Ballistarii at S8 with +1 to wound against a non-Titan target.
Feels odd to be seeing this so soon after a large AM release so I am thinking an AM character for some sort of specialist game is likely, a la Combat Arena, Blackstone Fortress, etc
Madjob wrote: Feels odd to be seeing this so soon after a large AM release so I am thinking an AM character for some sort of specialist game is likely, a la Combat Arena, Blackstone Fortress, etc
Combat Arena was part of Blackstone Fortress.
Remember though that Engine War and its associated stuff? Not as big as you think. Three new unit 'types'(Serberys cavalry, Pteraxii jump units, the Archaeopter) and 'first time in general, book printed material' for the other items(Skorpius variants and Manipulus).
It also was supposed to be out the first week of April, not May/June like it came out at eventually. The Lumineth book alone tells us how far behind everything is release-wise, as the points for them were "current as of April 2020"...and that just came out a few weeks ago!
There are two Rumor Engines that have an AdMech flair to them.
This Servo-Skull(June 16th) is the other one, while the pistol shown above is the most recent.
Spoiler:
Remember as well that we would have been seeing the announcements of a new edition probably the first week of June(which would have been after Pariah was released), with teasers before that. What we're seeing now? Is probably something we'll get with our actual Codex or a box associated with that.
Kanluwen wrote: It's a bit large to be a pistol, don't ya think?
Yeah, looking at in on my computer instead of my phone it looks a lot clearer. The bit I took to be a trigger on the bottom right of the photo is probably not, and the cylindrical piece on the bottom left of the photo I took to be reminiscent of the chamber on a revolver is probably not, so overall the gun is probably larger than a pistol.
Whatever it is, it definitely looks to be Skitarii. The barrel looks to be similar to the Radium Carbine, there's a 'cylinder' that looks similar to the grip underneath of the Carbine, another cylinder that looks similar to a scaled down version of the Arc Rifle's 'coils' or Radium's 'radgooper' in front of the cylinder on the Carbine...maybe it's some kind of shotgun-ish Galvanic/Arc/Radium weapon?
Spoiler:
If you look underneath of the glowy arc bits, you'll see what I'm referring to there.
As a sidenote, was this statement always there?
One model can be made into an Alpha, fitted with an enhanced data-tether or an omnispex - the box truly portrays the compulsive data-gathering nature of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Suzuteo wrote: @Kanluwen I think that line dates back to 7E.
That would be super weird because the Alpha can't take those...at least for Rangers and Vanguard.
You know who can though? Secutarii.
You're 100% right though. I just looked back and found it in the 2015 product blurbs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tastyfish wrote: Looks like a relic radium carbine, with just a bit of extra housing to me. The 'revolver cylinder' is even in the right place.
Ehhh...the cylinder's in the same spot as a Galvanic Rifle or Carbine as well. It's interesting that the revolver cylinder is used for such a big chunk of our gear.
Madjob wrote: Feels odd to be seeing this so soon after a large AM release so I am thinking an AM character for some sort of specialist game is likely, a la Combat Arena, Blackstone Fortress, etc
Combat Arena was part of Blackstone Fortress.
Remember though that Engine War and its associated stuff? Not as big as you think. Three new unit 'types'(Serberys cavalry, Pteraxii jump units, the Archaeopter) and 'first time in general, book printed material' for the other items(Skorpius variants and Manipulus).
It also was supposed to be out the first week of April, not May/June like it came out at eventually. The Lumineth book alone tells us how far behind everything is release-wise, as the points for them were "current as of April 2020"...and that just came out a few weeks ago!
There are two Rumor Engines that have an AdMech flair to them.
This Servo-Skull(June 16th) is the other one, while the pistol shown above is the most recent.
Spoiler:
Remember as well that we would have been seeing the announcements of a new edition probably the first week of June(which would have been after Pariah was released), with teasers before that. What we're seeing now? Is probably something we'll get with our actual Codex or a box associated with that.
Combat Arena landed before the BSF expansion which repackaged the same models, so they're distinct. I'm splitting hairs, I know, in fact it's likely that Combat Arena is the repack which only landed first because Barnes and Noble made it a part of their deal to carry it first and exclusively - they wouldn't have wanted the BSF expansion taking away sales on the combat arena boxes. That said, yes, I would call this release wave "large", particularly by the established pattern by existing AM releases. The original Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus releases numbered 4 kits each. That's how many we've gotten this time around, too.
Though when I think about it that way, it does possibly make it look like they're splitting the Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii waves again? We haven't actually had any new CM models outside of characters like the Manipulus, Dr. D, and his servitor pal. I know I still would really like for a new plastic basic servitor kit, though none of the rumor engines that are obviously Imperial tech seem to point to them.
Kanluwen wrote: Whatever it is, it definitely looks to be Skitarii. The barrel looks to be similar to the Radium Carbine, there's a 'cylinder' that looks similar to the grip underneath of the Carbine, another cylinder that looks similar to a scaled down version of the Arc Rifle's 'coils' or Radium's 'radgooper' in front of the cylinder on the Carbine...maybe it's some kind of shotgun-ish Galvanic/Arc/Radium weapon?
I wouldn't lock it in as Skitarii just yet, TPDs carry phosphor serpentas which feature the filigree commonly seen on Skitarii weapons, and the coils are also present on their macrostubbers. So there is some established commonality between the sort of weapons a Cult Mechanicus unit could carry and what a Skitarii unit would carry.
That's assuming Combat Arena is a repack and that it wasn't just planned to function that way. Not saying one way or the other, just that it might be they planned it out for both markets at the same time.
Anyways, this release wave wasn't 4 new kits. It was 3(Cavalry, Flyer, Pteraxii) plus a standalone release(Manipulus) that had been available before as part of a Kill-Team set.
You're right that the Dominii have weapons that do have shared elements but it does kinda/sorta look to be a bit heftier than some of the gear we've seen so far for the Techpriests.
Random, wild, fire from the sky speculation... IF there's anything there for my hunch for some new stuff coming, we might be seeing a sneak peek for whatever the next Indomitus styled 'Battlebox' will be. There's a couple of Death Guard styled pieces(a power fist, the 'wings', the piping coming out of a backplate) from the Rumor Engine and a couple of AdMech ones that we have here...and spoiler, they actually make a mention in our codex of a Death Guard and AdMech fight going on for the planet of Triplex Phall!
We might be seeing a preview for Secutarii(this weapon...we know something's up with the unit type since Duneriders and the Transvector both can transport them now...oh and Transvectors literally cannot transport the current Peltast or Hoplite units which start out at 10 models base), a Skitarii/Secutarii HQ(the Servo-Skull), and then we might see Servitors with some Easy Build Electropriests or something.
So, who is going full Kataphron mode now with the points information?
I was planning to run way more Fulgurite-Dunerider units, but with the points increase I'll probably scale those down and include plenty of Breachers that I already wanted, as well as Grav-Stroyers thanks to their points drop. It just seems too good to pass up.
I am doing Boatspam still. Firebase with 5x Auto Ballistarii, 2x Icarus Crawler, 3x Dakkabots. Assault element with 4 Boats loaded with 20 Hoplites and 20 barebones Vanguard.
I'm definitely running a couple Icarus Dune Crawlers, I luckily found a couple old Start Collecting boxes.
Any reason why you're running bare bone Vanguard as opposed to double 5 man squads with 2x Plasma each? The points in 9th for a Plasma Vanguard didn't change from 8th, which definitely makes them more appealing. Especially when you consider a boat can hold four of the special weapons.
The Hoplites are definitely awesome right now, same with the Dakkas and Auto Ballistarii. My pile of shame includes a few Ironstrider kits that I originally planned to make into Dragoons but will now become Ballistarii.
Techpriest_ wrote: Any reason why you're running bare bone Vanguard as opposed to double 5 man squads with 2x Plasma each? The points in 9th for a Plasma Vanguard didn't change from 8th, which definitely makes them more appealing. Especially when you consider a boat can hold four of the special weapons.
The Hoplites are definitely awesome right now, same with the Dakkas and Auto Ballistarii. My pile of shame includes a few Ironstrider kits that I originally planned to make into Dragoons but will now become Ballistarii.
Their only purpose is to capture the objective. Maybe assist the Hoplites in fighting. I am not really investing in expendable objective holders. I would rather put those points into my firebase, which is going to be parked next to a bunch of auras. (If I wanted to do Plasma Vanguard, I would run nothing but Plasma Vanguard just about.)
Well, you lucked out then. I magnetized mine from the start, so I escaped Dragoonpocalypse.
EDIT: Random question, but does Shroudpsalm now grant Light Cover, Heavy Cover, or both?
Techpriest_ wrote: Any reason why you're running bare bone Vanguard as opposed to double 5 man squads with 2x Plasma each? The points in 9th for a Plasma Vanguard didn't change from 8th, which definitely makes them more appealing. Especially when you consider a boat can hold four of the special weapons.
The Hoplites are definitely awesome right now, same with the Dakkas and Auto Ballistarii. My pile of shame includes a few Ironstrider kits that I originally planned to make into Dragoons but will now become Ballistarii.
Their only purpose is to capture the objective. Maybe assist the Hoplites in fighting. I am not really investing in expendable objective holders. I would rather put those points into my firebase, which is going to be parked next to a bunch of auras. (If I wanted to do Plasma Vanguard, I would run nothing but Plasma Vanguard just about.)
Well, you lucked out then. I magnetized mine from the start, so I escaped Dragoonpocalypse.
EDIT: Random question, but does Shroudpsalm now grant Light Cover, Heavy Cover, or both?
Fair enough. I guess I was too into the mindset of driving them up to an enemy unit, hopping out, and hoping to blast whatever it is I'm shooting off of the board. They make fine objective holders as well though. Are you running them in squads of 5 with multiple in a boat?
I'm rather sad about the Dragoon changes, and Dunerider changes, I was really hoping to run a more melee Admech with Dragoons and heavy Fulgurites, but that's not all that possible now.
Yeah dragoons feel like they got mega-slapped with the nerfbat. Price hyked, -2 in shooting doesnt stack unless its negating a +1 somewhere, and exploding6s on natural rolls now.
They arent super resilient, they arent super killy anymore, and theyre quite pricy. I dont see any way to use them now, even ruststalkers feel better lol (just from sheer MW chance alone)
On the plus side they were the most breakable unit i own and not having to transport it anymore is definitely a bonus. Ive list track of the number of lances ive glued back on
Own any pterraxi? trust me they take the crown on fragile buggers. I am terrified of sticking them in foam trays as their pokey wings might dig into the foam and get ripped off as i pull them out without noticing it happened.
Honestly have no idea how to transport them except just a magnetic sheet.
Vineheart01 wrote: Own any pterraxi? trust me they take the crown on fragile buggers. I am terrified of sticking them in foam trays as their pokey wings might dig into the foam and get ripped off as i pull them out without noticing it happened.
Honestly have no idea how to transport them except just a magnetic sheet.
Magnetic sheet is my answer to all my transport woes lol. If its anything other than standard or blocky infantry it's getting a magnet and standing on a magnetic sheet for transport. means I can use the extremely compact cases for just regular infantry and only the awkward or bulky stuff goes on the sheet. So All of my skorpius, ironstriders and onagers go on it. When I eventually get some Pteraxii they'll go on it too. Everything else is pretty standard for foam trays.
Yeah, I have no idea how I'd transport the pteraxii if I didn't have a magnetised case. Although to be honest, I'm not sure how the foam business is still around considering how vastly superior I find magnets to be. I think I've managed to switch over every single player I play with regularly and now all of them swear by it.
i just wish i knew where i could find cheap ferrous sheets to do such a storage thing with.
Metal toolboxes are great for your active list but not for storing the models until you need them lol. They aint cheap to buy in quantities that high to encase your entire army.
I'd argue you don't need to make the entire thing out of metal, mine is more like an oven with a bunch of metal trays, that I can swap around in position. Depending on your level of handiness (and access to tools) that's something you can make yourself. Otherwise I've seen people buy from Armybox and their solution looks similar to mine for not a too crazy price IIRC.
Oh i definitely wouldnt want it to be full metal, i'd probably just stuff them into the Battlebox cardboard boxes with pillars bolted on so they stack neatly. A full metal, full army storage...i dont feel like having a 200lb box on wheels lol.
Realistically i should be looking into this more as i actually cannot store my orks right now, too many large irregular bodies for foam and simply just way too many in the first place lol. Another advantage of metal sheets vs foam is less wasted space between the models...right now my orks take up 2 6'6" tall shelves lol. Moving to my new house was...interesting with that fact...
If you're just looking for cheap metal trays then I had a buddy who hit up some rinky-dink shop that had a sale on old metal posters and he got them for like a dollar or two each (they were A4 sized) so he bought a bunch of those. Might be worth looking into?
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh i definitely wouldnt want it to be full metal, i'd probably just stuff them into the Battlebox cardboard boxes with pillars bolted on so they stack neatly.
A full metal, full army storage...i dont feel like having a 200lb box on wheels lol.
Realistically i should be looking into this more as i actually cannot store my orks right now, too many large irregular bodies for foam and simply just way too many in the first place lol. Another advantage of metal sheets vs foam is less wasted space between the models...right now my orks take up 2 6'6" tall shelves lol. Moving to my new house was...interesting with that fact...
I got my metal sheets from eBay from a regional metalworking company for pretty cheap, like £8-12 per cut-to-order sheet or so I think it was. Then I just got a few under-bed storage boxes turned them upside down and stuck the sheet metal to the underside of the lid using some heavy-duty 3M double-sided sticky pads.
The biggest issue I have is the magnets coming loose from the models themselves when I try and take them off the sheet lol
If your magnets are coming loose then the magnets are too strong unfortunately. Just get weaker ones and add more of them if necessary. In my experience you need a lot less adhesive force than you'd expect. 4x2mm neodymium are what I use, if one isn't enough just add another one until there's enough force.
I use jewelry trays with cut sheet metal inserts that I glued in with epoxy. Then I got a nice aluminum wheeled jewelry carry case from the same site as the jewelry trays.
I found a site online that would cut the stainless steel to custom measurements, so no tools required.
I also learned the hard way to get the thinnest metal sheets available; my first ones are much heavier than they needed to be.
Another solution could just be to put magnets in a tray. Just make sure the polarity is correct. Then it's no different than how you hold parts on a mini with magnets.
Techpriest_ wrote: Fair enough. I guess I was too into the mindset of driving them up to an enemy unit, hopping out, and hoping to blast whatever it is I'm shooting off of the board. They make fine objective holders as well though. Are you running them in squads of 5 with multiple in a boat?
I'm rather sad about the Dragoon changes, and Dunerider changes, I was really hoping to run a more melee Admech with Dragoons and heavy Fulgurites, but that's not all that possible now.
That strategy works still. You just need to be aggressive and in their face. My thinking is more defensive. Get to the objective, circle the Boats, limit your opponent's options.
Fulgurites might actually be worth it still. They are maybe 1-2 ppm overpriced, but not bad. They just have to compete with Hoplites, which is tough because they are an amazing 10 ppm. Melee is actually quite important in 9E though.
But yeah, Dragoons got shot, buried alive, exhumed, shot again, and then burned alive. I actually think ranged Dragoons might be better than melee Dragoons now. Lol.
U02dah4 wrote: On the plus side they were the most breakable unit i own and not having to transport it anymore is definitely a bonus. Ive list track of the number of lances ive glued back on
It's that antenna on the top that breaks most often for me. My lances are magnetized, so they pop off instead of snapping.
Concerning transportation, I drilled some holes in a Hefty box lid, glued some PVC spacers in, then attached some cookie trays to them:
All of my minis are based on MDF bases with a magnet inside of them. It holds better than directly attaching the magnet to plastic, which regularly snaps off.
Also, this is very cheap. The boxes cost me $8 on discount from Walmart; the cookie trays were $2.50 (need two); the fittings were $4. So $17 per box, which stores over 2000 points in the new edition.
Hey Suzuteo, do you mind taking a picture of the models packed up for transport? I'm really interested, but I'm having a hard time picturing the whole thing put together.
Basically, I carry them around like this. The models are rightside up, but the container is upside down.
To describe the layers from top to bottom:
Hefty container
Bolt tip and nut
Cookie sheet
Bolt head
Hefy lid
There are also PVC spacers to help offset the cookie sheet from the lid. This helps keep things stable because the lid can flex, but the sheets cannot. I would not want the screws to wear the holes in the lid.
Only advice is to make sure your cookie sheets have sufficient iron in them. Use an N32 with some small weights and see how much it can hold. In my case, all of my vehicles use N52s, but my infantry can get away with N32s.
Basically, I carry them around like this. The models are rightside up, but the container is upside down.
To describe the layers from top to bottom:
Hefty container
Bolt tip and nut
Cookie sheet
Bolt head
Hefy lid
There are also PVC spacers to help offset the cookie sheet from the lid. This helps keep things stable because the lid can flex, but the sheets cannot. I would not want the screws to wear the holes in the lid.
This is exactly how mine look as well lol. Though I'm tempted to put my infantry in foam just because it saves me having to glue tiny magnets to a gazillion bases lol
Ot you can go fancy like I did and built that gak yourself
Custom cut metal sheets from the craft store
Custom cut plywood from the same craft store to give some stability
Furniture feet and a box from the same store
apply primer, laquer, decals
Drill a few holes for the handles (guess where they were from )
Stick magnets in the bases and you're done.
Since the entire thing is higher than the box I framed the topmost one to prevent sliding off, though with the size of the thing I dont think I''ll have to use it anytime soon.
Wondering if the custom Forge World with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles as primary and the secondary that gives rerolls to hit at half range for Cognis guns might be cool in Ironstriders-heavy lists. I mean if you use 2 or 3 units and can't be close to Cawl all the time it gives them more accuracy, and synergises well with the trait to have +1 AP at half-range.
I'm thinking about these as I have a small friendly 12 players tournament next month (at 1000 pts) and I hesitate between two ideas. First one is 6x5 Vanguards with AP-1 carbines, supported by 4 Autocannons, 3 Sulphurhounds and 2 Fistelans. Second is not written yet but I'm thinking 4 Autocannons, 2 Lascannons and maybe 2 Kastelans with Fists or HPB but with less infantry then, all with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles and the Cognis reroll at half range. Both lists would have the Artisan Warlord trait for the AP and occasional retreat + shoot.
I've run the numbers for Vanguards with AP-1 and AP-2 at 9" against MEQ and the numbers are quite nice for the point cost. AP-1, reroll 1s to Hit gives 2,91w and AP-2, reroll 1s to Hit gives 3,88w. I'm counting rerolls because I plan on having the Dominus coming with them.
I'd like to run a thematic and fun list without too much cheese but that still packs a punch and toying with the custom dogmas looks fun so far.
I don’t know, every time I look at the custom Forge World stuff I feel like you give up too much (Forge World canticles, Forge World stratagems, etc...) for them to be attractive. I’d rather have the +1 str canticle from Mars on multiple groups of Ironstriders, especially if you’re using the -1 AP at half range aura.
If you try out the custom forge worlds stuff let us know how well it works for you. I WANT it to be a decent option, but I’m not convinced it actually IS one.
Mariongodspeed wrote: I don’t know, every time I look at the custom Forge World stuff I feel like you give up too much (Forge World canticles, Forge World stratagems, etc...) for them to be attractive. I’d rather have the +1 str canticle from Mars on multiple groups of Ironstriders, especially if you’re using the -1 AP at half range aura.
If you try out the custom forge worlds stuff let us know how well it works for you. I WANT it to be a decent option, but I’m not convinced it actually IS one.
The real benefits of the +1 str canticle are on Breachers with Heavy Arc Rifles and anything with Heavy Stubbers. When I realised that the +1 to Wound from the target pattern identified strat, numbers-wise, gives Ballistarii the same benefit as the canticle against a T7 target and even more benefit against less tough targets, I stopped really worrying about fitting a Mars detachment in. You still only really take Mars for Cawl and more reliable canticles. Don't get me wrong that Mars canticle is good and using BOTH the canticle and strat on your autocannons gives you an equal cumulative bonus. Especially as your ironstriders/onagers can also be given +2(1) to hit without any supporting mechanisms.
Breachers on the other hand benefit enormously from the +1 str but again its comparable to the custom FW trans node power cores dogma, +1 str edges it a bit but it depends on your target. Against vehicles your +1 str is better, against anything else the exploding 5-6 to hit gives you a net 100% shots hit on average. But that also works on their melee weapons which the +1 str canticle does nothing for.
If you're taking robots they obviously benefit from the +1 str, but your main targets there aren't all that tough. You're not really shooting them at vehicles or monsters and if you are you're probably using WoM which makes the str bonus somewhat irrelevant.
The +1 str is like all the other Mars tactics, its simple, straight forward, you dont have to think about it much and its effective. But boy is it bland. This is the worst thing I find about the way they've designed our army at the moment, the bonuses they keep giving us are all just amplifying the same thing, which makes us predictable and one-dimensional. The other options are getting better, but most of them rely yet again on strategms or buffing a single element at the expense of everything else.
My worry at the moment is that our best battle tank is now our least efficient. Even the Stratorapter has more to offer than a Skorpius for the same cost! So I'm busy trying to come up with ways to include reliable anti-armour that wont fold in the wind and doesn't cost the earth. My anti-armour was going to be 4 x ironstriders with autocannons, 2 x Icarus onagers and then 3 x 4 Breachers. but without trans node power cores or the +1 str canticle Breachers are really up against it imo. They're our only tough infantry but they need a whole lot of support to get stuff done.
I plan on trying out the trans node power core breachers once I finish assembling & painting enough Kataphrons (I only had 9 before now and I usually ran them as Plasma Destroyers). It’s the one custom Forge World trait that seemed to be worth the trade off as far as I saw.
I’d just begun using Mars (and Cawl) after Engine War came out. I’d historically run Stygies VIII but the +1 str on Icarus Crawlers, Autocannon Balistarii, and Belleros Disintegrators was too good to pass up.
I guess I really just wish they’d have given us a couple custom canticle options for the custom forge worlds, to get them closer to on par with the existing forge worlds. Like you pointed out, it seems all our interesting options only buff a single element of the army at the expense of everything else.
Aaranis wrote: Wondering if the custom Forge World with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles as primary and the secondary that gives rerolls to hit at half range for Cognis guns might be cool in Ironstriders-heavy lists. I mean if you use 2 or 3 units and can't be close to Cawl all the time it gives them more accuracy, and synergises well with the trait to have +1 AP at half-range.
Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
Aaranis wrote: Wondering if the custom Forge World with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles as primary and the secondary that gives rerolls to hit at half range for Cognis guns might be cool in Ironstriders-heavy lists. I mean if you use 2 or 3 units and can't be close to Cawl all the time it gives them more accuracy, and synergises well with the trait to have +1 AP at half-range.
Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Mariongodspeed wrote: I plan on trying out the trans node power core breachers once I finish assembling & painting enough Kataphrons (I only had 9 before now and I usually ran them as Plasma Destroyers). It’s the one custom Forge World trait that seemed to be worth the trade off as far as I saw.
I’d just begun using Mars (and Cawl) after Engine War came out. I’d historically run Stygies VIII but the +1 str on Icarus Crawlers, Autocannon Balistarii, and Belleros Disintegrators was too good to pass up.
I guess I really just wish they’d have given us a couple custom canticle options for the custom forge worlds, to get them closer to on par with the existing forge worlds. Like you pointed out, it seems all our interesting options only buff a single element of the army at the expense of everything else.
I dunno, as much as I want to like Breachers, 420pts for 12 not-outstanding models feels like a big chunk. Breachers are the only thing worth building around for trans node power cores imo. And you still need daedalosus and a dominus/cawl nearby. Its just another all-eggs one basket approach. We're just crippled by average choices we need to buff the crap out of to make useful, which creates an inherent flaw in all our lists. The only things we have that don't need immense support are Balistarii and Onager. Raiders and Breachers feel like the only things we have that can get to the Midfield and have any hope of holding it. Short of taking overpriced transports full of infantry that die even faster!
The other thing that bugs me about the custom FW dogmas is some of them are just plain bad. Like not 'niche useful', just awful. All the time. You'd never pick them ever. +1" movement for Kataphrons, and Onagers? Wtf! RANGERS can move 6" at the start of the battle. Pointless. The +6" range on rapid-fire weapons might sound good but we have like 3 of those and none of them are worth building around. I'd LOVE to hear the designers commentary around the choices of those abilities, please please tell me what wisdom you had in your head where that crap is ever useful lol.
I've consider Accelerated Actuators combined with a Ryza patrol for the Ryza canticle that gives melee +1ap. +2ap for every melee weapon is potentially decent on stuff like Raiders and Sterylizors that already have mostly ap -1 already and a lot of attacks. Just a shame you'd be then wasting the re-roll melee wounds of 1 on the other detachment. I guess you could put Plasma destroyers in your Ryza patrol, that way you do actually get something out of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Corpuscarii with ap-4 melee attacks lol
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
Mariongodspeed wrote:I don’t know, every time I look at the custom Forge World stuff I feel like you give up too much (Forge World canticles, Forge World stratagems, etc...) for them to be attractive. I’d rather have the +1 str canticle from Mars on multiple groups of Ironstriders, especially if you’re using the -1 AP at half range aura.
If you try out the custom forge worlds stuff let us know how well it works for you. I WANT it to be a decent option, but I’m not convinced it actually IS one.
Oh I'll definitely tell you all about my experiences as soon as I can get a game ! But as I said I'm not trying to be overly competitive in this friendly tourney, I've changed my mindset about the game to be happier about it and I think it's working.
Kanluwen wrote:The custom Forge World stuff works out well if you build for it from the outset.
You say the truth, but I'd even spread that to most regular Dogmas. It's just that Mars is so blatantly favoured by the rules that we end up relying mostly on it to do the job, because it's straight-forward and works well enough with every list.
I'm reading Engine War again and finding a few things that I believe are interesting to at least look into. I remember the earlier discussion about Ruststalkers, and while doing my Radium shenanigans I noticed AP was really important (I mean I never noticed it THAT MUCH before, woe me) and made them way deadlier. One of the Ruststalkers' weaknesses is their lack of AP and reliance on 6s to Wound. Playing Ryza can soften these weaknesses: Ryza's dogma gives rerolls of 1s to Wound in CC to fish for 6s more reliably, and their new Canticle gives +1AP.
I think building a list around an agressive CC force could be interesting to talk about. I even see Sulphurhounds as useful in this scenario to bring the Toughness debuff to key targets, and with AP-1 they can be a bit more dangerous as well. As for transportation, I noticed that you can fit 10 Ruststalkers in a Dunerider, so that's a way to deliver them. Can go bonkers on them and go 3x10 for 420 pts and 60W (boats not included). Suddenly 31 attacks at S4-5 AP-1 that can get mortal wounds look worth looking into, considering this edition favours assault-y lists. Plus, the Ol' Ryzaphrons still work somewhat, or boats filled with 4 plasma Vanguards. Bonus if you charge with them to give the debuff and wound Marines on 4+ at AP-1 with their carbines' butts.
All this to say that we have loads of interesting options and even if they're not obviously the most easy and competitive way to play, they might surprise people when playing against an unconventional AdMech list. I'll continue digging.
Suzuteo wrote:Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
Ah if I had the budget to make these kinds of list come true I'd play this in a heartbeat. But yeah, rule of three. Playing 2x10 or 3x10 Hoplites in boats is an old dream of mine but I'm still wary buying FW considering their rules have Schrodinger's Cat's aura all over them (will they exist tomorrow ?) and the hefty pricetag of these it's not planned for now.
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
But not fit in 6 transports
Also just realised Breachers can get free WoM with a HO Warlord trait against vehicles, not exactly swimming in shots, but still, free WoM without Mars! I think I'm back on the Breacher train. +1 to hit from Daedalossus, RR1 from Dominus with Genetor and Artisan from a Manipulus, as well as a +6" on their range, has all kinds of possibilities if every model somehow managed to be within 6" of all 3 of them lol. I think there's enough flexibility for them to move their castle around or split up one tech priest to each and if I need one squad to hold an objective The Dominus with Genetor should give them a lot of resilience. I know how hard it is to remove a squad of plague marines, and these have more wounds!
So Right now I think my starting 1500pt 9th ed list is gonna be something like:
Ah if I had the budget to make these kinds of list come true I'd play this in a heartbeat. But yeah, rule of three. Playing 2x10 or 3x10 Hoplites in boats is an old dream of mine but I'm still wary buying FW considering their rules have Schrodinger's Cat's aura all over them (will they exist tomorrow ?) and the hefty pricetag of these it's not planned for now.
I’d certainly wait to see what the new Forge World index does before buying any more from them, but honestly the hoplites aren’t that expensive. $70 for 10 models is cheaper than most of our stuff, and you can recoup a bit of that cost by selling the Transuranic Arquebus and Plasma Caliver that comes with the skitarii (or just buy the upgrade sprue if you have extra Skitarii laying around unassembled).
Admech was my first army (only 2 years ago) and our range was so limited I didn’t hesitate to buy hoplites and drills from Forge World. (Not knowing they difference between GW and Forge World at the time). I’ve gotta say they worked out well for me.
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
Alas, Boats only fit 10 Hoplites.
Hoplites don't need boats.
Not kidding. I've never ran mine in boats, have done well with them.
@Kanluwen
IMO Boats and Skitarii complement one another. The Boats provide supporting fire, protect them from shooting, and also LOS block for them. The Skitarii deal with fighting and provide ObSec.
In other words, a Boat with 10x Hoplites is worth more than 2x Boats or 2x10 Hoplites
The boat is still my go to for Priests, Vanguard, and Hoplites, but the Drill isn't bad either and can fit a few extra guys in it. The points between the boat and drill are much closer after the increase as well.
Aaranis wrote: Wondering if the custom Forge World with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles as primary and the secondary that gives rerolls to hit at half range for Cognis guns might be cool in Ironstriders-heavy lists. I mean if you use 2 or 3 units and can't be close to Cawl all the time it gives them more accuracy, and synergises well with the trait to have +1 AP at half-range.
Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
Yeah, I think that's a huge design oversight on the boats. It'd have been so easy to future-proof it like every other Marine vehicle with 12. That might get changed with a new codex. The Transvector holds 6 rather than 5, so maybe it's something they're aware of.
But hey, I footslog my infantry so it doesn't bother me too much.
Fortunately they’re not mutually exclusive. I run both, usually one drill to carry a couple support characters with 10 Fulgurites or hoplites alongside a couple boats.
DarkHound wrote: Yeah, I think that's a huge design oversight on the boats. It'd have been so easy to future-proof it like every other Marine vehicle with 12. That might get changed with a new codex. The Transvector holds 6 rather than 5, so maybe it's something they're aware of.
But hey, I footslog my infantry so it doesn't bother me too much.
This assumes that the Primus can't take a 'command squad' equivalent or that we're getting just the Primus....
That had crossed my mind as well, but there's not much to speculate on yet. There's a lot of existing Skitarii lore that they aren't using, so it's more likely they'll just make up something new. But yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if he gets a personal retinue including some advisers.
It would be pretty cool to get Doctrines back as psuedo orders (not that I was playing when they existed). There's lots of stuff they could do with the Primus downloading specific routines for the combat situation at hand. The reveal so far implies he's not a beatstick, so he'll probably have alternating buffs ala the Holy Orders and Canticles. I think our rotating buffs are distinct enough from IG Orders that we could stand to have a command structure.
This is the best day since the Skorpius release. They can stop releasing products for AdMech for a long time after this release, we're pretty much a complete army if we get a Skitarii HQ.
My wishlisting:
- Around 50-70 pts
- Can fight well in CC - 5 Wounds, TOUGHNESS 4 PLEASE Skitarii are not flimsy they're made of metal
- Allows different activable buffs to either ranged or melee like the Ordos, or Doctrinas of yore, so that we can tailor our playstyle around a theme we like
- Has a bit of variety with gear choice and aesthetic, to do either a Vanguard or Ranger style Primus
- Maybe a dual kit to build one of two different datasheets ? Each with a different focus ?
Aaranis wrote: This is the best day since the Skorpius release. They can stop releasing products for AdMech for a long time after this release, we're pretty much a complete army if we get a Skitarii HQ.
My wishlisting:
- Around 50-70 pts
- Can fight well in CC - 5 Wounds, TOUGHNESS 4 PLEASE Skitarii are not flimsy they're made of metal
- Allows different activable buffs to either ranged or melee like the Ordos, or Doctrinas of yore, so that we can tailor our playstyle around a theme we like
- Has a bit of variety with gear choice and aesthetic, to do either a Vanguard or Ranger style Primus
- Maybe a dual kit to build one of two different datasheets ? Each with a different focus ?
Not even the Serberys are T4... sad beep. Admech deserve so much more in models and rules that I dont want to start that discussion a billionth time lol.
However we got a lot of movement and a 2nd tank mainly. We still lack a bit of stuff. A big meatstick HQ, a fast HQ, Infantry with anti tank weaponry, some more resilient elite/fast attack choices. and then there is the Cult part of the army that only got 2 HQs since its release. A big mechanical monstrosity for ~300+ points would be great, a tank, some elite priest group that arent naked crossfitters. Additionally there are a lot of flavorful units they could add.
Yes there could always be more variety, I'm thinking the Myrmidon stuff etc. but no other faction is going to get the variety the Astartes line gets. Even Drukharis don't have a fast HQ option and they're the faction that would use it the most :/ I think our army has a lot of different tools and can work really well in different scenarios at the moment, but that's my opinion of course.
Seeing the leaks (or should I say discreet previews) about the V9 codices of both Astartes and Necrons, I think we can assume every faction is going to get richer rules, and more interesting and thematic dogmas/chapter traits. We're really far away from our codex since the first announced are to release in October but I'm quite positive it'll be great.
Aaranis wrote: This is the best day since the Skorpius release. They can stop releasing products for AdMech for a long time after this release, we're pretty much a complete army if we get a Skitarii HQ.
My wishlisting:
- Around 50-70 pts
- Can fight well in CC - 5 Wounds, TOUGHNESS 4 PLEASE Skitarii are not flimsy they're made of metal
- Allows different activable buffs to either ranged or melee like the Ordos, or Doctrinas of yore, so that we can tailor our playstyle around a theme we like
- Has a bit of variety with gear choice and aesthetic, to do either a Vanguard or Ranger style Primus
- Maybe a dual kit to build one of two different datasheets ? Each with a different focus ?
I'd be all about this, as right now it feels like all of our HQ choices are just buff bots, with the exception of the Engineseer who is more of a filler HQ. So having something more proactive in terms of combat or shooting would be interesting to say the least.
I'd also like to see something like Rust Stalkers moved to Troops so we have an actual melee option for troops, as right now all we really have is Breachers, which are still a shooting unit.
- There won't be any publicly released 9e data until 2020-07-25 00:00 GMT at the earliest.
- It is likely to actually happen a few days later, as is the usual.
- We do not release data until the public street date of the publication it is in.
- The 9e datafiles will be just an update to the 8e files, replacing them via normal data updates.
We are working on it.
Currently QA is taking place and making very good progress. Early next week is probable.
Its a pretty massive task and we're not getting the source material any earlier than your average joe.
Thairne wrote: - There won't be any publicly released 9e data until 2020-07-25 00:00 GMT at the earliest.
- It is likely to actually happen a few days later, as is the usual.
- We do not release data until the public street date of the publication it is in.
- The 9e datafiles will be just an update to the 8e files, replacing them via normal data updates.
We are working on it.
Currently QA is taking place and making very good progress. Early next week is probable.
Its a pretty massive task and we're not getting the source material any earlier than your average joe.
Thairne wrote: - There won't be any publicly released 9e data until 2020-07-25 00:00 GMT at the earliest.
- It is likely to actually happen a few days later, as is the usual.
- We do not release data until the public street date of the publication it is in.
- The 9e datafiles will be just an update to the 8e files, replacing them via normal data updates.
We are working on it.
Currently QA is taking place and making very good progress. Early next week is probable.
Its a pretty massive task and we're not getting the source material any earlier than your average joe.
Thanks for the update a a heartfelt thank you to everyone involved in updating the BattleScribe data files!
Engine War FAQ up for us, it seems. I don't recall seeing it mentioned before.
Notables:
Page 40 – Archaeopter Transvector Add ‘Skitarii’ to this unit’s Faction keyword line.
Page 41 – Archaeopter Stratoraptor Add ‘Skitarii’ to this unit’s Faction keyword line.
Page 42 – Archaeopter Fusilave Add ‘Skitarii’ to this unit’s Faction keyword line.
Q: Can the Mechanicus Locum Stratagem be used to give characters other than your warlord one of the Holy Order Warlord Traits?
A: No. The Character is only considered your Warlord for the purposes of the Warlord Trait itself, not for what Warlord Traits it has access to.
Archaopter is now legally skitarii.
Pteraxii Alpha also has talons.
Forgeworld canticle schenanigans are removed.
Can someone please explain this to me?
Q: Can the Mechanicus Locum Stratagem be used to give
characters other than your warlord one of the Holy Order
Warlord Traits?
A: No. The Character is only considered your Warlord for the
purposes of the Warlord Trait itself, not for what Warlord Traits
it has access to.
Also, when you now move only one model in a unit, the whole unit counts as moved. Would that mean our arquebus cant fire? Or would that mean it can fire at a minus 1 if the model stood still?
Archaopter is now legally skitarii.
Pteraxii Alpha also has talons.
Forgeworld canticle schenanigans are removed.
Can someone please explain this to me?
Q: Can the Mechanicus Locum Stratagem be used to give
characters other than your warlord one of the Holy Order
Warlord Traits?
A: No. The Character is only considered your Warlord for the
purposes of the Warlord Trait itself, not for what Warlord Traits
it has access to.
Also, when you now move only one model in a unit, the whole unit counts as moved. Would that mean our arquebus cant fire? Or would that mean it can fire at a minus 1 if the model stood still?
Yeah no idea what's the intent of the question, and neither do I know what the answer mean, it's worded very weirdly.
Mechanicus Locum is the stratagem that lets us give a non-Warlord a Warlord Trait, while allowing that character to count as your Warlord for the purposes of the trait.
The Holy Order Warlord Traits(Genetor, Logos, Magos, Artisan) require a model to be your Warlord.
Who can take a Holy Order?
Your Warlord.
What does Mechanicum Locus do?
Allows you to give a non-Warlord character a Warlord Trait, which will let them count as your Warlord for the purposes of the trait that you give them.
Where did we land on Destroyers? I know everyone has been talking about Breachers, but I've been having a lot of success with 2 squads of Plasma Destroyers and a Manipulus to extend their range. You can basically hit nearly the whole board fairly hard.
Have had a lot success against MSU Chaos marine squads with the Fusilave Bomb Rack as well. Admittedly my dice have been pretty hot (this happens once every ten years or so - given there are no tourneys to go to, it would make sense for it to happen now), but I'm loving this thing and seriously thinking about adding a second one. Am I crazy with that?
EDITED:
Because I said "MSU Marine Squads" but meant "MSU CHAOS Marine" squads ...
0XFallen wrote: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/UmXOUOqTko49pABx.pdf
Also, when you now move only one model in a unit, the whole unit counts as moved. Would that mean our arquebus cant fire? Or would that mean it can fire at a minus 1 if the model stood still?
That's been the case at least since the beginning of 8th, maybe even 7th. If a single model in a unit moves the entire unit is counted as moving.
Also the arquebus rules specifically say that if it moves it cant fire. No other rules override that.
Honestly, for most games I'm just going to ask my opponent to ignore that Holy Order FAQ. It's not an errata, it doesn't change the words. RAW, the holy orders and their surrounding text has exactly the same text as any other Warlord traits. If that FAQ sets a precedent, then they just broke how additional Warlord trait stratagems work in general. "Ah, yes Mr. Space Marine, your Lieutenant would count as your Warlord for the text of that trait. But you see, he isn't actually your Warlord so you can't be given that trait in the first place."
If they want to limit Mechanicus Locus to 1, that's fine. Most other similar traits are limited. If they want to limit to one Holy Order per army (or better per detachment), that's fine too. They just need to change the text. The trouble is, I don't think there's any other trait in the game that specifically requires it be taken on your Warlord exclusively.
And actually, Imperial Knights also got a new set of Warlord traits in the same book. They've got the same wording, but there's no FAQ on Exalted Court affecting those traits.
DarkHound wrote: Honestly, for most games I'm just going to ask my opponent to ignore that Holy Order FAQ. It's not an errata, it doesn't change the words. RAW, the holy orders and their surrounding text has exactly the same text as any other Warlord traits. If that FAQ sets a precedent, then they just broke how additional Warlord trait stratagems work in general. "Ah, yes Mr. Space Marine, your Lieutenant would count as your Warlord for the text of that trait. But you see, he isn't actually your Warlord so you can't be given that trait in the first place."
If they want to limit Mechanicus Locus to 1, that's fine. Most other similar traits are limited. If they want to limit to one Holy Order per army (or better per detachment), that's fine too. They just need to change the text. The trouble is, I don't think there's any other trait in the game that specifically requires it be taken on your Warlord exclusively.
And actually, Imperial Knights also got a new set of Warlord traits in the same book. They've got the same wording, but there's no FAQ on Exalted Court affecting those traits.
You're all blowing this way out of proportion.
You never, ever, ever should have expected to be able to take more than one.
Taking a Holy Order requires the model to be your Warlord.
If an Adeptus Mechanicus Character model (excluding named characters) is your Warlord, you can select a Warlord Trait from below for them instead of using the Warlord Traits table from Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus.
Mechanicus Locum:
Use this Stratagem before the battle after nominating your Warlord. Select one <Forge World> Character model from your army that does not have a Warlord Trait and determine one Warlord Trait for it; it is regarded as your Warlord for the purposes of that Warlord Trait. Each Warlord Trait in your army must be unique (if randomly generated, re-roll duplicate results).
Holy Order has a specific set of 'boxes' you have to tick, and that is "Is this model your Warlord?". If Yes--congrats, you can go to step two: "Is this model a named character?". If no--congrats, you can give them a Holy Order.
Servitors and our Techpriests since they have heavy weapons and dont ignore it...strangely... Everything else is non-infantry and heavy only affects infantry lol.
So yeah, Mars canticle is just +1Str now. Which is still pretty dang good.
So if were limited to 1 Holy trait, which is it the goto yathink? My initial thought was exploding 6's one (i still cant remember which is which), since that one feels the most impactful and isnt JUST the exploding 6's i'd want to use in a normal list. But thats just the obvious one, the others have extremely good uses too just not as "in general" (obviously the fall back and shoot for vehicles is strong, but if you arent Robot heavy you probably dont care)
Kanluwen wrote: Taking a Holy Order requires the model to be your Warlord.
If an Adeptus Mechanicus Character model (excluding named characters) is your Warlord, you can select a Warlord Trait from below for them instead of using the Warlord Traits table from Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus.
Mechanicus Locum:
Use this Stratagem before the battle after nominating your Warlord. Select one <Forge World> Character model from your army that does not have a Warlord Trait and determine one Warlord Trait for it; it is regarded as your Warlord for the purposes of that Warlord Trait. Each Warlord Trait in your army must be unique (if randomly generated, re-roll duplicate results).
Holy Order has a specific set of 'boxes' you have to tick, and that is "Is this model your Warlord?". If Yes--congrats, you can go to step two: "Is this model a named character?". If no--congrats, you can give them a Holy Order.
Explain to me how that's different than the base Warlord traits?
If an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS CHARACTER is your Warlord, they can generate a Warlord Trait from the following table instead of the one in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. You can either roll on the table below to randomly generate a Warlord Trait, or you can select the one that best suits your general’s battlefield imperatives.
Is the model your Warlord? No? Too bad, Mechanicus Locus doesn't make it your warlord so you can't take one.
There's even precedent for taking a different trait as an alternative to the base table:
If you wish, you can pick a Forge World Warlord Trait from the list below instead of from the Adeptus Mechanicus Warlord Traits, but only if your Warlord is from that forge world.
Under this FAQ, are you not allowed to take Forge World traits too?
Vineheart01 wrote: i mean all that did was grant heavy movement, which is built into the game now as a vehicle.
Oh. I missed that. Man, the second half of the Mars Canticle is so useless in this army. I guess it's only essential for Servitors? Lol...
The first half is the 'no penalty for moving and firing'...second is the bonus to strength.
And it's possible that we'll be seeing some stuff coming or that they address the interaction between Cognis Weapons and Advancing soon.
Darkhound: At this point, there's no answer that I think you'll accept. Simply put, if you planned on running a bunch of them? That's on you for suddenly having your plans cut out from under you. They're putting caps on special stuff like Captains, Lieutenants, and they had caps on things like Tau Commanders and Guard Command Squads.
Did you really expect to be able to stack up on these?
@DarkHound
It's doublethink. It has the exact same wording as other stratagems that confer WLTs. But this one is limited to one and only your Warlord, which conflicts with prior rulings.
@Vineheart01
I think I am sticking to Cawl's default. The 9" aura is very valuable. There is always a point in the game where you need to spread out to cover different sight lines.
That said, the Magos WLT is tempting since I run 3x Dakkabots.
I understand that they're making the ruling. That's fine for me personally. I wasn't planning on using more than one. It does mean you can't take one in allied detachments, which is only a mild inconvenience.
It just annoys me that they added this rule in the worst possible way. It would be a problem if we didn't already know not to read into the text as written. It would actually be better if it just said "No."
Archaopter is now legally skitarii.
Pteraxii Alpha also has talons.
Forgeworld canticle schenanigans are removed.
Can someone please explain this to me?
Q: Can the Mechanicus Locum Stratagem be used to give
characters other than your warlord one of the Holy Order
Warlord Traits?
A: No. The Character is only considered your Warlord for the
purposes of the Warlord Trait itself, not for what Warlord Traits
it has access to.
Also, when you now move only one model in a unit, the whole unit counts as moved. Would that mean our arquebus cant fire? Or would that mean it can fire at a minus 1 if the model stood still?
GW Giveth and GW Taketh away
Logic and consistent wording have nothing to do with it
Im more concerned with the loss of the canticle
Too much of admech was centered around a boring castle and nerfing that is fine but hitting the more interesting alternative lists is a bad thing for diversity
DarkHound wrote: I understand that they're making the ruling. That's fine for me personally. I wasn't planning on using more than one. It does mean you can't take one in allied detachments, which is only a mild inconvenience.
It just annoys me that they added this rule in the worst possible way. It would be a problem if we didn't already know not to read into the text as written. It would actually be better if it just said "No."
I'm gonna be honest, there's probably a lot of moving parts in the background right now. I'm about 99.999% sure we'll be one of the early codices(along with Orks, Drukhari, Sisters, and Death Guard) and there will be something that makes it clear why you can only do this for one unit. I wouldn't be shocked if, for example, we can only take one Dominus per Detachment going forward. I also would not be shocked if this was done to also set a precedent for Crusade--which has a specific Requisition which allows you to do a similar thing for granting Warlord Traits.
However it is worth noting that this does put us a bit more in line with things like Specialist Detachments or the Guard Tank Ace rules.
Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?
Kanluwen wrote: [I'm gonna be honest, there's probably a lot of moving parts in the background right now. I'm about 99.999% sure we'll be one of the early codices(along with Orks, Drukhari, Sisters, and Death Guard) and there will be something that makes it clear why you can only do this for one unit. I wouldn't be shocked if, for example, we can only take one Dominus per Detachment going forward. I also would not be shocked if this was done to also set a precedent for Crusade--which has a specific Requisition which allows you to do a similar thing for granting Warlord Traits.
However it is worth noting that this does put us a bit more in line with things like Specialist Detachments or the Guard Tank Ace rules.
I'm also getting the sense that we're up for a new codex soon. Still, I genuinely don't think the Holy Order traits are that powerful to require strict limits. They just seem nutty compared to our other ones because all our traits and relics suck hard.
Well every other army can do so.
We are also the only one to my knowledge that are restricted, again, to primary and its secondary forgeworld effects. And also only effecting models.
r_squared wrote: Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?
There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not
the order you apply those abilities makes a difference
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start
or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved
so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them
although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)
So what we have to pay a CP to use the Ordo traits on our warlord ? What's the point of this stratagem if only our Warlord can receive it ? I don't understand.
r_squared wrote: Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?
There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not
the order you apply those abilities makes a difference
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start
or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved
so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them
although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)
The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?
r_squared wrote: The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?
I do not believe that rules are timestamped like this.
U02dah4 wrote: The stratagem lets non WL models take base rulebook WL traits
These are all worth taking depending on your build
Monitor Malevolous
Prime Hermeticon
Necromechanic:
Chorister Technis:
Static Psalm (Mars)
Yeah re-reading both rules for the 50th time I finally understood, it's just that I didn't expect this to be their intent with the stratagem as it's so upside-down that it didn't look legit. Jeez GW and their wording.
Yeah it's nice mainly for Prime Hermeticon with some builds, but my main Trait used to be Monitor Malevolus before the nerf, now I'd go Necromechanic but the Ordos are just better generally so I'll stick with that.
r_squared wrote: Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?
There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not
the order you apply those abilities makes a difference
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start
or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved
so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them
although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)
The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?
The luicus cantical increases the moment the cantical is cantated the Aegis increases the moment the model is in aegis mode neither of these are relevant till you throw.
both of these normally happen a long time before shooting and at the point the player whose turn it is chooses the order until the turn changes then the other player chooses the order (yes some strats can change both instantly in that case order is chosen then). You can make this easier by waiting till you fire
lucius improve the invulnerable save of a model in affected units by 1 to a 4+ is no different to whilst this protocol is in effect you can add 1 to any armour and invul saving throws you make for the unit; its just GW doing inconsistent wording for the same thing
Daedalosus can't take Warlord traits from Mechanicus Locum though. It specifies <FORGE WORLD> <CHARACTER>, and he as no Forge World. He can take any base trait or a Holy Order if he's the Warlord though.
Kanluwen wrote: [I'm gonna be honest, there's probably a lot of moving parts in the background right now. I'm about 99.999% sure we'll be one of the early codices(along with Orks, Drukhari, Sisters, and Death Guard) and there will be something that makes it clear why you can only do this for one unit. I wouldn't be shocked if, for example, we can only take one Dominus per Detachment going forward. I also would not be shocked if this was done to also set a precedent for Crusade--which has a specific Requisition which allows you to do a similar thing for granting Warlord Traits.
However it is worth noting that this does put us a bit more in line with things like Specialist Detachments or the Guard Tank Ace rules.
I'm also getting the sense that we're up for a new codex soon. Still, I genuinely don't think the Holy Order traits are that powerful to require strict limits. They just seem nutty compared to our other ones because all our traits and relics suck hard.
I wildly disagree with you regarding the Holy Order traits.
They're one of the first Warlord Traits that the game has ever seen that grant a variable Aura. That alone is huuuuuuuge.
r_squared wrote: Am I wrong in thinking that the new Lucius canticle increasing the invulnerable save by +1 means that Kastelan robots in aegis protocol have an effective 2+ 3++?
Their invulnerable save increases to 4++ thanks to the canticle, and any roll of 3 you add 1 to because of aegis, becomes a 4 and therefore saves?
There are two simultaneous abilities both add 1 to the invul save but one is capped at 4+ and one is not
the order you apply those abilities makes a difference
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the
start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this
happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the
order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start
or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides
in what order the rules are resolved
so i think if your opponent is shooting them they will make it a 4++ but its up to them
although in rare circumstances such as if you charge and your opponent overwatch's you can make it a 3++ (more relevant for CC build)
The Lucius canticle increases the invulnerable save characteristic from the moment the canticle is canted. You only add 1 to the dice roll because of the aegis protocol later when making a save. As I understand it, there's no sequencing conflict?
The luicus cantical increases the moment the cantical is cantated the Aegis increases the moment the model is in aegis mode neither of these are relevant till you throw.
both of these normally happen a long time before shooting and at the point the player whose turn it is chooses the order until the turn changes then the other player chooses the order (yes some strats can change both instantly in that case order is chosen then). You can make this easier by waiting till you fire
lucius improve the invulnerable save of a model in affected units by 1 to a 4+ is no different to whilst this protocol is in effect you can add 1 to any armour and invul saving throws you make for the unit; its just GW doing inconsistent wording for the same thing
But they're not the same thing. The canticle increases the characteristic, and the protocol adds 1 to the number you roll. It's an important difference.
It happens elsewhere for example with Orks, Sparkly bits increases the BS characteristic by 1, and the freebootas klan culture adds +1 to the hit roll producing Morkanauts that hit on 3+
I don't understand why my opponent has a "choice" here? Is there a new rule about this in 9th?
Shouldn't be any need to imo, but it is more relevant for that thread.
Its the same as the Bladeguard vet stormshield issue, one ability increased the save the other adds to the roll. There's no order of operations issue. Even if that's all you considered, increases to datasheet stats happen before dice modifiers. Done
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm getting increasingly frustrated that I want so many fast attack choices but the new detachment system is gonna make me pay for like 2 outsiders and I dont even get to have one of them refunded!
Shouldn't be any need to imo, but it is more relevant for that thread.
Its the same as the Bladeguard vet stormshield issue, one ability increased the save the other adds to the roll. There's no order of operations issue. Even if that's all you considered, increases to datasheet stats happen before dice modifiers. Done
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm getting increasingly frustrated that I want so many fast attack choices but the new detachment system is gonna make me pay for like 2 outsiders and I dont even get to have one of them refunded!
Yes and if you check the arguments around that they went on for multi pages with half the players of one opinion and half another. The TO's i spoke to were dismissing the 2++ as "silly" and wouldnt be ruling that way and as you say theres no difference.
But YMDC is the place for that circular discussion not bogging down tactics threads.
As to FA not having that problem now dragoons are useless i want 3 units of raiders and thats it
Yeah i dont think its possible to field a non-custodes or greyknights army that doesnt feed into Bring It Down or Thin Their Ranks.
Either you have 5-7 vehicles, or a gakton of dudes.
Just determine which one is easier for your army to feed and go full ham on it, so it maxes out fairly quick but then the other doesnt give diddly.
Thats the Ork mentality right now, either tonsof vehicles, or only a couple. Because we will be giving max Bring It Down points lol and Admech arent really that different in terms of number of vehicles they field on average.
2 are to charge the enemys lines t1 and delay them a turn while. Sniping a character and harrying a screen i want as many models on that line as i can
The little squad is useing that speed to grab an objective i might not otherwise be able to reach T1 but i dont want to make the same points committment to that role
Hmmm in my opinion cawl is a monster, i want this mars song, and with cawl i normaly get it every round. in my doubt dakka bots are not worth theyre points
you use the 9 raiders simply to charge?
i play them 2x 5 to screen the entire field, with 6+ this would not possible, may i got a wrong thinking?
Pretty much they get to the enemy deployment zone T1 kill atleastr a character then charge. And can do a passable amount to basic screens. Then your op can fall back and shoot them meaning my sisters have time to cover the objectives or have their movement blocked and shoot over them. While if they get counter charged one unit gets to run to safety. Killing a key buffing character can be strong and a one turn delay on your opponent reaching objectives can win a game.
If i go second i move them onto objectives pregame and see what my opponent does
Im a board control player im not so much trying to screen as prevent my opponent leaving their DZ
T2/3 i have corpuscarii and the big vanguard reserving on one flank with daedalosus and smash cannonness with two celestians on the other with seraphim hitting the middle of their lines/ objectives as appropriate
Im not sure it is the most optimised mars build for shooting. But I dont think it will fall flat on its face.
We all have too few 9th games to be certain and the meta which is in flux right now will play a huge role.
Your list has good mission denial but my primary concern in all mars castle lists this one included is its ability to play the mission particularly on the 6 objective missions.
I can see how you grab 4 T1 but how will you hold them it looks like T2 your key units are in a 6" circle round cawl.
What secondarys will you go for - a kill one easily but 2 and 3 seem a lot harder to acheive. You dont have the psykers or the infantry and trying to grab 4 quarters just makes it harder to complete your primaries
U02dah4 wrote: Not factoring pistol which improves things VS T4
2.37 MW + 10.66 saves a 3rd of which are AP1 assuming no buffs
Should be looking at about 6W on T4 3++ but it is high variance and i have the arquebusses and sometimes the little raider squad for redundancy
That covers most factions barring knights custodes and monster mash
It's funny how everyone forgets the entire squad of raiders gets MW on 6s + improved AP
Basically raiders have replaced my entire ground body-count for screening, harassing, objective purposes. 3 x 5 I'm planning with a side order of Pteraxii for objective actions and a couple of arquebus ranger squads in the backfield objectives for further pinning and threat harassment.
At 1500 pts I do feel a bit anti-tank vulnerable though, its difficult to cover everything with that level of points imo. I'm planning 3 x auto balistarii and 3 x las balistarii I think. I was going heavy on Breachers but they're too slow to get to and hold objectives and are a HUGE points sink unless you invest heavily in buffing them. So my Outrider detachment is still going to be expansionist -> rugged explorers for the no assault advance penalty and -1ap on charge. But I'm switching my Patrol to a Data Hoard -> Servo-focused auguries so that my balistarii and potentially a Stratoraptor get Cawl-rerolls on the move at half range.
Which leads me into a quandry I have: Stratoraptor or Distintigrator? They're amazingly and absurdly both about the same points, both just as durable and buffable and have comparable firepower as well, distintigrator edges it on firepower i think but loses out on mobility and its main weapons dont benefit from servo focussed auguries. But servo focussed auguries gives me an unflappable flying platform that can easily get within half range to get full re-rolls on its lascannons and stubbers and almost never tied in combat. The belleros on a disintegrator has the non los benefit, but if needed the stratoraptor can find its own los at no penalty and still gets it's re-rolls but can never hide out of LoS. So it feels like a tough choice to me: supremely mobile and independent HPB and Lascannons vs static Belleros and disruptor missles.
@Hesselhof
Building a list that does not give up Bring it Down with AdMech is as impossible as making a list that does not give up Titan Slayers for Knights or Abhor the Witch for 1KSons.
In my experience, if you cannot escape giving up VPs, you should double down on that. I have 34 VP worth of targets, but they cap out at 15.
Grators are very expensive. I would like to run two instead of the Crawlers, but I cannot find 70 points. As it stands, Crawlers and Dakkabots just have so much more value at their points. One option is to cut the Enginseer to replace one Crawler with a Grator, but this weakens the durability of the other Grator and the output of the Dakkabots.
well you could do a list that just spams Hoplites, Infiltrators, Cavalry, and/or Pterraxi and relegate your big-damage shooting to destroyers. That would have 0 vehicles.
...it would also have a metric gakton of models and feed into the Thin Their Ranks anyway lol
You arent going to optimize your lists so well that no secondary sounds juicy for your opponent unless you bring a really wonky list that probably isnt that strong in the first place.
I dont think anybody has the models of those units to do a full 2k list with them though lol. Would have to probably include priests of both variants lol ...i say that and running the numbers im short 250pts of nonvehicle models lol...unless i wanna bring a patrol purely to bring more troops
If you are going to deny them points, you would just run <15 VPs worth of everything. But that would make us less able to win the game. Penny wise, pound foolish.
Vineheart01 wrote: well you could do a list that just spams Hoplites, Infiltrators, Cavalry, and/or Pterraxi and relegate your big-damage shooting to destroyers.
That would have 0 vehicles.
...it would also have a metric gakton of models and feed into the Thin Their Ranks anyway lol
You arent going to optimize your lists so well that no secondary sounds juicy for your opponent unless you bring a really wonky list that probably isnt that strong in the first place.
I dont think anybody has the models of those units to do a full 2k list with them though lol. Would have to probably include priests of both variants lol ...i say that and running the numbers im short 250pts of nonvehicle models lol...unless i wanna bring a patrol purely to bring more troops
Their are ways round it though 0 vehicles is not a requirement - you could take 3-4 vehicles and limit their VP or 5-6 lowW vehicles.
As to thin their ranks its self limiting - i look at my sisters/ Admech list - thats looking at 119 models - maximum 11 vp and im all in infantry and cavalry the fact that kills beyond even 10s are wasted means often even that 11 would become 9 or 10.
Heavy Support - 800 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 1995 points 11 CP
Alas, I think it sacrifices too much. I want two assault teams of 2x5 Vanguard and 10 Hoplites in 2 Boats.
Disintegrators should be 130 points. It is annoying that they did not zero out their weapon cost.
Assuming the points are intended, whats your take on Disintegrator vs Stratoraptor? Same points. I'm not sure non-LoS firing is all that necessary any more, the game looks to have moved hard towards a GTFO of your deployment and do stuff. Taking things that fly and move fast and the fact the board sizes are small, its going to be very difficult to hide anything from an army that moves around.
The other consideration if the points are wrong is that would make a Fusilave cheaper than an Onager..I guess that's probably right. It also boggles my mind that a Transvector is actually more expensive than a Dunerider and its not a dedicated transport. I'd say the higher mobility and the increased capacity balanced themselves out, they should be about the same points imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, do you find Vanguard actually do anything? I mean if it's purely for obsec fair enough, but in my experience 5 Rangers does more than 10 Vanguard if we're taking them to shoot stuff.
Wow Suzuteo, that list looks pretty bonkers. I think that would be a great way for me to not find anyone to play at my FLGS, hahaha. Great list comp, though, I gotta say I'm a fan.
Wow surprisingly Radium Carbines in theory should be twice as effective as Galvanic Carbines against intercessors. Though my calculator doesn't account for the -1ap on wound of 6. Still, vanguard always feel like they do nothing for me lol.
I am super interested in how that list plays out. It looks like a really strong castle list in 8th, but I don't think that's very good in the GT missions in 9th. My experience so far has led me to take more ObSec and more short-range/melee. I feel like that list is going to have a really hard time with objectives in a lot of situations, particularly against fast melee armies. You can't really afford to castle with the Hoplites to protect your guns. I think you'll always shoot your enemies to ribbons, but if you're not careful you'll fall behind on points.
I'm also worried about not bringing a Datasmith for the robots. You can only activate Protector Protocol through Binaric Override, but then they can never be switched again so can't move. If there's enough LoS blocking terrain, that'll be a huge liability.
Octovol wrote: Wow surprisingly Radium Carbines in theory should be twice as effective as Galvanic Carbines against intercessors. Though my calculator doesn't account for the -1ap on wound of 6. Still, vanguard always feel like they do nothing for me lol.
Dude, same! Even against orks I've killed more with galvanic rifles than radium carbines. I only like carbines against vehicles and guard equivalents haha.
Playing them with the Incisive Arsenal (or whatever it's called) trait that gives +1 AP for Radium weaponry would surprise you. AP makes a big difference, I'm planning my 1000 list around 6x5 Vanguards and run the calculations with various situations and was surprised.
5 Vanguards vs MEQ:
- Barebones: 1,66w
- Reroll 1s to Hit: 1,8w
- AP-1: 2,5w
- AP-1 and Reroll 1s to Hit: 2,91w
- AP-2 and Reroll 1s to Hit: 3,88w (achieved by being within half-range with the Artisan trait that gives +1AP at half-range) so 11,59 pts/w inflicted
Not too bad for 45 pts. I assume I'll reroll 1s most of the time with the Dominus or the Canticle, but the AP-1 or AP-2 is where the true damage lies. And that's against resilient MEQ, I didn't run the maths against Guards or something but it should shred them.
I did the same maths while including 1 Plasma Caliver and while the numbers are a bit higher, the efficiency goes from 11,59 pts/w to 13,31pts/w in optimal conditions (without Overcharging).
Coupled with Shroudpsalm and the Primary of the Radioactive Forge-World that gives -1S on incoming shots from 12" away you could run a horde of them footslogging and have a great number of shots on fairly resilient bodies for their cost on 1st turn. If I had the money I'd buy enough Duneriders to transport them all but it's not the case yet, and even then I can't play games due to lockdown yet.
I take Vanguard for the -1T aura. It really helps Hoplites when they have to fight non-vehicles. Otherwise, for shooting, I would take Rangers. But generally speaking, I do not expect my Skitarii to be deadly with their guns.
I am not a big fan of the Stratoraptor or Grators at their current points cost. That said, I prefer Grators because I can keep them inside the castle.
I actually don't think the list I just posted is very good in 9E. The list before that is more serious.
Yeah, that looks a lot better. Have you gotten any games with it?
Any reason you took an Enginseer over a Datasmith? The Datasmith can be your Warlord for Magos, despite not being an HQ choice. Sure it's slightly more expensive, but you can shave a couple Hoplites. I've never played with Kastelans, I just imagine a lot of their value comes from changing their models proactively.
Hoplites have a minimum size of 10, so he couldn’t just shave a couple to free points, even if the data smith was worth it.
In 8th I regularly skipped the datasmith (except the one game after engine war came out and I was able to spam HOWTs) and just used binharic override you get into protector doctrine. Now that games are only 5 turns, I don’t see that many opportunities to switch protocols personally, but I haven’t got to play 9th yet, so I could be wrong.
Anyone got any play with the bomber? Trying to see if it’s worth squeezing one in my list
Only played two games with it, but I loved it. First game was MSU Chaos marines (Creations of Bile) and the bombs did work. My dice were admittedly hot, but I was typically able to kill to or three marines in the movement phase, and then finish off the leftovers in my shooting phase with the guns. The strat that slows down an enemy unit worked well on his possessed too.
Second game was a mix of Primaris and Scouts. I tended to bomb the scouts because the bombs aren't great (imo) against 2 wound targets, and it did fairly well, although it's fragile and didn't last long the second game.
I really like it, but it's probably more situational than anything.
I played my first game of 9th with admech, it was a friendly match play game vs two of my friends who were playing crons and harlequins. Weird combo eh?
I figured out very quickly just how hard it can be to score the primary if you play cagey. I'm maxing out my troops, 2 units of 3 grav destroyers with flamers, 2 units of 3 breachers, 1 unit of vanguard, 1 unit of rangers.
I'm also maxing my fast attack and elites with the quickest units I have access to, dragoons, even rust stalkers. Anything that can get to an objective quickly and either clear it or hold it.
My lists are looking very different from 8th. Word to the wise, don't try domination. It's harder than it looks.
Lists that spam robots and kataphrons will probably do well with attrition, but otherwise I'm thinking engage on all fronts is the easiest points you can get without relying on dice rolls or your opponents gaking up.
@ultimentra
My friends have been testing on Tabletop Simulator. I have watched a few of their games. 9E is about holding objectives. If you avoid getting stuck in, you will lose.
There is a reason why my list has 4 Boats in it, and they are loaded with Hoplites and Vanguard. The ability to move 12"+D6 every turn while shooting S5 weapons is HUGE. They also stick around as LOS blockers and can plink at enemies too. Hoplites are needed to kill vehicles, which a lot of armies are bringing to get their troops to objectives too. With Vanguard, their profile with Acquisition is amazing.
The Drills look better on paper, but they are underwhelming in practice. They are slower, and the Flamers don't have the range to threaten enemies. I would only use them if you are playing an aggressive assault list.
I'm finding it pretty rare to score 15 points on primary objectives, or even reach 45 at all. A lot of games are going to go 40-40 or 40-35 for normal Take and Hold primaries. Domination primaries have matches go 25-25 or 30-20.
I think I've played enough to have an idea on secondaries, and they're pretty narrow for AdMech. The biggest discrepancy within the faction is shooting castles will take Raise the Banners and an aggressive lists will take Deploy Scramblers/Repair Teleport Homer. I think the kill missions (Bring It Down, Thin Their Ranks, Titan Hunter, Abhor the Witch) are going to be reliable takes for all armies. I think most of the mission-specific secondaries are good to play for, but you have to be very cognizant of your opponent's list. If you are going to butt heads with your opponent on the same objective, it can be better to take a different objective and play around your opponent.
Engage on All Fronts is a tricky one. I haven't seen it score more than 12. Mind, 12 point is actually decent as it's exceptionally hard to max any scores, but it's more typically going to score 10 or 8. The trouble is that you spread your army very thin to get 3 points. Worse, getting a unit in 3 board quarters can be hard if it's a close game and the armies are ground down to only a few squads; you don't want your mission to be harder to score when you need it the most.
Like you've said, Domination is a trap. You typically only hold more for one turn. Since it scores at the end of your turn, some ObSec spam horde like carpet Guard might be able to do something with it.
Investigate Sites seems reasonable until you play it. In reality, enemies can move within 6" of the center, which blocks you from starting the action in your movement phase. You can't clear them until it's too late to start. I think horde armies can actually score that reliably by making a huge screen, but I wouldn't take it as AdMech.
I also wouldn't take Raise the Banners High with less than 6 objectives in the mission, unless you're really comfortable only scoring 10 with it. Like I said, castle lists may find it to be a reliable third pick with the outside chance of getting more. It runs into the same problem as Domination where you simply won't be holding more.
Grind Them Down/Attrition is a tricky one too. There are match-ups that I could see it being great, but it encourages you to play conservatively with your squads and prevents you from wringing out all the value from them. Often penny wise and pound foolish.
My go-to secondaries have been Linebreaker and Deploy Scramblers from the GT pack. I try to combine Linebreaker with mission-specific secondaries that encourage taking the opponent's deployment zone objective. I haven't taken the plunge yet, but my experience scoring Linebreaker and Scramblers together has shown me you can actually score Repair Teleport Homer reliably in a lot of cases.
@darkhoumd admech have the tools to do all secondarys barring psychic its probably your build that's limiting you rather than the faction- its true you need to consider missiond when building and the Mars castle isn't great
Give it a try then and see. I'm not sure a balanced list is the way to go for maximum efficiency
I think that cawl is a big investment and so if your using cawl you really want a lot more shooting drop the priests and transports for more HS options and shoot your opponent off the board and hope to pick up late game points
Alternatively ditch cawl and dakkabots for more raiders vanguard corpuscarii hoplites and play board control
I think I agree. Given you can't really avoid giving up points for certain secondaries, you also can't really try to cover all your bases any more. A balanced list is an unfocused list, so to speak.
Its a tricky balance, you need to play the missions but you also need to survive lol.
I'm not entirely sure my planned list is much better though tbhlol
Expansionist - Rugged Outrider
Daedalossus
3 x 5 Raiders
1 x 10 Sterylizors (or 2 x 5, not decided)
Data-hoard - Trans node Patrol
Dominus - Learnings of Genetor
3 x 4 Breachers
1 x 4 Auto Balistarii
2 x Icarus Onager + Stubber
1490pts
My group only plays up to 1500 but if I needed to go to 2k I'd probably add another squad of 1 x 4 Balistarii, another Icarus Onager and make my breachers 3 x 5
Relying on stuff being near a buff bot feels like a challenge without having loads of characters, i'd rather have units that can function by themselves but improve with buffs.
Skorpius Disintegrator, Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber 150
Skorpius Disintegrator, Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber 150
Skorpius Disintegrator, Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber 150
Archaeopter Fusilave, 4x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Command Uplink 130
Archaeopter Fusilave, 4x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Command Uplink 130
I still like distintegrators, they just feel like a lot of points at the moment and I'm not sure if they feel worth it any more. What are you do with those priests now? Too big to fit in a transport (not that you have any) but surely they're just gonna get shot to pieces without doing anything at all? I still think Cawl is a trap in 9th now. If you love the model fine, but the whole concept is to keep everything stationary, or moving slowly now and huddled around Cawl for bonuses, that restricts you as to how you can spread sout, which you're gonna need to do. So the more stuff you move away from Cawl, the less his 200pts are worth having. I'm still not sure h'es worth it with what you have either, disintegrators and balistarii take up a lot of space, so that's a big target to have huddled around him.
Just saw it online and wondered what folks thought of it. I haven’t had many games but I do like the utility of the dogs
I'm still intrigued by everyone's Fusilave inclusion. Are they a distraction Carnifex? I mean I know they're only a few more points than an Onager, but they feel like they'd only be any good vs hordes for a single run then get blown out of the sky lol
I don’t think you need to have everything in Cawl’s aura for it to be worth fielding him. There’s significant value in just the ability to adjust canticles and have +1 str to heavy weapons every turn.
U02dah4 wrote: @darkhoumd admech have the tools to do all secondarys barring psychic its probably your build that's limiting you rather than the faction- its true you need to consider missiond when building and the Mars castle isn't great
Uh, mind being more specific? Maybe you could add to a discussion. I'd really love to hear about your games where you score Investigate Sites reliably, or spread out to score Engage on All Fronts. What build were you running, and who were you up against? I've mostly played and watched GT missions.
I've posted my lists: a footslogging Vanguard with Dunecrawlers and a lance of Warglaives. Like I said, I've been trying to play for Linebreaker and usually score 12 or 15 for it. My opponents have been Ultramarines Aggressors/Eradicators, an ork horde, ork Speed Freakz, and mechanized Imperial Guard. My army is fast, so I've had better match-ups against slower armies like the ork horde and Ultramarines where I got to dictate the engagements. I lost against the Speed Freakz, who were fast enough to attack my weak objectives and split my army up.
The common secondaries I've seen actually scored at 10 or more points have been Bring It Down, Thin Their Ranks, Engage on All Fronts, Linebreaker, and Deploy Scramblers. I've seen Domination, Investigate Sites, While We Stand, and Grind Them Down taken and scored really poorly; they're all too easy for your opponent to mess with and become a liability. I don't think I'll ever see Cut Off The Head, Assassinate, or Mental Interrogation.
It's important to talk about the mission objectives you can actually score so you build your list focused toward them. Has anybody else had different experiences with their objectives?
Mariongodspeed wrote: I don’t think you need to have everything in Cawl’s aura for it to be worth fielding him. There’s significant value in just the ability to adjust canticles and have +1 str to heavy weapons every turn.
Adjusting canticles is my favourite bit about him! It feels like THAT should be his big draw, not some re-roll aura. Re-rolls have become way too abundant imo, they're all over the place. Canticles would need to be more impactful but having the right canticle at the right time should be why you take Cawl. Like Canticles feel like they should be as effective as Guard Orders. Oh and his gun should disintegrate stuff left and right like it was nothing lol. I'd love for our HQ choices to be garbage in combat but actually have guns that do something and for them all to have a 2+ BS. That gives them flavour, purpose and a reason for your opponent to care about them other than for VPs. If we're supposed to be a shooty army like Tau, their commanders get the job done. Our Dominus does nothing. Cawl does nothing. Actively.
Anyway, the Fusilave feels like it would be huge against Orks, Tyranids, Guard, anything with large units. Thats if any of those armies actually still take large units given the Blast penalty now. But if your Ork opponent has 20 boyz or grots in a unit and you fly that Fusilave over them. that's 20 4+ MW rolls. Against 5 Intercessors....you might kill 1 or two of them if you're lucky lol. The seismic bomb strat could be nice though, Stops your opponent getting a unit on an objective or getting in your face as easy. Which now I think about it does seem pretty useful for 130pts.
U02dah4 wrote: @darkhoumd admech have the tools to do all secondarys barring psychic its probably your build that's limiting you rather than the faction- its true you need to consider missiond when building and the Mars castle isn't great
Uh, mind being more specific? Maybe you could add to a discussion. I'd really love to hear about your games where you score Investigate Sites reliably, or spread out to score Engage on All Fronts. What build were you running, and who were you up against? I've mostly played and watched GT missions.
I've posted my lists: a footslogging Vanguard with Dunecrawlers and a lance of Warglaives. Like I said, I've been trying to play for Linebreaker and usually score 12 or 15 for it. My opponents have been Ultramarines Aggressors/Eradicators, an ork horde, ork Speed Freakz, and mechanized Imperial Guard. My army is fast, so I've had better match-ups against slower armies like the ork horde and Ultramarines where I got to dictate the engagements. I lost against the Speed Freakz, who were fast enough to attack my weak objectives and split my army up.
The common secondaries I've seen actually scored at 10 or more points have been Bring It Down, Thin Their Ranks, Engage on All Fronts, Linebreaker, and Deploy Scramblers. I've seen Domination, Investigate Sites, While We Stand, and Grind Them Down taken and scored really poorly; they're all too easy for your opponent to mess with and become a liability. I don't think I'll ever see Cut Off The Head, Assassinate, or Mental Interrogation.
It's important to talk about the mission objectives you can actually score so you build your list focused toward them. Has anybody else had different experiences with their objectives?
Truth is I haven't had many games as my too local clubs are closed and I've mostly played SoB (my lock down project) if you go back in the thread you'll find my first draft of the admech sob soup list I'm running at a team tournament in 6 weeks
Or the IK thread for my admech IK list. But both are very different mission wise
I'm also still a big fan of Disintegrators. It's just that they're really hard to fit into a list. I am also really aware of how crowded my deployment gets with so many vehicles.
I don't like Siegler's list. It seems very killy, but I have no idea how he is going to get those Corpuscarii into range to actually do any damage.
Disintegrators got a buff with their strat that gives +1 to Hit if they shoot all guns at the same target, but I don't know if that makes it worthwhile or no, given the new costs. Also, it's only once a turn.
Corpuscarii look really lethal when building around them. I ran the maths and they're obscene when you use the AP-2 strat on them.
10 Corpuscarii VS MEQ:
- Barebones: 6,66w
- AP-2: 13,33w
10 Corpuscarii VS MEQ and supported by a Dominus, without and with the +1AP at half-range
- RR1 + AP-2: 15,55w
- RR1 + AP-3 (half-range): 19,44w
A simple squad of 10 shooting all by themselves with the AP-2 strat and a reroll 1s Canticle (or aura) kills almost 8 Intercessors in a single shooting phase. Really great against T4 and below.
Aaranis wrote: Disintegrators got a buff with their strat that gives +1 to Hit if they shoot all guns at the same target, but I don't know if that makes it worthwhile or no, given the new costs. Also, it's only once a turn.
Corpuscarii look really lethal when building around them. I ran the maths and they're obscene when you use the AP-2 strat on them.
10 Corpuscarii VS MEQ:
- Barebones: 6,66w
- AP-2: 13,33w
10 Corpuscarii VS MEQ and supported by a Dominus, without and with the +1AP at half-range
- RR1 + AP-2: 15,55w
- RR1 + AP-3 (half-range): 19,44w
A simple squad of 10 shooting all by themselves with the AP-2 strat and a reroll 1s Canticle (or aura) kills almost 8 Intercessors in a single shooting phase. Really great against T4 and below.
In practice, that stratagem is nice, but not much better than a second Doctrina. You actually often want to split fire.
Corpuscarii are definitely great against Marines. But you're right. You have to support them. Running them like Siegler proposes is paying 14ppw to give your opponent's some target practice. You need to put them in reserve or bring transports.
Corpuscarii definitely have really nasty shooting, especially in a Lucius army with Deepstrike and Invulnerable save support. The important caveat is the more you shoot, the harder it'll be to make the subsequent charge, and charging is the name of the game in 9th. You'd need to take them in a situation where you want more anti-infantry shooting, but also have space to take other dedicated assault units (and also have some reserves/teleports/transports available).
Siegler is a really good player, but I don't think that list is going to pan out in 9th unless he's figured out some very clutch tactical tricks. I think his late 8th lists with Fulgerites and Drills are better.
The +1 to hit strat seems redundant to me. The grator has the reach to not really need to flank, so he can just sit near the reroll aura and Daedalosous.
Theres a narrow window where the strat +1 wouldnt conflict with Dr.D's. We havnt lost the use of him far as im aware of.
Aaranis wrote: Disintegrators got a buff with their strat that gives +1 to Hit if they shoot all guns at the same target, but I don't know if that makes it worthwhile or no, given the new costs. Also, it's only once a turn.
Corpuscarii look really lethal when building around them. I ran the maths and they're obscene when you use the AP-2 strat on them.
10 Corpuscarii VS MEQ:
- Barebones: 6,66w
- AP-2: 13,33w
10 Corpuscarii VS MEQ and supported by a Dominus, without and with the +1AP at half-range
- RR1 + AP-2: 15,55w
- RR1 + AP-3 (half-range): 19,44w
A simple squad of 10 shooting all by themselves with the AP-2 strat and a reroll 1s Canticle (or aura) kills almost 8 Intercessors in a single shooting phase. Really great against T4 and below.
In practice, that stratagem is nice, but not much better than a second Doctrina. You actually often want to split fire.
Corpuscarii are definitely great against Marines. But you're right. You have to support them. Running them like Siegler proposes is paying 14ppw to give your opponent's some target practice. You need to put them in reserve or bring transports.
from Seigler on AoW reddit
"Yeah, so in the list I want to run eventually, I drop down to 10 corpuscarii, put Daedalosus in a patrol and grab a 4 man serberys raiders unit and a 3rd fusilave. But this list is also quite strong as well!"
What am I missing here? This list seems very, very good at killing Marines; Corpuscarii and Bombers both wreck T4 elites. But it looks terrible at controlling objectives. Does he really expect those Raiders and foot-slogging Corpuscarii to last the entire match?
Also, I am thinking of buying one unit of 5x Raiders, just to deny turn one alpha charges. But man that retail price ridiculous. And for the points, I can bring 8x Plasma Calivers.
neutronager 135+26 disintegrator 150+39
