Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When everything is said and done, I think we actually got out of this pretty unscathed. Some armies just got totally shellacked. Especially for characters and vehicles.

Someone on Reddit compiled all of the point changes into a spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10AOUKh3vqohPqbhOG802rPmYYKuTziextVhSIm_On6w/edit#gid=0

WINNERS
Auto/Las Ballistarii at 65/75 and Icarus Crawlers at 115. Wow. Bring 5 of the former and 3 of latter in every list.

Vanguard at 9 makes them a winner by comparison because Rangers are also at 9; Plasma Vanguard cost is unchanged as well. Also very surprised about Breachers at 35 and Hoplites at 10.

SO-SO
Plasma Destroyers at 55. Still waiting word on if they instantly meltdown, but they are still viable.

Corpsucarii at 14 are looking good pointswise, but they are essentially replacing Infiltrators as DS bombs.

Dunerider at 100 seems shocking, but they are now average compared to other lists, especially once you look at our options for strike packages, especially Plasma Vanguard and Hoplites. Drills at 130 (with flamers instead of stormbolters) are also good alternatives to Duneriders now.

Robots at 125 is still reasonable.

Bomber at 130 is still looking useful.

LOSERS
Now that I think about it, Grators at 150 is pretty overpriced. They were ridiculously OP in 8E, but not 150 points OP. That said, it is possible that they misprinted and Belleros is 0 and Ferrumite is 5.

Fulgurites at 17 is way too expensive, given they have to be taken in 6+ units to remain effective; Hoplites are just strictly better now.

Dragoons at 70. LOL. Wow, way to kick em while they're down.

Gunship and Transport are just comically overpriced.

I'm starting to look into Ruststalkers, given that 14ppm isn't terrible for 2 wounds in this edition, and we need units to actually push enemies off objectives. My Infiltrators used to do the job, but that price hike is hard for me to justify. The math seems to bear out that Razor+Chord is equal to or better than Blades against most targets, and is especially better against Primaris. Depending on your Dogma/Relics/Traits/Canticle buffs, a squad of 5 kills about 2.5-3 Primaris a round. And I do think you want to run them in 5s to maximize the number of Princeps.

Since I'm dropping Infiltrators, I won't need Mars for Wrath (and I can't get the canticle because my Knight has to be the Warlord). Hell, I think I'll drop Daedalosus too. He can't take an Engine War trait, and his biggest benefit was Wrath on 5+. I'll just run a Dominus with Artisan instead.

I already run a big ball of Vanguard around a Magos Manipulus up the mid field. That speed boost is significant for the Ruststalkers, bringing them up to ~14" advance and a charge threat range of ~20". I'm going to run an Expansionist custom Forgeworld that ignores assault+advance penalties. I definitely didn't expect to end up with that combination.

My Patrol detachment ends up looking like this:

I always liked the way ruststalkers looked, so Im not mad at the idea of them becoming useful. I'm really curious to see how they do, please share your experiences with them in 9th DarkHound!

 Gremore wrote:
I always liked the way ruststalkers looked, so Im not mad at the idea of them becoming useful. I'm really curious to see how they do, please share your experiences with them in 9th DarkHound!

If you take them in a detachment with rugged explorers having them at ap -1 for all those attacks is as good as the new assault intercessors. With the 6s being mortal they only lose toughness and save and gain an invul for a fraction of the price.

Here's my first list for 9E using the new points:

One thing I like about 9E is that it really forces you to think about what is important.

For the firebase, I actually initially wanted to keep the 3x Grators, but 150 points really crowds out too much of my list (still think it's a mistake and they intended 130), so I decided to focus on the big winners for my firebase: 5x Auto Ballistarii and 3x Icarus Crawlers.

In terms of HQ, I went with Cawl and a Artisan Enginseer. The former for the rerolls to improve the consistency of Icarus Crawlers against ground units. The latter to improve their AP against tougher targets; an extra AP results in much better math than an extra hit on a natural 6. The ability to fallback and shoot like old school Fly is also a big deal.

As for the objective units, I dropped my Fulgurites for Hoplites, which are clearly better. They are loaded into two Flamer Drills, which will push up in front of my my Boats. In rare instances, I will Deep Strike them, but the smaller maps make vehicles movement much more impactful.

We have a little beer & pretzels tourney planned for next month at 1000 pts to have fun and try out this new edition. Considering how interesting Vanguards have become compared to Rangers I'm thinking trying the new custom FW traits to have the -1 AP on Radium weapons and use a lot of them in MSU. Ideally I'd have loved the Irradiation rule at 3" + -1AP but we can't do that sadly. For a Warlord trait I'm thinking the one that gives +1 shot on 6 to hit for them, considering they'll have a lot of shots. Still have to calculate/throw the dice to see if it gives an honorable boost or not. The -1 AP on half-range is nice too but I don't think being 9" away is going to be recurrent.

Haven't had a look at the secondaries neither, but I don't know if we'll use the GT rulepack or not, and if it has different secondaries.

Another interesting thought: Peltasts are actually decent now. They still cost the same as Vanguard, but the Mars Canticle boosts their Hammershot to S5 AP-2 D1 without any move and shoot penalty.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Another interesting thought: Peltasts are actually decent now. They still cost the same as Vanguard, but the Mars Canticle boosts their Hammershot to S5 AP-2 D1 without any move and shoot penalty.

Interesting... I still have a lot of Tau firewarrior breacher weapons, might need to replace some skitarii

Edit: Although they still dont benefit from most buffs, so Ill have to wait until the forgeworld version drops

So is anyone else tempted to run a few torsion cannons now that they're just 10 points each? I'm assuming the new primaris bikes will flood the tables so high ap and always d6 should be decent, no? Especially considering the range isn't as much of an issue anymore..

PiñaColada wrote:
So is anyone else tempted to run a few torsion cannons now that they're just 10 points each? I'm assuming the new primaris bikes will flood the tables so high ap and always d6 should be decent, no? Especially considering the range isn't as much of an issue anymore..

Its definitely an option now.
I did some maths ( it was like 4 with torsion vs 5 with arc or something to have the same points)

Arc was generally better, except T7 vehicles without invulns. The difference wasnt very high though, and losing on a body might not be worth, they also have less range.
On some niche situations they might be worth, but not against bikes. You do 0.97 dmg per torsion cannon to a primaris bike and 0.89 with the arc rifle.

Competetively I wouldnt use them, however you can sprinkle one or two per squad if you so desire and not waste tons of points.

Yeah, that was my gut feeling. Not bad enough to shoot yourself in the foot anymore but not really worth it either per se. I guess if nidzilla lists become the norm (for some reason) then they might find a place in more lists..

What about hydraulic claws? they cost the same as arc claws now.
Trading -1 to hit for potentially +2 to wound and d3 dmg sounds nice except against anything that is a horde.

I don't know, this weapon has always been absurd. Hitting on 5+ ? S10 but AP-1 ? Is it made of radioactive butter ? I think the Arc Claw is still the better option.

Yeah, I'm not tempted to self impose a -1 to hit when you're starting on 4+. Unless everything in your meta is already -1 to hit in melee for some reason.

its more that AP1 than the hitting on 5s thing.

Its along the lines of the Wraiths with axes/shields, i dont understand why a weapon confers -1 if it isnt AP-FU (common term in my area for high ap) - no amount of strength bonus is a good trade unless it also has an AP worth mentioning.

I'd take hitting on 5s if it was a lethal attack that pretty much guarantees death if i can even hit iwith it. AP1 means a lot will just plink off armor anyway, despite the high strength.

PiñaColada wrote:
Yeah, I'm not tempted to self impose a -1 to hit when you're starting on 4+. Unless everything in your meta is already -1 to hit in melee for some reason.

In a primaris meta I will use the hydraulic claws, we have enough dakka in skitarii and sicarians.

The problem is that -1 to hit is only really worth it if they have a powerfist statline, but those cost 10 points. Would you really spend 10 points per melee weapon on breachers?

The thing about Hydraulics is - we have means to reroll to hits in combat (1 or failed) but no, absolutely no way to reroll wounds (outside of Ryza at least). I've been running Hydraulics with Prime Hermeticon and they do work. Against Primaris, against monsters, against any vehicles - as they might hit on 5s but they have basically +1 to wound in comparison to Arc, and always have d3 damage.

On a side note - I'm making a closer look at Torsions now, to mix them with the Arcs in my 5 models MSU (1 or 2 Torsions per unit). At 10 points and with rerolls/noospheric they aren't looking that bad on paper. We want our obsec to be pushed mid anyway to get/deny points so the range isn't the issue either. At the same time, we might want to have D6 damage against everything and S8 on top.

Haha yeah whoever designed the AdMech melee weapons like that were just phoning it in. Belisarius Cawl's Arc Scourge is such an odd weapon profile, haha. Now that I'm looking at Cawl and his points, I just don't understand. A Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor with the Chapter Master upgrade looks like such a steal in comparison. I guess it's probably worth 100 points just to be able to manipulate canticles now that there is the Mars canticle powerhouse and Shroudpsalm may be really good in 9th.

Anyone found if the points for the transuranic arquebus are up somewhere ?

 Aaranis wrote:
Anyone found if the points for the transuranic arquebus are up somewhere ?

Not that I have seen, but:

For the Time being, I am assuming 15 Points per in list building, but it might be going down to 10. Both follow the strange trends in the Points adjustments.

What is going to be your Troop choice from now on ? Speaking to a friend of mine that loves the competitive aspect he believes 9th will be all about taking and HOLDING objectives, meaning durability and speed are what we should be looking for in our lists. Of course, keeping the lethality necessary in dealing with the opponent's objective holders too.

Breachers are our most resilient Troop choice but don't do much outside of being resilient. Destroyers are the opposite, less tough but great for either anti-MEQ with Grav weapons or anti-all with the new Blast Plasma cannon. Then we have Skitarii with either Rangers or Vanguards. I prefer Vanguards due to the increased volume of fire that fits well with a few Warlord traits and stratagems combination, and the Irradiation rule that helps as a support unit in a brawl.

Well, I already have Vanguards and Rangers, and only a minimum Destroyers unit, so will probably buy a couple more boxes of Kataphrons for a unit of 4 and 5 of Destroyer/breachers, and Will have Rangers take-and-hold Near DZ objectives with Arqubi and Vanguards + Kataphrons moving out towards objectives afield.

While my eventual plans for my admech are to be able to field full-themed armies(Rad Saturated Vanguard, Expansionist Rangers, and Servitor/Cyborg maniple); I am currently fielding a mostly "ad-mech in a Blender" combined arms force.

There's an argument for having a bunch of kataphrons in the sense that they give up almost nothing in way of offensive secondaries for your opponent. Your opponent can score a point for every 10 models they kill or if they kill more units than you or for every vehicle they kill.

If you only have a couple of vehicles in the entire list then all those secondaries are crap, it should be noted that they don't have to choose one of them but in my limited playtesting they are some of the easier ones to score generally.

It'd also leave you with a bunch of tough, obsec troops which is great in 9th. If I owned 30-40 kataphrons I'd easily try it out. But for a more doable build I think a squad or two of breachers mixed in with some cheap squads of chaff are a good bet.

I've not run more than 18 Kataphrons in a game and without agripinaa being viable even with enginewar their just not surviveable enough especially as you cant bubble and score well and its no good stop your opponent scoreing if you give up scoreing to do so

 Aaranis wrote:
What is going to be your Troop choice from now on ? Speaking to a friend of mine that loves the competitive aspect he believes 9th will be all about taking and HOLDING objectives, meaning durability and speed are what we should be looking for in our lists. Of course, keeping the lethality necessary in dealing with the opponent's objective holders too.

Breachers are our most resilient Troop choice but don't do much outside of being resilient. Destroyers are the opposite, less tough but great for either anti-MEQ with Grav weapons or anti-all with the new Blast Plasma cannon. Then we have Skitarii with either Rangers or Vanguards. I prefer Vanguards due to the increased volume of fire that fits well with a few Warlord traits and stratagems combination, and the Irradiation rule that helps as a support unit in a brawl.

My friends who are playtesting on TTS say the exact same thing. Transports and melee got more expensive because they are extremely valuable.

I personally any sticking to the mechanized concept. 3x Boats and 2x Drills full of Hoplites and Blandguard; I might cut one Drill for a fourth Boat to free up points. Anyhow, the usual tactics apply. Get to the objectives with overwhelming force, with the infantry hiding inside or behind their transports. Gun down infantry with the firebase. Crush any vehicles with the Drills and Hoplites. Outlast your opponent.

Breachers aren't fast enough IMO. If you go that route, commit to a dominant strategy of occupying the midboard with a ton of Breachers and just killing everything.

Yeah I'm thinking going full Vanguards too, I don't own any Skorpiuses yet sadly but the idea to mechanise them was always on my mind. Probably going full MSU though, I don't trust big units so far. I'll try my draft list at 1000 pts as soon as I can to see what it's worth. Thinking of going 6x5 Vanguards if I manage to find enough bits to transform a few Rangers into Vanguards.

I might sprinkle a Plasma Caliver in a few squads, I'll see if it's worth it. They're still not excessively tough, though the -1S above 12" should help against bolters.

Gremore wrote:I always liked the way ruststalkers looked, so Im not mad at the idea of them becoming useful. I'm really curious to see how they do, please share your experiences with them in 9th DarkHound!

 Suzuteo wrote:
My friends who are playtesting on TTS say the exact same thing. Transports and melee got more expensive because they are extremely valuable.

Having played a couple simulator games now, and having watched a lot of battle reports, I think you need an assault element in your army in 9th.

I'm definitely leaning on Ruststalkers being quite good, with some caveats. The first being that they're very fragile because every member contributes to combat effectiveness. The second being they absolutely need supporting traits/dogamas/canticles/stratagems. They are a counter-charge unit and you shouldn't run them up the board for no reason. They should lurk around objectives and counter-assault enemies off them because they need the initiative to get their damage in.

After an iteration, this was the list I tested and settled on:I tried the Omnisicient Mask but it doesn't help since you want to springboard away from the Manipulus. You also need to use Conqueror Doctrine and Acquire at all Costs, so consequently they need to be 10 man squads. When they're all pumped up with +1S Canticle and -1AP Dogma, they're removing about 14 MEQ wounds (and something like 8 or 9 Primaris bodies with the Chordclaws). Or with re-roll 1s to hit, they get 23 wounds vs GEQs or ~20 vs Orks.

I was also very pleased with how fast the Vanguard were in this configuration. A 12" move makes the 18" guns go a long way. They could actually consistently use the Artisan's -1AP buff at 9" when clearing objectives.

Rust stalkers arnt good purely because hoplites and corpuscarii do the same role better +1S canticle is too big a penalty for the rest of the army

If someone really wants a +1S on Ruststalkers then Blades are an answer. FW Canticles are way too precious to waste them for Rusties having a bit better wounding.