WOWWW. It affects any attack, including fighting! EDIT: Oh, Shooting Phase. Duh. You can run Ryza without Cawl no problem now though. +2 to hit from two stratagems. Now +3.
I hope he is a named HQ. Triple Battalion would easily become standard.
Vineheart01 wrote: arent you required to base them if they were supplied with a base?
Yes. In tourneys, you run them with the base they got, no matter how weird it is.
Since its only 24 inches in range it screams to me Corpuscari. uploading on 5 and hitting on 2, may be quite good. Lucius vanguard detachment can say big feth you to many targets. Hell, lucius battalion with plasma vanguards will do since you can overcharge on multiple units.
He's definitely going to be "Techpriest Daedolosus" as a unique character, and probably Forgeworld Mars.
However he does look very interesting, nice to see it's a factionwide trait rather than a FW locked one. Ideal for a mixed faction force who can't as easily be boosted by a Dominus.
unfortunately yeah, he's bound to be unique and most likely mars.
Wish they'd give all the factions characters for each dogma/kulture/sept/etc like they did with marines
Hm. So you can still get them in the Combat Arena box, which is $40 at Barnes and Noble. Any idea how much a Blackstone Fortress expansion will cost? Probably also $40? Maybe more, come to think of it. As it includes baddies too.
$110 or something like that I think. Before the rules the individual characters were selling for £20 on ebay - so those Combat Arena boxes look like a decent investment.
Which would be only half bad, as his ability don't limit modifiers to <Mars> or even <Forgeworld> keywords. But I'd love to see some love for other FWs at last... I'm at the point when even removing <Mars> from Cawl's datasheet would satisfy me.
Which would be only half bad, as his ability don't limit modifiers to <Mars> or even <Forgeworld> keywords. But I'd love to see some love for other FWs at last... I'm at the point when even removing <Mars> from Cawl's datasheet would satisfy me.
to be frank, if cawl gave his aura to all our forgeworlds, that would be pretty bonkers (ryzaphrons buffed by cawl reroll? yes please!)
The lack of a FW keyword is a really big deal. Because Elimination Volley still sucks. Imagine a list with 9-12x Ryza Destroyers and 4-6x Mars Robots. Both get that +1 to hit now. The Robots get 3+ with Cawl rerolls. The Destroyers get another +1 to hit for 2+ and Dominus rerolls.
More reasonable prediction would be triple Battalion, two of which are Mars (Breachers+Crawlers+Grators) and the third Stygies or mixed for DS.
Which would be only half bad, as his ability don't limit modifiers to <Mars> or even <Forgeworld> keywords. But I'd love to see some love for other FWs at last... I'm at the point when even removing <Mars> from Cawl's datasheet would satisfy me.
to be frank, if cawl gave his aura to all our forgeworlds, that would be pretty bonkers (ryzaphrons buffed by cawl reroll? yes please!)
When SMs can make a Chapter Master from every single Captain, and now they have rerolling all ability, it wouldnt even be unique ;P
Sorry if this is a dumb question. Is Blackstone Fortress 40K compatible? Also, what are the odds that that forge world-less scanner will get FAQ'ed or errata'd into one?
Tastyfish wrote: He's definitely going to be "Techpriest Daedolosus" as a unique character, and probably Forgeworld Mars.
However he does look very interesting, nice to see it's a factionwide trait rather than a FW locked one. Ideal for a mixed faction force who can't as easily be boosted by a Dominus.
Which means he's useless to me. :(
Where the hell is my Skitarii Primus instead of these useless <Mars> characters?!
Admech has gotten an odd amount of love in the last year. Manipulus, this guy, new transport and tank. Outside of marines, chaos, or gsc I think we have actually gotten more stuff than any other line. Less complaining Kan. More joy!
Hulksmash wrote: Admech has gotten an odd amount of love in the last year. Manipulus, this guy, new transport and tank. Outside of marines, chaos, or gsc I think we have actually gotten more stuff than any other line. Less complaining Kan. More joy!
Nah, more complaining - it was probably what got us these new models...
I was quite salty last year when it comes to the Admech but now... the faction is not only playable, it has tools to actually win in competitive setting. I still think the codex needs revisiting for various reasons, but it's not nearly as bad as it was 2018. So... let's enjoy the moment we have (until they raise the Desintegrators points at least ;P )
Suzuteo wrote: @Kanluwen You could take him in a mixed detachment. His ability seems to work with every Forgeworld, even if he is Mars (or not).
You've missed the point.
Them adding another potentially Martian character is dumb. The Manipulus was such a great thing because it wasn't a named character. Much like UR-025(no Mechanicus keywords), this guy will kill my enthusiasm for the release if he ends up being Martian.
Plus, do we really need yet more Techpriests? They keep taunting with the Skitarii Primus in fluff, just hurry up and do it!
Hulksmash wrote: Admech has gotten an odd amount of love in the last year. Manipulus, this guy, new transport and tank. Outside of marines, chaos, or gsc I think we have actually gotten more stuff than any other line. Less complaining Kan. More joy!
So outside of the three ranges that got overhauled, we got more stuff than any other?
And frankly, unless this guy is a generic character ruleswise? I'm not counting him as an AdMech release. If he ends up being Martian, he's a Mars release bundled with a boardgame.
Sorry, this is just getting frustrating to me. We keep getting more Techpriests. Some of us bought AdMech for the Skitarii side of things, not the Priest crap. There's a reason why I didn't own Cult Mechanicus last edition.
Suzuteo wrote: @Kanluwen
You could take him in a mixed detachment. His ability seems to work with every Forgeworld, even if he is Mars (or not).
You've missed the point.
Them adding another potentially Martian character is dumb. The Manipulus was such a great thing because it wasn't a named character. Much like UR-025(no Mechanicus keywords), this guy will kill my enthusiasm for the release if he ends up being Martian.
Plus, do we really need yet more Techpriests? They keep taunting with the Skitarii Primus in fluff, just hurry up and do it!
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Hulksmash wrote: Admech has gotten an odd amount of love in the last year. Manipulus, this guy, new transport and tank. Outside of marines, chaos, or gsc I think we have actually gotten more stuff than any other line. Less complaining Kan. More joy!
So outside of the three ranges that got overhauled, we got more stuff than any other?
And frankly, unless this guy is a generic character ruleswise? I'm not counting him as an AdMech release. If he ends up being Martian, he's a Mars release bundled with a boardgame.
Have to agree on the <mars> bit. More Mars characters to arguably the strongest FW is a bit of an annoying thing from GW. Especially to less competitive FW like Metalica, a generic guy with this ability would be awesome. At least his abilities affect all Mechanicus units, so I can still use him, and he looks easy to make from leftover cybernetica priests combined with skitarii bits. I also like that we continue to get HQ's with unique abilities, that's the second character we've gotten with a unique buff that isn't just reroll all the things.
Am I weird for being kind of interested in the servitor too? He appears to have a grav cannon on his shoulder and gets +1 to hit vehicles. If he gets the mindlock bit too, he'd be BS3+ against vehicles with a grav cannon and the character keyword allowing him to hide in the open next to a tech priest. Plus he has a servo arm, so he may even be a halfway decent melee character. If he's relatively cheap, would make a nice bodyguard for your warlord, especially since it seems like he doesn't have a FW locked to him from the lore given. You'd essentially have a Kataphron that can't be shot at, IF his gun shares the kataphrons grav profile.
i'd have to see what all the servitor is for to get exited for him.
A servitor hitting vehicles at +1 is...pretty pathetic. They arent exactly accurate to begin with.
They mention in the article he has a grav-gun, so I wouldn't expect him to be a vehicle killing monster.
Also something to keep in mind is that the rules for these models are probably a one time thing. I wouldn't except them to be added to any future codex or rule/point cost updates.
At the moment I am planning on chopping the grav gun off and using him as part of my standard servitors (the rest are made of Necromunda Goliaths mixed with spare kataphron parts)
I reckon he is amazing, although might have its cost as he is well equipped although with a worse armor save, and maybe a better invuln instead, maybe even T3.
He is good for the sole purpose already, that he doesnt buff a <forgeworld> unit, but an adeptus mechanicus unit. So put him in your ryza or graia supplement instead of an enginseer and he will stil be useful. ALSO 3 battalions easily doable IF he will be an HQ, which he qualifies more than the average engineseer.
And frankly, unless this guy is a generic character ruleswise? I'm not counting him as an AdMech release. If he ends up being Martian, he's a Mars release bundled with a boardgame.
Sorry, this is just getting frustrating to me. We keep getting more Techpriests. Some of us bought AdMech for the Skitarii side of things, not the Priest crap. There's a reason why I didn't own Cult Mechanicus last edition.
He's not an Admech release though, he's an AdMech character in a board game. I wouldn't expect to see him or Larsen van der Grauss appearing in an updated codex.
Actually not seen Larsen appear in any lists, there some keyword issue rather or is his 5++ field just a bit rubbish for the points?
And frankly, unless this guy is a generic character ruleswise? I'm not counting him as an AdMech release. If he ends up being Martian, he's a Mars release bundled with a boardgame.
Sorry, this is just getting frustrating to me. We keep getting more Techpriests. Some of us bought AdMech for the Skitarii side of things, not the Priest crap. There's a reason why I didn't own Cult Mechanicus last edition.
He's not an Admech release though, he's an AdMech character in a board game. I wouldn't expect to see him or Larsen van der Grauss appearing in an updated codex.
Actually not seen Larsen appear in any lists, there some keyword issue rather or is his 5++ field just a bit rubbish for the points?
His 5++ is rubbish because it works only on <Eludician Starstriders>. If it was a KFF for Admech equivalent it would be quite good.
Tech priest seems realy good AND is an HQ choice.
X101 is weird, even more so that he isnt a character and the hydraulic claw is a weird weapon.
I find it weird that he cant use his servo arm.
Apparently he is just 50 points which is very nice.
Do you guys think he will be that useful? He has to get within 24" for his ability and your units have to be within 6" of him to benefit. So he kind of has contradicting incentives with the manipulus, which let's you stay back and out range your opponents.
At 50 points I don’t see any reason not to take him in a pure Ad Mech army. Replaces one of your 3 Tech-Priest Enginseers and actually does something for only a 20 point increase.
lash92 wrote: Apparently he is just 50 points which is very nice.
Do you guys think he will be that useful? He has to get within 24" for his ability and your units have to be within 6" of him to benefit. So he kind of has contradicting incentives with the manipulus, which let's you stay back and out range your opponents.
like you can have them both. Manippulous sitting with fire support, and Daedalouses advancing, supporting you in grabbing midfield. Its not direct buff for current lists that are dominant(static gun line) but its hella buff for anything else. For my mechanized list with two squads of corpuscari in transports its no-brainer/mandatory. Technically anything that have 30 ranges can still benefit from him(stay behind him 6" and you still probably will have target, if you position yourself properly with manipoulous even 24" weapons will do). And don't forget that manipoulous have his movement ability too, so he may very well work with him in that manner. Overall big buff for Mobile, assault, and even melee lists(because you can bring your fire support closer, benefit from buff while your assault element can still protect your "backline").
lash92 wrote: Apparently he is just 50 points which is very nice.
Do you guys think he will be that useful? He has to get within 24" for his ability and your units have to be within 6" of him to benefit. So he kind of has contradicting incentives with the manipulus, which let's you stay back and out range your opponents.
That's 30" in total for something in your backfield, so I'd say he's very good. The D3 heal or mortal is quite nice as well for either an emergency healing with the help of another priest (3D3+2 isn't it with a necromechanic with the staff) or as something to give the enemy serious pause up against Admech characters reasonable close combat abilities. You're not likely to win a duel against an untouched enemy character, but if you can counter attack with D3 mortal wounds and then an Omnissian axe - there's a reasonable chance you'll get another 2W in against a captain.
Special Note: If your army is Battle-forged, this unit can be included in an ADEPTUS MECHANICUS Detachment without preventing other units in that Detachment from gaining a forge world dogma. Note, however, that this unit can never itself benefit from a forge world dogma.
Oh wow, he doesn't have a Forgeworld, and doesn't make you lose yours if you take him. If that isn't autoinclude I don't know what is, time to get to converting.
Literally free money if you have a Barnes and Noble nearby I'm sure. The Psyker is almost as good, and the Rogue trader is an Imperial Kellermorph.
£20 each at the moment on ebay for the guys from a $40 set (that you can't get outside the US and Germany).
Yeah that new techpriest is definite autoinclude for monoadmech.
24" limit on his ability just prevents him from sitting with your artillery guys (least turn 1). But the 30pt techpriests are nigh useless, for a measily 20pts more you get one that is actually GOOD. Loses the repair every turn, but who cares.
22 points for a cheap elites choice that can actually attack - normal servitors are 20 for 4, so he can be used for a cheap brigade. (although now with the new HQ triple battalions might be easier.
Also am I reading it right that he gives his buff to ALL units within 6" of him? If so that's insane. I would've been happy if he just buffed one friendly unit at that price, let alone all within 6". Granted it's only against one target, so a knight has a pretty obvious sign to rotate, but I'll take it.
Pretty neat; with Daedalosus buffing every Forge World without having one of his own, you can put him in any detachment you want.
With another cheap HQ, I'm seriously looking at ditching my Krast Crusader. I could trade him for 4 twin-las chickens + a belleros grator + the new priest, and end with 3 more CP than before.
Back in the index days, we discussed omitting the overpriced Dominus entirely on favor of an extra Dakkabot.
I'm probably going back to Dakkabots. Getting them to BS3+ just makes them way too good. I recall so many situations in my recent games where that Daeda ability would come in handy. 30" is a lot more range than you'd think. Hell, even advancing with 2" Manipulus bonus and cancelling out the penalty is totally worth it. (That issue of not being able to get into a good spot around Nova terrain is much less of a concern if you're advancing and then shooting twice, the second time rooted.)
Also, off-topic, but that psyker is also great for Guard.
Suzuteo wrote: Back in the index days, we discussed omitting the overpriced Dominus entirely on favor of an extra Dakkabot.
I'm probably going back to Dakkabots. Getting them to BS3+ just makes them way too good. I recall so many situations in my recent games where that Daeda ability would come in handy. 30" is a lot more range than you'd think. Hell, even advancing with 2" Manipulus bonus and cancelling out the penalty is totally worth it. (That issue of not being able to get into a good spot around Nova terrain is much less of a concern if you're advancing and then shooting twice, the second time rooted.)
Also, off-topic, but that psyker is also great for Guard.
I was also thinking of ditching Cawl, get a dominus and daedadolus, some destroyers to give the robots 2+ to hit
Right now, I am trying two approaches:
1) 2x Ryza Battalion filled to the brim with Ryza Destroyers and Ryza Dakkabots. They would both reach 2+ to hit quite handily. Round out with a Mixed Battalion containing Graia Rangers and Mars Infiltrators. That or Stygies for an assault element.
2) Mars Battalion and Mars Spearhead with Dakkabots, Breacher MSUs, and Grators. Cawl, Manipulus, and Daedalosus give everything to rerolling 3+. Support with Mixed Battalion with Ryza Drills and Graia Rangers.
Suzuteo wrote: Right now, I am trying two approaches:
1) 2x Ryza Battalion filled to the brim with Ryza Destroyers and Ryza Dakkabots. They would both reach 2+ to hit quite handily. Round out with a Mixed Battalion containing Graia Rangers and Mars Infiltrators. That or Stygies for an assault element.
2) Mars Battalion and Mars Spearhead with Dakkabots, Breacher MSUs, and Grators. Cawl, Manipulus, and Daedalosus give everything to rerolling 3+. Support with Mixed Battalion with Ryza Drills and Graia Rangers.
Go for Mars! I have played with Ryzaphrons extensively and they are just to squishy... There is so much good S6+ multidmg shooting which will just chew through them.
This was the first list. Pretty much the Master's City list, only it now has Grators and Daedalosus. Still considering the Mars list because it's hard to fit Daedalosus in; I need to free 2 points, but there's no much fat left...
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
EDIT: Just realized that I could just make that mixed detachment entirely Graia. Anyhow, this list could use a bit more diversity in threats, but I think it has the primary bases covered.
It's also +1 to hit, so will double the chance of Corpuscarii getting triples off too.
So a squad of 10 would get 45 hits on average - 30 wounds on most infantry. Two Termites with 10 Corpuscari each and Daedalosus buffing them both is going to make short work of almost anything that ends up within 12" of them.
Jesus this new guy is beyond awesome, it's almost a instakill button for AdMech. Already seeing a few uses that some of you talked about:
- Robots hitting on 2+ with Elimination Volley + Daedalosus, they're getting scarier with every update
- Corpuscarii proc their Tesla on 5+ instead of 6+, awesome anti-horde capabilities
- Plasma Destroyers freely firing overcharge safely
- Dunecrawlers freely firing at 2+
- Ballistarii too !
Only thing is the 24" of range that will require to move him up a bit. But between the 6" move and the d6 advance there's room to wiggle in. Given that our codex strongly encourages a more mobile gunline style of army I believe he'll fit the bill quite nicely and won't be too afraid of moving up on the board, given a proper escort.
The other nice thing is that he'll make Cawl less of a must-take choice in some lists, giving +1 to Hit and the rerolls from a Dominus closes the gap between Cawl's super bubble and the regular Dominus. If you don't play Mars it makes Robots more attractive, at least a small unit. I know that when playing at 1000 pts (favourite format these days) he'll be in every list instead of the Enginseer, focus fire at 1000 pts is really important and this guy helps tremendously.
On a side note sorry for leaving the main post empty so far, I said I had time when I actually didn't have that much for writing. I'll probably get to starting writing the guide next month now that I'm more motivated by 40k these days.
lash92 wrote: Lack of <Forgeworld> prevents him from going into a drill unfortunately :( Otherwise that would be pretty sweet. Even for WoM.
I could remember it could take the Secutarii so thought it was just Ad Mech infantry, but you're right - it specifically calls them out as things it can carry alongside <forgeworld>.
Sadly Daedolosus is there for his own purposes so he can't even get Murad to call him a cab like the Kill team: Rogue trader ones can.
This release is just so awesome... my experimental Graia castle has just found a way to give all Kataphrons a Noospheric benefits I was lacking.
So at 1750 I'm thinking double Graia Battalions with:
1. Battalion
Dominus (emotionless clarity) and Manipulus, 3x5 Destroyers with Plasma and Flamers (one squad with Phosphors to squeeze Dr D), 2x Belleros Desintegrators (I don't have third unfortunately).
2. Battalion
TPE, Dr. D, 5x 5 Vanguards with 2 Plasma, 2x Icarus
For 2k I'm thinking about some DS support, or 4 Kastelans in place of two Onagers. Tripple Battalion is doable as well, as this list is Infantry focused.
A general strategy: exactly what Dr D was designed to do - move up the board in a castle immune to combat tagging (at least vs Infantry, and light vehicles), with a mid-short range threats overload
Currently I am thinking somthing like the following list:
(after exchanging one of the Enginseers for the new 50pt Techpriest this comes to 1999)
Possibly also making the cheap battalion (enginseers/vanguard) as a mixed force e.g. graia for deny...
Could also swap a neutron for an Icarus as well.
Another possiblity is to remove 1 dakka bot for 2x more plasmaphrons.
Kastelan Robots [18 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Suzuteo wrote: @dadamowsky
You bringing Dakkabots? With the Strafing Run stratagem, their guns become Assault and thus, eligible for Emotionless Clarity.
That's one of the ideas. The other one is having them on fists and make the flamers Assault, but as fists are rather tricky I like the Dakka loadout more. And they synergise with Dr D better, while having better S and AP
I tried the Transport with Ruststalkers, they only killed scouts and hold the objective for 2 turns with lots of cp, so they are still not really worth it.
However, afterwars I put the last coupld ruststalkers an an enginseer in the transport to achieve juicy D3 linebreaker points.
Its also really good for LOS blocking, blocking objectives and block you from charges. You might want to go the route of having at least on of them, maybe park infantry in it and your gunline will be a lot safer.
Yeah, that is what I have been doing with mine. I actually was experimenting with running two. I used to run them Stygies. Having a giant T8 minus to hit LOS blocker in front of my troops was useful.
Anyhow, my concern is that I am too imbalanced toward shooting. Might struggle against an army like Nids or Orks that wants to get really stuck in.
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah, that is what I have been doing with mine. I actually was experimenting with running two. I used to run them Stygies. Having a giant T8 minus to hit LOS blocker in front of my troops was useful.
Anyhow, my concern is that I am too imbalanced toward shooting. Might struggle against an army like Nids or Orks that wants to get really stuck in.
I feel like Dragoons are mandatory, you just need something with some oomph for counter punch. I don't run much else melee though due to a lack of models and due to the fact I can fall back and shoot (with no penalties now thanks to our new HQ). I do feel if you were non Metallica you probably would want some priests in a skorpius or drill as a counterattack element. That said shooting is definitely our strongsuit. While I don't disagree that a list can have too little melee and too much shooting, I do feel admech works best with lots of shooting and a couple of good melee units. Which is probably some mix of Dragoons and priests w/transports.
I think max I'd ever go is something like 4 Dragoons and maybe 2 priest units with transport. Anything extra feels like overkill.
I think max I'd ever go is something like 4 Dragoons and maybe 2 priest units with transport. Anything extra feels like overkill.
Depends on the table. 2x4 Dragoons can be brutal and very effective when the mid-table is fairly accessible for Vehs. It was funny to see the Talos to be too afraid to engage
In my experience, Fulgurites aren't very good counter-chargers. They are much more an assault threat that you send out to pressure your opponent. You get them out to an objective with a Drill, kill a unit along the way, then just camp the Fulgurites behind the brick. They're almost impossible to remove.
Anyhow, it is very hard for me to fit Dragoons in without cutting into the gunline. The big problem is that Battalions only have 3 Heavy Support slots, so I am sort of forced to choose between a Grator or Breachers. Or drop the mixed detachment entirely.
Here is a list that drops the Breachers and the mixed detachment in favor of the traditional AdMech hammer and anvil:
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 820 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
Heavy Support - 440 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 363
HQ - 30 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Not sure what to do with the last 50 points. If money were no object, I would cut the Priest and Drills for 2x Dunerider and 2x10 Hoplites, which is a popular choice these days.
Here's hoping Impulsors are affordable enough for conversion?
EDIT: Apparently, all my Space Marine-playing friends are expecting $65+ for Impulsors... so I am thinking of just converting some Grators out of some backward Rhinos. They have the exact same width as a Dunerider, but need a bit of length to match the profile.
Hoplites do seem to perform really well as a jack-of-all-trades. Put them inside a Skorpius to prevent them from getting shot off the table too easily and pair them with Vanguard. They can do anti-horde and also do quite a number on T5 battlesuits and bikes. They can also be thrown onto vehicles to buy your Dakkabots more time for shooting. They also seem perfect for Daedalosus, which brings them to BS2; Omniscient Mask on a Lucius Enginseer if you need to fight off assault, Solar Flare if you need him to move behind enemy lines.
Anyhow, if they perform well-enough, maybe I might just go crazy and run a Vanguard with 3x10 Hoplite and 3x Skorpius. Just call it a day for my screening needs. (Probably not. The Dragoons are still really good.)
Suzuteo wrote: In my experience, Fulgurites aren't very good counter-chargers. They are much more an assault threat that you send out to pressure your opponent. You get them out to an objective with a Drill, kill a unit along the way, then just camp the Fulgurites behind the brick. They're almost impossible to remove.
2x10 Fulgurites in Duneriders have been a fantastic counter for my Ryzaphron list. They cleared Orks and GS quite efficiently, performing as a carnifex afterwards. With a Prime Hermeticon Manipulus they are pretty much a decent all rounder, since Dunerider dropped.
Anyhow, it is very hard for me to fit Dragoons in without cutting into the gunline. The big problem is that Battalions only have 3 Heavy Support slots, so I am sort of forced to choose between a Grator or Breachers. Or drop the mixed detachment entirely.
)
I'd take a few anyway. Breachers are tough, but the few attacks they have and WS4+ wont let you cut through hordes efficiently enough IMO. If you want only cheap anti horde anti charge unit then maybeeee... Rustst... Ekhem I mean Corpuscarii? I had some success with a big blob of 20 sitting behind my Breachers to wipe the Boyz and orkish Bikers squad in a counter move. They will benefit a lot from Dr D. And are definitely cheaper than Dragoons
Hoplites do seem to perform really well as a jack-of-all-trades. Put them inside a Skorpius to prevent them from getting shot off the table too easily and pair them with Vanguard. They can do anti-horde and also do quite a number on T5 battlesuits and bikes. They can also be thrown onto vehicles to buy your Dakkabots more time for shooting. They also seem perfect for Daedalosus, which brings them to BS2; Omniscient Mask on a Lucius Enginseer if you need to fight off assault, Solar Flare if you need him to move behind enemy lines.
Anyhow, if they perform well-enough, maybe I might just go crazy and run a Vanguard with 3x10 Hoplite and 3x Skorpius. Just call it a day for my screening needs. (Probably not. The Dragoons are still really good.)
Love the list but I am sensing some screening issues without any breachers and/or Dunecrawlers, especially against GSC and new Space Marines. Since I am not sold on Dakkastelansatm this will be my wiggle room I am also not sure about a Cawl list per se since I have the feeling we need styiges -1 to hit for the 5 billion SPace marin armies that will resurface in the near future. Snipers will help out a great deal as well I think.
still, great base for a list, ty!
dadamowsky wrote:2x10 Fulgurites in Duneriders have been a fantastic counter for my Ryzaphron list. They cleared Orks and GS quite efficiently, performing as a carnifex afterwards. With a Prime Hermeticon Manipulus they are pretty much a decent all rounder, since Dunerider dropped.
Right, but the big problem with Fulgurites is that they are very expensive for their durability. If you don't kill what you are attacking, your Fulgurites are super dead the next turn. Before the end of the Fight phase, in fact, if what you are fighting is good at fighting. Furthermore, they cannot take a charge; they have to stay in the transport and force the opponent to kill that transport, then stop the fight by being untargetable. But virtually any unit can do that, even Vanguard.
In my opinion, Fulgurites perform best when you shove them into your opponent's face and kill something. It is incredibly hard for the opponent to deploy forward if they know that that Scout unit is going to feed unkillable Fulgurites.
Ryzaphrons are super good with Daedalosus. Hit on 2s, wound on 2s for everything <T8, flat D3?! Only one hitch: they have a pretty bad matchup against Tau. Savior Protocols essentially reduce your plasma to D1 on a 2+ roll.
dadamowsky wrote:I'd take a few anyway. Breachers are tough, but the few attacks they have and WS4+ wont let you cut through hordes efficiently enough IMO. If you want only cheap anti horde anti charge unit then maybeeee... Rustst... Ekhem I mean Corpuscarii? I had some success with a big blob of 20 sitting behind my Breachers to wipe the Boyz and orkish Bikers squad in a counter move. They will benefit a lot from Dr D. And are definitely cheaper than Dragoons
Breachers can take a hit, but yeah, their fighting is below average at best against anything but vehicles; few vehicles are going to charge into you. I like Corpuscarii as deep strikers, but they suffer from the poor durability problem as well.
Iago40k wrote: Love the list but I am sensing some screening issues without any breachers and/or Dunecrawlers, especially against GSC and new Space Marines. Since I am not sold on Dakkastelansatm this will be my wiggle room I am also not sure about a Cawl list per se since I have the feeling we need styiges -1 to hit for the 5 billion SPace marin armies that will resurface in the near future. Snipers will help out a great deal as well I think.
still, great base for a list, ty!
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
You can also drop a Crawler, Vanguard unit, and the Enhanced Data-tethers for 9x Infiltrator; the Mars Spearhead becomes a Vanguard.
But I don't think these lists will have screening issues with Hoplites, Duneriders, and Dragoons. I like Dakkabots because they are good against everything. The only limitation is LOS-blocking terrain, but typically speaking, any terrain where Dakkabots are absolutely useless is also terrain where most LOS shooting is weak. At that point, you might as well never root your Dakkabots and have them act as fire support for your melee.>
I'd take a few anyway. Breachers are tough, but the few attacks they have and WS4+ wont let you cut through hordes efficiently enough IMO. If you want only cheap anti horde anti charge unit then maybeeee... Rustst... Ekhem I mean Corpuscarii? I had some success with a big blob of 20 sitting behind my Breachers to wipe the Boyz and orkish Bikers squad in a counter move. They will benefit a lot from Dr D. And are definitely cheaper than Dragoons
Breachers with hydraulic claws and a prime hermeticon WL is super good though. Personally I think if you are going breacher heavy you need Prime Hermeticon and some range rerolls like cawl or a dominus and a manipulus. Daedalosus as well. otherwise the dudes are barely a threat. BUT: All of our list have a Daedalosus, Manipulus and a TPD or Cawl so you should be good to go^^
Breachers definitely can be buffed to a frightening degree. They can also essentially be made immortal with repair, resurrection, and Acquisition.
That being said, Hoplites are surprisingly efficient for their points. They've always had two problems though: durability from shooting and mobility. These dirt cheap, borderline OP transports solve both of the problems, and I can see why running a pair is popular now. The only real edge that Breachers have is their anti-vehicle shooting, Troop slot, and objective secured.
Dunerider + 10x Hoplite
+ M12"; both can advance and shoot
+ WS3+ (RRF w/ Mask) 21x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
+ Benefits more from Acquisition
+ Hoplites cannot be charged while embarked
+ More bodies
= T6 W12 3+ (usu. -1 to hit) then 10x T3 W1 4+/5++ (4++ fighting, reflects mortals)
= More vulnerable to morale; can reroll morale
= Dunerider gets dogmas and FW benefits; Hoplites lack FW (useful in list-building)
- BS3+ (sometimes RR1) 12x 36" S4 D1 + 10x 12" S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
6 Breachers
+ BS4+ (usu RRAll) 12x 36" S6 AP-2 DD3 (D6 vs. vehicles)
+ Larger base size, objective secured
+ Can be resurrected
+ Get dogmas and FW benefits
= 6x T5 W3 3+/6++ (5++ w/ strat)
- M6"; can only advance 3", cannot shoot
- WS4+ (RRF w/ WLT) 18x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
Suzuteo wrote: Breachers definitely can be buffed to a frightening degree. They can also essentially be made immortal with repair, resurrection, and Acquisition.
That being said, Hoplites are surprisingly efficient for their points. They've always had two problems though: durability from shooting and mobility. These dirt cheap, borderline OP transports solve both of the problems, and I can see why running a pair is popular now. The only real edge that Breachers have is their anti-vehicle shooting.
Dunerider + 10x Hoplite
+ M12"; both can advance and shoot
+ WS3+ (RRF w/ Mask) 21x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
+ Benefits more from Acquisition
+ Hoplites cannot be charged while embarked
= T6 W12 3+ (usu. -1 to hit) then 10x T3 W1 4+/5++ (4++ fighting, reflects mortals)
= More vulnerable to morale; can reroll morale
- BS3+ (sometimes RR1) 12x 36" S4 D1 + 10x 12" S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
6 Breachers
+ BS4+ (usu RRAll) 12x 36" S6 AP-2 DD3 (D6 vs. vehicles)
+ Larger base size
+ Can be resurrected
+ Can be taken in larger squadrons
= 6x T5 W3 3+/6++ (5++ w/ strat)
- M6"; can only advance 3", cannot shoot
- WS4+ (RRF w/ WLT) 18x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
I mean its not really breacher OR hoplits is it? Yes they both have arc weaponry but they dont have the same purpose.
Also: If playing Dragoons you might as well play breacher since in ITC you will give away gang busters and why not stacking on an unit that the opponent has to go through yet wont get easy ITC points?
I really like that germany finally starts playing ITC so I can have decent conversations about tailoring your army for the mission set.
Well, for the purposes of screening, usually you do want to pick one or the other. At the very least, you CAN substitute.
Well, to be fair, everyone takes BGH and Gangbusters against us. It's the two most obvious choices. It's like taking Kingslayer and Titan Slayer against a Knight list. Or Reaper and Butcher's Bill against Guard.
Well, for the purposes of screening, usually you do want to pick one or the other. At the very least, you CAN substitute.
Well, to be fair, everyone takes BGH and Gangbusters against us. It's the two most obvious choices. It's like taking Kingslayer and Titan Slayer against a Knight list. Or Reaper and Butcher's Bill against Guard.
no worries. wasnt about their similarities for screening but in general. Just recentyl tested 15 breacher plus 20 hoplits. worked out great.
You dont take gangbusters fi there are no dragoons or breacher right? thats mhy i mentioned if you take either the one or the other, you might as well just take both.
Hesselhof wrote: So atm breachers are more prefered than destroyers?
They fulfil very different combat roles.
Personally I dont like destroyers. Possible devastating output but pretty fragile with their 4+ base save and basically no close combat abilities. Huge footprint but not a screen unit at all
I tend to play input heavy toolbox lists but if you are a fan of balls to the wall dakka you might be happy with a lot of dakkastelans and double the ryza plasdestroysers
Hesselhof wrote: So atm breachers are more prefered than destroyers?
They fulfil very different combat roles.
Personally I dont like destroyers. Possible devastating output but pretty fragile with their 4+ base save and basically no close combat abilities. Huge footprint but not a screen unit at all
I tend to play input heavy toolbox lists but if you are a fan of balls to the wall dakka you might be happy with a lot of dakkastelans and double the ryza plasdestroysers
yeah, destroyers are a big "feth you" button. pump them full of juicy stratagems and watch as your opponent melts. And then watch as your destroyers melt as your opponent puts everything into them on the following turn.
It fits my playstyle, i force my opponent to deal with imminent threats while my dunecrawlers + skorpius are the long term damage dealer.
Hesselhof wrote: Ok thx for explain =) may i buy some breachers =P
How do you guys will come to the new techpriest? buy the box and sell the other blackstone stuff?
scratchbuild from one of the datasmiths that are left over. slap some skitarii arms (data thether e.g.) and maybe the ruststalker princeps head (though the "beard" might need to be cut off) on the body and there you go. AdMech is very coversion friendly once you build up your bitbox...and dont care about the exact looks
Hope the tourney organisators dont have a problem with scratchbuild
As a TO I*d like to see your conversion beforehands as will most TOs. Send a pic and aks if its okay and there you go. But do it before the actual event not at the event
Breachers costing so much less and having that +1 armor kinda offsets the drastic dakka punch difference imo.
They arent bad at shooting either, it just isnt high AP shooting and lacks the stratagems. But sometimes its smart to bring units you know you arent planning to use stratagems on, or at least not that often.
IronVaught wrote: Annoyingly X-101 (Servitor) is on battlescribe but Daedalosus isnt yet.
but also - yay battlescribe.
Actually he shouldnt be, I added the root link in for testing to see if he validates and forgot to remove it..
Daedalus is, in the basics, already there, but not selectable since he's not released.
I only had very blurry images of the rules to go on, so I really really not recommend using X yet.
I currently just use my Enginseer (converted from a Datasmith with a Servo-Arm) as my Daedalosus. I have a Combat Arena box, but I am debating just selling the models. I am sure I can make back double selling the individual models at this point.
Iago40k wrote: no worries. wasnt about their similarities for screening but in general. Just recentyl tested 15 breacher plus 20 hoplits. worked out great.
You dont take gangbusters fi there are no dragoons or breacher right? thats mhy i mentioned if you take either the one or the other, you might as well just take both.
Well, if I ONLY have Dragoons for Gangbusters, and they pick Gangbusters, I would hide my Dragoons in the way back and just use my Hoplites for screening. Good luck trying to kill them with shooting. Haha.
Hesselhof wrote: So atm breachers are more prefered than destroyers?
Both are good. You just have to build your list around Destroyers. You can build around Breachers too, but they are also very useful as a screening unit or anvil (durable, static unit) for your hammer (mobile assault unit).
IronVaught wrote: Annoyingly X-101 (Servitor) is on battlescribe but Daedalosus isnt yet.
but also - yay battlescribe.
Actually he shouldnt be, I added the root link in for testing to see if he validates and forgot to remove it..
Daedalus is, in the basics, already there, but not selectable since he's not released.
I only had very blurry images of the rules to go on, so I really really not recommend using X yet.
pretty sure you just flatout cannot give a named character a relic at all.
And if hes your warlord you wouldnt be able to use any of the dogma specific ones, as he doesnt have a dogma.
Yep, thats me! And thanks for the link, I've updated the entry accordingly.. he will be available once we push the next release You don't happen to have seen a x-101 sheet too?
@Thairne
So what's the thinking concerning Manipulus's base point cost? RAW, it's 85. But it's the only example of a model that has a point cost listed WITH wargear (90), but has customizations that are cheaper than the listed point cost (Transonic is 0, but the default Magnarail is 5).
That one threw me for a loop as well.
The weapon has a pts cost.. but that is totally irrelevant since his cost is including wargear. So even if you switch - no discount.
So why they gave the Magnarail a cost that is never used, only GW knows...
Suzuteo wrote: I was just about to post that exact link.
What happens if we make Daedalosus our Warlord? Can we pick and choose a WLT?
Since he lacks a relic, we can give him any relic, right?
All named characters count their gear as their relic, doesn't matter who they are. Doesn't matter if they have unique weapons or not. Check page 100 of the admech codex, in the little intro blurb. It states it there.
As for WLT, he'd be free to pick any generic trait I'd think. They'll probably FAQ him later on to have a set one or something like that.
okay, got a little test game today and tried to put everything i love into the list. C&C welcome, Dont got the time to explain everything thoroughly but I think most of you guys will understand.
That's a really cool list. Might want to put your Dominus in the Servitor Maniple though. Because, you know, it doesn't work in that configuration.
Anyhow, I think you need a larger Breacher squads to make Servitor Maniple more efficient. Maybe 2x5 Breachers? Hell, a 9x blob would also work. Also might want to squeeze some Vanguard in. Maybe drop the sniper rifles and take an Assassin instead?
How are your Canticles though? You find yourself using Divine Chorus often?
Suzuteo wrote: That's a really cool list. Might want to put your Dominus in the Servitor Maniple though. Because, you know, it doesn't work in that configuration.
Anyhow, I think you need a larger Breacher squads to make Servitor Maniple more efficient. Maybe 2x5 Breachers? Hell, a 9x blob would also work. Also might want to squeeze some Vanguard in. Maybe drop the sniper rifles and take an Assassin instead?
How are your Canticles though? You find yourself using Divine Chorus often?
Cheers mate.
Why wouldnt it work? I mean I know I can't give the breachers the +1 to hit strat but other than that its legal isnt it? But I can switch him with the TPE, should work out fine. Yet, with these small uits the +1 is not used very often.
Servitor Maniple is efficient as soon as you play it since your opponent needs to kill off all the breachers of a unit. Usually, they have to dedicate way more fire power than they like too. The smaller units are 1) because of points 2) because 3 troop choices 3) because I have enough cp to buff several units at ones 4) Daedalus gives +1 to one target and I barely shoot multiple targets with my breachers. 5) I usually take 3x5 Breacher but this is a good way in between 9 and 15 I think.
Will see how it works but in my experience the big breacher blob most of the time costs way more CP because I always want the + to saves and I usually have to use 2CP so morale isnt an issue.
Assassins: Tried a lot of Assassins with AdMech but I dont see the point anymore since we got what we want from our own codex. despite a calidus i have all the tools of each assassins on the board. Especially since my vindicare always sucks and i cannot afford that dude to miss each round against orks or the upcoming tide of Space Marines
I got 3 units of vanguard in my mixed detachment for hoplits support
About divine Chorus: I always use it (pity that its a one use only!:( ). Gloria Mechanicus as well. Canticles are key for AdMech, especially when playing this kind of a list where a lot of units benefit from several canticles.
thats why i need all of the buff characters, prime hermeticon and the mask^^
Dominus needs to be in the Servitor Maniple to get access to the keyword. It's a zero cost improvement, so you have no reason not to do it. I mean, you never know when you will get desperate enough to need that stratagem.
I suppose it depends on how you will be using the Breachers. I envision them as a big defensive blob.
Ah. I was hoping the Vanguard would be Stygies too though. But oh well.
This actually reminds me of another list I tinkered with:
Spoiler:
Stygies VIII Battlion Detachment - 1175 Servitor Maniple (-1 CP)
HQ - 120 1x Tech-Priest Dominus - Volkite Blaster, Macrostubber, Warlord: Prime Hermeticon
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer, Field Commander (-1 CP): Master of Bio-splicing
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
For the anvil, you've got a castle of 9x Breachers protecting 3x Grators and 2x Crawlers. They will fry just about anything.
For the hammer, you burn 3 CP right off the bat to infiltrate Dragoons and 2x Transports. Advance the Manipulus and third transport behind them. The third transport carries Skitarii. Drop off a unit of Vanguard behind a Dunerider with Hoplites embarked, then move the remaining forces toward another objective.
Anyhow, your approach is definitely strong as well. More CP, and the Corpuscarii help in that T4 horde weakness that the list has. Hm...
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
For the anvil, you've got a castle of 9x Breachers protecting 3x Grators and 2x Crawlers. They will fry just about anything.
For the hammer, you burn 3 CP right off the bat to infiltrate Dragoons and 2x Transports. Advance the Manipulus and third transport behind them. The third transport carries Skitarii. Drop off a unit of Vanguard behind a Dunerider with Hoplites embarked, then move the remaining forces toward another objective.
Anyhow, your approach is definitely strong as well. More CP, and the Corpuscarii help in that T4 horde weakness that the list has. Hm...
Great list especially since I am always keen on giving Dragoons a go But atm I really prefer to give the Arquebusses a go in pretty much every match up. I love how the opponent needs to shift characters in unoptimal ways.
Yep, thats me! And thanks for the link, I've updated the entry accordingly.. he will be available once we push the next release You don't happen to have seen a x-101 sheet too?
Suzuteo wrote: Ugh. I keep seeing it ruled both ways. It's maddening. EVERYONE SPAM FAQ. If we're lucky, they will take the opportunity to just revise his base cost.
I've been playing it at my store as 85 pts and most people there agree that its how he should be costed. In our eyes, if hes 90 pts including the magnarail, then his cost is (85 + 5)
I’m taking a knight list to a 2k tournament soon, backed up by the Rusty 17. I’m looking for advice on which forgeworld my little metal guys should be from.
The list is:
House Tanaris super-heavy detachment
Crusader with Thermal and ironstorm pod (warlord, probably ion bulwark and the Tanaris relic melta)
Warden with fist, ironstorm pod and melta because I randomly had spare points
Castigator
Krast super-heavy auxiliary
Crusader with RFBC and Icarus autocannons (likely to get the Krast relic and maybe their reroll 1s trait too)
Admech Battalion
2 Tech Priests
3x5 Rangers
I think there are three contenders for my forgeworld, as follows:
- Stygies 8 for pre-battle sneaking around (better screening) and marginally-improved durability
- Graia for a durability and deny the witch
- Mixed Lucius and Graia so I can deep strike things if I want and also deny the witch.
The idea of the Lucius units is that the best way to keep my rangers alive is to keep them off the board. I could then drop them in later on. Probably take the priests as Graia so they can run along behind the knights, repair them, and deny any witches who may come along.
I guess I could go all-Lucius but their trait isn’t amazing anyway. The relic to teleport a tech priest could actually be useful in an objective game.
Otherwise my plan mainly involves shooting avenger gatling cannons at things and then stamping on them until they are dead.
Mandragola wrote: I’m taking a knight list to a 2k tournament soon, backed up by the Rusty 17. I’m looking for advice on which forgeworld my little metal guys should be from.
The list is:
House Tanaris super-heavy detachment
Crusader with Thermal and ironstorm pod (warlord, probably ion bulwark and the Tanaris relic melta)
Warden with fist, ironstorm pod and melta because I randomly had spare points
Castigator
Krast super-heavy auxiliary
Crusader with RFBC and Icarus autocannons (likely to get the Krast relic and maybe their reroll 1s trait too)
Admech Battalion
2 Tech Priests
3x5 Rangers
I think there are three contenders for my forgeworld, as follows:
- Stygies 8 for pre-battle sneaking around (better screening) and marginally-improved durability
- Graia for a durability and deny the witch
- Mixed Lucius and Graia so I can deep strike things if I want and also deny the witch.
The idea of the Lucius units is that the best way to keep my rangers alive is to keep them off the board. I could then drop them in later on. Probably take the priests as Graia so they can run along behind the knights, repair them, and deny any witches who may come along.
I guess I could go all-Lucius but their trait isn’t amazing anyway. The relic to teleport a tech priest could actually be useful in an objective game.
Otherwise my plan mainly involves shooting avenger gatling cannons at things and then stamping on them until they are dead.
So what forgeworld should I go for? Thanks!
i'd go full-on graia since the main point of the rusty 17 is to get access to more CP. Using them pre-game to infiltrate/deepstrike isnt worth it. Theres also the fact that psychic is a big weakness of knights so having a deny option is super good.
Suzuteo wrote: @Mandragola
You pretty much named the two major ones for mixed detachments. Lucius and Graia have great utility.
If you are running just Rusty 17, go with pure Graia for the Abhor and the death resist.
If you are bringing 3x Crawlers or something though, you can take Agripinaa to snipe vehicles like Caladius tanks and Eldar aircraft.
Oh that’s interesting. I don’t think I’ll be doing that to be honest, but what’s the Agripinaa ability that lets you shoot planes down?
And what kind of mix do you think for the Lucius/Graia stuff? I could see just getting one Graia tech priest and making the rest Lucius, with the option of keeping all the rangers off board and using the Lucius teleporting relic for some late-game schenanigans.
Graia seems a good option if I’m not buying equipment for my guys. If I am teleporting about then it starts to make more sense to have things like plasma calivers, or at least the odd arc rifle. On the other hand, Stygies guys with sniper rifles clearly make sense.
I play Legio Astorum in AT, so I could do my little Lucius guys in their colour scheme. They’d probably look quite cool with flames on the coats.
So far I’m just building the little guys and doing the metal bits, but I need to submit my list this weekend. Need to make a decision soon, unfortunately. Hmm.
It's the relic. Pick a vehicle and reroll wound rolls of 1 against it. So if you bring Dominus, Daedalosus, you can pick one flyer and have +1 to hit, RR1 to hit, RR1 to wound.
Oh, and if it's a Chaos vehicle, you reroll failed wound rolls against it.
Aha. I was looking for something that got around hit modifiers. That eye thing looks awesome against chaos knights, though possibly less so for planes. The issue there is hitting the damn things!
To be honest I'm not planning a big Admech army at this point. If I was I think I'd probably go for Mars and paint them in my House Tanaris colours. That remains a non-awful option, as I'd have more chance of getting the right option for Knight of the Cog, but overall I think teleportation is likely to be more useful.
On the CP issue, I certainly won't always teleport my Lucius guys around. I can see it being a really useful option though, to avoid enemies getting first strike against me. But a lot of the rest of the time I'll want my little guys on the board.
I'll have a good look at the scenarios before making a decision. Thanks for the help.
So after going over the math of how I use the Dominus, I've decided to simply change him out for Daedalosus. I find that the reroll bubble has more influence on my army's movement than makes sense for the benefits, so I'm looking forward to adding even more mobility to an already mobile army.
Here is the list I'll be testing:
Heavy Support Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array, Heavy Stubber, Broad-spectrum Data-tether [112]
Dunecrawler /w Icarus Array, Heavy Stubber, Broad-spectrum Data-tether [112]
Heavy Support Disintegrator /w Belleros Cannon [Graia] [111]
Disintegrator /w Belleros Cannon [Graia] [111]
Imperial Knights Super-heavy Aux (Krast, -2CP) [468] -1CP Exalted Court, -1CP Heirlooms of the Household Knight Crusader /w Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm [468]
Total 2000 points, 11CP to start.
If the match calls for an alpha strike then I'll pre-game move the Dragoons and the Boats (full of Hoplites), and teleport the Enginseer with Mask. I can take the Graia WLT to increase the value of the Vanguards in some matchups. After listening to an interview with Bethany Taylor, I'm going to stick with the Krast Crusader until I'm sure I've learned everything there is to know about it. The only thing that's irritating me is having the Grators in a mixed detachment.
LOL. We've come full circle to the Index and early Codex days. Canticles for rerolls, Stygies vehicle spam. Supported by a Knight. Brilliant.
Anyhow, I never found the Dominus to be too big of a problem, but being able to move your army across the board is also nice.
A Krast Crusader definitely adds consistency to a list. It can fight and shoot independently, and is a fast and tough DC. Anyhow, I know Taylor likes the TC+AGC setup, but I always favored the RFBC with a Krast setup.
Also, with Daedalosus, I realize that we can do this now:
Id rather play a stygies brigade with snipers and some dragoons sans 1 balistarii but I love that it could work out I think hoplits need the stygies transport if a first turn push is needed. Plus you know: tougher^^
Knights are cool again, it seems? I love their versatility and consistency, but I always feel like my opponent's objectives are easily picked: GB, BGH, KS.
On another note, what is your experience regarding certain conversions in tournaments? Just trying to figure out how much is allowed, although it might differ from tournament to tournament. I had no problems with my local GW store tournaments thus far.
For example:
1. Only my skitarii Alphas have backpacks.
2. Have some Chaoscultists with canguard/ranger weaponry and heads.
3. Ruststalkers are Kroots on 40mm with appropriate weapons and necron masks as heads.
4. My Hqs are entirely different models... Manipulus being a tentacleridden Plague doctor with a weird flamer like eldar weapon and necronstuff with a cog symbol on top, enginseers are Chaos cultist captain, eldar farseer and datasmith with necron axes.
I have never had problems with conversions in tourneys. I always send pictures in advance, and the response is usually along the lines of "cool models."
I think generally speaking, as long as you aren't screwing with base sizes or vehicle silhouettes too much, it's fine. Conversions are a very well-accepted part of this game. So the only thing TOs are looking out for is MFA.
However, if you are playing in a GW store, you also better have 50% GW product on any conversion.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Keep in mind that NOVA was pre-Daedalosus too. I still think Lewis Stolburg has the strongest meta list right now. My current thinking is also along the lines of Skitarii spam. Lots of mobility and high wound output models, especially the magic combination of S6 and S8 weapons. Looking at these results, I think going all-in on vehicle spam is the way to go. You can only score BGH 4 times.
That 3x Grator, 3x Crawler, 6x Rider list is funny though. And Daedalosus means all of that Stygies Plasma is going to be safe!
Yeah, there were a ton of admech rocking it at nova. Lots of 10+ vehicles running around with 6 of them being onagers and skorpius. I think with the caladius hit post nova and the space marine ramp up admech is only going to get stronger. Only downfall will be the imperial fists for negating our cover.
Right now on non nova terrain the future is mech. Go forth and purchase transports. I expect the average of 6 transports.
I am currently thinking 3 Grators, 3 Crawlers, 3 Duneriders, and 2 Drills. Lol. That or 3 Grators, 2 Crawlers, 2 Duneriders, 4 Striders, 4 Dragoons. Wary of giving up both GB and BGH, though I guess the former list us just BGH and MFD.
Ryza Drill w/ 10 Vanguard, 3 Calivers
Ryza Drill w/ 10 Vanguard, 3 Calivers (or maybe double Stygies Drills with 2x5 Vanguard for 8 more Calivers?)
10 Mars Infiltrators
Drop them in, Daedalosus picks the target, Wrath on Infiltrators, Plasma Specialists on one Vanguard unit, Canticles for rerolls, melt something. (Remember that the Drills also have meltas.)
EDIT: Just realized that Daedalosus cannot embark on any transport. But the plan still works overall.
Debating if I want Dominus or not. Thing is, since I am running Hoplites and Stygies, picking the RR1 to hit is pretty natural. But Lewis primarily ran Mars, meaning his vehicles could get Shroudpsalm as the second Canticle. But I am wary of pumping too many points into this deep striking team. When I talked to Lewis, he said even his Infiltrators were feeling like an overinvestment at times. In games where there is no obvious target, the Infiltrators end up being more than double costed Skitarii. Lucius Corpuscarii are a similar problem. I would probably just bring more plasma instead. If I wanted to get cute with stacking bonuses though, I could also bring double Agripinaa Drill with Eye. But that's probably too much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just spitballing here, but what about this?
Heavy Support - 222 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 363
HQ - 30 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Heavy Support - 333
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Mixed Battalion Detachment - 402
HQ - 80 1x Lucius Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Daedalosus
Something I like about this list is how I can put the Vanguard or Hoplites into the Drills or Duneriders depending on the situation. Vanguard want to be in the Drills when I need to deep strike a ton of plasma somewhere. Hoplites in the Drills against things like Knights. Just wall up and countercharge.
Had to cut very deep to fit everything in though. I would like Data-tethers on the Hoplites for fighting minus to hit targets, a Cognis Heavy Stubber on that second Crawler, and for those extra squads of Rangers to be Vanguard instead, just in case I need to advance and shoot.
@Suzuteo: Glad to see you're on team-Hoplite; they continue to impress me in almost every game. My experience with Infiltrators, however, have left me feeling very ambivalent about them; they're not bad, but I never seem to find a great way to play them.
For posterity, here are the lists that placed in the top 10 at NOVA:
Oh yeah. I was always deterred from using them because I lacked Duneriders and Hoplites. But now, I will have 3 and 20 of them, respectively.
Lewis lost to Mark, but his critiques are that the Neutron Crawlers are bad and that the list is way too dependent on the first turn going right. You pretty much just shove everything into their face and hope for the best.
So the new marine faq added an interesting wrinkle, if you want to be that guy the rule states that any rule that generates extra hits the bit that it generated counts as having rolled that hit now the problem begins in that any hit a taser goad generates that tolls the explodes result causes more hits and there’s no wording in the rule to prevent the extra hit generating extra hits so one dragoon if it explodes could kill anything in the game once you get bored of adding extra hits to hits attack. Same for the corpiscarii and the infiltrators and their goads. With the not specifying marines in the answer you could legitimately argue it applies to everyone.
Needless to say I expect this to get corrected but if you want to kill a knight with one infiltrator or one dragoon here’s your chance haha
Lol. So I was messing around and realized that I could create an army that fit all of its units into 14 drops. (Embark 6x5 Vanguard with Calivers, 2x10 Hoplites, 2 Enginseers into 3x Dunerider, 2x Drill. Deploy 3x Grator, 2x Crawler, Dominus, Daedalosus, Lucius Enginseer. Deep Strike 9x Infiltrators.)
I concead you have infinite hits now please roll infinite wound rolls while I wait for your clock to expire given your clock has expired before you move to damage you never even kill the knight
I've been tinkering with that fabled "hammer and anvil" style since I tire of only shooting (and I become a bit predictable and start to get overwhelmed by guard shooting)... I'm wondering if there's something obvious I could change with this list?
Don't own any Terrax' yet, sadly :/
Cawl isn’t really worth the tax of buffing so few units
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe change the Mars Batallion to stygies and take 3 grators and perhaps look at tweaking things to allow for a slightly different setup. Maybe less melee and las ironstriders instead of a neutron dunecrawler
You got a point there.. I tried to downscale the 2k pts to 1500, but Cawl is indeed to costly for that.
If I drop Cawl and basically go double stygies, I can replace him with a Dominus and switch the Enginseer to Daedalosus...
That leaves me with 91 points so I could swap 2x vanguard for 2x Breachers if I manage to cut a few points.
Thats a lot of S6 shooting... While I prefer to have something stronger yet (dont own any other chickens), the inconsistency of the Neutronager has caused me to throw a few dice a bit forcefully the last game
Ideasweasel wrote: @Suzuteo. All aboard team transport! What would you take with the 8-900 points you have left (the first list)
Srsly, try corpuscarii, especially with deadalouses incoming. I tried it, an man its good.
Mars in a transport or Lucius?
I played them in Mars, sine it gives me more options for buffing them(can get canticles reroll for combat and so on.) and having one or tw more options for use of WoM is also good.
about the infinity loop, it doesn't make you loose on clock, as you can decide to proceed with wounds and armor saves and then repeat in batches. Aldough no one would do that because any TO will rule that out, and rule it as it should be.
U02dah4 wrote: See the fast rolling ymdc thread you may either resolve sequentially or fast roll all you cannot batch roll.
Since you cant roll infinity you must roll sequentially
Although with a dragoon its not going to be to bad a taser goad would take all day to roll sequentially
well no, You can batch roll. There is nothing to prevent that as long as you remember normal restrictions. There is no point of rolling 50 attacks at once if you target for example one model. Roll 10-20 dice and once model is dead rest of the attack is gone. Anyone who cals otherwise is either dumb or rule bending. For example its common to roll hits and wounds in batches, but then switch to rolling single dice for multi damage weapon. As long as your way of rolling doesn't change result that you could achieve by resolving one attack at once its ok. Think it this way, Rolling all attacks at once i one single batch, rolling single attack is rolling smallest batch possible, and anything in-between is still ok.
U02dah4 wrote: Yeah its an auto loss on anyone that uses it
Just play with a clock
I concead you have infinite hits now please roll infinite wound rolls while I wait for your clock to expire given your clock has expired before you move to damage you never even kill the knight
Technically, you can speed roll in any batch size you want, as long as it is the same weapon on the same target. So no, this rules lawyering doesn't work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thairne wrote: I've been tinkering with that fabled "hammer and anvil" style since I tire of only shooting (and I become a bit predictable and start to get overwhelmed by guard shooting)... I'm wondering if there's something obvious I could change with this list?
Don't own any Terrax' yet, sadly :/
Anvil - Mars Battalion
Cawl
Enginseer
3x5 Rangers, 1 Arquebus each
2 Dakkabots
1 Neutronager
1 Grator
If you have a second or third transport, those Vanguard can be a part of your Hammer as well. Charge the transport to take OW, charge the Vanguard to apply -1T aura, then plow into them with Dragoons and Fulgurites. With +1S Canticle, your Fulgurites are wounding T4 on 2s. Then just put Acquisition stratagem on them and laugh; 2 CP per to hold an objective essentially.
6 Arquebuses is the magic number to kill most <100 point HQs.
Take 2-3 Crawlers or none at all. IMO, you should do 2x Icarus and 1x Grator, probably Stygies VIII with a Dominus and Daedalosus. (IMO, that's the new default best.) Also, Breachers are probably a good Anvil here. Though you seem to be moving more toward mechanized, and if we're dropping Cawl, it makes less sense.
Here's a sample list I created that is very close to what you've got going:
Here are two lists I am considering testing now, both of which are Mechanized Skitarii (actually quite gratifying to hear that such an archetype now exists) that don't give up Gangbusters.
First is the Lewis Stolburg list, but with Arquebuses and Infiltrators swapped out for Hoplites in Duneriders. I also went to Stygies and cut the Dominus because the Hoplites rely on picked Canticles, which are effective for the entire army anyway:
Heavy Support - 336 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 363
HQ - 30 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Mixed Battalion Detachment - 664
HQ - 80 1x Lucius Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Daedalosus
One downside is how rigid the game plan is. Hoplites go into the Duneriders and Ryza Vanguard into the Drills. The Stygies Vanguard also sort of just screen. One thing that I can do is to cut the third Crawler and put in a Dunerider, four Calivers, and downgrade the third Vanguard to a Ranger, but then I run into issues visually differentiating so many different types of infantry for an unclear advantage.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
In this list, Vanguard can go into the Drills or the Duneriders. This means you can drop them with the Infiltrators to shoot from behind a wall of Drills, or you can turtle up with Hoplites in the Drills. No Plasma Specialists though. I feel the Ryza Vanguard with PS + Doctrina is just such a strong counter to a lot of things. No Graia Abhor either, which is not too big a problem since there's no big units for Gangbusters that need to be protected from Doom and Jinx.
I find it absolutely hilarious how virtually everything gets crammed into five tin cans too. The army has only 14 drops; the Daedalosus and Dominus are deployed outside the transports, but the Enginseers go into the Drills.
My only problem is that I don't have enough Calivers to run this list at the moment, but that can be remedied.
Thanks Suzuteo, such advice was precisely what I had hoped for I'm just playing casually with 2 friends (Guard and harlies), so I don't need to be bleeding cutting edge, but I don't want a list that falls face first into the dirt when something is a bit different ofc.
Some of the choices in the list are a bit of a meta choice - Arquebi are basically just there to plink some wounds off of armoured sentinels e.g., characters are always out of LOS, so actual sniping will hardly happen. But those are easy to drop from the list.
I've been wondering for quite a while why Kastelans seem to have disappeared from the lists... they perform consistently well against either guard or harlequins at removing pesky infantry squads or seriously damage heavier ordenance with WoM. Neutronagers at least CAN seriously hurt heavy stuff, which I find the Grator to be lacking in. How do those lists deal with T8? And is the Grator actually useful in a anvil, since its strength is in the mobility so you move out from the dominus' aura?
Also, Icarus Crawlers are fine and dandy unless you have to shoot T7 or even T8 (such as LR), at which point Mathhammer tells me I might as well not even try .
Would you run the list the same, knowing you'd go against guard?
I also really struggle to find the points to include a second transport... if we go up to 2k, that's easy and the vanguard can get geared up.
I'd either have to drop a grator/onager or the Kastelans which at all points would hurt, but may actually be worth it for those extra plasma shots...
Kastelans require cawl locking you into mars and are largely restrictive to castle lists which tend not to be fun to play or as good in objective based formats.
In my lists what aura now we have daedalosus and 2-3 enginseers i don't think we need a dominous and daedlous moves forward with your army
Also ive not had a problem with knights I run a crusader a squad of hoplites 3 dunecrawlers and 3 grators as my staples and these combined with a dragoon squad tend to handle them fine.
Dragoon squad hits knight A
Dunecrawlers and knight and grators if required combine fire on knight B
Hoplites are positioned to block an advance from a gallant type knight - delaying it for a turn
This is my london GT mechanicus list and ive not had a knight problem in playtesting
Interesting.
If I drop the Kastelans and the Dominus and rely on Daedalosus, I can run 2x Grator, 2x Onager and 2x Duneriders with the Vanguards geared with plasma and switch to a Brigade for even more CP.
So the Dragoons are there to kill T8 and stop knights? Dont they just get stomped into the dust? They' should on avg deal like 3-5 wounds on a knight and unless the Knight is on a lower profile the return swings are going to hurt.
@Thairne
Is the Grator build permanent? Because You can always be cheap like me and cannibalize the parts to make Skorpius Rhinos.
Robots are a tough sell because they are hard to fit into lists. See, AdMech has great efficiency because our early codex was written with a lot of squadroned vehicles. But there are a number of armies out there with great ways to kill big units. Tau and Eldar especially.
We have to build around our squadrons then, and Robots are a powerful but dependent squadron. They require Cawl, Manipulus, and Daedalosus to perform at their best. They also need ~8 CP devoted entirely to them. 3 Grators are also needed for non-LOS as well as an anti-air option, such as 2x Icarus Crawlers. So your best option is to take everything in a Mars Spearhead. You need Graia Skitarii to abhor Doom and Jinx, so a Mixed Battalion. Your last detachment then also needs to be a Battalion to get the necessary CP. Finally, you also need to handle counter-charging, so Stygies for Dragoons, Priests, or Hoplites. Note that if you deviate at all, you have to make major sacrifices. If you change the Mars Spearhead to a Battalion, you have to lose a Grator and the Crawlers or drop the Stygies Battalion and add yet another Mars Spearhead. If this is the case, you need to take a Mars counter-charger or put them into your Mixed unit. My solution before these mechanized concepts were proven out was a Mars Battalion, Mars Spearhead, and Mixed Battalion with Ryza Drills serving as deep-strikers or counter-chargers.
@U02dah4
I find that to be a mistaken belief. I think Robots are actually strongest in the objective missions. This is because objectives don't move. They are weakest in the manoeuvre warfare department, which is what the mechanized list excels at. Once you root your Robots, you simply will not able to shift your fireline to constantly pressure the army. So in a matchup where the enemy is forced to come into LOS, you have a disgusting advantage. But in matchups where he can play defensively and attack from afar or from behind LOS blockers, it can be a struggle.
i cant tell if im just playing crawlers wrong or if im just insanely unlucky. 2x icarus 1 neutron with a dom around as Stygies. Neutron fires at whatever vehicle i can, usually a random dread or predator, icarus i usually dump into low toughness multiwound models (bikes, nobz, termies) since i swear my opponents know if im using admech instead of orks even though i say nothing and never bring a flier when i got my icarus crawlers lol.
They never do anything other than draw fire. I wanna say between the 3 of them they kill ~200pts throughout the game, never as an alpha attack either so what they killed still did some damage. Part of me wants to just swap to all neutrons but i feel like soon as i do that im gonna face minimal vehicle lists lol. Is there a stratagem im not using that would help them? I know they are affected by the +2 to hit strat but i tend to dump that on my autocannon ironstriders since its more shots benefiting from it due to being a squadron.
Knights are kinda rare in my area, except for the 1 monoknight guy (which tbh is not a threat because he doesnt know half his rules very well)
Suzuteo wrote: @Thairne
Is the Grator build permanent? Because You can always be cheap like me and cannibalize the parts to make Skorpius Rhinos.
Robots are a tough sell because they are hard to fit into lists. See, AdMech has great efficiency because our early codex was written with a lot of squadroned vehicles. But there are a number of armies out there with great ways to kill big units. Tau and Eldar especially.
We have to build around our squadrons then, and Robots are a powerful but dependent squadron. They require Cawl, Manipulus, and Daedalosus to perform at their best. They also need ~8 CP devoted entirely to them. 3 Grators are also needed for non-LOS as well as an anti-air option, such as 2x Icarus Crawlers. So your best option is to take everything in a Mars Spearhead. You need Graia Skitarii to abhor Doom and Jinx, so a Mixed Battalion. Your last detachment then also needs to be a Battalion to get the necessary CP. Finally, you also need to handle counter-charging, so Stygies for Dragoons, Priests, or Hoplites. Note that if you deviate at all, you have to make major sacrifices. If you change the Mars Spearhead to a Battalion, you have to lose a Grator and the Crawlers or drop the Stygies Battalion and add yet another Mars Spearhead. If this is the case, you need to take a Mars counter-charger or put them into your Mixed unit. My solution before these mechanized concepts were proven out was a Mars Battalion, Mars Spearhead, and Mixed Battalion with Ryza Drills serving as deep-strikers or counter-chargers.
@U02dah4
I find that to be a mistaken belief. I think Robots are actually strongest in the objective missions. This is because objectives don't move. They are weakest in the manoeuvre warfare department, which is what the mechanized list excels at. Once you root your Robots, you simply will not able to shift your fireline to constantly pressure the army. So in a matchup where the enemy is forced to come into LOS, you have a disgusting advantage. But in matchups where he can play defensively and attack from afar or from behind LOS blockers, it can be a struggle.
i play a lot of etc style with 6 objectives in the game you break your robots legs they sit on one. And may solidly hold it but that leaves 5 they don't interact with
@Suzuteo
Thanks for the explanation! As said, I'm not that cutting edge and I basically never run into the FLGS for a random game (bunch of WAAC, heat and cramped space) but I understand your reasoning. If my opponents ever TRULY branch out and play different styles, I'll take your advice to heart!
@Vineheart I feel ya.
I've run 2 or 3 Onagers consistently for all of 8th in all my lists, either as Neutron or Icarus (I wonder if the other options ever become viable).
I've had one Onager plop Leman Russ like it was nothing on T1 and had 2 Onagers dealing not a single wound to one for 2 turns.
Mathhammering says that shooting a Russ without buffs and rerolls has a 35% to whiff; even if you buff him up there's a ~20% chance of doing nothing. The added layer of RNG with Heavy D3 shots really hurts and the icarus suffers from the -1 to hit if no FLY are nearby.
The wide array from 0 to 3 wounds with 18 damage total is just too wide and errs on the lower end more often than not.
With the new Hammer&Anvil style I try to adopt I might drop the Onagers all together and may even go for a Cybernetica Cohort...
Yeah i noticed that.
Its nice that they cant do less than 3 damage but i think ive had them do more than that...once? Especially when i never seem to roll a 3 for shots.
If it wasnt for the fact that my admech army is heavily limited right now (trying to not assemble anything unless its painted) i might just can them. I have 1 skorpius ready to go and another in a box still as well as the 6 robots from the apoc box still untouched. But i am not doing what i did with orks lol....90% assembled before i even painted a single model..big mistake as i find it difficult to paint stuff i dont have an urge to put on the table lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i noticed that.
Its nice that they cant do less than 3 damage but i think ive had them do more than that...once? Especially when i never seem to roll a 3 for shots.
If it wasnt for the fact that my admech army is heavily limited right now (trying to not assemble anything unless its painted) i might just can them. I have 1 skorpius ready to go and another in a box still as well as the 6 robots from the apoc box still untouched. But i am not doing what i did with orks lol....90% assembled before i even painted a single model..big mistake as i find it difficult to paint stuff i dont have an urge to put on the table lol
Yeah, neutron laser suffers heavily from the "lascannon syndrome", i'd much rather have a -1 to hit but more shots.
Neutron Crawlers are pretty bad now. Struggles against minus to hit, invulnerable saves, and tendency to overkill. Las Striders are much better. They can squadron for Doctrina and have better volume for points. S9 AP-3 DD6 is a solid profile for anti-tank shooting (a lot of 2+/5++ profiles out there).
Icarus Crawlers are good against Tau, Eldar, Nids, Chaos Daemons, and Custodes. They can also be turned on infantry, though Mars Crawlers are better for this (Daedalosus helps, and I find Cawl to be less mandatory now that Icarus Crawlers hit ground at 3+). They definitely are a unit that accumulates damage though. They are very tough and weather return fire well, especially as Stygies.
Ironically, all armies i rarely see lol.
Harlies show up fairly often but even though they also have no wheel/track based vehicles they still are mostly on foot anyway, and the things on foot dont "fly" despite acting like it which is annoying.
1k Sons, vanilla marines of most flavors, orks (to which i am the ONLY dakkajet/wazbom lover so i never see those), and even sisters are more common than eldar/tau for me lol.
Im in a weird meta.
Heavy Support - 440 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phopshor Blaster
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 383
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Basically, my initial playthroughs found that the original really struggled against horde; once they got past the Drills, it was over. And while two Drills and Infiltrators let you instantly kill a Knight, it probably was overinvesting in this capability. So I cut one of the Ryza Drill combos, added Hoplites as a screen and counter-charger, and also my usual Swiss Army Knife choices in the Mixed detachment.
Recent changes in Space Marines are making me reconsider this strategy somewhat. If games become a lot more mobile, it can be hard for the Robots to keep up. I doubt most Marines will just come out into the open to be shot. Lots of shenanigans with Drop Pods and Rhinos as well. My most recent list has been Stygies Skitarii with 3 Grators, 2 Crawlers, 2 Duneriders w/ Hoplites, 4 Dragoons, 4 Las Striders. Lots of shooting and moving.
Heavy Support - 440 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phopshor Blaster
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 383
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Basically, my initial playthroughs found that the original really struggled against horde; once they got past the Drills, it was over. And while two Drills and Infiltrators let you instantly kill a Knight, it probably was overinvesting in this capability. So I cut one of the Ryza Drill combos, added Hoplites as a screen and counter-charger, and also my usual Swiss Army Knife choices in the Mixed detachment.
Recent changes in Space Marines are making me reconsider this strategy somewhat. If games become a lot more mobile, it can be hard for the Robots to keep up. I doubt most Marines will just come out into the open to be shot. Lots of shenanigans with Drop Pods and Rhinos as well. My most recent list has been Stygies Skitarii with 3 Grators, 2 Crawlers, 2 Duneriders w/ Hoplites, 4 Dragoons, 4 Las Striders. Lots of shooting and moving.
I gotta ask: why the drill with plasma dudes? 3 plasma weapons even if ryza, are barely enough to kill anything Id think. In a matchup where vect is involved even less. Could you tell me the reasoning behind it?
You can deep strike them within 12" of a flyer, disembark immediately, use Doctrina and Plasma Specialists, and blow up the target with D3 Melta Cutter, 8 Stormbolter, 21 Radium Carbine, and 6 Plasma Caliver shots that hit on 2s, wound on 2s, and deal 3 damage each. Stolburg ran two of these, so on turns two and three, he can just delete units of choice. The Vanguard die the next turn probably, but the Drill remains as a powerful anti-vehicle model.
Suzuteo wrote: You can deep strike them within 12" of a flyer, disembark immediately, use Doctrina and Plasma Specialists, and blow up the target with D3 Melta Cutter, 8 Stormbolter, 21 Radium Carbine, and 6 Plasma Caliver shots that hit on 2s, wound on 2s, and deal 3 damage each. Stolburg ran two of these, so on turns two and three, he can just delete units of choice. The Vanguard die the next turn probably, but the Drill remains as a powerful anti-vehicle model.
allright, cheers.
So I will play a tournament soon and since i dont have the 2 duneriders i need for the list i would like to play, I have the following list in mind:
works great so far, yet I am not sure on the dakkabots and thinking about trading them for a drill with either fulgurites or corpuscarii or even hoplits. the ryza idea is neat but I thik i need something besides the dragoons for a counterpunch. any ideas? I got a lot of cpatm and for my taste a bit too many rangers but somehnw i cannot set my mind on a build that makes sense.....
Yeah, Stygies Dakkabots are underwhelming. I think a Drill and Fulgurites if you want something to complement the Dragoons. That or a third Crawler with snipers or more Breachers.
I personally still like Cawl for this sort of list. RRAll and the consistent Shroudpsalm is what makes Breachers tick. Of course, Daedalosus helps, but he makes Dominus value comparable to Cawl for BS3, not BS4.
cheers suzu. With all the Tau armies that are running around I think Stygies is just plain better. With the Grators, Manipulus and now Daedalosus I didnt had any Problems deleting those units I wanted to.
I think the biggest plus for Cawl is his canticles manipulation at this point. Thats why i try to get as many CP as possible if playing without him. Of course his rerolls are still insanely good but very often I just overkill a lot of things. Plus I like to play more input than output based so he becomes even less of an appeal to me.
Yeah. Lots of Tau in my area. I have found that Breachers are not that great against them. Lots of S5-6 shooting, and Battlesuits are not vehicles for some reason. Sigh.
This is actually what I was running before coming out to Tokyo:
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
I usually just shove my Dragoons and Hoplites into his face. He has to spend his entire first turn or two killing them, or I will get into melee with his Broadsides and GG. Meanwhile, all my tanks are just concentrating fire into one battlesuit at a time; they also shoot at the Drones whenever possible, as I have to kill them anyway, and they're relatively easy to kill with high volume fire.
yeah love that list. as soon as i get my fingers on the last 2 skorpius i will play that. for the moment i have to settle with a drill^^
actually breacher are pretty cool against tau since tau players want to see them dead (dont know why) early on. They are a pain in the ass to shift if they sit on the objectives and tau really doesnt want to shoot at stuff that is not that big of a thread damage wise. Yet they have to.
I think they shoot them because they think that they can kill them relatively easily with Riptides. But it's a bad move. They should really be going for the tanks. Heavy Arc Rifles fare poorly against Tau compared to Icarus Arrays, Belleros, as well as plasma and lascannons in general. If you run Dakkabots, they absolutely will do stupid things to try to kill those. Because Dakkabots do AMAZING damage against any battlesuit.
Heavy Support - 440 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 363
HQ - 30 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
+Gives up only Gangbusters
+LOTS of dakka
-BS4
-Low shooting variety; all S6
-No Graia to abhor Jinx/Doom
-No Deep Strike
I think this sort of list has been what was successful in the past. It's an incredibly tough midboard gunline with lots of consistency. However, concentrating models into big units is increasingly dangerous. Eldar, Tau, and a variety of lists love shooting at such targets.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
+Single Graia Servitor to abhor
+Hoplites and Dragoons for robust assault/screening/counter-charge
-Gives up Gangbusters and BGH
-Low shooting variety; all S6
-No Deep Strike
I think this is more typical of a codex favorites list. Lots of strong models, but not a lot of flexibility or meta resilience.
Transport - 146 1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
+Only gives up BGH
+T6-7 with RRAll and Shroudpsalm is tough and consistent
+Hoplites for robust screening/counter-charge
+Sniper rifles
+Good variety of weapons; S6-8
+Lucius Enginseer for Recon/Linebreaker/Ground Control
+Graia Vanguard for abhor
-Mars and Cawl may be an overinvestment
Actually don't have much criticism of this one. It is a modified Stolburg list.
Transport - 146 1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 574
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 334 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array
+Only gives up BGH
+T6-7 hulls with -1 to hit are crazy tough
+Hoplites for robust screening/counter-charge
+Sniper rifles
+Good variety of weapons; S6-8
+Lucius Enginseer for Recon/Linebreaker/Ground Control
+Graia Vanguard for abhor
Actually think this is where the meta is going now that we have Daedalosus. I also think Tau and Marines are going to be our primary shooting foes. T6-7 bodies are important in this matchup.
0XFallen wrote: Whats your take in the Dominus on different Point levels, I always thought of him as a bit lackluster.
I use them for the servitor detachment and to help boost my firepower as Metallica since I have no offensive buffs, but for stuff like Mars he's not very handy. The volkite is the only gun worth using, the rest of his guns are a bit meh, his melee profile is pretty weak, and he's a pain to kill until you realize he can only get a +5 invuln for some dumb reason now. He exists solely to reduce your reliance on benediction of the Omnissiah and that's about it unless you're running the Vigilus servitor detachment.
He really needs better invuln save options (you know, like he had in 7th) and better guns. The macrostubber would be good if he could fire it with his other weapons. The eradication Ray is really too swingy to be useful, and the phosphor serpents is pretty useless now that it can't tag an enemy unit and remove it's cover for allied units. I'm cool with his melee not being great, he's a nerd with a fancy looking wrench, it shouldn't be that powerful. Sadly he really just doesn't do much which is a shame for a guy that should be the scariest individual in the admech army.
1hq enginseer
2hq daedalosus
3hq enginseer
4hq enginseer
Dominous pips into a 5th hq but only because you cant take cawl out of mars and the manipulus sucks outside a castle)
I pretty much only take Dominus to save the RR1 Canticle, as mentioned by MrMoustaffa. I tend to use Shroudpsalm on turn 1 to weather incoming shooting and RR1 on turn 2 when all of the Deep Strike comes down. I then usually pick +1S if needed or spend 2CP to repick Shroudpsalm. Beyond that, Canticles are not too important, since the match will have mostly been decided at that point. Reminder: We can always move our units into actual cover instead of Shroudpsalming.
A part of me wants to cut him. Another 60 points is nice; I can downgrade the Ryza Vanguard to Rangers and bring a fourth sniper unit as an extra screw you to character-reliant armies. That or try to squeeze another Dunerider in. Or, if I cut deeper, an Assassin; the idea of a Vindicare plus 6 sniper rifles will have a lot of armies quivering in ruins dropping bricks. Also, weird tech: picking something like Culexus against Tau is counter-intuitive, but surprisingly good, not to mention hilarious. Basically drop him in with some Skitarii in enclosed ruins. Then watch them try to kill your Skitarii then your Culexus with Smart Missiles in a reasonable amount of time.
On that note, I am seriously considering downgrading the Ryza Vanguard to Rangers permanently. I lose the ability to advance, Doctrina, and still shoot at BS2, but I have found that since I shoot at T6-7 targets primarily, the math on Rifles is better than that of Carbines (2*2/6 vs. 3*1/6). Though depending on the target, it is important to point out that the Carbines have guaranteed D2, since they only wound on 6s.
It looks like carbines would actually be better, 1/3 of a wound on a rhino equivalent vs 1/4 of a wound with the rifles. Even against a +2 save, carbines get 1/6 of a wound and rifles get .13 wounds.
Man, no way. His castle role is a bit niche if anything, imo. Helps against some specific matchups but otherwise usually not necessary.
But his movement aura is fantastic for our many units that wanna move and charge, especially paired with Stygies infiltrate for first turn charge potential
If you are running pure Stygies, Manipulus is easily the most important HQ. You can keep him in the parking lot to boost the range of the Mortars or your can move him with your assault units and Daedalosus to play a more aggressive game. Two more inches of movement per turn; your Plasma Vanguard can advance, and you can cancel out the penalty with Daedalosus. (Remember though that Daedalosus and your Hoplites do not benefit from Manipulus, so keep the latter in the transports and reroll advances occasionally if you feel like Daedalosus is falling behind.)
As a pure stygies player at the LGT I have no manipulous for a reason - its completely unimportant.
You don't want to be running a parking lot you want to be pushing forward to board control and 6-12" move + 36" range + the amount you deployed forward makes range irrelevant. What use is shooting past their backboard.
Most of the time if the vanguards 9.5" move doesnt get in range 1 inch extra wont help and it doesn't buff hoplites.
U02dah4 wrote: As a pure stygies player at the LGT I have no manipulous for a reason - its completely unimportant.
You don't want to be running a parking lot you want to be pushing forward to board control and 6-12" move + 36" range + the amount you deployed forward makes range irrelevant. What use is shooting past their backboard.
Most of the time if the vanguards 9.5" move doesnt get in range 1 inch extra wont help and it doesn't buff hoplites.
Manipulus is your most important weapon against Tau and great in every other match up. If you want to push forward you use him for his movement buff or if you need to drop in counter chargers. Never had a game where that dude didnt deliver. He gives great flexibility. I also play Stygies. Would love to see your list though.
Well my recording is 12 - 0 vs Tau this year (3 different TAU players its a popular army in my playtest group). It's not an army we should have any problem with. There are far tougher pairings.
The movement buff doesn't make any difference to pushing forward. In most cases. If you want to drop in counter chargers they are no where near him as they are in the hole you oppened up on an objective, and he doesn't buff from deepstrike. Plus chances are if your stygies your not deepstriking those options are lucius or mars.
In the below list i have one real counter charge and thats the hoplites which typically try and ruin out of los upon the flank of the dunecrawlers or in the way of a gallant.
Spoiler:
Battalion stygies
Daedalous - monitor malevolous
Enginseer - relic - autocad...
3 x vanguard
1 x 13 hoplites
1 x 4 dragoon
1 x 2 phosphor kastellans
Spearhead stygies
Enginseer
3 x Neutron onager
3 x disintegrator energy cannon
Aux
1 x mechanicus freeblade knight crusader Thermal cannon+ spearhead
U02dah4 wrote: Most of the time if the vanguards 9.5" move doesnt get in range 1 inch extra wont help and it doesn't buff hoplites.
If your movement is 9.5” with them then they’re advancing, in which case the Manipulus gives them +2”, not +1”. Plus one to move and plus one to advance, for a total of plus two.
Not only is 11.5” a big and often crucial improvement over 9.5”, the upping of the minimum move from 7” to 9” tends to be a big deal - if you’re choosing to advance it’s typically in cases where 7” wouldn’t be good enough but 9” or 10” would be.
Plus yeah, the big improvement to dragoons and regularly deployed transports turn one for turn one charges and early board control.
U02dah4 wrote: Well my recording is 12 - 0 vs Tau this year (3 different TAU players its a popular army in my playtest group). It's not an army we should have any problem with. There are far tougher pairings.
The movement buff doesn't make any difference to pushing forward. In most cases. If you want to drop in counter chargers they are no where near him as they are in the hole you oppened up on an objective, and he doesn't buff from deepstrike. Plus chances are if your stygies your not deepstriking those options are lucius or mars.
In the below list i have one real counter charge and thats the hoplites which typically try and ruin out of los upon the flank of the dunecrawlers or in the way of a gallant.
Spoiler:
Battalion stygies
Daedalous - monitor malevolous
Enginseer - relic - autocad...
3 x vanguard
1 x 13 hoplites
1 x 4 dragoon
1 x 2 phosphor kastellans
Spearhead stygies
Enginseer
3 x Neutron onager
3 x disintegrator energy cannon
Aux
1 x mechanicus freeblade knight crusader Thermal cannon+ spearhead
Of course you still deepstrike, be it with infiltrators or a drill oO
If you win 12 games in a row against Tau I question their skills though Regardless, you are an advocate against the manipulus while people try to convince you yet you want to stick to it. So good for you then and all the best.
I’m not saying u02 should use one or that his list needs one. He just opened with the line that Manipulus sucks outside of a castle, which as a general statement I think is wrong. The Manipulus not only has uses beyond a castle that don’t suck, it in fact has far better uses than in a castle. The castle is one of his worse and less points-efficient uses as I see it!
Going to have to agree that Manipulus is only key against Tau for Robots and Plasma Destroyers. So Mars and Ryza lists primarily.
However, I disagree with the assertion that they are unimportant. Vanguard, Fulgurites, Dragoons, Duneriders, and Drills all benefit immensely from +1" to move/advance/charge. And the option to play defensively with 42" mortars is nice, but it is as Pomguo said, the less valuable ability in a Stygies list.
Any 3x Grator + 2-3x Crawler list, not to mention any Robots list, is favored against Tau, that's for sure. I personally am 3-1 against Tau in tournaments so far. Won against two Triptide lists, one Crisis list, and my loss is to a Taunar list; that game was pretty gross though. Personally, I am surprised you are 12-0. My Crusader is usually is a crater by the end of round one, which gives up 4 VP right off the bat. The Dragoons or Robots usually go next for another 4 points, and if I cannot bring down a Riptide by then, it's GG.
As to Tau two are mid ranking tourney players and the third runs a competative list but doesn't have the time to tourney.
I acknowledge when advancing adds 2" not the 1" however it doesn't change the point that the majority of the time it has almost no impact because your dudes are getting in range anyway or your opponent has deployed back and it still doesn't get you in range. While he doesn't function out of deepstrike or in a transport list. So its not no value what it is is less value than the alternatives (enginseer and more pts or dominous)
That kind of leaves only footslogging or castles where range might help but we are the wrong faction for footslogging and castles are not great.
In what way do drills or dragoons benefit from +1"
My experience of dragoons is I deploy them forward of the rest of my army useing the stygies steat I then move them maximum distance way beyond my HQ and charge T1 on most deployment maps. If not due to an enemy back deployment I am positioning them far enough away for a -2 to hit and the manipulous wont be their to buff them.
With a drill I don't own them but I imagine its the same thing if your deepstriking he doesn't buff so unless your holding your drills till t3 while he slowly runs up the board (behind your lines to keep him safe hes not buffing them and you really want to be landing your drills t2. Since he doesnt buff out of deepstrike or drills I'm not sure how he helps fulgurites they will be shot to death footslogging even with the stygies strat.
Which leaves vanguard and corpuscarii. Well vanguard will be more efficient most of the time if you just take more of them and corpuscarii are still not efficient enough even with daedalosus
As to 4vp from crusader part of that is that I tend to play more ETC style missions than ITC where the crusader is worth 1kp unless your unlucky on maelstrom and partly its that if they focus the crusader they get hit by evérything else and a lot of difficulty in faceing TAU is knowing your target priority which I have down so when i hit I hit the right things. Plus they really struggle with -1 to hit and the t7+ saturation
I think you are under-utilizing the potential of your Dragoons and Drills then. Another 2" of move then charge helps Dragoons to set up for combat sliding and trapping. And Drills need the 2" since they've only got 8" move. The Fugurites obviously won't come out until they are ready to charge, and the Manipulus can very easily keep up with the Drills until then if both are advancing. Remember that the Manipulus should advance into position BEFORE the other units start their moves.
i dunno. i only got a handful of admech games under my belt and that manipulus bonus movement has been the sole reason my vanguards were all in range or made the charge way too often to say hes useless.
My vanguards are usally either a screen or on an objective I will happily charge with them but they are not an awesome melee unit that you have to get into combat even vs something squishy like guard.
What do you mean? How does Manipulus fall out of buff range with 6" range and 8+D6" advance? That is 17.5" range on average. So on average dice, it would take a Drill 6 turns of non-stop advancing to totally fall out of range.
Think about it. Let's assume Drills are at the deployment line. Infiltrate is 9". Turn 1, Manipulus moves 11.5"; in range, Drills advance 13.5" (22.5"). Turn 2, Manipulus advances 11.5" (23"); in range, Drills advance 13.5" (36"). Turn 3, Manipulus advances 11.5" (34.5"), Drills advance 13.5" (49.5").
I suppose you fall out of range for the charge boost after the first turn, but as you said, you are charging well before that, though if it's really important, you can always just infiltrate the Manipulus as well.
Though gap would be slightly bigger because i would probably place my hq a bit back so he couldnt be targetted. I suppose i could drop a dragoon back a bit however practically dragoons are chargeing an avg of 26" from your closest point often 24" up. You have enough room to make thecharge in most cases especially if your second. The lists you wont are the ones that deploy as far back as you can and those you would need a 10" boost not a 1"
Sure i could stygies strat him aswell but then I have an HQ ahead of my lines just waiting to be targeted.
Oh your footslogging drills thats really slow T3 is way to late to be hitting the enemy.
T1 drill in deepstrike manipulous 11.5" please dont shoot me I have no bodyguards
T2 drill arrives drops off cargo cargo charges with command reroll manipulous 23" not in range
T3 drill and cargo if alive move to next target manipulous if alive 33.5" maybe in range however drill and cargo don't need boost as at enemy lines.
It's fine for Dragoons. You even get the charge bonus on turn one.
Uh... nobody deep strikes Drills though. People are actually surprised I can deep strike them at all. Doubly surprised when I can immediately disembark the contents.
The Drill is the bodyguard? I mean, I guess someone can try to get past your Drill to snipe the Manipulus, but then they'd just be solving your problem for you. Disembark the Fulgurites the next turn, gobble up the unit that is closer to it than your Drill.
Since the topic of bringing knights in with admech is a thing again, how come i literally never see anybody mention the preceptor? i get part of his value revolves around armigers but i like using armigers anyway (i try to avoid the aux superheavy detachment) The other 3 gun+melee knights tend to get lumped together since there really isnt a difference other than what gun they got, but the preceptor has a unique gun and that reroll aura for armigers. Just got my knight fully painted so im trying to figure a way to use the guy. Dont have any dragoons, robots, or kataphrons built yet so my listbuilding is kinda odd atm
The lightning lock guns look kind of fun. I don’t think it would be competitive but I’d love to run a preceptor and a ton of those LL armigers spewing out S6 Tesla shots like nobody’s business
Those armigers are all around better. The only thing they dont hurt reliably is T8 stuff, which armigers shouldnt be targeting anyway if they can help it.
Part of me wants to get a pair, part of me doesnt because i already have 4 warglaives and 2 helverines lol
Sadly no, i wasnt really intending to get warglaives at all but 4 of them were included in a 100USD trade for 30 rangers, 4 warglaives, and 2 doms.
Bought the helverines later but havnt assembled them yet.
Had a ton of fun at the East China Open and went 3L-2W, which is about what I was aiming for. One win a day!
Competition was tough and I faced two lists with 3+ knights, which gatekeeper’d the hell out of me. Wasn’t mobile enough with enough of my army to contest objectives reliably against them, and didn’t have nearly enough firepower to deal otherwise. Killed two knights in each game (plus a war dog in one) but was then tabled each time. Not helped that I didn’t really know or check the loadouts in the imperial game and so killed my own dragoons charging a monstrous 3dmg flamer. That left me scoring barely anything in 2/5 games, so i came dead last out of the two-win crowd.
Overall I think the list performed well in the other three games. My loss to DG was very close and completely my fault for messing up the deepstrike and melee following that (also forgot to move everything on one side of the board one turn... which I needed to grab the bonus objective). The custodes player was trying a magic box irritant list and I managed to squeeze out a win against that, and the final CSM game was a newish player who I tabled without too much trouble.
I definitely felt the lack of anti-T8. The 6 plasmaphrons weren’t really enough by any measure even with safe overcharging, and I definitely want to work some las chickens into the list to help out... I may remove the new transport and fist priests, who consistently underperformed (AP0 is rough!), but I’m also thinking maybe that was just due to 5 games where the worst save was a 3+, and I’d miss them against proper hordey lists. I’m gonna have a sit down next weekend and look through my list rating the performance of each part and thinking what I should cut.
But as a first GT experience it was fun! Lots of the regulars I knew from living in Beijing made the trip to Shanghai and got to clash with my new crowd, and got to meet folks from as far away as HK.
How are your fulgurites crossing the board to reach their target? They’re quite fragile before they kill something for that invuln upgrade and they aren’t the fastest by themselves. I’d probably say cut 8 of them and bring a drill to put the remaining 12 into.
@Pomguo
Hm... your list should have been okay. Was the terrain sparse or something?
One key trick you should always remember in that matchup: You can infiltrate units into choke points to tarpit Knights. This is because they cannot move over even Skitarii unless they are falling back. This means you can get to turn two without getting charged. You can also keep vehicles out of LOS or range.
Meanwhile, it is key to concentrate your army on killing one Knight at a time and to use deep strike and movement to get to the objectives.
Another neat trick is to use your transports to absorb OW and to pin them (either against another vehicle or a building); they can stomp, but they were going to do that anyway. At least this way, you deny them a shooting phase (and a Knight that misses a shooting phase hurts a lot), and your opponent may have to use other Knights to rescue his pinned Knight.
Finally, abuse ruins. Place objectives on top of them. Hide your units inside of them. Knight players hate that, but serves them right for bringing so many super heavies.
@Hesselhof
Your Fulgurites can use a transport. Maybe swap out the Crawler for one? You can also use more Destroyers.
thx for reply. Right now i dont own an admech transporter :(
in the test games it worked, i guess good, to use the terrain
Or cut all of them? but what to bring? i can include 3 more destroyer, i dont own laser chickens too
These are the complete rules for this tourney:
Spoiler:
Maximum 1250 points
- Army must be battle forged.
- No understrength-units.
- Only one (1) detachment and only one (1) faction, e.g. Craftworlds, Astra Militarum, Space Marines. (Ynnari get a fraction in addition to the characters)
- No unit more than once from HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Flyer
- No Lord of War
- A maximum of three times the same troops selection
- A maximum of two times the same transport selection. If there is only one selection available, this selection is permissible three times.
- Units with more than one model per unit and one or more of the keywords VEHICLE, MONSTER or BATTLESUIT can be used provided:
Models that have a base cost (no weapons and/or equipment) of 61 or less per model can be used in units composed of 1 to 3 models.
Models that have a base cost of 62 or more per model can only be used in units with the minimum number of models.
- Maximum 90 models per list▪
- No Forgeworld model with more than 350 points including weapons and equipment.
I would drop the Crawler and 5 Fulgurites for 3x Destroyer then. I recommend also just making everything Ryza, unless you can fit a second detachment in. (At this low point count, everybody is going to be trying to kill your Kataphrons on turn one anyway.)
Hesselhof wrote: thx for reply. Right now i dont own an admech transporter :(
in the test games it worked, i guess good, to use the terrain
Or cut all of them? but what to bring? i can include 3 more destroyer, i dont own laser chickens too
These are the complete rules for this tourney:
Maximum 1250 points
- Army must be battle forged.
- No understrength-units.
- Only one (1) detachment and only one (1) faction, e.g. Craftworlds, Astra Militarum, Space Marines. (Ynnari get a fraction in addition to the characters)
- No unit more than once from HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Flyer
- No Lord of War
- A maximum of three times the same troops selection
- A maximum of two times the same transport selection. If there is only one selection available, this selection is permissible three times.
- Units with more than one model per unit and one or more of the keywords VEHICLE, MONSTER or BATTLESUIT can be used provided:
Models that have a base cost (no weapons and/or equipment) of 61 or less per model can be used in units composed of 1 to 3 models.
Models that have a base cost of 62 or more per model can only be used in units with the minimum number of models.
- Maximum 90 models per list▪
- No Forgeworld model with more than 350 points including weapons and equipment.
adds more firepower and defense in the forms of the Breachers, more destroyers (probably worth it for the Servitor Maniple though at this point - and possibly even enhanced bionics since everyone will be shooting the destoryers.), and also Operative Sanctioned for Anti-whatever characters/psykers/etc. use the breachers as a the anvil, and hit back with the dragoons if needed.
EDIT: if you take the servitor maniple as well you end up with 5CP to spend during the game (i forgot to include the detachment/BFCP when putting on Battlescribe) 4 if enhanced bionics on the destroyers, and that then gives you 2 turns of +1 to hit and (if Ryza) +1 to wound and damage, unless your assassin gets lucky - don't forget if they kill a character then you can spend 1CP to get 2 back (3 if warlord). also consider the monitor malevolus trait for CP regeneration? if you are not ryza it gives a bit more CP to spend e.g. 5++ save on the breachers? or conqurer doctrina imperative on the dragoons.
@Suzuteo
Terrain on the tables I played knights on was fine, just not enough was tall enough to block a knight’s LoS. I did concentrate on killing one knight at a time but yeah probably should have done some kind of shenanigans like charging vehicles into them (or at least into the one without a high strength 3dmg flamer), because the retaliatory firepower was able to wipe way more than I was killing each turn, and remove all infantry from anywhere near objectives.
Although I feel like charging vehicles means they get to kill me in my own turn and then they’re free to shoot next turn anyway? Admech vehicles are so fragile.
Hesselhof wrote: thx for reply. Right now i dont own an admech transporter :(
in the test games it worked, i guess good, to use the terrain
Or cut all of them? but what to bring? i can include 3 more destroyer, i dont own laser chickens too
These are the complete rules for this tourney:
Maximum 1250 points
- Army must be battle forged.
- No understrength-units.
- Only one (1) detachment and only one (1) faction, e.g. Craftworlds, Astra Militarum, Space Marines. (Ynnari get a fraction in addition to the characters)
- No unit more than once from HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Flyer
- No Lord of War
- A maximum of three times the same troops selection
- A maximum of two times the same transport selection. If there is only one selection available, this selection is permissible three times.
- Units with more than one model per unit and one or more of the keywords VEHICLE, MONSTER or BATTLESUIT can be used provided:
Models that have a base cost (no weapons and/or equipment) of 61 or less per model can be used in units composed of 1 to 3 models.
Models that have a base cost of 62 or more per model can only be used in units with the minimum number of models.
- Maximum 90 models per list▪
- No Forgeworld model with more than 350 points including weapons and equipment.
adds more firepower and defense in the forms of the Breachers, more destroyers (probably worth it for the Servitor Maniple though at this point - and possibly even enhanced bionics since everyone will be shooting the destoryers.), and also Operative Sanctioned for Anti-whatever characters/psykers/etc. use the breachers as a the anvil, and hit back with the dragoons if needed.
EDIT: if you take the servitor maniple as well you end up with 5CP to spend during the game (i forgot to include the detachment/BFCP when putting on Battlescribe) 4 if enhanced bionics on the destroyers, and that then gives you 2 turns of +1 to hit and (if Ryza) +1 to wound and damage, unless your assassin gets lucky - don't forget if they kill a character then you can spend 1CP to get 2 back (3 if warlord). also consider the monitor malevolus trait for CP regeneration? if you are not ryza it gives a bit more CP to spend e.g. 5++ save on the breachers? or conqurer doctrina imperative on the dragoons.
Nice one! But i dont own Breachers =/
That would be my next question: do you guys have some buy advice for me - Breachers, the new tank, Laser Chickens? the new tank i would buy 3 and build it with the 3d3 mortar^^. But what first? Guess my wife is killing me XDDD
That would be my next question: do you guys have some buy advice for me - Breachers, the new tank, Laser Chickens? the new tank i would buy 3 and build it with the 3d3 mortar^^. But what first? Guess my wife is killing me XDDD
Yestarday i assembled my first Skorpius Disintegrator. I have second box, but dunno what to asseble from it: Disintegrator or Dunerided. How Dunerider plays now? I think about Dunerider with 10 fulgrites or 2x5 vanguards with 2 plasma callivers.
Disintegrators and Duneriders are both great. However I don’t think one Disintegrator is enough on its own, 3 is ideal and 2 is workable - otherwise you aren’t likely to actually kill that annoying out of LoS unit. One Dunerider is probably okay if supplemented with Dragoons but I think 2 is about right, 3 is good in the right list. Vanguard are still better off in a Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill but are probably palatable in a Dunerider, but I think Hoplites and Electro-Priests are the optimum units for embarkation in those.
@Pomguo
Don't charge them into anything with a melee weapon or Headsman's Mark. You can usually survive unbuffed Feet.
@ImperialDwarf, Hesselhof
Both are great. Duneriders are cheap and fast transports with decent supporting fire capabilities. Grators are pretty important in ITC. Our big weakness was non-LOS shooting.
If you look in my thread (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/779602.page), you'll see the Skorpius Rhino conversion I've been working on. I'll post updated pictures sometime later this week. They look great and let you build a second kit on the cheap.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So... what is everyone's solution to Iron Hands? Primarily, IH Executioners, secondarily, Leviathan Dreadnoughts. I cannot think of anything but Robots (4-6x or 2x3) at this point. Everything else either dies too easily or has problems of its own against the other armies to beat. Or do you think the usual T7 tank firebase can stand up to an IH gunline?
Snipers will be important to remove the support characters. They get less nasty once you can get rid of that super-heal and the -1 damage aura. Also, dakkabots won't care about reduced damage shenanigans.
You can very easily make both the tank and transport out of that kit btw.
The only piece thats truly an issue is the turret servitor. But the tank turret can be assembled without it, i just put one of the rangers that normally go inside up there instead so it doesnt look empty.
Spoiler:
This has 0 magnets btw. Even the gun barrel for the tank just happens to stick there with plenty of rigidity. All i did was i left the ladder off on the transport, didnt put the two rangers inside, and put a ranger on the tank turret. Oh and the front fender bar thingy isnt there since that would get in the way of the tank top.
Cawlstar bots obliterate the IH lev dread with every buff active, even with infantry acting like drones for it. But that pushes us back to the old boring Cawl robot list that I’ve been avoiding for almost two years now, which is saddening. Hopefully it just gets a nerf/fix soon.
Still mulling over my tourney performance. Hard to know how well I would’ve done against some of the other lists present, and I’m certainly on the lower end of the scene in skill terms. Am trying to resist stuffing my list with anti-knight - my lists were warped for a few months by my fear of a nid list back in Beijing and it made my list have more issues with everything else. So not wanting to fall into that trap and end up with a knight killer list that can’t do anything else. Just not sure what I could have done in those games. I may ask a different knights player for some practice games soon.
Pomguo wrote: Cawlstar bots obliterate the IH lev dread with every buff active, even with infantry acting like drones for it. But that pushes us back to the old boring Cawl robot list that I’ve been avoiding for almost two years now, which is saddening. Hopefully it just gets a nerf/fix soon.
Still mulling over my tourney performance. Hard to know how well I would’ve done against some of the other lists present, and I’m certainly on the lower end of the scene in skill terms. Am trying to resist stuffing my list with anti-knight - my lists were warped for a few months by my fear of a nid list back in Beijing and it made my list have more issues with everything else. So not wanting to fall into that trap and end up with a knight killer list that can’t do anything else. Just not sure what I could have done in those games. I may ask a different knights player for some practice games soon.
Remember, this game isn't about killing your opponent stuff. Its about having more points at the end of the game. Especially now that sudden death rule is mostly out of use. You should have ability to kill one knight a round with your army at 70% strength. That saves you vs multi knight/chaos brothers type list. But vs knight+support often time its better to kill rest. after all, knight can score only one objective marker most of the time.
@Spera I think my list could do so - dragoons, drill, fulgurites, neutron onager all had knight-hurting power. The issue became surviving, really. I could take a knight out each turn bur I’d lose more than that each turn, and so those parts weren’t alive long enough to keep it up. Board control also didn’t succeed in either game, as both players had enough small arms fire on their knights to remove a couple of screens/obsec units, preventing me from grabbing more while their ranged knights grabbed more.
Maybe I need 9 squads of skitarii at this point... though that hurts my ability to kill at 70%. Definitely need to practice to figure out multiknight lists.
I am feeling that maybe I have too many pieces that aren’t committed enough - maybe 6 dragoons would function better than 4, maybe 2 skorpiuses over 1, maybe 9 plasmaphrons instead of 6, etc. Try to do less things but do things better.
I did what you did for awhile, but I wanted 3 Duneriders and 3 Grators on the board simultaneously. So I bought three Rhinos for a bit more than the price of one Skorpius kit, and I built another three Grators using the turret and front "lid" portion.
@Pomguo, Spera
Being able to kill things tends to help you score more points. ITC is still a very killy format.
I think I will have to bring an Assassin. Performs better than the Arquebuses IMO, and it frees up my troops to run and capture objectives; not to mention, Marines have strong snipers and anti-infantry of their own. That FNP is brutal though; have to reserve rerolls for damage maybe.
Fair, being able to actually USE both out of 1 kit would be nice.
Though i dont have any fulgurites so the transport isnt super important to me. Ruststalkers could use it, but so far people seem content on ignoring them for...some reason...i imagine that'll change because theyre actually doing a stupid amount of damage for me as a result lol
I did what you did for awhile, but I wanted 3 Duneriders and 3 Grators on the board simultaneously. So I bought three Rhinos for a bit more than the price of one Skorpius kit, and I built another three Grators using the turret and front "lid" portion.
@Pomguo, Spera
Being able to kill things tends to help you score more points. ITC is still a very killy format.
I think I will have to bring an Assassin. Performs better than the Arquebuses IMO, and it frees up my troops to run and capture objectives; not to mention, Marines have strong snipers and anti-infantry of their own. That FNP is brutal though; have to reserve rerolls for damage maybe.
If the rangers could just move and shoot the arquebuses (you know, like they did from the start) I could see them being more useful than a vindicaire, but sadly I do agree, as it is vindicaire is way more useful.
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Kastelan Robots [18 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Transport - 146 1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 574
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 334 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
Kastelan Robots [18 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: Questor Imperialis
. House Mortan
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Knight Gallant [20 PL, 352pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
++ Total: [136 PL, 12CP, 1,985pts] ++
3. a bit like the first but with breachers - if i can prox them
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
From the Salamanders leaks, there comes this strategem:
2CP Self Sacrifice
Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent’s Shooting Phase. Select one SALAMANDERS INFANTRY unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, enemy units cannot target any other INFANTRY units from your army that are within 6” of the selected unit, unless that unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing unit and is visible to it.
So... did we just get untargetable Kataphrons? So I could put 600 points of Ryza Plasmaphrons in plain sight and have them be untargetable?
the "unless that unit is closest" bit kinda makes that strat hard to use though.
The angle of attack can easily make the kataphrons closer than the salamanders you picked. And they'd have to basically be in the wide open to prevent that so they'd go down pretty dang quick.
Vineheart01 wrote: the "unless that unit is closest" bit kinda makes that strat hard to use though.
The angle of attack can easily make the kataphrons closer than the salamanders you picked. And they'd have to basically be in the wide open to prevent that so they'd go down pretty dang quick.
I’m not sure I get your reading. If you screened the Kataphrons with your usual infantry up front then neither the kataphrons nor the sallies unit would be closest and so the kataphrons wouldn’t be targetable until everything in front of them was dead, no?
Pomguo wrote: From the Salamanders leaks, there comes this strategem:
2CP Self Sacrifice
Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent’s Shooting Phase. Select one SALAMANDERS INFANTRY unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, enemy units cannot target any other INFANTRY units from your army that are within 6” of the selected unit, unless that unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing unit and is visible to it.
So... did we just get untargetable Kataphrons? So I could put 600 points of Ryza Plasmaphrons in plain sight and have them be untargetable?
I’m confused. How does this benefit us in anyway? Isnt this almost a reverse cloud of flies? Unit the salamanders select protects units from being targeted within 6 of it...or am i missing something?
Oh i see because the second INFANTRY keyword has no qualifier for people that blasphemously soup tin cans into their army
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
Congrats. Big blob of Kataphrons is always a nice midfield anchor. I am just afraid of Fist Heavy Bolters now. =(
How were the Mars Drill+Corps? I always figured it was cheaper to use Infiltrators myself, but I am curious.
Thanks :-) the drill worked out 2 out of 3 times, the electro priest and wrath of Mars were disappointing since tau and nurgle have ways to negate the taser rule. So all in all it was a nice try but giving that we have boats now I won't use the drill and for the foreseeable future no jazzhand priests.
I am all about a hoplits boat party :-D
Breachers... Yeah need to test against Marines but never forget that we pay only 300 pts for this unit. If it does die against imp fists that means a lot of stuff won't.
Pomguo wrote: From the Salamanders leaks, there comes this strategem:
2CP Self Sacrifice
Use this stratagem at the start of your opponent’s Shooting Phase. Select one SALAMANDERS INFANTRY unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, enemy units cannot target any other INFANTRY units from your army that are within 6” of the selected unit, unless that unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing unit and is visible to it.
So... did we just get untargetable Kataphrons? So I could put 600 points of Ryza Plasmaphrons in plain sight and have them be untargetable?
I’m confused. How does this benefit us in anyway? Isnt this almost a reverse cloud of flies? Unit the salamanders select protects units from being targeted within 6 of it...or am i missing something?
Oh i see because the second INFANTRY keyword has no qualifier for people that blasphemously soup tin cans into their army
As far as I am reading this, it’s basically an infantry-only Cloud of Flies aura that gives all nearby Imperium infantry the Character-like untargetability (except the unit it is used on, whom the aura is measured from, because it says “any other units” not “any units”). Thus, blob of 12 Kataphrons can only be targeted like a character could be.
Front of your army cheap chaff. Preferably out of LOS.
Somewhere behind them have salamander character.
Behind salamander character within 6" you have all the infantry you want to protect from the shooting.
As long as enemy doesn't get closer to your units than salamander character is he can't shoot at them. Not even with snipers. Meanwhile the chaff ahead your character ensures the character can't be shot either.
So unless he has enough snipers to kill the salamander character(assuming he hasn't LOS blocking terrain to hide while at) or wipes out the front screen the salamander character and all units behind him are 100% immune to shooting.
What would also work is putting the Sallies character behind the Kataphrons. Doesn’t matter if the Kataphrons are closer to the enemy than the Sallies char, just that they are not the closest enemy unit to the firing unit and visible.
You did point out something I missed - sniper rules allow for exceptions for characters but nowhere does this power say anything about characters. So even snipers can’t shoot these kataphrons.
Transport - 146 1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 574
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 334 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
I feel this is by far the most well-rounded choice. It's got a bit of everything. Melee, shooting, movement, deep striking, etc. And it only gives up BGH.
--
Next up, Stygies tank spam back up by a Krast Crusader:
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Heavy Support - 336 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
House Krast Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 497
Lord of War - 497 1x Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Exalted Court (-1 CP), Heirlooms of the Household (-1 CP)
Total: 1998 points 11 CP
Krast Crusaders just chew up Primaris, Primaris vehicles, and Chaos. And it's actually quite surprising how hard it is for them to bring down Stygies vehicles and Knights; they may manage to bring down the Knight on turn one, but if they fail, MSR and double repair with Necromechanic and Tech-Adepts will really punish them. Really, in many matchups, they will have to make the hard choice of going for my Crusader or the numerous Stygies tanks that they know they may struggle to kill as the game drags on. The transports also carry Plasma Vanguard that they don't want getting in range of their vehicles. Only downside is that it gives up both BGH and Kingslayer. I also won't have any Graia to help defend him against Eldar.
Thing is, this all assume Dreadnoughts. But if it's Executioners... they are tough to crack without using Robots.
At the China ITCs so far they haven’t done Best in Faction for every codex faction, they just did best Imperium/Xenos/Chaos. Is there another reason I should care about losing Ad Mech pure status? I was thinking a Supreme Command of Phobos Salamander HQs to grant Kataphrons untargetability would be a huge boon to an otherwise Ad Mech list the same way that old Dagger of Tu’Sakh IG detachment was.
Well, back then, Soup with the largest detachment being AdMech counted as AdMech. Now, there are specific rules governing what is AdMech.
That being said, it seems hard for people to play something other than Tau or Space Marines right now. It's a bit ridiculous how hard it is to kill certain things.
Sure, but in my local (and indeed national!) ITC scene, even pure Ad Mech just counts as “Imperium” for Best in Faction etc. So is there a reason I should care about souping like this?
Hesselhof wrote: Can someone explain me, for what the mixed detachments are good for? Would be interesting
As in multiple chapter/regiment/whatever in detachment? Access to multiple relics/warlord traits/stratagems. Generally not worth for big detachment but I have seen it used for say ork det's with grots as troops(CP, various relics, grots don't have trait anyway), marine supreme commander where lack of traits isn't issue but say different psychic disclipine + relics + stratagems can be helpful etc.
How to use this with ad mech I don't know. But that's the idea. Getting relics etc from multiple sources.
Use of stratagems, relics and wl traits.
Graia infantry can deny the witch on a 4+ for 1cp,lucius units can drop for 1cp, stygies units infiltrate, Mars can use wrath of Mars etc.
As per relics you can choose pre game which one suits you best against your opponent. You have a lucius engineer? Pick the solar flare for late game teleport or take omnissiahs mask for melee support.
As per relics you can choose pre game which one suits you best against your opponent. You have a lucius engineer? Pick the solar flare for late game teleport or take omnissiahs mask for melee support.
Till now i only was on tourneys where to set it fix with sending the list =/
As per relics you can choose pre game which one suits you best against your opponent. You have a lucius engineer? Pick the solar flare for late game teleport or take omnissiahs mask for melee support.
Till now i only was on tourneys where to set it fix with sending the list =/
Rubberbands, different basecolours or colours as a whole.
Since ITC is getting more and more accepted in germany and with the new TTM changes, most tournaments will let you pick before the game rather the tournament.
@Hesselhof
Basically, many of the dogmas suck and certain relics and stratagems work best with specific units. Therefore, mixing and matching Forge Worlds make sense.
--
Crazy idea: Cawlstar without Cawl.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 945 Servitor Maniple (-1 CP)
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Mars Battalion Detachment - 620 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
It's a bit zany, but basically, you can spend 3 CP to give the Robots and both Destroyer units +1 to hit. Daedalosus gets them to +2 to hit. So you got all these BS4 units hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s.
You could put the Destroyers into one big unit, but then it's harder to hide them on turn one. They also can't maneuver separately and can get focused down more easily.
One huge concern is the lack of a counter-charger. I could bring Stygies Dragoons, but that might make the list more vulnerable to psychic powers and also lack the option to deep strike.
Thoughts? I am generally frustrated at the limited options we have for dealing with IH Executioners.
@Hesselhof
Basically, many of the dogmas suck and certain relics and stratagems work best with specific units. Therefore, mixing and matching Forge Worlds make sense.
--
Crazy idea: Cawlstar without Cawl.
Spoiler:
Mars Battalion Detachment - 945 Servitor Maniple (-1 CP)
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Mars Battalion Detachment - 620 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
It's a bit zany, but basically, you can spend 3 CP to give the Robots and both Destroyer units +1 to hit. Daedalosus gets them to +2 to hit. So you got all these BS4 units hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s.
You could put the Destroyers into one big unit, but then it's harder to hide them on turn one. They also can't maneuver separately and can get focused down more easily.
One huge concern is the lack of a counter-charger. I could bring Stygies Dragoons, but that might make the list more vulnerable to psychic powers and also lack the option to deep strike.
Thoughts? I am generally frustrated at the limited options we have for dealing with IH Executioners.
I am on vacation and did not have the chance yet to get some reading on IH capabilities. You mind telling me what they are upto with executioners and what not?
Most of the terror in my scene has been around IH Lev Dreads. Half damage then -1 damage means anything short of 5 damage does only 1 damage. Repair like 9 wounds a turn. Operate on double wounds’ profile. Make the dread a character with one strat (after making it your warlord) then give it a WLT trait with another, and now you have a dread that can consolidate 6” in any direction (ie fall back during your fight phase and be ready to shoot in its turn).
Just resilient nonsense beyond even DG levels, on a gun platform it’s annoying to ignore and doesn’t take up as much space in your list as a knight. Ouch.
Pomguo wrote: Most of the terror in my scene has been around IH Lev Dreads. Half damage then -1 damage means anything short of 5 damage does only 1 damage. Repair like 9 wounds a turn. Operate on double wounds’ profile. Make the dread a character with one strat (after making it your warlord) then give it a WLT trait with another, and now you have a dread that can consolidate 6” in any direction (ie fall back during your fight phase and be ready to shoot in its turn).
Just resilient nonsense beyond even DG levels, on a gun platform it’s annoying to ignore and doesn’t take up as much space in your list as a knight. Ouch.
I already got the feeling that cawl dakkastar has to reappear...
Sequencing While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved
The combo of those damage negation doesnt work that way if they arent somehow worded to happen at different points (auto regen would be a way to bypass this, but then of course you could kill before that kicks in i guess). Player shooting will always go "Ok, -1 first then half it. Partial values are always rounded up unless told otherwise, so 1.5 = 2 damage" Still an annoying combo as 3 damage = 1 damage and its massively difficult to just explode it in a couple shots, as 6 damage would become 3 (-1 = 5, half = 2.5 meaning 3 damage)
And the Ironstone relic can be held by some of the most durable HQs in the entire Space Marine codex.
Yeah. I keep trying to figure out how to handle these terrors, and it boils down to:
1) Dakkabots. Lots of Dakkabots.
2) Infantry. Lots of infantry. And transports too. Hide them everywhere. Spending all of your resources killing Thunderfire Cannons and hold on for dear life.
Problem with #1 is that it might not work against Tau; if they go first, they can delete the unit of their choice just about. Problem with #2 is likely that it won't work against Fists.
Suzuteo wrote: And the Ironstone relic can be held by some of the most durable HQs in the entire Space Marine codex.
Yeah. I keep trying to figure out how to handle these terrors, and it boils down to:
1) Dakkabots. Lots of Dakkabots.
2) Infantry. Lots of infantry. And transports too. Hide them everywhere. Spending all of your resources killing Thunderfire Cannons and hold on for dear life.
Problem with #1 is that it might not work against Tau; if they go first, they can delete the unit of their choice just about. Problem with #2 is likely that it won't work against Fists.
Don't know about that. Daedalosus, manipulus and the bot detachment helps a lot vs tau. We got more range plus durability. It's been a looooong time since tau killed my bots^^
But I don't think we need lots of dakkabots. Maybe just 2 to 3 actually. I will work on that.
Minimum 3 will leave an IH lev dred on 1 wound. But again like Suzuteo says, this isn’t reliable because we’re not in a samdbox where we always go first.
Just like against Tau, if they go first they can wipe robots before we can shoot. And Tau in particular are good at removing single targets. Would have to play the range game in deployment, but with a quick Kauyon their whole army is advancing and shooting everything first turn, so that may be tricky in some deployment styles.
Oh, and about determining damage:
“Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength? A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.”
So seems like for working out multiple simultaneous modifiers, you multiply/divide then add/subtract, according to previous FAQs. Meaning that 4 damage weapons do 1 damage, still.
One thing that is important to note is that Drills are actually really tall. Enough that two can easily block LOS for 4x Robots.
EDIT: I just realized there is a way to fit 3x4 Breachers in here. Though a part of my wonders if they're relevant in a meta that is increasingly focused on S5-7 weapons.
And one that uses a Stygies Distraction Carnifex:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 963 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord
Heavy Support - 773 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Mixed Battalion Detachment - 240
HQ - 120 1x Mars Tech-Priest Manipulus
1x Lucius Tech-Priest Enginseer
Going for this. I kicked 2 breachers so I can get another dakkabot. Might get rough with cp but it is what it is. Its 2004 pts cause BS still doesn't know how to handle a manipulus.
Kastelan Robots
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Onager Dunecrawler: Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler: Icarus Array
+ Dedicated Transport +
Skorpius Dunerider: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Dunerider: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++
Unfortunately all my local TOs side with the BS team in saying that the “including wargear” cost of the Manipulus means including any wargear, whether it’s 5 or 0. Like it gets the 5 one for free. I think that’s a crap stupid reading myself, and daft writing if intended that way, but we just have to wait and see, and hope your TO agrees with you.
@Hesselhof
Dragoons and Dunerider+Hoplites do different but complementary things.
Both have melee attacks, T6 3+ toughness, minus to hit, and can be infiltrated.
Dragoons have an extra -1 to hit. Their best role is counter-charging (standing back and attacking after the enemy has gotten stuck in), intercepting (moving out to fight before they reach your lines), screening (making big walls that the enemy has to get through), and also skirmishing (fighting small battles over objectives). They make very strong use of the Doctrina to essentially double their S8-9 attacks. They can also use the Dunestrider stratagem to move very deep behind enemy lines.
Dunerider+Hoplites can shoot; 12x S4 and 10x 12" S6 AP-1 shots is actually quite respectable, and you can expect to wipe T3 units quite easily. They can also fight, with Duneriders charging in to absorb Overwatch, block LOS (Duneriders are taller than Hoplites), and help trap units (anvil), and the Hoplites doing the actual damage (hammer). Hoplites are especially good at popping T6-7 vehicles with their S6-7 Arc attacks. In terms of role, they mostly screen and skirmish; you rarely want to seek to intercept or counter-charge, since you have to disembark before moving, and the act of disembarking makes the Hoplites slower and more vulnerable. As mentioned before, the combo does great against T3 profiles in shooting, so you can infiltrate, disembark, and move in while shooting with the Dunerider blocking LOS (remember that Hoplites can advance, Doctrina, and still hit on 2s in shooting; they cannot charge though, so again, more for skirmishing). They are also very strong walls; even if your opponent kills the Dunerider in fighting, he can't fight the Hoplites inside, which means he has to shoot the transports, which keeps your other T6-7 units safe. Duneriders can use the Cognis Overwatch ability to chew through charging infantry, and Hoplites are the best user of the Acquisition stratagem in our army; they get Stormshields (3++) in melee as well as +1A for a total of 31 during your opponent's turn. And you can do this again if you really, really need that objective (2++ and 41 attacks!).
A big blob of Breachers uses stratagems like Noospheric Mindlock, Enhanced Bionics, Infoslave Skull, and Acquisition more effectively. Furthermore, it absorbs hits better for repair/resurrection; remember that you can repair with one HQ, resurrect, then repair with a second HQ. Typically, you want to either run 3-5 Breachers or 9-12x Breachers. Anything in between is not as flexible as the former (especially for movement and hiding) but not as efficient as the latter.
Note that if you do a big blob, you need to bring ways to protect it from Doom/Jinx, which is one area I think Iago40k can improve on. You will run into Eldar eventually, and they love chewing up big units. It also is more vulnerable to Triptides, which has an excellent S6 gun.
That was a very informative post, Suzuteo.
I feel a bit dumb for not seeing those things myself and wondering why the heck everyone loves dragoons and i couldnt make them work... DUH!
If you have any more of those nuggets of wisdom... You usually only read "Dragoons are great" or "Breachers work well" and never get an explanation to WHY and what pieces are required to make them work.
Mars Spearhead because a Mars Battalion can only contain three Heavy Support. And you need 3x Grators in pretty much any competitive list because non-LOS shooting is essential to scoring Kill More or even Kill One at times, and people like hiding in ruins quite often. The fourth slot goes to 4x Robots, which are the only proactive solution to Iron Hands Executioners, and even then, it is not a sure thing. Furthermore, they are weak to armies that excel in killing single units, and they give up Gangbusters quite easily. Cawl so that I can use a Canticle for my non-Mars units, then reserve the second Canticle for Shroudpsalm for my Mars units. By default though, you should use Shroudpsalm for the entire army, as they make your units extraordinarily tough in the open (for their points, anyway).
Mixed Battalion for 5 CP and a useful toolkit. Graia Rangers to stand around your gunline to Abhor Psychic spells on a 4+; 75% chance with a command reroll. Lucius Enginseer so that you can take the teleport relic. This relic is a free VP or even two for missions like Ground Control, Recon, and Old School's Linebreaker, not to mention the Crucible of Champions scenario. I put the Mars Manipulus here because he mostly is just there to increase the threat radius of the gunline. He doesn't need the Shroudpsalm that much.
Stygies for another 5 CP. You always take Stygies pure for the -1 to hit. Daedalosus is here because you don't need two Enginseers; you don't even need one, to be honest; he's a tax. Vanguard are here because they need to work with the Hoplites; in some situations, you can deploy a Hoplite unit as a counter-charger or objective holder inside a ruin, then put some Vanguard into the second transport. Remember, you can run and still shoot with Vanguard and Hoplites both, since they have got Assault weapons. Dragoons because I'm already giving up Gangbusters with another must-kill unit (Robots). And it's relatively hard to score BGH if Grators are in the mix.
You typically will want to spend 1-3 CP right away to infiltrate the Dragoons and Duneriders with infantry embarked. The goal is to force the enemy to shoot at them instead of your Martian firebase. Dragoons have a threat radius of 31" on turn one; Duneriders don't need to disembark on the first turn, but provide fire support (with the Grators and Robots, you can remove a ton of chaff) and absorb Overwatch. Parking the Duneriders on top of objectives also works well.
Questions for me:
1) Do I want three Battalions or perhaps make the Stygies unit a Vanguard detachment? I can move the Robots into the Mixed Battalion, as they rely primarily on their invulnerable save in most matchups.
2) Do I want to swap the Manipulus with the Enginseer in the Stygies unit? He actually can do quite a lot of good moving the assault elements down the board. However, 42" guns are great for Robots and Grators.
@Suzuteo
You mention charging the transport into heavier guns and having the Hoplites try for a charge if it blows up - but the second page of the Big Rule Book’s FAQ/Errata says: “Units cannot declare a charge during the same turn that they disembarked from a destroyed transport.”
This was added to stop Khorne shenanigans that started popping up last year where a transport would deliberately overcharge plasma to let zerkers disembark and charge after it had moved.
Pomguo wrote: @Suzuteo
You mention charging the transport into heavier guns and having the Hoplites try for a charge if it blows up - but the second page of the Big Rule Book’s FAQ/Errata says: “Units cannot declare a charge during the same turn that they disembarked from a destroyed transport.”
This was added to stop Khorne shenanigans that started popping up last year where a transport would deliberately overcharge plasma to let zerkers disembark and charge after it had moved.
You disembark, charge with the transport and then with hoplits. The FAQ is about a transport that charges WHILE a unit is still embarked. This unit cannot charge if the transport gets blown apart during the charge.
Great job on the last couple of posts suzuteo.
Atm I think we (well maybe just me) need bots, snipers, cawl, gyratory, dragoons and hoplits. I have to get rid of my beloved breachers I think. Cp will be a problem.
Firebase plus melee push.
Edit:
Maybe this
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++
Kastelan Robots
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++
@Pomguo
Oh wow. I never caught that. Ah well, it's a weird edge case anyway. Never charged something and had my fully loaded transport outright killed yet.
Yeah. Robots + Breachers or Destroyers is another avenue that I am considering; it's the list a few pages back that only gives up Gangbusters. I only have got 15 of them though. And 6 are fixed as Destroyers. Sigh...
EDIT: Seems like this is a pre-IHRTT? Still, probably not too far off from what everyone is eventually going to be running. And Ultramarines may prove to be just as popular as IH.
Okay, I had a lot of fun making this list. Based it on that Gigabites list. Combines my love of Ryzaphrons, Mars Dakkabots, and Stygies Dragoon bombs all into one:
Hm... the last day got me thinking how I might grossly over- and undervalue some stratagems available.
I think I have some pretty large misconceptions/failure to understand what makes what actually good... and some are pretty obvious (dragoons + doctrina e.g.).
Lemme go over them quickly and you guys can tell me where I really feth up in my evaluation
Spoiler:
Gloria Mechanicus:
Never used before. 2 CP is expensive and while switching from reroll 1's to Mortal Wounds or +1S seems like a good trade in theory, in reality I either have not enough melee in combat to justifiy the cost or I simply forget that it is a thing.
Plus 2 CP sounds like I can get more use out of a Wrath of Mars or Elimination Volley...
Divine Chorus:
Pretty sure I've never used it.
I think I've never used it. Usually I play either Stygies or Mars; in case of the latter I can get Shroudpsalm reliably anyway, in the former I tend to try and close to melee anyway. Is it actually worth the 2 CP out of the 13 or so you usually have to use?
Zealous Congregation:
Now with a Dunerider, I might get the Priests into combat once. At that cost, I presume it is mostly only good enough on a pretty large blob of Priests and only if it gives me a decisive victory, like taking out a Knight before it can stomp back.
Elimination Volley:
I also shy away a bit from this. Breachers damage output is too weak for my tastes and with Cawl or now Daedalosus the Bots can get a good hitratio anyway.
Binharic Override:
I pretty almost always reserve a CP for this, usually to break the legs of the Bots on T1, save the points in the Datasmith and try and alphastrike something important with WoM.
Archeotech Specialists:
Since the relics suck that Mars and to some extend Stygies get... I dont see a need for this.
Scryerskull:
We dont use these mission types where this even might come into play.
Dataspike:
When my caracters are engaging an enemy vehicle, something has went terribly wrong. Also seems very weak unless it could knock down the vehicle another bracket or deal the killing blow.
Cognis Overwatch:
Since I dont run any laschickens yet, I find hardly any use for this stratagem. Hitting with stubbers on overwatch.. unlikely to do anything and seems like a waste of CP.
Conqueror Doctrina:
This is the eye opener. I totally underrated this.... I simply did not connect the exploding 6's on the Dragoons and this. I also just realised this works for Infiltrators as well.
Hot damn I feel dumb now!
Protector Doctrina:
]I am aware of the immunity it gives to Plasma Vanguard, but I mostly used it to actually make my Onagers HIT something with the Neutron Lasers/Icarus Array.
Small brother of the first with not as many uses?
Benevolence of the Omnissiah:
Used this a few times to soften a Smite. Usually I wont bother unless the opponent has its sight on a specific model he really wants gone and I want to make his life as hard as possible.
Tech-Adept:
See above, but only if the model survived.
Machine Spirit Resurgent:
Basically one more turn of shooting at max efficiency for a model. Probably useful on an Onager or Knight, mostly useless though because of focus fire.
Rage of the Machines:
Seems bad - only 1 vehicle, Onagers and Dunerider variants ignore the penalty anyway and a chicken is not worth the CP. If it was a whole unit... maybe.
Dunestriders:
[spoiler]Used a few times, usually pass on it though. I either want my Chickens to be > 12" away or very, very close. But it can come in handy to catch something, although it means no charges and therefore basically takes them out of the equation for an entire turn.
Aquisition at any cost:
Something I probably underuse criminally as well, but mostly due to the fact that I play wrong. Big surprise Seems to be best when either attacking or defending an objective and I'm not aggressive enough for that. I need to shove more units in Duneriders into the enemy's face, then it seems worth it. But without the added attack, 2 CP seems too expensive.
Infoslave skull:
Useful if things like Scions drop down. Can take the sting out of the following shooting.
Machine Spirit's Revenge:
I too often forget about this. Dealing free mortal wounds with the chickens/duneriders to units that bothered it - almost always a good idea if the vehicle died in CC.
Suzuteo wrote: Gee. You mean people are supposed to talk about tactics in this forum?
Havent been in here in a while as am working on a SM army, but I am glad to see it is actually talk about Ad Mech tactics instead of being an IG thread.
Thairne wrote: Hm... the last day got me thinking how I might grossly over- and undervalue some stratagems available.
I think I have some pretty large misconceptions/failure to understand what makes what actually good... and some are pretty obvious (dragoons + doctrina e.g.).
Lemme go over them quickly and you guys can tell me where I really feth up in my evaluation
Spoiler:
Gloria Mechanicus:
Never used before. 2 CP is expensive and while switching from reroll 1's to Mortal Wounds or +1S seems like a good trade in theory, in reality I either have not enough melee in combat to justifiy the cost or I simply forget that it is a thing.
Plus 2 CP sounds like I can get more use out of a Wrath of Mars or Elimination Volley...
Divine Chorus:
Pretty sure I've never used it.
I think I've never used it. Usually I play either Stygies or Mars; in case of the latter I can get Shroudpsalm reliably anyway, in the former I tend to try and close to melee anyway. Is it actually worth the 2 CP out of the 13 or so you usually have to use?
Zealous Congregation:
Now with a Dunerider, I might get the Priests into combat once. At that cost, I presume it is mostly only good enough on a pretty large blob of Priests and only if it gives me a decisive victory, like taking out a Knight before it can stomp back.
Elimination Volley:
I also shy away a bit from this. Breachers damage output is too weak for my tastes and with Cawl or now Daedalosus the Bots can get a good hitratio anyway.
Binharic Override:
I pretty almost always reserve a CP for this, usually to break the legs of the Bots on T1, save the points in the Datasmith and try and alphastrike something important with WoM.
Archeotech Specialists:
Since the relics suck that Mars and to some extend Stygies get... I dont see a need for this.
Scryerskull:
We dont use these mission types where this even might come into play.
Dataspike:
When my caracters are engaging an enemy vehicle, something has went terribly wrong. Also seems very weak unless it could knock down the vehicle another bracket or deal the killing blow.
Cognis Overwatch:
Since I dont run any laschickens yet, I find hardly any use for this stratagem. Hitting with stubbers on overwatch.. unlikely to do anything and seems like a waste of CP.
Conqueror Doctrina:
This is the eye opener. I totally underrated this.... I simply did not connect the exploding 6's on the Dragoons and this. I also just realised this works for Infiltrators as well.
Hot damn I feel dumb now!
Protector Doctrina:
]I am aware of the immunity it gives to Plasma Vanguard, but I mostly used it to actually make my Onagers HIT something with the Neutron Lasers/Icarus Array.
Small brother of the first with not as many uses?
Benevolence of the Omnissiah:
Used this a few times to soften a Smite. Usually I wont bother unless the opponent has its sight on a specific model he really wants gone and I want to make his life as hard as possible.
Tech-Adept:
See above, but only if the model survived.
Machine Spirit Resurgent:
Basically one more turn of shooting at max efficiency for a model. Probably useful on an Onager or Knight, mostly useless though because of focus fire.
Rage of the Machines:
Seems bad - only 1 vehicle, Onagers and Dunerider variants ignore the penalty anyway and a chicken is not worth the CP. If it was a whole unit... maybe.
Dunestriders:
[spoiler]Used a few times, usually pass on it though. I either want my Chickens to be > 12" away or very, very close. But it can come in handy to catch something, although it means no charges and therefore basically takes them out of the equation for an entire turn.
Aquisition at any cost:
Something I probably underuse criminally as well, but mostly due to the fact that I play wrong. Big surprise Seems to be best when either attacking or defending an objective and I'm not aggressive enough for that. I need to shove more units in Duneriders into the enemy's face, then it seems worth it. But without the added attack, 2 CP seems too expensive.
Infoslave skull:
Useful if things like Scions drop down. Can take the sting out of the following shooting.
Machine Spirit's Revenge:
I too often forget about this. Dealing free mortal wounds with the chickens/duneriders to units that bothered it - almost always a good idea if the vehicle died in CC.
This might happen when you tend to spend your time on gw-whineworld, where you cannot learn anything. Stick to this thread or join the German competitive community over here https://discord.gg/AFrQ6B
@suzuteo what you think about the last list of mine? If I had the points I'd throw out the Servitors for peltasts though :-D
@Hesselhoff the last well performing lists (e.g. mine or engelshäubchens) aren't worth that much anymore when IH come and get us
GW whineworld ^^ sad but true.... you know my thread there, no response etc .. this thread is brilliant, learnd so much in this short time here, thx =)
Very sad with your lists, liked both :(
Btw: can i use the cybernetica cohort gem which makes heavy to assault, with binary override? So that they are assault 18 shots per bot for one turn?
Thairne wrote: Hm... the last day got me thinking how I might grossly over- and undervalue some stratagems available.
I think I have some pretty large misconceptions/failure to understand what makes what actually good... and some are pretty obvious (dragoons + doctrina e.g.).
Lemme go over them quickly and you guys can tell me where I really feth up in my evaluation
Spoiler:
Gloria Mechanicus: Never used before. 2 CP is expensive and while switching from reroll 1's to Mortal Wounds or +1S seems like a good trade in theory, in reality I either have not enough melee in combat to justifiy the cost or I simply forget that it is a thing. Plus 2 CP sounds like I can get more use out of a Wrath of Mars or Elimination Volley...
Divine Chorus: Pretty sure I've never used it. I think I've never used it. Usually I play either Stygies or Mars; in case of the latter I can get Shroudpsalm reliably anyway, in the former I tend to try and close to melee anyway. Is it actually worth the 2 CP out of the 13 or so you usually have to use?
Zealous Congregation: Now with a Dunerider, I might get the Priests into combat once. At that cost, I presume it is mostly only good enough on a pretty large blob of Priests and only if it gives me a decisive victory, like taking out a Knight before it can stomp back.
Elimination Volley: I also shy away a bit from this. Breachers damage output is too weak for my tastes and with Cawl or now Daedalosus the Bots can get a good hitratio anyway.
Binharic Override: I pretty almost always reserve a CP for this, usually to break the legs of the Bots on T1, save the points in the Datasmith and try and alphastrike something important with WoM.
Archeotech Specialists: Since the relics suck that Mars and to some extend Stygies get... I dont see a need for this.
Scryerskull: We dont use these mission types where this even might come into play.
Dataspike: When my caracters are engaging an enemy vehicle, something has went terribly wrong. Also seems very weak unless it could knock down the vehicle another bracket or deal the killing blow.
Cognis Overwatch: Since I dont run any laschickens yet, I find hardly any use for this stratagem. Hitting with stubbers on overwatch.. unlikely to do anything and seems like a waste of CP.
Conqueror Doctrina: This is the eye opener. I totally underrated this.... I simply did not connect the exploding 6's on the Dragoons and this. I also just realised this works for Infiltrators as well. Hot damn I feel dumb now!
Protector Doctrina: ]I am aware of the immunity it gives to Plasma Vanguard, but I mostly used it to actually make my Onagers HIT something with the Neutron Lasers/Icarus Array. Small brother of the first with not as many uses?
Benevolence of the Omnissiah: Used this a few times to soften a Smite. Usually I wont bother unless the opponent has its sight on a specific model he really wants gone and I want to make his life as hard as possible.
Tech-Adept: See above, but only if the model survived. Machine Spirit Resurgent: Basically one more turn of shooting at max efficiency for a model. Probably useful on an Onager or Knight, mostly useless though because of focus fire.
Rage of the Machines: Seems bad - only 1 vehicle, Onagers and Dunerider variants ignore the penalty anyway and a chicken is not worth the CP. If it was a whole unit... maybe.
Dunestriders: [spoiler]Used a few times, usually pass on it though. I either want my Chickens to be > 12" away or very, very close. But it can come in handy to catch something, although it means no charges and therefore basically takes them out of the equation for an entire turn.
Aquisition at any cost: Something I probably underuse criminally as well, but mostly due to the fact that I play wrong. Big surprise Seems to be best when either attacking or defending an objective and I'm not aggressive enough for that. I need to shove more units in Duneriders into the enemy's face, then it seems worth it. But without the added attack, 2 CP seems too expensive.
Infoslave skull: Useful if things like Scions drop down. Can take the sting out of the following shooting.
Machine Spirit's Revenge: I too often forget about this. Dealing free mortal wounds with the chickens/duneriders to units that bothered it - almost always a good idea if the vehicle died in CC.
Agree with most of this, however...
Zealous Congregation: "charge" two units wipe the first then consolidate into and fight/kill the second (note you still need to declare a charge on both I think?)
Elimination Volley: before Dr. D it was still useful for our bots, now possibly still useful turn 1 due to the range on Dr.D's buff. personally moved away from robots so it does not see as much play with me now (I have noospheric mindlock instead on my kataphrons/Dr.D)
Cognis Overwatch: excellent for a large unit of chickens (but as you say you have none at the moment), also on a Skorpius hitting 9 stubber shots can take out one or two of the charging unit which might be enough for your skorpius to survive and/or help make the skorpius points back e.g. a unit of vanguad veterans with TH/SS will get a bit of a shock (especially if they have already lost some of their unit)...
Protector Doctrina: very good on the chickens - you can advance with a unit (and even use Dunestriders) and still hit on 3+ which makes for some awesome re-deploy shenanigans - or you could send a unit forward to be able to shoot around a large LoS blocking piece of terrain... or a decent boost vs a negative to hit unit like aliatoc eldar.
Rage of the Machines: if you run a brigade and therefore want single units of chickens they can advance and still shoot normally - makes a good alternative to Protector Doctrina - it helps make a gunline mobile. also if you need to move your bots - one of them can still fire normally instead of on 5+.
Dunestriders: push a unit of chickens up for linebreaker and/or combo with Protector Doctrina as above and keep your firepower on ironstriders. agree that it can be less useful on Dragoons unless you really want that distraction carnifex...
Aquisition at any cost: Kataphrons are infantry too - if you have a big blob of Plasmaphrons (with enhanced bionics for 5++) this and shroudspalm it can be very helpful in keeping them alive turn one until you shoot back if needed...
Infoslave skull: I use it more as a scare tactic/mind games - mention it with kataphrons to my opponent and let them know what it does to his deep striking units - he will not place any unit near your unit of 9 plasmaphrons - i guarantee it...
Hesselhof wrote: GW whineworld ^^ sad but true.... you know my thread there, no response etc .. this thread is brilliant, learnd so much in this short time here, thx =)
Very sad with your lists, liked both :(
Btw: can i use the cybernetica cohort gem which makes heavy to assault, with binary override? So that they are assault 18 shots per bot for one turn?
Yes you can. You use the strafing run stratagem in your movement phase and binharic override at the start of your shooting phase.be aware though: while you can override at the start of ANY phase, In that specific circumstance a vect could break your back ;-)
Join the discord group then, lots and lots of people to talk to.
This is probably my current list (with models that I currently own), note I do not tend to play ITC missions so not worrying about things like gangbusters/kill more etc.
Uhh nice, ya the profit is just for one turn wit assault 18 per bot but moving and shoot without penalty is nice^^ so my thought was right that aegis must be only active to activate the gem and not active the whole turn, nice.
But is the binary override not at the end of any phase?
Iam already at discord with nickname necrow^^ was already in use here that name
Hesselhof wrote: Uhh nice, ya the profit is just for one turn wit assault 18 per bot but moving and shoot without penalty is nice^^ so my thought was right that aegis must be only active to activate the gem and not active the whole turn, nice.
But is the binary override not at the end of any phase?
Iam already at discord with nickname necrow^^ was already in use here that name
end of the psychic phase (such as it is for Admech...)
Kastelan Robots [18 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Suzuteo wrote: @Pomguo
Oh wow. I never caught that. Ah well, it's a weird edge case anyway. Never charged something and had my fully loaded transport outright killed yet.
Edited and removed the offending passage.
More impact from that faq for stuff like kamikaze berserker rhino. Move rhino up, try to blow up with combi plasma, charge with berserkers. Longer reach with berserkers that way
I gues the new to go would be, like Iago said, Mars Bots, Cawl, maybe arkebuses and destroyers^^
But what to do against eldar flyers?
Ryzaphrons kill Eldar flyers. Daedalosus + Noospheric Mindlock means +2 to hit. So they usually hit on 4s with RR1, wound on 2s, and deal 2 damage each hit if you don't overcharge, 3 if you do. 6 Ryzaphrons to kill reliably a Hemlock if you don't overcharge; 4 if you do.
Dakkabots really hurt Eldar flyers quite a bit as well. I would especially focus on Venoms and bikers with their guns. Each single rooted Kastelan with Wrath of Mars kills one Venom even at BS4; hits on 5s, wounds on 3s.
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Kastelan Robots
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . . . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++
Skorpius Disintegrator: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Missing the snipers which I don't like but all in all I think this could work. 20 points for Servitors though.
Some quick improvements:
-Do Mars Battalion (Cawl, Manip, Rangers, Dakkabots), Mars Spearhead (Enginseer, 3x Grators), Stygies Battalion (Daeda, Enginseer, Dragoons, Hoplites, Duneriders) to get rid of the Servitors
-Move the Daedalosus to the Stygies unit. Stygies Enginseers are pretty useless without Drills to put them in. Mars Enginseers can repair in a pinch and also can take the +1S Canticle for Mars in desperate circumstances to hit really hard with the Servo-Arm.
-I would consider dropping one shield on the Hoplites for EDT. It lets you disembark, advance with the Dunerider blocking LOS from your opponent, and then shoot. In matchups where you need to clear T3 enemies, this can be important, especially in objective scoring games against opponents like Guard or Eldar. Late game, having the morale reroll is also really nice.
@Thairne
Gloria Mechanicus and Divine Chorus are useful if you don't have Cawl.
Archaeotech Specialists is good if you normally take Mask but have a Lucius Enginseer you want to give the Solar Flare to too.
I have used Dataspike before against Disco Lords.
Doctrinas are also good to cancel out flyer minus to hit.
Dunestriders is good to suddenly capture objectives your opponent thought was out of reach, score Linebreaker, or the usual trick to advance behind LOS blocking terrain inside your opponent's deployment for a charge the next turn.
Acquisition is cheap, considering it's basically paying 2 CP to cut casualties to your Kataphrons or Hoplites by 25-33% and to potentially score VP in the process. Remember that you can use it as many times as you want on as many different units as you'd like.
Machine Spirit's Revenge can be hilariously good for 1 CP.
Can you use Acquisition more than once at a time because it happens “at the end of your turn” and so not in a phase (bypassing the usual “once per phase” strat restriction)? Hadn’t heard that.
Can you use Acquisition more than once at a time because it happens “at the end of your turn” and so not in a phase (bypassing the usual “once per phase” strat restriction)? Hadn’t heard that.
Yes you can use it more than once. I am still on the fence why you could use it more than once on the same unit though.
Can you use Acquisition more than once at a time because it happens “at the end of your turn” and so not in a phase (bypassing the usual “once per phase” strat restriction)? Hadn’t heard that.
Yes you can use it more than once. I am still on the fence why you could use it more than once on the same unit though.
Can you use Acquisition more than once at a time because it happens “at the end of your turn” and so not in a phase (bypassing the usual “once per phase” strat restriction)? Hadn’t heard that.
Yes you can use it more than once. I am still on the fence why you could use it more than once on the same unit though.
Been trying to dig up but damn GW doesn't make it easy to determine of multiples of same rule are cumulative or not. Closest I have so far found in FAQ is:
Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical
aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range
Can you use Acquisition more than once at a time because it happens “at the end of your turn” and so not in a phase (bypassing the usual “once per phase” strat restriction)? Hadn’t heard that.
Yes you can use it more than once. I am still on the fence why you could use it more than once on the same unit though.
Been trying to dig up but damn GW doesn't make it easy to determine of multiples of same rule are cumulative or not. Closest I have so far found in FAQ is:
Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical
aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range
Stratagems aren't auras.
There is nothing stating that you cannot use a stratagem on the same unit more than once in a turn. There is a rule stating you cannot use a stratagem more than once per phase, but there is also an FAQ stating that this rule does not apply at the beginning or end of turns.
But principle applies. What is wording on acquisition? If it's "within x" of y" then effect is applied when you are within y. But there's no multiplication of effect. You are within x" only once.
I put this question to the national tourney group and the debate has been FURIOUS. The TO agrees with Suzuteo’s interpretation but very few players do, haha. They think End of Turn means the End of the Morale Phase, since that is the last phase in the turn. Has GW said anywhere that a blank, phaseless space exists between turns? I only found the FAQ answer saying that Deployment is not a phase.
If said space exists, then does that mean that “at the start of your turn” strats are also outside of a phase? So we can make every vehicle act at top damage bracket, and Tau can heal as many D3 wounds as they have CP to afford?
Strategic Discipline
The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round'.
This clearly indicates that end of turn and round fall outside of phases and thus, the supposition that the end of the turn or round is the end of the Morale phase is not supported by RAW.
And concerning starts of the turn, yes. For example, you can use the Stygies stratagem Clandestine Infiltration on as many units as you would like, as many times as you would like. Though past the first infiltration, it would not benefit a unit to be infiltrated again. This is in contrast to something like Forlorn Fury in the Blood Angels codex.
RIP stacking Acquisition at Any Cost and also RIP mortal wounds from Wrath of Mars slipping past Savior Protocols. New September FAQ is out btw. First one is in ours, second one is in the Tau FAQ
Strategic Discipline
The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round'.
This clearly indicates that end of turn and round fall outside of phases and thus, the supposition that the end of the turn or round is the end of the Morale phase is not supported by RAW.
And concerning starts of the turn, yes. For example, you can use the Stygies stratagem Clandestine Infiltration on as many units as you would like, as many times as you would like. Though past the first infiltration, it would not benefit a unit to be infiltrated again. This is in contrast to something like Forlorn Fury in the Blood Angels codex.
New update - only once per turn now for Acquisition at any Cost
More concerned about the Saviour Protocols side-buffs:
Page 90, 97, 98, 99, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 111, 112,
113, 114 and 116 – Saviour Protocols
Change this ability to read: ‘When resolving an attack made against a <Sept> Infantry or <Sept> Battlesuit unit whilst that unit is within 3" of a friendly <Sept> Drones unit, if the wound roll is successful, you can roll one D6; on a 2+ that Drones unit suffers 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends.’
Q: If an attack inflicts mortal wounds on the target, and the attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result of the Saviour Protocols ability, what happens to those mortal wounds inflicted?
A: They are cancelled. All damage and mortal wounds inflicted as the result of that attack is reduced to the mortal wound inflicted by the Saviour Protocols ability on that Drones unit.
ry pick the 6s to SP.
Spoiler:
Q: If an attack inflicts a rules effect on a target unit (e.g. Tremor Shells in Codex Space Marines), and that attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result of the Saviour Protocols ability, which unit is the rules effect applied to?
A: The Drones unit.
I guess Saviour Protocols got buffed because now it just ends the entire attack sequence. But there is one HUGE problem: If this applies to stratagems, WE CAN NO LONGER SPEED ROLL WRATH OF MARS.
EDIT: May have overreacted. It seems in that case, you would have to stop and finish all wound rolls. Then take the 6s and try to SP for those. Then take the non-6s and try to SP for those. Each time, it cannot be larger than the smallest Drone unit.
EDIT: Sorry, posted the wrong FAQ ruling at the end of those quote blocks.
Holy gak that's actually huge Suzuteo, the best you could realistically do is let Savior Protocols activate and batch-roll the wounds in the number of however many Savior drones are remaining in the unit. This kills the AdMech player chess clock, holy gak.
they need to just release a generic faq about that and "mortal damage in addition to damage"
Orks with grot shields have the same problem and the ruling on it is so dang fuzzy it always sparks arguments.
