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In my experience, Fulgurites aren't very good counter-chargers. They are much more an assault threat that you send out to pressure your opponent. You get them out to an objective with a Drill, kill a unit along the way, then just camp the Fulgurites behind the brick. They're almost impossible to remove.

Anyhow, it is very hard for me to fit Dragoons in without cutting into the gunline. The big problem is that Battalions only have 3 Heavy Support slots, so I am sort of forced to choose between a Grator or Breachers. Or drop the mixed detachment entirely.

Here is a list that drops the Breachers and the mixed detachment in favor of the traditional AdMech hammer and anvil:

Not sure what to do with the last 50 points. If money were no object, I would cut the Priest and Drills for 2x Dunerider and 2x10 Hoplites, which is a popular choice these days.

Here's hoping Impulsors are affordable enough for conversion?

EDIT: Apparently, all my Space Marine-playing friends are expecting $65+ for Impulsors... so I am thinking of just converting some Grators out of some backward Rhinos. They have the exact same width as a Dunerider, but need a bit of length to match the profile.

Here's a Reddit thread with a size comparison:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusMechanicus/comments/c9eeix/quick_size_comparison_between_dunerider_and_rhino/

I just bought myself a Rhino, so I am going to look into converting Grators. I hope to make three and do something like this:

Hoplites do seem to perform really well as a jack-of-all-trades. Put them inside a Skorpius to prevent them from getting shot off the table too easily and pair them with Vanguard. They can do anti-horde and also do quite a number on T5 battlesuits and bikes. They can also be thrown onto vehicles to buy your Dakkabots more time for shooting. They also seem perfect for Daedalosus, which brings them to BS2; Omniscient Mask on a Lucius Enginseer if you need to fight off assault, Solar Flare if you need him to move behind enemy lines.

Anyhow, if they perform well-enough, maybe I might just go crazy and run a Vanguard with 3x10 Hoplite and 3x Skorpius. Just call it a day for my screening needs. (Probably not. The Dragoons are still really good.)

 Suzuteo wrote:
...Omniscient Mask on a Lucius Enginseer if you need to fight off assault, Solar Flare if you need him to move behind enemy lines...

That's a really good idea. I'm stealing that.

 Suzuteo wrote:
In my experience, Fulgurites aren't very good counter-chargers. They are much more an assault threat that you send out to pressure your opponent. You get them out to an objective with a Drill, kill a unit along the way, then just camp the Fulgurites behind the brick. They're almost impossible to remove.

2x10 Fulgurites in Duneriders have been a fantastic counter for my Ryzaphron list. They cleared Orks and GS quite efficiently, performing as a carnifex afterwards. With a Prime Hermeticon Manipulus they are pretty much a decent all rounder, since Dunerider dropped.

Anyhow, it is very hard for me to fit Dragoons in without cutting into the gunline. The big problem is that Battalions only have 3 Heavy Support slots, so I am sort of forced to choose between a Grator or Breachers. Or drop the mixed detachment entirely.
)

I'd take a few anyway. Breachers are tough, but the few attacks they have and WS4+ wont let you cut through hordes efficiently enough IMO. If you want only cheap anti horde anti charge unit then maybeeee... Rustst... Ekhem I mean Corpuscarii? I had some success with a big blob of 20 sitting behind my Breachers to wipe the Boyz and orkish Bikers squad in a counter move. They will benefit a lot from Dr D. And are definitely cheaper than Dragoons

 Suzuteo wrote:

Spoiler:

Mars Spearhead Detachment - 963
Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)

HQ - 190
1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord

Heavy Support - 773
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon

Mixed Battalion Detachment - 220

HQ - 115
1x Mars Tech-Priest Manipulus
1x Lucius Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 105
5x Graia Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Graia Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Graia Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 808

HQ - 80
1x Daedalosus
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 120
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine

Elite - 190
10x Secutarii Hoplite - 10x Mag-Inverter Shield, 1x Enhanced Data-tether
10x Secutarii Hoplite - 10x Mag-Inverter Shield, 1x Enhanced Data-tether

Transport - 146
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider

Fast Attack - 272
4x Sydonian Dragoon - 4x Taser Lance

Total: 1991 points
13 CP

Hoplites do seem to perform really well as a jack-of-all-trades. Put them inside a Skorpius to prevent them from getting shot off the table too easily and pair them with Vanguard. They can do anti-horde and also do quite a number on T5 battlesuits and bikes. They can also be thrown onto vehicles to buy your Dakkabots more time for shooting. They also seem perfect for Daedalosus, which brings them to BS2; Omniscient Mask on a Lucius Enginseer if you need to fight off assault, Solar Flare if you need him to move behind enemy lines.

Anyhow, if they perform well-enough, maybe I might just go crazy and run a Vanguard with 3x10 Hoplite and 3x Skorpius. Just call it a day for my screening needs. (Probably not. The Dragoons are still really good.)

Love the list but I am sensing some screening issues without any breachers and/or Dunecrawlers, especially against GSC and new Space Marines. Since I am not sold on Dakkastelans atm this will be my wiggle room I am also not sure about a Cawl list per se since I have the feeling we need styiges -1 to hit for the 5 billion SPace marin armies that will resurface in the near future. Snipers will help out a great deal as well I think.
still, great base for a list, ty!

dadamowsky wrote:2x10 Fulgurites in Duneriders have been a fantastic counter for my Ryzaphron list. They cleared Orks and GS quite efficiently, performing as a carnifex afterwards. With a Prime Hermeticon Manipulus they are pretty much a decent all rounder, since Dunerider dropped.

Right, but the big problem with Fulgurites is that they are very expensive for their durability. If you don't kill what you are attacking, your Fulgurites are super dead the next turn. Before the end of the Fight phase, in fact, if what you are fighting is good at fighting. Furthermore, they cannot take a charge; they have to stay in the transport and force the opponent to kill that transport, then stop the fight by being untargetable. But virtually any unit can do that, even Vanguard.

In my opinion, Fulgurites perform best when you shove them into your opponent's face and kill something. It is incredibly hard for the opponent to deploy forward if they know that that Scout unit is going to feed unkillable Fulgurites.

Ryzaphrons are super good with Daedalosus. Hit on 2s, wound on 2s for everything <T8, flat D3?! Only one hitch: they have a pretty bad matchup against Tau. Savior Protocols essentially reduce your plasma to D1 on a 2+ roll.

dadamowsky wrote:I'd take a few anyway. Breachers are tough, but the few attacks they have and WS4+ wont let you cut through hordes efficiently enough IMO. If you want only cheap anti horde anti charge unit then maybeeee... Rustst... Ekhem I mean Corpuscarii? I had some success with a big blob of 20 sitting behind my Breachers to wipe the Boyz and orkish Bikers squad in a counter move. They will benefit a lot from Dr D. And are definitely cheaper than Dragoons

Breachers can take a hit, but yeah, their fighting is below average at best against anything but vehicles; few vehicles are going to charge into you. I like Corpuscarii as deep strikers, but they suffer from the poor durability problem as well.

Iago40k wrote:
Love the list but I am sensing some screening issues without any breachers and/or Dunecrawlers, especially against GSC and new Space Marines. Since I am not sold on Dakkastelans atm this will be my wiggle room I am also not sure about a Cawl list per se since I have the feeling we need styiges -1 to hit for the 5 billion SPace marin armies that will resurface in the near future. Snipers will help out a great deal as well I think.
still, great base for a list, ty!

Well, if you don't want Dakkabots:



You can also drop a Crawler, Vanguard unit, and the Enhanced Data-tethers for 9x Infiltrator; the Mars Spearhead becomes a Vanguard.

But I don't think these lists will have screening issues with Hoplites, Duneriders, and Dragoons. I like Dakkabots because they are good against everything. The only limitation is LOS-blocking terrain, but typically speaking, any terrain where Dakkabots are absolutely useless is also terrain where most LOS shooting is weak. At that point, you might as well never root your Dakkabots and have them act as fire support for your melee.>

dadamowsky wrote:

I'd take a few anyway. Breachers are tough, but the few attacks they have and WS4+ wont let you cut through hordes efficiently enough IMO. If you want only cheap anti horde anti charge unit then maybeeee... Rustst... Ekhem I mean Corpuscarii? I had some success with a big blob of 20 sitting behind my Breachers to wipe the Boyz and orkish Bikers squad in a counter move. They will benefit a lot from Dr D. And are definitely cheaper than Dragoons

Breachers with hydraulic claws and a prime hermeticon WL is super good though. Personally I think if you are going breacher heavy you need Prime Hermeticon and some range rerolls like cawl or a dominus and a manipulus. Daedalosus as well. otherwise the dudes are barely a threat. BUT: All of our list have a Daedalosus, Manipulus and a TPD or Cawl so you should be good to go^^

Breachers definitely can be buffed to a frightening degree. They can also essentially be made immortal with repair, resurrection, and Acquisition.

That being said, Hoplites are surprisingly efficient for their points. They've always had two problems though: durability from shooting and mobility. These dirt cheap, borderline OP transports solve both of the problems, and I can see why running a pair is popular now. The only real edge that Breachers have is their anti-vehicle shooting, Troop slot, and objective secured.

Dunerider + 10x Hoplite
+ M12"; both can advance and shoot
+ WS3+ (RRF w/ Mask) 21x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
+ Benefits more from Acquisition
+ Hoplites cannot be charged while embarked
+ More bodies
= T6 W12 3+ (usu. -1 to hit) then 10x T3 W1 4+/5++ (4++ fighting, reflects mortals)
= More vulnerable to morale; can reroll morale
= Dunerider gets dogmas and FW benefits; Hoplites lack FW (useful in list-building)
- BS3+ (sometimes RR1) 12x 36" S4 D1 + 10x 12" S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)

6 Breachers
+ BS4+ (usu RRAll) 12x 36" S6 AP-2 DD3 (D6 vs. vehicles)
+ Larger base size, objective secured
+ Can be resurrected
+ Get dogmas and FW benefits
= 6x T5 W3 3+/6++ (5++ w/ strat)
- M6"; can only advance 3", cannot shoot
- WS4+ (RRF w/ WLT) 18x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)

 Suzuteo wrote:
Breachers definitely can be buffed to a frightening degree. They can also essentially be made immortal with repair, resurrection, and Acquisition.

That being said, Hoplites are surprisingly efficient for their points. They've always had two problems though: durability from shooting and mobility. These dirt cheap, borderline OP transports solve both of the problems, and I can see why running a pair is popular now. The only real edge that Breachers have is their anti-vehicle shooting.

Dunerider + 10x Hoplite
+ M12"; both can advance and shoot
+ WS3+ (RRF w/ Mask) 21x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)
+ Benefits more from Acquisition
+ Hoplites cannot be charged while embarked
= T6 W12 3+ (usu. -1 to hit) then 10x T3 W1 4+/5++ (4++ fighting, reflects mortals)
= More vulnerable to morale; can reroll morale
- BS3+ (sometimes RR1) 12x 36" S4 D1 + 10x 12" S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)

6 Breachers
+ BS4+ (usu RRAll) 12x 36" S6 AP-2 DD3 (D6 vs. vehicles)
+ Larger base size
+ Can be resurrected
+ Can be taken in larger squadrons
= 6x T5 W3 3+/6++ (5++ w/ strat)
- M6"; can only advance 3", cannot shoot
- WS4+ (RRF w/ WLT) 18x S6 AP-1 D1 (D3 vs. vehicles)

I mean its not really breacher OR hoplits is it? Yes they both have arc weaponry but they dont have the same purpose.

Also: If playing Dragoons you might as well play breacher since in ITC you will give away gang busters and why not stacking on an unit that the opponent has to go through yet wont get easy ITC points?

I really like that germany finally starts playing ITC so I can have decent conversations about tailoring your army for the mission set.

Sorry, kept adding to that list. Haha.

Well, for the purposes of screening, usually you do want to pick one or the other. At the very least, you CAN substitute.

Well, to be fair, everyone takes BGH and Gangbusters against us. It's the two most obvious choices. It's like taking Kingslayer and Titan Slayer against a Knight list. Or Reaper and Butcher's Bill against Guard.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Sorry, kept adding to that list. Haha.

Well, for the purposes of screening, usually you do want to pick one or the other. At the very least, you CAN substitute.

Well, to be fair, everyone takes BGH and Gangbusters against us. It's the two most obvious choices. It's like taking Kingslayer and Titan Slayer against a Knight list. Or Reaper and Butcher's Bill against Guard.

no worries. wasnt about their similarities for screening but in general. Just recentyl tested 15 breacher plus 20 hoplits. worked out great.
You dont take gangbusters fi there are no dragoons or breacher right? thats mhy i mentioned if you take either the one or the other, you might as well just take both.

So atm breachers are more prefered than destroyers?

Hesselhof wrote:
So atm breachers are more prefered than destroyers?

They fulfil very different combat roles.

Personally I dont like destroyers. Possible devastating output but pretty fragile with their 4+ base save and basically no close combat abilities. Huge footprint but not a screen unit at all

I tend to play input heavy toolbox lists but if you are a fan of balls to the wall dakka you might be happy with a lot of dakkastelans and double the ryza plasdestroysers

Iago40k wrote:

Hesselhof wrote:
So atm breachers are more prefered than destroyers?

They fulfil very different combat roles.

Personally I dont like destroyers. Possible devastating output but pretty fragile with their 4+ base save and basically no close combat abilities. Huge footprint but not a screen unit at all

I tend to play input heavy toolbox lists but if you are a fan of balls to the wall dakka you might be happy with a lot of dakkastelans and double the ryza plasdestroysers

yeah, destroyers are a big "feth you" button. pump them full of juicy stratagems and watch as your opponent melts. And then watch as your destroyers melt as your opponent puts everything into them on the following turn.
It fits my playstyle, i force my opponent to deal with imminent threats while my dunecrawlers + skorpius are the long term damage dealer.

Annoyingly X-101 (Servitor) is on battlescribe but Daedalosus isnt yet.

but also - yay battlescribe.

Ok thx for explain =) may i buy some breachers =P

How do you guys will come to the new techpriest? buy the box and sell the other blackstone stuff?

Hesselhof wrote:
Ok thx for explain =) may i buy some breachers =P

How do you guys will come to the new techpriest? buy the box and sell the other blackstone stuff?

scratchbuild from one of the datasmiths that are left over. slap some skitarii arms (data thether e.g.) and maybe the ruststalker princeps head (though the "beard" might need to be cut off) on the body and there you go. AdMech is very coversion friendly once you build up your bitbox...and dont care about the exact looks

Sounds legit^^

Hope the tourney organisators dont have a problem with scratchbuild

Hesselhof wrote:
Sounds legit^^

Hope the tourney organisators dont have a problem with scratchbuild

As a TO I*d like to see your conversion beforehands as will most TOs. Send a pic and aks if its okay and there you go. But do it before the actual event not at the event

Breachers costing so much less and having that +1 armor kinda offsets the drastic dakka punch difference imo.
They arent bad at shooting either, it just isnt high AP shooting and lacks the stratagems. But sometimes its smart to bring units you know you arent planning to use stratagems on, or at least not that often.

IronVaught wrote:
Annoyingly X-101 (Servitor) is on battlescribe but Daedalosus isnt yet.

but also - yay battlescribe.

Actually he shouldnt be, I added the root link in for testing to see if he validates and forgot to remove it..
Daedalus is, in the basics, already there, but not selectable since he's not released.

I only had very blurry images of the rules to go on, so I really really not recommend using X yet.

I currently just use my Enginseer (converted from a Datasmith with a Servo-Arm) as my Daedalosus. I have a Combat Arena box, but I am debating just selling the models. I am sure I can make back double selling the individual models at this point.

Iago40k wrote:
no worries. wasnt about their similarities for screening but in general. Just recentyl tested 15 breacher plus 20 hoplits. worked out great.
You dont take gangbusters fi there are no dragoons or breacher right? thats mhy i mentioned if you take either the one or the other, you might as well just take both.

Well, if I ONLY have Dragoons for Gangbusters, and they pick Gangbusters, I would hide my Dragoons in the way back and just use my Hoplites for screening. Good luck trying to kill them with shooting. Haha.

Hesselhof wrote:
So atm breachers are more prefered than destroyers?

Both are good. You just have to build your list around Destroyers. You can build around Breachers too, but they are also very useful as a screening unit or anvil (durable, static unit) for your hammer (mobile assault unit).

 Thairne wrote:

IronVaught wrote:
Annoyingly X-101 (Servitor) is on battlescribe but Daedalosus isnt yet.

but also - yay battlescribe.

Actually he shouldnt be, I added the root link in for testing to see if he validates and forgot to remove it..
Daedalus is, in the basics, already there, but not selectable since he's not released.

I only had very blurry images of the rules to go on, so I really really not recommend using X yet.

oh, youre the one making their entries?

heres a link to the full datasheet for daedalosus https://imgur.com/a/wAnsyAa/

I was just about to post that exact link.

What happens if we make Daedalosus our Warlord? Can we pick and choose a WLT?

Since he lacks a relic, we can give him any relic, right?

pretty sure you just flatout cannot give a named character a relic at all.
And if hes your warlord you wouldnt be able to use any of the dogma specific ones, as he doesnt have a dogma.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

oh, youre the one making their entries?

heres a link to the full datasheet for daedalosus https://imgur.com/a/wAnsyAa/

Yep, thats me! And thanks for the link, I've updated the entry accordingly.. he will be available once we push the next release
You don't happen to have seen a x-101 sheet too?

@Thairne
So what's the thinking concerning Manipulus's base point cost? RAW, it's 85. But it's the only example of a model that has a point cost listed WITH wargear (90), but has customizations that are cheaper than the listed point cost (Transonic is 0, but the default Magnarail is 5).

That one threw me for a loop as well.
The weapon has a pts cost.. but that is totally irrelevant since his cost is including wargear. So even if you switch - no discount.
So why they gave the Magnarail a cost that is never used, only GW knows...

Ugh. I keep seeing it ruled both ways. It's maddening. EVERYONE SPAM FAQ. If we're lucky, they will take the opportunity to just revise his base cost.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I was just about to post that exact link.

What happens if we make Daedalosus our Warlord? Can we pick and choose a WLT?

Since he lacks a relic, we can give him any relic, right?

All named characters count their gear as their relic, doesn't matter who they are. Doesn't matter if they have unique weapons or not. Check page 100 of the admech codex, in the little intro blurb. It states it there.

As for WLT, he'd be free to pick any generic trait I'd think. They'll probably FAQ him later on to have a set one or something like that.

The admech warlord trait rules are clear on this