Vineheart01 wrote: they need to just release a generic faq about that and "mortal damage in addition to damage"
Orks with grot shields have the same problem and the ruling on it is so dang fuzzy it always sparks arguments.
I think they did though:
Q: If an attack inflicts a rules effect on a target unit (e.g. Tremor Shells in Codex Space Marines), and that attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result of the Saviour Protocols ability, which unit is the rules effect applied to?
A: The Drones unit.
Tremor Shells is a stratagem that procs off an attack, right? So... SP redirects all rules effects to the Drone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, after breathing into a paper bag for a few minutes, here is what I think happens:
1) You attack with Dakkabots with Wrath.
2) You speed roll hits.
3) You one-by-one roll wounds.
-You one-by-one roll them because if you speed roll them, the Tau player can choose which of the wound rolls he wants to SP.
4) Tau player may SP each wound roll.
5a) Successful SP allocates one mortal wound to the Drone. The attack sequence for this attack ends.
-Additional mortal wound as a result of the Wrath is cancelled out
5b) Unsuccessful SP allocates one wound and one mortal wound to the target.
EDIT: I edited this at least twice, but right now, I am wondering if Tau can FNP the mortal wound. If the attack sequence ends immediately after the SP roll, then this means they CANNOT. So this could be a stealth nerf just to Shield Drones...
i would be able to answer that based on grot shields but grots are Slain rather than given a mortal wound.
I would wager if the attack sequence suddenly ends before the mortal wound from the 6 wound roll is generated (since that is strictly looking at the roll, not if the target took damage) they also would not get to roll FNP since they still suffer the wound before rolling FNP.
Again, i wish they'd just blanket faq this crap. I didnt know about that SPfaq you mentioned and it even contradicts itself with the new "ends attack sequence" bit.
i love the ability to shuffle wounds around to sacrificial units but man they did not handle it very well...
I'm really interested in trying out a blob of 20 Jazz Hands Electro Priests and 4 Dakka Kastellans with a Dadelaus and the Graia forgewoeld - I love the idea of so many exploding 5s and both units being able to continue firing when locked in combat - it feels like it could do a great job of dominating the centre field.. Has anyone tried using anything like this? Does anyone have any opinions on whether you get plenty of bang for your buck?
Suzuteo wrote: Jazz Hands die very fast without a transport or deep strike to protect them, unfortunately.
Oh poo that's a shame - whats the consensus on massed Rangers/Vanguard - especially with Griai's ability to shoot in close combat and the 6+++? Are squads of 10 still the way to go?
Vineheart01 wrote: they need to just release a generic faq about that and "mortal damage in addition to damage"
Orks with grot shields have the same problem and the ruling on it is so dang fuzzy it always sparks arguments.
I think they did though:
Q: If an attack inflicts a rules effect on a target unit (e.g. Tremor Shells in Codex Space Marines), and that attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result of the Saviour Protocols ability, which unit is the rules effect applied to?
A: The Drones unit.
Tremor Shells is a stratagem that procs off an attack, right? So... SP redirects all rules effects to the Drone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, after breathing into a paper bag for a few minutes, here is what I think happens:
1) You attack with Dakkabots with Wrath.
2) You speed roll hits.
3) You one-by-one roll wounds.
-You one-by-one roll them because if you speed roll them, the Tau player can choose which of the wound rolls he wants to SP.
4) Tau player may SP each wound roll.
5a) Successful SP allocates one mortal wound to the Drone. The attack sequence for this attack ends.
-Additional mortal wound as a result of the Wrath is cancelled out
5b) Unsuccessful SP allocates one wound and one mortal wound to the target.
EDIT: I edited this at least twice, but right now, I am wondering if Tau can FNP the mortal wound. If the attack sequence ends immediately after the SP roll, then this means they CANNOT. So this could be a stealth nerf just to Shield Drones...
I mean yeah, that works, but I feel like that would be rules as slow play. I hate Tau, but if I saw that in a tournament with not much context aside from the admech player doing it, I'd be inclined to agree that's slow play. I mean think about it, that's going to be like 60 dice you need to roll individually, and then have the Tau player react to. Would you ever make it past turn 3?
You could offer a HIWPI at the start and offer two choices:
1) I pick the SP roll order.
2) We do it one-by-one. I will roll to wound on my time and you SP on your time.
He can certainly try to accuse me of slow play, but these are no longer stochastically independent events. Technically, we are not allowed to fast roll them.
--
Thinking on the Shield Drones FNP rules confusion. One scenario that I can see FNP working is if the FAQ is VERY limited in scope. SP cancels out the wounds and mortal wounds caused by the weapon's attack. And it then allocates one mortal wound to the Drone and all other attack rules as well, continuing the attack sequence there.
Wrath of Mars is still not a part of the weapon attack. Does the Drone now just have to save two mortals? One from the SP and one from the Wrath of Mars rule, which now is targeting the Drone a la the Tremor Shells example?
Because in this example, they make it clear that it's the weapon that the SP is ignoring:
Q: How does the Saviour Protocols ability work when a T’au Empire unit is hit and wounded by a powerful weapon, like a lascannon, when it is near to some friendly Drones?
A: Let’s imagine a T’au Sept unit is targeted by a model firing a lascannon whilst a friendly T’au Sept Drone unit is within 3" of it. The hit roll and wound rolls for the attack made with the lascannon are both successful. The T’au Sept player then chooses to try and intercept the attack with a nearby drone unit and rolls one D6, scoring a 3. This is more than 2+, so the drone unit suffers 1 mortal wound and the lascannon’s attack ends (i.e. you do not take a saving throw, and the weapon’s damage characteristic is irrelevant).
And in this one, they make reference to an attack inflicting a rules effect from a stratagem:
Q: If an attack inflicts a rules effect on a target unit (e.g. Tremor Shells in Codex Space Marines), and that attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result of the Saviour Protocols ability, which unit is the rules effect applied to?
A: The Drones unit.
Oh I agree, RAW that's how it needs to be done. I'm just thinking about it in terms of logistics and time at a tournament. Essentially just trying to think of how that would go down when you're 20 minutes into round 3 of a long day and you've got a Tau player who's stomped the first two people he went against, only to be told he now has to roll every save one by one because otherwise he completely shuts down a key part of your list. Even a good person is going to be annoyed most likely, but if they're cranky or a jerk I could definitely see issues.
Essentially, I'm not talking about tactics so much as soft skills and stats that affect tournament stuff that you can't really math out. You know, stuff like "hey, maybe 300 Ork Boyz would stomp most lists, but how do you plan on moving that army from table to table, rolling all the dice, and making sure you get a game past turn 3?" Or how something may be good, but playing it is going to annoy most opponents and make them be a lot less forgiving to you.
You know, like Tau
Hope I didn't come across mean there, you get what I mean right?
And yes, this Tau drone ruling is really annoying. I can't believe they get to FnP savior protocol in the first place but this is just rubbing salt in the wound. They're already stupidly powerful, the drones really didn't need a buff to begin with.
A mortal wound isnt a rules effect its effectibely a seperate attack the wrath of mars mortal wounds would require seperate 2+ to be transferred to drones at which the mortal wound on the target unit ends and the drone takes a mortal wound.
If a player has 3 drones its perfectly reasonable to role 3 dice at a time it will speed the game up over sequential and won't change outcomes
Play with a clock vs tau if they use up their time thats their problem.
Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to normal damage should be allocated after that attack has been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling when resolving attacks with this ability).
So indeed, the additional MW is not part of the attack sequence, and isn’t cancelled out when Savior Protocols ends the attack sequence. Instead the MW is resolved after SP. But the MW itself cannot be Savior Protocol’d because it does not have its own wound roll, and wound rolls are when SP takes place.
So in short, as I understand it from the above BRBFAQ and the wording on SP, MWs from Wrath of Mars pierce SP and do direct damage to the target unit, while SP can only try to block the regular attack damage.
Yo! Quick questions - I've landed a bit of hobby money, and was wondering about a couple of things!
1. How are Secutarii Hoplites? I don't see 'em mentionned much, but I love the way they look. What do you do with them, and what kind of support do they need? Are they made redundant if I have like 10 rust stalkers as well?
2. The Tech-Thrall Covenant with Las-Locks don't have 40k rules, right? Again, I really like the models, but I'm not sure what I'd do with them, especially as I already have quite a lot of skitarii...
Q: Some attacks deal mortal wounds in addition to their normal damage. When are these mortal wounds allocated?
A: Any mortal wounds inflicted by an attack in addition to normal damage should be allocated after that attack has been resolved (note that this may prevent fast dice rolling when resolving attacks with this ability).
So indeed, the additional MW is not part of the attack sequence, and isn’t cancelled out when Savior Protocols ends the attack sequence. Instead the MW is resolved after SP. But the MW itself cannot be Savior Protocol’d because it does not have its own wound roll, and wound rolls are when SP takes place.
So in short, as I understand it from the above BRBFAQ and the wording on SP, MWs from Wrath of Mars pierce SP and do direct damage to the target unit, while SP can only try to block the regular attack damage.
But then you have this gem in the Tau FAQ:
Q: If an attack inflicts mortal wounds on the target, and the attack is subsequently allocated to a Drones unit as a result of the Saviour Protocols ability, what happens to those mortal wounds inflicted?
A: They are cancelled. All damage and mortal wounds inflicted as the result of that attack is reduced to the mortal wound inflicted by the Saviour Protocols ability on that Drones unit.
I love how they manage to contradict themselves in so many places... my thinking now is that mortal wounds inflicted IN ADDITION are treated the BRBFAQ way, but mortal wounds inflicted INSTEAD or as a replacement are treated the Tau FAQ way???
If so, then crisis averted. We can speed roll again. Nothing has changed essentially, except that we MUST SP the normal damage first. And Tau cannot SP the mortals at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seems the Reddit crowd is adamant on the most favorable interpretation for Tau. So it looks like we're going to be slow-rolling wounds against them. Be sure to position your dice near the clock for easy access.
Stygies lacks long range damage output imho. It's more useful for infiltrating shenanigans.
And I don't think they are glass cannons. Just take those repulsors: 16 wounds with T8, 3+/5++, 6+ FnP and reducing incoming damage by 1. This mitigates so many good weapons in the game which tend to be damage 2.
Plus they basically ignore the damage chart of vehicles.
Even 6 Laschickens with Doctrina do just 11.5 wounds on average against a repulsor, which than will be healed by 6.
@Suzuteo
I feel that robots are the best bet against IH. You ignore their stupid -1 DMG thing, you deal MW and you put Levis back on their 4++. Plus those bots offer good survivability.
had a game yesterday in a 2v2, we were admech against iron hands. Making vendreads characters to protect them, having thunderfire cannons and whirlinds that can be hidden in a ruin yet still damage anything on the map is ridiculous.
We lost half of our army before even playing, and the guns we had left (6 kataphrons, 2 belleros and 1 icarus crawler) couldnt even target any of their heavy hitter. The powercreep has really turned me off of the game. I'm going to stick to friendly beerr and pretzel games and killteam from now on.
Iron Hands are NOT glass cannons. You need to play them before you say something like that. They hit like glass cannons, but their Repulsors and Relic Levis have as much durability as a Knight. And their Ven Dreads are even worse because they cannot even be targeted. They will sit back there burning through your army with Lascannons all game. That list is the one I hate the most. I've got nothing on them except to kill everything upfield and try to sneak Dragoons in with Dunestriders.
@VladimirHerzog
TFCs are abominable. I didn't have any Skitarii left by the bottom of Round 2 the first time I played them when I got back from Japan.
Iron Hands are NOT glass cannons. You need to play them before you say something like that. They hit like glass cannons, but their Repulsors and Relic Levis have as much durability as a Knight. And their Ven Dreads are even worse because they cannot even be targeted. They will sit back there burning through your army with Lascannons all game. That list is the one I hate the most. I've got nothing on them except to kill everything upfield and try to sneak Dragoons in with Dunestriders.
@VladimirHerzog
TFCs are abominable. I didn't have any Skitarii left by the bottom of Round 2 the first time I played them when I got back from Japan.
yeah, 47 pts for the gun itself (since it comes with a techmarine) is just stupid.
and yeah, their infantry might be glass cannon but the rest of their army sure isnt, character ven dreads is particularly strong and in my opinion should never have been added to the game. our only answer to it is to run arquebuses / vindicaire spam. People were saying that the weakness of iron hands would be that they'd be a typical gunline so you can just hide from them. The thing is , they can bring cheap mortars. and if they need map control, they can still run infantry since their guns will just delete any threats.
Suzuteo wrote: Nah man. Iron Fathers and Chapter Masters are really hard to crack. And it's as you say. They will kill your snipers first thing with the TFCs.
thats what i mean, our best counter is so trivial for them to deal with that its not an actual counter. While i'm glad non blue marines are getting some love and becoming more playable, the amount of free rules they get just for picking a chapter is mindboggling.
Ignore penalty for moving (ok ,our heavy have that already)
an additionnal AP on all their heavy guns
Reroll 1's for their heavy guns (we have our canticle to give it for everything, but it usually only for one turn unless were playing mars)
Feel no pain 6+
Overwatch on 5+ (agripiina +++)
So all of this is free, now lets add the iron father to this
5++ bubble (our vehicles get this so ok)
Signum array
actually decent gun
heal for a flat 3 (can be used twice)
is only 110 pts
add in the psychic powers and the stupid ironstone relic and honestly im overwhelmed.
Iron Hands are NOT glass cannons. You need to play them before you say something like that. They hit like glass cannons, but their Repulsors and Relic Levis have as much durability as a Knight. And their Ven Dreads are even worse because they cannot even be targeted. They will sit back there burning through your army with Lascannons all game. That list is the one I hate the most. I've got nothing on them except to kill everything upfield and try to sneak Dragoons in with Dunestriders.
@VladimirHerzog
TFCs are abominable. I didn't have any Skitarii left by the bottom of Round 2 the first time I played them when I got back from Japan.
yeah, 47 pts for the gun itself (since it comes with a techmarine) is just stupid.
and yeah, their infantry might be glass cannon but the rest of their army sure isnt, character ven dreads is particularly strong and in my opinion should never have been added to the game. our only answer to it is to run arquebuses / vindicaire spam. People were saying that the weakness of iron hands would be that they'd be a typical gunline so you can just hide from them. The thing is , they can bring cheap mortars. and if they need map control, they can still run infantry since their guns will just delete any threats.
Well we will see personnally white scars still seem a more dangerous threat and certainly are the dominant meta choice where I am. Your right i havn't played vs the character leviathens but the ven dread are glass cannon for their pts if you can get to them and at -1 to hit because im assuming they are more than 12 don't pack all that much firepower for their points. Between dunecrawlers disintegrators hoplites and a knight crusader we have enough power to be easily winning going first but yes if they go first its going to be hard thats what makes them glass cannons.
If we go first or we have good LOS blocking terrain, we have a chance to win by just knocking out all of their frontline stuff. Then it's a Grator vs TFC duel while your dudes claim objectives and HODL.
U02dah4 wrote: Well we will see personnally white scars still seem a more dangerous threat and certainly are the dominant meta choice where I am. Your right i havn't played vs the character leviathens but the ven dread are glass cannon for their pts if you can get to them and at -1 to hit because im assuming they are more than 12 don't pack all that much firepower for their points. Between dunecrawlers disintegrators hoplites and a knight crusader we have enough power to be easily winning going first but yes if they go first its going to be hard thats what makes them glass cannons.
If he has ven dreads odds are they are characters. So to shoot at them you need to clear everything in front of them first. Albeit if you can do that then you have pretty much wiped out his army already so won game.
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 119pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber: Cognis Heavy Stubber, Neutron Laser
Hesselhof wrote: Hey guys just one short question: would you play dragoons in a mixed detachment?
Yes. If taken like stygies you can still put them in infiltration, even in mixed detachment. Losing -1 to hit is not so big loss because it makes opponent more confused where to put fire. With -2 to hit most opponent just ignored dragoons and its bigger fire pressure for rest of your army. Mixed detachment has good variability when you play admech just like add on to another main imperial detachment (stygies infiltration, graia psychyc canceling etc. all in one pack).
If your opponents are ignoring your Dragoons, you're doing something wrong. The reason why they're so good is that they're impossible to ignore. If they don't put anti-vehicle into them right away, in spite of the -2 to hit, the Dragoons will be close enough the next turn to charge and wreck their vehicles or trap infantry and slide their way into the backline.
I would say in every game, Dragoons are either the first unit to die or one of the most valuable units. That is why people run them.
Suzuteo wrote: If your opponents are ignoring your Dragoons, you're doing something wrong. The reason why they're so good is that they're impossible to ignore. If they don't put anti-vehicle into them right away, in spite of the -2 to hit, the Dragoons will be close enough the next turn to charge and wreck their vehicles or trap infantry and slide their way into the backline.
I would say in every game, Dragoons are either the first unit to die or one of the most valuable units. That is why people run them.
THIS!
Also, where are we in the thinking of sticking to stygies. Is the Space Marine threat with their reroll everything crap enough to go full on Mars or maybe even smth else? Stygies still rock due to infiltrate stratagem but as more and more Marines enter the field, the -1 gets irrelevant.
But maybe we really have to go full boat party, vanguards plas, hoplits maybe even peltasts and stuff.
The problem with IH is that pretty much any unit becomes OP if you stack that many bonuses onto them.
There are two AdMech lists that my group thinks may have a shot. The first being Dakkabots and Ryzaphrons; you just have to alpha the crap out of them. Get ahead, stay ahead. The second being Boatspam. The one thing IH is not is mobile. So burn 6 CP and infiltrate your entire army onto objectives. Kill the Scouts and make good trades against anything they own that is anti-infantry. Definitely try to kill their TFCs.
But the big problem is that because IH is an OP faction rather than OP units, there is massive variety and no good build that handles all cases.
Suzuteo wrote: The problem with IH is that pretty much any unit becomes OP if you stack that many bonuses onto them.
There are two AdMech lists that my group thinks may have a shot. The first being Dakkabots and Ryzaphrons; you just have to alpha the crap out of them. Get ahead, stay ahead. The second being Boatspam. The one thing IH is not is mobile. So burn 6 CP and infiltrate your entire army onto objectives. Kill the Scouts and make good trades against anything they own that is anti-infantry. Definitely try to kill their TFCs.
But the big problem is that because IH is an OP faction rather than OP units, there is massive variety and no good build that handles all cases.
well boatspam it is then. Dakkabots and ryzaphrons are, in my opinion, inferior to boatspam in any other match up and even vs IH you need to have T1.
Addition to a boatspamlist
mixed vanguard detachment
Deadalosus
Hoplites
Hoplites
10 Mars Infiltrators
and as mentioned...maybe Peltasts can do a decent job in this circumstances
Hesselhof wrote: Tommorow and friday i havr test games with my previous posted list, one is defenetly against iron hands
with neutronagers?
I am rly unsure about this =/ the icarus receive +1 to hit if i shoot executioners but str 7 is the highest, the neutronager will get the dmg reduce but wound on a 3 guess i try one game with neutro, the other with icarus, otherwise i ll buy two more bots for the points XD
Do you think breacher will fit in my list?
Or as you say, maybe instead of onagers, a 10 man bomb of infils?
Hesselhof wrote: Tommorow and friday i havr test games with my previous posted list, one is defenetly against iron hands
with neutronagers?
I am rly unsure about this =/ the icarus receive +1 to hit if i shoot executioners but str 7 is the highest, the neutronager will get the dmg reduce but wound on a 3 guess i try one game with neutro, the other with icarus, otherwise i ll buy two more bots for the points XD
Do you think breacher will fit in my list?
Or as you say, maybe instead of onagers, a 10 man bomb of infils?
unsure about breachers at this point. i think they will die to early to weight of fire by the marines.
neutronagers will do you no good against repulsors and the like. if you want to kill them take either mars dakkabots or try laser balistarii but neutronagers with d3 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s against a 5++, dealing -1 and/or half dmg and a 6+++ following..that wont work. if you are not able to kill a repulsor with sub average dice you have to come up with something else.
Iago40k wrote: well boatspam it is then. Dakkabots and ryzaphrons are, in my opinion, inferior to boatspam in any other match up and even vs IH you need to have T1.
Addition to a boatspamlist
mixed vanguard detachment
Deadalosus
Hoplites
Hoplites
10 Mars Infiltrators
and as mentioned...maybe Peltasts can do a decent job in this circumstances
Well, I lack 5-6 Duneriders, though I do have 3 Duneriders and 3 Drills...
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Lol. Maybe a bit too weird. I don't have that many Calivers anyway.
Even still, the plan is mostly just to outscore them on objectives. You will likely get pounded by Lascannons every turn, but as long as they have to break through a transport then the infantry, you can outlast them with Kill 1, Hold 1, Hold More.
Suzuteo wrote: Well, us, Grey Knights, and Necrons could all use a rewrite.
And Ynnari, I guess.
To be fair, our codex is nowhere near as bad as Gks,Necrons and Ynnari. Its mostly that msot of our options are non-existent when it comes to non-unit choices (Dogma, Relic, Warlord traits).
We're a pretty lucky codex that got a lot of love this year with the multiple releases. All of which were good (Manipulus, Skorpius, Daedalosus).
We can also go toes to toes with the top dogs of the format (pre IH supplement).
Still, i wouldnt mind getting a codex 2.0, as long as we dont get nerfed in it.
really all i hope for in an Admech 2.0 dex is better dogmas and the dogma-specific stratagems to make souping the various forgeworlds less of an attractive idea.
I find it annoying to keep track of whats what since i loathe painting my army in different schemes. But mono-forgeworld is kinda crap, even in a casual setting.
totally agreed, having agripiina/metallica/ryza/graia/lucius playable as a mono-dogma list would be amazing. Right now mars and stygies get all the attention.
I mean, for a relentlessly advancing faction, metallica didnt even get our scout move....
The fact that we got multiple releases is why I think we definitely will get a 2.0. Few of our stratagems work with the new stuff. Looking at the SM codex, it's 90% the same, with a few additions and reworks. And really, it's hard to see a rework being worse than what we have for WLT, relics, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last tourney Top 4s before the IH meta comes in:
Spoiler:
3rd Place
Cyle Thompson - Iron Halo
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [89 PL, 1,476pts, -2CP] ++
Forge World Choice . Forge World: Mars
Operative Requisition Sanctioned [85pts, -2CP]
+ Heavy Support +
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Total: [125 PL, -2CP, 1,999pts] ++
Funny, looks like the list I was running, only with Fulgurites instead of Hoplites and no Ryza Vanguard in the Drill. Very interesting how Cyle is just filling his Duneriders with naked Skitarii. I think it's pretty smart to just scoot them onto objectives and disembark them behind the transport, which blocks LOS.
Also interesting how he went with Mars instead of Stygies. But then again, maybe he still expected Eldar to be his greatest threat.
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 162pts] . Armiger Warglaive: Heavy Stubber
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 478pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon
Knight Gallant [20 PL, 352pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [70 PL, 8CP, 1,007pts] ++
Forge World Choice . Forge World: Mars
Ideasweasel wrote: How long before GW realises their folly and nerfs iron hands into the ground in a ham fisted nature
I still can’t believe it went to print as it did. Wave 2 of the codices better be nice to Admech.
Well 2 week faq would be first but has there been any major balance changes outside those that come from fixing bugged rules(like chance to get 2++ meganobz for orks if vehicle nearby blows).
Ca is done so unless gw realised before supplement release nothing there.
Then spring faq in april.
Don't think gw has done balance fixes outside that so my guess is spring faq. So we are looking at half a year before we might see changes
@Suzuteo who says IH aren’t mobile? Every IH list I’ve seen from local top players has been cramming Attack Bikes, Land Speeders (and Storms), various flyers, etc to take advantage of the army-wide Machine Spirit with rerolls. They’re crazy mobile!
On another sad note I saw that the Termite Drill gets Angels of Death after the recent round of FAQs. So they get their extra AP and extra attack, while ours doesn’t even get Canticles!
For what it's worth, I think a two detachment Graia and Stygies/Lucius can work pretty well as a Skitarii outside the standard Cawlstar. Graia with camping Rangers and infiltrating...Infiltrators (make better use of the Strat that way), and Lucius/Stygies Vanguard making their way downtown, walking fast. With or without Drills, but I preferred Drills.
Iron Hands work better for those fast Heavy weapons platforms because they give Machine Spirit “no move+shoot heavy weapon penalties” and free rerolls to all of them, which makes them much better units. White Scars and RG don’t really help these units nearly so much.
If you play a servitor manipel with one unit of 8 breacher, would you use servitors and master of biosplicing? Is it worth? In all games i did, it only worked one time =/
So these are my IH matchups, ranked in order of decreasing threat to us:
Executioner: If they go first, and there's bad terrain, you're dead.
Flying Circus: Basically the new Eldar flyers, backed by unkillable artillery.
Ven Dreads: Extremely frustrating because it's non-interactive as hell. (Decided to move this down. The Flying Circus is probably more threatening.)
Impulsor Spam: Scary only because I am unlikely to win the objectives game against this sort of list, so I have to gun them down.
Levi Dread: Super overrated.
The Executioner list is such an extreme list, that I find it hard to prepare against. Perhaps it is cold comfort, but the other SM chapters are super strong and have equal matchups against IH, which cannot prep against them all.
Eldar, Tau, and Imperial Knights are all going to have a hard time adjusting. All of the Space Marine lists are spamming the crap out of AA and CC. The meta lists just auto lose against IH, and they are unfavored against WS, RG, and UM as well. Orks, AdMech, 1K Sons, and Chaos are probably the least hurt by the changes.
@Hesselhof
In my experience, unless you are going to really commit to it, the immortal Kataphrons concept is not worth it. Just use the Maniple for the +1 to hit and 5++.
Fortification - 192 1x Imperial Bastion - 4x Heavy Bolter
Total: 2000 points 11 CP
Basically, you hide all of your infantry inside the Bastion or Duneriders. Then you pop out and melt people.
Reminds me of Scout Bunker from the 7E days. (For newer people, you used to be able to infiltrate buildings, then slingshot units with the Escape Hatch.)
I am not sure if this strategy would work better as 100% Mars though. You can probably squeeze in another Dunerider by dropping the Dominus. And you would basically be doing Elimination Volley instead of Plasma Specialists and Mindlock.
Thairne wrote: Why a Bastion though? Wouldn't a bunker suffice or is the +1 T/8W and the bolters worth the price of admission?
More firing ports and higher capacity as well. Of note, you can't just cram a bunch of random units in there though. It can take 1 Infantry unit and any number of Infantry characters I believe. So no plugging in 4 units of 5 Rangers w/ 2 snipers each. I thought about that. Hilariously you could try 3x Ranger snipers and 3x Vindicaires though.
Actually, the provided reasoning was that the Bastion is large enough to hide your Robots behind and block LOS from Knights, flyers, and such.
This being said, I am not sure if I want to get a bastion just for this though. Maybe kitbash one. I always wanted to do a 40k take on Howl's Moving Castle. (As a conversion for a Plasma Obliterator. Haha.)
The two lists I am deciding between right now:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 963 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 773 4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Transport - 146 1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 574
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 334 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
We had a player with the bastion at our Alliance Open North West GT last weekend. Did not finish in the top 40 so...no. Best AdMech player dropped after day 1. His list is:
I like the list. With some changes I will play it at the major in amsterdam in november. Id switch the dakkastelans and the datasmith to dragoons and take 1 large unit of breacher.
for your lists suzu: i really dont think Plastroyers are worth anything anymore. They are fragile and die if you dont get first turn and the output... id doubt that they would kill an IH vehicle.
Personally I dont think i will go for dakkabots.They wont help me in most matchups i dont think. Id rather go for more melee punch. Against decent GSC players they are basically a very expensive screen unit if that. I like the last list you posted though i am still not a fan of a drill with plasmadudes...but since you love them so much roll with them
I do agree that the first list relies a bit too much on going first. And yeah, Kataphrons are too fragile in this meta now. It was one thing when everyone was prepping for T3-4 infantry, but now everyone is prepping for T4-5 infantry and bikes.
The Dakkabots are the only thing I can think of that can handle the large variety of possible IH threats. Mortal wound spam is just incredibly advantageous now.
Dropping a unit of souped up Plasma Calivers with a giant Drill with a melta deals an incredible amount of damage. Especially when paired with mortal wounds spamming Infiltrators.
The third list is feeling a bit obsolete. It's prepping for a meta that may no longer be there. Tau and Eldar are both definitely going to evolve to handle Space Marines better.
The Triptide list, for example, just auto-loses to most IH lists, since it's an army built around Burst Cannons. I expect to see Ghostkeels, Fusion Crisis Suits, maybe even Yvahras.
As for Eldar, I think it's going to depend a lot on Psychic Awakening, but the flyer spam list is hard-countered by all of the AA spamming going on.
Speaking of which, did you all hear that ITC rules now forbid flying vehicles from standing atop Ruins unless their flying base (or hull, if there is no flying base) fits entirely on it without overlapping other bases?
Suzuteo wrote: I do agree that the first list relies a bit too much on going first. And yeah, Kataphrons are too fragile in this meta now. It was one thing when everyone was prepping for T3-4 infantry, but now everyone is prepping for T4-5 infantry and bikes.
Thats slightly annoying to read as I finish off more breachers so I can run 3 squads of 4, I totally agree that plasmaphrons usually melt turn 1 if I don't go first getting my no output but I'm hoping that 3 breachers agripinna squads will at least divide in coming fire a bit. I do want to try experimenting with deep striking fistellans, three of them showing up and getting into the middle of a castle or armies back lines might be fun.
@Agamembar
You should have seen how mad I was when they nerfed infiltration as I was painting my 3x Drills.
But to be fair, EVERYONE is sort of in the same bind. A lot of IH lists are going to be bringing 3 Stormtalons. This is 6x S5 AP-2 D1 and 12x S6 AP-2 D1 shots, hitting on 2s with RR1s. Fist lists are probably just going to spam the crap out of bolt rifles and heavy bolters as well. T6-7 is going to be the new T4-5.
Anyhow, Breachers still work. They just aren't as ridiculous as they used to be. People are upgunning their armies to deal with Aggressors and such.
stygies used to let you "deepstrike" before the game. You could basically deploy a drill 9" away, then on your turn, disembark + move it 1.01" away for a guaranteed charge.
Well, it's only useless if your opponent is not going to try to control the midboard at all. Or if you are in a short deployment. But yeah, definitely less powerful. Especially now that everyone and their mom has Scouts.
i mean, you still get a turn one charge reliably enough if you slingshot a transport. I've been having decent success with infiltrating two skorpius filled with fulgurites, advancing a manipulus to give bonus movement after the disembark and then charging in. It basically gives you (9" + 3" + 6" + 1") 19" of movement with your fulgurites. On half the deployments, that means youre already in their deployment zone and in the rest it means you need to make a 5" charge.
That is where your superior shooting comes into play. And if you go second, you will be deployed further back so they have to come forward.
Really, the point is that if the opponent does not shoot your melee first turn, they will be up in their business the next turn. We don't get to totally bomb them like the old infiltrate, but it's not as useless as feared.
That being said, Scouts might make me eat my words. Makes me wonder if I should drop Dragoons for a third transport with Fulgurites in them. They gobble up Scouts and become unkillable.
Oh interesting. No Crawlers, but boatspam instead. Probably the right move. We can't bring enough Crawlers to overcome 2-3 Executioners anyway. (We would need like 4-8 to do that.)
I think your last detachment is a Vanguard, by the way.
I actually came up with a similar list while trying to come up with something that did not give up Gangbusters, but was mobile and Skitarii-focused:
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Turn one, shove three transports into his face. Clear screens with Grators and Duneriders. Deep strike Assassin, Infiltrators, and Drill the next turn. Melt things with lots of dakka. If you can't kill, then play the Stygies cockroach game and hide transports and troops on objectives. Probably was a lot stronger back when we could spam Acquisition though.
Looking at your list, I think this one would need pruning to be even semi-competitive. Maybe create a Mixed Vanguard detachment just like the one you have, give my infantry more Calivers and Arquebuses, cram them into boats, etc. Maybe even cut the Dominus in favor of two rounds of shooting RR1 Canticle.
Yeah, last Detachment is a vanguard. I think breacher are more of a help vs Marines than crawlers. Tau and eldar match up are a wee tougher but still manageable. Only thing I am thinking about is making the infis stygies. No wom but they can ride a boat as well. This list spends a lot of cp on infiltrating but I think this is the way to go. Needs some minor tweaks since not all points are spend but every unit has its job yet their loss is manageable. 3 boats with 20 hoplites, t debuffing vanguards and a tpe with mask plus 4 dragoons in your face t1 or at least 60 t6 wounds with - 1 to hit and 2 or 3 up with shroudpsalm. I like ^^
Just had my first game against IH, oh lord...
Those repulsors are disgusting
I'm not quite sure sure of the boat approach is the right way, as they can be killed so easily by the repulsors (even Shroudpsalm won't help, as they will be AP -5, and the infantry inside will just be picked up by the small arms of the remaining repulsors plus TFC (man' those things are disgusting as well).
There are no real things to threaten the repulsors in the list to be honest.
Welcome to me at the end of September. Lol. List-building is going to be an exercise in anxiety, so let me just say that so far, I have found that Dakkabots are pretty much the only thing that "work" right now.
And really, Executioners aren't even the worst. Ven Dreads are totally non-interactive. And Stormtalons with a Biker Captain are cancer; because Biker Captains can turbo boost 20" advances, you basically have this deathball of minus to hit, Ironstoned flyers moving around the board melting things.
Well, the purpose of the boats is to force overkill from the Executioners and to get your troops into ruins. So just advance them onto one side of a wall. When they blow up the boat, emergency disembark them on the other side of the wall.
Yeah, I am telling you, Shroudpsalm is not as big a deal anymore. Cawl may be overinvestment for everything not 75% Mars. Just focus on hitting their mobile elements and controlling the board. The only thing that can really kill those Executioners are Dakakbots; 4 Dakkabots instantly kill one, and that really hurts their list. You can also try to tie up their Executioners, but if they are brining TFCs, it will be tough, since they can slow those Dragoons to infantry speeds.
Yeah you are right about Dakkabots. I also had 4 of them and they were the only thing keeping me in the game witth their damage bypassing their stone relic.
But 4 Bots shooting averages just out mathematically if they pop the 5++ MWfnp.
Still not sold on the Boats though. Even if you get to disembark your guys behind a wall every marine list I see is rocking at least 2 pieces of artillery and their artillery loves shredding T3 infantry.
It's really frustrating to be honest. IH are so synergistic and feel just like a better AdMech tbh. (E.g. repairing 6 wounds a turn)
But to be fair we are still one of the earliest codexes and still some what holding our own. I just hope that psychic awakening gives us some love. Maybe building your own craftworld like Eldar get and also an Archmagos stratagem?
True. TFCs and Stormtalons are the things I actually hate the most. Executioners are strong, but without those two pieces, they are tolerable to deal with.
IH are a better everything. More durable than DG. More repair than AdMech. Better combat tricks than Harlequins. Stronger flyers than Eldar. Better artillery than Guard. Ugh.
I'm just praying remaining supplements don't manage to one up the IH. It's already brutal enough I decided to take complete pause from competive tournaments and stick to the casual tournaments here.
If infantry and boats are not that great anymore, why not a list comprised pretty entirely out of the only three most viable units left in the codex?
Shove 4, 5, or even 9 Dragoons in their face while 4 Robots and 3 Grators gun down anything that tries to stand in their way.
Only real downside is how screwed I am if the map is filled with enclosed ruins really. I could drop the 5x Dragoon unit and stick in 11x Fulgurites in a Drill for that; the 12th seat goes to an Enginseer Mask caddy. Or 2x10 Hoplites in two Boats. But then I'd be back to square one.
lash92 wrote: Just had my first game against IH, oh lord...
Those repulsors are disgusting
I'm not quite sure sure of the boat approach is the right way, as they can be killed so easily by the repulsors (even Shroudpsalm won't help, as they will be AP -5, and the infantry inside will just be picked up by the small arms of the remaining repulsors plus TFC (man' those things are disgusting as well).
There are no real things to threaten the repulsors in the list to be honest.
they are disgusting. there are several threads in the list for repulsors. breachers, dragoons, hoplites. Yet its not that important to kill everything the opponent has. the boats can harass, they can deliver, yet they can do what they were made for in the first place. secure units and stay mobile. Especially in ITC. Thunderfires are a problem but oh well, there has to be one right?
This is a toolbox list so it can deal with pretty much everything. even though there are a ton of SM players, we cannot build a list that is only good against them.
Dont worry, IF will get a +1DMG against vehicles for heavy weapons in devastor doctrine
@Iago40k
Maybe I was a little bit salty after my game yesterday, so there´s that I like your list in 90% of all match ups, dont get me wrong. It is a good toolbox, just to few tools against the dominant IH matchup in the future.
Breachers can threaten Repulsors as they have D6dmg true, but thats it to be honest. (Plus 1 round of shooting from infiltrators).
Dragoons won´t cut it due to T8, 4+ against them and just 1 dmg. And hoplites even less as they will have real problems getting delivered into CQC.
Even dragoons aren´t that hard to kill anymore due to BF2+ and the ability to get Cawl-grade rerolls.
@ Suzuteo:
Whats the deal with Stormtalons? Haven´t faced them yet.
Seems like a lot of S5/S6 AP-2 shooting, which shouldn´t face our vehicles much and makes even Shroudpsalm worth it.
tneva82 wrote:I'm just praying remaining supplements don't manage to one up the IH. It's already brutal enough I decided to take complete pause from competive tournaments and stick to the casual tournaments here.
preach, i'm doing the same over here. Iron hands is just stupid, and even casual games aren't safe for me because people here think cheesing = friendly for some reason. (Legit had a guy bring the repulsor deathball vs a player that plays purely casual, and the repulsor wielding gakker was the one to suggest a "casual" game too).
Honestly i don't know wtfGW was thinking when they made iron hands. And i'm sick of marines players calling the buffed thunderfire "a balanced unit".
@Iago40k
Prepping for IH is like prepping for Castellans. They are such an extreme list that if you don't prep for them, you will just run splat into them. Every other list is tolerable by comparison, and many lists that were meta last month are going to radically change soon.
@lash92
Basically, you give Ironstone to a Bike Captain, who gets 20" move when he advances. The Stormtalons have a minimum move of 20" as well. Maybe bring 2-3 Stormhawks as well. So you have this mobile flying ball of death with T6 W10 3+/6+++, -1D, and -1 to hit durability going around mowing down units. Extremely difficult to hide from, what with their height and their mobility. Extremely hard to kill given all their durability bonuses. On top of this, you have Scouts, Snipers, Aggressors, and/or TFCs on the ground supplementing them. Imagine if they made Wave Serpents into flyers, but also gave them +1 to hit against ground, +1 AP, 6+++ FNP, no Heavy penalty, and rerolls to hit and to wound.
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
Prepping for IH is like prepping for Castellans. They are such an extreme list that if you don't prep for them, you will just run splat into them. Every other list is tolerable by comparison, and many lists that were meta last month are going to radically change soon.
@lash92
Basically, you give Ironstone to a Bike Captain, who gets 20" move when he advances. The Stormtalons have a minimum move of 20" as well. Maybe bring 2-3 Stormhawks as well. So you have this mobile flying ball of death with T6 W10 3+/6+++, -1D, and -1 to hit durability going around mowing down units. Extremely difficult to hide from, what with their height and their mobility. Extremely hard to kill given all their durability bonuses. On top of this, you have Scouts, Snipers, Aggressors, and/or TFCs on the ground supplementing them. Imagine if they made Wave Serpents into flyers, but also gave them +1 to hit against ground, +1 AP, 6+++ FNP, no Heavy penalty, and rerolls to hit and to wound.
Break out those snipers. Remove the Ironstone and you're doing better. Not good, but better. Infantry will not keep up with this group, so their 'look out sir' version will not protect the captain as well as a Repulsor wall would.
I just don't see how a gunline alone could work against IH. They kill as in the shooting game. We need 2 ways of aggression and more ways to play them.
Maybe it's not dragoons but priests in boats or something. And maybe we need to be more repetitive. What is best against IH? Take a lot of it. Could be one way.
Yet we will not go 4:1 with a list like that
bmsattler wrote: Break out those snipers. Remove the Ironstone and you're doing better. Not good, but better. Infantry will not keep up with this group, so their 'look out sir' version will not protect the captain as well as a Repulsor wall would.
Except you would need to go first and have 12 Arquebuses in LOS. Otherwise, the TFCs, their snipers, or the flyers' bolters will shred your snipers the next turn.
Iago40k wrote: I just don't see how a gunline alone could work against IH. They kill as in the shooting game. We need 2 ways of aggression and more ways to play them.
Maybe it's not dragoons but priests in boats or something. And maybe we need to be more repetitive. What is best against IH? Take a lot of it. Could be one way.
Yet we will not go 4:1 with a list like that
Agreed. It has to be 4 Robots and some melee threat. Dragoons seem like a natural choice because they actually hit hard enough to take down Executioners and Dreadnoughts. It's also a lot harder for them to kill them >12".
Automatically Appended Next Post: So what delights do we think psychic awakening will have in store for us?
I can’t believe crimson hunter exarchs get a 5++. Lucky for us our heavy hitters tend to be quantity over quality but still. Those planes are even stronger now
By the way, the Top 8 at the first GT since Iron Hands became legal are all Iron Hands. (Some are listed as Adeptus Astartes, but they're also pretty much Iron Hands.)
So yeah, not an exaggeration to say that the only thing you should be prepping for is Iron Hands.
Unless GW hot fixes them in their FAQ, which is overdue.
More details, most successful lists ran:
- 2x Mortis Dreadnoughts with Lascannons, buffed by March of Ancients
- 3x Stormtalon with Typhoons, sometimes with Stormhawks
- Assault Centurions
Repulsors seem rare. The invincible Dreadnoughts taking preference. Levis nowhere in sight. TFCs seem to be in moderate quantity.
One Eldar broke into the first page. But still 90% IH. It's bad out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So what delights do we think psychic awakening will have in store for us?
I can’t believe crimson hunter exarchs get a 5++. Lucky for us our heavy hitters tend to be quantity over quality but still. Those planes are even stronger now
Hope we have some shiny toys to come
I could see another character, but apart from that we've already got Duneriders, Disintegrators and the Manipulus to go into a new book. And that's ignoring the technoarcheologist Daedalosus.
We don't even know why they're called Disintegrators yet, despite some variants seeming to only have solid shot weapons.
Well, the energy mortar is a microwave laser of some sort?
I still have no idea what to bring to my next Major with all these OP Iron Hands lists floating around. They just have so many buffs. Any crappy Space Marine unit becomes tier 1 once you put them in an IH army. Lol.
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Total: [138 PL, 8CP, 1,989pts] ++
Was very niceagainst IH we needed to stop after 3rd round because he needed to go and he won but he said if we had played the full 6 round he had lost
Against chaos it was a 23-24 for him with 3 models left and a few mistakes of me, that cost me the win^^ )i only lost the 4 robots and a pair of single skitarri and kataphrons)
In both games i failed with secondarys, rly need to fix this =P
I rly rly like the list but i recognized that i am freaky not mobile XD (and i dont have duneriders or the drill) so i decided to maybe switch to following:
Kastelan Robots [18 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Total: [140 PL, 8CP, 1,999pts] ++
What do you think? i guess 3 Bots are enough beacuse i trade 18 shoots for 50 shots from the infils, the stratagem for +1 to hit i did not need both games beacuse of cawl, so i decided to kick the dominus and get the points for the infils and in both games - 8 CP are more then enough
Suzuteo wrote: Nothing. We'll probably get something after?
By the way, the Top 8 at the first GT since Iron Hands became legal are all Iron Hands. (Some are listed as Adeptus Astartes, but they're also pretty much Iron Hands.)
So yeah, not an exaggeration to say that the only thing you should be prepping for is Iron Hands.
Unless GW hot fixes them in their FAQ, which is overdue.
More details, most successful lists ran:
- 2x Mortis Dreadnoughts with Lascannons, buffed by March of Ancients
- 3x Stormtalon with Typhoons, sometimes with Stormhawks
- Assault Centurions
Repulsors seem rare. The invincible Dreadnoughts taking preference. Levis nowhere in sight. TFCs seem to be in moderate quantity.
One Eldar broke into the first page. But still 90% IH. It's bad out there.
To add to list: the top list ran IH successor with the old salamander trait and counting as being in cover when over 12".
But I think it's actually good that we see Stormtalons and not Repulsors as we can deal better with them.
Those talons are just T6 IIRC and there is a pretty good answer in our arsenal for this :p
More problematic is how to deal with those Centurions that prevent us from engaging the Dreads.
@Hesselhof
The math says 4 Dakkabots. On average dice, you take out an Executioner while rooted. In a list built around 2-3x Executioners, that is a very big blow. You can also just clear an entire Stormtalon detachment. If you go second and they killed 1-2 Robots, you can still wipe all of his infantry and Warsuits off the board and play objectives; keep your guys alive as long as possible and go the distance.
@lash92
Dakkabots ask: What cover?
I feel like nothing in IH is as straightforward as it seems. But yes, I mentioned this before, but even the old 2-3x Crawler + 3x Grator lists can successfully handle Stormtalon spam.
As for Centurions:
Sort of like Disco Lords, the solution is to not fight them at all. They have a crapton of Flamer and Bolter shots, not to mention they wreck vehicles in CC. (Not to mention, they have a melee weapon almost tailor made to kill Kataphrons.) So keep your distance until you can shoot them off the board. It's not hard since we have a lot of really strong S6 shooting; though I suppose target selection can be tough. Furthermore, I think Scouts are way more annoying to deny you assault.
On a side note, both WS and the rumored IF Assault Centurions are going to be way scarier than IH Assault Centurions. The former being very mobile and aggressive and the latter just smashing vehicles left and right. I might actually reconsider my Dragoons in light of IF Devastator Doctrines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, best AdMech at BFS was #21 with a respectable 4-2:
So you mean, in my case the 4th bot is much important than the 10 infils?
Yeah. They compete for the same stratagem anyway. Robots usually have a really heavy turn two and three, the turns you also want to drop Infiltrators.
Iago40k wrote:So we scratch kataphrons and going for cawl spearhead and some stygies melee?
That's what I am thinking. 4 Robots, 3 Grators backed by Stygies boat spam--or something like that. Which sucks because I have been gradually increasing my Breacher count for months.
But I think the best idea is to play the board while the opponent is forced to deal with our alpha strike. Any pure objectives strategy is doomed to fail. Any pure alpha strike strategy is extremely inconsistent.
With all the rerolls and the IF doctrine buff I am considering not using stygies and dragoons anymore. They don't help us in the SM match up at all (no infiltrating cause warsuits, infis and scouts). Mars is to much of a castle so we are building a list with a cohort in mind. 3x2 dakkabots, grators, icarus, Mars infis and hoplits. Dragoons are out, it's bots and boats, maybe all lucius.
Yeah, every IH list I run into has the choppy Scouts out front to help their Smash Captain or Assault Centurions get stuck in. And IF is going to be popular because it's one of the only armies that can counter IH; they counter us too.
3x2 Dakkabots? Maybe 2x3. Two Dakkabots don't do very much work.
Not sure about Infiltrators. Hoplites look good though, mostly from a numerical perspective. 4++ in melee with high body count with S6 weapon, all for 9 points apiece make them a good way to tie down Assault Centurions; with Acquisition, they pretty much have Storm Shields. Going S7 with the Canticle plus Arc rule lets them kill Warsuits as well.
On that point, Electro-Priests also look good. S5 and mortal spam really lets them gobble up Space Marine bodies.
Thing is, running Robots, Grators, and Boats mean we give up 8 points to kill secondaries every game. Going to be very brutal.
3x2 works great since the dmg is the same as 2x3, yet they are more mobile.
I don't think secondaries are an argument during list building atm. We need to kill and to survive.
Electro priests are something to think about as well. They need a boat as well then.
So you mean, in my case the 4th bot is much important than the 10 infils?
Yeah. They compete for the same stratagem anyway. Robots usually have a really heavy turn two and three, the turns you also want to drop Infiltrators.
What do you think about the rest of the list? The breachers and the destroyers worked pretty well (just bought last week 3 boxes breachers lol) and with all the snipers made my opponet headache for moving^^
Problem could be flyer lists, but with elimination volley + Daedalosus and cawl, should work
So you mean, in my case the 4th bot is much important than the 10 infils?
Yeah. They compete for the same stratagem anyway. Robots usually have a really heavy turn two and three, the turns you also want to drop Infiltrators.
What do you think about the rest of the list? The breachers and the destroyers worked pretty well (just bought last week 3 boxes breachers lol) and with all the snipers made my opponet headache for moving^^
Problem could be flyer lists, but with elimination volley + Daedalosus and cawl, should work
I sense that Kataphrons will go the way of the Dodo tbh. MAYBE Lucius Breachers so you can hold them back. Still wounding everthing we want to see dead on 5s though.
Breachers were strong in a meta dominated by T3 infantry being cleared by S4 shooting. Now we are in a meta dominated by T4-5 W2-3 infantry being cleared by S5-6 AP-2 shooting. In other words, Breachers are average toughness now. With their mediocre shooting and fighting, it doesn't make sense to run so many of them because they cannot just sit in the midboard ontop of objectives like they used to.
Suzuteo wrote: Breachers were strong in a meta dominated by T3 infantry being cleared by S4 shooting. Now we are in a meta dominated by T4-5 W2-3 infantry being cleared by S5-6 AP-2 shooting. In other words, Breachers are average toughness now. With their mediocre shooting and fighting, it doesn't make sense to run so many of them because they cannot just sit in the midboard ontop of objectives like they used to.
basically, Breacher shooting is great against infantry...yet, they dont have that many shots. I would love to use them, i got 15 freaking kataphrons but its not their time anymore.
Hesselhof wrote: Hmmm ok, but you guys visit much more tourneys then i do =/
Think i have no other choice else to take the list I posted and make the best of it =)
atm its somewhat speculation on my end since I didn't face SM at a tournament yet. But there were a lot of them at the North Wst GT in Bremen and a lot of IH lists placed very well last weekend all over the planet. At this point, our list building is: Do I have a chance with this vs IH/SM? if "no" then build a new list. If "yes" you can go through the other matchups. everyone and their mother plays SM so we need to prepare for them as well as we can. all of them, not only IH. Its just that SM limits us extremely. Stygies is almost worthless since they have rerolls everything and they put 3 warsuits in your face so you cant infiltrate. And IF will be the death to Dragoons.
duneriders i will buy in future, so as hoplites, otherwise i use my fulgurites, but atm my wife will kill me if i buy more, bought as said 3 boxes kataphrons last week XD.
duneriders i will buy in future, so as hoplites, otherwise i use my fulgurites, but atm my wife will kill me if i buy more, bought as said 3 boxes kataphrons last week XD.
I only can bring what i own^^
Sure thing but atm we need to think without limitations^^
The rob palmer boat list wont do scratch against SMbtw.
I'm going to stick with the Kataphrons for the moment, my local tourney scene runs ETC rules and usually prohibits forgeworld so hopelites are out the window and its not super Meta chasey
I'm also not hardcore enough to be chasing the meta while the suppliments are still being released and before a IHfaq so I'll im going to hold fire an wait for AdMech codex V2 or supplement. Its got to be soon after all the SM stuff surley.
Agamembar wrote: I'm going to stick with the Kataphrons for the moment, my local tourney scene runs ETC rules and usually prohibits forgeworld so hopelites are out the window and its not super Meta chasey
I'm also not hardcore enough to be chasing the meta while the suppliments are still being released and before a IHfaq so I'll im going to hold fire an wait for AdMech codex V2 or supplement. Its got to be soon after all the SM stuff surley.
Well dont get your hopes too high. rumors tell that we will got something with psychic awakening but that there will be no updated codex in the forseeable future.
its not really "hardcore" to chase the meta. Thing is, if you have a tournament within the next month you need to adapt or accept that you will get rofl-stomped by SM left and right.
Agamembar wrote: I'm going to stick with the Kataphrons for the moment, my local tourney scene runs ETC rules and usually prohibits forgeworld so hopelites are out the window and its not super Meta chasey
I'm also not hardcore enough to be chasing the meta while the suppliments are still being released and before a IHfaq so I'll im going to hold fire an wait for AdMech codex V2 or supplement. Its got to be soon after all the SM stuff surley.
Well dont get your hopes too high. rumors tell that we will got something with psychic awakening but that there will be no updated codex in the forseeable future.
its not really "hardcore" to chase the meta. Thing is, if you have a tournament within the next month you need to adapt or accept that you will get rofl-stomped by SM left and right.
And yet thats just what Aeldari are getting.
Incidentally, do we know if Alaitoc lost their -1 to hit craftworld thing? If they did there's a non-zero chance that they may be releasing the mini codex updates for all the armies that had this -1 faction ability to get them off the scene.
@ Agamembar
You could just substitute Hoplites with Electro Priests if you have those models
@ Octovol
The OG Craftworld traits are not touched by this book. You can just make your own Craftworld and choose from 1-2 traits.
So we still have to deal with Alaitoc flyer spam.
lash92 wrote: @ Agamembar
You could just substitute Hoplites with Electro Priests if you have those models
I do have 20 of them from back in the old Stygies infiltrate strat days, just need the boats I think for them or make the Lucius and deepstrike them in.
Just one question, because i do canticles like this, with mars always role two dice. if i play stygies i select.
Can i if i play mars, and turn one, i choose shroud psalm and turn 2 i roll two dice? never did this before but is this possible? To choose one turn and the other turn roll two dice for the same song?
Hesselhof wrote: Just one question, because i do canticles like this, with mars always role two dice. if i play stygies i select.
Can i if i play mars, and turn one, i choose shroud psalm and turn 2 i roll two dice? never did this before but is this possible? To choose one turn and the other turn roll two dice for the same song?
Yeah you can, each turn you can pick one you haven't used or roll and get one you have used already. Many a game I would choose for the first turn and then roll the rest of the game
Yeah i literally just learned thats how it works and massively improved my game.
T1 is almost always shroud for me, exception being if im in cover as it is anyway and the only thing i expect to get shot would be reduced to invul anyway (crawlers)
Dont forget you can also spend 2cp to pick it again later on if needed.
But if i choose one and play mars its only one song, right? Thats pretty cool =) so turn 2 with mars with 2 dice and cawl the chance to get psalm again is nice
How can i argue that this works like this, if somebody say: hey the rules say choose or roll not both?
Ahh and other scenario: if i roll turn 1 and want to choose turn 2 it cant be same song from tunr 1?
I mean technically the Mars forgeworld trait making you roll two dice overrides the book rule so i would be tempted to say you get to pick 2 when you choose as your rolling 2 dice for your choices when you decide to roll.
Maybe I'm reaching a bit with that one.
Yes, if you choose Shroudpsalm T1 you can't select that as a non-rolled cantical for the rest of the battle without using one of the canticle startegems, the rules in the codex make a point of saying that if you roll say the same canicle multiple times then you are free to use it however many time you roll it.
Agamembar wrote: I mean technically the Mars forgeworld trait making you roll two dice overrides the book rule so i would be tempted to say you get to pick 2 when you choose as your rolling 2 dice for your choices when you decide to roll.
Maybe I'm reaching a bit with that one.
Yes, if you choose Shroudpsalm T1 you can't select that as a non-rolled cantical for the rest of the battle without using one of the canticle startegems, the rules in the codex make a point of saying that if you roll say the same canicle multiple times then you are free to use it however many time you roll it.
The mars dogma explicitely says "when rolling for canticles, roll 2 dice instead of one" so its either you pick one canticle or you roll for two.
Agamembar wrote: I mean technically the Mars forgeworld trait making you roll two dice overrides the book rule so i would be tempted to say you get to pick 2 when you choose as your rolling 2 dice for your choices when you decide to roll.
Maybe I'm reaching a bit with that one.
Yes, if you choose Shroudpsalm T1 you can't select that as a non-rolled cantical for the rest of the battle without using one of the canticle startegems, the rules in the codex make a point of saying that if you roll say the same canicle multiple times then you are free to use it however many time you roll it.
The mars dogma explicitely says "when rolling for canticles, roll 2 dice instead of one" so its either you pick one canticle or you roll for two.
Ah never mind then, haha, forgot the wording of the rule.
In my opinion, if your Kastelan has not made its points back by the time it has been tagged, you have been playing poorly.
My concern is whether or not the hammer and anvil concept still works. If I bring Dragoons, Hoplites, or Priests, what sorts of lists will just vomit Scouts and Warsuits all over the board and shoot my Robots, knowing I cannot get my melee in their face by turn one?
Tagging is one issue. Being immobile to rack those points up is a different thing altogether. Im concerned they wont last.
I ran dragoons vs an RG list the other week and my fears were confirmed when sheer weight of dice with CM rerolls was enough to bypass the hit modifiers too easily.
I dont play ITC and im concerned our answers are just short of being good enough without worryimg about handing out secondaries.
Triple icarus triple belleros breacher line is a pretty good baseline for the flyer lists. The warsuits are annoying to say the least. I ran a bike captain detachment and swooping dive absolutely neutered it which was useful for protecting the gunline.
Why do they need to be mobile? Dakkabots are very good at static defense. They control a 42" bubble around them once rooted. This makes it easy to deliver fire support as needed for your objective grabbers and control movement on the board. Yes, there may be LOS issues, but if we have LOS issues, they do as well. In fact, I daresay we have a huge advantage, since Dreadnoughts and Centurions are slowwww, Repulsors can only move 5" before they give up their Grinding Advance, and Stormtalons, while they hit hard, can't really take hits. Meanwhile, we can turn our guns into Assault and run and gun; play ring-around-the-ruins and kill bikes, suits, and infantry (smart use of Robots is to avoid rooting them until you are sure of the payoff), secure objectives, etc.
It is annoying how everyone pretty much hits on 4s rerolling all against our Dragoons. I mean, that was supposed to be OUR thing.
Not sure if 3x Crawler is wise anymore. IH tanks have much more mass and toughness than other flying vehicles. Double Crawler at most, but I think 4x Dakkabots and 3x Grators is the way forward.
I would advise against Crawlers tbh. Sure the missle is not bad against Stormtalons, but the autocanons are pretty useless due to Ironstone, especially when taking things lime Stealthy trait into account.
Sure Grators are also bad against flyers but they are much more useful in general. E.g. bombarding hiding scouts which deny you shooting on character Dreads.
I would take 3 Grators over 3 Crawlers every day.
It's not crators vs. Crawlers. You ALWAYS take 3 grators. Yet the question is if crawlers are worth it. Maybe grators and bots are the way.
So, we talked about stygies being not worth it anymore. Yet I think dragoons became useless but stygies did not. Why? Because sm need to castle for all their rerolls (seal of oath is another buggy) . Which is not that hard when your main target runs at you. But if we play several swooshy units that make SM move, the - 1 helps again. Working on it.
But if you look at the tourney results, you will note that the castle lists did poorly. I think those can be played around. It's the competitive lists featuring character Mortis Dreads combined with Stormtalons, Assault Centurions, and TFCs that did the best. Basically, non-interactable artillery, a counter-charger, non-LOS artillery, and high mobility units. all with stacked Heavy weapon buffs and durability bonuses.
So I don't think we need to prep for 3x Repulsors as much as I had thought. Maybe 2x Repulsors at worst.
Plus, my next Major has the new ITC rule in effect. Repulsors won't be allowed to climb buildings, so it should be easier to hide from them on turn one.
Suzuteo wrote: But if you look at the tourney results, you will note that the castle lists did poorly. I think those can be played around. It's the competitive lists featuring character Mortis Dreads combined with Stormtalons, Assault Centurions, and TFCs that did the best. Basically, non-interactable artillery, a counter-charger, non-LOS artillery, and high mobility units. all with stacked Heavy weapon buffs and durability bonuses.
So I don't think we need to prep for 3x Repulsors as much as I had thought. Maybe 2x Repulsors at worst.
Plus, my next Major has the new ITC rule in effect. Repulsors won't be allowed to climb buildings, so it should be easier to hide from them on turn one.
which supports my case. Stygies will still be viable since not all units will hold auras and we can hide. yet, dragoons can not. Kicking those out of my lists as well as the onagers and kataphrons...shelf fills up rather quick atm.
Octovol wrote: Incidentally, do we know if Alaitoc lost their -1 to hit craftworld thing? If they did there's a non-zero chance that they may be releasing the mini codex updates for all the armies that had this -1 faction ability to get them off the scene.
Maybe. Or raven guard just stays raven guard and -1 to hit isn't universally touched. That's the thing with these bespoken rules. Everything can have different rules even with same name for rule! When ork codex came out people thought for sure that plasma overcharge becomes standardised ala ork codex. Nope. Didn't happen either.
Mars Vanguard
Daedalosus
Hoplits
Hoplits
9 Infiltrator (Mars)
1996 pts
Switching the Vanguard for Rangers would net me another infiltrator...which sounds horrible Did not decide yet whether its 23x3 dakkabots or 3x2. I lean to 3x2 for mobility, yet the CP cost would be outrageous^^
But would be wrath of mars not be better on the dakka bots?
Stygies bots are kinda wasted shots with only reroll 1 in my opinion =/
Lots of people think its only viable to play them in mars. And I disagree. Yes, their output excells with mars but you need to take a detachment with a weak trait and you need to take cawl, which costs a lot of points. Plus, you want the manipulus as part of that detachment as well. A lot of your army is set in stone with a pretty much immovable firebase, since you want to get the most from the buffs you paid for. Against Space Marines and their warsuits plus scouts and infiltrators, we need a way to push out of the deployment zone. a Mars firebase wont help a lot I am afraid.
Since I dont have dragoons in that list anymore, the dakkabots will move a lot, and they will seperate from each other so they will not hold buffauras.
Of course only testing will help.
@Iago40k
I recommend you look at the BFS GT results. IH aren't investing in reroll auras. They are using the army-wide RR1 for Heavy weapons while Devastator is active, plus the ignore penalties to move, plus the additional AP to create mobile deathballs bristling with Heavy weapons. (Though I guess they can always just use the 2 CP stratagem if they see a ton of Dragoons.)
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
I recommend you look at the BFS GT results. IH aren't investing in reroll auras. They are using the army-wide RR1 for Heavy weapons while Devastator is active, plus the ignore penalties to move, plus the additional AP to create mobile deathballs bristling with Heavy weapons. (Though I guess they can always just use the 2 CP stratagem if they see a ton of Dragoons.)
Cheers mate. This is still a strong case to leave dragoons at home since they will simply die. And for Stygies since there are less rerolls (at the moment!).
But it is NOT only IH, there are several other Space Marines as well. IF alone delete dragoons as soon as they touch the battlefield. Marines lists are, and I hate to say this, at their worst atm. They will only get better each weekend. But we already know that certain units wont even work right now so why bother.
Questions is, what to take and why to take things. so, going back to the list I posted: any ideas for tweaking?
Im not dropping icarus arrays with the flyer problem. You have two meta lists packed with them and a ton of other armies running ample <FLY>.
If anything, might swap the tasers for ACs and run a pack of ironstriders to compliment the belleros pushing wide.
They are great for declaring an objective their own, contribute and support the style of the list better anyway.
@Suzuteo
Maybe I am looking at them too offensively re; dakkabots. I dont tend to root until t2/3 anyway. I think that providing I have alternative win conditions, dakkabots can be great. To Battlescribe once more....
As an aside, I am actually quite mad that IH Stormtalon is flavor of the month. They were always some of my favorite models. Maybe they get nerfed before the week is out, and people will dump their kits on eBay.
@Iago40k
My list submission for an upcoming Major is due Sunday night. I expected to get wrecked, but might as well put on a brave face. (Assuming no one wants to take this ticket off my hands...)
Anyhow, It's probably going to be 4x Dakkabot, 3x Grator, 3x Boats. But I am wondering if the Boats will carry Hoplites or just my regular Skitarii for objective secured. If the latter, I have spare points.
How about a Krast Crusader? Headsman's Mark to counteract Ironstone. Draws anti-tank like nothing else. Downside is that if I do run into that 3x Repulsor list, if this Knight doesn't shoot first, it may never shoot at all...
@IronVaught
My point is that with Daedalosus and Cawl, your Dakkabots can pop flyers while running and gunning too.
Doubling down on Autocannons is... brave.
I always find that people are too eager to root the Dakkabots. I usually maneuver them into a good spot on T1 and root them on T2 or T3.
Might run this in a couple of practice games. If only my friends were more brutal. Everybody is too proud to run Iron Hands in our group.
Dont see kataphrons in this meta. They die way too easily against marines. The same with Ironstriders. Unplayable as soon as IF hit the table. Plus the damage on both units is weak against SM. Breacher are still a great screeinng unit for every other matchup and against that warsuits, but hoplits can do the same.
I guess a knight just depends on what will be the real SM hotness. With the stupid executioner the knight is not a good choice.
@Hesselhof
the secutarii go into the stygies boats. dont have to be in the same detachment and secutarii can use any forgeworld transport, might as well take one that can infiltrate.
Ahhh my fault, i ignored the hoplite rules, my mistake sorry
I know you guys think breachers are out ^^ but i need to play like this, i guess this is my final list for tourney on 02.11.
(if the T3 notice is correct, only 5 Space Marine players from 24) nect test game this saturday again against chaos with knights and 60 plage bearer
Kastelan Robots [24 PL, 440pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Only dominus can take master of biosplicing i believe.
Whats with all the bot resurgence? I get vs the IH matchup they are decent but they were dropped in nearly all lists vs any other matchup for a reason or have i completly missed the point lol
Finally played a game against these new Marines, a 2v2 1500 pts each player, I was playing with my AdMech and a Chaos mate, against a team of Ultras and IF.
Well this game has become very disgusting.
Basically Agressors + IF Centurions full of bolters kills anything through sheer volume of fire, my Dragoons died to the Centurions and the Agressors killed 27 of the 30 Bloodletters bomb with the Auspex Scan.
Don't want to play this mess of a game until it gets fixed, good luck to you all to try to stay competitive in this meta.
Aaranis wrote: Finally played a game against these new Marines, a 2v2 1500 pts each player, I was playing with my AdMech and a Chaos mate, against a team of Ultras and IF.
Well this game has become very disgusting.
Basically Agressors + IF Centurions full of bolters kills anything through sheer volume of fire, my Dragoons died to the Centurions and the Agressors killed 27 of the 30 Bloodletters bomb with the Auspex Scan.
Don't want to play this mess of a game until it gets fixed, good luck to you all to try to stay competitive in this meta.
yea, same here. the marine update has completely turned me off competitive warhammer, ill be playing strictly casual/killteam
Dont see kataphrons in this meta. They die way too easily against marines. The same with Ironstriders. Unplayable as soon as IF hit the table. Plus the damage on both units is weak against SM. Breacher are still a great screeinng unit for every other matchup and against that warsuits, but hoplits can do the same.
I guess a knight just depends on what will be the real SM hotness. With the stupid executioner the knight is not a good choice.
Think this is a little much. Unplayable and 'dies too easily' are quite extreme for 30point T5 3W 2+ troop choices.
Are you suggesting we spam skitarii for the cp we need and accept they are a tax and spam t7+ to outrank the AC spam?
Its possibly the way forward.
RXs are good. If they move less than 5" they get to shoot a neutron laser 4 times. Its good but its not world ending on a 4++ 24w body.
I think breachers are still very much going to be prevalent and we may see the bots back. The rest I dont know.
Envii wrote: Only dominus can take master of biosplicing i believe.
Whats with all the bot resurgence? I get vs the IH matchup they are decent but they were dropped in nearly all lists vs any other matchup for a reason or have i completly missed the point lol
A manipl character can take the trait, dominus is needed for the +1 to hit gem
Dont see kataphrons in this meta. They die way too easily against marines. The same with Ironstriders. Unplayable as soon as IF hit the table. Plus the damage on both units is weak against SM. Breacher are still a great screeinng unit for every other matchup and against that warsuits, but hoplits can do the same.
I guess a knight just depends on what will be the real SM hotness. With the stupid executioner the knight is not a good choice.
Think this is a little much. Unplayable and 'dies too easily' are quite extreme for 30point T5 3W 2+ troop choices.
Are you suggesting we spam skitarii for the cp we need and accept they are a tax and spam t7+ to outrank the AC spam?
Its possibly the way forward.
RXs are good. If they move less than 5" they get to shoot a neutron laser 4 times. Its good but its not world ending on a 4++ 24w body.
I think breachers are still very much going to be prevalent and we may see the bots back. The rest I dont know.
"dies too easily" is extreme? okay. Dies too easily and wont do damage against SM. better? I love my Breacher, I own flipping 15 of them, there is a reason I benched them for now. They still have a place but they are going to get worse every day. Why? because they get killed by marines (which is new) and they will get killed by everyone else (which is also rather new) since they have a Centurion chassis and people need to adapt and kill Centurions.
Balistarii: They are too fragile. They always have been but with SM and esp Imperial fists, they will just die. Just get a look at the winning lists from last weekend. All of them got several ways to deal with our Chickens, even with dragoons.
Now, i tested my last posted list against triple riptide and yvara (which would have roasted breachers with no problem) in borkan sept. Taus way to counter SM. Killed the last Riptides in turn 4 so it went well and T'au are still manageable, even with 2x3 Dakkabots and no Onager. yet, I was thinking about a large unit of dakkabots but that is soooo risky. Things like Seal of Oath just melt them.
Maybe. But that's spring faq earliest so don't hold up your breath. Of course with GW...They just buffed up already one of the best units in eldar codex. GW can just as easily buff broken stuff as nerf.
Maybe. But that's spring faq earliest so don't hold up your breath. Of course with GW...They just buffed up already one of the best units in eldar codex. GW can just as easily buff broken stuff as nerf.
What did they buff in the Eldar codex recently ? With the new Psychic Awakening rules ?
Maybe. But that's spring faq earliest so don't hold up your breath. Of course with GW...They just buffed up already one of the best units in eldar codex. GW can just as easily buff broken stuff as nerf.
What did they buff in the Eldar codex recently ? With the new Psychic Awakening rules ?
DR can benefit from increased range by 6", plus they can become snipers (in 18" from a target if I remember correctly).
Maybe. But that's spring faq earliest so don't hold up your breath. Of course with GW...They just buffed up already one of the best units in eldar codex. GW can just as easily buff broken stuff as nerf.
What did they buff in the Eldar codex recently ? With the new Psychic Awakening rules ?
Yes. There's buffs for some stuff. Most glaring one being for crimson hunter exarch. Already very popular model and hardly one that really needs a buff yet they got one.
Mars Vanguard
Daedalosus
Hoplits
Hoplits
9 Infiltrator (Mars)
1996 pts
Switching the Vanguard for Rangers would net me another infiltrator...which sounds horrible Did not decide yet whether its 23x3 dakkabots or 3x2. I lean to 3x2 for mobility, yet the CP cost would be outrageous^^
Interesting. So you bring Robots purely to kill IH infantry and bikes and try to win on objectives? But it begs the question: Why not bring them as Mars for the mortals? Or even Graia to shoot in CC? Stygies and T7 is durable, but any IH list can use that Chapter Master stratagem to get Cawl-style reroll all to hit rolls for their S8-9 anti-vehicle castle.
Still, a very innovative list.
I might try it with these slight tweaks:
Spoiler:
Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 960 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
Transport - 146 1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Lucius Vanguard Detachment - 360
HQ - 30 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Relic: The Solar Flare
Mars Vanguard
Daedalosus
Hoplits
Hoplits
9 Infiltrator (Mars)
1996 pts
Switching the Vanguard for Rangers would net me another infiltrator...which sounds horrible Did not decide yet whether its 23x3 dakkabots or 3x2. I lean to 3x2 for mobility, yet the CP cost would be outrageous^^
Interesting. So you bring Robots purely to kill IH infantry and bikes and try to win on objectives? But it begs the question: Why not bring them as Mars for the mortals? Or even Graia to shoot in CC? Stygies and T7 is durable, but any IH list can use that Chapter Master stratagem to get Cawl-style reroll all to hit rolls for their S8-9 anti-vehicle castle.
Still, a very innovative list.
I might try it with these slight tweaks:
Spoiler:
Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 960 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
Transport - 146 1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Lucius Vanguard Detachment - 360
HQ - 30 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Relic: The Solar Flare
Just testing the Corpuscarii. Not sure if they will be better than Infiltrators.
Stygies because it helps in any other match up. Lifesaver against T'au. Yes we have to deal with marines but there are still other armies out there. You can "infiltrate" one of the dakkabots units after you who got T1. If you start the game infiltrate them into position and move the other unit with the cohort stratagem. reliable shooting it is Mars on the other hand is not necessary for the bots. 3 Dakkabots dish out less mortal wounds even if stationary than a 10 men Infiltrator drop from Mars with doctrina strat. Which I got. And CP arent endless..sadly and that is also why i like them better than lucius priests. a lot of shots with WoM and build in drop. Gotta say, I am pretty happy with this one. next week its vs iron hands.
The fact that you could use it more than once was ridiculous, but I can't believe they let this cancer continue to spread. Guess they really do just want to sell models until Spring FAQ. Incredibly discouraging.
@Iago40k
True. Well argued. I will test and see. Let us know how your own test against Iron Hands goes.
decent nerfs, now to see if their super doctrine needs a nerf when the durability is diminished. I quite liked the "reroll 1's if stationary" that people were bringing up as a decent way to nerf it.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Stygies VIII Spearhead Detachment - 384
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 334 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launcher
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launcher
Yes. Because I expect most IH will now bring one Mortis Dreadnought, one Repulsor (maybe), and 6x flyers. With the usual Assault Centurions, Scouts, and TFCs.
Hesselhof wrote: How do you do the dmg with stygies dakka bots? Only with the pure mass of shots? Because "only" reroll 1s =/
Do you kick the infils?
The next things on my buying lists are, 2-3 Dunerider, 1x or 2x hoplites
yep, only rerolls of one. Its still a lot of shots. Of course you can wiff but that can happen with basically every unit. Up until now they did not disappoint me once. You give away output for input. If playing dakkabots in stygies i always try to squeeze in mars infis. they drop and the can do WoM. there is almost alwys something in the opponents list that needs to be brought down with mortals. and infis deliver them.
I am not sold on Icarus vs IH Flyers though. 2 Icarus barely kill one of them in a round of shooting. The word "barely" is something I dont like. BUt Ill give it a try.
I think two Icarus to kill one Stormtalon is a good ratio, actually.
My old list had 3x Crawler, 3x Grator, 2x Hoplites in Boats, and a deep strike package of Ryza Drill + Plasma, 10x Infiltrators, and an Assassin.
What does everyone think about Data-tethers on Hoplites though? I always had them to make them last a bit longer against bolters and such, as well as to get +2 to hit to hit on 2s while advancing. Thoughts?
Hey folks, picking up ad mech and wanted some general thoughts/perspective based on the experience of you veterans.
I'm planning on taking dakkabots, cawl, a gunboat (or drill) with plasma vanguard, and am wondering what the assesment is vs the following units in terms of melee defence/pressure
Electropriests in a boat
Stygies Dragoons
Breechers with arc claw
Mm... if you want to make a pure Mars army, Cawl, Dakkabots, 3x Boats, 3x Grators, and Fulgurites works well. Cyle Thompson ran a list like that, only with Crawlers instead of Dakkabots.
A cheap way to do 3x Boats and 3x Grators is to buy three Skorpius kits and three Rhino kits and convert them, as I have here:
This was a photo I sent a friend to show him how these conversions looked from multiple angles. Included a boat for comparison. They are the same width, minus the annoying pointy stubber bit. Added an antenna on the back to simulate the thruster fin dimensions.
Still need to finish painting these. I only had base coats on before this IH panic set in.
Yeah, nope, not doing Corpuscarii ever again. At least not as Lucius. Turns out Auspex Scan is pretty brutal. Your best bet is to put them inside a Drill and deep strike it in, then immediately deploy. I believe they can only shoot the Drill with Auspex Scan, as only the Drill is being set up as reinforcements, and the contents of the Drill are being set up immediately after by disembarking. Infiltrators seem dead too. Not many good targets against Space Marines now, since most of the worthwhile infantry targets can murder half of them before they shoot.
I actually also think this may apply to Fulgurites as well. 16 points each, but they die to volume fire very easily. And IH has plenty of that. You pretty much have to get them a kill, which might be feasible with so many Scouts, but even this is not a certainty. I think Hoplites is our best bet. Comparable durability, but only 9 points. No mortal wounds, but any damage is better than no damage; just getting them into CC is the challenge. And they are probably really going to shine against those Warsuits early on.
In general, IH is still really strong. All the nerfs did was reduce the number of Mortis Dreadnoughts that they could field. But even then, they're now going to bring one Repulsor each for the Ironstone to buff.
So I was thinking about Cyle Thompson's list, and I can sort of see the efficiencies from just concentrating everything into one Forgeworld and spam a ton of transports.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Total: 2000 points 14 CP
So you got six tanks parked around Cawl, maybe Manipulus as well. And you got a ton of infantry out in the field in 5 transports. There are only 14 drops here, which is crazy.
Self Sacrifice 2CP: Select an infantry unit. Until the end of that phase, enemies can't target any infantry units that are within 6 inches of the selected unit unless they themselves are the closest enemy unit to what is firing at them.
Basically you can make a chunk of your army invulnerable to being shot at. As it's not specified to be a <Salamander> <Infantry>, but just <Infantry>, you can run blobs of Electro Priests or Kataphrons completely immune to enemy fire! Use the strat on Salamander character, screen with forward deployed Scouts, and your blobs are now untargetable, just like the Salamander character himself. So the only question remains... who does fancy 60 Mars Corpuscarii with 180 S5 shots, with tesla on 5+, full rerolls from Cawl and wrath of mars?
I have a feeling that this might be FAQed, so I would hold still with purchases.
But tbh it would also save Ryzaphrons biggest weakness.
You also might wanna use things like Eliminators or Infiltrators as forwards screens as there are so many TFCs out there at the moment and those have no problem chewing through scouts.
@Ideasweasel
Will pure Knights and flyers even exist after Fists and Sala sweep through the meta? I feel like those two armies just bust gatekeeper-style lists wide open. I think you just have to diversify as time goes on.
@dadamowsky
The phrasing of that stratagem is immensely problematic. You should not be allowed to pick characters with that stratagem at all. It's just wayyy too much.
EDIT: Also, you made a very important omission: closest and VISIBLE.
2CP - Self-Sacrifice
Salamanders Stratagem
Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponent's Shooting phase. Select one Salamander's Infantry unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, enemy units cannot target any other Infantry units from your army that are within 6" of the selected unit, unless that unit is the closest enemy unit to the firing unit and visible to it.
Event still, you should not be allowed to pick characters.
Don't give up on Infiltrators yet. They have another profile which gives them an 18 inch Pistol 3 (4 0 1). You get 1 extra Strength and still 30 odd shots for Wrath of Mars. Also the Power sword will be hitting on S4 (5 with canticle) -3. Although less WoM, the profile is more dangerous to PEQ.
So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.
Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!
Don't give up on Infiltrators yet. They have another profile which gives them an 18 inch Pistol 3 (4 0 1). You get 1 extra Strength and still 30 odd shots for Wrath of Mars. Also the Power sword will be hitting on S4 (5 with canticle) -3. Although less WoM, the profile is more dangerous to PEQ.
The problem is that we have no reliable way to get those into CC after deepstriking. The point with the Pistol 5 loadout is to maximize their MW output, as we can´t rely on them making it into CC and they get killed by a stiff breeze in the opponents next turn.
Infiltrator Mow bomb is a unit that doesn't kill something alone but reliably helps. Usually it takes me 2 or half of t3 to kill all tau drones. Incoming infis kill off the rest of up until then hurten riptide and causing trouble in the zone of the opponent. They have done that several times now. Against t8 as well. If they get a charge in afterwards great. But they have done their job by mortal wounding and standing somewhere the opponent don't want them.
Rogerio134134 wrote: So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.
Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!
I highly suggest not really bothering converting the other specials.
If you're primarily building Vanguard, you'll want to be using the Plasma Calivers and maybe some Arc Rifles(I've had good luck with them, but they're not as great as they were previously)...and getting multiple boxes doesn't actually hurt just for the spare bits.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i have a strong suspicion that'll get faq'd to be salamanders only.
Otherwise it also works for protecting knights and that could lead to issues.
Isn't it INFANTRY only? Whole point of the strat is protecting allied infantry - can't see that changing, but making it non character makes sense (or making the defending unit a bodyguard style thing).
Gareth_Evans wrote: @Suzuteo
Don't give up on Infiltrators yet. They have another profile which gives them an 18 inch Pistol 3 (4 0 1). You get 1 extra Strength and still 30 odd shots for Wrath of Mars. Also the Power sword will be hitting on S4 (5 with canticle) -3. Although less WoM, the profile is more dangerous to PEQ.
I don't have magnetized Infiltrators. But at their price point, I don't think the Stubs and Power Swords are worth it anyway. I think I will be hoofing it in vehicles, Fists be damned.
Iago40k wrote: Infiltrator Mow bomb is a unit that doesn't kill something alone but reliably helps. Usually it takes me 2 or half of t3 to kill all tau drones. Incoming infis kill off the rest of up until then hurten riptide and causing trouble in the zone of the opponent. They have done that several times now. Against t8 as well. If they get a charge in afterwards great. But they have done their job by mortal wounding and standing somewhere the opponent don't want them.
Yeah. Infiltrators are still good against other matchups. Sigh. But they are so bad against Space Marines now. Really, I wonder if it's too far-fetched to put them into a transport...
Rogerio134134 wrote: So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.
Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!
Vanguard with Calivers and Rangers with Snipers are best. Sometimes, if you have spare points and models, Rangers with Arc Rifles work too, but generally, it's only the two aforementioned weapons.
Yeah. Infiltrators are still good against other matchups. Sigh. But they are so bad against Space Marines now. Really, I wonder if it's too far-fetched to put them into a transport...
Why do you think Infis are bad against SM? I mean yes, they are weak if they dont get into combat. But as stated, they have a mission, which is delivering mortal wounds. the rest is a bonus. if they cant help you as a drop unit you can always deploy them the usual way or put them in a boat. but i would just sit them on an objective then. Still 20 wounds to chew through.
Iago40k wrote: Why do you think Infis are bad against SM? I mean yes, they are weak if they dont get into combat. But as stated, they have a mission, which is delivering mortal wounds. the rest is a bonus. if they cant help you as a drop unit you can always deploy them the usual way or put them in a boat. but i would just sit them on an objective then. Still 20 wounds to chew through.
Because they obliterate them with with Bolt Rifles (or Heavy Bolters) and Auspex Scan? I honestly underestimated how deadly Bolters are in general with Space Marines. Really chewed through Corpuscarii on average dice. Infiltrators are even less durable.
Iago40k wrote: Why do you think Infis are bad against SM? I mean yes, they are weak if they dont get into combat. But as stated, they have a mission, which is delivering mortal wounds. the rest is a bonus. if they cant help you as a drop unit you can always deploy them the usual way or put them in a boat. but i would just sit them on an objective then. Still 20 wounds to chew through.
Because they obliterate them with with Bolt Rifles (or Heavy Bolters) and Auspex Scan? I honestly underestimated how deadly Bolters are in general with Space Marines. Really chewed through Corpuscarii on average dice. Infiltrators are even less durable.
Well that depends if he is in tactical doctrine when you drop or not. Sure Auspex Scan can happen, but most armies have a stratagem for intercepting so we are aware of that either way and they hit with -1 and have to be in 12 so basically you can choose who is able to auspex scan.
And as I said: of course they will get killed after they drop in. They are made to deliver roughly 8 Mortal Wounds if its desperatelly needed. Thats it.
Rogerio134134 wrote: So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.
Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!
Just a heads up - Vanguard cannot equip Galvanic Rifles. That’s a Ranger weapon. Vanguard use Radium Carbines by default and 2-3 can use special weapons (plasma calivers, arc rifles, or transonic arquebuses - the latter is terrible on them and the middle is merely ok, the plasma synergises best).
As for converting, I might save your arc for when you build rangers later (and use the plasmas from those later boxes and convert plasma upgrade packs sold on GW’s website for any extras you need).
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i have a strong suspicion that'll get faq'd to be salamanders only.
Otherwise it also works for protecting knights and that could lead to issues.
Since when knights are infantry? It works for infantry. Not vehicles. Not monsters.
But yeah hold up on purchases until FAQ. Now if you already have them go ahead and play around. Until FAQ comes totally legal.
My few cents into Infiltrators, especially after yesterday event - no more.
With the meta, at least in my local area, spamming a freaking lot of models (one of the opponents had 160 Catachan, the other 60 or 90), there's simply no point in fishing for DS pocket. The ony match they've been of any use DSing was vs Admech/3Knights, when Sicarians could drop on 2 Enginseers holding objective marker (both Mealstorm and Eternal). They've died however when one Crusader pointed an Avenger at them, so can't say they brung a lot of milestone. In other matches I had to utilise them as anti-charge units, dropping in my own deployment, to combat a sea of low cost infantry models. It's a pitty, as their melee weapon is quite decent actually - they just have very little chance to use it coming from DS.
I think I will switch them to either Corpuscarii to stregthen my Breachers castle with anti-charge options, or Dragoons for the same reason (and a bit of mid table harass).
Iago40k wrote: Well that depends if he is in tactical doctrine when you drop or not. Sure Auspex Scan can happen, but most armies have a stratagem for intercepting so we are aware of that either way and they hit with -1 and have to be in 12 so basically you can choose who is able to auspex scan.
And as I said: of course they will get killed after they drop in. They are made to deliver roughly 8 Mortal Wounds if its desperatelly needed. Thats it.
He does not need to be in Tactical Doctrine. They really put out a lot of dice. Be wary.
Well, if I don't land within 12", I don't get to shoot. So that really defeats the purpose, unless I am occupying a cleared objective or something.
Not most armies. Isn't it only Space Marines (Auspex Scan), Chaos (Prescience), and us (Infoslave Skull) that have this sort of thing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So let's do a ranking of our melee options at this point.
Hoplites - Cheap, kill vehicles, tar pit melee threats well
Vanguard - Cheap, synergize with other melee infantry
Fulgurites - Pricey, but prevent SM players from being able to deploy aggressively with Scouts
Eversor - Costs 2 CP, lacks mass, but really good at removing infantry characters and hordes
Dragoons - Force hits on 5+, wound on 5+, decent saves
Infiltrator - Pricey, but native DS, can put 8-9 mortals on targets consistently; vulnerable to Auspex Scan, no more durable than Vanguard
Corpuscarii - High-volume S5 shooting, but no native DS, killed easily
Rustalkers - No.
Eversor - dsing at 9", but charging on three dice. Sick melee potential
Callidus - short DS and decemt character hunting melee. And the utility is very handy
Fulgurites - for obvious reasons, strong assault choice punishing forward deployments
Breachers - mostly, because I have them in the list anyway, so their combat capability is an added value. Besides 3 attacks benefiting from both combat canticles, reliably cheap, 5++... They can actually stop BAs as my yesterday events proved me
Corpuscarii - loosing to Fulgus in pure melee output, winning on short range shooting. But they have a niche countering other assault lists due to enourmous weight of dice with S5
Skitarii - do nothing but screening and dying (at least in combat), but cheap enough to block enemy combat units
Dragoons - not as strong as once been, still a moderately resilient and definitely strong mid field harassment. Will loose horribly to the new warsuits though, and IFs... And marines overall
Fistelans - 6" DS strike is cool, but overall a poor option. Not nearly enough attacks for the 4+ hitting, no rerolls, limited tanking ability... and hefty price per model
Infiltrators - decent melee weapon on a very subpar platform, unable to be delivered consistently
Anything else
More of anything else
Ruststalkers
I don't have experience with Hoplites, so I can't rate them.
yeah, from my experience i would never rank infis that low, especially not if we have priests that need a ride or else they are only useful as counter charge unit. which infis do great. need to clear ork or Astra or Nid horde? well do it then.
@dada sorry but deepstriking a unit when your opponent has 160 footmen and claming the unit failed...well okay then.
@suzu why are fulgurites so far up in your ranking? prevent player from aggressively deploying? dont all of your melee units threaten to kill offensive deployed units?
I am not doing a ranking on my own, lets just say i keep taking hoplits and mars infis for the foreseeable future, because they do what they are supposed to do
@dada sorry but deepstriking a unit when your opponent has 160 footmen and claming the unit failed...well okay then.
Well... yes I do claim Infiltrator to be rather a weirdly designed unit. Clearing chaff is exactly what Infils should be good at. And while they can do it, there are two tiny problems IMO.
First of all - with how charges work, they can't reliably charge in from DS. Meaning their usefulness is limited to 5xunit_size 12" laspistol shots. The taser goad, while not bad as a weapon with S6 and tesla on 5+, is not worth the points about 60% of times. Failed charge means Sicarian models (or, depending where they landed, entire unit) being dead next turn to the equivalent of lasgun shooting.
Secondly... those pistols are 12" from 9" DS, meaning there's a high chance only a part of them will be in range. They can't stand counter fire - which is understandable for a relatively cheap T3 model; but it means they can't even land in a "safe" spot - as Ironstorm, anything getting LoS on them, or a typical HWTs simply shreds Sicarians to pieces. What is worse though, with the size of their bases, it is quite easy to screen all useful pockets so there're less and less places they can actually fall in the first place. Especially with loads of footsman Sicarians are supposed to harass.
So in the end - they can't reliably DS on objective, because it's very easy to screen it out. They can't efficiently harass T4+ targets (without WoM at least), because their best loadout is a laspistol. Their melee capabilities don't to come into play with every failed charge. And their best role currently is to be a WoM fire-and-forget nuke, for 2CPs and 180 pts, or a counter-charge in my own castle... so the role that any better melee, Admech has, can fill.
Maybe they are decent in the world of GW, where people don't play using conga lines, or bring mixed armies without spamming. Maybe they could've been decent if taken in 5 models squads (haven't tried that out TBH), or if Manipulus started with the +1" charge aura. I realy tried to like them - but they simply fail me in the vast majority of tries.
EDIT: Actually, why do you guys think Infiltrators are worth taking? How do you play them? I'll be very happy to be proved wrong, as that's another unit I would be able to utilise.
Iago40k wrote: yeah, from my experience i would never rank infis that low, especially not if we have priests that need a ride or else they are only useful as counter charge unit. which infis do great. need to clear ork or Astra or Nid horde? well do it then.
@dada sorry but deepstriking a unit when your opponent has 160 footmen and claming the unit failed...well okay then.
@suzu why are fulgurites so far up in your ranking? prevent player from aggressively deploying? dont all of your melee units threaten to kill offensive deployed units?
I am not doing a ranking on my own, lets just say i keep taking hoplits and mars infis for the foreseeable future, because they do what they are supposed to do
I used to rank Infiltrators higher when we faced more Gatekeeper lists. These Space Marine lists are infantry based and well-rounded.
Fulgurites especially punish Space Marines for using their Scouts and Warsuits. And once you get them onto an objective behind a Drill, they are hellishly hard to remove. Acquisition means they are minus 1 to hit, 2++/5+++.
Rankings are useful exercises. It tells people what we're prioritizing. I am thinking Boats and Drills full of infantry backed by some artillery now.
Suzuteo wrote: I am thinking Boats and Drills full of infantry backed by some artillery now.
that was the plan all along wasnt it?^^
still not sold on priests though. played them at the RTT were i became 2nd and they have been the one part that did not click.
though its good that there are several awys to go I reckon.
Id like to see some more rankings regarding topics like: troops, heavy HQ for example.
My take on Hqs:
Daedalosus, we seriously need a nickname for this guy, Daeda is enough I guess)
Enginseers
Manipulus
Cawl
Dominus
Heavy:
Disintegrator
Robots ( lower without cawl or Daeda + Destroyers + Dominus /mars/3+ robots)
Crawlers ( 1 higher for anti air)
Troops:
Rangers ( cheap and stygies nipers really useful for backfield and threatening squishy characters)
Vanguards (holding obj. , holding flanks and helping in melee, close with breachers but higher with their versatility like putting plasma in drill, survivability less dependent on matchup)
Breachers (midfield speedbump, holding obj.)
Destroyers ( die too fast and everyone knows they are scary, so really risky and board reliant)
Transport:
Skorpius ( really cheap wounds and blocker so we might not need as much melee)
Drill ( lower now that we have less deepstrike possibilities,so dont take too many)
0XFallen wrote: Id like to see some more rankings regarding topics like: troops, heavy HQ for example.
My take on Hqs:
Daedalosus, we seriously need a nickname for this guy, Daeda is enough I guess)
Enginseers
Manipulus
Cawl
Dominus
Heavy:
Disintegrator
Robots ( lower without cawl or Daeda + Destroyers + Dominus /mars/3+ robots)
Crawlers ( 1 higher for anti air)
Troops:
Rangers ( cheap and stygies nipers really useful for backfield and threatening squishy characters)
Vanguards (holding obj. , holding flanks and helping in melee, close with breachers but higher with their versatility like putting plasma in drill, survivability less dependent on matchup)
Breachers (midfield speedbump, holding obj.)
Destroyers ( die too fast and everyone knows they are scary, so really risky and board reliant)
Transport:
Skorpius ( really cheap wounds and blocker so we might not need as much melee)
Drill ( lower now that we have less deepstrike possibilities,so dont take too many)
perfect example why slot rankings are not viable.
Units are not taken in a vacuum, whether its your own list idea or you are tailoring against something. For example, if not playing Mars, you need to take the apparently worst hq choice. In a Mars army, dakkastelans are more important than grators, since they are taken for MoW and need to deliver. Also, if I have 111 points to spend. What do I take? 1 grator? 1 dakkastelan? 1 dunecrawler? Surely the crawler is the best choice in this case, isnt it?
Plus: what are these rankinks supposed to imply? If a more expensive choice is better I should make room for it?
Sorry but this is pretty misleading to newcomers. And won't help experienced players a lot.
We all rank things. When you boil the process of list-building down, we're all basically pursuing a material strategy of maximizing our value per point.
That being said, you have to do it right. For example, ranking things by slot is not a good idea, since the slot may be a part of their ranking--unless you really are just trying to fill the slot. In general, you want to rank units by comparable qualities with their specific synergies and unique characteristics in mind.
But really, what are the best melee options at this point against the SM Meta?
All his 24" limiter means is you need to move up a bit.
Against a gunline army, moving doesnt really hurt you.
Against a nongunline army the range isnt even a problem.
His only real issue is he cant really be used against the "ace target" for the enemy, which generally has 48" range or longer sitting in the corner. But given he costs 50pts he has to have some kind of drawback.
I dont see the point in putting him in a transport unless you want him to follow dakkapriests for some reason. Nothing worth having him around wants to be in a transport or moves that quick either. Quicker than him sure but not enough to be a problem.
I haven’t had much of a chance to test him out. Will have to see how he performs in a few games. My Admech stuff has mostly been complimenting my knights.
It’s a Dark timeline for most armies that aren’t marines. But hopefully Admech has a few tricks up its sleeve. I’m looking to get back into them
His pocket Smite is amazingly good. Don't forget about it. D3 mortals on any character within spitting range. He also has a strong pistol. Him and Manipulus have surprisingly good CC.
I have had no problems running him at all. I usually have no problems if there are no enemies at all within 30" of my gunline.
So you think that D3 heal or mortals ability is best spent as an attack? since its once per game and such a short friggen range i never expect to get it on the enemy.
@Vineheart01
What, you never end up in CC? Lots of threats can get within 12" on turn one. You can also just run up to a character or vehicle and Smite it.
Another thing. Do not forget to Dataspike with Cawl when fighting vehicles!
Typically, no not really. He tends to just get shot off the board rather than charged if hes threatened at all, as with any of my characters that manage to get their screeners cleared off.
Oh. Weird. In the past three tourneys I have been, I have had to fight with my HQs multiple times. But then again, I run Dakkabots, so my opponent is desperate to get into CC. Ignores my characters quite often, so I have to heroically intervene. (Fun fact: You can't charge after emergency disembark, but to my knowledge, you can still heroically intervene. So your Enginseer and Manipulus can actually move quite a distance after jumping out of a dead Boat.)
Heroic Intervene is not a charge. It also denies your enemy from even swinging at the character unless they declared a charge against him too and just didnt reach him, but reached the unit next to him.
I dont have my bots assembled yet so my characters are usually around crawlers. Less of an importance, the melee guys are usually after my knight stuff.
Dr. D. is just amazing. He brings so much to the table he is an auto-pick for me (unless for whatever reason I would have decided to run an assault army). He's very useful in making Dakkabots mobile - Dr. D, Manipulus (preferably with Static Psalm Code upgrade), and Strafing Fire Run, and your bots have 8" + d6" + 36" +2/6" (depending on the Bolster) of a threat range. If you're leaning out of a LoS break (or try to regain a distance from the chargers), and the target is 24" from Dr. D. (while he catches Kastelans in 6" aura) you have your initial BS of 4+ after Advancing.
His only downside - very very squishy. 4+ armor save and 5++ are punishing nowadays. Snipers are priority targets for Belleros, especially if snipers can fire without LoS...
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have been thinking about the anti-marine list, and I would be happy if you could throw a cent or two into my cogs.
To withstand the new Marines of any kind, especially when going second, I came up with only two solutions so far: to out-range or to hide. If hiding, then it's either a LoS break, or a DS. We can't control the tables however, unfavorable one (especially on the short deployment scenarios) can become very punishing. However, DS is something we can control.
There are two main components to this list: as many S5+ decent AP dice as possible, and Lucius. And by Lucius I don't mean the DS only - but Solar Flare and the dogma as well. Yes, I think Lucius dogma might actually be handy in the new meta upon us. Mostly due to a freaking lot of -1 bolter fire that we can see on the tables. While HBolters or HFlamers will be -2 in Deva Doctrine, I do shiver at the thought of Hurricane Bolter with -1AP barrage, with the Bolter Discipline, and Tactical Doctrine or AP improving stratagems.
9 Kataphrons in a single unit and 5 Dakkabots are exactly 1k points - meaning that's exactly the force possible to drop from DS in a 2k game. Both can be modified with a to hit chance - with the Dr. D, Noospheric or Elimination. Optimally, with all of them at once, but Dr. D. babysitting 3x Belleros is not a bad idea either (especially against the IH Fliers).
Battalion Stygies:
Manipulus (Necromechanic)
Enginseer
3x Tesco Rangers
3x Belleros
Battalion Lucius (or mixed):
Servitor Maniple
Dominus (Solar Flare)
Dedalousouwhateversous
6 Grav/Phosphor + 3 Plasma/Phosphor Kataphrons
2x Tesco Rangers (if mixed - Graia)
5x Dakkabots
1768pts (-5 for ETC, Transonic Manipulus cost is FAQ to 85)
10 CPs for the duration of the game (-2 DS, -1 Maniple). 242 (or 247 in ETC) points left for anti-chargers, switching Stygies troops to Breachers, adding Duneriders and more Troops, or whatever you like.
Admech are very much a strategy ranking if you wanna rank things.
Orks have a pretty standard ranking system for their units that only really has 2 units that shift around depending on the kulture (Lootas must be Bad Moonz and Shokk Jump Dragsta excells most at Deathskulls)
But Admech are mostly about synergies and stratagem shenanigans rather than individual unit power. Changing what auras are around them or what stratagems they have access to is MASSIVE for Admech.
@dadamowsky
My friend and I have both tried the Lucius Elimination Volley bomb. It's strong because you can drop 900-1000 points and erase a good chunk of their list. It's risky because it's almost impossible to form a good defensive screen to prevent being assaulted or deep struck yourself. You also cannot Strafing Fire Run.
But that was before Daedalosus. Maybe with him, we can make up for that -1 penalty to Dakkabot guns after deep-striking.
Really? where can i find this =) i play him always with flamer, but i thougt he is 90 points
Math it out on his datasheet. He is 90 pts with his stock weapon, which costs 5 pts. The Transonic cost 0 pts. so 85. But ask your local TO first. Some will go for the 90 pts ruling, some for 85.
Suzuteo wrote: @dadamowsky
My friend and I have both tried the Lucius Elimination Volley bomb. It's strong because you can drop 900-1000 points and erase a good chunk of their list. It's risky because it's almost impossible to form a good defensive screen to prevent being assaulted or deep struck yourself. You also cannot Strafing Fire Run.
But that was before Daedalosus. Maybe with him, we can make up for that -1 penalty to Dakkabot guns after deep-striking.
Im assuming to start from the table vs assault armies, and DS vs gunlines. Not much has left to screen though, but 240 pts being free might add some screen or counter charging ability. Or Breachers for versatility.
Yeah. I mean, the concept is not bad. I posted a list a few pages back about bringing a Bastion for much the same purpose. But giving up 2 CP and trading Mars for Lucius is also not bad given the prevalance of AP-1 shooting now.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. I mean, the concept is not bad. I posted a list a few pages back about bringing a Bastion for much the same purpose. But giving up 2 CP and trading Mars for Lucius is also not bad given the prevalance of AP-1 shooting now.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Heavy Support - 550 5x Kastelan Robot - 15x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Total: 1986 points 12 CP
Phosphor Blasters have surprisingly good math against a variety of targets now that Destroyers can get BS2 against a Daeda-marked target.
I was surprised as well, but even Kataphron Phosphors look really good in the ignoring cover S5 -1 and long-ish range. I loved my flamers, due to a lot of assault hordes in my meta, but the game has changed...
The second draft loses a few Destroyers for a 6th Dakkabot. Rest of the list is filled with Breachers and a few more Stygies Rangers to first layer screening, or securing deployment's flanks. 4 Dragoons would also fit in place of Breachers (but Breachers might be the screen I really need here). I'm putting Breachers in Lucius because it's the detachment that already is being upgraded to a Maniple - and Breachers can find 5++ fairly useful (vs knights, BAs and all the other high AP). Besides they can capitilise on Noospheric.
Lucius could work well in this meta. the key with anything DS is obviously board control which surprisingly may be possible now.
You could potentially make battalion 2 stygies and scout move the breachers forwards and use the 12" movement on the belleros tanks to create space turn 1 with lucius rangers / enginseer denying rear board entry. They would better weather T1 too potentially.
Lucious bomb drops down T2 or on board T1 depending on vs enemy alpha strike.
Alternatively you run the whole thing pure Lucius (which is fine) and manipulus boost the stygies forward for a T1 Advance for board control and advance HQ behind. The tanks dont really need it.
Lucius could work well in this meta. the key with anything DS is obviously board control which surprisingly may be possible now.
You could potentially make battalion 2 stygies and scout move the breachers forwards and use the 12" movement on the belleros tanks to create space turn 1 with lucius rangers / enginseer denying rear board entry. They would better weather T1 too potentially.
Lucious bomb drops down T2 or on board T1 depending on vs enemy alpha strike.
Alternatively you run the whole thing pure Lucius (which is fine) and manipulus boost the stygies forward for a T1 Advance for board control and advance HQ behind. The tanks dont really need it.
hmmm I feel like the thread is moving into weird places. its about 2 days ago where people were against a deepstriking unit of infiltrators because they are not able to deliver their load against several armies (Guard, Space Marines, etc..) and now we are back to Lucius armies...hmmm.
I am not a fan of that list to be honest. I dont like dropping plasmaphrons. They are too swingey and expensive and plain dead against any marine build in any doctrine. same goes for breachers. they had their place a couple of months ago but the get hurt bad by marines. But I already said so a couple of pages back. 12 Breachers wont do much in melee without rerolls. There is basically no counter charge unit.
I will also put a big BUT here. I am just not a fan of "i hope they kill everything they need to, otherwise its game over" lists. I dont think AdMech needs to be that army, since we have several options to play with. We are not Tau.
hmmm I feel like the thread is moving into weird places. its about 2 days ago where people were against a deepstriking unit of infiltrators because they are not able to deliver their load against several armies (Guard, Space Marines, etc..) and now we are back to Lucius armies...hmmm.
I am not a fan of that list to be honest. I dont like dropping plasmaphrons. They are too swingey and expensive and plain dead against any marine build in any doctrine. same goes for breachers. they had their place a couple of months ago but the get hurt bad by marines. But I already said so a couple of pages back. 12 Breachers wont do much in melee without rerolls. There is basically no counter charge unit.
I will also put a big BUT here. I am just not a fan of "i hope they kill everything they need to, otherwise its game over" lists. I dont think AdMech needs to be that army, since we have several options to play with. We are not Tau.
you treat kataphrons like chaos treats obliterators. you dont deepstrike them 9" away to assault, you deepstrike them 36" away to protect them from alpha strikes and hopefully get to turn the tide on turn 2.
Yeah deepstrike isnt solely to get as close as absolutely possible. Its also a protective measure and to get them in a position they probably wouldnt reach normally, such as on top of that tall building in the midfield that would probably take them 3 turns to hoof (tread?) it to. I outflank my deffkoptas as orks all the time mostly just so theyre safe from alphas and they can guarantee a shot on what i want them to hit. Im usually nowhere near my target except the 24" range limit of course. (being T5 you'd be surprised how many people want to shoot them first, since a lot of non-heavy weapons can reliably hurt them anyway)
There is quite substantial difference between Infiltrators and Dakkabots or Kataphrons - range. Infiltrators have S3 0 1 profile and have to be dropped 12" away to capitilise on killing chaff (or deal MWs to tougher targets). Gravs/Kastelans can be dropped 30/36" away with substantially better weapons to kill much tougher targets (including vehs). These two DS tactics are not really comparable IMO.
Especially that the Dakkabots/Kataphrons list might just as well start from the table in other Forgeworld - DS is more a survivability against alpha strike, than a "deep strike" itself. Sure, it gives up turn 1 shooting. But as SM will most likely bring all Fly and Infantry keywords, they can easily hide behind terrain, without really limiting their mobility. Unlike vehicles Dakkabots.
As for counter-charge, I am meditating Fulgurites instead of Breachers. Marines can forward deploy and lock any army in their starting zones (Stygies is of no help, as Infiltration movement can't end closer than 9" to any enemy model; it's happening after deployments anyway). But if Marine is foolish enough to give Fulgurites 3++ after an easy charge for the rest the game, that would actually be a win. What I don't like though in EPs are other matchups, where Breachers are actually more useful.
you treat kataphrons like chaos treats obliterators. you dont deepstrike them 9" away to assault, you deepstrike them 36" away to protect them from alpha strikes and hopefully get to turn the tide on turn 2.
Ehrm yes.that's not really news but thanks I guess.
You guys talk about flier spam lists yet want to drop units with these huge bases? And dakkabots? Starting them on the table.... Don't know about that though.
Not to mention Los issues.
The DS comparison is viable though. Infis drop in after you had to turns to clear a drop area. Putting dakkastelans and plasmaphrons into drop leaves you with nothing to clear an area and subpar drop zones.
Okay good, nuff said. Let's just wait till the first results are rolling in.
you treat kataphrons like chaos treats obliterators. you dont deepstrike them 9" away to assault, you deepstrike them 36" away to protect them from alpha strikes and hopefully get to turn the tide on turn 2.
Ehrm yes.that's not really news but thanks I guess.
You guys talk about flier spam lists yet want to drop units with these huge bases? And dakkabots?
Not to mention Los issues.
The DS comparison is comparable. Infis drop in after you had to turns to clear a drop area. Putting dakkastelans and plasmaphrons into drop leaves you with nothing to clear an area and subpar drop zones.
Okay good, nuff said. Let's just wait till the first results are rolling in.
This DS list is supposed to drop in my lines where I am able to secure myself enough place to drop those bases, not deep at the table; and provide viable shooting afterwards. That's precisely what Infiltrators are not supposed (or even able) to do, at least taken in Mars for MW. Besides... I don't have to use DS each and every time, or at lest not on everything each and every time. If there were 6+ Fliers and were able to screen out the area, I can opt out for a part, or all, of the DS components and use terrain whenever possible. In short - it's about options that come with increased range, better survivability etc.... in short - not being short range glass cannons. Which is why I don't consider these DSes even close to be compared.
Unprecedented threats call for unprecedented responses. Just like how we went from Cawlstar to Breacher spam to Crawlers and Grators, we need to figure out some way to handle this crazy SM meta. We have to figure out some way to protect ourselves from a strong shooting threat so we can clear them the following turn.
My reservation with running Dragoons in a list with this Lucius concept is that one primary reason for running them is to act as a Distraction Carnifex. But that is not really necessary if you are hiding your units in reserves. So they go from dying for a purpose to dying for no purpose. I think being very conservative on turn one and turtling with transports is preferable. Then bring the hammer down and sprint for objectives.
The problem with Infiltrators and Corpuscarii is that they deep strike into the 12" range of Auspex Scan. Dakkabots and Destroyers don't struggle with that. The base size is also not too big a problem, as you can DS them into your own deployment anyway.
Also, whether or not SM can kill Breachers is extremely important, since the reason why we took them was because it was hard for armies to kill them. If the most common and competitive armies in the meta can easily kill them, there is not a strong argument for running them anymore. Breachers were strong when people weren't stacking S5-6 weapons on everything to kill T4-5 targets. Now they are.
EDIT: So a lot of these concept lists run Stygies for the -1 to hit for the deployed detachments. But what about Graia? They can ignore death and failed morale on a 6, abhor Psychic powers, and the WLT lets them fight in CC. You can even give the Dominus the +1 CP Pimp Hat if you don't wanna run the Solar Flare; it means you will always be dropping into your deployment though.
@suzuteo Stygies is still worth it since it is okay against SM and excells against any other army. Graia works out great for mass skitarii, yet we always have a ton of vehicles with us that are just better with stygies.
As you stated Suzu, Kataphrons, regardless of Breachers or Destroyers, are just plain dead if any decent SM gunline takes aim at them. Heavy Bolter with -2 AP, Thunderfire cannons etc. etc. just widdle them down before mass bolterfire with all the rerolls come in.
@dadamowsky i am aware that you can drop (and probably will drop) in your own deployment zone. Against SM, I am just not sold that this is going to happen (Invictus war suits can even deny a drop into your zone in 4 out of 6 deployment maps). Starting them on the field on the other hand is dangerous since they will get evaporated. Usually we play a gunline fight against SM. The one that shoots better will win. Yet even if Plasdestroyers will get their dmg output, its still rather easy for SM to get back into the game since destroyers are what? right, easy to kill. And they fail in a lot of other match ups as well.
But I dont wanna be the guy thats just screaming that kataphrons are bad. Maybe they work out great. Looking forward to hear some tournament experiences in the future
My next major list is all ready to go so maybe i just want to hype myself up. Could be. Will tell you in the middle of november
I had a test Graia list, based on Emotionless Clarity gimmick, with loads of Skitarii and Kastelans going into combat deliberately. Can't hold vs Marines snipers (even Cawl folds to Eliminators), unfortunately. Graia itself was a fun, although swingy, dogma. In one match it saved me a lot of models, including two Dakkabots. In the other... Well, Skitarii were refusing to yield by the sheer number of them (had about 60), but it haven't made a real difference. Deny is always good, but I'm not going to build around it - a single deny on 4+ won't save me from the shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @lago Invictors are the problem, but also a reason why I want to bring 5 Skitarii squads. Layers of overlapping screening should help me hold the ground until I can destroy them. Either way, I'll report progress on the list
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Ahh ok your previous posted list, how does the list performed in test games? Tau you gave a short report
Or in other words did you played against Marines yet?
you treat kataphrons like chaos treats obliterators. you dont deepstrike them 9" away to assault, you deepstrike them 36" away to protect them from alpha strikes and hopefully get to turn the tide on turn 2.
Ehrm yes.that's not really news but thanks I guess.
You guys talk about flier spam lists yet want to drop units with these huge bases? And dakkabots? Starting them on the table.... Don't know about that though.
Not to mention Los issues.
The DS comparison is viable though. Infis drop in after you had to turns to clear a drop area. Putting dakkastelans and plasmaphrons into drop leaves you with nothing to clear an area and subpar drop zones.
Okay good, nuff said. Let's just wait till the first results are rolling in.
Think of Necron Destroyers as well when they're Nephrekh. The Deep Strike Strat is almost used solely for the protection.
Ahh ok your previous posted list, how does the list performed in test games? Tau you gave a short report
Or in other words did you played against Marines yet?
Versus Marines its who can roll the dice better. Played versus Iron Hands on pointy dawn of war and he had t1, yet I lost due to a crappy pile in on my end and bad dice. I know bad dice shouldnt be an excuse for a loss but in a gunline shoot off its all about dice rolls (20 hits with hoplites on invictor warsuits and i manage to roll 2 4 ups ..and that was not the worst of it all). Yet as stated the loss occured due to a messed up pile in. oh well wont happen again.
Its a game both can win, depends on the table layout and deployment zones, who goes first and who can come back after taking one round of shooting in.
I like the list, but can you explain me (cause i´m not this often on tourneys as you) where does the damage in your list come from? Your highest str is 7 on the onager
I like the list, but can you explain me (cause i´m not this often on tourneys as you) where does the damage in your list come from? Your highest str is 7 on the onager
Or simply the cadence?
well despite Plasmaphrons and Neuronagers there are not that many options we have for S8 or higher (and i dont like those options, esp since both options bring more random factors into the game). So its all about cadence and input dmg. Most of our weapons will wound on 5s against most enemy vehicles anyway, so why not take a lot of shots then? Sadly, we have very sparse options to buff our wounding.
So, theres a good amount of shooting. Now we need a counter charge unit that can also be our melee thread. In come the Hoplits (which also can serve as a nice screen if needed). Also we have the infiltrators if cadence in melee is needed. They can also drop in which is a great option plus they can WoM and therefore reliably put a dent into anything we need to.
I like the list, but can you explain me (cause i´m not this often on tourneys as you) where does the damage in your list come from? Your highest str is 7 on the onager
Or simply the cadence?
well despite Plasmaphrons and Neuronagers there are not that many options we have for S8 or higher (and i dont like those options, esp since both options bring more random factors into the game). So its all about cadence and input dmg. Most of our weapons will wound on 5s against most enemy vehicles anyway, so why not take a lot of shots then? Sadly, we have very sparse options to buff our wounding.
So, theres a good amount of shooting. Now we need a counter charge unit that can also be our melee thread. In come the Hoplits (which also can serve as a nice screen if needed). Also we have the infiltrators if cadence in melee is needed. They can also drop in which is a great option plus they can WoM and therefore reliably put a dent into anything we need to.
Not sold on Ferrumite cannons? 3 straight shots,S8, -3 , 3 damage? On paper seems better than neutronager and you get disruptor missiles and a load of stubbers for free comparatively.
I like the list, but can you explain me (cause i´m not this often on tourneys as you) where does the damage in your list come from? Your highest str is 7 on the onager
Or simply the cadence?
well despite Plasmaphrons and Neuronagers there are not that many options we have for S8 or higher (and i dont like those options, esp since both options bring more random factors into the game). So its all about cadence and input dmg. Most of our weapons will wound on 5s against most enemy vehicles anyway, so why not take a lot of shots then? Sadly, we have very sparse options to buff our wounding.
So, theres a good amount of shooting. Now we need a counter charge unit that can also be our melee thread. In come the Hoplits (which also can serve as a nice screen if needed). Also we have the infiltrators if cadence in melee is needed. They can also drop in which is a great option plus they can WoM and therefore reliably put a dent into anything we need to.
Not sold on Ferrumite cannons? 3 straight shots,S8, -3 , 3 damage? On paper seems better than neutronager and you get disruptor missiles and a load of stubbers for free comparatively.
Vs Executioners, Neutron is actually winning with Ferrumite (unless Exe is standing on the Skyshield for 5++), but the difference and damage is just so small - 4 dmg from the Neutron vs 3 from Ferrumite. If we had cheaper Lascannons than chickens then maybe... but as we are, I don't believe in our dedicated AT shooting either. The best from AT department we have are, well no surprise, Breachers or Ryzaphrons.
Playing some pre-SoCal Open matches today; I dropped out, but some people still going, and they want to play AdMech. I beat Iron Hands for the first time today.
Strangely enough, it was with this super vanilla list:
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Mars Battalion Detachment - 640 Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)
It's a variation on my list from the last GT. So... I guess there's something for playing the familiar? In fact, I was talking to my friend, and he said that when in doubt, it's always better to go with something you are familiar with, but with some minor tweaks. In this case, I cut my two Crawlers and brought 3x Duneriders to put all of my Skitarii into.
Quite frankly, I am sure that 90% of the Space Marine lists going to GTs and Majors this month have never been pitted against AdMech before. But we've been shooting at Marines for awhile now. They still die like they used to.
Do you guys probably know whats happend in Battlescribe? I cant fill in the 2cp assassin stratagem and cant select master of biosplicing, only i make the guy who take it is the "real" warlord
@Suzuteo - with that list how do you stop stuff tapping the robots? Say, warptimed Daemon Princes with Wings. If all your skitarii ate in boats.
I actually cane here to ask advice for a Cawlstar list, since I haven’t run one since mid-2018. I’m always hyper sensitive to melee threat against them since it was a first turn chargey Nids list that initially pushed me away from Mars. But I was thinking how many infantry should I be taking for layered screens (skitarii and hoplites), while your list doesn’t seem to screen at all? Or would you just not fill the boats against melee matchups and use them empty as speedbumps?
Testing a straight forward list next week. Got a pretty good feeling for Marines lists now. Question is if a heavy gunline can work against tau without stygies -1. therefore: its Cawl time.
Spoiler:
Mars Bat
Cawl
TPM
Rangers
Vanguard
Vanguard
Grator
Grator
Grator
Mars Bat, Cybernetica Cohort
Daeda
TPE
Rangers 2 Arq
Rangers 2 Arq
Rangers 1 Arq
4 Dakkabots
what I need you guys to do is how to figure out how I get 3 stygies transports in, because as it stands that list is illegal :-D
maybe I just take one Mars Transporter and 2 Stygies...
Iago40k wrote: Testing a straight forward list next week. Got a pretty good feeling for Marines lists now. Question is if a heavy gunline can work against tau without stygies -1. therefore: its Cawl time.
Spoiler:
Mars Bat
Cawl
TPM
Rangers
Vanguard
Vanguard
Grator
Grator
Grator
Mars Bat, Cybernetica Cohort
Daeda
TPE
Rangers 2 Arq
Rangers 2 Arq
Rangers 1 Arq
4 Dakkabots
what I need you guys to do is how to figure out how I get 3 stygies transports in, because as it stands that list is illegal :-D
maybe I just take one Mars Transporter and 2 Stygies...
Your list is legal as it is, you get to add 1 transport for each other unit in your detachment.
Iago40k wrote: Testing a straight forward list next week. Got a pretty good feeling for Marines lists now. Question is if a heavy gunline can work against tau without stygies -1. therefore: its Cawl time.
Spoiler:
Mars Bat
Cawl
TPM
Rangers
Vanguard
Vanguard
Grator
Grator
Grator
Mars Bat, Cybernetica Cohort
Daeda
TPE
Rangers 2 Arq
Rangers 2 Arq
Rangers 1 Arq
4 Dakkabots
what I need you guys to do is how to figure out how I get 3 stygies transports in, because as it stands that list is illegal :-D
maybe I just take one Mars Transporter and 2 Stygies...
Your list is legal as it is, you get to add 1 transport for each other unit in your detachment.
But hoplites don't have a forgeworld, which is afaik necessary to take a forgeworld, in this case stygies, transport.
@lago40k Check rulebook page 244. Vanguard detachments say nothing about chapters or forgeworlds when it comes to limits on dedicated transports. Just that you may include one transport for each other choice.
Pomguo wrote: @Suzuteo - with that list how do you stop stuff tapping the robots? Say, warptimed Daemon Princes with Wings. If all your skitarii ate in boats.
I actually cane here to ask advice for a Cawlstar list, since I haven’t run one since mid-2018. I’m always hyper sensitive to melee threat against them since it was a first turn chargey Nids list that initially pushed me away from Mars. But I was thinking how many infantry should I be taking for layered screens (skitarii and hoplites), while your list doesn’t seem to screen at all? Or would you just not fill the boats against melee matchups and use them empty as speedbumps?
Well, I was not planning on facing that sort of list (this was for some friendly matches to practice playing against Mars gunlines), but I would probably try to get some Graia in if I were. Though I am sure that I could just deploy more defensively or just shoot the Daemon Prince out of the sky. Really, it's Bloodletter Bombs that worry me. Have to just screen those out.
Don't worry so much about the melee threat. Make the Robots payoff in turns 1-3, and it doesn't matter if they tie them up. Have a counter-charger ready to hammer and anvil them, as the Robots are pretty tough to chew through.
I mean, here's me playing a 100% melee Space Wolves cavalry list at BAO:
I won by killing everything but his WL. He finally tied my Robots up on turn four with 6" Heroic Intervention. By then, he was trying NOT to kill them to avoid getting tabled.
dadamowsky wrote: Duneriders can transport 10 Secutarii - there's no problem.
that was not the question though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pomguo wrote: @lago40k Check rulebook page 244. Vanguard detachments say nothing about chapters or forgeworlds when it comes to limits on dedicated transports. Just that you may include one transport for each other choice.
So the list does away with a ton of taxes and is super minimalist; there are actually only 13 drops. There's also a pleasing symmetry to it.
Anyhow, you either put the Hoplites in the Drills to push up the board or you put the Vanguard in to deep strike them. Enginseers go into the Drills as well to reduce drops and to repair. You also have got some Infiltrators for more deep strike shenanigans.
Do you guys probably know whats happend in Battlescribe? I cant fill in the 2cp assassin stratagem and cant select master of biosplicing, only i make the guy who take it is the "real" warlord
The app is pretty fethed up right now.
The issue is not with the data, but the app itself - the latest release app release has a nurgling infestation.
We'll have to use the older version or wait till they get cleaned with holy Promethium from the owner of the app.
+ Heavy Support +
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
+ Dedicated Transport +
Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 73pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [38 PL, 589pts] ++
Forge World: Stygies VIII
+ Dedicated Transport +
Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 73pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 73pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 73pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [24 PL, 364pts] ++
Forge World: Mars
+ HQ +
Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 112pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 112pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler [7 PL, 110pts]: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Icarus Array
++ Total: [136 PL, 1,999pts] ++
I was talking to him in the lead up and was considering switching to Space Marines. But I'm glad he didn't. I actually think we have a small advantage in how obscure AdMech is; most Space Marine players are not well-practiced yet, and they may have never played a strong AdMech list before.
Anyhow, he fought 2x GSC and 3x Iron Hands and beat them all.
Salient features:
-Spam vehicles. Lots and lots of vehicles. Hard for anyone to deal with so many T6-7 wounds.
-Stygies Boats are MVP. Rush them down the board to ram and trap enemies to deny shooting while your Crawlers, Grators, and Calivers focus down other enemies. On defense, they make a strong wall and kill hordes.
-Plasma Calivers are very efficient against T4-7 enemies.
-He took one small unit of Breachers for body blocking; strangely enough, nobody shot at them because they were so preoccupied with the Boats. Take less than 8 to avoid giving up Gangbusters.
-Infiltrators to deliver mortal wounds on demand.
Well the ork vehicles at least i can run in those numbers are not worth their weight in teef Admechwise, working on that. Only got 3 crawlers, 1 grator, and 2 ironstriders atm. (ignoring knight half). Assembled/painted anyway, got 6 robots another grator and strider still in boxes.
